"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3e8ddebb014452d8a6a12a1326f56ee\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 27 JUNE 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223443a59f57b340dabbfa6e0bdb31e3d3\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 27 JUNE 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002257b676717df24a9db7015f791523be0d\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223788d931ce7f4d5fb91347ab3e856888\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002297110edb71084eb4b4bb9677f9277d44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297110edb71084eb4b4bb9677f9277d44\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2e2d865f7534732b9daf222537ae044\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002208c5850f79f14026ba9bae103c2cb5b5\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f929442bb91e4ab58c269c12d7f9e78e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f929442bb91e4ab58c269c12d7f9e78e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82c7ca189ba4b9db47e8a9bf1d7a0c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82c7ca189ba4b9db47e8a9bf1d7a0c3\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Hauraki Gulf Alliance requesting that the House ban all forms of mobile bottom-contact fishing in the Hauraki Gulf Marine Park.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022116e560809204fbab11849676ee5d481\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022116e560809204fbab11849676ee5d481\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00221e1d9a6946884119a6d34de906f52251\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e1d9a6946884119a6d34de906f52251\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-27 statement of intent for the Takeovers Panel\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-24 statements of performance expectations for the Financial Markets Authority, Southern Response Earthquake Services Ltd, and the Takeovers Panel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a15ab27a47cd4c479c4b3382d90346ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a15ab27a47cd4c479c4b3382d90346ea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the report of the Controller and Auditor-General entitled Meeting the needs of people affected by family violence and sexual violence. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2766b0324eb4ada8befa45b2df4bd42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2766b0324eb4ada8befa45b2df4bd42\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Environment Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENatural and Built Environment Bill, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ESpatial Planning Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the Inspector-General of Defence Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Intelligence and Security Committee on the 2023-24 Estimates for Vote Communications Security and Intelligence and Vote Security Intelligence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Justice Committee on the Department of Corrections, Ministry of Justice, Oranga Tamariki, Crown Law Office, Serious Fraud Office Long-term Insights Briefing 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Jake Roos\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Natalia Fernandes, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Robyn Parnell\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the 2021-22 annual review of Drug Free Sport New Zealand, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the report of the Controller and Auditor-General, Governance of the City Rail Link project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdb8c3eb1adb4fcb872750fa9657fb65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdb8c3eb1adb4fcb872750fa9657fb65\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. The reports on the report of the Controller and Auditor-General and the report on the long-term insights briefing are set down for consideration. No bills have been introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7da67f6c8754ea3a5bdc7c7df7d3df4\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ed898eae7d74fb4a68d0363628141ec\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022288816faf7a5401e8e1e77c920f77583\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u00224d29bbda684a46cbb3f8b3c7e0e3da76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d29bbda684a46cbb3f8b3c7e0e3da76\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What progress has the Government made rebuilding New Zealand\u2019s public housing stock?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00222d4ad61fa6094090a1e4a1f2f9e02845\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d4ad61fa6094090a1e4a1f2f9e02845\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to report that this Government has now delivered over 12,000 public housing places since October 2017. As of May 2023, this also includes over 10,000 public housing new builds. Our pace of delivery means this Government is delivering the most public homes since the second Labour Government under Walter Nash in the 1950s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed60c96bcc24c079bb52220609e2460\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: How has delivery improved in the regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255944cb1c4584c9098d3b4f7fde4647a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve made good progress in terms of regional delivery. In Gisborne, for example, there was a decrease of 33 Housing New Zealand homes between 2008 and 2017. Since we came into office in 2017, Gisborne has seen an increase of 71 public homes to May\u00A02023. On the K\u0101piti Coast there was a decrease of 14 Housing New Zealand homes between 2008 and 2017. Since we came into office in 2017, we\u2019ve seen an increase of 24 public homes to May\u00A02023. We are committed to public housing delivery across New Zealand, especially in our regions. Regional delivery will be a particular focus in the updated public housing plan, which I hope to announce in the coming months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250babbe1637b450792fc1d906bcbd4f0\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: How have the recent severe weather events impacted delivery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa1e82df662d482f9a47cb7646fafbe5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Prior to the severe weather events, K\u0101inga Ora was on track in January to meet the Government\u2019s ambitious public housing plans of delivering 3,400 gross homes by June 2023. However, as mentioned previously in the House, several projects have been impacted by these weather events\u2014along with construction projects across those regions\u2014which have caused delays. By the end of June, we will have delivered a gross of 2,600 public homes, with the additional 800 homes experiencing an eight-week construction delay. K\u0101inga Ora has been focusing hard on delivering in spite of the weather events and remains on track to meet this new date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5bc4226a5254c47988810a9b1bdfb90\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: What further work is the Government doing to support public housing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022417138f3dc4c4d4286554c063b99b1ee\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Additional investment announced as part of Budget 2023 will fund 3,000 additional public housing places to be delivered by June 2025. This builds on the significant and ongoing investment in public housing. There are currently over 4,500 public homes under construction today. There will be a particular and continued focus on delivery in regions, new build supply, and partnerships with community housing providers, M\u0101ori, and iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc1ea80af4194e2f9688e170e8606fd4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00223c8be92ba1bc4cbdb2cbf913880a5879\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c8be92ba1bc4cbdb2cbf913880a5879\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and policies? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00226f82e5101061429daaaf9514f4a45486\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f82e5101061429daaaf9514f4a45486\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. In particular, I stand by the Firearms Registry, which went live on Saturday, and it has so far seen 576 licence holders register 1,452 arms items. The register will provide us with a clear picture of guns in this country and will help stop firearms from being transferred into criminal hands. I also stand by the Corrections Amendment Bill, which is being read for the first time today, both in the House and, it seems, by the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba71eae2ee647418035b913ebf27250\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister please tell the House and New Zealanders how many gang members or holders of illegal firearms have registered their firearms with her new $200 million register in the time she mentioned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294bdc3f355e8475d9deffdd9c430ab75\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have that figure on me. However, the point of this is to ensure we have a clear understanding and knowledge of where firearms are and who owns them, with the purpose of ensuring that they do not end up in criminal hands. I do need to just quote the Police Association president when discussing ACT\u2019s promise to repeal the register: \u201CACT cannot claim to be the tough on gangs party when they lobby to remove the best opportunity to prevent gangs from arming themselves\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215746566e70541028b8e13bdaf3e28a9\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Acting Prime Minister aware that spending per person on education has risen 8.4 percent faster than inflation since her Government has been in office, and, if so, can she really say that New Zealanders are getting better value for money in education when fewer kids are going to school and Kiwi kids are doing worse in every international comparison since her Government has been in office? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e436f3f85494032832ce1c4ac9fb9e2\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to apologise for being part of a Government that has increased spending in education. We take the education sector and the future of our children seriously. Also, I will note that when I\u2019m out and about in my electorate, often I have schools pointing out the difference that the investment in property has made, pointing out the difference that free lunches in schools have made, and pointing out the difference that the amount of funding that we have put towards schools to cover off the need for them to charge donations to families\u2014the difference that that has made. I\u2019m very proud of our investment in education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022311694ad1c9e4d4cb51ccf5f9f892166\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: If the Acting Prime Minister won\u2019t apologise for spending more money, will she apologise for spending more money only to have fewer kids going to school, learning less? It\u2019s all there in black and white\u2014will she apologise for that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e238e3664a4d40cc8c87623a67c029c2\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I could rattle off some more investments in education if that member would like, including the announcement that we made at Budget to make it 20 hours free for two-year-olds for early childhood education and to invest in public transport so that our children who need to catch the bus to school don\u2019t have to pay for their transport. Those things make a difference. All of the initiatives I\u2019ve rattled off: public transport; food in schools; period products in schools, even\u2014they make a difference to whether or not kids will show up to the classroom, so I do not apologise for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b934e38e7c344125aa0f5f074d6254bf\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How is it possible that every time she\u2019s challenged for spending more money to get worse results, she just lists more examples of spending that haven\u2019t got results? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db54797a91f84ae7a384e540f51da0a0\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I would refute the premise of that question and say that, actually, every time that member asks me a question in this House, it gives me an opportunity to talk about the importance of our investment and the achievements of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9d15bf3b5dd46fa913bc6c3f5b7f48e\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Prime Minister Chris Hipkins when he said, \u201Cit\u2019s not right for households to be tightening their belts if the Government doesn\u2019t too.\u201D, and if she does agree with that statement from the Prime Minister, can she see the problem with her constantly standing up and talking about spending and investment without being able to point to a single thing that\u2019s actually got better at the end of the day for Kiwis? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a322cfe54fcf4f61a898b093796af290\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Tightening our belts includes not promising New Zealanders tax cuts when they cannot be afforded and where, actually, there would be a requirement for there to be cuts elsewhere. Our Prime Minister, who I agree with always, has also made it clear that our focus as a Government is on the bread and butter issues affecting New Zealanders, and that was reflected very strongly in all of the investments that we saw at Budget 2023. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266bcd3bbc54a4214900ba110ecb9ff00\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Acting Prime Minister like just one more chance to tell the people of New Zealand what measurable outcome or final result has actually got better under her Government that spends 25 percent more per person after inflation? Just one measurable thing\u2014not an investment, but an actual improvement in the outcome for the money that is being spent on behalf of taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f1e797c91c34397b3a06e9e3a45835b\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I will do better than that\u2014I\u2019ll give that member two. Firstly, just referring to what was spoken about by our Minister of Housing and the 12,000 additional public houses that we now have in this country, that comes off the back of inheriting a housing crisis where a Government had left fewer public houses than what had been in place when they first came into Government. Secondly, I also just want to refer to a report that came out on incomes this week, citing that those on the lowest incomes\u2014our beneficiaries\u2014are over 40 percent better off in terms of their incomes, even when inflation is taken into consideration, than what they were when we took office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022813eb1cdeeae4170b9ded8eb85e4206d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Who advised the Prime Minister to use housing as an example of something that\u2019s got better under her Government when the prices are through the roof, rents are at record levels, and tens of thousands of people are living in motels under her Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d97aa803f764c06a262bbfcc0f011ed\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly don\u2019t need that member\u2019s advice with regards to what will be in the content of my answer. I\u2019m very proud of what we\u2019ve achieved in housing. There is much more to do, and we are the political party and the Government to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278fb98fc1bcd4887a3a0911035fc1adc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022041629f283254b8b9e9d8e3e897d898e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022041629f283254b8b9e9d8e3e897d898e\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002223bf1d8a91d54879823eb72653c890b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223bf1d8a91d54879823eb72653c890b0\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly this Government\u2019s delivery of over 12,000 additional public homes since October 2017. One in seven of all public homes in New Zealand have now been delivered by this Government. On an annual basis, this is the most public homes each year since the second Labour Government in the 1950s. There is more to do, but after a decade where National left New Zealand with 1,500 fewer public homes than it started with and failed to invest in new ones, we are making progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e3c01306bbf40a8842da1f27b40fa39\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Has New Zealand\u2019s economy grown faster or slower than Australia\u2019s in the last two quarters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238cf2de9f80443ae8247ea13c9b019fc\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, we are in the fortunate position of our economy now doing better than what it was during pre-COVID times. In terms of how we are doing in comparison to Australia, if we look at some measures including the unemployment rate\u2014which for New Zealand is at near-record lows, at 3.4 percent\u2014comparatively, we are still doing well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b56fa4efbc444775ac7e5428c2caf858\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very clear question: is the economy growing faster or slower?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022768c8b29b9184032b4953c213e1994ec\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker, the member\u2019s primary question asked around all Government statements and actions. You\u2019ve ruled previously that members can\u2019t expect very specific answers to very specific\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295b90640689e41aba4cda70a128e1fb2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d like to hear this, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294e208f2c41647ef872760964fadd74a\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Members can\u2019t expect very specific answers to very specific supplementary questions when the primary question is as general as it was. Are you going to take any action against that, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d633107a1048ad8d8ff35efe543317\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019ll rule on this: the question has been addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c417f5c1fab34571bac345652504d02a\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Are any of Australia, the United States, Canada, China, Japan, or any other comparable country in the Asia-Pacific region in recession, or is it just New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbb5d16b532047798cdd90dcc94f3890\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: If that member wants specific answers to specific questions, then I suggest that he put it in the primary question. However, I will say that, comparatively, with regards to our unemployment rate, with regards to our debt levels, and with regards to our exports, we are doing better than many. That doesn\u2019t negate, though, from the fact that there are a number of New Zealanders doing it tough at the moment. We recognise that. We\u2019re not alone\u2014many countries are experiencing the same thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022328e53718c654de194e977f8fc879a51\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Can she actually name a country other than New Zealand with all of a high current account deficit, a large fiscal deficit, high inflation, high interest rates, and a recession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab18b248a2d74f04b66f39e9bef0f45b\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, every country around the world is experiencing impacts from global inflation and the increases that ensue. We are not alone in this. We recognise that on the ground, that has an impact on New Zealanders. When we look at how we are comparing to other countries, though, we aren\u2019t doing as badly, but we\u2019re focused on making sure that we implement policies that are going to help New Zealanders in their every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276392b57cf7a437eaf2b0f2ca6cca4e6\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: So can she just name one country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc2b22a6f0134e4ea88dda9750799417\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I can name one country: Australia. I can name two countries: Australia and Canada. I can name three countries: Australia, Canada, Japan. I can keep going if that member would like me to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022001c33dab1d346039c814377c66414b0\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: What is the current account deficit, and why does it matter so much to the credit agencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d76f6424f9864e3c9fcbf249d7a83926\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: 8.5 percent of GDP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022505b113c7df74bba820d23614afd75d3\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you, finance Minister. I\u2019ll recognise him: he said, \u201C8.5 percent of GDP.\u201D\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ab3ea9df7e41619ee83b19828ffa6f\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: And why does it matter so much to credit agencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b6f118f351a4ee5ba795e17e9f9c299\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have the answer to that question in front of me, but we can certainly follow that up with the member if he would like us to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022236d6c492727446ca5ae34e33f13eb02\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why does her Government constantly try to claim credit for any success, but will then run a mile from responsibility when the New Zealand economy is underperforming the rest of the world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236de5c98390d4e12aeb133a33789357e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: That is not fair, and that member knows that we are not underperforming with the rest of the world. We are focused on being as positive as we can as a Government in light of some of the challenges that we\u2019re facing. We\u2019re doing our best not to be wet, whiny, or losing the plot. We\u2019re focused on making sure we\u2019re doing things that matter for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccbc77a6480c459ea3442a4495d36e08\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it embarrassing that having set out to do things so differently, she\u2019s got the same failed approach to the economy, the same failed Minister of Finance, and the same failing results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae4a16f7f7b14860acf3f16aae8a23c5\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: No. What\u2019s embarrassing is when someone says they supported the Crusaders since they were a child when they were 26 years old when the Crusaders were actually formed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ef78ce09a8a4eb4aa37df6ac3d16b7c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary, the Hon Grant Robertson. [Interruption] Any time now, Mr Bishop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b85d8ec13d640d2885e3e46a8476676\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Acting Prime Minister confirm that New Zealand\u2019s level of public debt, at around 20 percent of GDP, is lower than almost every other country that we compare ourselves to; can she confirm that unemployment, at 3.4 percent, is in the lower third of the OECD; can the Acting Prime Minister confirm\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fdf73117ca649ff9f2c198f5216181b\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Only two legs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a65616523c454f0480535d57535cd9f1\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, a question or not, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17abbbf54974aa98edc0e1e90fb6a85\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, the problem is you\u2019ve already asked three. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b4bceabc3f44e5781b1cc6277d89129\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, I\u2019ll keep going then, and they can keep yelling, Mr Speaker, if that\u2019s all right? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b357cbf735742fbb210909873ae407c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, not really. I think you should leave it there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e90d624497a849938cf6f7fd50ef92d5\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm those things, and I can also confirm that it is with the efforts of a great finance Minister that we have ended up in this position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ae1a4d9e4ea4f37958e71d857513c7d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002220d2c8718e944b1aa3e23c07f39bef5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220d2c8718e944b1aa3e23c07f39bef5f\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has the Government made on extra support for the tertiary education sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022553215a8d9a043ee87932d59a0659f5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022553215a8d9a043ee87932d59a0659f5c\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier today, the Minister of Finance and I announced that this Government will provide an extra $128 million funding over two years for tertiary education providers for courses at degree level and above. This is in addition to the 5 percent increase provided at Budget 2023, the most significant funding increase in 20 years. This funding will help maintain the quality and breadth of our higher education offerings and research capability in our tertiary institutions. This is vital for our students, our tertiary workforce, our broader research system, and for economic and social wellbeing in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c783bc5d8d45b8a6d2369cea09d645\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Why was this increase needed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d50765aedae4a23b5b993ffbd40603c\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Budget 2023 provided for a 5 percent increase\u2014the most significant funding increase in 20 years\u2014but when we began our Budget process, universities and other degree providers were forecasting enrolment increases. The opposite has occurred, and it is clear that there is a need for additional support. Presently, our tertiary institutions are experiencing an unexpectedly large decline in domestic enrolments and increased cost pressures. In addition, although international enrolments are increasing, they remain well below pre-COVID levels. Similar issues are being faced by tertiary providers worldwide. The Government has heard the concerns of the sector and has acted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022349d388fbf074fedbc314937c5d3866d\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What institutions will benefit from this increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620d9d2d17984a5b8ec687176cfe3bc3\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: While recent focus has been on Victoria University and Otago University, other institutions have previously managed declines in student numbers. We did not want to disadvantage these institutions, which in some cases had already made difficult decisions. The funding boost will go to all degree-granting institutions. I will report back to Cabinet by the end of July on whether recently announced changes represent a threat to capability of provision of programmes nationwide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256691befc0e7455e8670b74fc79e5f65\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government ensure that higher education funding is fit for purpose going forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c00df3d539534fe4a74e8b94c7e140b8\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Today, we announced the Government will review higher education funding, including the Performance-based Research Fund. The current financial situation of some tertiary institutions points to the need to take this broader look into the way our higher education system is funded and financed. Today\u2019s funding announcement is a temporary boost for two years. We need to take a thorough look at the funding system during this time. The Government remains committed in supporting and working with the tertiary sector so it meets the evolving needs of students and continues to make a critical contribution to the research and innovation in Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d6dc350433247da8f8463a74d6cb049\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Will the review of the tertiary education funding model put the voice of students front and centre in the terms of reference in light of research which finds, for example, two-thirds of students regularly cannot afford the basics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b054b50869b04f4a9397c2fb92138ca9\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, it will, and I look forward to working with students to hear about their concerns over the next few months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d9f3c52525be48eeb71b86c172b0f44a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d12873f5251a48628c034800bb0b16e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d12873f5251a48628c034800bb0b16e9\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What advice, if any, has he had about the impact a new asset tax, such as, for example, a wealth tax, would have on the New Zealand economy, particularly in light of economic recession and the cost of living crisis? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002258c8a44a958140e9b1df06b34ca757a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258c8a44a958140e9b1df06b34ca757a8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government, as all Governments do, seeks and receives a range of policy advice on New Zealand\u2019s current tax settings. For example, we received advice on various new taxes, such as a wealth tax, from the Tax Working Group. The Tax Working Group produced an entire second volume of its final report on the taxing of the gains of assets\u2014in particular, a capital gains tax. Treasury has regularly provided me and past Ministers of Finance with advice on the merits of asset taxes, including a capital gains tax, the impacts of which Treasury has said to include improved capital allocation and greater equity in the tax system. The impact of any taxes such as these is very dependent on their design and the subsequent use of the revenue. As previously stated in the House, the Government has no plans to introduce any such tax in this parliamentary term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe98dc48e0f440acab45b6c8f333a270\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister sought advice on tax policies recently agreed to by the Labour Party policy council, which I\u2019m told recommend income tax reductions funded by a large new asset tax, together with a 45c tax rate for incomes $200,000 and higher?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c4b0597603e4bfba01906337ff644fc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m obviously not responsible inside this House for the Labour Party\u2019s policy council, but I can provide helpful advice to the member that that\u2019s been the position of the Labour Party conferences over many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc80e1720e5d44559454b0c9dc734aa8\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Well, has the Minister of Finance received official advice recently on proposals of that sort, and, allegedly, sought by the New Zealand Labour Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217283fb6e9804a6bb2d644702d905359\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the connection that the member is making in her question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc85e2af4bf54d12911901e1ab2c0bec\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister of Finance shared advice prepared as part of the Budget process with the Labour Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281448591c84241b88ef1e06ddfcdde7c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261551d2016ae4d098da5aea1af823629\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Finance think a wealth or asset tax of the sort proposed by the Green Party would be good or bad for the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283477bb865644d1787fa9c89ab5b3172\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my primary answer, the Government has no intention of introducing a tax of that sort this term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fabc1a319f1447ea97056a3f24adf475\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Finance agree that in the middle of a recession and cost of living crisis, it would be reckless to impose a new asset and top tax on the New Zealand economy, sending a wrecking ball through our economy, resulting in job losses, capital flight, and lower growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c66b7d963e64dbb87d5937d2e91a419\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What would be reckless is proposing tax cuts at a time at which our public services are under extreme pressure and when the Government\u2019s job, in part, is to help the Reserve Bank with bringing down inflation. That recklessness is the mark of the National Party\u2019s policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f665721fb72f49c7a490ce1f0bea6692\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister like to take this opportunity to rule out introducing an asset or wealth tax while he is Minister of Finance, or does it remain firmly on the table, just after the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd425b9b3594267a9e936268ec96cd7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for her confidence in the return of the Labour Government and my ongoing role as Minister of Finance. I stand by my previous answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299cd6c5962b6405e80ee58796c5f6e01\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister of Finance think it is reckless to reduce people\u2019s personal income tax, but it is perfectly responsible to impose an asset or wealth tax on the New Zealand economy when it is particularly fragile, in recession, and enduring a cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebc5cff068aa4b2b8f5daa5cbcc9fd0e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I did not say that. What I said was it was reckless at a time at which public services were under extreme pressure to be looking at across-the-board tax cuts that deliver very little to low-income earners. Rather, what I think the responsible approach is is to support people with cost of living increases and invest in our public services. The member will have to explain how she thinks she can do what she wants to do with her policy and properly fund public services\u2014it doesn\u2019t add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ad88f42ff2e462c9a285d8bc2999c5d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9c6d8929c364bd3aa8071d7ccbc7150\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9c6d8929c364bd3aa8071d7ccbc7150\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What is the Government doing to reduce the cost of healthcare from 1 July?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f526c780c16147629d8b6a7c604b98f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f526c780c16147629d8b6a7c604b98f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E This Government is proudly reducing the cost of healthcare for New Zealand households by removing the $5 copayment on prescription medicines. Removing the $5 charge will make it easier and cheaper for New Zealanders to access the medicines they need, having a meaningful impact for many households, particularly those with multiple prescriptions to fill on a regular basis. This Government is committed to ensuring our health system provides equitable access for New Zealanders so they can have the health services when they need and where they live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c5a5f7a7d944f87a2b2111b22e29d8b\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How many people will benefit from the removal of the $5 prescription fee for medicines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225489c41875254006811e364fcd735f09\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: An estimated 3.5 million New Zealanders will no longer have to worry about having enough money in their account when they collect their medication. This will also benefit more than 800,000 New Zealanders over the age of 65 who received prescription medicines in the community last year and will no longer have to cut their pills in half or take it every second day. Last year, over 440,000 prescriptions for oral contraception were dispensed. From 1 July, that will be free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c03efd4e47564f989e67e365207daa22\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government removing the $5 prescription fee for medicines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834c9016ad0f4c9a9a7826917b5a67fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The $5 charge is a barrier to some New Zealanders getting the medicines they need. Removing the charge makes it easier and cheaper for New Zealanders to access medicine, having a meaningful impact for many households, particularly those with many prescriptions to fill. By removing the $5 co-payment on medicines, we\u2019re investing in the simple treatments that can prevent chronic conditions becoming emergencies that need hospital treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c182be5dab44c8bb1daeb05c8a988ab\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How will the policy be implemented on Saturday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d70d6bec60964e56bbf1cfabb20aec3d\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: From 11.59 p.m. on 30 June 2023, no standard $5 prescription co-payments will be charged to people who collect their prescription from a pharmacy. People don\u2019t need to do anything different from what they usually do\u2014just turn up for the pharmacy and get their standard medicines for free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b19727f22914f7eb61c02d6c837cd2f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002266bbf1d15e2f42008402b139f73738ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266bbf1d15e2f42008402b139f73738ae\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does she agree with independent victims\u2019 advocate Ruth Money, who says that discounts to sentences for convicted criminals are \u201Cgetting out of control\u201D, and how does allowing for sentence discounts to reach 73 percent fit with her stated pledge to be \u201Cvictim-centric\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022191422ac1b1f40dbaf9dad9d757215ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022191422ac1b1f40dbaf9dad9d757215ef\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I agree that perpetrators of crime need to be held to account, and the more serious the crime, the greater the punishment justified. I note that the Government has not lowered any penalties for individual offences since we have been in office. Decisions on sentences are matters for the judiciary. There are no central sentencing guidelines because the last National-ACT Government axed them and the Sentencing Council. I respect Ruth Money for her advocacy, and I agree with her statement from 21 April in relation to a new bill the Government will be introducing to expand victim rights, when she said, \u201Cget in behind this\u201D. On being victim-centric, the Government is proud of its track record. Since National left office, our Government has tripled funding for victim assistance schemes, doubled the funding for victim support, passed the sexual violence Act to improve outcomes for victims, and is establishing pilots to improve victims\u2019 safety and ensure they\u2019re heard in bail decisions, and to strengthen support for child victims of sexual violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ecfa301b5ea4d2eae79e724630ab1b5\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think that Parliament should not be able to amend the Sentencing Act in response to what MPs on this side of the House, at least, regard as a widespread sense across the country that there are insufficient consequences for crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022942028564c4248a18e83f6af80676cc4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I, like every other politician in this House, respect the sovereignty of this Parliament to change the law. In respect of prison populations, New Zealand\u2019s prison population is similar to Australia\u2019s and is higher than in England and Wales, Portugal, Spain, France, Korea, Canada, Austria, Germany, Iceland, and Japan. We do not have low rates of imprisonment in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722729dc299d4e2eaedbedf27fb514f7\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with National\u2019s policy to take more than $6 million a year currently sent to Harry Tam and others to produce written cultural reports and to redirect it to provide extra funding to help the victims of crime? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd80f854cb864ec1a5f8f1b320e91145\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those reports are prepared under section 27 of the Sentencing Act 2002, which is very old legislation, and they can be requested by a court where an offender is appearing for sentence. The person or people from whom those reports are sought is not controlled by Government; that\u2019s controlled by the courts in those court processes. That said, the Minister of Justice is on record in her concern for that cost centre growing, and has asked the Ministry of Justice to look at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eecc397f841b4057b2a00e1777217a0e\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Is she comfortable with life-long Mongrel Mob member Harry Tam boasting on his website that defendants have received sentence discounts of up to 35 percent because of factors raised in his company\u2019s cultural reports, and inviting people to contact him then for a quote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae1fcfe24ea84524a27f0175ed0bfec5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in response to the last supplementary question, the Minister has asked the Ministry of Justice to review changes in practice. When section 27 of the Sentencing Act was introduced, I\u2019m advised that those reports were normally verbal. There\u2019s become a habit where they are becoming expensive written reports. There is a question as to whether that is being appropriately controlled, and therefore the Minister has asked the Ministry of Justice to look into the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022218680e7711a4a4dae19368f8b0ea6eb\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: When she said in her stand up on Sunday of Chris Luxon, \u201CHe\u2019s talking about being tough on crime, soft on crime. We don\u2019t talk about those things. We talk about what works.\u201D, was she thinking about the issue from the perspective of the victims of crime, and, if so, can she understand that the victim of a serious assault or a rape might not think this system is working when their attackers receive only home detention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b0e71141a3485e92571cba90652b19\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: When she was reflecting on whether National is tough on crime, she was reflecting on the fact that between 2009 and 2013, 30 police stations closed, police funding was frozen relative to inflation, and they defunded the Police, which is why police numbers fell under their watch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c47a8871c209422784907dab190c713a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u00226742b152504e4475868dcd236f9ad0d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226742b152504e4475868dcd236f9ad0d3\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment: What recent announcements has she made about Peke Waihanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00226f41cf95c6454f4cbff84f249043c9e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f41cf95c6454f4cbff84f249043c9e0\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I announced the opening of the new, state-of-the-art Peke Waihanga - Artificial Limb Service facility in Christchurch. I was pleased to open the new facility alongside their chief executive, Sean Gray, and board chair, George Reedy. The new facility features seven new clinical spaces, including three purpose-built rehabilitation areas. It also includes specific manufacturing technology for prosthetics and orthotics to be made in-house. Importantly, patients and amputees have had direct input into the design of Peke Waihanga, and that has led to this facility being truly designed around the needs of its users. This is a big step forward for an organisation that does extremely important work, and I am proud that this Government has been able to support it through a $6.1 million investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a556cddec0a8471e919cf5ff3ba78652\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: How will the new centre support amputees and those at risk of amputation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a18b4b873454980ad80a29f166fd834\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: This facility will support over 600 amputees and nearly 3,000 others. In addition to providing high-tech prosthetics, Peke Waihanga also supports patients through a peer-support service that provides support to those adapting to limb loss by matching them with trained supporters who have themselves adapted to limb loss. The centre also supports those who are at risk of needing an amputation due to conditions like diabetes, through the provision of preventative measures such as orthotics. The advanced technologies in this centre, such as high-tech 3D printers will also mean, I\u2019m told\u2014when I visited the centre\u2014that wait times for prosthetics will generally reduce from what used to be about a full day to just 90 minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a977df246264b90aebc4659d458bf47\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: How will this new facility support South Island communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d43c0aecd1540e3b8516cb4ed190bba\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: The new Peke Waihanga facility is a great addition, and it will future-proof the region and the South Island to respond to the increasing demands of the ageing population and the implications of chronic disease. The development of the new centre builds on our Government\u2019s investment in the disability sector, alongside other investments like the additional $863 million in Budget 2023. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b234ce4090640d2bd8c1957718fdce7\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: How will this new facility help to advance medical practice in prosthetic and orthotic care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225be88a76fe2c4e36be9a4fdd2895f792\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Medical students in their final year at Otago University will now be able to co-locate at the centre. This will enhance the students\u2019 understanding of prosthetic and orthotic care and will provide research opportunities to improve patient care in the future. This is a truly exciting initiative, and I\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that has supported it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c502551b19b84b2cab3fd2bcce9b4426\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee792f2cd4c74dd89058023beb0bb715\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee792f2cd4c74dd89058023beb0bb715\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Is he confident children in the care of Oranga Tamariki are safe; if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c231d8e6741042459354eab2ccd5d3d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c231d8e6741042459354eab2ccd5d3d6\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E The allegations that recently came to light are of grave concern to me and, as I have said previously, are totally unacceptable. Oranga Tamariki has appointed Mike Bush to undertake a rapid review of the specific allegations, as well as a broader review of how residences are operating. Oranga Tamariki has made the right call, and he will get to the bottom of what\u2019s going on. I have a clear expectation that young people in any type of facility are supported and safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db26bdf8cc924fca8ac843a03788ea00\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: How many allegations has he been made aware of since the beginning of the year involving Oranga Tamariki staff acting inappropriately in residences? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022336c338f9df94faa8c68cf9c32310f00\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t give an exact number, but what I can say in terms of children in Oranga Tamariki care\u2014so that is all children, including those in the community and with families\u2014there have been 453 children who have findings of harm. Unfortunately, we can\u2019t go back beyond 2019 because the previous Government didn\u2019t collect that data, so we are not able to compare the numbers through now and previous to this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f1bc7e6beaa411fb1481c0fc51941b5\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: Will the rapid review into Oranga Tamariki\u2019s community-based homes also consider the actions of the four employees who remain suspended on paid leave from an Oranga Tamariki care and protection residence in Christchurch closed two years ago as a result of the investigation into the use of excessive force by Oranga Tamariki workers; if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d25e48704347f7bed41524fe514346\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: So the circumstances around that investigation are Sir Wira Gardiner at the time, who was the acting chief executive, immediately implemented the child protection protocol. That involved police doing an investigation, which took over a year. The situation around the now three workers is currently before the Employment Relations Authority, and that process needs to be allowed to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253d1077f31b04b12a19be6881861431b\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it acceptable for an Oranga Tamariki employee to continue working at the Oranga Tamariki facility where and when there has been an allegation of sexual abuse made by a teenage resident against that staff member? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ff142793f2414ab482d3211175af65\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: That allegation was made and police were involved in the investigation, and they did not come to a conclusion around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a7d07b04854a819cddc8b610a00612\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that the youth residents in Te Puna Wai \u014D Tuhinapo, the youth justice facility at Rolleston, Christchurch, are safe and properly supervised when there have been at least two reported, separate incidents in just four months of youths taking to the roof of the facility? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220594cd7753b54423b3d1e1b12926d271\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Every child deserves to feel safe and secure in these residences. The incident that occurred at Te Puna Wai over the weekend was attended by police, with the safety of the other children in residence and of staff the top priority. Obviously, this incident and the response will be looked into, and if anything needs to change, it will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af55390868c542f8b6b82bffb98752ea\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4f1a2ceaeb84d849f73dc212fa0e40c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4f1a2ceaeb84d849f73dc212fa0e40c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Is she committed to ensuring everyone on the public housing waiting list has an accessible, affordable, and healthy public home to live in; if so, why has her Government not committed to funding the public housing building programme beyond June 2025?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022da2f512b48af4bab91b70fdc38a80cae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da2f512b48af4bab91b70fdc38a80cae\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, yes, through a combination of our continued commitment to public housing, affordable rentals, and affordable housing settings more broadly. I\u2019m proud that since 2017, we have delivered 12,000 more public homes. That is the most public houses being delivered each year since Walter Nash\u2019s second Labour Government in the 1950s. In answer to the second part of the question, a future Labour Government will continue to build on the successive increases we\u2019ve made to public housing since 2017. For example, when we came into Government, there was $900 million in baseline for income-related rent subsidy (IRRS) funding. In Budget 2023, there is now $1.6 billion\u2014almost double what it was in 2017. It is this increased funding that has allowed for the largest housing-build programme adding to our State houses since the 1950s. We may be building the most public homes each year since Walter Nash, but we recognise the job is not done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280415d21705b414495b7f95dc2188a7c\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What is the estimated number of people that will still be on the public housing waiting list without a secure home in five years, based on the current number of public homes projected to be built by her Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2607986ed8f4022b1602dea4dca6358\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in the answer to the primary question, the way in which we clear a public housing waiting list isn\u2019t only through the provision of public housing. For example, this Government has committed $350 million to work with community housing providers to rebuild a missing part of the New Zealand housing system, and that is in community-led, affordable rental properties. That will be an important part of the solution. Of course, a continued commitment to building public houses is a critical part of that, and I look to the 21,000 places that this Government has funded through to 2025. My only regret is that that is only just making up for the 20,000 fewer houses that we have in New Zealand today as a result of nine years of a National Government who did not build houses, and they ended up with 1,500 fewer houses, even after you account for the transfer to community housing providers. We\u2019d have 20,000 more houses today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2c8cd93a83f47f7a1ff147f7f49d6af\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What is the number of people that will still be on the public housing waiting list in five years, based on her current commitments, who sign up to the public housing waiting list to go into State housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a163b8b9e4e45f5888bda9a734c5edc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve given the answer to that in previous questions. It is impossible to give that number because there are a variety of ways in which people come off the public housing waiting list. Some of that will be into affordable, community provider - led housing, rather than through IRRS funding. Some of the people on the public housing waiting list, for example, may be youth who can be funded in some of the youth facilities that the member\u2019s colleague is rolling out as part of her Budget funding. There\u2019s a variety of ways in which that can be achieved, so it\u2019s impossible to give that member that number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283f416e7f738435ab0dc8d9aa7427cd9\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: If she acknowledges in her primary answer that there is more work to be done, why has her Government not committed to funding the public housing building programme beyond 2025?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab8ab532e8da402d8d4a7ff7cebec95b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: We have funded the public housing build programme out to 2025. It will be up to each and every party in this House in their costed manifestos\u2014costed manifestos\u2014to show what their commitment is to public housing, both in terms of the capital needed for building but also in terms of the operational funding required to fund additional places. Labour will stand by its record. You do not add the most number of public houses since the 1950s without having a deep commitment to public housing like the Labour Party does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba389b3c415c463dad0da2ce135f2204\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Why does K\u0101inga Ora not collect data on how many times they\u2019ve had to apply for consent to build higher density, and how does she know if planning barriers are holding back high-quality, medium-density public housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0a0e00979474112aa0089c28e3c2290\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: K\u0101inga Ora, obviously, does collect data around how it\u2019s doing in terms of its intensification. It\u2019s a large part of the work that we do in our large-scale projects, which is the redevelopment of several neighbourhoods in Auckland and, of course, the work that\u2019s going on here in Porirua, closer to where we are. Density and intensification is a critical part of how we will increase our supply, but it is not the only way, because one of the areas where our Government is committed to focusing on delivery for the additional 3,000 places funded in this year\u2019s Budget is building in some of those regional towns and centres that have not seen additional public houses for decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d39f673f4714b3cb78e793166197d61\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022bea1bd8c651e4cbd8262d20478433a5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bea1bd8c651e4cbd8262d20478433a5e\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What options is Te Whatu Ora considering for the repurposing or alternative use of the more than 17,839,000 rapid antigen tests (RATs) that as of 12 June had either expired or will not be dispatched because they are nearing expiry, and what does it cost Te Whatu Ora each month to store these expired or expiring RATs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002292a1ef8da35a4bb3a55a9700ef8b84b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292a1ef8da35a4bb3a55a9700ef8b84b5\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E There was no crystal ball when the pandemic hit New Zealand. Minimising waste in the health system is always a priority. At a time of uncertainty and short global supply, it made it necessary to purchase large orders. This Government made the decision to be as prepared for the ongoing pandemic as possible, and stock was purchased to prepare us in the face of significant risk and uncertainty. Stockpiling is routine in pandemic preparedness and management. In answer to the first part of the question, I\u2019m advised Te Whatu Ora are considering a range of options to mitigate product waste through expiry date extensions and deferring orders where possible. Te Whatu Ora continue to investigate ways to minimise the environmental impact of waste and provide a sustainable approach to the disposable COVID-19 products. They are actively scanning the market for these solutions. In answer to the second part of the question, I am advised that Te Whatu Ora does not have specific information on the warehousing costs of the expired component of the stockholding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc67b7451e704a81a5538fc53765e523\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Where are the rapid antigen tests being stored and by which organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a14a1ad801d84f70979eae136a1c89fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Te Whatu Ora has stored the rapid antigen tests in a warehouse that they have contracted. I\u2019m happy to give the member the name of the supplier, if they put it on notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b70d0e9b93b41a194081409d9215a65\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Who owns it, and how much are they spending on the contract?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d2d07cf69534309b847ee0e84ce68f4\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to provide the cost of the warehousing overall for the member if the member puts that question on notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d059a043cd4295a22907876723993b\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Is she seriously saying she cannot answer how much they\u2019re spending on storage of the expired or expiring RAT tests and does not know where they are being stored or by whom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022551ccbea19964282bb5a9121f4250511\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am saying that Te Whatu Ora does not have specific information on the warehousing costs of the expired component of the stockholding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224aad7501de4a435fb501f0d0943982c2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022 data-id=\u0022980c4f4fac0b40399dcf61d8d3533c61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022980c4f4fac0b40399dcf61d8d3533c61\u0022\u003ESTEPH LEWIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What recent measures have been put in place by the Government to help increase vaccination rates and accessibility to healthcare for mums and babies? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022b413130e240a46b88ec442b6f868c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b413130e240a46b88ec442b6f868c0cc\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Last Friday, I was excited to launch, alongside Uri Ririki - Child Health Connection Centre, a new hauora van in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, which will help protect hap\u016B m\u0101m\u0101, their p\u0113pi, and tamariki from preventable diseases such as the flu and whooping cough. Being immunised is one of the best things we can do to protect ourselves, our wh\u0101nau, and our communities. To lift our vaccination rates, our health services should be accessible and take different approaches to overcome potential barriers, and that\u2019s what the hauora van does. It takes immunisation to where the people are and even lets vaccinators park outside a home, allowing hap\u016B m\u0101m\u0101 to access the services right on their doorstep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f962b97400b64661a166d895d78002c2\u0022\u003ESteph Lewis\u003C/span\u003E: How will these measures increase accessibility to healthcare and vaccination rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247abc9895eb24e7d8ceb2a5d3fcf406a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Mobile health vans provide an accessible and convenient way for hap\u016B m\u0101m\u0101 to provide antenatal immunisations, which is a key priority in T\u0101maki-makau-rau in particular right now. There are several barriers to getting antenatal vaccinations, including time pressures due to work, as well as some hap\u016B m\u0101m\u0101 who may feel anxious about getting a vaccine while pregnant. Our caring health kaimahi know how to engage and answer these concerns, and the hauora van means they are right there in our neighbourhoods to work their magic. Along with the mobile clinic that was launched on Friday, a sister van will be launched next month with similar details, promoting immunisation to our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205c9ff33d2f4441c9e20e053a919e556\u0022\u003ESteph Lewis\u003C/span\u003E: What other services will the hauora vans be able to provide?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d481bcfe06ca4cae8af0472598a3cbbb\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Beyond being a moving billboard for immunisation, these vans are multi-use purpose-built health units. They have features like handwashing stations and electric chilly bins for vaccine storage. The vans can also be used for cervical screening and health checks, and will be able to be present at local events in conjunction with community providers. They\u2019ll also be used to support immunisation in our secondary schools, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1c38bf395514188b077b29ba80a178c\u0022\u003ESteph Lewis\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important to increase access to antenatal immunisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dabfd530b709446b987a41ce78ec0257\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: The evidence is clear that antenatal vaccinations keep p\u0113pi and m\u0101m\u0101 safe from serious diseases\u2014for example, pregnant people can be three to five times more likely to be hospitalised with influenza than those who are not pregnant. However, as of December 2022, the antenatal influenza vaccination rate was only 38 percent across Auckland region. Measures such as these hauora vans are a further example of how the Chris Hipkins Government is focused on the fundamentals by increasing access to healthcare and investing to improve health outcomes for all families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c595d6bf70f4b34be289a797a1d806e\u0022\u003EAppointments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a21a745d128541b7aef95893d372e994\u0022\u003EAssistant Speaker\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002280716050b5014114ba0e2caff58aef99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280716050b5014114ba0e2caff58aef99\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to appoint the Hon Poto Williams as an Assistant Speaker until the end of Thursday, 29 June 2023, despite Standing Order 29.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbc3db7d39694c32991919ef70785d80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbc3db7d39694c32991919ef70785d80\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection for that course of action being taken? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c056c60e4fe7487bb58d259bb2aaff91\u0022\u003ESupplementary Estimates Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f31bb067292e42cfbb9f267f14563775\u0022\u003ESupplementary Estimates Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224e0d4f3e29604c2d97f72eb7e3f4655e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e0d4f3e29604c2d97f72eb7e3f4655e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I present the Addition to the Supplementary Estimates of Appropriations for the Government of New Zealand for the Year Ending 30 June 2023. That paper is published under the authority of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002263c1c316e0cc4f85b2563a1db609e3de\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002205448da00c164ed5ae5e45e298f64eb4\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00229aad9ddc4a6d409aa133f0c19a960796\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aad9ddc4a6d409aa133f0c19a960796\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand it is the Government\u2019s intention to introduce an imprest supply bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022b97c0a40b64448ddb98da040f82e74ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b97c0a40b64448ddb98da040f82e74ad\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00221f404511a0344185b9f886e85cf4f26f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f404511a0344185b9f886e85cf4f26f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for first reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022722cc19a703e414c93401fbfff939854\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbe51b4469604a71aeb7e99f31859c3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbe51b4469604a71aeb7e99f31859c3c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e7e3feea58f84ca9bbdfaa5cdc735db4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000199\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d1e5945b3674355954bf754e99a0c73\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d1e5945b3674355954bf754e99a0c73\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228506cd308bec43bba28f5036cf04bb58\u0022\u003ESecond Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb7b229638d143b387dda5d4fb186c20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb7b229638d143b387dda5d4fb186c20\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a feature of the House\u2019s programme of looking after expenditure in the House. I\u2019m just looking at the\u2014yes, Mr Speaker, that\u2019s right: I\u2019ve plenty to say, but don\u2019t need a stopped clock to do so. This is a regular part of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259dce64cf8d043e5b8261f57b31eda4e\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: It just feels like it! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a81dfb2b45240b190347715425d90ec\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Just like Mr Penk, a stopped clock tells the right time at least twice a day. It\u2019s good to have it going now, though. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a regular part of the financial processes of this House, to put these two bills together and pass them in the way that we are. I think it might be helpful at the outset just to go through again for members exactly what these two bits of legislation do. The Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill seeks appropriation by Parliament of changes to appropriations and new appropriations for the 2022/23 financial year that the Government agreed to between 22 April, when the 2022/23 Estimates were finalised, and 23 April, when the 2022/23 Supplementary Estimates were finalised. Spending against these appropriations has already been incurred under the authority of imprest supply, but unless this spending is appropriated by Parliament before the end of the 2022/23 financial year, it would become other unauthorised expenditure requiring validation by Parliament in the appropriation (confirmation and validation) bill. I want to thank members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their prompt\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40780e31faf40a09636c66823c3957b\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Great committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2b7eaeb809c45e7a84a15300273943b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014indeed, a great committee\u2014scrutiny of and report back to the House on the 2022/23 Supplementary Estimates bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill is needed to provide the sole parliamentary financial authority for Government spending in 2023/24 until the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill\u2014the Budget\u2014is passed. As the third reading on the latter bill must take place before the House rises on 31 August before the election, this imprest supply bill provides supply for the first two months of the 2023/24 financial year. In addition, it is standard practice for imprest supply bills to cover possible materialisation of fiscal risks and the uncertain timing and spread of expenditure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn the imprest supply bill, just briefly, what it does this time around is seek sufficient authority for the Government to incur a maximum of $27 billion in expenses, $9 billion in capital expenditure, and $1 billion of capital injections. The total imprest in the bill is lower than what has been provided over the last three years. That\u2019s partly because it\u2019s dealing with only expenditure up until the general election but also because the amount provided has been declining over time as the COVID-19 emergency response spending has become a less significant part of what the Government is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said many times when I\u2019ve spoken on imprest supply bills, these are limits; they are not targets. They provide room for the Government to be able to undertake the business of Government until such time as the Budget has passed, but they also by necessity build in a buffer to that approach in the unlikely event that something occurs that means we need to use expenditure that hadn\u2019t otherwise been foreseen. Obviously, during the COVID period, this was happening on a much more regular basis, and therefore we were closer to the limits on occasions. I would expect in this case to be quite some distance from the limit unless there is some largely unforeseen thing that arises. So imprest supply is very much part of the way Government runs due to the timing of the return of the Budget from select committees, where it currently is being interrogated, and it is an important part of allowing the Government to get about its business until that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EReturning to the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, I do just want to take the time of the House to highlight the fact that this bill does contain the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that has just very recently been tabled into the House. That is not the normal practice when it comes to this kind of bill, but it does happen from time to time. I can recall debating it when I was in Opposition and I can also recall doing it during the COVID period. This occurs when we end up with some expenditure that is required by the Government to be undertaken after the time at which the Supplementary Estimates are finalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper in this case relates to the Government\u2019s expenditure that we\u2019ll be undertaking when it comes to the North Island weather events and the need to have a policy in place to be able to manage those who will have to relocate from their current residences, as well as some other expenditure that is required with relationship to support for councils to be able to undertake works. While not much, if any, of that expenditure will actually take place during this financial year, given that the Government has taken a decision that it will cost-share these situations with local government, it is necessary to reflect that into the Supplementary Estimates. So in many ways it is accounting that leads us to this place. While we don\u2019t expect to pay out that money in the financial year, what the public finance rules tell us is that if the Government makes a serious determination that it will be doing this, we then have to account for it under the rules of good financial management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo an amount has been put aside there for this. That is to make sure that we have appropriated the funding; it doesn\u2019t meant that it will necessarily be spent. So I hope that that is clear for the House as to why that came about. It came about due to the timing of the decision to do that after the Supplementary Estimates closed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is, of course, a committee stage for this bill, which will take place immediately after the second reading, where we will be able to go into in any more detail that members want on the Supplementary Order Paper. Committee stages are not used to debate the individual Supplementary Estimates, but where there is an SOP, the committee stage offers an opportunity for us to be able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMore broadly in terms of the Supplementary Estimates, what they show is that throughout the period of the year there have been reasons to alter appropriations. Sometimes I think when members are considering such matters, they consider perhaps that we\u2019re talking about all new extra expenditure. That is not always the case. Sometimes an appropriation changes its nature, as opposed to the amount of money that is going in. Sometimes it is simply to enable spending to remain appropriated and fit within the appropriations. So an example for that was a change to Vote Conservation in the Supplementary Estimates this time around, where the Jobs for Nature funding had changed its nature, and rather than leave the appropriation as it was, that was altered and updated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESometimes it indicates that there has been a need for extra funding, and on a number of occasions in the Supplementary Estimates that are in front of the House today, that has been caused by the fact that the cost of doing things\u2014the inflation issues that we\u2019ve debated many times in this House\u2014have affected Government expenditure. So one example of that is a change in Vote Corrections which is largely around the Waikeria Prison project and the fact that the expenditure on that has been greater than expected due to some of the finance costs and inflationary costs that are related to that. So that is a reason to be able to make changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESometimes when we make changes to Supplementary Estimates, it\u2019s because of circumstances well and truly beyond control. So, for example, in putting together the census, when Cyclone Gabrielle hit, there was a need to make changes to the way census collection occurred to ensure that we did have those in the areas affected by Cyclone Gabrielle counted, and so Vote Statistics has a change within the Supplementary Estimates here to make sure that we were able to count all of those people. So that\u2019s an example of where some matter that was unforeseen means that an appropriation needs to change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESometimes it\u2019s to do with the way in which we fund things. So members of the House will be well aware that the Government, over a reasonably long period of time now, has been subsidising the cost of fuel both through the fuel excise duty and road-user charges. What that means is that in order to make up the difference from what is required for the National Land Transport Fund, the Government has been topping that fund up, rather than it being through revenue. That has to be reflected in the Supplementary Estimates as a change in terms of the way that the Government goes about what it does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo, essentially, the Supplementary Estimates reflect the activities of Government through the period of the year that weren\u2019t foreseen or weren\u2019t part of the original Budget documentation, and, as I say, along with the imprest supply bill that we have in front of us today, this is legislation that is usual and normal and part of our parliamentary process. The one exception this year, as I noted, is around the SOP that we have, which, as I say, we will be able to have the opportunity to go through during the committee stage of this debate. But I would just emphasise again that the timing of that decision came after the close-off of the Supplementary Estimates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI hope members of the House would agree that providing certainty to those who are in areas that have been affected by the cyclone justifies the approach that we are taking here. But as I say, actually, this is simply to make sure that we record the decision as opposed to that expenditure taking place in the remaining week of the financial year, or, indeed, up until the audit of accounts is finished. It just makes sure that we have tidied away a decision that Government has made and that members of the House can be clear about that. With that, I commend these bills to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226363f9b411b9487a969fb16901536dd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226363f9b411b9487a969fb16901536dd4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff3d11a70ef74223a31dfb6271b8c9bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff3d11a70ef74223a31dfb6271b8c9bf\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E With this legislation, the Labour Government is, effectively, asking Parliament to sign off on continuing to fund its ongoing economic mismanagement, because in these two bills, we, the representatives of New Zealanders, are asked to say yes to that Minister of Finance\u2019s proven record of failure in which we have an economy in recession, we have a cost of living crisis that has entered its third year, and in which New Zealanders from all walks of life are struggling to get ahead. These bills ask Parliament, in that context, to sign off on a Budget that fails to deliver overdue income tax reduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EMembers opposite, today, have crowed about that, that beneficiaries in New Zealand have had their incomes rise 40 percent, even when you account for inflation. Well, I would ask members opposite to reflect on what has occurred for the everyday wage earner, who, by almost any measure, has gone backwards, whose wages have not kept up with inflation, whose after-tax wages have fallen behind inflation, such that they are going backwards in real-income terms. That is the economic situation New Zealanders find themselves in under this Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EFaced with the opportunity to account for some of that inflation, to reduce the income tax that workers pay, to adjust tax thresholds to compensate for some of the inflation that Grant Robertson has let rip through the economy, this Budget has failed to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo we on this side of the House will not say yes to bills that give that Minister of Finance another go with the money hose, because we\u2019ve seen what he does with that money hose. He sprays it all around without discrimination, without targets, without accountability, without clarity for what will be achieved. The result is record levels of inflation, which we were told would be transitory but, in fact, has gone on into its third year\u2014inflation that is still running at more than triple what it should be, according to the Reserve Bank mandate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat we have had as a result is interest rates that have risen faster than at any time in the history of New Zealand\u2019s official cash rate. We have in front of us a ticking time bomb when New Zealanders from across the economy\u2014first-home buyers, small-business owners, farmers\u2014will, in the next few months, have to switch their home loan or their fixed loan from a loan with a rate of 2 or 3 percent to a rate of 6 or 7 percent. Many of them will not be able to cope with that. That interest rate will be the final blow for them. That is a ticking time bomb. Those interest rates have risen that fast because inflation has run amok in this economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn that context, the Minister of Finance is asking us to sign off on a Budget that completely fails to bring back-office bureaucratic spending under control, a Budget that fails to put in place any specific targets for what the Public Service will deliver. I look through this Budget and I see lots of money for restructuring, whether it\u2019s at Te P\u016Bkenga, the polytech centralisation; whether it\u2019s at Te Whatu Ora, where we\u2019ve got the new organisational chart and lots of restructuring happening; where we have the plans to restructure across the Public Service; but what I don\u2019t see in this Budget are specific targets for the increases in services that will be delivered to New Zealand as result. That is a great failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the House think that where money is appropriated, it should be clear what it\u2019s going to achieve, Ministers should hold themselves accountable for achieving it, and where it\u2019s not achieved, the Prime Minister should hold people accountable. But, actually, what\u2019s happened on the other side of the House, whether it\u2019s the $1.9 billion that went into mental health and didn\u2019t deliver additional mental health services; whether it\u2019s the money that was appropriated for the Provincial Growth Fund, in which the Auditor-General, the Public Service watchdog, came out last week and said that they cannot be confident that it has delivered value for money because the record-keeping was so poor, the processes were so poor, that the Auditor-General can\u2019t even work out what was going on with all of the cash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo what we see is that members opposite have become so used to dipping into the public purse, to using more and more taxpayers\u2019 money, that they have become sloppy with the way they account for the use of that funding. The result is a Budget that will put more pressure on inflation and will put more pressure on interest rates right at a time when New Zealanders are begging and asking for some relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis is a Budget that will send more New Zealanders to Australia, because, unfortunately, too many of them will look at what\u2019s appropriated for in this Budget and they will say, \u201CActually, there\u2019s nothing here for me. There\u2019s no income tax relief. There\u2019s no prospect of inflation getting under control. There\u2019s no prospect of my mortgage becoming more affordable. Actually, I can look to get a better opportunity elsewhere.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI want to turn now to this whole process that we\u2019re in, in which, with the Supplementary Estimates, we\u2019re appropriating the money in between Budgets, essentially. I think it\u2019s timely that we do so, when we see just how rushed this year\u2019s Budget was. The Budget hasn\u2019t even been passed yet\u2014that\u2019s why we\u2019re doing these Supplementary Estimates\u2014and yet the Government are already having to correct mistakes that were made in it. You heard the Minister of Finance speaking in some detail about some of those mistakes, in his remarks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat you didn\u2019t hear about was the tertiary bailout that he\u2019s already had to announce today. So distracted was the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Education by their plans to centralise the polytechs in the form of Te P\u016Bkenga, so distracted was the Minister of Education by her appearances at the Privileges Committee, that it appears\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296201dd75148442789bad23c651d8634\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. It\u2019s not permissible for the member to make references to the Privileges Committee in a debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022429d692615e54664a37d47ed8ecb4709\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s actually correct. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f51cc9dc4943979d3306088e87d6ef\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that point. This is an important matter, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf93a8a33562437ca49a01b5eb4be841\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no; it\u2019s quite clear that the member cannot make reference to an appearance before the Privileges Committee. That\u2019s not a matter of debate; that is a black and white.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d966dd9833e6476ca418ce58cb99ae40\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps the Speaker can take advice. It is strictly prohibited for any member to refer to the deliberations of a committee. The fact that something has been heard in public before a committee is a matter of public record and is not a breach of Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c27038e435244b1b82eeca23146bf3fa\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. No, the member is actually correct. The fact of the appearance is public record, just what can\u2019t be referred to is anything that came out of the debate. I withdraw my request. Did we stop the clock there? We did stop the clock. So the member has two minutes and 30 seconds left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f82ce4f784049b2915ccea0f59b4b26\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m not debating your ruling; I just want to make sure that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022397ec9538e34473ebac5a33bf91bfa8e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I hope not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae2d8ecac084d258d73ec6a7852320e\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014you saw and referred to Speaker\u2019s ruling 213/4, which states, \u201COnce a matter of privilege has been raised with the Speaker, it is out of order to refer to it in debate in the House.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf4ab39bf9ad4ef2a8f1739ed1dfc134\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the fact that the member has been before the Privileges Committee is a matter of public record. That\u2019s what my ruling will be based on. So the member may continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5b8d6a7dadb41a6a44dc77b42327b03\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, you\u2019ll appreciate that the situation at our universities is one that we here in Wellington have had good cause to reflect on. I have had people working in that system say to me, \u201CWhere was the Government when we were begging them to invite the international students back? Where was the Government when we were saying to them, \u2018If you don\u2019t give international students some better visas, then they\u2019re not going to come and there\u2019s going to be a hole in our books.\u2019?\u201D Well, the Government was prepared to ignore all of that. It put together a Budget, and now today has decided that they are going to put on another band-aid. That\u2019s just one example of the holes that we\u2019ve already seen in Grant Robertson\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe second example of a hole in the Budget that\u2019s already having to be repaired before the Budget has even passed is the proposal for 20 hours childcare for two-year-olds. The sector were so unhappy with that proposal that they described it as unworkable. Before the Budget had even passed, Ministers were having to change the design and structure of it. It remains unclear whether that policy can be delivered without many, many early childhood centres either being forced to close or to reduce the quality of care they provide to two-year-old students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd then we have the public transport debacle, where, again, with the Government that governs by slogans, we have a commitment to ensure free transport for certain age groups\u2014but, again, the councils who are being asked to implement that say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s unworkable in its current form.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EMy point is this: we have a Budget that is full of holes and we have a Budget that I predict\u2014I predict\u2014there will be many, many band-aids applied to in the months ahead. This is particularly important in the context of the Supplementary Estimates bill and the imprest supply bill, because what we will see is, in order to make it all stack up, you\u2019re going to see the Minister of Finance finding a lot more cash down the back of the couch, and it\u2019s going to be very hard to take him seriously, because he does that again and again. This is a Budget that delivers more debt, more inflation, and higher interest rates. It\u2019s a bad Budget. On this side of the House, we will not support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00226cfb16ad7f984e238e62a90429675a2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cfb16ad7f984e238e62a90429675a2d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure to take a call in this debate on the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill. I think it\u2019s important that we go back to that description that the Minister of Finance laid out in his first speech: exactly what this debate is about, what it does. It\u2019s a very technical debate. I would draw members\u2019 attention to the fact that this isn\u2019t the Estimates debate. This is a very technical debate that does specific things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat it does is it looks at the wash-up that needs to be done. Now, the need for these\u2014if you\u2019d only listened to the previous speaker Nicola Willis\u2019 speech, you\u2019d think this was some kind of anomaly, where we\u2019re here in the House debating this bill, and that somehow this was a fix-up, because Government hadn\u2019t done things correctly. In fact, these go back to 1989 and are a standard practice of the way in which Governments operate, in terms of the need between the expenditure that occurs between the setting of the Budget and the passing of the bill that brings that into law and also the things that change over the period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d just like to take on some of the matters that the previous speaker raised. So she said that already we\u2019re back here in this House and we\u2019re having to correct mistakes, and she used the example of tertiary education. It\u2019s actually good to have an opportunity to actually talk about why it is that sometimes appropriations change. As some members of this House who have been involved in this will know, the Budget-setting processes happen late in the year, prior to the Budget being read. In this case, if we\u2019re talking about Vote Tertiary Education, one of the critical inputs into decision making around that is the enrolment forecast that our universities come forward with. Universities every year\u2014and people who have had dealings with the sector and who have talked to universities in their own patches will know this. They will know that sometimes universities track very closely to what those enrolments are looking like. They have to make a forecast, and when they come to say what the student achievement component of funding will be, when they\u2019re speaking with their Minister around what that is, the Minister needs to rely on those forecasts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EActually, the bill that we have in front of us here actually tells the tale of two parts of this. What the announcement we saw today\u2014that those enrolment levels and those forecasts were not fulfilled, that there were not as many students enrolled at most universities. I say most, because, in fact, there was one university that did reach its enrolment forecast\u2014I\u2019d just like to give a shout-out to the University of Canterbury, if I can be a little bit parochial for a moment there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo we see that because of that, ours is a Government that has been willing to work with the sector to find solutions and put in place some ways in which we can remedy it. That is in no way an error on the part of the Government. So I think we just need to check our outrage at the door a little bit on the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other place where, of course, it\u2019s a really good example\u2014if we work our way through these documents, we can see underspends. It\u2019s not only in the funding that would go to universities that result from lower enrolments, but you also see it in terms of the payments for student allowance. Because when you have lower enrolments for students, there will also be lower payments paid out in terms of student allowance, and that is another area in this bill where we do see some adjustments being made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo these are important documents. They\u2019re important documents for any Government of the day to be able to make sure, because Estimates are just that\u2014Estimates are forecasts of what is going to be spent. Anyone who has managed a budget in any organisation knows that the actuals against forecasts can move around and that you need to have a process for tidying that up, and that is exactly what this process is about and has been the case since 1989. Sometimes, actually, there are as many as three imprest supply bills that are passed in a given year\u2014sometimes two, but sometimes as many as three. So before anyone gets too excited about that, I think that that\u2019s an important part to note.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think what this document does also show is it\u2019s an important document that chronicles, really, the responsive and agile way that our Government has responded to what happened in January in terms of the cyclone, the fact that there did need to be expenditure. It wasn\u2019t anticipated when that 2022-23 Budget was put together, when that 2022-23 Budget was passed. But none the less, this was an activity that the Government had to respond to. We needed to make sure that we had funding not only for some immediate repair work but also in terms of a range of supports for people in Auckland and on the East Coast and in other parts of New Zealand that were affected by those extreme weather events. You\u2019ll see that right back through these imprest supply and Supplementary Estimates documents. I\u2019m sure if you go back and look at those documents following the February earthquakes in Canterbury, you will see similar adjustments that had to be made because there were immediate things that needed to be done. I think anyone expects that every Government would come on to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe did see, from the deputy leader of the Opposition, the finance spokesperson of the National Party, a speech that was largely more about the Estimates. I found it a really depressing speech. If you were only to believe what was in that speech, that everything was terrible, that New Zealand was the worst place in the world to be\u2014it was so negative. I think that one of the things that I know, when I\u2019m out and about speaking to people, is that people acknowledge that it is really hard out there at the moment. People are doing it tough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut if we look at the facts, if we look at the evidence\u2014we had the previous speaker say that what was in these documents was driving inflation, it was spraying money around, it was leading to inflation that seemed to have no chance of ever coming down. That was the indication I got from the speech that I sat here and listened to. But, actually, if you listen to the economists, what we\u2019re hearing is most economists are now thinking that inflation has peaked, that we\u2019re looking at inflation coming down. It won\u2019t come down straight away, but we will look at it getting back into range in the coming months ahead, and that is a credit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef30f372c0cb4053b9e0118f30a3cca4\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Eh? Month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a69b789133d647a795df8d4f23278013\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, months as a plural, Mr Woodhouse. It has an \u201CS\u201D on the end of it. So if we look out over the next 12 months, the next year, that what we see is we have economists from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022734e276c45924c2eb38f9c0aa75c46e3\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: So years now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e086fb7fe647bdb0a2e7ae1969ac49\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: No; months, Mr Doocey. We have a look at the Westpac economists saying that interest has passed its peak\u2014and I think it\u2019s really, really unfortunate that we have an Opposition that seems to find that that\u2019s a negative thing, that inflation will begin to come down. We\u2019re seeing this globally. Because, of course, inflation\u2014and what we\u2019re seeing isn\u2019t something that is only being experienced in New Zealand. We\u2019re seeing that play out in countries around the world, and for New Zealand that is something that is really positive for us, that we will see that come down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut I think one of the things that has kept us going through this period in good shape is the fact that we still have those really low unemployment figures. That\u2019s one of the things that is threaded through all of our finance documents and reflects the incredibly hard work that our Minister of Finance has put in. It is not by accident that we have such low unemployment rates in New Zealand; it is because of a determined programme of work by our Government and led by our excellent Minister of Finance, the Hon Grant Robertson, that we have put at the centre of so much of our decision making how it is that we\u2019re going to ensure that people stay in work. That is important. It is fundamental. The name\u2019s on the tin for us on this side of the House: we are the Labour Party and work and jobs are important. I think back to those months in March 2020 when that was such an important consideration, and we can see that that has flowed through into these Supplementary Estimates. We can see it in the imprest supply that these are the important things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut I just would like to reiterate that this is standard practice. This is not an out-of-cycle bill that is being put to the House. This is what Governments have done since 1989. Each and every\u2014each and every\u2014Government has done it. It is a very technical debate. I think if you look through, as I did a couple of votes, you can see some really interesting threads to follow through, and it is important that we do that. These are difficult documents to deal with, the sheer bulk of them, but they do tell an important part and give an important insight into what is happening in the New Zealand economy. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002245e2e77067ac48869738c6223227668b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245e2e77067ac48869738c6223227668b\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, on the last point that the Hon Megan Woods made, I would certainly agree with that\u2014it\u2019s a bulky document; the document that underpins this bill runs into 1,024 pages. And it is a technical discussion, on one level, but I think it is appropriate to highlight the context to which Supplementary Estimates have been considered in the last two or three years, because it is about unders and overs but there\u2019s no doubt that since this Government came to office, there\u2019s been a heck of a lot more overs than unders. They run into the billions of dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIt would be fine if we could see the progress that was being made with that investment, but on nearly every single measure of performance, this country is going backwards: financially, economically, socially. So we do need to scrutinise the performance of the Government in setting and following Budgets, because I think the count is now six where we\u2019ve had a Budget Policy Statement which sets out the parameters of the spending of this Labour Government, and I think the score is six out of six for breaching the Budget Policy Statement constraints by the time the Budget is written. So it\u2019s not even as if the Supplementary Estimates were the problem\u2014they can\u2019t even stick to their own disciplines in setting the Budget. And, once again, we saw that in Budget 2023. I have no doubt\u2014well, actually, I do have extreme doubt that that will happen again, because the public will certainly pass judgment on that ill-discipline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, the other issue is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ba34cfada00421988ec7e3cf739e22f\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Good save.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214357a53a1614553b5c8bb282cd92b87\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, thank you, Mrs Collins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe other issue is, of course, the unders doesn\u2019t always mean it\u2019s a positive thing. The way in which the Budget is set provides the opportunity for there to be what are known as \u201Cmulti-year appropriations\u201D, which is operational spending that goes over a series of years. So it\u2019s not unusual\u2014and indeed, Vote Health has a plethora of them\u2014where underspends in one year are carried forward through the Supplementary Estimates of Appropriations. But the problem with that, and it is a bit masked in this document, is that it is falling considerably behind where the Government itself said it should have been in its investments, particularly around mental health. My colleague Matt Doocey has been prosecuting this extremely well by highlighting that of the new money in the $1.9 billion Budget announcement in 2019, some of it is still not spent four years later. New appropriations for mental health that should have had projects well advanced by now are still on the whiteboard. They haven\u2019t even got off the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo we can\u2019t even say that underspending in this Budget is actually a positive thing, because what we really judge the Government by is their ability to get things done and their ability to improve the lives of New Zealanders. After all, they call them \u201CWellbeing Budgets\u201D. Well, I think people, again, will make their own judgments about whether their wellbeing has been enhanced in the last 5\u00BD years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance, in introducing the bill, talked about this being limits, not targets. And that\u2019s true, except he doesn\u2019t seem to act like it because he sets the targets so high that it\u2019s almost impossible to meet. And that is the manifestation of the imprest supply bill. Now, I am pleased to note that this year the huge slush fund that they gave themselves in 2021, and a slightly less huge slush fund in 2022, is not being repeated in the imprest supply. As members should be aware, this is the authorisation to spend in the meantime while the main Budget bill is being deliberated on. But buried in amongst the $30 billion\u2014I think it is\u2014of appropriations is an allowance to account for \u201Cadditional material risks\u201D and the uneven timing of expenses within votes. That\u2019s code for \u201CIt\u2019s a new bit of money for stuff we haven\u2019t thought of spending on yet, but we could in that period.\u201D, and it\u2019s $4.3 billion. Now, that might seem high, but actually it\u2019s considerably lower than it was two years ago, and so it should have been. I have criticised the Government for the extraordinary amount of, effectively, slush funds that they give themselves in the imprest supply bill, so it is pleasing to note that that has gone down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut what hasn\u2019t gone down\u2014if we return to the Supplementary Estimates of Appropriations\u2014is how much this country is spending on servicing debt. On page 431 of the document, we find that the appropriation for, basically, interest\u2014the cost of financing this spending has gone up by $752 million. That\u2019s three-quarters of a billion dollars. So by the end of this financial year, we will have spent $5.32 billion servicing the debt that this Government has incurred over the last few years. Remember, our net core sovereign debt when they came to office was less than $6 billion, and now it\u2019s nearly $800 billion\u2014and that\u2019s an offset, because the gross sovereign debt is around $214 billion. We are heading towards the sorts of appropriations to pay for the interest on that. That is double the police Vote, it\u2019s double what we spend on early childhood education, or at least the Crown spends on it. So the higher that figure goes, the harder it will be to spend taxpayer money on the things that taxpayers want us to be spending on, and that is: keeping them safe, growing export markets, supporting those people who are in need through jobseeker supports and other benefits, supporting our elderly, maintaining our health services. Every dollar we spend on extra debt that is being incurred would be dollars that we wouldn\u2019t be spending on those other things\u2014if the Government had the fiscal discipline to stick to its own Budget Policy Statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo I get back to the original point: we are now at risk of coming into a vicious cycle of spend and pay for the debt through interest and having to borrow more, increasing our interest bill, and so on. We are in something of a cycle and a spiral that doesn\u2019t appear to have a limit, so I\u2019m particularly concerned about borrowing expenses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m particularly concerned about the huge amount of money that we spend on vaccine costs. That was an extra appropriation\u2014nearly $886 million purchasing potential and proven COVID-19 vaccines and other therapeutics. I\u2019m not worried because we spent the money, I\u2019m worried because they\u2019re expiring in warehouses up and down the country. As we have found out, 17 million COVID vaccines are now expiring. So it\u2019s a valid question to ask the Minister of Health: why on earth did we spend nearly $887 million on more vaccines at the same time as 17 million vaccines were going to waste? That suggests to me a ministry that has not got control of its stocks and does not know what\u2019s going on in its portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThere are a number\u2014I would go into the transport Vote, I probably don\u2019t have enough time, but there is a tremendous amount of money not being spent on transport issues. And when I see that the estimated amount to be spent on activities under the National Land Transport Programme as authorised by blah-blah-blah has gone down by $1.2 billion nearly, then I think there are serious questions that need to be asked about whether the funding that is taken in by NZTA through fuel excise is actually being spent. Because if we\u2019ve got more than a billion dollars on National Land Transport Programme funds being underspent, then serious questions need to be asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EYes, it\u2019s technical, and, yes, it\u2019s necessary to keep the Government going, but there are significant questions about the quality of the spend and the lack of outcome that the taxpayer is getting for it. And we will continue to point those things out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227b7e85cc9833405ab86a7b009802ec61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b7e85cc9833405ab86a7b009802ec61\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a call in the debate on the Supplementary Estimates. Can I begin by thanking all of the select committees that dealt with the separate Estimates, committee by committee, and reported back to Parliament; and too the officials who serviced those select committees, including those from Government departments, but also from the Audit Office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI hear, from the Opposition, claims about a blowout in expenditure that is being poorly spent by the Government. They use nominal figures, which do show that, in nominal figures, Government spending has increased by tens of billions of dollars. Of course, nominal GDP, which you should compare expenditure with, has also increased hugely\u2014in 2017, nominal GDP was $275 billion. This year, it\u2019s over $400 billion, so the economy has grown from the start of the period when we took Government of $275 billion\u2014and a few hundred million\u2014to over $400 billion projected for this year. Indeed, the forecast as at the time of the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update for the year ended 30 June 2024 was $415 billion, and it will be there or thereabouts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo those numbers don\u2019t mean much to people; they\u2019re enormous numbers, and the House is better to consider core Crown expenses as a percentage of GDP in order to assess whether there\u2019s been a massive explosion in Government spending. Core crown expenses\u2014and I\u2019ll use a slightly different time series here\u2014in 2013, under the National Party, five years after the global financial crisis, the core Crown expenditure was 32 percent of GDP. This year, it\u2019s projected to be 33 percent of GDP. Now, it\u2019s true that, in the intervening years after 2013, National did drop expenditure as a percentage of GDP, because that\u2019s what National Governments do\u2014they have a fixation on reducing Government expenditure. Wise use of Government expenditure is always appropriate, but I can recall a speech of the then Minister of Finance\u2014or he might have been, actually, by then, Prime Minister\u2014in Australia, where he said his prime indicator of whether he was doing a good job was whether he was dropping Government expenditure as a percentage of GDP; that was his driver. From the point of view of the Labour Party, by the end of that period, when they had dropped expenditure further, we had virtually no new hospitals built\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212e7bf1787c44a09815df828047d8db3\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Waikato Hospital was rebuilt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e0a2d703c64706ab9a5c3a3f319d73\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269a08c12401f4ea19860897c4e96df73\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Waikato Hospital was rebuilt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8ce669b509a4a0d9700347df5110f41\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Waikato Hospital was rebuilt, that was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb4e5f6268e44d5a8be34dbc19a0fe9\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: That was under us!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022748428f8d8a046dd8e32c449ffed49b5\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: No, it wasn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa6650e5fbe459ea1d61e0aeba31426\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I committed the funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ea39aee432478792df4f0b60e6c3bf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: So we heard, then, from the list member for Hamilton, claiming credit for the Waikato Hospital build, when it was the Labour Government that funded it because the capital funding hadn\u2019t been provided by the National Government. And, indeed, the Hon David Clark just interjected to confirm that he was the Minister that authorised the expenditure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of other issues, of course, they ran down housing\u2014and we had questions in the House today about housing. The number of State houses in New Zealand or public houses decreased under the term of the National Government, because they didn\u2019t spend on them, and, in fact, they sold them off. They sold off the capital stock\u2014they rented a few more; but they sold off and used the capital that they realised from those sales to put into other things, which is why, by the time they left office, they had less funding. They froze the funding for the police: in inflation-adjusted terms, they \u201Cdefunded\u201D the police. The so-called \u201Cparty of law and order\u201D defunded the police\u2014the National - ACT Government\u2014and by the end of their period they had fewer police officers employed by the Government than was the case earlier, which is why we\u2019ve reversed that and now have more than 1,800 more police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of debt levels: in my opinion, New Zealand hasn\u2019t had a fiscally irresponsible Government since the Muldoon government, when debt increased hugely, and it was on an unsustainable trajectory and there was no route back to surplus. The next Labour Government, the Lange-Douglas Government, got debt under control. The following Bolger Government continued that trend. The following Clark-Cullen Government probably had the best record of anyone: nine surpluses in a row which reduced net debt to\u2014on the current measure\u2014zero; in fact, we had net assets and well-funded public services as well. Then the last Government, they had to deal with the global financial crisis and the Canterbury earthquake rebuild, but they so reduced taxes that actually, during the period of their Government, net debt increased, for a start, quite substantially\u2014before it reduced towards the end of their term. And they left office with net debt, excluding the super fund, at 18.7 percent. I\u2019m reading the Budget documents here, Mr Bennett. You could read them; you pretend to be an accountant, but I don\u2019t hear you actually opening up the Budget documents\u2014referring to the actual documents\u2014rather than making superficial, inaccurate comments that show your ignorance when it comes to the matter of public finances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7f6f64b72af48a1833285086788af6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7f6f64b72af48a1833285086788af6f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. The member is very much aware of Helen Clark\u2019s last Budget, and the deficits they left behind\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bcf3087fc7c4273afcab9402975bf63\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I\u2019m sorry\u2014if the member is going to engage in vociferous debate, then that will, obviously, open the range of ability for a speaker on the other side to actually respond. Be aware. Carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228164b8985c4b47778f2f620c1399aac5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. So when we took office, net debt, excluding the super fund, was 18.7 percent, and net debt, including the benefit of the assets in the super fund, was 5.9 percent of GDP. That\u2019s the 2017 figures. In 2018, net debt decreased to 3.8 percent under a Labour administration before COVID, and net debt, excluding the super fund, decreased to 17.2 percent. It\u2019s the same the next year again: in the year ended in 2019, net debt, excluding the super fund, was 16.4 percent\u2014again down\u2014and net debt, including the super fund, was down to 1.8 percent. Then COVID hit, and COVID is the reason why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022791dec3f272e4601baf949c5c02e2663\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8743c82761e46dfb3020459419eb6a0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, they say no\u2014you know, the biggest increases in governance expenditure during those years were the expenditure on COVID support payments. There were lots of other supports that were necessary in the economy as well, but the biggest one was the wage supports that were paid through businesses. Those businesses were saved, partly because their employment costs were defrayed without laying off their staff. To this day, this country benefits from that, because even in the midst of a technical recession, unemployment is low\u2014is it 3.4 or 3.3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022960e63f8a57540f491c898007eff18c6\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: 3.4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b1debc34ae345a5a63e785616fca8b5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u20143.4 percent unemployment: very low by the standards of New Zealand and lower than a lot of the countries that we compare ourselves to. Now, what happens going forward? Well, core Government expenditure as a percentage of GDP did go up to 34.6 percent of GDP in the year ended 2022. It has since dropped 33 percent of GDP this year, and drops further to 32.3 percent the year following, 32 percent the year after that, and 31.5 percent. And I again compare that to 2013\u2014when it was 32 percent. What exaggerated rhetoric that we have from the Opposition, trying to present those facts as irresponsible spending on the part of a Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673e86c01d3242e5836486ba36a896a8\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: Very irresponsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d85c2bf01dc045dc9adc3481be770dd5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, \u201Cvery irresponsible\u201D, we hear from the member for Tauranga. You never hear them talking about these percentages of GDP, because they\u2019d rather talk about the gross numbers, and, as I say, those gross numbers are hard for people to interpret given that GDP has risen from 2017, $275 billion to $415 billion forecast for this 2023/24 year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the Supplementary Estimates, other members have covered those in detail. I do note that the Supplementary Order Paper which has been presented\u2014which I\u2019m sure that Minister Robertson has spoken to or will speak to\u2014has a single item in it, which is unusual, but it relates to the storm events and there is $500 million set aside for Crown payments to local authorities and other eligible stakeholders. That, of course, is something that is not the fault of the Labour Government, although it is our responsibility to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00225a9e43b0425f44f69b679a4377b3f709\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a9e43b0425f44f69b679a4377b3f709\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party on the Appropriations (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. The key thing with a bill of this nature is the key word, \u201Cappropriate\u201D. That\u2019s what it\u2019s about, and this mechanism allows the Parliament to authorise Government expenditure and expenses of Government. But is this actually appropriate, given how it\u2019s being done? We accept that the goal of a Budget and this bill is to change things\u2014no Budget is perfect, but, jeez, there\u2019s some spin going on today about what\u2019s actually happening, and we wanted to punch a few holes into that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EWe are in a background today where Minister Woods, Minister Parker keep talking about labour and unemployment. Westpac today published that the dream is coming to an end, where unemployment rates are going up and job ads are going down. We just aren\u2019t moving, and we have a situation where now we have to interpret a 1,200 page document\u2014the Robertson Da Vinci Code. Then we\u2019ve got the\u2014and I\u2019ve always wanted to say this\u2014the \u201Cpickety pocket or two\u201D approach by our Minister of Revenue, who seems to tax us further and harder and deeper, and the harder we work the more we\u2019re going to get taxed. There isn\u2019t a lot of empathy or sympathy on that side of the House for rising costs and rising interest rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EYou know, if you look at this amount of cash, it\u2019s big bags of cash. If you took it as US$100 bills, I just wonder, on those three planes that are going to China like some sort of narco deal, would you be able to fit this cash in the plane and get it out of here, and then just drop it on the economy and add to inflation? But let\u2019s look at those bags of cash: $30 billion of expenditure in advance of the appropriation bill to many departments\u2019 operating expenses. Another $9 billion in capital expenses is what we\u2019re facing. It\u2019s essentially to keep the lights on for the months between the start of the financial year until the appropriation bill is eventually passed. It shows the impact of inflation under Grant Robertson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EIn 2017 and 2018, the similar imprest bill was only for $7 billion, and capital spending of $5.5 billion. It shows how this Government is so spendthrift and how Minister Robertson is one of the most extravagant finance Ministers in New Zealand history. The sheer margin of this bill is notable. We\u2019ve just had a Budget, and already its estimates and assumptions are incorrect. How does that work? And as an example of that, the 20 hours free for two-year-olds was a promise that looked good for the media, only no policy work had been done before they rushed out with it. If the Government had spent half as much time doing the policy work and engaged in the early childhood education (ECE) sector as they did on the political communications, then the Budget announcement wouldn\u2019t have been such a debacle. So, really, we don\u2019t know how much that 20 hours of ECE policy would cost, because the Robertson Budget was just numbers on the back of an envelope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ESince the Budget, we\u2019ve had another big hole, a fiscal hole in the Government\u2019s finances, with the collapse of the second emissions trading scheme (ETS) auction. At least half a billion dollars down the drain because the Government got the ETS estimates so bloody wrong, not once but twice. Labour said that climate change is the challenge of our generation, but they\u2019ve crashed the ETS not once but twice. To crash an auction once is a sign the seller got the market wrong; to do it twice requires a special level of incompetence. But because the credits unsold will transfer over to the next auction, it\u2019s likely that this crash as well will have, within five weeks of this Budget, a likelihood of a billion-dollar hole. How can we have, within five weeks of this Budget, a billion-dollar fiscal hole?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe falling student enrolments, as mentioned earlier, and efficiencies of many New Zealand universities, have been known for a while. It was obvious that some New Zealand universities were under financial pressure, yet within five weeks of the Budget the Government runs out with a $128 million bailout\u2014and it is a bailout. Let\u2019s call it what it is. This was on top of a massive $180 million initiative for new enrolments to 2025, and $521 million for tertiary tuition fees for providers. Thankfully, we\u2019re not being expected to undertake further funding of the disastrous public amalgamation which has already burned up another $220 million in the Budget. There\u2019s another billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe Budget, just five weeks ago, forecasted the economy would grow. I would like to put it on the record in the House today, because it needs to be said, we now have the \u201CRobertson recession\u201D. With what appears to be long-term stagflation because of this Government\u2019s addiction to spending and debt, the Budget\u2019s predicted that the Government would be $7 billion in deficit. It\u2019s safe to say that this estimate was wildly optimistic and that debt levels are already looking to go well past that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe Government is now planning to borrow more than $10 million\u2014more than forecast in the half-year update to December just seven months ago. Unemployment\u2019s rising. Job ads are going down. Inflation is going nowhere. And housing rates are happening for longer. Meanwhile, we\u2019ve still got the problem children that are inside this Budget: Auckland Light Rail, KiwiRail, our health system, our COVID response and the tail end of that, and this is having an effect on our coffers. How much \u201CMr Piketty Pocket or Two\u201D can bring taxes in, it\u2019s not going to balance the books\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272ed4cc0a41e4f9fbd4ed246b93752f8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Smith, this is a broad-ranging debate, relatively, but you have gone beyond the parameters. Could you come back, please, to relating it to the appropriations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3a6bfecd13c487aa71524bc95749913\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. This is the second time the member has referred to the Minister of Finance as a \u201Cpickpocket\u201D, which I think is out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d0227d8cab44c41a52ad76b357f70b8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, this has been a relatively robust debate. I will ask Mr Smith\u2014I\u2019ve now brought you back to the bill, please, and so if you just reflect the comments that have been made today, and just reflect back to the bill, please. I won\u2019t order on that, but just\u2014decorum of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230fc3216266e4913a922836a1892b143\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I would like to clear up that I did not call the finance Minister a pickpocket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0589198f44843628847f59dffb0a097\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, rather than get into who said what, can you just continue with your speech, please, under the parameters that I\u2019ve laid out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c55d17ad73204223a6156137b21f72fb\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: He just steals it from the front; he doesn\u2019t bother hiding it in the pocket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a8b8dc4bc394ae0ae70bef54e06dab5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Doocey, I\u2019m ruling on a point of order. You will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c41850fc1c714fa091e03f7aaaaad7c3\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225fd8ad63a7f42ba9a8bb37d4d222a7c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, has everyone had enough? Right, Mr Smith, under those guidelines could you continue your speech please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b313bc3e75104a68a0c6aa4d1cb8c23f\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: So with the appropriations bill, ACT will not support this bill, but it will support the expenditure in the Supplementary Order Paper to provide certainty for those affected regions. The Government can have confidence in us from that point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EBack to my earlier point, which is that an appropriations bill is about appropriate spending. Within five weeks of this Budget, the whole spending profile has been thrown out the window, and it\u2019s not over yet. We would like to see some fiscal discipline injected into this Government\u2019s approach in the next six weeks, to really ensure that New Zealanders can be confident in the expenditures of the Government\u2014that it\u2019s all appropriate and that it\u2019s not just a Budget for the sake of it; it\u2019s a Budget that actually means something, because it has been a Budget that has let the nation down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022d530cc882984482f9cb81707a7c55495\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d530cc882984482f9cb81707a7c55495\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. As the Hon Megan Woods said earlier\u2014I believe, in the second or third speech in this debate this afternoon\u2014what we\u2019re not debating is the Budget. What we are debating is, of course, the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. To that effect, what it is that we\u2019re talking about is not anticipated spending but adjustments that have to be made in light of particularly unprecedented events such as, for example, as highlighted, flooding and cyclone events. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHowever, I think it is important to note, as many other speakers have in their contributions thus far, that all of the decisions made in here with regard to spending, and actually also the decisions that have been made to not spend in certain areas, are, of course, fundamentally political decisions. And to that effect, to those following along at home who may not be particularly familiar with the work of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014the wonderful committee that it is\u2014and the levers that are available to us as a Parliament and the levers that are available to the Reserve Bank\u2014because there\u2019s been much made of, for example, increasing mortgage rates\u2014I think it\u2019s really important to kind of outline what those levers are that are available and how they work hand-in-glove, or are supposed to work hand-in-glove, together as economic levers at our disposal through requisite authorities that, of course, are empowered by the legislation of this place, our Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo fiscal policy is, of course, the stuff that the Government does. It is largely tax and spend. And even for members of the Opposition, I think they would agree and understand that Governments of all stripes do that thing of taxing and spending, and that again belies the kinds of behaviour that we want to incentivise inside our economy. As the Minister, the Hon David Parker, has made much of over the past few years, actually subsequent to the former National Government\u2019s tax switch of increasing GST and decreasing income rates, that has resulted in changes in behaviour inside of our economy and some of that distortionary impact, which in turn has perhaps seen that aggregation of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHowever, Madam Speaker\u2014just noting for those following along at home that we have the change of Speaker\u2014fiscal policy is the stuff that the Government does. Monetary policy is the stuff that the Reserve Bank, our central bank does, and of course the main lever at our Reserve Bank\u2019s disposal is the official cash rate (OCR), the ability to raise or to lower that. And we saw throughout our time in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, in the many hearings that we have had with the Reserve Bank, on record from the Reserve Bank Governor at the end of last year, an intention, as noted by Adrian Orr, to aggressively pursue the increasing of the official cash rate to\u2014what he said in his own words, when I put that to him\u2014\u201Cmanufacture a recession\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThat is why it was a little bit confusing when we had seen those projections from the Treasury off the back of the Budget documents released a few months ago now\u2014that we had a projection from Treasury that we would see the OCR remaining stable at that point. Obviously, just subsequent to that, we saw an increase of 0.25 basis points\u2014but there was going to continue being this aggressive line pursued by the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (RBNZ). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ERBNZ, of course, has a mandate that is twofold. The first is around financial stability and the second is around maximum sustainable employment. Just on that point, I think it would be remiss of me not to address the points made by the honourable member from the ACT Party Damien Smith about hard work and about who is rewarded for hard work in this economy and the society and the rules that we have put in place. And to that effect, I\u2019d just really like to make it really, really clear that what we\u2019re talking about, when we\u2019re talking about hard work, is those who were at the front lines during our COVID-19 response throughout the pandemic, those who are out there working hard every single day and actually don\u2019t necessarily see the benefits of it in terms of the income that\u2019s afforded to them\u2014our teachers, our nurses, our firefighters, and our front-line emergency workers. So when we\u2019re talking about hard work in the context of the high-wealth individuals report, I\u2019d just really like for members to be really explicit about what it is that they\u2019re talking about and define what it is that they mean when they\u2019re talking about hard work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve heard from many, particularly in the context of the Supplementary Estimates that we\u2019re debating this afternoon, about unprecedented impacts. And here again, it\u2019d be remiss of me not to mention what\u2019s just been occurring on the East Coast just over this weekend with the state of emergency. Once again, we are seeing climate change - charged weather events continuing to ravage cities and towns and communities and homes and wh\u0101nau across this country. And I think that that\u2019s where it\u2019s really the place of this House to actually reconcile with the reality that this stuff just is not unprecedented any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe have the science very clearly, as we have had for decades, that if we continue to behave and operate our economies in the way that we presently are, then we will continue to see far more greenhouse gas emissions put into the atmosphere, which in turn will continue to supercharge these already climate change - charged weather events. And to that effect, speaking about the quality of spending or the types of spending that we\u2019d like to see undertaken, I\u2019ve noted that many have spoken about how we need to shift the focus from mitigation to, for example, adaptation. To those, we in the Greens say that genuine mitigation is in fact adaptation, not least, as the Hon Michael Woodhouse put in his contributions, when we\u2019re talking about transport, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIf we want a resilient transport network, it is one that decarbonises and provides those transport opportunities for New Zealanders across our towns and cities and, indeed, in our rural landscapes as well. To that effect, all spending actually has to be climate spending because, unfortunately, unlike many in this space who like to pretend there is a trade-off between the economy and the environment, it so happens that the economy exists within the environment and that jobs happen on the planet. We need to consider these things, of course, holistically. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAnd, again, to that effect, we\u2019ve heard a lot in this debate about GDP, a metric which, obviously, was refined by Simon Kuznets in the early 1900s, who took it to the US Congress and was like: hey, here\u2019s a really good way to measure economic transactions inside of the economy, but, God forbid, do not use it as a measure of what he called welfare, and what we now call wellbeing, of those who operate and live in our communities. The reason for that is that GDP is simply a measure of economic transactions. It doesn\u2019t measure the distribution of those transactions, the quality of them, or if we even want them to occur in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EGDP goes up when there is a natural disaster, such as we\u2019ve experienced across the North Island over the first six months of this year. GDP goes up when there is a car crash, when somebody gets cancer, because there has to be economic transactions in order to undo that social ill. That perhaps is the underlying perversity in those very Treasury projections with regard to GDP and with regard to how they had projected, as the member from the ACT Party noted, that we would avoid the technical recession that we are now in\u2014ironically and perversely, by virtue of those climate change - charged weather events and the Government spending that was necessary to do the clean-up and the wash-up subsequent to it. That, again, is why we need to be looking at all of this stuff far more holistically and why the Greens consistently plead for us to have this climate lens to all of that spending that we as a Parliament are undertaking. Of course, that is precisely what it is that we are debating this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIf I may, just finally in wrapping up this contribution, which is the sole contribution for the Greens in this part of the debate on the bill\u2014earlier today throughout this debate, we heard from the deputy leader of the Opposition, Nicola Willis. She was prosecuting largely the same point inside of question time earlier today\u2014making the point that in a recession, technical or otherwise as it may be, we shouldn\u2019t be looking to redistribute wealth and making the point that now would be a terrible time to impose, for example, an asset tax or a wealth tax or capital gains tax or otherwise; of course, completely neglecting the history of this very country where fewer than 100 years ago, in the midst of a Great Depression, there was the introduction of the Social Security Act 1938, which led to a pretty much guaranteed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228af710df9867401bba54f16db4cf4461\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: It was actually at the end of the Depression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d47e2f80f23c4ea39015e1322c166455\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014standard of living for most New Zealanders and decades of prosperity, the Hon Judith Collins. That was paid for off the back of taxes imposed on those who had profited handsomely during a time that was incredibly challenging for many. It was the foundation of the social contract to say that all of us are in this together and actually you don\u2019t end up with freedom of choice inside of an economy, inside of a society, if you don\u2019t have access to those basic economic means for all of those who live within it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo when we have IRD research that\u2019s telling us that the top 311 families in this country own more wealth than the bottom 2.5 million New Zealanders combined and that they also pay a lower effective tax rate, less than half of what the average New Zealander pays\u2014all of this is exposed. All of this is exposed to be simply a matter of political decisions and a reflection of the values of this House. The Greens are incredibly clear that we stand for people and planet. And while the Government has made some good moves in some good directions, there\u2019s far more mahi to do. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002209863218a05e4e1aa5ecf324e7273eb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209863218a05e4e1aa5ecf324e7273eb0\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m so glad that the previous speaker, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, mentioned Michael Joseph Savage, because my father was one of the first beneficiaries of that social security system. Their family home burnt down, his mother was looking after six children, and they were able to be housed. Later on, he was able to win a scholarship to go to university, and that transformed the chances for my family. So I\u2019m really glad that the previous speaker raised that, but it\u2019s time for some myth-busting, because some of the claims from the other side of the House have been, quite frankly, outrageous. First of all, let\u2019s be clear: the appropriation bill that is going through today, the Supplementary Estimates, is business as usual. This is a normal course of events in the budgetary cycle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe second myth: that somehow this Government is sloshing money around. We\u2019ve heard from the Hon David Parker that the correct measure, and I agree, is core Crown expenses as a percentage of GDP. Let\u2019s go back to 2013: it was 32 percent; 2023 it is 33 percent. But what really galls is the notion that National and ACT somehow care for struggling New Zealanders. The difference is that they say that they are astute financial managers. I could save $100 a week if I was on a low income and say that I was an astute financial manager and I could send my children to school without lunch and without shoes and put them to bed in a poor, cold house, or I could look after them. So the idea that they say that fiscal discipline is needed\u2014their fiscal discipline, in my view, is negative, wet, whining, and actually rigid as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMay I also refer to the point made by Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick around the official cash rate and some of the conclusions that she made there. It was raised in the debate. There have been official cash rate rises; that lever has been used, along with a number of levers, to take the pain out of inflation. Those levers are working. Treasury predicts that we will reach target inflation, by 2 to 3 percent, at the end of next year. So just a point, really, that those levers are working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, I can see you looking at me, wanting me to go to the Supplementary Estimates, and can I just say it is a wide-ranging debate, but what I feel is that this is around a Government that listens versus a very rigid, negative, and whiny approach. We have seen it before, because the Opposition refuse to acknowledge that things happen in life after things have been budgeted for. Any household knows that, any mother who runs a household budget knows that, any business owner knows that, and that is why the appropriations are \u201Cestimates\u201D and that is why there is a clean-up at the end: to account for the money, to explain the change, and also to explain any change in performance indicators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, the Opposition may like to pretend things haven\u2019t happened but, in fact, there has been COVID, there has been a pandemic of inflation, there has been cost of living pressures, the war in Ukraine, and look what difference that made. The war in Ukraine directly led to the petrol excise reduction of 25 percent; that would not have happened without the war in Ukraine. That is why we need the Supplementary Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIf we look at the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF), which was raised by Nicola Willis in her contribution, I sat in the select committee that did the scrutiny of that, and it is fair for the Auditor-General to say that there needs to be adequate accounting for money, but the system itself does not allow for a quantifiable opportunity cost to be measured. It is very easy to sit with the benefit of hindsight and look at the systems that were used, without taking into account what would have happened to those communities if the money have not gone out the door.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, the Auditor-General\u2019s office said, \u201CYes, you know, that\u2019s why we haven\u2019t been so tough in our comments.\u201D There is no way, currently, in the system to numerate and quantify that. That is one of the issues with the system, and I can guarantee you that there were communities that would have fallen over, that were really struggling, where that PGF money made a significant difference, particularly to marae around the areas, and certainly in my own electorate in Taieri, where PGF funding has contributed to projects that are going to make a significant difference to those communities, kept people employed, kept the construction sector going, and kept unemployment low. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, if we look at what National would do, the last time there was a cost of living crisis National said they needed austerity. In 2012, instead of being flexible, instead of being able to provide flexibility to support struggling people, they imposed privatisation, job cuts, a tax on welfare and education; they gutted the Hillside Workshops in my own electorate of Taieri, which led to job loss; they actually gave tax cuts to the rich, which significantly impacted on poorer New Zealanders; and they increased the GST rate, which is regressive. All of this had a massive\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4222bc49e344237812acaa8eff26a5d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! If the member can just come back to this appropriations bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a6ad3cc84d346f1bf282d7445548ed4\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Sure, thank you, Madam Speaker. My point, really, around this appropriation is there needs to be flexibility in the system, and the flexibility does need to be applied with discipline, as it has been, but if there is a rigid approach taken, as there was by the National Government in 2012, it leads to austerity and the social scarring that our finance Minister has spoken about so often. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESomebody has raised the fact that the universities have received $128 million of funding today. That is fantastic. That is an example of a supplementary appropriation that has been brought about by need, and it is an example of a Government that has listened. I just want to acknowledge, today, all those in my electorate and the electorate of the Hon Dr David Clark who have been grappling with the spectre of redundancy. I am hoping that this will put their minds at ease, because, actually, somebody said that this was foreseeable\u2014I think it was Damien Smith\u2014in fact, the Budget gave the university sector a 5 percent budget increase, which is a significant increase. What wasn\u2019t taken into account when that Budget appropriation was happening was the numbers that would drop off, both from COVID, from inflation, but also the very tight labour market that we find ourselves in. So it is absolutely appropriate to be able to respond flexibly and provide additional funding so that those thought leaders in our community, those institutions of thought leadership, can continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIf I look at Otago University, it is the jewel in the crown of Otago and it will, with the new Dunedin hospital, remain the jewel in the crown because it positions our city as being a leading city for medical leadership and education. So it\u2019s really important that we do have those institutions. I was listening this morning to Andrew Geddis on national radio do a really interesting piece around electoral reform and the work that he\u2019s done sitting on that panel. Now, that is the sort of thought leadership that universities can provide. We need to look after them, and in this case the Government has done that. But it is not doing that in an undisciplined way. It has also introduced a review on the higher education funding system. That\u2019s entirely appropriate given that we find a number of universities in the same boat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo, just to re-emphasise, really, this is business as usual. This is about Budgets being disciplined but having enough flex to respond to situations like pandemics, like weather events, like foreign wars, like inflation, which is being felt globally. That\u2019s what this appropriation does. If we look at the alternative, which is to think that budgeting is somehow a perfect mathematical science\u2014that there should be no flex, no wiggle room; only austerity, only cuts as a way to respond\u2014that is going to leave not only struggling New Zealanders but middle New Zealanders behind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo there are two choices, and our side of the House has very clearly shown that an ability to listen, and to budget in a disciplined way but listen to the electorate and respond where it\u2019s appropriate, is the right way to approach the Budget and the Supplementary Estimates. That\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re seeing here now. The amount budgeted in the Supplementary Estimates is actually lower than it has been for a number of years, for the reasons that other speakers have said. So I just hope that listeners out there realise this is business as usual, that it suits the National Party to try to say that they are astute fiscal managers when their astute fiscal management, in my view, takes no account of wellbeing, takes no account of whether a child is sent to school with shoes on or whether they live in a warm, dry home. So there\u2019s nothing more to say. It\u2019s a great bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228184b687711c41f5a70d6be2521aa217\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228184b687711c41f5a70d6be2521aa217\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on Sam Uffindell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u002225752288f3ff45f8b2fed93c94981fcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225752288f3ff45f8b2fed93c94981fcf\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would refute that last comment by the previous speaker, Ingrid Leary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228040caf6b1f5409e94f65caaea54d972\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Refute the whole speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d987b9a11edf4f5aa0ab6de6c8656521\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL\u003C/span\u003E: I would probably do that as well\u2014thank you, Mr Bennett\u2014around this Government and their astute approach, as it was called! Let\u2019s make sure the Hansard includes the sarcasm on that\u2014that they are astute managers of the economy and looking after people. The way you look after people is to run the economy properly, keep inflation down, and keep the cost of living down, and it\u2019s through a growing economy that you can then deliver the services that people need. We\u2019ve seen six years of blown Budgets under this Government, and this is another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EAs we look through the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill\u2014it\u2019s a bit of a mouthful\u2014what do we see? We see another blown Budget under this Government. And we haven\u2019t seen anything in here to address the issues that are coming up. We don\u2019t see any attempts to address the significant spending that this Government is undertaking. We don\u2019t see anything to address the significant Government spending\u2014the back-office spending. There\u2019s no public service delivery targets. There\u2019s a continuation of what I would call poor spending after poor spending. And we\u2019ve seen operational spending up 80 percent since 2017, and I would challenge anyone in New Zealand whether they have seen an 80 percent lift in public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EI just want to run over a few figures so it\u2019s perfectly clear for everyone\u2014and I\u2019m sure there are many\u2014watching at home around the situation here. Pre-COVID, net debt\u2014which is a term that\u2019s often used these days\u2014was $5.4 billion. The Treasury forecast for 2024 is that it will be at $91.2 billion. That is a significant sum and interest needs to be paid on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWhen you\u2019re Moody\u2019s and Standard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s and you\u2019re looking at how New Zealand is managing the economy\u2014and they are looking at it, and they are starting to suggest that we need to get a little bit of a wriggle on and take the situation seriously or we may face a downgrade. The way things are looking, interest repayments will be our fourth-biggest expenditure going forward\u2014after social welfare payments and super, after health, after education, it will then be interest repayments. That\u2019s a really poor place to get to. Kiwis work really hard and they didn\u2019t get a lot out of this Budget, and they certainly don\u2019t want to see their hard-earned tax dollars going towards paying down a very big debt that this Government has built up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve been in deficit for a while now. We\u2019re not expected to get back into surplus until 2026, under this Government\u2014it\u2019s only a minor one: half a billion. And I\u2019m sure that won\u2019t actually eventuate because we\u2019ve seen it blown every time, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe heard core Crown expenses get mentioned today. I just want to go over some figures, here, because, in 2017, core Crown expenses, according to the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update, were $76.3 billion. The Estimates for next year are at $137 billion, and that is a significant increase in spending with very little delivery. This piece of legislation shows that this Government doesn\u2019t have a plan to tackle the real issues, which is the cost of living crisis, it\u2019s the inflation which we heard was transitory\u2014it clearly is not; it is set in. We are in recession. The papers and the Government don\u2019t like to talk about it much, but we are in recession. Our peer countries are not in recession, but New Zealand is in recession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ESo National has a plan to get us out of recession. It has a plan to deal with the cost of living crisis. It has a plan to restore fiscal discipline. It has a plan to provide tax relief to hard-earning New Zealanders who are doing it really tough in the middle of a cost of living crisis. We\u2019ve got a plan to lift incomes. And we know that sound economic management is what we need if we are going to be able to afford the healthcare, the education, the police, the justice, and the defence services that New Zealand desperately needs. If we are going to be able to build the infrastructure that we need, then we are going to have to get our books into order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen it six times in a row: this finance Minister and this Government are not capable of delivering the stability and the sound fiscal management that New Zealand needs. I thought Nicola Willis spoke extremely well in her speech earlier today\u2014number two speaker\u2014and I really look forward to her, hopefully, taking the reins soon, because we are in crisis at the moment. We are in a crisis under this Government, and I oppose this bill very, very strongly indeed. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa27248cfc344dddba6f3b1ac9db48d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa27248cfc344dddba6f3b1ac9db48d1\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to stand and speak on these extremely interesting bills, the Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill and the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThis is the first time that I\u2019ve been speaking on the imprest supply bill, and I hope that won\u2019t be too obvious. This is a technical bill, as many people are not aware, and, in fact, to be completely frank, I needed a bit of revision on what this actually meant. The Estimates are a forecast on what\u2019s about to be spent, as everybody here knows. But what the impress supply Acts are, are a regular part of the annual Budget cycle, with the emphasis on regular. This is, as my colleague Ingrid Leary said, business as usual. For every political party that has stood here post-Budget, the Crown, as we know, cannot spend public money or incur expenses or capital expenditure without appropriation or other authority from Parliament. And that\u2019s why we find ourselves standing here today. In other words, this is utterly normal\u2014I hate to say the word \u201Cboring\u201D, because who could possibly think that anything we do here is boring! Every financial year\u2014speaking to the regularity\u2014there are at least two imprest supply Acts. On occasion, there are more than two. Every Government has had multiple imprest supply bills in each financial year, and they cover the period from the start of the financial year until the main appropriations Act is passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s enough of the technical stuff, because we\u2019ve heard members talking about recession, about interest rates, and about unemployment. And I have to say, I did feel the need for a little, teeny, tiny bit of fact-checking; I like a bit of a fact-check. Because it\u2019s true that we are in a technical recession at the moment. The word here is a \u201Ctechnical\u201D recession, and words to go with that are \u201Cvery shallow\u201D technical recession. And this very shallow technical recession has been, as Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick said earlier, or I may be paraphrasing, \u201Cintentionally engineered by the Reserve Bank\u201D. Because a true recession would be accompanied by high unemployment, and that\u2019s where a little bit more fact-checking comes in. A true recession would be accompanied by high unemployment, but we are currently, in New Zealand, close to historically low unemployment rates, at 3.4 percent. The UK is sitting at 3.9 percent. We heard conversation a little bit earlier in Prime Minister\u2019s questions, from the other side of the House, about how poorly the Government was doing. And, frankly, that\u2019s utter nonsense. The UK is sitting at 3.9 percent, Australia 3.7 percent, and New Zealand 3.4 percent; near-historic lows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49a2df1c68d4ffd9dab7bfd7a64e127\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Not in a recession, though, are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022451fa45f560143cf96ba7506c6e38625\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT\u003C/span\u003E: Inflation, Mr Doocey. I know you\u2019re absolutely desperate to hear me talking about how well we\u2019re doing in New Zealand, and that\u2019s not to say that things are not tough. We as a Government recognise that people are doing it tough\u20146.7 percent inflation, Mr Doocey, but falling. The UK: 8.7 percent, and rising. Australia: 7.8 percent. It\u2019s interesting for us all to realise that the economy is 6.7 percent larger than it was before COVID.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EWe had a little bit of conversation a bit earlier about debt to GDP ratios. Well, in the UK, for the first time since 1961, they\u2019ve reached 100.1 percent\u2014100.1 percent, whereas New Zealand is sitting at 35 percent debt to GDP ratio, which I don\u2019t\u2014I think I must be sitting sometimes in an alternate reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226604df2a10454b34b98e8fe0c37d589f\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6171b0dc7d54850af0c9e64046ae056\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT\u003C/span\u003E: I gave you that one, Mr Bayly, I gave you that one. But when I listen to what you\u2019re saying from the other side of the House, I have to say I am, but I\u2019m in actual reality. Heaven alone knows where you are, where you say, on the other side of the House\u2014not you, Madam Speaker, when I refer to \u201Cyou\u201D. On the other side of the House, when you\u2019re talking about the economy doing poorly, I find that extraordinary when we\u2019re looking at the UK at 100.1 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI know we\u2019re all very excited, but let\u2019s have a little look at what other people say. Let\u2019s not just talk to each other because we can get a bit tied up with our own little bell jar here. The ANZ: \u201Cit\u2019s hard to diagnose this \u2018technical recession\u2019 as anything but part of the necessary adjustment towards putting the economy back on a sustainable path\u201D. And Westpac: this is \u201Can economy that\u2019s in a transition phase rather than outright recession\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m going to return to what I said earlier: the economy is 6.7 percent larger than it was before COVID. People are doing it tough, we know, and that\u2019s why every single dollar that we have is directed towards supporting them with the cost of living crisis. And on Saturday, I look forward to $5 prescription fees being scrapped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022e96fd726a0e5403d9ee62c52429cb621\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e96fd726a0e5403d9ee62c52429cb621\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call in the Supplementary Estimates debate\u2014and not quite tail-end Charlie, but we\u2019re getting down to the bottom end of this Supplementary Estimates debate, where the real quality comes out to play now. I want to really focus my comments in this debate on the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EJust for the sake of the folks at home who are watching, there are two bills that we\u2019re debating in this debate. I\u2019m going to focus my comments on one of them, which is the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. Within that, we have an amendment to that bill, and it deals with the addition of half-a-billion dollars in appropriations specifically for the Government\u2019s contribution to the extreme weather events recovery programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ENow, just to say right from the outset, the Supplementary Estimates bill seeks appropriation by Parliament of the changes to the appropriations and the new appropriations for the 2022-23 year, the financial year that is just drawing to a close. It\u2019s making changes to appropriations that were agreed by the Government between April 2022 and 2023 when the Supplementary Estimates were finalised. So that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut I want to dig down a bit into this half a billion dollars that\u2019s been appropriated for the cyclone recovery, why it\u2019s been appropriated, and how that money will be spent. Cyclone recovery Minister Grant Robertson announced on 1 June that the Government\u2019s entering into a funding arrangement with local councils in Tair\u0101whiti, down the East Coast, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Auckland, and other places, like Coromandel and Northland that were so badly affected by Cyclone Gabrielle, and in Auckland, the anniversary weekend floods of 27 January. The payments are not going to be incurred, expenditure\u2019s not going to be made in this financial year\u2014there\u2019s not much of it left\u2014but the accounting rules stipulate that once the Government\u2019s made a decision to do that, it becomes, essentially, a liability and it has to be accounted for in this financial year, hence the Supplementary Order Paper. This is a common occurrence, I should say. These events do happen. They must be dealt with within the Government\u2019s accounting rules, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere is an historical parallel. In June 2011, the then National Government announced a buy-out scheme for the red zone properties in Christchurch, in the wake of the earthquakes there. Those costs were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022058ddd9d032749a1b30fe2c00f3e4885\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that was quick!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbbef6942eac44c193488f88d925ac68\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014incurred, they were spent, but they weren\u2019t appropriated, Mr Brownlee, because no parliamentary authority was sought. I make no judgment about that. But this SOP that we\u2019re talking about today seeks to avoid a repeat of that unappropriated expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI wanted to make a point that this appropriation is very significant. It\u2019s the practice in our country, after events like the anniversary weekend floods, in the aftermath for homeowners and property owners dealing with the destruction of, in this case, catastrophic flooding, to pick themselves up and, with the help of their insurers, to get on with their lives, to repair and rebuild. Normally, what we do is we leave it to people and their insurers to get on and repair and rebuild and get on with their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ECredit to Grant Robertson that very early on, after the floods in Auckland and Cyclone Gabrielle, it was clear to him\u2014and he said to me at the time that he was of the view that it was not possible, given the scale of the events; given, for instance, the multiple floodings that many residents had experienced in Auckland, for example; the intensity of the flooding down in the Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2014that we needed to treat this as an exercise in climate adaptation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI took the Hon Grant Robertson to Candia Road in Swanson, in my electorate. I took him to Mayfair and Clover in Henderson, one of the neighbourhoods in Auckland that was worst affected by the January anniversary weekend floods, where people were waiting neck-high in water in the streets and in their homes after those floods. We walked around that neighbourhood and we spoke with local residents, and the Hon Grant Robertson heard their stories first hand. This was when it was very raw, in the days immediately after the flood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ECredit to the Minister: I think he\u2019s taken an approach of great flexibility, of great compassion, and he\u2019s really been able to see the big picture and the need for Government to work\u2014and Cabinet chose to work in a way that was locally led, supporting and empowering local councils to deliver a recovery programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that the Government system thought that climate adaptation was something that was becoming increasingly urgent, we needed some legislation\u2014Minister James Shaw is working on the climate adaptation bill right now\u2014but the extreme weather events earlier this year made it clear that we needed to act now, that we could not wait six months, a year, or two years to put in place the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo this appropriation, half a billion dollars, is the Government\u2019s down payment on a massive nationwide climate adaptation programme to make the neighbourhoods safe again where our people learn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIn my electorate in West Auckland, about a thousand people on anniversary weekend experienced catastrophic flooding, sometimes half a metre of contaminated flood waters inside people\u2019s houses, and it\u2019s clear that there\u2019s a huge programme of work that needs to be done to make those communities safe again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis appropriation, half a billion dollars, will go towards the category 3 homes that will be under the system that\u2019s been put in place. I think there\u2019s an estimated 700 property owners nationwide whose properties face such severe ongoing flood risk, or risk of landslip, I think, that there\u2019s no practical options for risk reduction and remediation, and the only sensible option is to offer those people the prospect of a voluntary buy-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ECategory 2: there\u2019s an estimated 10,000 property owners, and these are people who are living with ongoing serious risk of future hazards, future disasters, floods, and slips, where it\u2019s judged that it may be possible to reduce the risk to an acceptable level. That could be anything from fixing some failing infrastructure, it could be clearing or reengineering the streams that flooded so many homes in Auckland, it could mean lifting those houses up above the level of likely flood, it could mean implementing a number of flood-resilient design features in the repair of those homes\u201410,000 property owners. They are going to need some kind of financial assistance to undertake those measures, as will the people who are eligible for buy-outs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been an estimate that the cost of those 700 category 3 homes will be around a billion dollars. Now, much of that will come from insurance payouts. Undoubtedly, those property owners will have to contribute something of their own to the value of the buy-out. But the Minister has made it clear that the Government is committing to work with councils to ensure that, in the case of those 700 category 3 property owners, they won\u2019t be forced to walk away losing the shirts on their backs. I think that\u2019s the right thing to do, it\u2019s the rational thing to do, to make these communities safe and resilient again and to look after people who, in many cases through no fault of their own, may have been exposed to catastrophic risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ENow, there are category 1 people who will be deemed to be able to repair and rebuild. I wanted to take this opportunity to say to the councils who are delivering these recovery programmes that the flood-affected residents are desperate for action, they want progress, they want certainty. Our Government has fronted up with a policy framework and half a billion dollars to make this programme work, and our communities affected by floods desperately need the councils to make quick progress to tell them what category they\u2019re in, and start the work of actually reducing the flood risk in those places and getting on with the process of putting voluntary buy-outs in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo thank you, Madam Speaker. I finally just want to, again, give credit to cyclone recovery Minister Grant Robertson for his leadership in this really important area of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022357f9643408e45f59d9331cf1fa9d2e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022357f9643408e45f59d9331cf1fa9d2e9\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the imprest supply and the addition to the Supplementary Estimates, or appropriation, bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EFirst of all, just in response to the member, the Hon Phil Twyford, who has just sat down\u2014the previous Minister\u2014when I was last in Hawke\u2019s Bay, reviewing some of the flood-hit areas and talking to the people affected, they were crying out for leadership from the Government in terms of trying to deal with the events that have happened there. And when I saw my good colleagues Catherine Wedd, the candidate for Tukituki, and Katie Nimon, the candidate for Napier, in the weekend\u2014again, there is an absolute need for clarity. Whilst the member has done their best to try and highlight what the Government is doing, it is now three months, four months since the flooding has occurred and there\u2019s a desperate need. It\u2019s no good and it shouldn\u2019t be appropriate to just sit there and talk about the councils. It actually requires a Government-led response, and we\u2019re not, unfortunately, seeing that quickly enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut I just returned from Christchurch this morning. I was meeting with between, I think, 80 and 100 business people, and they were talking about and asking questions about what was happening to the business environment, the economy in general. I think, apart from all of the general concerns they had\u2014about a lack of staff, access to it, the rules and regulations, all those types of things that have been imposed on the business sector over the past six years\u2014one of the underlying themes that came through is the level of wasted spending that the Government has undertaken. And of course that\u2019s led to high interest rates which are feeding through and meaning that, for many customer-facing businesses\u2014such as retail, the tourism sector\u2014those types of sectors are still struggling. They were talking and asking about it and what we were going to do about it. We simply have a cost of living crisis, and to have one of the members stand up from Labour and say, \u201CLook, it\u2019s all down to excuses: it\u2019s all down to COVID, it\u2019s all down to inflation, it\u2019s all down to Ukraine; nothing to do with us.\u201D\u2014actually, what about the Labour Government? Isn\u2019t that the problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe issue is the Government has been on a spending spree, and these Estimates and supply arrangements enforce that even further. What we\u2019ve seen is this Government dramatically increase expenditure over the past six years: from back in 2014, the Government spend was $71 billion; this year it will be $128 billion, a roughly $50-odd billion increase. And you would expect, even if you put COVID and say that had a major impact\u2014what you would expect is the expense line of the Government to flatten off and be decreasing by now, because COVID is long passed from our shores. It is not affecting our businesses, it is not affecting the way people are going about doing their things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut no: the Budget documents all highlight this continual extrapolation of Government spending, so that we\u2019re going to see another $30-odd billion of spending increase each year by 2027\u2014that is the issue that is driving high interest rates. And the worst thing about this is tax income from New Zealanders\u2014paid by hard-earning, hard-working mums and dads out there, both in their businesses and people who are employed in New Zealand\u2014is ripped from their pockets by this Government. We\u2019ve seen this increase in tax take and it has been incredible. We\u2019ve seen a massive increase in tax take, and what that\u2019s led to is that we have continued to run deficits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting, just looking at the deficits. That\u2019s where the Government is losing money, just like a household loses money and gets put under by their bank if they lose too much money. Over the last three years, the Government has piled up nearly $40 billion of losses\u2014nearly $40 billion. Imagine what we could have done with $40 billion if we had spent it wisely. But $40 billion has been lost and we\u2019re still projecting another three years of losses if Labour was to continue in this Government, and let\u2019s hope it doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe worrying thing about this in the Estimates is that the IMF recently did a review of the New Zealand economy, Mr Robertson, as you well know, and it said that the management of the pandemic had been very good, but it said the economy had been overheated because of a \u201Cgenerous\u201D\u2014inverted commas\u2014financial monetary support and was now going through a necessary slow-down. \u201CMacroeconomic policies should retain a restrictive bias.\u201D\u2014that means stop spending the excess money and get our Budget back in order, Mr Robertson. And that is what has been happening: it has never been back in order, we just keep spending everything we get. And what we\u2019ve got in here is more money. And then it says: \u201CA well-designed tax reform could allow for lower corporate and personal income tax rates.\u201D Well, we know that\u2019s not going to happen, don\u2019t we, Mr Robertson? Nor do we know it from the Greens, who\u2019ve come out with the most absurd wealth tax proposal that will still defy even just ordinary New Zealanders with just a reasonable home in Auckland. It will be the worst thing that could ever happen in New Zealand. But let\u2019s hope that the Labour-Greens coalition never comes to pass, because that would be devastating for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the worst thing about this is when I look at the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update, the documents states that \u201Creturn to surplus \u2026 in 2025/26\u201D\u2014that\u2019s a few more years away, unfortunately\u2014\u201Cis underpinned by expected decline in \u2026 expenses and stable growth in revenue\u201D. Well, there\u2019s two issues with that. First of all, we\u2019re now in recession\u2014and all this stuff about a technical recession is garbage. On a per capita\u2014when Mr Robertson was the Opposition finance spokesperson, he used to ask repeatedly about per capita, because it suited his argument. The last quarter, when we had this so-called technical recession quarter of 0.1 percent, on a per capita basis is 0.7 percent, and we had a previous quarter that was even worse. We are in recession. Just talk to any business owners\u2014as I did this morning in Christchurch\u2014and they will tell you that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo now we\u2019re looking at our future tax revenues that are projected, and they will come under pressure because that is not what is anticipated in the Budget forecasts. That means that we\u2019re more likely to have higher losses or deficits than is already projected in the documents, and then the other thing is about decreasing costs. Well, the one thing Mr Robertson has been good at\u2014and it\u2019s been consistent, and I\u2019ve got to congratulate him for consistency, if anything\u2014is his ability to spend even more money than even he budgets for. That has been the ongoing issue with this Minister of Finance, because, unfortunately, he spends, spend, spends and allocates stuff in Budget, and spends even more money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing that\u2019s happening now is the current account deficit. The Budget projections thought we were going to have a reasonably high level of current account deficit, but it\u2019s even much higher: $33 billion deficit just recently, 8.5 percent of GDP. We were at those levels miles ago, back in the seventies when we were really out of control and the IMF were worried about New Zealand. We\u2019ve got this high level of current account, which means that, basically, New Zealand is not paying its way. Our exports are less in value than in terms of our inputs. So this imprest bill needs to be seen in this light: it continues spending, it makes generous allowances for even more spending that\u2019s already provided for in the Budget, and we are just going to see this continued increase in debt\u2014which I think is one of the most worrying things for New Zealanders. Our debt, back in 2014 when we left office, was $60 billion; now it\u2019s about $150 billion. That is a staggering amount of increase over a mere 5.5 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe final bit is the lack of transparency of spending. We\u2019ve had the Auditor-General come and talk to us, and the Finance and Expenditure Committee made public representations\u2014actually being quite forceful, more forceful than virtually any other Government entity\u2014and have made it clear that the transparency around Government spending, and particularly the slush fund called the COVID fund, which thankfully has now been disbanded, has been appalling. It has been very difficult to understand what the money has been spent on. New Zealand should be transparent about the way the Government is spending its money, but, unfortunately, that has not passed. We are going to have a big job to do if we were to win the election in October, but we\u2019re up for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cea082e012b443c5b1f5f1a8f62572ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cea082e012b443c5b1f5f1a8f62572ca\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. What a pleasure to speak into this debate, based as it is around an important parliamentary process where the Budgets, Supplementary Estimates, and imprest supply funding are given scrutiny of the Parliament. Of course, we had a Budget not so long ago which introduced some really important new measures\u201420 hours free early childhood education for two-year-olds; $5 prescription fees scrapped; free public transport for under-13s, half price for under-25s; 100,000 more warmer Kiwi homes. Those kinds of things are things that we will all be familiar with, and I want to congratulate the Hon Grant Robertson on another superb wellbeing Budget that he has delivered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut just today we had an announcement from the Hon Jan Tinetti and the Hon Grant Robertson of some changes to appropriations, and they related to university funding. Now, those changes will be reflected in the next set of Supplementary Estimates, as some of the appropriations were changed to make sure that the funding goes to the most appropriate purpose. These are the things which we as parliamentarians have a job to scrutinise\u2014these kinds of measures\u2014and I do want to congratulate them on their announcement today, especially the $48 million total that will end up at Otago University, all private and personal interests aside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo this Parliament, of course, has the job of scrutinising what is spent and what will be spent over the coming year. I want to acknowledge not just the process itself and the importance of it but also one of the characters who has advised this debate over many years, and that is the late Peter Lorimer ONZM, who died earlier this year and who had advised many across both sides of the House on the importance of parliamentary processes like this one. It is a shame that Peter is not here to hear this acknowledgment in the House, but I think members of both sides of the House have been guided by him over the years and would acknowledge the wisdom he\u2019s brought to parliamentary debates in drawing distinctions between the technical matters that are dealt with by officials and the important public scrutiny which politicians lead on. And this is one of those debates where we have the public scrutiny of decisions that the Cabinet has made to fund things like, as has been debated in this debate, the merit of responding to weather events. I think the whole Parliament will agree that responding is essential, and that is often done through imprest supply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EImprest supply Acts are a regular part of the annual Budget cycle. Basically, the Crown cannot spend public money or incur expenses or capital expenditure without appropriation or other authority from Parliament, and spending that occurs outside of these categories then becomes unauthorised expenditure. As someone who was once a Treasury analyst, I received instruction from Peter Lorimer, who I\u2019ve mentioned earlier, on the importance of getting appropriations right. As the Minister of Finance said at the outset of this debate, these are not targets but they are a licence to spend this money as appropriate, as required, in the interests of the citizens of New Zealand. I want to thank all members for participating in this debate because I believe it is truly an important debate that we have in Parliament. Appropriations are a licence to spend, and that includes, I think\u2014just for those watching the debate\u2014things like, for example, if departments charge fees for certain things and then recycle that revenue into other activities. These things are all monitored by the Parliament; all gathering of revenue and spending of revenue is to be scrutinised, and that is indeed appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo the imprest supply bill that we have in front of us seeks to provide sufficient authority for the Government to incur a maximum of $27 billion of expenses, $9 billion in capital expenditure, and $1 billion in capital injections. That total imprest in the bill\u2014what\u2019s called \u201Cimprest supply\u201D\u2014is lower than what was provided in the last three years, and I think people will understand that, given the events of COVID. At that time, it was necessary to ensure sufficient money was set aside in a very uncertain environment. Imprest supply bills are there, in a way, to account for in advance some of the fiscal risks that Governments sit with, those risks of expenditure that may be incurred, that we can\u2019t be certain we\u2019ll incur, but money has to be set aside\u2014it\u2019s normal in any budget. In a household, there are things we know we will incur and there are things we think we might incur, put in simple terms, and those things we think we might incur are called \u201Cfiscal risks\u201D in parliamentary terms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another factor which imprest supply bills deal with and that is uncertain expenditure in terms of timing\u2014we don\u2019t sometimes know when we will incur certain things. We might know that the clutch is wearing out in our vehicle but we don\u2019t know quite when we\u2019ll have to get it replaced, to use a household example. But we do know that we should account for that spending because it will be ahead of us. And this has been a Government that has been incredibly responsible in terms of management of the books. We have a debt amongst the lowest of those countries we like to compare ourselves to across the OECD\u2014again I want to thank and congratulate the finance Minister for his leadership on that matter, and for the very proud record this Government has in Budgets and in accounting to the public for expenditure, and delivering on that expenditure. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022df21a9c1bd6749988bc2b23af8463189\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000406\u0022\u003EBills read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002205ff475a1c9742ac895bb3ba7860ad9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205ff475a1c9742ac895bb3ba7860ad9b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of amendments to the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229522d1f631d84f9ca1593723abd46cf7\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d60e4d647ce4116bdb62d600c72492d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002236f1ca4b6e4a46e6ac91c014624667f5\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf1fec424c13433caa5c9a11d8244ffe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf1fec424c13433caa5c9a11d8244ffe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is in committee on the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EMembers, in the committee stage of an Appropriation (Supplementary Estimates) Bill, only the Minister\u2019s amendments and any amendments to them are considered. There is therefore no debate on any provisions where there are no amendments proposed, which means in this case there will only be a debate on clause 5 and a debate on clause 6, which will include the amendments to Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6948cfebb264a24886c16da8f53c584\u0022\u003EClause 5  Interpretation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022560139ad9fee4d759ab938a6be901be7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022560139ad9fee4d759ab938a6be901be7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on the amendments proposed in clause 5. The question is that clause 5 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e35b1916f7624beaba695a0eb2e344aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e35b1916f7624beaba695a0eb2e344aa\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much, and I won\u2019t take too much time over this. I did mention in the second reading stage that we did have a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP)\u2014SOP 366 in my name. It creates a new appropriation to ensure that any potential expenditure in the 2022-23 year associated with the management of properties and land impacted by the North Island weather events is authorised by Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EColleagues will recall that on 1 June, the Government announced that we would enter into funding arrangements with local councils in cyclone- and flood-affected regions to support them to offer a voluntary buy-out for owners of category 3 - designated residential properties, as well as potential co-funding work to protect category 2 - designated properties. Payments are not actually expected to occur until the 2023-24 year, but our accounting rules mean that the Government must recognise this expense in this financial year because it links to the announcement that was made on 1 June. That, effectively, creates an obligation and, therefore, we need to deal with it in these Supplementary Estimates, even though the actual expenditure is not going to occur in the next week and will occur in the 2023-24 year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAmendments to Supplementary Estimates aren\u2019t common, but they also aren\u2019t unheard of. Similar amendments have been necessary a number of times in the past decade, particularly for funding following adverse events. These include the Christchurch earthquakes in both 2011 and 2012, and in response to COVID-19 in 2020. The approach being taken here was informed by the 2011 red zone buy-outs. On 26 June 2011, the Government announced its voluntary buy-out scheme for red zone properties. Much of those costs were ultimately incurred as unappropriated expenditure because no parliamentary authority had been sought through the 2011 Supplementary Estimates. We\u2019re trying to avoid that situation here, and so the SOP seeks to make sure that the appropriation exists, albeit that it will not be drawn on, I believe, in this financial year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00228b19c7391623428cbc1f0883eb9a326c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b19c7391623428cbc1f0883eb9a326c\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s just a question to the Minister on the Supplementary Order Paper, which the ACT Party supports. I do seem to recall, however, that the Prime Minister at one stage mentioned that this money was already there. The question I have is: was the money there or is this new money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002213df656fc77c4ae2a6f91267025bfc66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213df656fc77c4ae2a6f91267025bfc66\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his question. The creation of an appropriation doesn\u2019t mean that the money itself doesn\u2019t exist somewhere in the system. I have indicated in comments that I have made that it is most likely that this funding would come from the National Resilience Plan funding that was in the Budget. What we didn\u2019t have was a specific appropriation for this purpose, and so it\u2019s to create the funding authority rather than to provide for the actual dollar amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u002282cd3fd022e04d83bfe33b5b8d776b8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282cd3fd022e04d83bfe33b5b8d776b8c\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E That interpretation is what I understood, but Mr Twyford today mentioned another strategy, in terms of climate adaption programme moneys. Have I got that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022c018665049e94d94989f97faeee06176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c018665049e94d94989f97faeee06176\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m sorry, Mr Smith, I wasn\u2019t here to hear what Mr Twyford had to say, but what I\u2019ve said is what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022256a07f8ca16414ead58002ad09eaaae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022256a07f8ca16414ead58002ad09eaaae\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, just a continuation of colleague Damien Smith\u2019s comments: so this a further amount of money. Just to understand the Minister of Finance\u2019s response to him, is this\u2014obviously, we\u2019re setting aside this money, but where is the money coming from? Can he assure that it\u2019s not going to be through additional debt but it\u2019s going to come from existing redirection of resources\u2014maybe in some other fund\u2014and, if so, can he give us any more clarification on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f097b4d790264fd59ac4106922554450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f097b4d790264fd59ac4106922554450\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E As I said, the most likely source of the funding is in fact the National Resilience Plan, which we talked about in this Budget\u2014so that\u2019s some funding that has been set aside. What we have to do is create an authority to spend that on this. So that is where that funding is coming from. And specifically, to answer the member\u2019s question, arguably, that\u2019s debt in the sense that it\u2019s part of a Budget in which there is debt, but this is, obviously, an unforeseen expenditure that we didn\u2019t think, when we were originally setting up the Budget, we would have to do. As the member\u2019s well aware, we managed to find around $4 billion worth of savings and reprioritisations for the Budget. That in turn created the National Resilience Plan. So you could also argue it that way round and say that it came from that. In the end, it comes from the money we have set aside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00226ffcb4e8e08d42c4a728a051ac6af4af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ffcb4e8e08d42c4a728a051ac6af4af\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, for that. Just to be clear, in the addition, which is the second part of the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) because the first, (a), was already in the legislation, but you\u2019ve\u2014and when I say \u201Cyou\u201D, I\u2019m saying the Minister of Finance, through his SOP\u2014added (b): \u201CAddition to the Supplementary Estimates of Appropriations for the Government \u2026 for the Year Ending 30 June 2023\u201D. So the expenses identified here in this document\u2014is this what we\u2019re covering off in this appropriation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfd2fb3ed92d450a93bc412ace7341f7\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: So, that document? Sorry, what are you waving?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37af754354f4de49c5a38488928826c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s an addition to the Supplementary Estimates here. In terms of understanding what the totality of the breakdown of what we\u2019re agreeing to in (b)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266096a0a303b41e58343d1d1c9b14636\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, OK. Yep, yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa26131dcb5a4ef397825a4987d490f7\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, can you\u2014you know what I\u2019m talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00222b7db8f88201428e92f8e231b500e542\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b7db8f88201428e92f8e231b500e542\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I do. I thank the member. Sorry, I couldn\u2019t see the document that the member was waving at me. So the change we\u2019re making updates Vote Finance, so this change falls within Vote Finance. The money that\u2019s outlined here is separate to the additional $500 million that\u2019s being discussed in the SOP\u2014that gets added into Vote Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3124ea8883240c3805c5dbbb382a023\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3124ea8883240c3805c5dbbb382a023\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E So just continuing on that vein, if I look at the Vote Finance changes, so, for instance, there\u2019s \u201CPayments and Expenses in Respect of Guarantees and Indemnities \u2026 $1.094 billion\u201D, this is on page\u2014I don\u2019t know what page it\u2019s on. Anyway, first of all, is that being covered in this appropriation or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0d7fb8632fa482088da7ac3e109da33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0d7fb8632fa482088da7ac3e109da33\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E No, no. The discussion in the committee stage is only about the SOP, it\u2019s not actually about the rest of Vote Finance. The rest of Vote Finance has been through the normal process. We\u2019re simply updating the greater Vote Finance with this change. So \u201Cno\u201D is the answer to the member\u2019s question, but it\u2019s also not within the scope of the debate, in my opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022e851158329ed48c88038864e133aa5e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e851158329ed48c88038864e133aa5e0\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you for helping on defining the debate. So what is the scope of the changes that are here? But not in terms of legislative changes; in terms of the vote monetary amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022601f6832dfd6445e954fcc3b2a048f4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022601f6832dfd6445e954fcc3b2a048f4b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Well that, as outlined in Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 366, is $500 million\u2014that\u2019s it. The things the member is referring to are other matters contained within Vote Finance; they are not the subject of the SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022537bfeceb8a64f1599016a337e1532e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022537bfeceb8a64f1599016a337e1532e0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to clause 5 set out on SOP 366 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EClause 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a2ae0ec004040f5baf7cb309fdab6e2\u0022\u003EClause 6  Appropriations for 2022/23 financial year\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a709618e6c224694824aeb5b8984033a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a709618e6c224694824aeb5b8984033a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 6, including the debate on the amendments proposed to Schedule 1. The question is that clause 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6f0fd8c72c24a3d9ddee96241fbe6b6\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a very timely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ba5f88c1ae14e4a8b995901c6bd5243\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you seeking the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6eb31eacf5440339024da4eff9faf21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6eb31eacf5440339024da4eff9faf21\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah\u2014Madam Chair. Very timely, considering our last conversation. So the $500 million that\u2019s been set aside for \u201CNorth Island Severe Weather Events\u2014Crown Payments to Local Authorities and Other Eligible Stakeholders\u201D\u2014because when I went through the documents, I could find $500 million in the Budget documents. So what I\u2019m trying to understand is: is this an additional amount or is this that amount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022648e91b1f8344583a7868da9e2b2c7ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022648e91b1f8344583a7868da9e2b2c7ed\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Bayly will need to tell me where in the documents he found $500 million. I\u2019m not at all surprised in the greater Estimates that he found that number, because it\u2019s a number and there are a lot of numbers in here. But the point that we\u2019re making is this Supplementary Order Paper means that we amend Vote Finance in the Supplementary Estimates. It is $500 million that was not in the Supplementary Estimates until today. And the reason for that is the reason I gave earlier in my opening remarks that the decision about this came after we closed off the Estimates, just as has had to be done in the past with other matters like the Canterbury earthquakes and so on. So it is simply updating Vote Finance for that number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00225f06320e55204322be6aa074ad5e4705\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f06320e55204322be6aa074ad5e4705\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E So does this cover the Auckland wider area, the Coromandel, Northland, and Gisborne? So it covers all those events?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002202db53e344db4deda6fa296a92f0288d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202db53e344db4deda6fa296a92f0288d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe390ec5925b43bc8bf6b4884bb537a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe390ec5925b43bc8bf6b4884bb537a4\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Right, and does the Minister expect that this will be the final amount that will be allocated to these types of arrangements, or is this again just for the next couple of months or so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220b2aa20acf8b4f839219625950c23da2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b2aa20acf8b4f839219625950c23da2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s the best estimate that we can do for appropriations, as was stated a number of times in the earlier debate. Appropriations are not targets; they\u2019re limits. There is a lot of work to do on both category 3 and category 2 properties, and so this is the amount that is the Estimate for the purposes of the appropriation, but, obviously, more work is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EClause 6 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a02046b796144e888881794d62b9e4a0\u0022\u003EClauses 7 and 8 and Schedules 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288736e36e8784c40b3aab2ef9da52a6d\u0022\u003E agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000454\u0022\u003EClause 7\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002218a3d3d96770465cb894775843a2c5c9\u0022\u003E agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000456\u0022\u003EClause 8\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9a52f6b6c104fe084cb09e245f93948\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9a52f6b6c104fe084cb09e245f93948\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 366 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f408143a4c384adb980e56f1db474b96\u0022\u003E agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000461\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efa21de4fd964e0995c384d6faa8fbe6\u0022\u003E agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000463\u0022\u003ESchedule 3\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000464\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000465\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00221f1bb644342e43cfa957aecc1d5d4abc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f1bb644342e43cfa957aecc1d5d4abc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a2ebda821ac40759763fc23885bab7f\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fc5d243860445b091b5d20f8bc188f5\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00226d090c23218c406584378e00cb9097a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d090c23218c406584378e00cb9097a5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221a24b052652345d49c05a3c6b399d53e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2022/23 Supplementary Estimates) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000472\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bd15904fb1048a98bba4d2e910e329b\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002291faa96acf634e7b8a002f7a5e9d303b\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00226953888677884eb089833a1946ed4815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226953888677884eb089833a1946ed4815\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e10e56c700034ce7a8bba2c649eaca21\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2023/24) Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Whaitiri. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000476\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202052ec4233246579b25df152c4a432c\u0022\u003EWater Services Entities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d32b0e43cfe4b5ca475aa6c8503deb1\u0022\u003EInstruction to Governance and Administration Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000479\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 22 June.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00226ec7804db0d7446cb08107fafbfa2920\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ec7804db0d7446cb08107fafbfa2920\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting the amendment that\u2019s being put forward by the National Party to extend the consideration of this bill until November. This is quite a significant bill. It does make changes that we support in terms of increasing the number of entities to 10, but the proposed consideration by a select committee reporting back by the end of July is too short. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe bill includes a number of detailed provisions affecting local authorities in terms of the transition to the water services entities and the fact that the establishment date for the entities has been pushed out by two years. So there are a number of provisions about how local authorities deal with that. We think these detailed changes do need to go out for public submissions for an adequate time, to have adequate time for the Governance and Administration Committee to properly scrutinise the bill and to consider it alongside the other legislation that has gone through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt puts too much power in the executive and Government departments when legislation comes to this House and has a very truncated select committee process, so it does not get properly scrutinised. It means everyone is working under pressure. That potentially leads to mistakes and it means that the select committee process becomes much more of a rubber stamp. Changes as significant as the three waters changes deserve better than that. They deserve a proper select committee process with adequate time for submissions, select committee scrutiny, and any changes to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8d6e9165ba74493988fab3a402c0bb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8d6e9165ba74493988fab3a402c0bb5\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019d like to rise to acknowledge the previous speaker, the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2014I completely agree with almost everything that she said there\u2014and also to support Simon Watts\u2019 amendment to extend the committee process until November this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EThey have been working on this bill for three or four years and there was significant public input\u2014I think we had over 60,000 submissions\u2014and then to come along and truncate it when you\u2019re doing the amendments to one month, when the usual select committee process would be for a recommended six months, I think is denying people an opportunity to input on something of which there is considerable, considerable public interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned before, 60,000 submissions at the first stage\u2014there is clearly a lot of interest in this. You go around New Zealand, you will see many \u201CStop Three Waters\u201D signs. There is clearly a lot of public interest. There will be a lot of people wanting to have a say on that. If we want to uphold the democratic process and allow people to have faith in how this House operates\u2014how everything works here\u2014then we need to allow proper submissions, and ramming this through before the election is not a fair way to go about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe really need to move this out, and I just want to acknowledge the previous speaker again. I support Simon Watts\u2019 amendment to extend it to November.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a878f1894bad4716a847f4dec3b09d26\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment in the name of Simon Watts that \u201C27 July 2023\u201D be omitted and replaced with \u201C19 November 2023\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222660fcd51da5489d8d01105e7e94ac13\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 27 July 2023 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ef117232573496fbf9601b73dabc865\u0022\u003ECorrections Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022606dd2bfe8104604bb6c3ae7b2fd2a36\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022692b44354f464b46814fbdc30f481aa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Corrections\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022692b44354f464b46814fbdc30f481aa1\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Corrections Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9b21d56e5ed4f37a536d0574ba5478c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c20d7324c3a457985209b20e69d405e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Corrections Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Corrections Amendment Bill makes a number of modernising changes to the Corrections Act. As a Government, we know the importance of supporting prisoners with rehabilitation, and our evidence-based approach is making a real difference when it comes to things like reconviction and re-imprisonment rates, which are all trending downwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI do note that it has been a bit of a focus in the past few days on support to remand accused prisoners to avoid future offending. This bill, tabled as it was in the House last week, will provide Corrections with the flexibility to offer more support programmes for this cohort. I strongly, strongly appreciate the support and endorsement for the legislation that I saw on the news during the weekend. There was a bit of rabbit staring into the headlights going on, people not entirely sure what had happened in Parliament last week, but it\u2019s good to get some support for this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Government is making sure our corrections law is fit for purpose as the people in our prisons change and the challenges that Corrections faces on a day-to-day basis changes. One example of this in the bill is enabling greater flexibility in dealing with remand prisoners, getting them access to more programmes in prison where the law used to get in the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ECurrently, the law prevents Corrections from mixing remand accused, and convicted people in prison unless there are exceptional circumstances such as a natural disaster. This means remand accused prisoners have limited access to programmes and services such as alcohol and drug treatment, because by law they cannot be mixed as they have not yet been found guilty of a crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is based on the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which requires the separation of accused and convicted prisoners to protect the presumption of innocence for accused prisoners. So this bill will allow the limited mixing of remand and convicted prisoners for educational, religious, kaupapa M\u0101ori, and therapeutic programmes essential for integrating back into society. This will increase remand accused prisoners\u2019 access to support programmes such as the M\u0101ori Pathways initiative or intensive alcohol and drug treatment, and will enable Corrections to design more programmes focused on remand prisoners in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnother key change in the legislation will build on Corrections\u2019 current strategy, Hokai Rangi, to further improve rehabilitation and reintegration outcomes for M\u0101ori, who make up a disproportionate percentage of our prison population. Initiatives such as the M\u0101ori Pathways programme are making a real difference when it comes to things like reconviction and re-imprisonment rates, which, as noted, already are trending downwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen we improve outcomes for M\u0101ori, we improve outcomes for our whole society. This is the cohort where we have the biggest opportunity to reduce reoffending. The bill allows for incorporating new principles for the corrections system that are derived from the principles of Te Tiriti. It requires Corrections to develop, maintain, and implement a strategy that focuses on improving outcomes for M\u0101ori in the corrections system and that provides requirements for monitoring the strategy\u2019s outcomes. It will provide for things such as temporary release to be used to access cultural activities by prisoners, not just for M\u0101ori prisoners but all prisoners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe bill requires M\u0101ori prisoners and other prisoners to have access to cultural activities so far as is reasonable and practicable, regardless of the corrections prison in which they are detained. It also requires approaches to healthcare for prisoners in a prison to be guided by the health sector principles set out in section 7 of the Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) Act 2022\u2014again, as far as reasonable and practicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt requires Corrections to provide access to matauranga M\u0101ori as part of the provision of information and education in prison. It also enables the views of wh\u0101nau, iwi, and hap\u016B to be taken into account where appropriate, insofar as reasonable and practicable, in decisions about which prison offenders are accommodated in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe bill will require Corrections to work to reduce M\u0101ori overrepresentation while simultaneously helping M\u0101ori prisoners access the cultural support they need to better reintegrate into their communities and independent support networks\u2014something that we know works, and this is a continuation of the Government\u2019s evidence-based policy in this particular area of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOther updates to the Corrections Act in this bill are also being made, as the prison environment has changed rapidly, while ensuring prisoners are held to account for disruptive behaviour and any assaults on staff. This is an important focus. The staff who work in our corrections facilities do a very difficult job and it is, I believe, the obligation of this House to ensure that their safety is prioritised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe bill will boost the safety of our prisons and community by boosting Corrections\u2019 intelligence powers. We\u2019re futureproofing the Corrections Act by introducing new powers enabling Corrections to monitor, collect, use, and disclose prisoner communications and information sources for intelligence purposes. While Corrections can currently monitor mail and phone calls of prisoners to ensure the safety of prisons, it has no ability to effectively monitor other technologies such as email, video calling, and internet services. These changes will allow Corrections to do this in limited instances to support prison and public safety, including for the victims of crimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOne way Corrections maintains the safety and wellbeing of staff and prisoners is through internal disciplinary processes in prisons. The internal disciplinary process ensures that prisoner misconduct is dealt with through disciplinary hearings and the imposition of penalties by hearing adjudicators or visiting justices. The bill makes some improvements to the disciplinary processes for responding to prisoner misconduct. For example, some changes will support a timelier process and a new option to suspend penalties that will incentivise improved behaviour by prisoners. The bill will also allow disciplinary hearings to proceed without the prisoner present if they refuse to attend or are required to leave on grounds of disruptive behaviour, meaning that bad behaviour can no longer delay punishments and create backlogs in the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo in conclusion, the bill aims to improve wellbeing for prisoners and increase alignment with international obligations. This includes enabling wider use of body imaging scanners in place of more invasive personal searches of prisoners. The bill will allow remand accused prisoners to take part in some therapeutic programmes, while also protecting the important principle that they are treated as innocent\u2014part of our binding international commitments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a bill we are proud to progress. It makes targeted but important changes to modernise the Corrections Act in line with this Government\u2019s focus on keeping our communities safe. I welcome the widespread support that this bill has had as people have caught up with it, and I recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00224be563ad87cc40e387e6cbcf14c52288\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224be563ad87cc40e387e6cbcf14c52288\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022733130b696934b41b78fdefb8bf94fd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022733130b696934b41b78fdefb8bf94fd6\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E I want to address, first of all, the safety of our corrections officers in the jobs that they do. I was lucky enough to be invited by the Corrections union to their AGM this morning in Auckland to be able to address them and also get involved in some questions and answers. Basically, I\u2019m not going to talk about the content of that meeting because we have an agreement that anything discussed inside the meeting will stay inside the meeting, but I do want to acknowledge them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe one thing that actually really annoys me is that our corrections officers, when we talk about public safety, we often don\u2019t refer to them, because they are largely invisible. We don\u2019t see them. We don\u2019t interact with them on a daily basis. But I want to highlight the incredible work that they do, the sacrifice that they make, the professional approach that they take to their role, to keeping our community safe. And not just keeping our communities safe; they are dedicated people that actually want to be able to deliver rehabilitation programmes to prisoners when they come into our justice system, because we want them to come back out and we want them to be able to re-join society and we want them to be able to make good decisions in their lives. But the reality of it is they have been under so much pressure and their numbers are so depleted that they can\u2019t safely deliver those rehabilitation services, and you\u2019ve seen a 35 percent reduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe Government made a big deal when we made our announcement on the weekend. They rushed out there. They somehow managed to convince some of our media that woke up to the fact that they were being tricked, and they came out and actually acknowledged that. They said, \u201COh, we\u2019ve already got a bill in the ballot. We\u2019ve already got a bill coming into the House that will deal with rehabilitation to remand prisoners.\u201D Well, you don\u2019t. This is an abject failure. Our bill actually addresses the fact that we have 45 percent\u201445 percent\u2014of the prisoners currently in the Corrections system on remand. That\u2019s an abject failure in itself. But that\u2019s an issue that relates to courts and relates to justice being delivered quickly, and at the moment it\u2019s being denied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EOn top of that 45 percent, you\u2019ve got 20 percent\u201420 percent\u2014of those remand prisoners that will complete their entire sentence on remand. That is completely, totally unacceptable. By the way, what are they doing while they\u2019re sitting in the prison on remand? They are getting therapeutic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16dc17d83374992ab8935e5d8879bb8\u0022\u003EToni Severin\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222256794a78aa4c21bfe2e4ce2bd8c36b\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014rehabilitation. Nothing; absolutely right. They\u2019re getting therapeutic courses delivered to them. They should have access to meaningful rehabilitation that can deal with violent offending and can deal with sexual offending. This bill here doesn\u2019t address either of those things. It\u2019s ridiculous. It\u2019s a joke. They came out and they tried to convince the country: \u201COh, no; we\u2019ve got a bill that deals with that.\u201D It doesn\u2019t. The announcement that National made over the weekend, it does deal with that. It does allow the system to be able to deliver the full 29 rehabilitation programmes and for these remand prisoners to have access to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge that a remand prisoner hasn\u2019t yet been convicted, but that doesn\u2019t mean that they lose the right to be able to engage and have access to those programmes. By the way, when you\u2019ve got 20 percent of them\u201420 percent\u2014doing their entire time in prison on remand, it means that they\u2019re coming back into society without the benefit of having access to those rehabilitation programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo Mr Robertson can stand on the other side and talk about rabbits and things like that. The only one that\u2019s searching for a rabbit is Mr Robertson, to try and pull it out of the hat, because he realises that they\u2019re under serious pressure, and they are under serious pressure. They don\u2019t even understand. It was clear by their rushing out with their comments and the statement they gave to our media and our press gallery that they didn\u2019t even understand what was in their own bill. It\u2019s a joke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWhen I finished the meeting today with the Corrections union, I was very lucky and felt very fortunate. They had presented me with two things. One of them was a plaque and the other one was this was this pen. This pen has got an inscription on it. It\u2019s a lovely pen. It\u2019s got an inscription on it; the inscription is, \u201CWhere\u2019s Kelvin?\u201D Where is the Minister? Because the Minister is missing in action. Why you wouldn\u2019t engage\u2014to me, the meeting this morning was refreshing. Do you know why? Because I was actually hearing from the front line. I was hearing from the people that actually deliver the services, not the ones sitting in headquarters, not the boffins coming up with other new sort of programmes and new ideas and new red tape and new compliance that actually impacts the front line and the services that they are trying to provide; you actually get to hear from the front line, the corrections officers that are turning up every day and doing the hard work. For me, it was refreshing to be in that environment and be able to hear and get direct feedback in terms of what\u2019s happening and what they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI just want to come back to the comment that the Minister made around Corrections staff and their safety. The best thing this Government can do is actually engage with them and listen to them, because they know what they need to do to try and make their workplace safer. They\u2019ve got some very good initiatives that they\u2019ve put together and worked up, and I\u2019d encourage the corrections Minister to sit down and engage and get serious about how we make our prisons safer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWe had a ridiculous situation where we had Kiri Allan, the Minister of Justice, in the last few weeks come out in the public and say, \u201COur prisons are a university for criminals. Our prisons are a place for gang members to recruit.\u201D That\u2019s true. That\u2019s true, because the way they\u2019ve configured our prisons means that they\u2019ve lumped all the gang members from one gang in together. It allows them the ability to be organised. It allows them the ability to try and intimidate and, on many occasions, assault our corrections officers. But then this Government brings a bill to the House whereby they are now going to mix young prisoners with those older, experienced gang members. So you\u2019ve got the Minister of Justice, on the one hand, saying, \u201CThey are universities for crime and the gangs use them to recruit. But, oh, by the way, we\u2019ll take those younger offenders that have come into the system and we\u2019re going to mix them together. We\u2019re going to give them more access. We\u2019re going to put them together.\u201D They\u2019re completely, totally confused, and they\u2019re contradicting themselves in terms of their approach to our criminal justice system, which is consistent with this Government and the approach that they\u2019ve taken in the last six years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo, again, I\u2019d ask the next speaker to get up and address that and tell us why they think it\u2019s a good idea to take younger offenders that are coming into the system, that are impressionable, that are at risk of being recruited by gangs, that should be kept away from them, but you\u2019re proposing to now mix them and put them together so it actually increases their exposure and their risk to being recruited by the gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn principle, we are going to support this bill because we do want to see steps in the right direction in terms of trying to make our corrections officers\u2019 workplace safer. At the moment, it\u2019s not. This Government has put millions of dollars into a recruiting scheme that\u2019s delivered about 61 or 62 new corrections officers. They are seriously under-numbered, they\u2019re seriously overwhelmed, and they need support. Before this Government can even talk about increasing the delivery of rehabilitation, they have to get the staffing right. They have to focus on retention. They have to focus on valuing the corrections staff that they have at the moment. Because I can tell you something: experience matters. When they\u2019re dealing with what they\u2019re dealing with at the moment, experience matters. They have to figure out how to get their recruitment right, how to identify\u2014and, by the way, be realistic in expectations when they are recruiting new corrections officers, the environment they\u2019re going into, because they\u2019re not going into a risk-free environment; they\u2019re going into an environment where the risk of assault is very real, and you have to be honest with people about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo those are the issues that need to be addressed. They\u2019ve been failing on rehabilitation. We\u2019ve put forward a policy where we\u2019ve been very clear that we\u2019re very serious in making sure that 45 percent of the prison population at the moment that is not getting the full range of those 29 programmes will. They bring a silly, weak, insipid bill that messes around on the fringes and says, \u201COh, we\u2019ll do a bit more therapeutic stuff.\u201D It\u2019s ridiculous. They have to focus on getting the prison officers recruited. They have to focus on making sure that our corrections officers have the staff and that they\u2019re able to safely deliver those rehabilitation programmes, otherwise this bill, in terms of rehabilitation, is useless. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022088f185ef9bc4940b4abc482d8abd269\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022088f185ef9bc4940b4abc482d8abd269\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, on this side of the House, we\u2019re a Government who are focused on addressing offending from all sides. That is prevention, that is also punishment, and it is rehabilitation. So it has been good to hear the National Party recognise that rehabilitation is part of the solution, although I am still a little confused about whether the National Party is supporting this move or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThis is something that\u2019s very important in terms of addressing the crime and offending that\u2019s out there. In terms of rehabilitation, on this side of the House, we have invested in circuit-breaker programmes for young people, which has seen young people who are offending go through programmes that show that 72 percent of them then don\u2019t reoffend. Rehabilitation works, and we need to make sure it\u2019s also there for those who are in prison as well as those who are on remand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EJust addressing some of Mark Mitchell\u2019s points that he raised, he spoke about a reduction in the provision of these services within the Department of Corrections. Initially, that was due to COVID, but as we heard when we spoke to the Minister in the appropriations hearing, it\u2019s also because of a change in the nature of the programmes being delivered. You cannot\u2014you cannot\u2014cure an addiction issue with an eight-hour course, which has been the case in the past. We are changing the way in which we deliver these programmes so that they work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWhy therapeutic only? Well, that goes in part to the final point that Mr Mitchell made. There is mixing of some remand and prisoners, but for a limited purpose, and therapeutic courses is a logical place to draw that line. There are also practical reasons why some offenders on remand will not want to engage in more detailed programmes, because they may feel an indication of guilt. There is a rational, reasonable line for drawing the line at therapeutic aims, and I think we\u2019ll see great results from this programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EAs the chair of the Justice Committee, I\u2019m looking forward to receiving submissions on this bill, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e554459c43714113a8f19c22ee91e0ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e554459c43714113a8f19c22ee91e0ab\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, to assist the last speaker, Vanushi Walters, the member who has taken her seat, the National Party is supporting this bill, but we\u2019re supporting it in the same way that we\u2019ve done with a number of bills in the justice or the law and order space. It\u2019s because these are small, incremental, little steps forward; we don\u2019t see it as problem, but we know in this space that we need to be taking great, bold, strong steps forward. So, again, we are happy to support this bill, but, be under no illusion, the National Party does not see this as a bold, strong set of steps that are particularly needed in the corrections space, and I will outline why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, this is titled the Corrections Amendment Bill. There really is only one amendment which is needed to Corrections, and that\u2019s to get rid of this Minister and this Government, and then we will set Corrections back on track. Fundamentally, it\u2019s another area which is under enormous pressure. If, like the Hon Mark Mitchell or myself and others on this side, you are talking to those corrections officers, you\u2019re talking to prisoners and others, you\u2019ll understand that the system is under incredible pressure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EUnless something has changed remarkably in the last few weeks, there are very few prisoners who have received visitors this year. I just want to repeat that for those listening at home: prisoners, in most prisons, have received no visitors this year. That is a legal failure. I notice that the left wing have gone quiet, because they\u2019re always banging on about UN rights and charters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd834ae537dc4bf88428d81ed13fef42\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s OK if they do it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f7254fa4acf40f3a9a73e8ec1cc634f\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly right. As the Hon Gerry Brownlee says, it\u2019s OK if they do it. But, fundamentally, there are some very basic legal precepts and rules around what prisoners are entitled to. Again, I think I\u2019m correct, it\u2019s something like 30 minutes a week that they\u2019re entitled to, and, again, some prisoners have had no visitors. In some prisons, the entire complex have had no visitors\u2014that includes the likes of chaplains as well. So it\u2019s not just a legal failure; it\u2019s a moral and a social failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EYou might ask, Madam Speaker, why I am referencing this around the Corrections Amendment Bill. It\u2019s this, and it\u2019s simply this: all the pieces of paper, all the words on those pages, all the great intentions are going to run up against a system which cannot deliver. I want to be really, really clear: that\u2019s not a reflection on our corrections officers, who are doing an incredible job, but they are stretched beyond capacity. The reason there are no visitors to prisoners is that there are not enough corrections staff. The reason that the likes of prison chaplains\u2014and I used to be one\u2014can\u2019t go in as regularly as they want to is that there are not enough corrections officers. The reason why prisoners are being locked up for hours and hours a day is that there are not enough corrections officers. One of the key reasons that a lot of rehabilitation is not occurring in the prisons already is\u2014no surprise\u2014there are not enough corrections officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, again, it\u2019s a positive idea that we want to put more rehabilitation into prisons. National\u2019s policy released over the weekend is much more comprehensive. But let\u2019s be clear: to do rehabilitation, we need more prisoners on the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESadly, as the Government\u2019s attempted to correct and amend Corrections, they\u2019ve thrown millions and millions\u2014I think, again, the last count, when I used to be the shadow Minister for Corrections, is something like $4 million - plus has been spent on an advertising campaign, and, basically, very few have come forward. Really importantly for the public, if the Minister and those talk about the numbers that have come forward, that\u2019s only expressing their interest; those who have actually got to the front line: well, worryingly few. Speaking of the front line, I think we\u2019re about 400 corrections officers down and about 1,800 corrections personnel short. This is a major problem\u2014a major problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EOn the positive side\u2014on the positive side\u2014there are some good things here. The fact that this bill will allow better intelligence gathering by Corrections is exceptionally positive. I remember when I used to go in and visit in the old Mount Eden, a lot of these prisoners\u2014I mean, let\u2019s not take away from some of the terrible things they\u2019d done\u2014some of the skills they had, when you think about the skills they had to break into your car quite swiftly and easily and rewire it and take it away, kudos to them. I remember saying, particularly to the young ones, \u201CIt\u2019s just a pity you couldn\u2019t have used those skills in a much more constructive and positive way.\u201D But we\u2019ve got very smart people in prisons. Fundamentally, we need to have the intelligence operations to be able to deal with that, and we already know the number of contraband phones and phone parts, for example, which are going into prisons at the moment. Again, I would argue that it\u2019s another failure on behalf of this Government that we don\u2019t have enough corrections officers to do what\u2019s necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, there\u2019s going to be changes to the disciplinary processes. Again, I\u2019d like to tease this out in select committee. I think it\u2019s important that we do have discipline processes, but also incentives for those who do well\u2014and I want to acknowledge that I think that\u2019s within the bill, which is a good thing. We do need to reward, within the prison, good behaviour, but we are not to tolerate poor behaviour. Certainly the feedback from a number of corrections officers is that they do not feel the backing of their Minister or this Government and that bad behaviour is tolerated in prisons, and that just a wet bus ticket, if that, is thrown at the prisoners. That\u2019s a concern in itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThere are some strengthening processes around the use of non-lethal weapons to be used within the prisons. I\u2019m not going to elaborate on the various types that have been deployed or that they want to be deployed\u2014again, this is for the safety of prison officers. I suspect, though, this is not enough. Again, talking to corrections officers, they don\u2019t feel safe. There\u2019s been a much-vaunted safety policy\u2014I\u2019m afraid I\u2019ve forgotten the exact title of it\u2014that the Minister\u2019s been championing, but it\u2019s, basically, stalled, and there\u2019s not much confidence from the corrections staff that this is going to work. I think it\u2019s, unfortunately, a situation in Corrections, again\u2014and probably with this whole Labour Government; lots of great conversation and working groups and policy documents, but it just doesn\u2019t make the front line. So put really simply: the corrections officers don\u2019t feel safe, and that\u2019s leading, unfortunately, in some wings of various prisons for, effectively, the gangs to be in control. Again, I really want to stress\u2014I really want to stress\u2014to those corrections officers that it\u2019s not a reflection on them. On this side of the House, as best we can, because we are not\u2014well, I\u2019m not\u2014on the front line, we understand the pressures that they are under.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EHowever, as I keep saying, there are some good elements within here. Look, they\u2019re wanting to improve rehabilitation and reintegration. A lot of it\u2019s around outcomes for M\u0101ori and Pasifika\u2014and, sadly, we know that those groups are overrepresented, so, yes, engaging there is positive. But our prisons, if you will, are broadly reflective of society, and there are people from a whole lot of other ethnicities, as well, and I think elements of where we, if you will, culturally appropriately\u2014I don\u2019t know why that\u2019s such an awkward sentence; I\u2019m going to have to think about it afterwards\u2014work with M\u0101ori and Pasifika we should be doing the same for people who are Chinese or Indian or European or otherwise. So I just want to make sure that\u2019s teased out as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs Mark Mitchell has pointed out too, this bill is actually going to allow remand prisoners to mix with sentenced prisoners. Now, that doesn\u2019t make a lot of conceptual, academic, or practical sense to me. Why I say \u201Cconceptual\u201D and \u201Cacademic\u201D is that remand prisoners are people who have been arrested but not yet found guilty; sentenced prisoners, strangely enough, have been. I don\u2019t think mixing the two together is particularly smart. Again, I look back to previous work I have done where, often, younger prisoners were put in with older ones, and all you ended up with was a young one coming out of prison a lot more smart and criminally savvy than they were. So let\u2019s not repeat that by mixing remand and convicted prisoners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think, as Mark Mitchell has pointed out, focusing rehabilitation on remand prisoners is a smart thing\u2014and, again, partly driven by another Government failure, which is that our courts are so overburdened that people are sitting on remand not just for a long time but often for the length of their potential sentence. It\u2019s absurd. It\u2019s beyond absurd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd finally\u2014and finally\u2014there are a whole lot of minor but quite important changes around the use of body scanners, particularly around heat signatures, which are going to be deployed. I think that\u2019s a positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI want to bookend this in the way that I started. Look, we are supporting the bill. There are good aspects to this. But I\u2019d prefer people at home not to think that this is some amazing amendment bill. It\u2019s lots of little changes\u2014a little bit like they\u2019ve done in other spaces of law and order: little changes. Yep, they\u2019ll do some good but nowhere near as good as is needed. As I say, fundamentally with an amendment bill like this, it really should read in Part 1 that come 14 October, Corrections will be amended by having the Labour Government thrown out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00225134df56b2c549c48e2ae3a70b76cb71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225134df56b2c549c48e2ae3a70b76cb71\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on this important bill, the Corrections Amendment Bill, which will make the changes which are needed and are important to make our justice system function as it should. Reducing reoffending is some of the most important work that any public servant can do. Taking somebody who has been judged for the worst thing that they have ever done in their lives, isolated from their family and friends, and rebuilding them so that they are capable of re-entering a community that can then support them is a very difficult thing to do. This is what this bill will enable corrections officers to do. It is incredibly difficult work and we should thank them for their role in that process, which doesn\u2019t only start with them; it starts with the whole community around them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI say this because on that side of the House we have heard over and over again that this is caused by not having enough corrections officers, while at the same time Opposition members have given speeches about how corrections officials are boffins, that they sit in their offices and come up with ideas that we don\u2019t need. Our corrections officials are doing the work that our justice system needs, to right wrongs of hundreds of years that have underserved our communities. I thank those men and women who go to work every day in our corrections system in South Auckland and Manurewa to make people\u2019s lives better and to improve the work that their community are doing for these people who have suffered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis bill will make those changes that we need. This bill is something that I look forward to having those conversations that we need to have within committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022479b5f7ae8ed4980b2444a89c9617178\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022479b5f7ae8ed4980b2444a89c9617178\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member, could I just ask the members on this side, if you\u2019re going to have conversations with each other, could you sit next to each other or possibly just keep the volume down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2ae4ae5285d4b4e9899f1b3638326f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2ae4ae5285d4b4e9899f1b3638326f9\u0022\u003ETONI SEVERIN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party on this Corrections Amendment Bill. We\u2019re going to support it at the first reading because we want to hear from the submitters, because we have reservations about this bill. So does National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, the great thing about it, when you read through the information, is that the Government has at least had a public consultation in August and September, which is a very large document which I managed to read last year, and it\u2019s also had about 200 responses to the survey and 57 written submissions\u2014also, that they partnered with iwi and key stakeholders and sought feedback from prisoners with workshops, with seven at the Christchurch Men\u2019s Prison and six at the Christchurch Women\u2019s Prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m glad you actually consulted, because this is where you learn what is needed on the ground. As Mark Mitchell said earlier, he had a meeting with the Corrections Association of New Zealand (CANZ) at their AGM today, and I\u2019m very fortunate that I\u2019ll be speaking to them tomorrow. They have concerns too; they\u2019re upset that they can\u2019t help prisoners because they are short of staff, and also rehabilitation programmes have been closed down that were making differences. If we can\u2019t rehabilitate them, then we are going to continue the cycle of reoffending. The thing is that we\u2019re all for this\u2014we want our prisoners to come out with skills. We are desperate\u2014myself who suffers from dyslexia, I hate to think how many are in our prisons that have dyslexia and neurodiversity. We\u2019re not even getting them tested on that, and that is supposed to be part of the criteria. And it\u2019s a sad reality that that is not happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, we were a bit concerned around the modernising and futureproofing of the Act to clarify Corrections\u2019 powers to monitor prisoners\u2019 communication and information source for intelligence, but once you get reading it, you realise that, yes, they\u2019ve done their due diligence, and the Attorney-General has come back and said there is no hassles with this, because we don\u2019t want any more people\u2019s rights to be infringed when already, as we have said, they are not seeing loved ones or families in person. Some of them haven\u2019t seen them in two years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, also, prisoners have contacted me saying, \u201CHey, we want rehabilitation.\u201D\u2014but they\u2019re not getting it. It\u2019s a sad, sad reality today. But also moving forward into modern technology around video calling and internet services, well, why can\u2019t we also move that into some of the rehabilitation phases where there\u2019s possibilities\u2014tablets, where you don\u2019t have to have the internet but you\u2019ve got programmes on it so that these ladies and gentlemen, while they\u2019re in their cells, have actually things to do around learning or seeing videos on things that can be downloaded. It would be much appreciated if something like that was added into this bill to move us into this modern age. But there\u2019s nothing there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, we also have concerns around the remand prisoners being put with accused. I know it is limited, but, yes, again, there\u2019s a huge problem there within Corrections, especially around staffing, because to move a remand prisoner around prison, they have to make sure other prisoners are locked up, let alone having to have classrooms or facilities where they are. So there\u2019s going to be a huge change there that needs to be looked at. Also, you hear stories of remand prisoners that have been sitting in a prison waiting for their court case and two years, three years later they are released because it\u2019s time served, and they have done nothing while they\u2019ve been sitting there because of their remand. So we need to get our court system up and running so that these people are not sitting on remand for long periods of time and, if they are, let\u2019s make sure they do get those basic needs of rehabilitation given to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing that they have in here is around making the disciplinary process for prisoners a lot faster and better. And as I talked to CANZ, actually, a few weeks ago, they said, like anything, you need what we call the carrot and the stick, right? Everybody understands that if you reward somebody, they will keep doing good behaviour, but if they misbehave then there needs to be punishment. Now this needs to be done more of because, at the moment, a lot of the corrections staff are seeing prisoners not being pulled up for misbehaviour within the prison system. And that\u2019s not on, because how can you keep some form of control of these prisoners if you\u2019re not pulling up bad behaviour and making it hard for our corrections staff? You know, they\u2019re there, they\u2019re facing it every day, and you don\u2019t want them to go home to their loved ones with bruises and battered because of them being the ones that frustrations are being taken out on. We don\u2019t want to see them go to hospital because of these frustrations that our current prisoners are facing\u2014because they\u2019re not getting rehabilitation programmes or seeing their loved ones in person because of the numbers of our corrections staff\u2014and we\u2019re losing huge numbers of experienced ones, and $4 million is only the tip of the iceberg that this Government is having to do for recruiting. It is going to end up being a hell of a lot more, which is quite sad because we can\u2019t attract enough people here and we\u2019re losing really good staff to overseas because they have not been heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s not pay; it\u2019s conditions. Now, the thing is, if we don\u2019t make conditions good for everybody in the prison, then it\u2019s just one big mess. Now, also in this is around the cultural. Now, we\u2019re all for that because it\u2019s all part of rehabilitation that people\u2019s cultures need to be recognised. If you read information from overseas, it shows that family is a huge part of rehabilitation, and we\u2019re saying it\u2019s good to see M\u0101ori, Pasifika, but we need to recognise other cultures when possible. We need to recognise that we are a multi-ethnic society. In the prison, yes, proportionately it is more dominated by M\u0101ori, but we also have got to recognise those other cultures because that is part of who they are and we need to make sure they still feel that they are part of their community, and that\u2019s a huge plus if we can get that running the way it says here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc721bdd304c498d86a22690a6d92ed4\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: So you recognise ethnicity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209e3a8dead2e4bf197490ef73f5dfd18\u0022\u003ETONI SEVERIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I said we\u2019re a multi-ethnic society, so not just one or two. We are multi-ethnic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022884ed007b28948d1947fafdfa254d844\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: So you\u2019re recognising ethnicity\u2014not colour-blind on this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e323e81f5754a23a06e02597bc878dd\u0022\u003ETONI SEVERIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Now the other thing is that we\u2019ve always said that it should be based around that. Now, the other thing is these scanners. A couple of years ago, I was very fortunate, I was able to go and visit Christchurch Women\u2019s Prison, where they had a scanner already in place trialling it, because for a lot of women it is quite embarrassing, depending on their circumstances of why they are being brought into prison, and if they have had abuse and many other things that have occurred for a lot of these female prisoners, having a pat down pat down is not the ideal situation, even if it is by a fellow female. So these scanners have come in and it\u2019s made them feel a lot more comfortable, least aggravated. So I\u2019m looking forward for them to be rolled out even faster and further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EThere is one thing in here that\u2019s going to be very interesting that I\u2019m looking forward to talking to CANZ about and that is people\u2019s identity. Now, I\u2019m happy for people to identify as whoever they are. However, I still have a slight problem if there is a gentleman who is identifying as a female and requests for a female officer to be able to pat them down, the security around that. Because the thing is that we do know that there could be a size difference, a strength difference. Now, we don\u2019t want to put our corrections people in danger. So we need to make sure there is safety measures in there for those corrections staff. Quite regularly we need to make sure that all prisoners are safe as well as corrections staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, in general, as we said, we\u2019re supporting this bill at first reading because we want to hear from the important people that will help to administer many of these changes, and we also look forward to many of the organisations that help with rehabilitation programmes within the prison. And we look forward to that because they\u2019re the ones with the feet on the ground as well as our corrections staff. So I\u2019m looking forward to the unions, not only the CANZ union but the New Zealand Public Service Association, coming in and talking to us and giving us their opinions around how this is a good bill or how it can be improved to make everything better for our prisoners, to get the best rehabilitation so that we have less offending\u2014and also, hopefully, we get the rehabilitation that\u2019s in my member\u2019s bill, if it is ever drawn before we finish, which is: no rehabilitation, no parole. But we need that rehabilitation to happen so they can get that parole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022276430f72fe2438183c30d1aca5e1a36\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the chair for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7.30 pm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.02 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baedcf8d35604e9da873204b06922a05\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, members. Before we broke for dinner, we were debating the Corrections Amendment Bill. The next call is a Green Party call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u00223b3bd82c97994958871780d33c9893d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b3bd82c97994958871780d33c9893d4\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to stand. So I will be putting clear on record that we will be opposing this corrections bill. I\u2019ll outline the main concerns, and I will also look at some of the things in the bill which we think are positive but which don\u2019t go far enough and aren\u2019t enough to combat the potential harm that we think this bill causes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI first want to put on record that I understand the intentions behind the bill. The PR that was put out by my colleague, Minister Davis, today, talked about \u201Cboosting rehabilitation and reintegration of prisoners\u201D\u2014now, that we have long supported. What we are concerned about, in three main points, I think, is the Tiriti approach that is outlined, in our view, doesn\u2019t go far enough\u2014and because it is superficial in a certain way, what that means is that we could be excusing a less-than-deep approach to a truly Tiriti-led way of working around corrections. We definitely are concerned around the age-mixing of children and adults, and we maintain that that mixing is always a breach of the rights of the child, especially but not limited to international law, something that we\u2019ve\u2014as a Government, as a country\u2014been rapped on the hands about for a long, long time. We do have concerns, as others have stated in the House, about the mixing of sentenced and remand prisoners together in rehabilitation. One of the main points there is that, absolutely, people, including remand prisoners, should be able to access good services and supports, including therapeutic support; there, in our eyes, is no need to enable mixing of prisoners to be able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo the Titiri concerns I\u2019m happy to pick up in a little bit more detail. There is a reference incorporated to Te Tiriti on the paper that refers to\u2014I think the language used is \u201Cengaging\u201D with M\u0101ori on matters relating to rehabilitation, and to \u201Cprovide access to m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D. All of these references fall far short of the true transformational reform that is needed to bring our system of justice actually in line with Tiriti justice and Tiriti obligations of actual M\u0101ori leadership, of Te Ao M\u0101ori - based justice. We therefore don\u2019t want to kid the public or the House into thinking that this can start to serve the transformational and deeper requirements that are needed. The bill also requires Corrections to develop, maintain, and implement a strategy focusing on improving outcomes for M\u0101ori in the justice system\u2014and here, again, we want to maintain that we keep our collective focus on the truly foundational changes that are needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI think here I was going to raise the example of the success of the rangatahi youth courts, and I\u2019ve been privileged to be able to attend some of those hearings over the years. They have been in action for about 15 years now, and I think we\u2019re up to around about more than 15 of those around the country. I was privileged to attend the launch of the Manurewa K\u014Dti Rangatahi, which I believe was the second after Gisborne. So there have been authentic and enduring successes across those approaches, especially in terms of reducing and lowering re-offending rates\u2014good, good, ka pai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo the differences between those quite foundational changes in the ways of working and the quite superficial references in this bill to Tiriti justice and Tiriti accountability are quite stark, and there\u2019s a massive contrast there. So that is a concern and we are highlighting that. I think we are also echoing other concerns that many members in here have raised with the staffing shortages and the existing centralised mega prison system developed by successive Governments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EPart of my role, especially as a prevention of violence Minister, is to visit prisons and meet with corrections staff. Many, many, many times over all of my years in Parliament\u2014certainly recently\u2014I\u2019ve been hearing the concerns raised directly to me about shortages, which I know the Minister and Corrections are aware of, and I know that we are all wanting to support and see improvement in proper staffing and safe staffing. Safety for workforces is always a concern for the Green Party\u2014and safety for everyone in prisons as well. So that was the first Tiriti-approach concern. If I can go a little bit more [Looks at clock]\u2014oh, goodness, that goes fast\u2014into age-mixing and mixing of sentenced and remand prisoners in rehabilitation, our system still lacks the properly resourced, evidence-based, and standardised rehabilitation programmes. So in terms of the current availability and quality of programmes on offer, there\u2019s not good consistency between institutions, and existing sentenced prisoners are therefore regularly denied a place also in programmes like drug and alcohol rehabilitation, anger management, or literacy. Others have spoken about that quite scandalous gap of many people in prison actually having dropped through some quite scandalous gaps in education systems, for example, let alone mental health care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s still extremely unclear why the Government needs to make legal the mixing of convicted and remand prisoners to be able to offer that support. I\u2019m really, really looking forward to what the Justice Committee contributions highlight in light of this particular breach of a long understood standard under international and domestic human rights laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EAnd now I come to what is always a breach of the rights of the child: the age-mixing of children and adults. That on its own is a bridge too far for us to be able to outright support. And, again, I highlight the fact that there is any thinking that there are situations where mixing of young people and adult prisoners could be in the best interests of the child, given decades of extremely consistent research, ongoing binding international tool standards, and\u2014what I said at the start\u2014the specific and regular criticism that we\u2019ve received over decades by the UN Committee on Rights of the Child. Yes, since 1990, so even more than I thought\u2014which was of course the ratification of the convention, and that\u2019s one of the most universally accepted and binding of human rights laws. So with those three concerns, we felt that threshold was far too potentially harmful for us to support this bill. Again, we look forward to select committee contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to finish by acknowledging some of what we think are potentially good things, of course. So the process for authorising the use of non-lethal weapons and the legislating where the Minister must consider sufficient information relevant to the use of non-lethal weapons such as operational policies and training materials for staff\u2014ka pai, good. There are a number of other miscellaneous amendments. Others have picked up on allowing body imaging technology to be used instead of a rub down. And, again, as a prevention of violence Minister, I absolutely support those amendments in this bill, but they could be done at an operational level and wouldn\u2019t have needed legislation. They could be amended at the regulatory and operational level, and they are something that could have been done this whole time. I support those, but it\u2019s still not enough to meet the threshold of potential harm. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1df35c8cec243819c48773a50e52412\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1df35c8cec243819c48773a50e52412\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s really disappointing to hear that the Greens are not going to support this at first reading, because a number of the issues that the previous member, Marama Davidson, raised, in my view, could have been discussed and debated at the select committee stage. Certainly, around the mixing of children and adults, the preamble, the explanatory note to the bill, clearly states that it is where it is in the best interests of the child. That is unequivocal and what the member has done is, essentially, rule out that there could ever be a situation where that could be in their best interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other element is around prisoners on remand mixing with convicted prisoners. Again, an assumption that this could never be in the interests of those who are presumed innocent\u2014i.e., those on remand\u2014when, in fact, we know that resourcing is such that sometimes these really important rehabilitative programmes cannot be delivered, either because there are not enough numbers or because it is cost prohibitive to do two courses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo this is a practical way of the law following what is needed on the ground. And it\u2019s really disturbing to hear the Opposition actually say that they care about rehabilitation when all the announcements I\u2019ve heard from them recently have been about locking up more prisoners through their attempt to try and return the three strikes law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EFinally, it is abhorrent to hear people suggest that the Hon Kelvin Davis is missing in action. He has been a completely committed and dedicated Minister, who has worked tirelessly, particularly around the kaupapa of keeping M\u0101ori out of prison. We know that 53 percent of male prisoners are M\u0101ori, 67 percent women, when in fact in the general population it\u2019s only 15 percent. That is why that Minister works so tirelessly and that\u2019s why we are seeing the impacts that we are seeing in reducing prison rates and in seeing measures like this fantastic rehabilitation bill come before the House. I commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c77322ff41da453396cbddbc577cea1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c77322ff41da453396cbddbc577cea1e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call the Hon David Bennett\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00225044962d19ed43398321b93ee83e3be2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225044962d19ed43398321b93ee83e3be2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, that last speaker has been getting very agitated in this House in the last couple of speeches that she has made, and I think it\u2019s the stress of knowing she\u2019s on the way out and her party is on the way out. I think that stress is showing in the tone that we\u2019re seeing from that speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255291d809df47458aba7410434d62fb\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: How can you be talking about things being on the way out? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250b2c7da0a6f43ca95f0153f353189a3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s great to see Grant Robertson in the House here today. He should actually be in his office, trying to save the economy, instead of being down here, trying to look like he\u2019s reading some material. But, you know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b32b553f1dad4a87a14e53ac1cf60ae6\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: On the way out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226801e3e9351b47e2857d9f47ee51f61c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: On the way out\u2014exactly what Grant Robertson is. You know, he\u2019s the man that has caused a recession that the Labour Party called a technical recession today\u2014they won\u2019t actually admit that it\u2019s a recession. [Interruption Then the Labour Party are constantly interjecting because they want to hear more about the recession that they have created, and Grant is\u2014they can\u2019t even say the word in question time any more. They can\u2019t say the word \u201Crecession\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4c549f436b5491baa8b9e3d7c2acdbe\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will come back to this particular bill, the Corrections Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bdb440b885745b981a2bb986ea7efcd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you, Madam Chair. I was just responding to the Hon Grant Robertson\u2019s interjections and just confirming what he\u2019s done to this economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EBut this bill is about corrections, and anybody that\u2019s been in a prison\u2014and most politicians will actually have had the opportunity, I guess, in some way to go through a prison and see what it is actually like and to see how hard it is, and to see the young men, particularly, in there that can\u2019t read and can\u2019t write. They\u2019re very angry. A lot of them are in a very dangerous position in their personal lives, at that young, formative stage. That\u2019s why you need to do the rehabilitation, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re doing what we\u2019re doing on our side when we\u2019re supporting rehabilitation\u2014like we\u2019re supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that we understand some of the aspects of those young men, particularly, and their journey in our prison system. There can be no excuse for the activities that have been undertaken to get someone into prison, and it\u2019s very difficult to actually get to prison. We had a Crown prosecutor speak at a school event, and, basically, for anybody that can get through year 12, there\u2019s virtually a zero percent chance that they will actually end up in prison. Basically, anybody that can get through year 12 virtually doesn\u2019t go to prison unless they do some kind of fraud. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo, effectively, we need to look at some of the drivers in society as well, and that\u2019s really where the National Party is coming from. We\u2019re looking at a cohesive plan around education, around work, and around giving people incentives to actually have a better life, rather than glorifying gangs and rather than glorifying that aspect and saying that that\u2019s a legitimate perspective of how people can get through in life. That\u2019s the difference between National and Labour, and that\u2019s the difference in how we approach these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo we will be supporting this bill because there are some parts of it that reflect our desire to see more rehabilitation, and actual rehabilitation. We had the Department of Corrections come in front of the select committee last week, and, as is typical for the Department of Corrections, they were very defensive of the Government in the senior leadership there. One of the issues was around rehabilitation, because a lot of money has been spent on rehabilitation and not a lot of service delivery is actually being seen, and they couldn\u2019t actually answer that question in the select committee. Now, they said that they\u2019d get the information and send it through, but surely when you\u2019re spending something like I think it was $170 million, you would know where that money would be going and you would know what you\u2019re trying to do with that, and they couldn\u2019t answer those questions. It really spoke volumes about their approach to rehabilitation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAnyone that\u2019s been in this House and been through a prison will know that the prison officers do a sterling job for this country. They do amazing work and we thank them, but we need a system that actually supports them as well, and a system that doesn\u2019t give them the tools to deal with those prisoners isn\u2019t supporting them. That\u2019s where the National Party is coming from: we want a system that actually supports those prison officers so that they are safe and we actually get the results and less offending\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002284be9d5d556948589dacb70d04425157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284be9d5d556948589dacb70d04425157\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time is up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022125b93f3b8504d24bdaf5ea15420d0d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022125b93f3b8504d24bdaf5ea15420d0d5\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It is a pleasure to rise and take a call on the Corrections Amendment Bill. It\u2019s wonderful to hear across the House the unequivocal support for the workers in the middle of this and the professional perspective that unions and workers bring to resolving such complex issues as those that we have in our prisons. This bill addresses quite a few different aspects of the challenges within our prison system. So it\u2019s great to hear the support from the other side. I expect we will hear more support as we go on, appreciating that the worker, the professional perspective, is critical when we\u2019re trying to resolve such complex issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard a lot about the intent of this bill being about improving access to what we need with regard to rehabilitation. We\u2019ve heard about the overrepresentation in our prison system, both our men and our women\u2014neurodiversity, substance use disorders, and challenges around literacy and numeracy and access to skills and qualifications, as well as, of course, mental health challenges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe idea of improving access to these\u2014we\u2019ve heard about the practicalities in a very small and geographically dispersed prison population, about being able to provide in a practical sense the access to courses that prisoners need and those on remand could benefit from. The idea of improving prisoners\u2019 access to literacy and numeracy enables their access and their ability to better engage with rehabilitation programmes and eventually gives them the confidence to seek and hold down meaningful work when eventually they come out back into society. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00220655024f380f4840b4895ed5383a20b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220655024f380f4840b4895ed5383a20b7\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I was just doing the numbers and reflecting, and it\u2019s been at least 40 years since my first prison experience. My mother was a prison chaplain in Mt Eden women\u2019s prison\u2014don\u2019t panic, nothing to hide here. Going into Mt Eden women\u2019s prison in the early 1980s\u2014a very different time back then in terms of accessibility to prisons for children. But then, through my years, all the way from Auckland down to Otago I have had experiences in a number of our corrections facilities, supporting, sadly, mostly young people who I was working and walking alongside. So I\u2019ve seen firsthand, I\u2019ve seen up close and personal the inside of how prisons operate and the impacts they have on prisoners and those who are on remand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge victims of crime, and understand that prisons are a necessary part of our society, but from what I\u2019ve seen and experienced working alongside people who are going through corrections and the prison process, we need to do everything we can. We need to do everything we can to ensure rehabilitation; to ensure that they have access to alcohol and drugs treatments; to ensure that they have access to whakapapa, to kaupapa M\u0101ori services; that they have access to their religious beliefs and what they follow; that they have access to therapeutic therapies to support them. And so in this legislation, when it comes around the potential moments of mixing remand and sentenced prisoners, if it\u2019s around outcomes for the offenders, if it\u2019s around bringing about healing, if it\u2019s around them re-entering society as better contributing members, then we need to do it. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u002262fd5645b2274cf084eab6b3b7dfef2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262fd5645b2274cf084eab6b3b7dfef2a\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Good to rise and talk on this bill, noting that the National Party is in support of the Corrections Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe do have a reduced prison muster at the moment that\u2019s received plenty of attention over the past fortnight or so, and we believe that there are some steps in this that are positive. We support this bill through to the select committee stage and, of course, we\u2019ll support common-sense measures to help those in our prison system. Obviously, this is an area where we want to reduce\u2014where we want to get people rehabilitated. What we don\u2019t want is a revolving door. But also what we don\u2019t want is people in society who are, you know, a real and credible threat to society. I think that\u2019s probably where this Government has overbalanced a little bit in depopulating the prisons. And as a result, we\u2019ve seen crime numbers go up a fair bit; gang numbers are up significantly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EBut on this, we support offence-based rehabilitation, and we would like to have seen rehabilitation services made available across all of the different programmes. We note that just under half of the prisoners in there are on remand and there\u2019s a fair chunk of those who actually spend their entire sentence\u2014they see out their sentence in remand. That\u2019s probably a bit of a call-out to how poorly our justice system is operating at the moment. We have a Government that\u2019s more focused on hate speech and other bits and pieces in the justice sector instead of actually getting the courts moving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EI note in my home town of Tauranga we had been promised a new courthouse, just to see the justice Minister recently kick that one down the road. That doesn\u2019t help us get through with the processing, so, as a result, a lot of prisoners are spending their sentence in the remand facilities. And if they don\u2019t have access to the whole range of services there and, you know, a fair chunk of them are spending a chunk of time in remand when they do their sentences, then they\u2019re not going to be rehabilitated. That is a bad thing for the prisoner, it\u2019s a bad thing for the victim, and it\u2019s ultimately a bad thing for society, because what we are going to do is send these people back out into society no better off necessarily than they were when they went in there, and potentially they\u2019re worse off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EIf someone has got addiction issues, then we want them to be able to access those services when they are in the prison facilities, whether that be remand or the general jail system. If someone has more specific requirements, whether that be around violent or sexual offending or whatever it may be, then we believe that they should be able to access those services as soon as possible, because it\u2019s essential that they do get that help that they need and not just generalised motivational courses or a few life skills courses. We really want those people to be getting the rehabilitation they need from day one when they get into the remand system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EAnd we note that prisoners have suffered a fair bit recently. Mark Mitchell called it out when he was speaking as the second speaker today on this bill, and noted that there are a shortage of corrections officers. We\u2019re not talking about the officials in the back offices, but we\u2019re talking about the people that are in the front lines, on the ground, doing the hard work and dealing with an increasingly violent prison arena. We note that violence against prison officers has escalated quite significantly. I think when I was looking at the statistics last year, it looked like it was up about 90 percent since 2017. And the net result of that is that people don\u2019t necessarily want to do that job any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EAnd then the Australians very cunningly put on a lot of ads, as they are right across the economy at the moment, trying to get our skilled workers over there. And, you know, from someone who has lived there, it\u2019s a pretty good life. I think people are looking at that and an increased income and probably a corrections Minister and a system that backs them up a bit more, gives them what they need to defend themselves and their peers, and then they\u2019re going, \u201CWell, you know, I don\u2019t necessarily want to be dealing with Mongrel Mob members all day and not having a system that backs me up. I might look at other options.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EBut the net result of where I\u2019m going with all of this is that quite often there aren\u2019t the prison officers there on the ground, as Mark Mitchell referred to today, to allow those visitations to take place, which are such a key part of ensuring\u2014often they are, you know, young, angry men\u2014that they do get the support that they need from wh\u0101nau, family, friends and loved ones to enable them to keep those key connections. It\u2019s been noted that a lot of them spend a lot of time just on their own really, or maybe bunked up, but a lot of time disconnected from their loved ones and from their sense of belonging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ESo if we were focused a little bit more on listening to the front lines\u2014and I thought Mark Mitchell put it very well today when he said the best thing this Government could do in this area would be to listen to the officers on the front line, go out there and listen to them like he was today and make sure that they are getting backed up, because if they are feeling safe and they have the numbers there, then they will be doing their job properly. They will be safer, the prisoners will be safer, and ultimately they\u2019ll be able to have a lot more of the visitation rights that they haven\u2019t been able to have this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ESo while we support this bill, Mr Speaker\u2014I note that you have switched from the previous Speaker during this call; I\u2019m glad I got the pronoun correct\u2014we do want to see some changes, some common-sense changes which I have outlined in this. And I will note that we support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u00228b0f2be1bd724177bc2af9b6d5357166\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b0f2be1bd724177bc2af9b6d5357166\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to speak on the Corrections Amendment Bill at its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI, like many people, I imagine, had no experience with the inside of a prison until actually assuming this role and having the opportunity to visit the prisons on the outskirts of Christchurch. Like many, many people speaking before, I was really impressed by the dedication and hard-working nature of the people who work in corrections and their commitment to rehabilitation. I really just wanted to agree with Mr Uffindell that the people who are in prison\u2014who are being held to account for their criminal behaviour\u2014should leave in a better state than when they went in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI think what we\u2019re trying to do here is do a few simple things that will make life safer and more productive for our wonderful corrections officers and staff. But we\u2019re also trying to weigh up the importance of the presumption of innocence for our remand accused prisoners with their need to participate in therapeutic programmes and other educational programmes so that they can integrate more successfully back into society. Because, as we\u2019ve heard, they currently do have a limited access to programmes and services that will be of enormous benefit not only to them as well as, obviously, to the sentenced prisoners who they will be able to work together with\u2014under very limited circumstances, as I said, so that we can protect that presumption of innocence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EBeing committed to seeing people leave prison or leave remand in a better state than they went in is the goal here. As a result, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229564632dbca246f2a40335fd3bf684e3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Corrections Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000610\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002230c628ba202f45eea7f81864744cfac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230c628ba202f45eea7f81864744cfac6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Corrections Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022778386e4eb114f00906f8d1668bf3643\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022778386e4eb114f00906f8d1668bf3643\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Deposit Takers Bill and the Fuel Industry Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002235165726d7a24c5aa42e1b2688ed10d5\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002270a18418ca63481c8d21eff37a1da072\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228d8cbf1a463e4c8989c3eb3abc491853\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d8cbf1a463e4c8989c3eb3abc491853\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Deposit Takers Bill and the Fuel Industry Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002275eb4bef110341f798a2229d7f75cb2d\u0022\u003EDeposit Takers Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223020d3dd9a4842128080bd676b59fa50\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000620\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 21 June.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022123c62636763453a89e7d3929e0a8157\u0022\u003EPart 4  Supervision of deposit takers (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a463ae6b1da5491a91f4acc7834fa351\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a463ae6b1da5491a91f4acc7834fa351\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: We come first to further consideration of the Deposit Takers Bill. When we were last debating this bill, we were debating Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 98 to 146, \u201CSupervision of deposit takers\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1c998354557465bb1ab2ee7272beb3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1c998354557465bb1ab2ee7272beb3d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the remaining provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002297ff2205052f4eaeb51b602597e8ba98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297ff2205052f4eaeb51b602597e8ba98\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00229780f7778a5a421eb53e49dcc3fb9bc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229780f7778a5a421eb53e49dcc3fb9bc0\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I don\u2019t know why Shanan Halbert is so keen to close this debate down. He was doing it the other night when we were debating this same issue. He didn\u2019t make one contribution other than trying to close down the debate. So I hope tonight he\u2019s actually going to stand up and talk about it, because from my understanding, he does sit on the Finance and Expenditure Committee; he should know about this bill. He should be contributing, because it\u2019s a very important part of the banking regulation of New Zealand. But, obviously, he\u2019s not going to. Thank you for seeing the Minister in the chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just want to talk about the issue of confidentiality. If the Reserve Bank appoints someone to undertake an investigation, they may, under clause 130(3), make a confidentiality order, which states that \u201CThe Bank may make the order on the terms and conditions (if any) that it thinks fit.\u201D So it\u2019s a very one-eyed, one-sided power granted in favour of the Reserve Bank in terms of confidentiality. Now, there\u2019s obviously, in clause 131, some issues\u2014consent must not be unreasonably withheld, and some other mitigating factors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut just turning to clause 145\u2014there are times when the person or the entity being investigated may believe that the investigation is unwarranted. I\u2019m referring to clause 145A(2)(a): \u201Cthe applicant has established a prima facie case that the exercise of the power in question is unlawful\u201D. So, obviously, to get to that point, you would have had to have gone through a process where the bank has talked about investigating and undertaken an investigation, and it\u2019s only subsequently you find out that prima facie there isn\u2019t a case for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo can the Minister give some clarification and comfort that the Reserve Bank won\u2019t unduly use its powers. Because if someone was investigating a non-bank deposit taker or whatever\u2014an entity\u2014and the entity concerned thought there weren\u2019t proper grounds for it, it is highly unlikely that the Reserve Bank is actually going to grant them powers to rebut the confidentiality order that a bank may impose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo how do we have comfort that the Reserve Bank is going to pursue cases where it thinks it\u2019s fine and appropriate, but not actually allow the entity concerned the opportunity to talk about it, even if it is contrary to the Reserve Bank\u2019s view or interest? Because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s necessarily precluded under clause 131.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022592425396e29425f90e1004102db5cec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022592425396e29425f90e1004102db5cec\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just leading off on the contribution from my colleague Mr Andrew Bayly, in regards to confidentiality, and I\u2019m going to give a different part of the Part 4, but I\u2019ll give an opportunity for the Minister of Finance, who I acknowledge in the chair, to come back on some responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo my questions are around Subpart 8 of Part 4, around \u201Caccess to information by overseas supervisor\u201D. For those of you sitting at home, watching this, going, \u201CAsk him some questions.\u201D\u2014or those that are potentially going\u2014this is an interesting aspect of the legislation, because, in effect, it provides the ability to have confidential information provided to an entity which is based outside of New Zealand. There\u2019s a number of questions and considerations\u2014and rightly so\u2014and potentially some concerns in regards to the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo my questions to the Minister really relate to providing a degree of comfort and assurance around this process and that due consideration and thought has been given around the protection. So my questions particularly relate to clause 141, and I\u2019m interested, from the Minister, in terms of how does he foresee that the Reserve Bank will be able to achieve or obtain sufficient provision or assurance that the data that\u2019s potentially shared, or acquired and shared, with the overseas supervisor\u2014that the confidentiality of this information is protected? What are the grounds in which, potentially, the bank may consider or would not authorise that provision of information\u2014I guess, take into account whether it\u2019s going to be a framework or what consideration around where that threshold lies, because I think there\u2019s obviously going to be an element of subjectivity involved in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other question in regards to data: we\u2019ve had a number of examples of data breaches over the years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022061809fc02ec489989e5951dca6fc537\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617de7194b3f461096b664f1e57d1ed2\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014many, as Andrew Bayly has noted\u2014and the challenge becomes even, I think it would be fair to say, more complex when the data is being shared in overseas jurisdictions which don\u2019t necessarily share\u2014in many cases do not share\u2014the same rules-based system that we benefit from in New Zealand. So there\u2019s a conversation around the assurance of the storage of that data and the confidentiality. But, actually, the other aspect is, if you fast forward five or 10 years in regards to that data, ensuring the longevity of the protection of that data and the confidentiality of that data, because, while in a different example, we saw the firearms registry, and data was left in the cabinets in the police station in Auckland, and, some 20 years later, it got lost. Conceptually, applying that same methodology to this consideration, how is the bank going to be able to get assurance around the long-term aspect around that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo what are the grounds, how will the bank get assurance, and, particularly, has the bank considered or is it considering around the ongoing nature of ensuring the protection of confidential information? I\u2019ll leave it at that, and then we\u2019ll come on to another couple of clauses soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022d02fbdc80d884dceb1c5ab3223a8efaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d02fbdc80d884dceb1c5ab3223a8efaf\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just giving the Minister time to reflect and hopefully get an answer from his good officials over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EJust continuing on the same thought, or line of questioning, I\u2019m talking about clause 145A, \u201CEffect of Proceedings\u201D. My question is, let\u2019s say that the bank has started to undertake an investigation, and during the course of it the bank comes to a view that the investigation is not warranted or there\u2019s issues with the way it\u2019s being conducted or whatever. Can the Minister just help identify: is the only recompense for the entity concerned clause 145 where they have to issue proceedings, or is there any interim step where there can be another outcome that doesn\u2019t necessarily end up going to court? Because I\u2019m not sure what happens with the court case. Is there a lengthy delay between the filing of the proceedings and until the judgment or court case occurs? And in the intervening time the Reserve Bank carries on its merry way doing the investigation\u2014which may or may not be proved in hindsight to be wrong or incorrect or actually doesn\u2019t arise in anything\u2014and, in fact, the Reserve Bank was wrong in undertaking the investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019m just highlighting this is it\u2019s like a market study. It\u2019s like the banking study that the Government\u2019s just kicked off, or the fuel study\u2014they\u2019re very expensive for the entities concerned. We know the Commerce Commission cost for the grocery study was roughly three million bucks, but from the other side of it I understand the grocery industry has spent probably close to $20 million defending themselves. So these things have bad or significant impacts on entities\u2019 brands, it has impacts on people\u2019s reputation. And so having safeguards to ensure that only legitimate and well-researched and bona fide situations where investigations are undertaken are undertaken, and they\u2019re not used as a fishing trip or whatever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBecause, as my colleague Mr Simon Watts identified, market rumours\u2014it\u2019s a very small market\u2014start to seep out into the market that someone\u2019s under investigation by the Reserve Bank. That in itself can be poor\u2014in terms of stiltifying people who might want to engage with that business, new customers not wanting to engage with those types of entities. So that\u2019s why I think it\u2019s very important that there is some form of mechanism to make sure that entities are protected and have the ability to protect themselves if they think, especially if they\u2019re proved subsequently to be warranted exercise of power by the Reserve Bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaea0b35703a4f3a8786ab84a78bce1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaea0b35703a4f3a8786ab84a78bce1a\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m enjoying this interaction between myself and Andrew Bayly. It would be good with the Minister, I\u2019m looking forward to his contribution\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c525ca1c2ed4a93a26ea4f0ab65a1e8\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Take it easy, Wattsy\u2014take it easy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d95fe025fd4c4b47ab08c911ee64eb1c\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014into this, but in the interim we\u2019ll continue to have a dialogue between ourselves. Maybe Mr Halbert from Northcote could step up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut related, actually, to the points you\u2019re raising, Mr Bayly, in regards to that\u2014my questions relate to clause 126(3) which is around the aspect of instances which you\u2019ve referred to where the bank can appoint an investigator. I think that\u2019s all reasonable and people would expect that that be the case. So clause 126(3) refers to: \u201CThe investigator must be an employee of the Bank\u201D\u2014yep, that makes sense; no issues there\u2014\u201Cor any other person who the Bank is satisfied is suitably qualified.\u201D Any other person. And why that potentially\u2014and the question for the Minister in regards to this is around, what is that criteria? Because \u201Cany other person who is suitably qualified\u201D is reasonably broad. But the reality is, when you move into clause 127, that individual\u2014who in this case may be any other person, not an employee of the Reserve Bank, any other person, just they need to meet a threshold of being \u201Csuitably qualified\u201D\u2014has the power to obtain quite significant information under clauses 127(1), (2), and (3). But I guess the risk is always there that that individual may not carry the same level of appropriateness as a member of the Reserve Bank, and, therefore, that information that they have the power to obtain could potentially be used in a manner which isn\u2019t appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI guess my question is in regards to clause 126(3): why did the Minister feel it was appropriate to broaden that out in such a broad way? And can the Minister assure the House that the risk that I\u2019ve just outlined is something that is unlikely to occur; but, if it does, what protections or mechanisms are in place to be able to, in effect, monitor that investigator and ensure that that investigator\u2019s actions do not bring the Reserve Bank into disrepute? Because the Reserve Bank would, in effect, have a role in that process, but, more broadly, not bring into disrepute this aspect, because they will also be interacting with the deposit takers in a broader sense and the access to power of information and the access to request. When one has that degree of power, there is always a risk that the power may be used inappropriately. And so I am seeking reassurance that there will be processes and procedures in place that will mitigate that risk sufficiently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1aebdd617ec4bb1937d9a79a7580567\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1aebdd617ec4bb1937d9a79a7580567\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to refer the Minister, please, to clause 146(2) in Supplementary Order Paper 361 that the court in its discretion can order any information or copy of any document from a document that instead of being destroyed, be retained by the bank or an investigator subject to terms and conditions that the court imposes. It was interesting to note this week that JP Morgan\u2019s retail division lost 50,000 emails on their clients\u2019 activities. I just wondered in this clause if the advisers would take on board that maybe an overnight data feed between the bank and the deposit takers would make sense in terms of (a) protecting the integrity of the data and, secondly, if any fast decisions have to be made on the banking scenario, that this data was instantly there, instead of just being passive and waiting for it and waiting to go through the court system, that everybody was fully prepared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c8548fd4e0f437eb85836528fd765cf\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: We are poised with expectation, hoping the Minister\u2019s going to stand and actually answer one of our, I think, six questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002266489e4a2c484b3fb21efcf9f953ca90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266489e4a2c484b3fb21efcf9f953ca90\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you taking a call, though, Andrew, or are you still waiting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1075a73b2d3422abd3368fd072acb4d\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m just giving the Minister every opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6fd2ae8ad7f49a9ae1e3b8f096a608f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6fd2ae8ad7f49a9ae1e3b8f096a608f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: There being no other calls, the question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 361 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e467b38b30649a39b9de82672dbbef4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229d4cc4ab459e4b16a1ae221d6acf7704\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e134e5b4b22e446a811cfe52caced8ab\u0022\u003EPart 5  Enforcement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225e1c241916b347af9b9ada805a4ecfca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e1c241916b347af9b9ada805a4ecfca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 5. Part 5 is the debate on clauses 147 to 188 on enforcement. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4ddc242fe204ce398625ce0a43f10cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4ddc242fe204ce398625ce0a43f10cb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Just to briefly introduce Part 5, this is around enforcement. Essentially, the framework that we\u2019ve set up here is to provide a range of options to allow for a proportionate response to misconduct in line with the approach and other comparable enforcement regimes. Obviously, the most serious offences are reserved for serious misconduct. The question of enforcement follows on from the question of supervision that we dealt with in Part 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere are three tiers of offences under the bill. The least serious offences are tier 1 offences, which, essentially, are things like failing to notify the bank on becoming aware of fit and proper concerns\u2014that carries a fine of up to $500,000 for a body corporate or $50,000 for an individual. The most serious offences are tier 3\u2014for example, carrying on a deposit-taking business without a licence, that would carry a fine of up to $5 million for a body corporate or, in the case of an individual, a fine of up to $500,000, or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThroughout Part 5, you\u2019ll see a variety of enforcement-related provisions, including the power to accept undertakings, pecuniary penalty levels, the procedure and related provisions to how that works in relation to criminal offences and infringement offences. It is an attempt to be proportionate, which is one of the concerns of the committee, and I think the part strikes that balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s worth noting that there is Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 361 in my name, amending clause 177, which is intended to ban persons who engage in serious misconduct from participating in the deposit-taking business, including ownership. Given that many deposit takers are owned by a holding company, the ban would be ineffective, and so the SOP proposes to expand clause 177 to authorise the District Court to issue a banning order in relation to a licensed deposit taker and any holding company or subsidiary, so just to reflect the nature of the ownership of many deposit takers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022576fa6805e3242159181ced573921693\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022576fa6805e3242159181ced573921693\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I welcome the introductory comments by Mr Robertson. I thought we were going to have to rely on Shanan Halbert for some commentary on this section but we were holding our breath. We were holding our breath, Mr\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222ec1255e2b94af6bb9b588f1fd82f67\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You can see the disappointment in his face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223be78016011e426590775a987c777235\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. So what I wanted to talk about is clause 159, which did occupy the committee\u2019s time quite significantly, as Mr Robertson highlighted. This is the \u201Cdefences for person that contravenes prudential obligation\u201D, and in plain terms this is about, what is the liability, particularly for directors, or senior management teams, in terms of meeting the requirements, and the ability to rely on other people within an organisation to provide the information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think the background to this is\u2014personally I had a concern that we were running the risk with all the liability and the fines, etc., that if someone in a large organisation didn\u2019t have some form of protection, inevitably what would end up occurring is that particularly directors would end up having to do their own due diligence and to make sure that, for instance, the bank was providing the right information to the Reserve Bank and the forms that were required, and if there were errors both in some of the figures or the way it was presented, potentially could give rise to a liability for that particular individual. The mere threat of that, especially when it was overlaid with significant fines, as the Minister has just highlighted, meant that progressively we may end up getting to the stage where already the regulation and regulatory oversight of banks is very significant, and we will end up possibly having people who are not prepared to go on boards of banks and other regulated financial institutions that are covered by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThat would be a really bad outcome, and I think it\u2019s slightly concerning that The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation has just recently pulled out of New Zealand. And one of the specific stated reasons for departing New Zealand and giving up its operations here is the degree of regulation\u2014one of the explicit reasons given, not the only reason but it was an explicit reason. I think we\u2019ve got to be mindful in New Zealand that we strike the right balance between adequate regulation, and one where we\u2019re becoming overzealous and uncontrolled, and actually stifling competition, stifling innovation, but probably more importantly over time is actually stifling the appointment of good people who may want to be part of these organisations, but who look at their personal risk and say, \u201CLook, I don\u2019t want to be part of this because I cannot manage this risk adequately\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EClause 159 does deal with that by providing a defence for someone that if a contravention, which, in terms of provision of information to the Reserve Bank, \u201Cwas due to reasonable reliance on information provided by another person, other than a director, an employee, or an agent of A\u201D\u2014\u201CIt is also a defence for A to prove that\u2014(a) the contravention was due to the conduct of another person\u201D\u2014or an accident, or some other cause beyond the control of A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo what we sought to introduce in this section is really some mitigating factors because we do not want boards and directors of our large banks, and even large deposit takers having to get\u2014coming to a view that they need to do all this work. So this is a way of dealing with it. I think hopefully we\u2019ve struck a balance in terms of a defence. But I think, as I said before, we\u2019ve got to be mindful that we do strike an adequate balance because that\u2019s such an important part of our ecosystem\u2014to have good, strong financial institutions, but at the same time we are promoting competition and innovation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d be keen on what the Minister\u2019s view on it is, on those changes, and obviously he was supportive of them, but it\u2019s a very important aspect, I think. It\u2019s one of the most crucial aspects of this bill in terms of striking the right balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b436c2aeee26427190ce53a897c22088\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b436c2aeee26427190ce53a897c22088\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 361 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bad3b14a73542969ddc1243c9b3e4f7\u0022\u003EPart 6  Depositor compensation scheme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00223f7055ed3e6a4f8ba4145f34624a32ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f7055ed3e6a4f8ba4145f34624a32ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 6. This is the debate on clauses 189 to 255, the depositor compensation scheme. The question is that Part 6 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022359eb48eef6f4a8abe5813707cf7898a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022359eb48eef6f4a8abe5813707cf7898a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Part 6 covers the creation of the depositor compensation scheme, and at the outset of this part I do just want to make a couple of introductory remarks. This is a very important part of this bill and a very significant change in New Zealand\u2019s history. We are one of very few countries in the OECD that doesn\u2019t have some form of depositor insurance or depositor compensation. Over a period of time through the consultation work that we did with the Reserve Bank Act review, we have traversed the support for this proposal across both the banking sector itself and the deposit-taking sector itself, and also among the public, and there has been a strong level of support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to note that at the beginning of the year, when we had some issues in the United States with Signature Bank and Silicon Valley Bank, my email bag started to fill up with people saying, \u201CWhere is the depositor compensation scheme up to?\u201D My replies to all of those people has always been to stress that in New Zealand, we have a very strong and robust banking sector. All of the things that we\u2019ve just been discussing in the previous parts of this bill are all about the things that sit around our banking sector and make sure that it is robust. You can\u2019t set a bank up in New Zealand as easily as you can in some other jurisdictions, and when you do set a bank up, there are far more supervisory and enforcement provisions around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand does have a sound banking system, but when the worst happens, we need to give confidence to our people that their money will be safe. Again, we know that in our history there have been times where there have been issues, and people have turned to the Government quite quickly to say, \u201CWill you bail us out? Will you help us out?\u201D What we need\u2014and what became clear from the consultation that the public agreed with us on\u2014was a scheme that meant that we didn\u2019t have an ad hoc response in those situations, but we\u2019d have a response that was always available, always there, and always giving confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo Part 6 creates that scheme. Subpart 1 is the various preliminary provisions to set up the scheme. Subpart 2 establishes the Depositor Compensation Fund, which will be owned and managed by the Reserve Bank on behalf of the Crown. Under clause 198, the fund may be used for paying the depositor compensation scheme compensation, paying the Reserve Bank\u2019s expenditure in connection with this scheme, supporting a resolution measure in relation to a licensed deposit taker, paying tax liabilities in respect of the Deposit Compensation Fund, and to repay any money borrowed by the Reserve Bank where there is a deficiency in the fund. Subpart 3 provides for how the compensation for eligible depositors will be calculated, and Subpart 4 sets out the Reserve Bank\u2019s rights in relation to deposits when compensation is paid to eligible investors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have over the course of this bill gone a bit round the houses about what level of deposit should be covered, and, obviously, we\u2019ve landed on the $100,000 protection. That will protect around 93 percent of deposits in New Zealand. It protects most people. If you think about it, it\u2019s $100,000 in each deposit, so people could have a number of different deposits in different institutions that are covered. We felt that that struck a good balance. There are always issues with things like moral hazard here in making sure that we actually make sure that people take responsibility for their actions, but, equally, we\u2019ll want to provide that level of protection to New Zealanders. Common schemes overseas\u2014some of them have slightly higher levels of protection, but we think this is the appropriate balance level for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo this is a part of the bill that I think is extremely important, and one that I\u2019m very proud to present to the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3192afb3e5e4f94ace60facd5af925f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3192afb3e5e4f94ace60facd5af925f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, that was a useful introduction. I suppose I\u2019m interested in the issue around the $100,000 and what it covered, and particularly in clause 191. As the Minister was aware, there\u2019s a great deal of debate around whether a New Zealander holding currency deposits offshore should be covered or not, or, if an offshore entity has currency deposits sitting in New Zealand, whether those are covered. And it might be useful for the Minister, just to help anyone who is listening, as to whether which of those two are covered under the deposit scheme set out in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing, clause 191(2) refers to \u201Cprotected deposit\u201D and does not include a debt security, and that\u2019s a defined term at the front. But, again, it would be useful for the Minister just to identify whether that covers a debenture, a bond, a commercial paper, or any of those types of instruments, which in some cases could move into quasi-equity debt instruments, quasi-equity debt\u2014mezzanine equity instruments is probably the better term to use. Which of those might be covered? Again, it would be very useful for the Minister just to help us all understand exactly what\u2019s in and what\u2019s out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225c62ffbe022d4c778d83fe6123d49275\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c62ffbe022d4c778d83fe6123d49275\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. Just following on from that contribution, I\u2019m interested in regards to Subpart 2 around the \u201CDepositor Compensation Fund\u201D and, in particular, if the Minister could provide some context in terms of the funding profile which will be funded through the levy and at which point the appropriateness, or the target fund value, will be reached, and over how many years, potentially, that will take in order to get to a point where the fund reaches a threshold which is deemed adequate for a stress event that may trigger that\u2014acknowledging there\u2019s quite a significant range in terms of what those events could look like. But is there any consideration around that point, and over what time period would that look like, and in the interim period, in the initiation phases of the bill and while that is building up, what the funding dynamic looks like. I guess, assuming that the Crown would write a cheque, but I just want clarity around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect, I know the Minister is very supportive of inflation adjustment, but there\u2019s 100 grand that we refer to\u2014was any consideration given around a mechanism to review and adjust, particularly around the inflation aspects? Because, you know, the reality is, if we\u2019re standing here in five years\u2019 time, what is appropriate, particularly under the current inflationary environment, will no doubt be higher than the current numbers in there. And just what, if any, consideration has been given to ensuring that the numbers within that keep pace with the economic reality that we face here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022da02f84d8b5e42dbaaf2da978f7eca27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da02f84d8b5e42dbaaf2da978f7eca27\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I\u2019m just conscious that the Minister\u2019s getting some advice, so I appreciate that. I\u2019ll just turn to a slightly different topic while the Minister\u2019s getting that advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis refers to clause 233. There\u2019s a number of clauses here that deal with the calculation of what is the nature, extent, of the deposit insurance money that\u2019s going to be paid, and clause 233 provides for the bank \u201Cto appoint 1 or more persons as reviewer as soon as is reasonably practicable after (a) a resolution ends \u2026 or (b) the Bank pays money out of the fund\u201D. So this is a review process and it goes through in clause 233(2), saying \u201CBefore appointing the reviewer, the Bank must be satisfied that the \u2026 [reviewer] has the appropriate knowledge, [and] skills\u201D\u2014that\u2019s good. In clause 233(3), the reviewer must \u201C(a) assess whether the Bank\u2019s calculation of the maximum amount complies with (i) the regulations \u2026 [etc., etc., etc.] \u2026 (b) prepare a draft report \u2026 and (c) consult the Bank on the draft report; and [then] (d) provide a final report to the Bank\u201D after taking account of the bank\u2019s comments on the draft. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThen there\u2019s a very important thing in clause 233(4): \u201CThe reviewer may, when acting under \u2026 [this provision], only take into account information known to the Bank at the time that it makes the calculation\u201D. So you can\u2019t be hammering people for things you didn\u2019t know at the time that payments were made. And clause 233(5): \u201CThe Bank must publish the final report on its Internet site.\u201D But the bit I want to highlight is in the next subclause. New subclause 233(6), states \u201CThe Bank may redact any information from the final report that is published\u201D\u2014remember, it\u2019s got to be published and it\u2019s got to be republished on the Reserve Bank\u2019s internet site\u2014\u201Cif the Bank considers there would be a good reason for withholding the information under the Official Information Act 1982 if a request for that information were made under that Act.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s an extraordinary little clause sitting in this Deposit Takers Bill. And to be honest, I hadn\u2019t really noticed it until I was reading through this and having a pretty good look at it. So this is meaning that the bank could doctor the report and in some cases make it meaningless if it so felt. So if the Opposition finance member wanted to find out about it, if the bank wanted to find out about what was in the final report, all of that may be precluded and is allowed for in contravention to the Official Information Act 1982. So maybe the Minister can just help\u2014why this extraordinary power is in this bill and why it is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00224965ae48e2ac48e88b87e49f6c22cda0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224965ae48e2ac48e88b87e49f6c22cda0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Just to just cover off a few of the questions and comments that have been made\u2014with respect to Mr Bayly\u2019s earlier remarks, the scheme is designed to cover New Zealand denominated accounts. There is a provision, which I think Mr Bayly probably knows about, for foreign currency to potentially come into the scheme at some point, but at this stage it isn\u2019t in the scheme; it\u2019s obviously accounts that operate through New Zealand banks or offshore-owned banks where there is a New Zealand subsidiary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the comments made about the amount of money, the $100,000 level, it is commonplace in these sorts of pieces of legislation to insert a dollar amount. The idea of inflation indexing that would create a great deal of confusion, because inflation, obviously, does go up and down and there would be a need to work out how you would do that, on what basis\u2014would you do it on a time basis? You know, every few years? In the end, as we do with most other bits of legislation, we put a dollar amount in. If the occasion arises in the future where we feel that not a sufficient number of depositors are covered by the Act, then one could come and amend the Act. But, as we would do in others, it\u2019s pretty difficult to peg it to something that moves around so often that it would make it very confusing and I would imagine probably lower trust in the scheme. So that\u2019s why we have the specific dollar amount. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of Mr Bayly\u2019s final point on clause 233\u2014I mean, bear in mind that this is a very specific clause about an independent review of a resolution process under this part of the bill or of the Act. It would be normal, I would think, when you think about the kinds of entities that will be being discussed, the potential for particularly privacy issues\u2014so sections 9(2)(a) and (b) of the Official Information Act cover the privacy of natural persons. And you can imagine when a review has been undertaken in this way that there may be a need to withhold some elements of the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI think, as in a few of the other comments made earlier this evening by the member and one of the other Opposition members, we always have to remember that the Reserve Bank is operating here in its independent way. It has a piece of legislation. It has to obey the law. It has to fit within the law, but it\u2019s also responsible for some really important activities on behalf of New Zealanders: making sure in this case that they\u2019ve been properly paid out, if the deposit compensation scheme is required to be put in place in other clauses around supervision of banking entities. They need the powers that they need in order to be able to give New Zealanders confidence. They also have to obey the law and I think that particular clause is appropriate in this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002272eac4f437bb4c1e85fba107385ad1f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272eac4f437bb4c1e85fba107385ad1f8\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that response, Minister. I suppose it\u2019s the way that the clauses are worded. If the assertion of what the Minister\u2019s just said, that the Reserve Bank can redact, under the current provisions of the oversight of the Official Information Act, then that\u2019s fine. Because any entity has to comply with the Official Information Act and there are reasons why you can redact some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the way that this is worded in Subpart 6 maybe\u2014and maybe this is what I\u2019m trying to understand\u2014implies that the Bank actually has a discretion even outside the Official Information Act requirements. Because it says the Bank may redact any information from the final report if the Bank considers there\u2019s \u201Ca good reason\u201D, not as allowed for or provided for under the Official Information Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the bit that I\u2019m getting at. If it can redact, because it\u2019s currently allowed under the Official Information Act, I get it; and I think that was the Minister\u2019s assertion before. What this is saying\u2014and it seems to suggest that the Reserve Bank has a discretion even outside the Official Information Act, to redact any information. That\u2019s a bit I\u2019m seeking clarification on, and I\u2019m just conscious he may need to talk to officials, but I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002230ebd6d4ef454a58b8f9bfebc6bf7502\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230ebd6d4ef454a58b8f9bfebc6bf7502\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E No, no, I don\u2019t. The point I make here is the member needs to go back and read what 233 is about. The person being appointed here is, in fact, independent of the Bank. So what the clause is trying to do is ensure that any actions from a report undertaken by someone who\u2019s independent would also be covered by something akin to the Official Information Act (OIA).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EActually, I think, when the member takes the time to read that clause, he will see that the linkage actually makes it very strong that it would need to be a good reason for withholding information as if it was under the OIA. So I think it achieves the goal that we both want there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u002248c7714cb874429e874d8afc4c57e0b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248c7714cb874429e874d8afc4c57e0b1\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a question with regards to the use of the Silicon Valley Bank as an example. That was technically a wholesale banking run, right? That\u2019s where it started and that\u2019s where the bailouts occurred. So we\u2019ve obviously got examples closer to home in our recent history that fits these criteria better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EBut I just have one question on moral hazard. As long as depositors are confident in choosing how our depository interests that the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (RBNZ) has their back, what could go wrong in terms of financial stability and risk? Should I repeat that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c54f637d4ea4093b24196640c36f850\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f1482ce0c27414c966b48f18fe515a7\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: As long as depositors are confident when choosing higher deposit interests that the RBNZ has their back, what could potentially go wrong in terms of moral hazard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022c11c668efa074bf68d2cd87c221ba77f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c11c668efa074bf68d2cd87c221ba77f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I mean, a range of issues could occur but the point is that we\u2019re trying to strike a balance here between confidence that people\u2019s deposits are safe, that they know that if the worst thing happens, they can get at least up to a hundred thousand dollars back. The Reserve Bank\u2019s overall regulatory policy framework and supervisory framework should be giving us confidence that the moral hazard is unlikely to take place or to occur, and people will need to monitor their risk, particularly if they\u2019re outside of what is regarded as the Reserve Bank\u2019s\u2014you know, a deposit taker that is covered by the Reserve Bank\u2019s core functions. But moral hazard exists simply by the nature of the scheme existing. What we\u2019re trying to do is find a balance so that it doesn\u2019t encourage or incentivise risky behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat would go wrong, to answer the member\u2019s question, would be if the supervisory and conduct work that the bank does hadn\u2019t worked up until that point, at which point we would have highly risky entities which would then likely see the scheme utilised more often. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s what will occur because of the mitigation put in place by having those conduct and supervisory provisions that are earlier in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022edd3d84ae1ca488eb38f36f84be27050\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edd3d84ae1ca488eb38f36f84be27050\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got a question in regards to subparagraph (ii) of clause 198(a), \u201CPayments out of fund\u201D, and this relates to the paying out of the bank\u2019s expenditure. So, as part of the Deposit Compensation Fund, there\u2019ll be a fund built up. This provision allows payments to go out of that fund, as the Minister of Finance articulated in his opening address. But subparagraph (ii) of clause 198(a) relates to the portion of that fund being paid out is actually expenditure that\u2019s incurred by the Reserve Bank in regards to the provision or running of the overall fund. I acknowledge that that is appropriate, but my questions are in regards to how much we expect that the bank is going to be spending on administrating this fund and whether any budgets or consideration around headcount or costs have been considered yet, and whether that is, in the context, material or not. The other aspect is whether that actual budget, which obviously takes it in, as a drawer, out of that overall fund\u2014that means that that money is no longer available to be paid out to depositors in this scenario\u2014will have any cap or whether any other budgetary restrictions will be placed around that, acknowledging that that will be a sub-portion of the budget within the Reserve Bank, so not a separate line item, or maybe it might be in regards to the appropriation to the Reserve Bank in regards to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy second question is in regards to clause 218 of Part 6, around \u201CPayment of entitlements\u201D. My question here is, and I guess it\u2019s more of a generic question: in a scenario where a stress event triggers that a payment needs to be made out and the bank\u2019s gone through the process to calculate what that payment is for a relative individual or an investor, what is the time period, or what is the expected time period, that individuals would expect to need to wait before they would be paid out from this compensation scheme? Because the Minister outlined, in his opening address, in regards to the recent example in the US around Silicon Valley Bank and that process, and a lot of this aspect or the anxiety related to banking collapse is not only in their compensation, which, obviously, this will deal with, but the certainty in terms of a time period in which that will be paid out. It\u2019s not clear, necessarily, whether there is any set time frames in which there is an expectation that that will be resolved, but if the Minister could provide any clarity in regards to that, that would be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022122e2c9db283421ab80e4bfec220bfdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022122e2c9db283421ab80e4bfec220bfdf\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to cover off a couple of those points. I mean, the first overall point is obviously that what happens once we pass this piece of legislation is that the final details of the scheme and of the fund will be agreed, and it\u2019s important that the consultation takes place between those who will be regulated by the scheme and those who will be levied and the Reserve Bank itself. I would note that later on in Subpart 7, the Minister is obliged to publish a statement of funding approach, and then Subpart 6 that appears before is around the striking of the levies for the scheme. That includes the Governor-General, by Order in Council, making those regulations for providing the levies. That includes a series of recommendations based on the principles of levies being prescribed on the basis of the lists that are in subclauses (2) and (3) of clause 237, so there are a number of regulations that sit around that that will provide transparency to people around what money is being used for what purpose under the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the timing issue for the member Simon Watts, I will just seek a little bit of advice on that, but that is probably a matter that I imagine will be dealt with as the scheme is finally designed. In other jurisdictions, it is very important that people are paid out swiftly and rapidly, and that\u2019s how we get confidence in the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223879850638bd41878c9f268544c396d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223879850638bd41878c9f268544c396d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 6 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 361 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b07ad3e069214bd4b1bf49655785aa97\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a7f1a92d8d0b475aa4cd484cd87b56d5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 6 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 73\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000704\u0022\u003EPart 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db6cdd57aed5462386ab359cee36579a\u0022\u003EPart 7  Crisis management and resolution\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227d33861b0b5b4f148e7d6a0079596d34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d33861b0b5b4f148e7d6a0079596d34\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 7. This is the debate on clauses 256 to 421\u2014crisis management and resolution. The question is that Part 7 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab5609fac5f3401bbc39e429953948ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab5609fac5f3401bbc39e429953948ec\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd945aa8b014d7ba8b7d3567d109a19\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: A quick\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c8840c45c13440ca9f399940d400651\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I was just waiting for Shanan Halbert to stand up and give us a contribution. I was just giving the opportunity to members of the Labour Party to actually make a contribution to this debate, so I apologise for being a bit tardy, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo this is quite an important part of this bill\u2014as the Minister no doubt knows\u2014and I think it is fair to say after the CBL Insurance debacle, it is welcome that we now see, in this part, arrangements for an orderly and planned process if entities get into trouble and there\u2019s a way for the banks to look after it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI suppose my reading of it is it\u2019s almost like an administration-type arrangement under the auspices of the Reserve Bank without formally going into a receivership situation, which means you\u2019ve got to appoint a receiver; or even liquidation, where it\u2019s subject to different law. My reading of this is this is undertaken where there\u2019s a work-out opportunity or, in fact, there\u2019s such a degree of risk or a potential impact on the financial sector that it is important for the Bank to manage it in an orderly way because it may impact on the standing of New Zealand internationally, but certainly may impact on the way depositors view entities in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo that part of it\u2019s all pretty good. There\u2019s a couple of little things I did want to talk about. Clause 295: \u201CBank is [the] resolution authority\u201D and \u201Cthe Bank must act as a resolution authority in relation to the resolution of the licensed deposit taker.\u201D Then it states that the Bank can appoint a resolution manager\u2014and the appointment of the resolution manager is covered in clause 354\u2014which means that that resolution manager\u2014can it be the Bank itself that\u2019s expressly provided for, or in fact can it be someone else that the bank thinks is appropriate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat may be useful is for the Minister just to set out what is the role of the resolution authority, and what is the role of the manager; and when might be appropriate that the Reserve Bank acts both as the resolution authority, as provided for under clause 295; and the resolution manager, as provided in the subsequent clauses. Because just understanding the context for this and how that comes about, and why we would end up with those sort of situations, would be useful to have an understanding on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002251f1b694f0cf4095b03129b24039a69b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251f1b694f0cf4095b03129b24039a69b\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. My questions relate to Part 7, clauses 346\u2014which is part of Subpart 7, where the Minister may give directions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI guess the point of clarity here is that we make a lot of the fact that the Reserve Bank, in particular, sits very much independent from the members of this House and, in particular, the Minister in regards to not taking direct direction. But these aspects of the bill do provide quite wide-ranging powers to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI refer specifically to clause 347 in regards to where the Minister may direct the Bank relating to the exercise of resolution power. This can include whether a resolution is actually exercised or not, the manner in which it\u2019s exercised, and the way in which that power is exercised in terms of both the terms and conditions that are set in regards to it, but also, you know, clause 347(f), which refers to\u2014it\u2019s another one of these catch-all statements\u2014\u201Ctake any other action that is specified to avoid or minimise, or otherwise manage the risk\u201D, which is quite generic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I guess I\u2019m seeking clarity from the Minister in regards to the appropriateness of the Minister getting involved to make directions to the Bank, the appropriateness of this, and in what circumstances would that be foreseen and the consideration around the threshold for which the Minister would consider it appropriate to step in to that aspect. Acknowledging the importance of the fact that the Bank is, and does, operate as an independent entity from the Minister in normal business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022d74c2a4cf5034b6493e18b799f861428\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d74c2a4cf5034b6493e18b799f861428\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Both of the questions asked by Mr Bayly and Mr Watts are, in fact, laid out in the bill. I just take Mr Watts\u2019 last statement: it\u2019s very, very clear when one reads clause 346 exactly when this would apply. It wouldn\u2019t be a matter of choice for the Minister at the time if they thought that this was something that they should do; it actually follows on very strongly that this is around public money. It\u2019s the use of the word \u201Cand\u201D that will help everyone follow clause 346 through. It has to involve public money and, indeed, that there would be a material risk to the prudent management of public money. That is the circumstances in which a Minister would be involved. Similarly, the role of the resolution authority and the resolution manager are laid out in a variety of clauses in the bill, which are quite easy to read and follow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002274818cf668e14f6c91d8827976610ab9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274818cf668e14f6c91d8827976610ab9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 7 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 361 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EPart 7 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002220168f2e54d4401babfcb057bc0f7e85\u0022\u003EPart 8  Miscellaneous\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022760724c73353492ab2c6b8d631022ef7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022760724c73353492ab2c6b8d631022ef7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 8. This is the debate on clauses 422 to 471 and Schedule 2, \u201CMiscellaneous\u201D. The question is that Part 8 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 8 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 361 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000725\u0022\u003EPart 8 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f752d617e6340ffb4ba07d41562f427\u0022\u003EPart 9  Repeals and amendments to other Acts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7c60c55788743b299326492792d9ab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7c60c55788743b299326492792d9ab3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 9. This is the debate on clauses 472 to 490 and Schedule 3, \u201CRepeals and amendments to other Acts\u201D. The question is that Part 9 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b524849dae8a4106a9f01e3b1dfdb124\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b524849dae8a4106a9f01e3b1dfdb124\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. My questions are in regards to the replacement sections that have been inserted under clause 486\u2014in particular, replacement section 25C, inserted by clause 486 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo this is \u201CExpenses or capital expenditure in connection with financial institution in serious financial difficulties\u201D. Obviously, the whole point of this bill is to provide a mechanism to deal with this exact scenario. What\u2019s interesting around replacement section 25C(1) in particular is that it provides the powers to the Minister to approve the expenses for capital expenditure in relation to the situation, whether or not there is an appropriation by Parliament available. That\u2019s pretty reasonable in regards to the powers that are being provided in regards to that, because normally in this House the allocation of any capital or expenditures is through a formalised appropriation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d79181a637e48e09e0062a95049aa39\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Not always.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab23d8548e34490295652450d40da653\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Not always, but in these instances, you know, the control environment around that is one in which I\u2019m seeking some clarity from the Minister in regards to a scenario around what that would look like, and the process in which we would expect to ensure that where there isn\u2019t an appropriation by Parliament\u2014what that would look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EReplacement section 25C(2) refers to \u201CPublic money may be spent, without further authority than this section,\u201D\u2014again, linking back to the other aspect. So a little bit of clarity in regards to that aspect and ensuring that Ministers are not off spending money willy-nilly without appropriate controls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e05bcd753fa940e68d8be437680c3bc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e05bcd753fa940e68d8be437680c3bc1\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d never do that. This, effectively, brings into line the regime that\u2019s covered by this Act with what happens in a civil defence or health emergency. So, essentially\u2014under various bits of legislation\u2014it is possible to incur unappropriated expenditure because you just have to do it. You know, there is a major event occurring and there\u2019s no time to come to Parliament and seek that appropriation. This sets up a similar process here. It\u2019s a longstanding issue with the Public Finance Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is limited by way of what is in the replacement section 25B(2), inserted by clause 486\u2014this is obviously an amendment to the Public Finance Act we\u2019re dealing with here\u2014and it has to be in the \u201Csituation [where it] is necessary or desirable to do either or both of the following: (i) maintain the stability of the financial system: (ii) maintain the continuity of systemically important activities undertaken by 1 or more regulated entities; and (b) that there is no reasonable prospect of the situation being adequately dealt with to the Minister\u2019s satisfaction in a timely and orderly way other than through exercising the power under section 25C.\u201D So highly exceptional circumstances, the stability of the entire financial system, systemically important activities by a regulated entity\u2014so, essentially, a Government entity being compromised\u2014and that there would be no way of dealing with it under a normal circumstance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen, should it happen, replacement section 25C(3) means that we have to report it in the annual financial statements and it has to go through either a Supplementary Estimates, like we had today, or an Appropriation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill. So there\u2019s plenty of checks and balances, but the kind of emergency is a financial emergency akin to a civil defence or a health one. This will make it consistent with those provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002248b59a64cf0a4485aa3aee0f73f95898\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248b59a64cf0a4485aa3aee0f73f95898\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thank you, Minister\u2014that was very useful. Maybe just a slight elaboration: could the Minister contemplate, given the history of New Zealand, what circumstances he may have applied it? For instance, when Bank of New Zealand was in trouble back in the 1980s, I presume that may have been one where we may have applied this. Certainly where the continuity of systemically important activities like the payments in New Zealand was to have trouble\u2014I imagine that would probably lead to this power being exercised. But when you look at the make-up of the banking sector in New Zealand and the deposit-taking sector\u2014obviously, we have four or five very significant banking operations, and then we have a number of smaller deposit takers. Would he envisage exercising these specific rules for a deposit taker who might have less than 1 percent of the market share? So I\u2019m just trying to understand where his views would be that you would cut in, and where it might be, and using history to maybe demonstrate that wisdom that he may have to display\u2014hopefully not in the next three months\u2014but if he were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002292d7716ef9324901a6af5de880d57c3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292d7716ef9324901a6af5de880d57c3d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t think there\u2019s a need to stretch this particular part of the debate out. The clause that I read out, 25B(2) is very clear on the extent of the kind of issue here. It is not a minor or trivial matter; it is a matter where there is a systemically important entity involved or where the entire stability of the financial system is involved. Any Minister would take advice on where that kicks in, but it\u2019s clearly not a minor matter. I\u2019m not going to choose to speak about any specific event at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002279de5ab41570403a899a033dc92b6dcd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 9 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 9 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022711a194b499d4344a093ef440d93a0c9\u0022\u003ESchedules 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022310b60b4aa964d53ac971d03550f0706\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022310b60b4aa964d53ac971d03550f0706\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to Schedule 1. The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 361 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d27f9e790edd4a4b8533bb1e476245c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d27f9e790edd4a4b8533bb1e476245c5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 361 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022033959359ec94679bccbfa5befb1ed5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022033959359ec94679bccbfa5befb1ed5e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to Schedule 3. The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 361 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002267553941805f4872a5131d2ae06d7d0b\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229f05f57deb53498aaeba52f448dc7f5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f05f57deb53498aaeba52f448dc7f5b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate: clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, title and commencement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd70e961b4d4f0da8dffd28314e9336\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd70e961b4d4f0da8dffd28314e9336\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It would be useful for the Minister to just identify why, under clause 2(3), the commencement date for \u201CAny part of the Act that has not come into for by\u201D\u2014originally, it was the fifth, and now it\u2019s been amended to \u201Cthe sixth anniversary of Royal assent\u201D. Maybe it would be useful just for the Minister to state why that has occurred, because that\u2019s obviously important in terms of its implementation date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022294d43aad3cd4662bcdda0331d6503dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022294d43aad3cd4662bcdda0331d6503dc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019ll let you know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f79f51a2724941639ef1db9f3f763f05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f79f51a2724941639ef1db9f3f763f05\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 361 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bc0592699624ef6b3d702f3319c47ed\u0022\u003EFuel Industry Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002264996a11293944f9b24f1f2823494230\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecfd5421316248bc9eef6ba9628929bd\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224cee52d211e3439ba2087e8162797503\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cee52d211e3439ba2087e8162797503\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Fuel Industry Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00226ab89c30d96b45cf87fbe666c3ffd693\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ab89c30d96b45cf87fbe666c3ffd693\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227d305098a7a54b29950428cb1db8e613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d305098a7a54b29950428cb1db8e613\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. The question is that Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022626d2735e21740f2a24094676b22f1a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022626d2735e21740f2a24094676b22f1a8\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on this Fuel Industry Amendment Bill. The National Party doesn\u2019t support this bill. In fact, we see some real risks with this particular bill. Price controls often have perverse effects. If they were a good idea, everything would be controlled\u2014every price would be controlled, rather than it being a very rare event. We saw through the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee very little in the way of justification for price controls. There were some significant questions around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EA good example of where price control doesn\u2019t work is in the UK with the gas market over there, where price caps were brought in with rising wholesale gas prices, and, in fact, it led to widespread failures and a de facto nationalisation of the gas industry over in that area. What\u2019s to say that\u2019s not going to happen here? There certainly hasn\u2019t been a case made for it other than wanting to have central control\u2014unjustifiably, in our view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut in new section 29A, \u201CInterpretation and overview\u201D inserted by clause 4, it goes through, particularly in new section 29A(2)(a): \u201Cthe Commission holds an inquiry into whether to regulate the terminal gate prices, and then makes a recommendation to the Minister under section 29G:\u201D. But in new section 29A(2)(d): \u201Cfor each [of the] regulated terminal gate price (or group of regulated terminal gate prices), the Commission makes a determination under section 29L specifying the pricing principles or [the] pricing methodologies that apply.\u201D So what I would like the Minister to tell us is what the definition is of the pricing principles. What pricing principles are acceptable? What pricing principles are not acceptable? I can\u2019t see any definition in the bill of what those principles are, and I\u2019d really like to hear from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt also says \u201Cor pricing methodologies that apply.\u201D Again, I would like to know what the definition of those pricing methodologies is, and what would be viewed as good methodologies, what would be viewed as bad methodologies. What would lead to the Minister or the commission recommending to the Minister that price controls be implemented? That is a key part to this piece of legislation, and I think most members would agree that if you\u2019re going to have price controls, that needs to be incredibly well defined. It needs to be beyond reproach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a significant impost on a free market, having a body like the Commerce Commission reaching into those businesses and actually telling them how to run their day-to-day business by setting a price. How do we know? Because what normally happens is that the market will settle, and the market will settle at a price that might be not the lowest price; they\u2019ll work it out not by collaborating together, but with those sorts of controls in the market you\u2019re not going to find the innovators. The innovations are not going to come to lead to lower prices, which is what, ultimately, the consumers would benefit from and our economy would benefit from, but, instead, we\u2019ll end up with a controlled sector that will have unnecessarily high prices, probably. I think that\u2019s a likely outcome from this particular bill. But if we could have an explanation for what those pricing principles are and what those pricing methodologies are, that might help us understand what was the genesis for this bill and how that\u2019s mechanically going to be worked through so that we can see whether the actual work went in behind this before this came out, or was it a knee-jerk reaction? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThere is a thing in the fuel sector known as the Gull effect\u2014that is, where the Gull company goes and sets up in business, the prices drop in that region, which is exactly what a free market does. That\u2019s what happens. Why don\u2019t we allow that to happen? No, no, because we\u2019re going to control it. It\u2019s also Timaru Oil Services, and, in my patch anyway, NPD. They are probably the lowest. They\u2019ve certainly had a lowering effect. All of the fuel companies try to keep up with them, but they have innovative pricing promotions that they put out on quite a regular basis. They email their customers when it\u2019s coming up, and their fuel stations are widely frequented when they\u2019ve got those low-price deals on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo what I want to know is: will these pricing methodologies and pricing principles preclude companies from doing that? Why would they bother if the price is going to be fixed anyway by the all-knowing Commerce Commission? I think it\u2019s highly unlikely we\u2019ll end up with a very fair pricing regime at all; we\u2019ll end up with more expensive prices. But I\u2019m sure that the Minister\u2019s going to give us a good answer and tell us exactly what those principles are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00227f9d83a5d9ca4ff5800bffbf5fda9d47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f9d83a5d9ca4ff5800bffbf5fda9d47\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E I follow on from my good colleague and friend Stuart Smith, who\u2019s asked some really sensible questions. While the Minister\u2019s considering how to answer those, perhaps she could also let the committee know where in the world the imposition of price regulation on a commodity product that we now import entirely has ever worked. She might recall that in the COVID lockdown times, we actually ended up at the bottom of the supply chain and that we lost supply not only so much of fuel but also of many commodities where we were the last ship coming in. All our ships went off to Australian ports, rather than ours, because they had more cargo on board. What\u2019s the guarantee that price fixing by the Commerce Commission would actually not lead to some commodities, such as fuel, suddenly not turning up when it should?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would have thought that, given that the Government has decided in its\u2014I would have said \u201Cwisdom\u201D, but that\u2019s just too generous\u2014has decided on a whim to end the offshore oil and gas exploration and to allow the Marsden Point refinery to close without a whimper\u2014not even a whimper, the company told me. But they are actually now putting us in a difficult position of saying, \u201CAnd now we\u2019re going to be one of the very few liberal democracies in the world that thinks that a commerce commission, a Government entity, as such, has the right to determine the price of an internationally traded commodity.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EShe might be well aware too that in some parts of the world where this has been tried, it can lead to all sorts of issues around supply. But also, as my colleague Stuart Smith pointed out, the issue around not actually encouraging competition, because certainly I am one of the many people who has the Gaspy app on my phone and I look at the fuel prices of various places when I\u2019m going to fill up my car, and I make an informed decision based on the prices and what it is that I\u2019m paying for and where I am and where those fuel companies are based. I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister about where this has been tried and where it has worked. Has it led to less competition or more competition? Has it led to more supply or less supply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe other thing, while the Minister is thinking of answers to these questions, she might like to answer: since the fuel taxes that are paid on fuel are, in fact, such a large proportion of the cost of fuel, and also to those of us who buy our fuel, she might want to ask whether the Government is going to continue down the path of taxing it at the level that it is, given that I note from 1 July that the rebate that had been granted on the fuel taxes is coming off and we are all expecting, those of us who pay for our own fuel, that our prices are going to go up around 29c a litre. None of that is money that is going to the fuel companies; all of it is money going to the Government\u2019s coffers. So I think, if we\u2019re going to have a restriction, or any threat of restriction, from the Commerce Commission\u2014not always an entity that has always covered itself in glory on these matters\u2014perhaps we might wonder whether or not they might consider, as the Government for the few months that they\u2019re going to be there, whether or not they\u2019d like to bring their own taxes down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cef6d0d2ee094ed3aee9ed1412c7f833\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cef6d0d2ee094ed3aee9ed1412c7f833\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E There are a couple of questions in there that I\u2019d like to address with this contribution. A member asked about the principles and methodologies that lie behind this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut before I get into that, I think it\u2019s important to go through exactly what the purpose of this bill is, where it came from, and why it is happening, very briefly. This, of course, is not about a regime to set and to have Government setting the price of petrol in the ordinary course of events; what it is is providing a regulatory backstop where there is a consideration that the market is not functioning in a competitive way to the benefit of consumers. Of course, what we\u2019re doing here was a recommendation of the fuel market study that the Commerce Commission carried out. Mr Smith talked at length about the Gull effect. Well, Gull have said that they wouldn\u2019t be able to operate in parts of the country without the terminal gate pricing regime that was put in place under the original piece of legislation. They\u2019ve come out and explicitly said that. The ability for us to actually have a more competitive South Island fuel market is down to the changes that have been affected by the legislation that has been put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the questions around the principles and methodology, there was a piece of work that consciously decided that you could not get too prescriptive around what that would be. I\u2019ll go through the section of the Act that sets out what the criteria for decision making of when to trigger the backstop comes through. But in terms of being able to anticipate every set of circumstances and prescribe that in the legislation, it was not the best way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut I will advise Mr Smith to turn to new section 29L, inserted by clause 4, of the bill, and about the commission determination about how the regulation applies. So in (1A) of that new section, it talks about \u201CIn considering whether the Act\u2019s purpose is promoted in making a determination, the Commission must take into account the outcomes that would be expected in a competitive market, including wholesale suppliers\u2019 incentives to invest to meet the demand of end users of engine fuel products.\u201D So the scenario that the Hon Judith Collins was talking about in terms of the driving out competition wouldn\u2019t apply, because this is triggering if there is a situation where it is demonstrably that a company is working outside of what you\u2019d expect in a competitive market. It gives the Commerce Commission the ability to investigate that, to use the tools that it has at its disposal, and see whether that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll also briefly address the points that the Hon Judith Collins made about security of supply. I guess the other important piece of work that we have been doing since the commercial decision was made to close down Marsden Point, of course, is about our onshore stockholdings. That\u2019s not in this bill; that is a separate piece of legislation. But as that honourable member will know, who herself is a former Minister of Energy, that Marsden Point simply was not set up to refine the light crudes that we produce here in New Zealand. In order to do that, there would have had to have been a substantial reconfiguration of Marsden Point. I\u2019m always interested when I hear the National Party discuss this, because I never once heard them suggest that they were going to put up the hundreds of millions of dollars to buy it and make that conversion. But if that\u2019s a point of debate that they want to continue through, I think it would be an interesting one for us to have. Thank you, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002286b8b14e4b7648f0ab79878812aec557\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286b8b14e4b7648f0ab79878812aec557\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister, for the opportunity to ask some questions about this bill. Now, what is the problem that this bill tries to solve? Apparently, some fuel companies might set wholesale fuel prices that the Minister considers excessive or that somebody at the Commerce Commission decides, based on principles unknown, that a fuel company is charging an excessive amount for petrol and diesel at the terminal gate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, we have terminal gate pricing. I\u2019ve just jumped online and had a look at Z Energy and Mobil. If I was a registered terminal gate customer, I could send my truck and trailer there right now to pick up a load of gas from Wiri or, if I was in the South Island, from Timaru or Dunedin, and I know what the terminal gate price is. Now, that\u2019s not to say I couldn\u2019t get a better price if I was a bigger customer and I was filling up dozens and dozens of diggers and trucks a day, because terminal gate pricing is just one mechanism to indicate what the wholesale price is generally. But that\u2019s not to say that some customers can\u2019t get better deals because they buy more fuel. Maybe they pay on seven-day terms rather than on 28-day terms; maybe they\u2019re just more trustworthy and have a better credit rating so they get better prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat is the problem this Government is trying to solve with this bill? Well, when I look at the wholesale price of fuel right now, for 91 petrol, the importer\u2019s cost is $1.018, and this is according to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019s (MBIE) own weekly fuel price monitoring data, which is available to anybody who wants to jump on the MBIE website and search for it. So the cost of 91 petrol at the moment is about $1.01 per litre to import. The margin on that, the importer\u2019s margin, is about 32.9c, but remember that\u2019s margin; it\u2019s not profit margin. They still have to pay costs out of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen the ETS\u2014the emissions trading scheme\u2014price, which means that everybody who fills up with petrol and diesel pays for their emissions; the emissions trading scheme price on a litre of 91 is 13.8c per litre. The fuel excise duty is 86.3c per litre, and the GST is 30.6c per litre. So for a litre of 91 petrol, it costs $1.01 to get into the country. The importer makes 32c a litre gross, but the Government takes $1.30 a litre\u2014the Government takes $1.30 a litre, and the importer\u2019s margin is 32c. So if there was a problem with the cost of fuel, this Government just needs to walk up to a very small mirror, because it is the problem\u2014a small mirror will show the Government that it is the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what would make New Zealanders feel better about paying this fuel tax\u2014this $1.30 a litre? Is it because they get world-class roads? Is it because there\u2019s no potholes on their journey? Even today, State Highway 1, Dome Valley, was closed due to a slip. Trucks and private vehicles were being rerouted along roads that New Zealand Transport Agency has said are unsuitable for heavy vehicles. How many times has Dome Valley been closed? Is this climate change? Is it excessive rainfall caused by climate change? Did this Government declare a nuclear-free moment\u2014that climate change was this generation\u2019s nuclear-free moment, and, if so, why aren\u2019t they spending some of this fuel tax money they collect from motorists on actually fixing roads? Or maybe the problem\u2019s not with the wholesale fuel price; maybe it\u2019s that the public have lost trust in this Government to spend money on important things, things that New Zealanders need, like roads so they can get around safely, that don\u2019t wash out or have rocks fall on to them every time there is a shower of rain?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo do you think it\u2019s bad now that the price of 91 petrol\u2014$2.65 a litre, roundabout, when you add up the stats on MBIE\u2019s weekly fuel price monitor\u2014that will soon go up 25c a litre; on 30 June the Government\u2019s 25c a litre cut to fuel excise duty expires and so the petrol price that Kiwis will pay at the pump jumps from $2.65 to $2.90 a litre. So, Minister, a question: do you think Kiwis feel like they\u2019re getting value for money for the $1.30 a litre, soon to be $1.55 a litre that they\u2019re paying this Government to provide transportation services? Are Kiwis getting value for money\u2014motorists getting value for money, Minister? Secondly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa3d3728106478c8b03f80b9bb517e5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Court, now, you\u2019ve referred to the bill but you\u2019re not talking to it. Can we come back to the bill; you\u2019ve had a pretty good run. We are hearing it as one part so I\u2019ve been fairly generous, but now you\u2019re into your second five-minute slot; let\u2019s talk about the bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ded5826d356e4243b415bc97f136143a\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. So the question is: for $1.30 a litre, what additional increase in the wholesale fuel price\u2014currently $1.01 per litre\u2014how much would it have to move, to trigger the Government or the Commerce Commission, before they would look at the margin and they would say, \u201CCrikey, a margin\u2019s 32 cents a litre now.\u201D? How much would that margin have to increase, Minister, before that would trigger a review of fuel prices and potential imposition of a wholesale price? Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc2b68d14e804d1895f5b3511b862876\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc2b68d14e804d1895f5b3511b862876\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll answer the question that came at the end of that contribution. I refer the member to new section 29C of the legislation about \u201CWhen terminal gate prices may be regulated\u201D. It\u2019s for the relevant specified engine fuel and bulk storage facility that were above what would be expected in a competitive market. Now, obviously, in a competitive market, you\u2019re going to have a broad spread of prices. Everybody can see when they\u2019re driving around their own patch that prices at self-service petrol stations are much lower than they are at full-service petrol stations. There will also, therefore, be differences in terminal gate pricing in different places, but there are tests that need to be applied about what can be reasonably expected in a competitive market. This is about the functioning of that competitive market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe go then through to 29D, which specifies and lays out how the inquiry would be triggered and, then, through to 29E, the \u201CCommission inquiry into particular terminal gate prices\u201D. So there are various ways that it can be triggered: the commission can do it itself; the Minister can write to the commission and request it, but then there has to be an inquiry\u2014much like we have with the fuel market study. It\u2019s not just the commission makes a decision that they think that there\u2019s some anti-competitive behaviour and, therefore, can regulate the price at the terminal gate; there are specified processes that need to be gone through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00227dc098311b5b4efdbc15b2ad58701eb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dc098311b5b4efdbc15b2ad58701eb1\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, the Minister of Energy and Resources did attempt to answer the question I asked about pricing principles and methodologies, but she didn\u2019t actually answer the question. All we found is\u2014from her answer, to paraphrase her\u2014they didn\u2019t want too much control to limit their scope for making an inquiry and what actually defined the principles and the pricing methodologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d turn your attention to new section 29C, inserted by clause 4, \u201CWhen terminal gate prices may be regulated\u201D, because it goes, \u201CThe Commission may make a recommendation that price regulation should be imposed on terminal gate prices only if it is satisfied that the relevant wholesale supplier has posted terminal gate prices, for the relevant specified engine fuel and bulk storage facility, that were above what would be expected in a competitive market.\u201D In order to do that, you have to know\u2014not you, of course, Mr Chair, but the Commerce Commission\u2014would have to know what would be an expected price in a competitive market. One would expect that if they were to know that, they would need to know the principles and the methodologies that were utilised by other companies to ascertain those prices. But we didn\u2019t hear that from the Minister, so that doesn\u2019t seem like that\u2019s part of the scope of the commission\u2019s remit to investigate the market as to whether it\u2019s competitive or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThis is giving almost like \u201CHenry VIII\u201D - type powers to the commission on a whim, essentially, because either the Minister, in writing, or the commission can decide to undertake an inquiry themselves. They can go out and do it. If they say it\u2019s not competitive, it\u2019s not competitive. If they say the pricing methodologies are not good, they\u2019re not good. If the principles that are used are not acceptable to their standards, they\u2019re not acceptable. But any other type of regulation like this, we would all expect\u2014I think very fair to expect\u2014a definition that would be robust and would be able to be anchored in the legislation so that those companies that are subject to this, and the rest of the market in fact, can go back and look at that and say, \u201CWell, actually, that\u2019s fair enough, they\u2019re right. The commission is right, that company is not sticking to good market practices.\u201D, or not. But there\u2019s nothing; there\u2019s absolutely nothing. It was criticised by submitters that there was no definition. It\u2019s, I think, criticised by any right-thinking business people that you would expect, and, I think, the legal professional as well. Why would you have something that\u2019s not defined like that? That\u2019s just unbelievable. Everyone has the right to know the law\u2014you don\u2019t have to know it, but you should be able to know it if you want to\u2014and yet you can\u2019t in this. We can\u2019t; it\u2019s just ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a good enough explanation, Minister. Your officials must surely have a better explanation than that. I mean, we\u2019re talking about a serious issue here, and, going on and giving an example, it says, \u201CHowever, if only 1 supplier at 1 bulk storage facility has posted terminal gate prices for diesel that were above what would be expected in a competitive market, the Commission may recommend regulation only in respect of the diesel terminal gate prices\u201D. But how much difference does there have to be to trigger that? And I think the Minister alluded to not expecting all the companies to have the same prices in the same place, but it seems to me that that\u2019s practically what they\u2019re going to do. How much difference would be expected to trigger a non-competitive market, Minister? That\u2019s what I\u2019d like to know. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224847b8529e134babb3a0b107f17a5520\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224847b8529e134babb3a0b107f17a5520\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, first of all, I\u2019m going to congratulate the Minister for doing Supplementary Order Paper 364, because at least the Minister has attempted to identify a couple of the costs: namely there is, publicly listed, the total excise duty and the total amount to be paid within the current market price of the emissions trading scheme. So it shows you can do some of it, but I think what my good colleague Mr Smith is talking about is very, very relevant. I used to chair a shipping company and we used to ship fuel, and I also sold New Zealand\u2019s largest fuel bunker business some years ago, which was sold to a company called Stolt-Nielsen, on behalf of the owners from Norway. So I do have a little bit of understanding of the cost structure and the way the market works, and I find it absurd that the Minister is way up there in the stratosphere talking in this bill about, sort of\u2014not even quite principles, because it\u2019s not quite clear, when I look at new section 29D, inserted by clause 4, it is just a statement of intent, not even dealing with the issue of principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, first of all, if we\u2019re bringing fuel from now Singapore, which is the most likely place to bring fuel from now, the size of the ship will matter quite considerably. And when you get it here, you\u2019ve also then got the issue of how you transport it to, maybe where Mr Smith comes from in Blenheim\u2014whether you\u2019re going to use the local shipping fleet or whether you\u2019re going to ship it by trucks, and of course, both have quite different cost structures. So, even in the shipping side of the logistics chain, there are considerable differences, and I know that because we had to look at where we sourced the fuel from, and then how we shipped it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing is, actually, even around the logistics and the maintenance of bulk fuel tanks, whilst they do last for a long period of time, there are maintenance costs associated with them. Someone with an embedded advantage where they already have existing fuel tanks\u2014maybe being modernised, maybe not\u2014that will have a considerable bearing on the cost structure of the fuel container costs, so that\u2019s another driver. And also the driver for the bulk fuel container business is how often they\u2019re turning over stock, because, of course, the stock is a major part of that business. So all of those things\u2014you know, if you\u2019re from business, you understand these concepts around stock and the cost of holding stock. So, even if you\u2019ve got a new operation vs an old one, there will be considerable differences in terms of the maintenance costs and all of those associated things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThen you\u2019ve got a third overlay, which is that people act differently in different times in markets, and you will get some people who choose to put a discount on, because, at that period in time, they want to buy a market share for a reason that\u2014maybe they\u2019ve got really old stock that they want to get rid of and therefore they will mark down the price and it\u2019s perceived that they\u2019re driving down the price. So those happen from time to time, and it happens every day in business. So there are three identified clumps of costs, and for someone to divinely come up with an assertion that \u201CHey, this is out of order\u201D\u2014that one particular supplier\u2019s costs are so different that they are now going to be brought under this regime is a tall ask for the commission. I think, at best, the commission will be able to ascertain whether, in fact, the price of fuel that is acquired or purchased in Singapore\u2014whether we\u2019re paying differing amounts for volume and the price that that fuel is delivered to New Zealand\u2014but beyond that, that is a really difficult undertaking to be able to make on behalf of the commission, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m so disappointed reading this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t been part of the select committee, but I can understand why this is looking like just a bill to try and pass something to make us look good, but it provides no guidance; no instructions in terms of how the Commerce Commission will do its job, and certainly not for market participants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002289ec2945f9284e818f198da7ba691399\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289ec2945f9284e818f198da7ba691399\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just following on from my colleague Stuart Smith\u2019s comments\u2014Minister, I\u2019m really, really puzzled as to how a lack of competition in terminal gate pricing could possibly even be determined by the commission. When I look at the terminals shown here [Holds up an electronic tablet]\u2014and this is available for download; this is available online right now\u2014there is only one terminal in Northland, at Marsden Point; there is one in Auckland at Wiri; one in Napier, Nelson, Christchurch, Dunedin; two in Timaru, Wellington, and Tauranga. Most of the country, the major metros, have only one terminal\u2014how is it possible to determine whether the price posted at the gate doesn\u2019t reflect a competitive wholesale market? There\u2019s only one terminal\u2014I can\u2019t send my truck and trailers down the road to fill up at someone else\u2019s terminal. I can\u2019t drive past the terminal and compare it to the next one down the road to get a feel as if someone\u2019s paying too much. It just sounds completely impractical, Minister. It sounds like a response to the wrong problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, Minister, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s worthwhile, really, debating the merits of the bill, because, if there\u2019s a change of Government, the ACT Party will act to repeal it, because we\u2019re fundamentally opposed to the Government setting prices. But I do want to offer you an opportunity to comment on the Supplementary Order Paper on the amendment to the bill that ACT has proposed, that the terminal gate price [Refers to electronic tablet]\u2014and here we have an example of terminal gate pricing: premium 95 $2.32; regular 91 $2.09; diesel $1.59. That\u2019s at Marsden Point. What ACT is proposing\u2014in an amendment to clause 6 in Part 2 of the bill\u2014is that the terminal gate price must publicly list, as part of the overall price, the total excise duty and excise equivalent duty included in the price and cents per litre. That\u2019s the amount of fuel tax that people will pay on that product and the total amount likely to be paid at the current market price of New Zealand units under the emissions trading scheme. It\u2019s the total cost per litre that Kiwis will pay if they buy that fuel at a wholesale price on top of the wholesale price and the importers margin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, could you just firstly give your perspective: how are we to know whether competition is in fact insufficient when there is only one terminal in most of the metros? And secondly, Minister, will you support ACT\u2019s proposed amendment that terminal gate pricing should include excise duty, fuel tax, and the emissions trading scheme cost? Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022aebe8767512148fdafc6096741f96c30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aebe8767512148fdafc6096741f96c30\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a quick call to again address questions posed by Mr Court and Mr Smith around what is prescribed in new section 29C of the bill, inserted by clause 4, about when, and the test of when the terminal gate price may be regulated\u2014what is the trigger for that happening? One of the things that I do point members to is that this is actually a recommendation of our market study into fuel pricing to protect consumers. I\u2019m hearing a whole lot of arguments coming from that side of the Chamber about how we have to protect the oil companies and the fuel companies. What I\u2019ve really considered is how we ensure that consumers are getting a fair deal when they go to the pump. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo prices that are not consistent with what is expected in a competitive market are terminal gate prices that are higher than would be experienced if competition were causing downward pressure on those prices. Since we began monitoring\u2014and the Commerce Commission has the tools and the powers to begin monitoring this because of changes that we made\u2014what we\u2019ve seen is that early analysis indicates that terminal gate prices are being set higher than expected compared to average fixed wholesale contract prices and terminal gate prices in Australia. That\u2019s when you adjust for all the differences. So I think what we\u2019re seeing is that there needs to be vigilance, there needs to be the transparency around the pricing so it can be monitored, and if consumers are not getting a fair deal then there needs to be a way to deal with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI will also just answer Mr Court\u2019s questions around whether or not the Government will be supporting his Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 364. And I thank the member for taking the time to put the work in to put up an SOP, but we won\u2019t be supporting it on this occasion and there\u2019s some good reasons for that. The member is suggesting that we add into that the GST and the emissions trading scheme charging. This would not be meaningful in terms of the transparency. There are a number of other costs, if you were looking for full transparency, that you\u2019d want to put in there. Some members have alluded to some of these as the complexity, and I think Mr Bayly talked about this, and this is something of course that the Commerce Commission has the powers to take into account, which is the full context\u2014the operating costs of the terminal in its particular location. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe also have the capital costs and the way in which they can be fairly attributed in a working competitive market. These are all things that you would not be\u2014you would not be displaying all of this. You also wouldn\u2019t be putting in place the profit margins. So I\u2019m sorry, Mr Court, but the advice that I\u2019ve got is that although you could argue that there could be greater transparency by displaying all of these things, this would cause an increase in the regulatory burden on these businesses, and not something this Government is prepared to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022aedc11e4475f4f169572d0d8c8c81040\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aedc11e4475f4f169572d0d8c8c81040\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve been sitting here listening to some of the pertinent questions that my colleagues have actually asked the Minister. I\u2019m just a little bit baffled. In relation to new section 29C, it is about, \u201Cterminal gate prices only if it is satisfied that the relevant wholesale supplier has posted terminal gate prices, for the relevant specified engine fuel and bulk storage facility, that were above what would be expected in a competitive market.\u201D So it could potentially be one supplier out of the five major ones\u2014and there are a couple of others who actually do, in fact, supply\u2014and I\u2019d have thought that we wanted competitive pricing. If one goes over, doesn\u2019t the market actually fix that anyway? The wholesale market would actually decide that they\u2019re not going to purchase a very high-priced wholesaler. I thought the market actually fixes that problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWhy are we wasting time wanting to make an inquiry? The Minister potentially could actually, on 29D, have an inquiry triggered. I know that my colleagues have talked about the trigger and the measurement, but I just don\u2019t understand where this is actually going. I just thought if you leave it to the market, it\u2019d be sorted. It\u2019s not like we have two wholesalers, one who is going higher. Well, good luck to the one who\u2019s actually supplying it cheaper, because they\u2019ll get all of the customers. If one of them is actually selling it for a much, much more expensive price, that\u2019s called market pricing. So if the market pricing is not complied to and with, we\u2019re going to trigger an inquiry by the Commerce Commission or the Minister writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just trying to understand what the Minister\u2019s reasoning is for actually doing this, because I am still really, really baffled. It\u2019s sort of like saying, \u201COh well, if you own a house\u2014one in Christchurch and one in Auckland\u2014the same house but one of them actually happens to sell at a much more higher price, let\u2019s do an inquiry.\u201D Well, it is the market that determines the price. If someone actually decides to sell it for a much, much higher price, the customer base would decide not to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo I think it would be very, very pertinent if the Minister could actually tell us the answer in terms of how the Minister, on 29D, will decide\u2014(1)(a)\u2014where she says, \u201CThe Commission \u2026 must hold an inquiry if required to do so by the Minister in writing\u201D. I\u2019m trying to understand what will trigger the Minister to write to the commission, to do the inquiry, and what will be the reasoning behind it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002259e067c6218f4c5e9d3dd52de610f082\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259e067c6218f4c5e9d3dd52de610f082\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00223da9cb32121e42cbb8516698b8b5a4f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223da9cb32121e42cbb8516698b8b5a4f3\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Chair. We did not object when they moved to take the whole bill as one part, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226979f13031344b39a681b7c9eff8b43f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Smith, are you predicting what I was going to do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd486861637d4b72993ff5eb740d0950\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I wasn\u2019t. I was just going to say that in the spirit of an informed decision, we did that on the basis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b272f7f306594dd48b1aa8649fff5ea4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b272f7f306594dd48b1aa8649fff5ea4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Smith, I don\u2019t need any advice, thank you. I will say to Ms Lee that coming in late doesn\u2019t mean that a question hasn\u2019t already been asked, which it has. However, the time has come for me to report progress on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f750fb8f41d4adc81add46d2f7770e6\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bcd4d75693d44ca38283a71333a18cf1\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228df3485d02ed45c0866a7bc3abbe5d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228df3485d02ed45c0866a7bc3abbe5d08\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has further considered the Deposit Takers Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Fuel Industry Amendment Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f163906881cf4de398445086d471ed52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f163906881cf4de398445086d471ed52\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The Deposit Takers Bill is set down for third reading next sitting day, and the Fuel Industry Amendment Bill is set down for further consideration in committee next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow. P\u014D m\u0101rie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306279fa3fa892480483eb731a7b964980dc5000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.59 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"