"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002239b14f34c5d743c6af444de94c39c17d\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 JULY 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002257274e0fbdb84c75a00512c41a23b855\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 JULY 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a39b0a4ff315467cad8b81fc84113139\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022007409d6aae941ccb66360d296fe7ef6\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022440c4d250a064453880f50923258c884\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022440c4d250a064453880f50923258c884\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e45fb5a8069647f98436811f4d171c6e\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad0d0cdbb3344db08902f034eda5de2f\u0022\u003EPhilippines\u2014Senate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022365018a7a4db4c7b86eb06ea73ddea6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022365018a7a4db4c7b86eb06ea73ddea6a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would wish to welcome Senator Pia Cayetano from the Senate of the Philippines, and her accompanying delegation who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002253caa284306e48328adc8ccbd3c8bc74\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f29dacab199f420a8e9eda65264ceeb8\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaeef255dd1a446aa5de6604df8db26a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaeef255dd1a446aa5de6604df8db26a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022e181b8b1ec924107a7445512107ac07f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e181b8b1ec924107a7445512107ac07f\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Louise Duffy requesting that the House implement a national register for standardised medical advance directives and mandate that those directives are followed\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Ranjith De Silva requesting that the House urge the Government to encourage the Sri Lankan Government to hold the Local Government election without further postponement, and to stop violent attacks on peaceful protesters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022373535a1a69c456eafbace32df719724\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022373535a1a69c456eafbace32df719724\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions are referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00224e181da8e9624b6396bf4b362a22d830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e181da8e9624b6396bf4b362a22d830\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to the report of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the International Treaty Examination on the Framework Agreement on the establishment of the International Solar Alliance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s report on the Identity Verification Service information matching enabling provision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Eprotocol to the accession of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, together with the national interest analysis\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estatements of intent 2023-27:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECriminal Cases Review Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EEducation New Zealand, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EPrivacy Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estatements of performance expectations 2023-24:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECriminal Cases Review Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EEducation New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EEnvironmental Protection Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EPrivacy Commissioner, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ETourism New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b59d68e091d041b0a94fc378887c333c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b59d68e091d041b0a94fc378887c333c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the Register of Pecuniary and Other Specified Interests of Members of Parliament summary of amendments to annual returns, July 2023. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc4d2938870d484dbdb6707a20261093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc4d2938870d484dbdb6707a20261093\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Education and Workforce Committee on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Environment Committee on the 2023 Estimates for Vote Conservation and the 2023-24 Estimates for Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the 2023-24 Estimates for Vote Defence and Vote Defence Force\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the 2023-24 Estimates for Vote Attorney-General and Vote Parliamentary Counsel, for Vote Corrections, for Vote Courts, for Vote Justice, and for Vote Police, Vote Serious Fraud, and appropriations within Vote Business, Science and Innovation Retail Crime Subsidy Scheme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Barry Ramsay and the petition of Fiona Green\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Primary Production Committee on the 2023-24 Estimates for Vote Forestry, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the 2023-24 Estimates for Vote Women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1a15da54b9f430c830146705474528b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1a15da54b9f430c830146705474528b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225927d43a718d4814869dae861c660a0c\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227173b108b481477b877f43fd4887cde2\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022119514076b804a2288776f39e2e455f4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002235401a0e212f4b00b648d93b6368f35c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235401a0e212f4b00b648d93b6368f35c\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022dede04c46ff940f5b91c2b8b0174ebc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dede04c46ff940f5b91c2b8b0174ebc9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E This is a tough period for New Zealand and for the global economy. However, there are signs of the resilience of the New Zealand economy as we navigate a pathway through a difficult and uncertain environment. Stats NZ reported earlier this month that there was a net gain of 77,810 people arriving in the year to May. The number of arrivals stood at 181,100, the second-highest on record for an annual period since the March 2020 year. That more than offset the departures of 103,300. Of the 181,100 who arrived, 85 percent were non - New Zealand citizens. Our immigration reset is working, and it is attracting overseas workers with the skills that businesses require to rebuild the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a7e4eced6a744619164babc3b8ad3ff\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on tourism and its impact on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1987c24f6444f12b30fd642c425972b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Stats NZ also reported that overseas visitor arrivals were 160,300 in the month of May, up 87,600 from the same month a year earlier. That level was around 73 percent of the pre-COVID number in May 2019. On an annual basis, overseas visitor arrivals rose to 2.45\u00A0million. With the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup now under way, the tournament is providing a boost to the tourism and hospitality industries during July and August, which are traditionally quieter months for the sectors. We expect to welcome more than 25,500 international visitors to New Zealand for the games being held here, with two-thirds of visitors coming from the United States. In addition to this, FIFA is estimating that around 70,000 New Zealanders are traveling around the country to attend matches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242f6de0af96544c89b75aef3aed78e70\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226adf58d250e4164bb3571f29c19b2f0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Activity in the services sector expanded modestly in June, with the BNZ - BusinessNZ Performance of Services Index at 50.1\u2014a reading above 50 indicating that the sector is generally expanding, while below 50 that it is declining. Sales and new orders expanded slightly, though employment declined for the first time since December 2022. As I said in my earlier answer, this is a tough period for many New Zealanders, but our economy is resilient, and we are building for the long term to deliver higher-wage jobs while also lowering emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0db11d467fc4b7d95ce7d4b594fca22\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the export sector and its impact on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228017d3bb4ef84b1ba7c542dda7c6f925\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Stats NZ reported yesterday that exports rose 1.3 percent, to $6.3\u00A0billion in June, led by dairy products. On an annual basis, exports rose 8.2 percent, to $72.8\u00A0billion. Looking at New Zealand\u2019s key trading partners, exports rose by 11.3 percent annually to Australia, 11.7 percent to the US, and 2.9 percent to China. As I have said previously, 2023 is a difficult year for the global economy. However, there are reasons to be optimistic, including unemployment being at record lows, inflation heading in the right direction, and public debt levels well below those of the countries with which we compare ourselves. We will continue to carefully and responsibly prioritise our spending without unnecessarily adding to inflation, taking a balanced approach that gives New Zealanders choices and flexibility to respond through these testing times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225fb6dca1ca874f24ad3ae80ee7512334\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3e5f902ecef41e0aabff3f34d7603da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3e5f902ecef41e0aabff3f34d7603da\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00228c5bfab03a2946dca6ea4cd809ed5238\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c5bfab03a2946dca6ea4cd809ed5238\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the partnership with Fonterra to co-fund a range of projects to cut coal use at its dairy factories. This partnership will result in halving Fonterra\u2019s manufacturing emissions by 2030, equivalent to taking 120,000 cars off the road, and it will leverage up to $790 million worth of investment. This partnership sits within a backdrop of recent Stats New Zealand data showing New Zealand\u2019s emissions decreasing for a third successive year under this Government. I heard firsthand during my recent trade missions that New Zealand\u2019s climate credentials are crucial to our exports. This Government is committed to reaching our emissions reductions budgets, both for the sake of the environment but also because it benefits our exporters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff922a945cfb4353a5bd5c6b4c9a1a8d\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was Treasury right that inflation has pushed tens of thousands of Kiwis into higher tax brackets over the last six years, and, if so, will he adjust tax brackets for inflation to let Kiwis keep more of what they earn?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022287287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b66d8c524194e8a9547475a0f1884d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, in answer to the first part of the question. I\u2019ve been very clear that I don\u2019t think now is the right time for tax cuts in this\u2014the magnitude of tax cuts proposed by the National Party would ultimately result in higher inflation for longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034d4a9f2a65458aa6c919fb89f6c103\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it a vote of no confidence in his tax policies that his Minister of Revenue was so disillusioned he resigned his portfolio instead of just serving until the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d50204555c894ccf82511819f5c2d56b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I imagine that the members opposite are feeling somewhat disillusioned by their party\u2019s tax policy, given they don\u2019t seem to be able to come up with a coherent one. The member himself has promised billions of dollars\u2019 worth of tax cuts that his finance spokesperson doesn\u2019t seem to know how he\u2019s going to pay for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022139a4c9d744e4a869728afb003a7219d\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he say, yesterday, that David Parker was passing on the revenue portfolio to \u201C[free] him up to focus on [the] transport [role]\u201D, when David Parker said, today, that the real reason he quit was disagreement over tax policy making his position \u201Cuntenable\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e399065967c146a3bb9319def1622ba0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I know full well from the conversations I\u2019ve had with him that David Parker is enjoying the transport portfolio, is going to get his teeth into that, and I\u2019m looking forward to working with him on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5934f6c2c9a4a4abb7a76bd97486dc3\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was David Parker right to say that his position as revenue Minister was \u201Cuntenable\u201D due to his Government\u2019s disagreement over tax policy, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225568f4808ef748648a0c7fd466df3b31\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: David Parker indicated that he wanted to move on from the revenue portfolio. I was doing a reshuffle and I indicated I was happy to accommodate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d6dba0d2e44220a0c73f1ac99dda80\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, despite the rules on collective Cabinet responsibility, has a Minister who has publicly defied the Prime Minister on tax policy retained his position in his Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adaefa754e2846109f20749da193f9c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I reject that that\u2019s what David Parker has done. From time to time, Ministers put proposals before Cabinet that the Cabinet does not agree with and that do not proceed. Ministers do need to be able to explain that. I don\u2019t believe that David Parker has done anything other than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a21555443349d299c59e65a86dc9d8\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is the real reason he keeps delaying his tax policy plan because he can\u2019t even convince his own Cabinet colleagues to get it over the line, let alone the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b98aa663f6bb4ae39590145556f20583\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That might have more credibility if the National Party had come up with a tax plan that was credible and consistent. But given, even in the last year, they\u2019ve had multiple variations of their tax plan and they\u2019re not actually even in the Government yet\u2014and probably unlikely to be, given they can\u2019t come up with a tax plan that balances out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227081d6f7be9549ce8d34834d35f2be20\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Prime Minister\u2019s best explanation for losing four Ministers overboard in just seven months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c824d8856f045c58abdbd8915e5459c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Each and every one of those cases is different, and there are extenuating circumstances. Particularly in the most recent case, I would expect the member to show a little more sensitivity than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a60016a66b1b4c37a675ec9ed1f17c97\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How can Kiwis trust a Prime Minister who didn\u2019t know a Minister was leaking Cabinet information to donors, didn\u2019t know a Minister was defecting to Te Paati M\u0101ori, didn\u2019t know a Minister had a major shareholding conflict of interest, and didn\u2019t know\u2014or at least didn\u2019t do enough for a Minister who was facing serious challenges?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222820aae9ecfb40208987d12ed0634610\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that New Zealanders can trust me more than the party of privilege, as defined by the party\u2019s founder, Roger Douglas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269d7fb02fe174b5bb9b11bd65aa43f4a\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that he\u2019s asked the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet to do a review in light of last week\u2019s shooting in Auckland, and will that review consider whether the law makes it too easy for criminals, some of whom have committed violent offences, to get a sentence of home detention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f29a6d2e5905427387834e85e6f4834e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member has mischaracterised the statement that I made. What I indicated was that I had asked for advice from the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet on what reviews would be done into an event such as this and whether any additional review would be appropriate in the circumstances. There are a number of reviews under way at the moment. There is, of course, the fact that there is a police investigation still active. There is a police critical incident investigation. The Chief Probation Officer is conducting a review into Corrections\u2019 management of the offender, the potential for a coronial hearing. At this point, I don\u2019t think an additional review is required, but there may well be additional findings out of those other reviews that I just mentioned that the Government will need to give due consideration to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022213fdb4f5dcf48678a46a3c7dd2e7cf2\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t the Prime Minister want to know how it\u2019s possible and whether it\u2019s acceptable that people on home detention carry out around 1,500 offences they\u2019re charged for every year, including 143 acts intending to cause injury last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d15f98239d7d48abb68686aaad4e1d35\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t believe that that offending is appropriate. Of course those are issues of concern. The number of people on home detention under this Government has stayed relatively static to what it was under the last National Government. There has not been an increase in the use of home detention. Those numbers have been relatively static. We are concerned about that sort of offending. I\u2019m very concerned that the offender managed to get hold of a firearm, for example. It is one of the reasons why this Government is absolutely committed to implementing the firearms register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b71a4616b34a6bb2ae2ceee2a48904\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister explain to the House and the public why someone who broke the law by supplying a firearm to a person on home detention without a licence would have registered their firearm?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d34ed06f93e14a9e8db30b536bde2c4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: One of the things that the firearms register will do is it will allow police more ability to keep track of where firearms are ending up. I believe that creating the firearms register is the right thing to do. I think the member and, potentially, the Opposition should clarify what their position is as to whether the firearms register will go ahead if there is a change of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224650ce6d8de6420f8b9cd4e92c203f56\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Prime Minister going to change in his leadership after his first seven months to persuade New Zealanders that a Government that hitherto cannot manage itself is really capable of fixing the problems of inflation, lawlessness, and division that rive New Zealand under his leadership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8a5f82555f34c01bc653d3d913de382\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I will be campaigning on the platform that this Government wants to support New Zealanders who worked hard to get ahead so they can create a better life for themselves and their families, and I endorse the sentiments of Roger Douglas that the ACT Party is the party of privilege.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f5f4c2d50941d2badb81eae9358c16\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Aren\u2019t his Cabinet Ministers right to be disillusioned when he spent six months stringing them along on the wealth tax only to nix it at the last minute in a desperate attempt to keep his failing Government re-elected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c881cfc4726143f9b63aff1d98ed6c0b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I utterly reject that. We will be announcing our tax policy shortly, and I can say to the member that we\u2019ll have no difficulty making our numbers add up. It\u2019s no wonder the member can\u2019t announce his policy, because (a), he doesn\u2019t have a consistent one, and (b), his finance spokesperson\u2019s got no idea how he\u2019s going to pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ca6f606ad0d40e6b5632f8352e0eb5b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Energy and Resources\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022125d5a6f0d9b4b9aa1cbfd574d1a05de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022125d5a6f0d9b4b9aa1cbfd574d1a05de\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: What action is the Government taking to decarbonise New Zealand\u2019s energy sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002211f000c61e8c4649b0fb35abec88f2f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211f000c61e8c4649b0fb35abec88f2f0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, we announced that the Government is partnering with Fonterra to cut their coal use in half for manufacturing emissions at sites across the country. This partnership will result in earlier emissions reductions of around 2.1\u00A0million tonnes by 2035 and will result in annual reductions of up to 328,000 tonnes of carbon. That\u2019s the same as removing 120,000 cars off the road. The deal demonstrates how the transition to a low-emission economy is not only good for the climate but also a win for our major export industries by producing low-carbon goods and improving New Zealand\u2019s economic resilience\u2014a longed-for win New Zealand workers by futureproofing our economy and jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dd84927fa8e4dd0b4e5f74ff234d4ee\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s partnership with Fonterra help New Zealand meet its emissions reductions targets? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277638f31041143e087a8584fedc4c976\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Our partnership with Fonterra will drag the emissions reductions forward into earlier emissions budgets, meaning we invest in New Zealand\u2019s decarbonisation transition rather than buying expensive foreign carbon credits to offset their emissions. The agreement will deliver 1.2 million tonnes of the emissions reductions required in New Zealand\u2019s second emission budget and 830 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions in budget 3. This also makes up around 7 percent of the energy and industry sector sub-target in emissions budget 2, and 4 percent in emissions budget 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db2324c1950043db9c77c8f276427323\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Where does the money come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fec8832252db4938b71ce9781a1f3699\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I challenge Mr Luxon to ask me a question rather than chipping in, and maybe he could explain what National will do instead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221361c4cbe8c3476a9036fc3c1f373aa2\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government partnering with Fonterra to reduce their coal use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7db9fea8ae4c58826e036a74993b7c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The independent Climate Change Commission has been clear: the emissions trading scheme (ETS) alone is not sufficient for New Zealand to meet its climate goals, with the ETS needing to be significantly higher than it is today to justify fully funding projects. Some large industrial users have said that without complementary measures like Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry, the ETS would have to be up to $200 per tonne for these vital decarbonisation projects to stack up for their businesses. This would massively impact the economy, including driving up New Zealand\u2019s energy costs. For example, this would add more than 40c per litre to the cost of petrol; if that\u2019s what the National Party are suggesting, I suggest they release the policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d9cdbce82249be94c784014578c021\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What other benefits will be delivered through the Government\u2019s partnership with Fonterra?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0ec267d9e6e4a3b875e40c31ddf562d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: As the Prime Minister said last week, by partnering with Fonterra to reduce emissions, we\u2019re helping to maintain New Zealand dairy\u2019s competitive edge as international consumers and food manufacturers demand further climate commitments. I\u2019ve heard firsthand the importance of New Zealand\u2019s climate credentials to our exports. This partnership is an investment in our future economic prosperity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc3a97b46b124a7bad038b50425c9d7e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c720058f3d8946e28d050f356e5ccf46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c720058f3d8946e28d050f356e5ccf46\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with tax advice provided to him by the Treasury that \u201Cfiscal drag has had the greatest impact on average full time wage earners. However, it is increasingly impacting lower income individuals over time\u201D, and will the Government adjust tax thresholds to address this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0355a19e0b4473ba6f76ae75c8630f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0355a19e0b4473ba6f76ae75c8630f8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, yes; as the member and I have discussed on a number of occasions, fiscal drag does have an impact on New Zealanders across the board. This is an issue that all Governments have faced, and as I have stated previously, adjusting tax thresholds is something that all Governments will need to consider over time. However, there are trade-offs involved in doing so, and in deciding that fiscal space should go towards changes to tax thresholds, that means deciding not to invest in other areas like critical public services such as education, health, and housing. In answer to the second part of the question, the Government has indicated its tax policies at the Budget, and this was not part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022470d05bf67e7403fa30a9d9d62ed15e5\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned by advice he received in February that fiscal drag is likely to be most acute for those currently earning near the $48,000 threshold, which includes full-time earners on the minimum wage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022964588c1d54548b6a6aced2591ff3c98\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of the advice that I was given, and all Governments\u2014all political parties\u2014have to work out how they balance together providing support to people, for example, earning around that $48,000 level. I do note that the member\u2019s party\u2019s policy would see those people getting $2 a week, and the tradeoff for that would be significant cuts in health, education, and housing, and services they rely on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6f23d7442f4b639543c71aad52d83d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that the average wage is currently above the $70,000 tax threshold, so, according to his own advisers, is taxed at a marginal rate of 33 percent, whereas in 2010 it was just above the $48,000 threshold, taxed at a much lower rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256737ac941074912a0a47bcdc6131cfe\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in answer to the first part of the question, no, because I want New Zealanders to earn higher wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022845e7ead07d648559df60feb92c85a6c\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does he agree with the advice he has received that having a higher proportion of earners with higher marginal tax rates may be expected to lead to lower incentives to work and save over time as the returns on these activities are reduced? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228acaabb7c7bc4c74beee7182e3dd7e98\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We are clear that we want to see New Zealanders\u2019 wages rise. That is the thing that will continue to provide incentives for them to keep working harder and to be part of a more productive economy. What the member needs to be able to answer to New Zealanders is how does this all balance up, because offering tax cuts in the environment that we are in now means they have to be paid for from somewhere, and that, in the case of the National Party, would have to be cuts to services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c8a323b65f24733b449f365c70a0bba\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister any reports on what would be the impact of an increase in GST after the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cec025dcb3884cbda7addc82096bcb20\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: An increase in GST obviously would need to be communicated by a political party, and there is a track record of a party in this House that raised GST and didn\u2019t communicate that. The impact would be significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c96ae5f9886a4f9f9025f6032c80c05f\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that the size of the core Public Service is 28 percent larger than when he first became the Minister of Finance, and, if so, can he point to an actual outcome such as kids learning more, or safer streets, or more operations that have resulted from all these extra people he\u2019s hired?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022433a595e027844138fa5789c3fe4747d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That doesn\u2019t really relate to the primary, but if you want to answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275f41402f0a64af3b4acd8ced01dedef\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I was going to say that the question has been put to the Prime Minister last week and was answered for the member. The question around the growth of the Public Service should be put to the Public Service Minister, but what I can say is that I\u2019m extremely proud, over the last few years, of the way that the Public Service has stepped up to support New Zealanders through the global pandemic; the work that they did saved tens of thousands of lives and thousands of businesses. That is a demonstrable result I am proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d2e1dad771a4d3184b16decc064d9a5\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it in fact the case that the Minister is ignoring the advice about the overwhelming case for income tax reduction for working people because he continues to believe that he and his merry band of Ministers can spend New Zealanders\u2019 money better than they can, despite the clear evidence that they have been wasteful and have not delivered outcomes for that spending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db552e9ffb764f07974b38a6a4a47178\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. The reason why we believe that now is not the right time for tax cuts is because we are in very uncertain and volatile times and because we think New Zealanders deserve to have quality health and education services. Over the course of the last five years, we have been rebuilding from the underfunding of those services by a Government that prioritised tax cuts over investing in them. New Zealanders deserve quality public services. We are delivering them. They are at risk under a National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275ee9c6c63ae422586991e4f73b851e0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister of Finance aware that the pandemic is, for all intents and purposes, over; and, if so, will he commit to returning the size of the Public Service to pre-pandemic levels, and when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022225e232be6764dce9a0c00cadbef0537\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As in terms of my responsibilities, as indicated to the member on a number of occasions, we are on a track to reduce Government spending as a percentage of GDP back towards the long-run average. If we clicked our fingers and did that right away, as I would acknowledge the member has at least put out a plan to do, it would cause significant damage to the New Zealand economy and to New Zealand society. At the moment, that is the economic plan of a potential alternative Government\u2014because it\u2019s the only one that\u2019s out there\u2014and it\u2019s massively damaging and risky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3d64845fa7441519798399633120c5e\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: What conversations, if any, has he had with the Associate Minister of Finance delegated responsibility for assistance on tax policy, one David Parker, and has that to date included any discussions about their mutual disappointment they can\u2019t go on a wealth tax tax grab?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca4bdb3cce34156b6fece5bdb000630\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have many conversations with Mr Parker and usually in the middle of them the words \u201CTory\u201D and \u201Cputting the country at risk\u201D and \u201Ctearing up the social contract\u201D\u2014they tend to be the things that feature in those conversations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226b9bcc5d074471d8cf19f50bab18dbe\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Do those conversations also feature discussions about their mutual disappointment that the Prime Minister kiboshed their plans for a wealth tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44b70b8b7504f73aba2c9df6bb4119d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated, I\u2019m more than happy to go through some of the other topics that Minister Parker and I discuss from time to time, but mostly they focus on the importance of continuing the excellent work of this Government to lift children out of poverty, to build more State houses, to make sure that our economy continues to grow sustainably, and to make sure that we get on with reforming the Resource Management Act\u2014one of Mr Parker\u2019s other portfolios\u2014which the Opposition singularly failed to do across nine years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002285c89c05b0b3402aa0954cdd23ea7f12\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022126f0f97979f4736b8339739bf3d22a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022126f0f97979f4736b8339739bf3d22a9\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What was the total cost of cultural reports funded by the Ministry of Justice in October 2017, and what was the total cost of cultural reports funded by the Ministry of Justice in May 2023?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00224aa6fa653050480ea45c4a46bad43296\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224aa6fa653050480ea45c4a46bad43296\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Section 27 of the Sentencing Act 2002 allows an offender the right to request a report on their personal, family, and even community circumstances, and how it may have related to their offending. This could possibly include family history and mental health, for example. This Government has not made any changes to section 27 of the Sentencing Act. As released in written question No. 19765, I am advised that in October 2017, the cost of section 27 reports funded by the Ministry of Justice was $1,530; and that in May 2023, the total cost of section 27 reports funded by the Ministry of Justice was $806,022.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203213f50db7e4386bf3b7a7ef73a12cf\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that in the year to 30 June 2023, the average amount spent on cultural reports was over $630,000 a month, compared to an average of $3,333 a month in the year to 30 June 2018; and does she think this is a good use of taxpayer money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d35b79fd0374896b1fb8734988f0869\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: As stated before, this Government has not made any changes to section 27 of the Sentencing Act. It is true that section 27 reports are being more frequently used by the defence, as the legal profession\u2019s awareness of them grows. Given the increased use, I\u2019m expecting, and have requested, further advice in the coming weeks to understand whether changes to the system may well be needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66be21547df4978a26058aa9fca2fad\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Will she adopted ACT\u2019s policy to repeal section 27 of the Sentencing Act 2002, which allows criminals to get shorter sentences by requesting cultural background reports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc6c485a238495492e66f1bed09d438\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022318cfde42bf24a9f9e0a3d0bdb173eea\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to the victim of Stevie Taunoa, who was pregnant at the time that she was sexually assaulted in her home and continued to receive threats from her offender following the assault, and who watched as the judge presiding over his case noted his lack of cultural identity before sentencing him to 12 months\u2019 home detention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5d054cacb414d6daaab07d47bbe6771\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is a completely unacceptable circumstance for any person to be subjected to. As I\u2019ve already stated to the member, I\u2019m keen to get a fuller understanding of whether the use of section 27 reports remains fit for purpose, and I am not ruling out further changes at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f299e81c4ea46ccbffdba686e03a121\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Why should the victims of crime have any confidence in her ability to defend their rights when she suggests that offenders are like victims, by saying, \u201CIt\u2019s a sad indictment on our justice system that the best way to help te iwi M\u0101ori is to keep them out of our justice system,\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a5b6b1ea23f40429d11018257bf002c\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of our focus on victims of crime, I am proud of our track record on supporting victims. Since National left office, our Government has tripled the funding for the Victims Assistance Scheme, and doubled the funding to Victim Support. We passed the Sexual Violence Legislation Act, established Te Aorerekura, and will introduce a bill to give greater protections and rights to victims of family and sexual violence. And we\u2019re establishing three new pilots in the courts to improve victim safety, to ensure they\u2019re heard at bail decisions, and to strengthen the support for child victims of sexual violence. My focus is a justice system where victims feel safe, heard, and empowered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228758d9ab152d4eed80202f2db7f3e303\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfad1037c48b425e8e96089639612171\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfad1037c48b425e8e96089639612171\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: What recent announcement has she made about New Zealand\u2019s ongoing response to Russia\u2019s assault on Ukraine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022b707d8ebe7644f14aac4f0fa01368872\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b707d8ebe7644f14aac4f0fa01368872\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the question. In response to Russia\u2019s illegal and unjustified invasion of Ukraine, I\u2019ve recently announced a new tranche of 23 sanctions. These are an extension of our ongoing commitment to stand with Ukraine and to condemn the actions of those contributing to this ongoing crisis. Specifically, these sanctions are aimed at Russia\u2019s military industrial complex, the paramilitary group, and individuals who have played a part in unlawfully transporting and deporting Ukrainian children to Russia. These sanctions will also impact a number of Belarusian financial institutions due to their escalating support of Russia\u2019s war in Ukraine. This represents our staunch stand against the abhorrent actions we are witnessing. Since the passing of the Russia Sanctions Act in March 2022, New Zealand has adopted more than 20 rounds of sanctions targeting over 1,500 individuals and entities. We remain committed to aligning our actions with international sanctions efforts in response to Russia\u2019s aggression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce18dc8f111a46d5957ce17aad96f483\u0022\u003EDan Rosewarne\u003C/span\u003E: How does she plan to address the actions of Russia concerning the deportation of Ukrainian children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e6b9e810db4a5e864f0662540df42f\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand categorically condemns the acts of unlawfully separating children from their families. This is a gross violation of human rights and a clear breach of international law. We have specifically included three individuals involved in these heinous actions in our recent sanctions. We are sending a strong message to Russia and the world that such actions are intolerable and will be met with decisive measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a08c0761c6ad4bf6ba357e2e60adb4ae\u0022\u003EDan Rosewarne\u003C/span\u003E: What is the purpose of these sanctions on Russia\u2019s military industrial complex and Belarusian financial institutions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a11965100646a78f1436df622397ad\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The sanctions aimed at Russia\u2019s military industrial complex and Belarusian financial institutions are designed to disrupt their operations and reduce their ability to support military activities. Fourteen of these sanctions target individuals and entities of the Russian military industrial complex involved in the development, manufacture, and procurement of weapons and technology used against Ukraine. We expect these sanctions to have a significant impact and limit their capacity to continue their aggression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c1884c53145464cbae121eb2da0603c\u0022\u003EDan Rosewarne\u003C/span\u003E: What is New Zealand\u2019s response to Russian nuclear weapons stationed in Belarus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201e83e2ad4be4d41b8abce78b22684f3\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand remains deeply concerned about Belarus hosting Russian tactical nuclear weapons on their territory. New Zealand has always been a strong advocate for nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation, and any development that means nuclear weapons are sited in more countries is negative. We call on Russia to reverse this course of action, and on Belarus not to host nuclear weapons now or in the future. It represents a direct threat\u2014not only to Ukraine but also to its neighbouring allies\u2014and destabilises the region further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022137bfbbcbc004e098bb9b8e1a6d8521e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002288a290edb931432abf29ce4feb8dcb14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288a290edb931432abf29ce4feb8dcb14\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CDental care is something that can be put off due to affordability difficulties, especially for low-income households. We know that issues with dental health have a negative impact on people\u2019s general health, financial health, ability to work, and quality of life\u201D; if so, does she have confidence people unable to afford dental care can access dental grants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b65b8635f2f24d1d9cc829ebbe669c24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b65b8635f2f24d1d9cc829ebbe669c24\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for ACC)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Yes, and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e7e3e80cf54068b06c93ac537d27e0\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think Ministry of Social Development (MSD) dental grants are meeting the level of unmet need for dental care amongst low-income households; and if so, why are 40 percent of adults and 50 percent of M\u0101ori still unable to afford dental care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4222893235946608ee51bd852580dc8\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re proud of the work that we\u2019ve done in this space. In fact, lifting the cap from $300 to $1,000 in the Budget of 2022 has seen a significant uptake of that particular service so that people can receive dental services. What I note, too, is the criteria that it wasn\u2019t only to be for emergency dental but also to allow people to access what would be considered normal dental appointments for fillings or for check-ups to make sure that they don\u2019t fall into the emergency dental criteria. We know that there\u2019s more work to do, but we\u2019ve done a heck of a lot of work to make sure that we can support those who are currently low-income households to access dental services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231cc356effed49e49132343dadee2dcc\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Are enough beneficiaries in low-income households able to access dental grants when emergency department staff have reported still regularly seeing patients who have attempted DIY extractions with a screwdriver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb0c55e9bfae471b9054980ee5c21990\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Of course we don\u2019t want to see DIY on dental work in households. What we want to do is make sure that we have the right settings to allow people to access that, and we\u2019re confident that we have by lifting the cap and, of course, changing the criteria to make sure that those who do need it can access that support through MSD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022281f430c57134a87b6532501d34fca9f\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister support people having to get into debt to access expensive dental treatment, which then impacts their ability to meet weekly costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e5ca3bf5c641cbb6664a9cba8f6994\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why we lifted the cap from $300 to $1,000\u2014to make sure that people don\u2019t fall into the emergency dental trap. We can ensure that they access services to get their kinds of appointments to make sure that they have regular oral health checks, to make sure their teeth get the treatment that they need. We know that there\u2019s more to do, but I am confident that by lifting the cap as well as changing the accessibility settings, more people are accessing these services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022670b699dd12349b68e27ea011482cf75\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that only allowing low-income adults to access dental grants where they have an \u201Cimmediate or essential need\u201D\u2014such as when they\u2019re in pain or when their teeth are decayed\u2014rather than for cleaning, check-ups, and other, broader prevention work is leading to good oral health outcomes for families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbc134ebbaee49c6b424371405784d4a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve already explained that we\u2019ve already changed the criteria to make this system a lot more flexible so that it isn\u2019t just for the emergency dental grant: it\u2019s to make sure that there\u2019s better oral health by ensuring that people can book appointments, have regular check-ups, even get a filling; and that it\u2019s not just a one-off\u2014it is a cap of $1,000; you can visit a dentist on multiple occasions to that cap of $1,000. We\u2019re proud of the work that we\u2019ve done in this space. We know that there\u2019s more we need to do to support low-income families, and we\u2019ve done that across multiple portfolios as a Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022077d0cab73584f1ea2253a4530425392\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00222097133ddb5c4db5b1beca7be8565f54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222097133ddb5c4db5b1beca7be8565f54\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent progress have Police made on tackling organised crime? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1b1896e44cf4b0e8255a97984c107dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1b1896e44cf4b0e8255a97984c107dc\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I was incredibly proud to announce last week that Operation Cobalt, Police\u2019s focus work to disrupt gangs and organised crime, has reached a significant new milestone. As of 6 July 2023, police have entered 43,460 charges and have issued a further 55,988 traffic-related infringement offence notices. These charges are supported by 1,235 search warrants conducted and 731 warrantless searches as part of Operation Cobalt. Police have also seized 449 firearms as part of this operation, which builds on the 1,804 firearms seized as part of Operation Tauwhiro. These charges demonstrate Police\u2019s absolute commitment to tackling organised crime and that this Government is backing police to keep our communities safe and to hold offenders to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285c7981f872748ff9ebd9aad91582e24\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, are you aware of any recent actions taken by police in the past 24 hours? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c62e2727c484fe89d0c8a582df7b594\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: This work never stops. In just the past 24 hours, police arrested a patched member of the Head Hunters gang who was observed travelling through the Manukau area. With assistance from the armed offenders squad, an armed vehicle stop was made that revealed a large quantity of methamphetamine, and a further search of the address the offender came from revealed a firearm, which was loaded; ammunition; and a large quantity of cash. The offender has been arrested and charged with possession and further supply of methamphetamine, and police are not ruling out further charges being laid. This is just one more concrete example of the incredible work that our police are doing to tackle organised crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e7d3004e26e43d79d39ca0ad5ace793\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she seen on the success of Operation Cobalt? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d99a9728debf49f28bbf9a448fd85d44\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: The successes of Operation Cobalt are known well beyond the confines of this House. Operation Cobalt national controller Detective Superintendent Uraia Vakaruru recently spoke with One News and made it clear that Mongrel Mob, Barbarians, Mangu Kaha, Black Power, Mongols, Greasy Dogs, Comancheros, and Hells Angels members have all been caught in the crackdown, and a recent story in the Police Association magazine highlighted the success of Operation Cobalt, explaining that up to 200 staff were working on the operation over the 12 different police districts, alongside non-traditional groups such as road policing as well. With nearly 700 new police working on organised crime and a spate of new, useful legislation, it\u2019s clear we\u2019re empowering police to get on with the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ac272a54faf4827893160530916b90d\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: How has new legislation assisted police in tackling organised crime? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022353f3882c92a4ddcaea651981308a446\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Just this month, a front-line constable in Counties Manukau invoked the first ever use of the new provisions in the Search and Surveillance Act. This new power enabled the officer to seize nearly $24,000 in cash in suspicious circumstances from a gang member who was in breach of bail. The officer was not satisfied with the explanations given and had reasonable grounds to suspect the cash was not lawful. The District Court agreed and granted an order to retain the cash for 28 days, pending further inquiries. This follows previous successes of the use of the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Act 2023 in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki during gang conflict, and it demonstrated we\u2019re making sure police have the rules and the tools to get the job done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de2773bac6a7436bae392719ab1bdefd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u002265c6579474384ecb8e03d973e5f0c7af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265c6579474384ecb8e03d973e5f0c7af\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How many times has her office requested officials delay the release of information, as she described in the correction to her response to oral question No. 8 last Wednesday, and when did she first receive any communication suggesting the answers she gave to question No. 8 were not accurate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee0da52e559241c986239851312a0b90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee0da52e559241c986239851312a0b90\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, my staff member did not request the delay to the release of the information; my staffer asked the publication not to occur in the week of 5 July. In early June, officials advised me that the due date for the release was to be 30 June. Towards the end of June, officials asked for an extension of time because they could not meet the due date of 30\u00A0June. When advised it would be 5 July, my staff member asked for it not to be that week. To the second part of the question, as I already said last week in this House, at approximately 4.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a97ccc447184209aa4d75eba86a66d9\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Was one of the reasons the report was delayed because of observations that reporting of the performance data was \u201Cpoorly thought out, badly executed and provided \u2026 little [information] \u2026 to the public anyway.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263c2ff880a1d4c93b67ef4bf3771df07\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: No. As we canvassed in the House on Thursday last week, it was because of the busy week of that week for which the release was\u2014busy week that that office had in the week that the release was proposed for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa42be7cb5d24d559559b78b78823504\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Did other people in her office have knowledge of the request to delay the data release beyond the person she says contacted her at 4.30 p.m.; and, if so, how many people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c804edf7aaa42e98f63cbd2e5eabbc2\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: That relates to the delay in which that question was asked, and the response was corrected in the House. Other political staff in my office would have known about the reply\u2014about the correction\u2014as we prepared to make it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be958ae847d44ecba1a0a12b0d5f6729\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Has she or her office also worked on delaying the release of the Ernst \u0026amp; Young review into the M\u0101ori Health Authority that she received over two months ago, on 5 May?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022decfb6c566c34349b090773001e01be8\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: No. That report, as I have mentioned multiple times, is under consideration. It will be released shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eed24bca6174bd1bf857b6af7ae20d6\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Can she give an assurance that all health performance measures will be regularly and accurately reported as we move towards an election campaign?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228599b274451d4653b6f5a174de36873a\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. And that is why Te Whatu Ora went to such great lengths to make sure that their review into the issues that led to incorrect data being reported went into such detail and depth. It is a very good report, and I hope the member is reassured there is a better platform for the provision of health data now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d65dad359994441198beff41389fcb01\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc978d8294704711849fb4840a923b0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc978d8294704711849fb4840a923b0a\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002286081f044b9843efbb71d011d030f64e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286081f044b9843efbb71d011d030f64e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297fb117db54f4f3493829435a9e97dbc\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the comment of the Minister Responsible for the GCSB, who has said that \u201Cthe white supremacist threat in this country began to get serious attention only since mid-2018\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224957b082f38455fb107a7cfbf7ec2ee\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen that particular comment by the Minister, but I have no reason to disagree with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ee0987cba4433495cf6d452df6fa49\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Government done since then, if anything, to ensure that responding to the rising threat of white supremacy and anti-M\u0101ori hate is a priority for intelligence services and the police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7688acf82f04f628582b38243f004b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member will see that we\u2019ll shortly be releasing national security and intelligence priorities. That will set out some of the work that we have done and some of the work that we are prioritising ahead. That includes targeting those who seek to radicalise anybody for a variety of different reasons. It will also seek to combat mis- and disinformation, which, of course, we know is used in some of the techniques used by groups such as white supremacists. So it will set out quite a comprehensive strategy in those areas, but it will also canvas the things that we have done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224216b59a719b4f16b224546407dcf25a\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What concerns does he have, if any, that the recent anti - co-governance tour is contributing to a rise in racist rhetoric and violence against tangata whenua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b21a08bc18041d69bf7f85ef3039f55\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I strongly disagree with some of the sentiment that has been expressed during that particular tour. I do believe it\u2019s important that we always balance the right to free speech here. People are entitled to have controversial, unpopular opinions, and ones that I strongly disagree with. I happen to strongly disagree with some of the things that have been expressed by the group of people who are running that tour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c260ab900cb04a278833a4f23d23aea3\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that the social theory tactics creating moral panic and fear among many here in Aotearoa are being used by other political parties in this House\u2014using words like \u201Csubhuman\u201D, a word used by the Nazis, a white supremacist group, when describing the Jews; \u201Capartheid\u201D, a white supremacist tool used against black African peoples; and \u201Cseparatism\u201D, \u201Csegregation\u201D, and Jim Crow laws a white supremacist tool used against African Americans\u2014is fuelling white supremacist anti-M\u0101ori tours disguised as anti - co-governance tours plaguing this country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c5f7cdeb29472fabefd7491b96d915\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think any human beings should be described as \u201Csubhuman\u201D. I think those sorts of expressions are reprehensible. I do regret that some phrases are now more commonly used, including the phrase \u201Capartheid\u201D, completely out of context and with an apparent lack of understanding for what apartheid actually involves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227a4ba1649ba4657a8d50c326d1c3223\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that it is the role of the police to protect only one side of a political debate and allow white supremacists to assault tangata whenua and tangata Tiriti engaging in peaceful protest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c97c33835b2446fab141e368c0fc5576\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I believe it is the role of police to ensure that the right to free speech is protected, that the right to peaceful assembly and peaceful protest is also respected, and that the right for people to hold uncontroversial opinions and express those is also protected. That needs to be done equally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221db25bb832d54b8681dd9b14a5f95421\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Oceans and Fisheries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002210c34aa21fe34538bb76f8df3b55cfbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210c34aa21fe34538bb76f8df3b55cfbb\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries: What recent announcement has she made regarding a new food industry for New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e633c93166814ccba6033d4f02f8a766\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e633c93166814ccba6033d4f02f8a766\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E On a recent visit to Nelson, I was pleased to announce $750,000 to help scientists and businesses look at which strains of microalgae might be suitable for including in foods like protein bars and shakes. Microalgae include single-celled organisms such as diatoms and dinoflagellates. They have caught the attention of scientists around the world for their extraordinary properties and potential to create an abundant, high-quality natural protein source using only a fraction of the water, land, and time of other types of farming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245035e4a5d2045c09d79c04f3803b256\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: How will the funding announced by the Minister assist in development of this new industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222114fb00e13d48d8825e1288e2231187\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: This funding is going towards a $1.5 million project with the Cawthron Institute, marine engineering company Kernohan Engineering, and biotechnology nutrition start-up NewFish. The project will see around 100 strains of microalgae from Cawthron\u2019s globally significant culture collection investigated for nutritional properties and ease of production that could open up new, sustainable protein industries across Aotearoa New Zealand. NewFish will work with Kernohan Engineering to take the best microalgae strains and grow them at a commercial scale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c19d710465924a7a98fefd9b24a06e79\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this such an exciting announcement as a potential development for our food industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247e73f6ea0ab43ed9da0d85e4533a758\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: What is so great about this project is that it brings together science, food innovation, and engineering to develop future food solutions. This collaborative approach can help provide nutritional and accessible food for everyone. Global food demand is expected to increase by 60 percent by 2050, and food security is threatened by issues like climate change, geopolitics, and pests and diseases. The most exciting part of this announcement is that it is a low-carbon protein, which can be grown sustainably in bioreactors on land. It doesn\u2019t compete with other types of farming for arable land and grows fast, with some doubling in size every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022433433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022debe7110612c45e5912f58d5e1749ce2\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: How does this announcement fit within other Government initiatives currently under way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af41e87d16ef403ca1610b8755ab20aa\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: The national Aquaculture Strategy aims to grow our aquaculture and to do more aquaculture on land. The Draft Fisheries Industry Transformation Plan highlights the importance of collaboration across the sector, environmental sustainability, and innovation. This project will be another step towards turning the industry transformation plan into action. The microalgae funding has come from the Sustainable Food and Fibre Futures fund. It is the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 flagship fund for the food and fibre sector. Since the fund was established in late 2018, the Government and sector have collectively invested almost $560 million in 263 projects across the supply chain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ceadff21a4e4dad98a78a7f272f14b8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002274cf6c22df3d4a35891e16c7acf16c98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274cf6c22df3d4a35891e16c7acf16c98\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Is she confident the Government has the correct priorities in justice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022431c5872146045bdb51c5367a4f1463e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022431c5872146045bdb51c5367a4f1463e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. This Government\u2019s focus on justice is clear: we\u2019re backing the police with the rules and the tools they need to tackle crime; we\u2019re putting victims at the centre of our work; and we\u2019re focused on youth offending and cracking down on organised crime. We will continue to create opportunities to break the cycle of offending through programmes that we know are working, and we\u2019ll ensure that there is strong accountability and consequences for those who don\u2019t take up the opportunities that they are provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb7b1b22f534dcc91822d56d0fa9c36\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Will she drop the Government\u2019s target of reducing the prison population by 30 percent regardless of the level of crime in our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e75fb39410a43be93d6efd2945732eb\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: No. The two factors that we\u2019ve seen in the reduction of main offences are for drug offences and traffic offences, according to the information received from Corrections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdef3c1cc6b6419ca3efc1f2a70d181c\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Shouldn\u2019t the priority in justice be to reduce the number of victims of crime rather than the number of prisoners regardless of the level of crime in our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad82e936844b4eabb6201f515acb85a3\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: The track record of this Government is far better than the previous one, who cut funding to Victim Support. Since National left office, this Government has tripled the funding to the Victim Assistance Scheme and doubled the funding to Victim Support. As already stated today, we have already passed the Sexual Violence Legislation Act and also established Te Aorerekura, and we\u2019ll also introduce a bill to give greater protections and rights to the victims of family and sexual violence. My focus is on a justice system where victims are heard, and that is exactly what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee5accfdae44df6982188d63ddb5991\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t the thing that victims are most concerned about not to be a victim of crime, and how has her Government made progress when there are 33 percent more violent crimes being committed under her watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022395dbf7be88b4e9888757dc5249ecc74\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Under this Government, police numbers have soared to their highest levels in history. Operation Cobalt has cracked down on organised crime. New legislation has been passed that enabled police to search 26 vehicles, seize firearms, 11 other weapons, and make arrests in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki. National\u2019s track record on crime is not tough. They closed over 30 police stations, froze Police\u2019s budget, let numbers of police fall, and cut funding for Victim Support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022719fffca853c4674a06502d8e761840d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Is she confident the sentencing laws are right when convicted serious violent offenders routinely receive home detention, which, by the way, doesn\u2019t necessarily mean staying at home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59b747abcdb4ccabbe03a3951032bc7\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that perpetrators of serious crimes need to be held to account. The Government has not lowered any penalties for individual offences since we have been in office, and decisions in sentences are a matter for the judiciary, something that members of the party opposite don\u2019t seem to understand and saw dangerously close to the very fabric of our democratic institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220681a4e91c844b0ebb0f80b451901fd4\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I was asked about the sentencing laws; I was not asking about the sentencing decisions, and her comment was way off beam in relation to that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022678e9f2d90fc430ebea5d3b3fb08219b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad5b32927b17411f8905798cd47a5e41\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: All right. Why does she believe no restriction should be placed on the ability of judges to reduce sentences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223edda4ea02ac4c56942741adf689b6b4\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has not lowered any penalties for individual offences, and those decisions are made by the judiciary and are before the courts, and that is a matter for the judiciary, not a matter for these members in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296290d5c282a4611a27740799f49f015\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. She didn\u2019t answer my question. My question was: why does she believe no restrictions should be placed on the ability of judges? And she said\u2014that\u2019s an appropriate question. That\u2019s not a way to answer a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ac62b787169453e91c5f0a8f7eee1bc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll go back and check the Hansard, but in my mind it\u2019s been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f472973bace444dda2d23cc1e96fdca2\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Over what time period does the Minister claim that the first- and second-most prevalent reductions in offender type in prison were traffic and drug offences, and will she table the Corrections material she referred to as having given her that information in her earlier answer to a supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e245ba47b69c49e1888f2d9721cf706c\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: The specificity of the primary question\u2014I have that information and I\u2019m more than happy to make it available to that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b81fdb61cb54eda9908ea491fd9a29c\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0b13c4ae49943189fce0ec3b3aa0d9f\u0022\u003EMinisterial Resignation\u2014Hon Kiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002281adc5b2ec7c46549b4c082a70f0eec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281adc5b2ec7c46549b4c082a70f0eec4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from David Seymour seeking to debate, under Standing Order 399, the resignation of the Hon Kiritapu Allan as a Minister. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. Not every ministerial resignation warrants an urgent debate; however, debates have generally been allowed where the actions of a Minister have raised questions of probity. Therefore, I call on David Seymour to move that the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00220ff40532ed574580b01eb9502c64c5da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ff40532ed574580b01eb9502c64c5da\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis resignation signifies a very human tragedy wrapped up in a Government in disarray. The events surrounding Kiri Allan\u2019s resignation are sad. She is a person who I think most members would agree was someone of great talent and promise, and yet something that few of us understand has gone wrong and led to these tragic events. It is critical that the public understands what has happened because for the probity of Ministers, and ultimately the respect of the public on this House, it\u2019s just not acceptable to have a Minister of the Crown who is breaking multiple laws on one night\u2014who is driving while over the limit, or at least the infringement offence limit for alcohol consumption, and who has resisted arrest while serving as the Minister of Justice. Those are things that, despite the clear human tragedy at the centre of this resignation, the people deserve an explanation for in order to uphold the probity of ministerial warrants and this House. It is also absolutely critical that people understand the circumstances in which this person was put into this tragic position, because while it is a human tragedy it is also the case that it comes after a cascade of missteps and administrative bungles by this Government that are accumulating\u2014along with the costs and the frustration faced by New Zealanders who put their trust in this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe now have a Government that has no more gas left in the tank. It can\u2019t even field a full Cabinet. The fact that Kiri Allan will not be replaced in Cabinet raises questions over whether or not this Labour Party has the talent to field a full team, and whether or not she felt pressure to remain on the field because they simply did not have any subs on the bench capable of doing the job. It has led to one person holding the justice portfolio and the police portfolio. That is a real problem for New Zealand or any democratic nation, because the Minister of Justice is accountable for upholding those parts of the apparatus of State that uphold, in turn, the rule of law. The Minister of Police is responsible for advocating for the police who have to be restrained by that same rule of law. When a person is put in both positions, that creates a conflict of interest. And, unfortunately, conflicts of interest have led to much of the difficulty that this Government has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIt might have been possible to find someone to replace Kiri Allan as the justice Minister from within the Cabinet. An obvious choice would be somebody in the form of the Attorney-General, who is a lawyer. Perhaps that person could have helped. However, unfortunately, it was found that he was already busy with other jobs. Or perhaps he just doesn\u2019t want any job, but doesn\u2019t even want to be the Minister of Revenue. Perhaps if it wasn\u2019t for the Natural and Built Environment Bill, he would be off completely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EYou see, since the Prime Minister said she had \u201Cno gas in the tank\u201D back in January, there have been a total of five ministerial departures or resignations in just seven months. First, there was our Prime Minister\u2014which we can come back to\u2014then there was Stuart Nash, who was found to be leaking information to donors in breach of Cabinet confidentiality. And then there was Meka Whaitiri, who was planning to jump ship to another political party and the Prime Minister knew nothing about it. And then there was Michael Wood, the guy who had a conflict of interest with his ministerial portfolios that he failed to declare\u2014and when asked not once, not twice, but over a dozen times to resolve that conflict of interest, he didn\u2019t do it. So Michael Wood is gone. And now, sadly, we see the departure of Kiritapu Allan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that simply cannot hold it together. And people are right to ask: how can a Government so incapable of managing itself be asked to manage the many problems that New Zealanders face, with the inflation that ravages the cost of living, the lawlessness that ravages our streets. It was astonishing, just a moment ago we had what\u2019s called a \u201Cpatsy question\u201D: a backbench Labour MP asking the Minister of Justice\u2014or was it the Minister of Police? I think it was Justice; it\u2019s hard to know\u2014what is being done about gangs. What the Minister may not have known is that just an hour earlier, Sylvia Park was stormed by armed police, followed by ambulance officers, because two gang\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222811c3b7cc304b80931f6529a713e49f\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Speakers\u2019 rulings and Standing Orders are clear around debates of matters of urgent public importance. They are specific to the matters that are in the letter for the debate. While I know there needs to be a time for context, I believe, after listening to the seven or so minutes that the member has been speaking\u2014the vast bulk of his contribution\u2014his speech has not been about the resignation of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c2bb166699940999c2e09e18e116faf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019d have to agree with that summation of the contribution so far. I will ask the member to speak to the topic of the urgent debate. That\u2019s why I granted it. We\u2019ve had quite a bit of stuff in there that is not related, and the current topic certainly isn\u2019t a narration\u2014unless he can bring it very quickly to the topic at hand, then he should do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbe8dfbab10146ebb232520803052eb9\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I note that my letter did include the conflict created by one person holding both positions, and my letter also pointed to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022348348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228caeeca987824c6f976b1d5d799c9da6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just warn the member: he\u2019s having a habit of really commenting on the ruling I\u2019ve just made. I\u2019m well aware of what the application was. You don\u2019t need to\u2014in a way which I think is disrespectful to this House\u2014comment on that, and I\u2019d ask him to stop doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba8ae5082321415193a4af6cb3205d76\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The resignation of Kiritapu Allan has occurred in a context. It\u2019s occurred in a context of the management of people. It has occurred in a context where a person facing serious challenges was asked to work at full tilt. Having been under question for the challenges that she was personally facing, she was returned to work where she carried out a heavy schedule of announcements in the run up to an election, which amounted to reversing the positions that she, as a Minister in her Government, had been required to uphold for years as a Government and for years, in her case, as a Minister. That could only reflect back on the nature of the Government, the culture that had been imbued in it, and the leadership that it had. We cannot escape the fact that this tragic sequence of events is inextricably linked to the context of that workplace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe cannot avoid the fact that we have had a Government that for a long time has sought to make policy based on the hope that if only they announce that many houses would be built, it would happen. When you have a Government that constantly tries to ensure that things will happen simply by wishing it so, the frustration that amounts, the problems that arise in the public domain, the pressure that comes back on to Ministers as a result. Well, unfortunately, all of those things which fully reflect upon the Government have been contributing factors to this particular tragic sequence of events. The Government has lost a Minister in highly questionable circumstances that bring into question ministerial probity\u2014not just because of that individual\u2019s choices, which are clearly wrong and for which she has apologised, lost her job, and moved on. But they have occurred in the context of a Government that is failing at multiple levels and cannot be a good place for a Minister to be, where there is not a replacement to come on\u2014all of these things, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI can understand why the Minister of Finance doesn\u2019t want to hear them, but, nevertheless, they remain true. They are the true context in which these events occurred. It is simply the case that what we find ourselves with now as New Zealanders is a Government that can at best be described as a caretaker Government: one that cannot field a full team, one that cannot manage itself\u2014let alone the challenges of inflation, of lawlessness, and of division that have grown up like mushrooms under this Government. Failing and lacking the ability to manage itself or any of the problems that New Zealanders face, this Government will now amble towards 14 October, and at that time people facing these problems\u2014this inflation, this lawlessness, and this division\u2014will have to ask themselves: are they not better with a new team? Is it not possible that New Zealanders can hope to see a Government focused not on itself and its multiple losses of personnel, but instead focused on their problems and on solving them with practical solutions that aren\u2019t satisfied simply with sounding good, but actually work? That is the challenge that is now before New Zealanders. That is what this unfortunate sequence of events has brought about, and that is the arena into which ACT enters to provide a better solution, a better way forward, and one that is not going to be so tragically negligent of people that come to serve in the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI finish by giving my best wishes and regards to Kiritapu Allan at a personal level. She is a person that I have known and interacted with over the years and found to be a good person, a person of great intelligence and capability. She has chosen a course, and I respect, obviously, and would like to support from afar that choice that she makes. We wish her all of the best and we hope that all people who come here to do the job can find themselves in a circumstance where they can make a difference as part of a strong team that is responsive to the problems and challenges New Zealand face and put in place coherent solutions that actually solve those problems. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022362523f12aa74c3b99fd4b4142c2503b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022362523f12aa74c3b99fd4b4142c2503b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E It is with regret and a heavy heart that I rise today to speak on this motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to begin by sending my aroha directly to my friend Kiritapu Allan. I have admired the work that Kiritapu has done as a Minister and admired the work that she did before then. She is a person of extraordinary talent, intellect, heart, and mana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMany New Zealanders first came to understand who the Hon Kiritapu Allan was during her struggle with cancer, and the bravery and the courage that she showed during that period of time. I still have people who talk about the period of time where she was the Minister for Emergency Management and was needing to deal with a particular emergency in New Zealand whilst also knowing, herself, how unwell she was. What people saw there was a person who exhibited the strong qualities of leadership, as I say, and of courage and of bravery and also of enormous intellect as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe tragic events of Sunday night have been traversed extensively in the media and I remain very cognisant of the fact that they are also matters that will come before a court in the very near-term, and, obviously, this debate is taking place in that context. Very soon after those events early yesterday morning, Minister Allan tendered her resignation to the Prime Minister after a conversation with him. In doing so, she acknowledged, as she did publicly, that she knew that this was the only course of action that was possible. She fully understood that, as a Minister of the Crown and, in particular, as Minister of Justice, she could no longer remain in that role, having gone through the circumstances of Sunday night. She quickly and swiftly moved to resign and had that resignation accepted by the Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is undoubtedly the right thing to do. As Kiritapu Allan referred to, herself, in her statement, she understood that these actions were inexcusable, and therefore did not offer any excuse, and moved quickly to resign. That is the right thing to do. There is no excuse for the actions that have been acknowledged by Kiritapu Allan, including the driving while under the influence, and also the charges that have been laid. The consequences of that is that she is no longer a Minister, and she has suffered the consequences for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat I want to do, though, is place on record that while I understand and believe those to be the right actions to take in this situation, I do think this House can recognise that we have had a person working as Minister, who is a good New Zealander, a person who is able to relate well to other people, who is able to drive forward policy in a number of portfolio areas, and who represented, I think, to New Zealanders someone who they wanted to be in their House of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMy reflection is that as a group of people here, we are stronger and better for the diversity that is in this House. We are stronger and better for making sure that people can see a career in politics even if they\u2019re not perfect. From time to time, myself and others have stood in this House and probably said and done things, preying on the imperfections. It\u2019s part of what we do here, and it\u2019s not always right. But I especially think, when we know and when Minister Allan has been brave enough and courageous enough to talk about her own mental health struggles, that we do, as a Parliament, need to think about how we make the job we do\u2014the important job all of us do; not just the Government but the Opposition parties as well\u2014how we make it possible for people to be able to fulfil those roles with a diverse set of backgrounds, with a diverse set of current experiences, including struggles with mental health. I think we can do better, and I do include myself in that along with everybody else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe need to understand and respect the fact that mental health issues are things that can be worked through. Getting well is what it\u2019s all about; looking after your wellbeing, making sure that you understand how to manage issues when they arise, and that as a group of people in a population, we do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI mihi to Kiritapu for the way she\u2019s talked about mental health. I think it\u2019s opened up conversations just in the way that she talked about cancer. It\u2019s opened up conversations among New Zealanders that weren\u2019t happening. She should be proud of that and we should support her and others in doing so\u2014and I acknowledge my old student political colleague Todd Muller in this regard as well, as another person in this House who also did that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe do need, as a country, to understand the importance of mental health as an issue and understanding how we support people in all walks of life to be able to stay well, and when they are struggling, to be able to be supported to retain their wellbeing and get back to the place that they want to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe resignation of a Minister is always challenging for a Government. The Prime Minister\u2019s decisions around what to do when faced with that, in this particular instance, is a recognition of the short period of time that exists between now and when this House rises and we go to the election. We have just five more weeks of this House, and it\u2019s appropriate that Ministers take on the responsibilities that Kiritapu Allan had, to allow us continuity and to be able to move forward towards the election. I\u2019m extremely proud to be part of this Government and this ministerial team: people working every hour of the day to make this country better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan has been a valued member of that team and I am very confident that in years to come, her name will be heard again as doing something significant for Aotearoa New Zealand. She is a person who will make change for the better in the future in her life. What we want for her now is to be able to be given the space and the time to get well, for her situation not to be unnecessarily politicised, but for all of us in this House to gather around her, her wh\u0101nau, and her friends and give them the aroha and support that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EKiritapu, we are thinking of you, you are one of our wh\u0101nau, and we will always love you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022695b13abad894b7f86dab69d1c0d09d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022695b13abad894b7f86dab69d1c0d09d9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We\u2019re speaking in an urgent debate on the matter of the resignation of Kiritapu Allan as a Minister. It\u2019s a perfectly appropriate debate to have, because this is a serious event. The Minister of Justice was arrested, allegedly for resisting arrest, and she has resigned, and it\u2019s absolutely appropriate that the House should discuss that. And we\u2019ve heard some criticism from the other side of the House, as if this was somehow inappropriate, and I don\u2019t agree with that at all. It is quite right for us to talk about these matters and to put them in the wider context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe context is that this is the sixth resignation we\u2019ve had this year from the Cabinet. I\u2019ll just quickly run through them. Jacinda Ardern first, when she knew the game was up in January, and after five years there was very little to show for the efforts. Second, there was Stuart Nash for leaking information to donors and texting the Commissioner of Police about matters. Third, there was Meka Whaitiri, who showed such a level of animus within the Government that she made sure that her resignation was announced when the Prime Minister was on route to Britain to have a very unwelcome arrival in the airport there. Then, there was Michael Wood\u2014the \u201C16 times is not enough\u201D Michael Wood\u2014which descended into comic farce over a senior Minister not dealing with matters appropriately around conflicts of interest. Fifth is Kiri Allan, as was said, the Minister of Justice, resigning because of resisting arrest and a number of other serious matters. And the sixth, that we shouldn\u2019t overlook, which happened pretty much at the same time, was David Parker leaving his post as inland revenue Minister because he was unhappy with the decisions made within the Cabinet over the wealth tax\u2014not doing what usually is regarded as the honourable thing to do, which is to leave the ministry, full stop, if you don\u2019t agree with what the Cabinet agrees, but that\u2019s by the by. And so what we have is the \u201Cgreat resignation\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, we talked about that in the context of 2022, post-COVID, people leaving their roles. What we see under this Government\u2019s \u201Cgreat resignation\u201D is a Labour Party getting close to the election with nothing to show for their efforts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen it comes specifically to Kiritapu Allan and her resignation, much has been said and written over the last 24 hours. On the issue of her wellbeing and her mental health, I, of course, like most members of the House, do not know the details and what goes on in anybody\u2019s experiences. We are all very conscious that we are all fallible human beings, we\u2019re all struggling in a high-stress environment, and we all share concern for any member of Parliament\u2014in particular, for Kiri Allan at this time\u2014going through a difficult period. And so I don\u2019t propose to add anything more to that, because I don\u2019t know anything more about it. But what she has said, of course, is that none of that excuses her behaviour on Sunday night, and she has taken responsibility for that, as she really had no choice to do anything otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd so what can we talk about here? Well, we can and we should\u2014it is appropriate to assess her performance as the Minister of Justice. There has been a lot written. It was written that she was on top of her game. I think it was actually a much more mixed performance as Minister of Justice, because she is responsible for a Government which has struggled to make progress in the wider law and order space. And they have had, I think, I believe, the wrong priorities. And she has prioritised reducing the prison population by 30 percent, even at a time when there has been a real increase in crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd so we\u2019re all conscious of the fact, as we go around door knocking and talking to New Zealanders, that there are two issues that they are most worried about. They\u2019re worried about the cost of living and they\u2019re most worried about law and order. And we\u2019ve seen, throughout the period that the Minister who has resigned was the Minister, a period of no movement being made on very large reductions in sentences so that people with serious violent convictions are ending up on home detention. We\u2019ve seen a massive expansion in cultural reports with little to yield for it. We\u2019ve seen a massive increase in ram raids and youth crime generally. We\u2019ve also seen a very significant increase in the delays in the court system. So these are real, real challenges that affect people\u2019s lives. People\u2019s lives have been kept on hold for a long period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd then a final area is we\u2019ve moved away, as a country, from equal suffrage in the local government setting. The Minister of Justice should be standing up vigorously for the principle of equal suffrage\u2014all New Zealanders having an equal say in who governs them and who makes decisions affecting their lives\u2014and she failed to do that. In fact, she failed to even talk about that as an issue. And so that is a perfectly legitimate thing to analyse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo, like many Ministers, people will look back and see what was achieved. They\u2019ll be conscious of the particulars over which she resigned, but they will also make a judgment about the overall effectiveness of the Government in the justice space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd I suppose the broader context that we debate in this debate is the consequences of this resignation\u2014what it means for the Government, and what it means for what we have here, and what we all see is a Government that has been overcome with chaos, with confusion, and with incompetence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhy does that matter\u2014why does it matter? Because, ultimately, the confidence that people have in the Government really has an impact in the confidence, generally, in the country. If we go back to the fourth Labour Government, when it fell apart at the seams and Lange was fighting with Roger Douglas and the whole thing blew apart\u2014that had a terrible impact on confidence as well, because\u2014to understand the relationship\u2014when people are confident about how a country is governed, they are more likely to invest, and if they are more likely to invest, the country has a better chance to grow and to create jobs and to do well. And the inverse is true. When people don\u2019t have confidence that the place is well managed, that a Cabinet is coherent, and that the people within it govern themselves and the country well, they tend to hold back\u2014particularly now, when we have got to a state where the Prime Minister can\u2019t even remember who some of his Ministers are, because there has been such a rapid turnover. That sense of chaos is building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen you have one Minister being both the Minister of Police and the Minister of Justice\u2014which has been parodied up and down the country as the \u201CMinister of Catch and Release\u201D\u2014that all leads to a sense of lower confidence in the way that the Government is managing itself. And, ultimately, that is unhelpful for a country, and that is why we strongly believe the time is well and truly past for a change, so that we can reassure New Zealanders that they have a Government that can conduct itself well, that it has Ministers who are able to stay the term, and who will obey the rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u2019s case, I suppose, clearly is the most egregious in terms of breaking the laws as a Minister of Justice, but there has been, like I say, a number, over the whole period of the year, where rules have been broken and ministerial understandings and conventions have been moved away from\u2014whether it was Nash, whether it was Wood, or whether it was David Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a lot to reflect on in this. Nobody takes any joy from the personal downfall of any Minister. I would hope that all people across the House recognise that and they recognise the personal struggles that we have seen here. Like I say, I don\u2019t have any specific insight into that and can only offer my thoughts to Kiri and those who know her and love her. But we do quite rightly expect that our Ministers will obey the law, obviously, and that a Cabinet will be coherently run in good discipline and good order so that New Zealanders can have confidence in that Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing right here, right now, is the slow and steady disintegration of this, the fifth\u2014is it the fifth?\u2014no, the sixth Labour Government. That is a problem\u2014a political problem\u2014for this Government. It\u2019s a political problem for Chris Hipkins, but it\u2019s a broader problem for New Zealand, because, like I say, when people look to Wellington, when they look to the Government and they see such chaos, the implication is that people will feel less confident, ultimately, to make plans, to invest, and to have a long-term view because so much is so unsettled. And that\u2019s why it\u2019s so important that we restore good Government and good governance in this country. Thank you very much\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u002262282f2350354ec8b46850169dc8d7f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262282f2350354ec8b46850169dc8d7f6\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak in this debate, as I hope others have done, with grave sadness and a sense that, in fact, we shouldn\u2019t be here debating a deeply personal, tragic circumstance in the workplace of the person who, with so much courage, has in fact owned her actions many, many times over. I send nothing but our absolute aroha from the entire Green Party caucus, from myself, and I know many, many others out there in Aotearoa to Kiri\u2014or Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EIt is sad that we are standing here and debating this issue, but I want to hold that I have, in fact, been heartened by the fact that the vast majority of the reporting since yesterday\u2014when we all woke up as a nation with some shock and sadness to the news of what had occurred in terms of the traffic incident and the resignation of a talented Minister in our Government\u2014has in fact been different than it might have been a few years ago. There seems to be a greater understanding of workplace stress, of mental health, of the way that we talk about things like this in our communities and, in fact, the standards that we hold our leaders to when they stumble. So that actually made me feel a lot better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EAnd then I saw some of the political commentary in terms of my colleagues in this House and I feel compelled to comment on that, in that I think it has set us back, and in that I think we have a responsibility as members of this House to show better moral leadership. I want to say that as the last speaker, Paul Goldsmith, was wrapping up his speech he started to talk over and over again about how confidence would be eroded out there in the public. But I actually want to say to members of the public, because I know that many, many are finding it challenging right now in a post-COVID environment, in an environment where we\u2019ve always had challenge in terms of accessing mental health care, that, actually, no one will lose confidence in you if you stumble, if you talk about your mental health challenges or crises openly, that your workplace\u2014unlike this one\u2014will probably not make a public spectacle of you, and that, actually, as leaders, most of us in here would have chosen not to be standing up and debating something this personal and turning it into a challenge against your competence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI wish, on behalf of the National Party, that in the media we\u2019d seen someone like Matt Doocey, the spokesperson, or Todd Muller, a former leader\u2014both of whom have spoken about their own experiences\u2014front for that party rather than Chris Luxon or Paul Goldsmith, who actually turned it into an issue of Ministers needing a psych report to come back to work if they experienced challenges. I want the public to know that if you come forward and say that you are struggling with your mental health in your place of work, no one\u2019s going to institutionalise you and require you to come back with a psych report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWhen I went forward and talked openly about suffering from multiple sclerosis it was in part because members of that community kept telling me not to come forward because when they had talked about their chronic illness, they\u2019d realised that they weren\u2019t being promoted at work, they weren\u2019t seen as being competent enough, as other members of our disabilities community have since come forward and told me. So I felt like it was really important to talk about the way that I might need more support in the workplace as a multiple sclerosis sufferer, but that I can still do it. Because maybe it\u2019s important to have people with chronic illness in this place, and maybe it\u2019s important for this place to trust and respect us, just as it\u2019s important that members in this House trust and respect those of us who happen to represent the vast majority of people out there in the world in Aotearoa who have at some point in their lives had mental health challenges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EAnd I want to finish by commenting with maybe as much sadness and disappointment on the fact that David Seymour felt the need to call this debate at all, and that he had to be stopped twice during his speech for politicising what should have been an urgent debate only about the matter in hand, that it is shameful that in election year some members of this House still think that anything at all is up for debate. That\u2019s not what New Zealand wants. That is what calls the competence of us as politicians into question, not the fact that Kiri Allan suffered from a mental health challenge, that she lost a battle on that day, because we know that she will rise again. We know that life is long and that it\u2019s OK to have challenges. What\u2019s not OK is to see a workmate, see them stumble, and see a personal profit. That\u2019s not the politics that the people out there deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo with that, I want to send our aroha and support to a leader who we know will rise again, and to all the future leaders who will stand, who we will stand next to, who we will lift up no matter what your challenges, whether it\u2019s mental health, whether it\u2019s chronic illness, whether it\u2019s disability, whether you happen to be a queer M\u0101ori young woman like Kiri\u2014you\u2019ll be OK. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a46f703c80604db7b94a963616ab138f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a46f703c80604db7b94a963616ab138f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I too would like to begin my short contribution by acknowledging Kiritapu Allan and sending our love from her Labour wh\u0101nau to her. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge that the events of the last 36 hours once again highlight that this is a workplace like no other. I can\u2019t imagine a workplace anywhere else in the country where someone clearly makes a mistake, they acknowledge their mental health challenges, and then there is a discussion and a debate that is televised on TV for the whole country to see. I think it highlights something that I\u2019ve always been struck by in my time in this House, which is that when we see an MP stumble or when we see an MP\u2014from whatever side of the House\u2014clearly see their careers sometimes disintegrate within a matter of hours before our eyes, it is nothing that any of us find comfortable and it is not something to celebrate. It highlights what a different and difficult workplace this place can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge also the members of our caucus. Events like this have a ripple effect, and it\u2019s never about one person. We become pretty close in these jobs as a caucus and as colleagues, and when one member falls, that does have a ripple effect throughout the team. So I would like to acknowledge the very many members of our caucus who have wrapped their arms around Kiri in the last days and months to support her at what clearly was a trying time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EKiri has been brave in acknowledging that she was struggling with mental health issues. Last week, she came back to work, and the consensus was she was on top of her game. It was Kiritapu at her very best: articulating policy in her clear ability to communicate and to talk to New Zealanders in a way they understood was on show. But what we saw and what we can\u2019t ignore is that yesterday morning, we saw a Minister who had to have a conversation with the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister did advise that he did not believe that it was tenable for her to continue to hold her ministerial warrants, for very real reasons. I think it has been clearly documented what has happened from there, but I think the best thing now is that Kiri takes the time to heal, that she spends time with her wh\u0101nau and with her friends, and that she does spend that time healing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think that for the rest of us, it is time to reflect on the fact that there are no quick fixes when it comes to mental health. It is something that we have to make sure that we understand that things can change quickly and without warning, and it is something we have to think about in terms of our workplace here in Parliament. But we also, as a Labour caucus, need to continue to focus on all of those New Zealanders who are doing it tough at the moment, all of those members in our communities who are looking to their Government for hope and for support to address the cost of living, to tackle things like crime, and to make sure we have a health system that is serving New Zealanders and an education system that is fit for purpose, and that is exactly what Labour will be doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae27788e725f4d5180bbf0cb2ee041ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae27788e725f4d5180bbf0cb2ee041ea\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I first met Kiri in 2017 when we were both asked to participate in a press gallery debate to raise funds for a charity\u2014I can\u2019t remember what it was now. We both participated in that, and then later on, sitting out the back of The Backbencher, we had a drink together and we talked about an area that we both love, and that is the East Coast of the North Island\u2014Gisborne, from Ruat\u014Dria down to Wairoa, where, obviously, Kiri\u2019s family is from and my family is from also. I spent a good chunk of my adult life living over there. I transferred there in the police as soon as I had the opportunity and spent most of my time over there as a police dog handler, operating out of Gisborne. I just have to say that it certainly gives me a sense of comfort to know that Kiri is now back in Gisborne, a very, very strong community there, with her family, and they will be wrapping the support that she needs around her now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI want to talk to two parts of this. The first part is the human side. I do want to address some of the comments that my friend and colleague from the Green Party, Golriz Ghahraman, made, because, in this country, we are still fighting to overcome stigma. We are still fighting to allow mental health and depression to be spoken about openly as if it\u2019s any other ailment, whether it be a broken arm or a broken leg or a bronchial infection. It\u2019s just quite simply a chemical imbalance in the brain. No one wakes up in the morning asking to have mental health issues. No one wakes up in the morning wanting to be depressed. And we\u2019ve still got quite a long way to go. I\u2019ll just say to the Green member that she spoke about a psychological report as if it was a bad thing. It\u2019s not a bad thing. A psychological report is quite simply a report on someone from an expert in that field\u2014that is passionate and trains and has the ability to care for and provide a diagnosis and a support plan going forward, just like it would be the same if it was a broken arm and you had an orthopaedic specialist or an orthopaedic surgeon\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cbc9bca4dde4158965b46d10a9f19b5\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Are you saying to mandate it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed14bddac214b57b8208c9ce8572669\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m saying quite simply is this: if we want to get rid of stigmas, let\u2019s not continue to talk about them as if there is a stigma, as if there is an issue attached to those types of things. There\u2019s not. There quite simply isn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe human side of this\u2014and I\u2019ve been very clear about this. I consider myself, and I like to think of myself, as a friend of Kiri. I know that when she was facing the terrible challenge around cancer, which she took on bravely\u2014and, by the way, still remained very committed to her role as a Minister, as much as she could, and I think she deserves our admiration for that\u2014I certainly, on a personal level, tried to support her as well as I could through that cancer battle. We stayed in regular contact, and when she put her hand up, again bravely, a few weeks ago and said, \u201CI have got some mental health issues. There are some personal things happening in my life.\u201D\u2014and the tough thing about this job here is that it\u2019s a huge privilege but the reality of it is that you live in a fishbowl; you look out and everyone else looks in. We just have to accept that. That is the nature of this role. We serve the people that send us here. They expect us to be able to do that role, and they\u2019ll hold us to account. That\u2019s how the system operates, and that\u2019s how it should be. But it is very hard when you\u2019re dealing with deeply personal issues and those have been played out in public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWhen she put her hand up and she said, \u201CI\u2019m going to have to step back and take some time off because there are some personal issues and it has impacted and affected my mental health\u201D, I did send her a message. I sent her a message of support, and I said, \u201CGood on you for being brave enough to put your hand up, because maybe that will just help others to put their hand up and say that they need help as well.\u201D But my issue with what has happened with Kiri, and I\u2019ve been very clear about it, and some people don\u2019t like it, is that she should have been\u2014and I don\u2019t know whether she did have, because we don\u2019t know the details about her return to work. I want to acknowledge the Hon Willie Jackson, who is in the House. It appears that he has definitely been trying to provide her with support behind the scenes. But my point is quite simply this: she is in a much worse situation now personally, where she\u2019s got some big mountains to try and climb. That, in my view, didn\u2019t need to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIf someone is supported properly and if there is a proper process to allow them to come back and re-engage in the workplace, whether it be light duties or whatever the plan may be, as long as they\u2019re properly supported, you\u2019ve got a very high chance of success, of actually getting them back into the workplace. I\u2019ll just say this: often when people are depressed or they\u2019re suffering from mental health, they are not in the best position to judge whether or not they are ready to go back to work. They need people around them that are able to step back and have some perspective, whether that includes professional advice or advice from a counsellor\u2014whoever is providing that support and that treatment\u2014to be able to actually step in and make those decisions. I think what we\u2019ve seen played out in the last 24 hours, in my view, was avoidable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ENow I want to come to the important part too, and that is the fact that\u2014we all wish Kiri a speedy recovery and we all want to see that happening, but the reality of this is that our country at the moment is experiencing a massive crime wave. We\u2019ve got a cost of living crisis. We\u2019ve got interest rates going up. We\u2019ve got Kiwis now trying to borrow money just to get themselves through week to week. They\u2019re having to prioritise, and it is tough. And one thing they expect us to be able to do is come to this place and take that seriously and think about them and make the decisions and do the things that we have to do to make this a better country and an easier country to live in and raise your family. I think that when you\u2019ve got the justice Minister\u2014[Speaker gestures to member] Yes, thank you, Mr Speaker. When you\u2019ve got the justice Minister\u2014and this is the justice Minister; this is one of the highest law officers that we have in our country\u2014in a position where they\u2019re failing, allegedly\u2014and I must say \u201Callegedly\u201D, because we do understand that this is an ongoing police investigation and case\u2014not complying with our front-line police, that is about as bad as it gets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI just want to say one thing: in the last six years, our front-line police have had to deal with a lot. But one of the things that has been very tough for me to watch is that there\u2019s been a loss of respect in the way that gang members, youth, and juvenile offenders treat our police officers. They are not paid enough to be spat at. They\u2019re not paid enough to be assaulted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfd9363c337a41438d2ef8b9097c0f17\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mitchell, I\u2019ve asked you to keep this narrow. Keep it narrow or you will be sitting down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd77bccc38e4d83bb2cec6c08c887d6\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: And therefore, Mr Speaker, we should be sending a signal from this Parliament, from this House of Representatives, that we should be complying and respecting our front-line police officers. We had the person that held the highest position in our Parliament, in terms of the Minister of Justice, that completely failed on that level. And we have to take steps as a Parliament, all of us, and especially as a Government, to restate the fact that our police officers deserve to be shown that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EJust very quickly: when I was in Gisborne recently, I was very lucky that, at the police station there, they had a ceremony for me where they presented me with my old armed offenders squad cap, which was 20-plus years old. I hadn\u2019t worn that for over 20 years, and somehow they still had it in the station. During that meeting, they recognised the fact that they respected Kiritapu Allan. They respected her as their local MP. What\u2019s really important now is that this House and this Government gets up and very clearly says we respect the role of our police officers. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00227add0784820a49babdc02414d5a568ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227add0784820a49babdc02414d5a568ca\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister for Broadcasting and Media):\u003C/span\u003E E te tuahine Kiritapu, ahakoa he taumaha koe, i t\u0113nei wa ka hoki mai an\u014D koe, e mohio ana au. Kia kaha katahi ka toa, t\u014D m\u0101tou aroha ki a koe i t\u0113nei w\u0101. N\u014D reira kia kaha kia m\u0101ia kia manawanui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E[Sister Kiritapu, although you are feeling heavy, you will return, I know that to be so. Be strong and you will win. Our love to you. And so be strong, be brave and be resolute.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very sad time for this whole Parliament, and I agree with our lady from the Greens, Golriz, who said it for many of us\u2014that we did not need to have this type of debate today. Mr Seymour, on one hand, talks about supporting Kiritapu, and then this whole debate turns into a political k\u014Drero. It saddens many of us today, but what will be will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EHer resignation is tragic, and as Megan Woods said, we thought she was OK a week back. Yes, we\u2019re not experts, but she was adamant, and particularly with me, that she was ready to come back to work. Mental health\u2019s a funny thing\u2014well, it\u2019s not a funny thing; it\u2019s a terrible thing, I should say. I should put that in a better place. We saw how she operated in the media conference last week. She was absolutely on her game\u2014brilliant, actually. According to Claire Trevett, she gave a masterclass performance in the media conference on ram-raiding and justice. So who would know, when you see a Minister like that on top of her game? She worked well in the House after taking questions from the Opposition. Then just a few days later, down she went.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt was shocking for all of us to see how she went down that track. For me, I take this very personally. My uncle Moana Jackson talked to me about Kiritapu six years ago. He said to me, \u201CI have this young woman who is a great, great talent, and you better look after her.\u201D So that\u2019s when I first met Kiri. I hadn\u2019t met Kiritapu before. He said that she\u2019s got talent and brains and she\u2019s a contemporary of people like\u2014I think you\u2019re a bit older than her, Tama, but she\u2019s part of that legal crew who are so brilliant\u2014that young, M\u0101ori crew. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo he put it on me to support her, and so her and I have grown very close over the last six years. I suppose on Sunday I was very sad because she got in touch with me at 6\u00A0o\u2019clock and said she was a bit lonely and she wanted to go for a kai. I wasn\u2019t in Wellington at the time, but I thought everything was OK. We were happy at the end of our k\u014Drero, but at 10\u00A0o\u2019clock on Sunday night, it all went wrong. So just so saddened by this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut I suppose I\u2019m buoyed and happy when I see the type of support I heard from the Greens; the M\u0101ori Party have been very supportive. Our women out there\u2014I saw Professor Linda Smith salute her. She has a lot of support out there that other MPs would love, but I think it is because she represents so much. She\u2019s young, she\u2019s brilliant, she\u2019s funny, she\u2019s a young leader, and she\u2019s also proudly from the coast. You know, she\u2019s such a hard case, and at the same time is incredibly brilliant. So she\u2019s got so much support out there. So I\u2019ve heard the k\u014Drero. She\u2019ll rise again, and I\u2019ve said that to her too. Politics is a funny game. Politics is all about timing. A few of us know that\u2014a few of us know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa5765b8b894fb38acd2cc349301c63\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Winston. Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270684f44e66f4e558e30f9324539f6b0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s right, Mr Bennett. Like, when is the right time to come into politics? When is the right time to leave politics? When is the right time to come back into politics? For Kiritapu Allan, she is, without doubt, one of our mana wahine. She has been a leader for M\u0101ori, she has been a leader for her community, and she is revered right across the spectrum. I said yesterday when I was speaking to an interviewer that she\u2019s a bit different to some of us who just want to smash into the Opposition. She always rose above that. That\u2019s why people like Mr Seymour gave her a good mihi, and others from the Opposition, they supported her, because Kiritapu never really got too personal with anyone, and that was her great strength. I\u2019m glad now she\u2019s going to find some wellbeing with her wh\u0101nau. I wish her all the best, and she will be back. Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002288ff037795434564b3ef6b3d2e23de2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288ff037795434564b3ef6b3d2e23de2e\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I genuinely rise taking no pleasure from having to take part in this debate. I want to pass on my empathy and best wishes to Kiritapu Allan, and at this time, when her personal and private life is under such public scrutiny, just remind her that this too will pass, and many people have talked about the likelihood of her rising again. So I want to endorse those sentiments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI want to speak about Kiritapu Allan\u2019s resignation and the context of this, and it has been talked about before that her resignation comes within the context of five other resignations under this Prime Minister\u2014so Jacinda Ardern, Stuart Nash, Meka Whaitiri, Michael Wood, Kiri, and, of course, David Parker. But not only does it come within the context of those six resignations but it also comes within the context of many areas of failed reforms and failed behaviour from this Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI believe that in the context of this resignation, the Prime Minister is the common denominator of many of these issues. We\u2019re talking about a Prime Minister who, while an experienced politician, was certainly not an experienced people manager, and he was certainly not experienced in exercising judgment over staff or people that he worked with. I said very early in my time here that Chris Hipkins wasn\u2019t capable of running a bath because he had never run anything, and I stand by that, and so I think Kiritapu Allan\u2019s resignation has been an incredibly sad consequence of a person being in a position of leading who did not provide that support and leadership that she should have been able to expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI talk about the context of the things that the Prime Minister has been involved in in his time as Prime Minister and also as a Minister. I look at the education reforms of the vocational education sector that have been a complete and utter disaster. I look at the roll-out of the vaccines\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c14542e8523a466389620d16e965d18b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Come back, come back please to within the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da76ba7980c2414d9e3f53c993b79a96\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. So I\u2019m wanting to traverse the areas where I believe that the Prime Minister, and at the time when he was the Minister of these various areas, Chris Hipkins, has let down not only Kiritapu Allan but a large number of people. When I look at farmers who have lost hope for their\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022398b6c5590fe47bda1f8713669499f6a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I\u2019ve warned the member once to come back to within the scope of this debate which is an urgent debate centring around the resignation of a Minister. I\u2019ll ask the member again to stay within the parameters of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f4ab4ffeea54c9787932b52fd120e46\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I do think that the Minister resigning is very much as a consequence of the lack of support and the leadership that was not shown to her by the Prime Minister, and I believe that there have been a number of signals over the last few years that this Prime Minister, in his role as a Minister, has done similar things to people within those areas and now to his Cabinet. When we read through six Ministers in the last six months who have resigned, there is a common dominator, and the common denominator is Chris Hipkins, who lacks the experience and lacks the judgment to be able to offer the support that should have been able to be expected of a leader in that context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022f45ba6c90572464795bc72d390e8006c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f45ba6c90572464795bc72d390e8006c\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tau, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Paati Reipa i homaihia t\u0113nei rima miniti ki au ki te Paati M\u0101ori ki te tuku atu i ng\u0101 korero kei runga \u014D m\u0101tou ngakau i t\u0113nei w\u0101 n\u014D reira mihi nui ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EE Kiritapu ko koe t\u0113r\u0101 e matakitaki mai r\u0101 i t\u014D w\u0101 kainga, ka tiki ake au i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero kei roto i te pae pera tapu, i a Hone, n\u0101na i k\u012B nei kei roto i te pouri te m\u0101ramatanga e whiti ana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKa p\u0113r\u0101 pea taku korero ki a koe me te mea hoki ka tiki atu au i ng\u0101 korero a ng\u0101 matua t\u016Bpuna, he wahine he whenua ka mate te tangata, he wahine he whenua ka ora hoki te tangata n\u014D reira kia kaha ki a koe kia maia kia manawa nui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKoinei hoki te mihi hangai t\u014D ki a koe i t\u0113nei ahiahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[Greetings, everyone, thank you, Labour Party, for allowing me, the M\u0101ori Party, these five minutes to express what we feel right now. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKiritapu, you are sitting and watching this from home. Allow me to make reference to the Bible, to John who said, \u201CWithin the night there is always light shining.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThat may be what I have to say to you. Also I would like to reference our forefathers who said, \u201CThrough woman and land our people perish, but through woman and land our people also thrive.\u201D And so be strong, be confident, and be compassionate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThese are my kind sincere words to you this afternoon.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis whole debate focused on Kiritapu and the Government, to me, is a very narrow-minded debate. Instead what we should be debating is the institution of Parliament that continues to uphold a misogynistic culture that was imposed by British men. Everyone sitting in this House is responsible for upholding that culture. Suddenly, everyone here has turned into mental health professionals, when this is the very institution and the very people that choose, every day, to create mental unwellness amongst our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan is only one casualty among a long line of people who have suffered from the misogyny of this Parliament\u2014especially our w\u0101hine M\u0101ori: Alamein Kopu, Georgina te Heuheu, Metiria Turei, Claudette Hauiti, Nanaia Mahuta, Marama Davidson, Meka Whaitiri, Louisa Wall, and now Kiritapu Allan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis place is unsafe\u2014more so for M\u0101ori, and more so again for w\u0101hine M\u0101ori. The record shows for itself that the rules and traditions of this place perpetuate an unsafe culture. This place is makariri\u2014which means \u201Ccold\u201D, Mr Brownlee. It is void in spirit and this affects M\u0101ori more than anyone else in the House. Why? It\u2019s because it was built with the aspirations of ridding Aotearoa of its indigenous people through subjugation and assimilation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EIt is our responsibility\u2014every one of you here\u2014to do better, to challenge the very institution of this House that perpetuates misogyny and racism. How do we do that? Through constitutional transformation. We\u2019ve been very clear about constitutional transformation\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori has policies based on it. The Matike Mai report shows a way we could do that to ensure that is a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa, a system that is based on Te Tiriti, a system that allows tikanga M\u0101ori to be part of any political system here in Aotearoa. Our Aotearoa hou shows that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWhat does an Aotearoa hou look like? It looks like how we would treat you on the marae. This is the way Kiritapu Allan and all these other w\u0101hine M\u0101ori and all of us here in this room\u2014none of us exclusive of this\u2014would be welcome to an Aotearoa hou. What does that look like? It looks like how we would treat you on our marae. We will welcome you. We will feed you. We will house you. We will care for you. We will love you. That\u2019s the type of system we should be looking at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis is not about an isolated case of Kiritapu Allan\u2014k\u0101o. This is about ensuring that this is a safe place for everyone, that this is a safe place for minorities, that this is a safe place for tangata whenua, that this is a safe place for tangata Tiriti, that this is a safe place for w\u0101hine M\u0101ori. The record shows that it has not been a safe place for our w\u0101hine M\u0101ori. I named a whole raft of wahine M\u0101ori that had been affected by the Westminster system that has been imposed on us here in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo our challenge is to everyone here. This is an opportunity for us to start to look at a system that is more accepting\u2014that is more accepting, that is more Tiriti-centric, and that builds an Aotearoa hou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo, in saying that, ki taku tuahine, e Kiritapu, kia kaha ki a koe, he wahine M\u0101ori koe he tangata whenua koe, kauaka rawa e tukuna t\u0113tahi kia tuarua koe ki runga i t\u0101 t\u0101tou whenua me nama tahi t\u0101tou i ng\u0101 w\u0101 katoa. Madam Speaker, e te Whare, ng\u0101 mihi ki a t\u0101tou katoa, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[To my sister, Kiritapu, may you be strong, you are wahine M\u0101ori. You are people of the land. Don\u2019t allow anybody to say you are minority on our own land. We are number one always. Madam Speaker, the House, acknowledgments to us all, thank you all.]\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225ea4233af68844b28cc3abe4fda9e648\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ea4233af68844b28cc3abe4fda9e648\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Vanushi Walters\u2014five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00229b46ee6a80ae4e2caad4b8228c420f27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b46ee6a80ae4e2caad4b8228c420f27\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Like many of my other colleagues today, I rise with a heavy heart as well and join them in sending aroha to Kiritapu and to her wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really difficult to see someone who has such a heart for improving our justice system to have to step back in this way. I met Kiritapu many years ago when we were both working at YouthLaw Aotearoa and we connected really in terms of her passion for young people. That\u2019s something that has followed her through her role as Minister of Justice. Kiritapu was always someone who I think, while she had the ball, really was running, and that of course is very difficult to do when you\u2019re going through your own personal circumstances as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EIt is undeniable that her actions on Sunday night are unacceptable, but I think what that shows us is that mental health issues don\u2019t discriminate and they don\u2019t always present in the most obvious of ways. Sometimes they do sit under the surface and often the scale of those issues sits under the surface as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge that there has been a reallocation of the portfolios as a result of her resignation. I just want to acknowledge Minister Andersen as someone I know to be focused on responding to community concerns and very connected to justice issues across the portfolio. I would say to all those who are experiencing mental health issues that your present circumstances don\u2019t determine where you go; they merely determine where you start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI believe it\u2019s time now for us to give Kiritapu and her wh\u0101nau some peace to talk with themselves and some privacy. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e28fb510a86949498d906575ebf6a15c\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb1f41bfbeda4052bef17b2664e3d7f5\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022416343cba23644c8864ed81f1f446274\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022416343cba23644c8864ed81f1f446274\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into the morning of Wednesday, 26 July for the consideration in committee of the Natural and Built Environment Bill, the Spatial Planning Bill, and the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill; the interrupted debate on the second reading of the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill; and the first reading and referral to select committees of the Regulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Climate Change Response) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223d9e997494784144bc40619c7514094c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fd887a13f014a3393e103943a63414a\u0022\u003ELocal Government Electoral Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002210a990943ce740588726743682d93b49\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9ce329e244b4f22ae3a3485d9d83bf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9ce329e244b4f22ae3a3485d9d83bf5\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Local Government: I move, That the committee be instructed to consider and, if it thinks fit, adopt the amendments to the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill set out on Supplementary Order Paper 367 in the name of the Hon Kieran McAnulty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThis Supplementary Order paper will permanently enable local councils to have remote participants in their meetings to count towards their required quorum. This arrangement is already in place. [Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c288d3904ef049ecb894d5699b082761\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. No, I meant\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaedb296e9aa4863802ec5a5b798a20b\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: All good. Firstly, this was through the COVID-19 pandemic and now through the severe weather events. The temporary settings will expire, and this change will support the continuation of local authority business. It is supported throughout the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe change will make it easier for councils to conduct business and keep the choice about whether to enable remote participation in their hands. It is up to councils whether, and how, they will make use of this ability through their own locally determined standing orders. But for councils that cover sparse populations and large geographic areas, making these changes permanent will support those councillors representing remote communities to participate in local democracy. This proposal will place no additional cost pressures on local authorities who are already operating under this system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00226a3a4cda238743dd9a6f4e5fdbe029a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a3a4cda238743dd9a6f4e5fdbe029a9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00226be3d737b1854787926c376970102a43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226be3d737b1854787926c376970102a43\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. We\u2019ve heard, from the Minister, an explanation of why, in her view, the amendment\u2014the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014is a good idea. And I don\u2019t say that it\u2019s not; on this side of the House, we would need to consider the substance of that, and no doubt it would be in the context of those changes that are contemplated via a piece of legislation that\u2019s currently before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut what I don\u2019t understand\u2014and which the Minister did not touch upon; not that I heard anyway\u2014was why this process is being followed. Why is it that this idea that is seemingly so worthy has not been included in legislation before, within scope, that could have been set out, of course, by the Government itself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t intend to take much of the House\u2019s time to, effectively, pose that question. If the Minister is able to respond and explain how and why it is that we are being asked to agree to this change in process\u2014notwithstanding the merits or otherwise of the proposal itself\u2014then that would be helpful, I think, for the House to be able to form a conclusion as to whether we should allow the scope of that bill already in front of us to be expanded in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002211c7e21064da4e0c933d7c1c54acfb26\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the committee be instructed to consider and, if it thinks fit, adopt the amendments to the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill set out on Supplementary Order Paper 367 in the name of the Hon Kieran McAnulty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfe0db4bea8b451490c8f7add981cd15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfe0db4bea8b451490c8f7add981cd15\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Natural and Built Environment Bill, the Spatial Planning Bill, and the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022071491aa312b4c12be20d0cd757cc75d\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225459503f5b134d889205c1628273fdba\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002273965e3ca81845bbb9f021946acd2a98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273965e3ca81845bbb9f021946acd2a98\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Natural and Built Environment Bill, the Spatial Planning Bill, and the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fc9a8e0dee540f3b6f396bfecb5fc08\u0022\u003ENatural and Built Environment Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022670c3900fa5f41b88a7a38c031bc2dc3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022613d7c97db8f4d869e30a264c3c3edf6\u0022\u003EPart 1  Purpose and preliminary matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdbc58292c6a4817b53e1962720ae1ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdbc58292c6a4817b53e1962720ae1ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 12, \u201CPurpose and preliminary matters\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00223f328dded0f84d08a6a754ee63f6108d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f328dded0f84d08a6a754ee63f6108d\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We intend to spend a bit of time, on this side of the Chamber, on Part 1 because it is fundamental to the way in which the new Natural and Built Environment Act\u2014if it becomes an Act\u2014will operate. I want to start with clause 3, which is the purpose of the bill. I want to ask the Minister about \u201Cte Oranga o te Taiao\u201D, which states very broadly in clause 3(1): \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao.\u201D I\u2019d like to know from the Minister why the Government has decided to insert into our planning and resource management legislation an entirely new legal term, and has the Government thought through the implications of that, because there has been some quite noteworthy public commentary around the potential for extensive litigation as a result of this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI have a series of other further questions, but, as a starting point, I want to know about the rationale from the Minister for the insertion of \u201Cte Oranga o te Taiao\u201D into our new\u2014potentially new\u2014legislative framework, because the select committee actually strengthened, if anything, this provision and has made it very clear, through clause 3(1), that the purpose of the new Act will be to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao. I\u2019ve got further questions around how the use and development of the environment is subject to that. But that\u2019s a starting point\u2014question\u2014for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c08cc98aa0e34d6da32324b636a0b288\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c08cc98aa0e34d6da32324b636a0b288\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you for the question; it\u2019s an important one. This essentially adopts the recommendation of the Randerson panel that has since been worked up by the Environment Committee and by officials. The recommendation of the Randerson panel was to change the purpose clause from the Resource Management Act (RMA) purpose clause to \u201Cte Mana o te Taiao\u201D. When the exposure draft went to the select committee for an inquiry around these essential parts of the bill, the recommendation of submitters and the select committee was to change the term from \u201Cte Mana o te Taiao\u201D to \u201Cte Oranga o te Taiao\u201D, and through the development of the legislation the meaning has been further clarified. It is a M\u0101ori word, but it is a defined term and I don\u2019t think the committee should get hung up by the fact that it is a M\u0101ori phrase rather than an English phrase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe defined term is intended to emphasise that the purpose of the bill is essentially twofold. The RMA system has failed on both the protection of the environment and the enabling of development. We\u2019ve seen the problems with the RMA in respect of development show up in the escalating land prices, the huge increase in the cost of consenting infrastructure, which, for a mid-sized project in New Zealand, the Infrastructure Commission has proven that the consenting costs\u2014never mind the cost occasioned by delay\u2014have increased to 5.5 percent of project costs for mid-size infrastructure projects. For small projects, the cost is about 16 percent of the project cost, which is disproportionate relative to the benchmarks overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s failed on the pro-development side, but it\u2019s also failed on the protection of the environment side, as evidenced by the fact that we\u2019ve had declining water quality, we\u2019ve seen continued loss of biodiversity\u2014particularly around wetlands, but lots of other instances of loss of biodiversity\u2014and the existing RMA system has been ineffective at guarding against cumulative effects. The \u201Cavoid\u201D, \u201Cremedy\u201D, or \u201Cmitigate\u201D principles of the RMA may have, in the end, turned generally into mitigate, and large numbers of mitigated effects have piled up into cumulative effects that have seen the degradation of water quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the purpose of the new Act is to overcome both of those problems, and it\u2019s achieved by setting out this purpose clause, which does have a M\u0101ori phrase, but it\u2019s a defined term and members will note that it\u2019s defined to mean in the bill \u201Cthe health of the natural environment, \u2026 and the relationship between the health of the natural environment and its capacity to sustain life,\u201D. And none of those are new concepts\u2014\u201Cthe relationship between the health of the natural environment and the health and well-being of people and communities\u201D; I think we can all agree with that as a House as well. And then \u201Cthe interconnectedness of all parts of the environment\u201D, which is not just a reference to the natural environment but it\u2019s also the built environment\u2014agriculture; it\u2019s all caught within the broader definition of environment, which is set out in the bill. And then the final part of the text is \u201Cthe relationship between iwi and hap\u016B and te Taiao that is based on whakapapa.\u201D That reference to whakapapa was inserted by the select committee\u2014it actually came from a suggestion from Barbara Kuriger, who was worried that the prior reference was unclear that this was a reference to the whakapapa relationship, or the historic relationship, if you like, between people locally and their natural resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, the purpose of the Act is to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao, and it must be achieved in a way that firstly protects the health of the natural environment\u2014that\u2019s to guard against these cumulative effects, and there are some exceptions to that for infrastructure that\u2019s necessary, but we can come to that in later parts of the bill. But then having protected the natural environment\u2014and this is a reference to the biophysical environment, not matters of personal taste that have bedevilled the RMA, which has, you know, led to a lot of nimbyism. It\u2019s about the health of the natural environment. But then, subject to that, once you\u2019ve protected the natural environment, fill your boots, fill your boots\u2014it\u2019s saying, subject to this, \u201Cenables the use and development of the environment in a way that promotes the well-being of [both] present and future generations.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdc27bccb802440b91467d6f83046d0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdc27bccb802440b91467d6f83046d0e\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for that useful illumination. A number of issues arise\u2014I mean, no one\u2019s placing much emphasis on the fact that the phrase is a te reo M\u0101ori word, or even te ao M\u0101ori. It\u2019s the fact that it has not been used before that is the thing that people are worried about, and, yes, it is defined in subclause\u00A0(3). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI suppose I\u2019d just make a number of points to the Minister. The first is that if you read subclause (3) of clause 3, it\u2019s all about the environment. So it\u2019s the \u201Chealth of the natural environment; \u2026 the relationship between the health of the natural environment \u2026 the relationship between the health of the natural environment and the health and well-being \u2026 the interconnectedness of all parts of the environment; and \u2026 the relationship between iwi and hap\u016B and te Taiao that is based on whakapapa.\u201D Well, there\u2019s not a lot there about development and there\u2019s not actually a lot there about growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Minister waxes lyrically, rightly, about competitive urban land markets and making room for growth and urban growth\u2014and that\u2019s important\u2014and says that land prices are too high, and all of that is correct. But none of that is mentioned in\u2014and I see the Hon Phil Twyford nodding. I was going to say \u201Cvigorously\u201D, but he\u2019s not nodding that vigorously. But he\u2019s nodding gently\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022066bd1a54ced498aab6ca19ecfebfbc0\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s nodding off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cba780493df4d51b4b7b557ed65c15f\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014agreeing. He\u2019s not nodding off; he\u2019s very interested in this. But none of those very important matters are mentioned in subclause (3). Subclause (3) is all about the environment. I suppose that if you were stretching things, you could say \u201Cthe health and well-being of people and communities;\u201D, but the other various clauses that surround subclause (3)(c) are all about the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo the first concern is that the purpose of the Act is to uphold a series of environmental outcomes, and then you get to the next bit, which is \u201CThe purpose must be achieved in a way that\u2014\u2026 protects the health of the \u2026 environment;\u201D. Now, as the Minister will know, \u201Cprotect\u201D has been defined by the courts in King Salmon as a particularly specific thing. \u201CProtect\u201D is a particular legal term, and post - King Salmon, the threshold for protecting the environment is a higher one. So the Minister says that, well, once you\u2019ve sort of satisfied the biophysical limits, you can fill your boots and do whatever you like, except much of the development that we want in New Zealand has an effect on the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246fd03bb6b91498bad9c153efa9bd509\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what the courts say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd1bdd9f4e5d47febc6fbbf7e9aab01f\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not what the courts say, Scott Simpson says, but much of the development that we want has an effect on the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo, for example, we want more houses. We\u2019re desperately short of houses in New Zealand. We have uncompetitive urban land markets. Land prices and, therefore, house prices are way too high, and the Government knows this. I just wish they would go back to the work that the Hon Phil Twyford spent so much time in Government developing\u2014which Megan Woods doesn\u2019t appear to understand\u2014which is that smashing urban limits is the way to drive down land values and drive down house prices. That\u2019s what we need to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022940873c484ff4286a984e6e4917df2b9\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292fa1587904f4b93adb1a59382ad9a45\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Simon Court is nodding away, but he should maybe mention that to Brooke van Velden, who also seems to think that Auckland has got more than enough housing in Auckland right now when, clearly, it doesn\u2019t, which is why 25,000 people are on the social housing wait list and we have 10,000 families living in motels. So, absolutely, we need to smash urban limits and go for growth\u2014and that\u2019s actually National\u2019s policy\u2014but my point is that that has an effect on the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ETo take another most obvious example, building wind farms has an effect on the environment. Geothermal power stations have an effect on the environment\u2014they have a noticeable effect on the environment. But the point is that living our lives as humans has an effect on the environment. What the Minister is saying is that, subject to protecting the health of the environment, it can enable the use and the development of the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I suppose my overall point is that what was basically a balancing approach through the current Resource Management Act (RMA), in which we recognised that having humans living their lives has an effect on the environment, and it\u2019s about how you take account of those effects and mitigate them where possible, but accepting that sometimes you can\u2019t\u2014sometimes you just can\u2019t. Building a wind farm has an effect. It may result in the loss of birdlife. Geothermal energy has an effect on water and geothermal substructures in the Waikato and various parts of Lake Taup\u014D, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBuilding housing has an effect on the environment. It frequently results in more roads being built, and those roads go through areas of, well, farmland\u2014and there\u2019s the whole issue of the National Policy Statement on Highly Productive Land, which is a whole other issue which we will no doubt turn to in due course. But building roads has an effect and, you know, it results in embedded carbon and all the stuff Julie Anne Genter hates\u2014all that stuff\u2014but I think most people would acknowledge that we need roads to unlock land for housing, and, actually, I would argue that an inability to do that over the last 20 or 30 years has resulted in many of the social problems we face today: unaffordable housing and all the things I\u2019ve previously talked about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s all very well to say that you can do whatever you like, subject to protecting the environment, but the problem is that protecting the environment has been defined by the courts already as being a high threshold. It requires quite a lot of things to happen, and this is the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EClause 3(2)(b) says that the development and use of the environment \u201Cthat promotes the well-being of \u2026 present and future generations.\u201D is subject to paragraph (a), which is protection of the health of the natural environment. So it\u2019s only once you\u2019ve protected the environment\u2014which, as I\u2019ve previously indicated, requires onerous action\u2014can you get use and development of the environment, and it\u2019s wrong-headed. It\u2019s round the wrong way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve gone from what was, essentially\u2014I\u2019m paraphrasing, and I\u2019m not a legal expert\u2014a balancing approach through the current RMA, which no one is defending as being perfect, but we\u2019ve got to deal with what\u2019s in front of us, and it\u2019s been put on the Table by the Government. We\u2019ve gone from what was, essentially, a balanced approach, or a balancing approach, to something that I think, and I think many people think, looks like an environmental protection statute at the expense of many other things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Minister, I think, knows that the legislation we\u2019re passing has to accomplish many things. That\u2019s why, if you read through the supplementary analysis report and all of the voluminous volumes of paper that have been produced about competitive urban land markets and the promotion of renewable energy and all of the things that most of us want\u2014the Greens don\u2019t, but most of us want\u2014the Minister knows that all of those things are important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnd here\u2019s the issue: I worry that if we pass this, we are going to end up with a statute that makes it nigh on impossible to actually accomplish those things, because we will be writing into statute a provision that makes it very hard to actually fulfil clause 3(2)(b), which is the use and development of the environment, because we\u2019re saying that using the environment and making use of the abundant natural resources we have in New Zealand, or the abundant land\u2014we\u2019re the size of the United Kingdom, but we\u2019ve managed to design a planning system that has resulted in some of the most unaffordable houses in the developed world. We\u2019ll be writing into law a provision that acknowledges those problems, but actually makes it impossible to use our abundant resources to develop our economy and our wellbeing, which is the buzzword du jour, because we\u2019ve decided that the protection of the natural environment is, essentially, the\u2014it\u2019s not quite the be-all and end-all, but it\u2019s not far off the be-all and end-all, because everything else is subject to the health of the natural environment and the protection of the health of the natural environment, and the purpose of the Act is to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao, which\u2014as I\u2019ve said before\u2014if you read through, it contains very little reference to many of the other goals the Minister has rightly talked about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAll four of the five subclauses in that clause are about the health of the natural environment. Clause 3 is fundamental and I think it is going to sink the whole bill, personally, because it is absolutely critical, and members will know that it\u2019s the purpose clause. This will suffuse itself through and diffuse itself through everything that happens through the new regime, if, indeed, it passes into law. The courts will refer back to it, decision makers will refer back to it, and people will be obliged to refer to it. It\u2019s the purpose clause of the whole bill and we\u2019ve got to get it right, and I am utterly unconvinced we have the balance right. I think it will be a disaster in practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s many a contribution there. No doubt, the Minister has many things to say in response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220ec263e9e71e485fbc80bb219a8e8551\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ec263e9e71e485fbc80bb219a8e8551\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will endeavour to respond to each of the points that the member has made, and if I fail to address some of the points that are important to him, feel free to put them back to me again because I believe there are answers to all of the questions that have been posed. For a start, I would make reference to the definition of \u201Cnatural environment\u201D and \u201Cenvironment\u201D. Now, \u201Cenvironment\u201D is defined in the interpretation section of the Act to mean the natural environment, which we all understand; people and communities and the built environment, that includes buildings and roads and farms, etc.; and social, economic, and cultural conditions that affect those matters. So the \u201Cenvironment\u201D is, as you would expect, a very broad definition. The \u201Cnatural environment\u201D is narrower than that. But when the member referred to \u201Cthe interconnectedness of all parts of the environment\u201D, that is expressly making reference to the fact that the built environment\u2014the farms, the industry, the roads, the trains: they\u2019re all an important part of the equation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, the second point I would make is in respect of the purpose clause. It says that subject to protecting the natural environment\u2014and that\u2019s not an absolute: you can\u2019t always protect a natural environment; I agree with the member\u2019s point there. You can\u2019t absolutely go back to some sort of idyllic conception of New Zealand\u2019s natural environment pre-occupation or pre-possums who\u2019ve desecrated our forests, or pre-human activity. So it\u2019s not saying that we\u2019re going to return New Zealand to an idyllic state like that. It\u2019s saying that subject to protecting the health of the natural environment\u2014which isn\u2019t an absolute\u2014we enable the use and development of the environment that promotes the wellbeing of present and future generations. And that includes housing, that includes roads, that includes rail, that includes industry\u2014that\u2019s all in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EHow do we do that? The purpose clause is necessarily a statement of generalities; it always is. So how do you put that into practice? Well, the member will be aware that the next clause after the purpose clause sets out the means for achieving the purposes of the Act, and it says, \u201CThis section sets out the following key [matters] to achieve the purpose of the Act\u201D. And the first is the system outcomes which must be provided for the national planning framework, and, at a regional level, plans. Now, I\u2019m not going to go through all of the other subsections of that because the first two are probably sufficient for the current discussion. Those system outcomes are then set out at clause 5 of the bill and they include, amongst other things, environmental things to be provided for, public access, recreational use, well-functioning urban and rural areas that are responsive to the diverse and changing needs of people and communities in a way that promotes the use and development of land for a variety of activities, including for housing, business use, and primary production. So the outcomes, which sit under clause 5 of the bill, expressly provide for those development outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo how does the system do that? Well, it does it both through that hierarchy that\u2019s set out\u2014both the principles that are set out in the Act. But, actually, the detail of it sits in national direction through the national planning framework and then in plans. But then, of course, the member, Mr Bishop\u2014I was going to call him Mr Bridges there for a second, sorry\u2014says, \u201CWell, you can\u2019t achieve everything all of the time\u201D. Well, that\u2019s quite true; in not every area can you protect the habitat of kiwi and build a house. It\u2019s obvious. And the Act says, at section 5A, that \u201Cnot all [of the] outcomes are required to be achieved in all places or at all times\u201D\u2014that\u2019s in 5A(2)(b). So I agree with that, as well, but the legislation already provides for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the reference to King Salmon, the hierarchy of instruments that was found to be effective if well stated, according to King Salmon, is preserved in the statute. Until the King Salmon decision you could theoretically have quite directive statements in both the Resource Management Act and then in national direction, and then you could have some quite grunty words and plans, but then someone applied for a resource consent and the lower courts had always said, \u201CWell, notwithstanding all of that, you balance everything\u201D. Well, what King Salmon said is so long as the hierarchy is clearly stated, including a pro-development hierarchy where you\u2019re developing things, then that hierarchy prevails and you can\u2019t just throw everything up in the air again on an individual consent decision and make a balanced decision. You\u2019ve got to do what the law says, which is set out in the Act and then in national direction. Now, the national planning framework comes into play here and I\u2019m sure that will come up later so I won\u2019t go into that in detail now. But it, for the first time, includes some pro-development chapters that will facilitate development of infrastructure, which of course is also central to housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e80446aa8639466ea477ee4f25bf31e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e80446aa8639466ea477ee4f25bf31e0\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. One of the many challenges with this bill is its length and complexity, and the fact that the Minister has presented a number of changes in his Supplementary Order Paper (SOP)\u2014I think the latest SOP was 3.56 p.m., about 15 minutes before we started debating the committee stages. So I\u2019m not sure that I\u2019ve come to grips with all of the changes, but the use of the revision track changes version is helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ECould I go to new clause 3A which is the means for achieving the purpose of the Act, which the Minister was just referring to, and note there that the Minister\u2019s SOP is very helpfully using words like outstanding, which is referring to intrinsic values, which was missed out in the version that the select committee reported back. But in terms of natural features and landscapes, there has been a change in new clause 3A(i) that refers to the fact that natural features, including geoheritage features\u2014and that was an important change that the select committee made to the bill to recognise geological features\u2014and landscapes that are important at the local and regional scale, may be provided for. This is still quite a significant change from the Resource Management Act, where the protection of outstanding natural landscapes and features is a matter of national importance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ECould the Minister explain what he sees as the purpose of that change through his SOP, and whether he sees natural built environment plans, the regional plans, and the regional planning committees as having quite a responsibility to ensure that those regionally important landscapes and natural features are actually identified, and provision is made for their protection? Recognising that the way places of national importance are defined in the bill doesn\u2019t require these places at the regional and local level to\u2014doesn\u2019t really include them within the definition. So if he could just talk to what he sees that the changes that he\u2019s proposing to 3A(i) will achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab3f81c7bc274a21a6e89cab98549871\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab3f81c7bc274a21a6e89cab98549871\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I take it that the member is referring to new clause 3A(h) and (i)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237f3a77bf7294b0eb439929660e07c0c\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223520efbef809491081e1e85862659adf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The current system enables the protection of a wide range\u2014this is the Resource Management Act system\u2014of biological and historical features, and features of cultural significance. The new system aims to\u2014I\u2019ll go back a step. The new system aims to categorise those according to two levels measures: matters that are nationally important and matters that are regionally or locally important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of those things that are nationally important, this is essentially built on the Australian system where they seem to have achieved a better balance of protecting the truly important, but not pretending that the important but not as high level of importance should have the same level of protection. Now, why is this important? When Parliament is considering the protection of important matters such as these, Parliament has a choice as to whether we have a high level of protection which is seldom breached, or a lower level of protection which can often be breached. If Parliament sets up too high a level of protection for everything, you effectively frustrate the system, and you can build things that you need, when you need to, too often. So what this section does is try\u2014it doesn\u2019t try; it actually achieves the requirement for the nationally important to be identified and then have very, very limited exceptions to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EEssentially, if it\u2019s a matter that\u2019s nationally important in respect of a highly vulnerable biodiversity area, then that area must be recognised, protected, and sustained for their intrinsic value for the benefit of present and future generations. Then there are some very specific provisions later in the Act that say that even then you have to have the occasional exception, because there are occasions when you can contemplate\u2014but even then there\u2019s some important piece of infrastructure that can go nowhere else, but the country none the less needs to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of those highest level of protections, it\u2019s a very high bar to cross to being able to get an exception, and there are only limited exceptions for the likes of those classes of infrastructure. Even then, if you got an approval because there was no other practical place that you could put it, there would be offsetting requirements in order to offset the adverse effects that were created by that infrastructure that can\u2019t be put anywhere else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo other than those exceptions, the high level nationally important and highly vulnerable biodiversity areas must be recognised, protected, and sustained for their intrinsic value and for the benefit of present and future generations\u2014the Australian system, and it works in Australia, I\u2019m advised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the lower level\u2014and I don\u2019t want to diminish them to say they\u2019re irrelevant; they\u2019re not, but it is wrong to say that everything is just as important. Those matters, the protection of natural features, including geoheritage and landscapes, they\u2019re important at the local and regional scale. They can be provided for, but they\u2019ll generally be provided for in local plans. That\u2019s essentially the rationale that lies behind those clauses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022877ebe7282964f44b7d3c223131876bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022877ebe7282964f44b7d3c223131876bc\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m delighted that the Minister has confidence that because something happens in Australia, it might happen here. Well, I\u2019m not so sure and I remain to be convinced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut I think partly the issue that we have on this side of the House is that what we\u2019ve heard just from the chair of the Environment Committee about the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) being delivered to the Table literally 15 minutes before this debate commenced\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846e3b90d2ef495aa465be0e38dbb2d8\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b37681aead72433bb494ca4c55021a5f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not this one? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9209965ed94b67b79f63d9311cc4e3\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b4ae3f9b96945e78ed2e741710cacc7\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m interested to know, then, what was the SOP that the chair of the select committee was referring to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut, indicatively, that\u2019s part of the problem, and has been from the get-go, with this piece of legislation. It is that it is being amended on the fly and has been for the last six or seven month that it\u2019s been considered either through the initial Randerson report, through the initial draft piece of legislation that we saw and considered at the select committee, and then to the actual legislation, and then to the submissions, and then officials changing their mind and rewriting and re-wording all the way through. It has been very much a moving feast and continues to be. I think that\u2019s really the essence of some of the problems that we have with Part 1 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to go back to some of the issues that my colleague Chris Bishop raised in his earlier questioning of the Minister, and it relates to the inclusion of this whole new unjudicially tested concept of te Oranga o te Taiao. Now, we\u2019ve heard the Minister talk about the rationale for inclusion of that, and it goes back to Randerson, and we understand and get that, but we haven\u2019t actually heard why\u2014why it was that this terminology was used. At the select committee, we heard from many submitters who thought that the wording should be different. There were some who were interested initially in the original wording, which was that \u201Cte Mana\u201D be used rather than \u201Cte Oranga\u201D. So there was a change there along the way somewhere, and I\u2019m keen to know in some detail about what that change was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThen we also heard from a number of iwi and hap\u016B submitters that they felt that they should be able to define the phrase, rather than letting the Parliament define the phrase. My concern is that it won\u2019t be the Parliament or indeed hap\u016B or iwi who end up doing the definition; it will be an activist judge somewhere or a whole bench of activist judges somewhere that will make a final determination as to what the interpretation of that phrase means and what its implications are, because they flow through the rest of the entire statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd then the Minister rightly points out that clause 3(3) then goes on to define what the meaning is. Well, I\u2019d say that\u2019s not so much a definition; it\u2019s more of a description rather than a definition. The potential for judicial interpretation is going to be obvious and it\u2019s going to be long and it\u2019s going to be expensive. And I just pity the poor schmuck that is going to be the first test case for the interpretation of some of these new phrases, the new terms. We all accept that much of the existing Resource Management Act is not serving us well. But to consider that a whole new phraseology and new terminology is going to somehow clarify that, I think is folly and I think it\u2019s going to create even more problems than we have heard to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t doubt the sincerity of the Minister. He\u2019s very good and I respect his knowledge and his expertise, both from a ministerial point of view but also as a former practitioner in this area of the law; he knows what he\u2019s talking about. But most people don\u2019t. Lay people don\u2019t, and many of the legal practitioners don\u2019t. The challenge, I think, for us when we are preparing legislation of this sort is that the terminology, the phraseology should be, wherever possible, consistent with that which has already been interpreted by the courts. And it would have been useful if we could have had wording that was consistent, tested and understood by lay people, by practitioners and by developers, and also by environmental groups, NGOs and the like, who obviously take an interest in all these matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo we are concerned, on this side of the House, about the use of new terminology, what it means, how it\u2019s going to be interpreted. And the Minister said that, really, a purpose clause is nothing more than a statement of generalities. Well, actually, that\u2019s true to a point. But the trouble is that those generalities then have to be interpreted and made to work in practical terms. What we will be testing as we go through this clause by clause, part by part, over the next day or two, is: what does this mean in practical terms? What is it going to mean for someone who wants to build a development, a housing development? What does it mean for a local council that wants to do some development? What does it mean for someone who just wants to build a house? Does it make it easier to get things done? And we on this side of the Chamber have some real concerns about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my questions to the Minister relate again to some further probing of the use of the new terminology. Yes, I understand that this is terminology that was first conceptualised in the Randerson report. But what we don\u2019t have is an analysis of why Randerson necessarily should be carved down as some kind of a tablet from upon high as being the be-all and end-all. We have never accepted that on this side of the House and we still don\u2019t today. So I\u2019m keen to delve into what that was all about. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0d47b2fbadb4e31811c3aa613cf077e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0d47b2fbadb4e31811c3aa613cf077e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In respect of the Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs), can I begin by thanking the Environment Committee, because, actually, relative to the length and importance and detail of a cornerstone piece of development and environmental legislation, the changes that have been made by Supplementary Order Paper today are very small, because the hard work that was done by the select committee put in the vast majority of the amendments that were necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, the amendments that are set out in a change-tracked version of the bill, which is Supplementary Order Paper 389, members will see, as they leaf through that, that the vast majority of this text is unaffected by the Supplementary Order Paper. And members will see, when they read through those change-tracked versions there, that nine out of 10 of them, or 90 out of 100\u2014or 99 out of 100; I\u2019m not sure\u2014really are technical changes. There\u2019s not much of substance in the SOPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, there are three tabled amendments that are in my name that are a page long each. The latest of those was tabled at 3.56 p.m., which was the one that was referred to by the Hon Eugenie Sage. You\u2019ll see that they\u2019re very, very brief tabled amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the fact that there will be some new law as a consequence of the change to this regime, you can\u2019t change the regime without changing it. This moves to an outcomes-based regime from an effects-based regime. Those outcomes, as I have previously described, they can\u2019t all be achieved at all places, but generally we\u2019re trying to put heightened emphasis on protecting the biophysical or natural environment. We are lessening the impact of matters of personal taste, because we think that\u2019s been a crutch upon which nimbyism has rested. And subject to that, we are pushing forward development to make it easier to develop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, even if we hadn\u2019t changed the purpose clause and we had just said that the old Resource Management Act purpose clause had to be achieved according to the new outcomes regime of the new legislation, that would have thrown up for reinterpretation the existing purpose clause, because the effect of the purpose clause would have been different than it is in the new statute because of this movement away from an effects-based regime to an outcomes-based regime. So the idea, with respect to members who think that you can actually substantially change your resource management system without having reinterpretation of the same phrase or a substitute phrase for it, is, with respect, incorrect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve gone through for prior members at some detail how te Oranga o te Taiao works. The change from \u201Cte Mana o te Taiao\u201D to \u201Cte Oranga o te Taiao\u201D as being the term which is defined occurred at the first select committee inquiry on those main provisions of the bill, and it\u2019s been further refined at select committee to, we think, make it clearer so that, in part, the development side of the purpose clause is not complicated by environmental outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EObviously, if you\u2019re developing, you still want to minimise the environmental effects, but the part of the purpose statement that relates to development, which is the second part of the purpose, enabling \u201Cthe use and development of the environment in a way that promotes the well-being of present and future generations.\u201D\u2014and, as I said before, \u201Cenvironment\u201D includes buildings and roads as well as animals, be they indigenous animals or introduced animals like sheep and cows. We think it\u2019s clearer now than it was under the existing statute that we are trying to promote development outcomes so that we don\u2019t have a recurrence of these ridiculously high land prices, and so that it doesn\u2019t cost the earth to consent infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022570f29d357154fcdae9806cc88b13a5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022570f29d357154fcdae9806cc88b13a5a\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It is a pleasure to speak on the Natural and Built Environment Bill. While I did spend some time on the Environment Committee on this, but not as much as others\u2014to my good fortune, I think!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister for the Environment is around clause 4, around the Treaty of Waitangi, where it says, \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties under this Act must give effect to the principles of [the Treaty of Waitangi].\u201D\u2014or \u201CTe Tiriti\u201D or whichever way you want to call it, and there are differences; there is one here. I\u2019d like to know why they chose that version and not the \u201Cthe Treaty of Waitangi\u201D\u2014the one that took primacy in 1840.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EFurther to that, where are the principles? There\u2019s no reference in that clause to the principles. What are they? Where are they listed? How will they work? We can\u2019t judge that unless we know what they are. I would suggest that that\u2019s going to make it pretty difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI do note, at the beginning of the original bill, it gives a definition, although it\u2019s not in the bill itself, of \u201Ctikanga\u201D. We heard in the Environment Committee last week, expert witness evidence on the seabed mining inquiry about such matters and the difficulties that they create, because, ultimately, good law is something that has to be able to be known\u2014it doesn\u2019t have to be known, but has to be able to be known\u2014and yet tikanga is not known; it\u2019s, essentially, secret knowledge. In a normal case of events\u2014and this is where it relates to this bill, Madam Chair\u2014when this bill becomes an Act and tikanga comes up in a hearing or in a consent process, it doesn\u2019t have the same process as it would if it was expert evidence, say, about environmental effects. So if we had a marine biologist, for example, giving evidence about the effects of potential seabed mining, for example, or it could be a wind farm and the effect on birds, where we have witness expert evidence that would come up from the applicant, and then those objecting to it, on the other side of the argument, could get their own expert witness and then we would have something to weigh up and a decision to be made. But with tikanga, that can\u2019t happen. Well, that\u2019s my understanding, but perhaps the Minister is going to enlighten us all, because it certainly had that legal expert very confused as to how that might work and the practicalities of it and also the fact that money changes hands to get a lot of these reports through. So I asked that witness\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9016c5c008c40068a8a5980e6067ee2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f50677d3f9b14f73b776cf0559f8a805\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes\u2014how he would deal with that, how that would be dealt with in the law. His response\u2014it was interesting, I think, and I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd6e7bfa168c4846884e34f430086c81\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260f7deca6ebf4088aefe2bb6d67aabed\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will. I\u2019m hoping that the Minister\u2019s listening, because I\u2019d like him to come back with an answer to this\u2014whether this is right or not. He said, \u201CWell, you simply make it of no value. If you can\u2019t test it, then it\u2019s bad law, and so therefore you have to make it of no value.\u201D So it could be admitted and used but it has no real value, because it can\u2019t be tested. So I really would like the Minister\u2019s view on that. So how\u2019s that going to work on a day-to-day basis when I make an application for a wind farm on a nice ridge line overlooking Auckland? Have they got some ridge lines in Auckland somewhere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8e6d21a67b642c0874bb646398d6250\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Bound to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220282151ed8b04d44b6c33c9c4d91016c\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Go and put some wind turbines up there, and the local residents complain or object, and I have some expert\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c1339dbc2cc4f01a8bfa737efcd0771\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Give them a gas turbine, Stuart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc89720ef57144bea66ecd963cc383de\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a gas turbine\u2014well, I might be doing that as well; the same thing. It would be more efficient, I suspect, in the long run. But how is that going to be weighed up with the principles of the Treaty and how\u2019s it going to be weighed up with tikanga? If I get someone to give evidence, who invokes tikanga and says it\u2019s worthwhile on the basis of that secret knowledge, can that be tested, and how can that be tested if it\u2019s secret knowledge? So I\u2019d really appreciate the Minister\u2019s answers to those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c81a042b9ee2487ebae5d5c82ccf59d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c81a042b9ee2487ebae5d5c82ccf59d5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Dealing with the first point the member raised, which was that clause 4 of the bill says that \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties under this Act must give effect to the principles of te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u201D, the term \u201Cte Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D is defined in the \u201CDefinitions\u201D section, in clause 7(1), and it is defined to mean \u201Cthe Treaty as defined in section 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975\u201D. I know\u2014because I had advice on this on the way through\u2014that definition refers to both versions of the Treaty. So it doesn\u2019t give preference to te reo version or the English version. It does as the Treaty of Waitangi Act does and makes reference to both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the \u201Cgive effect to the principles of\u201D the Treaty clause, that\u2019s broadly the same as the \u201Cgive effect to the principles of\u201D the Treaty clause in the Conservation Act. So that\u2019s not new. The wording is slightly different, but it\u2019s of similar effect. And it was recommended by the Randerson panel and it\u2019s previously been recommended by the Waitangi Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Waitangi Tribunal went quite a bit further. It\u2019s clear from some of their writing that they would have preferred a co-governance model for resource management, that we haven\u2019t pursued through this legislation, because the Government didn\u2019t agree that that was appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issue as to tikanga M\u0101ori, this is not a new concept; it is in the Resource Management Act (RMA). Is the definition the same? The definition is broadly similar. If the member\u2019s got specific questions about that, I can dig out the RMA to answer some further questions about that, but I haven\u2019t got the RMA definition right in front of me. But tikanga M\u0101ori is in the existing Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issues as to secret evidence that I think the member referred to, if whatever happened would be in relation to something like\u2014if there is a place known to local M\u0101ori on their piece of land that there is a burial site, they don\u2019t necessarily want archaeologists, if this is on public land or something, going and digging it up. So they might come and they might say to the authorities, \u201CLook, please listen to us as to where that burial site is. We know it\u2019s down there, but we don\u2019t want you to broadcast that.\u201D That would be up to the court to determine or the council to determine whether they thought that was fair. If they didn\u2019t think that was fair, they would obviously make that sort of thing public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut \u201Ctikanga M\u0101ori means M\u0101ori customary law, customary values, and customary practices\u201D. Irrespective of whether we had that definition in the law, the Supreme Court has recently found that tikanga is a branch of the customary law that does have a current place in New Zealand law. It obviously has a current place under the Resource Management Act because it\u2019s provided for. Really, the only way that this Parliament could have a different outcome in respect of tikanga, these days, would actually be to expressly exclude it by legislation to say that tikanga M\u0101ori cannot be taken into account in respect of these resource management decisions. That\u2019s not a position that this Government or, obviously, the prior Government that was in power for nine years\u2014the National-ACT Government never did that in respect of the RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002252e0b0e27c134b40a26c4904ea637861\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252e0b0e27c134b40a26c4904ea637861\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, thank you for being so fulsome in your explanations and for giving your time so generously to explain this bill to the committee, and to New Zealanders who might be listening: the Natural and Built Environment Bill, which we know you have heavily invested your time in, and also directed officials and others to heavily invest their time in, and, of course, the taxpayer\u2019s dollar to fund this development of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, before I come to some questions, I just want to make it clear what ACT believes the issue is to solve, with resource management law. We have environmental protection on one hand; we have urban development and infrastructure needed to deliver social and economic benefits to communities on the other. How do we balance our desire, our passion, as New Zealanders, to protect those special places, those special parts of the environment, those iconic places which feature in our tourist promotions\u2014the places where we go tramping and camping, those places where we go fishing and diving, and those unique wetlands, for example, where endangered birds like the k\u014Dtuku, the white heron, live? How do we balance up the need to protect these very, very unique and special places, with our need to occupy, develop, and use resources for our economic and social wellbeing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, Minister, unfortunately, ACT opposes this bill because we do not believe that it efficiently resolves the obvious clash between those two outcomes. And that\u2019s because it retains an integrated approach to land use, planning, and environmental management\u2014that was the original flaw of the Resource Management Act (RMA), rather than separating them into two separate regulatory systems: one to protect the special places, which we could do if we had a piece of legislation, such as an environmental protection Act that said where the special places are, how we know that they\u2019re special, and what the criteria are\u2014is it water quality, is it ecology, or is it a threatened species, is it a national park somewhere with our tallest mountain on it? Let everybody chip in and identify\u2014through consultation, through legislative process, and through select committee submission\u2014what the special places are that they want to protect and why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EYou might have to also identify where these might be on private land because, of course, if the Government intends to restrict the use of private land and say it\u2019s special to other people, they should have very, very, very good reasons as to why to do it, and be prepared to pay for the privilege, because that\u2019s not Government land, that\u2019s not public land, that\u2019s private land. But, of course, if the Government wants to protect public land and say that these are special places, then it should have the right to do that by the means of an environmental protection piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAlternatively, when it comes to urban development and infrastructure development, having carried out spatial planning activities\u2014which are pretty common across New Zealand, although not to the same level of detail; I mean, why would you do it to the same level of detail in Kait\u0101ia as you would for an urban metro like Auckland or Hamilton or Christchurch? It\u2019s absolutely vital that where that planning shows people will live and where business land is zoned for business activities\u2014manufacturing, production, and so on\u2014we need a piece of legislation that identifies how infrastructure corridors are protected, and then how that infrastructure should be delivered, funded, and financed, and which entities might have responsibilities in that sector, and, of course, when it comes to urban development, where people want to build in existing urban areas or in new urban areas, that there is legislation that provides for affordable housing development and also linked to the provision of services. Two pieces of legislation, Minister, that, if separated, would be a much more efficient way, in ACT\u2019s opinion, of giving effect to the laudable objectives expressed in this bill\u2014essentially to protect the environment, the special places, while making it easier to build and get on with delivering infrastructure that has social and economic wellbeing outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut, Minister, I just have a few questions for you now, because if we are intending to solve that problem this evening or tomorrow morning, if we continue\u2014[Bell rung] Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c25e62e7efe4baf9b97021ac6b9e480\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Simon Court. And can I actually ask the member to get to his questions. It\u2019s a wide-ranging debate, but you\u2019ve had five minutes of really wide-ranging speech. Please ask the Minister your questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a74e22f2056d48fcb882f13d48a68f52\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So the issues to solve appear to be complicated by the purpose clause\u2014in particular, the purpose of the Act is achieved in a way that enables use and development and promotes the wellbeing of not just present but future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, question one, Minister: how are we to value resources for future generations when we might want to use them now to build stuff? We might say there\u2019s a piece of land that somebody owns, whether publicly or privately, which might have quarry resources on it, valuable minerals, or rare-earth minerals that might be used for electronics or batteries or to help achieve a low-carbon future for some technology; how do we balance the needs of present generations against future generations, when it\u2019s the people who are here now, our children who are with us now, whose economic and social wellbeing we must surely give primacy to, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESecond question: te Oranga o te Taiao\u2014and I have been listening to the debate and I know you have answered some questions, Minister. Will you please describe what \u201Cinterconnectedness with all parts of the environment\u201D means? Because, if you think about electrons, if you think about physics, if you think about atoms or neutrons, they\u2019re all buzzing around, they\u2019re all connected. How does that help a decision maker\u2014either looking at a resource consent application or a judge looking at an appeal\u2014decide whether an applicant is upholding te Oranga o te Taiao? Should they have knowledge of physics and, potentially, advanced physics, or is this something that is intrinsic knowledge? And if it\u2019s intrinsic knowledge, Minister, that a judge or a decision maker will need, how do they get this knowledge? Is it absorbed, somehow, through life experience? Is it learnt at university? Are they born with it? Is it an ethnic thing? Minister, explain how on earth somebody is supposed to understand that as a decision maker? Because Ernest Rutherford said, Minister, \u201CIf you can\u2019t explain physics to a barman, it\u2019s not good physics.\u201D But if you could explain the interconnectedness of all parts of the environment to the House this evening, maybe it is good policy after all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I would like to get to the changes that this bill makes with regard to the Treaty of Waitangi obligations on all persons exercising functions and duties under the Act, which now requires, quite differently from the Resource Management Act, decision makers to give effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, whereas the RMA sought to have decision makers\u2014those exercising powers\u2014to have regard to the principles. That\u2019s quite different, because, Minister, in a reply that you\u2019ve kindly given to me in another portfolio area today, your transport portfolio, you outline what those principles are\u2014they\u2019re expressed by the courts and the Waitangi Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe principle of partnership: well, I mean, anyone who\u2019s been in business would appreciate how important it is to respect your partners in any business activity or undertaking in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe principle of mutual benefit: well, every deal has some kind of trade-off in it, Minister. There is not always a mutual benefit. There\u2019s not always an equivalent benefit. There\u2019s not always a balancing of benefits. Somebody is doing something next door to your land. The person who\u2019s receiving the effects of an activity, whether it\u2019s a house being built or a quarry being developed or a cell tower going up\u2014there\u2019s no mutual benefits for somebody who doesn\u2019t like the shading, doesn\u2019t like the noise, doesn\u2019t like the dust, and doesn\u2019t like looking at a cellphone tower. Then, of course, is the principle of active protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, would you please explain to us how on earth the interconnectedness of all parts of the environment is to be understood by decision makers? And how are decision makers\u2014those exercising powers and duties\u2014meant to give effect to the Treaty of Waitangi principles: partnership, mutual benefit, and the principle of active protection? Minister, if you could give us some examples, that would be a great start to the evening. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002208bce10627e741b8b2901359ec3fadf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208bce10627e741b8b2901359ec3fadf5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The first point I will respond to is the question as to whether you go for an integrated management approach\u2014which this Act continues\u2014or whether you have separate environmental protection legislation and separate development legislation. We did consider that, as did the Randerson panel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe first point I would make was that when the Resource Management Act was passed, it replaced the separate statute approach where you had the Town and Country Planning Act and you had the Water and Soil Conservation Act, and 27 other Acts. The Resource Management Act (RMA) repealed 28 Acts. Well, if the ACT Party want to go back to that separation of development from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022528786f24c824d9a9f071aa9b8ee54f2\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Two!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4bc2b3da1674f6a8feb8a405e7c5d65\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, two! It\u2019s going to be very simple under the ACT Party prescription. Very simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second point I would make is if the Parliament wanted to have separate environmental protection and development statutes, it doesn\u2019t resolve the underlying tension sometimes. What happens when a road is needed to go through a wetland\u2014and it sometimes happens? Auckland has to expand their roads\u2014there\u2019s nowhere to expand them\u2014into wetlands. So how does the separation of the development statute from the environmental protection avoid that contest? It can\u2019t\u2014it can\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s actually got to be resolved by principles as to how you resolve the tensions between those things. That\u2019s what this Act does. It says, you know, \u201CThere are some things that are very special that you shouldn\u2019t normally intrude into.\u201D A wetland could be an example of that if it was a really important wetland, but it then says, \u201COccasionally you have to have an exception.\u201D and it sets out principles as to when you can have an exception and therefore gives guidance to decision makers as to whether they should make an exception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat assessment cannot be avoided whether you have both of those things together in the same statute or whether you have them in two separate statutes. You can\u2019t plan for everything, and if the member wants shorter plans and shorter statutes, well, you can\u2019t resolve those tensions. Those tensions exist, and you have to set out principles to resolve those tensions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, the overall length of the statute is virtually identical to the RMA and the fast track, because fast track comes back into this and these two things\u2014the fast track and the RMA legislation\u2014are virtually the same. In fact, I asked officials to total that up for me. The RMA plus fast track is 992\u00A0pages. The Natural and Built Environment Act (NBEA) is 977.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb4249cade654ffb9921e1fadcf4cef5\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s a huge saving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227860301b22f54c95b2ef8da4edd49570\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I know. Well, I mean, it\u2019s a puerile argument if we\u2019re actually down to the number of pages. But if you are worried about the number of pages, have a look at the UK statute, that\u2019s much longer; have a look at the Australian statute, that\u2019s much longer. If that\u2019s your test, this is better. I don\u2019t think that is the right test. But if that is your test\u2014which I think is very superficial\u2014this is better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issue of current and future generations, we are trying to sustain the environment so that our children and grandchildren don\u2019t inherit a despoiled planet. That is no different to what is in the RMA; that principle is already in there. The member\u2014who\u2019s a member of the ACT Party\u2014was, for nine years, a member of the ACT-National Government. They didn\u2019t repeal that part of the RMA that said we should be trying to protect environmental values for future generations rather than use them all up for this generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s not to say that there are not some finite resources that ought to be used by the current generation. Of course there are. Quarries are a good example. We need quarries. Under the new legislation, those quarries will be better protected than they are under the old legislation, including from reverse sensitivity effects. Also, a regional spatial strategy under the Spatial Planning Act flowing through to an NBEA plan could say, \u201CWe need a quarry in this area. It\u2019s ridiculous that we\u2019re carting quarry for 300 kilometres when we could get it around the corner.\u201D So those sorts of things are actually facilitated by this new legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the member\u2019s question about the interconnectedness of the environment, the environment, and I\u2019ve previously covered this for earlier members\u2019 questions, is defined in the legislation to include the natural environment, people, communities; and the built environment, including roads and farms and quarries and, you know, all of the things that we have in our lives as well as\u2014it\u2019s so broad that the environment includes all of those aspects, as it must do; as it must do. The natural environment is a subset of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut in terms of the interconnectedness of the environment, of course we are. We\u2019re connected with the environment and the way in which we live our lives. I use roads every day. I live in a house. I drive in a car that has steel in it. The idea that you can have an environmental statue or that we would ever contemplate an environmental statute that didn\u2019t cater for the needs of people\u2014well, how ridiculous would that be? This statute doesn\u2019t make that mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00228fd4279e0e594c52b9680292ac88c6c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fd4279e0e594c52b9680292ac88c6c6\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220767700a6e184c0ea6b4c47f89d66a74\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about your car, Stewie!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211889c2644ee48f0a0645bb29fdd6d93\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, my car is made of steel as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281e759341ca646c78b9ac56040b1ab08\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251caa281bcd24bba8e0d8f1ea4d8b887\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s got rubber as well. A bit of plastic\u2014glass, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt is actually fantastic to see that the Minister has been woken up by the member from ACT, Simon Court, and got him quite active, actually, which is quite good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENow, to the point about the number of pages, all I would like\u2014I would like one more page at least, which had the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi in it, which they do not have. There\u2019s no principles. The Minister gave an explanation before which actually made things worse, because he said, \u201CWell, it all went along with what the Waitangi Tribunal\u2014they agree with it.\u201D Well, that\u2019s hardly a ringing endorsement. And then the Randerson review\u2014well, that was his own commissioned review. He\u2019s getting his own team to judge him, really, and I think that\u2019s not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EHe still hasn\u2019t answered for us: what are the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi? He listed everything else; they\u2019re all everywhere\u2014no principles for the Treaty. How can we have bill that does not\u2014that refers to some principles that are not included in the bill. So I\u2019d like to see that. He talked about the Supreme Court and tikanga. Well, that was a 3:2 decision, so it was hardly a ringing endorsement either. I think we want more details on that, the Minister, and I think you have not answered the questions that I gave you earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s also said that it was all in the Resource Management Act (RMA) anyway. Well, that\u2019s why we\u2019ve got the problems with it: nobody likes the RMA\u2014except for the legal profession, perhaps, and even they don\u2019t like it because they have clients that want to get stuff done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ELook, we don\u2019t want certainty of outcome from these pieces of legislation; we want certainty of process. And, actually, what the problem is with the RMA is there is no certainty of the process. It\u2019s a long-winded, overly bureaucratic exercise that could be carried out with much less bureaucracy than we have today. That\u2019s one of the greatest sources of issues that come in around councils that I get in through my office every week. It\u2019s about the RMA, it\u2019s about the extra costs and the inefficiencies in it, and the waste, quite frankly. It is a waste, and, yet, we\u2019ve got no improvement; in fact, this is going to make it so much worse than we have at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m looking forward to\u2014the Minister\u2019s taking advice there, so I\u2019m looking forward to having that list, and my pen is waiting, ready to note down those principles. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225b61c7dfa0ee421ebf847d7448732afb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b61c7dfa0ee421ebf847d7448732afb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There are two forms of Treaty clause\u2014or two main groups of Treaty clauses across the statute book.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne lists the way in which the Treaty is to be given effect to\u2014saying, essentially, \u201Cthe way in which this legislation gives effect to the Treaty is by doing that, that, that, and that\u201D, and it\u2019s effectively code and a list. The other is to refer to general obligations to take into account or to give effect to the principles of the Treaty. When that latter form is used, and it is the most common form of the statute book, the practice is not to define it; it is to rely on the principles that have been developed by the court. Were we to move to another articulation of that\u2014really, this just changes from \u201Cto take into account\u201D to \u201Cto give effect to\u201D. That\u2019s the change of this, compared with the Resource Management Act. It doesn\u2019t change the underlying principles, and it would be very, very\u2014in my opinion\u2014difficult to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the member\u2019s question about tikanga M\u0101ori, I believe I\u2019ve already addressed that in the earlier answer. You know, it\u2019s defined to mean \u201CM\u0101ori customary law, customary values, and customary practices\u201D, and I covered the Supreme Court jurisprudence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI take the member\u2019s point to it being a split division in the Supreme Court, but I don\u2019t have a particular difficulty with the idea that customary law can include M\u0101ori customary law. In our common law jurisprudence in New Zealand, customary law from the English tradition was always possible to be part of the law, and customary law, whether it is M\u0101ori customary law or English customary law that we inherited, can always be modified by statute, and, in many ways, is by this litigation. But I can accept the principle that there is the possibility of residual law that is not overridden by the Resource Management Act or, in the future, by the Natural and Built Environment Bill that still has a place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022230464b09721469eb54ad9e48173d7fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022230464b09721469eb54ad9e48173d7fe\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, an introductory comment and then a series of questions, obviously in Part 1. Look, the good people of T\u0101maki already find the Resource Management Act (RMA) a huge mess, and I don\u2019t think anyone in the committee here would disagree that the current RMA is a massive, massive mess. It could be best described as slowing everything down and I think of everyone from neighbours, friends, locals, constituents, developers across T\u0101maki\u2014they find the RMA majorly problematic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe issue I have is that these 900-plus pages are going to make things much worse. In fact, from where the current RMA stifles things, this one is going to stop progress in its entirety. And one of the things that concerns me is how few New Zealanders know what the Government is doing in this space. As I say, this new Natural and Built Environment Bill, along with its secondary cousin, is going to basically stop development in New Zealand, and the primary reason for that is it is introducing enormous uncertainty into the system and, in particular, into the legal system. I understand, and the Minister can correct me on this, but even the Chief Justice has come out and indicated in a submission, I think, to the Environment Committee that this is going to grind the courts down because there are so many concepts in here that no one knows what they mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be really clear; I want to be very clear: new concepts, ideas, and principles are welcome, but when it comes to law, they need to be clearly spelt out. And yep, we can, if you want to take on, you know, the fancifulness of the American model and others to allow the courts to decide\u2014well, that takes time and money. The Minister should know already, particularly in Auckland and certainly in my electorate, that it already takes too long to build things, let alone what this is going to do. So I can\u2019t say it\u2019s a pleasure to rise to speak on this, because trying to lift 900-plus pages is quite a work-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the Act: the first purpose, Minister, is to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao. My translation of \u201CTaiao\u201D can be land or it can also be \u201Cworld\u201D. Why I\u2019m asking that is: does this bill need to take in the concepts of the world? Does the world or do the people in the world get to have a say? So, obviously, we are all interconnected, but words are important. And he\u2019s been stressing the importance of law and the word. So the purpose of this Act is to \u201Cuphold the health of the world\u201D, is one interpretation. In other words, are events overseas going to affect what decisions are being made here in New Zealand? Then, ultimately, who gets to decide what is healthy or not? What are the qualifications? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThis is the second set of questions for judges, because as I go through clause 3, particularly subclause 3, on what te Oranga o te Taiao means\u2014the healthy environment, the relationships in the environment, and so forth, the interconnectedness\u2014I\u2019m wondering whether we need theologians and philosophers to be our judges. I say it somewhat tongue in cheek, because I\u2019m both of them. But as I read these words, I\u2019m thinking of concepts like Gaiaism, animism, pantheism, panentheism\u2014for those who are interested in these things\u2014vitalism. So many of the concepts that are already being articulated here are quite actually philosophical, and, to some of us, are quite theological. So at one level it\u2019s a facetious question, Minister, but there\u2019s a serious edge to it: are judges going to be required to be theologians to try and work through what are, effectively, spiritual concepts? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThen the next section is in clause 6 around decision-making processes. I know others have already raised the place of tikanga. Now, I want to be really clear and on the record: there is a place for tikanga. There are different customary approaches, but my question is: how is this going to operate in the process of law? The Minister rightly pointed out English common law and so forth, but it\u2019s written down. It\u2019s in black and white. It\u2019s clearly defined. My experience dealing with tikanga is that it can be amazing, but tikanga is remarkably flexible when it\u2019s wanted to be, and then it\u2019s enormously rigid when it also suits. How are we going to navigate this as a country and where is it written? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think even in my own electorate there are multiple iwi, let alone hap\u016B, and yet your bill here says that we have to look not only to be responsible to each iwi, but to every hap\u016B. Again, that\u2019s not a problem\u2014to want to engage them\u2014it\u2019s just how do we do this, Minister, in a way that\u2019s going to be timely and helpful? Locals already know the difficulties there are to deal with iwi\u2014and I want to stress again from a matter of process, not in terms of the respect and engagement, but it\u2019s incredibly time-consuming. And the ultimate question is: where is this tikanga written down? Because I fear the Minister and perhaps even the Supreme Court are conflating the notions of law\u2014that written law that we\u2019re used to is the same as tikanga, and the two are not the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022be5df715c4834712b912db037a798154\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be5df715c4834712b912db037a798154\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E For a start, I do feel the Opposition are flailing a little bit here around this idea that we are imposing complexity on the system. This system is being reformed because of the complexity of the current system. Under the current system, do members know how long it normally takes to make a plan change? Ten years\u201410 years. I was speaking to someone from the hort sector the other day and I asked her what she was doing and she says, \u201CWhat I\u2019m always doing, I\u2019m in a constant unending melee of plan changes.\u201D It never finishes. Even within one region, it never ends. It goes on and on and on for 10 years, by which time they\u2019re starting again. It\u2019s ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat happens under the new system? Well, the number of plans goes down from over 100 Resource Management Act (RMA) plans to 16\u201416. You can\u2019t tell me that once we go through this transition that 16 plans are going to be harder to put together than 100. I\u2019m also confident that if we do the first ones well, we\u2019ll avoid the mistakes of the RMA, which has plans with unnecessary difference. There are some necessary differences, but at the moment there\u2019s a lot of unnecessary difference\u2014they\u2019re all laid out differently, they have unnecessary differences within the same region. The recession plane might be 33 degrees or 35 degrees or 30\u2014I\u2019m sure the regions will be able to agree on 32.5 degrees or whatever the recession plane is at a boundary. So there\u2019ll be a number of plans\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eac7e41bece422697da1b5729320337\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How can they agree?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283ca37d26a114684a1cef104733cdde3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t have to\u2014they don\u2019t have to. But I reckon common sense will prevail because, you know what? I trust local politicians to want good outcomes for their people. They are so frustrated with the system. Who would want to be a mayor or a councillor in a council where you can\u2019t effect change through your planning instrument except over 10 years? Goodness me. Our processes around here are complex enough and long enough, but 10 years to change a\u2014what does that go to under the new system? Four years. Four years from whoa to go, and you will have a regional plan. Four years. And that\u2019s partly because we\u2019re adopting the process that, in fairness, came from the National-ACT Party\u2014Rodney Hide, for putting together the Auckland Plan. Because the Auckland Plan bringing together the plans of all of the separate\u2014Mount Albert, you know, the central Auckland city, other Auckland\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90e329357224f4388fac6a7431f4f93\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Waitakere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c8904c3983f467e96a273d8dbd0c453\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Waitakere\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a113469ef137409a817858191fa10557\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Manukau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228112799124fc44a1afbc34b0a9d2a303\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Manukau\u2014all of those district plans were put together into one plan and they did that through an independent hearings panel. It was chaired by an Environment Court judge, in that case, David Kirkpatrick, and they did it. They did it and it was efficient, and you\u2019ve got a better plan in Auckland than you would other\u2014it\u2019s not perfect, it\u2019s not perfect, but it\u2019s better. So we go down from 100 plans to 16 plans, and instead of taking 10 years, they take four. Now, that\u2019s efficiency. That is efficiency, and that\u2019s what the country needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, in respect of the benefits to users, the cost-benefit analysis\u2014the supplementary analysis report says that there\u2019s a number of benefits. There\u2019s going to be an increase in housing affordability of between $146 million and $834 million for the mid-range benefit per annum. It\u2019s quite significant. It will flow through to housing costs. In respect of consenting processes, these become more efficient and the benefits to that are felt by the people who apply for resource consents or the people that buy services like roads and sewerage and footpaths and electricity and telecommunications and all of the other things that flow through to the price of a house. Those consenting cost savings are estimated for being between $210 million and $430 million\u2014that\u2019s just the mid-range; it\u2019s not the top range, I\u2019m being relatively conservative here. So between $200 million and $430 million per annum cost saving; that\u2019s cost saving. It\u2019s real cash. And in addition to that, the savings of time. If you\u2019re a developer and you have to hold land for an extra two or three years while you sort these things out, those costs are astronomical, they\u2019re much higher than the process costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo there will be more permitted activities, we have fewer plans, and there is a duty under this legislation for that to be the outcome. In terms of the issues in respect of the Treaty issues that the National Party went back to, again\u2014you know, because these take into account provisions in the RMA that didn\u2019t work, we have had all of these bespoke arrangements up and down the country through Treaty settlements, the most grunty of which were agreed by the National-ACT Government for the Waikato River Authority and the Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Planning Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e75334479dc54e43b511f697d067dc8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e75334479dc54e43b511f697d067dc8a\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. On Subpart 1, page 37, Minister, I\u2019d like to ask you: you\u2019ve made a change to clause 5(6AB) around the habitat of trout and salmon. We had a number of concerns around the fishermen on this clause. Can I ask you to perhaps explain to those fishermen\u2014so the piece that\u2019s been crossed out in your Supplementary Order Paper says \u201CThe habitat of trout and salmon is protected, so far as consistent with the protection of indigenous species.\u201D, and in clause 5(6AB) that you\u2019ve replaced it with \u201CThe habitat of trout and salmon are protected, as far as this is consistent with the protection of the habitat of indigenous freshwater species.\u201D I just wanted to ask you a question, really, around the piece that says \u201Cas far as this is consistent with\u201D, and wondering if you could speak to the fishermen about just allaying their concerns on that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9ecd26efc374cd4843a0948dd6f9a0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9ecd26efc374cd4843a0948dd6f9a0b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member for that question. Well, the Environment Committee said, \u201CLook, this is not all about indigenous. We need to protect the habitat of trout and salmon.\u201D It\u2019s good; the existing Resource Management Act does that. One of the reasons why submitters wanted that is that a lot of the environmental advocacy that goes on up and down the country is actually by a fantastic membership-based organisation, Fish and Game Councils. They are regional organisations, they have a regional structure, they do have a head office in Wellington, but, actually, the head office is subservient to the regional bodies, not the other way round, although sometimes to them it doesn\u2019t feel that way, I know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve got members up and down the country who are passionately interested in protecting their access to trout and salmon, and they\u2019re a force for good. They try and protect the habitat of trout and salmon against degradation. So they came along and said, \u201CLook, you know, we really find it harder to do our business if there\u2019s not a reference into the statute saying that the protection of a habitat of trout and salmon is important.\u201D, and so the select committee put that into the statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) corrects the grammar. As it was at select committee, it said \u201CThe habitat of trout and salmon is protected.\u201D Well, that was a rookie error by someone, but \u201CThe habitat of trout and salmon are protected\u201D\u2014you could have different habitat of salmon to the habitat of trout, therefore there is more than one habitat, therefore they \u201Care protected\u201D rather than \u201Cis protected\u201D. So that\u2019s the first change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThen it said \u201Cso far as consistent with the protection of indigenous species\u201D, and the words \u201Cthis is\u201D were missed out. So the words \u201Cas far as consistent\u201D have been changed to \u201Cas far as this is consistent\u201D. So the member can see, I think, that these are very technical changes. They do make the wording of it better, easier for people to understand, and that\u2019s actually the nature of a lot of the amendments in the SOP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECan I thank the officials for all of the enormous work they\u2019ve done here. I do think that, for Parliament, I know there are people who say we\u2019re rushing it, this legislation, after all of the multiple reports in the three years that we\u2019ve taken to land it. We\u2019ve landed it within three years, because that\u2019s all you have within a parliamentary term. I\u2019m of the view that we do need a four-year parliamentary term, and this is an example. But within that three-year term, we have put a lot of pressure on officials as well as civil society to land it, and so I\u2019m very pleased with the effort that Government officials, Parliamentary Counsel Office and the like, have put in to make this legislation as good as it can be. And that is an example of how they\u2019ve scrubbed up the legislation and improved it in minor ways since it came back from the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022b870e6ce5a014695bbfac799649e065f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b870e6ce5a014695bbfac799649e065f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Oh look, the fascinating insight to the thinking of the Minister behind the bill. He\u2019s demonstrated it is possible to balance the needs of indigenous creatures\u2014the banded k\u014Dkopu, the giant k\u014Dkopu, who occupy the same habitat, potentially, as those colonising fish, trout, and salmon. So there is hope for \u201Ctangata trout\u201D and \u201Ctangata k\u014Dkopu\u201D in our future. That\u2019s wonderful!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut it doesn\u2019t resolve some of the other tensions, Minister. Because you mentioned in your reply to one of my earlier questions that we do need to resolve the issue of how to build a motorway across a wetland. Well, of course we do, but the technology is available to do that. Either we move the wetland, we divert the wetland, we build the bridge on piers over the wetland; many, many ways to resolve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut if you don\u2019t have a series of criteria that identify the special place in the first place, then you\u2019re still going to be stuck in litigation between the applicants who want to build the infrastructure, the regulators who have to make a decision about whether they should be allowed to even apply for a consent, and, of course, all of those activists who will insist that nothing should ever be done to damage the three bulrushes in a paddock which currently passes as definition of a wetland under the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management. So Minister, we don\u2019t understand how these tensions are going to be resolved. It\u2019s not clear from this bill or from the Supplementary Order Papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, you mentioned that plans take 10 years to resolve. Well, I thought I should check that, because that\u2019s not what we heard in the evidence that was given to the Environment Committee. If you just look at what the New Zealand Planning Institute suggests for a complex, complete plan change: six years. For a private plan change, between one and three years\u2014depending if it\u2019s complex. So people might ask, \u201CWhy would you need a private plan change if council does all the planning?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, it\u2019s because sometimes an individual might want to use their land in a way that a council planner doesn\u2019t agree with. They might say, \u201CI\u2019ve got a novel use for my land. Instead of a farm or a paddock, instead of growing, I don\u2019t know, some bulrushes or some cows, I might want to build a distribution centre and I might want to connect my distribution centre or warehouse to the closest motorway so I can deliver goods to my customers in a timely way.\u201D So that is why private plan changes\u2014and also for housing developments and so on\u2014are required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s because central government and local government\u2014even though we\u2019d like to trust our councils and their planning functions, whether it\u2019s under the Resource Management Act or some other kind of Act\u2014don\u2019t have all the answers; they don\u2019t know. That\u2019s why ACT proposes something quite different, which is a resource management reform focused on property rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo rather than having to ask for permission\u2014to beg for the ability to get consents\u2014or to hope, fingers crossed, that the thing I want to do is some kind of permitted activity, ACT would say, \u201CLook, you should be able to use your land for however you wish, and the only people you should have to satisfy about mitigating the effects of your development are your neighbours, whether it\u2019s noise or traffic or dust or whatever it is, if it\u2019s a temporary effect or a long-term effect of a big extractive activity like quarrying, and of course if you\u2019re making discharges to the receiving environment\u2014in other words, if it\u2019s something washing off your property or leaving your property in a pipe that\u2019s going to the receiving environment\u2014then of course you must pay attention to the effect on the commons and mitigate those to the bare minimum.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut Minister, I also just want to come back to what you described as the Waitangi Tribunal insisting on a 50:50 partnership on the regional planning bodies\u2014but you stated that had been rejected by Cabinet, and instead this bill proposes for regional planning that there would only be two iwi M\u0101ori representatives required out of a potential six. But Minister, isn\u2019t it correct that a judge might decide\u2014because that\u2019s the minimum required\u2014that, in fact, on appeal, if iwi M\u0101ori feel they weren\u2019t represented on a planning tribunal, that, in fact, they could require a planning tribunal to have 50:50 iwi representation along with any local government representative? [Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cfe7c62c9e34469beb044a43c9bf659\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fc6f919c0b245d7b5326f83b9ee9a40\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c3de42a57ae4dbd84ea02b043f63efa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Simon Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221369a94028044096a1b754a7ef913c51\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll let the Minister answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a987f32302034fa1b3638baf1b3fcf72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a987f32302034fa1b3638baf1b3fcf72\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Firstly, the member says, \u201CWell, we need to identify the places of national importance so that there\u2019s certainty in the system.\u201D I agree with that, and I agree that we also need to make sure that we\u2019re not having the bar so low for what\u2019s of importance that we gum the system up by calling everything important. And there have been instances in New Zealand where landscapes, for example, have been identified all to be of natural importance around something. The example that\u2019s most often used is around Queenstown, where the planning code in respect of significant landscapes essentially makes it very, very complicated to bring a new transmission line into Queenstown, even though you need it. So I agree that the system needs to identify those places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe statute covers that off by making reference to this having to be done\u2014and in clause 3A(h), it says, \u201Cthe attributes of places of national importance and highly vulnerable bio\u2010diversity areas must be recognised \u2026 (see subpart 5 of Part 6)\u201D. And then if you go to the index, you\u2019ll see that that takes you to clause 427C on page 291 of the bill that says that they must be identified. So, you know, that will flow through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the property rights argument, I would make two points. The private property right to the use of land has never enabled you to do anything on your land. In a residential area, you can\u2019t put in a freezing works, you can\u2019t build a tannery\u2014and I don\u2019t understand the member to be in favour of that\u2014so you\u2019ve got to have planning rules that actually say what you can do on the land. You can\u2019t be so simple as to say, \u201COh look, just because the property rights owner owns the fee simple, then that fee simple right includes the right to build anything on the land.\u201D That has never been the law in New Zealand\u2014under the Town and Country Planning Act, under the Resource Management Act, or under this. So the idea that you can just rely upon nuisance or the rights of neighbours is just incorrect, because we have codes in New Zealand which say: well, this area is basically for residential and allied services, this area here is mainly commercial. In respect of modern ways of living in commercial as opposed to industrial, we often merge the two together and have retail and businesses and things in some residential\u2014in the same area. But it has always been the right of the planning system to control those issues. In respect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d9e8a892dae40f4b4fd9211e9449039\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Well that\u2019s all that we\u2019re supposed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b3cbd823ad4761a170d2c0c5471261\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would also make the point that I find the ACT Party\u2019s protestations on these issues simplistic, given that they\u2019ve been so opposed to the intensification work that we\u2019ve done in New Zealand to bring down the effect of cost of land prices. [Interruption] Well, I see Chris Bishop with a smile on his face there laconically saying, \u201CWell, you might be right there, Minister.\u201D Because it\u2019s hard to reconcile the ACT Party voting against some of the intensification provisions that we as a Government brought forward in order to make housing more affordable by enabling more, and that more enabling planning provision to enable well-serviced landmarks\u2014so there\u2019s plenty of opportunities to build a house or an apartment, whatever it is, to bring down land prices; it\u2019s implemented through the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFinal point on the member\u2019s question about \u201CCan we have a takeover of M\u0101ori on regional planning committees?\u201D It was dressed up in slightly different language, but that was, effectively, the question. Now, the answer is no, because in order to, in part, avoid all of the complications that we have through all of these bespoke Treaty settlements continuing to proliferate throughout the country, we\u2019ve said, \u201CLook, there should be some M\u0101ori participation on the regional planning committee.\u201D We did think, \u201CWell, should that be one? Should it be half and half?\u201D We didn\u2019t think it should be half and half. We thought that one could be a bit lonely so we actually came up with the number two, but it will be up to the region to decide. And if the region can\u2019t decide, it\u2019s set by the Local Government Commission. It\u2019s not set by the courts; it\u2019s set by the Local Government Commission. I can\u2019t conceive of a situation where they would say that, you know, councils don\u2019t have the majority voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the member\u2019s quite right to say that the smallest of these regional planning committees is likely to be in the Southland region where there are four councils, including the regional council. If you have two M\u0101ori participants on that regional planning committee, there will be two M\u0101ori participants and four council representatives. The councillors might say, \u201CWe want two each.\u201D Invercargill might say, \u201CMost of the people live here; we need two.\u201D The regional council might convince people down there that they need a couple of voices for the regional council. That\u2019s for the region to set out. We don\u2019t need to predetermine\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022237358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212eec85bd1e844a18a0a92769dc8734e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I call on Tama Potaka.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00225121e45691f74009a8df21ea2de354f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225121e45691f74009a8df21ea2de354f3\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou. I\u2019d like to echo the concerns of my knowledgeable, erudite colleagues sitting on this side of the Chamber, especially our infrastructure sentinel here, young Chris Bishop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the Act, te Oranga o te Taiao\u2014I would call it the description rather than the definition that\u2019s been attached to it\u2014is very, very curious; curious. The phrase, for someone who\u2019s been brought up in tikanga and kawa and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori for the last 47 years\u201447\u00BD actually\u2014and a lawyer managing a Resource Management Act (RMA) team, te Oranga o te Taiao is a completely new phrase to me. It makes me very curious\u2014never heard of it before. What I have heard of is mauri and Te Mana o te Wai and other concepts like kaitiakitanga, which have all given rise to an evolving jurisprudence within the courts and some workability and some commonality, some universality, across different RMA practitioners and lawyers. Those interpretations have been built over decades, but now we\u2019ve been launched with something called te Oranga o te Taiao, which, once you take it to its extremes, means that none of us is here any more. We\u2019re on a spaceship to Mars! Te Oranga o te Taiao, at its extreme, means that there are no people on the planet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe introduction of this phrase to legislation, whilst it may have been well meaning, creates a lot of amorphous and unusual and uncertain circumstances. In fact, it gives me the impression of putting a pounamu on a white horse. The depth and the breadth of that phrase is something that I don\u2019t think has been very well manicured in this proposed legislation. And, to that end, I think we need to get some context and guidance of what te Oranga o te Taiao means in terms of the health and wellbeing models that are very well known in te ao M\u0101ori and how those have informed, if at all, the meaning of te Oranga o te Taiao. Can I start with the Atua Matua model of Dr Ihirangi Heke, or the Tapa Wh\u0101 model? Taha hinengaro taha wairua taha wh\u0101nau taha tinana [The intellectual aspect, the spiritual aspect, the family aspect, and the physical/body aspect] of Sir Mason Durie? Or was it the Te Wheke model of Rangim\u0101rie Rose Pere, or the cultural health index?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e69bdb70a294439932dba70b7b2c8ec\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: All the models.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c82a693173141eb9637803fc46286ff\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Or was it all of the models? Then it\u2019s none of the models. Te Oranga o te Taiao must have been informed by something or some sort of kaupapa M\u0101ori model that helps us better locate ourselves in this discussion, and it certainly would help the judiciary to locate themselves in any interpretation of this phrase. What is the context or what is the guidance we get from M\u0101ori health models? That\u2019s number one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENumber two is that the hierarchy or the weighting across the various subclauses, (a) through (e), is, again, very uncertain, particularly when they lean heavily into the protection dynamic of our planning system rather than a more balanced and fair and objective protection and development twin objectives, which is what I understood the planning legislation sought to achieve. So, again, the hierarchy or the weighting across each of those subclauses is something that we would like to get a little bit more colour around, because, at the moment, it looks very short-sighted and possibly myopic to say that it\u2019s 20 percent for each of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EFinally, further on in Part 1\u2014we\u2019re only up to clause 3\u2014there is a mention of kawa within clause 5 and clause 6, and I would like to know, given that it is not defined in this legislation, what the Minister\u2019s interpretation or definition of kawa actually is, because I do not know what it is, looking through the 1,270 pages of this document. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5022b7152924942a5c00f196a3e54a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5022b7152924942a5c00f196a3e54a6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve already, on a number of occasions\u2014at great length, actually\u2014gone through the whole of the definition of te Oranga o te Taiao, which is a phrase which is defined in the ways in which I have previously explained, and I won\u2019t go into that again. I explained the history of it\u2014te Mana o te Taiao. I explained how it had come through the Randerson panel. I explained how the select committee inquiry had come out with te Oranga o te Taiao on the basis of submissions, and I explained to the House how that had been tightened up in the latest select committee consideration of the bill that went out for public submissions. So I am not going to repeat that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will, in respect of system outcomes, because there is some concern, obviously, from members of the Opposition that this is going to tie up the system and we\u2019re not going to be able to do anything. Well, the outcomes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8e5ea1ccec6415b8c7bda89680456f0\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: The Chief Justice is concerned too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022049f6d56ac52496da25c566c2869d9a0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, actually, the Chief Justice\u2019s principal concern was that the way in which the Environment Court was constituted was subject to the Treaty clause. Interestingly, the Environment Court, which is constituted under the Resource Management Act, is actually constituted subject to the Treaty clause. No one thought of that at the time\u2014or, if they did, I\u2019m not aware that they did\u2014and no one thought of the effect that changing the Treaty clause would have in emphasising the giving effect to the principles of the Treaty applying to all decision makers, including the Environment Court, constituted under the Natural and Built Environment Act. The Chief Justice was correct that that wasn\u2019t the intention of the legislation, and the select committee corrected that so as to make it clear that, although the Environment Court, when it is considering decisions made by people under the new Act, has to give effect to the principles of the Treaty, the court itself is not constituted pursuant to those principles; it just has to apply the law, which includes those principles. That was the main point of the Chief Justice\u2019s submission, and I\u2019m very glad she made it, because otherwise that mistake could have been made, because no one, officials and I myself and others, had thought of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the outcomes, returning to what Simon Court was referring to earlier, system outcomes include, at clause 5(7), that there be \u201Cwell-functioning urban and rural areas\u201D\u2014which includes the \u201Cuse and development of land for a variety of activities, including for housing, business use, and primary production \u2026 development capacity, in relation to housing and business land, being available well ahead of expected demand\u201D\u2014it\u2019s a current problem that we have in the system that we\u2019re fixing through this legislation\u2014and that we have \u201Cadaptable and resilient urban forms\u201D. I\u2019m sure that if there are other points that members want to reinforce with me, I can take a later call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002292f26fed0d1b43edaa78488825a10d00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292f26fed0d1b43edaa78488825a10d00\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to come back to the Treaty clause, clause 4. The Minister has made reference on several occasions to the wording, which is one of the most significant changes to the existing legislative framework, versus this new methodology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo under the existing Resource Management Act, the Treaty clause there says\u2014I don\u2019t have the exact wording in front of me, but essentially\u2014that people exercising powers and performing functions under that piece of legislation must have regard to the Treaty. The new clause 4 says that \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties under this Act must give effect to the principles of te Tiriti\u201D. So that is a very significant difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister has alluded to the fact that there is similar wording in the Conservation Act, but the primary difference between the Conservation Act, and, of course, this piece of legislation is that the Conservation Act refers to and is essentially responsible for the conservation estate, rather than this piece of legislation, which gives much broader powers and purview to private property, to developments of any sort, and, indeed, to the entire footprint of the nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo notwithstanding the matters that the Minister has already raised, I\u2019m interested to know, potentially after the dinner break maybe when he comes back into the chair, if he could give us some insight as to why this is such a significant change. It was made for\u2014I would assume what he thinks is\u2014good reason, good effect. But it was the subject of a lot of discussion at select committee, an enormous amount of submitters\u2019 time and energy, and, again, it goes to creating what is, effectively, further legal uncertainty in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister: what was the rationale\u2014and it may be simply that, \u201COh, well it was part of the Randerson report.\u201D Well, we\u2019ve heard that on several occasions in the debate this afternoon in the committee of the whole House that \u201Cit was just Randerson.\u201D I\u2019m not sure that just because it was in the Randerson report that is nearly sufficient enough. Randerson and his committee are not Moses and carving tablets and bringing them down from upon high, but that seems to be the way that much of it has been interpreted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236dccdc424b1478c994cc9df71ac5020\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Sacrilege!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d560cceef0314d02b9893a8c9cb5d1d7\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think Mr Court might agree with me on that. But it\u2019s an area where there is a lot of public concern; a lot of submitters made reference to this particular clause. The impact and potential for significant change is enormous, and then when we asked officials to define the principles, we were told by officials that, actually, there is no formal definition of the principles; that they are merely evolving\u2014evolving. \u201CThe principles of the Treaty are evolving.\u201D That provides very little confidence or certainty to anybody wishing to rely on this piece of legislation. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022cafb4f3b818b49cdb3bdebd7708cc5f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cafb4f3b818b49cdb3bdebd7708cc5f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the chair. I will resume the chair at 7.30 p.m. after the dinner break. Ka kite an\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e38922863660477a9f141ae1b8e1e493\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e38922863660477a9f141ae1b8e1e493\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In response to comments made by the Hon Scott Simpson just before the dinner break, and now actually just after the dinner break\u2014sorry, about the football result\u2014but on to what you were talking about before the dinner break, which was the Treaty clause and the change. I wanted to note, of course the Resource Management Act (RMA) has a Treaty clause at the moment in section 8, and that test is to take into account\u2014and it still talks about the principles, which is the same language as clause 4, which has this higher test, and that higher test is \u201Cmust give effect to\u201D. The Hon Scott Simpson was asking before the dinner break about where this had come from. He made some interesting comments around the Randerson report in the committee. Of course, where it has come from is a long gestation or the long being\u2014not even the gestation\u2014of the Resource Management and the feeling from many people who have to use the RMA that it wasn\u2019t strong enough in this clause and that it wasn\u2019t strong enough for M\u0101ori. That has been a sentiment that has come through in submissions and in various consultation documents for a long time. So it\u2019s a fairly simple answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00227baebcb1980544feaa407fb0c76ae648\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227baebcb1980544feaa407fb0c76ae648\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Just to pick up the point around, well, what Scott Simpson had raised earlier: does the Minister appreciate, and regardless\u2014well, sorry. First and foremost, of course there are people who want stronger Treaty provisions, and that\u2019s perfectly understandable. But does the Minister understand it is an enormous step legally if not morally to move from \u201Cconsideration\u201D to \u201Ceffect\u201D\u2014like, from \u201Ctake account\u201D, sorry, to \u201Cto effect\u201D? This is an enormous change. This is not just a simple change of nomenclature in terms of particular principles\u2014any principles for that matter. I\u2019m sure a human rights lawyer would understand, as I look to my left, that to say \u201Cto take into consideration\u201D or \u201Cto take thought of\u201D human rights and principles is one thing. To \u201Cgive effect to\u201D\u2014that\u2019s an enormous, enormous change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second is that the Minister, earlier in the day, had been talking about how we\u2019d moved from 100 plans to 16 and how the rewrite of this Part 1, in particular\u2014but the whole 900-plus pages is going to make an enormous impact. And I suppose the question to the Minister in the chair is: does she really believe that the change of font and format in the presentation of a law is somehow going to outweigh or, rather, make things so efficient and outweigh the enormous effects of 900-plus pages of, effectively, new concepts untested in law? To put it another way: does she really think that all these enormous changes, as I say, untested judicially\u2014that the Chief Justice has warned the select committee of just the enormous workloads going to be created\u2014does she think, as Minister Parker indicated, that simply changing the font and format and reducing the number of plans is going to outweigh that judicial uncertainty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002267d399b522bf4cdab1eee751e573ced3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267d399b522bf4cdab1eee751e573ced3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E To the first point, am I aware of the difference between \u201Cgive effect to\u201D and \u201Ctake into account\u201D? Yes. And to the second point that it\u2019s 900 pages of brand-new concepts that are going to be tested by the courts, absolutely not. Some of the concepts in here are different, and there will, of course, be some litigation around those, but a lot of the framework of the bill is similar to what the Resource Management Act is. There are some fundamental changes, but a lot of it\u2014you still have resource consents, you still have plan-making, and a lot of the provisions of the bill are to set out very clearly what they are. In terms of the re-order of the Act, that\u2019s to make it easier for the users.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00229a2fc90703424eefa4e808ec2a50e521\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a2fc90703424eefa4e808ec2a50e521\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and, again, hopefully, it\u2019s a short retort. Look, I appreciate, I say to the Minister, that my earlier comment of 900 pages\u2014it\u2019s not all completely new\u2014was a slightly facetious comment at one level. However, does she also appreciate the very fact that Part 1, clause 3, inserts a whole lot of new concepts that by the nature of our legal system sit on top of everything else? In other words, even existing elements from the current Resource Management Act (RMA), which is brought into this proposed new bill\u2014these are now all going to be governed by the preceding or the initial clauses such as clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe first purpose is \u201Cto uphold te Oranga o te Taiao.\u201D Now, that\u2019s going to cover everything that follows. In other words, I say to the Minister, I appreciate, again, that it\u2019s a debating point, of course. But it doesn\u2019t matter how much existing RMA reform comes into this new tome\u2014one that would make Thomas Aquinas weep\u2014the very new purposes that are put at the very front of the bill, including that one around te Oranga o te Taiao, are going to affect how it is implemented. That in itself, I\u2019m sure, is undebatable. It is a completely new concept in law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not a new concept in itself, but in law, and, as I pointed out in an earlier contribution, even the word \u201Ctaiao\u201D can be interpreted between the word \u201Cland\u201D, which makes it much more domestic, and the word \u201Cworld\u201D. So is this legislation meaning to take the health of the world into effect? Is Greta Thunberg going to turn up tomorrow and opine on what our RMA should be? Again, it\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4b26ca2374f4b7681977036af5f0bcb\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s been arrested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c559206a691f4ad0b074f15f4f141f1c\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s been arrested\u2014that\u2019s true. But, again, I\u2019m being slightly facetious to illustrate the point, but it is unclear, and until it\u2019s tested in law\u2014so, again, the fundamental point is an appreciation of these new concepts put at the front of the bill will govern everything that follows, including any existing legislation brought across.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022167c83ac922d41ecb0ea1bad69c7e66d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022167c83ac922d41ecb0ea1bad69c7e66d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. I understand that there has been a lot of discussion about clause 3, \u201CPurpose of this Act\u201D, this evening already, and, of course, \u201Cto uphold te Oranga o te Taiao.\u201D I would just restate\u2014I think Minister Parker said this before\u2014that there was a lot of discussion and submissions on this point. I don\u2019t disagree that putting \u201Cte Oranga o te Taiao\u201D here in the purpose is significant. It is a change from the Resource Management Act, and no doubt the courts will have something to say about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m very pleased with the response that we see here in the amended bill, which both defines \u201Cte Oranga o te Taiao\u201D, and new clause 3A sets out the means for achieving the purpose of the Act. I think they will both be very helpful mechanisms to be clear about what it is that we are wanting this bill to achieve, which is to protect the health of the natural environment and to enable the use and development of that environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e35319b5bb3e47a6b772c5ce6d5dcbb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e35319b5bb3e47a6b772c5ce6d5dcbb9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I just advise members that a different member asking the same question does not constitute new material. I\u2019ve been watching from my office and this debate has been going for some time, so we will be looking for new material in the very near future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002204795ee4f40544809127f0bf119d3e1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204795ee4f40544809127f0bf119d3e1a\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and welcome, Associate Minister for the Environment Minister Rachel Brooking, who is, in fact, one of the architects of this bill from her previous life on the Randerson panel as a resource management law expert. So we couldn\u2019t ask for a more competent and experienced Minister in the chair tonight than the Hon Rachel Brooking, which actually creates a bit of a dilemma for me because, as I\u2019ve mentioned to the Minister before, when I was a civil engineer trying to get consents for projects so we could deliver bridges and roads and build landfills, the Minister may well have been one of those resource management lawyers that I would have asked for advice from and, in fact, have asked to help get a resource consent under the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s interpretation about clause 4, \u201CTiriti o Waitangi\u201D, and the difference between the Resource Management Act\u2019s \u201Chave regard to\u201D the Treaty and the Natural and Built Environment Bill\u2019s \u201Cgive effect to\u201D the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. So that\u2019s any decision maker\u2014\u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, could you please explain for the committee and for the people at home\u2014relying on your previous experience and your familiarity with the Randerson report and the legislation that\u2019s come out of it\u2014what is the practical difference between \u201Chaving regard to\u201D as a decision maker or when exercising powers and performing functions and duties, and \u201Cgiving effect to\u201D Te Tiriti, and particularly with respect to an answer that Minister Parker provided before, where he referred to, which is in terms of the Conservation Act, the following principles of the Treaty of Waitangi as expressed by the courts and the Waitangi Tribunal: the principle of partnership, the principle of mutual benefit, and the principle of active protection? If the Minister could explain how those principles apply in giving effect to the Treaty under this legislation as opposed to having regard to the Treaty under the Resource Management Act\u2014thank you, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac77d318ef854fd9b77ab9cac1879a7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac77d318ef854fd9b77ab9cac1879a7f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E This clause 4 is one of the very pivotal clauses in this massive statute, and it\u2019s the reason that on this side of the House we want to give it the attention that I think it deserves, because this is a very significant change in policy direction from the existing legislative environment. The term \u201Cmust give effect to\u201D is a very significant change from the existing Resource Management Act, which says \u201Ctake account of\u201D. Now, in the King Salmon case, the court decided that\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CIn the view of the Courts and the Waitangi Tribunal, the Treaty principles are not set\u201D, but in the King Salmon case, the court actually said that \u201C \u2018give effect to\u2019 simply means \u2018implement\u2019 \u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, if that is the decision of the court in King Salmon, the question I have for the Minister is why wouldn\u2019t that term \u201Cimplement\u201D be used\u2014the Act must implement the principles of the Treaty? Why was that word not used, rather than the words \u201Cgive effect to\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThen, further, it\u2019s been the decision of the Waitangi Tribunal, but when considering issues relating to the principles of the Treaty, they\u2019ve said that \u201CIn the view of the Courts and the Waitangi Tribunal, Treaty principles are not set in stone. They are constantly evolving as the Treaty is applied to particular issues and new situations.\u201D Then we were advised in the select committee by officials that there are usually multiple ways of applying a principle and that different contexts will require different approaches. So it\u2019s that uncertainty that is at the crux of our concern about this particular clause and the provision in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWhat I think New Zealanders want is a degree of certainty about the legislative environment, they want to know what the words mean, and they want to understand what the impacts of those words will be on their development, on their business, on their neighbourhood, on their home\u2014all those sorts of things. So a couple of questions to the Minister: why not use the word \u201Cimplement\u201D in clause 4, instead of \u201Cgive effect to\u201D, as has been defined in King Salmon, and then how can certainty be given when the principles, we are told, both by the Waitangi Tribunal and courts and by our advisers on the committee, are evolving and will apply differently in different circumstances? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf3c600f8af844a1a945f3362c55dca7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf3c600f8af844a1a945f3362c55dca7\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just in the vein of the discussions that have been flowing through the vessels of both Mr Court and Mr Simpson, two issues in relation to clause 4, the first one being that the way that it\u2019s worded says, \u201Cgive effect to the principles of te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u201D I just wanted to get some clarity whether or not there is the same interpretation given to that as section 4 of the Conservation Act, which refers to the Treaty of Waitangi, or if there\u2019s something different\u2014if we\u2019re incorporating the contra proferentem rule or something of that nature\u2014so we have some clarity around that. That would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that section 4 of the Conservation Act, which this nearly mirrors, was subject to the significant Supreme Court decision and coupled with a relationship agreement, with a specific example in the Hauraki Gulf and Motutapu Island and the Ng\u0101i Tai v Department of Conservation case. What emanated from that decision and that set of relationships was actually quite a very compromised manner in which the parties tried to do things, but, essentially, could not get things done together\u2014the conservation department and the tribe involved in that particular decision. The concern that I have is that, again, we\u2019ve created something in writing but there\u2019s no real legislative guidance as to how that would be implemented. So two questions. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002228822075a0164b24a5a173541f5b528f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228822075a0164b24a5a173541f5b528f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m answering those three questions sort of together, in terms of from Simon Court, the Hon Scott Simpson, and the last speaker there, Tama Potaka. Some of the questions, I think both from Simon Court and Scott Simpson, were around, you know, what does this change mean in clause 4? Of course, it is a strengthening, and that was a very deliberate decision, and there\u2019s also other mechanisms in the bill to help strengthen what was in the Resource Management Act (RMA). So the other changes go to the people who will be sitting on the regional planning committees, the strengthening of the Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe, and, of course, the creation of the National M\u0101ori Entity as a monitoring device. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo those different measures support the strengthening of the Treaty clause. And the way the RMA clause is written\u2014for many years, there were no cases whereby a decision was made that something could or couldn\u2019t happen because of the Treaty principles or, in fact, the stronger words in the RMA at section 6(e) or section 7(a), kaitiakitanga. So those are all differences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe Hon Scott Simpson asked why not use the word \u201Cimplement\u201D. Of course, as the last speaker just said, the Conservation Act does use these words, \u201Cgive effect to\u201D, and that is a known phrase. I acknowledge the Ng\u0101i Tai decision and what that means in terms of the Conservation Act. But it is also the point that we want it to be stronger, and this is a stronger clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of the definition, Te Titiri is defined, and it refers back to section 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. So it\u2019s certainly not meant to be any change there in the substantive meaning of what the Treaty is; it\u2019s just to reflect the language that is currently more commonplace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002203decbd06f984b8e8969d1ec8864f760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203decbd06f984b8e8969d1ec8864f760\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00224e949d4552c84bf0b53af9504ab88788\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e949d4552c84bf0b53af9504ab88788\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I want to turn now to another significant clause in Part 1, which relates to clause 5 \u201CSystem outcomes\u201D. It\u2019s in this clause where the whole hierarchy of outcomes is defined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, at the Environment Committee, we heard, again, a lot of submissions on the prioritisation of outcomes, whether there should be a hierarchy of outcomes, and, if so, what should be the determining factors as to that hierarchy, and which of those outcomes should have precedence over another where there was conflict.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my questions to the Minister in the chair relate to all of clause 5. It\u2019s quite extensive in its provision. It runs quite clearly through a range of issues that are to be considered in terms of system outcomes. But what we still don\u2019t have is the kind of clarity, I think, that people will be looking for in terms of what the issues that are going to be given higher degree of precedence when making decisions as opposed to those that won\u2019t be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, if you could enlighten the committee of the whole House as to the Government\u2019s thinking on clause 5, why clause 5 has been adopted in the manner that it has, and why the hierarchy of system outcomes as set out in clause 5 has been established and what the principle and rationale behind that is or was, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022af8cbf1cdbb649f895917a1ca29aa69b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af8cbf1cdbb649f895917a1ca29aa69b\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00227844fbf9fd8f4e5292b2af670c0c98c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227844fbf9fd8f4e5292b2af670c0c98c9\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I welcome Rachel Brooking to the chair, the Minister. It\u2019s great to get her opinion on a few things. Particularly, I would like to turn to clause 5(9), \u201CIn order to promote the well-being of both present and future generations, highly productive land is protected\u2014(a) for use in land-based primary production; and (b) from inappropriate subdivision, use, and development.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWhat is \u201Cinappropriate\u201D, in that sense? Somebody\u2019s appropriate subdivision on a piece of land is someone else\u2019s inappropriate subdivision on that land. How is that actually defined? I think I\u2019d be really interested to hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also go to clause 6A, \u201CProcedural principles\u201D, while I\u2019m on my feet. Under clause\u00A06A(1), \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties under this Act must take all practical steps\u2014(a) to use timely, efficient, consistent, and cost-effective processes that are proportionate to the functions, powers, and duties being exercised [and] performed; and (b) to promote collaboration between or among local authorities, communities, and M\u0101ori on their common resource management issues.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENow, I don\u2019t understand that last bit, \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D. It\u2019s not local M\u0101ori; it\u2019s M\u0101ori. Is it the local iwi or the local hap\u016B? Because if we go back to clause 4, we have to take account of the Treaty or Te Tiriti. The Treaty was signed by chiefs of hap\u016B, so surely it would be a hap\u016B that would need to be referenced in this bill, but it\u2019s not; it\u2019s M\u0101ori. That could be just someone who identifies as M\u0101ori. How is that defined? I don\u2019t understand that. Local communities, or if the words \u201Clocal M\u0101ori\u201D might have been there, that might make sense. But to have just \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D I don\u2019t think is helpful. Is that just a drafting error or is \u201Clocal authorities\u201D meant to be \u201Clocal authorities, local communities, and local M\u0101ori on their common resource management issues\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019d be really helpful if we could get some enlightenment on that, because it\u2019s a really important piece of legislation and to get all these terms all mixed up, I think, is really quite unhelpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc811cf56793403fa0bbbc08d88d42bf\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: No consistency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b76cf0dd63324f438abef93f53ccb6c9\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no consistency at all. So I look forward to hearing some enlightenment on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00221ce4e6a86e81418087074d594041b1d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ce4e6a86e81418087074d594041b1d0\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Firstly, I just want to open by offering a perspective on the way that I understand M\u0101ori have been treated by local government, by central government, when it comes to developments around infrastructure, whether it\u2019s waste-water treatment plants being built in front of a marae in the Manukau Harbour in Auckland or Governments taking M\u0101ori-owned land under the Public Works Act as an easier option than negotiating with other private landowners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe heard at the Environment Committee a number of concerns raised by representatives of iwi, hap\u016B, and other M\u0101ori-based organisations about that concern and how they wanted to make sure that they were not treated unfairly when it came to resource management decisions, decisions about land use, planning, and so on in the future, and that their rights be protected in any legislation that reformed the Resource Management Act. The ACT Party would absolutely support their private property rights and their right to be able to negotiate fairly with the Crown or local government or any other public entity that seeks to acquire land in order to deliver infrastructure. So we can understand there\u2019s some really powerful historical motivations that probably feel quite visceral and current to iwi, hap\u016B, in particular, and individual marae who have suffered from that kind of treatment at the hands of Government in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut what I don\u2019t understand, and what the ACT Party cannot comprehend, is how those wrongs have then been translated into what appear to be general principles for decision makers to give effect to the Treaty of Waitangi, and then to take account of a concept known as m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, which, if you look at te reo M\u0101ori dictionary, simply describes it as \u201Cknowledge\u201D. If you look at other places where m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori is defined, it\u2019s defined as \u201Ctraditional M\u0101ori knowledge\u201D. In other places it also includes tikanga, kawa, and kaitiakitanga. So what does it actually mean, this term \u201Cm\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhen I asked the select committee, firstly, to seek advice from officials\u2014can we please have some advice about what a definition might mean, what this term might refer to?\u2014that was declined by the committee, by the majority. Then when I proposed to include a definition of it in the bill, that was also declined by the majority of the committee. Of course, that\u2019s parliamentary democracy. That\u2019s what we do. So because the term hasn\u2019t been defined in the bill, and because it creates an uncertainty about what the effect is, requiring decision makers in terms of clause 5(10), how are we to treat this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, the ACT Party has proposed, in a Supplementary Order Paper, that we could remove some of the confusion this causes by simply removing references in the bill to \u201Cm\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D. Because in the absence of a definition, and with so many explanations for it crowding out what could be a sensible definition like simply the word \u201Cknowledge\u201D, ACT believes we should remove it entirely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut I also want to acknowledge that there is a place for indigenous knowledge about plants, about natural systems. I mean, imagine, for example, if we had an oral history available to us to describe what it was like, the events of that night that an enormous tsunami hit the East Coast of the North Island in about 1400 AD and engulfed the communities, those double-hulled waka sailing craft builders and all of those other people with that traditional knowledge of celestial navigation who came to New Zealand from the Pacific Islands. Imagine if we had an oral tradition that we could compare against the geological record of where that tsunami reached in the hills near Te Puke, so we could better understand what it was that happened that day and maybe inform us about where we should and shouldn\u2019t be building communities presently. If that\u2019s what m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori means, then it would be very helpful to have a definition of that type in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut I want to give you an example about how confusing it is, so I hope the Chair will extend to me the privilege of an additional few minutes, because I\u2019ve done some research\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002290ead46e0a6640ddb9c4e31c6cac27ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290ead46e0a6640ddb9c4e31c6cac27ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time is complete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002204f88fd8d15e4b4d9d5c6a889b55a626\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204f88fd8d15e4b4d9d5c6a889b55a626\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Trying to answer a number of those questions. If we go back to the Hon Scott Simpson about the system outcomes in clause 5, there are a large number of them, but I would, again, refer back to new clause 3A, \u201CMeans for achieving purpose of Act\u201D. So the system outcomes are to be provided for at the national level through the national planning framework, the NPF, and at the regional level and plans. Of course, then we also have new clause 5A, \u201CProviding for outcomes\u201D, and some useful clauses at clause 6 as well, that say things like decision making \u201Cnot to prefer a use because it is either new or existing use when considering how the outcomes are to be best achieved\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo those outcomes will not always be in agreement with each other. Where they are in agreement with each other, then both should be achieved. If there does have to be some sort of hierarchy, then that needs to be provided for, consistent with the purpose of the Act, which provides some, and then in the NPF and in the plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere were some other comments there about the use of the word \u201Cinappropriate\u201D. That\u2019s a term that\u2019s come from the Resource Management Act. Also about the use of the terms \u201Chap\u016B\u201D and \u201Ciwi\u201D versus \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D\u2014you will find that it is purposefully used throughout the bill where it refers to \u201Ciwi\u201D and \u201Chap\u016B\u201D. I\u2019m not sure if Scott Simpson is saying that a Government bill should not refer to iwi at all and only to hap\u016B, because that is who the Treaty was signed with, which he said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc0473710b274c37a75854a06e02c20a\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: It was Stuart Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb9cd57f15364a1887c90a12eea95005\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that that would\u2014oh, did I say Scott Simpson? Sorry, I meant Stuart Smith. I was looking at Stuart Smith. My apologies. I know that you\u2019re very different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo, as I was saying, \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D is used for the more general roles which aren\u2019t linked to that ancestral land, say, in clause 6(2) versus clause 6A(1)(b), which Stuart Smith referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of m\u0101tauranga, I think it\u2019s not that difficult, really, when we look at the clause that the member was referring to, for that to be taken into account. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s something that will cause problems in interpreting it. And the member talked about how his definitions include knowledge, but it might be wider, and he was starting to tell some stories. Both of those things are good, and they were interesting stories, Mr Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESimon Court was also talking about private property rights, and, I have to say, I\u2019m a little bit confused on this issue, because, of course, many iwi and hap\u016B and wh\u0101nau don\u2019t have the private property land rights any more, for historical reasons, and that\u2019s some of the reason why we now have these Treaty clauses in our legislation: to right those wrongs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022faebaf3e65c14c9699e69c87e1e03bd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faebaf3e65c14c9699e69c87e1e03bd9\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228cd570c23bf146688f9e637e4ddee28f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a90b0aed5b7840c8ac77e6346b0a4813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a90b0aed5b7840c8ac77e6346b0a4813\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendments to clauses 3A, 5, and 7 on Supplementary Order Paper 389 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292c972e61f8846ed8e1a97132915953d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022774a8723c81248c58bc65fe906db41d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022774a8723c81248c58bc65fe906db41d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendments to Part 1 of Supplementary Order Paper 389, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 392, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c035e29cdbde412caaca47b2b7e3c7f5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002212d2bba7d25749af96b3d6759346858e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212d2bba7d25749af96b3d6759346858e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 389 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bfb2a4ced84c4277a09cd6855eae2e03\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8c868a306ba45b6b8c76ba4a21bdc6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8c868a306ba45b6b8c76ba4a21bdc6c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendment to the definition of \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D in clause 7(1) set out on Supplementary Order Paper 386 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ad71f334ff094084a402344bd88f466c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0e1998183764f24b23a47d0364a8d15\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bf94937d7734a6d84d8578e81e7df17\u0022\u003EPart 2  Duties, responsibilities, and restrictions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e32e0ea11e5a4f03b49517e925c9c885\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e32e0ea11e5a4f03b49517e925c9c885\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2, the debate on clauses 13 to 30, \u201CDuties, responsibilities, and restrictions\u201D. The question is that Part\u00A02 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed81564270314d49b49e8317550a9531\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed81564270314d49b49e8317550a9531\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I wanted to particularly take a look at clause 13 and the ethic of stewardship, which I didn\u2019t see was defined therein. The notion that we will sustain the health and wellbeing of the natural environment for the benefit of both present and future generations\u2014I\u2019m pretty keen to understand from the Minister how many generations we are talking about here. When we start going out three, four, six generations, the decisions on what we can do as planners or as decision makers today aren\u2019t necessarily well informed on what the situation is going to be like in four or five generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe other issue that emerges from that is: do we weight it equally across the number of generations, which we\u2019re yet to know about\u2014we might get an answer to that\u2014or is there a staggered weighting across the future and present generations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EFinal question: what happens in a situation when the ethic of stewardship as espoused here actually cuts across the mana and the kawa\u2014ill-defined in the previous part\u2014and there is an inconsistency between that? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002237a91df32d73410bbe74583ad9714fc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237a91df32d73410bbe74583ad9714fc9\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m wanting to just ask the Minister a couple of questions about clause 15, the duty to avoid unreasonable noise. Clause 15(1) says \u201CThis section applies to (a) every person who occupies land (including any premises and any coastal marine area); and (b) every person carrying out an activity in, on, or under a water body or the coastal marine area.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENoise can be a particularly problematic environmental hazard, and I know that this particular clause attempts to provide some guidance and limits around noise emissions and the standards that may be applied to them, in some kind of sensible framework. My particular question relates to one that is in clause 15(4)\u2014\u201CThis section applies to overflying by aircraft, but only to the extent that noise emission controls for airports, including those in the coastal marine area, are [not] prescribed by a framework rule or by a plan rule.\u201D I\u2019ve had representations from a number of people in the \u014Ch\u0101riu electorate who have been concerned about the excessive noise from changed flying patterns that have meant that the good people of \u014Ch\u0101riu are now being inflicted with aircraft noise that is causing them concern and angst. So my question to the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec2e78962f0f4628b4418e64a8a6273b\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: If only the local MP did something about it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224604489a18da43b2a7bbc58d48518b89\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if only! That\u2019s quite right. If only! But I\u2019m convinced that there will be a new MP shortly and that that new MP will almost certainly take up the cudgel on behalf of the people of \u014Ch\u0101riu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022009904cbf20c4814bedf72ae8d39da7b\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Get \u014Ch\u0101riu back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234b4ac3b18424abf93e654469e1f281e\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Get \u014Ch\u0101riu back on track. So my question relates to this clause about overflying by aircraft, and if the Minister could give us some enlightenment as to this provision, its rationale, and how actually it is going to be applied in practical terms, in a practical sense. What will be the impact? And will the good people of \u014Ch\u0101riu be protected by clause 15(4) of the Natural and Built Environment Bill. If so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3fa7e8ae47640d9a35fb8cc14c3cf2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3fa7e8ae47640d9a35fb8cc14c3cf2f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Just in answer to those two questions, clause 15\u2014the duty to avoid unreasonable noise\u2014is, of course, very similar to section 16 of the Resource Management Act (RMA), but also merged with section 9 of the RMA, so really the Act applies to the aircraft issue that the Hon Scott Simpson just said; so the same framework there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of Tama Potaka\u2019s questions about the ethic of stewardship, of course, that is found currently in section 7(aa) of the RMA. And to ask about how many future generations, I think the point here is not just to be thinking about tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002288931b1ccf4e438d87081cd3b88db678\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288931b1ccf4e438d87081cd3b88db678\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and can I congratulate the Minister in the chair. It is great to have the expertise of the Hon Rachel Brooking in the House during the committee stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EA question on clause 15 also, \u201CDuty to avoid unreasonable noise\u201D. The Minister will be very aware, from her other portfolios, in terms of the importance of the Hauraki Gulf and a recent study by the Hauraki Gulf Forum by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research, which highlighted the value of the gulf is between $40 billion to $100 billion and that we do not invest adequately in protecting it. The forum also released a study last year about the impacts of underwater noise on marine species and the racket created by boats, particularly in areas around Kawau Island, but also around the Goat Island Marine Reserve at night, which suggests there were potentially illegal activities that may have been happening there. But the noise of boats was enough to drown out sound that marine species needed to communicate with each other\u2014particular fish, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo does the Minister contemplate that the national planning framework might provide some guidance in areas like the Hauraki Gulf to ensure that our marine life are not exposed to levels of unreasonable noise which can disrupt their behaviour and reduce their ability to communicate and reduce healthy functioning under the water? We may not be aware of that noise\u2014jet skis certainly\u2014but is that potentially a matter which this clause 15 could be used for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223b2849121d624958be3277a7de6fc20d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b2849121d624958be3277a7de6fc20d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised that that is a potential, and acknowledge that the member is concerned about the Hauraki Gulf, which is, of course, so important to the whole of Aotearoa, but it wouldn\u2019t be in the first national planning framework, so it would have to be more work into that fair matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7c5fe83f0c4477080503f289b45ae7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7c5fe83f0c4477080503f289b45ae7f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, I just want to draw your attention to clause 13\u2014Part 2\u2014\u201CEnvironmental responsibility\u201D. It\u2019s got very laudable, aspirational content in clause 13(1): \u201CConsistently with the ethic of stewardship, every person has a responsibility to protect and sustain the health and well-being of the natural environment for the benefit of all [both] present and future [generations], including as required by section 14\u201D\u2014duty to avoid, remedy, mitigate, offset, and so on. And that responsibility referred to in subsection (1) is not, of itself, enforceable against any person, and no person is liable to another person for a breach of that responsibility to protect and sustain the health and wellbeing of the natural environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, could you please explain for the committee, for people listening, for the record, for the Hansard, for an enduring description of what is the purpose of 13(1) and 13(2), why is this in the bill if it creates a \u201Cnice-to-have\u201D\u2014a vibe\u2014but is not enforceable against any person for a breach of any responsibility to sustain and protect the health and wellbeing of the natural environment? Minister, why is it in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f399ddcfed2a43bd95fd1a562cc6efac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f399ddcfed2a43bd95fd1a562cc6efac\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve just got a question for the Minister around Subpart 3, clause 26 on page 79, that talks about \u201CCertain existing uses in relation to land may continue\u201D, and really wanted to clarify for those people who are watching this tonight. It basically says, \u201CA person may use land in a way that contravenes a plan rule administered by a territorial authority if (a) the use was lawfully established (i) before the rule became operative; or (ii) before the proposed plan was notified; or (iii) by way of a designation;\u201D and that the adverse effects are actually the same or similar in character as to before. So I really just wanted to get some surety and some clarification for people that currently their private property right use is protected under this new piece of legislation, given that nothing changes in the way that they\u2019re operating it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00229b8251ae81c34fb993ec4d38c598be5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b8251ae81c34fb993ec4d38c598be5e\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to talk about clause 21, \u201CRestrictions relating to water\u201D. This is very concerning, actually. Clause\u00A021(1): \u201CA person must not carry out the following activities in relation to water in a manner that contravenes a framework rule or a plan rule administered by a regional council\u201D. So: taking, using, damming, or diverting any open coastal water. And in (b): taking or using any heat or energy from any open coastal water. Does that include putting beer in the water to cool it down? Because that\u2019s taking energy out of the water, and so it\u2019s a serious question: is that actually the case? Because people can use heat-exchanging devices in the water. So it says \u201Cheat\u201D; does that mean it could cool the water but not heat it? Or is it taking heat out of the water and not cooling it? So I\u2019ll leave that with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00224df90ea868164ed4aec41ad0e6d0ad92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224df90ea868164ed4aec41ad0e6d0ad92\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just give that Minister a moment; she\u2019s getting advice. I want to ask the Minister a question about clause 14, the \u201CDuty to avoid, minimise, remedy, offset, or compensate for adverse effects\u201D. In fact, one remarkable thing about this bill, Minister, is that despite all of the concerns that were raised by various environmental groups during the hearings on this bill, which I remember you attended for some time in your capacity as a member before you became a Minister, many, many environmental groups interested in protection of the environment above all else were very concerned about the concept of offsetting or compensation for adverse effects. So it\u2019s actually heartening to see that there are some good concepts that have flowed through into the bill that would allow the likes of infrastructure developers, for example, or housing developers, to carry out some work on some land where there might be some natural value of some kind. I mean, it could be a wetland in terms of the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management which, I understand, defines a permanently damp part of a paddock, whether that\u2019s three bulrushes in a 10-square-metre part of the paddock or whatever that is\u2014if that\u2019s to be cleared through earthworks, or disturbed, then there\u2019s an opportunity for offsetting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo would the Minister please describe for the committee and for the record, as well as, hopefully, responding to my question about clause 13 on environmental responsibility, how does the Minister see offsetting? Would the Minister be able to give an example about where, say, disturbance or removal of a wetland or some other kind of natural feature in order to build infrastructure could potentially be offset by building another somewhere else, maybe a better one, which, of course, is quite common. I mean, when I worked in the waste industry building landfills, we used to build fantastic engineered stormwater ponds incorporating all types of species of sedge and rushes, creating serpentine water-flow systems so the water slowed down, dropped its sediment, and provided a habitat for all kinds of native fish species: the banded k\u014Dkopu, the giant k\u014Dkopu, shags\u2014I\u2019m afraid I don\u2019t know te reo M\u0101ori name for that bird\u2014and eel, of course, or tuna. So, Minister, does this clause 14 allow for wetlands to be removed so infrastructure could be built and a new wetland built somewhere else to offset? And what does compensation mean? And Minister, if you could just respond to my question about environmental responsibility and what\u2019s the purpose of that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222888498d411a48fa90b67dad0158e318\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222888498d411a48fa90b67dad0158e318\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. So\u2014jumping around a wee bit here\u2014Simon Court was asking about clause 13 and why it\u2019s not enforceable. The point of this clause is to give an overarching responsibility, and then it\u2019s supported by the more specific obligations that are elsewhere in the bill. In terms of that last question around offsetting, I mean, I\u2019ll say briefly that, of course, there is a schedule around offsetting\u2014that is not in this part of the bill. Going to Stuart Smith\u2019s question about beer in the river in clause 21, at clause 6A in Part 1, of course, there is a principle of proportionality, so I think he need not worry about his beer. Then Barbara Kuriger was asking about existing uses. The current Resource Management Act has existing-use provisions as well, and these are similar but they do enable some changes to those rights in a narrow set of circumstances, which are set out in that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022cca19e96d30f4cd388e21545d451faf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cca19e96d30f4cd388e21545d451faf5\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to move on a bit further into the nitty-gritty of Part 2, and, in particular, reference to Part\u00A02A, and specifically clauses 30A, 30B, 30C, 30D, 30E, 30F, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296d27a6f479f44aa8c2d7875005883a4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just reminding the member, though, that there is actually a separate debate on Part 2A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273139e0ff70b43b1aca894c2d63cf754\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: On Part 2A? Ah, OK. Well, in that case, I wasn\u2019t aware that the\u2014I thought that Part 2 was going to be completely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a9c046148d44061bdd9c700e86e24eb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a pleasant surprise for the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce5f4348343e44c299087c68459d63f4\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9732bc12799412fbe5a3d6e86a99518\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9732bc12799412fbe5a3d6e86a99518\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 389 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002208d99d58b9bb437f8d3d7eea14c87456\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d68a34cbe2c54979b22ec3252b943b13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d68a34cbe2c54979b22ec3252b943b13\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. It\u2019s really just to get some clarification from you in the Chair. Part 2A has some subparts as well. Is it your intention to take all of Part 2A or are you going to take it by subpart?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224cd3b056343740dc8d57cf0c43c74503\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cd3b056343740dc8d57cf0c43c74503\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No. It will be all Part 2A, so everything that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221177a02122314baba269965bcaae2358\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Including the subparts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022937809b98fe74ab888d0cb410b61b9e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014comes under that section; yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022db46dc4e7fe04ca9b2406165a662d992\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002250f5bae6ae7b48478911ac8818c70d7f\u0022\u003EPart 2A  Exercise of functions, powers, and duties under this Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b21c19e38b144510ad69382f2a956843\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b21c19e38b144510ad69382f2a956843\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2A. This is the debate on clauses 30A to 30ZZM. The question is that Part 2A stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00223b8679291383451fbaaee81137bb025b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b8679291383451fbaaee81137bb025b\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, they say patience is a virtue, so we have arrived eventually. As I indicated previously\u2014and erroneously\u2014under a previous part, I do want to spend a few minutes just teasing out clauses 30A through to about 30F, I think. These clauses relate specifically to the functions and powers of the Minister for the Environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, it goes without saying that for a piece of legislation of this length, breadth, and depth, that the role of Minister for the Environment is going to be very significant in terms of the day-to-day functional operation of this entire statute\u2014not only the natural and built environment statute but also the spatial planning statute, and then eventually the adaptation piece, which we have yet to see. But in this Part 2A, we see that the Minister for the Environment is granted extraordinary powers to be involved at a very intimate and intricate level in almost every single decision-making process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThat is part of the framework of the legislation. Particularly, for instance, in clause\u00A030B, where the \u201CMinister for Environment may investigate and make recommendations in respect of local authorities and regional planning committees\u201D, and then there is a series of specific instances cited in clause 30B. Clause 30C relates to the \u201CMinister for Environment may appoint substitute for local authority\u201D\u2014again, extensive powers in that area. In clause 30D, the \u201CMinister for Environment may direct preparation of plan change or variation\u201D\u2014again, an opportunity to be intimately involved in the process, the detail, and the work. Clause 30E: \u201CMinisters may direct that review of a plan be undertaken\u201D, so even when a plan has been made and established and set in place, the Minister may at his or her discretion instruct a review be undertaken. Clause 30F gives the Minister for the Environment the ability to \u201Cdirect other action that may be taken\u201D\u2014again, some wide and extensive powers there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo what I guess I\u2019m getting at with the reference to all these particular clauses is that the particular Minister of the day is going to have enormous influence and power to intervene, in a way that may be helpful but similarly may be completely unhelpful. And what concerns me most of all is the potential for a Minister\u2014any given Minister of any particular political flavour, colour, or hue\u2014to bring to this legislation their own political and eco-political agenda in a way that means that they can influence unduly the process that this legislation seeks to put in place. So my question, really, to the Minister in the chair is what guarantees, what assurances, what commitments can she make on behalf of the current Government that these very extensive powers that have been assigned and delegated to the particular Minister for the Environment of the day are going to give certainty, are going to give confidence to New Zealanders who want to use this legislation? How are they going to know that, for instance, in some Government department, this current Government\u2014I mean, we\u2019ve had multiple Ministers in some ministries; three, four, five Ministers in some of those\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f684949689642c79c7a516285db42ec\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Minister of Transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022811075414111472798a9f4faf46f847b\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Minister of Transport\u2019s a good one\u2014how many Ministers of Transport have they had in a relatively short period of time? What would happen, what would be the practical implications of a merry-go-round of Ministers\u2014a merry-go-round of Ministers of the sort that we\u2019ve seen in other portfolios, if that applied to the Minister for the Environment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227335d93e6b0e4e81997b2b39730a17e0\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Resource management issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264b4182b42db40ac8cb109ed4762dc16\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is a resource management issue. My colleague Simeon Brown makes a very good point. So extensive, wide-ranging, and enormous power given to the Minister for the Environment. Some might say that we have a steady hand in that portfolio at the moment, but that\u2019s not always necessarily going to be the case. I can think back to Marian Hobbs, I think, who at one stage was the Minister for the Environment in a previous Labour administration\u2014I would not have wanted her, for instance, to have the ability to have the powers and influence that are going to be extended under this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb7639f76b6f4929ba5e61c25620f9dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb7639f76b6f4929ba5e61c25620f9dc\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I will make a brief reply to this issue, and then I think I will swap out of the chair. Yes, because we were just talking about the safe pair of hands\u2014the Hon Scott Simpson was saying\u2014that we have in our current Minister for the Environment, the Hon David Parker, who has just returned to the Chamber. And\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228764f57c4f4649b3993f95737ab459a8\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think it\u2019s proper to mention the presence or otherwise of a Minister or a member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568e6537e66240eb892e33e86195fe5c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I can say he\u2019s in the Chamber? Apologies for that. So the question is around what are the protections, that a Minister won\u2019t go rogue with these powers. Of course, some of these clauses do provide caveats, such as in clause 30E that the Hon Scott Simpson referred to, about the \u201CMinisters made direct that review of a plan be undertaken\u201D. To do that, under clause 30E(3), \u201CThe Minister must provide reasons why they are directing [that a review be undertaken] and make their reasons publicly available; and prepare a statement of expectations \u2026 and consult any relevant ministers or any other person\u201D. Further to that, I\u2019d say that of course the purpose of the Act will apply, and that is to, of course, uphold te Oranga o te Taiao.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a6a0e47e5e746df8c67b905ef0e7a54\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022154934e14ff9450fa96160aa9c8a2782\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m still here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834c0123fafe459bb7913cd29860d043\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: You are still here. I\u2019ve noticed that. Simon Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002242c9ce91af6f4840a3b686f5ffe2d381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242c9ce91af6f4840a3b686f5ffe2d381\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m interested if the Minister could just give an explanation of how she sees the powers being used, particularly clause 30C, \u201CMinister for Environment may appoint substitute for local authority\u201D. Now, the Minister of Local Government already has the power to appoint commissioners to investigate, see whether local authorities are fulfilling their obligations under the Local Government Act. But this also allows another Minister\u2014another Cabinet Minister\u2014to appoint a substitute for a local authority. So how is this power to be exercised and balanced against, potentially, the obligations of a local council to perform its functions, duties under the Local Government Act, versus what\u2019s described here? What could they possibly do which would trigger a Minister to appoint a substitute?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI mean, it could be Auckland Council. Maybe they decided not to follow the Government\u2019s process for changing their plan to allow for three units of three storeys everywhere, like that Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Act that was passed by National and Labour unanimously last year\u2014it was only with the objection of ACT to that bill. Maybe Auckland Council, in the future, doesn\u2019t want to adopt the National Planning Framework and all of the instruments that come with it because they feel they\u2019ve already done their unitary plan. They spent four or five years consulting on the unitary plan. What Auckland Council said when they came to the Environment Committee was, \u201CPlease don\u2019t force us to do a whole other planning exercise. Please don\u2019t force us to get involved in these regional planning committees and have iwi co-governance appointees and have to go through the whole process again\u2014it cost us tens of millions of dollars.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAuckland Unitary Plan was consulted on. A lot of people were able to make objections. They had an independent hearings panel. The hearings panel recommended that the draft plan be amended, and then it was sent to Auckland Council\u2019s elected members\u2014the full council\u2014to be voted on. While some people continued to take appeals about particular matters, the Auckland Unitary Plan was done at that point, and it enabled infrastructure operators, if they had the budget to, to then work out where to plan transport, pipes, where to upgrade the waste-water network, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo I can imagine that if a Minister for Environment who was unhappy with a council that had failed to follow the planning directions set out in this bill\u2014because they might say, \u201CHey, we\u2019ve just spent half a decade doing this and we\u2019ve only had it operating for six or seven years. Minister, would you leave us alone to get on with planning and building our city?\u201D I could see how a Minister who had invested so much in this piece of legislation might actually want to direct them to do it his way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo to the Minister in the chair, what is the criteria where a Minister for Environment may appoint a substitute for a local authority? And how does that compare to the criteria that a Minister for Local Government might use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222a2092fd0793406ea05dd02ece5abdd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a2092fd0793406ea05dd02ece5abdd9\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, of course, that distinction is that it has to relate to this Act. And as for the other points, I think the member answered his own question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022df3ddf36c7ac414193005a2182737b4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df3ddf36c7ac414193005a2182737b4a\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, fresh from those ambiguities we heard in Part 1 and the brown-washing of M\u0101ori terms through this legislation, I come to Part 2A, Subpart 5 of the proposed legislation, clauses 30ZE to 30ZT, \u201CNational M\u0101ori Entity\u201D, which I have read through and become quite enamoured with, but actually am disturbed by the criteria and a few other things of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThis Subpart 5 is a real departure from clause 4, to give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, because what it actually does is sets up a pan-tribal entity that is not representative of iwi and hap\u016B\u2014and they might get some suggestions from iwi and hap\u016B. But that pan-tribal entity, Government-appointed, has a real ability to cut against and operate against the kawa, the tikanga, and the mana that the proposed legislation intends to protect, because it\u2019s a pan-tribal entity that has its own views. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m quite disappointed by the criteria in clause 30ZM(3), when we have a purpose of the legislation, back in clause 3, talking about te Oranga o te Taiao and the health and wellbeing of the natural environment, but I see no mention of health in any of these paragraphs (a) through to (f) of 30ZM(3). So I start wondering whether or not the actual appointment criteria\u2014and there\u2019s also no mention of development expertise in here, given that it\u2019s a decision-making framework that we\u2019re trying to establish\u2014for appointing persons recommended by the nominating committee to the Minister does not link back into the purpose and the health and wellbeing and those M\u0101ori terms that we referred to\u2014kawa, tikanga, m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, mana\u2014I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s atua, tipuna, whenua, w\u0101hine, or moana\u2014there\u2019s an inconsistency there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EWhat I wanted to ask the Minister for the Environment is: what commitments can the Minister give that we don\u2019t have a M\u0101ori entity set up\u2014it\u2019s actually a Government entity that\u2019s got a M\u0101ori stamp on it\u2014to cut against the kawa and the mana and the tikanga of various iwi and hap\u016B? At the moment, this M\u0101ori entity sounds like a group of resource management sycophants with no development expertise. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223b06f0b35b834a928e251b5bec8d36ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b06f0b35b834a928e251b5bec8d36ce\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Ah, the vexed issue of M\u0101ori politics coming out from the National Party. This issue is\u2014there are different views within M\u0101oridom, and M\u0101oridom are not at one in respect of who should speak for M\u0101ori in these issues. There are some people who say that the post - Treaty settlement entities are the only people who should speak with iwi in an area. There are some people who say that it should be iwi organisations who speak for M\u0101ori within an area. There are some people who say that in some areas it\u2019s not iwi; it\u2019s hap\u016B\u2014subgroups of iwi. Then there are other groupings like the M\u0101ori Council, the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities, who say that there are other M\u0101ori groupings, including M\u0101ori land - owning groupings and fractioning out M\u0101ori trusts and the like who own land assets, and other organisations who have a statutory basis like the M\u0101ori Council who should have voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOn the issue of how you put together regional planning committees, that issue went to the Waitangi Tribunal because there were some who said that the way in which we were putting those regional planning committees together was wrong. The Waitangi Tribunal said that, although they would have liked 50-50 co-governance, they thought the Government was entitled to land it where we were. They further said that the primary group that you should be dealing with generally is iwi or hap\u016B, but they also said that there are occasions when there are representative groupings of M\u0101ori, other than iwi and hap\u016B, who should be listened to. So how do you resolve that? Well, to a certain extent, you\u2019ve got to trust M\u0101ori to resolve it, and the legislation, effectively, creates mechanisms to allow that to happen, mechanisms to help M\u0101ori resolve those disagreements where they have disagreements locally, and time lines by which if those matters are not resolved by M\u0101ori, the system launches forward anyway, because the system does have to proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the National M\u0101ori Entity, the support for that, essentially, divides along lines of people who say that it\u2019s only iwi, hap\u016B who should have a voice, and people who say, \u201CNo, Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities, M\u0101ori land ownership trusts, and the likes of the M\u0101ori Council, on occasion, should have a voice.\u201D So faced with that choice, the Government, having heard the submissions from both of those viewpoints at the Environment Committee decided we would keep the M\u0101ori entity, in part because I can foresee a possibility that, if there are inefficiencies that develop in the way in which M\u0101ori are coalescing around how they participate in the new legislation, it might be helpful to have someone like the National M\u0101ori Entity both helping the Crown but also help M\u0101ori sort those issues out locally. Now, I say that with trepidation because the iwi hap\u016B construct will jump down my throat, and say, \u201CNo, we never want to be told what to do.\u201D But I also know that iwi hap\u016B is not the only perspective to be taken into account here, and that\u2019s why this institution has survived. I think it will help, not hinder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002261ca438211df46f29ae901ad44561208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261ca438211df46f29ae901ad44561208\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E So to carry on that conversation from a different perspective, if we look at clause 30Q(3) on page 95, \u201CIn preparing [the] statement of community outcomes, the territorial authority is subject to the general obligations on decision making\u201D, but over the page it said it \u201Cneed not ensure that the statement complies with the national planning framework or any regulation other than planning document under this Act or the Spatial Planning Act 2022.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo my question really is kind of on the same topic because I think I mentioned in the second reading that there were a lot of issues around local voice and how they got transferred on the way up. So I am just a bit concerned about this clause in that the community might actually organise something that doesn\u2019t fit with other parts of this piece of legislation and it creates some tension between everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3e1c3b9695143aebf4f546e46820ab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3e1c3b9695143aebf4f546e46820ab5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to Barbara Kuriger for that question\u2014very good question. The Environment Committee has altered the legislation to make it clearer that statements of community outcome can come up; it can well up from councils who tell the regional planning committee what they think the plan should provide for in terms of the outcomes that they want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not intended that there is an obligation on the district council, for example, putting forward their statement of community expectations that they have to go through it in absolutely fine detail and, effectively, write the plan for the regional planning committee. That would be a duplication of effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAccordingly, we\u2019re not going to impose upon them the duty to dot every \u201Ci\u201D and cross every \u201Ct\u201D when it comes to the national planning framework. We\u2019re going to say what they want and the level of detail that they want to come out of the plan to meet the expectations of their community, as expressed by the elected councillors in that district. So if we were to go\u2014and it\u2019s a fair question to ask: why don\u2019t they have to meet the details of the national planning framework? But that\u2019s the answer. It\u2019s not expected to necessarily be that detailed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4656b61e3334d878ca1eed89e7131df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4656b61e3334d878ca1eed89e7131df\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. I want to turn to clause 30I \u201CDelegation of functions by Ministers\u201D, and it says, (1), \u201CA Minister of the Crown may, generally or particularly, delegate to the chief executive of that Minister\u2019s department any of the Minister\u2019s powers, functions, or duties under this Act.\u201D, and, (2), \u201CA delegation made under this section must comply with clause 5 of Schedule 6 of the Public Service Act 2020.\u201D Then it goes to (3), \u201CHowever, the following functions or duties must not be delegated\u201D\u2014and I won\u2019t go through those. Then, (4) says that the \u201Cchief executive may, in accordance with clauses 2 and 3 of Schedule 6 of the Public Service Act 2020, subdelegate any function, power, or duty delegated to them by a Minister under clause 5 of that schedule.\u201D So my question is: why is that power there? If it is thought or deemed appropriate for the chief executive to carry those powers, why isn\u2019t that expressly put in the legislation in the first place, and why, then, when the chief executive has got that, do they have the power to then subdelegate that further down? Because you could in theory have the lowest ranking person in that Government department be the person with the responsibility. And I don\u2019t know that this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cae5ae1491dc42a8bf32a06010b6991d\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Effectively, Ministerial responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e94767044e2e432f840be176d89fcb6c\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, you know, it doesn\u2019t seem to be that responsible, quite frankly. And there may be a very good reason, and I\u2019m dying to hear it\u2014and I just see the Minister for the Environment\u2019s storing up his energy, ready to spring to his feet the moment I start to even slowly move to take my seat again. But I\u2019m looking forward to the answer, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022dadbf61ccf0840f88301f7d9ec781927\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dadbf61ccf0840f88301f7d9ec781927\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re making good progress. Well, I\u2019m going to be at about page 94 of the 971 pages; so we\u2019re about 10 percent into it. So we\u2019re making good progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister about clause 30P\u2014matters for which regional councils have responsibility. There\u2019s a pretty good and, I think, reasonably self-explanatory list relating to the use of land, coastal marine areas, and so forth. But I am particularly interested in 30P(b)(vii), where there has been the inclusion there of responsibility for the emission of noise and mitigating their effects, to include the emission of noise and light and mitigating their effect. I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister what the rationale was for including light. Was does light mean? Who measures that? Who decides?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI come from an area of the country where a portion of my electorate around the K\u016Baotunu peninsular wants to institute a dark-sky reserve. I\u2019m wondering whether this provision is one that means the Waikato Regional Council will be able to assist in using this clause to help facilitate a dark-sky reserve at the K\u016Baotunu peninsular. But, in more general terms, if the Minister could cast some light on the reason for the inclusion of light, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225019107907c84f138a116d85ec98b9b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225019107907c84f138a116d85ec98b9b4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Could the member assist me by just referring again to the clause number?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f915bf128dd4844b578f09031d55b0c\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s page 94, clause 30P(b)(vii).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00221fcf843441e3483fa7bf4c0dd41b5fab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fcf843441e3483fa7bf4c0dd41b5fab\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E While the Minister is seeking enlightenment, I would just like to come back to a previous question, which I asked the previous Minister that was in the chair, the Hon Rachel Brooking, around\u2014Minister, while you\u2019re looking for that beam of light, under what conditions would the Minister for the Environment appoint a substitute for a local authority, and how is that different or how does that interact with the conditions under which a Minister of Local Government would, say, appoint a commissioner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022175864f8a0e64fc283f19ff5ce8f1ddf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022175864f8a0e64fc283f19ff5ce8f1ddf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on the Minister the Hon Dr David\u2014David Parker. I promoted him to doctor!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00228c275f1bee3445218e6ef9299845df22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c275f1bee3445218e6ef9299845df22\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m a mere bachelor! Clause 30P(b)(vii), the emission of noise and light and their effects\u2014that\u2019s actually in relation to the coastal marine area, in conjunction with the Minister of Conservation. So I think that\u2019s limited to the coastal marine area, rather than land more generally. Officials are nodding that\u2014I\u2019ve that wrong? It\u2019s all land, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWell, it\u2019s an example of it. I can tell you an example of a recent letter than I\u2019ve had from a member of the public concerned about flicker from the effect of windmills causing light to flicker like a strobe effect. But beyond that, I\u2019ll take advice from officials and get back to the member. In respect of the question that the member Simon Court has repeated, I repeat the answer of the Hon Rachel Brooking that the Local Government Act sets out the conditions upon which a person can be put into a sister council or to replace them and, under the Resource Management Act, that function sits with the Minister for the Environment under the Resource Management Act, or, in this case, under its replacement Act, the Natural and Built Environment Act. Those are separate functions and separate decision-making criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00226c606e08704747868234ba2add4bfce0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c606e08704747868234ba2add4bfce0\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E So I just want to follow up on this question of light, because I do think it\u2019s quite an interesting one and accept that this is a clause that relates to the coastal marine area. But, of course, in an electorate like mine, the electoral boundaries are about 500 kilometres of coast. So this potential for being able to control the emission of light and mitigating the effect of light from the coastal marine area potentially upon coastal land, or an area of coastal land, is quite significant and of interest to me and my constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4e18ef405664872a59a4546d49fa0ad\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Is that where the sun rises?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e71b0d075df4bb9a3f3488b8b03fddb\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Watts wants to know if it\u2019s where the sun rises. Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b179a59d9b774691b6cb6cb426e6eeaa\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: The beautiful Coromandel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220adfb4cf395647c9a2bbd2caeacc36f1\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: The beautiful Coromandel hasn\u2019t seen much sun lately. That\u2019s been part of the problem. We haven\u2019t seen much sun. But I am interested to just tease that out a bit, because the example that the Minister gave about a windmill\u2014is that maybe in relation to an offshore windmill? Would it be, for instance, there\u2019s a lighthouse on Cuvier Island? Some people might decide that the light from the lighthouse is causing some grief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m interested to know, because it\u2019s been an addition. The original subclause, 644(b)(vii), didn\u2019t have the \u201Cand light\u201D in, but \u201Clight\u201D has been now included. So I\u2019m still keen for the Minister to give us a little more \u201Clight\u201D on the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00220f11f27582d540dca25a8b1ec13d3777\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f11f27582d540dca25a8b1ec13d3777\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on the Minister, the Hon Dr David Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3a595e613924887b9bcd6bf67fe310f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3a595e613924887b9bcd6bf67fe310f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Again? I\u2019m advised by officials that the power is necessary for both territorial authorities in respect of land\u2014that\u2019s covered by clause 30R(b). In respect of the coastal marine area, those functions are exercised by the Minister of Conservation. So it\u2019s just consistency across both of those domains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022b00a628c41ce4165b721a7d30a615a0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b00a628c41ce4165b721a7d30a615a0c\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to follow up the professorial comments regarding the vexed issue of M\u0101ori politics but in relation to Subpart 5 and the interaction that that has with clause 5(10) and clause 6(2), because the comment that was made is that there was an accommodation for iwi, corporations, trusts, and every other man and his M\u0101ori through the National M\u0101ori Entity and the establishment of that. That\u2019s already drawn the ire of the M\u0101ori Freshwater Forum leaders. But the understanding when you interpret between clause 30 and the National M\u0101ori Entity, and you revert back to clauses 3, 4, 5, and 6(2)\u2014my understanding from the materials was there was a commitment to uphold the kawa and mana and tikanga of iwi and hap\u016B. But, now, we\u2019re told, actually, the National M\u0101ori Entity is more about accommodating every man and his M\u0101ori. So I\u2019d like to get a commitment from the Minister for the Environment that, actually, we are focused on the kawa and mana of iwi and hap\u016B, as espoused in those early clauses in Part 1, rather than some pan-tribal notion of what kawa and tikanga happen to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222af0daf0cd4145d5a29414c8cd97bbad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222af0daf0cd4145d5a29414c8cd97bbad\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I believe I addressed that in my earlier comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022df69dd3440b0409faa9622e50bf011c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df69dd3440b0409faa9622e50bf011c4\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Chair. Minister for the Environment, in 30T, \u201CMinister of Conservation has certain powers of local authority\u201D, \u201C(1) The Minister of Conservation\u2014(a) has, in respect of the coastal marine areas of the Kermadec Islands, the Snares Islands, the Bounty Islands, the Antipodes Islands, the Auckland Islands, Campbell Island, and the islands adjacent to Campbell Island, the functions, powers, and duties that a regional council would have under this Act if those coastal marine areas were within the region of that regional council\u201D. Firstly, is that the case under the current legislation? Secondly, would this have any impact on a Kermadec sanctuary when the Government brings that bill to the House? Yeah, that\u2019d be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227a5d0eb35e7e422c831a776cc0a5e473\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a5d0eb35e7e422c831a776cc0a5e473\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, it is the case. It\u2019s found at section 31A of the Resource Management Act\u2014it\u2019s a carry-over. There is no regional council that covers those areas, therefore the regional council functions that affect those uninhabited islands fall to the Department of Conservation. And in respect of the Kermadecs, were there to be a marine reserve in the areas around the Kermadecs, I don\u2019t think that would affect the outcome of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00225d9be0ba51d4461692fbbd3af38df04f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d9be0ba51d4461692fbbd3af38df04f\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022a221fa80b445480aaedd65445c850654\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a221fa80b445480aaedd65445c850654\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to come back to the functions of regional planning committees\u2014clause 30N\u2014and the power for the regional planning committee to set any environmental limit and interim limit for a region that the national planning framework requires the plan to prescribe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I just want to ask you: how is it fair and reasonable that an unelected, only appointed planning committee, which includes not just, potentially, appointees from local council\u2014and not necessarily elected members; they could be officials, they could be technocrats, plus a minimum of two iwi M\u0101ori. How is it fair and reasonable that an unelected planning committee should be allowed to set environmental limits that affect productive use of land in regions, particularly where primary production, where farming, is the main activity, or even in urban environments, where manufacturing, for example, and using water, for example, in an urban environment, or even having stormwater discharging off large commercial industrial sites, has an effect on receiving waters, receiving environments? Those are currently consented. Those consents are issued by local councils, and those local councils which set rules for their region are democratically elected\u2014at least, their governing body is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo how is it fair and reasonable that regional planning committees will be setting environmental limits and that the people who live in those regions which depend on being able to use their environment and who could potentially agree on what effect on a common resource they\u2019re prepared to accept won\u2019t be able to do that? That power will be taken out of their hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223dd54518286548cb874001831a9d5d6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dd54518286548cb874001831a9d5d6e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The scheme of this system is that you go down from over 100 plans to 16, and they are put together regionally. Once you take that decision to put them together regionally\u2014and we think there are good reasons to do that, relating to the quality of the plans and the way in which you can approach planning regionally in respect of the issues that are identified through a spatial strategy, flowing through to Natural and Built Environment Act plans; it makes good sense to do it regionally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOnce you do it regionally, you don\u2019t have any choice but to put it together through a body that is formed from the constituent organisations, and we\u2019ve been through the fact that the formation of those committees, which we\u2019ve spoken to in the discussion on the earlier part, is left to the local councils, working with local M\u0101ori interests. If they can\u2019t agree, the decision is taken by the Local Government Commission. Every council has a right to appoint at least one person to that committee, and beyond that it\u2019s up to the locals to sort out. There\u2019s a minimum of two M\u0101ori representatives, and if they can\u2019t agree, the Local Government Commission does it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, there were some differing viewpoints around that at local government. The local government steering group that we put together, who we\u2019ve worked with extensively, who provided very good input, was concerned to make sure that that didn\u2019t mean there was a loss of democratic input, which is why the statements of community expectation are provided for and strengthened in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6e68b5cc64b491ab6d7dcd3aef98f5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6e68b5cc64b491ab6d7dcd3aef98f5c\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go to clause 30ZB and ask the Minister if a local authority or regional planning committee receives a request for joint management, if there\u2019s something that they see goes across border\u2014must firstly \u201Cnotify the Minister\u201D, in subclause (1)(a), and then \u201C(b) satisfy itself that each possible party to the proposed \u2026 agreement\u201D does certain things\u2014given the geography of our country and the 16 regional planning committees that the Minister talked about before, how often does the Minister envisage having a Minister having requests, in terms of people or organisations and groups wanting to cross borders? I\u2019m just questioning whether it\u2019s seen that it may become an onerous task or maybe an occasional happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229f51e3bbbb9141ac871cb04164027352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f51e3bbbb9141ac871cb04164027352\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to make a contribution in regards to this bill. I\u2019m interested in particular around clause 30P, \u201CMatters for which regional councils responsible\u201D. In regards to that clause, in particular, 30P(b)(iv), which is the aspects around discharges of water into water, which is relevant in the context in terms of how this clause, which is in regards to matters for which local authorities are responsible. I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s contribution in regards to how this interacts with the legislation which actually has quite a lot of similarities to this, the three waters legislation, and the Water Services Entities Act in particular. But I\u2019m interested in regards to how that clause interacts with that other aspect of legislation, in regards to this saying that these are matters for which regional councils are responsible for, but obviously the water services entities now have responsibility for particular aspects around the discharge of water into water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EFurther to that, subclause 30P(e)(i)(B), which relates to maintaining and enhancing the quality of water in the water body, again has a significant overlay in regards to the water services entities roles. I guess the question there is around what the alignment is between these two aspects of the legislation that have to be considered, in terms of the fact that the water services entities actually will be taking responsibility for that, which are not regional councils. And where\u2019s the demarcation line in regards to those accountabilities and responsibilities lie\u2014in regards to that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe enhancing of water quality in the water body will no doubt become part of the responsibility of Taumata Arowai, which is the water quality regulator, as well. Again, not the role of regional councils. No doubt, you know, through the process that consideration would have been made, but I\u2019m interested around some clarity in that regard. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00224052f27e75174234a9af024aeefcf693\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224052f27e75174234a9af024aeefcf693\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the question around joint management agreements, it\u2019s similar to the provisions found in the Resource Management Act at sections 36B and 36E, so it\u2019s a carry-over of that\u2014or similar to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the question that Simon Watts has just asked around clause 30P of the bill\u2014soon to be section 30P of the Act\u2014discharges of sewage, for example, or stormwater are required to have a Resource Management Act consent now; in the future, they will require a Natural and Built Environment Act consent for that discharge. So there\u2019s no change to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the interface with the regulator, the regulator can set minimum standards for the drinking water that comes out of a tap, and they will, but the permit to extract the water from a river, for example, that might then be treated to a standard that comes out of a tap has always been dealt with under the Resource Management Act and will continue to be dealt with under the replacement legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002256a065ed346b4a1eadb88da81c0b9f7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256a065ed346b4a1eadb88da81c0b9f7c\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Another water question. Subpart 7, which is at the end of Part 2A, deals with the establishment and role of the Freshwater Working Group\u2014clause 30ZZI, page 117 of the bill and following. That group has got to be established and has got to report back, under the bill, to the Minister not later than 31 October 2024. The Government established the K\u0101hui Wai M\u0101ori group to work on fresh water in 2018 to initiate a wider conversation with M\u0101ori. How does the Freshwater Working Group differ from K\u0101hui Wai M\u0101ori, or will it build on the work of K\u0101hui Wai M\u0101ori group, and has the Minister and the Government done any work to actually establish the Freshwater Working Group already? There\u2019s been a lot of work that\u2019s been done before the bill passes, in terms of the National Planning Framework, and I just wondered, in terms of the quite compressed time frame to have that conversation on freshwater allocation with iwi and hap\u016B at the regional and local level, what work has been done already to get that group established, going, and how it relates to K\u0101hui Wai M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb8d81462e6c422d99f290e07a068ca9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb8d81462e6c422d99f290e07a068ca9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E K\u0101hui Wai M\u0101ori was largely dealing with water quality issues that were landed during the last Parliament, through the changes to the National Policy Statement on Freshwater Management, the new national environmental standard, and some regulations that were passed at the same time, as well as some amendments to the Resource Management Act, which changed the process for the creation of water plans. So that group is, if you like, functus officio\u2014doesn\u2019t do anything now; it\u2019s finished its job, largely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis grouping here, again, there are viewpoints of some within M\u0101oridom that this should be only freshwater iwi and hap\u016B. It seems to me that that\u2019s a pretty narrow view of the interests that have to be considered. I think, if you were coming up with a fair allocation methodology for water, you would have to consider the interests of the likes of M\u0101ori land owner groups. There hasn\u2019t been much preparatory work gone into the creation of this group; although, I intend in the next little while to write to people and say, \u201CLook, can you start forming this advisory group.\u201D It is a working group. It doesn\u2019t have determinative powers but it does set up a process that obliges the Government to actually deal with these long outstanding issues and try and bring them some time to a conclusion. It has a number of stages in the process, and, in the end, subject to there being no national direction to the contrary\u2014and by that time, a future Government of whatever persuasion might have some further national direction on the issue\u2014but in the absence of that additional national direction, the decision would be left to the regional planning committee or a subcommittee of that regional planning committee to make the final determination as to what the plan would change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat the effect of this is to actually knock over \u201Cfirst in, first served\u201D as being, essentially, the way in which water is allocated. That was good historically. I know people are critical of \u201Cfirst in, first served\u201D. When water was ample and there was more than enough to go around, who did you serve it up to but the person who asked, and which order did you serve it up? You gave it to the person who asked first, because there\u2019s no competition for the water. That\u2019s \u201Cfirst in, first served\u201D; it just no longer works and has economically inefficient outcomes to the detriment of the New Zealand economy, as well as unfair outcomes to the detriment of people who haven\u2019t got those historic water entitlements and perhaps didn\u2019t have the ability to use water, because they lacked a capital base to develop their land. We need to work those issues through in the future as a country. This isn\u2019t the end of that process, but it does create a process that will come to an end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1f650155c6d4d60acb808ede52c2c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1f650155c6d4d60acb808ede52c2c76\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Minister, I want to ask you about Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe\u2014beginning on page 109. My question really goes to the potential scenario of different hap\u016B and iwi with overlapping areas of interest. Let\u2019s say in a scenario, one hap\u016B or iwi might wish to set up a Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe. That might go through a period of time\u2014some months maybe\u2014and I note that participating authorities must conclude a Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe not later than 12 months after the date in which the invitation was received or within any other period agreed by all the participating authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EMy question is: what happens if that goes through a number of months, then, say, another hap\u016B or iwi with an overlapping area of interest decides to set up their own one, and then, if we proceed through this, they cannot come to an agreement? I note clause\u00A030ZZD, \u201CResolution of disputes in course of negotiations\u201D in which participating authorities choose a binding or non-binding process involving an arbitrator or mediator and that they can\u2019t resolve it, then they may individually or jointly seek the assistance of the Minister. I\u2019m curious why there is no timing on when the Minister needs to make a decision on whether to appoint and meet the costs of a Crown facilitator and direct the participating authority to use a specified dispute resolution process for that purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBut in addition to that, I note that clause 30ZZE specifically talks about what happens when the disputing parties have an overlapping area of interest and do not wish to work collectively on developing a Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe arrangement. I note that the parties to the dispute must attend a hui facilitated by an independent person appointed by the M\u0101ori Land Court and if a dispute remains unresolved, then the Chief Judge of the M\u0101ori Land Court must make a final determination of the matter. And I note under clause 30ZZF that timing has been given there and that once proceedings commence they must be commenced not later than two months after the date of the hui referred to above. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo my question is: how long could this entire process take and why is there not any legislative requirement for timing specified in respect of the Minister\u2019s decision to require that a Crown facilitator be appointed and for parties to the dispute to attend a hui? It looks, by my reading of this, that it could take a very, very long time before matters are resolved potentially going through the mechanisms that are specified in this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223b69792791874b44887e1f240f145d52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b69792791874b44887e1f240f145d52\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The member will see that underneath the end of all of these clauses there\u2019s a reference to \u201C1991 No 69 s 58P\u201D, looking at, for example, clause 30ZZ to which the member referred. That\u2019s the reference to the same provision in the Resource Management Act. Those provisions were introduced by the prior National-ACT Government, with the support of the M\u0101ori Party, in order to try and actually create some practical mechanisms to make relationships between councils and M\u0101ori work better, and they\u2019re carried on into the new legislation. There are sometimes time frames. For example, clause 30ZZA sets out the time frame for settling Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe agreements and it says that \u201CIf an invitation is initiated under section 30ZY(1), the participating authorities must conclude a Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe (a) not later than 12 months after the date \u2026 [when] the invitation is received; or (b) within any other period agreed by \u2026 the participating authorities.\u201D So there are mechanisms to bring these things to a head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI think one of the great improvements in this legislation over the current legislation actually relates to who you should have to notify in respect of a notified consent. That\u2019s considered in a later part of the legislation, but, essentially, currently there is a non-codified list maintained by Te Puni K\u014Dkiri. One of the frustrations that councils write to me about, and applicants, at times is they use the list in good faith and then someone else pops up and says, \u201CI should have been on the list. You didn\u2019t consult with me, therefore you\u2019re in breach of your duties.\u201D, and they get sued and sometimes injuncted. In those other parts of the Act, we\u2019re making that list a code that can be relied upon by people at the date they use it so that they have certainty that if they use that list, then they have dealt with the right people. That doesn\u2019t mean to say that the list can\u2019t be updated for the future. It can be, but the decision as to who they consulted on the date they accessed the list can\u2019t be second-guessed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00220f84b42c912c4793bb29348af5c58668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f84b42c912c4793bb29348af5c58668\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022032088a0dcb8451caff6325c0c5533e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022032088a0dcb8451caff6325c0c5533e6\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Minister, thank you for your answer before. I just want to clarify that point you made around clause 30ZZA and the \u201CTime frame for settling Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe\u201D, which must be \u201Cnot later than 12 months after the date on which the invitation is received\u201D. What happens if, prior to that 12 months, a dispute does arise between parties, say, with an overlapping area of interest\u2014say, two or more hap\u016B or iwi\u2014and then this mediation process has to happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWhat happens to that provision, that it must be \u201Cnot later than 12 months\u201D? Will that Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe still have to be concluded not later than 12 months notwithstanding the dispute that hasn\u2019t been resolved, or will that dispute have to be resolved and therefore they have the section 30ZZA specification of \u201Cnot later than 12 months\u201D become void to some degree?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4496a0b51074d639e1c7e1438bee91f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4496a0b51074d639e1c7e1438bee91f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 30ZZD says that if a dispute arises amongst the participating authorities in the course of negotiating one of those agreements, they \u201Cmay undertake a binding process to resolve the dispute; but if they do not agree on a binding process, [they] must undertake a non-binding process of dispute resolution.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002245657fff31c2448eaa4d1e6f1a82d29f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245657fff31c2448eaa4d1e6f1a82d29f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e7c64ad4c9734626a644047abe720613\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002214d0aeb3104d449a89456f057527ba9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214d0aeb3104d449a89456f057527ba9b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendments to Part 2A of Supplementary Order Paper 389 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 392 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228e103547c5014ba984614c323a9e84a7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00226530b60d1bf54248a1980adc95408440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226530b60d1bf54248a1980adc95408440\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 389 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224cd4ea8dbe0e4240abb3639ffd3ceda1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b34a0cd5d7b48a287497ce953641807\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2A as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2A as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed5645d3224149dbbf7d14cb2faeca56\u0022\u003EPart 3  National planning framework \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022014e103c2cc44945a5ada04bd19dc09e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022014e103c2cc44945a5ada04bd19dc09e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3. This is the debate on clauses 32 to 94, which is the \u201CNational planning framework\u201D, including Schedule 6. The question is that Part 3 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223048740e77e54d199b86976d0f756827\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223048740e77e54d199b86976d0f756827\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I thought the committee might be interested to understand why clause 35 is in the bill. Clause 35 records that \u201CTe Ture Whaimana is intended by Parliament to be the primary direction-setting document for the Waikato and Waip\u0101 Rivers and activities within their catchments\u201D, and you\u2019ll see that there\u2019s reference at subclause (3) to the Waikato-Tainui Raupatu Claims (Waikato River) Settlement Act 2010, the Ngati Tuwharetoa, Raukawa, and Te Arawa River Iwi Waikato River Act 2010, and the Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Act 2012. Now, all of those are Treaty settlements. All of those Treaty settlements were agreed by the last National-ACT Government, and they include promises to M\u0101ori in respect of the national direction under the Resource Management Act (RMA), where the national direction under the RMA is not allowed to be inconsistent with Te Ture Whaimana, which is a schedule to those agreements and which sets out the aspirations for the Waikato and Waip\u0101 rivers. So what that provision does is it carries forward the primacy of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe principle that\u2019s been adopted by the Government in respect of all Treaty settlement obligations is that we are neither writing them up nor writing them down. We\u2019re just transitioning them into the new system, like for like, updated for the new processes under the new Act. I mention that because it\u2019s of considerable importance to those iwi that have those provisions in their Treaty settlements. There are other provisions in the schedules to the Act, which we\u2019ll come to later, that have more general promises by the Crown to uphold Treaty settlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002237032ad181e34decb795d75840990ee3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237032ad181e34decb795d75840990ee3\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the Minister providing that background information. It was useful. Part 3, \u201CNational planning framework\u201D, sets out the requirements for such a framework, and clause 33 sets out the purpose, which it says it is to achieve by \u201C(a) providing direction on the integrated management of the environment in relation to\u2014(i) matters of national significance; and (ii) matters for which national consistency is desirable; and (iii) matters for which consistency is desirable in some, but not all, parts of New Zealand; and (b)\u00A0providing direction on the resolution of conflicts about environmental matters, including those between or among system outcomes; and (c) setting environmental limits and targets.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question at the outset in this part to the Minister is: could he provide the committee of the whole House a layman\u2019s guide to the national planning framework and the kind of insight and oversight as to why this framework is going to be put in place, what it hopes to achieve, and why it\u2019s there. I\u2019m asking him that question because, again, I think that this is a piece of the whole legislation that needs to be understood by laypeople, not just those who are practising resource management or who are planning professionals or, indeed, are specialists in the area but from people who are just interested New Zealanders wanting to get things done. Can the Minister just explain, perhaps giving us what is essentially an elevator pitch to the national planning framework please? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002274693143c21f4b89843d43dbcfb0290f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274693143c21f4b89843d43dbcfb0290f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for the question. This is actually an important part of the new system, as national direction has been an important part of the Resource Management Act (RMA). One of the criticisms of the Resource Management Act is there has been too much uncertainty left for regional and district planning because of the absence of national direction. Therefore, there has not been enough guidance given to councils about what should be done in their planning instruments\u2014a common criticism by local government, by central government, and by civil society, whether they\u2019re development or environmental interests, depending on the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, this Government has already filled in some holes in the existing national direction. Existing national direction has a number of instruments under the RMA: national policy statements, national environmental standards, and regulations under section 360 and various subsections of the RMA. All of those are combined into the national planning framework, so they\u2019re consolidated into a document which will have various chapters. Those chapters will include the existing national direction that we have around air quality for controlling the small particles that give people asthma, for example, if you have too much coal burnt in an area. They will include the transitioned and, essentially, like for like\u2014the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management and the national environment standards that we have for various things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn addition, there\u2019s going to be some new national direction in the first version of the national planning framework. Some of it is more grunty than other pieces. The most grunty bit of new national direction will be the section of the national planning framework where the drafting is being led by the Infrastructure Commission to make easier the consenting of infrastructure. One of the purposes of the bill\u2014and we discussed this under the discussion on Part 1 of the bill\u2014is to enable development once you\u2019re protecting those natural environmental values, and one of the ways you do that and drive cost out of the system is to make it possible to have more permitted activities. In order to have more permitted activities, you can\u2019t have as many bespoke conditions for things like sediment control or noise when you\u2019re building a road or a new building, and in order to move away from notified applications, or, indeed, controlled activities that aren\u2019t necessarily notified but none the less require a bespoke application and bespoke consent conditions to be set by the consent authority, is to enable the creation of standards around those sorts of issues that can, effectively, be adopted by someone that needs permission to do something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the new national direction that\u2019s coming from the Infrastructure Commission, which will be a new chapter in the national planning framework, will be facilitative of the infrastructure that we need in our cities and our towns and, indeed, in rural areas, and it\u2019ll drive cost out of the system. That\u2019s one of the ways in which the very considerable cost savings that are achieved in the new system compared with the old system are achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022826f012a8e8f48f398d7047399187a87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022826f012a8e8f48f398d7047399187a87\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. That was a useful elevator pitch. I\u2019m not sure, though, that an ordinary citizen going about their day-to-day life and work would necessarily still be any more informed as to the purpose of the planning framework. But still, none the less, it was a useful exposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EClauses 37A, 37B, and 37C propose, firstly, minimum acceptable limits, then clause\u00A037B proposes the purpose of mandatory targets, and then clause 37C proposes the purpose of discretionary targets. I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister about the rationale and practical application of those three clauses and what they might mean in real terms for someone, for instance, who wants to\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014build some apartments in an urban environment or maybe a house in a rural environment, and what those practical applications are in terms of the limits, the targets, and the standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa71ad819a5642a2823b3b659bb545f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa71ad819a5642a2823b3b659bb545f8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The areas for which there must be environmental limits are set out at clause 38(1), and that\u2019s air, indigenous biodiversity, coastal water, estuaries, freshwater, and soil. The rest are discretionary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of what that might mean for someone building a house, well, probably not a lot, unless you were building a house next to or in an estuary. If you were building a house next to an estuary and you were likely to have a disturbance to the land that would cause a lot of sediment to flow into the estuary, you might breach a limit. But other than that, I would have thought it\u2019s unlikely to have much effect on someone building a house. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc0156113e284f71bde38a3cfe1c57f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc0156113e284f71bde38a3cfe1c57f0\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just continuing that discussion on environmental limits, which are an important part of the bill and which the select committee did quite a lot of work on to strengthen them because of the concerns of submitters that it was locking in existing degradation. The bill requires minimum acceptable limits to be set if ecological integrity is unacceptably degraded, and that environmental limit can be set in the national planning framework (NPF). I\u2019m interested, Minister, in what work the Ministry for the Environment (MFE) has done to date around management units, because the limits need to be identified in the management unit where the environmental limits might be set. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen recent coverage of the major air quality problems because of the industrial area in Mount Maunganui, and dust is quite a significant issue there. We have national environmental standards for air quality which deal with the bigger particles\u2014PM10\u2014but not, as I understand it, the smaller particles\u2014the PM2.5\u2014which are more dangerous because they can get into the lungs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo in terms of those environmental domains that the Minister highlighted from clause\u00A038, which of those is the ministry going to prioritise in terms of setting environmental limits, recognising that a lot of those existing national policy direction and national environmental standards are going to come across\u2014except when they\u2019re being reviewed\u2014into the transitional NPF? So what work has MFE been doing on identifying management units, what is the time frame for getting those identified, and what out of those environmental domains is the ministry going to prioritise for setting new limits? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned sediment. Sediment is a major issue in the Hauraki Gulf. We continue to get a lot of sediment run-off from earthworks. Is the impact on coastal water and estuaries of sediment going to be one of those areas where there might be some strengthened limits? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7114aa3dd464bb987b3feb7129cffe7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7114aa3dd464bb987b3feb7129cffe7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The management unit for the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management (NPSFM) is being protected so it\u2019s not re-litigated. So that management unit carries on into the first version of plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the rules relating to the existing limits that we have in other national direction like air quality, we\u2019re not proposing to change that in the first version of the national planning framework (NPF); we\u2019re just transitioning everything in as is. But there is work under way to the ministry to update that air standard in the future. In respect of estuaries, again, the first version of the NPF will just carry forward the NPSFM, and it won\u2019t change that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002284ed384b037944649d431303d67f2fd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284ed384b037944649d431303d67f2fd1\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just carrying on sort of a discussion on clause 38, \u201CEnvironmental limits\u201D, because I think the chair of the select committee raises some good questions. Particularly, I\u2019m interested in what happens where there are conflicts between limits, and I\u2019m thinking that maybe there could be situations where there\u2019s a conflict between coastal water and estuaries, for instance. How are those conflicts or potential conflicts going to be managed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESecondly, I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister, with reference to clause 38(2), which states, \u201CEnvironmental limits may be set for any other aspect of the natural environment in accordance with the purpose of environmental limits.\u201D\u2014I\u2019m interested to know what the Minister imagines could be included under clause 38(2): what they might be, how they might be determined, who decides, and what the process is for inclusion of any other aspect of the natural environment in accordance with the purposes of the environmental limits. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223767e124c89e4ac5b9586da10a179eb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223767e124c89e4ac5b9586da10a179eb4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of conflicts between or tensions between different national directions, the national planning framework can provide direction on the resolution of conflicts about environmental matters, including those between or among system outcomes, and that\u2019s provided for in that clause 33(b). In respect of other environmental limits, I\u2019ll take advice from the ministry before I respond to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4424133311f4762a79f91e7f948ab91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4424133311f4762a79f91e7f948ab91\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Just in relation to clause 35 in Part\u00A03, \u201CTe Ture Whaimana\u201D\u2014which are remarkable sets of legislation to do with the Waikato and Waip\u0101 rivers\u2014has there been any consideration given to the Te Papakura o Taranaki arrangements that are about to be settled with the various iwi of Taranaki and any future arrangements that may be curated in the Treaty settlement - scape in the event that other iwi or other organisations are set to have their settlement arrangements at an elevation higher than the national planning framework? Or is that going to be something that in the event there is an ongoing Labour-led Government, they will not permit? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00229bb4af748faf48b48380ecfcbda1ea16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bb4af748faf48b48380ecfcbda1ea16\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There are general propositions that are set out in other parts of the bill and not this part of the bill, under which the Crown promises to uphold all Treaty settlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00221fa3deeffdcc4a31ac9b216ab7568e3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fa3deeffdcc4a31ac9b216ab7568e3d\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I just want to explore with the Minister the implications of clause 40, which is the form of environmental limits, and, in particular, where it says that \u201CAn environmental limit must be expressed as relating to the ecological integrity of an aspect of the natural environment\u201D\u2014so, for example, in clause\u00A040(2)(b), \u201Cthe amount of harm or stress to the natural environment that may be permitted in a management unit.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I\u2019m really interested as to how that may be determined, because if I\u2019m thinking about, say, the conditions in a period of warm, dry weather, or a warmer dry cycle like, say, El Nino, it might affect the East Coast of the North Island, as opposed to the La Nina weather pattern, which has been much, much wetter. How would it be possible to set an environmental limit that would allow for natural variation in climate conditions, for example, when we\u2019re looking at water abstraction from rivers or aquifers for production, or we may be looking at other matters, like, for example, carrying out soil-disturbing activities or earthworks, which create a risk, if they\u2019re not well managed, of allowing soil to discharge to waterways, or of allowing erosion, generating sediment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I\u2019m interested as to how the form of environmental limit will be set with respect to the amount of harm or stress to the natural environment that may be permitted in a management unit, thinking about climate change, weather patterns, and the specific example around earthworks and the amount of disturbance that might be allowed. Is that envisaged as part of setting this limit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I also want to just ask you to comment on clause 40C, \u201CLack of scientific certainty no reason to delay or not set limits\u201D. Now, that seems like a remarkable clause to include in a bill which purports to be about managing natural and built environments. I mean, how is it possible? On what basis could a limit be set on, potentially, the condition of a waterway or the condition of a wetland or air quality if you don\u2019t have the data and if you don\u2019t know whether you are making a decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIf you can\u2019t quantify the costs and benefits when you\u2019re making a decision, that may have quite significant impacts for businesses that are manufacturing, for organisations that depend on being able to take water from groundwater, from surface water, or from impoundments for their own use. How on earth in the 21st century\u2014in 2023\u2014are we making decisions about setting limits in the absence of scientific certainty, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022612dc1d7bafa4706b670d6a8590269d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022612dc1d7bafa4706b670d6a8590269d5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Dealing with the earlier question about clause 38(2), I\u2019m advised that for an example of what an area that you could have environmental limits would be, an example could be non-indigenous biodiversity\u2014no plans to do that at the moment, but you could do that in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the question about environmental limits, if it were related to human health, you\u2019d get advice from the Ministry of Health, and that\u2019s set out at clause 40(3A). In respect of other environmental limits, it will be developed by central government agencies if it is an environmental limit for national direction, and then there\u2019s a process through which that is tested by a board of inquiry process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of clause 40C, that\u2019s not intended to mean that you don\u2019t need any scientific basis; that\u2019s just saying that the fact that your science isn\u2019t perfect shouldn\u2019t stop you acting. For example, you might have uncertainties as to what\u2019s an exact population, but you might need to protect what\u2019s left before you know the exact numbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022669fd1a3a5b345b7b22b99e965d523b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022669fd1a3a5b345b7b22b99e965d523b4\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, that\u2019s a fascinating explanation of clause 40C and how it might be interpreted or applied, Minister. I guess one of the problems with that is, as an organisation or an individual or a landowner affected by a limit set under clause 40C, how would you be able to establish whether, in fact, the effects on your property, on your business, on your undertakings, or on your person were acceptable compared to the harm that the limit is intending to prevent, because usually, when we go to court, we have some understanding of the rule of law and how it might apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo if a Government organisation or a council is going to set a limit or a parcel regulation or a by-law based on certain facts or evidence, that should be contestable\u2014it always is\u2014yet if what the Minister is saying is that we might just decide to limit something, even though we don\u2019t have all the facts and the evidence, but we\u2019ve heard that a population might be at risk, so we\u2019re going to set a limit\u2014well, imagine that that applied to, say, the Archey\u2019s frog in the Coromandel. Now, the Archey\u2019s frog is a tiny little frog. In fact, I say to the Hon Eugenie Sage that you might have even seen one in the flesh. I understand that it\u2019s about as big as your thumbnail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThere is some concern amongst people who are passionate about the environment in Coromandel in the North Island that the population of Archey\u2019s frog may be quite small. In fact, it may be almost on the verge of extinction or at least an endangered species, and yet there\u2019s a mining company called OceanaGold, which proposes to carry out some activity in the Coromandel and they have undertaken surveys of the Archey\u2019s frog population to provide some evidence about the population. What they\u2019ve found from setting out some transects and from staking out some test and evaluation areas is that, potentially, the number of Archey\u2019s frogs is tens or a hundred times more than was originally estimated in those areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, if there was a case where a Government department or one of the people or entities that has power to set these limits was to set a limit, say, about a frog\u2014they had heard anecdotally or from a lobby group or an activist group or a local environmental group that they were concerned about it\u2014and yet there were actually businesses who wanted to undertake activities that employ hundreds and hundreds of people; potentially generate hundreds of millions of dollars in export earnings for New Zealand; and pay a royalty to the Crown for the minerals that they that they earn, their business and their opportunity could be extinguished on the whim of a decision maker who decides in the absence of scientific certainty that they will set a limit on, say, how much land can be disturbed or how many trees can be cleared in order to protect a nominal population of frogs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure the member for Coromandel, the Hon Scott Simpson, who\u2019s also very passionate about the frogs, as is the Hon Eugenie Sage, a former Minister of Conservation\u2014I\u2019m sure that if they were to stand up and say, \u201CWe\u2019re worried about the frogs.\u201D, a future Minister for the Environment might just say, \u201CWell, we\u2019re just going to stop whatever\u2019s happening there.\u201D Imagine how difficult that would be to contest if you were involved in resource development, if you had hundreds and hundreds of people\u2019s employment at risk, and if you\u2019d also proposed foreign direct investment in the order of hundreds of millions of dollars to drill a tunnel under private land to access the gold reserve under Department of Conservation - managed land so that you could get the resource out without even harming a frog\u2014but somebody could still set a limit about how much soil or land you\u2019re allowed to clear, in order to protect the frogs in the absence of any evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, would you care to explain how this might work in practice, how this could be contestable, and what opportunities there are for those affected by such a limit to challenge this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022454119423131414f82571820091ee1bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022454119423131414f82571820091ee1bd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The clause doesn\u2019t say that the decision maker is entitled to ignore relevant evidence. In that sort of situation, I would have thought that if a limit was set ignoring that evidence, the decision maker would be at risk of that decision being struck down to judicial review. So that\u2019s not what the clause says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d89b71a4e5fe40f7a9d9ffde25164cb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d89b71a4e5fe40f7a9d9ffde25164cb5\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve followed the contribution of my colleague Simon Court with great interest, particularly his references to Archey\u2019s frogs, which are prevalent in debatable numbers in the Coromandel. Some say they are endangered and some say they are in a larger number. But while he was talking, I particularly was thinking of Thames-Coromandel district councillor Robyn Sinclair, who often refers to the skull of a duck being an issue that she is most often conscious of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut I want to come back to the actual legislation. There is a provision under clause\u00A040B(3) which relates to the determination of a time frame for the responsible Minister or regional planning committee to \u201Cconsider any relevant matter,\u201D. Now, in the original bill, that clause went on to say \u201Cincluding any cultural, social, wellbeing, or economic considerations.\u201D Under the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 389, the words \u201Ccultural, social, wellbeing, or economic\u201D appear to have been dropped and simply replaced with the wrap-all word \u201Cwell-being\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister is why that change has been made, and particularly why the word \u201Ceconomic\u201D has been dropped when determining time frames. I would have thought that that was a factor that should have been included\u2014and, yes, wellbeing may well include that. But I think the clause actually had far better meaning and was more useful when the longer form matters, including cultural, social, wellbeing, or economic considerations, were included. So if the Minister could advise why that truncation has been included and why particularly the word \u201Ceconomic\u201D has been dropped from clause 40B(3), please? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcd11966454e43f28c5c5e58612beab6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcd11966454e43f28c5c5e58612beab6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s because on page 65 of the bill, \u201Cwell-being\u201D is defined to mean \u201Cthe social, economic, environmental, and cultural well-being of people and communities, and includes their health and safety\u201D. So it\u2019s, effectively, just a technical correction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00225180ba1c837e473daf6521bcb4fdf50d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225180ba1c837e473daf6521bcb4fdf50d\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I want to come to clause 52A, \u201CProtected customary rights may be exercised despite a limit or target\u201D. The ACT Party absolutely supports the right of iwi M\u0101ori and hap\u016B to exercise their protected customary rights, particularly those that have been recognised through Treaty settlements and where they have a role in managing the natural environment or in making decisions about natural resources, because that has been agreed by Parliament as a solution to past historical wrongs, grievances, loss of land, and loss of access to resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut this is really interesting, because this says that those rights may be exercised despite a limit or a target\u2014I mean, when you\u2019re trying to imagine how this piece of legislation might work in practice, which many, many people are, many organisations are wondering \u201CHow on earth are we meant to operate under this new legislation after it may be passed in this term of Government?\u201D Thinking about when it comes to the marine and coastal area, what are those resources that might be covered by a limit or target, Minister, and how is a decision maker supposed to balance the needs of all of those people or organisations who might have themselves a right to access those resources which are covered under the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act? How are they supposed to have their rights for access protected, for example, where, potentially, they have a wharf or a port or a jetty or a boat ramp or some other feature in the coastal marine area which is impacted by the provisions of the Takutai Moana Act? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what the ACT Party is interested in is how would a decision maker be expected to balance where limits and targets are set that might unintentionally but excessively impact one group of resource users over another, whose customary rights are protected? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIsn\u2019t it the case that all humans exist on this planet Earth? Even in this bill, at clause\u00A013, we discussed previously, in fact, with the Minister in the chair at the time, the Hon Rachel Brooking, that all people have an obligation to protect the health of the environment. So how is it that when protecting the environment and expecting to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao, there\u2019s one group of people whose customary rights are protected, and another group of people who, when a limit is set, have to bear the weight of all the imposition of that limit? Minister, would you describe how that is supposed to work in practice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002245701eab1c3042c69946aca146744a43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245701eab1c3042c69946aca146744a43\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I can confirm that all humans exist on this planet Earth. There is the occasional space cadet, but they generally come back after a short period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issue of customary rights under the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011, there is a narrow set of unexpired customary rights and interests under that Act that are a pre-existing property right. They\u2019re not a resource consent; they are a communal property right. They\u2019re generally very narrow. For things like an area where you\u2019re entitled to launch a waka or collect tangi stones, these are pretty narrow, and those are not affected by either the Resource Management Act or the new Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00221ff770b879d0419a97dcf31e7c0f9c68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ff770b879d0419a97dcf31e7c0f9c68\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00226ce47f26fafe48379a59ca170f60bb35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ce47f26fafe48379a59ca170f60bb35\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to focus in on clause 44, on exemptions. Clause 44, \u201CExemptions from environmental limits or minimum acceptable limits may be directed\u201D, provides for: \u201C(1)\u00A0The responsible Minister may, on request, direct in the national planning framework an exemption from\u2014(a) an environmental limit relating to ecological integrity; or (b) a minimum acceptable target that has been achieved.\u201D Now, my question to the Minister, primarily, around exemptions is: what will be the parameters of the granting of an exemption, and, as Minister, what are the sorts of things that he will be looking for in a practical sense that might embolden him to\u2014if he is requested\u2014agree to an exemption on the basis of the other parts of clause 44? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIt strikes me that there is a reasonable likelihood that there will be requests for exemptions. It\u2019s obviously a clause that has been put into the legislation for practical reasons, but I\u2019m keen to know what the sweet point will be for the granting of an exemption once one has been requested, what sorts of things will he as Minister, for instance, take into account, and what assurances can he give that a future Minister might respond in the same manner or style that he might consider appropriate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIt strikes me that as we\u2019ve discussed in the previous parts in the bill, the Minister has very wide powers under this legislation, and this is another area where a framework has been put in place, a set of time frames and other limits have been put in place, and there are some targets and there are some mandatory minimums and so forth, and yet here is an immediate out where, if the request is made, the Minister can create an exemption. So, Minister, if you could please just explain a little bit about how you see clause 44 working and what the considerations might be, and that will include, perhaps, a discussion about clauses 45 and 46 as well. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002276949c4c8fe3418d8d7a666370c3d99c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276949c4c8fe3418d8d7a666370c3d99c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The member is correct that the essential features of an exemption are set out in clause 45. An exemption from a minimum limit must be designed with the least possible loss of ecological integrity, and there are areas where an exemption can\u2019t be granted. When it is, the Schedule 6 process for changing national direction must be followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002221252af1d4f34fb6a72b0c4d851fe540\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221252af1d4f34fb6a72b0c4d851fe540\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I want to come to clause 58, \u201CNational planning framework must provide direction on certain matters\u201D. Now, you\u2019ve mentioned earlier that there are provisions under this part of the bill which, essentially, translate the concerns of the Infrastructure Commission into a set of provisions which enable infrastructure to be built in a quicker way and delivered in a more efficient way. I think, Minister, if I\u2019m not misquoting you, you might have stated at one point that this bill will enable infrastructure to be delivered quicker, faster, and cheaper, or something along those lines. Well, the Infrastructure Commission has pointed out that under the current consenting system, it is costing $1.3 billion just to consent infrastructure in New Zealand every year. That\u2019s without building it or even putting up the silt fence or establishing the temporary sediment control pond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I\u2019m interested in what clause 58, on the national planning framework\u2014what direction would enable infrastructure and development corridors to be provided for? What direction would enable renewable electricity generation and its transmission to be provided for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I want to ask you that in the context of the amendment that ACT proposed to clause 7\u2014actually, I\u2019m just going to grab it here\u2014of the bill, which\u2014in fact, that\u2019s the wrong bill. We\u2019ve got so many bills here\u2014we\u2019ve got so many bills here, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBasically, if I was to paraphrase it, the amendment that ACT proposed to clause 7 would allow for connection to the grid for smaller renewable generation to the local transmission network or the grid without having to go through all of the consenting frameworks. So, Minister, given that the national planning framework must provide direction on certain matters, could you just enlighten us as to how that might work when it comes to enabling infrastructure and development corridors and enabling renewable electricity generation and its transmission, so that the members here and those watching at home can watch Parliament suspend tonight at least having felt that we\u2019ve achieved something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d45f3a80a94f4c78ae17e803e01445f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d45f3a80a94f4c78ae17e803e01445f6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I can confirm that the existing national direction in respect of transmission and renewable generation will be transitioned into the national planning framework, as will the updated form of the national policy statement on renewable generation, which is currently being consulted upon. In addition to that, there are provisions relating to the encouragement of renewable electricity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the member\u2019s point as to electricity connected to local lines distribution rather than to the national grid, there is a Minister\u2019s amendment to similar effect. We agree with the member on that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022fefb19d95f634355922cbe3f9ccb4c1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fefb19d95f634355922cbe3f9ccb4c1a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. This sitting is suspended and we will resume the committee stage at 9 a.m. tomorrow morning. P\u014D m\u0101rie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230725c858d8193fb94fb6a030f278ca387c59000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d997cdc9d144eeb8c311878bf775ad0\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 JULY 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b8e639e6212468e9f26366c4238b0d3\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 26 July 2023)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4ffd726530e4c9aa0c5b9b4b865c051\u0022\u003ENatural and Built Environment Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222420af4a5dbb4a14b1043b8a28e9846f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022409c759df7e74829837030a4dffd8b53\u0022\u003EPart 3  National planning framework (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229241a0e0904f43c690ae57612882ea42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229241a0e0904f43c690ae57612882ea42\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. Welcome back to the discussion on Part 3 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00225be9fdc94b764e3f963f67dc44c9f285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225be9fdc94b764e3f963f67dc44c9f285\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, it\u2019s good to be back here in extended sitting hours at 9 o\u2019clock in the morning. For those people who may be watching at home or listening on the radio, we are debating in the committee of the whole House Supplementary Order Paper 389 on the Natural and Built Environment Bill, in the name of the Minister for the Environment. We\u2019re up to Part 3 of the legislation. It\u2019s the area that involves environmental limits, the national planning framework and the various requirements for the framework, how the framework is to operate, what the purpose of the environmental limits are, the purpose of targets, for instance, and how environmental limits are to be set. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to, at the outset of this first call, just remind the committee of the whole House, and, indeed, as I say, anybody else that is listening or tuned in this morning, that the National Party opposes this legislation in its entirety. So when we go through the particular clauses of the bill\u2014all nearly 900\u00A0pages of it\u2014we are doing so knowing full well that if we have the opportunity and the privilege to lead a new Government in October this year, this legislation in its entirety will be repealed before Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022598ce90f1a374a6aa4768399682c0715\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Bearing in mind, we are on Part 3, Mr Simpson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc3d4c289edc4346a9ae01407ce49df2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a commitment we have made and that\u2019s a commitment we will stick to. So when we debate clause by clause\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250c98143d0a04a2ea455f3b8bdc43041\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Simpson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec07d080c234b6b826fdd3493635465\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d02d975e3b343339a9a36246d671741\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We are on Part 3. Let\u2019s stick with it, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229de0fbd994ee4db7b69dc6595c34b70e\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I thought, Mr Chair, it was worthwhile picking up on where we were at\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea8f4276e6147e4acf457a852c16ff3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, this is the whole idea. We are hearing this part by part. So let\u2019s stick with the part, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9a25166cdf0492799da0ace394cb5e0\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sure, OK. So I want to particularly refer to Part 3 and clause\u00A048, \u201CForm of targets\u201D. Clause 48(1) says that \u201CA target is a directive made in the national planning framework or in a plan.\u201D \u201CA target\u2014(a) must\u201D\u2014it says in clause 48(2)\u2014\u201Cbe able to be assessed; and (b) must be achieved by a specified time; and (c) may be expressed as a series of steps, each with a time limit, designed to achieve progressive improvement over time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister in the chair a bit more about exactly how it is going to be that the assessments are made as to time and what those steps will be. I know that there was quite a bit of discussion at select committee. There were a number of submitters who were interested in this area. We got a range of answers from officials at the time, none of which were, in my view, anyway, particularly compelling in terms of the detail about the actual form and shape of the targets. So if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind perhaps enlightening the committee of the whole House as to particularly how the form of targets will be assessed, what measures will be used, what methodology, what science, what technology, and who\u2019s going to do it, that would be helpful. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225b4fa42f52714eecb2002eb948752685\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b4fa42f52714eecb2002eb948752685\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The purpose of mandatory targets is set out at clause 37B, which is to drive improvements where things are not in a satisfactory state. The time frames to meet those targets could be set out in national direction. For example, the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management does, effectively, have limits and targets where water bodies are below those desired attributes or below the limit set for those desired attributes. And there\u2019s a period that is expressed somewhat loosely as being a generation for councils to bring things back to a decent state, and then it\u2019s up to regional councils how they progress towards that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224405efbd2b194454a277a08ba8e62e36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224405efbd2b194454a277a08ba8e62e36\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. With a piece of legislation like this, there\u2019s a lot of words in it. You\u2019re more skilled than I am in terms of background on this sort of thing but I\u2019m doing a bit of testing around what\u2019s likely to get tested, and I\u2019m looking at Subpart 10 in Part 3, where the framework rules prevail unless exceptions apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EWhen you talk about when a plan rule is more stringent or when a plan rule is more lenient, there is quite a good description in there but I just have some concerns around some of those sentences being able to be debated in terms of a legal structure around whether it is in fact in some people\u2019s eyes or in legal cases more stringent or more lenient than what might be prescribed in the legislation. So I\u2019m just wondering if we could have a comment around how the Minister sees that particular piece of legislation being managed in a tested process. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223c881a9c828046c884918fdded2ed97a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c881a9c828046c884918fdded2ed97a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the question. Clause 89 of Subpart 10 talks about how you can have rules. There are two sorts of rules that come through the national planning framework for existing national direction. One is rules that are permissive to help enable things, and an example of that is rules that allow telecommunication towers as a permitted activity. Now, a permissive rule like that sets a minimum level of permissibility but there are areas, and the Canterbury region is an example of this, where because it\u2019s so flat, you need higher cellphone towers, because otherwise the signal can\u2019t get through to people using their cellphones or working on farms who need to get an internet connection. So a rule and a plan for Canterbury can be more permissive than the background level of permission everywhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIf on the other hand, it is a restrictive measure\u2014so we say that the baseline for water quality is X, that\u2019s not set at a level that would be appropriate for every water body. It\u2019s a minimum. But there are some spring-fed creeks that are actually gin clear that we do want to have actually cleaner than that baseline. So, in that case, a regional council or a future planning committee can have a rule that is stricter than the minimum standard, and so that\u2019s what clause 89(1)(a) and (b) do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f34b83542e7343e4b343f1b6e9252506\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f34b83542e7343e4b343f1b6e9252506\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Last night, the Minister explained the national planning framework, and I want to go to clause\u00A058, because urban trees have been a major point of public concern with this legislation. In the inquiry on the Natural and Built Environment Bill that the Environment Committee undertook, we got thousands of submissions seeking the protection of urban trees, and then the bill as introduced included a clause which was very limited and caused quite a lot of opposition amongst submitters because it was really restricting the rules to specifying single trees and groups of trees. And through the select committee process and taking account of those submissions, the select committee\u2014and the Green Party\u2014was very pleased that the committee agreed to include another matter which should be included in the national planning framework so that you get that national direction, and that is urban trees. And then, in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), green spaces have been added to that, which we hope will also increase the direction on how green spaces are used for stormwater retention. We saw in the Auckland floods the value of wetlands and green spaces in reducing flooding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EUrban trees have got so many benefits, particularly as urban heat islands, for reducing the temperatures, providing shade, providing amenity, providing a place for children to play, harvesting rainwater, reducing those stormwater flows, and preventing erosion. So now we have the national planning framework providing direction on urban trees and green spaces, but there\u2019s a Supplementary Order Paper in my name, SOP 393, and I just ask if the Minister can confirm that his Supplementary Order Paper dated 25 July, at 3.56\u00A0p.m., which makes a change to Schedule 6 and ensures\u2014because there was a provision in Schedule 6, clause 30B(3), which meant that the transitional national planning framework would not include direction on urban trees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIs the intent, could he confirm, of his Supplementary Order Paper\u2014which makes that change in Schedule 6, in clause 30B(3)\u2014to ensure, like my Supplementary Order Paper 393, that the transitional national planning framework will indeed provide direction on the urban trees and green spaces? Because, being in Auckland recently, I walked around a suburb where I grew up, and two large p\u014Dhutukawa that I remember from my childhood and a huge camphor tree had just been completely felled. And there was probably no need for a consent for that because they weren\u2019t in a special ecological area. That\u2019s why we need protection for urban trees; that\u2019s why this clause is so important. Could the Minister confirm that his Supplementary Order Paper, like mine, ensures that there will be direction on urban trees in the transitional national planning framework?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa369a30f8e147c090683e1831fc08d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa369a30f8e147c090683e1831fc08d2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect to the Minister\u2019s question about the amendment to Schedule 6 deleting (f), yes, that will come up in the schedules, but the member is correct that that is in the Supplementary Order Paper tabled at 3.56 p.m. and that clause 58(f) includes urban trees and green spaces. That is not to say that every tree can be protected. If a city is intensifying as its population grows, trees do get cut down in order to build houses and that\u2019s unavoidable sometimes. But it does mean that if you have a loss of tree canopy on private land, you actually have to do better in respect of public land sometime and make sure that you have a good plan for the urban tree canopy and open green spaces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022df48ddfdc9e84315b74b043390535a79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df48ddfdc9e84315b74b043390535a79\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to focus on clause 55, \u201CMatters relevant to setting management units\u201D, and in clause 55(1)(a) it says \u201Csufficient to enable environmental limits and their mandatory targets to meet the purposes set out in section 37 and 47 respectively\u201D, and in clause 55(1)(b), \u201Care determined by reference to scientific knowledge and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI would like to say that if a particular iwi or hap\u016B are in their area, is it their view of m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori or is it a view of someone else? So it goes back to some areas we traversed a little yesterday about secret knowledge, and the view of a constitutional lawyer that these things are often untestable, but just saying \u201Cm\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D doesn\u2019t actually define whose view that could be based on. I think, as we go back to the principle in the law that the law should be able to be known by everyone\u2014and I know the Minister is a legal professional as well as now a legislator. Is it his view that this can be known and meet that principle of being able to know the law? Because I seriously doubt that that could be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo, therefore, in, say, a resource consent application in Marlborough, for example, it wouldn\u2019t be that appropriate, you would think, to have a view from a cultural expert who doesn\u2019t whakapapa back to that area, but that\u2019s not defined here. As we heard in the Environment Committee last week, that isn\u2019t good law, and so that actually offends the principle of being able to know the law, unless the Minister has got contrary evidence, which I\u2019d really like to hear, because we don\u2019t want to be in a position where we\u2019ve already got a very complicated\u2014and just even looking at the size of this bill says it all, really. There\u2019s a lot in here. And if it\u2019s not clear, given that it\u2019s over 900 pages, you\u2019d think that all these things would be nailed down, but to me, this is not nailed down, and so I\u2019d really like the Minister\u2019s view on that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022792e8883455f4993b6da28c51a8c83ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022792e8883455f4993b6da28c51a8c83ee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve gone through some details on how this new system, overall, is faster, cheaper, and better than the status quo: 100 plans down to 16; instead of 10 years, to take a plan down to four; a lot more permitted activities; clearer delineation between what we are actually trying to protect, which is natural environment values, not nimbyism supported by matters of personal taste\u2014within those limits, enabling development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, in respect to the specific question that the member raises in respect of clause 55, the management unit is set by the Minister or a regional planning committee. They\u2019ve got to listen to evidence, including M\u0101ori knowledge, as well as science. Some M\u0101ori knowledge meets the definition of science; some doesn\u2019t. It\u2019s also true of non-M\u0101ori knowledge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the things that have to be taken into account to satisfy the Minister or the planning committee, they\u2019re set out in subclause (2). It says there that you focus on the biophysical state of the natural environment, the pressures on the environment, and the losses or gains of health in the natural environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThen I would draw the committee\u2019s attention to subclause (3), which is the most important subclause there: \u201Cthe size and location of a management unit should be set to provide flexibility and to maximise opportunities for offsetting and other management approaches to be applied.\u201D That was a concern of the Treasury. They said that if you set management units too narrowly, you actually do not have enough flexibility in the system. That interacts with the provision that says that not all outcomes that are prescribed by the legislation can be met in any one place. If you have too narrow a management unit, then, effectively, you can\u2019t achieve that broader purpose of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00220c213d931aca4c689d5a23d3ae5d9b37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c213d931aca4c689d5a23d3ae5d9b37\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to spend a minute or two just on Supplementary Order Paper 389, clauses 52 and 52A. Clause 52 is titled \u201CConsiderations relating to customary marine title area\u201D and indicates that the responsible Minister must, amongst other things, \u201Cconsider whether the limit or target would directly affect a customary marine title group and (if they agree that it would) consider that as a factor in favour of setting the limit or target regionally\u201D. Now, that, on the face of it, appears to be understandable and potentially reasonable, but there looks, to me, to have been inserted in the Supplementary Order Paper a new clause 52A, which is titled \u201CProtected customary rights may be exercised despite limit or target\u201D. It goes on to read: \u201CA protected customary right may be exercised or continue to be exercised under the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011 despite\u201D\u2014despite\u2014\u201Cany environmental limit or target set in the national planning framework or a plan.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: why did he and his officials consider it necessary to strengthen clause 52 by the insertion of clause 52A, and what, essentially, is the effect and impact of carving out a protection that would provide for an exemption that was despite a limit or target having been set? It strikes me that that is contrary to the overall environmental good that the legislation seeks to put in place by carving out an exception that is so specifically described and proscribed in the statute. So if the Minister could give some insight into the reason for the specific inclusion of clause 52A, I would appreciate this opinion and view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022af2fd087de4a4753a04b3d6370a39a47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af2fd087de4a4753a04b3d6370a39a47\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I did so last night, but I am happy to repeat it: that was inserted on the advice of officials because neither the Resource Management Act nor the Natural and Built Environment Act, when passed, cut across Takutai Moana rights, which are narrow\u2014they are unextinguished customary rights of M\u0101ori that predate the Treaty, actually. They are a common-law right, not a Treaty-based right. They are generally very limited to things like collecting h\u0101ng\u012B stones or the right to launch a waka. This House has been through many debates on those issues, and the provisions that have been protected there is the legislation that was passed by the last National-ACT Government, with the support of [Inaudible].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b484db51cf3846799a138be9a67ec245\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b484db51cf3846799a138be9a67ec245\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9ea6404b6104cee836069360e1aeaa5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9ea6404b6104cee836069360e1aeaa5\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Good morning, Mr Chair, and good morning Minister\u2014and thank you, officials, for joining us in the Chamber again. I want to come now to Subpart 7, Resource consents\u201D, because I feel we\u2019re not going to get much further in questions to the Minister on the preceding clauses. Resource consents; Clause 75AAA, \u201CHow activities are categorised\u201D. Now, this cuts to the chase of what the purpose of the resource management reforms are: how we define the way people use their land and the activities they propose that people do on that land. Are they to be \u201CPermitted\u201D activities, which is provided for in the Resource Management Act\u2014very few of those. Are they to be \u201CAnticipated\u201D activities, which the bill describes as \u201CActivities that require a resource consent which the authority may grant (with or without conditions) or decline in accordance with the relevant provisions of the national planning framework or plan (whichever applies) and the limited discretion conferred by those provisions.\u201D May these activities be \u201CDiscretionary\u201D\u2014\u201CActivities that require a resource consent, which the consent authority may grant (with or without conditions) or decline in accordance with the relevant provisions of the national planning framework or plan (whichever applies).\u201D And, of course, there are \u201CProhibited\u201D activities: \u201CNo person is entitled to apply for a resource consent for the activity, and no consent authority has power to grant a consent for the activity.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo I would like to explore, Minister, with you\u2014and potentially seeking advice from officials\u2014as to how this might work in practice. Because what we understand with the problem statement identified by ACT and National and Labour over many years, is that the Resource Management Act made it too hard to get consents for things that we do every day that we know how to do well: whether they\u2019re land developments that involve excavation, earthworks, land clearing, building things near watercourses that require diverting watercourses\u2014potentially disturbing places like wetlands and having to reconstruct wetlands in order to manage our stormwater in an environmentally friendly way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, when we think about permitted activities, we come to clause 75AAB, \u201CHow to decide which activity category applies\u201D. Now this is absolutely vital if we\u2019re actually going to get \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D to go faster, if we\u2019re going to make it easier for people to develop their land and to be able to propose an investment to a commercial board, for example. Imagine you want to build a distribution centre; a warehouse; if you want to stand up a manufacturing operation\u2014you want to know that when you make that commercial proposal to your board, you can give some certainty about the time it will take to go through the regulatory planning process. ACT has identified that process as a barrier to building new road infrastructure, for example, which is why, on Sunday, we released a policy which actually sets out how we could build more roads using tolling. But one of the barriers to that is the lack of regulatory certainty for investors who wish to pay for New Zealanders to have better roads and are happy to do so and recover the cost over time\u2014the regulatory uncertainty of seeking consents for that is a barrier that needs to be overcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, clause 75AAB: How do we decide whether an activity is permitted, anticipated, discretionary, or prohibited? Because I note when it comes to prohibited activities, it wasn\u2019t that long ago that the Minister and the Ministry for the Environment released a national policy statement for freshwater management\u2014or was it a national environmental standard for freshwater? Forgive me: there\u2019s so many policies, rules, regulations, and red tape when it comes to doing things in New Zealand with your land, particularly if you happen to be near a watercourse, which it turns out most of New Zealand is\u2014which prohibited, either accidentally or on purpose, we weren\u2019t quite sure\u2014activities in a wetland. And the definition of that wetland, that calls activities like quarries and land development to be prohibited on that land, included, somehow\u2014what was interpreted to be\u2014three bulrushes in the middle of a paddock, because bulrushes are a species of reeds which indicate that the ground is damp most of the year round, and so that somehow got captured in the definition of wetlands. So Minister, what I\u2019m interested in is, and with your permission Mr Chair, I\u2019ll just continue to expand on the question\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c50cd9b3ecce45199dc51d8c3c1b1a59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c50cd9b3ecce45199dc51d8c3c1b1a59\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8a246f7312847d8b6136c7f3353b7ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8a246f7312847d8b6136c7f3353b7ce\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I too, actually, want to turn the Minister\u2019s mind to the same section that Simon Court has been speaking about, but I also want to speak about clause 75AAD. I\u2019m sure the Minister would have seen over the weekend that, once again, Canterbury has been inundated with a wet weather event and our rivers are absolutely choked and have once again flooded much of Canterbury. Rural land, farmland, rural towns, council roads, culverts, and bridges have all been damaged. We saw this obviously in 2021, and, again, we see it just two years later, though, I have to say, not to the same extent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe Minister will be aware that regional councils have asked the Government for a contribution towards clearing out and managing rivers around the country. However, this has been declined. Most councils will tell you, particularly the Canterbury Regional Council, that they are unable to carry out this work, given the current planning and permitted regulatory environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo, with regard to clause 75AAD, and activities that may be permitted with or without requirements, could the Minister please explain how regional councils, and/or landowners, can interpret this legislation so that they are able to carry out flood mitigation work on rivers around the district so that infrastructure, human habitat, farmland that is currently being regularly flooded and causing millions of dollars\u2019 worth of damage can actually be protected. And, notwithstanding subclause (2) in clause 20, I have quickly read through that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ECan the Minister please explain the overlay of the proposed rules, regulations, and, of course, the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management with regard to statements like Te Mana o Te Wai, and how, under these rules and proposed new rules, our councils, our landowners, and our homeowners can carry out flood mitigation works to protect their valuable infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022058ea5b0367b45119c0c632d665a139e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022058ea5b0367b45119c0c632d665a139e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Although the detail of consents is dealt with in Part 5 of the bill, not here, it is correct that national direction under the new system, as it can now under the Resource Management Act, could say all flood schemes are permitted activities. It could do. I don\u2019t think it would be likely to, but it could do if a future Government wanted to. The rules relating to where you can put up flood banks and what work you can do on tree control are unchanged by the passage of this Act, but could be modified by a future Government in either a permissive or restrictive way in the future were that in the national interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3aa007c517745c7b4701105dd5d55a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3aa007c517745c7b4701105dd5d55a6\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Clause 82 relates to and deals with the national planning framework provisions for transitional provisions. It says that it \u201Cmay include transitional provisions for any matter, including its effect on existing matters or proceedings.\u201D Minister, could you explain how you see that as working in practice, please\u2014in what situations may a transitional provision apply? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002252167ee4553946968f8ab33de797d343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252167ee4553946968f8ab33de797d343\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E As is set out in the footnote to that particular clause, that\u2019s the carry-over of section 45A of the Resource Management Act. What that could mean in practice is that national direction could say that it doesn\u2019t apply to resource consents that have already been lodged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00222a26e7051ab045e0b4aedf46b8e84de5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a26e7051ab045e0b4aedf46b8e84de5\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I apologise to the Minister and members if this matter has already been canvased. I want to ask the Minister about clause 51, which is about discretionary targets that may be set for any matter for which a mandatory target is required. Clause 51 outlines that discretionary targets can be set for a system outcome, a framework outcome, or a plan outcome. Now, this bill gives quite big powers to central government in relation to the setting of targets, and that was subject to quite a bit of debate in the select committee. I am not someone who thinks that central government doesn\u2019t have a role; in fact, I think we need to strengthen the national direction provided through the system from the centre down in order to achieve a whole variety of different outcomes. But concerns have been expressed about the level of ministerial and central government control and direction. And so I wonder if the Minister could ventilate to the House how he expects the discretionary targets regime to be used in contradistinction to the mandatory targets regime: when would one be used and when would another be used?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022efafef7e162945ac81a1576686f23723\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efafef7e162945ac81a1576686f23723\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E With respect to the member, I think he\u2019s misread the clause: \u201CDiscretionary targets may be set for any matter that is not a matter for \u2026 a mandatory target\u201D. It\u2019s that way; not the other way round, which is just how the member read it out. It may have just been a slip of the tongue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f9365502a214bee9667519526c7f819\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is that what I said? Oh, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c37f594ae7f0453b97691dd40f2aa18b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but I\u2019ll assume that that was just a slip of the tongue. All national direction currently under the Resource Management Act is discretionary, so there\u2019s no mandatory national direction. What this does is respond to the issues which are of concern to New Zealanders and says, \u201CLook, these are areas that really the system does need a bit of national direction on.\u201D They are listed, and I agree with the member that that\u2019s been one of the failures of the existing system: that we haven\u2019t had that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00224a6b73e46b864cc9a6067ce877b7ee04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a6b73e46b864cc9a6067ce877b7ee04\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e4fbc900c38342a0936d9ee500ab8f70\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002229fbc8fbd33b4d67bf797aff0ab0dfbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229fbc8fbd33b4d67bf797aff0ab0dfbe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendments to clauses 44 and 75AB of Supplementary Order Paper 389 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220c10a115871f44ef8c6a4389ce0e0d24\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002230dc5d280a6e4c56b74a5a9016c538c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230dc5d280a6e4c56b74a5a9016c538c9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendments to Part 3 of Supplementary Order Paper 389 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 392 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002298c6855fbcd14d1c990edda9d132c379\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225954f094a9774a46a9b64c740ca29589\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225954f094a9774a46a9b64c740ca29589\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 389 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022661be372aee54139ae501b118509b27e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022927b5fe1733a48b3aa08e78aea21955e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000059\u0022\u003EPart 4  Natural and built environment plans \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002284fcf67ff9fa45c98f730df569be603f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284fcf67ff9fa45c98f730df569be603f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 95 to 151, \u201CNatural and built environment plans\u201D, including Schedules 7, 8, 9, 11, and 12. The question is that Part 4 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022a484a199ca174706b4d3b78567869661\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a484a199ca174706b4d3b78567869661\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to come to clause 95, \u201CNatural and built environment plans\u201D, and 95(2), \u201CIn the case of the Nelson and Tasman unitary authorities, there must be 1 plan that applies to both the region over which the Nelson City Council has control and the region over which the Tasman District Council has control (together the Nelson and Tasman unitary authorities).\u201D\u2014well, that\u2019s what they are now. Just like Auckland is a unitary authority which includes the functions of the former Auckland Regional Council, and the district and city councils within the Auckland region. A unitary authority makes a lot of sense for some regions, just like the East Coast\u2014Tair\u0101whiti, to manage the functions of the district council and the regional council when it comes to land use, planning, and environmental management, particularly around freshwater resources, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s remarkable how different this is to the provisions in another bill that Labour is trying to push through the House right now. The Water Services Entities Amendment Bill, which, when tabled in the House, when it came to select committee\u2014the Governance and Administration Committee\u2014actually provides for the Ng\u0101i Tahu takiw\u0101, which extends into Nelson and Tasman district to take the Seddon and Murchison water infrastructure assets and manage them separately under what is a quite different regional grouping. Even though Seddon and Murchison live within the Nelson and Tasman entity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I\u2019m interested as to how the Natural and Built Environment Bill, and natural and built environment plans made under this legislation, how it is that if you live in Seddon and Murchison right now, and if this legislation is passed\u2014which it may still do, even though Labour is struggling to pass cars at the moment, let alone bills. It may well be, if you live in Seddon and Murchison, that you\u2019ll be under a natural and built environment plan under this bill, but your water services will be managed from Christchurch under a separate water service entity because Seddon and Murchison fall under the Ng\u0101i Tahu takiw\u0101. So, Minister, would you explain why it is that these two separate bits of legislation treat Seddon and Murchison in the Nelson and Tasman district in a different way? Question one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESecond question, Minister: when it comes to clause 96, the \u201CPurpose and scope of plans\u201D\u2014\u201CA plan must\u2014(a) give effect in the region to the national planning framework, as directed by that framework; and \u2026 (c) be consistent with the relevant regional spatial strategy\u201D\u2014which I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll get to next. Minister, when we think about those national instruments, national policy statements for fresh water, urban development, most recently indigenous biodiversity, which applies significant natural areas, planning overlays onto private property. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIf these natural and built environment plans must give effect to these planning instruments, how is it that local communities, who might decide to use their land\u2014say for farming, they want to use irrigation, they want to be able to develop land in a way that their community agrees is appropriate for the development they\u2019re undertaking, whether it\u2019s the wine-growing industry in Nelson Marlborough, or it\u2019s dairy farming in Southland, or, who knows, solar farming in Northland. How is it that if there are national instruments\u2014national policy instruments like for fresh water, indigenous biodiversity, how are they to be reconciled with the aspirations of a local community to develop in a way that they see as benefiting the people of their region when that\u2019s at odds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EA natural and built environment plan will have to incorporate all of those instruments, whether it\u2019s the freshwater rules, indigenous biodiversity requirements, which actually put limits on how people will use their private property if it happens to have a stand of bush or some wetland plants on it that a planner identifies as significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, do you want to describe, firstly, how do you reconcile the natural and built environments plans with the water service entities approach, and would you tell us how are local communities supposed to get ahead with these plans on top of them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222a8e5e1ea02e47f38021ffa84460a51f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a8e5e1ea02e47f38021ffa84460a51f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the first question, this has never been about local government reorganisation. I don\u2019t have a view on that; it\u2019s not within the purview of this legislation. It is applying to existing district council and regional council boundaries as they currently are, to generally set around catchments in respect to the case of regional councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the point made in Nelson and Tasman, it\u2019s interesting that the Nelson Mayor, the Hon Dr Nick Smith, a former Minister for the Environment in this place, favours this approach to having a regional plan in that area. I\u2019ve heard him make the point that it\u2019s silly that in respect of Richmond, which is, effectively, a suburb of Nelson City, but it is in the Tasman district, not the Nelson City boundary area\u2014you\u2019ve got different rules relating to subdivision and other issues that should really be similar between the two areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the question as to the scope of plans under clause 96 and how you work issues out such as the member raised, well of course those issues already rose. Of course you can farm on a dairy farm, but if you\u2019re going to pollute the adjacent waterway to a degree that it\u2019s no longer fit to swim in, the national planning framework cuts in and says, \u201CWell, the regional council should do something about that.\u201D It doesn\u2019t say that you can\u2019t have a dairy farm, but it means that you\u2019ve got to do it carefully in relation to an adjacent waterway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8a35d104e2644e195d63159ddfcab51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8a35d104e2644e195d63159ddfcab51\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Picking up on the comment that the Minister just made, which is that this is not about local government reform, well, that\u2019s true in one sense, but that\u2019s not what many people think. Certainly, I sat through many of the submissions from local government representatives to the Environment Committee, and I think my colleagues Scott Simpson and Barbara Kuriger would agree that one of the recurrent themes from local government\u2014Local Government New Zealand, the peak body, and a whole range of other councils\u2014was that this is a surreptitious, stealthy way\u2014those are my words, not theirs\u2014of reorganising local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re now going to have these regional planning committee superimposed over the top of councils. Contemporaneously, or at least simultaneously, we have the Government\u2019s plans around three waters, which Simon Court has just referred to. Interestingly, when the bills were introduced, it was three waters across the big four mega entities, and literally whilst the current bills we\u2019re talking about were at the select committee that got changed to 10. We\u2019ve had this quite absurd scenario in which Parliament has legislated for a bunch of different things and, barely before the bills were even signed into law, the Government has had to introduce more bills to Parliament to fix up the three waters reform process, and we\u2019ve gone to 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got that going on at the same time that this is happening, and to make matters worse\u2014another layer\u2014we\u2019ve got the future of local government reform\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d521cc700cb04c04a5f7a24258bea91e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just let\u2019s stick with Part 4. You are contextualising, but let\u2019s just move towards Part 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f97105f3bd2f437486a5cd5b22eb3056\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s very material, Mr Chair, because it goes to the point that Simon Court made but also the Minister\u2019s response, in relation to how this is not around reorganising local government. I just put it to the Minister that all of these reforms are disconnected from each other, and that\u2019s actually what the select committee heard right the way through. I\u2019ll just give you an example: we had the Mayor of Selwyn, who said what I just said. Plus, you\u2019ve got K\u0101inga Ora, which has its own regions. It\u2019s a mess\u2014it\u2019s a mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I put it to the Minister: can we be confident that the 15 bodies established here are actually going to be the final group of bodies that we end up with? It does seem to many people\u2014including, I think, many people on this side of the Chamber\u2014that we have a very discombobulating reform process here. Actually, there\u2019s an argument that it would be better to do all of it at the same time rather than in bits and bobs and create enormous problems along the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4897ac4722b4e0a84224f7178ef0f8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4897ac4722b4e0a84224f7178ef0f8c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There are mixed views within local government on this. As I\u2019ve already quoted you, the former Minister for the Environment says this is a good idea in respect of the region that he\u2019s in and is the mayor of part of. There are many other mayors and councillors in different parts of the country also supportive. The local government steering group have been supportive. They\u2019ve put additional protections relating to statements of community expectation, which we\u2019ve already covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s not just the councils that support it; I quote from the submission from the Property Council: \u201CThe Property Council has long championed the need for resource reform and supports the action taken by the Government to reduce the number of plans from 100 to 15 and introduce regional spatial strategies which seek to plan for 30-plus years. We commend the Government and officials for producing the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill.\u201D The numbers changed from 15 to 16, but you can see that there are development interests as well that support the move down to 15 plans. There is no hidden agenda here in respect of local government reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00225278bd3c310a41b6a33983bbc0385f75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225278bd3c310a41b6a33983bbc0385f75\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I want to come now to Subpart 2, if we\u2019re on that\u2014I assume we are\u2014which is the \u201CContent of plans\u201D and what plans must include. It\u2019s great to see that plans will have a strategic content and strategic outcomes and policies to identify the issues that are important to each region and that they will deal with matters necessary to ensure consistency with the relevant spatial strategy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m a big fan of spatial plans\u2014which we\u2019ll get to in the following bill\u2014because they identify where people should live, where hazards might be, and where it\u2019s not appropriate to build infrastructure or homes, for example. One of the challenges of this planning process, though\u2014and it was actually raised by representatives from Taituar\u0101, or representatives of Local Government Professionals, at the select committee hearing on this bill\u2014is that in order for the planning function to be carried out according to the intent of this legislation, it will require the planners in local councils and regional councils to be sent over to a new regional planning committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ELocal councils will continue to have to pay the salaries of planners, technical support staff, people who specialise in geospatial information systems\u2014people who have all the technical competencies required to carry out those planning investigations and planning coordination\u2014who are actually putting together the documents and the maps that underpin regional or district plans, which will now be natural and built environment plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhen you look at the responsibilities of regional councils and territorial authorities to contribute to these plans, what they said was, \u201COnce you\u2019ve co-opted all of our staff and required us to pay for them, but we don\u2019t get anything for it\u2014you\u2019re not compensating us for the loss of these staff\u2014you don\u2019t recognise that we\u2019re still processing consents and planning applications under the existing Resource Management Act\u201D\u2014or whatever the transitional provisions are\u2014\u201Cwhile you\u2019re taking our staff. Why don\u2019t you just set up a local office of the Ministry for the Environment in, say, Ng\u0101tea\u201D\u2014or, I don\u2019t know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208de9f1cd04140a7a50266a82defa373\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: A good town. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ba0101164ee47ce9fcdec95af8558b5\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that\u2019s right, Ng\u0101tea in the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s electorate, or maybe in Te Atat\u016B or Henderson in West Auckland, where I live, or anywhere in the country that\u2019s going to have to put these plans together, because it\u2019s going to require a significant amount of staffing and resources that the legislation proposes, I assume, to take from regional councils and territorial authorities, or what we\u2019d call district council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen, Minister, not only is it this enormous resource drag on the sector, which doesn\u2019t appear to be funded in any way\u2014it\u2019s another one of these unfunded obligations that central government imposes on local government\u2014but it also creates this problem. There are all of the conflicts between resource allocation, whether it\u2019s fresh water, soils for highly productive food production, soils of land for housing, or whether it\u2019s asking, \u201CShould we be allowed to develop a quarry on our land, because that aggregate is needed for construction and infrastructure and homes?\u201D or, \u201CIs the traffic going to cause a problem for our neighbours, with truck movements, hours of operation, dust and noise?\u201D\u2014all of those other matters that need to be resolved between neighbours, between private property owners, and between private property owners and those who have responsibility for administering the commons on behalf of all people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, currently, regional councils administer the allocation of fresh water and issue consents for discharges into fresh water, but all of these conflicts are apparently going to be resolved in these natural and built environment plans. So, Minister, two questions: how are local councils and regional councils meant to deal with this massive drag on their resource that establishing these plans will cause, and how are planners remote from their supervisors, their elected members in councils, supposed to reconcile all of these conflicts between land use and resource allocation in a separate room from those entities, those councils, that are meant to administer all of these rules\u2014Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00224a52490cc3414d01a7486e5a77a054b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a52490cc3414d01a7486e5a77a054b9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Only the ACT Party seems to think that by reducing from over 100 plans to 16, the system will be less efficient\u2014it\u2019s just wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022755b081760934858af2ebde9a539b035\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Well, who said that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec11730c2c4f452e9e9037d7d65b901a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that seems to be the implication\u2014that you don\u2019t want to have the system changed that comes down from 100 plans to 16. I\u2019ve read out the likes of the Property Council. They think it\u2019s going to be more efficient. The cost-benefit analysis done independently of me says that for every dollar spent in the system, $4.50 will be saved by system users. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s enormous amounts of money going to be saved. One of the reasons is that there\u2019ll be a lot more permitted activities, which seems to be what the member is worried about. That is achieved in part through the procedural principles set out in clause 6A, which we\u2019ve already passed, but which says that you\u2019ve got to reduce reliance on resource consenting processes. Now, plans will be put together by a regional planning committee, with the staff drawn from the local planning committees, who will be putting together 16 plans across the country instead of over 100 individually. This will be more efficient and is going to save the country hundreds of millions of dollars every year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222f0c78ec0a394ff1b10c90ef53ea1717\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f0c78ec0a394ff1b10c90ef53ea1717\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I go on, just to the member Simon Court, I note that the member, when he sat down, asked about three questions across the floor. The intention of the committee stage is that we have a question and answer to actually advance things, rather than making\u2014so I\u2019ll invite the member, and the member is entitled to stand for as long as he likes to speak. However, I will invite him to consider the way of doing business which may be more productive and give him the answers which he requires, and save him from calling the questions across the Chamber once he sits down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00226b4ad3393a3c43a7b6c3112c7c747286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b4ad3393a3c43a7b6c3112c7c747286\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270667f9451da4d38a6843483fbe77657\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair. Apologies, Mr Scott Simpson. I\u2019ll just seek clarification from the Chair: there were three questions I asked, the Minister has not answered them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b6a80e22b9d4f8d8dcf782e83437db0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not a point of order, the member can sit down. I\u2019m just making an observation to the member, he can choose to take heed of it or not. He can continue the way he does, that\u2019s his prerogative; however, I\u2019m just indicating to him the way that the committee stage has been intended to be conducted to be most conducive to ensuring that the members get the information they need. It is entirely in the member\u2019s hands how he continues. The Hon Scott Simpson, time will start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af5cffc12f6341348d82df80fa7b11ee\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I want to pick up on some of the comments from the Minister, from Mr Court, and particularly from my colleague Chris Bishop, because Part 4 on page 148 at clause 95 has the relatively benign first subclause that says, \u201CThere must at all times be a natural and built environment plan (a plan) for each region\u201D. That, on the face of it, sounds perfectly reasonable. As the Minister has said, the plan of the legislation is to have far fewer plans, full stop, across the nation, and that would almost inevitably result in less planning from districts, for instance, like mine in the Thames-Coromandel area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut the risk, I suspect, is that the devil will be in the detail. So Part 4 then goes on through the next more than 20\u2014nearly 30\u2014clauses to describe the rules, the processes, the exceptions, all the matters relating to things like aquaculture activity, protection of customary marine titles, charges for coastal occupation, environmental contributions. There are a myriad of rules and, in fact, most of the clauses that follow clause 95 relate to rules for the planning committees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThen there is Schedule 7. Schedule 7 goes into even more detail about the preparation, change, and review of the natural and built environment plans. It is a mind-numbingly complicated and detailed schedule. Therein, I think, lies the challenge for the Minister, because notwithstanding what he said about this not being an additional layer of \u201Clocal government by stealth\u201D being inserted into the whole local government environment, that\u2019s not the perception out there in the real world. Out there in the real world, there is real concern about the way these committees are going to be formed, what their role will be, what influence and what power they will wield over the lives and property rights of citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere can be no doubt that these committees are going to be extremely powerful. The scope and breadth of the material and considerations that they will be tasked with making decisions upon are truly mind-boggling. This goes to the root cause of criticism from a number of submitters about property rights, about access to democracy, about democratic accountability, and about regional representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is relating to how does he see the evolution of these committees going from what I\u2019m sure he thinks is a laudable, principled approach to morphing into hugely powerful, expensive, administratively cumbersome red-tape bureaucracies in their own right. I\u2019m very concerned that the potential here is that the intent that the Minister seeks to achieve from the creation of these regional planning committees and the work and breadth that they are required to do will actually, over a period of time, become self-fulfilling bureaucracies in their own way. They will employ staff, they will have chief executives, they will have secretariats, they\u2019ll have legal advisers, they\u2019ll have consultants, and the opportunity for endless extra cost on and burdens on ratepayers will be, in my view, very large. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make relates to regional representation, and I\u2019ll use an example from my own electorate in the Coromandel. Now, we\u2019re told that there are going to be 16 of these committees, and my part of the world, the Coromandel, is always usually aligned with the Waikato region, although parts of it fall into the Bay of Plenty Regional Council area as well. We already feel, in the Coromandel, that our decisions and life impacts are already too Hamilton-centric by way of these things. We already feel\u2014notwithstanding the good people of Hamilton\u2014that often decisions that are made in Hamilton bear very little real relevance to what occurs on the Coromandel. We\u2019ve seen instances of that most recently as a result of weather events that have occurred this year, where we get regional decisions made in Hamilton or even Tauranga, Bay of Plenty, that have a direct impact on the peninsula that bear little or no relevance to the physical situation that people of the Coromandel Peninsula find themselves in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my questions to the Minister relate to how can he be sure that there will be adequate and proper regional representation; how can he be sure that these committees are not going to morph into bureaucratic monsters of their own making that have little or no democratic accountability; and how is he going to make sure that the vast array of rules, regulations, and materials that must be taken into account are actually going to be achieved and fulfilled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002231f357df74764cf1aa4f1129be53c401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231f357df74764cf1aa4f1129be53c401\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In the same way as the Auckland Unitary Plan involved the bringing together of the plans of all of the prior cities including Auckland Central, Waitakere, Manukau, and the North Shore and other cities in Auckland, which was, essentially, left within the control of local government to do with an independent hearings panel hearing public submissions\u2014that\u2019s what will happen in the new process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESimon Court asked the question as to why we didn\u2019t just put this in the charge of the Ministry for the Environment. Well, that would be central government taking over local government processes. We\u2019re not doing that. We\u2019re still leaving it to local government, and I believe it will work. The key is that the first plans need to be well supported with some support from central government, not taking over the process but providing some monetary support for those that go first so that the ones that go first do it well and create good precedents for those that follow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee10b84dfca7482eb0374d6a84cdfb9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee10b84dfca7482eb0374d6a84cdfb9e\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I\u2019d just like to ask you a question around clause 102, \u201CWhat the plans must include\u201D. We know there\u2019s identifying the issues of importance to the region and national planning frameworks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EIn the select committee, we talked a lot about vegetables, and fruit also came into the conversation. I\u2019m trying to tie together the purpose of the bill, te Oranga o te Taiao, which we were told and explained how it leads to the wellbeing of the people. The discussions we had, for the Minister\u2019s reference, was that if we\u2019re going to put a planning regime in place where the land and the people are all going to be healthy, we\u2019re going to have to identify what we\u2019re going to be able to do with vegetables. We accept that there are environmental limits around agriculture and horticulture. I remember saying in committee one day that \u201Cyou can\u2019t compare the vast amount of dairy farming country to the small about of vegetable-growing land that sits around the country.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re all a bit concerned, in the committee, that we weren\u2019t going to have the ability to provide our people with cost-effective vegetables with the amount of, I guess, regulation and red tape and limits that we put on our vegetable growers for a very small area of New Zealand\u2014and so I\u2019m thinking that some things may have to give in respect of others. So I\u2019m trying to tie the purpose around the health of the environment and the people down to how this will work in reality in these communities, because vegetables have been identified by the committee as something that\u2019s critically important to the wellbeing of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3c1bdffe885499883f3ed8deb34490f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3c1bdffe885499883f3ed8deb34490f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with the member. The Government, of course, in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management gave some exceptions to that regime for vegetable growing. So that\u2019s evidence that this Government agrees with that principle. That is given effect to\u2014higher in the planning hierarchy through clause 58(g), which says \u201CThe national planning framework must \u2026 [enable a] supply of fresh fruit and vegetables.\u201D So we\u2019ve already covered that part in an earlier part of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u002203ea98769109417e967ad3f733d33c78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203ea98769109417e967ad3f733d33c78\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for allowing me to take this call on the Natural and Built Environment Bill. One of the items that we talked about last night was the reconciliation of iwi and hap\u016B with the plethora\u2014full of waka groups in the M\u0101ori political space. The Minister referred to the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities and incorporations and trusts and other things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EI just was mindful of clause 107, which are matters to which regional planning committees must have particular regard to any statement prepared by an iwi authority or groups that represent hap\u016B in a region. I wonder how that can be reconciled, on one hand, through the National M\u0101ori Entity provisions the Minister talked about, including a whole bunch of other groups that aren\u2019t iwi and hap\u016B, groups that don\u2019t have the ancestral responsibilities of upholding the kawa and tikanga, unlike iwi members, and making sure that those groups have participation representation; but, on the other hand, with clause\u00A0107(1)(d), actually we don\u2019t have any care or concern for those groups at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ESo, on one hand, we\u2019ve got iwi and hap\u016B at the apex of the consideration\u2014these would be clause 5, clause 6, clause 4, and then the National M\u0101ori Entity, which seems to account for every man and his M\u0101ori\u2014and then, on the other side, comes clause 107(1)(d). Actually, those people\u2014federation M\u0101ori authorities, incorporations and trusts\u2014that hold the ownership interests in these lands are again shunted and invisibilised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe other item that I thought I\u2019d draw attention to is the various materials and provisions around customary marine titles and customary rights. We won\u2019t forget that mass confiscation that took place with the foreshore and seabed legislation many years ago, but what we can say is that right now the assertion of the customary marine rights, or customary marine titles, has not necessarily been sealed through an award. So these provisions around customary marine titles, marine rights, are actually very premature to the assertion of those rights and the actual sealing or award of those rights through the M\u0101ori Land Court process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe last thing I heard, in my former occupation, when I came here, was that some of those customary marine title, marine rights, applications would not be heard until 2045. I would like to know how we can reconcile that, from the Minister. Thank you very much. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022555e467564dc4075b9e7920100ccfef2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022555e467564dc4075b9e7920100ccfef2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the first point, under clause 107(1), iwi management plans or statements prepared by iwi authorities or groups that express their view is how te Oranga o te Taiao can be upheld. They, effectively, have to be in writing. This will actually improve the efficiency of the system. It is an outlet. It is one of the matters that needs to be taken into account. Iwi management plans are currently prepared and have some weight under the existing system as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issue about a marine and coastal area, takutai moana Act rights, I covered that in relation to the last part. The principle is the same here and that is that those rights prevail. Those rights already exist, even if they sometimes have not already been elucidated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002208da7631ddc24f84b5f8bb184dfe741a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208da7631ddc24f84b5f8bb184dfe741a\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Last night, the Minister referred to the fact that the bill significantly improves the provisions around notification providing clearer direction. If I could just ask the Minister, in terms of the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) in his name, it makes a number of changes around how plans deal with notification of activities. In the bill, as recommended by the Environment Committee, there were criteria in clause 108E on pages\u00A0153\u00A0and\u00A0154 about what the regional planning committee must take into account when deciding whether certain activities should be non-notified\u2014i.e., the public doesn\u2019t get an opportunity to make submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn the Minister\u2019s SOP, those provisions appear to have gone, and clauses 108E and 108F have been significantly changed. So I just wonder if the Minister could provide some comment on that and whether it reduces the scope for notification by removing those criteria for non-notification, or whether this is simply improving and clarifying these provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfcb882c200047389f13483cef4ae86c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfcb882c200047389f13483cef4ae86c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised by officials that the provisions have just been moved; they haven\u2019t been deleted, so they\u2019re still in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278e6451db1094e7fb8df3b98788c2c6c\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227ff6ec0295974ec296b16e96a6d32d22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ff6ec0295974ec296b16e96a6d32d22\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, not yet, but I am mindful of\u2014I\u2019m listening for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1a4c5a5466a4a9da83ef8e4f23ecc39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1a4c5a5466a4a9da83ef8e4f23ecc39\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a just a note, an observation. There was a comment made two minutes ago that those customary rights exist, but unless they are in a marine space, unless they are recognised and the subject of a declaration by the M\u0101ori Land Court, I find it very irreconcilable if those rights can actually be accounted for by way of the legislation and the decision makers\u2019 actions in making decisions under the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIf it is expected that decision makers have to be aware that those customary rights exist and build them into their decision-making processes even though they have not been declared through the Maori Land Court or through the High Court by way of another judicial pathway, then how can a decision maker under this legislation actually take account of those or implement those? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EI find that very inconsistent, and I\u2019d like to know from the Minister how a decision maker can implement or take account of a right that hasn\u2019t been declared through the judicial process. Otherwise, we get into a very difficult space, \u00E0 la the Nelson Tenths litigation, where there has been an assertion of rights but people do not want to recognise them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022eae579ea349244908dbfaf8205345324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eae579ea349244908dbfaf8205345324\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s not what I said. What I said was that for a customary right to be found to exist under takutai moana legislation, it must be found by the court to exist. It\u2019s not creating new rights; it\u2019s actually recognising rights that the courts find have not been extinguished and therefore will be recognised and carried forward. At the point they are elucidated, the system protects them. But the member is quite right\u2014you can\u2019t know what you don\u2019t know, and this legislation doesn\u2019t say anything to the contrary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00220743bd09115a4720afbbf9b5e1064cea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220743bd09115a4720afbbf9b5e1064cea\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I want to come to Subpart 3, \u201CRules in plans\u201D. That\u2019s on page 160, clause 117, \u201CPurpose and effect of rules\u201D: \u201C(1) The purpose of including rules in a plan is to enable a local authority\u2014(a) to carry out its functions under [this] Act;\u201D. So as the member, Chris Bishop, rightly pointed out before, this legislation is intimately related to the functions of local authorities and \u201C(b)\u00A0to provide for \u2026 directions given by \u2026 [the] national planning framework; and (c) \u2026 [for] policies specified in the plan to be achieved.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, Minister, if we can come to clause 117(6), the plan has to identify activities as permitted, anticipated, discretionary, or prohibited. And what we saw, Minister, with the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management that was originally proposed\u2014or was it the National Environmental Standards for Freshwater management? It\u2019s all very confusing, all of this red tape and regulation, particularly as it applies to farmers and particularly as it applies to resource developers and those organisations wanting to stand up quarries to provide building materials for construction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIf a national policy statement or some kind of national direction prohibits an activity on certain land, whether it\u2019s by applying a significant natural area overlay based on an aerial photographs of somebody\u2019s back paddock, which someone somewhere sees might have some kind of significant indigenous biodiversity on it, or whether it\u2019s three bulrushes in a paddock, which was the issue that tripped up so many organisations and property owners looking to develop quarries or develop land for housing when the freshwater rules were first put out because three bulrushes in a paddock pretty much amounted to a wetland. So, Minister, how are communities, businesses, and property owners meant to get ahead in their area, in their district, if a national instrument that\u2019s then incorporated in a natural and built environment plan actually prohibits something that they need to do for the economic benefit of their community? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I heard yesterday, from a contractor, that in the Wellington region there is no suitable place for contractors to dump clean fill. That is, soil material that comes from a construction project, and in winter it\u2019s more than likely that it\u2019s saturated material. You can\u2019t recycle it and take it somewhere and use it for another development; you\u2019ve just got to get rid of it. In construction, we call it \u201Ccut to waste\u201D, and that material is defined as engineering-unsuitable. Well, it certainly was in Transit New Zealand\u2019s definitions when I studied highway engineering. But in the Wellington region, there are no clean-fill sites, so contractors are hauling to Marton to tip at a landfill there. That\u2019s because even though clean fills aren\u2019t prohibited in the Wellington region, it\u2019s become very, very difficult to consent things under the current regional council because of the freshwater rules and the prohibition on disturbing these things called wetlands, which, you know, was corrected by the Ministry for the Environment (MFE) with three bulrushes in a paddock. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, how are communities, how are businesses, how are infrastructure operators supposed to actually get on with building and building in a cost-effective way when activities that might be prohibited mean that you can\u2019t even apply for a consent for it. We know that happened in Auckland. There was a clean-fill operator north of Auckland, in the East Coast Bays, that sought to extend their clean-fill operation for a period of additional years and additional hectares on their existing site, and when those freshwater rules prohibiting disturbing any wetlands came in, they were told, \u201CYou can\u2019t do it.\u201D They were told by the Auckland Council, \u201CDon\u2019t apply, because it\u2019s prohibited now and we can\u2019t even accept your application across the counter.\u201D That was clearly wrong because MFE came back and changed that, to modify that rule to allow for some developments\u2014extremely limited developments\u2014where they might impact a wetland, even though the wetland, in that property owner\u2019s case, was a constructed wetland by a former landowner. Of course, we know that every time you build a new road, a new motorway, there are wetlands built all along the corridor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, how are we supposed to get ahead when if an activity is defined as prohibited at a national level, but it turns out we need to do it at a local level, we won\u2019t be able to do it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223e85b9ac6097493780ac0ec5ee502086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e85b9ac6097493780ac0ec5ee502086\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I agree that there is a level of discretion required in respect of those activities. The member will be aware that I was responsible for the regulation intended to protect wetlands from desecration because we\u2019ve already lost more than 90 percent of our wetlands, even including those in national parks. We introduced strict rules to stop the balance of 10 percent being lost because, in the prior 10 years, a 20th of the remaining 10 percent had been lost. We went a bit far and therefore we did have to modify the rule to make it permissible for quarries and landfills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the member is right that care is necessary around those issues. How does the new system guard against those sorts of mistakes being made again? In part, through the spatial planning legislation requiring spatial plans to identify where infrastructure is likely to be needed. It could be partly achieved through that, and in part through the pro-infrastructure provisions of the national planning framework, and in part through the provisions of the Act that give a leg up to necessary infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00225a287286cf264b30ab3eb51b3e8c1648\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a287286cf264b30ab3eb51b3e8c1648\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I want to come now to clause 118, \u201CRules about discharges\u201D. Now, there are already existing provisions in the Resource Management Act around discharges. For those listening on 882 AM or watching on Parliament TV, what we\u2019re talking about is when a business or undertaking, whether it be a manufacturing operation, say, turning tomatoes from the tomato orchard into canned goods, or whether it\u2019s a business that is manufacturing, say, concrete products from cement and aggregate\u2014a discharge from that activity, to land or into water, is already regulated and already requires consents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe last thing we want in New Zealand is for businesses or people using their land to use it in a way that pollutes the natural environment, the commons\u2014the common resource that our Government and that our local authorities should be protecting for all of our benefits. Discharges to land, private land, and to waterways actually have an impact on people downstream.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut, Minister, I\u2019m interested in some of the text here, and particularly on page 161, clause 118(2). It talks about none of these effects should arise when a plan includes provision for discharges. We must accept that every business or undertaking that makes something has some kind of output that either comes out the factory gate as a finished good or that goes out of a pipe or into a pond to treat any contaminants that come out at the back end of the process. That\u2019s normal manufacturing process in New Zealand. But if we look at clause 118(2)(b), \u201Ca conspicuous change in the colour or visual clarity:\u201D, then the requirement is that none of these effects are likely to arise\u2014and that\u2019s really interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI want to give an example, Minister. Maybe if we can contrast what happens naturally with what happens as a result of human activity, and how is it that a council or a planner is supposed to evaluate which one is OK and which one is isn\u2019t?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, if you travel through the Waikato, which I regularly do, you will see the great Waip\u0101 River. The Waip\u0101 River drains a catchment of highly erodible soils, which means that the Waip\u0101 River naturally has a much higher sediment load than the Waikato River, which it discharges to. What that means is where you see the Waikato River and the Waip\u0101 River meet\u2014I think that\u2019s at Ng\u0101ruaw\u0101hia nearby\u2014you see a very turbid, sediment-laden water body entering the Waikato River and mixing, and downstream of that the natural colour is significantly changed. There is a \u201Cconspicuous change in colour\u201D and a \u201Cconspicuous change in visual clarity\u201D of the Waikato River downstream of where the Waip\u0101 River enters it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, again we saw, during the floods and storms of earlier this year, in January and February\u00A02023, enormous volumes of sediment eroded from all types of land uses, whether it was forestry or farming, or, of course, if you drive up the Napier-Taupo Highway, you will see, even in areas of what looked like untouched indigenous forest, very large slips\u2014very, very large slips\u2014because the underlying geology of those soils and of those rock types is very unstable. Enormous quantities of sediment being discharged to waterways and then to the coastal area. Of course, it reached all the way up to the continental shelf, where those sediments build up as a layer\u2014a thick, thick, thick layer\u2014that in the future, maybe tens or hundreds of millions of years from now, will be hard rock and uplifted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I want to know how a plan is supposed to account for rules about discharges, where many of the things that they propose to regulate are already happening at a much greater scale in the natural environment. If all of these things are decided in a plan, and you can\u2019t bring your evidence to court and say, \u201CHey, actually, our discharge is not too different from a natural discharge.\u201D, how on earth are businesses supposed to get ahead and prove they can operate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225ef50026c88f45f08bbd60af407c6f9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ef50026c88f45f08bbd60af407c6f9d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E As I think the member well knows, that\u2019s not what this rule is about. It\u2019s about discharges to water, not the mixing of existing waters, which, as the member records, is a common occurrence, whether it\u2019s the rivers he talks about or the Clutha River or the Kawarau River down south. This is about contaminants being discharged by human activity or practices, and after a reasonable mixing zone, is there conspicuous oil or grease, and is there a conspicuous change in colour caused by those discharges?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab4998b5fca34a518d4e983d2d93a664\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab4998b5fca34a518d4e983d2d93a664\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6356352961f448b8b6a7e407c00edc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6356352961f448b8b6a7e407c00edc7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ac56bcb0b034d11bff753fb97d08b23\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297c9db836bf24739a187a25f38061ce1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will not interrupt the Chair when I am ruling. Tama Potaka will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ffe7c1c8e124f89b4fde3a3f497f344\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bc92da1d0c6438ebf84fd31af8faa76\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll put it again: the question is that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e27634e27ac141bca470fe167a9e67ea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229d61e3553d04460a982405a95a267cf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d61e3553d04460a982405a95a267cf0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 389 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221a5b7644b5774ba7af187c8897b2d149\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002230f095a1f1c74d76bf49dd0261daff09\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002237025338584248beab36d5384ba236a5\u0022\u003EPart 5  Resource consenting and proposals of national significance \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224ebd0864c29a478cbef599ce401235f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ebd0864c29a478cbef599ce401235f1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 5, the debate on clauses 152AAA to 303, \u201CResource consenting and proposals of national significance\u201D, including Schedules 10 and 10A. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc4727578eed41a3b279007c15a519d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc4727578eed41a3b279007c15a519d4\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to get back into the Chamber after a brief interlude, but I want to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3edc30f67b94c3c85c0ad1ff8d04e3f\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Welcome back, Stuart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263fcf9cf5ad44c1b86489b137c359725\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014focus\u2014oh, thank you very much. I want to focus on clause 157, \u201CConsent authority may permit activity by waiving compliance with certain requirements, conditions, or permissions\u201D. So in clause 157(1), it says \u201CAn activity is a permitted activity if (a) the activity would be a permitted activity except for a marginal or temporary non-compliance with requirements, conditions, and permissions specified in this Act, the national planning framework, or a plan; and (b) any adverse environmental effects of the activity are no different in character, intensity, or scale than they would be in the absence of the marginal or temporary non-compliance referred to in paragraph (a)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo what is \u201Ctemporary\u201D? That\u2019s not defined, as far as I can see. If we\u2019re talking about geological time, you know, our time on earth is less than a second. If we\u2019re talking about, you know, of course, the time for an insect, well, a second is half a lifetime almost. So we need to know what that marginal or temporary non-compliance is. We understand what non-compliance is, but we want to know what the temporary or marginal means in this context, because it\u2019s quite important for many activities, actually. Water takes, for example, only have a marginal effect on a river, or, indeed, an aquifer. It\u2019s only a marginal effect. That\u2019s probably been the biggest issue with allocating resources on a first come, first served basis, where one straw has very little impact on the camel\u2019s back, but the last one causes a problem, and then you\u2019ve got to go back and assess how that matter can be mitigated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022924c8f621d1941329cfe525e6a0cf112\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: A bit like the Labour Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa39f95c2d5f429fa5dff50866bb743d\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The straws are falling, though. They\u2019re not going on the back; they\u2019re falling. Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo it is important that we know what marginal and temporary non-compliance is. So I\u2019m hoping that that is referred to somewhere else within the Act, and I\u2019m sure the Minister\u2019s looking it up, so I look forward to his answer. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1a44cfad2f74dda8f303e961d081113\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1a44cfad2f74dda8f303e961d081113\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised by officials that this is a carry-over of section 87BB in the Resource Management Act, and it covers the situation where there is some temporary event that, if it were long term, would require a consent. But this provision allows the council to exercise their discretion and actually treat it as a part of the permitted activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd987eb8f5504b51aa2d5b04beec22c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd987eb8f5504b51aa2d5b04beec22c3\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that\u2019s helpful, but the council\u2019s discretion still doesn\u2019t actually define what \u201Ctemporary\u201D is. Is that one year, one week, 10\u00A0years, or 10 weeks? I know that 10 years is ridiculous, but there\u2019s nothing to define that as far as your explanation that you gave. It didn\u2019t enlighten us on that. So if you could be a bit more specific about that. Why isn\u2019t it actually in the legislation to more tightly define what marginal or temporary is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002285e67aaee04b4f7bb1665c8e56942137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285e67aaee04b4f7bb1665c8e56942137\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E It relies upon a factual assessment by the council, as it does under the current legislation. To set that in a specific way would be rigid and could either be too onerous in respect of some less consequential entities and not onerous enough in respect of some more contentious activities, so the issue is left to a factual assessment by the councils to do practically as it is under section\u00A087BB in the existing Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00223c9972390a484c148eadf8c8061c8b3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c9972390a484c148eadf8c8061c8b3f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Part\u00A05 is quite an important part because, amongst other things, it sets in place what is the fast-track consenting process\u2014that\u2019s in clause 152AAA(1), but it then goes on to refer to Schedule 10A, and 10A is quite a long schedule: Part 2 of Schedule 10A describes in significant detail the fast-track consenting process, and I\u2019ve got to say that if there is one part of this proposed legislation that we think is a good idea, then it\u2019s this. But my concern is that, notwithstanding the provision for a fast-tracked consenting process, if members of the public were to take a look at the Schedule 10A, it still looks like a really complicated process with lots of hoops to jump through, lots of things to take into account, and an awful lot of rules that surround that process. So my question to the Minister is: how can he be sure that this concept of a fast-track consenting process that is set out in Part 2 of Schedule 10A is going to be as effective as he might hope it would be, and given the rules and red tape and prescriptive nature of Schedule 10A, how can he be sure that \u201Cfast\u201D actually means fast; that the process of consenting can be quick and efficient, not too costly, and available when is necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2a3e5da22024c529b5c4cb11794b1d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2a3e5da22024c529b5c4cb11794b1d9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Because the public can rely upon the record of the Labour Party as being the infrastructure party that have not just funded infrastructure. We\u2019ve consented infrastructure up and down the country in a way that the prior Government could never achieve, including, through the passage through this Parliament, the fast-track legislation in response to COVID\u2014which this is based on\u2014through which we have proven that fast track has, on average, taken 15 months out of the consenting process, sped up consents, and saved money. Now, how do you do that? You actually do need to have some parameters around when you can and can\u2019t use it, and if you do use it, how you deal with the matter. Essentially, those matters are normally dealt with on the papers, therefore you have to prescribe what papers have to be presented to the panel that takes the consent decision and who has a right of input to make sure that you are changing the process rather than the underlying environmental test, because fast track, under this Government, has not changed the environmental test\u2014it\u2019s just made their process more efficient. That carries on into the new system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAt the moment, fast track under the COVID legislation has expired. Interesting to hear from ACT and National parties saying that they\u2019re going to repeal this legislation, because fast track goes with it, too. The only additional suggestions I\u2019ve had in respect of fast track from the National Party are to put everything through fast track; that would make it slow track because the system would gum up, and additionally, fast track is not appropriate for every proposal\u2014there are some things that are so contentious that actually public rights of input, including at public hearings through normal processes, should be preserved. There are other process tracks for those sorts of things, including direct referral to the Environment Court or to the Environmental Protection Agency, where public hearings are held.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002289515f885296401bafca0f739256612e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289515f885296401bafca0f739256612e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister makes a great point: wouldn\u2019t it be great if we could fast track every consent application? But, of course, it is important to balance the rights of neighbours and communities affected by, say, traffic movements, dust, and noise from a development, or overlooking\u2014if someone wants to build three storeys of three units one metre from your boundary, the ACT Party thinks that it is helpful to have a process to engage with your neighbours. That\u2019s why ACT has actually proposed an alternative, in our solutions for building New Zealand and conserving nature, which would provide for just that. But, Minister, I just want to ask you a few questions about the fast track and how it will work\u2014the proposals of national significance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EA couple of years ago, Port of Tauranga applied for their wharf extension to go into the fast-track process, and a decision was taken to decline their application to participate in the fast-track process even though their wharf extension was not out into the harbour but actually alongside an existing peninsular of land that they already occupied. Port of Tauranga made the point that they will be very soon constrained in the number of containers they can process. They are currently New Zealand\u2019s largest export port, particularly supporting the fruit-growing, dairy, and sheep and beef sectors, and all of the high-tech manufacturing that goes on in the Bay of Plenty and the Waikato region\u2014and Auckland to a certain extent; that exports through Port of Tauranga. But their application to enter the fast-track process was declined, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI know you\u2019re aware of this, because in the decision making\u2014and I think you replied to a written question that I put to you in relation to this, and I\u2019ll just have to paraphrase because it was some time ago\u2014the consideration was to exclude them even though the environmental effects could be acceptable, given that, essentially, they\u2019re just building a concrete dock alongside their existing land, as opposed to out into the harbour, to allow for the largest containerships that will soon be coming, with 10,000 twenty-foot equivalent unit vessels, double the size of the containerships currently coming to New Zealand. They need the capacity. But there is a marae across the harbour, which looks at the port and which in previous years has been surrounded by industrial activities, including fertiliser manufacturing, hydrocarbons, petrochemicals\u2014manufacturing of all kinds\u2014and that marae now sits almost isolated, surrounded by industrial activities with major roads going around it, with their view of the port and its activities as their primary outlook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI understand, from looking into it, Minister, that that marae has felt that their interests haven\u2019t been addressed, or past wrongs haven\u2019t been addressed through the Treaty settlement process, and that they feel they have to object to Port of Tauranga\u2019s proposal because they don\u2019t see any other way of getting redress for the way that their marae and the papa k\u0101inga housing on that marae has been impacted by industrial activities next door and, of course, the port, which is a vital piece of infrastructure in operation. So, while the people who live in the papa k\u0101inga housing in the marae and the hap\u016B who are responsible for it have a genuine issue with the quality of the environment that they are forced to endure and all of the development that\u2019s gone on around them, that doesn\u2019t change the fact it\u2019s happened and that the port needs to expand. So, by rejecting Port of Tauranga from the COVID-19 fast-track application process, that actually indicated that some of these primary hurdles to infrastructure development, namely the veto of a group of people who might have a legitimate concern but which can\u2019t possibly be addressed through this resource management process, will still continue to have a right of veto over major infrastructure projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, would you care to explain to the committee and to people listening how that might be resolved through this process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002236bb1cde539a4fc0a4aa48d89c6a6d1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236bb1cde539a4fc0a4aa48d89c6a6d1d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I\u2019m happy to. For a start, I would say there are some things that shouldn\u2019t be able to go through fast track. People with an understanding of the history of New Zealand would, I think, understand that raising Lake Manap\u014Duri, as happened historically, shouldn\u2019t go through fast track, nor should the high dam at Clyde\u2014nor, in my opinion, should other hydro projects go through fast track. And that\u2019s why the fast-track system here actually says you can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c57135e861e044e3a2374c8ec41c8fe0\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Lake Onslow!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226e61f94059843fdb8cef9a3ac3ac96b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, Lake Onslow shouldn\u2019t be able to go through fast track either. It should be able to go through a direct referral to the Environment Court through some other process, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295304a16c1114447bb5855c012aa6f3b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: You legislated for it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f61403811894f0b9fa34a8b79124e31\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no. The legislation says there are some things that shouldn\u2019t be able to access the fast track, because people have got a right to a say. And we don\u2019t actually need a lot more hydro, so we shouldn\u2019t be putting that through under a fast-track process. All other infrastructure can apply to go through fast track, including renewable electricity for geothermal, wind, and solar, and including port structures such as the member Simon Court mentioned. There is still a right of a decision maker to say some of these things ought not to go through the fast track. I\u2019ve been the decision maker in respect of that under the COVID response fast track, but similar provisions are carried forward under the new fast-track provision in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EHow have I exercised those discretions? Well, that\u2019s been a matter for me as Minister, as it will be a future Minister, but one of the things I\u2019ve done is protect the reputation of the fast track by not using it unwisely. And that does rely upon a degree of political judgment as to when events ought to go through with a public hearing. I\u2019ve only done that on a few occasions. The Tauranga port was one of them. The Mount Crawford developments were another here, where there were gondola and commercial developments proposed for a peninsular that I thought people should have a right of participation in in the normal manner. It doesn\u2019t happen all that often; it does happen some times. How else do you remedy these issues for the longer term through the country, or in the medium term through the country? You do it through the Spatial Planning Act. The Spatial Planning Act could say, \u201CLook, when traffic volumes and freight volumes increase in New Zealand, we need to expand the port capacity in Tauranga.\u201D That could be foreshadowed in a regional spatial strategy and could actually flow through to a district and regional plan as actually a permitted activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo, in the future, that port extension could well actually become a permitted activity. It may not do, but it might do\u2014it might do. It might be a trigger. Those are issues for the future; they can be worked through through local communities, because there would be people at that marae who would no doubt, in respect of the plan change, come along and says, \u201CWe don\u2019t think it should be a permitted activity.\u201D They\u2019d have the right to do that, and that would be for the regional planning committee to decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6323d63d02042bb96f309ada557dbbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6323d63d02042bb96f309ada557dbbc\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I was indicating interest but I thought you were going to call my colleague, but I\u2019ll just make a brief contribution. The first point is to say\u2014well, we welcome the Minister\u2019s reassurance that Lake Onslow is not going to go through the fast track. [Interruption] Well, the Minister\u2019s saying we can\u2019t. I think the key point is it will never get consented, Minister. There\u2019s not a person in the country who thinks Lake Onslow is consentable, other than, maybe, Megan Woods, I think. No, the Minister doesn\u2019t think it\u2019s contestable. Oh, David Parker is saying he thinks it\u2019s consentable. Having railed against the Clyde Dam and having spent\u2014and I\u2019ve heard the Minister waxing lyrical on many occasions about the injustice of the empowering Act and the constitutional outrage and the environmental effects and all the rest of, with some degree of justification, and having spent a fair degree of his political career raging against that, he\u2019s now saying to the House, alongside Megan Woods, that Lake Onslow, the biggest white elephant boondoggle ever known in New Zealand political history, is consentable. I think that\u2019s fanciful. The reality is the project will never happen. It will never happen. It is never going to get built, and if it does happen, it will have to be direct-legislated by Parliament. Anyway, that\u2019s not really the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe point I wanted to make\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b85490d57d74668a8f4f656eef2494b\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, find a point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb7642f8775d43f095c1c718991f14d7\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, it\u2019s important. You are going to spend 30 billion bucks apparently, so let\u2019s maybe have a few minutes\u2019 discussion around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe point I wanted to make was in relation to the national significance pathway. Has the Government considered giving the power to call in matters that are part of national proposal or referring the matters to a court of inquiry\u2014the Environment Court? Has the Government considered making the Minister for Infrastructure the relevant Minister for proposals? I think people are worried that the Minister for the Environment is conflicted, and, look, this is a debate that could go both ways. But I just want to know from the Minister what advice or consideration the Government gave to making the Minister for Infrastructure or, potentially, in some cases, the Minister of Transport, actually, the relevant Minister for that decision-making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00228c1430275da24c7db5d9adffb46769b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c1430275da24c7db5d9adffb46769b3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Although it hasn\u2019t been reconsidered recently in respect of the Natural and Built Environment Bill, we did actually consider who should be the relevant Minister when the original COVID powers fast-tracked legislation was passed\u2014the COVID response fast track. We also considered whether it should be Cabinet, and in the end, Cabinet thought that you need to give it to a Minister who will do it efficiently, and the Minister for the Environment supported by the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA), and the Ministry for the Environment, I think, has done that efficiently. If you gave it across to another ministry you\u2019d have multiple ministries having responsibilities for these things, to administer it. Actually, it\u2019s worked well with the Ministry for the Environment and the EPA and in future the EPA doing this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe process already requires other Ministers\u2019 opinions to be sought as to whether it should go fast track, so those opinions aren\u2019t brought to bear and are outed and the record is also clear in the Cabinet paper that, as associated at least under the current process with an Order in Council, those matters are clear from the public record and so there\u2019s political accountability. So I would recommend against having more than one department or agency responsible for fast track, although, obviously, more than one Minister or ministry has an interest in decisions made pursuant to that pathway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00223b332e50f3184d86b115a7c7d9b5a4e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b332e50f3184d86b115a7c7d9b5a4e5\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It is indeed good news that Lake Onslow won\u2019t go ahead. Mr Parker, the Minister, said it wouldn\u2019t go through fast-track, anyway. Well, it seems that he hasn\u2019t been talking to the Minister of Conservation, because when I asked through written questions about why the permits for the groundwork to be done on it, which had to be received from the Department of Conservation, were done in what was world record time\u2014world record time for those consents to go through\u2014and when I asked further why that was, it was because it was seen as national significance, this project. I asked how that was assessed, but all I got was a fair bit of duck-shoving around and no answer. So, clearly, one part of the Government doesn\u2019t share the same view as the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248794855461949948afea429288bf62b\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: The left hand doesn\u2019t know what the left hand\u2019s doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a5906113959413c92dcd3a70fd42eaa\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct. But I want to go on to clause 158A, \u201CSpecified prohibited activities\u201D. It says the following activities are prohibited activities: \u201C(a)\u00A0prospecting, exploring, or mining for Crown owned minerals in the internal waters of the Coromandel Peninsula;\u201D\u2014fair enough; \u201C(b) mining of which the main purpose is to mine mercury.\u201D That\u2019s fair enough as well. But then under subclause (2): \u201CSubsection (1)(a) does not apply to prospecting, exploring, or mining activities set out in section 61(1A) of the Crown Minerals Act 1991.\u201D. That particular section 61 is access arrangements in respect of Crown land and land in common marine and coastal areas, and (1A) is in initial access arrangement in relation to tier 2 permits. Now, tier 2 permits, I\u2019m sure you\u2019d be interested to know, is in section 2B of the Crown Minerals Act. In this Act, tier 2 means a permit that is not a tier 1 permit. If you look at the tier 1 permit, it\u2019s all laid out in the parts above. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThere seems to be a sort of a circular argument here. You can\u2019t have a tier 1 permit\u2014a tier 2 permit is just on a tier 1 permit. There\u2019s no real definition of that. So that seems to be somewhat circular. Can the Minister enlighten us on that please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c01f281769a149c4bcedf6be7162ad35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c01f281769a149c4bcedf6be7162ad35\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I can. It\u2019s a straight carryover of section 87B of the Resource Management Act, which sets out some areas where around the Coromandel prospecting and mining is not allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022abec7e3cb7bd427c832eed3f76e6a25d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abec7e3cb7bd427c832eed3f76e6a25d\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it\u2019s a carryover from an Act that doesn\u2019t work very well, into a bill that\u2019s going to be even worse. That\u2019s not really an explanation as to why it is there. Just because it was there before doesn\u2019t mean it was the right thing. It seems circular. It says a tier 2 permit is anything that is not in tier 1. So what is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c707416bc84847679edcec9a8d9a172c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c707416bc84847679edcec9a8d9a172c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E It is not circular. It does work, as evidenced by the fact that the prior Government didn\u2019t change that provision in the nine years they were in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00220b2a04f4ba28486cbbc9830005c1d70c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b2a04f4ba28486cbbc9830005c1d70c\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cde3886dfb49410dbf69a1b892226165\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9eec75736a6440c9f350c3a89236a6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9eec75736a6440c9f350c3a89236a6f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendments to clauses 164, 223, and 276 of Supplementary Order Paper 389 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c028782b12c465194264ceab6d504ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227349c036ac0e4cd7b8b3fbd6ca6676d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227349c036ac0e4cd7b8b3fbd6ca6676d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 389 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002233182386edfd4cde87aea88926527909\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002209f250b61cb94c2fb4fdce869ff4f72a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209f250b61cb94c2fb4fdce869ff4f72a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court\u2019s amendment to clause\u00A0276(3)(b)(vi) set out on Supplementary Order Paper 387 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendment to clause 276(3)(c) set out on Supplementary Order Paper 388 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b2b961c9b838444bbd3fd1784bac9f5d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c519ade72d6049c8829c55473431e1f4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a32b9d81353849588c41cf3ca40fb69e\u0022\u003EPart 6  Management of particular resources and areas\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5ba40e9cbef4afa8e3cb65997ebcbbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5ba40e9cbef4afa8e3cb65997ebcbbc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 6. This is the debate on clauses 378 to 427Y, \u201CManagement of particular resources and areas\u201D, including Schedules 3 and 5. The question is that Part 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9859d5c89f44fc7bb62f576cd08f8b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9859d5c89f44fc7bb62f576cd08f8b2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, this is another part of the proposed legislation that has quite a lot of meat and detail in it. Subpart 1 relates to water conservation orders, and there\u2019s quite a bit of detail in there. Much of it is carried over from existing legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut when we come to clause 402, the requirement for farms to have a certified freshwater farm plan if it meets land threshold use, there are a range of matters there. It has to be 20 or more hectares, 5 or more hectares of the land is under horticulture, 20 or more hectares of the farm is under pastoral land use, a prescribed area of the farm under agricultural use prescribed in regulations made under section 411, or 20 or more hectares of the farm is under a combination of any two or more of the land uses described above.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo this requirement to have, essentially, freshwater farm plans is one of the issues that is foremost in the minds of many farmers up and down the countryside. Farming is an area that has been the focus of an awful lot of red tape, rules, and regulations under this current Government, and the requirement for freshwater farm plans is just another piece of red tape that farmers have to comply with under this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, I don\u2019t think that there are any farmers that would say they want worse fresh water in their catchment area, that they want the water quality to be worse, but it\u2019s a question of balance. Much of this part, particularly in relation to freshwater farm plans, goes into the detail of what the plan must include. So clause 404, \u201CContents of freshwater farm plan (1) A freshwater farm plan must (a) identify any\u201D\u2014any\u2014\u201Cadverse effects of activities carried out on the farm on freshwater and freshwater ecosystems\u201D. And further, it must \u201Cspecify requirements that (i) are appropriate for the purpose of avoiding, [minimising, or] remedying \u2026 adverse effects of those activities on freshwater and freshwater ecosystems; and (ii) are clear and measurable; and (c) demonstrate how any freshwater farm plan outcomes prescribed in the regulations are to be achieved; and (d)\u00A0comply with any other requirements in the regulations [made under clause 411].\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo therein lies the rub, that those thresholds, in terms of identifying any adverse effects of activities carried out on the farm on fresh water; it\u2019s actually a very high threshold. It\u2019s arguable that just about any human activity and just about any farming activity will have an effect. It\u2019s debateable whether that effect will be adverse and what the impact of the adverse effect will be in terms of quantum and what the cost and mitigating impacts will be, should that adverse effect have to be nullified, removed, or remediated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister in relation to freshwater farm plans is: is he confident that he has the settings right in terms of a sector that is already under intense regulatory control but has seen a massive increase in requirements for compliance in a whole range of areas, of which this is just another? What assurance can he give farmers that that the work, effort, and time associated with complying with freshwater farm plans is going to be commensurate with the environmental outcomes? I\u2019m keen to know how the farm plans are going to be monitored. So if the Minister could address issues relating specifically to the freshwater farm plans, I\u2019d appreciate his discussion on those matters, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf2f5728af504dd680956f8d5f2449f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf2f5728af504dd680956f8d5f2449f1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In the process that the country has gone through to try and arrest the decline in our freshwater bodies, particularly our rivers and streams, the agricultural sector and councils came to central government and said, \u201CLook, you can overregulate this space. Rules-based regulation through national policy statements and national environment standards can get too specific and unwieldy.\u201D They said, \u201CWe would prefer a farm planning regime.\u201D, which is why the amendments made to the Resource Management Act (RMA) to enable a freshwater farm plan regime are to, effectively, in the future be a substitute for some of the rules that you\u2019d otherwise need in district plans or national direction. So that was inserted into the RMA about three years ago now, and this is largely a carry-over of it. It has, actually, broad support from regional councils and many agricultural bodies. The agricultural bodies like Fonterra, some of the industry, good organisations that work in the horticultural sector, and Beef \u002B Lamb, for example, wanted to ensure that the existing freshwater farm plan components that they have in their plans\u2014already required of their suppliers, in the case of Fonterra\u2014could be transitioned into the new system, and they are being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe only real change here in the Supplementary Order Paper is shown on page 278, to the clause that the member identified, clause 402, at new subclause (1)(a). That\u2019s actually as a consequence of a request that Federated Farmers made of me. The arable sector came to me and said, \u201CLook, the example where this is already working really well is in Canterbury.\u201D, and this is largely modelled on what\u2019s happening in Canterbury, where freshwater farm plans are already in place. He said that in Canterbury they started with the larger farms and then moved to the smaller ones, and that if they had started with all farms at once, they would have suffered a backlash against the system, and they would have also lacked capacity in the service sector to service the needs of all of the farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo they recommended that further discretion be allowed in the system to change the land area thresholds pursuant to which you need to have a freshwater farm plan. So what that does is, effectively, allow regulations to be made by the Government to change those thresholds if a regional council, for example, comes to us and says, \u201CLook, this is just going a bit fast. We actually want to start with the bigger ones first, like they did in Canterbury.\u201D So this is actually a provision that has the support of Federated Farmers. Not a lot of this legislation does, but that particular provision is supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00227f15ea5e6e0942418059fae6f01ab6fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f15ea5e6e0942418059fae6f01ab6fa\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and appreciate the Minister\u2019s elucidation of those points because that\u2019s very helpful. I\u2019m keen to know whether the Minister sees whether a potential could develop over a period of time, where, because we have such a vast number of farms in the country, a range of different catchment areas, a range of different topographies, geology, farming practices, and such forth, it could develop that some kind of formulaic template emerges as a methodology for complying with the provisions of this part that would make it easier for farmers to comply with the requirements, but also more administratively efficient for the regional councils in terms of the records that they must keep in terms of clause 408. So I\u2019m interested to know what the Minister thinks may develop in terms of process around these freshwater farm plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221fc06c9fbbc84459bd15be58e40ca5a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fc06c9fbbc84459bd15be58e40ca5a6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Another fair point. Yes, we don\u2019t want this, on the one hand, to be so rigid that you drive everyone to a monopoly provider of services; we also don\u2019t want to be so rigid as to impose the same rules unnecessarily everywhere, even though they are not apposite to some areas. So the purpose of farm plans is to be flexible enough to deal with the issues faced by each farmer. For example, if you\u2019ve got a steep hill country and the problem of sediment eroding off steep faces that should be retired from heavy grazing pressure, that might be different to another area where the issues are nutrient flows from flat country intensive farming practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the system has to be flexible enough to allow for both of those possibilities. But the member\u2019s also right that you also want a degree of standardisation, so it\u2019s not everything\u2019s been done again, and I think the regulations allow for both of those things to be accommodated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002227f5a454722c42f38323308fb2d33ed7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227f5a454722c42f38323308fb2d33ed7\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I accept what the Minister is saying about the flexibility in and around it being that one size doesn\u2019t fit all and so we need to have some flexibility, but just on this Part 6, \u201CManagement of particular resources and areas\u201D, around water, it\u2019s been drawn to my attention lately around particularly not just irrigation\u2014and when people talk about irrigation or water storage, they often talk a lot about that being for dairy cows. I think we can assure the population that environmentally, that may have been a thing of the past, but it\u2019s not going to be the thing of the future, because it will be for, I guess, resilience to do with climate change. It will be for some small hydro production, it will be for perhaps some horticulture, or it will be for leisure\u2014there\u2019s a whole range of things that water can be used for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EBut the thing that\u2019s being brought to my attention around spatial planning is that if we don\u2019t get this right in our use of the water that we use, particularly for small mini-hydro plants that may service agricultural rural areas, those people in those areas might end up paying a lot of money for their electricity if it\u2019s going into a local grid, rather than if it\u2019s going into the grid and supplying the network. Therefore, the city dwellers may be better off than the rural dwellers when it comes to people spinning off small hydro schemes, and I guess\u2014let\u2019s face it\u2014we\u2019re past the days of Think Big, where we were going to have massive hydro schemes, and, hopefully, that includes Lake Onslow, so that we won\u2019t have that, either. But there will be a lot of ability to put some small schemes in place; it just seems like the playing field isn\u2019t even. So when we\u2019re talking about water allocation, it\u2019d be really good to put some thought into how that might become fair and equitable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227a42cdf0d6294c1fbe13d414eaaeb41d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a42cdf0d6294c1fbe13d414eaaeb41d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I will, given that Project Onslow has been raised a lot of times, just respond to some of the criticisms there. Now, Onslow needs to be conceived of as a mechanism to cover dry your risk and provide a hedge against intermittency for new renewables in a way that encourages market competition in the provision of new generation in New Zealand. Those who believe in the project, including the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and some very experienced people who have been involved in the electricity system for a long, long time\u2014like Dr Keith Turner, the former head of Meridian and the former head of Electricorp Generation way back when, and currently head of Transpower\u2014think that that is the greatest benefit. It will enable competition in renewable generation investments by international capital as well as New Zealand capital, because they will not be as reliant upon the tight four or five main generators at the moment to whom they have to look for a hedge against intermittency, and in a dry year, that\u2019s, effectively, Huntly, which drives up the prices of electricity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAnyway, I respond to that just to defend Onslow against some of the incorrect criticisms of it that are made here, even though it\u2019s not directly affected by this part of the bill. But it\u2019s been raised by others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issue of water storage: yes, there is a need for more water storage in New Zealand, on the dry East Coast, particularly. In the prior part of the legislation in respect of consents, there was reference through to the limitation on the length of new consents that can be given for the abstraction of water, and that\u2019s because now that most water has been allocated, or over-allocated, in many catchments on the \u201Cfirst in, first served\u201D basis, if you enable new consents to be given for 35 years or the renewal of all existing consents for 35 years, you\u2019ve, effectively, put off the more efficient and reasonable allocation of water resources in New Zealand for up to 35 years, which would frustrate the purpose of the Act, which is for more fair as well as economically efficient and environmentally proper outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere were some exceptions made for large hydro projects. We\u2019ve now made it clear that all existing hydro has the benefit of those exceptions to that limitation on the term of those consents. So you can get a 35-year renewal, but we haven\u2019t applied that to all new water storage projects, although we have created a pathway for those sorts of projects to be given a longer-term consent in order for them to be banked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0bec1429a5144aba58dd8cd10e237fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0bec1429a5144aba58dd8cd10e237fc\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to come to the matter of water conservation orders. Now, water conservation orders are already allowed under the existing Resource Management Act and they have been applied to a number of rivers\u2014particularly the lower sections of rivers\u2014where if water is abstracted for primary production in the upper parts of the catchment, or from, say, drawing on groundwater from bores, then there may not be sufficient water at certain times of the year and in certain climatic conditions to allow sufficient water to be in the river so that habitats are sustained so that recreation activities can be sustained, whether it\u2019s jet boating, fly fishing, kayaking, or swimming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut one of the problems with water conservation orders, as we\u2019ve seen recently in Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2014and forgive me, I\u2019m going to struggle to pronounce the name of the river\u2014I think it\u2019s Ngaruroro River, which has had a water conservation order applied to it. But one of the things that was proposed by some of the organisations representing farmers and growers, representing food processors was that, look, they can\u2019t turn off their processors; they can\u2019t tell their growers to stop growing the crop; they can\u2019t tell the apples and the pears to stop growing. They need the water. When they make an investment in planting\u2014and, of course, apple orchards, in particular, were absolutely smashed by Cyclone Gabrielle and other storm events recently\u2014when they make a commitment to replant or to re-sow a crop, whether it be lettuces or tomatoes or corn, squash, whatever the vegetables are, they need to know they have access to water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EA water conservation order that only looks at the water in the river and says, \u201CThat\u2019s all you can take, less what\u2019s left for recreation and the environment.\u201D, in the case of the order around the Ngaruroro River, ignores the fact there are options to build water storage higher up in the catchment to collect some of those enormous volumes of water which have come down the river during floods and storms, particularly in the last six months\u2014enormous volumes of water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo Minister, one of the concerns that the ACT Party has is that there is insufficient pathway to build water storage. That\u2019s why ACT says, \u201CIf we want to adapt to climate change; if we want to leave water in the rivers for the fish, for trout and salmon, and for the banded k\u014Dkopu or the giant k\u014Dkopu\u201D\u2014or whatever those native fish are\u2014\u201Cthe eels, tuna; and we want to have water for production, then we should be allowing building water storage, water transfer between property owners, and irrigation as of right.\u201D In other words, as long as you can demonstrate that you meet a code of practice and that your activities do not take away from the environment, then you should be able to build water storage as of right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESometimes, water storage developments require cooperation between regional councils, between central government, as well as between private sector funders like the Ruataniwha dam proposal in Hawke\u2019s Bay. Yet, that was declined after Department of Conservation had to agree with some objectors from Forest \u0026amp; Bird that a piece of the land they wanted to swap\u2014so it could be used for water storage\u2014that they weren\u2019t allowed to swap it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo there was all kinds of things that stop us from actually developing water storage that underpins a better natural environment\u2014that supports regional economic development\u2014that is not addressed by this bill. So Minister, would you be able to provide the committee some assurance; people listening at home; and, of course, all of those growers and manufacturers and food producers who want to know that they can build water storage that can continue to operate in the regions, support our economy? They\u2019re the backbone of our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, how will Part 6 and managing resources in areas, particularly water, sustain regional economy, primary production, and New Zealand\u2019s prosperity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222b0546c05ef04719b47b0896b7ccb338\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b0546c05ef04719b47b0896b7ccb338\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the issues relating to Ruataniwha, they are outside the scope of not only this Part; but they are outside the scope of this bill. As the member has rightly indicated, those matters were determined under the Conservation Act, not under the Resource Management Act nor its successor. So I won\u2019t comment further upon that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of conservation orders, some conservation orders actually go from the headwaters to the sea\u2014the Mataura River\u2019s an example of one of those. Others are mainly in the headwaters, like the Wakatipu conservation order covers all of the rivers coming into Lake Wakatipu and the Kawarau River from the outflow from Lake Wakatipu down to the head of the Lake Dunstan at the Clyde Dam, but no further down. So that\u2019s an example of where in the headwaters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the Ngaruroro River and the Clive River\u2014I have the same pronunciation inadequacies as the member does, to which I apologise to the committee\u2014that was, in the end, not approved by the body to whom the application was sought in respect of the areas that did go through the lands that the member was concerned about, and was confined to the outer reaches of the river. So it\u2019s actually an example of the system working towards the objectives that the member says he supports, rather than against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of water storage issues, I dealt with that with the answering the question from Barbara Kuriger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0b9fd0103ee4083a031ec4b0bb5d1d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0b9fd0103ee4083a031ec4b0bb5d1d3\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to talk about the areas of highly vulnerable biodiversity, and I just have a question because it talks about\u2014there\u2019s a criteria on page 299, clause 427P. Where does that\u2014can I ask the Minister where does that leave the review into stewardship land, given that there\u2019s a huge range of biodiversity classes on conservation land? There\u2019s obviously a review going into it, will this particular piece of legislation define it more clearly? And if you could just explain to me what happens next from here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0df7632723844d9a3d88adbc9b223c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0df7632723844d9a3d88adbc9b223c5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I addressed this to some extent under the first discussion we had on the first part of the bill, but the member\u2019s quite right that this is further articulated in this part of the legislation. The scheme of the Act is to try and properly protect what is truly important, but not have that\u2014and then really protect it with very, very limited exceptions as to some, for example, essential infrastructure that\u2019s got no other place to go. But other than that, very, you know, very rare exception to the protection of highly valuable biodiversity areas. They are protected against development pressures, but in order for them to be of that status, they really do have to be nationally outstanding. It can\u2019t be low. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, I know there are members in this House, and there is an amendment in the name of the Hon Eugenie Sage that wants to extend that to regionally significant areas of biodiversity. Within the view of the Government, yes, regionally significant, highly biodiverse areas can be protected by councils if they want to through their plans, and they go through a planning process and that\u2019s a decision they take locally. But in respect of the highly protected areas where the scheme of the Act protects it, as opposed to rules in a plan, we think that should be limited to the nationally important, and that\u2019s what this does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002252c81ba35f5e458785505c8993b3b53e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252c81ba35f5e458785505c8993b3b53e\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank very much, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to go back to freshwater farm plans. And my question is around the requirement for farm operators to prepare a freshwater farm plan, then submit the plan to a certifier for certification, and then arrange for the freshwater farm plan to be audited. So it\u2019s quite a few steps involved there, and I think the Minister would accept that most farmers won\u2019t have the ability to do this themselves and they\u2019ll have to hire consultants to do the work. Certainly to prepare the freshwater farm plan, which some say could cost up to $10,000, and then obviously the next steps in terms of certifying and auditing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EMy question then goes to: what happens if there is a major adverse weather event which affects the relevant freshwater farm plan, and looking at clause 403(2), it says that \u201CA farm operator must keep the certified freshwater farm plan fit for purpose by amending the plan as necessary to reflect any changes in the farm; and amending the plan as necessary to comply with this subpart and regulations.\u201D So let\u2019s take, for example, the events that have happened this year on the East Coast\u2014Tair\u0101whiti, Gisborne, Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2014which would have a pretty significant impact on the operations of a farm and therefore would need quite significant changes to the operation of that farm. How is a farmer realistically going to update their farm plan, then get it certified, then get it audited and comply with the requirements here? And I know it\u2019s not just unique to these guys\u2014Tair\u0101whiti, Gisborne, Hawke\u2019s Bay area; back in the beginning of 2020, a major adverse weather event happened in Southland, in which, again, the same scenario would have been faced by farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222abb9090364f4c0684656e2eb3a0cf64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222abb9090364f4c0684656e2eb3a0cf64\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The first point I would make is that if you\u2019re going to have farm plans as a substitute for regulation, they do need to have a degree of rigour about them. And there\u2019s general agreement, I think, across the system that if it\u2019s going to be a substitute for regulation, it actually has to be something that in practice people can be held to account for whether they do what they promised to do in order to limit their adverse effects on the environment. This is modelled on the Canterbury system and it\u2019s working there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect to the member\u2019s question about what happens if events change, well, we\u2019ve actually had the real example, as the member astutely points out, in respect of the Hawke\u2019s Bay region. And the Government response to that has been to write, at the recuse of the regional council, and say \u201CTaihoa, you\u2019ve got a few more years to take care of it because you\u2019re actually addressing other issues in response to the emergency.\u201D So these things are practical and there are mechanisms to make sure that those sorts of events can be catered for, as evidenced by the fact that just in recent months that very occurrence has been dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a29bbfb0b5ac4cb586d8eecf164712a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a29bbfb0b5ac4cb586d8eecf164712a6\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to continue on this theme of freshwater farm plans. I\u2019m pleased to hear from the Minister that there\u2019s going to be a degree of pragmatism applied for unprecedented weather events and things of that nature. That\u2019s good to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI particularly want to refer to clause 405, the requirement for the certification of a freshwater farm plan, and that the farm plan needs to be certified under clause 408 by a regional council. Councils must keep records of individual farms and their plans, and then, in clause 409, they must appoint certifiers and auditors. Now, that\u2019s fine as well, but in clause 409A, there appears to be what is, effectively, an opportunity for regional councils to contract out that audit service. Clause 409A(1) says, \u201CA regional council may give approval to an industry organisation that applies to the council to provide certification and audit services under this subpart if the council is satisfied that the organisation meets the standards issued under subsection (2).\u201D I guess my concern is that some critics might see this as actually the fox in the hen house. The potential for sector groups to, effectively, do the auditing, in some eyes would potentially be seen as a conflict of interest and that they may have a range of motivations that might go to undermine the potential for the quality and scrutiny that they are taking up in their role as certifiers and auditors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, maybe you could give us some assurance about the kind of organisation that might be eligible. The clause says that it should be an approved industry organisation. I\u2019m interested to know how \u201Cindustry organisation\u201D is defined, and could an industry organisation be a non-farming industry organisation? Could it potentially be, for instance, an environmental NGO or another entity or organisation that has interests in environmental matters and particular interests in the quality of freshwater and the impacts of farming and agriculture on freshwater that, potentially, could also be seen as a potential conflict situation? So, if the Minister could tease that out for me, I would appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf8fe84c4186497a988131c8b11ba414\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf8fe84c4186497a988131c8b11ba414\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to, Madam Chair. As clause 409A sets out, the council may approve an industry organisation to carry out that role; \u201C(2) The Minister [can], by notice in the Gazette, issue standards by which industry organisations must be assessed\u201D; \u201C(3) [The] Standards (can) \u2026 (a) set out the kind of organisation eligible\u201D; and they can \u201C(b) include content and processes\u201D. There\u2019s an example given at clause 409A(3)(b): \u201Cby requiring the industry to run training programmes and ensuring that conflicts are appropriately managed.\u201D I agree with the member\u2019s point that conflicts do need to be appropriately managed. I\u2019ve never heard the term \u201Cindustry organisation\u201D to be applied to environmental NGOs. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the intention. But there have been some industry organisations, like the horticulture sector, that have run their own industry assurance programmes. The viticulture sector has some as well. So we don\u2019t want to\u2014oh, actually, I should go back a step. Farmers don\u2019t want to have a parade of lots of people doing similar things. They want it to be done once and be done well so that they can rely on it. Councils want the same thing because they want to be able to rely on it, and that\u2019s why the system has been designed the way in which it has been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00225af4a9b0d6ba441b946a84508ea9b503\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225af4a9b0d6ba441b946a84508ea9b503\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Dealing with \u201CPlaces of national importance\u201D and clause 427A \u201CInterpretation\u201D, as the Minister for the Environment noted, there\u2019s a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) in my name, 394. What that seeks to do is put the Natural and Built Environment Bill (NBE) on a similar\u2014to put outstanding landscapes and natural features on a similar footing in this bill to the Resource Management Act (RMA), where there has been a lot of work done by district councils and regional councils to identify and assess areas of outstanding natural landscape and natural features, and to have those included in plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo when the Minister noted that it\u2019s optional that outstanding natural features and landscapes at that regional and local scale be identified, is it his expectation that the work that has been done to date by councils throughout the country will be used and put into natural built environment plans even though the much narrower definition in clause 427A means that these regionally and locally outstanding natural features and landscapes aren\u2019t recognised as being of national importance, which under the RMA they are because there is no qualification that they just have to be outstanding at a national level. It is a fact that outstanding natural features and landscapes are a matter of national importance under the RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Green Party\u2019s concern is that the change in the NBE bill really undermines the recognition of landscape values. It is often these are issues that are quite important in getting people to think about how we do land management in a way which respects natural systems, the soils, the features, and ensures that the landscape values of places like the Queenstown Lakes are protected from inappropriate development, such as houses and subdivisions that are very obvious and undermine that naturalness characteristic. So what happens to all of the existing information, can that be incorporated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThen, I also have another question about clause 427Q, which is about the protection of high value biodiversity areas. The Minister\u2019s SOP 389 makes, on page 299, some changes to clause 427Q around fishing, and it seems to me there are double negatives in there. But the protection for high value biodiversity areas is not as qualified in relation to fishing. Is there the risk that the provisions in the SOP will actually undermine the intent of the Motiti case? The Motiti case enabled councils, through their regional coastal plans, to protect areas against the effects of fishing, and that built on previous case law in Golden Bay. But, in the Minister\u2019s SOP and the changes to 427Q, that appears to really, really narrow the ability of plans to protect against the effects of fishing by only being able to do that if these high value biodiversity areas are very clearly identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220155d7db90a8493a876bb2b18832d140\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220155d7db90a8493a876bb2b18832d140\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Eugenie Sage for her contribution. In respect of the highly vulnerable biodiversity areas and places of national importance, we are wanting to make that a rarefied group of high standard places of national importance, not regional importance. Once that is accorded to those sorts of places, then the protections are very, very high and they\u2019re not easy to knock over. There are some very limited exceptions, but they are very limited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of other matters, we are actually leaving that to the local region, and the same high level of protection doesn\u2019t automatically apply. That doesn\u2019t mean to say there is no level of protection. And the member\u2019s right that the landscapes around Queenstown are important, and that subdivisions that are in the wrong place can undermine landscape values in a way that the people of the area ought to be worried about. That is preserved\u2014you know, that can still be done, but you won\u2019t be able to, I don\u2019t think, in space like Queenstown, say that all of the landscapes are of that critical importance. And why that\u2019s important, in the example that\u2019s been given to me by officials, including by Transpower New Zealand officials, is that they find it very hard to get any new transmission line approved into Queenstown because everything is categorised as being of importance from a landscape point of view, when, in actual fact, they need a new transmission line into Queenstown because the population is growing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the other issue that the member raised around the marine space and fishing, what the amendment is intended to do is\u2014we don\u2019t override the Motiti case. The Motiti case is actually preserved, and there is a planning function there, which is actually starting to work out quite well in New Zealand now. There\u2019s been some recent experience around the Bay of Islands. And I\u2019m glad that we didn\u2019t overreact against the Motiti case, because it\u2019s working its way through the system quite wisely. But what we didn\u2019t want was for there to be an onus on the fishing industry to prove whether or not there are areas of high biodiversity value before they can fish, because the scheme of the bill as drafted created the risk that it would be for the fishing industry to prove that there weren\u2019t areas of high biological value before they could fish, whereas we think that, actually, it should be the other way around. Before you can stop people fishing where they\u2019re ordinarily fishing, there should be an onus on someone else to prove that that\u2019s an area where there ought not to be fishing, otherwise the regulation of the fishing industry would have become impractical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022d377a5b7eb7641ddb2cf7df9c6a8ce0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d377a5b7eb7641ddb2cf7df9c6a8ce0c\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I was very, very enthused by the Green member\u2019s comments around 427C, \u201CPlaces of national importance\u201D: \u201Cmust identify every place that is a natural landscape or a natural feature (including geoheritage) that is [outstanding] on a national scale\u201D, because, in some instances, the ability of iwi and hap\u016B to assert whether or not a natural feature of a w\u0101hi t\u016Bpuna or a w\u0101hi tapu is at the level of \u201Coutstanding\u201D, rather than just \u201Ca place over there\u201D have been severely compromised. The access issue, for example, on a place like Rangipo Waiu, where the New Zealand Defence Force currently owns some land, has compromised various iwi throughout that middle reach of the North Island to access, look at, and assert that a place is outstanding. So the kawa and tikanga exercise, which is referred to in earlier clauses 3 through to 6, has been so disturbed that the ability of those iwi to assert that that natural feature or that natural landscape is outstanding is severely modified. So I\u2019m trying to understand how a situation like that can be accommodated in the current proposed legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6d2a50210cc411b918230f0921c6748\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6d2a50210cc411b918230f0921c6748\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t know the detail of that particular case that\u2019s referred to in respect of what sounds like it\u2019s land owned by Defence Force in the Central North Island. But the Crown, in general, in respect of land that it needs to control access to, has similar rights to private landowners to exclude people from it. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s changed through this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of whether there are regionally, rather than nationally, significant issues touched upon by the member, but also just following up on one of the questions asked by the Hon Eugenie Sage, I\u2019m advised that the work is already done by councils in respect of their identification of regionally significant landscapes is something that can flow through to the considerations of the regional planning committee when they put together a regional plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7576b61072f46d289166a1b50a9348e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7576b61072f46d289166a1b50a9348e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to come back to the freshwater conservation orders and the implications of that, and also address the issue of nutrients on water quality and ecosystems. New Zealanders mostly agree that there are some places around New Zealand where freshwater resources have been over allocated or where discharges from certain types of land use are negatively affecting the environment in a way which we all agree is not an appropriate way to treat our common resources. But Minister, what we\u2019ve seen through this legislation, through the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management\u2014is a top-down approach; a centralised approach, making rules: whether it\u2019s a nitrogen limit or banning development in wetlands which actually don\u2019t reflect the needs of communities, especially where communities might have a differing view on how resources should be allocated, particularly freshwater. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat we have seen are special rights allocated to iwi M\u0101ori, based on spiritual values, which they are perfectly entitled to hold\u2014M\u0101ori culture is a taonga\u2014but that which now require decision makers around water to have regard to Te Mana o Te Wai, which puts the health of the water, the spiritual concept mauri, first, above the needs of drinking water allocation and above the needs of water for economic and social development, which of course is water used to grow things and make things, Minister. Many people in the primary sector have been suspicious of this Minister, this Government, and the Ministry for Environment, which he is responsible for, in the way they have gone about lawmaking. In most recent times, there has been a suggestion\u2014and we understand was tabled at Cabinet\u2014that there could be a fertiliser tax on nitrogen potentially to help save us from climate change\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a78a67d45ff407290664db0dd4b0de7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will come back to this particular bill; refer to the clauses that you\u2019re asking questions on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a278bc2db16348728dfc71945ef4c0f2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Subpart 3, clause 412, \u201CPurpose\u201D: \u201CThe purpose \u2026 is \u2026 better monitoring of actions taken to improve freshwater quality and freshwater ecosystems.\u201D Of course, better monitoring aligns with recommendations from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment to collect better data, to monitor and to make that available\u2014absolutely important, ACT would agree with that. However, in clause 413, \u201CMeaning of nitrogenous fertiliser\u201D, it spells out what nitrogen-based fertiliser is, and then goes on to say that under the regulations of clauses 414 and 415, the Government is entitled to collect information about fertiliser used on land, \u201Cthe date and place of purchase\u201D, \u201Cthe names of the seller \u2026 and the purchaser\u201D. I mean, this will be a surprise to farmers, this will be a surprise to organisations that rely on producing things on the land\u2014the Government now wants them to supply records of their inputs; of their production inputs; of their economic inputs. Because, of course, farmers are competing; they\u2019re not all sharing the best knowledge. They want to do better than some of their neighbours\u2014you know, that\u2019s the nature of our economy. They might not want to give this information to the Government about the amount, the type, and volume of fertiliser purchased. What the Government and what the public should be interested in is what are the impacts on receiving waters on our common resources of land use\u2014whether that\u2019s using fertiliser or whatever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo farmers and others will be suspicious that this Government has not given up its intention to impose a fertiliser tax, because it\u2019s quite clear in this legislation that they want to collect all of the information about fertiliser inputs and other inputs to land. Well, what would ACT do? We would say rather than trying to micro-manage this stuff from head office, Minister; rather than try to make rules around who should be allowed to apply how much fertiliser to their land, ACT would say we need to adopt a market-based system. Because where a local council identifies a limit on water quality\u2014the state of the environment that a community agrees is acceptable\u2014then above that limit, nutrients should be able to be traded, because some farmers; some producers will have better ways of mitigating nutrient loss from farms, using better fertiliser, technology and monitoring and application systems\u2014whereas others would prefer to do things in a different way. But if nutrients and water quality are allocated in a market-based system where people could compete for water quality attributes, Minister, wouldn\u2019t that be fairer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa5b2b50eb6b4225919a0cc1944c47d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa5b2b50eb6b4225919a0cc1944c47d7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I do find the ironies in these contributions worthy of comment occasionally, because the only two times New Zealand has ever adopted a cap-and-trade scheme for nutrients inputs were around the Taup\u014D catchment\u2014who did that? The last Labour Government\u2014and the Rotorua catchment. Who did that? The last Labour Government. This very bill encourages more of that, and the last part: I won\u2019t go into that because we\u2019ve already been past that, but it actually enables those market-based mechanisms for exactly the reasons that the member indicated. So I look forward to his stirring speeches in support of those provisions in subsequent contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022079963f7396e4cbdad30edd404d3c4fd\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: What about the fertiliser tax, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe104a7eca0942c8a1fd9ded0123175a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of the fertiliser issues, they\u2019re a carry-over of the existing Resource Management Act, which enables that information to be gathered if regulations are made to that effect. What are the standards for water quality\u2014again, I agree with the member that we\u2019ve actually moved past the point of debate in New Zealand that we were going to have wadeable rivers. We actually want contact recreation to be safe for people that use our rivers, where they\u2019re in a kayak or having a swim; effectively, swimmability is the standard for New Zealand rivers and streams in both rural and urban areas, and in some of those urban areas particularly\u2014but also in some rural areas, we\u2019ve got some ways to go to get back to there. But we\u2019re actually agreed, as a country, that that\u2019s what we should be heading for, and that\u2019s what the current regulation and the subsidiary instruments provides for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u002202546b93279148e1b963ea83e52f182f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202546b93279148e1b963ea83e52f182f\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just following on around the effect of certain nutrients on quality and ecosystems of freshwater, and noting that in the current environment it\u2019s very hard to actually grow stuff in New Zealand because there are limits on that. You know, we do have a cost of living crisis and we do have a, what, 20-odd percent increase in the cost of vegetables over the past 12 months. This isn\u2019t going to make it any easier. In fact, it\u2019s going to make it more difficult to grow stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EI just wanted to raise with the Minister the reality that in some places of New Zealand we take\u2014there\u2019s a line that goes through around the Bombay Hills where you switch over into the Waikato Regional Council, and the regulations they have around the nutrient usage is quite severe. What you\u2019re actually doing there is prohibiting growing in some of the most fertile areas in New Zealand where we have a cost of living crisis, where fruit and vegetables are more expensive than they\u2019ve been, and where New Zealanders\u2014what they actually need are lower prices, and they need more fresh vegetables on their plate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ESo the reality of what this is going to do is make that more challenging. We have situations\u2014you drive north of here a couple of hundred kilometres, and people are actually growing there without consent because this Government is overburdening them with fresh water rules which make it impossible to grow. What we would like to see is a situation where we can move from doing what you\u2019re doing on your land\u2014so there\u2019s a pyramid aspect at the moment, and you can\u2019t move up that scheme. So you can\u2019t actually get up to growing vegetables and into the horticulture space because there are far too many regulations in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EIs the Minister aware of that? Is the Minister aware that these regulations are going to make it harder to grow? Is the Minister aware that these regulations are going to make it more expensive for New Zealanders to eat fresh fruit and vegetables? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00224ff027256ef1470ab0b9177332f80caf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ff027256ef1470ab0b9177332f80caf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I do find it frustrating when members don\u2019t pay attention to earlier contributions in the debate, including in response to questions from their own members who know better than the member who just showed his ignorance. There are specific provisions in this bill that elevate vegetable growth. That also reflects what we as a Government have done to actually improve allowances for the likes of nutrient pollution coming from the growth of vegetables compared with other sectors\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4d6233373c64b78a53b3e127aaf049e\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing in this bill but carrots.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e2473bda36e43a3b116595aa162b3f6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea2ac52a9cb44220858f7fdc9dcfa86a\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the bill do for carrots?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0bbe65cfb9a462bb5c612614b061e07\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: What does the bill do for carrots\u2014that\u2019s the level of debate that we have from Simeon Brown. It\u2019s quite good to put that on the record. What it does is the provisions in this bill say that the interests of vegetable growing are very important to the health of New Zealanders and ought to be elevated. They are in this, as we have done in respect of fresh water management matters, where we have given exemptions to both Pukekohe and Horowhenua areas where the environmental limits could not be reasonably met without kerbing vegetable production. We thought that was wrong for the health of New Zealanders and the price of vegetables, and so we gave them exemptions. That is carried forward in this legislation, and if the member doesn\u2019t know that, it\u2019s not my fault.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022959470511c1f47b7b46e5eaf7c3da8c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022959470511c1f47b7b46e5eaf7c3da8c9\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. This is proving to be quite a good and lively discussion that we\u2019re having here under extended sitting. I want to come back to Subpart 4, \u201CPlaces of national importance\u201D\u2014or what we came, in the Environment Committee, to affectionately refer to as \u201CPONIs\u201D. We spent quite a lot of time talking about the PONIs\u2014places of national importance\u2014and a section of the debate was around the use of the term \u201Ctrivial\u201D or \u201Cmore than a trivial impact\u201D or \u201Cmore than a trivial, adverse effect\u201D. I notice in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper that the word \u201Ctrivial\u201D, in multiple places\u2014and I\u2019m particularly referring to clause 427C(4)(b). There\u2019s another reference in 427F. There\u2019s another reference in 427H, where the term \u201Ctrivial\u201D has been replaced by the word \u201Cminimal\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested to know what the rationale for that change is and whether the Minister has received advice from officials that removing the word \u201Ctrivial\u201D and replacing it with \u201Cminimal\u201D has some impact that maybe wasn\u2019t originally made clear at the select committee, and whether or not the impact of that change will improve\u2014I guess the fact that the Minister has made the change is an indication that he feels it must improve and be a better terminology than the use of the word \u201Ctrivial\u201D. So, if the Minister could enlighten us as to why that change was made, because it was a matter that was discussed at some considerable length in select committee. There were a number of submitters that made mention of the point, and our concern at select committee was that it was very hard to define \u201Ctrivial\u201D\u2014that \u201Ctrivial\u201D has different meanings to different people. But, to replace it with the word \u201Cminimal\u201D, I\u2019m not 100 percent sure that that necessarily helps advance certainty in any degree. So if the Minister can give us some insight on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00229ba0cb2a374840e987a8908fae5ecd41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ba0cb2a374840e987a8908fae5ecd41\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Actually, the member Scott Simpson has had his way on this one, if he did express that at select committee, because how it used to work was that \u201Ctrivial\u201D, which was the term that was used, was defined in the definitions signal, on page\u00A064 of the bill, to mean \u201Cadverse effects that are no more than minimal\u201D. So they\u2019ve cut the definition out and they just moved straight from \u201Ctrivial\u201D to \u201Cminimal\u201D, and it is actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219aa207b72104bcd8fdc23dfb2a1733f\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve cut out the middleman!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276b0e5c0cd2743ef8da775f2893fae4a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve cut out the middle definition, yeah. And, in terms of consistency with language in other statutes, it\u2019s probably more consistent and, therefore, leads to less uncertainty in a new statute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022dea00664a5544f738a2b275bfbd85769\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dea00664a5544f738a2b275bfbd85769\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Just in light of those comments about highly vulnerable biodiversity areas (HVBAs), there was a little bit of uncertainty around the interface between clause 427P(2) and the related determination of an HVBA, which \u201Cmust have regard to m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D. In the context of clauses 3 through 6 in the affiliations with kawa, tikanga, mana, and the vibe, and then the ability to make a determination that this is an HVBA, a piece of land, a piece of land that happened to be M\u0101ori land, the interface with clause 427S, which now says, if you refer to 427R, the Minister can make a provision that, even though you\u2019ve gone through that process of kawa, tikanga, m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, and everything else, and it is the characteristics of an HVBA\u2014it is that\u2014but the Minister can still make, effectively, a determination that that land is exempted from the HVBA provisions. So I\u2019m just trying to understand from the Minister if that is what is intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d059f0ce359544ec9957282a9937f9ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d059f0ce359544ec9957282a9937f9ea\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The ability to have exemptions to highly valuable biodiversity areas is race and colour neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c09b45889f164558bb9a9fd19135b9c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c09b45889f164558bb9a9fd19135b9c5\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00228932222a7b114a6999bdcc41ae4f3464\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228932222a7b114a6999bdcc41ae4f3464\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Minister, I want to just go to water conservation orders and ask you some questions around that. But I\u2019m just going put it in context and ask you about the minimum flow levels, as it relates to this, of the Manuherikia River, which I know the Minister will be well familiar with. The Manuherikia River, as the Minister probably knows, was once a \u201Cmassive lake that covered all of Central Otago. It was fringed with gum trees and ringed by salty mudflats. Fossil records show the lake was home to crocodiles and flightless, burrowing bats; the surrounding river delta [was] a feeding ground for ancient wading birds related to flamingos and Squawkzilla, the largest known parrot to ever exist.\u201D Fast forward a few tens of millions of years to today, and the Manuherikia River starts high in the snow-capped Hawkdun and St Bathans Ranges, flowing down to the Falls Dam, finished in 1935\u2014about 92 years ago by my calculation\u2014and then carries on about 85 kilometres down to Alexandra where it joins the Clutha, the country\u2019s largest river.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EUnlike most other rivers, the Manuherikia starts by collecting the snowmelt from the Hawkdun and St Bathans Ranges and then it carries on, and it doesn\u2019t really get much other water. Most rivers collect more water as they go, as they collect water coming into catchments. However, the area where the Manuherikia River flows through in Central Otago is very, very dry. In fact, they call it in some places \u201Cthe Middle East\u201D\u2014in fact, it\u2019s the driest place in the country. So it creates a bit of a unique conundrum where it actually needs to collect most of its water at the top, which is why the Falls Dam was constructed back in 1935. I\u2019ve spoken to some old-timers who said that pre the construction of that, there were times when the river ran dry completely, so that dam forms a very important function.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI note, when I look at clause 378 in terms of water conservation orders, that a water conservation order can provide for a whole lot of things: \u201Cthe preservation, as far as possible in its natural state, of a water body that is considered to be outstanding\u201D, \u201Cas a habitat for terrestrial or aquatic organisms\u201D, \u201Cas a fishery\u201D, \u201Cfor its wild, scenic, or other natural characteristics\u201D, \u201Cfor its scientific and ecological values\u201D, \u201Cfor recreational, historical, cultural, or spiritual purposes\u201D, and \u201Cthe protection of characteristics that a water body has, or contributes to, and that are considered to be of outstanding significance in accordance with tikanga M\u0101ori.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWhat I don\u2019t see any mention of there, Minister, is its economic value for the community. I note that the Central Otago District Council had an independent analysis made of this previously and noted that if there were to be a minimum flow level of about 3,000 litres per second\u2014I think it is\u2014that would be equivalent to reducing the income from farming across Central Otago by some 50 percent compared to the status quo. That would be a very significant matter for that region, and I\u2019m curious as to why this consideration has not been put in there as something that must be considered, or should be considered, as part of a water conservation order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002244ed5ea16bb242c58d2760c2ae973eb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244ed5ea16bb242c58d2760c2ae973eb9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I actually claim some expertise in water conservation orders. I\u2019ve done a lot of the water conservation orders that there are in New Zealand, including on all of the tributaries of the Wakatipu, including the Mataura River and including the Ahuriri and a number of other catchments around New Zealand. So I know a lot about them. There is no water conservation application in respect to the Manuherikia. I also know a lot about that river, and, indeed, when I\u2019m in a position in a place where M\u0101ori mention their whakapapa and the rivers that they most closely identify with, I actually choose two rivers: the Waikouaiti River and the Manuherikia River, which I camp next to most years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI also know the history of its mismanagement as a water body, that is a shame on the reputation of the Resource Management Act (RMA) that goes back for 30 years. And I can attest to that, because the year that the RMA came into effect\u2014around 1992\u2014I went to a meeting in a woolshed close by the river at Mr Rutherford\u2019s house with the late Jim Guthrie. We were explained how there was a 30-year transition for what used to be called \u201Cmining privileges\u201D, which became \u201Cdeemed permits\u201D under the RMA, which were meant to transition into RMA water consents and, therefore, enable an effective minimum flow on the Manuherikia River, whatever that flow ought to be. And I don\u2019t actually have a strong view as to what the minimum flow ought to be on that river. I\u2019m actually more interested in water quality outcomes. Sadly, after 30 years of transition started in 1992, the regional council dropped the ball down there and didn\u2019t transition in the deemed water permits, and therefore actual water abstraction during a period when environmental outcomes that should have been getting better got worse, because the actual amount of water being sucked out of the river actually increased each year and farmers became more dependent on unsustainable levels of utilisation sucked out of the main stem of that river. I know a lot about that, as you can hear, but this bill doesn\u2019t affect it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228dbbcbe8e8dc4e76912e983117ff7e8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dbbcbe8e8dc4e76912e983117ff7e8e\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a quick question about contaminated land, Minister. There\u2019s a clause in here, clause 427, that talks about going back to the recovering the costs from the polluter or, if not, the EPA may recover the costs from the local authority. This may or may not be a tie-in with the current Resource Management Act and it\u2019s just a gap in my knowledge. Is there a time limit on that? Because we all know of some very contaminated\u2014or very historically contaminated\u2014sites. Can you just please explain that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002239522162c21e4a3095c71440fa89f8c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239522162c21e4a3095c71440fa89f8c0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s not. The sad reality in respect of most of the badly contaminated sites in New Zealand is they\u2019re known as what is called \u201Corphan sites\u201D. That is that the owner of those sites, when they were running an old sawmill or chemical production factory, they\u2019ve long since gone into liquidation or scarpered, and there\u2019s no one left to pay the bill of the remediation. So it falls on central and local governments to foot the bill, and there\u2019s a limited amount of money for that. So it\u2019s not possible to put a deadline on the rehabilitation of all contaminated land because they\u2019re under budgets to achieve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u002236272996b9a4437e924f6151e78a3ff3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236272996b9a4437e924f6151e78a3ff3\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002224633baf482144609a5da97f59e28b8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224633baf482144609a5da97f59e28b8e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just further to the questions of contaminated land, and I\u2019d just like to acknowledge the efforts of the Minister in assisting with the negotiation of the removal of hazardous materials from Mataura back to T\u012Bwai-Bluff aluminium smelter, because that is an example of where it is necessary for a Government to show leadership where we have an orphan site or an organisation that thought they could do the right thing with harmful materials but has not been able to succeed. But, Minister, I just want to ask for your consideration. Isn\u2019t the issue of contaminated land primarily a matter for private property owners, unless the contamination is actually affecting a waterway which is a common asset or the ability of a neighbour to enjoy their land? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBecause, Minister, in my experience, working in the contaminated land sector, the hazards associated with past industrial and commercial activity, whether they\u2019ve been manufacturing steel components or concrete, building houses, or even painting houses that once had lead paint on them and where the preparation for repainting involves stripping and sanding and you end up with lead in the soil\u2014that contamination is typically not a risk to anybody unless the soil is disturbed and people are exposed to contaminants by breathing in dusts, for example, such as asbestos or lead. So, Minister, if land contamination is primarily a risk to the landowner, then shouldn\u2019t it be simply something for the landowner to manage? Because contamination, if it\u2019s significant, will reduce the value of that land. For example, I\u2019m aware of land developments where the price has been discounted when it comes to transacting the land because the land developer will need to spend a significant amount of money on cleaning up contamination before they can change the land use, say, from commercial or industrial to residential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a lot of information here, Minister, on subpart 4 about classification of contaminated land and, of course, the polluter pays principle which ACT absolutely agrees with, Minister. But the landowner\u2019s obligations are to identify to regional council when land is contaminated and to provide information about whether that contamination exceeds an environmental limit and so on. But it doesn\u2019t say what\u2019s to happen next, because, of course, one of the problems we have now is that simply collecting information about natural and physical hazards is never enough. Someone will always have to act on it. And, Minister, it\u2019s not clear what that action might be from a regional council. So if you could clarify that, also your interpretation or, I guess, give us a bit of context and background on the relative issues between the private property owner having the contamination versus the public risk, if the land is not being disturbed and the contaminants are not being released. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I also want you to just give us your interpretation of how significant contaminated land sites, in clause 422, might work under this legislation, because it\u2019s not just orphan sites that are significant contaminated land sites. New Zealand also has hundreds of closed landfills, sites where we willingly, knowingly, intentionally placed harmful substances, general refuse, municipal waste collected from households, agricultural waste and chemicals, all kinds of manufacturing wastes in communities around New Zealand in areas that are subject to erosion from coastal processes or river processes, on sites which may well be now surrounded or even have had residential developments built over them, Minister. There\u2019s significant contaminated land sites like closed landfills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, when it comes to paying for it and time frames, if you could give us some clarity about once these sites are identified, whether there is an opportunity to clean them up, who should pay. And, Minister, given you also have the responsibility for the waste levy under the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s overall programme of work, would you be able to indicate whether the waste levy collected from disposing waste at landfills now, which is heading up towards $60 a tonne or more, could be applied as a fund to provide funding and financing for cleaning up of the significant contaminated land sites. Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002246e3ae8d94104915901d7a792d5f84e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246e3ae8d94104915901d7a792d5f84e8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Chair. Look, the member understands these issues are complicated. I understand that he understands the complication. I agree with his general proposition that you\u2019re more worried about contaminated land if the contamination is going to flow from that land into a water body or into the air or into an adjacent piece of land. But some of these provisions also note that if the land use changes, you\u2019ve got to be pretty careful it\u2019s contaminated. It might be OK to run a lead acid battery manufacturing plant on a piece of land that\u2019s industrial, but if it\u2019s become contaminated and you were to convert that into a residential subdivision, then, of course, the lead poisoning that could occur to people living in the housing that is built on that subdivided land could be significant, and there\u2019s a public policy interest against that happening, and so that\u2019s why provisions like clause 421 provide duties on territorial authorities when considering consent applications to subdivide contaminated land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issue as to the waste levy, yes, we\u2019re actually giving consideration to that. I think where that will end is in that in respect of municipal sites where, really, central government probably had responsibility for the original site. I\u2019m certainly open to the idea that the Waste Minimisation Fund should be able to be accessed to help remediate those sites. I think that\u2019s a practical and sensible thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of private sites that are owned by private bodies who have polluted their land, I\u2019m not sure that the public purse should be going to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002265ceec61a7c040aaacdf3f5e0585aee2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265ceec61a7c040aaacdf3f5e0585aee2\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to ask here around significant biodiverse areas and the considerations relevant to the Minister under clauses 427D and 427E. I note that before specifying criteria that the Minister must seek\u2014in the national planning framework, the responsible Minister must seek written advice from the environmental limits and targets review panel, on (a), \u201Cwhether, in the opinion of the panel, the criteria proposed by the responsible Minister are scientifically robust; and (b) any other matter the responsible Minister considers relevant\u201D. But when I look under 427E, I note that in the criteria there is nothing there to address the issue that the Minister noted before, which I think was quite right. Which is, for example, in Queenstown, there are potentially real barriers to building new transmission lines, which the area may very well need in the not too distant future because of the electricity demands and growth that that requires. So there\u2019s potentially an issue here in that the Minister must set criteria but can\u2019t take\u2014my question is: can the Minister take into account other really important considerations, like, for example, the need for a transmission line to be built for an area like Queenstown which needs more electricity, and that may cross areas of significant biodiversity values?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022198e2069bd06474faf5d46cc0123f344\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022198e2069bd06474faf5d46cc0123f344\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The bill\u2014higher up in the scheme of the bill gives priority to the provision of renewable electricity. It also gives provision to a higher recognition to infrastructure provision more generally, not just renewable electricity. Both of those pathways would help, as would the regional spatial strategies required under the Spatial Planning Bill, that we are yet to consider. But in addition to all of that, even if there was a highly nationally important biodiversity area identified, actually the only exception really that you can get to that is for critical infrastructure that\u2019s got nowhere else to go. So even if the whole of Queenstown was to be\u2014surroundings of it were to be in that high category, and I don\u2019t think they ever would be, even if they were, even then, the bill allows an exception for that critical infrastructure that can\u2019t be put anywhere else. But in the event that would happen, the damage that the pylons would do to that area would have to be offset by some environmental measure elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002295bfa10560594390ab998f1d3a43a658\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295bfa10560594390ab998f1d3a43a658\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendments to clauses 427G and 427X on Supplementary Order Paper 389 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022442dc28f03c34b7cb2a9e175a2bb610b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7e0a21366dc4f49818872fcd3649efc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7e0a21366dc4f49818872fcd3649efc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just wanting to check that there has been the proper order of the Supplementary Order Paper put here. I\u2019ve got this Supplementary Order Paper in hand, which is an amendment to Supplementary Order Paper 389. It is on the Table. I\u2019m just checking with the Clerks as to whether that amendment to the Supplementary Order Paper 389 ought to have been put before Supplementary Order Paper 389 was put. Here\u2019s the document there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002269f41db886ac460789b48de1afba33b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269f41db886ac460789b48de1afba33b5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll just take the time to make sure we\u2019ve got that right, Minister in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002208db7941535d481ea968c77a9facdad1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208db7941535d481ea968c77a9facdad1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, can I assist the committee here. I\u2019m speaking to the point of order that I\u2019ve raised. I think the Supplementary Order Paper should have been put first, and I\u2019m not sure what the proper way through is. The simplest way for me is just to seek leave of the committee rather than have an argument about it. If necessary, this is a matter that I would need to push, but I suspect there is an easy way through here, which is to\u2014I\u2019m not sure whether that vote had been completely recorded. Perhaps we could have an indication\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc9ddf77ef4448778fd51ec49eb87f49\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Just speaking to that point of order, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259099917092141a1bfd81aa39e2abfea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just hold on one second.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a24dd6789844e6485ef091c088a8400\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Just while you\u2019re working through the proceedings, I think it would be helpful from the Minister for the committee just to hear why he thinks the order should go in the order he is suggesting and the issues that he\u2019s trying to overcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222aeccfeddae54106b5d57908cfe6f9ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aeccfeddae54106b5d57908cfe6f9ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: He has spoken before. But elaborate on your thoughts on the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227081f83b95094c299a54eeaea7e35d23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227081f83b95094c299a54eeaea7e35d23\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E If it assists, I believe that the process of the committee is meant to put amendments to amendments before the amendment is heard, if they\u2019re from the Minister. That does not appear to have occurred here. I\u2019m not blaming the Clerks, but that\u2019s what has happened here, and I would suggest the proper thing is to put that Supplementary Order Paper that then amends that wider Supplementary Order Paper in the manner that accords with the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00221f4bb7d76b01405896a5fe2c157da17f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f4bb7d76b01405896a5fe2c157da17f\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that point of order, surely if the proceedings aren\u2019t in order, that probably makes the last vote void\u2014you can\u2019t be amending an amendment that hasn\u2019t been amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225d05b808c7ca4ca787cdc1ea4c731ea3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d05b808c7ca4ca787cdc1ea4c731ea3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I hear both sides. If you can just allow me to take advice now. I think we have a way through. Just to clarify: I\u2019m advised that the tabled amendment was actually voted on through the wording of the amendment. So, actually, if the member is concerned that it hadn\u2019t been, I\u2019m reassured that isn\u2019t the case. Thank you for the committee taking the time to clarify that. We are now in the position we were in before. We\u2019ll now go on to the second amendment, which is that of Simon Court. Just before we go, everyone understands?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2d836bac9c247fdbbce8ca903c2ec36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2d836bac9c247fdbbce8ca903c2ec36\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E So, if my understanding is correct, you\u2019re now saying that we\u2019ve already voted on that Supplementary Order Paper of 10.20 a.m., on clause 164, and that tabled amendment was put before the Supplementary Order Paper 389 was put, and therefore they have both been voted upon and we come to the member Simon Court\u2019s amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb00473e3e854d1190ae2d16472ee622\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb00473e3e854d1190ae2d16472ee622\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That is the advice I\u2019ve received. The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendment to Part 6 of Supplementary Order Paper 389 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 392 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002258c65aa634024e8da1424faf4ca161e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb35ee39cdb94176ba62ddf12a0baa60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb35ee39cdb94176ba62ddf12a0baa60\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s amendments to clause 427A of Supplementary Order Paper 389 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 394 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226cb8d555c14544f6be5741878c8a3d77\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229858224d67a447c2b802de52ead459ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229858224d67a447c2b802de52ead459ab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 6 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 389, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222918b3b7565d4a33bbdc63eeab607a9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229d48c3590132483ea60dd3cea58dcc1d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 6 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226fc94554790043c0948f7e64ae9a5a53\u0022\u003EPart 7  Coastal matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b895501876964f9fac9b91bf2af3fc88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b895501876964f9fac9b91bf2af3fc88\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 7, debate on clauses 428 to 496, \u201CCoastal matters\u201D. The question is that Part 7 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a072707c7b234d00b395ab1fe9c1844f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a072707c7b234d00b395ab1fe9c1844f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We come now to an interesting part of the legislation relating to coastal matters. I know that members who represent electorates that have coastal boundaries, such as my own in the beautiful Coromandel, and my colleague Stuart Smith\u2019s in Kaik\u014Dura, have particular interest in matters relating to this part of the proposed bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWhat essentially this part does is to provide for rules, regulations, and statutory provisions for what is, effectively, the commercialisation of the marine space. It is a matter that is different to matters relating to \u201Con the land\u201D, because in the marine space, of course, nobody owns the marine space, but we accept, as a nation and as a Parliament, that it\u2019s fit and proper that there should be access to the resource that is provided in the marine space, but that access should not be unfettered; it should be controlled and organised. So clause 428 essentially sets out that an allocation framework, as defined in section 7, doesn\u2019t apply to any application activity or authorisation under this part. Then Subpart 1 goes on to talk about the occupation of common marine and coastal areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister in the chair\u2014and I note that we actually have the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries in the chair at the moment, so she\u2019ll be well placed to answer questions in this particular section\u2014is, how does this particular part differ from existing provisions in the current Resource Management Act, and what changes has the Minister proposed that would make the administration of coastal matters easier, less complicated, less costly, and more efficient in terms of providing for better outcomes for those individuals and entities that wish to use part of the coastal resources that we have available to us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is a small nation at the bottom of the South Pacific. It\u2019s often said that we are surrounded by the largest moat on the planet, and that\u2019s almost certainly true. But what it means is that we have, actually, a very extensive coastline, very long coastline, with differing needs and requirements in different parts of it. I\u2019m interested, particularly, about the commercialisation of, for instance, aquaculture, commercial fishing, recreational fishing, for instance, charter fishing\u2014all those sorts of things. I know that my colleague Stuart Smith will want to ask questions relating to the energy sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister could start off this debate on Part 7 by giving us an insight into what changes, if any, are made between this proposed Part 7 of the statute, as opposed to the existing Resource Management Act; and if those changes have been made, how do they benefit the environment that is our coastal environment; and what steps are in place to ensure a more easy, simple, and less complicated, less costly process for those entities and people that want to use the marine space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f99051eeefb2444988fdf8199da624aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f99051eeefb2444988fdf8199da624aa\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E At a high level, in terms of the allocation and clause 428 that the member referred to, of course the more substantive changes to the allocation frameworks are found in the other parts of the bill, not this part of the bill. So, largely, what\u2019s happening in our coastal marine area isn\u2019t changing and the relationship with the fishing Act as well is also not changing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0376af3c12140b58591843eaf4376b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0376af3c12140b58591843eaf4376b4\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. As my colleague, the Hon Scott Simpson said, I do have quite an interest in this section of the bill. The Kaik\u014Dura electorate, as well as being comparable in size to Israel, has over 20 percent of New Zealand\u2019s coastline. I know that will be a surprise to many, but the Marlborough Sounds alone makes up 20 percent of New Zealand\u2019s coastline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff8494a83544999b9bbe4da8087cd80\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e59439004704b83a14b586f8a618fbe\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! 20 percent. Then, of course, we have the Kaik\u014Dura coast all the way down to the Ashley River, which is all part of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df6a80a9297644bf8a3c2cc078181a04\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: How long is that in kilometres?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022117c6002a6bc44f4b2e86f42adc870d8\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s over 20 percent of those coastal kilometres; I don\u2019t have that number to hand. So this section in the bill is of great interest. As my colleague sort of outlined before, the interests between how this may change things, particularly aquaculture in the Marlborough Sounds, where there\u2019s been quite a number of issues in the Sounds with salmon farming in particular, but now there\u2019s King Salmon\u2019s application for Blue Endeavour, which is out in Cook Strait, essentially, which I assume still comes under the same rules as it did under the previous Resource Management Act (RMA)\u2014and the Minister\u2019s nodding her head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut does that constrain, in any way, future applications\u2014that\u2019s already under way and won\u2019t be affected by this legislation, I would assume. But it seems one of the big concerns that King Salmon had, despite being kilometres offshore, is that the significant natural area part of the RMA could be triggered by someone who was halfway out to the offshore Blue Endeavour farm, they could look towards the coast and see a significant natural area\u2014it wouldn\u2019t be possible to see it from the farm itself, but it could be seen part of the way out there\u2014and they could turn around and look the other way and see the salmon farm and be offended by that, and that was grounds for appeal or against the consent. So I\u2019d like to know if that is still possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to know, while I\u2019m on my feet, Mr Chair\u2014and I\u2019ve got five minutes left; that\u2019s good\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221e7cd48225d0489681c98b221c77e055\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e7cd48225d0489681c98b221c77e055\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Stuart Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268851a7b1abf48e48deb3eac265930bc\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. About offshore wind: now, offshore wind applications to date\u2014oh, there\u2019s no applications, in fact, but the interest has been outside the 12-mile limit. Why we still call it that, I\u2019m not sure; we should go to the metric system, but I\u2019m not quite sure, off the top of my head, what 12 miles is in kilometres, but I\u2019ll leave that to the Minister. Anyway\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022391a34e48eb04002bc986cab682ccbf4\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: 18.6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dbb5cc6a8194b259c2a3c19c4b5a101\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: 18.6\u2014there you go. While they\u2019re outside the area of the RMA or the Natural and Built Environment Bill, the cables that have to take the electricity back to shore will, of course, cross through that 12-mile zone and then go up the coast to the beach, essentially, to reach a grid injection point\u2014or, indeed, a large load. So is that being considered in this legislation? Because the RMA didn\u2019t consider offshore wind and how that may impact on our planning rules and what impact that might have on the natural environment. So I look forward to that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022709b80272b3a4d05a957be8a34295fc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022709b80272b3a4d05a957be8a34295fc7\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E As Stuart Smith just said, the offshore wind farms are in the exclusive economic zone (EEZ), not the 12-mile coastal marine area, and I agree with him asking about why we still use those measurements. But the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is doing a piece of work to consider how we do consenting for those offshore wind farms in the EEZ. I note that there are some efficiencies in here for aquaculture in terms of how aquaculture areas can be more efficiently made at the plan stage, rather than at the consenting stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba3311f0065d435ba8baf88c29c6937c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba3311f0065d435ba8baf88c29c6937c\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, this matter of how coastal land or land in the common area is allocated under Part 7, \u201CCoastal matters\u201D, is actually vital to give certainty to a whole lot of infrastructure operators, asset owners, and people and businesses who might want to develop activities in the coastal area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I\u2019m not entirely sure if you\u2019re correct\u2014and perhaps you will clarify it\u2014but is it possible to build a wind turbine on the seabed within the 12-mile limit? Or are there any technical reasons\u2014or, perhaps, I don\u2019t know, ecological or even spiritual reasons\u2014why it can only be built in the exclusive economic zone? Because I would have thought that building a wind farm closer to land is actually a much better economic proposition; and, with reduced transmission distance to the consumer, probably a much better technical proposition as well. So, Minister, if you can confirm that it is possible, or should be possible, to build a wind farm within the 12-mile limit, that would be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen, thinking about how applications for different competing uses are dealt with. Well, I live in Auckland. The Auckland region has 3,000 kilometres of coastline, including west coast beaches regularly smashed by 4- to 6-metre swells; where the volcanic mountain range that used to stretch 50 kilometres out to sea, all we have of it as a result of coastal processes are the remnants of the Waitakere Ranges, which were simply the eastern foothills of an enormous volcanic mountain range equivalent in size, the Hon Scott Simpson, to the Coromandel Ranges. So coastal processes and how you occupy it\u2014very important to the people of Auckland when you\u2019re considering the west coast. Then on the east coast, of course, is where most Aucklanders carry out their business of recreation and their use of the coastal area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, in Auckland, we have significant competition for land uses in the coastal area. Auckland Council owns most of the boat ramps in the haul-out areas. However, there are groups in the community who say, \u201CWell, look, wouldn\u2019t it be better if we used what looks like a haul-out area with messy boats with Kiwis in their stubbies and singlets on a Saturday morning sanding and painting the boat\u2014wouldn\u2019t it be better if we use that land for some other kind of purpose?\u201D So there is already competition for these areas, which is why it\u2019s helpful that the bill provides some clarification about a method of competition. But, of course, if local councils or local government own these areas, and they have the decision-making powers, then how are other groups supposed to get access? That\u2019s not clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhen we think about the benefits of having haul-out facilities\u2014well, we have issues with biosecurity, Minister. You\u2019ll be well aware that Caulerpa seaweed, all kinds of marine pests and barnacles which must be removed from boats. There are regional council rules in Auckland and Northland which require recreational commercial boats to be hauled out, to be cleaned off, and to be repainted with anti-fouling paints at regular intervals. We don\u2019t have the haul-out facilities\u2014how on earth are we going to maintain our recreational and commercial boating fleet? So, Minister, how would the requirements be given weight if a decision maker is looking at bids for competing activities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen, of course, Minister, we have port developments. I mean, what did we learn during the COVID-19 pandemic lockdown of New Zealand? That the operation of our ports, whether it\u2019s having adequately trained personnel, proper equipment, and being able to come and go without having to show your papers at a regional border if you\u2019re a truckie\u2014all very important, but it all starts at the port. Because around about 3 million to 4 million containers are imported in and out of New Zealand every year. If our ports are not able to expand, to develop, to occupy the seabed, to occupy the coastal area\u2014and to do it without having to go back and prove why they should be allowed to do it every time\u2014then New Zealand\u2019s not going to be able to grow; we\u2019re not going to be able to deliver manufacturing and other high-paid jobs around the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, if you could explain how this beneficial competition for allocation of coastal land might work so we can all get ahead. Thanks, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002213f18e3b11d34e4395b341348044e9ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213f18e3b11d34e4395b341348044e9ad\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Going first to the comments around the exclusive economic zone (EEZ), my comment here was in response to the member\u2019s question. Of course, I can assure the member, Simon Court, that I\u2019m no expert on offshore wind farms; but should it be possible to have them in the coastal marine area (CMA), then clause 19 requires that nothing can happen without a resource consent in the CMA. I take the earlier point from Stuart Smith\u2014his point was that you might need consents in the CMA that then go out to the EEZ, so of course we want any work that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is doing to be joined up with what is happening in this Natural and Built Environment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of allocation, as I said before, these are not departures from the Resource Management Act, and good that we are having the Spatial Planning Bill and that regime, in terms of doing it long-term; thinking about how we want to use our spaces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00226656babfa2504ea19c0ccf1fca944299\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226656babfa2504ea19c0ccf1fca944299\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. I will take the opportunity to inform the committee that Marlborough alone has 1,800 kilometres of shoreline, so, therefore, it is very important that we get the coastal marine aspects of this Natural and Built Environment Bill nailed down and correct and easy to work with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo I did listen very carefully to the Associate Minister for the Environment\u2019s response to my earlier question, but she didn\u2019t address the issue I raised about being in a boat halfway between the shore and an invisible structure, such as a salmon farm, that wouldn\u2019t be visible from the shore but can be seen halfway out. Does the significant natural area aspect of consenting actually apply so that a person in a boat looking to the shore and seeing a beautiful SNA, significant natural area\u2014and there are a number of them in the Marlborough Sounds\u2014and then turning 180 degrees and looking out to the salmon farm or the structure or whatever it happens to be, it might be an oil rig, and being offended by it\u2014is that grounds for objection to a consent application?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7c22cfe292f4143b6601cafa3712c0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7c22cfe292f4143b6601cafa3712c0d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E On that point, we go back to Part 1 of the bill and the various different outcomes there. So they can be considerations, and of course it would depend on the circumstances of the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fefdaca644ff4af8acf04fbd53fe500b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fefdaca644ff4af8acf04fbd53fe500b\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m not sure that we\u2019re quite getting the clarity of answer that my colleague Stuart Smith was looking for, but none the less let\u2019s move on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to refer to clause 449, \u201CRequirements for offers for authorisations\u201D: \u201C(1) An offer for an authorisation must specify\u2014(a) the activity or range of activities for which the authorisation is sought; and (b) the site it applies to.\u201D I\u2019m interested, because the Minister has already told us that, essentially, this part of the bill is replicating existing Resource Management Act wording and format. That\u2019s, I guess, all fine and dandy to a point, but the issue that concerns me is will this legislation and these words and provisions in Part 7\u2014are they actually going to provide the futureproofing that we require? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAquaculture, the marine space\u2014the opportunities to commercialise it are rapidly expanding. My colleague Stuart Smith and also Simon Court have already mentioned offshore wind farms, for instance, but there\u2019s a whole range of new potential activity. For instance, in New Zealand, we don\u2019t do much in the way of kelp farming, yet other nations do, and what I want to be assured of is that there is enough flexibility in these provisions to meet opportunities that we may not yet have even considered. The science may not have even been developed yet, and I\u2019m not 100 percent sure that there is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a second point that I wanted to raise in relation to clause 454, and that\u2019s a clause that\u2019s headed up \u201CUse of tender money\u201D. What happens is that regional councils go through a process of tendering for commercial use of marine space. There is potential for a competitive environment. There\u2019s quite a lot of prescriptive stuff in clause 449 that relates to the tendering process. Clause 450 gives preferential rights to iwi when it comes to aquaculture and the tendering process. Some of that relates to previous Treaty settlement claims, and that\u2019s understood and is a given, but there\u2019s a commercial aspect to this in that the regional councils are incentivised to actually monetise the process of tendering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, coming back to clause 454, \u201CUse of tender money\u201D, it says that, \u201CThe regional council must apply its share of the remuneration to achieving the purpose of this Act in the coastal marine area in its region.\u201D, and I guess my question to the Minister is about the potential for that to, effectively, create a perverse incentive to commercialise in a way that may not otherwise occur. So for a regional council that wants to invest in improving its marine space, providing tidy-up work, or maybe some remediation of coastal erosion and a whole lot of that sort of stuff, which is expensive and potentially long term, they\u2019ll be looking for ways to generate revenue and income, but it\u2019s not necessarily going to come from ratepayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe use of the tender money, I think, is potentially an incentive to perversely commercialise that goes beyond what the Minister whose name this bill is in potentially may have considered. So I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s views and thoughts on that, and on whether there are going to be any restrictions on that\u2014particularly if a regional council is looking for a new source of revenue or an increased source of revenue, surely that then is an opportunity where a keen and eager regional council would say, \u201CHa, ha! Here\u2019s an opportunity for us to generate some revenue.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00222ded411fbd2e4a3f965075da3e0907fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ded411fbd2e4a3f965075da3e0907fb\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. I turn to clause\u00A0443, \u201CRegional council must offer authorisations if Minister of Conservation approves\u201D, and I know this relates to coastal and marine permits, and so on. But I go back to my earlier statement about how surprised I was, as was everyone who\u2019s ever come across the Department of Conservation\u2019s permitting habits, at how long it takes. For the Onslow geotechnical work, they got consents through. They gave it a fast-tracked process because they saw it as a project of national significance. It appears that at times and in certain circumstances, the Department of Conservation has primacy over the Minister for the Environment\u2014or that\u2019s what I take from that instance\u2014and yet we\u2019ve heard today that the Minister has said that Onslow will not get fast-tracked consenting, which, essentially, signs its death warrant, but this seems to be somewhat contradictory in clause 443. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s\u2014I know that this goes outside of this provision, but this provision seems to set it in stone that the Minister of Conservation has primacy over the Minister for regional councils, anyway, and, therefore, probably even the Minister for the Environment. So could I have some guidance on that from the Minister and some assurance that the Department of Conservation doesn\u2019t have this \u201CHenry VIII\u201D - type power over the environment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e553431eb0a54b1fbc30eeee36916299\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e553431eb0a54b1fbc30eeee36916299\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve noted previously, most of these provisions are very similar to the Resource Management Act. On the issue of tendering, I note that half of it does go into the public accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3d9870c207496baaeecd9ea0cddc7e\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can the Minister speak up? I didn\u2019t hear that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228591e49c8ecf49f48f7b983cb1751989\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, sorry, one of the members is just seeking clarification of your last\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed56d7918a374e0b8fc76d932f627985\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I was saying in the last point that half of that money does go into the public account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228c9757aeee9e4554a65e476f38e16d83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c9757aeee9e4554a65e476f38e16d83\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa383da0653d48268fa593f266a3a5ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa383da0653d48268fa593f266a3a5ce\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to raise issues relating to the suspension of applications to occupy common marine and coastal areas for the purposes of aquaculture activities. This is clause 455. Assuming that a commercial activity has been granted an approval to operate\u2014let\u2019s say a mussel farm or an oyster farm or fish farming, any of those sorts of things that may have occurred. Indeed, around my area\u2014in the beautiful Coromandel\u2014we have a fair amount of oyster and also, particularly, mussel farming. The green-lipped mussel is very popular, and it provides a great opportunity for fishing around the mussel farms. But we also have challenging issues with biosecurity matters, particularly relating specifically to a nasty thing called Caulerpa that is prevalent around Great Mercury Island, around Great Barrier, and also now in Northland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo the potential for biosecurity issues to arise and then having a regional council or a planning committee that is going to suspend, or seek to suspend, an existing commercial operation, I think, is something that is going to, sadly, probably become more prevalent as time goes by. We\u2019ve had a briefing at the Environment Committee about some of these invasive specifies, not necessarily always relating to the marine environment, but the marine environment is particularly susceptible. So my concern is that, if we don\u2019t manage those biosecurity issues carefully and well, there is a knock-on effect to the commercial operators who are not very far physically from where the contaminated and identified places have been put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister could give us some assurances that, under 455(1)(b), where there has been the identification of an actual or emerging biosecurity concern relating to aquaculture and activities, those matters will be appropriately and properly taken into account, and what that process might mean in terms of a speedy resolution to the conflict that exists between the commercial imperatives versus the marine biosecurity imperatives that are also equally compelling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddf48838053147b4ab9051885a49aa99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddf48838053147b4ab9051885a49aa99\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 7 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 389 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220008214475824c09bc1e9b7fda0f91af\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022865894b7bb9b47dcbab73745fe728cc4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 7 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 7 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3d31e75a43842cdb36e62f7334e4f33\u0022\u003EPart 8  Matters relevant to natural and built environment plans \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe55edc9d2e14bd2872ab12865a78aa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe55edc9d2e14bd2872ab12865a78aa6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 8, the debate on clauses 497 to 553, \u201CMatters relevant to natural and built environment plans\u201D. The question is that Part 8 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7649d91b28a4115a84d2ff152032ece\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7649d91b28a4115a84d2ff152032ece\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to discuss clause 500, \u201CCriteria for approval as requiring authority\u201D. Now, this will be particularly important to the energy sector, both for building new generation but also building new transmission and distribution lines as well as all of the associated activities that go with that such as substations and so on. I would like first to begin with the Minister giving an assurance that what we have today and what the sector is used to dealing with is materially the same as what this bill will do when it comes into force for a brief period before we repeal it after the election. So if you could just enlighten us on that, Minister, that would be much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a196f92d3c71445eb5d37ebd209ecc88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a196f92d3c71445eb5d37ebd209ecc88\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it\u2019s come somewhat as a disappointment that the Minister appears to have lost her voice and is seemingly no longer of a mood to answer questions. So maybe we\u2019ll continue on with Part 8. Again, this is a part of the clause\u2014Subpart 1 relates to designations, and again, my suspicion is that much of this wording will have come from the existing Resource Management Act. But that said, there are a couple of changes that I see that have been made in terms of the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. They appear to be minor, but at 509(3), there are some typographical changes that I suspect are more to do with form than substance. But those are the matters that relate to iwi M\u0101ori. I\u2019m keen to know what the Minister\u2019s view is about the designations; is she happy and satisfied that they are sufficiently robust and futureproofed to ensure that the objectives of the total bill will be met given that this appears to be largely a cut and paste of existing provisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe had been told that much of this bill was designed to make things easier, to make them smoother, and yet the reality, as we\u2019ve debated at length, has been that much of these clauses right through in Subpart 1 are, on the face of it, pieces of legislation that are going to make things more complicated, more expensive, and more confusing for lay people. So if the Minister could give us an insight into why the few changes that have been made have been made, and why perhaps there hasn\u2019t been a more radical review of designations and matters that are relevant to the natural and built environment plan process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee67a23e320d4075972057959ec7e4e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee67a23e320d4075972057959ec7e4e7\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In relation to the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s point about changes in the Supplementary Order Paper, I\u2019m advised that, yes, they are all technical in nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ERelated to Scott Simpson\u2019s points about\u2014sorry, you are Scott Simpson. Related to Stuart Smith\u2019s point\u2014it would be good if you didn\u2019t sit next to each other!\u2014about who can be a requiring authority, generally, as the Hon Scott Simpson just said, most of this is taken from the Resource Management Act (RMA). But one of the changes from the RMA is wider access to the designation powers, and that these will be in effect straight away. So it will be more useful than the current RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4b63a0798864bb29693f71739c773d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4b63a0798864bb29693f71739c773d2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m hoping to get some enlightened clarification from the Minister in the chair, particularly thinking back to her illustrious career as a resource management lawyer at a time when, in my role as a construction manager, I might have come to her for advice, and particularly when it comes to the matter of designation and notices of requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo for those members in the Chamber who are not familiar with this aspect of the current resource management law, if you\u2019re an asset owner, if you want to build an airport, if you want to build a State highway or a road, or if you have a water pipeline to construct at some point in the future, you use a designation tool under the current Resource Management Act, which is also provided for in this bill in clause 503, Minister, on page 349, which allows an asset owner or a future asset owner to say, \u201CThis is the corridor that crosses people\u2019s land in which we want to build our infrastructure, but we\u2019re not quite sure when we\u2019re coming to build it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EOf course, no one\u2019s quite sure, because this Government doesn\u2019t have a 30-year infrastructure plan that ACT would introduce, and, in fact, there is no funding for infrastructure assured, whether it\u2019s a State highway network, or even three waters, after the proposed reform proposal. But what organisations like the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) trading as Waka Kotahi do, they get a magic marker like this one and they draw a map across people\u2019s private property where they want the road to go in future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give the example of the next stage of State Highway 1 Warkworth to Wellsford, which designates a whole lot of private property\u2014farmland, for example, and even some business-zoned land\u2014between the towns of Warkworth and Wellsford and Auckland for a future four- to six-laning highway project. Everyone knows it\u2019s desperately necessary, because the current highway route through Dome Valley is regularly subject to slips and floods and has closed, diverting traffic on to much less suitable local roads, which cannot handle heavy traffic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, under the notice of requirement for designation, primary and secondary construction notices (CIPs) must be lodged with the territorial authority and identify where this activity is going to take place. But if we look at the requirement under clause\u00A0504(4) for a secondary CIP\u2014now, this might sound pretty technical to people, but imagine you want to build a road 10 years in the future. You want to secure the land so someone else doesn\u2019t come and build, I don\u2019t know, a power station in the way or build a whole residential subdivision in the way. You must designate that land and put a notice of requirement over it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut what this requires is that even though you haven\u2019t done the design yet, you don\u2019t know all of those factors that are going to come into the final delivery of the project\u2014whether you might want to add on a cycleway or a pedestrian bridge as well, where the on-ramps and off-ramps are going to go. But under clause 504(4) and 504(5), the secondary CIP must show the likely finished contours; the location on the site of the public works, and the height, shape, and bulk; vehicle access, circulation, and provision for parking; and landscaping. Minister, all these won\u2019t be delivered until at least the preliminary design, if not the detailed design stage. There is no public sector entity that is going to provide this level of detail when they go and seek a designation for a corridor, unless they were already budgeted to do all of that design work that normally doesn\u2019t happen for some years down the track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, we know this has caused a problem. It caused a problem with the Northern Corridor Improvements project in Auckland where NZTA and its partners applied for a designation and were required to include all of this detail that meant when the designer came along to do the final design, they said, \u201CWe can\u2019t work with this stuff in the notice of requirement. You\u2019ve given us conditions that we can\u2019t meet, we can\u2019t design around. The project isn\u2019t going to proceed. We\u2019re not going to get the benefits out of it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, would you clarify what circumstances require this level of detail? Is this practical and how will this affect actual delivery of projects, say, that the private sector through a public-private partnership, wanting to bring innovation, lessons learnt from overseas where they\u2019ve actually built roads using tolling that people can get to get around on at 130 kilometres an hour like in Texas, which I visited last year? Will this make it harder to build, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc664fc86e814e5082b4e0a1b3044a33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc664fc86e814e5082b4e0a1b3044a33\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I just want to note that the problems that the member was speaking about are problems under the Resource Management Act, and that is why there is now this spatial footprint process which is at clause 505(1)(c), also noting, of course, the increase in lapse from five years to 10 years will help with those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225d9844a716574511964e695beecb34c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d9844a716574511964e695beecb34c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbfa41ded59e41d89ccca301449440b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbfa41ded59e41d89ccca301449440b5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Natural and Built Environment Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd8163f6b6354857a054af6b3a0adf84\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da6f61a66127411994f046e20af09b1e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dad4d13023794b06943ed00761217067\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dad4d13023794b06943ed00761217067\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal explanation to clarify part of an answer to oral question No. 7, on 25 July 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222656334534264a06b105758584482a4f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223007144e54244f04adaa9ef428bddd69\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday, in my responses to supplementary questions to oral question No. 7, on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment, I stated that the Government has changed the criteria for access to the special needs grant for dental treatment so that, among other things, people are supported to access what would be considered normal dental appointments for fillings or check-ups, and to get the kinds of appointments to make sure that they have regular oral health checks. I want to clarify that dental grants, which have historically only been available for emergency care, now also cover all immediate and essential dental care. This means New Zealanders can get support through the grant for most treatments, including things like fillings and infections, and it includes consultations and dental professionals, but only where they lead to immediate and essential care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002247536d3ecea4445b838c2050908f1cab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247536d3ecea4445b838c2050908f1cab\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House stands adjourned until 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023072564b00bbcd9d84b548ed0695687143eb7000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"