"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220591b0eb05da491297191c208fbb997a\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 1 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f46ae96ee31b484484375f7348a7d8b6\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 1 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220854fb60230e4248a1f35b6ad805c225\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022109894d6fa9844cc82bf5b7bf2700ebc\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00229876f968d4bc4808a405a598ebd12158\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229876f968d4bc4808a405a598ebd12158\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, in celebration of Cook Islands Language Week, I\u2019ve asked the Hon Poto Williams to say the prayer in te reo M\u0101ori Kuki Airani. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u002242e5c4ff7e634dd1b489d8aead78a8cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242e5c4ff7e634dd1b489d8aead78a8cf\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Te Atua Mana, te akameitaki atu nei matou iakoe no toou takinga meitaki taau i riringi mai ki runga ia matou. Te akaruke nei matou i to matou tu tangata, te akamaara nei matou i te Ariki, e te pure nei matou kia arataki koe i ta matou uriuri anga manako, kia rave matou i ta matou angaanga i roto i teia ngutuare na roto i te pakari, te tuatua tika e te akaaka no te meitaki e te au o to matou basileia Aotearoa. Amene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224472bbf1a8984970bc9ecdca53a5c689\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002228f024b3b1bc4c2e93be94674db88e76\u0022\u003ESri Lanka\u2014Women Parliamentarians\u2019 Caucus\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdcb9853b778410e91cd13b26f9cc4de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdcb9853b778410e91cd13b26f9cc4de\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would wish to welcome the Hon Dr Sudarshini Fernandopulle, chairperson of the Women Parliamentarians\u2019 Caucus from the Parliament of Sri Lanka, and her accompanying delegation, who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223467ac454ab949f5b6d5f96fc39ce3f3\u0022\u003EPrivilege\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222abcd19425574ea2bed7877057d5d00f\u0022\u003EConduct of Member towards Chairperson of Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00229986443f2dd94b178e3f455a4214ef4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229986443f2dd94b178e3f455a4214ef4a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I have received a letter from Rachel Boyack raising a matter of privilege: Tim van de Molen\u2019s conduct towards the chairperson of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on 29 June 2023. There are differing accounts of what occurred at the conclusion of the committee\u2019s meeting. If the allegations are accurate, the conduct complained of could amount to threatening or intimidating a member acting in the discharge of their duty, or threatening a member on account of their conduct in Parliament. The Speaker\u2019s role in such matters is to determine whether the facts alleged could, if true, amount to a breach of privilege or contempt of the House. The Speaker does not inquire into the veracity of the evidence presented, or conduct an inquiry into the allegation. That is the role of the Privileges Committee. I find that a question of privilege arises, and that question stands referred to the Privileges Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c35119bfd358480dad0eb2343ae1fa71\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002272c1c24962694161ac0934edbc3c6e32\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022404a43b7e6bf46c1bcda2cf1c8aef0a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022404a43b7e6bf46c1bcda2cf1c8aef0a5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002206e0c3bb795f4f338167a6279bcb06c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206e0c3bb795f4f338167a6279bcb06c7\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Mahi for Ukraine on \u201CDeclaring Russia a Terrorist State\u201D, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee: Petition of Democracy for Myanmar Working Group New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022 annual report for Te P\u016Bkenga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estatements of intent for the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EElectricity Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Infrastructure Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Police, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ERau Paenga Limited\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-24 statements of performance expectations for the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ETertiary Education Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EElectricity Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Infrastructure Commission, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ERau Paenga Limited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00227eb02daec0a74ce695d8d10681c9c42f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227eb02daec0a74ce695d8d10681c9c42f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022e333ca935b8948e997b53c5ca26d3652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e333ca935b8948e997b53c5ca26d3652\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2021-22 annual review of the Crown Regional Holdings Limited, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2021-22 annual review of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the petition of Morteza Sharifi and Petition of Aida Tavassoli\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Anthony Gore\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Primary Production Committee on the briefing on Muka Tangata\u2019s work plan\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the briefing on Animal Welfare Secondary Legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Social Services and Community Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of the Retirement Village Residents Association, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EResale Right for Visual Artists Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00225e90cb2f46744c92be16c29d382ffe80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e90cb2f46744c92be16c29d382ffe80\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. The reports of the Primary Production Committee and the Regulations Review Committee are set down for consideration. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b0f0ee0d902548c9b6c5cf686a262c8a\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6d42a0ddf5249fe8d10b7479ae37e62\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271e95c7bb4a6472d87039d6e270dc89d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00229292fc513d2747e1b79afbf87b5c111e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229292fc513d2747e1b79afbf87b5c111e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What unused revenue tools, if any, are available to the Government that would both increase allowances and enable better investment in public services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002295d9ac1b8a9b4511a46299c56a040c60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295d9ac1b8a9b4511a46299c56a040c60\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. The answer to that hypothetical question is limited only by the member\u2019s imagination. However, I would note that the implementation of any such tool is limited by what is practical and affordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dedeeac37214a37932ddc61380975f8\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What is the effective tax rate paid by the wealthiest 1 percent of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc789bf202294e858f7c778ec8300697\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: If I recall the Inland Revenue research that was released earlier this year, it\u2019s about 8.9 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220abaed3aa2b24d91a9da100f6758a6fd\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: And what is the effective tax rate paid by the average New Zealander?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e20946522b44108a30ab34ca72cbb32\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am enjoying quiz time. I believe it might be around about 20 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca9ee4fc220143b5b37909b408f2d586\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: And does he agree with the Prime Minister: \u201CWe don\u2019t have a great money tree in the backyard that means that we can continue to indefinitely increase Government spending, we have to pay for everything somehow.\u201D, and, if so, how much revenue did Treasury predict could be raised with a tax of 1.5 percent on net assets over $5 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ecbed94396c45e1840ed47c805e99a9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, despite extensive searching, no such money tree has been found, although looking at the transport policy produced by the National Party in the last few days, they appear to have found some magic money to the tune of about $10 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba7df52ed0fe42a5ad58c2d5c583ccfa\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: How much revenue did Treasury predict could be raised with a wealth tax of 1.5 percent on net assets over $5 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7ea2ebd365a4d74afd9bdde4fcf356e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, if I recall correctly\u2014and enjoying the quiz that we\u2019re going through at the moment\u2014not including the family home, I believe about $3.4\u00A0billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263c35d4499194197847ee325d03572e5\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: And what would the cost be of lifting the 45,000 children who are still currently below the material hardship line above that line, excluding household costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201226037e71146a391daaa97a9ae29d2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t have that information with me. I\u2019m very proud of the record that the Government has in terms of lifting children out of poverty\u201477,000 children, using the after - housing costs measure. There is always more to do when it comes to supporting our children to thrive. What we could not do and could not afford is tax cuts that aren\u2019t funded and would lead to cuts in the services that those children need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220705b3ef941b4f0a8bef6befda45e132\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002205d9a10ceb4e4229a45827ddbc0efdc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205d9a10ceb4e4229a45827ddbc0efdc2\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022906bd93ca3a84b178b996f0402a809b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022906bd93ca3a84b178b996f0402a809b4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the further $567\u00A0million we announced yesterday for immediate works on State highways in regions that are affected by the North Island weather events. That includes State highways in Tair\u0101whiti, Wairoa, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Coromandel, and Northland. The funding for these roads is coming from the $6 billion national resilience plan that the Government allocated funding for in this year\u2019s Budget. It\u2019ll go to replacing or strengthening and rebuilding damaged bridges and improving road surfaces on major stretches of roads. This, of course, comes on top of the $525 million already provided for roading infrastructure to get those regions back on their feet after Cyclone Gabrielle and the Auckland floods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c85e246af9b45d19456072aa1d4d19e\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that Cyclone Gabrielle hit Hawke\u2019s Bay and Tair\u0101whiti in February, and how is it possibly his go-to boast policy that he has managed, after six months, to announce they\u2019re going to fund rebuilding the roads that were damaged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ee5afb6e1847108f2705da492b629f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I know the member clearly didn\u2019t listen to the entirety of the answer. We\u2019ve already given them $525 million for the road rebuilding; that was done within weeks of the events happening. We\u2019re now adding another $567 million, because we don\u2019t think they should have to put up with Bailey bridges indefinitely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290721c1dee984fe59d20578356f6abfa\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Cwe don\u2019t have a \u2026 money tree in the backyard that means we can continue to indefinitely increase government spending\u201D, and if that\u2019s the case, how does he explain the last six Budgets, where his Government has increased expenditure by 70 percent for no measurable outcome improvements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a6df2bd0949453aa7be7643c064c475\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, I do stand by my comments, in the first part of that question, and I utterly reject the second.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecc0af8a59484fd684d44a74d72d51f0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can he, then, explain to New Zealanders in tangible, relatable terms, what actual outcomes have improved\u2014not examples of where the Government spent more, but where the outcomes achieved have got better; 70 percent better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d5ad20c77d47f8af0d2d19d6ad80d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, I could go on and on about it, but I\u2019ll give the member a few just to get him started. How about 77,000 fewer children living in poverty under this Government? How about an economy that\u2019s grown 6.7 percent under this Government? How about the 12,000 additional public homes that have been put in place under this Government, after the number of public homes went down under the last National-ACT Government? We could talk about the share of renewable electricity being the highest in a very long time\u2014in fact, possibly forever. We could talk about the fact that we\u2019ve increased paid parental leave entitlements\u2014that is thousands more Kiwi families enjoying extra paid parental leave. And if the member thinks that that\u2019s not leading to better outcomes for those babies, then perhaps he needs to think again about how he measures the value of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbd68f2fcd9f4bc8835dcb3dd43492dd\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that he just explained the economy grew at a smidgen over 1 percent a year and he built 2,000 houses a year for six years in return for a 70 percent increase in public expenditure\u2014is that what this Government calls success, and is that what they\u2019re taking into the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280388e9b65d941bda973afc9200c4ed7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the population has grown and incomes have grown during that time as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022145502946e6b4ced965cbc4453b3084e\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister now claiming that the population has grown because Government expenditure\u2019s increased, or is he really saying that he\u2019d like to hide from the fact that, after inflation and after population growth, the amount spent in real terms per capita is up 28 percent and he\u2019s got nothing tangible to show for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f31fd352cccb4a86b671121c18c24896\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295549a6cf4f64fc1a745add522c9f083\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his various statements praising police, and will they receive a 14.5 percent increase in pay this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ff6d698f47474886d10c2099ac2acb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, I believe the police do an exceptional job on behalf of New Zealanders. In answer to the second part of the question, I don\u2019t intend to get into bargaining in question time\u2014no Prime Minister or Minister would ever do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f64fdb263645d6a0d2827356b20cf9\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say for this Government\u2019s economic management that they have borrowed an additional $121 billion over the last six Budgets and are now struggling to meet the arbitration recommended offer to pay teachers more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216683ce8dedf467fa918a24d1b2f34ac\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: With regard to arbitration, of course, the teachers would not be asking for such big pay increases had they had pay increases during the time of the nine years that the National Party was in Government, when their salaries actually went backwards in real terms. But in terms of the Government\u2019s overall level of borrowing, I would note that one of the big contributors to that was supporting New Zealanders through a once-in-a-generation economic shock caused by a global pandemic and, during that time, the members opposite including the member himself were arguing we should\u2019ve been spending more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c6401bb9b7445dfb85bd2d7d9784e7c\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister also want to take the credit for spending $100,000 a day to store $531 million\u2014that\u2019s over half a billion bucks\u2014of expired rapid antigen tests (RATs) after the Government, for months and months, in fact over a year, banned anyone else from importing them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c67912473e964f19b27532c82d8160f8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member can\u2019t seem to get his story straight. He keeps complaining that we didn\u2019t have enough RAT tests; now he\u2019s complaining we\u2019ve got too many of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f6fdc14daea467e913f2db4b29aec68\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Cyclone Recovery\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002289ab528dc5cf4d4fb16c90e498c3469c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289ab528dc5cf4d4fb16c90e498c3469c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 3, T\u0101mati Coffey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u00220b344bd7f7414709b44fe31b5ddbe856\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b344bd7f7414709b44fe31b5ddbe856\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] My question\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022821c4375f8bc45f3b0c44c84514b176a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019d like to hear this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7b3dd1f47de4025bd92729e66d09436\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7b3dd1f47de4025bd92729e66d09436\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Cyclone Recovery: What recent announcements has he made on support for cyclone-affected regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a25c35ca0a244c98b8bb0fe167f67927\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a25c35ca0a244c98b8bb0fe167f67927\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Cyclone Recovery):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is providing a further $567 million to Waka Kotahi for immediate works on State highways in Tair\u0101whiti, Wairoa, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Coromandel, and Northland. The funding will come from the $6 billion national resilience plan announced in Budget 2023 to support the building of infrastructure that is more resilient to the impacts of climate change. As I\u2019ve said previously, the immediate focus is on building back better from the North Island weather events. Over time, the plan will address the severe infrastructure deficits that have been holding New Zealand back. I would also note that the investment announced yesterday is on top of the $525 million already provided to Waka Kotahi in the immediate aftermath of the cyclone. Connecting our community is critical to getting our regions back on their feet and that is why we are supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205f9439d474e4c87aaa5703fb8c72155\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What else did the announcement say about building resilience in the transport infrastructure in cyclone-affected regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259c469e657d1423883ff9946536ff7f3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: This extra funding will be used to replace or strengthen or rebuild damaged bridges and roads in affected regions. It will also improve the road surface on major stretches of roads where potholes and cracks left after the weather events have made travel slow and frustrating for locals. Some specific examples include on State Highway 35 rebuilding the Hikuwai Bridge; repairs and rebuilding of bridges on State Highway 2 north of Napier; and the State Highway\u00A01 Brynderwyn to Dome Valley section. In addition to this funding for State highways, the Government has already made a significant contribution to local road repairs in the regions which are normally the responsibility of local government. This amounts to around $210 million since February this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd26321b94e44009ba42a137dc2e9769\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What other announcements has the Government made to support the regions affected by the cyclone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228333c97fed44485b846c3cfe9883570f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has negotiated a cost-sharing package with Hawke\u2019s Bay mayors and the regional council chair. This includes the cost of buying out high-risk residential properties in the region on a cost-sharing basis. The mayors have agreed to take the package to their councils and they will meet to discuss it this week. The priority areas of the overall package will be addressing category 3 property buy-outs, flood protection, and urgent roading and bridge repairs. As I\u2019ve said previously, we are moving as quickly as we can in supporting councils with their locally led recovery. The agreements that we\u2019ve reached with the region\u2019s leaders will give the people of Hawke\u2019s Bay certainty. Councils are now being asked to look at the package, ratify it, and consult with their communities as appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c813963a2234ca0b0114ee50ad7a799\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What work is the Government doing with other councils affected by the recent weather events?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b855aa4342714f6f8caa359a64a860fb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Negotiations with Auckland and Tair\u0101whiti on cost-sharing arrangements are progressing well and we\u2019re hopeful that agreements can be reached in these regions shortly. Alongside these negotiations, the Crown is working through a process and support package for whenua M\u0101ori and communities affected in the regions that have a large amount of M\u0101ori land. Funding for this work sits outside the cost of the cost-sharing arrangements with councils. We are committed to working together with all affected communities, iwi, and councils to find solutions for recovery and rebuild. As I\u2019ve said previously, we cannot meet all the costs, particularly as we know that there will be more extreme weather events like this. We are striking a balance between supporting affected communities without taxpayers having to bear all of the cost of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fc1247bdd9f45589c36bfaf9ef840c8\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is he satisfied with the political impartiality of all his cyclone recovery taskforce members?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298411cebe8e04d2db9b22a94e65ab480\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d66032d02f3543f4a8e99b275ea917d9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224acb6d9a0e3b4bc2afbe9b379f8d08fa\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am. The cyclone recovery taskforce is doing an excellent job of making sure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb0986f1ad9f45258aae4c4957770897\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yeah\u2014yeah, yeah, yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228a1fbc2697e49b8b972415ed84d6cf3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m interested, you know, that the members opposite want to impugn the integrity of people who have put their hands up including, I might say, one of their former colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a010a73955a0437894f957072a0d7461\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022edb465bb6a864a6a9898f54655dc4929\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edb465bb6a864a6a9898f54655dc4929\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00226d1f7f250d5e4749989a463db5fcc2dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d1f7f250d5e4749989a463db5fcc2dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly our commitment to ensuring that New Zealanders in need have access to public housing. One in seven of the total public housing stock has been added by this Government. Year on year, we\u2019re delivering the most public homes of any Government since the Nash Government in the 1950s, which is a stark contrast to what we inherited when we became the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271c75b0a20aa45429b49d2be520ac4e6\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was former transport Minister Michael Wood right or wrong when he said the $30 billion Auckland light rail project was \u201Ca necessary investment\u201D, and why after six years can\u2019t the Prime Minister commit to a route or any other details?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b55ea53eed3a4f0dbfcf0380db42bef1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Work is under way on planning for a route, including identifying the preferred route for Auckland light rail and including identifying the most desirable construction method, whether it should go over the ground or under the ground, and we\u2019re awaiting the results of that business case process. I would note, for example, that some of the roading projects that National promised in its transport package that it announced yesterday, they\u2019d also promised back in 2008, and in nine years in Government didn\u2019t deliver them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a7dd57e4eec476b99bae18e8c7bc7d3\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why after six years of Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving failing to deliver a single transport project is he still not even sure if it\u2019s going ahead or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceaada55167343e2b1f721cdb8c8a6af\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the member\u2019s characterisation of my comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224acec31b54e443dba17c8c5c9724fec9\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was Carmel Sepuloni right or wrong when she said about crime in Auckland, \u201CI wouldn\u2019t say it\u2019s that bad at all\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c70cd720cc9343aab8611d12d49d8594\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member should stick to full quotes, rather than partial pieces of them. If he wants us to start partially quoting him, we\u2019re going to have a lot of fun with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f6c55a070c24512937e915e8efd79d7\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was police Minister Ginny Andersen right or wrong when she said New Zealanders feel safer, when violent crime is up 33 percent and there are two ram raids in New Zealand every day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fedd3c4fd7d4b7a875cc954e66d99f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member is deliberately taking the member\u2019s quote out of context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022388d086bb300460485882bfd3314cf29\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was Grant Robertson right or wrong when he said that taking GST off food would mostly benefit supermarkets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610f5b11641e44d7a264202768f83a09\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a question that you might want to ask him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022847926c9e4e948fdaf3301ed5b44d8da\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Under the bus\u2014under the bus again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9549e8b2544bb8acc57f46bcc2367d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, quiet! I want to hear this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227349d5cd82b24972be81a9cc01fb8a7c\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was Grant Robertson\u2019s Tax Working Group right or wrong when it said that removing GST from food and drink would benefit higher-income households more than lower-income households?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226da58f9a2924de28e8f402339d9cd68\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I have no problems with what the Tax Working Group concluded. The report\u2019s publicly available. Everyone can make their own judgments on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d92c6380cc2428eac1a5fb859db63f8\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that whether it\u2019s tax or transport or, frankly, any other issue, he can tell the country what he won\u2019t do, but he can\u2019t tell the country what he will do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db9296801f2457b8d0c9e932034e200\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I completely reject that. If the member paid attention during the Budget, for example, he will see a range of new initiatives in the Budget, including removing the $5 prescription co-payments, something the National Party said they\u2019ll take away; adding 20 hours free early childhood education to two-year-olds, something the National Party has said they\u2019ll take away; making public transport free for young children, and half-price for under-25s, something the National Party won\u2019t commit to; providing healthy homes or insulation for 100,000 more homes, something the National Party don\u2019t seem to know what they\u2019re going to do. On this side of the House, we do focus, however, on making sure that the announcements that we make actually have money behind them\u2014something the National Party still don\u2019t seem to be able to do. I would note that in July 2017 the Labour Party released a comprehensive fiscal plan ahead of the general election, and yet it\u2019s now August; nothing but crickets from the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022546e487be152408685a7b84c722bbd8c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u00221ba4ff57f77e4b288a96a6f970082f5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ba4ff57f77e4b288a96a6f970082f5d\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What progress has the Government made in rebuilding public housing in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002201c5aeae55564300b724290d22108983\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201c5aeae55564300b724290d22108983\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to report that the Government has added more than 13,000 new public homes since October 2017. Of the 13,305 homes, 11,285 of these are new builds. In June 2023 alone, 1,107 public homes were added to the national stock. This is the highest monthly delivery of public homes by K\u0101inga Ora ever. To put our public house building programme in perspective, one in seven homes has been added by this Government in the last five years. I am proud to be part of a Government that is delivering the biggest public housing build programme per year since the 1950s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221be6ed799c37428cb6454bd100b6c535\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: How has delivery improved in the regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d1db2fe52b24398ab7366181f1e9555\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday, I had the pleasure of being in Masterton to welcome the return of new Government-owned public homes in the area for the first time in two decades. Along with the 21 Masterton homes and two new homes in Dannevirke, the developments represent the first step in a commitment to delivering a larger pipeline of housing projects in the region, with at least 80 new homes in the construction, planning, or feasibility stages. This Government has added almost 300 public homes across Northland since October 2017. This stands in stark contrast to the National Party, who, in the nine years in Government, reduced the number of public homes in Northland by 93. In Kerikeri, a community housing provider\u2019s build-to-own development for 10 public housing places was completed in March this year. The homes in the area are in high demand and are managed by Habitat for Humanity Northland Region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257d98318170a4ff88ac23fe79818f8d3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Number one. First of all, that answer was far too long. It\u2019s been a long time in this House that using a supplementary question from the Government to the Government to attack the Opposition is out of order. I will give the Opposition spokesperson two questions, if he wishes to use them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254eb116c0c414cdbad7a1544de91844a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that, after six years, the Government\u2019s housing record stands at rents up $170 per week, a quadrupling in the State house waiting list, thousands of families living in motels, and hundreds living in cars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f226754defd43be9cc4d88257a3cea0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: What I can confirm is this is a Government that has admitted there is a housing crisis and has a plan to address it. That does stand in stark contrast to nine years under a previous National Government; that even when you accounted for the transfer of community housing providers (CHPs), they ended up with 1,500 fewer public houses than they started with. Not only did they flog off our houses but they also failed to build them. We would have over 20,000 more public houses in New Zealand today if we didn\u2019t have a National Government between 2008 and 2017 who had a dereliction of duty when it came to housing; that would account to 85 percent of the waiting list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022097b1d8169694d569234eca9aad824ba\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the promised 100,000 KiwiBuild houses have been built?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022714ebc4c171641f194b84e7fc3c61cf7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: As the member well knows, there has been a reset of KiwiBuild, but what I can tell that member is vastly more than the less than 100 affordable homes that the previous National Government managed under their housing areas when they were in Government. It\u2019s time for the National Party to start putting up some policies that are actually going to address a housing crisis, because we have not seen any. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9301c487d784a9dbca7f2fcbeeb4305\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government working with community housing providers in its public housing programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221db7e3181fed4a17a2f1f5215d32a1c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is committed to partnering with community housing providers to deliver our public house build programme. We are seeing growth in the CHP sector, with the number of registered CHPs growing from 43 when we came into office to 74 providers today. Since October 2017, CHPs have supported the delivery of 7,444 homes\u20141,944 of these being new builds. We also have changed the funding settings for CHPs to support them to deliver new houses and focus on increasing supply in the regions through changes to the Operating Supplement cap and the introduction of early-stage operational funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c268871c81849d9af28ad62400f1eaa\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: What more does the Government have planned for public housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f936ca3f10aa41f992779d7328fcbbfe\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: In Budget 2023, the Government announced an additional 3,000 public homes by June 2025. These additional homes build on the 18,000 homes we have committed to delivering by 2024. The updated public housing plan through to 2025 will have a focus on regional delivery as well as maintaining momentum of the current pipeline. At my request, officials are developing bottom-up delivery plans, working with community housing providers, stress testing the supply pipeline, and analysing existing demand data. Details of the plan will be released by early September. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f43ca1ca7764b73b83aed25ed447546\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002223a02a05b7a94cbd95b9193c79d8d850\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223a02a05b7a94cbd95b9193c79d8d850\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions on tax policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002277db649a443f4326be2582b2e56770f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277db649a443f4326be2582b2e56770f5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context that they were made and undertaken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc273f021f704d1481f4886ca0b07bc5\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement made earlier this year that taking GST off food would mostly benefit supermarkets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022281281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc49f0de683c41508779077a9a9ff6b3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by the statements I made in the context in which they were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223de00339f69d445d85a4f4fef2e2a86d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement in relation to exempting food from GST: \u201Cother countries with more exemptions will know it becomes an absolute boondoggle to get through.\u201D, and what exactly did he mean by \u201Cboondoggle\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204014e22e0ee4e76874f78a48199b3c9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very pleased that the word \u201Cboondoggle\u201D is getting a run in Parliament\u2014one of my favourite phrases. I do, obviously, stand\u2014as I said\u2014by the statements in the context in which they were made. I\u2019d also note for the member, there are a few things that have been called boondoggles over the years that turned out all right. The Sydney Opera House was one of those, and the Hubble Space Telescope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277872891fc7a42f686f0211d052b7d14\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Was he correct when he identified definitional concerns about the removal of GST from fresh fruit or vegetables: \u201Cyou get into an argument about what\u2019s the difference between beetroot and canned beetroot, and if you want to make a real impact on the lowest income people you wouldn\u2019t cut the tax off fresh beetroot\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249213a4699634408932b45ac03d9483d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, as a former fruit and vege worker in a supermarket, discussion about beetroot is one that I am particularly pleased to have here. My father used to put beetroot on scones, which is not something I would support New Zealanders doing. I stand by the answers I have already given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253df3109f7af4011a531c3593a48df24\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Was former revenue Minister David Parker correct to agree\u2014in a report from 2013\u2014that removing GST from fruit and vegetables would have \u201Copened exploitable and confusing loopholes, and dirtied an otherwise clean tax\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a7456edf9b947698c385f6489a02f78\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In this House, I am responsible for my own statements. I stand by the statements I have made in the context that they have been made. What I do think is incredibly important about taxation policy is that you show how you can pay for it. If you can\u2019t show how you can pay for it, as the member can\u2019t, that means cuts to public services. That\u2019s what is important in tax policy, and we do not have a funded tax policy from the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e286cc3a7434376b20b1689b81fb6df\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Would he support a tax policy to remove GST from fruit and vegetables?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a326d7c165488192c5220c66b596bc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said many times in this House, the Government has completed its tax work programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ce0523019db436dbfc4ae6690eb97bf\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002250a38d74901c4d84be1409b5821066ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250a38d74901c4d84be1409b5821066ab\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What progress has the Government made in improving school buildings and property since 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00224b9ee64e4b0846e78ed4552d80b33d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b9ee64e4b0846e78ed4552d80b33d3f\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E This Government has made huge progress on improving school property and buildings since 2017. We know that having warm, dry, and fit-for-purpose classrooms is vital for the educational outcomes of our kids. Since 2017, 98 percent of schools have received funding for property upgrades through the School Investment Package, 5YA, Ng\u0101 iti Kahurangi, and the National School Redevelopment Programme. Of the 14,686 projects which have been undertaken across these programmes since 2017, 50 percent are complete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b99b60b445a40dda73b3d41ae7e1c61\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: How has the school improvement package benefited schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022893ba203132f4f3cbcd521aefd2f90b8\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: The school improvement package was introduced to give schools the opportunity to bring forward their discretionary projects and enhance their facilities for students. Of the 2,054 schools with school improvement package funding\u2014or SIP projects\u2014more than 90 percent of schools have had at least one SIP project completed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd86f2c0b282475d81611bfef7a36d65\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government supporting schools with buildings and property affected by the North Island weather events?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022116e68ddf48a42bfa117ec32c1f63681\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Following the devastating weather events earlier this year, the Government provided immediate funding for the repairs to over 500 damaged schools. We have also committed to return all schools impacted by the Auckland flooding and Cyclone Gabrielle to their pre - weather-event state through the cyclone recovery package. We know that this has been an incredibly unsettling time for our young people, and this will ensure our schools and communities have some certainty over their futures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b846d1a574064419b9d4afe85adfc674\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: How does this support wider investment in education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278966bad2a3e46c4bc621f796d0dbe9a\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Having fit-for-purpose classrooms is an important foundation for education. We are also providing healthy school lunches, free period products, and supporting school attendance. We are taking action to improve the Curriculum and ensuring that NCEA is providing students with the skills they need for a successful life and, as I always say, a life full of choices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e62333409e1647ee91cbca80ce71bb10\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Given those answers, can she explain why, despite a 2019 announcement from the then education Minister, Chris Hipkins, that Ellesmere College in Leeston would have a $30 million rebuild to be completed next year, that school has now been advised that this project has been pushed out to 2028 due to a \u201Csignificant shortfall of funds\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb3bcf69a6d24479a57a04917e9f1cbf\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: The member made an assertion at the beginning of that statement that had nothing to do with the Ellesmere College projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242b8fe6b0868404ba2d478f61e583648\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How long does it usually take the Minister to reply to correspondence from her office, and when can my constituents at Victoria Avenue School expect a reply from this Minister in relation to my letter to her about the parlous state of their buildings, which are leaking, sliding down a hill, and flooded due to varying issues that they face? When can they get a reply, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acbfeff23ea442b1ad90f763bda59ed8\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: If the member actually contacts my office, we\u2019ll be happy to give him a time for that reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223811d823ade74ef0856ffd4bf15156ac\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Given that capital works project funding was granted in 2018 for \u014Cp\u014Dtiki College, which is a decile 2D school, which was also at the same time that Tauranga Boys\u2019 College, a decile 6 then, and Lynmore Primary School, decile 9, were also granted funding under the same scheme\u2014both Tauranga Boys\u2019 College and Lynmore Primary School have had their projects completed since funding was granted in 2018, but \u014Cp\u014Dtiki has not had any projects completed under this funding grant. Why has the Ministry of Education and you, as the Minister, not prioritised the completion of upgrades and rebuilds for \u014Cp\u014Dtiki College?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4eee264e57b4569ae95baede4619e54\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: \u014Cp\u014Dtiki College has actually got quite a number of complex issues that are within it, and we are working through that, but if the member would like to have that conversation with me\u2014I know the member wants to meet with me after question time\u2014I\u2019m really happy to have that conversation, and let\u2019s find a way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257806c83ae1847c4b7f48a795b3f641d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave to table emails and records showing that I\u2019ve followed up with the Minister\u2019s office not once, not twice, but three times over the last two months, trying to get her to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210875561ccfb4f1eb73581e5a04212d3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. They may be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a82ab7bf614ea895ee0e4245838c1c\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. In the supplementary question that Nicola Grigg asked the Minister, the Minister\u2019s reply was that the question contained an assertion that was incorrect. Would it be appropriate for the Minister to point to the assertion that was incorrect\u2014not explain why it wasn\u2019t, but which part of the question she disputed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022864c1e384c4c4a779952292b8d1edd52\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: To be frank, I\u2019m not sure. What I will do, as we\u2019re still on the same question, is I\u2019m going to give her an extra supplementary, and the member can use it and I\u2019ll listen a lot more carefully to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e7bdbd861f54064ba8ff9c3f2d25749\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can she explain why, despite the 2019 announcement from the then education Minister, Chris Hipkins, that Ellesmere College in Leeston would have a $30 million rebuild to be completed next year, the school has now been advised that this project has been pushed out to 2028 due to \u201Csignificant shortfall of funds\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e684cba65b8740e7b0e0254544e38c6a\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Ellesmere College is sitting on some land that is unstable. That was unknown about at the time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ec5d1e37cd47ad9b3efca8dda72090\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not. That\u2019s complete rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229036785fa57941c9bcc549704f2b9e0b\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Having said that, this is my understanding of what I have been told. Therefore, the costs have ballooned. If the member would like to put that in writing, a more fulsome answer can come to her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e929652983b4910a3b9bdd56b98c04d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002211d0da553d844f92916c09d1e50d6a0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211d0da553d844f92916c09d1e50d6a0a\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002232cc3556978c4ad6a73f283a5e80dbe1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232cc3556978c4ad6a73f283a5e80dbe1\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were given and taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022332810dd173f41799692ecfd67896c0a\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: How can she stand by her actions when they have resulted in a 10.3\u00A0percent decline in the number of M\u0101ori student leavers with NCEA level 2 under her watch, comparing 2022 to 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022961a370efe6f4d6a8010e5bda539f0c8\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Students sitting NCEA last year faced turbulent and disrupted teaching over the last few years. Globally, we are seeing the impacts of COVID on student achievement. New Zealand\u2019s results are in line with international trends. I would note, though, that after five years in Government, the National Party saw results in line with what we saw in 2022 after Labour\u2019s five years in Government, which also saw students navigate through a global pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c356f875ddd43c18d35c2d764907595\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Ministry of Education, who said, \u201CBetween 2017 and 2022, the proportion of M\u0101ori school leavers with NCEA level 2 or above decreased by 10.3 percentage points. Year-on-year increases occurred between 2012 and 2017, but since then, there have been year-on-year decreases.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229ac5abd8b444c47bfd3132730a3fbcd\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: What I can say is that we are seeing a number of young people who are leaving for other opportunities such as employment, apprenticeships, or travelling overseas. All of these have increased. We are seeing a record number of apprenticeships, and I would also point out that leaving school is not the end of a person\u2019s academic opportunity. A large proportion of young people, including our M\u0101ori leavers, are leaving school before 17 to further their education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e2bc1d618b4597b2438878890dbc6c\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: What would she say to M\u0101ori parents when, under her Government, only 58 percent of their tamariki are leaving school with NCEA level 2, which the OECD says is the minimum qualification young people need for successful labour market participation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b8ddeb9ea2f4c7796460a901bf356c4\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: They might be leaving school with that but, as I\u2019ve already pointed out, we have a record number that are going into apprenticeships. We\u2019re already pointing out that we have these young people who are continuing their education in other ways. They\u2019re also leaving school to go into work because we\u2019ve got high employment levels or we\u2019ve got record numbers that are leaving to go overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a282e870e19d4a95a27ce2d9f23c90e2\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying that she\u2019s accepting of the fact that only 58\u00A0percent of M\u0101ori students are leaving with NCEA level 2 because they\u2019re going into work and they\u2019re going overseas, when the OECD says very clearly that the minimum qualification needed in New Zealand is level 2 for successful labour market participation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022903ee554fa1f48ab998d8ac25181f766\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: What I am going to say is that we want to ensure that when kids are leaving school that they have the knowledge that they need to thrive. We are making certain that the qualification process has minimum literacy and mathematic qualifications, which has never been done before. We are making certain that, from next year, we are bringing in a new mandatory assessment from year 10 to give students, parents, and employers the confidence that school leavers have foundational maths and literacy skills, which is something that that side failed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022802d4ea9964f4270b8c5a3d3453d9047\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022edc3b679027e4818be465be60e915a68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edc3b679027e4818be465be60e915a68\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CGST is a comprehensive tax which makes it very easy to administer and people in the room who\u2019ve been in other countries with more exemptions will know it becomes an absolute [boondiggle] to get through\u201D, and does he support expanding exemptions to GST in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00229e5cab7d8e2e4c2a9983f4ec38da6c68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e5cab7d8e2e4c2a9983f4ec38da6c68\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I do stand by that statement in the context it was made, and with the word \u201Cboondoggle\u201D. In answer to the second part of the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ef3b5bfd624ce3bf63620572fcbde7\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CTo-ma-to\u201D, \u201Cto-mate-oes\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022182e9646c70c4d4ba003b73971e0de3a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Government\u2019s tax policy\u2014well, that\u2019s the thing, isn\u2019t it? The Government\u2019s tax policy for this term has been set out clearly, and we\u2019re not making any changes of that sort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dd545869cdb485a897e4c518deaddba\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the findings of the GST background paper produced by the Tax Working Group in 2018 that exempting items such as food and drink is purely targeted towards achieving distributional goals and has a disproportionately large revenue impact, and does he support expanding exemptions to GST in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022151cfbd1e2964b4196b6f2699f4a86c4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I just said in my answer to the primary question, the Government\u2019s tax policy for this term has been set out clearly and we are not making any changes of that sort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d51e4ecc699c4b04aca84f9ae14778db\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister agree that a boondoggle is a project that is considered a waste of both time and money, yet it is often continued due to extraneous political motivations, and does the Minister agree that providing tax exemptions on goods sold by supermarkets whilst simultaneously seeking to address the high excess profits of those supermarkets would be counterintuitive? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf6b5ca7b19045349fd8ba42ab05a0b9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, I\u2019ve already mentioned a couple of projects that have been called boondoggles that have been successful. Another one, for the member\u2019s edification, was the attempt to land people on the moon, which was called a \u201Cmoondoggle\u201D, and it actually turned out all right in the end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec8a9b169d724348946ea29b8982aaff\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister acknowledge the various court cases which have occurred in countries which do have different rates of GST on different food items\u2014including whether smoothies should be counted as liquefied fruit salads, and if juice cleanses can be considered meal replacements in the UK\u2014and does he think that determining which tax rate applies to individual food items would be a good use of funds in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294ba60006f184178aabdc081df755fd3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said twice now and in my primary answer, the Government\u2019s tax policy for this term has been set out clearly and we are not making any changes of that sort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002247b5919bda7446f5877be6a0013c46e9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002218b2f25c3142461ca2a8bded5c38b79a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218b2f25c3142461ca2a8bded5c38b79a\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: What reports has he seen on the reopening of our borders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002202687a68851f47b993b78331b507a948\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202687a68851f47b993b78331b507a948\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Monday\u2014which is yesterday\u2014marked one year since our border fully reopened following the restrictions imposed due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Since then, we have seen demand to visit New Zealand far outstrip initial expectations, showing that our reconnecting New Zealand strategy has been a huge success. Since the full reopening on 31 July 2022, we\u2019ve approved over 2.1 million people to visit, study, or work in New Zealand. This includes over 1.7 million visitors, over 48,000 international students, more than 75,000 accredited employer work visas being issued, and over 60,000 working holiday visas being issued. This is a real vote of confidence in New Zealand as an attractive destination for workers, students, and tourists, and shows that despite international economic headwinds and higher costs associated with travel post-pandemic, we can be proud of our reopening to the world. In this respect, I acknowledge the work of my predecessors the Hon Michael Wood and the Hon Kris Faafoi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff0502f8f25044bb9b882325b82b65c7\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: How do these figures compare to visitor numbers before the pandemic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022544e3dae7abf4dc6931243201845b160\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Figures from Stats New Zealand show that net migration figures have rebounded to the sorts of volumes we were seeing prior to the pandemic. In addition to this, Immigration New Zealand has just recorded its busiest June ever of incoming visitor visa application volumes, with more than 46,000 visitor visa applications approved. This follows the busiest ever May experienced. The Government is, of course, monitoring volumes to ensure that our small country and labour market can fully absorb those who wish to come here, and deal with community pressures effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022577016ff34524412beac8b49c9ae389d\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: How are we ensuring that we are getting the workers we need into the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbf0ea56b6d343c09dc737b2ac10de42\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: These strong migration figures reflect in part the responsiveness we built into the work visa system. The job check process ensures that accredited employer work visas are only able to be granted if a New Zealander is not able to be found to do a given job. Obviously, during a period of near record low unemployment, this will be an easier threshold to meet. However, when unemployment picks up, we would expect these numbers to drop as more New Zealanders become available for work. These changes have been made in part to ensure we are attracting the highly skilled people we need, and the OECD has recognised our success in this area by naming us the most attractive country in the world for skilled migrants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022628c60a103ec499f88009a9b96e9134c\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: Does Immigration New Zealand have the processing capacity to keep up with strong interest in visiting and working in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268aab6d9d287432a98f3287d43a00430\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I am confident that they do. After a tricky initial period with a new IT system and demand for visas massively outstripping expectations, visa processing figures have now settled and, for the vast majority of applicants, I am confident they will receive a timely decision. The Government will continue to monitor visa processing figures closely to ensure that these high standards are maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271ccb0b51c884ce59bfbfb2172794e86\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002264268e2a84fb4836b4cf84f100e9cef3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264268e2a84fb4836b4cf84f100e9cef3\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Will he commit to continuing and delivering Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving and Auckland light rail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0f06b28490c43fb85000a377df5bc63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0f06b28490c43fb85000a377df5bc63\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Wellington deserves a comprehensive transport network that moves people across the city. As the Prime Minister has said, the problem with Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving is that it hasn\u2019t been moving fast enough. We\u2019re not dumping the programme, but we are in discussions with Wellington City and regional councils as to how the programme can be progressed faster. Regarding Auckland light rail, as I told the member last week, work is ongoing. Final investment decisions on Auckland light rail are yet to be taken, and I\u2019m not expecting them until after the election. We will be saying more regarding our transport priorities for Auckland, Wellington, and the rest of the country in the coming weeks. When we do announce our priorities, they will be properly costed and properly funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232483414cf364a7c9d226864ce1a455d\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister express confidence in Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221923277ba3594442acd23ce4dc8ab960\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but it does need to speed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279ea89469b6940529cd37ac4821731cf\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: After six years in office, what does the Minister mean by \u201Cspeed up\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212c8028f81dc48d69500a216ee273236\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would say adding to the progress that we\u2019ve made across the country. You know, we\u2019ve invested $16 billion in transport initiatives, both on the public transport and the roading front. We\u2019ve also invested heavily in rail. We\u2019ve finished off projects that were started by the last Government but not properly funded. We funded billion-dollar cost overruns for the likes of the City Rail Link in Auckland. We funded shortfalls of underfunding on Transmission Gully. We\u2019ve cleaned up so many messes from the prior Government. We\u2019re determined to show the public of New Zealand that if people are going to make rash promises as to their future roading programme, they should show how they\u2019re going to fund them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248f58c4349d24361902864bb49c3a46f\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister ask users of the current State Highway 1 and Wellington residents if they\u2019d be prepared to pay a toll to get a tunnel built through Mount Victoria quicker than Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving could, and would the Minister welcome private sector financing to fund toll roads, as set out in ACT\u2019s policy to supercharge toll road delivery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d4ad463b9d4071900ebf43cb138748\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of whether roads are built by the private sector through public-private partnerships or funded directly by the public sector, irrespective of which of those two choices is taken, you still have to fund the full cost of the project, and the problem with some of the announcements that we\u2019ve heard this week is that they\u2019re billions of dollars out. In respect of propositions to toll, I find some propositions hard to fathom given that we proposed the tolling of Penlink but the National Party says that they\u2019re going to not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f07f7f954d94de59cb35b94fe64bcb3\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: How many metres of Auckland light rail track have been delivered so far as part of the Government\u2019s $29.2 billion light rail plan, which was promised to be delivered by 2021?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faf0537362b64a0e9105541b744f15a8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, final investment decisions have not been taken on that project, and therefore no money\u2019s been spent on the laying of tracks yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a956341bba458a9ee97a4fbe84aabf\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the Prime Minister\u2019s statement in question time just a few moments ago when he said, \u201CWork is under way on planning for a route, including identifying the preferred route for Auckland light rail \u2026 including identifying the most desirable construction method\u201D, and how many more years are required to plan for this route?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b3003df831540f99aa9b12642c16931\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, and one of the examples of why that\u2019s necessary is that the geology of the area differs. Some parts you could tunnel through and you would encounter lava throws that would put up the cost of the project probably by more than the cost overruns that we\u2019ve seen for the City Rail Link. We\u2019re determined to avoid those sorts of cost overruns by proper planning and investigation in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd0442e89ad040a5afa2930f0bac4c17\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Tourism\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002219a4e15496f54c7ab5474f11eb1d90a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219a4e15496f54c7ab5474f11eb1d90a0\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Tourism: Kia orana, Mr Speaker. What recent reports has he seen regarding New Zealanders\u2019 support for tourism?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00225bf54c3e9b514e0c82c2e74bddbbd22d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bf54c3e9b514e0c82c2e74bddbbd22d\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Last week, I received research conducted by Tourism New Zealand showing that 89 percent of New Zealanders agree that tourism is good for New Zealand. This number shows that Kiwis understand the fundamental role that tourism plays in our country. And this Government has been clear in providing support to our regions, boosting our economy, and ensuring tourism is a key part of our national identity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c3e42da1264df492e5aa49e220530f\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What are New Zealanders\u2019 views on how tourism impacts the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e5b10aa5a648f4a93824d7df7046a4\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Ninety-two percent of New Zealanders agree that tourism has a positive impact on the economy, and they\u2019re right. International visitor spend in May 2023 was up 14 percent from pre-COVID May 2019 levels, and spend from all international visitors totalled $3.2 billion in the March 2023 quarter. It\u2019s fantastic to see that New Zealanders recognise tourism\u2019s positive contribution to our economy as the sector rebuilds from the impacts of COVID-19 and supports New Zealand\u2019s recovery. That\u2019s why the Government has been hard at work developing international ties to continue to bring overseas tourists into New Zealand. We\u2019ve already announced new flight paths between China and New Zealand, and we\u2019ve also announced new technology partnerships that will enable New Zealand to be promoted as a travel destination to a significant consumer base.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d0d4e1e19f846de9bbe2de81f52d1c3\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What are New Zealanders\u2019 views on how tourism impacts regional communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce72a006ddbf4eb2be627f830d45b16a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Fewer New Zealanders now perceive the level of tourism in their community as being too high compared to November 2022, and there is still a high 37 percent of New Zealanders who would like to see more tourism in their communities. Communities recognise that tourism provides jobs and also that it can positively affect social wellbeing in connection with culture. Tourism New Zealand is working hard to attract visitors who want to experience New Zealand in an authentic way that contributes positively to New Zealand\u2019s culture, society, nature, and economy. We continue to support destination planning at a regional level with a recent investment of $5 million to help develop a well-managed, sustainable visitor destination that can adapt and change depending on the region\u2019s needs or opportunities from a social, economic, cultural, and environmental point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae014749c1e4c52833c3cf02aa1b62f\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government addressing some of the concerns expressed by New Zealanders regarding tourism here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a752d3dccc4dafb46bfcdacbc6a68a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Some New Zealanders believe there are negative impacts from tourism, mainly around specific things that affect them in their region, but also the environment. This Government is listening; there\u2019s considerable work at central and local government levels to ensure that the tourism sector contributes both positively and innovatively to all communities. This includes the Tourism Environment Action Plan, which is looking at ways that tourism in Aotearoa New Zealand can protect and restore the climate and environment, making sure tourism is regenerative into our future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ff086c7dd294e169adacae3916bef6c\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002239ba3ff70b8e458e81b3f864883e504d\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9ea69c77a1845f8a679fe250dd2b656\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9ea69c77a1845f8a679fe250dd2b656\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill, the Natural and Built Environment Bill, and the Spatial Planning Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a98d684a355f46529e3431e63e23e422\u0022\u003EEstimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227179de26ed414cd0a08312aed9bc526d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd47bfd111d249c18feb29d7952df82b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd47bfd111d249c18feb29d7952df82b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is in committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill, for further consideration of the Natural and Built Environment Bill, and for consideration of the Spatial Planning Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe Standing Orders provide for 11 hours of debate on the Estimates. The Business Committee has determined to organise the debate by portfolio, so there will be no sector-specific debates. All Votes are available for debate, but only specific Ministers will be available each day to speak to the indicated portfolios only. The Government has indicated that the Minister of Immigration, the Minister of Education, the Minister of Housing, and the Minister of Health will be available today. Each debate will be led by a call from the chairperson or member of the committee that considered the Estimates most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThis debate expires after 11 hours, at which point questions will be put that the Votes stand part of the Schedules and on the provisions of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. The time for the debate has been allocated to parties on a proportional basis, and may be taken as parties see fit during the debate. New Zealand Labour has five hours and 43 minutes, New Zealand National has three hours and nine minutes, ACT New Zealand has 55 minutes, the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has 50 minutes, Te Paati M\u0101ori has 11 minutes, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere has six minutes, and the Hon Meka Whaitiri has six minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe Estimates debate should be relevant to the Government\u2019s current spending plans as contained in the Estimates of Appropriations. A compendium of the reports of select committees on the Votes is available on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriation for 2023/24 stand part of the Schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMembers, we start with the Minister of Immigration. The Minister is available for the next hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7952c925d534eef9c864fd10147e797\u0022\u003EImmigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022269f320ff6c849f09b13c76f736c2498\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022269f320ff6c849f09b13c76f736c2498\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Chairperson of the Education and Workforce Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a privilege to take the first call as chair of the Education and Workforce Committee to look at the Estimates in relation to Immigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe Education and Workforce Committee did examine the Estimates in relation to Immigration at a hearing with the Minister of Immigration, and we have compiled a report as part of our Estimates for Vote Labour Market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe Vote and the Estimates for Immigration are quite considerable, although a smaller percentage of the overall Vote. I think it\u2019s about $542.5 million that is estimated for spending in relation to the Immigration space. This is actually a decrease from the appropriations from the previous 2022/23 year, when there was a slightly higher amount that was estimated to spend. So that\u2019s an interesting observation for members to note.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe did cover a number of areas during our examination of the Estimates. The main areas that we looked at were assessment and processing services, which were about 68.9\u00A0percent of the appropriations; integrity and security of New Zealand\u2019s immigration systems; settlement and integration of refugees and other migrants; services for the attraction of migrants; and regulation of immigration advisers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, members will be aware that these are significant Estimates for Immigration, but additionally, the Immigration portfolio is also bolstered by fees and levies which are charged on visa applications. This was a slightly different type of revenue that came in during the COVID-19 process, but we were advised during the Estimates in this area that there was a slight deficit at the end of June 2023, but there is an expected surplus of just under $19 million at 30 June 2024. We were also informed that we expect to see these counts trend towards zero, which is in line with the Auditor-General\u2019s guidelines on best practice in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EDuring our Estimates hearing, we covered a number of important matters that were significant to members of the committee within these Estimates, and a number of those were part of the pathways to residence that could allow migrants to stay in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe discussed a number of those important pathways. The first one is one that is active from October 2023, and that was the skilled migrant category pathway. This has been changed recently, in June 2023, and those announcements were made by the Minister of Immigration, and they include having an acceptable job offer and six points, and there\u2019s details in the reports as to how that can be accrued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAdditionally, we looked at the Green List pathway. This is a pathway which will open on 29\u00A0September 2023, and that\u2019s a list of in-demand jobs that it\u2019s obviously important that we get people to come and perform in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAdditionally, we looked at the care workforce and transport sector agreements pathway. Again, this is another pathway which is looking to have applications open on 29 September 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe also had a look at amnesty for overstayers. This is an issue that was raised by members of the committee, and the Minister at the time, the Hon Michael Wood, stated that he considered the issue was \u201Cimportant\u201D and said he was working towards reaching a decision \u201Cas soon as possible\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe also looked at Pacific Island nations; obviously, a very important area for immigration in New Zealand\u2014and, historically, with that special relationship. The Minister said the Government was paying \u201Cspecial attention\u201D to the relationship with the Pacific Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnother matter which I thought would be important to highlight, given the recent weather events, was the Immigration response to the severe weather that we have had recently. So we did ask the Minister during our Estimates hearing about how the Immigration system was helping those areas recover, and the Minister said that the Government had recognised the high labour needs within the areas affected by cyclones and so had introduced the cyclone Recovery Visa, which allowed employers to sponsor people to come into those areas and to assist with recovery. We understand 1,300 applications for this visa were received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI look forward to hearing the questions from other members in relation to the Immigration Estimates\u2014obviously, a really important part of our \u201Cbuilding back better\u201D for New Zealand\u2014and I look forward to hearing the Minister\u2019s responses to those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002276258db8d31f4f628fe93ac9aedd6baa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276258db8d31f4f628fe93ac9aedd6baa\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am keen to explore the Minister\u2019s views around the Accredited Employer Work Visa and the system that we\u2019ve got at the moment and how well it\u2019s working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EMy first question is that, during this briefing process, our select committee learnt from immigration officials that only 25 percent of businesses seeking accreditation and then being accredited were going to be checked by a team working inside Immigration New Zealand. My first question is: does the Minister think that only 25 percent of businesses being checked for accreditation is acceptable? Does he think that that might lead to businesses exploiting the system and exploiting migrants? The reason that I ask that question is that we have seen, in recent times, an explosion of exploited migrants in New Zealand. In fact, there was a news item saying that there had been a sixfold increase in the number of people being exploited. Given this Government\u2019s commitment to try and stamp out exploitation, it seemed that the opposite is happening when you get people like Anu Kaloti from the Migrant Workers Association saying that she has been inundated with migrants on both visitor and work visas coming to her because they had been exploited, scammed, and were desperate for help. So the question comes back to the system that we run in accrediting businesses, which was supposed to have the intention of stamping out migrant exploitation. But, when only 25 percent of those businesses are going to be checked, according to officials at the Education and Workforce Committee, that is potentially problematic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe second question is: what number have been checked so far? Immigration said 25\u00A0percent. That\u2019s their aim. Can I ask the Minister: how many have been checked so far? The reason that\u2019s important is we know that businesses were supposed to ask for reaccreditation after a year; that\u2019s been pushed out for another year, so now we have a 24-month period of businesses potentially not being checked and not having to reaccredit themselves, leaving a much wider scope for them to potentially work in cahoots with overseas operators to scam people into the country. The reports that we\u2019re hearing, because of this lack of oversight, are that migrants overseas are paying upwards of $15,000\u2014I\u2019ve heard up to $40,000\u2014for a \u201Cjob token\u201D, because that\u2019s what they believe they have to do, then coming into New Zealand, finding that the job doesn\u2019t exist, finding themselves in a pretty desperate situation, then working under the table or going on to a migrant exploitation visa, and then being exploited on that visa, which we found in a meeting last week. Many who were on migrant exploitation visas were actually working under the table. So the question is: is that a robust process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe reason, again, I ask is because I met with 18 Chinese migrants last week who were in this very difficult situation, who had been scammed and are now being exploited. Every single one of the immigration documents they gave me with the company name that they were supposed to work for. I looked up; none of them, not a single one, had a website, had contact details that I could find online, or anything about their business other than being registered with the Companies Office. That\u2019s all that existed online. I couldn\u2019t find out anything about those businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo my third question is: does the Minister find it acceptable that companies are being accredited in a number of days\u2014without a website, without any contact details, without any company history, and without having to give any documentation to Immigration New Zealand\u2014and then sitting there for two years without having to be reaccredited? And very unlikely will it be that they get checked by Immigration New Zealand, given that only 15 percent are being checked for accreditation by the Accredited Employer Risk Management and Review team. Then the follow-up question is: does the Minister believe that these holes in our system are leading to an explosion of migrants who are paying many, many thousands of dollars for visas to then be scammed and find themselves being exploited in this country\u2014the very thing that this Government says they want to stamp out? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00224158b996835648f49458681793e130ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224158b996835648f49458681793e130ac\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, thank you, and I thank the member for her question. I thank her for her recent interest in migrant exploitation, because it differs markedly from what she said just earlier this year in an interview with Newshub, when she said that \u201CWe need a [work] visa process that is streamlined, that cuts all the bureaucratic tape and the cost out.\u201D So it\u2019s good that that member has radically changed her position to accept now that, if we are to have good immigration processes and eliminate, or do our best to, eliminate migrant exploitation, what she preaches to the media and, for example, to outfits like The Platform, they\u2019re actually not going to be good for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the rules around the Accredited Employer Work Visa are that, first of all, the employer has to be accredited. They have to supply information to Immigration New Zealand. They have to demonstrate that they are in business and have been in business for at least a year. They have to provide information. The benefit of that is that, in a way that we didn\u2019t have before, we now actually have source information to go to in relation to employers about whom complaints are made of migrant exploitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe regime in place at the moment is that a total of 15 percent of accredited employers are subject to various forms of audit or checking. It differs depending on the sector. So 100 percent of franchisees are examined or audited in some form or another in the court in a single year, and 30 percent of high-volume employers of migrants are also checked on each year, and then to make up the full 15 percent of all accredited employer visas, there\u2019s a different cycle for others. That is a level of auditing and checking that we never had before; we were reliant almost entirely on a complaints process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EEven in spite of that, the other thing we\u2019ve done is to radically improve and make more accessible the complaints process. And that explains, in the media report last night, which was factually incorrect in a number of respects but factually correct in others\u2014but that\u2019s Newshub these days, I guess. But it did note that, for example, in the 2021-2022 year slightly over 900 complaints had been made. The member in her dissertation just now talked to a sixfold increase in migrants being exploited. That\u2019s not correct. It\u2019s a significant increase in the number of complaints being laid and it\u2019s not sixfold. And then in the 2022-23 year, again, just over 900 complaints being made. Of those, roughly half are processed through a website now that wasn\u2019t in existence two years ago. Because in putting together a revamped immigration system and knowing (a) we need labour from overseas and we want to support employers who need labour from overseas, but (b) we want to do what we can to mitigate the risk of migrant exploitation, we put in place that mechanism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, for those who do suffer exploitation in work, we have a number of other visas they can very quickly move on to, which Newshub failed to report last night\u2014in fact, erroneously reported last night. They can move on to the migrant exploitation protection visa or, if they are dismissed, particularly under the 90-day rule, which some have been, they can go instantly onto the dismissed worker visa. That gives workers in those situations an extra few months with the support of Government agencies to secure new work and it doesn\u2019t have to be in the original sector that they were employed into. So those measures are in place, and that is starting to make a big difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn terms of their numbers, 516 post-accreditation checks of employers have taken place. There\u2019s just under 1,500 currently in progress. This is across a total of 27,000 accredited employers and that is the way that the system works. But I\u2019m confident that the way the system is set up\u2014it\u2019s in its second year\u2014the processes are being tested and the ability for Immigration New Zealand to respond to complaints of exploitation is now better and more effective. And we\u2019re providing support to those who, unfortunately, find themselves a victim of that type of approach from rogue employers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u002224e31f9addc643eeb18fb8c5b14070fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224e31f9addc643eeb18fb8c5b14070fa\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. On that same vein regarding migrant exploitation and the Accredited Employer Work Visa, I\u2019d just like to get the Minister\u2019s reaction in response to a question I made in June 2021. I asked the Hon Kris Faafoi: how can he be certain that the new scheme will not increase migrant exploitation\u2014over two years ago\u2014and the response was, from the previous previous Minister, \u201CBecause the new system will prevent migrant exploitation happening.\u201D So, in light of that, does he think now, with two years of hindsight, the system has worked as intended given the media reports and the increases in migrant exploitation, and, if not, will he consider removing wage rules that drive inflation and wage recycling and also the tying of visas to employers, which ACT at the time two years ago called to be dropped?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6b41c0a859b487a810b818837615152\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6b41c0a859b487a810b818837615152\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E In that question, that member has exposed ACT\u2019s core philosophy, which is that they don\u2019t actually care about exploitation; they want labour as cheaply as possible. The system we have in place is to ensure a level of pay for overseas workers that creates an incentive for New Zealand employers to make sure that they have exhausted the domestic market for that labour and ensures that workers who come from overseas can be sure of an income that allows them to live with some sort of dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo, going back to the question that the member posed more than two years ago about how certain the Minister at the time could be that there won\u2019t be an increase in exploitation, I think, even if the Minister didn\u2019t state it at the time, what was understood is we expected that reported migrant exploitation at that time was hugely understated. There was a huge under-reporting of migrant exploitation because a lot of migrant workers, particularly when English is a second language, find it difficult to find a place to go and raise a complaint. They are somewhat diffident or they lack the confidence to do so or they are simply fearful about the consequences. That\u2019s why part of the new regime is a system that makes it easier to make complaints about exploitation\u2014that not only makes it easier to make complaints but has a kind of safe harbour for those workers to go to, with those two other visas that can apply that they can be put on to very swiftly so that they can then, with support, get under way the process of finding alternative employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I think, to respond to the member, what we are seeing now is reported levels of migrant exploitation that are, in fact, what they always were; it is just now more transparent because of the system that we\u2019ve put in place, and we now have more effective ways of dealing with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00221c595820671b40e7a85affff1e2c21dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c595820671b40e7a85affff1e2c21dc\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would remind the Minister that it is possible to have a streamlined system with a lack of bureaucracy and red tape and still reduce migrant exploitation. Despite what he says, we can have the best of both worlds. In fact, migrant exploitation prior to the Accredited Employer Work Visa (AEWV), as most people in the industry and the sector agree, if you\u2019d listen to them, is far worse now than it has ever been. But my question to the Minister is\u2014he made the claim that businesses who are applying to be accredited must supply information. They must provide information that they have been in business for a year and have good financials. People inside Immigration New Zealand have been stating very clearly that of the people that they have been checking\u2014this is the Accredited Employer Risk Management and Review (AERMR) team, which I\u2019m sure the Minister\u2019s aware of, that have done these 516 post-accreditation checks out of 27,000. They have found that most of them have not provided any details, have not provided financials, have not provided any evidence that they have been working for 12 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo while the Minister says it should happen, the point is that because Immigration New Zealand has been under so much pressure to get things done so quickly, they have not been following those rules\u2014if they are rules. I know, and the Minister may know well, that most of these businesses are getting their accreditation through in just a number of days, which looks good for the Government, but, in fact, when you delve down into it, they are not providing the information that they\u2019re supposed to. And now, for two years they have licence to bring in migrants at the cost for the migrant of tens of thousands of dollars. When they arrive here, they say, \u201CI\u2019m sorry; there\u2019s no job for you.\u201D, or employ them for a week or two and then say, \u201CYour job is over.\u201D, and then bring in more migrants. Has the Minister been contacted by any immigration lawyers from big immigration law firms in the last few weeks who have made these claims and advised him of exactly this, and has he responded to them? So that\u2019s a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe other question is: is he aware of the fact that the AERMR team are now finding that most of the businesses that they are checking have not provided that information at all? And is he concerned that the 99 percent of businesses who have not been checked at all yet may be in this very same boat\u2014or many of them may be\u2014where they have not provided any financial information or any documentation, and they\u2019re now given a licence for two years before they have to be reaccredited to bring in migrants, make a whole lot of money, dismiss them, and then bring in new migrants? It just goes round and round and round\u2014tens of thousands of dollars for each migrant, like I say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe second question to the Minister is around the new visas that have been set up to help migrant exploitation. So the migrant exploitation visa, which many migrants who I spoke to are on\u2014and they say to me that the problem with that visa is they can\u2019t find work. They are forced to work under the table. They are, effectively, being exploited on an exploitation visa, and then it is very difficult for them, in the current circumstances\u2014and there are thousands of these people in the country who have been bought in and been exploited\u2014to find a job for $29.66, the median wage which they\u2019re required to do to get themselves back on an AEWV visa. Many of these migrants I spoke to are having their migrant exploitation visas run out in the next month or two. What is going to happen to them, Mr Little? Because they have spent and have huge debts overseas for tens of thousands of dollars. Migrants from all over the world have these huge debts. They\u2019re trapped here. They\u2019re on a migrant exploitation visa. They can\u2019t get themselves onto an AEWV because no one will employ them at $29.66, or they were brought in with no skills anyway, so they\u2019ve got nothing to do. They are going to become illegal, and then they\u2019re going to be ripe for even more exploitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThey are in very, very dire circumstances. The Minister needs to take this seriously. It\u2019s been reported every single day. It is worse than we have ever seen. All of the big law firms, all of the immigration agents, Anu Kaloti, the whole of the Opposition know that this is as bad as it has ever been\u2014much, much worse. The Minister just doesn\u2019t seem to be understanding the problem and taking it seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00222af7d8bf0f4a42959e42f11b127438bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222af7d8bf0f4a42959e42f11b127438bd\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E What I struggle to take seriously is that member Erica Stanford\u2019s hyperbole and exaggeration, and she has a strong track record of saying things that just turn out not to be factually correct. She did it last week, and she\u2019s doing again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis Government takes very seriously the need for an immigration policy that achieves a number of critical objectives. One is to meet the labour market gaps that we have. A year ago, that member was haranguing the Government for not moving fast enough to get more workers in the country to fill the gaps; indeed, her colleagues were doing the same. They did not care. They did not care about processes that were about checking and auditing, and her claims about wanting streamlined processes with no bureaucracy are just cant\u2014that is all they are. It is meaningless waffle from people who do not understand and do not care about exploited workers. So we focus on systems that give us the best chance of giving us not only good information but the processes to respond effectively to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe other thing that member is doing is conflating two things. She\u2019s conflating the exploitative and horrific behaviour of the dreadful, parasitic people offshore who entice tens of thousands of dollars out of people to get work in New Zealand with what happens in New Zealand. We don\u2019t get to control what happens offshore with those exploitative, parasitic agents who are doing that sort of thing. Now, you know, we could work with good information and work through authorities here to work with countermand authorities in other countries, but we don\u2019t get to regulate what happens there. What we do is we regulate what happens here, and what we do for those who do suffer the ignominy and the horror of exploitative behaviour from employers here is have means to respond, including, for those accredited employers who behave in that way, removing their accreditation and striking them off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member, again, comes back to \u201CWe must have streamlined processes, but not cause any inconvenience to employers.\u201D So we have an auditing process because, out of 27,000 accredited employers, not every employer is exploitative. There are some pretty darned good employers who follow the system and follow the rules, including public sector employers and plenty of private sector employers too. The biggest complaint I get\u2014and I heard a very wealthy immigration consultant on Newstalk ZB last week saying, \u201CWhat is the matter? Doesn\u2019t the Government want migrant workers to come here?\u201D, because he also was very ignorant about what\u2019s happening too, but Newstalk ZB doesn\u2019t care about that, necessarily. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re dealing with a whole bunch of people making wild, extravagant claims about the system when, actually, the system is responding. We have a system that gathers complaints, and it is gathering those complaints. We have a number of Immigration New Zealand personnel whose job is to make sure that accredited employers comply with the rules, that those who don\u2019t have their accreditation taken off them, and that those who are the victims of that exploitation get visas to stay in the country and they\u2019re assisted to get other work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo these big, powerful lawyers that the member talks about\u2014I\u2019ve heard what they\u2019ve been saying publicly. But it\u2019s not what she\u2019s saying, and I\u2019m confident that the teams that we have in place in Immigration New Zealand, not just to respond to complaints, but to do the checking of accredited employers are doing that work and doing it effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222a3ccaafae294ff2a176eb467e4eb38d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a3ccaafae294ff2a176eb467e4eb38d\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, I\u2019d like to turn my attention to the issue of an amnesty for overstayers, which the chair of the Education and Workforce Committee talked about. The previous Minister of Immigration, when we were quizzing him about this, talked about having news soon. So I wanted to ask: when are we expecting news around whether the Government will do an amnesty for overstayers? Is the Minister expecting to announce something before the election? And if the Government is actively considering an amnesty for overstayers, whether any consideration has been given to pausing deportations of overstayers who do not pose a risk to public safety, or a national security risk? Otherwise we risk announcing an amnesty, with a whole cohort of overstayers who then would have been deported with no ability to access it. So I\u2019m hoping for some answers into when we are expecting news, whether it\u2019s before the election, and then any other considerations that have been given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EOn the issue of exploitation, I wanted to ask about the Minister\u2019s confidence around increasing the numbers of completed investigations for migrant exploitation. We\u2019ve seen a huge number of increase, and yet over the years the completed number of investigations per year has actually stayed the same, meaning that, actually, as a proportion of the cases that are now being reported, we\u2019re having less and less investigations being completed. So what confidence can the Minister give migrants and members of the public that there will be greater capacity to complete investigations of migrant exploitation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00226f626e3b209d4e5bad92a39589ad75ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f626e3b209d4e5bad92a39589ad75ed\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman, and thank you to that member for those questions. Firstly, on the point about an amnesty for overstayers\u2014I note that member and his party have raised that\u2014I can say that it is a question that is under active consideration by the Government. I can also say it\u2019s highly unlikely that there will be a decision or any action before the election. I do just want to make this point about amnesties\u2014and the reason why there is a very careful balancing exercise required is that thousands of people come to New Zealand every year under the immigration system that we\u2019ve got, they come under the rules that we\u2019ve got, and they adhere to those rules. There are some who come here, they come under the system, and, for a range of reasons, often quite innocent, they find themselves outside of those rules. We have to make sure that the system that we\u2019ve got and the system rules that we\u2019ve got have integrity. The reason for that is that we are a small country, and the reality is that we cannot absorb everybody who would like to come here and stay here. So we have to have a set of rules, we have to manage it, and we have to make sure everybody adheres to those rules. So when we think about an amnesty, we have to think about the signal that we\u2019re giving to people if they think, \u201COh, gee, this is a Government that just routinely gives amnesties; if we stick around long enough, we\u2019ll be OK.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo we take some time and consider very carefully issues of immigration amnesties for those who find themselves irregular or irregularised because of either the passage of time or the expiry of their visa and the fact that they haven\u2019t sorted that out, or, as in some cases too, particularly if they\u2019re children of those who have come here under visas originally, visas have expired, the family is still here, and that person who was a child at the time they came here, they\u2019ve done nothing wrong, they\u2019ve lived their life, they\u2019ve relied on their parents and caregivers to comply with the rules but haven\u2019t necessarily done so. So we have to think carefully about all those sorts of things. We don\u2019t like the fact that there are some in this situation where they have the sword of Damocles hanging over them, there\u2019s uncertainty about their immigration status, and we think very carefully about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to the threat of deportations, I think I can assure the member that the advice I\u2019ve had from immigration officials is that they do think very carefully about enforcement in those circumstances and think very carefully about the justice of the particular case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo, on the issue of an amnesty, as I say, it is under active consideration, but don\u2019t expect anything before the general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOn the issue of exploitation and completed investigations, I repeat\u2014sorry, the figure I gave before was post-accreditation checks\u2014the number of completed investigations down to the end of the most recent financial year, so 30 June 2023, was 145 completed immigration investigation on exploitation. That compares with 93 the previous financial year, 71 the previous financial year, and then much smaller numbers for the kind of two years of COVID. But those numbers are getting up. We now have about 300 people in Immigration New Zealand responsible for the checking and investigations, so I\u2019m confident that we have resourced that in a way that means that we can give it our best in terms of investigating migrant exploitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022042fad4dc4bd485eb37df942e620d8f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022042fad4dc4bd485eb37df942e620d8f8\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like some clarity on the topic of the Active Investor Plus Visa. With regards to the weighting of funds, because, as I\u2019m sure the Minister is well aware, one of the purposes of this is to try and get direct investment which weights $1 to $3. So in theory, we could have a\u2014I imagine ideally the Government would want a lot of $5 million applications that New Zealand Trade and Enterprise (NZTE) considers good investments. The problem with that is that based on the figure that I received in an oral question last week, the average amount is $15 million per application so it would seem\u2014unless that\u2019s incorrect or slightly misleading\u2014that every application is not being weighted, so they are not direct investments, not managed funds. So I\u2019d just like to clarify that with the Minister to determine if that is indeed how the system is going, because if it is, then it sounds like it\u2019s not working very well at all. The follow-up to that is that I would ask why NZTE seemed so ill-prepared for their significant role in this visa given that their advisory panel didn\u2019t meet until February 2023 to decide what an acceptable investment was, which was five months after the visa was actually launched. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00226a8a0ccc70864370a6c0b60d5b7dc473\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a8a0ccc70864370a6c0b60d5b7dc473\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, I thank the member for that question. I wasn\u2019t around for his question last week, so I\u2019m not quite sure the particular content of either the question or the answer given. What I can say is that of the 31 applications received since applications opened since August last year, three are fully and finally approved and 14 have been approved in principle. As the member acknowledges, there is a weighting, so depending on the nature of the investment, the title of the visa is \u201CActive Investor\u201D, so the aim is to get investments that generate business activity that could be\u2014as opposed to putting money in a bank account and generating interest, which tends to benefit probably more people offshore than they do here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt could be the person, the visa holder taking their money and setting up or purchasing a business and actively running it, and using their entrepreneurial skills and management skills to generate wealth and activity locally. That\u2019s actually what we would like most. Or, it could be those who might be a passive investor of a business that is employing and generating activity, and the weightings are given accordingly. I\u2019d have to check the data that underpinned the answer to the member\u2019s question last week to see whether that average of $15 million is the weighted average of investments, or the actual dollar value of investments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAs the member knows, the aim is to get investments of value for the purposes of the policy\u2014not the dollar investment, but valued for the purposes of the policy of $15\u00A0million. On the on the grounds that I\u2019ve just specified. So a $5 million investment that the visa holder actively manages themselves, and employs people, and what have you, will be valued at $15 million for the purposes of the application. Whereas the passive investor would require $15 million to get there. So that may not directly answer the member\u2019s question, but I hope that it helps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef0fcf0f2aa54f939e6e1cc9a4dd53d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef0fcf0f2aa54f939e6e1cc9a4dd53d4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Erica Stanford. Can I just invite the member\u2014I noticed when she sat down last time there were a number of questions and comments. If she\u2014and other members, as well\u2014wanted to have a more interactive with the Minister then I\u2019ll be able to allocate questions accordingly. But the members can use their time how they like; it is a timed debate. That\u2019s just a piece of advice from the Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002266cf3444fec6420e947bd16c99d854d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266cf3444fec6420e947bd16c99d854d3\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. A couple of quick questions: can I ask the Minister in the chair, with the post-accreditation checks, how many accreditations have been taken away\u2014removed? Of the 516 that have been checked\u2014out of 27,000\u2014how many have been removed? He mentioned that they could be removed, how many have been removed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EMy second question is: are all employers who are applying for accreditation providing documentation? Given that the Accredited Employer Risk Management and Review (AERMR) team is finding that many of them haven\u2019t, what is his expectation? And if his expectation is that not all employers are providing the documentation, i.e., the 12 months of operation or the financial stability, what percentage are providing that information, according to some of the post-accreditation checks that have been done? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EMy third question is around those agents overseas, and the question is: is he aware that they are working in cahoots with employers here, because of this system that allows companies to be accredited with very little checks and jobs that are being advertised for no skill, no qualification, and therefore nothing to verify at Immigration New Zealand when the migrant applies for their visa? So the whole reason for the explosion in offshore agents acting in a nefarious way is because of this system that allows them to do that; when there are very little checks going on and those what I call \u201Czero-zero contracts\u201D\u2014no skills, no qualification\u2014job ads being done. Is he aware of that? And what plans has he got to work in the Accredited Employer Work Visa system to try and stamp that out? Is it around checking more businesses who are applying, or stamping down on jobs that require no skill, no qualification, or doing more checks and more verifications of migrants when they apply for their visa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225304f4338fef49f996cb5fb4c83b77bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225304f4338fef49f996cb5fb4c83b77bd\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just on the issue of exploitation, I guess I wanted to check whether the Minister agrees that tying work visas to a single employer is a contributing factor to exploitation and, if so, whether any work around this practice is under way or considered in the future as part of preventing exploitation, as well? I wanted to also ask about the parent category visa and particularly with the processing times for that visa specifically, and what are the Minister\u2019s goals for the number of parent visas that are going to be processed in this coming year? Particularly for those people that have been waiting for a substantial amount of time, who at the time of application their parents would have been in good health but by the time the visa is finally now being considered and they have to sit medical checks then their health may have changed, whether any consideration\u2019s being done around making sure that those delays don\u2019t then contribute to creating additional barriers for, you know, parents who through no fault of their own had to wait several years to have that visa being pulled up? So\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00229024789ebc2349b2bfc4ac401b2f3eac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229024789ebc2349b2bfc4ac401b2f3eac\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. To Erica Stanford\u2019s questions about post-accreditation checks. First of all, how many have been removed: I don\u2019t have that number and officials haven\u2019t been able to provide it to me. I know that a small number have been removed because I have seen some periodic reporting of accreditation having been removed from a small number of employers. The second question is, are all employers providing the documentation? They have to provide information, make declarations, and provide information to Immigration New Zealand in order to be accredited, and so the relevant information in order to be accredited is being provided. And the third question which relates to the relationship between employers and\u2014I think the question relates really to rogue employers here and the relationship with dodgy agents overseas. It is not a requirement for employers seeking accreditation here to disclose their relationships with either agents or other nefarious operators offshore. And that would be a step too far, I would have thought. But if as a consequence of regular conduct it becomes clear that an employer here has relationships with people offshore who are aiding and abetting the exploitation of people here, then the employer here will be in the gun. So that is the check and balance on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to the questions from Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, first of all the question about time: the accredited employer visa to the employer. The Accredited Employer Work Visa was a process to allow employers here to employ from offshore. So they get accredited, they get the approval to be an employer who can employ from overseas, or least to employ a visa holder. The role or roles into which the employer wants to employ those workers is checked off as being one for which the employer has failed to\u2014after reasonable efforts\u2014get a New Zealander to occupy, and then the employer is entitled to recruit offshore and Immigration New Zealand then provides that worker with a visa to pick up that job. It would defeat the purpose of the exercise\u2014which is an immigration system tailored to meet labour market needs\u2014for the visa not to relate to the particular employer who\u2019s gone through the effort of getting accredited and getting the job checked out and recruiting the worker. So we don\u2019t intend to change that aspect of the scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut the safeguard against exploitation is that if something does go wrong\u2014if the worker is dismissed, then they can go on to a dismissed worker visa. If they are the victim of migrant exploitation, they can go on to a migrant exploitation protection visa. Moving to those visas can happen reasonably swiftly and so they are afforded that level of protection. So we don\u2019t intend to change that. In relation to parent visas, the member will know that there is a cap on those\u20142,500 of those parent visas per year. So the process at the moment is taking some months to process those. But they are oversubscribed\u2014that is the reality. I\u2019ve just been given some information about the time, so as of 24 July this year, so just slightly more than one week ago, there had been just over 1,400 invitations to apply for those visas as a result of applications made onshore, and that started in November last year. Of those, 968 applications have been submitted and 107 have been decided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s still some in train to get decided, but we know that that is an area of great stress for many migrant families here who want parents protected to come here. We\u2019ll work within the cap, we have the processing under way, and we\u2019re doing the best we can to meet those families\u2019 needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022922f07f8978245a9b33707f229d01285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022922f07f8978245a9b33707f229d01285\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019ve taken your advice, Mr Chair; I\u2019ve got a number of quick questions, but I\u2019ll do one at a time and seek the Minister\u2019s response. The first question is around his previous answer to my question when he mentioned that it is his expectation that all employers are providing information or declarations, and that potentially is where the nub of the issue is. Is it the Minister\u2019s understanding that businesses, when they apply for accreditation, are providing actual documentation to prove that they have been in operation for a year and have good financials, or is it his understanding that all they have to do is to sign a declaration to say that, yes, they have been operating for 12 months, and, yes, they are financially stable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2263ab64477405bbfc6da6d6a41f228\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2263ab64477405bbfc6da6d6a41f228\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E The advice I\u2019ve had is that the employers have to provide a declaration in relation to the standards that they have to meet, which includes employment standards, and about their business. So if they do that, that is then the basis on which any subsequent check or audit is taken. I remind the committee that, for franchisees, 100 percent of franchisee businesses who are accredited employers are checked each year; 30 percent of high-volume employers of migrant workers are checked each year; across the total cohort of 20,000 accredited employers, 15 percent are checked. If any of those employers have made declarations that turn out to be incorrect, then there are penalties on that employer. So it is not in their interests to be misleading Immigration New Zealand. Where the cases of gross exploitation have been discovered, to date, accreditation has been removed, and enforcement action is in train for those particular employers. That is the system as we have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7f32edcdcdf4b78bc7ad3b5cfffe0d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7f32edcdcdf4b78bc7ad3b5cfffe0d1\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is a much better way of operating; thank you for your advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI guess, my next question after that is\u2014so what we understand now is that businesses don\u2019t actually have to show any evidence by just signing a declaration. So this is a very high-trust model, Minister, where the businesses just have to sign to say, \u201CYep. I\u2019m good. I\u2019ve been operating for a year and I\u2019m financially viable.\u201D, and then they will be picked up, as I understand it, in a post-accreditation check of which we\u2019ve only done 560 in the first year, out of 27,000. So you can see, I think, Minister, where we\u2019re coming from, in that if you are a business who wants to work in cahoots with an overseas agent to make tens of thousands\u2014in fact, hundreds of thousands\u2014of dollars by exploiting migrants, bringing them into the country, pretending you have a job for them, and then letting them go and get more in, your chance of getting picked up is slim, given that you haven\u2019t had to have provided any actual documentation to Immigration New Zealand to check, you\u2019ve just signed a declaration, then only at the moment\u2014what are we on one-point-something percent; 1.9 percent of businesses have been checked in a year, and we know that they don\u2019t have to apply for accreditation again for another year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThat gives a business who would like to take part in this pretty awful behaviour two years to run, at which point they can disestablish their business, re-establish as something else, and carry on. Can the Minister understand how this system has created a huge hole in our border for those people who wish to exploit migrants, and that\u2019s exactly why it\u2019s happening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca246301424143c5809a310dc7685363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca246301424143c5809a310dc7685363\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I reiterate the points that I have already made. Of the 27,000 employers who have been accredited, they make their declarations\u2014they don\u2019t just make their declarations; they have to go through other processes too in order to achieve accreditation. So they also have to demonstrate that they have attempted to employ New Zealanders in the role, and if they\u2019re able to demonstrate that they\u2019ve gone through that process and cannot employ anybody, they then have to recruit an overseas worker on the basis of the relevant wage, which is higher than the minimum wage\u2014the median wage, usually; or with sector agreements, that can be slightly adjusted. But that\u2019s the basis in which that employment takes place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI just remind the committee and, indeed, that member, of her own words only a year ago, criticising the Government for not moving fast enough to fill the labour market gaps that we demonstrably had, following the opening of the borders, and the winding down of the impact of the pandemic. We had a labour market that was in desperate need of many workers, but we needed to have an immigration system that had enough checks and balances and safeguards to allow New Zealand employers to employ, to fill the gaps, to meet the needs, to get output going and productivity going, but also allow good, effective enforcement action. We then further assisted, of course, by the passage of the worker protection legislation just recently, which gives Immigration New Zealand more power to get information from employers, to investigate allegations of migrant exploitation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the system as a whole was set up on the basis that most employers\u2014most employers\u2014try to do the right thing, and I say that as a former union official! Most employers try to do the right thing. There are rogue employers. We\u2019ve always had rogue employers; we had them 10 years ago. I remember the heaviest prosecutions that took place\u2014not many of them, unfortunately\u2014prosecutions of hideous conduct that took place, where workers had their passports removed from them, where they were required to sleep overnight in the place where they worked, working seven days a week, and we had a very haphazard enforcement system. The system that we\u2019ve set up now, in terms of collecting information, getting information about the employers, knowing where those workers are going, and a system for those workers to make complaints, as evidenced by the increase in complaints\u2014nearly half of all complaints now come through a channel that was not in place two years ago. So it tells you that migrant exploitation was real before, it\u2019s real now, you started to get a feel for the real value of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut that is the nature of Labour Governments, because we don\u2019t seek to sweep things under the carpet; we actually want to know what\u2019s going on and we set up systems to make sure we know what\u2019s going on. That is the difference between members in the National Party, who shout and scream a lot but don\u2019t actually mean it\u2014because they want streamlined processes with no bureaucracy for employers, but then they turn up here, complaining about migrant exploitation. They want to have it both ways. We want a system that has integrity. We want to have a system that generates the information about what\u2019s actually happening, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re getting and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing. That\u2019s why we now have 300 people dedicated to dealing with claims and allegations of breaches of accredited employer rules or migrant exploitation, and the system is working as it is intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022383ae80edbf94dcdad839d4e500215c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022383ae80edbf94dcdad839d4e500215c0\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister about the response that Immigration New Zealand has made in the wake of Cyclone Gabrielle and Cyclone Hale. We know that those events across the North Island resulted in carnage, the destruction of property and infrastructure, and loss of life. We know that the scale is not something that we\u2019ve had to deal with in rural communities very often\u2014usually, there\u2019s a flood and we, you know, get on our tractor and we go clean out our neighbour\u2019s fence lines\u2014and we know that the significant labour needs required to respond has been high and complex.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just curious about what the plans are for the cyclone Recovery Visa that was set up. Is it working as intended, and if you can explain some of the types of workers that are coming in to help with the recovery, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022251a0e5893d24a1181bf26e49b0bb85f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022251a0e5893d24a1181bf26e49b0bb85f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to answer Angela Roberts\u2019 questions in that respect. So I think the fact that we were able to get a Recovery Visa up in place as quickly as we did demonstrates how agile our system can now be, in the same way that we did with the Ukraine visa last year and that we\u2019ve done with other special category visas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo with the Recovery Visa, I think there\u2019s roughly 2,800 applications for those visas\u2014about 1,400 were granted. A significant number have been applied for in more recent months, but they\u2019ve actually been declined. That tells you that, actually, the oversight of these applications\u2014and it\u2019s about ensuring that the applications have an authenticity and a genuineness about it\u2014that we\u2019re not just taking anybody who comes. It\u2019s got to be related to particular work related to the recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe advice I\u2019ve had from officials is that, in more recent months\u2014the last couple of months\u2014some of the applications have had the appearance of, using their words, \u201Ca try-on\u201D. And we don\u2019t like try-ons; we like authentic applications. But that has allowed roughly 1,400 workers to come into the country to assist farmers, horticulturalists, and others for the work needed for recovery\u2014for recovering their productive land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo that visa is still open, and it is under review about how much longer we keep it open for. It is still open, but we will keep a close eye on that. The sort of workers that have come through there have been a whole range, actually, from the semi-skilled labourers and what have you to the skilled\u2014carpenters, electricians, and others\u2014who have come here to assist in doing work that is needed to support the recovery from Cyclone Gabrielle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00224999dcf8b5344f0784a619d769afa8b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224999dcf8b5344f0784a619d769afa8b2\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to quickly clarify the previous issue that I was raising around the Active Investor Plus Visa and the investment amount. Because the oral question that I put\u2014and the Associate Minister did it on behalf of the Minister\u2014was on notice, obviously, and it was for \u201Cunweighted\u201D. In the response, it was specifically, the Minister, on behalf, said, \u201Cunweighted\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003ENow, when you average it out, it\u2019s $15 million an application. Now, the reason that\u2019s an issue is because, as the Minister knows, ideally, you\u2019d be getting lots of $5 million investments that New Zealand Trade and Enterprise is happy with and the Government is happy with. But it seems like it just isn\u2019t happening. So with that in mind, it would be good to\u2014if we could go back and check that question at some point to make sure the information was indeed unweighted and correct, and, if it was, what\u2019s happening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00223015fe4435f9408ea7059392967cec29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223015fe4435f9408ea7059392967cec29\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy that the member has repeated that question. I have now, since, had confirmation that the member is correct: the average $15 million value is unweighted. So the thesis that I think the member is trying to establish looks like it is almost certainly correct, which is that most of the applications relate to the higher cash amount, which means that the level of involvement of the investor is not necessarily applying their management skills, but it will be applying their entrepreneurial skills, even if only as a joint investor or a partner in an investment or a \u201Csleeping partner\u201D, as the commercial world refers to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo it is attracting that investment. That is certainly a more active mode of investment than we were seeing for many years previously, which was a lot of people were getting a visa, bringing millions of dollars here, and putting them in Government bonds, putting them in term deposits and things like that, which was not generating employment or generating wealth locally in the way that we want to with this investor class.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Active Investor Plus Visa gives rights and a pathway to residency, so we want to make sure that New Zealand is getting out of that what we need to, which is investment that generates wealth, as opposed to just sitting in a bank account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b49e4da3730449019a9338020c9128b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b49e4da3730449019a9338020c9128b7\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In light of the answers to the patsy question that the Minister gave in question time today around wanting to see more skilled workers in New Zealand, I\u2019d like to read him out a quote from the \u201CImmigration Reset: Setting the scene\u201D speech which says, \u201CIncreasingly, [the] temporary workers [previously coming into New Zealand] are at lower skill levels\u2014nearly half of all Essential Skills visas approved in 2019 were at the two lowest skill levels.\u201D So my question to the Minister is: with the new Accredited Employer Work Visa (AEWV) system that\u2019s been in place for a year, and given his desire to bring in more skilled workers, what is the percentage now of those AEWV workers being on skill levels 1 and 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e10837282005465ab1d785e2a3eb86f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e10837282005465ab1d785e2a3eb86f5\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, thank you for that. To the member, I cannot quantify what that is in terms of skill level, but the whole reason for setting a minimum income level, median wage level, is to incentivise employers to employ higher skill levels than would otherwise be the case. That is an objective of this scheme, and one of the concerns that this Government had picked up from many people over many years in the years previously was we had an immigration scheme that allowed a lot of unqualified or semi-skilled people to come here where that was not necessarily where the need was. It is about focusing employers here on filling skilled gaps that we just cannot fill locally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI know that that member, when I look at the comments that she made to The Platform in April this year, is not concerned about that, and she thinks there shouldn\u2019t be a wage threshold or an income threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a63dd5b5b047efa10a258d14ecf098\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s nice that you listen to me!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cb0ff2b33104ba2bddcc1d295a50f84\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: And so\u2014well, the member thinks that I listen to her; actually, she goes and talks to The Platform. I have to tell that member\u2014to her considerable regret, I\u2019m sure\u2014that I don\u2019t listen to The Platform. I do note what she said to The Platform, which was this\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CI\u2019ve been saying for a long time is we\u2019ve got to get rid of this median wage rubbish about, you know, you have to earn almost $30 an hour to be able to work in New Zealand, which means in some cases you\u2019re going to be paid more than the Kiwi standing next to you. That\u2019s just got to go.\u201D So we know what the National Party wants to do. And\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd4c6c8d545d4855946a5d6acb313339\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd4c6c8d545d4855946a5d6acb313339\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time for the Minister\u2019s time in the chair has come to an end, and we now make room for the Minister of Education. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c9d8ee72d584a42b2213ebb8194570f\u0022\u003EEducation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0049a2bbe604e8eb62edcc0784251b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0049a2bbe604e8eb62edcc0784251b2\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Chairperson of the Education and Workforce Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call in this Estimates debate for Vote Education, as chair of the Education and Workforce Committee. We did have the Minister come and have a hearing with us at the Education and Workforce Committee to cover the three Votes that this Estimates covers: Vote Education, Vote Education Review Office, and Vote Tertiary Education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, this is a significant Estimate for the Government in terms of the amount of money that this Estimate seeks. I think the overall amount for the three Votes is $21.5\u00A0billion, which is a considerable amount of money. But as you will see, I\u2019m sure through the next wee while, as we look at what\u2019s covered in the Estimates, it\u2019s of incredible importance to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo we looked at three major areas at the Education and Workforce Committee, and they were: early childhood, compulsory sector, and tertiary education. I thought it might be helpful to the committee, as part of this debate in my role of going through this report, to just outline some of the summaries of the appropriations that are sought under these Estimates for Vote Education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo we had a total of $11,586 million for educational services, primarily for schools, including teacher salaries in early learning providers. And this is aside from teacher salaries, school operation grants, early learning subsidies, and other significant costs, including curriculum support and professional development in schools and early learning sectors, and school transport services. A total of nearly $3,578 million for services to the Ministry of Education, including the delivery of school accommodation, including depreciation and capital charge, and learning support services being the most significant costs. We had $2,004 million for capital expenditure to the Ministry of Education, mainly related to school sector properties. And $104 million for other educational services, mainly for funding to proprietors of integrated schools. We had $77 million for capital expenditure in schools and $59 million for allowances, scholarships, and awards for students, teachers, and trainees. So a significant investment sought in these Estimates by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI thought I would just also go over some of the key comments made during our Estimates hearing in Vote Education. So the first area we looked at was early childhood education. We did cover the significant\u2014over $1 billion\u2014expense into the 20-hours free of early childhood education for two-year-olds, which was announced in this year\u2019s Budget, obviously expanding that 20 free hours to two-year-olds from the current three- to five-year-olds. So that was a significant matter that was discussed during the Estimates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe also looked at school attendance, which is a matter which is raised within our committee regularly. And we heard from the Minister on the progress that has been made in that area and also that schools are working hard to increase the attendance of school students. We also heard from the ministry that regular attendance was a foundational aspect for student achievement and that there\u2019s been significant progress in schools that had a concerted effort in this area, and one that we noted was in Northland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe also looked, in the compulsory sector, at NCEA and the curriculum. We know that NCEA is being updated and we heard from the Minister on that. Obviously there\u2019s expenditure associated with these two curriculum changes. We also heard about some schools opting out of NCEA level 1. I understand that this has always been optional, but none the less it was covered in our hearing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe also looked, just quickly, at upgrading small and remote schools, alternative education, Pacific and M\u0101ori education, tertiary student enrolments, and funding. We talked about Te P\u016Bkenga, we talked about other rogue entities, and also immigration settings in relation to education. So overall, we covered a wide variety of key issues within the Vote Education area, including the significant Estimates made by the Government. I look forward to hearing from the Minister in relation to her thoughts, and members\u2019 questions on the Estimates as presented to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00221c2873ff898f45ab9c431fd089301b3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c2873ff898f45ab9c431fd089301b3f\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Early childhood education (ECE), the early childhood sector, and particularly the home-based providers\u2014the Minister will be aware that over 50 home-based providers closed between January and May this year. I\u2019d like to know what the Minister plans for this sector and whether she has made any provision for increases, given that home-based ECE is limited to a ratio of one to four but when the children turn over two years old, home-based get a reduction, a significant reduction, yet they can\u2019t increase their ratios in the way that centre-based provision can. So what provision is she making for securing home-based providers and provision in the sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00222c10c276bdee48fd944bee7889a08e0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c10c276bdee48fd944bee7889a08e0d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you, and thank you for that question, although it\u2019s a little bit premature in some respects, because we\u2019re well aware of the issues and I think everybody\u2019s well aware of the issues that home-based are facing at this point in time. I will say that my Associate Minister, the Hon Jo Luxton, has had some really good discussions with members from the early childhood education community over the short time that she has been Associate Minister and in that role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe have sought advice from home-based around home-based and what we can be doing there. We\u2019re currently working through that advice. We do not want to leave home-based so that they are feeling unsupported, but we also want to make certain that we get it right within the context of the total provision and the total network within the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe absolutely understand the importance of them within the network, which is one of the reasons why we are committed to this work and working through it with some urgency as well. I know that\u2019s a little bit frustrating, but I will say to the member that when we do have that advice and when we have made those decisions and we are able to go public on them, she will be one of the first to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022b856e0f553c94849bae60ef29f0bedd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b856e0f553c94849bae60ef29f0bedd4\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you Madam Chair. Just the rate of closures of home-based provision\u2014as I said, over 50 in the five months at the start of this year\u2014the home-based sector is concerned by the end of the year there may be no home-based provision that isn\u2019t cross-subsidised by centre provision. So is the Minister able to give some sort of indication of timing and amounts of funding? Because the word we are getting from the home-based providers is that by the end of this year there will be none left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc0a10cd549c451e8efb1d759bb7c746\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc0a10cd549c451e8efb1d759bb7c746\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Which is why we\u2019re working in some haste through the advice that we have been given. We do know that closures do happen for a variety of reasons. We have also made certain that we\u2019re looking into those variety of reasons. It\u2019s not just around the funding, although that is a main reason as well. But we are making certain that we are not causing unintended consequences in the decision making that we are taking at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf6b299143ff4357bbaa2a315be51dca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf6b299143ff4357bbaa2a315be51dca\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E The pay parity funding for the centres, in particular the early childhood education centres\u2014much has been said within the sector about how the paucity of pay parity funding from the Government is likely to increase fees, or is likely to increase or make the ratios worse in the sector. Can the Minister give some more certainty to the sector around pay parity funding so they can be sure it\u2019s not going to impact negatively on either the centres or families with children in the centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002236ac9b0be7e34943b1583bfdb14daf8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236ac9b0be7e34943b1583bfdb14daf8d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E So, thank you, pay parity is very important, that we acknowledge that a teacher is a teacher no matter what sector they are working within. It is something that this Government has been committed to right from its outset. We are absolutely committed to achieving pay parity between certificated teachers in education and care services, and the kindergarten teachers, as the member has said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EOf course this does reflect the action 3.4 in the Early Learning Action Plan. So one of the aspects that the Government set out to do first was to work through that Early Learning Action Plan so that we were making certain that we had targeted responses in the early learning sector to some of their biggest issues. But also to make certain that we\u2019re putting the young person at the centre\u2014to make certain that we\u2019re well remunerating those well-qualified teachers within those centres, because we know that they make a huge difference to those young children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo Budget 2023\u2014and I\u2019ll just get my figure here\u2014provided $321.6 million over four years to education and care services through a third opt in funding rate, and that is the third of the opt in funding rates. It disperses this funding through new funding rates, full pay parity rates for education and care services that attests to paying teachers with relevant qualifications and experiences at least the kindergarten teachers\u2019 collective agreement steps 1 to 11. At the time, those rates were $51,358 to $90,000, but of course, we do know that there has been a collective agreement in the kindergarten teachers\u2019 agreement that has been settled since then. And paying in that too, back then it was paying managers a minimum salary of $94,175. These full pay parity rates matched the kindergarten funding rates and will be available from 1 November 2023. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo we can tell, and we have been in contact with\u2014the Ministry have been in contact with the sector to ensure those people that are going to be in those parts of the sector that are going to be opting in to that level, that those rates will be available, and they have those rates with them now, as in they know what they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002235dbab8a3a3e4ae6935eac2618359dd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235dbab8a3a3e4ae6935eac2618359dd8\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E So the options that are being put to the centres by the Ministry, have they got figures in them to allow the centres to model the impact on them at this stage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a274d3c8328042609b832a320ff64c29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a274d3c8328042609b832a320ff64c29\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to go back to some of the answers given in question time today around the achievement of M\u0101ori students in NCEA level 2. The Minister claimed today, as an excuse for this, that many M\u0101ori students, or many students, are leaving for work, for further education, for apprenticeships, or they\u2019re travelling overseas. My first question to the Minister is: what kind of employment does she expect that a child without NCEA level 2 will be able to go into? And what sort of future will they have in the job market without NCEA level 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae35d65d11eb4ef38ed0ed4591936557\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae35d65d11eb4ef38ed0ed4591936557\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I wouldn\u2019t say it was an excuse, as the member Erica Stanford has just said that to be. That is the reason why young people are leaving at this point in time, and we do know that we have high employment rates at this point in time. Of course, we know that the pandemic has put this stress on families, and we know that different demographics haven\u2019t had an even experience during the pandemic, as well. This isn\u2019t just in this country; this is across the globe. This is something that my counterparts in other OECD countries have highlighted as one of their key issues that they are also facing as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe also know that an education is really important for a young person to be able to make choices. If the member had listened carefully to the question before that question in today\u2019s question time, that was my last statement: I said, as I have always said, education gives choices, and choices are important for people to be able to have different pathways in life, as well. At no time am I ever saying that it is acceptable when young people leave school without NCEA or without qualifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe also know that there are other pathways, and I also pointed out to this House today that the NCEA in school is not the only way that those young people can get those qualifications. We know that Youth Guarantee funding has been increased to enable people to reengage and get those qualifications. That is one of the reasons why this Government has increased that Youth Guarantee funding: so that, when they are leaving school, those pathways haven\u2019t been closed off for them; that they are able to enter in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI know that the member also goes visiting, like I do, into some of those areas. I\u2019ve seen some amazing opportunities recently for young people. In fact, I was at one on Friday where young people were very excited about the increase in opportunities for them to carry on with their education and to get those qualifications. I\u2019m really proud of the fact that, yes, we know that there are people who might be leaving without it, but we\u2019re putting those opportunities in place so that we\u2019re not taking those choices away; that those young people will have those choices available to them throughout their education lifespan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8d235c581b8499083740d84d6928b37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8d235c581b8499083740d84d6928b37\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to turn your mind, Minister, to some of our students with the greatest challenges with alternative education. There have been some initiatives that we\u2019ve reflected on like Te Tupu, and I\u2019m just curious about how that\u2019s impacting on decisions about how we better support our alternative education. Many of us, like you said, have had experiences with some amazing places. In my own area, Ng\u0101 W\u0101nanga a Maui Potiki are doing amazing work, but they\u2019re all doing it on a shoestring and I\u2019m just curious about the resourcing and other supports that are going in as you try and support those students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00229fddc40aff5b4f89adb80655c2db3c4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fddc40aff5b4f89adb80655c2db3c4b\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that question. It\u2019s something that was actually traversed when I attended the select committee as well, because alternative education is another pathway for our young people. It is something that I believe\u2014people will have heard me say this before\u2014that not always does a schooling environment suit all our young people, or our young people need further support to be able to access the schooling environment. Te Tupu is a really interesting one because, as this member knows, alternative education is something that\u2019s traditionally started at an older age group, and yet we have been seeing increasingly a number of younger people\u2014younger age group children; intermediate and primary school\u2014who were disengaging or who were at risk of disengaging from their schooling environment, and that\u2019s really difficult if you can\u2019t get to them and turn that around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo Te Tupu was set up by my predecessor the Hon Tracey Martin in Napier. I think she called it a prototype rather than a pilot, and, basically, what it did there was from year three up, schools came together and they identified young people who might be at risk of disengaging. They came into this programme for a set amount of time, but it was a wraparound, so it has a whole lot of NGOs and different organisations that are part of the management group. Those young people are having huge success when they\u2019re going back into their schooling environment because they\u2019re have this wraparound and they\u2019ve had kind of the pre-teaching, in some respects, that they didn\u2019t get before of how to experience the school environment. So Budget 2023 has put some more funding into extending that. It won\u2019t look the same throughout the country because we expect that there will be regional differences, and, of course, the funding won\u2019t be for a full roll-out, but it is starting to work that through in a co-design in different areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also increased the per-student funding rate into alternative education. Alternative education had had very little funding put into it over time. It was only in the last couple of years that we started to increase that funding, and it\u2019s gone up to just over $16,000 now per student. Now, that\u2019s probably only bringing it back to where it should have been years ago, so there is more work to do in this area and more discussions to be had with different peak body groups, particularly iwi\u2014I\u2019m going to say here\u2014because the majority of children and young people in alternative education are M\u0101ori, and so we\u2019ve got to make certain that we are getting something that works for them. A lot of work has been done, but I think the pandemic has taught us different ways that we might be able to reach these young people as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really excited about the opportunities that we have in this space. I think that we have to create a system that works around the young person, and not always expect that the young person has to work around the system, so that we can actually support that young person to understand how systems work through something that truly works for them. So the money has been increased, and the providers are really liking that, but we\u2019ve got more work to do in that space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1c6a185c7c844dd83f883adc3dd4ce3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1c6a185c7c844dd83f883adc3dd4ce3\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister of Education about the science curriculum\u2014the leaked draft science curriculum. I asked her in the Chamber a little while ago why it didn\u2019t include chemistry, biology, and physics, and her answer was: \u201CThe member is wrong; the final curriculum will include chemistry, physics, biology, and other core science topics. That is not in question.\u201D I just want to get the Minister to elaborate on that. Does that mean that those topics will be as they are at the moment? So you do physics, you do biology, and you do chemistry, and, within each of those disciplines, you learn many things\u2014I\u2019m sure; I never did them, so who knows? But the point is that I would like the Minister to just let us know whether or not the draft curriculum that we\u2019ve seen is not going to be the final curriculum and that, actually, the final curriculum will include physics, chemistry, and biology as stand-alone subjects that young learners will get scaffolder learning through?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00225b88fb4f73ba419481d4e7c10d71c857\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b88fb4f73ba419481d4e7c10d71c857\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, it wasn\u2019t the draft curriculum; it\u2019s called a fast draft. It\u2019s almost a draft of thinking. It\u2019s a way that a lot of different places will put out thinking to start with to see whether it\u2019s going to resonate with the sector or not. The draft curriculum is scheduled to be released later this year, but I also want to make sure that we\u2019re getting that right as well\u2014and clearly there was some feedback.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EBut can I just go back to what the member was saying. There was almost a thought there that nothing had to change, and that\u2019s not what the evidence shows us. The New Zealand Council for Educational Research 2019 analysis for the Ministry of Education shows that, in the current curriculum, science concepts are unclear, and it is hard to see how learning would deepen. The OECD 2015 report: 15-year-olds have low awareness of science concepts associated with climate change and sustainability. The National Monitoring Study of Student Achievement data shows that achievement in science drops from years 4 to year 8, where only 20 percent of students achieve at or above curriculum expectations. Otago NCEA data 2023: science pathways through senior secondary show that the success rates for those who do sciences year 12 to 13 are low and are dropping. That tells me that there needs to be work done on the curriculum and that we can\u2019t have it that we\u2019re just keeping the curriculum in its form at the moment. In fact, every science teacher that I have spoken to and every scientist that I have spoken to\u2014including the Prime Minister\u2019s Chief Science Adviser\u2014have all told me that we can\u2019t just expect to keep the same, because we are not going to have and produce the science expertise that we need in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EIndeed, the final science curriculum will include chemistry, physics, biology, and other core science topics. That is not in question. How that looks, I am not going to presuppose the work that the experts in the sector are working on at this moment, and are working through a new curriculum and are testing different options between themselves and looking at it to make certain that we\u2019re getting that right. They are making certain that the feedback that has come back from that first thinking is incorporated into that next step, and I think that\u2019s really important, and that\u2019s why we want to take the time to get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d950547b74ca43bc8c346006df22d331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d950547b74ca43bc8c346006df22d331\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So in the draft that wasn\u2019t a draft, could I ask the Minister of Education: what was the feedback that was received and how was it received? As she said that she\u2019s aware of the feedback and how it\u2019s been received. I\u2019m just keen to know how it was received and what the feedback was when those core topics were stripped out and replaced with earth system, biodiversity, food, energy, water, and infectious diseases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00227a0c264133294879a77a37aa886e8808\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a0c264133294879a77a37aa886e8808\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I think that the member will have seen some feedback that came through in the media, and that\u2019s no different to what I\u2019ve seen. People were concerned that those core science topics might be not covered if we went too far in one area of looking at context only and the context. But the context is important. So it\u2019s a mixture of both. And what\u2019s been received\u2014I\u2019m not really certain what the member\u2019s getting at; are you meaning how the ministry received it? It came through in the normal way of how it was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbbcee40e762484b8407153009fc3198\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: How was it received? Like, as in what was the feedback?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f8c25ce66c7469384a0965989f382de\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Just exactly what I\u2019ve said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c08939d16e144bc89bb989d0c58b3382\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Terrible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208192a259fff4e34ad80de5c8ed8863b\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014so exactly what I\u2019ve said\u2014no, I wouldn\u2019t say that at all, to that member; I would say that there was a feeling that we were probably here and we\u2019ve gone too far here and we\u2019ve got to find a place in the middle. That\u2019s exactly why we do the testing: to get this right. If we don\u2019t do the testing and test it out with the sector, which I have seen happen so many times in education, that would be one of the worst things that we could do. We are not prepared for those kids to be guinea pigs like they have in the past in many other initiatives that I have been privy to\u2014one of those being national standards. I\u2019m not prepared as Minister to lead that sort of environment in our education system, and that\u2019s why I will make no apologies for taking a document such as the science thinking out for testing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00227647dd4f32f044688ed62227bb3dc4f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227647dd4f32f044688ed62227bb3dc4f6\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E For all of the science teachers, the heads of departments, and principals that have contacted me\u2014many, many, many of them who are very concerned\u2014I have one simple question for the Minister that they\u2019re all asking: can she confirm that a student wanting to sit NCEA will be able to pick a topic called \u201Cchemistry\u201D, a topic called \u201Cbiology\u201D, and a topic called \u201Cphysics\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00223a0c7276ecf0463087bb98db3665a318\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a0c7276ecf0463087bb98db3665a318\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The member is conflating NCEA and the curriculum. The NCEA subjects have been quite explicitly put out there to the sector, for the sector to know what they are. They know what\u2019s going to be expected. They are there to see right now. So you cannot conflate the two. Yes, they are interrelated, and we have had that discussion in the Education Committee, but to say that is going to then determine what the NCEA subjects are is not quite correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWhat I will say is that we do have to make certain that our young people have the broad science knowledge that underpins good scientific experiment, hypothesis, and learning, and that is really important, which is why I understand that the ministry will use the feedback they receive from teachers to build on the draft curriculum, and I expect that the basics will be more explicitly covered in the next version of that draft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc633a6dafe14a3f915c9f9341ef8318\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc633a6dafe14a3f915c9f9341ef8318\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to change the subject a little bit, we all know how important attendance is for achievement. We talk a lot about truancy and kids not attending. Yet we still have to wait until November for term 2\u2019s attendance data. I wondered whether any work was being done to improve the receiving of that information. A month or two ago, we talked about technology not being available to some schools and that is a reason one of the over 200 schools that don\u2019t present the data\u2014that technology unavailability was a reason for not putting the data in. I wonder if that is still the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022443f46d8987f47a884afcaa887d26f9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022443f46d8987f47a884afcaa887d26f9c\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Interestingly enough, that\u2019s a question that I\u2019ve asked officials about; why it takes so long with that data\u2014the term 2 data. The member knows this too: July is one of the critical and key points for data collection on attendance. Because of that, there is a lot more work to go through. This is the answer that I was given this week: because of that amount that has to be done from the July return, then it does take them a lot longer to do that work, because they\u2019re also working through 2024 rolls. All of those things come from that data, which is why it takes that long to work through that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u0022435c42e14214498fb6a9778ea8b274a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022435c42e14214498fb6a9778ea8b274a8\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Kia orana, Minister. We know the impact on families around the motu to do with cost of living issues, because we know children that are hungry can be a major impediment to learning. Minister, can you outline please the importance or evidence of extending the Ka Ora, Ka Ako Healthy School Lunches programme, and how this ties into supporting families through the cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022ace91e1248fa426394a7589808f6ff0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ace91e1248fa426394a7589808f6ff0c\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The Healthy School Lunches programme is something that I am incredibly proud of, that this Government is making a difference to those young people. I do go around schools, in many cases\u2014I know members in this Chamber all go around too\u2014and see and hear exactly the same stories back of the difference it is making to young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EOne of the key areas that I hear is that food security in those schools is no longer an issue; that young people don\u2019t get anxious about the fact that they don\u2019t have lunch in their bags, that they don\u2019t get anxious and cause issues around the lunch time, because everybody is getting that. They don\u2019t feel ashamed. Someone that has been in schools\u2014I know that we used to provide lunches, but, of course, we could only provide to those young people that didn\u2019t have them. It was always this tension, because you knew that young people felt that sense of shame as well, that they didn\u2019t have a lunch. This is a great way to know that those young people don\u2019t sense that emotion and that shame any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EOne of the key areas that I love hearing is that afternoons are no longer a dead time for learning; that young people have that food in their tummies, and that afternoon is actually just as important for learning time as what the morning is. I just think that the amount of time that we\u2019ve given back to kids for their learning, just through this, is worth it alone. So it is helping families. Recently, in the last recess, I had a mum come up to me at another event that I was at, who said to me, \u201CYou\u2019ll never know the difference that that\u2019s made to my family. I\u2019ve got money now that I can spend on providing dinner.\u201D I had a teacher who came up to me\u2014at that same event\u2014and said, \u201CI\u2019ve got kids now who come and say to me that they don\u2019t have to decide who has dinner at night time, because they don\u2019t have to spend that money on providing lunches, that they can provide it for dinner, and the difference that that\u2019s making is immeasurable for those families.\u201D You know, these are kids that are excited about being at school, and excited about their learning, but their families are excited because they\u2019ve got more disposable income to use in other areas to support their families as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022d529f0ff86fd4f15b3c96923f64b92a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d529f0ff86fd4f15b3c96923f64b92a7\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, the Tertiary Education Commission\u2019s development and delivery of an IT system to deliver the unified funding system\u2014I wonder if you could tell us: has it finally been scoped, costed, and a time frame given for that, and, if so, how much has been spent already and what proportion the $7.85 million is of it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4c3cef3e28b412a9c16b7ba0534a51b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4c3cef3e28b412a9c16b7ba0534a51b\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll get back to the member with that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00224a54b88dfe1243a3a26aa523eaa6f21e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a54b88dfe1243a3a26aa523eaa6f21e\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve got three questions, Madam Chair, for the Minister: one on achievement, one on attendance, and one on establishment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENow, the year on year of performance of M\u0101ori students in NCEA 2 improved between 2011 and 2017. It went from 53.1 percent to 68.9 percent and now it\u2019s regressed to 58.6\u00A0percent. In addition, the university entrance achievement by M\u0101ori in 2021 was only 19 percent and I\u2019d like to know from the Minister\u2014the achievement question\u2014what messages is the Minister giving to iwi and M\u0101ori leaders on how the education will improve the achievement by M\u0101ori students\u2014those young mokopuna and cherished tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9bc0899aad1477ba4281d02d362027c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9bc0899aad1477ba4281d02d362027c\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to see some questions being asked around the school lunch programme. My question for the Minister is: why was it in this Budget that the healthy lunch programme was only funded for one more year, given all of her comments that she just made around how great she thinks it is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002261fe59ad808841d3bd6cc6b2030fac30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261fe59ad808841d3bd6cc6b2030fac30\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll come back to the member over there too; I\u2019m just finding the figures as well, so I will come back to that. But I just wanted to say I was quite open about this at the time of the Budget and I was quite open in the select committee about it as well. We had competing initiatives in this Budget. It is a big investment and so we were able to fund it till the end of 2024, but it is something that I continue to keep working on and advocating for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00221f005d2901f549328d4d055d8e0fdce8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f005d2901f549328d4d055d8e0fdce8\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m up to my attendance question now. Now, M\u0101ori attendance at school\u2014regular attendance at school\u2014in term 4, 2022, was 38 percent. In term 4 of 2022, 38 percent of M\u0101ori kids went to school regularly. There have been some minor improvements since then, but not enough, in my view. Just what messages is the Minister giving to iwi and M\u0101ori leaders about how she will ensure there will be improvement in regular attendance by those young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe final question in my triplicate is around establishment. So M\u0101ori are desperate for performance at school, by schools that generate and facilitate outperformance by young M\u0101ori children. And the best outperforming school for university entrance with a majority of M\u0101ori students is a school known as Manukura in Palmerston North\u2014a great school. Now, the Manukura principals are taking up residence at a phenomenal school called St Stephen\u2019s School in Bombay. What is the Minister doing to give capital expenditure and operating expenditure support to the re-establishment of St Stephen\u2019s School in Bombay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00222d1c1c63b0274ca78a5e49fc63ce13c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d1c1c63b0274ca78a5e49fc63ce13c9\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Just staying with the healthy lunches theme, I\u2019m just wondering\u2014I mean, the Minister gave some really great anecdotal evidence of people that she had talked to on her visits, which we all get. I\u2019m interested in the evidence. What evidence does the Minister have since the start of the healthy lunch programmes as to increases in attendance, increases in achievement of those students in school\u2014actual data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f189af8e2c542e6abb9f3f8f7cfa991\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022374749c7156b41f7a09aa771aa430c1b\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: We couldn\u2019t hear. Can you start again please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edcef5ad1da54c89b31bfb0ba751ac9a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeaff3a5694a465696969aece75645bf\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: My question was: what evidence and data does she have to support the healthy lunch programme in terms of achievement and attendance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022a21af0deff7c4133b9eaa2163871f7a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a21af0deff7c4133b9eaa2163871f7a2\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I will have to just get what\u2019s happening with St Stephen\u2019s. I remember reading some work about that, but, of course, it comes under the Hon Kelvin Davis, so I will have to look through that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EAttendance is something that we\u2019ve been aware of for quite some time\u2014or Government, I should say, because this is the big \u201Cwe\u201D here. We\u2019ve been aware that attendance for M\u0101ori hasn\u2019t always been easy to encourage. I know that, going back to mine, again, that when the attendance services were taken and made into bigger entities that that became even harder to establish those relationships, and we know that establishing relationships is really, really critically important with M\u0101ori, and so we\u2019ve been working with peak body groups in that area. I know that with the re-signing of contracts, I think it\u2019s almost tripled the number of contracts that we have signed, because we have made those attendance services closer to schools. What I will say is one-third of attendance services are being led by iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI do know that when I\u2019ve visited\u2014and I\u2019m sure that the member has had the same experiences\u2014different places around the motu, where services in any of the education sector are being led by iwi, we\u2019re seeing some really good results. That\u2019s why a number of those contracts\u2014as I say, one-third\u2014have been signed over to iwi, and I\u2019m really looking forward to working with them further to have those results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe lunch programme\u2014we have had three evaluations so far and they are all positive. We continue to refine the programme. Again, I just want to connect the two questions there, because some of the best examples that I have seen in the lunch programme have also been led by iwi. There\u2019s one, in particular, that really stands out for me, and that is Victory Primary School in Nelson and the work that the iwi have done down there to lead that programme and the difference that it has made to young people\u2019s attendance and engagement in that particular school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ENow, they\u2019re not the only ones, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re gathering through the evaluations to show whether it is making a difference or not. As the member who asked the question about attendance and engagement with the lunch programme knows, I very much always say that I\u2019ve always been an evidence-based practitioner, and it\u2019s really important to me that evidence is collected and that we do see it. If we see that there are some anomalies, I want to know why those anomalies exist, and so that\u2019s been something that I\u2019ve been really clear about. But some of the best engagement that we have seen, and the best attendance that we have seen is because of the work that we\u2019ve seen in those iwi-led lunch programmes, but they\u2019re not the only ones. It seems to be also, I will say, where young people are having a voice and having agency in the delivery of those programmes as well. I think those of us, and there are a few people in the House that I know have been educators, across both sides of the Chamber here\u2014we know that when there is learner agency we do tend to see better results and stronger results, and that is something that I want to follow up with as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u002268b4b0c8219f419b864c403065437a6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268b4b0c8219f419b864c403065437a6e\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Hamilton West is a beautiful place and there\u2019s some great schools over there, and I think the Minister would have visited a couple of those schools. A couple of Hamilton West-specific questions. Melville High School and Melville Intermediate School are going to combine soon into a facility called Mangak\u014Dtukutuku and they\u2019ve been living in prefabs that are 60 years old. There was an indicative commitment to help with the capital expenditure support to actually refurbish all these classrooms\u201460-year-old prefabs\u2014and just wondering where we got to, where the Ministry has got to with actually supporting Mangak\u014Dtukutuku to get new classrooms and not live in 60-year-old prefabs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe other topic that I just wanted to mention or ask about was the establishment of a new school in a suburb called Glenview or Peacocke in Hamilton, because that place is absolutely booming and we\u2019ve got massive transport issues carrying kids all over the city, from those suburbs, to get to school. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002296f8c740acff48f4b8eddceebc8e5137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296f8c740acff48f4b8eddceebc8e5137\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Just going to see\u2014because they\u2019re quite specific questions so I\u2019ve got people looking at those. But I just wanted to go back to your question about St Stephen\u2019s. The Government has considered one application from St Stephen\u2019s, and any further application may be considered, and we need to take into account the costs and other factors as well, so that\u2019s where we\u2019re at with St Stephen\u2019s at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI just wanted to touch on that last part of that question, not that I\u2019ve got a specific answer to that just yet about Peacocke\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b9185de3b584ab79e301939d0518cb0\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: Glenview and Peacocke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a32f5cbb9ea4a79965c3e9ec0053868\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Glenview and Peacocke. Look, Hamilton is one of our growth areas that have been identified, so that will be work that will be going on. The good part I\u2019d say\u2014the good factor about what\u2019s happening in that property space and those growth areas is that we have identified where those growth areas are. So there\u2019s a\u2014it\u2019s a plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just a hit and miss. It\u2019s looking at exactly where those growth areas are, but that those two specific areas we can come back to you on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc53a1442475447badbf68d8beba1bb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc53a1442475447badbf68d8beba1bb4\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to finish up on the school lunch question, because I asked quite a specific question and got a long answer, but not actually the answer I was looking for, which is around the data. What data and evidence is there to suggest an improvement in achievement and kids turning up at school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned that there are three evaluations done, and she mentioned one particular programme. I want to know, overall, in those evaluations\u2014given that we\u2019ve been running now for a wee while\u2014is there any evidence to support that kids are achieving better or turning up to school more regularly because of the school lunch programme? So \u201Cdata\u201D, as she likes to talk about, as she likes to follow\u2014like we all do. What do those evaluations say? Has she seen anything else that suggests that overall there is a lift in achievement or attendance because of the school lunch programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00228971c2f0bc3840dea4734e2879747d5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228971c2f0bc3840dea4734e2879747d5b\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E You asked about the evaluations and the data that we\u2019re collecting, and I did talk about those three evaluations, but the different evaluations that we\u2019ve done are focusing on different areas. I will talk about the 2022 evaluation and the 2023 evaluation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe 2022 evaluation showed that the young people at those schools are happier, healthier, and have a higher quality of nutrition, which means that when they\u2019re healthier, they, again\u2014you know, those of us that have worked particularly in those areas that are low socio-economic areas know that when those young people get sick, they get very sick, and so attendance becomes really difficult and really patchy in some of those areas. But what is happening is that they are having healthier outcomes because of the high-quality nutrition, and they are happier, so they are wanting to be more engaged in their schooling and their learning as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe 2023 evaluation showed that there are improved outcomes for M\u0101ori learners through the iwi-led initiatives, which is why I linked the two answers before\u2014because we are seeing that those iwi-led initiatives are showing improved outcomes for our M\u0101ori learners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002262786bbaef4d4d12bf637014d3e82497\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262786bbaef4d4d12bf637014d3e82497\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Well, in mid-2001, the then Victoria University of Wellington Students\u2019 Association (VUWSA) president sent out a press release titled: \u201CStudent Debt Set to Cripple New Zealand\u201D. That association president lamented, \u201CThe current generation of politicians are mortgaging the future of our country. The burden of this will not only be felt by students who graduate with large debts, but also by the future taxpayers of New Zealand who will be left to clean up the mess \u2026 If we are to get this debt under control fees must come down and access to living allowances will have to increase\u201D. That is a quote from then VUWSA president, now Prime Minister of this country, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe reason that I raise this is that parliamentarians may be aware that this afternoon, on Parliament\u2019s lawn, there was yet another rally to stop the cuts at our universities. I want to acknowledge the Minister for the work that we\u2019ve both engaged in over the past few months, and particularly what led to the announcement of the $128 million, if we were actually to have seen student enrolment figures at the level that they were once projected to be. But the Minister will be well aware of the fact that there are still universities across this country that are making substantive proposals with regard to staff cuts. So that is my first question to the Minister: what kind of engagement is she having with those tertiary institutions about what options may be available to them to retain those staff or to work through a pathway over the next year whereby these cuts slow down and we can make more strategic decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also aware that, if not this Minister, former Ministers of Education have commissioned advice on, for example, a universal student allowance and the cost of its provisions, particularly, I\u2019d note, with the advocacy of us doggedly chasing that bone, as the Greens in the Education and Workforce Committee. To that effect, I guess, thinking about a universal student allowance, and obviously the fact that approximately a third of students get access to it at present. And just kind of the intersection with that issue around student enrolment figures and the flow-on impact to the tertiary funding that is being received. Where is the place of students and what kind of engagement and meaningful evidence has been collected on student hardship to try and understand how that is then impacting students\u2019 ability to actually be enrolled in their study in the first place, and therefore, through the bums on seats funding model, the funding that these tertiary institutions are then getting access to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo just to make that really clear: the key kind of issues that I\u2019m interested in here are\u2014noting that the Minister has worked really hard to get that $128 million reallocation\u2014there are still substantive job cuts that are being proposed, so what can be done and what work is the Minister undertaking to ensure that those do not progress? Secondly, what is the role of students and understanding of students\u2019 needs when it comes to this funding model at present? And has there been any investigation of dealing with student poverty to then deal with student enrolment figures? And then thirdly, I guess, dovetailing into that all nicely: where is the review at that was promised of the tertiary education funding model?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd954613679549fdba803533d555d224\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd954613679549fdba803533d555d224\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Just before I come to those, I\u2019ve got another couple of answers that I said that I would come back on. So with the unified funding system, the initial tactical implementation was completed and up and running on 1 January 2023. The strategic long-term solution is on track for 1 January 2025. Under 20 percent of the budget has been used so far. Now, Peacocke: two sites have been identified. Currently negotiating with developers. I can\u2019t say any more than that because it is commercially sensitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ECan I also thank the member there for her engagement in this and her advocacy for students in the tertiary sector\u2014a long-time advocate\u2014and someone that I enjoy having discussions with about because of your understanding of the sector as well and of the students\u2019 needs. Just what I was saying before: when I talk about agency, I talk about agency at all levels. And I think, when we encourage and engage with the young people\u2014I\u2019m going to say young people; they\u2019re not all young people. But when we engage with them, the learners, we also know that we\u2019re getting that input and it\u2019s going to work for them, because we\u2019re having them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ELook, I\u2019ve met with the hierarchy of New Zealand Union of Students\u2019 Associations. We\u2019ve had initial discussions just at a ministerial level. It\u2019s not me that\u2019s working through that next stage but I will say that the higher education review officials are currently arranging engagement with the students as well. Those terms of reference are going to come back in by the end of the year. So, basically, taking time to get that right. I know it\u2019s a rushed situation because there\u2019s pressure on it, but at the same time we don\u2019t want to get a situation that doesn\u2019t encompass all of the solutions that we need to see [removes glasses]\u2014I\u2019ll take those off so I can see you properly\u2014to help identify everything. This is an opportunity. I don\u2019t want to get to the end of it and then we hear \u201COh, look, why didn\u2019t we think about this at the time too?\u201D So the member is also going to be very important in that part of the discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EYou talk about the tertiary institution cuts. So one of the aspects that you will know at the time when we made the announcement about the $128 million, which understandably became the big focus at the time that that was it, but in my head the more important parts\u2014or just as important parts\u2014were the review, but also the fact that we were looking at network provision across the network to make certain that we weren\u2019t losing that provision and that was unduly impacting upon students in different institutions as well. So that advice is about to go through to Cabinet around that, so I can\u2019t discuss that here. But we\u2019re very, very close to being able to look at where we\u2019re at with that and if there\u2019s any follow-up that\u2019s needed to make certain that those learners have that provision that\u2019s there and that we\u2019re not losing that across the network. So that\u2019s where that\u2019s at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00224511ac3bf30c4f5d87a458e9b8c273bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224511ac3bf30c4f5d87a458e9b8c273bb\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister, the Hon Jan Tinetti, for those considered and thoughtful responses to that line of questioning. I guess, just to dig into this stuff a little bit more, it\u2019s really interesting to hear about that advice that is being commissioned and going up to Cabinet with regard to network provision\u2014and there I\u2019m assuming that it\u2019s about the kind of course provision that\u2019s available and the diversity of that course provision, but also, hopefully, the capacity and the skillset in this country to deliver those courses, and their geographical distribution, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI guess, just to that effect, if we can be crystal clear on what that paper may be capable of actually achieving. Is it the case, given those cuts that are presently on the table, that there is the potential here for the Government to step in and to, for example, issue some kind of, for lack of a better term, moratorium on those cuts, to delay them, or to provide some other form of funding model, whether that be through, I don\u2019t know, leveraging or changes to the way that the Tertiary Education Commission is able to issue debt or otherwise? Is there any hope for those students and those staff who gathered on Parliament\u2019s lawn today to have a kind of quite dramaturgic funeral for the tertiary education sector? Is there any way that they can meaningfully engage with that process? And is there potential of more support or more engagement or a creative solution here coming down the pipeline?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022dff298a7bad74f0cab2b5df4bf93940a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dff298a7bad74f0cab2b5df4bf93940a\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I know this is going to be a bit frustrating, but I can\u2019t get in front of the advice that is coming through to me. I can\u2019t go into it, other than to say that I have engaged with the Victoria University of Wellington Students\u2019 Association president and executive as well, and my door is open to them, and continue to engage to just hear first hand. But can I also once again thank the member Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick for the advocacy, for bringing those through\u2014and I quite mean that: I really do appreciate what you\u2019re doing in that space, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2260567a9d34c8193455435325bd79c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2260567a9d34c8193455435325bd79c\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, the arbitration panel for the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association (PPTA) dispute has come back with a recommendation of 14.5 percent, which is, I understand, going to be taken to Cabinet. Do you have an idea of how much that is going to cost and where that\u2019s going to come from? How will that settlement affect the recent NZEI settlement, if at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe panel wasn\u2019t terribly complimentary about the ministry\u2019s negotiating skills. I just wonder whether you think the ministry may have the lost confidence of the PPTA\u2014or if teachers, even, have lost confidence in the ministry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6595f8f97794a6ab548844979df1f9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6595f8f97794a6ab548844979df1f9f\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Now, once again, there\u2019s not a lot I can say about that, because that will have to go through and be taken through to Cabinet decisions, but that is currently being worked through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWhat I can say is, the member asked about consequences to the NZEI negotiations. Anything that changes in the unified base scale at the secondary has an impact on the primary, which then has an impact on kindergarten collective agreement rates. So there is parity from the secondary, basically, down, in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not sure that I agree with the member\u2019s characterisation of what the arbitration panel is saying, which is something that I\u2019ve been saying to the unions and to the ministry, and the ministry agrees with us, which is we, possibly once we get through this period, need to look at whether negotiation processes, as they stand at the moment, are fit for purpose for 2023 and beyond, and are there better ways that we can be doing this? Because this is something that I think both sides agree with\u2014is that they want to sort this out without the need for getting to the point of industrial action or the prolonged nature of it. It is a traditional way that has been negotiated, but many unions are changing the way that they are negotiating, and we will have those discussions with the union. The unions are well aware of that going forward, after we\u2019ve got this through and we\u2019ve got these settlements signed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EBut that\u2019s as much as I can say on those because of the fact that it does have to go through to Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00227377b2cf76e8489cabbc2f87292af515\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227377b2cf76e8489cabbc2f87292af515\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for giving a little bit of information about the unified funding scheme (UFS) IT system, but I note you didn\u2019t give a total cost. However, I just want to check with the Minister: are you intending to continue running a dual funding scheme or are you intending to roll out or extend the UFS to degree and above - qualifications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00226434e867dc0044c1b47a644f2d6c65e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226434e867dc0044c1b47a644f2d6c65e7\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E One final question: I\u2019ve had the great chance to attend a unit for teen parents, and in that unit for teen parents there\u2019s some real concern about housing and the dangers that most of those teen parents have living in emergency housing. And I\u2019m wondering whether or not there\u2019s any evidence gathering that\u2019s undertaken across all the teen parent units in the country around the state of play of their housing situation, especially for young women who are 13- and 14-years-olds living in emergency\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00227a320d4f113a4fdbaf548c48ed9f1722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a320d4f113a4fdbaf548c48ed9f1722\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Can I just go back to your\u2014I\u2019ve just found some information on the Melville site. So Melville School: there is an establishment board of trustees (EBOT) in place for the new combined school. The new site will be taken over in January 2024, working with the EBOT on the master plan property, which will inform future property and funding needs. So that\u2019s the establishment board of trustees, is what we\u2019re saying there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00227c7930106a0b4f19859b294bae312465\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c7930106a0b4f19859b294bae312465\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Just with the final few minutes as democratically allocated to me by the Greens in our process for Estimates, I was just wondering, as others have, in pointing out issues in the state of the school buildings at their local schools, if I could just address with the Minister, given this opportunity in the committee to do so\u2014the Minister may be aware of quite a lot of correspondence both with her office as the new fulsome Minister of Education, but also with the former Minister, around issues with the school building portfolio at Richmond Road School, in my electorate of Auckland Central. There\u2019s quite substantive issues there and I want to acknowledge principal Whaea Jacqui for all the work that she\u2019s done, as well as the board of trustees. But I was wondering if the Minister could enlighten the committee or give us any insight or information into just what the hold-up is there. It appears as though the challenge has been a kind of changing of the chairs and the guard constantly with Ministry of Education officials at the front line, which has made it really difficult to get a foothold on how things are progressing with the master plan and requisite investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022d30489ff53684a3fa1668d22424caa79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d30489ff53684a3fa1668d22424caa79\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I have to come back to the member on that one, but can I talk about the higher education funding review; you talked about the dual options there\u2014we will consider a wide range of options, but it won\u2019t be a carbon copy of the unified funding scheme or the review process. So, you know, we haven\u2019t got a set idea there at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022743b0b954fe04859a3b755b4e6b26913\u0022\u003EHousing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d16766b3e3ae40b89c7e8104cf601e70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d16766b3e3ae40b89c7e8104cf601e70\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now have the Minister of Housing. The Minister is available from just before 5 to just before 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd4d5c3083b24488ba10a0c0c4836630\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd4d5c3083b24488ba10a0c0c4836630\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s my pleasure as the chair of the Social Services sand Community Committee to lead off this debate for Vote Housing and Urban Development for the 2023-24 Estimates. The Hon Dr Megan Woods, the Hon Barbara Edmonds, and the Hon Marama Davidson appeared before the select committee to discuss the Vote. Thanks to the Ministers, respective board chairs, chief executive officers, and officials for appearing and responding to written and oral questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Housing is responsible for all appropriations under Vote Housing. The Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, or HUD, administers the Vote. HUD is responsible for the strategy, the policy, funding, monitoring, and regulation of New Zealand\u2019s housing and urban development system. K\u0101inga Ora\u2014Homes and Communities, or KO, manages the public housing estate and their tenancies. KO is also responsible for planning, coordinating, and undertaking housing development to create a mix of public, affordable, and marketing housing, and it administers the Infrastructure Acceleration Fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe most significant change to the Vote is the $5.24 billion increase to the borrowing capacity of KO. In November 2022, the Government announced that KO would no longer be able to borrow money directly from the private market to build and renovate public housing. We asked what analysis had been undertaken of the forecast debt being taken on by KO. The Minister informed us that KO is undertaking very long-term financial planning, looking 60 years ahead to ensure its financial stability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EAs at March 2023, there were 24,000 applicants on the housing register. This is a 7.7\u00A0percent decrease from March 2022. Budget 2023 proposes funding of $1.76 billion to purchase and provide public housing and related support services. The Minister noted that one of the consequences of previous Governments\u2019 selling public housing assets was the loss of affordable rentals on the market. The Government is working with community housing providers, iwi, and councils to increase the supply of affordable rental housing. This is critical to reducing the public housing wait-list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Government aims to have a supply of 81,000-plus public homes by 30 June 2024. The Minister told us she is confident that the Government\u2019s target will be met. She highlighted that through its housing delivery system project, KO is currently averaging 105 days to build new houses. The Minister explained that this is half the time taken for a standard construction. KO is ultimately aiming to reduce construction time to 65 days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EOver the last five Budgets, approximately $1.1 billion has been allocated to M\u0101ori housing. We heard that this funding has increased capacity for M\u0101ori to build houses through M\u0101ori housing providers. This includes preparing M\u0101ori community housing providers to prepare their own land for development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe also heard that about 1.5 percent of KO homes are fully accessible and that it has retrofitted nearly 8,000 homes to make them more accessible. Building contracts from 2021 are being completed now, and she expects the proportion of fully accessible new builds to increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe heard that the Housing Acceleration Fund provides $3.6 billion between years 2021 and 2026 to upgrade infrastructure for housing development. We asked whether these infrastructure upgrades helped to prevent the flood damage in early 2023. The Minister told us that K\u0101inga Ora ensures that its developments account for necessary infrastructure upgrades so that public housing built on flood plains would be more resilient during severe weather events. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Social Services and Community Committee recommends that the appropriations for the year ended 30 June 2024 for Vote Housing and Urban Development be accepted. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221611a20604f74a009a9df52ecca5b60c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221611a20604f74a009a9df52ecca5b60c\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. We had a good session in the Social Services and Community Committee, and I thank the chair of the select committee for that update. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got a number of questions which we\u2019ll canvass in the first hour, but I just want to pick up on something that the chair of the committee said. I think she said that we heard from the Minister that by 2024, the aim was to have 81,000\u2014I think she said 81,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d381f6e272f4594921f10982919e64e\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Approximately\u2014yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f13251b16db44a49879b31234fcbba3\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014approximately 81,000 people in public housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022215336b21170486da919c41ddeb383ac\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: No, 81,000 houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207e3dc3c1d8949a3b15f782f376ae380\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: 81,000 houses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec442688e2442b58ced544ae8db3e8a\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022235872918e0e4b6689a50408e6e78940\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014all right. Well, I was going to ask, if that\u2019s true, why\u2014well, actually, I can ask that because I\u2019m just looking at the Budget documents which we\u2019re examining, which is Vote Housing and Urban Development, at page 111 of the Estimates of Appropriations for the social services and community sector, and the number of tenancies subsidised by income-related rent subsidy (IRRS) will be at least\u2014the Budget standard for 2022-23, so the year just gone, was estimated to be 75,500. The estimated actual was 74,700. The Budget standard for 2023-24, which is the year that the member is talking about, is 77,500. That\u2019s quite a disparity between the 81,000 mentioned by the member and what the Budget actually appropriates. So maybe an initial question for the Minister is: is that 81,000 figure correct, because this the purchase of public housing provision, non-departmental output expenses, and the number of tenancies subsidised by an income-related rent subsidy. So anyway, perhaps we can hear a little more about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other thing I wanted to raise just as an initial starting point was in relation to the emergency housing reset, which was funded in Budget 2022, and it provides, from memory, over $300 million for that. Now, my figures might be slightly out of date, but I asked the Minister a written question around this maybe six weeks or eight weeks or so ago. Very little of that money has so far been drawn down, and the answer I\u2019ve got says that $620,000 has been spent on the reset in the early stage and another $1.6 million contracted. But that was a year or so ago that it was announced\u2014in fact, it\u2019s over a year or so ago, or at least the money was appropriated a year-or-so ago. We had to wait till the end of last year to find out exactly what was happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I suppose there are two questions. The first question is around the IRRS purchase provision, and then the second question is around the emergency housing reset and just what\u2019s happening with that, because not a lot of money has so far been drawn down. A lot of money has been appropriated, but not a lot of money has been drawn down. That\u2019s just an initial starting point. Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002228ecba3b7cfb4eed8d5226157db19ec5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228ecba3b7cfb4eed8d5226157db19ec5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to acknowledge my three colleagues that are in the House and who will also contribute to this debate, I\u2019m sure. We are very much a housing team. The Hon Barbara Edmonds, the Hon Marama Davidson, and the Hon Willie Jackson are incredibly passionate and dedicated Ministers of housing also, and I\u2019d like to thank them for the work they do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn regard to the question that Chris Bishop, the member who\u2019s just taken his seat, has posed around the number 81,000 by 2024, in terms of the number: yes, that is correct. The chair of the select committee was correct. At the moment, just for the member\u2019s edification, as of 30 June 2023, we had 79,539 homes, but of course houses and publicly funded houses are two separate things. One, we\u2019re talking about a physical count\u2014roof count\u2014of houses; the other, we\u2019re talking about households that are attracting income-related rent subsidised (IRRS) funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt is not uncommon for K\u0101inga Ora tenants to move in and out of IRRS eligibility at any given point. It may be seasonal work that underlies that in terms of their income and where that sits. So, of course, there will also be houses that are vacant because they are undergoing repair or retrofit. Also, the people that I\u2019ve talked about that are earning enough, of course they\u2019re earning enough to not attract\u2014the IRRS is not a fixed point in time. It can differ over a period of over a year or over a matter of months for people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the emergency housing reset, the member is correct. On 12 December 2022, Cabinet agreed to improvements to the emergency housing system. That was the reset and redesign work, and that is providing a pathway to achieving the Government\u2019s long-term vision, with 10 actions over 12 to 18 months. This is obviously a package of work that has a large intersection with Minister Davidson\u2019s work stream, with her being the Associate Minister that is responsible for the Homelessness Action Plan and for the work that the Government is undertaking to address homelessness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe have seen very much the need for this work to be place-based. We have identified the need for us to be working with local councils, local community groups, and local iwi to make sure that we\u2019ve got those emergency settings fit for purpose for the places that we are working in. So developing regional delivery plans is absolutely critical to getting those alternatives to the emergency housing special needs grant accommodation right, and then, of course, those points that have been identified are Hamilton City and Wellington, where we know that there is need for us to do that. But we are determined to make sure that we are doing that in a way that makes sense for those regions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfa51a0ac4c34714a2f1e3e27ceca840\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfa51a0ac4c34714a2f1e3e27ceca840\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for those answers. This raises a slightly interesting issue, which is what is the Government\u2019s intention when it comes to tenancy reviews, because the reality is there are around 2,500 people in K\u0101inga Ora houses\u2014and, indeed, in community housing provider houses too, actually\u2014who pay market rents. They earn enough that they can afford to pay market rents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFrom memory, I have an answer from the Minister from, I think, a year or so ago saying that tenancy reviews had been paused during COVID\u2014which I think is fair enough\u2014and that no decision had yet been made on restarting them. I think it is true that between 2018 and 2019, there was a process of tenancy reviews. So I wonder if the Minister could give us an update on tenancy reviews and what the Government\u2019s intention is in relation to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022301798a2d379402ea8e4f90096f051ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022301798a2d379402ea8e4f90096f051ce\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. That is work that the Government is undertaking at the moment about how and where you\u2019d restart those tenancy reviews, and you can look to particular cohorts within that. Obviously, that was work that did need to stop during COVID for a number of reasons, not least of all the capacity of the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) staff in terms of the fact that we had a number of calls on our MSD staff and reviewing tenancies wasn\u2019t the highest priority during that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut Ministers, including the Associate Minister for Social Development who has responsibility for the waiting list, the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2014we have been talking amongst Ministers around how it is that we\u2019d get that process of the tenancy review started. For us as Ministers, that is absolutely critical, because if we have tenants who are living in K\u0101inga Ora homes and earning too much to qualify for the income-related rent subsidy, they of course, by legislation, are not eligible to apply for the accommodation supplement, so the family could indeed be worse off than if they were in the private market and were eligible for an accommodation supplement. So this is work that is under way at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1281acc213946bd84d07a13f4a77f01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1281acc213946bd84d07a13f4a77f01\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister. This is a slightly more local matter, which I raised in the Parliament last week to the Associate Minister Priyanca Radhakrishnan. It goes to Ministry of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) funding for homelessness support services, and it may be that the question is better directed at the Hon Marama Davidson. It goes to the Wellington homeless women\u2019s shelter, which I think Ministers and members will be well familiar with. They have told me that they applied for funding for four more beds through HUD and that their funding request was declined on the basis that HUD doesn\u2019t fund homeless facilities or homeless shelters that have communal facilities, and it just struck me as very odd. I mean, the Minister has made reference to the dire need for emergency housing in Wellington. We\u2019re all familiar with that, and the stats speak for themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I was very surprised to hear that from the Wellington Homeless Women\u2019s Trust. Is that actually HUD policy and, if so, why is that HUD policy? If it is HUD policy, will the Minister seek to change it, because the reality is that communal facilities are common in many shelters around the country, and if that\u2019s the new policy then I think, frankly, we\u2019re going to have some difficulty. Given that $100 million or so was appropriated in last year\u2019s Budget for the Homelessness Action Plan and given they\u2019ve only asked for four more beds, can we get that money out the door and provide those services? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u002298a27da8b50b488d804a2e8c5627026e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298a27da8b50b488d804a2e8c5627026e\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Associate Minister of Housing (Homelessness)):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much, and thank you for the question. It was alerted to me as well as to the member, and it\u2019s something I\u2019m seeking advice on. What I do know is that all current transitional housing situations that do still have the communal shared spaces of course will be honoured. So I\u2019m just making that clear that we are not going to wind down or remove current communal transitional housing places, and that, yes, I am seeking further guidance and clarity from the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) around this proposed new way of working. About the funding that\u2019s available for transitional housing, I was proud that in both Budget 2022 and Budget 2023, we were able to, for example, extend more supported housing and rangatahi transitional housing. But I\u2019m seeking further advice from HUD officials around the proposal. It\u2019s an operational matter\u2014yes\u2014but I am seeking advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWhat I do want to speak to genuinely\u2014and Minister Woods has already touched on this\u2014is that we absolutely need to see more community-led and community-supported housing initiatives and leadership. I am proud that the Government\u2014even just today\u2014has been continuing to announce and lead more places available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EBut I really want to acknowledge the work of the Wellington Homeless Women\u2019s Trust. I acknowledge the unique support that they offer to women in the community, particularly, and it\u2019s fantastic. I want to understand more broadly\u2014not just within transitional housing funding and criteria\u2014how we can support and see more of this community leadership to help us all resolve the homelessness problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022b003fa5c54bb4b90ac896b0ec4ef2442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b003fa5c54bb4b90ac896b0ec4ef2442\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Now, this Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga kaupapa, it\u2019s a beautiful kaupapa. He ataahua te kaupapa, ataahua rawa. [This initiative is beautiful; just amazing.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard of about 1,018 homes being contracted through $213 million of funding, and that\u2019s come through the written questions and some of the oral parliamentary questions that I\u2019ve asked and had answered by the Associate Minister. I\u2019m just trying to understand what are the ownership arrangements for each of those homes, how many will be sold to individual wh\u0101nau, and, if they are sold, are the moneys received recycled through Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga? Of those that aren\u2019t owned, what are the arrangements that attach to those? Is that income-related rent subsidy - funded and entity-owned, like one of the four iwi prototypes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4c0a9ca9662417ea211eb697cbc80fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4c0a9ca9662417ea211eb697cbc80fa\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Tama Potaka for the question, and I understand that he has made a commitment to M\u0101ori housing, particularly before he came to Parliament. So I certainly understand his support and his commitment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EA lot of what the member talks about, though, is still being worked through by the various entities. We\u2019ve got, as he well knows, four very, very strong entities in the North and on the East Coast. We\u2019ve got Ka Uruora in Taranaki, led by Jamie Tuuta; Toit\u016B Tair\u0101whiti, with Willie Te Aho, and our lady down there, Annette; Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, led by Bayden Barber; and Te Pouahi o Te Taitokerau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESome of the questions that the member asked are on some of the strategies that these trusts are traversing and working through. There\u2019s a lot to take into account. As he knows, there are a lot of obstacles in front of M\u0101ori housing providers, so the absolute intricacies on how they roll things out are not finalised. The reality also, as he knows, is that 63 house are built, but the target is 1,000, as he also knows, but within that there are multiple strategies that are being worked out in terms of wh\u0101nau, in terms of ownership, and in terms of iwi and who moves in, and the different protocols around that. So much of what\u2019s been put forward is fear from that member, but there\u2019s still a lot to be worked out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022e44ef12ed62d4d45991fb0376afc9216\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e44ef12ed62d4d45991fb0376afc9216\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E In that Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga kaupapa there\u2019s a repairs programme which, actually, I absolutely applaud. That\u2019s a great programme, fixing up houses that are falling over all the way in far-flung places like Te Tair\u0101whiti and the Whanganui River. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EBut the Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga prototypes are with four different iwi-led organisations, which are, effectively, start-ups in the housing space. I wanted to inquire with the Minister and Associate Minister whether or not there was an attempt to activate Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga, and also with those existing iwi\u2014particularly, urban iwi in Auckland\u2014and M\u0101ori groups that are already involved in building housing en masse, where I think that there\u2019d be more opportunity to accelerate the numbers of houses that are built for iwi and other communities by iwi and M\u0101ori builders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5954380969646e59693e1f538bc8349\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5954380969646e59693e1f538bc8349\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to say that through the sterling leadership of Minister Jackson, we no longer need to do prototypes. Actually, we have moved beyond prototypes and we can just get on with the mahi of, for the first time, there being a Government commitment\u2014and a billion-dollar commitment\u2014to sit behind that, around how it is that we address issues around M\u0101ori housing. In terms of where that will spread to throughout the country, there\u2019s a lot of work under way in various locations, and there are different capacities in different places, ranging right from being incredibly good commercial property developers in some iwi organisations, through to what can be done in papak\u0101inga housing and on whenua M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I think the member asked in his previous question\u2014just to add to the very full answer that Minister Jackson gave\u2014is that at the moment, there actually isn\u2019t the provision of income-related rent subsidy public housing within the Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga developments, as far as I\u2019m aware, because the aspirations of those iwi and those groups that have come to us are actually to do things differently than that. That is not what they have sought to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe are looking at how it is that we can service M\u0101ori communities right through from the work that Minister Davidson is leading in homelessness. But the clear aspiration of so many groups we talked to is \u201CWhat can we do to enable homeownership?\u201D, and that is also a very important string to the bow. What we have in here is the progressive homeownership scheme that is ring-fenced for M\u0101ori, because if we\u2019re going to shift rates of homeownership for M\u0101ori and for Pasifika, we do need to have dedicated funding pathways, and that is exactly what this Government has done. So affordable rentals are very much what is being seen within a number of the prototypes, but homeownership sits at the heart of the aspiration of many of these communities, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m proud to be a member of a Government that for the first time in New Zealand\u2019s history is backing just that aspiration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00229534b6a3e40b4fc0817d51a8e3be1e98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229534b6a3e40b4fc0817d51a8e3be1e98\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wish to raise an issue about the Government\u2019s debt and Government loans. In the Estimates, it suggests that this year, the Government will give over $5 billion in loans to K\u0101inga Ora, which is money to build. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI want to turn to an article that came out a year ago, and it said that this Minister, under the Government, was \u201Cwarned not to grant any future Budget bids to \u2026 K\u0101inga Ora for a time, after fears of unsustainable debt levels. A leaked document from the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development showed spiralling construction costs cause a debt blowout at K\u0101inga Ora, with fears that\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba7b3906818b4655b89a28562e59c96f\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s public\u2014it\u2019s not leaked. It\u2019s been public for a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293ae33b9acb9465ea1fb391496aade51\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Cthe Government will be unable to completely repay the increase in debt over the next 60 years.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EIs it acceptable, Minister, that this Government, with a warning about increasing debt levels, has signed off on $5 billion of loans to K\u0101inga Ora, when we know that it\u2019s unsustainable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00222c377e5d901b44d59d52fad8cd519946\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c377e5d901b44d59d52fad8cd519946\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019m happy to take a short call on that. I do actually agree with the Opposition member Chris Bishop that it\u2019s very hard to call a document that\u2019s sitting on the department\u2019s website \u201Cleaked\u201D. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anything particularly furtive about that document, and that is somewhat of a misrepresentation of that document as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut I do just want to address this issue of the lending for K\u0101inga Ora, because it did change, and it was discussed at this Estimates hearing that of course the debt was transferred back into the net core Crown debt. The reason for that is actually the ability to get a better interest rate so that we can save money for the Crown by bringing in and structuring the debt in the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI just want to put some perspective into the comments that the ACT spokesperson for housing has just brought in about that K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s borrowing of $5.2 billion, added to what it is already\u2014in terms of its existing debt, it will be around $9 billion. Now, this is obviously a large debt, but I want to put this into the perspective of what the balance sheet of K\u0101inga Ora is. This is an organisation that owns an awfully large amount of property and an awfully large amount of houses, and it has $260 billion in total assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo if we have a look at the debt-to-equity ratio of the organisation, we can see that, actually, it is in a very good health, at 3.5 percent. If you stacked K\u0101inga Ora up against the similar agencies globally that you\u2019d put it against in terms of debt-to-equity ratio looks like, you\u2019d actually see that K\u0101inga Ora still has a lot of headroom if you put it next to its comparator agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the document that the member is talking about, she\u2019s actually talking about a very long-term piece of planning that I kicked off as Minister by saying: what does the financial future of K\u0101inga Ora look like in 50 or 60 years? How do we manage the long-term financial sustainability of an organisation that for too many years has been a political football in terms of its funding? We haven\u2019t seen the adding of public housing, we haven\u2019t seen the maintenance of the existing asset base, and one of the things that I know is that our operational costs at the moment within K\u0101inga Ora are higher than they would have been if the previous decade had actually had a maintenance programme on its homes. The cost of maintaining an unrenovated retrofitted house is far higher than maintaining one that has been retrofitted or, indeed, that has been redeveloped and is a new build. You carry a far greater operating burden on your balance sheet as an owner of property in those circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAlso, one of the things that I wanted to address in looking at that financial sustainability piece is the way that K\u0101inga Ora, or Housing New Zealand, was treated as a cash-flow machine. There was over half a billion dollars\u2019 worth of dividends that were extracted from the organisation between 2008 and 2017, so not only was there nil investment; there actually was an extraction of half a billion dollars\u2019 worth of money that could have been reinvested back into redeveloping or maintaining or building new houses. But it wasn\u2019t; it was put in to pay for other things in the consolidated account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why, as a responsible Minister of Housing, I was keen to look at what the financial sustainability of that organisation looks like over that 60-year time horizon. But I do acknowledge that this set of accounts that we\u2019re seeing in this Budget is the first time that we\u2019ve seen the transfer of that debt back into net core Crown debt, so it looks a little bit different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u002205d3f00aafca47b1a82886cccd374d92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205d3f00aafca47b1a82886cccd374d92\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I really enjoyed those comments around the aspiration for ownership, particularly across wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori, and using the progressive home ownership (PHO) pathway\u2014that specific M\u0101ori PHO pathway. I\u2019m interested to understand how many wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori eventually accessed and used the PHO pathway for homeownership? That\u2019s the first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe other one is a pivot towards the income-related rent subsidy (IRRS), which is quite a topical one, and it was mentioned in the select committee recently. There are 27 of 81 community housing providers (CHPs) which are M\u0101ori CHPs, but only two of them have around 100 or more IRRS places. I\u2019m wondering what are the messages that the ministerial team\u2014the tag team\u2014are giving to those M\u0101ori CHPs in order to access greater numbers of IRRS places, because they\u2019ve had to go through that quite strenuous process of becoming CHPs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00228d561a94795c401f88bc2e462ab27ff4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d561a94795c401f88bc2e462ab27ff4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to take a first crack at that, and I\u2019m sure Minister Jackson will want to follow up. The reason why those by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori community housing providers (CHPs) have such low numbers of income-related rent subsidy (IRRS) places is because they didn\u2019t exist until our Government was elected, because ours was the first time that we actually had backed the aspirations of M\u0101ori organisations to have these by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn fact, in our first few years in Government, we spent a lot of energy, time, and resource building capacity for a number of very strong iwi and M\u0101ori organisations to actually become CHPs so they could be in this position. So I want to see those numbers grow. I wish it had been done the decade previously, by a previous Government\u2014that we had had M\u0101ori aspiration backed in that way, rather than just left and nothing done about it. So we do want to see that grow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the progressive home ownership (PHO) numbers, Minister Jackson may be able to fill us in on the detail, but I\u2019d just like to reiterate the conversation that we had at select committee. We could have filled the PHO numbers by having by P\u0101keh\u0101, for M\u0101ori solutions. We could have had existing community housing providers be the providers that offered those progressive home ownership options for M\u0101ori. We could have had a number of organisations that wanted to do it, and we could have taken them up on that offer. But, instead, what this Government has been committed to is working with our M\u0101ori providers to build the capacity for them to be the organisations that work with their communities to fulfil that aspiration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo I think we know that in order to build the capacity in the CHP sector so that we could get the hundreds of houses that that receive IRRS funding, we had to be prepared to put in the work. I commend the work that Minister Jackson is doing to work with those organisations to make sure that we can have these solutions, which make sense in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00228b668dbfe1f64f77b15f61479d8f16a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b668dbfe1f64f77b15f61479d8f16a0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E Can I just tautoko what our Minister of Housing has said. I commend her, plus other Ministers and this Government, in terms of what we have been attempting to do over five years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EAs that member Tama Potaka well knows, as he\u2019s been very involved\u2014and I commend him again. Over the years, he has been trying very hard to get our people into the game\u2014and that\u2019s what you\u2019re saying, Minister. We have not been in the game. We\u2019ve had community providers who\u2019ve been shut out altogether, so that member quite rightly points to the minimal amount of providers. But it\u2019s hard for our providers to even get the status to get the credibility, so I just am so proud of the work that this Minister has done and that this Government has done in terms of actually going down the path of a by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori strategy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI re-emphasise the Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga strategy as one of the most brilliant strategies we have ever seen in terms of housing and M\u0101ori housing in the history of this Parliament. I say that because in past years\u2014I\u2019ve just come on as a M\u0101ori Housing Minister in the last year. But in past years, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri (TPK) was always separate in terms of our Ministry of Housing. So Te Puni K\u014Dkiri used to just do repairs, fix up this, and fix up that; we had Ministry of Housing who were doing their thing; and we just did not have a coordinated and comprehensive strategy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga strategy brings together the two entities, and why is that good? It\u2019s because you have M\u0101ori officials working with their P\u0101keh\u0101 colleagues in terms of the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development helping them out in terms of the intricacies with regards to housing M\u0101ori, because in terms of housing M\u0101ori, you\u2019re not just talking about a house; you\u2019re talking about a community, you\u2019re talking about whakapapa, and you\u2019re talking about wh\u0101nau. So Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga in 2021, when we came up with $700 million in terms of investment\u2014it was absolutely unprecedented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe member asks quite appropriate questions, but at the same time he must remember what we\u2019ve already put in place, and we want to build on that. So we built on that $700\u00A0million by adding another $200 million in the latest Budget in terms of Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga, which is about getting our people into houses all around the country, but we\u2019re not just looking at the repairs side of things, which was the case very much with TPK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud of the coordinated, comprehensive strategy we now have, and we want the flow-on to happen into the areas that that member quite rightly points out. So I thank him for his question. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e416074abcb74cb68450f2e3e9172007\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e416074abcb74cb68450f2e3e9172007\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E A question to the Minister in the chair. During our report back and during the hearing, we heard in relation to an imminent announcement in Auckland that was coming. I would be interested for you to talk to us about that, Minister, but I would also be really interested to know about the difference in this model that is being delivered. So I\u2019m interested about the development in terms of its size, in terms of its services, and I\u2019m also interested in the community engagement and the process around that and perhaps around how the community is looking towards this launch. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4518c9007f342f0abb0ba618dd81092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4518c9007f342f0abb0ba618dd81092\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I think there\u2019s two developments in Auckland that are quite different and worth just giving a little bit of information about. One that I think is a particularly exciting development is at Highbury Triangle. This is a very large development of several hundred apartments, but it is dedicated housing for our older New Zealanders\u2014for people that are in the position of needing to rent in their retirement\u2014and how is it that we can provide warm, safe shelter for these people. It\u2019s four stories, I believe\u2014just off the top of my head\u2014but it has lift access, so all of the units within this are universal design so that it is suitable for our elderly population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think it is incredibly important that when we think about our public housing as our population ages, we think about how we make it fit for purpose for those older New Zealanders. I\u2019d just like to put a plug in for a similar development in my own electorate, in the Wigram electorate. This was opened a couple of weeks ago. It\u2019s a 20-unit development. It has solar panels on the roof. It is 20 units. It\u2019s three stories, but, again, has lift access so that all of them can be of a fully universal design. But five of those units also have an extra bed\u2014they\u2019re one-bedroom units, but five of them have an extra bedroom for any carers that need sleepover capacity for the over-50s for whom the complex is reserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e21b6aa7cf9481fb677aca9babaef6b\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Over 50s?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246c8e433be784e7ba9403d68a838051c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I know\u2014frightening as that is to the chair of the select committee. So we can see that there are new ways of thinking about public housing and how we can make this really fit for purpose for our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think that once you start building at scale, like this Government is\u2014when you are building the most public houses and adding the most public houses of any Government since the 1950s\u2014you can start thinking about exactly the kind of housing that your community needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other one, of course, is Greys Avenue, which is a housing development that has been going on in that part of Auckland for some time now, and that is going to have intensive, wraparound support for those tenants that will be there. It very much echoes a complex that Ministers Edmonds and Davidson and I were at this morning in terms of the opening here in Wellington of a development in Rolleston Street. It\u2019s an 80-unit development, and 20 of them are intensively supported housing with live-in support for care workers. So we can start to think about how it is that we do those things differently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00224779203e988b44728ab253d55ed31f67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224779203e988b44728ab253d55ed31f67\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My question is actually for Minister Davidson around the Homelessness Action Plan. We had an exchange in the House a couple of months ago or so, in which we were talking about the $100 million appropriated in Budget 2022. Very little of that money has been spent, and I want to know from the Minister what is the barrier in getting the money out the door. I can see she\u2019s rising to her feet, but just give me 30 seconds, Minister, to make my point, which is that I know, as she does, that we are passionate about ending homelessness in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s basic point a while ago seemed to be that the programmes had to be designed, that it was very important that we do bottom-up initiatives, and that people have got to be involved in the design of them, and that\u2019s all well and good and that\u2019s important to some extent. But a year later, people actually just want the money out the door, and there are variety of different programmes that are working well already. I think of VisionWest Community Trust, and I think of the Wellington Homeless Women\u2019s Trust, which we\u2019ve had a discussion about. So what is the barrier in getting the cash out the door to families and communities that need it? That\u2019s the first point that maybe the Minister can respond to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u002235f211afac084a34baa3b500ff386dbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235f211afac084a34baa3b500ff386dbd\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Associate Minister of Housing (Homelessness)):\u003C/span\u003E I do genuinely thank the member for that question because it allows me to reiterate, once again, that the three initiatives that haven\u2019t yet fully contracted out are brand-spanking-new initiatives that are a completely different way of working from what this Government has ever seen and they do absolutely rely on a relational way of working between the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and the community leadership group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWhat I would impress upon the member is to not think of equating the progress with the actual contracting system of Government. So for all of the work that needs to be happening behind He Ara Hiki Mauri, which is that the actual funds have already been devolved out to Te Matapihi and Arohanui ki te T\u0101ngata\u2014so those are M\u0101ori and community housing networks working together\u2014that has been devolved out, and then, from there, they are leading the design and the authority to then further contract out the services. They are still designing that, but that heads of agreement has already been signed and it is sitting with the M\u0101ori authority\u2014the M\u0101ori organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWith the supported housing and rangatahi youth space\u2014oh my goodness, we have never done this before. I am closely connected with the providers, who are going to be delivering this completely new service in a completely different way, and the progress is absolutely happening in the way it should be happening. I have met with those providers who are already tagged for being able to do this work, and just only a few days ago, so I\u2019m closely linked in. We are working with those with rangatahi expertise who are going to deliver the supported rangatahi part of the Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWith the outreach part of the Budget, we have actually already announced and contracted in, for example, the member\u2019s community, at K\u014Dkiri Marae, and also Whang\u0101rei. So the work is happening, and they have been helping us to continue that work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThen, with the rangatahi transitional housing\u2014my goodness! Again, we\u2019ve been able to\u2014actually, because that was an already existing initiative, we\u2019ve been able to almost fully make sure that that Budget funding is either provisionally allocated or contracted, or has been spent already. But that\u2019s, again, because it is an existing initiative that is set up, ready to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really proud that a Government is attempting and doing new ways of working. The work for those three new ways of working is happening. We need to not confuse contracting money and spending money to equate with \u201Cthe work isn\u2019t happening\u201D. The work is absolutely progressing, and it is going to be delivered by the community, who have designed it. I think this Government needs to be really proud of that progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00229eb8f17b277b4426a1888ad347b5441a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eb8f17b277b4426a1888ad347b5441a\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we can agree to disagree. But, with respect, contracting\u2019s one thing, but getting money out the door is another thing, and, actually, the work doesn\u2019t happen unless you spend the money. So anyway\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294c771133b744593b8dce2dc256993cd\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: No, I disagree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244770ccc3ad54f33be1be5548a6fb593\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, work\u2019s fine, but unless people are actually being paid to look after people who are in need, then there\u2019s not a lot of point in doing it. So anyway, I\u2019d just make that as an aside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMy colleague Tama Potaka has some other questions, but I just wanted to ask the Ministers generally: what work, if any, is being done on housing for prisoners who leave prison? I think one of the great disgraces of New Zealand public policy is that people who leave prison far too often go into insecure housing, and that is a big contributor and driver of their ending up back in prison. The wider issue of course is we need to build more houses\u2014that of course is fundamental\u2014but clearly there is a massive social need around prisoners who finish their sentence and exit prison and who, unfortunately, far too often end up in emergency housing motels, sometimes with people they\u2019ve been in prison with. They\u2019re placed in vulnerable situations in which they\u2019re subject to temptation and they end up committing crime and end up back in prison. The cycle repeats, and it\u2019s a disgrace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI think there is a need for the Crown, for central government, to step up and provide more support there. So I\u2019d just ask Ministers what work or what programmes, if any, are specifically targeted\u2014not just generally homelessness, but specifically targeted\u2014at easing that transition from prison back into the community? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u002228fb44cd580b4195964aa525e9c6e9db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228fb44cd580b4195964aa525e9c6e9db\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Associate Minister of Housing (Homelessness)):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I am so pleased to hear the member pushing for and recognising the needs of people coming out of prison, and can I also add to the member\u2019s radar, for example, returned overseas offenders. So I want to highlight the Homelessness Action Plan actions, where we have been able to add more support for, particularly, women leaving prison\u2014now, that was of one the actions, which is 26 women supporting 26 women\u2014and also returned overseas offenders, 41 of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ECan I also add to the member\u2019s radar that transitioning out of acute mental health units is another of those areas where I welcome the members\u2019 collective support to build public mandate that we need to get more housing for these very groups of people who are actually, more readily than not, dehumanised and are rejected from having support in housing. But we should look at this as criminal reoffending prevention, we should look at this as violence prevention, and we should look at this as health or disability prevention, or mental illness prevention. I do agree with the member that we absolutely need more of that specific support, and I hope he continues to prioritise that among his own colleagues as well. But I did want to give the member those updates on where we have made progress in those areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd18d3ae32344484a6ba5632493b07cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd18d3ae32344484a6ba5632493b07cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Just to add to that, there\u2019s obviously the very important work that\u2019s happening under the auspices of the Homelessness Action Plan in relation to women prisoners. But there is also within the emergency housing review a cross-agency group that not only brings in the Department of Corrections but also brings in the Ministry of Health, which I think is critical. We need to be thinking about mental health and addiction as well as corrections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut I would like to see this as an area where we could develop a little bit more of a multipartisan conversation about this, because I think all too often there is a demonisation of the rehousing of people and how they reintegrate back into the community. I think that\u2019s something that we see all too often in our communities, and it\u2019s something that I strongly believe as a local MP it is our job to leadership on, rather than stirring up those embers of hate that can be there that do stop people successfully reintegrating, whether that is from mental health, that is from addiction, or indeed, if that is someone building a life outside of prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut housing also has the ability to be part of that rehabilitation for our prisoners. I think this week we\u2019ve seen that wonderful story coming out of Rolleston Prison in Canterbury, and I know that I\u2019ve been there with Minister Davidson to visit some of the young men that are learning a trade in prison so that when they get released, they\u2019re actually going to be part of solving our housing crisis. They won\u2019t just be a statistic in the housing crisis; they\u2019ll actually be people with the skills and the qualifications and the trades that actually will be building houses for other people to be warm, safe, and dry in. So that is work that I would like to draw the House\u2019s attention to, because I think it is something we can all celebrate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022029fbbe84f394decbe9b7d6875449730\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022029fbbe84f394decbe9b7d6875449730\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E I want to thank that member for that observation and for that question. It\u2019s really important, that type of question, that type of challenge, for all of us in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EUnder the previous Key Government, my own organisation had set up houses for prisoners and it had support, and I want to acknowledge that because it was one of the hardest things that I had ever done as a community CEO. As you know, Tama Potaka, at our marae at Ng\u0101 Whare Waatea, we had Zac Wallace, who was a former inmate\u2014a long-time inmate\u2014and his wife, Deidre Nehua, who ran the strategy in terms of reintegrating these prisoners back into society, and we had whole streets, Mr Bishop, who would turn on us because we were trying to reintegrate these prisoners back into society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt was a major kaupapa and it remains a major kaupapa for our organisations. My mother was a Parole Board member for 20 years, and it was one of her major commitments in terms of the reintegration of these prisoners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI think that it transcends a party, so I think that all parties can come together on this. I thank the member for his observation and the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022752eaf396db749a5b392668908590d86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022752eaf396db749a5b392668908590d86\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d be keen to ask the Minister a brief question about the large-scale programme work, which is a significant part of the investment profile in the Estimates and a key part of providing more houses across our public and market provision. What I\u2019m particularly interested in in my question is the fact that within the large-scale projects (LSPs), the Government is not just building houses; it is redeveloping whole communities. One of the questions that people often have is, well, what about the infrastructure that goes alongside that and whether it is going to be sufficient to deal with the various challenges that we face, and I wonder if the Minister could talk to us a little bit about what we are seeing in terms of the performance of those LSPs that are substantially complete or a long way along the track in respect of the extreme weather earlier this year and the performance of the infrastructure that was put in there. I think that\u2019s important in terms of looking ahead as these developments go forward, to ensure that people have confidence that they\u2019re going to be up to scratch to face those challenges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0171b092bfb4ace8d259e5049472eed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0171b092bfb4ace8d259e5049472eed\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member Michael Woods for the question. So our large-scale projects that are happening across several suburbs in Auckland and, of course, in Minister Edmonds\u2019 own suburb of Porirua are areas where not only is K\u0101inga Ora investing in the upgrade of infrastructure but central government is directly also\u2014for the first time, really, since the 1970s\u2014through the Infrastructure Acceleration Fund, going in and doing quite large-scale upgrades of the infrastructure in these communities and neighbourhoods. Indeed, in the electorate of the member who asked the question, in some of the shovel-ready projects, some of those early projects were stormwater upgrades in Roskill that had already been completed, and we\u2019re seeing the benefits of that and we certainly did in the floods earlier this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think if we look at Northcote, if we look at Roskill, and we look at M\u0101ngere and at how those areas performed in those devastating floods, we can see the proof of the pudding. We had Northcote, which had been an area where the town centre had traditionally flooded and would have in an equivalent event in Auckland, but we saw that it had drained within 15 hours. The retention of the water in the stormwater provisioning that was there meant that that was a community that didn\u2019t suffer the same consequences. Likewise, in parts of Roskill where we\u2019ve done those upgrades\u2014and the member will be well aware of these in his own electorate\u2014we saw the ability of the infrastructure to cope with that extreme weather having been sufficiently improved, and likewise in M\u0101ngere as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo we need to be thinking several things when we\u2019re making decisions about where it is that we build our houses. When we\u2019re building for climate change, we need to think about what we\u2019re building and we need to think about where we\u2019re building it. But in terms of where we\u2019re building it, we need to think about that ability of the existing infrastructure to cope or we need to think about what we need to be investing to ensure that we are upgrading it, and of course we also need to be ensuring that we know that we\u2019re not building on sites that are going to become increasingly untenable as we continue through the decades of this century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00222fe6117588144bb491c5878918b83801\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fe6117588144bb491c5878918b83801\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Three questions\u2014a couple of them are related, and one of them is pretty random. I asked a question before in the education session that actually was tied in with housing, and that\u2019s around the teen units at various high schools. These young mums are between 13 and 17 or 18 years old, but many of them are living in very exposed housing situations\u2014very dangerous housing situations. In the one that I visited, they were saying, basically, that 80 percent lived in emergency housing, and of that 80 percent, about 60 percent of them were at risk. So I\u2019m wondering what priority the Government is giving to those young mothers across teen units throughout the country around their housing needs\u2014that\u2019s the first one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe second one is that the reports on emergency housing special needs grants that are issued by Ministry of Social Development acknowledge that, stating that there are about 7,500 adults and children in emergency homes right now, or who receive those sorts of grants. But there\u2019s actually nothing reported on the stats for Rotorua, and I wonder, given the hype and the concentration on Rotorua, when will those stats be made available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe third and final one is around K\u0101inga Ora and the many and various majestic developers that are out there that are building on behalf of K\u0101inga Ora and building to the needs of K\u0101inga Ora, and we had the situation last week where some of those homes were, unfortunately, set afire, set ablaze. I\u2019m just trying to understand, through the Minister or the Associate Ministers, whether or not you\u2019re comfortable with the level of risk assessment vis-\u00E0-vis community stakeholder engagement on where and how those projects are being built. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EKia ora. Three questions\u2014thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc855f785d2544bb9856f8a6774d4ce1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc855f785d2544bb9856f8a6774d4ce1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to address them. In terms of the issue around youth homelessness, that of course is an absolute focus of the work that Minister Davidson is leading around how it is that we can have facilities that are catering towards youth homelessness. I visited in Hamilton some wonderful new developments that are catering very much\u2014well, only for youth in transitional housing and how it is that we can set these young people up. They\u2019re often young women, as you say, with children. We can set them on a path to have sustained tenancies throughout their lives, though my hope is that they can even one day move into a position where they can consider homeownership as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe see likewise that our Government has backed Sue Bagshaw\u2019s Youth Hub development in Christchurch, which is going to be a game-changer. So in youth homelessness, for the first time, having specific facilities to deal with that very real issue has been a focus for our Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of Rotorua, I draw the member Tama Potaka to this very useful dashboard, which is published monthly and has been for about six or seven months now. It is published on the Ministry of Social Development website, I believe, and it gives exactly the data that the member is looking for. So this is something for a period of time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c15b7220586148528ff24ce629a5ed26\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: It excludes Rotorua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247bb0a3ccf6f4d4d97f2c5a402351731\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is just about Rotorua, Mr Bishop. It is the Rotorua emergency housing report, which goes into various aspects of it. So that is just about Rotorua, for those that are desperate for the data on Rotorua, and we\u2019re producing this for a very real reason, which is because we want to chart and measure the progress that we are making in Rotorua by taking a very place-based approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the consultation that K\u0101inga Ora does with its communities, I think we can see that it differs from development to development, depending on the development. Where it\u2019s a large-scale project, we set up site offices and we spend months and actually, indeed, years working with local communities around what that development looks like. What we see is that sometimes K\u0101inga Ora will buy a development off the developer after it\u2019s built. In terms of how it is that we deal with communities depends on the nature of what the development is and the way in which it\u2019s coming on stream. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut, again, I reiterate, just as we did in the previous discussion, that if all of us wanted to solve a housing crisis, every person in this House has a job to do of showing leadership around the need for public housing to be placed somewhere. I get too many letters from members of this House complaining about public housing coming to their neighbourhoods, and it\u2019s always something that brings despair to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00223d328657d58440fa83f5709cb3e7f630\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d328657d58440fa83f5709cb3e7f630\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: We have two more minutes for this debate. If anyone else has any comments or questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022681757a24e98443aa66694736584765b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022681757a24e98443aa66694736584765b\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019ve got one more question. A very quick question: has the Minister sought some advice on the Auckland Future Development Strategy, which\u2014I know it sounds like quite a random question. But I think there\u2019s quite a degree of concern from many in the community that the strategy\u2014which is, basically, going to constrain Auckland\u2019s growth\u2014is going to have quite negative effects on house prices and, therefore, rents and affordability. It\u2019s been slipped through a little bit surreptitiously. There\u2019s not a lot of consultation going on and there\u2019s quite a degree of concern about it, so I just want to put that on the Minister\u2019s radar and ask if she is she aware of it. Has she sought some advice on it, and what are they going to do about it, if anything?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00227d6b757069844feea9dedcddcd7bcc46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d6b757069844feea9dedcddcd7bcc46\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E We have what in another country would be called a city deal with Auckland. We have these in six places around New Zealand where we have set them up, where we have set up these growth partnerships that bring together multiple arms of Government, as well as iwi and councils in local areas. We often look to make those sub-regional. So, in the case of my own home town, it is greater Christchurch. We\u2019re bringing Waimakariri and Selwyn into that conversation as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s not a matter of seeking advice and hearing about plans. This is an ongoing relationship that we have with Auckland City through our Urban Growth Partnership in terms of working through those issues. I think that our Government has managed to move the model beyond hearing about things from councils, seeking advice, and then going back to them, because we have looked to establish partnerships and to work in concert. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EA big part of a partnership is, actually, that you don\u2019t have to agree on everything, but then you can work through to find solutions, and that is exactly what we\u2019re doing. We\u2019re doing it in Tauranga through the Smart Growth partnership, we\u2019re doing it along the Auckland-Hamilton corridor, we\u2019re doing it in Auckland, we\u2019re doing it in Hamilton, we\u2019re doing it in Christchurch, and we\u2019re doing it in Queenstown. I think that in six years, the fact that we\u2019ve set up, essentially, what other countries would call these city deals and that they\u2019re well under way and that we have actually managed to group together funding so that we can start to have conversations across the various arms of local government, central government, and iwi about how that works is of benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1f41515e0fe4f459bad0365c9eb2b72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1f41515e0fe4f459bad0365c9eb2b72\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, members. That concludes our debate on housing. The time has come for me to leave the Chair. I will resume the Chair at 7.30 p.m., after the dinner break. Ka kite an\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222554aec7192048fca9b8eb81e3c4fadf\u0022\u003EHealth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffc8cbc1199241239d39260f5dc9436c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffc8cbc1199241239d39260f5dc9436c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the sitting is resumed for the Estimates debate. We now have the Minister of Health, and the Minister is available from 7.30 until 8.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00226c7c1e7932f0487fbcae6528c49f28e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c7c1e7932f0487fbcae6528c49f28e1\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Chairperson of the Health Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Kia orana. It\u2019s a privilege to make some opening comments as the chair of the Health Committee, as we consider the Estimates for Vote Health and the various appropriations that come under that umbrella.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIn 2023-24, total appropriations sought by Vote Health are $26.51 billion. Two appropriations, in particular, cover most of the health services across New Zealand, accounting for nearly 80 percent of the funding. The proposed allocations are delivering hospital and specialist services, with funding requested of $12.72 billion, and delivering primary, community, public, and population health services, with funding of $8.16 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Minister of Health, the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall, on 28 June 2023, and there were various areas of interest that members asked questions about that largely revolved around five or six themes. We asked the Minister to take us through those themes. One of the themes that I think is worth mentioning, in particular, is removing prescription co-payments. We asked the Minister whether she expects that initiative to improve health outcomes, particularly for people on low incomes and particularly in winter, so there was plenty of information on that. The Minister did explain to us that, essentially, removing the $5 co-payment, the rationale behind it was about saving money to the health system as well as saving people from harm, and the fact that it was evidence-based, and there was plenty of information to go on. She added that there was very strong evidence that the decision, ultimately, will benefit both people\u2019s health and the health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, somewhat related to that, we also heard about the changing role of pharmacists, who are, obviously, at the heart of this initiative as well. It has been quite a game-changer, I think, for a lot of those pharmacists, who, often, are small businesses, because the large pharmaceutical outlets who haven\u2019t previously charged for the co-payment were able to use that as a loss leader and disadvantage those community pharmacies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo the Minister noted\u2014which is quite interesting\u2014that 98 percent of New Zealanders live within 20 minutes of a pharmacy, and highlighted the various different ways that their role has changed through the COVID experience in so far as being able to pick up immunisations, rapid antigen tests, and various other bits and pieces, and Te Whatu Ora had ensured that there was certain funding available to increase that. It was all part of what the Minister described to us as the 2023 winter health plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAnother big part of what we heard about through this Estimates process was about primary and community care. The Minister acknowledged that there were some general practice workforce issues. We looked at GPs, in particular, and she was able to tell the select committee that the Government had recently announced 50 additional places for medical schools, and also that there was an expectation that those medical schools would expose those trainees to more general practice and, certainly, Te Whatu Ora also backed that up by saying that they had funded several initiatives that affected general practice in general, so to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe learnt that with regard to mental health, that the ring-fence for mental health was maintained. We heard that the total ring-fencing funding for 2023-2024 is $2.3 billion nationally, and Te Whatu Ora explained how it had maintained that ring-fencing from the previous sort of district health boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe asked various questions about the progress on the restructure of the health system, which was an integral part of this. There was talk about efficiencies that were maintained and various other issues to do with setting up those localities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe other, I suppose, major theme was about the health capital envelope, and this proposed funding for this multi-year appropriation is $989.54 million, with a total of $5.45\u00A0billion over the five years. So there were several questions asked from members about that, and, likewise, the increased funding for Pharmac in this Budget, so the 10.5\u00A0percent of the national pharmaceuticals purchasing appropriation, which actually brings the total to $1.31 billion. So I look forward to hearing questions from members, and look forward to the Minister\u2019s answers to those questions as we go forward. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022881f99d852d3437393d59f9a9cf3eaf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022881f99d852d3437393d59f9a9cf3eaf1\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We asked a range of questions in the Estimates hearings to hold this Government to account for the projected spending of public funds. We asked why dozens of performance measures were discontinued from Budget reporting, and we highlighted ophthalmology wait times and cardiac wait times that will no longer be reported. Effectively, the Government said that it will only report these internally and not for public scrutiny anymore. The verbatim phrasing is \u201Creporting of these metrics continues at a district level and is internally circulated.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe question would have to be: why is it a good thing to remove these from public scrutiny? This was at Budget document level as well, not just at a quarterly dashboard level. Why is it a good thing to remove ophthalmology targets? There were actually cardiac targets as well. How is any of that a good thing? In fact, dozens of targets were removed, and I can\u2019t find a good answer as to why this is good. So they\u2019re still collected. They\u2019re internally reported\u2014well and good; that\u2019s great for internal consumption, but what about that public reporting back to the public? I don\u2019t think we got an adequate explanation for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe asked how many contractors and consultants transitioned from the Ministry of Health into Health New Zealand, because we\u2019ve been very concerned with both the number and the cost of contractors and consultants, particularly with the Public Service Commission reporting around about $150 million, if I recall correctly, of consultant and contractor fees through Vote Health in the last year. So we were particularly interested to find how many had transitioned\u2014at that July 1 transition time, how many had moved from the Ministry of Health into Health New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe answer that came back was an astounding 990 consultants and contractors who had transferred across. When we look at the Ministry of Health in that calendar year, they had roughly 1,700 fulltime-equivalents, so that means roughly every third person at the Ministry of Health was a consultant or a contractor. A 2:1 ratio of staff to contractors and consultants\u2014not clear how that can be a good thing. Really need to see the value that they would bring to that. I have seen some documents talking about how that might need to be addressed around contingent, as I believe, consultants and contractors, but looking back at how that money was spent, I think that still needs a large degree of accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe asked about Nelson-Marlborough and Hawke\u2019s Bay hospitals and where they were in progress, and maybe the Minister can give us some guidance, because if we look through the approvals process for large upgrades like that, the Capital Investment Committee is always an important part of that approval process, and so it\u2019s concerning to find out that the Capital Investment Committee has been disestablished. So this is a committee of external people with external domain expertise over many years, and in several parts of the pathway with the initial business case, it goes to Capital Investment Committee and back. With the detailed business case, it goes to Capital Investment Committee and back. Now, with that the committee is disestablished, the questions I have to ask around that are: when was it disestablished, why was it disestablished, and what replaces it? I think those are very important discussions that arise from the discussion we had around Nelson-Marlborough and around Hawke\u2019s Bay Hospital\u2014we were very interested to know what progress it had, particularly with the recent announcement on Nelson-Marlborough. So a large circle of query around the Capital Investment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe asked about the promise in 2020 that the Government would deliver an extra 4,000 more people in the Te Ara Oranga methamphetamine programme pathway. We checked whether this was incorporating the existing pathway in Northland, which is well established\u2014one of the best meth pathways in New Zealand, in my mind\u2014or whether this was on top. In written question No. 31310, the Government made it very clear that the 4,000 promise was on top of those being delivered in the Northland programme. So when the written questions returned from the Estimates and the answer was that there is 1,845 people who have gone through the Te Ara Oranga programme, the vast majority of that\u2014everything short of about 100\u2014must have been through the Northland programme. That was not the promise; the promise was 4,000 on top of the Northland programme. Murupara is the only clinic I can see that\u2019s been enabled; they project between 100 to 200 people progressing through Te Ara Oranga. So I want to put that back on the table that that question has not been well answered. It looks like 1,845 new people through Te Ara Oranga, all in Northland; only 100 towards that 4,000 promise. It would be useful if the Minister could address that. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022a30051aacd1c4633b96ec3705eab6d40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a30051aacd1c4633b96ec3705eab6d40\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I want to turn my focus to the issue of oral health, and I acknowledge that, for many of our communities, accessing decent dental care services remains out of reach for them because they\u2019re inaccessible. Some of the figures that the Minister of Health has provided in written parliamentary questions show that there has been consistent\u2014around 13,000\u2014discharges where the primary diagnoses was diseases of oral cavity, salivary glands, and jaws over the last few years. So my question is around what initiatives the Government is working on to reduce the incidences of these diagnoses and to improve people\u2019s oral health and whether Te Whatu Ora\u2019s relatively low number of fulltime-equivalents (FTEs) working in the public healthcare system, when it comes to dentists and the oral health workforce, needs bolstering and whether the Minister is comfortable with the fact that the majority of the provision for oral health services sits within the private sector. There\u2019s such a low number of FTEs within that workforce there. So any strategies that the Minister can illuminate on improving people\u2019s oral health would be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca0aa66b79b54b9bbc9053296dfa81f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca0aa66b79b54b9bbc9053296dfa81f4\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. During the Estimates, we asked about the number of staff at the M\u0101ori Health Authority. We were interested in this because the previous Minister of Health struggled to give an adequate answer, in my view, to multiple written parliamentary questions, and yet this is a question we ask of every entity: what is your fulltime-equivalent (FTE) growth like? The first time that we got a really good look at that was when the briefing to the incoming Minister (BIM) came in in February and it was identified that there were 220 since February 2023, that there were 227 fulltime-equivalents. When we asked this question in Estimates, the answer we got was 321\u2014that was subsequently corrected in written parliamentary question No. 20630 to 388 FTEs, or 400 headcount. That\u2019s quite a substantial change; almost a doubling from the BIM in February of 227 through to the projected final headcount of 388. While we talked about those numbers, there needs to be some explanation to that and how many of those projected FTEs at establishment are vacant spots. I understand there could be a hundred of those places still vacant. In that same brief, it would be useful to know if there\u2019s actually a financial officer permanently appointed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI have a number of issues around the M\u0101ori Health Authority, not an increase in confidence with the recent announcement of new board members. Effectively, half the board\u2014remember, in legislation, there can be up to five to eight members of the M\u0101ori Health Authority board\u2014jettisoned and another four brought in. Sharon Shea, Dr Sue Crengle, Lady Tureiti Moxon, and Dr Chris Tooley, as far as I can determine, have been jettisoned. Thank you for your service. One year\u2014just one year\u2014later, and four new people have been brought in. That needs some scrutiny, some explanation, as well, I think. But one year later, half the board gone\u2014why is that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI suspect some of those answers are in the Ernst \u0026amp; Young report that the Minister will not release\u2014if she\u2019s prepared to put a time frame on that, preferably this side of the election, then we will know what she knows or what the sector is telling me. So I come to that point that the Ernst \u0026amp; Young report may well address some of these issues, and that was received on her desk on 5 May. Some of the things we know that it\u2019s likely to go over, which are part of the Estimates, include the fact that the statement of performance expectations that was tabled in November 2022 did not include the full financial intonation required to meet the Crown Entities Act 2004. So there are financial issues with the M\u0101ori Health Authority that I believe that document may well explore, and I think it should be in public domain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe asked about why the 20 mobile dental caravans that had been previously promised had never eventuated, and we\u2019re asking this question again today. It was a very firm commitment in the previous Minister\u2019s hands, which sits inside this purview. We were assured\u2014in fact, the comment was: \u201CJust wait. There\u2019s still more of the parliamentary term still to come.\u201D Well, no, there\u2019s not; there\u2019s about another three weeks, or another 11 or 12 sitting days, maybe, and that\u2019s it. I just can\u2019t see 20 mobile dental caravans on the horizon. So it would be useful to know about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThere are parts of information technology in the Estimates that need some serious scrutiny. If the Minister wants to explain exactly what Hira is supposed to deliver in a concise sort of way\u2014this is a multi-hundred-million-dollar project. I\u2019ve looked at it many times and I understand the interface that it\u2019s trying to have with multiple different providers. I understand that it\u2019s to enable patients to get access to their own information. All of that sounds like a flash personal health record to me. Why we are spending hundreds of millions of dollars alludes me somewhat. So it would be illuminating to have the Minister expand on that large part of the IT budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIn the same breath, the southern digital transformation\u2014again, hundreds of millions of dollars. Exactly what that is doing, one presumes it\u2019s associated with the Dunedin Hospital build. My understanding is that there were five options and we chose the gold-plated option. I\u2019m happy to be corrected on that but I would also be happy to understand that better\u2014to understand its progress, how it is doing with the triple constraint of time, scope, and cost, because for hundreds of millions of dollars in the Budget, I think it\u2019s reasonable to expect some report back on that. We did look to touch on that in Estimates, but it\u2019s certainly appropriate to put that on the table here as well tonight. Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00229833bf7b943a4994b3c47314a5abc4f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229833bf7b943a4994b3c47314a5abc4f5\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to talk about safety. This year we have found that the safety of staff in our hospitals has been appalling. The number of assaults has more than doubled in the past year in our hospitals, and I have had conversations with people who work in hospitals who say, \u201CLook, I don\u2019t actually want to get paid more, I just want to feel safe when I turn up to work and walk down my hospital wards,\u201D and people don\u2019t feel like they have the ability to do their jobs and do them adequately because they\u2019re fearful of being assaulted or threatened when they\u2019re in the hospitals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI\u2019m curious whether there\u2019s been any funding allocated in these Estimates, or any analysis done on how much money\u2014extra\u2014the Government should be spending or allocating in this Budget towards improving the safety and wellbeing of people in our hospitals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022efc2137529304762a4f5305b9c3b7a5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efc2137529304762a4f5305b9c3b7a5b\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The previous speaker raised the question of the winter preparedness\u2014I say again that the Government\u2019s first speaker, Tracey McLellan, raised the question of the Winter Preparedness Plan, and I think that does bear some scrutiny in as much as that its purpose, amongst other things, is to decompress hospital emergency departments (EDs), and yet what we know is that Greymouth hospital is at 100 percent capacity in their general ward, Oamaru Hospital had to close their ED overnight on Monday, and send patients to Dunedin and Christchurch\u2014that\u2019s right, this was the Pegasus clinic last week that had to close, which is a primary care clinic, and one would imagine some of that overflow went to ED as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo the Winter Preparedness Plan is supposed to relieve some of the pressure on EDs. I\u2019m not seeing it. I\u2019m not feeling the love from that plan, not seeing huge benefits to that, yet this is part of what the funding in Budget 2023\u2014not part. It\u2019s a substantial amount of about $189 million, if I recall correctly, and it\u2019s supposed to be reducing the capacity and the load on these emergency departments, but even here today in these past 48 hours, we\u2019re not seeing that. Could this possibly be because the Winter Preparedness Plan, apart from the Telehealth component, is only for the eight hotspot EDs in the eight hotspot areas? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo for example, the scope extension of pharmacy to minor ailments, which I\u2019m supportive of scope extension\u2014I think there\u2019s a role for that\u2014but it really needs explanation as to why it\u2019s just these eight regions. Because what we have is we have pharmacists from Waikato and from Rotorua saying, \u201CWhat about us? It\u2019s not like we\u2019re an area that\u2019s extremely well served and have a well-healed population, and yet we\u2019re completely missing from that part of the Winter Preparedness Plan.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s a really, really good question to raise. I have no explanation as to why this was not ubiquitous across the whole country. I think it probably should have been, and so I\u2019d like to see the explanation for that, given the substantial sums of money in the Winter Preparedness Plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ETo follow on with another point that the first speaker raised around the \u201Cstrong\u201D evidence for co-pay relief, I think that needs some challenging. One study that the small numbers were questioned both by the authors and by the reviewers does not a summer make. I also think that the fact that 145,000 people were not able to pick up their prescriptions in the previous financial year, I think it was, due to cost which is being held out as one of the reasons for this wide-ranging policy. I think there are questions around that. It\u2019s been called a small number by a number of commentators. I get that 145,000 is some, but in the context of all the prescriptions, it\u2019s not a lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESecondly, when you probe into that\u2014and that data was done by the Health Quality and Safety Commission (HQSC)\u2014and say, well, how many of those had community services cards or were SuperGold card holders, because that that\u2019s the alternative policy that we are proposing, the reply is, \u201CSorry, we can\u2019t tell you that, we don\u2019t have that much granular data.\u201D Well, that\u2019s kind of not useful. That doesn\u2019t let us have that contest of ideas. It starts with what\u2019s been quoted as a smallish number anyway, and so I want to just contest this idea that the evidence is strong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThere is some evidence, and let\u2019s remember the primary outcome of the Otago study in question failed. The primary outcome was actually decreased length of stay. It was a failed outcome. There were some small pockets of pathology that benefit, but if you read the report, it was a failed primary outcome. It did reduce the number of people that went to hospital. That is fair. So it did achieve that goal and that that\u2019s a desirable goal, don\u2019t get me wrong, but let\u2019s not presume it was overwhelming or \u201Cstrong\u201D evidence that the Government has put forward for the co-pay reduction. It\u2019s still struggling to map that concept that wealthy people will get the same co-pay relief as those who are most vulnerable. It\u2019s just a principle that doesn\u2019t make it over the line. It just doesn\u2019t get there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI personally don\u2019t need to pay for the co-pay and I\u2019m happy to pay for it and I know there are a large number of New Zealanders who feel similar. So I want to contest that this is a strong policy and put up a contest of ideas that in fact it should be for the most vulnerable\u2014those with community services card holders and SuperGold card holders is what I\u2019m proposing, and unfortunately the data is not held by HQSC to actually look at what that number of 145,000 is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo, you know, we don\u2019t seem to be able to go any further down that path at the moment, but I think it\u2019s an important point to make. Again, if the Minister could explain, to come back to my first point, why it is only eight regions, eight hotspots in New Zealand who are benefiting from the Winter Preparedness Plan\u2014apart from Telehealth; I understand that has extended further. That would be useful. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca45dcaace794d1aa42e213bc809c237\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca45dcaace794d1aa42e213bc809c237\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Well, there you have it: an argument against targeting on the one hand and an argument for targeting on the other\u2014total absence of logic in the last part of that question. We saw the fig leaf being wheeled out, didn\u2019t we? We saw the fig leaf of, \u201CWell, I\u2019ve read the study and one endpoint said this and one endpoint that.\u201D and that\u2019s the warming us up for the cuts that National are going to make to the very effective and popular policy to make medicine free\u2014to make sure, as the member said, that we keep people out of hospital. Going back to the first part of his question, it was \u201CHow do we keep people out of hospital?\u201D Well, there\u2019s one way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe also have the winter plan, and, yes, many of the initiatives are targeted. There are a wealth of targeted initiatives in our health system, and the first year of the winter plan, the first time our country has had a comprehensive winter plan that spans across pre-hospital, hospital, and post-hospital care\u2014that first time, yeah, we did decide to approach it in a targeted way. We will be reviewing that and see if we cannot make improvements in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThere have been some very successful parts of the winter plan. I\u2019m told the minor ailments scheme in pharmacies is going exceptionally well. Thousands of visits there, lots of people making use of it. Sometimes when people do come to hospital, they have been to the pharmacy, so they\u2019ve had the basics already done. The kid with fever has already had their paracetamol, and that means that they actually are in need of coming to hospital at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI contest the idea that every single output that was measured in the health system is actually the appropriate measure to take with us in perpetuity. It may not be. We are trying to change our health system to reorient its priorities to have a greater emphasis on equity, to have a greater emphasis on keeping people well in their communities, and that will mean that in trying to get a broad, representative set of indicators of performance, we will need to make changes. It\u2019s quite a complicated thing to pick the appropriate indicators and work on that is ongoing at the moment, and the appropriate vehicle for resolving that will be through the Government policy statement process, which will be concluded over the coming six months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn terms of questions about dental care, I thank that member for that question. I\u2019m very proud to be part of a Government that\u2019s taken the step to depoliticise fluoridation and make that an official decision. That is one of the most impactful measures we can have on young people\u2014on all people, actually, but particularly young peoples\u2019 oral health and dental care. The changes we made have the potential to take our fluoridation rate from 50\u00A0percent up to 80 percent of people having access to a water supply that is fluoridated. The decisions that underlie that are now taken by the director-general and involve local authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn addition, part of the child and youth wellbeing strategy involves other aspects of looking after young peoples\u2019 oral health. In some poorer communities, we are providing families, via community health providers, toothbrushes, toothpaste, and education on proper dental hygiene there. Then, in addition, the really important change was to the emergency grants for dental care, which has resulted in a $30 million increase, I\u2019m advised, in hardship grants that have been paid out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EOn the matter of consultants in the Ministry of Health, there were a lot of consultants in the Ministry of Health as the pandemic wound up. So of the 990 contractors in the Ministry of Health, 574 moved to Te Whatu Ora. They were data and digital contractors. So 184 were in COVID vaccination. Clearly they were going to be on a contract and not long-term permanent staff in most cases, and 89 were also in other parts of the COVID19 response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI think the member who asked the question about Te Aka Whai Ora staffing numbers received a letter from the chief executive of Te Whatu Ora\u2014and it was not via written parliamentary questions\u2014an apology for the mistake made there, which was an honest mistake\u2014[Bell rung]\u2014about the number of staff reported at select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a14c874b52a6471cbd28d7b773df467a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a14c874b52a6471cbd28d7b773df467a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister seek another call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4fbb015dac04d66ad0f982186d16bfb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: No, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002282787f84e3d04d6a8321e09954460f10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282787f84e3d04d6a8321e09954460f10\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Seeing as the Minister talked about dental grants, I guess I wanted to get her perspective in terms of the overall public health outcomes of changing the non-recoverable amount\u2014whether she\u2019s got any views about whether the exclusion of check-ups and molar extractions actually serves to improve the oral health of our communities, and people lack single services because for some reason the Ministry of Social Development has decided to exclude check-ups. I wanted to test, you know, seeing as the Minister mentioned it, whether she\u2019s got any views as the Minister of Health about whether that\u2019s counterproductive to the grant actually meeting its full potential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen I know the Minister talked about fluoridation as a key component in the prevention and wellbeing of people\u2019s oral health, and I acknowledge that, but I guess I wanted to get a sense about what other initiatives, if any, are happening to actually address when somebody actually has ill oral health\u2014and obviously the goal is that doesn\u2019t happen, but when it does happen\u2014and we\u2019re seeing those hospital discharges figure representing that it has remained steady over time at relatively high numbers. What initiatives is the Government putting in place to bolster both the workforce and the public health system, or anything else beyond toothbrushes to improve the oral health of our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022817a34735e144ae3bc502781d595a3ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022817a34735e144ae3bc502781d595a3ae\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Isn\u2019t it remarkable to have a Minister that\u2019s standing up and seems quite angry, a little bit, with our spokesperson in terms of the questions that were asked. I think what the health sector really needs from the Minister is someone who is listening to the crisis which they\u2019re facing out there and the stress that their staff are facing day in, day out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhy is it today, Minister, that at Waikato Hospital we\u2019ve got pretty much every ambulance in the region ramping and waiting up to four hours because of the bed block at Waikato Hospital today? And this is a daily occurrence across this country in terms of the blockage within our secondary care hospital units, not only in emergency departments (EDs) but right through the patient flow journey within those hospital units, which are blocked. The system is blocked and the symptomatic signs of the ambulances banking up at the front door is systematic of a system that is broken. So what does the Minister say in regards to all of those ambulances that are ramping today? What does she say to those patients calling 111 that have an inability to get an ambulance because all of those ambulances are parked up waiting to offload their patients into ED departments across this country? What are the clinical and adverse patient incidents that have occurred as a result of the delay in treatment or the delay in collection of critically ill patients across the country as a result of these delays?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAll of these questions are not new factors and it\u2019s interesting the Minister refers to how well the winter plan is going. Well, I\u2019ll tell you what, Minister, winter happens every year. This is not the first year winter has occurred, but yet after six long years of this Government, you continue to fail to be able to make improvements in regards to the health system. You say that we are making progress, but the facts do not indicate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m addressing\u2014from the Minister: what are you doing around capital investment upgrade, particularly in the Auckland region? How are you getting on with Waitakere Hospital? How are you getting on with Waitakere Hospital and the fact that that hospital supports a population of Wellington and does not even have ICU or high dependency unit capability and deals with the scale of complexity that is West Auckland, and yet you\u2019ve known about the requirements and infrastructure upgrades for that hospital for years and have failed to do anything of any substance. I can see you smiling, thinking that this is some sort of joke, but it\u2019s not, Minister. These are reality and facts that our communities are facing across Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhen are we going to see plans around a new northern hospital? When are we going to see plans around a new southern hospital? Because six years on, we\u2019ve still not seen any tangible progress in regards to the growth within Auckland and the additional services required. When are we going to see that? All we seem to see is more moving of the deck chairs in a reform programme which, by all accounts, including those within the system, has failed and continues to fail and will be a legacy of you and your work in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u002286c68021c3884dd7935063395adaed55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286c68021c3884dd7935063395adaed55\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I have had conversations with people who have really severe illnesses and some people who don\u2019t have a severe illness, but they want their medication to be funded and their medications are not funded by Pharmac. They\u2019ve raised the issue of the pharmaceutical co-payment and the fact that the Government has now decided to put aside $700 million over four years to reduce the $5 co-pay and they\u2019ve said, \u201CPlease take this to the Minister and ask: did the Minister consider at any point that it would be good for our society for our medications to be funded currently on the options for investment list at Pharmac? We would be so happy to pay a $5 fee.\u201D Did the Government consider at any point that that money could be better used to reduce the waiting list of the options for investment list at Pharmac so that people could have access to new and modern medication that would have a $5 charge? And did the Minister consider at any point whether or not that would be more beneficial for some New Zealanders to be able to have access to these medications at all, rather than reducing a $5 fee for a lot of people who can already afford medications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWe\u2019d also like to know what other cost-benefit analysis the Minister did to show what other options could be on the table to help those people that she has considered to be the most vulnerable who cannot afford a $5 co-pay. Did she actually have any other suggestions on the table rather than reducing the $5 co-pay for all people who can afford a $5 fee, because a lot of people have said to me \u201CI would prefer that I was still being charged a $5 fee if it meant somebody else would actually have access to newer, modern medications.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI want to turn to the issue of the general practice 13 percent pay increase that was allocated in the ACT Party\u2019s alternative Budget. We\u2019ve had conversations with a lot of people who work in general practice who say that they\u2019re stretched, they\u2019re under resourced, and they can\u2019t cover their costs. How did the Government determine that a $5 capitation increase would be sufficient for general practice when the GPs themselves have said that they need a 13 percent GP capitation increase? What analysis was done and why does the Minister believe the Government\u2019s increase is acceptable when the general practice clinics do not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00220c4a1627c45f4decbc502cf15fe71647\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c4a1627c45f4decbc502cf15fe71647\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re just wondering if the Minister in the chair, Ayesha Verrall, is going to answer the questions around the 20 mobile dental caravans\u2014she talked about dental\u2014whether she\u2019s going to answer the questions around Te Ara Oranga, the promised 4,000 extra consultations. The written parliamentary question around the number of fulltime-equivalents in the M\u0101ori Health Authority is No. 20630\u2014I just want to clarify that. We really just want to know, both my questions and my colleagues\u2019, whether the Minister has any intention of answering them tonight in this debate, which is the purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s also put the Capital Investment Committee, which was reasonably asked and described, into that mix as well. I understand that a number will be extremely surprised that it has been disestablished, as was I an hour ago. So I think it\u2019s a reasonable question to ask. When was it disestablished, why, and what replaces it? This was a very important pathway to millions and millions\u2014literally, billions of dollars. Now we find out it\u2019s disappeared. So really it\u2019s a question: is the Minister going to answer the questions in this debate or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u002234335bf971ef4748b4f9ee59be09d2eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234335bf971ef4748b4f9ee59be09d2eb\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I completely agree with Dr Reti. I would really like to know what expenditure was set aside for staff safety in hospitals. We know the number of assaults has doubled in our hospitals in the last year. When I have people in hospitals coming up to me saying, \u201CI don\u2019t feel safe when I\u2019m at work, and I don\u2019t actually want a pay increase; I just want to feel safe when I\u2019m doing my job.\u201D, and they don\u2019t feel listened to by this Government\u2014why the Minister won\u2019t answer that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWe need to know what the Minister has done to listen to these concerns, because it\u2019s genuinely fearful for people turning up to work, and if people are fearful of turning up to work in our hospital systems, that doesn\u2019t give us faith that more people will want to join that profession. We need to know people are going to be safe when they\u2019re at work, especially when they\u2019re helping some of the most vulnerable people at the most vulnerable points of their lives. How much money has the Government put aside, in addition to what they had before, to make sure that there is security, to make sure that there is safety, to make sure that people are not being assaulted when they\u2019re in the hospitals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00228a3a1cb4595c4cb4a7256be794be958b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a3a1cb4595c4cb4a7256be794be958b\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As discussed in the select committee debate, this is an area of a profound concern for Te Whatu Ora and for myself. I am aware that for a long time there has been absolutely unacceptable behaviour directed towards staff from members of the public and that does make them feel threatened at work, and that is absolutely not appropriate. There is a considerable presence of security in our hospitals. Te Whatu Ora has over 800 fulltime-equivalent staff in security, and also in some districts there would also be external contractors providing that service. There is a renewed priority put on that work, and that\u2019s why Te Whatu Ora has engaged with unions on that matter to decide collectively what additional work can be done to address that. I know, in some hospitals that I\u2019ve visited, efforts to make sure that waiting rooms in the emergency department are more proactively managed and there\u2019s more support for the people waiting helps address some of the frustration that might be behind some of the unacceptable behaviour there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn terms of some questions about capital, the Southern digital transformation project is for modernising the information technology in Dunedin Hospital. That includes some of the infrastructure required for the build, such as cabling, but it also includes transformation in terms of digitising notes and other clinical systems\u2014for example, room bookings\u2014and potentially regionalising those systems as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe also at the committee discussed the approach to medicines of this Government, and I think this Government can be very proud of the comprehensive approach we\u2019ve taken to improving access to medicines. We have lifted the Pharmac budget by over 40\u00A0percent. There have been hundreds of new drugs or indications for drugs funded as a result of that change. While it is easy to have a go at Pharmac because not everything is available through it, there has been a substantial access to medicine through that effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn addition, we are also making sure that the benefits of that technology are equitably shared, and that is part of the rationale for the co-pay policy. It is not just a matter of having one approach to our medicines policy but having an integrated approach. The importance of being able to lift people\u2019s access to medicines through that co-payment is one of the priorities of this Government, and it\u2019s fantastic to see how warmly welcomed that policy is by the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe did discuss the reasons for the uplift for community services, including general practice being 5 percent. Traditionally, and this financial year, the uplift has been based on the annual statement of increase. That looks at capital cost, supplies, and workforce costs, and it was based on that\u2014that was 4.9 percent; the 5 percent uplift was in addition to that. It is the highest uplift that has ever been given to primary care and community services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e71418ffce9346998655cfcc8591918b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e71418ffce9346998655cfcc8591918b\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Chair. Kia orana to the Minister, the Hon Ayesha Verrall, as well. I just thank the Minister for answering some of the questions, especially on the Winter Preparedness Plan. It is the first of its kind\u2014the investment into 193 additional front-line clinical staff, which will be funded in Budget 2023, but also to see the investment of an extra half a billion dollars for primary and community care\u2014obviously, I will still push for our community providers there\u2014and also to see the $5 co-payment gone, which will definitely help, and has helped, many of my community members in South Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EOne of the focuses I want to speak about is around our young people and how the extension of school-based health services supports the physical and mental health of our young people. Looking at Cyclone Gabrielle and the affected areas there, how will the roll-out of the successful Mana Ake programme to our primary and intermediate schools in the Hawke\u2019s Bay and Tair\u0101whiti areas make an impact to support our tamariki in those areas? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022116f9d8aab1a486ea6e09e6c51218e6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022116f9d8aab1a486ea6e09e6c51218e6d\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d actually be interested to hear a little bit more about the funding in Budget 2023 to reduce waiting lists and also to standardise access to healthcare. There were some recent announcements around cataract surgery. Being from down South, I hadn\u2019t quite realised just how many more points those residents in the Southern region needed to get cataract surgery than some of those further North. So I\u2019d just like to hear a little bit more about what investments in Budget 2023 are being put in place to ensure that we can get equity around the country in terms of cataract surgery\u2014also, though, looking then at how that approach could be used to look at other equity issues, in terms of reducing the postcode lottery for other elective surgery and other interventions. I\u2019d be really keen to hear more about that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00226710d6f28ca744c2a1ea1cdef7bc70d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226710d6f28ca744c2a1ea1cdef7bc70d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Just circling back to make sure I\u2019ve dealt with all of these questions on the list, I can reassure Dr Reti that the Capital Investment Committee was disestablished as part of the transition to the new health system, but its function is carried over to a subcommittee of the Te Whatu Ora board. It includes board members as well as external experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn response to the question about cataracts, that has been a persistent inequity in our health system and one of the ones that has really been illustrative of the inequities that existed when we had 20 district health boards. Literally, in Dr Liz Craig\u2019s part of the country, and in Canterbury, people would have to be legally blind before they were able to qualify for publicly funded surgery for their cataracts, whereas in other parts of the country surgery could be done much earlier, because that was just the difference in how the DHBs chose to, or had to, allocate their funds. So being able to allocate some of the funds that were prioritised to wait-lists towards the initiative of getting over 3,000 additional cataract operations done has meant that, over time, we can progressively bring that threshold back to the place where it is the same across the country, because that is fair and what every citizen and taxpayer in New Zealand should be able to expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThese situations actually exist across all of our wait-lists. There are variations across the country, in various different access criteria in different districts, so there is an opportunity to go through each of them and identify opportunities for standardisation. I know officials at Te Whatu Ora are working on that, and they\u2019ll progress that as opportunities present themselves. Of course, the other important thing with wait-lists with that allocation of funds\u2014$118 million\u2014is to make sure that we continue to push for wait-list reductions. I\u2019m very pleased to report that I have been advised the wait-lists are reducing in all parts of the country, and that challenge of moving through with the ultra-long waiters is going incredibly well\u2014for example, all people waiting over three years have had their surgery. They\u2019re working through people who have been waiting for a second year. Te Whatu Ora\u2019s target is for no one to be waiting for longer than one year, and at the end of this year, other than for orthopaedics, where that will take a little longer\u2014but there is a similar plan for that, and those plans correspond to targets for each part of the country. Those targets have been allocated and are monitored week by week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229410a7eac708409ca8ea70ec4e1afe06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229410a7eac708409ca8ea70ec4e1afe06\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just hoping to circle back to oral health and, I guess, to put to the Minister whether she thinks that the oral health of our communities is suffering because of the cost barrier to access treatment, including check-ups\u2014which the Minister touched on about the dental grant and the access to the dental grant in this year\u2019s Budget\u2014and whether the exclusion of check-ups is actually contributing negatively to the oral health of our communities. Then, to go back to my previous question, I also wanted to get an understanding that beyond fluoridisation and initiatives that may provide targeted free toothbrushes, for example, what else is the Minister doing to reduce the cost barrier that many of our communities face to access treatment and have good oral health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002256a6872528b74944a0d8d799d4c63de9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256a6872528b74944a0d8d799d4c63de9\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March for reminding me of his question. Yeah, indeed, the purpose of the hardship grants is for treatment and a check-up is not included in that. However, I agree with the member\u2019s point that it is beneficial to have them because that allows early treatment. However, I\u2019m not sure, were we to do that, whether the hardship grant would be the right mechanism for achieving a check-up which is a regular preventive part of one\u2019s healthcare. Indeed, I am aware that cost is a barrier to accessing that, and one that I am concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI also thank the member for the question about health of children in schools and particularly in those cyclone-impacted areas. The Mana Ake programme is a well-tested programme\u2014it grew out of the Christchurch and Kaik\u014Dura earthquakes\u2014for mental health support for those little children who themselves and their families and their parents have gone through a disaster. One of the things that we learnt in Christchurch and from disasters around the world is that those mental health impacts can come on three years afterwards, so the response to a disaster is phased. The Mana Ake funding was in the extreme weather events pre-Budget announcement, and now Te Whatu Ora is working to set up Mana Ake in collaboration with the Ministry of Education, and further work with schools in Hawke\u2019s Bay and Tair\u0101whiti. In general, the whole system works on having very strong relationships with the local community, between the kaimahi from the health system and education, and those relationships are being developed now. As I said, this is not part of an emergency response. It is about building the resilience over the months and years that follow, and that is the reason why that does take some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u00227d89ce9e48d2485b9382fc28fcaaa6e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d89ce9e48d2485b9382fc28fcaaa6e0\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. This has been a really interesting evening\u2019s conversation. My stepmother\u2019s just had cataract surgery, although not here\u2014in the UK\u2014so I\u2019m aware of the importance of that particular piece of work. Minister, I would just like to talk a little bit more about the focus that this Government has on high-quality health infrastructure which we\u2019ve seen, and I was curious to hear a little bit more about the recent announcement of funding for the Nelson Hospital. I\u2019d just love to know what this means in terms of a stronger health system for the people at the top of the South Island, but also to follow up on what the Minister was talking about with regard to disaster preparedness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen from the North Island weather events that there\u2019s obviously a really clear need to have a plan in place to reduce the devastation of future natural disasters, and you were talking, Minister, about the effects of the Canterbury earthquakes on mental health. But I just wondered how the planned hospital would support people in the wider Nelson area and Wellington region, as well, should the worst happen and a significant earthquake occur on the Alpine Fault line?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9e607a33ff9401494c2d8e02dc34366\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9e607a33ff9401494c2d8e02dc34366\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will refer to the earlier question about health infrastructure in general and also in Auckland, and I just think it\u2019s really exciting. I visited with Shanan Halbert, the local MP, T\u014Dtara Haumaru, the new build for elective surgery on the North Shore: 150 beds, and eight theatres and endoscopy suites. It\u2019s looking really good, and the opening is just months away. So that\u2019s a very exciting facility there, and it\u2019s part of that process to make sure that we separate our planned care from acute care so that we can keep planned care going, whatever the pressures are that we have on acute care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very proud that this Government has prioritised funding on health capital and hasn\u2019t cut it back just when our times have got difficult, because these are such long-term projects that you really do require continuous investment. That is the only responsible way to be able to make sure our country gets the hospitals our people need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWith respect to Nelson Hospital, that is a very exciting development for the people of Nelson. We were able to announce the move to phase one of that project, with over $70\u00A0million for the detailed design to be funded and for studies on the site. There are issues with resilience with the existing building, and so the plan for this one is for it to be built to IL4 standards so it can continue to operate if there was a serious earthquake. The building proposed is for an acute services block that would contain the emergency department\u2014an enlarged emergency department\u2014theatres, of course, surgical, medical, and maternity; and then refurbishing and strengthening existing buildings on site to make sure that other services, including community health and other ancillary and support services such as rehabilitation, are available there. Indeed, it would be a very important building for the region, and I\u2019m very pleased that our Government is able to take a significant step in the development of that building. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022 data-id=\u002274c3c3517ee94c89a32a4db80b8395aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274c3c3517ee94c89a32a4db80b8395aa\u0022\u003ESORAYA PEKE-MASON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. Minister, recently, sadly, I found out that my youngest sister was diagnosed with breast cancer. Fortunately, it was caught early in the piece, and she went through the process, but she kept it so herself. She\u2019s the sort of person who wanted no pity, and we found out later when she was on the mend, which was great news. But nevertheless, of course, like with anyone in any wh\u0101nau, it\u2019s a very concerning matter when it comes to any kind of cancer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003ESo my question is around explaining, please, in terms of the Government\u2019s major upgrade of the breast-screening register, how this initiative improves the uptake of screening appointments, Minister. In addition, please, with regard to Budget 2023\u2019s $118\u00A0million in funding to reduce the waiting lists, how does it help New Zealanders to access the cancer treatment more quickly? Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002201dc79777ee94997974e13c1dfcc09e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201dc79777ee94997974e13c1dfcc09e1\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank that member for her question. The upgrade of the breast-screening register is an incredibly important initiative. It is dated, and that means that there are risks in terms of the ability to keep making sure the service is properly provided and for the security of the system. That work is under way, and I believe it is next year that that project will be completed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe important thing about that project is that many of the things that you\u2019d think your health information system should be able to do, you can\u2019t currently do with the breast-screening system. So, for example, I know that members of this House ask quite logical and reasonable questions about breast-screening coverage and about who is and who isn\u2019t screened, but that cannot be extracted from the register as it currently is, which is frustrating and it stops us from being able to improve the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe second thing that is a problem is that many of the more sophisticated outreach tools that we used over COVID\u2014for example, text messages or emails that incredibly cheaply helped get more people to be aware that their visit was due\u2014will be able to be done with the new system, which we can\u2019t currently do. So that is a huge advance, as well. So those opportunities to make sure people who should be screened are being screened to improve the equity of the breast-screening service are incredibly important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe $118 million for action on wait-lists in Te Whatu Ora\u2019s budget\u2014one of the key priorities for that is implementing the response to the task force report. Now, all cancer surgery is highly prioritised in all of our hospitals, so that goes without saying. But challenges over COVID meant that some people who had surgeries that could have been deferred were having to wait far too long, and that money is going towards making sure that theatres are efficient and that we\u2019re doing all of the work to be on top of how many operations we need to do to catch up, and then doing the catch-up and, in some cases, outsourcing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227ef2d02e3d204d92aeb1fc5d31a61f7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ef2d02e3d204d92aeb1fc5d31a61f7c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Would some member like to move that the committee report progress?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002281f0d3e4521d4fa6b34a4ed397fbe198\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281f0d3e4521d4fa6b34a4ed397fbe198\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the committee report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022390b6ffd235f42ac810245041d672b85\u0022\u003ENatural and Built Environment Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002268fb0257fa2c44a28c1296605f229c32\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000616\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 27 July.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002200f62573b40143309ecd08502f195107\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e328d8cc8a6243b8b745de478be4e1ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e328d8cc8a6243b8b745de478be4e1ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Natural and Built Environment Bill. When we were last considering the bill, we had finished debating Part 12. We come now to the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D. The question is that clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0d2a8b7795c42bfa2ec5a4740e1e44c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0d2a8b7795c42bfa2ec5a4740e1e44c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Chair. For people who are watching at home, on television, or listening on their wirelesses, we are in the final stages of what is known as the committee of the whole House analysis of this very substantial Natural and Built Environment Bill. It runs to over 900 pages, and we spent quite a bit of time last week doing a clause by clause analysis. I have to say that I think it was a very useful discussion and debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut, as you have said, Madam Chair, we come now to what is a bit of a quirk of the parliamentary system, and that is that the first clauses of a bill are the last clauses to be debated in the committee of the whole House. So we come to clause 1, which relates to the title of the bill. Clause 1 says, \u201CThis Act is the Natural and Built Environment Act 2022.\u201D So I am immediately compelled to ask the Minister for the Environment whether they are going to change that to 2023. So, if he might like to answer that question, that would be useful. Or is this, indeed, a piece of retrospective legislation that the bill is in place? I\u2019m referring to Supplementary Order Paper 389, which I think is still the most current one that I have, page 32. So if the Minister can just clarify for us what year he intends the bill to take effect and why it\u2019s listed as 2022 and not 2023. I\u2019d appreciate his comments on that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00224edae97aa4124a6d92eedee1010f5215\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224edae97aa4124a6d92eedee1010f5215\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just checking with officials, who are checking with the Parliamentary Counsel Office. But I think that was the date of the bill when it was being introduced, and that\u2019s one of the drafting things that they just tidy up on the final print of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00225ec1863f8fed4d61bbb2d6713545d576\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ec1863f8fed4d61bbb2d6713545d576\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E So is it the intention of the Minister for the Environment to introduce a Supplementary Order Paper to correct the error in terms of the year that the bill is set out for in clause 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5e763bb55d34cb8be9f53242a267a54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5e763bb55d34cb8be9f53242a267a54\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The Parliamentary Counsel Office have confirmed that it isn\u2019t a mistake; it\u2019s the House style.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022509c7ca5aa904820a377aa4a803bc5ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022509c7ca5aa904820a377aa4a803bc5ad\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So coming back to the title, the \u201CAct is the Natural and Built Environment Act\u201D. I wonder if the Minister for the Environment could give us some background and insight as to the history of the naming of the bill. We\u2019ve heard, at some length, why a lot of the bill was put in place as a result of the Randerson committee\u2019s work, but there were a number, I think, of alternative names for the bill suggested at various stages of the development of this legislation, and I\u2019m wondering if the Minister could give the committee of the whole House a little bit of a potted history as to how we\u2019ve come to this title, what its genesis was, and what the rationale for it is, in terms of the wording of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2cc028473bb46318c546743917e3894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2cc028473bb46318c546743917e3894\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s not a loaded name. It\u2019s not like Operation Enduring Freedom or some of the loaded names to programmes that some other jurisdictions use. The custom in New Zealand is that legislative titles are generally descriptive of the content of the bill, soon to be Act. This, at different stages, was the \u201CNatural and Built Environments\u201D\u2014plural\u2014\u201CAct\u201D, but having regards to the definitions of \u201Cenvironment\u201D as including both the natural and built environment, in the definitions clause, there was a drafting change at the Environment Committee to the singular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022be6a0084e74740f9915e85133c4d04d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be6a0084e74740f9915e85133c4d04d2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The power of the select committee never ceases to amaze\u2014that we could go from the plural to the singular!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI meant to say, in the first call that I took when I was giving a little bit of an introduction as to where we are at with this bill, that here in the National Party, on this side of the House, we oppose this legislation in its entirety. It is our intention, should we have the opportunity and privilege of leading a new Government in October later this year that we will repeal this legislation in its entirety before Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f4380420ed84c0bbb5b74935c52f480\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: And replace with what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae02e301c75438999d8e9c8d1a8afe3\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: And then we will replace it with some reasonable and workable legislation that doesn\u2019t have the same kind of hiccups and problems that this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to come back, Madam Chair, because I know you will want me to, to debating clause 1, which is the title of the bill. Now, at the Environment Committee, there was only one submission on the title, and the submission proposed that the title of the bill should be the \u201CNatural and Built Environments Planning Act\u201D. I\u2019m keen to ask the Minister why that suggestion wasn\u2019t taken up and what his objection to that suggestion from the submitter was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceca1fce9dc64d23a7232b28fcf3510c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceca1fce9dc64d23a7232b28fcf3510c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The Environment Committee didn\u2019t believe it was necessary, and neither do I.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002271d571d32159469eb7d8eac7d41dbd35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271d571d32159469eb7d8eac7d41dbd35\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually wanted to ask the Minister a question around the commencement. So the commencement clause compared to the title clause is rather long because it\u2019s a bit like an initiation process around how the bill gets introduced. But I just think for the purposes of the public, it\u2019s worth knowing that, you know, the bill\u2014a lot of it will come into force once the Government puts it through. But then it says, \u201COne or more Orders in Council may be made under this section\u201D\u2014this is clause 2(4)\u2014\u201Cappointing different dates for the commencement of different provisions and for different purposes\u201D, and (5) \u201CAn Order in Council may bring different provisions of the Act into force on different dates for different districts or regions of local authorities; or any area of New Zealand specified in the order.\u201D So I just thought it was worth actually having a conversation tonight in the House for those that are actually watching out there, that the Minister\u2014because it is a rather long and protracted commencement, once it actually begins, it takes a while before it comes to fruition. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c92b30d7c79340d5b69663bfd99d5f64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c92b30d7c79340d5b69663bfd99d5f64\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The member is correct that some parts of the new Act come into force in parts of the country\u2014in fact Parts 1 to 9 in large part come into effect on the date after the Royal assent is given. So Parliament gives it its third reading and then it goes to the Governor-General who gives the bill the Royal assent on behalf of the King. At that point, most of the legislation comes into effect, but there are some parts that are turned on region-by-region, and some parts that are turned off under the Resource Management Act (RMA) region-by-region. The reason for that is to avoid some of the transitional problems that we had with the bringing to effect of the RMA after the Town and Country Planning Act, where we had two systems operating side by side throughout the whole of the country for a long period of time. Here, the new system doesn\u2019t turn on in full and the old system turn off in full in any region until after they\u2019ve got their first plan in place. That\u2019s been done on a region-by-region basis, probably three regions for a start, and the rest to follow. That\u2019s the effect of the different timing of the eventual repeal of the RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022d423ce4153dc4c818cf7d88ebe6a0824\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d423ce4153dc4c818cf7d88ebe6a0824\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, thank you for your always fulsome explanations of the policy and legislation that you\u2019re proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI just firstly want to come back to the definition of \u201Cenvironment\u201D in the title. If we look at the definitions, \u201Cenvironment\u201D, actually, is quite complicated, it\u2019s quite convoluted. It includes \u201Cthe natural environment\u201D, \u201Cpeople and communities and the built environment that they create\u201D; \u201Cthe social, economic, and cultural conditions that affect the matters stated in paragraphs (a) and (b)\u201D\u2014that\u2019s \u201Cnatural environment\u201D; \u201Cpeople and communities\u201D, the stuff they build\u2014\u201Cor that are affected by those matters\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I put it to you that it is the most all-encompassing yet incredibly confusing definition of \u201Cenvironment\u201D that will potentially\u2014in fact, quite likely\u2014lead to a whole lot of confusion in the way that plans are made, in the way that resource consent decisions are made, and in the way the judiciary interprets plans made under this bill\u2014or Act, when it\u2019s passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo Minister, would you care to explain, in terms of the title, the \u201CNatural and Built Environment Bill\u201D, how some of the conflicts between the natural environment\u2014I assume that means flowing water and growing trees and the blowing wind and the hot sun that we might feel, although it\u2019s been a rare thing in Auckland in July, I can confirm that. How are decision makers meant to reconcile \u201Cthe natural environment\u201D and their understanding of that, in terms of the title of the bill, with the things we want to build in the environment that might break the natural environment or somehow damage it in some way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd how, if the word \u201Cenvironment\u201D in the title encompasses so many aspects\u2014in fact, all the aspects of life on earth: social, economic, and cultural conditions that affect the natural environment, people and communities, and the built environment that they create. How is a decision maker looking at the title of the bill, trying to understand how to make decisions about the environment, meant to interpret what the title means, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002250d54eb984694e1fa34055503370c9e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250d54eb984694e1fa34055503370c9e0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Those matters were discussed in the debate on Part 1 of the debate. The title doesn\u2019t affect the definitions that are in Part 1. That debate has already been held.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022a245eba381f44cc38f387cb6a2c7d8d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a245eba381f44cc38f387cb6a2c7d8d3\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to talk about the commencement dates as well. I just wonder, Minister, given that the National Party and our ACT colleagues don\u2019t support the bill, why wasn\u2019t it considered to have the commencement, instead of the first provisions, come into force on the day after Royal assent? To have that date be a week or two weeks or a month after the election when, effectively, you have a referendum on it. Given it\u2019s so close to the election and the National Party has quite clearly said that we will repeal and replace this immediately, before Christmas, why won\u2019t the Minister do that? Because, quite frankly, has there been any assessment of how much work is likely to be done prior to the election and all of that work being for nought, effectively, before Christmas? Actually, I would have thought, perhaps, 1 January might have been a good commencement date\u2014something like that which would have been a practical approach to this legislation. Putting aside all partisan views, what is the best for New Zealand? And given that we have a referendum on the bill, and, ultimately, we all in this House have to accept what the results of the election are, whether we like it or not, why wouldn\u2019t the Minister not put that into this bill? I know he\u2019s put a lot of work into it, and I know that officials have done a lot of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c55c74ee3674c5f9889f4f12ff2e400\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: He sees it as his legacy, that\u2019s why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275f8b9facfa841f8bb44af99e4f3026c\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, but it might be like the Titanic was a legacy as well. So I\u2019d like to hear the Minister\u2019s response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022992eacead8ea4c8f9b3633e6a025f310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022992eacead8ea4c8f9b3633e6a025f310\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Born to rule members of the National Party think they should be able to change what Parliament decides even before they win an election, and they\u2019re not going to win it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00222a75fba977494022a4e0d963e25cb2a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a75fba977494022a4e0d963e25cb2a1\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you for the concession that the Minister, the Hon David Parker, has predicted the outcome of the election already! That\u2019s reassuring for those of us on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on the points that my colleague Stuart Smith was making about the progress of this legislation, the timing of it, and the timing for implementation. I want to spend just a minute or so going back in history. The Minister will well recall the process by which the existing Resource Management Act (RMA) came into effect. Those of us of a certain age remember the 1990 general election\u2014Labour lost that election. Sir Geoffrey Palmer had done quite a lot of work on a resource management planning statute: it had got to a first reading, it had been to select committee, it had had a second reading, but the election of 1990 intervened. At that point, a new Government\u2014Jim Bolger\u2019s Government\u2014came into office and one Simon Upton was appointed as the new National Party environment Minister. Now, my understanding and recollection of the history is that what happened then was that that bill\u2014that had not actually passed before the election, and this is the point that Stuart Smith was making, I think\u2014had, effectively, become a referendum. It was part of the election campaign. It was debated hotly throughout that election period. And, although I was far too young to be actively involved in that campaign, there were many, many other people\u2014probably who still sit in this Chamber\u2014who were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister about commencement is: why has he not thought it a wise and useful process to actually leave the final passing of this legislation, which he seems so determined to pass before Parliament rises on 31 August, and adopt a process that wasn\u2019t dissimilar to that that occurred with the passing of the original, principal Act that this bill seeks to replace? Was that something that he considered, in terms of timing? Was that process of trying to achieve what was, ultimately, a cross-party, bipartisan approach\u2014because that legislation was ultimately passed, and the Minister probably remembers the detail better than I do. But my recollection was that the RMA actually passed with the support of both National and Labour after the 1990 election and the change of Government. So I\u2019m interested to know whether the Minister considered that kind of option in terms of his commencement options. And, if he did, why did he reject that option as a potential pathway for trying to achieve a more bipartisan, consensus approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe64118f1cf84544bbf5e4bd57137bf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe64118f1cf84544bbf5e4bd57137bf4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There have been many years of complaint about the Resource Management Act. The last Government said that they wanted to get rid of it. We\u2019ve got on and replaced it. Those who call for delay, I might describe as very negative, wet, and whiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00220acd623de6794dffb5e36cd7de19c5b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220acd623de6794dffb5e36cd7de19c5b7\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, in one of your comments this evening, you\u2019ve referred to the issues with implementing the Resource Management Act. So when it comes to the commencement date of this bill, which you\u2019ve pointed to mostly be on the day that the bill achieves Royal assent, you also mentioned that one of the purposes of the commencement date and the provisions applying from that date are to avoid the transitional confusions that occurred with the Resource Management Act operating at the same time as the Town and Country Planning Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut, Minister, isn\u2019t it correct that once this bill becomes law and the national planning framework is then developed, essentially, under the direction of a future Minister, that decision makers still operating under the Resource Management Act or looking at consents that were applied for before this bill becomes law will have to have at least one eye on the horizon about how our national planning framework and instruments such as the national policy statement for freshwater, indigenous biodiversity\u2014goodness me\u2014the national policy statement for urban development, all these other instruments that might be carried over. But also, what else might be in a national planning framework, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo won\u2019t it actually continue to cause confusion for decision makers about resource consents, about plan changes, and so on if this bill is passed and all of the conflicts that this bill is designed, apparently, to resolve between the things we build, between the effects on the environment of building and operating infrastructure between the need to potentially disturb wetlands to do earthworks housing and so on\u2014aren\u2019t all those conflicts unresolved until the national planning framework is developed and implemented? And doesn\u2019t that create a phenomenal amount of uncertainty for decision makers until it is resolved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo while the commencement date of the bill might be the date after it receives Royal assent, all of the problems that the Randerson panel, which identified the problems, and this bill, intended to solve\u2014those conflicts between the natural environment, the built environment, how you allocate natural resources, how you address and minimise effects on the environment through development\u2014remain unresolved, Minister, and just create more confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e04047da680744a992eeb118dfc99faa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e04047da680744a992eeb118dfc99faa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The national planning framework, how it\u2019s put together, how it relates to the Resource Management Act, and those transitional provisions were debated as part of Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022138e965da08b41379692730d3369eab2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022138e965da08b41379692730d3369eab2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is not an ordinary commencement clause. Usually, in a bill, the commencement clause says something like \u201CThe Act will come into force on the day after Royal assent.\u201D, or something similar to that. This is a very complicated and multifaceted commencement clause. Yes, clause 2(1) says \u201CThe following provisions come into force on the day after Royal assent\u201D, but it then goes through to categorise and sectionalise whole groups of clauses and parts of this bill. I\u2019m not going to go through each of those, but let me just advise people who are listening or watching tonight that clause 2(1) goes through from paragraphs (a) through to (l). So there are lots of moving parts and different time tables for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to refer specifically to clause 2(2C), where it says, \u201CSection 803 and Schedule\u00A013 come into force on the earlier of (a) a date appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council made on the recommendation of the Minister for the Environment\u201D and then (b) says \u201C2 years after the date on which this Act receives the Royal assent.\u201D So this is a subclause that gives the Minister of the day quite a bit of discretion about timetabling. But then it goes on in clause 2(3) to say \u201CThe rest of this Act (except for provisions commenced under subsection (6)) comes into force on a date appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council\u201D\u2014again\u2014\u201Cmade on the recommendation of the Minister for the Environment.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m wondering whether the Minister can give us some indication as to what his thinking is about the timetabling that will be made by Order in Council, triggered by his recommendation, in those two subclauses. If he could give us some insight into that, I think it would be helpful not only to the committee of the whole House but also to people watching. Ultimately, it will give some indication and a degree of clarity, I think, to people who are going to have to work with this legislation, albeit for a very short period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022033a636902e0460abf0020176179e93c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022033a636902e0460abf0020176179e93c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 803 relates to the coming into force of Schedule 13, which relates to the powers of the Environment Court that are reconstituted in a very similar way to the current constitution under the Resource Management Act (RMA), but under the new Act, because the RMA eventually disappears, and therefore if they were constituted in the future, under the RMA, that would lapse. So that\u2019s provided by that subclause that the member referred to, to be two years after this bill receives Royal assent or an earlier date if things are moving ahead faster, if that occurs through Order in Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7c51ed2c2304d02a7fe0bf3b3b0c63b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7c51ed2c2304d02a7fe0bf3b3b0c63b\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister, for that clarification, that is useful. One of the criticisms of this entire piece of legislation is that it has the potential to create uncertainty, judicial uncertainty that\u2019s going to require judicial interpretation, and uncertainty about time frames, and uncertainty for people who have to implement it, and uncertainty for people who are trying to get developments done or to use the legislation to achieve the goals and objectives and desires that they seek to bring about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo clause 2(5) in Supplementary Order Paper 389, I think, relates to a potential for even greater uncertainty. I want to just read out what subclause (5) says. It says, \u201CAn Order in Council may bring different provisions of this Act into force on different dates for\u2014(a) different districts or regions of local authorities; or (b) any area of New Zealand specified in the order.\u201D It\u2019s my contention that that lack of certainty and clarity about which parts of the country, which districts, which regions are going to have the legislation come into force as opposed to other parts of the country where the legislation\u2019s going to be in force already, that that is only going to add to the confusion. Now, I think that the Minister will probably point to the history of the implementation of the existing Resource Management Act (RMA), which was done by one king-hit, and there were undoubtedly issues and problems with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut to have a commencement clause, as clause 2(5) indicates, that creates a very clear distinction that some parts of the country are going to have this bill in force on different dates to other parts of the country\u2014different regions, different districts, different local authorities\u2014my contention is that that\u2019s only going to add a high level of uncertainty, confusion, and potentially cost to a developer, for instance, that may want to do a building development in one part of the country where the new provisions of this legislation have come into effect and are in force and are in play, and might want to build another development in another part of the country that is still operating under the old RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister could give us some idea about how he sees that timetabling\u2014I know that, for instance, already, I think that there are two regions that have been singled out for, essentially, being the guinea pigs for commencement of the legislation\u2014that would be helpful to have some insight about why they were chosen, what the purpose was, and about the staged and staggered implementation of this legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022209e953a4b474e8888fd06ccabf75ab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022209e953a4b474e8888fd06ccabf75ab1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The first point I would make is that if people were worried about uncertainty, they would be worried about an Opposition, who, if elected, promise to repeal this, then repeal the Resource Management Act, but haven\u2019t specified how they will fix it; whereas this fixes the system and allows the country to move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of clause 2(5), that matter was well considered by the Environment Committee, and the select committee agreed that the system should turn on region by region, rather than every region at once. The reference at subclause (5)(b) is included in order to cover parts of New Zealand that aren\u2019t actually covered by district or regional council. There\u2019s the occasional offshore island that\u2019s, effectively, managed by either the Department of Conservation or the Department of Internal Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7f2ad831e8b4e6384eef1d8ae15731f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7f2ad831e8b4e6384eef1d8ae15731f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, just further to the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s question about the progressive time frames for implementation. Now, we have heard from local government representatives that they\u2019re very, very concerned about how they should prepare for the commencement of this legislation. Should they in fact prepare to lose staff who might be co-opted onto a planning entity? Because what the legislation provides for is for those planning entities to hoover up staff from local government, from regional councils and district councils\u2014and that might include planners; it could include legal advisors, geographic information system and other technicians. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EPeople who work for councils now, and those councils are entirely dependent on them for their business as usual activities, such as processing resource consents, comparing applications with existing plans, or gathering information and uploading it onto planning documents. Minister, local government entities and their representatives\u2014Taituar\u0101 and Local Government New Zealand\u2014they raised this point that on the day of commencement, they are not sure what resources they will need to provide, what costs they\u2019ll need to allow for, whether those costs will be recoverable, Minister, or whether this creates yet another central government - imposed unfunded obligation on local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo Minister, could you please give the House some assurance that those local government organisations\u2014which still need to process resource consents against existing planning documents, potentially for years\u2014that their human resources, that the people who work in those local government organisations, will have some certainty about their futures and that those organisations will have some certainty about whether their resources will be poached, whether they\u2019ll face excessive costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut just to your point, Minister, if you\u2019re concerned about the fate of this bill and what might come next, I can assure you that ACT\u2019s solutions for building New Zealand and conserving nature provide some comfort to many, many people in New Zealand, including businesses who are worried about their private property rights being eroded by this legislation that is tabled here tonight, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b04149f06f4141aa1e9a1cbcf4b6e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Court, are you inviting me to rule on relevance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3cfb76332aa445dad55794a00a17fc2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Chair, absolutely not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b012662d58d7402e8f001efc1d214bfc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: It sounded like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e3bfdcbc1b54ef78680f2f347d6e399\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: So Minister, my question is, what are local government supposed to do? What are they supposed to know on a given day about their resources; their costs? How are they supposed to plan for this? Could you give me some assurance, please, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8b5f4451ee24557a894d95e3e2cd765\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8b5f4451ee24557a894d95e3e2cd765\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Those matters were debated as matters of substance arising from other parts of the bill, but as the member well knows, the bringing together of plans within a region through a regional plan is actually modelled on the legislative model that was applied to bringing the Auckland councils together in Manukau, Auckland centre city, Waitakere, and North Shore. That was of course overseen by the Hon Rodney Hide as the then ACT member and Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002238776f7e2a214bc78966666200a2bf73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238776f7e2a214bc78966666200a2bf73\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It is after 9 o\u2019clock and we\u2019re just getting into our work\u2014just getting into our work. I would like to begin, though, by acknowledging the work that the officials put into this. I mean, it must be a substantial part of their lives tied up in this bill. It\u2019s only a pity that, should we get the opportunity to after the election, it\u2019ll be gone by lunchtime, but, yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a175549b589044debf361bfcc9c90e06\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: And replaced with what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c537f7c018f461baf5b827b6f3584c8\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: And repealed, yeah. I\u2019m sure that all members will be looking forward to that debate when it comes around, should we have the privilege of doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut I would like to focus on the commencement clause 2(6), \u201CAn Order in Council may be made under this subsection on the recommendation of the Minister for the Environment and the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti and, in the case of the Gisborne region, also on the recommendation of the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, that brings into force on 1 or more dates provisions to enable the regional planning committee composition process set out in Part 1 of Schedule 8 to be initiated for any region or regions.\u201D Quite a complicated little piece there, and I\u2019d really like the Minister in the chair, David Parker, to explain why we have to have all of those people lining up to get this enacted. It goes over the page, into (7), but I think the Minister\u2014well, I\u2019d like to hear it from him how this is going to work, because it sounds quite complicated to me, sounds like it\u2019s going to cause a lot of angst and, I suspect, delay. How are we going to get all those people lined up to actually agree to bring this into force, and then what happens practically on the ground to get these things up and running? So, looking forward to hearing the Minister\u2019s answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd7c28bfb564d45a7789e42b48cceb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd7c28bfb564d45a7789e42b48cceb6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There are various bespoke Treaty settlement arrangements that apply to how resource management plans are put together around the country. Those were adopted by Governments led by National-ACT or by Labour over the years, and some of them are different. The legislation allows those arrangements to be transitioned into the new system, and subclauses (6) and (7) allow that to happen. Members will note that subclause 7(c), which applies to both of those subclauses that I\u2019ve referred to, says that in any event, even if those processes haven\u2019t been completed, after two years have elapsed, those provisions come into force two years after the Act has received Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00225388249cf5e94a9c9609bba8648c611e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225388249cf5e94a9c9609bba8648c611e\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002210607813c27d4b7e9f9b004685511048\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210607813c27d4b7e9f9b004685511048\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just a quick one. In clause 2(7)(c), as the Minister said, if two years have elapsed since the date on which the Act received the Royal assent, it would come into force anyway. Why not just have that part of the clause? Why have all these complicated other variances where it could come in at different dates along the way in different regions? Why not just have it all in two years after the date of Royal assent? It would be a lot simpler, those people in the region would have certainty, they\u2019re not left hanging waiting for whether the Minister for the Environment, the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations, or in the case of the Gisborne region, also the recommendation of the Ministry of the Treaty of Waitangi negotiations. Wouldn\u2019t it be better just to have a date cast in stone at the beginning? I think that would be a far simpler thing, so why is that Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022834cbe12c7a3409a88bf45d3ea6fafed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022834cbe12c7a3409a88bf45d3ea6fafed\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E No, we didn\u2019t think that, and neither did the select committee. The reason for that is there are actually very\u2014there are a lot of Treaty settlements that are actually very, very simple and they have statutory acknowledgements which are very easy to transition into the new system, and that won\u2019t take anything like two years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00221f45b4c6bc964b069be7f60d68dd7a4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f45b4c6bc964b069be7f60d68dd7a4d\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Throughout the debate on this mammoth bill, we\u2019ve been conscious that it is but one part of a three-legged trifecta in terms of legislation. We are soon to start\u2014probably tomorrow morning\u2014the debate on committee of the whole House for the Spatial Planning Bill: that\u2019s sort of the sister piece of legislation that goes with this Natural and Built Environment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut in the commencement clause\u2014clause 2\u2014of this bill, there is no mention of the third leg of the legislative framework that the Minister has in place, which relates to adaptation. Now, throughout the entire process of select committee on both this bill and the Spatial Planning Bill, we\u2019ve been kind of blindfolded\u2014trying to find our way through this\u2014because we haven\u2019t had access to the third leg of the trifecta, which is the adaptation piece.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister why there is no reference in the commencement clause of this bill relating to the potential impacts, and presumably the intended benefits, that are supposed to come from that adaptation climate piece; why there\u2019s no mention in this commencement clause of that; and is it still his intention\u2014as I understand he has publicly stated on a number of occasions and I think the climate Minister has made the same promise\u2014that that adaptation piece of legislation will be introduced to the House before the House rises for the election on 31 August?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227010f9fabcdd4cd786931c897810ebe9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227010f9fabcdd4cd786931c897810ebe9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Of course the commencement clause relates to the commencement of this bill, not other bills. The commencement date for the Spatial Planning Bill is in the Spatial Planning Bill, and there\u2019s no reference to any other bills in the commencement of this bill because this is just the commencement clause for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2794313424941b88e5e88e302bd0682\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2794313424941b88e5e88e302bd0682\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just to the Minister on clause 2(7)(b), which is quite a touching part to my heart, being involved in Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe and joint management agreements up and down Waikato and T\u0101maki-makau-rau: what are the expectations of iwi to change the Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe and/or joint management agreements, and has there been any consideration given to resourcing iwi in order to do this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022843dc12465c64d11903a989b1b17e8ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022843dc12465c64d11903a989b1b17e8ab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The intention is that those agreements be transitioned from the old Act to the new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022900af30184a34c3eb44e88b45146853d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022900af30184a34c3eb44e88b45146853d\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022fca52450e1c64eb2ac26ca2682c4ec29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fca52450e1c64eb2ac26ca2682c4ec29\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No one is seeking the call, so I\u2019ll go to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022006df6dd6e2f412784b71f4f93a1676a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000688\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002205c9e4c9892d484a920421ff83f50306\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205c9e4c9892d484a920421ff83f50306\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 on Supplementary Order Paper 389 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000690\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002225e3ca6b4ce440698f1c8b6906f64df8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225e3ca6b4ce440698f1c8b6906f64df8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 389 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000692\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000693\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000694\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d24ef257c220421fac78bd01db7f91c9\u0022\u003ESpatial Planning Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225013037f5bd641b68bcf2e89eb6e57e0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1111f5a6d284bb584eff85270c410c2\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e68bdb50ad734391bd3dabb74bb7b1d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e68bdb50ad734391bd3dabb74bb7b1d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Spatial Planning Bill. We begin the debate on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022727a0de9411e4c89b0ab062987c6e537\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022727a0de9411e4c89b0ab062987c6e537\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E It might assist the debate if I briefly explain that the purpose of the Spatial Planning Bill is to provide for regional spatial strategies that assist in achieving the purposes and system outcomes of the Natural and Built Environment Bill that we\u2019ve just referred to, and promote the integration and the performance of functions under that bill, the Land Transport Management Act, the Local Government Act, and the Water Services Act. The regional spatial strategies sit between the national planning framework and Natural and Built Environment Act plans, and they will assist with, amongst other things, the timely and cost-effective provision of infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229f8fb839bc27445d9cc7479f5ac19359\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f8fb839bc27445d9cc7479f5ac19359\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to ask the Minister, the Hon David Parker: one of the confusions that came around with this bill, the Spatial Planning Bill, was around integration and how local government, local communities, local hap\u016B and wh\u0101nau would have their say. I noticed that in Part 1, clause 4, it talks about the regional spatial strategies promoting integration, but then it goes on in (a) and (b), and further down to (i), to talk about integration with the Land Transport Management Act 2003, the Local Government Act 2002, the Water Services Entities Act 2022, and then, in clause 7, it talks about iwi and hap\u016B responsibilities in relation to te taiao and that \u201Cthis Act must recognise and provide for the responsibility and mana of each iwi and hap\u016B to protect and sustain the health and well-being of te taiao in accordance with the kawa, tikanga (including kaitiakitanga), and m\u0101tauranga in their rohe or takiw\u0101.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m actually seeing how this bill is talking about integration but I\u2019m just wondering, for the purposes of explaining to New Zealand listeners out there tonight, how this actually integrates on a democratic level with the Natural and Built Environment Bill, so that they can see how, when they have a view in their local community, it has its way into the spatial planning and then has a way back down into the spatial planning. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002246db87f56f1c46fa884ba28db544a16c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246db87f56f1c46fa884ba28db544a16c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member Barbara Kuriger for that question. The regional planning committee that puts together the regional spatial strategy is the same committee that is appointed for the Natural and Built Environment Bill\u2014soon to be Act\u2014plans, with one difference, and that is that, at the request of local government, central government have agreed there should be a central government representative on it, in part to make sure that central government can be brought to the party; to make sure that the likes of land transport plans can be better integrated with regional planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00227c9897ba40f54bce94b3f547979bf94c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c9897ba40f54bce94b3f547979bf94c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just seeking clarification, really, that this bill, the Spatial Planning Bill, will be taken part by part, and not as a whole. I don\u2019t know that we made a decision on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c295412b79249b6b270f5930ad5698b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I haven\u2019t had a motion or a request to the contrary. So, at the moment, it is part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f6cd15f28754a86a86e30dbc9cb25d5\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Would it be helpful to move\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc841916ef0a4ea8a607cf11d18b80e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is welcome to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229075276df44847b591383c11a0faa51b\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is not objecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b27be16280a347239b4bfc6816fc140c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: So you are seeking to have it heard as one\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4164e0d53a7490a850de83ef8ee65fa\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just want confirmation that it is. But I think the Minister is indicating that it will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233d9f32fc73f46be929b1f80dc724b99\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to seek leave for the debate to be heard as one part, we\u2019d be happy with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a245a7e5ab40b895b12299bb72bca4\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I seek leave, Mr Chair, that the bill be taken part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea6819db72584db7b0ea7160f3aa9d25\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the status quo until there is a move to the contrary. We remain with the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c808c752fb7429f95271e27580ec57f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. That\u2019s good to know, Mr Chair. So we\u2019re in Part 1 of the bill, and I wanted initially to start speaking about clause 3. At the Environment Committee, there were a number of submissions about why some parts of this bill explicitly referred to portions out of the Natural and Built Environment Bill and other provisions weren\u2019t explicitly referred to, and I\u2019m particularly talking about the concept of te Oranga o te Taiao, where it was explicitly referred to in this piece of legislation while other elements of the Natural and Built Environment Bill have not been. If the Minister could advise the committee of the whole House why that was the case, I\u2019d appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d600e5c9ec004747aa464c63155cc620\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d600e5c9ec004747aa464c63155cc620\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E It was thought desirable to align the purposes of the two Acts to avoid confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002218ddf819296b422496bdf68e2715cfc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218ddf819296b422496bdf68e2715cfc9\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, in looking at the purpose clause, at clause 3(b), the purpose of the bill is to \u201Cpromote integration in the performance of functions under the Natural and Built Environment Act 2022,\u201D\u2014they\u2019re rather presumptuous, considering it hasn\u2019t been passed yet, but we\u2019ll assume that that\u2019s the convention of the House in the way the bill is written\u2014\u201Cthe Land Transport Management Act 2003, the Local Government Act 2002, and\u201D\u2014another recently passed Act\u2014\u201Cthe Water Services Entities Act 2022.\u201D, which established four water services entities\u2014four entities. Now, Minister, the current Government has a bill before this House, the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill, which changes the number of entities from four to 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, given that the purpose of this bill is to promote integration between land transport, local government, and water service entities, how does the Minister see the integration working when he\u2019s told the House that instead of 67 districts and territorial authority plans and I think it\u2019s maybe 14 or 15 regional council plans, there will be just 15 plans, and yet there will be 10 water service entities whose geographical regions do not coincide with the 15 regions envisaged by the Natural and Built Environment Bill, or Act\u2014as it\u2019s referred to in the Spatial Planning Bill, or Act, as it may become? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo how does the Minister see the integration working when there\u2019s not four, but now 10 water service entities, and when at least one of those entities\u2014entity D, which includes a large part of the South Island\u2014coincides with the rohe or takiw\u0101 of Ng\u0101i Tahu, which also includes Seddon and Murchison, Minister, whereas the regional council boundaries and the regional planning boundaries envisaged by this bill actually include Seddon and Murchison in the Tasman-Marlborough District? It doesn\u2019t appear that it\u2019s going to be easy to integrate all of these different regions and these different infrastructure functions and planning functions, so, Minister, would you please explain how you see this working in practice? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225d9e01e897ff47f6b8212d57c234edda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d9e01e897ff47f6b8212d57c234edda\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Well, if there is a smaller number of water services entities to integrate with compared with a larger one, it will still work. It will work either way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also make the point that in respect of some local government boundaries, they reach over more than one regional council, with a case in point being the Waitaki District, which rests in part south of the Waitaki in the Otago Regional Council area and in part north of the Waitaki, which is in the Environment Canterbury regional council area. Both Acts enable that to be properly catered for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022d569c0b2540f481cb6534449057570ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d569c0b2540f481cb6534449057570ee\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to ask the Minister a question about clause 5, \u201CTiriti o Waitangi\u201D, \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties under this Act must give effect to the principles of te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u201D I want to know from the Minister what that actually means in practice, because it\u2019s a change from \u201Chave regard to\u201D. \u201CMust give effect to\u201D is strong language, and I want to know what the practical effect of that is going to be for communities trying to plan their regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f62fbc2019bb4c9baf39ecc8cc2024ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f62fbc2019bb4c9baf39ecc8cc2024ee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Hopefully, in the end, it\u2019ll end up with less inconsistent practice across the country. When the Resource Management Act was passed, the \u201Ctake into account the principles of the Treaty\u201D clause was intended, according to the debates at the time, to ensure a role for M\u0101ori within their area to express their views and have that properly taken into account. It didn\u2019t roll that way in practice, and, therefore, as a consequence, we\u2019ve had a lot of complex and varied bespoke Treaty settlement arrangements, including those passed by that member\u2019s party, for the Waikato River Authority, the Taranaki planning committee, and for a myriad of other different formulations\u2014and we would hope that there is less need for bespoke arrangements in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAs to the meaning of it, there\u2019s lots of jurisprudence around the Conservation Act. In reference to the meaning of \u201Cte Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D, it actually refers to, in effect, both versions of the Treaty\u2014te reo version and the English version.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd9675d102634865bbafbc0b2706c4fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd9675d102634865bbafbc0b2706c4fe\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to ask the Minister about clause 7, which follows on from \u201CTiriti o Waitangi\u201D. Interestingly, the heading note for clauses 5 through 7 says \u201CTiriti o Waitangi and other matters\u201D, which sort of makes it out like clause 7 is just another matter, which I think is an interesting form of phraseology. \u201CIwi and hap\u016B responsibilities in relation to te taiao\u201D\u2014it does strike me that the breadth of this of this clause is large, and worryingly large, I think. \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing duties and functions under this Act\u201D\u2014all persons\u2014\u201Cmust recognise and provide for the responsibility and mana of each iwi and hap\u016B to protect and sustain the health and well-being of te taiao in accordance with the kawa, tikanga (including kaitiakitanga), and m\u0101tauranga in their rohe or takiw\u0101.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, I want to know from the Minister if he\u2019s concerned about the potential for judicial review as a result of the breadth of this clause. \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing duties and functions \u2026 must recognise and provide for the responsibility and mana of each iwi and hap\u016B\u201D. I\u2019ve just read it out, and members of the public listening can read it out for themselves and read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe possibility of legal action to judicially review the people exercising these powers, claiming that they are not recognising or not providing, or they might be recognising and providing, but they\u2019re not providing for the responsibility and the mana of each iwi to protect\u2014which, as we\u2019ve noted in the Natural and Built Environment Bill debate, has a particular strong meaning in resource management law\u2014and sustain the health and wellbeing of te taiao in accordance with the kawa, tikanga, and m\u0101tauranga in their rohe or takiw\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, the potential for judicial\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb1cd74be8fb4e7bb8776587a680ce44\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Intervention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc0b98ae75be42feb6a6c6234bf0f1c0\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014intervention; Scott Simpson\u2019s right. Or, at least, it\u2019s not even so much about the judicial intervention; it\u2019s about the potential for judicial review to stymie the quite legitimate aims and aspirations of spatial planning I think is extraordinary. I do really worry, Minister, about this provision. I think we are going to see endless litigation and judicial review of this. So I just wonder if the Minister is also worried about it; and if he is worried about it, what he\u2019s planning to do about it, and if he\u2019s not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002253809ae1069c4873b34c924002d5d28a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253809ae1069c4873b34c924002d5d28a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E This clause, as explained to me by officials, is recognising the responsibility of iwi and hap\u016B to protect the environment. The M\u0101ori world view is that they don\u2019t just have obligations to themselves; they have obligations to protect the environment, and this is what that gives voice to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022be6569ba163e4ad9a00a04ca4d0b4397\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be6569ba163e4ad9a00a04ca4d0b4397\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, just to follow up on that, I mean that doesn\u2019t really answer the question, to be honest, but it says iwi and hap\u016B responsibilities in relation to te taiao, but that\u2019s not what the actual words of the clause say. It says, \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing duties and functions under this Act\u201D. So everyone is affected. Although the heading of clause 7 says \u201CIwi and hap\u016B responsibilities\u201D, it\u2019s actually about everybody: \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing duties and functions under this Act must recognise and provide\u201D\u2014so it\u2019s everyone. Everyone who does anything or anyone who exercises any power under this Act and performs a duty\u2014and the Act imposes a variety of duties, which we\u2019ll get into, and functions. This is a clause with extraordinary breath. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s everyone exercising powers and performing duties and functions is subject to a range of obligations. It\u2019s \u201Cmust\u201D, not \u201Cmay\u201D. They \u201Cmust\u201D. They \u201Cmust recognise and provide for the responsibility and mana of each iwi\u201D\u2014each iwi\u2014not a general commitment to Te Tiriti or the Treaty, not a general kind of commitment to, you know, engage with M\u0101oridom or the M\u0101ori world view, leaving aside that issue, which the Minister doesn\u2019t really expand on. It\u2019s each iwi and hap\u016B: \u201C\u2026. to protect and sustain \u2026 in accordance with the kawa, tikanga (including kaitiakitanga), and m\u0101tauranga in their rohe or takiw\u0101.\u201D  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe odds of someone not doing this, frankly, are high and the odds of someone turning up to court and saying \u201CYou, Mr Decision Maker\u201D or \u201CYou, Mr Regional Council\u201D or \u201CYou, Mr Regional Planning Committee\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257b353534ac14b08a404e55f825a26e3\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Or Mrs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade05b831466491792175f55b637a678\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Or Mrs\u2014thank you; a very good point, thank you, Mr Court\u2014\u201Cyou haven\u2019t done this. You haven\u2019t recognised and provided for the local iwi, each local iwi or local hap\u016B to protect and sustain te Taiao. You haven\u2019t done that.\u201D The odds of that happening, I would say, are frankly reasonably high\u2014reasonably high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4140c88015b4481808234aa9f5b5c36\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d bet on it\u2014I\u2019d put money on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e61f6c43ed14028bffe7e8e63bbaad8\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d bet on it, says Simon Court\u2014I\u2019d bet on it. [Interruption] Well, look, I\u2019m not Kieran McAnulty. I\u2019m not a betting man\u2014I\u2019m not a betting man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a286b47888c1481e9ae30fc93e7d2f79\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Kieran McAnulty is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a9f3456a1c45ccaceca0d4c5f7df15\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Kieran McAnulty is. He\u2019s not in the House, but I reckon he\u2019d have a wager. He\u2019d have a wager on it, I reckon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022816edb3b73984cfaabc34b822a47505d\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s the TAB guy\u2014he\u2019s the TAB guy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022780176b9d21c411b92f5aa55b936ea33\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014oh, I apologise. I know what you\u2019re about to say, Mr Utikere. It was in jest\u2014it was in jest. But, anyway, we\u2019re away from the point. But it\u2019s a serious issue\u2014it\u2019s a serious issue. The odds of this happening are high, as I said just before, and invite the Minister to address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe potential for judicial review as a result of this clause is huge, is massive. And we\u2019ve had enough litigation, frankly, through the Resource Management Act. We need less of it, not more of it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286db91dcde414624a659f29c94c0eec3\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4405e3ae2004859bd230e06f6b79b90\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and has the Minister\u2014well, \u201CThat\u2019s right.\u201D So you see the Associate Minister\u2019s agreeing with me. So has the Minister or indeed herself\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b819197456b4e7e8394142033a4efbe\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: She always agrees with you, Bish. She always agrees with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022037637da8be1413f8af1c5917244f3d2\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, she doesn\u2019t always agree with me. I wish that was true. Has the Minister considered\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022791dc170b7c14089bde00e498a3af570\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: She might even be voting National this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227407970a7e7e40baad8ca6ff8ebdf61a\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Because we would\u2014I don\u2019t think she\u2019s voting National. We would support a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) to narrow the scope of this clause. I\u2019ll say that on the record. We would support an SOP advanced by the Government if the Government realises that this clause is too large and wide in its scope. We would support an SOP that would narrow it down in the interests of good government\u2014in the interests of good government because that\u2019s what we\u2019re all about on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022957953a3b6b14a7ea2e5b346d656ab3a\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re here to help!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eda6c2d7822434cbe82cd783d35bfc1\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re here to help, that\u2019s right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b486216671ac4ae18d7e179f927449f6\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Here to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e69690b2d74c4ea88c1cd22012503ac7\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Bishop and Scott Simpson are here to help. So if the Government wants to move an SOP\u2014in fact, I might draft one up now. I might draft one up now\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dad2c39b062e4e76b2cfe6d50f99cb7c\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Sounds good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2c690e4547445dcaaf04f94bb361cc3\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, Simon Court\u2019s saying he\u2019ll support it. The Greens, I don\u2019t think will. I\u2019ll go and have a chat to Eugenie Sage, but I don\u2019t reckon she will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c15ec94fea94a99a9a3f709ca8802e6\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s worth a try.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa02f0b3680498fa080bd4f4476b815\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but she might; you never know. But if the Labour Party wants to get on board with good government, we invite them to join us. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022645c0e74e0b44c65b7b4b3b40f734f8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022645c0e74e0b44c65b7b4b3b40f734f8b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In the view of the Government, clause 7 assists with the interpretation of clause 5. Without clause 7, clause\u00A05 would be without guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, further guidance is provided in clause 24 of the bill, which says that \u201CThe regional planning committee must have \u2026 regard to the following, to the extent relevant to the regional spatial strategy\u201D and that includes, at clause 24(2)(c), \u201Cany planning document that is\u2014(i) recognised by an iwi authority or a group that represents hap\u016B; and (ii) [is] provided or available to the committee before the strategy is adopted\u201D. So there is some further form given to that further down in the more specific provisions in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn addition, one of the ways in which certainty is removed as to whether you listen to the right people is that there are specific clauses in both the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill that say that the councils involved can rely upon the list of entities who have got a relevant interest which is maintained by Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, which at the moment, is an incomplete list that cannot be relied upon. That becomes a code so that if the local authorities rely upon that list at the time that they\u2019re putting together the spatial plan and someone else comes along later and says, \u201CYou should have listened to me as well\u201D, it\u2019s too late if they weren\u2019t on the list\u2014although the list can be updated for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022e81609295edf4641b23f7c891b892014\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e81609295edf4641b23f7c891b892014\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I think it\u2019s really important that we tease out what are some of the practical implications of this clause, clause 7. But before I get to my questions on clause 7, I just want to ask you to reflect on clause 5 because you\u2019ve just stated that clause 7 is necessary to help decision makers\u2014\u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties under this proposed Act\u201D need clause 7 to help them interpret clause 5. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut Minister, isn\u2019t it true that in response to a question, a written question I\u2019ve asked you on another matter about transport, when I\u2019ve asked what are the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi to which you referred, you said those principles and whether people agree with them or not, this was your answer: \u201CThe principles include the principle of partnership, active protection, and mutual benefit\u201D, according to the answers you\u2019ve given me. So wouldn\u2019t having those principles\u2014which you clearly understand, and which you referred to having been derived from other jurisprudence, other legislation even\u2014be sufficient to help decision makers understand what you mean by give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi in clause 5?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002207222c7fc8714016a937ae68836c04ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207222c7fc8714016a937ae68836c04ff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The phrase \u201Cthe principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D is used in a lot of legislation. The alternative is to refer to the Treaty of Waitangi directly. The view of the courts has been that the reference to the principles is more practical and more able to move with the circumstances of the day. I don\u2019t think there is much\u2014well, if there is controversy with the use of the phrase \u201Cthe principles of Te Titiri o Waitangi\u201D, then that criticism can be made to many, many other statutes, including those that were passed by the last National-ACT Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00221cf0cb3124a24380b3cf70d611d8af7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cf0cb3124a24380b3cf70d611d8af7a\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, that\u2019s fascinating; because now I\u2019m concerned, as other people may be, that while you accept there are principles\u2014which are defined in other legislation and which might help decision makers or those exercising functions and duties to interpret what that means\u2014clause 7 potentially creates significant confusion. Because in addition to the principles of \u201Cpartnership, active protection, and mutual benefit\u201D\u2014which you\u2019ve described to me are the principles in replies to written questions on transport\u2014people exercising powers, performing functions and duties, now must recognise and provide for responsibility and mana of each iwi and hap\u016B to protect, uphold, and sustain the wellbeing of te taiao, and that\u2019s \u201Cin accordance with kawa, tikanga (including kaitiakitanga), and m\u0101tauranga in their rohe or takiw\u0101.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, this creates the opportunity\u2014as Mr Bishop pointed out\u2014for a whole lot of judicial review and challenges to decisions. Minister, I want to offer you a practical solution, and maybe it\u2019s something that we could put in a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) and that we might be able to get agreement on. In fact, Minister, you might wish to propose it as a Government SOP, which is the responsibilities that decision makers should have to consult with iwi or hap\u016B or even down to individual marae\u2014where plans and projects affect their private property\u2014should actually be specified here, rather than in these general terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI give you an example: if we can turn back time, and we can imagine the thinking of those decision makers in Auckland who decided in their wisdom to locate the M\u0101ngere waste water sewage treatment plant and the oxidation ponds for that plant right in front of a marae back in the 1960s. They wouldn\u2019t do that these days, because would be obliged to take account\u2014and not just the environmental effects but the effects on private property owners who would border that coastal area. But in Auckland, there are around about potentially up to 20 iwi and hap\u016B who claim mana whenua in the Auckland region, and my experience of seeking feedback from those groups for infrastructure projects in a role that I previously held at Auckland Council is that many of them were happy to give examples of what would be acceptable and what wouldn\u2019t, and inevitably, those examples matched up almost perfectly with what would be acceptable or not for any private property owner affected by an infrastructure development or a planning rule over their private property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, wouldn\u2019t it be far more practical to replace this clause 7 with, \u201CPersons exercising powers, performing duties and functions should consult with iwi, hap\u016B, and potentially down to individual marae, to seek their feedback on planning provisions which affect their private property and the exercise of their rights\u2014including potentially their rights; the customary rights such as to collect seafood and shellfish\u201D\u2014just like the people who were on that marae in M\u0101ngere who used to collect seafood and shellfish before a waste water treatment plant was built right in front of their property. Shouldn\u2019t clause 7 simply say, \u201Cconsult with the people affected, get their feedback, and incorporate that into plans and primarily with respect to effects on their private or potentially collectively owned property\u201D, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d168805be24e4f3dbe297e9ae2b27092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d168805be24e4f3dbe297e9ae2b27092\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m reading from the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act 2009. The purpose of that Act, at section 3(f), reads: \u201Cto establish arrangements to promote issues of significance for mana whenua groups and mataawaka for Tamaki Makaurau.\u201D Seems that it\u2019s OK if the ACT Party does it, but it\u2019s not OK if we do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8489ee7c6674e06b1530970bff72b07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8489ee7c6674e06b1530970bff72b07\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. I did raise this clause or a similar clause in the Natural and Built Environment Bill. I would like to go back to it. This is a different bill. I have to ask the same question I did in the Natural and Built Environment Bill, which is there is a principle in the law that everybody should be able to know the law. But under clause 5, \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties under this Act must give effect to the principles of te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u201D But we don\u2019t know what those principles are\u2014the Minister\u2019s admitted that earlier\u2014so it\u2019s not possible for someone to know the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo does the Minister agree that it\u2019s not possible to know the law in this case? How does that make this a workable proposition? I think it\u2019s incredibly confusing. We should have one law for all and it should be able to be known by everybody. But it can\u2019t be when the principles are\u2014as I recall under the Natural and Built Environment Bill at select committee when the officials were asked about what the principles were, they said, \u201COh, they\u2019re evolving.\u201D Well, that\u2019s not a very satisfactory answer, given that this is law we\u2019re writing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThis is law that New Zealanders will have to live with under almost everything that they do. How is it possible to know the law? We are creating a massive rod for our own back. It\u2019s going to have an incredibly deleterious effect on our economy, quite frankly. It\u2019ll be good for some, but even the legal profession don\u2019t like this, because they also have clients that they have to present, and how can they do that when they don\u2019t know the law? It\u2019s not possible to know the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo was this actually considered when the Minister gave instructions to officials to write this legislation? Was there any work or advice that came back from officials that this would be an unworkable provision, and, if so, why did the Minister persist with it? I think we deserve to understand the rationale for this provision in this and other legislation. Simply saying that the courts say this is better than referring to the actual Treaty, instead they want to refer to the principles, that\u2019s not a good enough answer. Just because it\u2019s been done that way, doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s right. So, Minister, we\u2019re all eagerly awaiting your response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e284a5ba1d524d4796d710333d5a6af0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e284a5ba1d524d4796d710333d5a6af0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Those are the same words that are in the Resource Management Act that that member\u2019s party failed to repeal over nine years and in many other Acts that that member\u2019s party over the years have supported. Indeed, I read out that part of that section 8 of the Reserve Management Act, which says decision makers \u201Cshall take into account the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D. So the concept of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi is frequently used in the statute. The change here is not to the reference to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi or the Treaty of Waitangi but the duty to give effect to them rather than take into account, and there are precedents for that on the statute book.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIf only we listened to everything that the National Party did, we\u2019d be great! Well, I\u2019m afraid I disagree with that simplistic and incorrect proposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00226f52557b77904ef69e3eb13abf43f8ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f52557b77904ef69e3eb13abf43f8ec\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. As a former student of these matters\u2014and a practising lawyer and manager of a Resource Management Act (RMA) team\u2014I\u2019ve had some great challenges in understanding the RMA framework and working through it, and it\u2019s been a process of evolution, particularly with terms like \u201Ckaitiakitanga\u201D, which weren\u2019t in the legislation until the 1991 RMA legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s taken some 30 years to get a little bit of jurisprudential evolution of how those terms should be interpreted, and they\u2019ve still got some uncertainties in RMA practice. You know, particularly in a place like Auckland\u2014which our colleague Simon Court mentioned before\u2014you\u2019ve got 19 iwi, many of whom have different practices or protocols in relation to the exercise of their kaitiakitanga. There\u2019s sometimes an overlap and there\u2019s sometimes a contrast, and RMA practitioners, along with developers, have to manage those contrasts and those overlaps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EWell, in this legislation as drafted\u2014the draft legislation\u2014not only do we have kaitiakitanga; we have now introduced these other terms: mana, kawa, m\u0101tauranga, and tikanga. Minister Parker, you\u2019ve referred to the nexus between clauses 5, Te Tiriti o Waitangi clause; and 7, the \u201CIwi and hap\u016B responsibilities in relation to te taiao\u201D, but one of the challenges that you face when you put in words and phrases like \u201Cmana\u201D and \u201Ckawa\u201D and \u201Cm\u0101tauranga\u201D is none of those three terms actually appear in Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and, deliberately, mana was excluded from the drafting of Te Tiriti o Waitangi because it was of such a depth and breadth that it was inappropriate, hence we have a different type of term, and that\u2019s known as \u201Ctino rangatiratanga\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ESo when we start opining on that term \u201Cmana\u201D, you\u2019ve got a breadth and a depth that some people think it might mean \u201Cpower\u201D but it has multiple faces, and so we don\u2019t get a sense from reading this drafting whether or not we are talking to mana whenua, mana moana, mana atua, mana tangata, mana wahine\u2014which I get reminded of at home on a regular basis\u2014and my personal favourite, mana rangatahi. When we draft words like \u201Cmana\u201D into legislation like this, it can take quite a number of distinct pathways which may not have been intended by us as legislators, and it certainly won\u2019t be interpreted easy by those that sit on the judicial benches. Again, the potential for judicial review just on that term alone is significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENow, tikanga: tikanga has had some gravity in the interpretation of the common law, and it has been referred to in a couple of pieces of legislation, like the RMA and I think also the w\u0101nanga sections of the Education Act, tikanga and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. But, again, they create all sorts of interpretation possibilities, which we can be curious around but without further clarity or interpretational guidance within the legislation, I fear, given the context in which I\u2019ve operated and as a person who continues to hold a practising certificate, that it gives too wide a berth to the judiciary and to practitioners, and also to random men and their M\u0101ori, to run decision making down to doing nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EOne of the questions that I\u2019d like to pose to the Minister is: what is your definition of kawa\u2014because there is no definition of kawa in this drafting\u2014and how does kawa distinctly differ from mana and tikanga? I think with that sort of question, if we get a credible response, we\u2019ll be in a far better position to say, actually, this is looking really interesting and it\u2019s something we can interrogate further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0755ac694cc4f1a9012c7245f5d6a26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0755ac694cc4f1a9012c7245f5d6a26\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7ebdc9241ce471cb26c8a11c75bdc3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7ebdc9241ce471cb26c8a11c75bdc3c\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve just got quite a short question, Minister, and it\u2019s just in regards to clause 5. I\u2019m curious about why it says, \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties under this Act must give effect to the principles of te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u201D It does not say \u201Cthe Treaty of Waitangi\u201D. Is there a particular reason why it only says \u201Cte Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D and not \u201Cthe Treaty of Waitangi\u201D, or is that a matter of no moment to the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022731d98ea48304421a41c34a7295bb6cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022731d98ea48304421a41c34a7295bb6cd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a matter of considerable import, and it is dealt with in the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBEA), which refers to the definition as set out in the Treaty of Waitangi Act, which makes reference to both te reo M\u0101ori and English versions, and that is carried through into this bill by the definitions clause\u2014section 7 of the NBEA\u2014which says that if there is a definition which is also in the NBEA, unless there\u2019s a different definition in there, the NBEA definition applies. So, in fact, the definition refers to both \u201Cte Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D and \u201Cthe Treaty of Waitangi\u201D\u2014as the Treaty of Waitangi Act does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00225092533d0bc846249a47d0a39afec04f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225092533d0bc846249a47d0a39afec04f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m hoping that the Minister will take the opportunity to give a considered response to my colleague Tama Potaka\u2019s very worthy dissertation and good questions, because I thought that Tama Potaka asked some very pertinent points that I think are deserving of a response from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to go back to clause 3(b) and clause 4 in this Part 1. The Minister, in an earlier contribution in the debate, made it clear why the water services entity legislation was not included at that point. But at select committee, there were a number of submitters who thought that it would be good to include the Climate Change Response Act 2002 in clauses 3(b) and 4. I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister why that option wasn\u2019t taken and whether he would consider doing so at this late stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002292cd2beac50046f6a89acafa90881dc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292cd2beac50046f6a89acafa90881dc3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 3(b) lists what are essentially infrastructure management statutes: the Natural and Built Environment Bill, the Land Transport Management Act, the Local Government Act, and the Water Services Entities Act. The zero carbon Act and related legislation is much broader and touches, amongst other things, those Acts, but also a lot of other things, so we thought the list is best left as in clause 3(b).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4b0bca4fabe4f01aa8044e945469a7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4b0bca4fabe4f01aa8044e945469a7f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I don\u2019t feel that the committee and people listening at home have received a sufficient explanation as to why clause 7 is required. My parliamentary colleague Tama Potaka raised a very good question: what is the meaning of \u201Ctikanga\u201D. This clause 7 will apply to all people subject to the plans made under the Spatial Planning Bill should it become law\u2014all people; not just iwi and hap\u016B. It will apply to all. If we look at the precedence of the clauses here, before we get to the clauses about how plans are made and what matters must be taken into account, we have this clause 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I want to ask you: do you consider, do officials consider\u2014since they\u2019re offering you assistance\u2014whether beliefs and principles of a spiritual nature, which might be encompassed by kawa or tikanga or m\u0101tauranga, do they take precedence over people\u2019s private property rights, over the right to use their land, and over those who would be developing infrastructure or pretty much anything, a quarry, any type of building, a distribution centre, a road network that links customers to goods? Will upholding or providing for the responsibility and mana of each iwi and hap\u016B, in accordance with clause\u00A07, take precedence over the needs of communities to provide for their infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, how could it be that beliefs and principles of a spiritual nature, which cannot possibly be law, a way of life that a group of people in our society believe wholeheartedly but which cannot possibly become law that applies to the rest of New Zealanders\u2014how is it possible that in clause 7 here, these concepts are incorporated in a way that would mean anyone exercising powers, performing duties and functions, under this bill must have regard for these spiritual matters when they\u2019re making decisions about planning, resource management, and environmental matters? Minister, would you care to explain how on earth this has happened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022366ece70335b4a41b1fcfad1af98c56a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022366ece70335b4a41b1fcfad1af98c56a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CTikanga\u201D is defined in the Natural and Built Environment Bill and carried through, and there\u2019s also carry-over from the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the focus of these legislations, it is on the physical, not the religious. That is made clear by the scheme of both bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00225721fca3d8e64e1b9e2c038b6776c0bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225721fca3d8e64e1b9e2c038b6776c0bf\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002218321caa361e4149b8bcbdef15e15dbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218321caa361e4149b8bcbdef15e15dbc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendment to Supplementary Order Paper 390 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 398 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229ec5ce3894a2461db195f2d1a0b892a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ec5ce3894a2461db195f2d1a0b892a8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022be6bfe16ae714868b06e6047d147a2d1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002262c9e1a7dcde4e348f4d016db4237197\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2, Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000794\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000795\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe36e6e249d64586aed23356a948832e\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220347bb1901f743e98b99da7a8501f2a5\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b17f3bb8f25149559e6ca17e47d63e0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b17f3bb8f25149559e6ca17e47d63e0b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill and reports progress. The committee has also further considered the Natural and Built Environment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Spatial Planning Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002250c04770d9bb48f1ada90b307fa4b7de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250c04770d9bb48f1ada90b307fa4b7de\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is suspended, and I will resume the Chair at 9 a.m. tomorrow for the extended sitting to consider members\u2019 orders of the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230801bbd226c7c8474e4a8e0f20cb8ce2700f000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002232d19876ebfc42c9ac09dde504e8d5c3\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 1 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf1f8adbfab84ac385ce01fd313b30e0\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 2 August 2023)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022918d93a71ada426cbe2074a7bf2589be\u0022\u003ECompanies (Directors\u2019 Duties) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022facc7f0d1e17400192681bd406f9a353\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00220361df7c9aea433b8aa71f316034b939\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220361df7c9aea433b8aa71f316034b939\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: M\u014Drena. The House is resumed for the extended sitting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002213d246e9db2d4efe8c5a78777891e19c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213d246e9db2d4efe8c5a78777891e19c\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Companies (Directors\u2019 Duties) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure to take a call on this bill. This bill has had an unusual journey to this, its third reading. It started with a common misconception articulated in this House that directors have a duty at all costs to return a profit. These narrow views about the role of business in our society serve no one. Just like it is often said that no person is an island, it is also true that no company operates entirely on its own, without effect or regard to the environment or the community around them. Many businesses recognise this and act responsibly with consideration not just to the profitability of their company but also to the environmental impact, the true nature of their supply chain, and the people who live and work nearby or who are impacted by the business that they carry out. This is along the same lines of a lot of other work that has been done in this space. For example, the modern slavery announcement that was made by the Minister Carmel Sepuloni last week, looking at the integrity of our supply chains and how as businesses within New Zealand or operating in New Zealand they have the responsibility to do better and to make sure that there is no exploitation in the work that they do. This bill is along similar lines and looks to the future of conducting business responsibly. I commend the businesses who are already undertaking these kinds of assessments and conduct in their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWhat is achieved, then, by this bill, is to provide clarity and security to those directors who were, until the passage of this bill, unsure or unclear about the scope of their duties. It doesn\u2019t require directors to consider environmental, social, and governance matters. It doesn\u2019t increase compliance costs. It doesn\u2019t create new duties, and I want to be clear about that. This simple but important bill clarifies a small but significant point that profit is not the only factor important to responsible businesses. This bill is so straightforward that I can outline again, for the benefit of the House, exactly what it does. It adds a new subsection into clause 131 of the Companies Act. After the passage of this bill, 131(5) will state \u201CTo avoid doubt, in considering the best interests of a company or holding company for the purposes of this section, a director may consider matters other than the maximisation of profit (for example, environmental, social, and governance matters).\u201D That is the entirety of the change that this bill introduces. It clarifies the best interests of a company could or may be to consider other matters other than the maximisation of profit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThis bill was further strengthened by the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) I introduced at the committee stage outlining that environmental, social, and governance\u2014or ESG\u2014matters could be considered. I felt that this clarification was needed in order to provide context for the type of considerations directors may take into account. ESG matters are mentioned in section 129 of the KiwiSaver Act 2006 when dealing with responsible investor statements. So this concept has precedence already in New Zealand law and it is my view that it will continue to be used by the business sector when looking at factors other than the maximisation of profit. Members will also be aware that the United Kingdom has also introduced a similar change to their Companies Act in section\u00A0172, all the way back in 2006. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, members opposite will no doubt say that this law isn\u2019t needed, that companies can already act responsibly taking wider ESG factors into account. And while companies could do that, the law in this area was not as clear as it could be on this point. This law provides the clarity needed. Members opposite have also accused us of virtue signalling, and I want to unpack that a little bit. \u201CVirtue signalling\u201D is a derogatory phase that implies that the only reason one is undertaking an activity is to be seen to be good. This bill actually clarifies and affirms the right of directors to actually do good. It gives confidence to action, not just signals of good intentions, as alleged. It is good for companies to feel they can consider more than their financial bottom line if they want to. It is necessary to have clear law for it to be accessible and useful to the general population. This bill enables both these things to the benefit of our legislative regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, some members and submitters to the select committee wish we had gone further and made these considerations mandatory. Although I have sympathy for this view, I think that because of the substantive policy work involved with this type of change it is best suited to a Government bill\u2014if there was will to go ahead with this type of change\u2014rather than a member\u2019s bill. But I want to recognise those submitters who raised those concerns in the select committee process, and those across the House who engaged in this matter, especially my colleague Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, who put an SOP up on that matter in the committee stage. So I thank them for their interest in the bill and their engagement with it, but I think that this bill, as it is written, strikes the most appropriate balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI want to thank Duncan Webb\u2014who first put this bill in the biscuit tin\u2014for this idea, for his support, and for his courage to improve and clarify the law in this area. I also want to thank Rachel Brooking for her leadership of this bill throughout the select committee stage. I also want to thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee; you may have crossed half this bill out, but I think the bill we have before us today, that is about to become part of our law, is better and stronger for your attention. I also want to thank the chair of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, Naisi Chen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ETo the submitters on this bill: you may not have supported this bill\u2014some of you may have wanted it to go further\u2014but I hope you know that we listened to your concerns and considered the feedback, and your submissions had an impact on the final bill that will be passed in the House today. I also want to thank Alana Belin from the Parliamentary Counsel Office for her assistance with the drafting of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EHaving good law, especially in relation to the conduct of business, will help New Zealand businesses to grow and will assist individual company directors to have the confidence to have a more holistic view of the impact of their activities in the world around them. I therefore commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00226f51eafd651543a4a069e1c6fb27b41d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f51eafd651543a4a069e1c6fb27b41d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Meitaki maata. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022908948d0e691444695ced6a454460d4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022908948d0e691444695ced6a454460d4e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the third reading of the Companies (Directors\u2019 Duties) Amendment Bill. That speech reminded me almost of the valedictory speech\u2014there were so many people thanked by the member. That\u2019s what came to mind as she was speaking. I\u2019m concerned that she feels that way, but none the less I feel that this bill should be consigned to the dustbin. This bill is a waste of Parliament\u2019s time. This is a vainglorious bill, originally proposed by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, and what on earth was he doing? I think it was an absolute mistake for the current member Camilla Belich to take this bill over from Dr Webb. It is a shocker. It is a waste of Parliament\u2019s time, and I will explain why. We have repeatedly pointed out why people think it is a waste of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI want to take members back to why this bill original arose. It actually arose as a result of Mr Robertson writing a totally inappropriate letter to the directors of Air New Zealand, as a major shareholder in terms of representing the Government\u2019s shareholding in Air New Zealand, and setting out in a page and a half a letter specifying and imposing his views\u2014his personal views, although framed as the Government\u2019s view\u2014of how the Air New Zealand board should operate should it take the additional money that was provided by the Government during the COVID crisis. And it was wrong. That intervention by a shareholder on the board, an independent board\u2014and it should have been an independent board. All boards should be independent and should operate in the best interests of all their shareholders, not just one and certainly not the dominant shareholder\u2014Mr Robertson inappropriately did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think that out of that, Dr Webb suddenly had this brainwave that he had to therefore make sure that every board in New Zealand operated according to the same framework that Mr Robertson set out in his letter. It is wrong. It is actually wrong. And the reason why is the bill replaces a definition. Clause 4 inserts subsection (5) into section 131, and it states, \u201C(5) To avoid doubt, in considering the best interests of a company or holding company for the purposes of this section, a director may consider matters other than the maximisation of profit\u201D, and it goes on to talk about environmental, social, and governance matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe thing is\u2014and this is what I find staggering listening to members from the Government, and I include members from the Greens, although they seem to pop in and out from Opposition to being part of the Government\u2014that absolute lack of commercial nous about how boards operate and how companies operate. I would suggest to the members that boards always do take into account a range of factors. The first and primary factor is, of course, maximisation of profits, because unless companies survive and continue to operate, then they go bust and then people lose their jobs and a lot of money is lost. That is always the primary objective and that is always an important consideration. But it is wrong to conclude or suggest, which I seem to repeatedly hear from the Government members, that that is the only thing that boards take into account. It is not. And the reason is that they can take into account much wider aspects and certainly environmental, social, and governance aspects because it\u2019s the right thing to do. It\u2019s the right thing to do for their companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing, the reason why they do it, is that often their customers demand it. And so there\u2019s already an influence on those companies because to be successful, you have to deliver products and goods and services to your customers at the right price and the right time, all those sort of things. Of course, the strong push from consumers now is a very important driver of business activity. And no director is stupid enough not to have regard to customer expectations or demands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe third thing is that many of their staff advocate for those types of considerations, and we\u2019ve seen that increasingly over recent years. Those are the issues and the drivers that all directors take into account when managing their businesses. [Interruption] Here we go. I see the Labour members\u2014of course, they\u2019ve all sat on many boards!\u2014saying, \u201COh, that\u2019s wrong. He doesn\u2019t know what he\u2019s talking about.\u201D Well, actually, I think they\u2019re wrong, and I\u2019ll tell you who else thinks they\u2019re wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225c526be71c147e28da3951aed215826\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Go and read about your mates at Pike River.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5608d73b81449b8915c6943416fe66f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: The Legislation Design and Advisory Committee thought you were wrong, members over there. It thought you were wrong, Mr O\u2019Connor, and what it said was it recommends that this bill was not necessary and that the bill as introduced could have unintended consequences, and we strongly agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll go on a little bit further for the benefit of Mr O\u2019Connor, who seems very active in this conversation. Because the bill does not\u2014[Interruption] This is what they wrote, Mr\u00A0O\u2019Connor, and this is what the office of the select committee wrote\u2014because the bill does not does not permit or prohibit any activity, it will not have any legal effect. The lack of a legal effect brings into question whether this bill or legislation is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThat is why it\u2019s a waste of time\u2014that\u2019s the first point. It goes on to say, Mr O\u2019Connor, that the committee could consider whether there are more appropriate mechanisms for giving effect to a particular policy goal. And the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee\u2014not one of those shonky little committees that you normally don\u2019t have regard for\u2014considers that there is at least a possibility that the addition of specific environment, social, and governance factors\u2014which, of course, is in the Supplementary Order Paper the member put forward\u2014as considerations of directors could encourage the evolution of judicial review into the realm of individual director decision-making, a suggestion the courts have always been clear to avoid or at least to attempt to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThat is why this is a dangerous piece of legislation. It is not necessary. Company directors already have regard for it. It\u2019s a waste of Parliament\u2019s time. Worse than that, it potentially could have legal ramifications, which are an even worse prospect. I know this bill is going to pass because we\u2019ve got a Government that is blinded by this, but I hope it doesn\u2019t lead to adverse impacts for companies, because although Labour members have this view around directors, those companies employ lots of people, and when companies fail, they lose their jobs, and that is the type of adverse outcome that we may see out of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EEveryone seems opposed to it other than Labour members who think it\u2019s a good thing because they\u2019re slavishly following some bill that should have been thrown out years ago and should never have been allowed to go through their Labour caucus. It just shows how lacking in commercial nous the Labour members are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u002284594c2f161a4681b0e281c843966596\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284594c2f161a4681b0e281c843966596\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Good morning, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to rise and take a call on the Companies (Directors\u2019 Duties) Amendment Bill. We\u2019ve already heard in previous sessions about Gordon Gekko and his call that greed is good, and that is around about the time I started studying business. I\u2019m very, very aware of the capitalist model that I was taught about in the 80s, and the wonderful thing about this bill is that it actually is a liberating bill. It is an enabling bill for those of us who appreciate that business has a part to play in the way that we deploy our resources in our economy. This bill liberates us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EYou know, many of us know that directors have\u2014one of their core jobs is to be compliant, make sure their companies are compliant; more than 10 Acts that they have to be responsive to. To codify the idea that profit maximisation doesn\u2019t have to be the only thing that drives you as a company director is a fabulous thing. It is appropriate to consider issues other than profit maximisation. It\u2019s really disappointing to hear the other side of the House look at business in such a blunt and simplistic way that the only way that a company can succeed is by maximising profit, and if they\u2019re not maximising profit, then they\u2019re going to completely collapse and there will be hundreds of people made unemployed. That is such a lazy way to look at companies. Absolutely it is a lazy way to look at companies. We\u2019re hearing those words from the other side of the House. Companies are able to pat their heads and rub their tummies at the same time. They can be successful and profitable, and they can look at the greater good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe young people that we represent here, because they cannot be here for themselves, will be pleased to know that we are enabling companies to better consider intergenerational impacts. For those of us who live in Taranaki who are dealing with legacy pollution issues every day, we know that when a company can actually say, \u201CYou know, there\u2019s a piece of legislation that says it\u2019s all right for us to not have to maximise our profits today, because we want to make sure that our whenua, that our water, that our oceans are clean for the future generations.\u201D, this is an enabling piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EWe know that modern corporate governance theory has moved beyond profit maximisation, when I studied it at university, those of us who are supporting not just companies but we\u2019re on boards of directors all over the place where we are considering the greater good. As company directors, they have to make sure that they determine purpose, that the culture of a company is one that helps them to make a profit. That\u2019s fine, but to able to say, \u201CLook, it says in the law it\u2019s OK to do that.\u201D I think is a really great way to support a cultural shift that we need to happen. If we\u2019re going to rely on capitalism to save the planet, best we help give them the tools to make that shift.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThis is a simple little bill. It is a small but mighty little bill. It is really important that we aren\u2019t just seen to be doing better but that we are enabled to do better. We have to ensure that our corporate partners are able to join us in making a great future for this country, and because of that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc795f277d054098ac1a7018458c615a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc795f277d054098ac1a7018458c615a\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E A small and mighty bill\u2014well, what a way to start the morning, under urgency, than going through the Companies (Directors\u2019 Duties) Amendment Bill, which is a complete waste of time. Ten days of Parliament left and the member of Parliament gave to me the most unnecessary bill that I ever did see, and that is what we\u2019ve got on the table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe member referred to Gordon Gekko. Now, has anyone ever heard of Gordon Gekko? That is as good as it gets. Well, I tell you what, Gordon Gekko was a fictional villain. And I tell you what, there are a few fictional villains that are standing up here today, talking a big talk about this bill, and if Gordon Gekko\u2014as I understand from my deep research I undertook from listening to the prior member\u2019s speech\u2014had a saying, \u201CGreed is good.\u201D Well, I tell you what, these Labour members are saying\u2014their fictional villain status is around \u201Cwaste is great.\u201D That, I think, personifies what is a bill coming up under the auspicious idea of Dr Duncan Webb; an epiphany that he had at one point in time. I do feel sorry for the good member, Camilla Belich, in regards to taking on this bill because what a hospital pass; what a hospital pass to take this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENo one believes that this is going to add any value. For the prior member to say this bill is going to help young people, it\u2019s going to help the environment\u2014where in the bill? The only thing that this bill\u2014this bill is a solution looking for a problem. It is well meaning but it is misguided and that is the great shame around the opportunity cost. Where this Government, this morning, could be passing legislation that could truly deal with some of the most significant issues our country faces today, they have decided to use this Parliament\u2019s time to pass this bill, which is unnecessary, misguided, and not supported by many, many stakeholders across this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis bill will result in unintended consequences and implications on directors and probably end up\u2014the only ones who will benefit are lawyers with more legal fees and more court action around the indecisive aspect that this bill will bring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to waste any more time in regards to this bill. It is a bill that is destined to the waste bin, as Andrew Bayly has noted. We strongly oppose this bill and it is the last thing that I think is necessary at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022346e517cf6d6466dbbef986651afc159\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022346e517cf6d6466dbbef986651afc159\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand and speak to this bill in the name of my colleague Camilla Belich, and I thank her for her work in shepherding this through its final stages. This debate has been interesting; I\u2019ve enjoyed the contributions of the members opposite, as well as my colleagues on this side. I\u2019m going to be a lot more boring and give us all a bit of a lecture on how companies work and why they\u2019re important, because that\u2019s something that we haven\u2019t actually talked about this morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221c3b6f7b74a44aa838f73784c38c6b9\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s a good start!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022935154c9436c48c1a4edb4b881c9a869\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: So, Mr Bayly, you will be aware that there is no magic to the duties of directors. They\u2019re all written out in the Companies Act, and companies are special because they\u2019re simple to set up, they\u2019re easy to understand, and there is a long history of using what is essentially the Companies Act over many common law jurisdictions, and a standard form constitution of companies. That\u2019s why they\u2019re useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThey\u2019re also useful because they have limited liability attached for the directors, and that\u2019s what makes them special in character. The legal nature of them is that we design a special set of rules that the public can accept, that directors might have the benefit of, so that they can make business decisions which effect their company in a way which grants them social licence, so that they are not personally responsible for the debts that their company incurs if something goes wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s really important for Parliament and for parliamentarians, who are elected democratically, to every now and then look at those companies directors duties and the rules which create them, and say, \u201CIs there social licence here for these directors to operate in this way? Is it fair for the directors to sit around the table and have this special power that we don\u2019t afford anyone else in any other situation of commercial dealings, or of contract making, or of agreement making of any kind?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI would say, yes, it\u2019s appropriate for Parliament to say that these directors may\u2014\u201Cmay\u201D, not \u201Cmust\u201D\u2014be able to consider things like environmental concerns, things like social concerns. That has the effect of having around the boardroom table an opportunity for directors who want to advance those things within their companies. They might be companies that are set up for a specific social purpose, a specific environmental purpose that we\u2019re seeing a rise of around the world, which are called B companies. They are not charities. They do not operate in a way which is within the very strict definition of what a charity is based on a definition from the 1200s about what is charitable work and what is poverty. These are companies which want to have a wider social focus, and it\u2019s right for Parliament to be able to enable now what social expectations are out there in the big wide world in our Companies Act. That\u2019s why this is useful. It\u2019s a small change, but it goes a step towards doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think one more point I\u2019d like to bring to this debate is that it\u2019s useful for companies to need to actively tell their shareholders what to expect from them. So when we find a document like a constitution, or like a shareholders agreement, which is usually not made public, that\u2019s the place for the company\u2019s directors to be very clear with their shareholders what they will deliver, what things they will take into account. This companies law is different from that. It\u2019s about creating a baseline for what those directors may do, and what they may be held accountable for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo when we have a baseline which is permissive, as my colleague Angela Roberts said\u2014which is empowering, you can then have these further agreements where you\u2019re very specific about those things that you take into account. That\u2019s why the committee heard that this will not have a widereaching legal effect, because usually those agreements between shareholders, or that constitution which is mandated and required, will deal with those things that the directors will take into account. So they will not be bound to take into account things that they don\u2019t expect to, and we don\u2019t expect them to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a good bill. I\u2019m proud of my colleague, Camilla Belich. She was very nice in her opening speech, and we\u2019ve all been a bit mean to her. So well done, chick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00220bd168207a30483f8dd32dcfcab126e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bd168207a30483f8dd32dcfcab126e4\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Ah, we heard the magic words, today, of Baycorp\u2014Baycorp. Let me tell you what Baycorp did to our great hero of the United Kingdom Nigel Farage. The last CEO on the board signed off on, \u201CSome people won\u2019t fit our environmental, social, and corporate governance (ESG) principles.\u201D\u2014and this is the UK NatWest via Coutts bank\u2014and they closed down Nigel\u2019s private business account and his personal accounts and then went through all their customer base saying, \u201CDo you have political views? Are you green enough? Listen to Baycorp.\u201D Anyway, three days later, the new CEO of NatWest and Coutts bank apologised for the application of these bad ESG principles to one of the greatest democratic heroes in the United Kingdom. This is what happens when woke stakeholder capitalism is allowed to penetrate the use of companies and business accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EIf you look at Rabobank and its partnership with Silver Fern Farms, well, sustainability loans, ESG, the road to Paris\u2014there\u2019s not actually anything in here about banking any more; it\u2019s just about, \u201CHave we got our green agenda sorted out so we can send this to Government and maybe extract more money for boilers or for other activities like electric arc furnaces, which we\u2019ll give to Australian shareholders?\u201D And you can see the Government\u2019s getting suckered in that area by companies coming in who have this money in their CAPEX and say, \u201COh, if you want us to move faster on the ESG principles, we need $750 million; we need $150 million.\u201D, and the Government just rocks up and gives it to them. And that is taxpayer money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EHow dare you people insult the directors and businesses of this country. They pay your wages, they pay taxes, they take risks every day to go and make a profit, which is not a bad word, to go and help run this country. And while they\u2019re out there worrying about their bills every night and paying GST and meeting and paying bills on a Thursday, you\u2019re all sitting having chardonnay across the road. So chardonnay socialism, stakeholder socialism, this is going to stop. I\u2019m telling you right now; we\u2019re going to stop it, and we\u2019re going to make sure that every law firm in the country understands what you\u2019ve done today, because this bill has been rejected by every law firm and by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. It\u2019s a rubbish bill, and Duncan Webb should be ashamed of himself, and I don\u2019t know why Camilla Belich took this on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m a bit concerned about the ex-Minister of Revenue the Hon David Parker today. He\u2019s got his mask on. Maybe he\u2019s worried about being infected with these ESG principles, because it is a virus that\u2019s taken hold around the world, and it shouldn\u2019t be allowed. Directors are not stupid. They\u2019re already doing this in their boardrooms. They\u2019re already allowing their customers to experience green benefits. And if a customer doesn\u2019t like it, they can just go and not buy the product. If you want to buy a share in a company\u2014and being a capitalist, you can go and buy a share in a company and you accept the responsibilities. Read the prospectus. If somebody\u2019s promoting environmental policy and you\u2019re happy with it, good stuff. Let the free market take its place in these principles and not shoehorn them into some sort of stupid bill that actually doesn\u2019t make any sense, isn\u2019t mandatory, and will lead to big corporations in this country dictating how business runs their day-to-day life. And it\u2019s not fair and it\u2019s not proper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThis bill was supposed to give more weight to environmental, social, and governance factors around directors\u2019 duties, and it failed to achieve select committee endorsement at its first run. Now, what does that say about this bill? What does it say about this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220990e15abaca4149a830eb3e6f70189b\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a shocker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222caa6e34a6f947138d93c2cea57e36a2\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a shocker, and it\u2019s unnecessary, and it\u2019s a shame on the Labour Party for bringing this in. It\u2019s just purely ideological, and we need to recognise that fact in the House today. You can\u2019t run a country based on your political ideology and your whims of social environmental standards, which are already set out there. The road to Paris is a long road, but it\u2019s actually distorting and making New Zealand uncompetitive. It\u2019s not going to work, and we need to line up with our trading nations and be competitive on a like-for-like basis, and none of these other countries are adopting these principles. In fact, they\u2019re going backwards, so why should we take on this leadership position where we will actually now not reap the benefits of this type of legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EWhether it\u2019s Rabobank or whether it\u2019s the New Zealand Bankers\u2019 Association telling me, \u201COh, there\u2019s no ESG loans, but we have sustainability loans.\u201D Well, it\u2019s the same bloody thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272257585ef3442ca8434d9cbdf1088ac\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e21336447e04c96bce101d8fee59ae8\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, same thing. This actually says if you want to be a farmer, you get differential rates, so you take on our Paris Accord principles. Well, what that means is that a mid-range farmer is disadvantaged because they have to pay higher interest rates. If you\u2019re a corporation, you get cheaper money. Now, that\u2019s a distortion in the market, and that\u2019s behaviourally driven by something which is intangible and doesn\u2019t make sense for the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m not an anti-environmentalist. I actually am a pretty sensible person when it comes to those principles. But I don\u2019t want people being cancelled who don\u2019t have the same political views in business and getting their accounts closed like Nigel Farage. I don\u2019t want corporations and banks dictating to me when I run my business, \u201CWhat is the interest rate?\u201D That\u2019s the free market that sets that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ETo finally conclude, I remember the first time I started my first company. It was a joyous moment. I had my accountant explain to me what my directors\u2019 duties were. I suppose nobody over there has ever started a company. Maybe they have; I don\u2019t know. But you\u2019re actually trained in what you have to do and be responsible for, and that includes environmental factors as well. When you meet payroll on a Thursday, you pay your GST, you pay your taxes, you deserve some respect from this Government, you deserve to get legislation which makes sense, and this should never have come to Parliament and it should never be passed into law. We at the ACT Party believe that woke capitalism\u2014or whatever you want to call it on your side of the fence\u2014or business that is driven by ideological agendas are not going to work longer term, and you need to take that under consideration when you\u2019re promoting this to directors and when you\u2019re promoting this to shareholders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t care about the big corporation and its agenda. What I do care about is the sustainability of New Zealand and making sure as a nation we stay productive, we stay in the world\u2019s intelligent economies and we have a network of laws that actually make sense\u2014it facilitates business and people coming here to invest in this country. This is another example of legislation which continues to position us as the Shaky Isles in terms of investing. What are you going to get when you get to New Zealand? Are they going to close you down, in oil and gas? Are they going to let you operate a steel furnace? Are you going to have to get your boilers replaced 20 years in advance and come to the Government to get the money? We\u2019re just a soft touch now for getting these things through, and it has to stop, we have to reduce debt, we have to reduce the size of the Government, and we have to be efficient with taxpayers\u2019 money. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddab36abc2db4bc186ebc8ff33289ae4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddab36abc2db4bc186ebc8ff33289ae4\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker. I rise in support of the Companies (Directors\u2019 Duties) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Damien Smith, has been talking a lot about capitalism and been claiming that probably they are the ones, the only people who understand capitalism. Well, there are good aspects of capitalism, but blindly being dependent on capitalism got us in the mess that we are in today\u2014it created classes, created inequalities, made very few rich people richer and hard-working people poorer. Just to put it out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill is all about striking the balance between maintaining the ease of doing business and protecting New Zealanders from illegal activities, something that the speakers on the other side of this House are missing. We know it\u2019s quick and simple to establish a company or limited partnership in New Zealand, which is great for business, for doing business, but also opens doors for criminals to take advantage. For example, the Pandora and the Panama Papers highlighted some key vulnerabilities which need to be addressed, and New Zealanders deserve to know who they are doing business with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EWhile the bill that\u2019s going to crack down on global and domestic criminals who use business to hide money laundering, tax evasion, and the financing of terrorism will be introduced later in the year, these changes we are making sit in line with the Government\u2019s national security priorities to help identify threats, risks, and challenges to New Zealand security and wellbeing. It will also help bring us in line with other jurisdictions. It will include changes to rules around the financial beneficial owners to make it easier to see who owns and controls a company. When searching for the company on the register, it can be difficult to see the complete picture of the company\u2019s ownership structure. The new measures would make it a requirement to provide secure, accurate information about who the beneficial owner is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EAs the previous speaker indicated, there are a lot of entities who spoke against this bill, opposed this bill, but also a lot of others who support it as well. The Council of Trade Unions, for example, said that \u201CThe nature of work is changing, which means that the way businesses operate are also going to have to change. This Bill helps to ensure that New Zealand heads in the right direction on these counts.\u201D It\u2019s a good bill. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226315b300ee9f4588aeee0119cfa66af2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226315b300ee9f4588aeee0119cfa66af2\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m going to play the smallest violin ever to the poor company directors who the ACT Party thinks are being victimised by a bill that simply clarifies that they may consider\u2014may, not even must; but that they may consider\u2014things other than maximising profit. I mean, this is like not even a socialist bill, honestly; it simply clarifies what company directors may do. So I really, really enjoyed listening to the theatrics of National and the ACT Party, who were talking about how this bill would victimise those hard-working company directors. And to put it on the record, despite what the ACT Party member may have said, actually it is the workers who create the profits for those company directors. The company directors depend on those workers, and actually, yes, this bill will enable the few company directors who do want to actually consider things other than maximising profits to do so without having to worry about whether the law is clear enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESubmitters and some of those who supported this bill did say that we should have gone further and that we should have made it mandatory for company directors to consider other things other than maximising profit. I do want to commend the different members who have shepherded this bill, and particularly Camilla Belich who brought forward a Supplementary Order Paper to add further clarification about what it is that company directors may consider. But the Green Party once again reiterates our call that for this bill to actually have teeth, the language should have been \u201Cmust\u201D, and unless we actually start twisting capitalism\u2019s arm, we\u2019re never going to actually unshackle ourselves from what has been a broken system that has done nothing but increase wealth inequality and the concentration of power in the hands of a few. The Green Party supports this bill, but calls on the Government to have more ambition and for their backbenchers to be more ambitious in the bills that they put forward. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u002282c261e5bebd47a6ac23ee523b551674\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282c261e5bebd47a6ac23ee523b551674\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a great pleasure to have had this bill in the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee during the select committee stage, and for me, it was really interesting hearing the different stakeholders that came in and submitted on the bill. Some of the people who were, I think, obviously, the natural supporters of the bill, as we would anticipate, would be the environmental groups and some of the different legal entities, but then some of the companies as well who themselves have gone on a journey of really following their environmental, social, and governance (ESG) commitments and making sure that their directors are no longer faced with a potential risk of being caught out under this phrase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EAs I read the bill for the first time\u2014and, obviously, it was in quite a different form than it is now presented to the House today\u2014I was reminded of my colleague Rachel Boyack. I remembered when Rachel first came into caucus one day, holding her soy-printed collateral and showing that off and saying, \u201CYes, it does cost a little bit more, but I think it shows our campaign\u2019s commitment to the environment.\u201D, and I think of that and I think it\u2019s similar. When we look at companies and they choose to spend a little bit more on something that is much more environmentally friendly, will they be caught out under this Act\u2014have they acted in the best interests of their company? Those are the moments that I think about in terms of being out there in the real world, where we actually want company directors to have that faith and to have that reassurance that we want to encourage them to do something that is not only profitable and good for their bottom line but also takes all other matters into consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI do disagree with the ACT member who said that this bill puts New Zealand up as an anomaly. The United Kingdom has its Companies Act 2006, which also kind of gives the same provisions in terms of allowing company directors to consider ESG matters. I think about the social enterprises. That is now\u2014in a woke term\u2014trending at the moment and is making sure that companies are set up, not even for the purpose of profit, but the profit-making is for another, bigger purpose in our society and community. I want to make sure that this bill enables more and more social enterprises, so that our charity sector can really look after themselves and be self-sustainable as well. So that\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002209a24dcf35634e54937b11e6018ae98d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209a24dcf35634e54937b11e6018ae98d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call Nicola Grigg\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022e926de7bb828404cbb0a2f5fabbaf17e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e926de7bb828404cbb0a2f5fabbaf17e\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, like my colleagues and other parties on this side of the House, I\u2019m opposing this bill, obviously. It is a pointless bill. Look, I have to say I feel for Camilla Belich; this really is a hospital pass that has been given to her. But if we look at the purpose of the bill, it allegedly makes clear that a company director, in acting as the mind and will of the company, can take actions that consider wider matters other than the financial bottom line. Can someone explain to me what is wrong with a company making a profit? What is wrong with considering the financial bottom line? That is the question that the Government members have failed to answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThis Government seems to purport that making a profit in New Zealand is suddenly a cardinal sin. And yet, if you ask any person on the streets of New Zealand, most of them hold business in high regard, because it is business that employs people. It is business that allows people to earn money, to feed their kids, to pay their mortgages, to send their kids to school, to live a purposeful life. There is nothing wrong with business. It defies logic that the new section being added to the current legislation is \u201CTo avoid doubt, in considering the best interests of a company or holding company for the purposes of this section, a director may consider matters other than the maximisation of profit\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAgain, what is wrong with considering the maximization of profit? This is a typical daily occurrence within a business operation. Of course they account for profit. Of course they account for the wellbeing and safety of their staff. Of course they account for environmental implications and impact. This is a typical \u201Cwe know best\u201D piece of legislation from Labour. It is a typical command, control, centralise piece of legislation from this Labour Government. It is typical arrogance displayed towards business owners who go out on a limb, who take a risk, who want to employ other New Zealanders to ensure their wellbeing, to ensure their financial gain, to ensure their children are fed and housed and clothed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThis is a piece of legislation that is once again coming down hard unnecessarily on the businesses of New Zealand. It is totally pointless. It is a solution looking for a problem. It is well meaning, but it is totally misguided. It has not identified a problem to solve. In fact, if one were to actually look at the Companies Act 1993, it already states this bill\u2019s intention. The Companies Act 1993 states that a director of a company \u201Cmust act in good faith and in what the director believes [is] the best interest of the company.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo, again, I put to the House: this is a pointless bill. It is yet more regulation on businesses that are already struggling enough after six years under a Labour Government. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00229e69579ac9654892ad2fcb99f317f48c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e69579ac9654892ad2fcb99f317f48c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Jamie Strange for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1dd54855a9d4487a95b1ddcb0c5e86c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1dd54855a9d4487a95b1ddcb0c5e86c\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think we need to bring a little bit of clarity to this debate in the House here. The bill makes clear that a company director, in acting as the mind and will of the company, may take actions that take into account wider matters other than the financial bottom line. This is not command and control. This is not disregarding the bottom line. This is saying, \u201CMay also take into account other matters.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of clarity, I thought I\u2019d have a look at the Oxford Dictionary to see what the word \u201Cmay\u201D means and actually compare the word \u201Cmay\u201D with the word \u201Cmust\u201D, because it sounds like the Opposition are a bit confused; I think the Opposition are believing this is \u201Cmust\u201D. This is \u201Cmay\u201D take into account. So \u201Cmay\u201D means \u201Cexpressing possibility\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo, if the House will indulge me, let me give a little anecdote. Somebody visits someone\u2019s house. They knock on the door: \u201CMay I come in?\u201D \u201CYou may, if you wish.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u201CMay I have a cup of tea?\u201D \u201CYou may, if you desire.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u201CMay I have a scone?\u201D \u201CYou may, if you are hungry.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAnd, finally: \u201CMay I depart?\u201D \u201CYou may, but please return again.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThe word \u201Cmay\u201D is very different to the word \u201Cmust\u201D. The word \u201Cmust\u201D, in the Oxford Dictionary, is defined as \u201Csomething is necessary, often involving a rule or a law\u201D. This piece of legislation does not use the word \u201Cmust\u201D; it uses the word \u201Cmay\u201D. So hopefully that brings some clarity to this debate, because I sensed there was a little bit of confusion there. Hopefully that anecdote was helpful. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bed866ca69634ce89f9dd1c60ec2c452\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bed866ca69634ce89f9dd1c60ec2c452\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, that last contribution was about as useful as the bill itself. We\u2019ve got a piece of legislation here before the House that, quite frankly, sums up the Government\u2019s approach recently: it\u2019s a total waste of time. It\u2019s a real\u2014well, it\u2019s a solution looking for a problem, quite frankly. We have, now, another example of dilly-dallying around when there are really critical issues that should be getting addressed by the Government at the moment, and frankly, the country is suffering because of it. We have already a set of rules in place that enable our directors to act appropriately in regard to carrying out their duties on behalf of the companies they\u2019re involved with. There\u2019s nothing that, at the moment, requires this change to occur, and, quite frankly, we\u2019ve seen many businesses already looking at a range of aspects that are in the best interests of their business, and that is as it should be. It is not necessary to put in this extra caveat that requires them\u2014or gives them, to the previous speaker Jamie Strange\u2019s point\u2014that they may consider other aspects outside of profit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBusinesses operate in this fashion already, and I think this really highlights one of the key aspects from the Government, where they clearly lack a good understanding of what it means to operate around a board table and of how businesses operate, because these sorts of considerations are absolutely critical sitting around the board table. Of course the numbers are considered, but a whole range of factors are considered from a director\u2019s perspective in their role on a board, determining the future or decisions for a particular entity that they may be involved with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve seen\u2014and, actually, one of the previous speakers said this as well\u2014is that companies are already going on this journey. And that\u2019s exactly right; they don\u2019t need this legislation to be able to make the right decisions for their business, for their communities, and for the environments that they are operating in. I think that\u2019s the fundamental flaw from this Government: that they think they need to control the narrative, they need to tell businesses how to operate for businesses to succeed. We have a fundamentally different view. We absolutely disagree with that position. We have confidence in the business sector in New Zealand. We back them to go out every day and perform, and they do that day after day. Despite the increasing burden of regulation, the additional red tape, and the additional costs of compliance being imposed on them day after day by this Government, the business community continues to perform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, profit, as we\u2019ve heard, seems to be a dirty word on that side of the House, and it\u2019s certainly not, because you can\u2019t be green if you\u2019re in the red. That\u2019s the saying that we use in the food and fibre sector a lot because everyone that I\u2019ve come across cares about the environment. They want to do the right thing for their communities, for the environment, and for their employees, and that\u2019s how it should be. But to do that, you have to be a successful company, you have to be generating profits, and you have to be succeeding in your industry. We seem to have a Government intent on putting burdens and controls in place to dictate how that should or should not occur. Ultimately, what that\u2019s doing is it\u2019s undermining the ability of those businesses to perform and to succeed for them and therefore for their communities, their employees, and the environment around them. And that\u2019s the sort of mind-set that simply is not working, and it\u2019s been borne out over the last six years under this Government\u2014this lack of trust that the Government has in the business community in New Zealand, and in the people of New Zealand, it seems, such that they feel the need to impose an onerous level of control across all manner of areas. It is simply unacceptable and, frankly, disrespectful to that community as well. We are a great country, we can continue to be better, we need to up the game, but at the moment we\u2019ve got a Government intent on pulling our business sector down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe fundamentally disagree with that approach. Pieces of legislation like this epitomise the Government\u2019s approach to a lack of trust in the business sector and the need to control and influence everything, and, frankly, we disagree with it. It\u2019s another socialist approach that, quite frankly, doesn\u2019t fit, and the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people\u2019s money to spend. This is the problem that we\u2019re seeing here when our business community is struggling time and time again, getting more and more impositions put on them by a Government that simply doesn\u2019t seem to understand. [Interruption] They\u2019ve woken up over the other side of the House now. We, quite frankly, do not accept that this is an appropriate piece of legislation. We do not support it. We are committed to backing our business sector, backing this country to get back on track and succeed like we know that it can. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00222ae6496c064945b287cb647bd818c3c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ae6496c064945b287cb647bd818c3c1\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a real privilege to get the final word on this small, mighty, and, I believe, really important bill because it is not a brainwave from Dr Duncan Webb, as has been described; it\u2019s actually something that the business sector and social enterprise sector have called for for years. What it does is it bridges the gap between the current business models of profit and not-for-profit, because the world as we understand it now is quite different from when the Companies Act was introduced in 1993. To suggest that there is no problem is to suggest that we have infinite resources and that we have no issues around inequality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESocial enterprise is a word that I would use instead of \u201CB companies\u201D. It is companies that look at social profit as one of their considerations. There\u2019s a whole spectrum from socially motivated companies through to those that simply take that into account. What this legislation does mean is that instead of those companies then being forced to be a not-for-profit, they can continue to operate with the savvy and the fiscal discipline of a profit-making company but taking into account things that exist in the circular economy, taking into account environmental, social, and governance considerations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI think we have a duty as a Government in this environment of climate change and of inequality to provide incentives and nudges and certainly this bill does this but not in a way that requires companies to take these matters into account. It certainly isn\u2019t mandatory, and I would never go so far as to suggest that. I think the Greens are dreaming if they think that is able to be achieved because that really does open a Pandora\u2019s box; the not-for-profit sector is better for that. What it does, as many of my colleagues have said, is it means that company directors are no longer in the straitjacket of having to put profit maximisation first. We can see that regardless of what the Opposition say, that does come into account sometimes in the risk mitigations that companies take where they take shortcuts\u2014we\u2019ve seen that with oil spills, with all sorts of issues where the profit has come at the cost of the environment\u2014but also there\u2019s an assumption from Andrew Bayly that consumers always do the right thing. They may want to but many of our people are struggling with the cost of living and they will go for the cheapest option regardless of what they think is the right thing to do, so I think it\u2019s inaccurate to say that consumers are always motivated and act on those motivations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere are also assumptions from people around the role of the law in this, that the law is somehow devoid of politics\u2014that\u2019s a different jurisprudence than I follow; that\u2019s why I left the law. Everything is political, and to suggest that there are unintended consequences that haven\u2019t been thought through by the law firms, I have to look at who their clients are and who pays their bills. What this law does, as Angela Roberts said, is it\u2019s an enabler. Currently, companies are in a straitjacket and, where there is profit and social profit\u2014these are no mutually exclusive so, yes, companies can take that into account. But where they are mutually exclusive, what this does is it enables company directors to actually have regard for these other very important factors that were not appreciated as being so important back in 1993.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt is a great bill; it is a game-changer. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222ee27ba4bd8540d2bbc3d11cdd5c21a6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Companies (Directors\u2019 Duties) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000094\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c8c4862dabe4110ada5874261344af8\u0022\u003ESale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022222b912b86224b9d9784432251c96c43\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000097\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 26 July.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d336bd100e10484aa150d9ce80a8a9c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d336bd100e10484aa150d9ce80a8a9c1\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101l\u014D e lelei, Madam Speaker. I stand to speak to the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill. I would like to begin by congratulating the member Stuart Smith of Kaik\u014Dura, for getting his bill pulled from the ballot box and for having such a good bill that ACT are really looking forward to supporting it along its journey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI note that I may be speech number three, but we already have one of the chardonnay socialists from across the other side of the House agree with the bill, and, hopefully, we\u2019ll get more on board with this one, the cellar door tasting bill. You know, this is about where multiple bottles of wine are opened for shot tasting, usually at about 30 millilitres per shot, and they hope that they can sell enough to be able to compensate for the free tasting. Being a consumer, I was initially confused with the debate that was had the other day about on-licence and off-licence requirements. As a consumer, you know, I just rock on up to the wineries and go about having the tasting without really thinking about what effect it may have on cost for those wineries. As Stuart Smith had actually pointed out, there\u2019s over 600 small wineries around New Zealand. In fact, I think he even went about to tell us there were 28 within electorates that obviously need supporting, and I thought that was very well done. Stuart Smith actually gave MPs a big list of all of those electorates, and I think that those that operate their businesses would appreciate that he\u2019s actually pointed out, to the members that they represent, who they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI\u2019d never actually thought about the legal requirements of the winery at the cellar door and the licensing requirements and on-licences that were needed for the sale and consumption of alcohol on premises. So that\u2019s for hotels, it\u2019s for pubs, nightclubs, and restaurants\u2014they all have the on-licence. But an off-licence is for selling for the consumption at a different place. So that\u2019s where the bottle shops, the supermarkets, and the grocery stores come in. So, I could see the confusion when we were looking at what\u2019s actually happening at the cellar-door wine tasting experiences. The wineries need an off-licence to sell their wine to consumers in order to take them home and they give away their wine in those 30 millilitre lots for tasting because they don\u2019t have an on-licence in which to sell it. Further to that, it appears that the off-licence is only available under limited circumstances, with certain requirements needing to be met. I got confused just trying to get my head around what those requirements were and when you need the on-licence, when you need the off-licence, and what cancels one or the other out. So good on you, Stuart Smith, for looking to cut the red tape and the regulation, and for looking to bring back common sense for small businesses. Good on you also, Stuart Smith, for looking at ways to cut the financial waste from those small to medium enterprises\u2019 pockets, because ACT can also support that too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the member that the wine growers have a $2.41 billion industry. This is substantial. How do we help it to grow? We support the businesses to grow it. Wine is New Zealand\u2019s sixth-largest export product, after all. So ACT agrees with the member\u2019s bill where he defines samples as needing to be at 40 millilitres. It means there are 18 samples out of a 750 millilitre bottle, and charging for those samples will help the SMEs\u2014or small to medium sized enterprises\u2014to recoup their expenses. Good host responsibility is an essential part of any alcohol bill, and it\u2019s there within this bill. The person serving these tests or tastings still need to be a duty manager and they still need to abide by the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAgain, with over 600 small wineries around New Zealand, many of which have been hit with the adverse weather events, this is a good way of being able to support them to boost their business. But there is one aspect that I\u2019ve already been lobbied about, and it\u2019s whether or not we could bring certain distilleries or craft breweries into this as well for wine tasting. Perhaps that\u2019s an aspect that we could speak about at the Justice Committee table. So we support this bill and we thank Stuart Smith for looking at ways to cut red tape and support our businesses so they too can thrive in New Zealand. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3ecd931d55a407da41dffb12c00abb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3ecd931d55a407da41dffb12c00abb9\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill. Can I begin by congratulating my neighbour from across the hill in the mighty Marlborough winemaking region. So congratulations to Stuart Smith, and it\u2019s been a pleasure to engage with you, Stuart Smith, around this bill. I\u2019ll definitely be supporting this bill to go through to select committee and probably further than that. My view is that any of us who have wineries in our electorates or our region should be taking a good look at the benefits that this bill will bring, and I\u2019m going to talk to those in a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIn the Nelson region, we have around 150 years of winemaking in our region, and I know people will often talk particularly about Marlborough and about Hawke\u2019s Bay, but I\u2019m very proud of the work of a number of our businesses. Now, my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor will probably call me out for claiming some of the wineries that are actually in his electorate, not mine, but I like to claim them. There are a couple close to me\u2014Waimea Estate\u2014that have provided wine into the region for a very long time, and our region is known for the pinot noir that you can find out at Neudorf, made beautifully by the wonderful team there, Tim and Judy and Rosie Finn. But my favourite are our aromatics, and probably the top wine in Nelson\u2014if I was going to choose one, and it\u2019s very risky to do this\u2014would have to be the Seifried gew\u00FCrztraminer; it is a fantastic drop. So if you haven\u2019t tried that one, I do encourage you to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut just to the bill\u2014to the bill. Where I\u2019m going with this is that in Marlborough and in Nelson, we have a number of cellar doors that operate and trails where people can cycle around and visit the vineyards, visit the hops in my region as well and have samples. So it\u2019s very well marketed in Marlborough, and you often see, when you\u2019re driving around Blenheim, people biking from vineyard to vineyard, and it\u2019s an important part of the tourism experience in the top of the South Island to do that, and in other parts of the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve had representation made to me about supporting this bill from winemakers who\u2019ve come to see me at the Saturday market. The specific issue they\u2019ve raised with me is that it\u2019s very difficult for them when people come and they\u2019ve biked from one vineyard to the next and, essentially, are getting wine for free. They feel quite uncomfortable doing that, both from a business point of view but also from a host responsibility and a harm reduction point of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve raised with me the harm reduction issues of, essentially, just providing sample after sample after sample and that, actually, if people were required to pay for that sample, which is what used to happen\u2014so back in the day, it used to be quite straightforward to go to a vineyard that had an off-licence and have a sample and pay for it, and that should be the expectation. If you\u2019re having something from a business that is alcohol, you should be paying for it. I personally feel very uncomfortable that people are able just to go in and have a small wine sort of for free. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo that is the main reason why I\u2019m supporting this bill, why I encourage other members to support this bill. It makes sense to me, from both a business perspective, but, more importantly, from a harm reduction perspective. I\u2019m sure there will be some things that need to be ironed out in select committee. That\u2019s what the process of select committee is for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Nicole McKee, I think made a very good outline of all the ins and outs of how on- and off-licences work, and I\u2019m not going to repeat all of that, but it is confusing for people, and I think that what we can do with these bills is actually work through to try to get less confusion, so that it\u2019s more clear what people need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut we want people to be coming back to New Zealand as tourists and visiting regions like Marlborough, like the good region of Nelson Tasman, the sunniest region in New Zealand\u2014always a controversial thing to say in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b0554ad3cee4cfabeedd68f8b946e96\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Very.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea81b751cad54d53b9f0d44d61a4624b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve been stealing our sundial, I think, Mr Bennett, or perhaps someone from Marlborough has been. But it\u2019s an excellent bill, I think. I appreciate the representations made to me by vineyards. I\u2019m happy to hear from them further about things that could help improve the bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00220c0d9c389b0b4b4bb2f11688f0e939ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c0d9c389b0b4b4bb2f11688f0e939ac\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. As is custom, I just wanted to shout out to the member in charge of this bill for the luck of the ballot, the luck of the draw, as it were, and having the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill drawn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EJust to cut through the suspense, the Greens will be supporting this bill, and to outline why that is\u2014it\u2019s been incredibly frustrating over the past few years, in this place, as we\u2019ve debated a number of pieces of law on liquor and alcohol regulation. Frequently we are operating in false absolutes when we are debating that. The Greens are consistent. I\u2019d argue that we are the only party that is consistent on drug regulation in this country. Because, just to actually unpack some of the sentiments that were outlined by my ACT Party colleague Nicole McKee around kind of red tape and the operation of those who operate within markets, when you\u2019re talking about substances, whether those substances are alcohol, cannabis, tobacco, or otherwise, you have a spectrum of regulatory approaches. At one extreme you have criminal prohibition and at the other extreme you have a complete legal, unregulated free market. At both ends of those extremes you end up with the maximisation of harm because, whether it is criminal entities or commercial entities, in those environments and markets\u2014whether they are legal or the black market\u2014you are incentivised to exploit vulnerable communities to shift as much of your product as is possible to make a quick buck. So we pull away from those extremes through a process of sensible regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe things that this bill does is, firstly, allowing wineries to charge for samples without getting a separate on-licence\u2014so they already have that licence. And the second is fixing an anomaly, and that\u2019s a really important point to make, that this is an anomaly that exists within the law which means that wineries with restaurants currently have to create a new business for their cellar doors in order to obtain an off-licence by adding a new category for on-licences available to wineries holding an on-licence. I\u2019ve heard from other members that there has been lobbying with regards to the potential expansion of this to other alcohol trading businesses and I\u2019d just actually like to make the point, as expressed by my Labour colleague Rachel Boyack, around how, actually, when you are looking at interventions with regard to how to reduce harm for certain substances one of the main mechanisms that we have available to us is pricing. So that\u2019s perhaps one of the fascinating ironies in this proposed bill, is that we actually have a potential for reduction of harm through the ability to charge for these samples. I would just love to see some more logical consistency from the National Party on that point in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut prima facie this is quite a straightforward, quite a simple, and quite a sensible piece of law. I\u2019m not going to pretend it\u2019s going to change the world with regard to harm reduction and it\u2019s definitely a bit of a long bow to propose that that is the case. But none the less, I\u2019m looking forward to those submissions at select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAs I do have the floor, I would like to make the point again that I would implore all members to have some logical consistency when it comes to approach to substances on these issues of harm reduction, because we have the ability to disempower that black market where, in the words of the ACT Party member, actually no red tape exists. Drug dealers do not check ID, they will up-sell young people to ever more harmful substances, and in that black market we have unknown people consuming unknown substances to unknown consequences and no ability to intervene in that potentially problematic use. So the best way to ensure that we reduce that harm is through sensible regulation. And to that effect I\u2019d say that we\u2019re well overdue for some meaningful investigation of whether our sale and supply of alcohol laws are actually living up to what they say on the tin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut the Greens support this. I\u2019m looking forward to watching it progress through the House and select committee process, and encourage all to submit at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00223896a2ea41c947258fad227464a5269a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223896a2ea41c947258fad227464a5269a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take what will be a brief call on this bill, and in doing so can I acknowledge the member who has had the luck of the draw, Stuart Smith, in having this bill drawn in and for bringing it to the House. On this side of the House, we are treating this as a matter of conscience. However, I can inform the House that I intend to support the member\u2019s bill through first reading, and probably likely beyond that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIn Palmerston North, we do not have any wineries within the electorate; as Mr McKelvie and Mr Tuiono will know, the closest one is actually in the Pohangina Valley and has been for quite some time. It doesn\u2019t mean, however, that Palmerston North is boring for its lack of wineries. In fact, I think at many of the cafes in Palmerston North you would find Mr Smith\u2019s electric wines on the menu, and I\u2019m sure if you looked hard enough you\u2019d probably even find a Spanish wine there as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe point of this particular bill is that it does allow for a little bit more consistency and some ease when it comes to those establishments and locations that are effectively identified or defined as a cellar door operation, and that the bill also identifies a definitional aspect around that as well. But it also does permit the payment of some money in exchange for sample consumption. So this is just one element that I think makes a lot of sense, it\u2019ll obviously go to select committee if it clears the hurdle today. But many of these establishments do have a restaurant or cafe on site, and it just makes logical sense to tidy up this anomaly. I am happy to support this past first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u00225e1d1afb799c4308b8f11783a5285516\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e1d1afb799c4308b8f11783a5285516\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d better fill the gap, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill in the name of my colleague Stuart Smith. As the last speaker\u2014the previous speaker Tangi Utikere\u2014said, we in the Manawat\u016B struggle a little bit for our wine, and if I ever need advice I go straight to Stuart Smith and he sorts it out for me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI wouldn\u2019t, however, refer to wine as a substance. I think it\u2019s much more of a tonic or a food or whatever, but certainly not a substance. I think that to refer to wine as a substance is almost an insult to the winery. As the previous speaker said, in the Rangit\u012Bkei, we have actually\u2014[Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e8ca79d67c64b96a3347fc603ee981e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh sorry, no\u2014wrong button. Carry on\u2014carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee46bcaac6164b0fb05e862403aa1a20\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: Can I keep going, Madam Speaker\u2014can you give me another minute? Give me another minute! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EIn the Rangit\u012Bkei, in my time in Parliament, we\u2019ve had three very small wineries operating, and I think there\u2019s probably about one and a bit left now. There\u2019s a very good reason for that: we grow great meat in the Rangit\u012Bkei. I suppose, when you think about the wine trails of Marlborough and Hawke\u2019s Bay, in particular\u2014and probably Nelson and Waipara and Canterbury\u2014we could well have a meat trail in the Rangit\u012Bkei. I mean, I think that\u2019s something that I might think about when I leave this place in a few weeks\u2019 time\u2014I could start up a new kind of business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EBut I think that the real point of this is that wine is certainly a very successful industry in New Zealand, but it has a different cause, I guess, in that it\u2019s a very good tourist attraction. I liken it in some ways to the thoroughbred industry, because if you think about the thoroughbred industry around the world, horses are an attraction for people to travel round the world. Wine has the same impact, and to allow people to travel through those wine trails\u2014I\u2019m no expert on this, as you can tell, but I\u2019m an expert on taking Stuart Smith\u2019s advice. To allow people to travel through those regions and sample wine at various establishments is very sensible, but the issue with this bill\u2014and it corrects an anomaly, as Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick so eloquently put it. It corrects an anomaly in the law which enables those cellar doors to, effectively, charge people for those samples that they\u2019re taking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ENow, some of us had the opportunity to travel to South America a little while ago, and, of course, Chile and Argentina, particularly, are very large wine producers. Chile is a huge wine producer, and we had the opportunity to go and visit one of these cellar doors in Chile. They had a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f25a02c69594c6682518a16ff7b481e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Terrible! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c33cc7851b354b4abddcdd5bd6c2dd8f\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: There was very good meat there, actually, so that\u2019s another point in my favour\u2014very good meat there. But the interesting thing about it was that they were charging for samples. They had a cover charge at the start, and then they charged you for any extra samples you took, so the opportunity was there in that country for it to work very well. So I\u2019m pleased to see support right round the House for this bill. It\u2019s very sensible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe other point I wanted to make is that this is yet another alcohol bill coming through the House to amend a piece of the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act, which points clearly to the fact that this whole area needs to be reviewed. I think this is the third bill we\u2019ve had in the House in the last few weeks with respect of the sale and supply of alcohol, and for us to continue to have to put these bills through the House without having an opportunity to review in its entirety the Act in New Zealand, then I think it just points strongly to the fact that we need to review that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAnother interesting point was made earlier that when you go round, even some of our wineries are producing gin sampling and all sorts of things like that. In fact, in the Wairarapa, there is a winery that also makes very good gin, and I think that the opportunity for this kind of tourism industry in New Zealand is significant. As I think one of the earlier speakers referred to, it also refers to our small breweries, our small gin operators, and we\u2019ve even got some pretty good whisky made in New Zealand nowadays, which is a huge improvement on what used to come out of your area, Madam Assistant Speaker Dean, actually, many years ago. It was pretty average\u2014you had to pour it into a Johnnie Walker bottle to be able to drink it. Anyway, I won\u2019t refer to its name, but that\u2019s as true as I stand here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve got no problems with supporting this bill. I think it\u2019s a very good little piece of legislation. It\u2019s exactly the reason we have members\u2019 bills coming through this House, and I think that to get a bill drawn that actually changes something that will make a significant difference to a very important industry in New Zealand is pretty important. I congratulate Stuart Smith on that, and I also welcome the support right around the House for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5135a5041a642e58eaedec817eb94d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5135a5041a642e58eaedec817eb94d2\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Speaker. It appears no other Labour speakers want to take a call, so I will round things up and thank all those members for their support. I also acknowledge those members within the Labour caucus that are treating this as a conscience matter. It quite rightly should be a conscience matter if people feel that way. We don\u2019t feel that way within the National Party, on this particular bill anyway, but I do acknowledge their right to have their view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s been highlighted quite well\u2014Rachel Boyack, my neighbour from across the hill, very proudly spoke about the wineries that are within her electorate. I think that is what the wine industry has on its side, that, actually, those small businesses\u2014and sometimes large\u2014bring an extra thing or an extra colour to their tourism offering, and a great part of the community. I think this bill goes a long way to helping those businesses operate within the law but in a much more simple way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI take Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s point about alcohol and the laws around that, but I also thank her for her support. As she quite rightly knows, she\u2019s got a number of cellar doors in her electorate, on Waiheke Island, and as most of the members will know\u2014who read their email, anyway\u2014the number of electorates that have wineries within them is quite surprising. I was surprised at the extent of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ll take no more time from the House, but I do thank everyone for their support, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6661be2ec234d5eb36abfc4228dd5a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6661be2ec234d5eb36abfc4228dd5a6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I have determined that the subject of this vote will be treated as a conscience issue. In this case, I know that there are members who want a personal vote, and I am prepared to accept one. So this is the process that we\u2019re going to follow: I\u2019m going to put the question, you will vote, I will then announce the result, and at that stage any member can ask for a personal vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224661f20bf57446659f20da1026308e08\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA personal vote was called for on the question, That the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 105\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\n        \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\n          \u003Ctable\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EAllan (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHenderson (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n 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     \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EEdmonds (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMen\u00E9ndez March (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESeymour \u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWoodhouse\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGenter (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMitchell (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EShaw (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWoods (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGhahraman (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMooney\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESimmonds\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGoldsmith (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMuller (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESimpson (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGrigg (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ENash (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESio (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n          \u003C/table\u003E\n        \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\n        \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\n          \u003Ctable\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBennett G\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHenare (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETinetti (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDavis (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKanongata\u2019a (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWebb\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHalbert\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ENgobi (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWilliams A\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n          \u003C/table\u003E\n        \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Fair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000139\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000140\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221f5d218b31914ef6bdbf40c759475924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f5d218b31914ef6bdbf40c759475924\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b26a59bf5002457c85d84f29a267201e\u0022\u003EFair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022274f28344a6e4979914ce13bebb26c35\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00227665df83111e4f12b22596d879eee342\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227665df83111e4f12b22596d879eee342\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Fair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAt the outset, I\u2019d like to acknowledge my parliamentary adviser over the last eight years, Matthew Stephens, who worked hard with me on the development and progression of this member\u2019s bill, and the countless New Zealand consumers who are suffering under the weight of expired gift cards, in dire need of relief and trade reform in this part of the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EToday, I rise to present the Fair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill, which aims to bring about fairness and consumer protection in the gift card industry. It seeks to extend the minimum expiry date of gift cards for three years, ensuring that all New Zealanders have a fair opportunity to utilise the full value of their gift cards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe idea for this bill was first sparked with my colleague the Hon Jacqui Dean in 201718, when she served as the Opposition spokesperson for small business and I was chairperson of the then Commerce Committee, which is now the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. The bill was subsequently entrusted to me in 2020 after a brief spell under the custodianship of my former parliamentary colleague Jo Hayes. After the random authority of the biscuit tin ballot, it was drawn from the ballot in November last year, to be debated in this House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EGift cards have become a popular choice for many Kiwis, offering convenience and flexibility for both gift-givers and recipients. However, the current situation allows for unreasonably short expiry dates on these cards, causing approximately one in five recipients in our country to lose the full value of their gift before they can redeem it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAccording to research, an estimated $10 million a year is lost on expired gift cards, which is simply unjust, in my view. From books to baches, to barbecues and restaurants, Kiwis are missing out on the opportunity their loved ones have provided them due to the paucity of time they have to utilise them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESome research indicates there is currently about $267 million of gift cards throughout New Zealand that are unused. The frustrations and sometimes tears and anger at the inability to use a gift card when you\u2019ve thought and considered for weeks how to utilise it for special purchases or being completely unable to utilise it due to the time scope involved must end. By extending the minimum expiry date to three years, we ensure that individuals have ample time to utilise their gift cards, reducing the frustrations and disappointment caused by premature expiration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EFurthermore, this bill contributes to the economic wellbeing of New Zealanders by preventing the loss of funds due to expired gift cards, and more money stays in the pockets of consumers, stimulating the economic activity and supporting local businesses. It removes uncertainty across the economy by ensuring businesses, small and large alike, know how long they have to maintain gift cards as a liability in their accounts. It also ensures we get better consumer outcome for all, more holidays, more special moments, and more exciting products purchased that will make New Zealand families happier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis House today is not alone in considering the regulation of this small and vital part of our consumer economy. Countries like Canada have banned expiry dates outright, while the United States enforces a minimum five-year expiry date requirement. By comparison, many New Zealand retailers still impose a shorter six-month or 12-month expiry date. I have proposed the three-year minimum period as the middle ground at this first reading stage, and I hope, should this House pass the bill to the select committee, that we hear industry and consumers alike as to the best time scale for New Zealand standard gift card expiration time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAs with much proposed legislation, there have been some small concerns raised with me that this proposal could infringe on small-business practices. Some argue that extending the minimum expiry date may burden businesses or lead to unintended consequences. One article in particular raises concern about how this bill might affect retailers and implies potential drawbacks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ELet me address these concerns directly. First and foremost, this bill is not intended to place an undue burden on businesses. Instead, it seeks to strike a balance between consumer protection and fair business practices by providing a three-year minimum expiry date. Retailers still have ample opportunity to encourage timely redemption while ensuring fairness to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EMoreover, this bill aligns New Zealand\u2019s regulations with international standards promoting a competitive and fair marketplace. It is essential that we take into consideration the experiences of other countries that have successfully implemented similar policies. So many of our New Zealand businesses that offer gift cards are part of a wider international network, so it makes greater sense in a globalised economy that we can have better gift card expiration date alignment with our international friends and trading partners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EFinally, I know that some consumers also want to debate how gift cards should be treated when a business ceases trading, and I look forward to advice and submissions on this topic at the select committee. Just last week, I had an email from a consumer who had seen a TV story about gift cards and my member\u2019s bill. I contacted her, and it\u2019s a tragic story of how her son was leaving work because of an illness, and the company had given him a $500 gift voucher for the Nike shop at Britomart. Her son has since died of a brain tumour, and what the family wanted to do was to utilise that gift card for purchases for their grandchildren. But the shop at Britomart had since closed, and when they went to another Nike store, the gift card was not honoured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo I look forward to the submissions on this very matter, because I did not include that in the actual bill, but I\u2019m sure the select committee could make recommendations, and perhaps a Supplementary Order Paper could be introduced on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThere are some significant additional questions to add at select committee, in particular whether Prezzy cards and other types of temporary credit and debit cards should fall within the remit of the proposals, and how our policy can align with trans-Tasman operational businesses and, indeed, other online-only and international partners. These are important considerations I hope to discuss comprehensively at select committee stage. I know there are many businesses, consumers, and commercial organisations all eager to constructively engage in these conversations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EHonourable members, we are still in a cost of living crisis. New Zealand is in a recession, and weekly shops, the replacement of utilities, and the need for services are hurting New Zealand households. Gift cards with a minimum three-year expiry date can go a long way to helping those households who save a card, thinking that they can purchase something for a rainy day, but find out that the gift card expired a long time ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the Fair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill is a vital step towards consumer protection and economic prosperity in New Zealand. By extending the minimum expiry date of gift cards to three years, we ensure that Kiwis have a fair chance to utilise the value of their gifts. I call upon all members of this House to support this bill to ensure that New Zealand remains at the forefront of consumer protection and fairness in the market place. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd972f6f015d402b94b906c1ada1c844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd972f6f015d402b94b906c1ada1c844\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002269c4aad9e8d041d7a2cf0fb6493d41fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269c4aad9e8d041d7a2cf0fb6493d41fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, there is clearly an issue here that needs to be addressed. There have been surveys which show that of the 20\u00A0percent of gift card users who\u2019ve been stuck with an expired card, more than half lost more than $20, and 10 percent lost more than $60. We know that a percentage of shoppers never spend, or are able to redeem all of the money on a gift card that they\u2019ve received. There are real advantages to retailers in selling gift cards. They have money banked already, essentially they have a sale in the pocket, and they also have the prospect of further sales as those who are gift card users frequently spend beyond the amount of the gift card when they come into a shop to redeem that card.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo we know that these cards are of big benefit to retailers. We know that the practice in New Zealand is out of line with other partners that we\u2014other countries we look to overseas or align ourselves with. Melissa Lee has talked about, in her contribution, the merit of aligning expiry dates with overseas partners. I think that is an issue the select committee will need to pick up if this makes it through to the select committee. Australia has a three-year limit and we see that many Australian firms don\u2019t apply that limit in New Zealand. So New Zealand consumers are being treated more poorly than Australian consumers by the same companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut we also see that in other jurisdictions like the United States and Ireland, that it\u2019s five years typically for an expiry date on a gift card. In many, if not most, Canadian provinces there is no limit, no expiry date on gift cards. So if alignment is what we\u2019re looking for, I think that is something that would need to be looked at more closely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u2019s also raised the issue of shops that have closed, transferability of gift cards; there are a range of issues around gift cards that need a more serious look. I would add to that the classification of what is a gift card. We know, for example, that many retailers offer benefits with the sale, ones that spring to mind readily are the free coffees that supermarkets offer, which comes in the form of a little token that you can redeem usually within a short period of time. Discounts on petrol are another frequent thing that appears with a receipt when you\u2019re making a purchase at some stores, and typically they don\u2019t expire very far into the future at all. So \u201Cwhat are gift cards?\u201D is one of the questions that will need to be thought carefully about if this is going to be a blanket extension of that limit. So I fear that in its current form there are some things to be concerned about in the bill, albeit that it is a bill that is addressing a very real issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo on this side of the House, we\u2019re very much mindful of the significant amount of money that remains unspent on gift cards, nearly quarter of a\u2014or in fact more than quarter of a billion dollars according to one survey. The average Kiwi has three gift cards with credit remaining, with a combined total of $72 left over, we\u2019re told. There\u2019s actually a gender gap here, men tend to have more money sitting on their gift cards unused than women\u2014$90 according to a survey; whereas women typically have $54 sitting on their gift cards. Also a generational one: millennials, according to the same survey, have an average of $97 on unused gift cards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAnother question that that I have is what happens eventually if a gift card isn\u2019t redeemed? We know that in the case of banks, for example, unclaimed monies are returned to the Crown. Should it be the case that unclaimed monies on gift cards are returned to the Crown? Very similar principle at play here. Or does that money, and should it, accrue to a retailer who has issued that gift card and who has accounted for it throughout? That seems to me, again, an issue that needs closer scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo bearing in mind the challenges with making a really good fit for purpose law here, and the issues that sit already in the system with gift cards that are not redeemed, that are unfortunately meaning that Kiwis are not getting to spend money in a time when money is tight\u2014things are pretty tough. We know that many of the markers we see are moving in the right direction, but there\u2019s no doubt that lots of Kiwis are doing it tough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis Government\u2019s sought to address some of those challenges directly through things like the action on supermarkets that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2014well, I had the privilege of leading, but the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has now picked up, and appointed a Grocery Commissioner to oversee the sector because we know there was a million dollars a day being made in excess profits after a very thorough inquiry into the sector. We know that there\u2019s going to be an investigation into banking profits and so on. These things, like the $5 prescription\u2014scrapping of the co-payment for prescription medicines, and so on, are measures that this Government is taking to make sure that Kiwis have more of their money in their own pockets. Free public transport for kids aged five to 12, and also things like the child support pass on to address child poverty. There are lots of things we can do to make sure Kiwis get to spend their money wisely, and keep more of their money in a difficult time. Certainly not uncosted tax cuts\u2014don\u2019t hear me arguing that in this House. I\u2019ll leave that to others to try and make that case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis side of the House will be supporting this bill. We think that the principle is right, that it should be the case that there should be a longer expiry date on these cards so that Kiwis get a fair chance to spend money that has been gifted to them in a gesture often around a birthday or a significant occasion, and that short expiry dates are really removing consumer\u2019s rights. That\u2019s not a situation that we think should stand, so we\u2019re going to support this bill to select committee. We look forward to the challenges that are inherent in it being addressed by the select committee process, and I congratulate the member, Melissa Lee, on bringing this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022562b61ddaf414180b72dc4961745806e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022562b61ddaf414180b72dc4961745806e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Damien Smith\u2014five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022588c3db4f5bc4926b87bbf987ea7b6a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022588c3db4f5bc4926b87bbf987ea7b6a0\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Congratulations to the member for bringing the bill to the House. The objective of the bill is to extend the period in which a recipient can redeem their gift cards, to avoid consumers missing out on potentially purchasing goods with their gift card because the credit expired before they used it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe bill seeks to prohibit the selling of gift cards with an expiry date of less than three years after the initial sale date, giving the recipient a more reasonable period in which to redeem its full value. This will apply to vouchers redeemable for goods and services and retailers but will not include prepaid cards for phone credit or internet access or any cards provided as part of a customer loyalty scheme. It also excludes any cards issued by financial institutions such as credit, debit, or prepaid travel currency cards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe position of the ACT Party is that the Government should have no role in dictating the time periods which private businesses must make their gift cards available for, or viable for. The bill is not a good use of Parliament\u2019s time. The objective of this bill is worthy; however, ACT will not be supporting it at its first reading but will await what is produced by the select committee to cover those areas of concern. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00224011403f4120452fa06cb059c456f84c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224011403f4120452fa06cb059c456f84c\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m delighted to support this bill, which is really about fairness, and the Labour Party is all about fairness. It\u2019s logical, it\u2019s rational, because if you look at what is a gift card, it\u2019s really an elegant way of trying to give somebody some money but acknowledging what their interests are in life, showing that one has an understanding that somebody might have an interest in sport or music or something else\u2014or perhaps it\u2019s about encouraging a spend in that area. Certainly, I can imagine well-meaning grandparents giving gift cards, for example, for bookstores, perhaps trying to get their grandchildren off devices, and so on. So it is an elegant way of giving a gift, and it seems very \u201CGrinchy\u201D and unfair that it\u2019s time-bound. So there\u2019s no reason really not to pass the law that would allow a reasonable amount of time for the gift card to be spent\u2014three years, five years. I agree with the Hon Dr David Clark\u2014we need to look at what that appropriate time frame is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut we do need to take into account the fact that people do lose or misplace gift cards\u2014especially according to the statistics, men, who have a higher propensity to do so, or perhaps that they don\u2019t get to the shops as often because they\u2019re working and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe have seen from the research that 50 percent of people have three main issues with gift cards. One is checking the balance; I think it would be great if there was an easy way to check the balance. The other two, I\u2019m not sure that legislation or regulation can resolve, which are the limited number of stores\u2014if somebody chooses to direct the gift at a particular store, then that\u2019s really their prerogative. And the third one, if somebody is struggling to find something at that store, then I suggest perhaps they trade in their grandparents or the person who has given the gift card, because clearly they have no idea what the person is interested in!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut a shout-out actually to Bunnings and to Barkers who perhaps have recognised the gender bias that seems to exist in who loses gift cards: they don\u2019t have expiry dates on their gift cards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to shout-out also to Consumer magazine because some of the research\u2014the valuable research\u2014in this area came from Consumer magazine, who have shown that one in five people who receive gift cards have found that they\u2019ve expired before they get to use them, through either delay in going shopping or perhaps losing them, but also have provided that valuable insight around some gift cards for Australasian stores not being able to be used in New Zealand, when in fact they could be used in Australia due to the legal regime there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly and I and Damien Smith were on a podcast recently called Consume This, and gift cards came up. We were asked about it, and I must confess, I wish I\u2019d known about the member\u2019s bill. I did support the idea of looking at regulating gift cards when asked about it. If you do want to hear that podcast, gift cards and other things around market interventions to do with things raised by previous speaker Dr David Clark around groceries and so on are also traversed in that podcast on Consume This.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da8784847959417d98b6ddff6d26dc3c\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Shameless self-promotion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022684440346d164bedb5606cfa1beca48a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: It was not really self-promotion, Andrew Bayly, because I believe you\u2019re on that podcast too. So a little bit of promotion for Consumer, who, I have to say, do a really good job for consumer rights, whose research is evidence-based, who can then get their research picked up by members of this House who can bring in bills like this really useful bill from Melissa Lee. So good shout-out to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut, as I say, when it comes down to it, gift cards are simply an elegant way of giving somebody a gift that is similar to money, perhaps a little bit more limited, in a way that acknowledges that the person who\u2019s giving the gift recognises the interest area of the person receiving it and is trying to express that; there\u2019s no reason that should be time-bound or -limited. Therefore, having a regime that follows international best practice, that has a reasonable expiry date that isn\u2019t forever\u2014because we know businesses change or that it could be cumbersome for business if a gift card were, say, to be presented 15 or 20 years later. So a reasonable amount of time in the legislation would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s no reason not to do it. It\u2019s about fairness. The Labour Party is all about fairness. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022965781b982c047c2818e9e2d3267eb2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022965781b982c047c2818e9e2d3267eb2c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to support the Fair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill and want to commend the member Melissa Lee for bringing this forward. I think Mt Albert candidates have had pretty good luck with members\u2019 bills being drawn this term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFor the Greens, this is a common-sense bill that would benefit consumers and address what is inherently an unfair arrangement with gift cards that does mean consumers are missing out on being able to cash them in due to the fact that many of them have very short-range expiry dates. So, for the Greens, this makes absolute sense in terms of prohibiting, basically, expiry cards that have an expiry date of less than three years being sold. I want to acknowledge Consumer New Zealand for their advocacy on this issue and for raising this to the public, and politicians then acknowledging that there is an equity issue in terms of low-income communities ultimately losing out the most when their gift cards expire and they\u2019re not able to cash them in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge that for many volunteer organisations, gift cards actually are one of the ways in which they recognise the contributions that volunteers have made, and so this also will help better support people who are part of that sector. So we\u2019re looking forward to having a good discussion with the select committee process, particularly around whether it should be three years, whether it should be longer. But I think the nature of better protection for consumers is something we can absolutely get behind. So I\u2019m pleased to support this bill and to vote for it in later stages. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00227a1fe9460eee448aa8aebf57529a3b1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a1fe9460eee448aa8aebf57529a3b1e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, Madam Speaker, obviously there\u2019s a bit of hesitation from the Government side there on taking a call, so I thought I might quickly jump up and take this call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I just want to congratulate Melissa Lee, who\u2019s had 15 proud years serving this Parliament. I think this is her third member\u2019s bill. Hopefully, with the support of Government, this will pass. But it\u2019s a pretty outstanding result to get to this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019ve heard this bill is about expired gift cards. It\u2019s interesting, looking at this, that\u2019s roughly a quarter of a billion dollars\u2019 worth of value left on unused cards at present. On average, consumers have three of them\u2014which I find surprising. And there\u2019s an estimated $10 million of outstanding or wasted gifts that are not redeemed within time. When you hear that sort of estimate, it\u2019s quite staggering. I\u2019ve got to say that I find the comments that men lose cards more often than women slightly disconcerting. I\u2019m not sure where the basis came from for that that the previous member spoke about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut I think this is an interesting bill. It\u2019s obviously one that has a financial cost to consumers. It\u2019s good that the House is supporting it\u2014other than our friends from the ACT Party. I think Ingrid Leary spoke about the contribution of Consumer New Zealand\u2014that is right; they certainly have done some work around it. I think it should pass through; I hope it does. I\u2019m keen to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1754e4125634a92b64db4cb95916719\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1754e4125634a92b64db4cb95916719\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker. Thank you very much. First of all, congratulations to my colleague Melissa Lee for having her bill drawn out of the cookie tin, for this bill. It\u2019s really lovely to see more bills being taken in the consumer affairs space. My one is also one that is, so I\u2019m wishing for luck as well here. But, also, I really hope that my colleague will send this bill to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. I think this is a bill that we would love to hear submissions on and making sure that we get into the weeds of all this. I think definitely in the select committee stage we\u2019d be looking for things like unintended consequences, things like stories, as well, of how this bill will affect everyday New Zealanders\u2019 lives. But, also, I really do want to hear from the retailers as well, those who do actually issue gift cards, to see what their thoughts are on this bill and maybe some of the minor details that they would have in suggesting either amendments or things that they would see as really improving this bill, also making sure that their voices are incorporated into this as well. Like I said, there\u2019s always unintended consequences, and I just haven\u2019t\u2014out of all of the documents that I\u2019ve seen here, there hasn\u2019t been the other side, of the issuing retailer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe know that different businesses and different retailers have different business models. As I was sitting there contemplating this bill, I thought of the Costco model. The Costco model makes profit based on people\u2019s membership, actually, not by the profit they make on the products. So, in fact, they issue out membership just to rely on the fact that, actually, people don\u2019t go and shop there; that they buy membership and that\u2019s the end of it. That\u2019s their relationship with their consumers, and that\u2019s where the bulk of their profitability comes from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe know that in our New Zealand retailers, issuing gift cards is also a really big part of their profitability as well. I read here in a stat as well that there has been $267 million unspent value on gift cards, and so making sure that we unlock that value, especially as we know that New Zealanders are facing hardship at the moment, that\u2019s probably something that we\u2019re really keen to explore in the select committee stage of this bill. As my colleagues have no doubt already expressed, the Labour Party will support this through the first reading, and then we\u2019ll see what happens during the select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ESo, as I talked about those who we invite to come in to do a submission on this bill, the other stuff that I actually really wanted to hear about specifically as well is actually COVID, during the probably, you can argue, four years of COVID, whether there have been especially different, I guess, effects on the whole gift card as well, knowing that, you know, not every gift card works on online shopping scenarios\u2014trust me; I know that\u2014and making sure that the gift cards apply to all different situations as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI was just sitting here thinking of other ways to draft this bill as well; perhaps it\u2019s making sure that there\u2019s a mandatory\u2014so I think this bill suggests three years for everything, but I know that there are six months and 12 months as well; that\u2019s probably the most popular, making sure that it only goes to one particular date out of the two as well. So there\u2019s lots and lots of different ways that we can definitely find the balance, but I think however we land, we make sure that our consumer voices are heard through this, and I think the issuing retailers, for me, is just the other side of the story, making sure that we mitigate all unintentional consequences. Definitely, as always when we pass bills like this, we love to hear from the legal community as well, because they definitely have the other side of making sure that when these laws go and get challenged in the courts or in authorities like the Commerce Commission, we always actually get the right balance in this as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI know that a lot of times reading the fine print is not something that you can expect all consumers to do, and so making sure that we read the expiry dates on it is not a practical thing, and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s fair to print it so small on a gift card. It\u2019s eyesight problems. It\u2019s accessibility issues as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ESo, I think this is a bill that we\u2019re proud to support through to select committee stage, and, like I said, I hope my colleague decides to send it to our select committee. I think it\u2019s a great select committee to work collegially on this, and I really do look forward to examining this bill further then. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf824665e1d342ceada1fb824f727046\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf824665e1d342ceada1fb824f727046\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise to support this bill. It\u2019s a fantastic bill and well done for bringing it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENow, I have heard that men actually are a lot worse at redeeming their gift cards than women are\u2014astounding, eh? Well, I will admit that I am one of those guys. I hope my wife isn\u2019t watching this, because I was cleaning out my office recently and amongst a whole lot of stuff was a gift card.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a96f720747d48b6b1f9f46ae18f3a0d\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: For a facial?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7c7b50b1c4645cfac3aa69eda808dfa\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: R.M.Williams, actually; quite a lot of money\u2014quite a lot of money. I looked at this and went, \u201CShivers, this is expired.\u201D I thought, \u201CWhat do I do?\u201D Do I tell her, when she asks, \u201CWhat did you spend that amazing amount of money on that I gave you for your birthday?\u201D You know, that\u2019s the thing, right? There\u2019s a little white lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBut what I thought I would do is give R.M.Williams a call and go, \u201CYou know what? It was the middle of COVID. I couldn\u2019t get to you. Things were really busy. Is there any way that you can allow me to spend the money when the contract between R.M.Williams and the person who bought the gift card has expired? Come on; do the right thing.\u201D Now, I actually didn\u2019t end up calling them. The gift card is still sitting on my desk at home. I might even do this, especially now that I\u2019ve read this and realise that we leave over $200\u00A0million on the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENow, this is a contract, right? This isn\u2019t as if you get the card and then you spend the money; the money has already transacted. The money is already in the bank account of the retailer who has issued that card. I will also say that I found a book card from my in-laws and I also found a garden card that was given to me by someone\u2014I don\u2019t know who that was from\u2014and a Mitre 10 card. I don\u2019t know how much was on that, but it\u2019s still there. So I am that guy. The reason why is that I am really difficult to buy for, so, to everyone who buys for me, give me cash. It\u2019s easier than giving me a card. It means the same thing. But it is\u2014they\u2019re easy, right? And they are very convenient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIt is why we have these gift cards, because for some people they are really, really difficult to buy for. So what you do is you go, \u201CI know this guy loves books. I know he loves the garden.\u201D\u2014well, we haven\u2019t got that; got it a little bit wrong\u2014\u201CHe wears R.M.Williams, but I don\u2019t know what sort of book to buy him. Do I buy him the latest biography written by Paul Goldsmith?\u201D\u2014no; that will be a waste of money because it will never get read\u2014\u201CDo I buy him a history book? Do I buy him a book on history? Do I buy him a book on politics?\u201D What do you get him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn fact, it is recognition that they\u2019ve thought about the gift but they don\u2019t quite know you well enough to go that next step and buy the book, even though you can stick an exchange card in the middle, so you buy a gift card. It is the perfect gift, right? It\u2019s easy. It fits in an envelope. Yeah, sure, they know how much you spent on them, but when it\u2019s family or good friends, that\u2019s OK\u2014that\u2019s OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn fact, my 11-year-old son went to a birthday party over the weekend\u2014two birthday parties, actually\u2014and the vast majority of things that these kids got were gift cards. Now, they\u2019re normally spent within about 24 hours\u2014I\u2019ll be honest with you\u2014but it is easy. Melissa, the thing about this is: for guys like me, we don\u2019t go out there and buy things, because we sit on things, right? We don\u2019t procrastinate; we mull over what is the best thing to do. It sits on the table there. It sits on the table there, and it\u2019s constantly front of mind. Then when we\u2019re going down to the bookstore, we go, \u201CI\u2019m going to take that card.\u201D When you\u2019re going to the movies and you\u2019re a little bit short of cash: \u201CI\u2019ll take that movie card.\u201D Then you turn it over and go, \u201CI\u2019ve been procrastinating about this for a little bit too long.\u201D Three years, however; I would still have this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s only fair, because there is an implied contract between the retailer or whoever issues the card, and the purchaser. I think with any implied contract there should be a definitive period of time\u2014I buy into that\u2014whether it\u2019s three years, whether it\u2019s five years or whatever; it doesn\u2019t really matter, but the money has already exchanged hands. As a consequence of that, I think three years is enough time for this to go into the wallet or go into the console in the middle and then to be discovered again and then to be redeemed. Anything longer than three years, I get it; maybe you have lost it. I get that. I get it. Five years is perhaps a little bit too long; one year is not long enough. You\u2019ve picked the perfect sweet point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe fact that Consumer New Zealand calls for this, the fact that Kiwis are leaving\u2014what is it?\u2014$250 million - plus on the table means that there are a whole lot of people like me who find these gift cards and go, \u201COh yeah, that\u2019s right.\u201D, then turn it over and go, \u201CWhat do you mean I only had a year to spend this?\u201D It doesn\u2019t work. So, Melissa, I support this 100 percent. If you can make it retrospective, that would be really helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e28b2609b8f64a3b8d63485919617d24\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: You can make a submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e7dd49b3a9848ddacecc63f5f301012\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I might, as a member of the public, if it goes to select committee. But I am a big fan of this because, as a number of Labour people have talked about, it\u2019s just about fairness, and the Labour party is the party of fairness. It\u2019s why we support this 100 percent. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022042886f27bd444c5a70e1a490d52480f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022042886f27bd444c5a70e1a490d52480f\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Fair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill. Can I begin by congratulating Melissa Lee on having her bill pulled from the biscuit tin, and I look forward to seeing this bill go through the House and submissions on any particular changes that may be needed for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been interesting, just during my colleague Stuart Nash\u2019s contribution, myself and my colleague Glen Bennett have had a bit of a chat, actually, about a couple of scenarios which I\u2019ll get to soon, which I think could also be considered for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI have a recent example in Nelson of someone purchasing a voucher at a very, very, very high amount and having a very short time frame on it and losing out. So, as you may know, many charities around the country will often have auction nights. We had one last year for the Cancer Society and very generously a travel voucher\u2014quite a significant travel voucher\u2014had been provided for the auction and someone bid on it and spent quite a few thousands of dollars. A bit of chatter went around the room when we were at the same auction this year when someone started bidding on the same auction prize this year, and it turned out it\u2019s the same person because they bid on it last year and the voucher expired. So they literally spent thousands on some travel vouchers and they expired. And they were so generous that they came back for round two. But it does speak to the need for this bill, that there needs to be an element of fairness in how long those vouchers can expire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThere should be a limit at some point, although I would note if you\u2019ve bought a voucher for $100 now, in 10, 20 years\u2019 time it probably won\u2019t mean so much to the retailer. I imagine if someone picks up a voucher in their office, like Mr Nash did, that might be 20 years old, it might only be a $10 voucher, so it\u2019s not going to be as big a deal, is it? But this bill is really sensible, and Mr Bennett and I were just having a quiet conversation here\u2014we weren\u2019t, of course, speaking over my colleague while he was giving his speech\u2014about what would happen, and I think this is something that would be interesting for the committee to look at, what would happen if the business changed hands. And, actually, that exact situation happened to me. A friend of mine very kindly purchased me a voucher for my birthday and it was for a beauty salon. They changed hands within about a month of purchasing the voucher, so really soon. So the voucher had a one-year expiry on it, but the business changed hands pretty much immediately after it was purchased. I\u2019m interested about that because they were really, really good, the new business honoured the voucher, which was great, and they\u2019ve now actually got a loyal customer out of me and I\u2019ve been going back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo that probably is something I think that needs to be looked at\u2014in fairness to the new business as well, because they would need to know that there were a number of outstanding vouchers available. But you would expect, for a business like that, it should be something that gets built into their business model, an expectation. Something like a beauty salon, that is an area where people will often purchase vouchers, that if there is a change of ownership that there perhaps could be some acknowledgment of that in the bill. So I encourage the member and the committee to look at that particular scenario, because it is one that crops up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo this is a really good bill. We do see a real anomaly in the law here, a lot of people will, in good faith, go and purchase a voucher. In my family, it\u2019s quite common. I\u2019m one of eight children, so it was the common Christmas Eve rush around the mall looking for gifts for each other, and often the easy gift was to get a voucher\u2014and then sometimes we\u2019d swap with each other if someone got a voucher they preferred to somebody else. Very common gift item in my family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIt is frustrating, though, when you\u2019ve bought something for someone\u2014actually, with kindness behind it and wanting to purchase something nice for somebody\u2014and then to see it\u2019s only got a three-month or a six-month expiry. I think we\u2019ve probably all had that experience ourselves, where\u2014I certainly have had the odd-voucher where I have gone to look at it and gone, \u201COh three months.\u201D, and you wouldn\u2019t even have thought that. So I think three years seems like a good kind of fair time frame for me. I\u2019m sure there will be submissions through the committee on that exact issue and I think it will be a really, really good bill to progress to protect our consumers and to introduce more fairness into the system. On that note, I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u00228e8ee2d016b44946ac9416957a70d03a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e8ee2d016b44946ac9416957a70d03a\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have to confess that I\u2019m not one who buys gift cards, nor am I one that\u2019s good at spending gift cards. I had to take the conversation before from Stuart Nash around teenagers, and it has become such a very popular way of teenagers\u2014for birthdays and for Christmases\u2014coming together to be able to afford a good present for a friend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003ESo I refer to my daughter, Olivia, who actually just last week said, \u201CMum, we\u2019re all going in to give one of my friends for their birthday a gift from Cotton On, we\u2019re all putting in what we can afford\u2014it\u2019s a gift card\u201D. And I said \u201CSo you don\u2019t want to go down to Cotton On and buy your friend a present?\u201D She said no, because then they can spend it on whatever they want. I was thinking about that and thinking, well, you know, if they\u2019re given it at 14 and they don\u2019t spend it until they\u2019re 17, they might have grown up a few sizes, but it\u2019s still well worth them being able to spend it on what they wish to spend it on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EI did have a question that I hope will be clarified around those who buy gift cards but they are aligned to an actual service, such as going to a beauty salon or a spa where somebody might actually gift a massage, not actually a monetary value, but an actual massage. So what would happen there if it was actually connected to a particular service? I also think it\u2019ll be good to hear from the retailers and those businesses that are offering gift cards, because if you have sold that service but that service is not then used or that money has not spent for three years, when it comes to actually providing that things may have changed in the business, and you may well have sold the business. So I think that those are facts that will need to be worked through in the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EOne of the gift cards that I do think is one that I have\u2014I was thinking \u201CHave I actually purchased any gift cards?\u201D\u2014and the other one would be for at the supermarket. I often think that that is a very good gift to give somebody who may use it over a period of time. So that again, I think, is a good way to gift on a gift card. However, I do wonder why people don\u2019t give them to me. Maybe it\u2019s that they like buying me actual gifts rather than\u2014and think about it when they do. As somebody who likes to go shopping, I do enjoy also purchasing gifts for people and seeing them wrapped up in a present. So I might, now that I see this bill coming through the House, give a little bit more thought to using a gift card, but I\u2019d probably have to wrap it up in a big box with a big ribbon, and make it feel like I\u2019m actually giving a gift.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EI was not surprised that there was nearly $254 million worth of gift cards that are not used, a year, which I thought \u201CWow that\u2019s significant, isn\u2019t it?\u201D If that\u2019s sitting on somebody\u2019s businesses\u2019 books, and they still have to get those purchases or services out the door. I do wonder about the deadline. I think that sometimes we need deadlines to get things done, and to spend, and get the service under way. So on that, I wonder whether three years will be what comes back from retailers, or, yes we\u2019ve seen that that\u2019s what Australia does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EBut I commend the member for\u2014congratulate the member for having it pulled from the biscuit tin, and, like the rest of my colleagues over here, we are supporting the bill, and it\u2019s good to be speaking positively on something. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00225a45194aa50f46c9a4fa7f0c2cdfb64b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a45194aa50f46c9a4fa7f0c2cdfb64b\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I think there is a saying along the lines of \u201Cthree times the charm\u201D. This is my third member\u2019s bill that has actually been drawn, and I\u2019m so pleased that this will finally get to select committee and have the public submit on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank all of the members who have actually spoken for their considerate speeches and giving out anecdotes and examples of their personal experience, which is actually really wonderful. In terms of the Hon Stuart Nash, who actually talked about how he mulled over too long to find at least three gift cards in his office desk. I just say maybe he shouldn\u2019t have mulled over it too long, but most of us tend to do that. When we get a gift card, we actually put it away, because it is valuable and is something that someone has considered to give us, a meaningful thing. They couldn\u2019t quite figure out what exactly to get for us, so we actually get the gift, and we think about it, and you forget about it. It\u2019s in the wallet, or it\u2019s in the back drawer, or it\u2019s in the desk drawer, and sometimes you forget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIn an example that I gave earlier, there was a family member who had actually received a gift card from a store, and the family member had since died, and the store closed. That actually means that the gift card has since expired, and it has been many years since that gift card has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ETo the question of Anna Lorck, who wanted to know if vouchers for services were what we are actually talking about: in the actual bill at clause 24A(4) and (5), it says, \u201Cgift card means a card or voucher (in hard copy or electronic form) that is redeemable for goods or services, but does not include\u2014(a) a card supplied in substitution for goods returned to the supplier of the goods; or (b) a prepaid card or voucher redeemable for phone credit, internet access, or other similar services; or (c) a debit card, credit card, prepaid travel card, or any similar products supplied by a financial institution; or (d) a card or voucher supplied as part of a customer loyalty programme. (5) This section only applies to a gift card sold after the commencement of this section.\u201D\u2014of the Fair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EConsumer organisations have actually been very, very active in wanting to protect our consumer rights, and having more than $267 million worth of gift cards not being used is completely unfair, when the businesses have in fact received the money, and the purchaser or the giftee of the gift cards cannot actually use it because of the expiry date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI look forward to the select committee process, where I will have an opportunity to listen to all of the submissions. Thank you to everyone for sending this to a select committee. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000233\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002205a6d8629db547c58ef3acf9e08fb79e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205a6d8629db547c58ef3acf9e08fb79e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Fair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill be considered by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9cae40c40e94170b193510ab386a26b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9cae40c40e94170b193510ab386a26b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Congratulations to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228697d2b97d534b88afd01907b1dfb615\u0022\u003EParental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002242ae44aa7e2946caa475b28253c02147\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1adc4aee6ee42de81d130914331bf93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1adc4aee6ee42de81d130914331bf93\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, happy day. This is one of those days in Parliament where we have the opportunity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a3248c6585540318635993a07664cb0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! My apologies; if you could move your bill please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214a54bfcda1d4371b14e6c9eaf3aec1c\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I move that this House introduce the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022311da7805c5c4311b90ed4084577c668\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member could just read it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224260e0e088f342fb838a88c3184c1d5c\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to be very precise about this. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Finance and Expenditure Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EOh, happy day. Now that we have introduced this member\u2019s bill in my name, I want to make some pre-emptory celebration, because I think that this is an opportunity for Parliament to work in the way that so many New Zealanders ask us to make it work but that is often not the case. And that is, we can use this time to make a pragmatic, modernising change to a piece of legislation that has become out of step with modern families but to which we together as parliamentarians, free from ideology or political partisanship, can make a good change that will make a difference to parents and caregivers across the country. I hope that all political parties will support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it modernises paid parental leave rules by giving parents more flexibility to share their leave entitlements. In New Zealand, we have paid parental leave for caregivers. While parents and caregivers can nominate who receives that entitlement, there are currently rigidities around how they use it. What I want to see is those rules being loosened so that parents have more flexibility about the choices they make in their caregiving arrangements during those first few weeks of parental leave with a new baby. This bill modernises the outdated existing rules by allowing parents to divide their paid leave between themselves in the way they think best, so it allows them to take it at the same time, to take it one after the other, or to take it in overlapping instalments. It frees up parents to make exactly the choices that best suit their personal circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhether you\u2019re a dad wanting to support mum in the first few weeks after birth and take your paid leave at the same time as her, right now our archaic law will not allow that. This bill will make it possible. Whether you wish to share your paid parental leave between two primary caregivers in overlapping instalments, right now the law will not allow you to do that. This bill will let you do that. It recognises that the choice belongs to families and shouldn\u2019t belong to a rule book bound up in a Government department. As we stand here today, outdated Government rules are getting in the way of families doing what they think is in the best interests of their own babies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI think about how much things have improved in terms of the way we view those early weeks with a baby, in terms of the ways we view the need for support, and in the way that we recognise that people would arrange the care arrangements not according, necessarily, to gender or traditional roles but according to the circumstances of their own families. This bill seems an absolutely sensible and pragmatic evolution along that path. It\u2019s a good thing when you can make a practical change that makes a difference without creating any extra cost for the taxpayer, and that is the case with this bill. What it doesn\u2019t do is increase the overall leave entitlement that is available to parents; it simply says, \u201CHere\u2019s your bucket of entitlement; divide it between yourselves as you wish. If you want to do six weeks together, go ahead. If you want to do it in overlapping bits, go ahead.\u201D All of those choices can be made without any impact on Government funding and without any impact on the choices available to Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe only people those choices impact are the parents and the child in that home. Anyone opposing this kind of modernisation, I think, would be inserting themselves into families and saying that Government knows better than they do about how they should use the entitlements they are given. I believe it would be unconscionable for anyone in this House in 2023 to take that stance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m feeling a little bit nervous, I\u2019m noticing interjections from across the House, I\u2019m seeing furrowed brows on the faces of Labour backbenchers, and I think we may have a situation, team. I think we may genuinely be in a situation where members opposite\u2014out of partisan, petty politics\u2014may oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224964d5c59aa84398a7c249274f142599\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, say it\u2019s not so!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f870da20400549eea44e175cf9b1987e\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I sincerely hope it\u2019s not so. If it\u2019s not the case, I apologise for impugning you in that way, because surely\u2014surely\u2014that would not be possible. Surely a modern Labour Party that says that it wants to represent the best interests of families and children would not neglect the opportunity to modernise this outdated piece of law. To do so would be unconscionable. It would be out of step with modern families. It would be out of step with modern parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAs I look around this House, I think of all of my colleagues, on this side of the aisle and on that side of the aisle, who themselves have had babies and who have had them in such different circumstances. We\u2019ve had babies to all sorts of caregiving arrangements with dads and mums, married couples, unmarried couples, mums as primary caregivers, dads as primary caregivers, and adopted dads as primary caregivers. In my world, all of that is great, because what matters is the love a parent or a caregiver shows for their child. In my world, what doesn\u2019t matter is outdated rules telling you how you should do it best. The idea\u2014the idea\u2014that Government rules would stand there and say, \u201CWell, actually, the way that we think it should happen is one parent at a time. We disagree with the idea that two parents should take it at the same time.\u201D Well, you know what? It\u2019s none of Government\u2019s business. I believe that parents and caregivers are best placed to make the choices for their babies and their kids about how they raise them. What matters is the love that they give them and the care and stability that they give them. This bill is a logical progression in support of that philosophy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo, as I stand here, I make this plea: sometimes, my fellow Labour colleagues, a member\u2019s bill comes to your caucus and you might have someone stand up\u2014a Minister\u2014and say, \u201COh, look, we\u2019ll oppose this because it\u2019s a National bill; we\u2019ll oppose this because we don\u2019t want Nicola Willis to get a win.\u201D Well, I would plead to you, when it comes to something this simple that comes at no cost to anyone, don\u2019t stand on the priggish side of partisan politics; do what\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb17e7caa7845fba99d126848682f0a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c418d60b1de144c5a36af80d9ee59bbc\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t laugh when, actually, there are mums and dads and parents who this affects who have written to me and said, \u201CWhy is the law this way? Why is it stopping my family doing it?\u201D Don\u2019t laugh at this change, which is exactly what Parliament is meant to do. It\u2019s meant to take the statute book and say, \u201CWhat\u2019s in keeping with our modern communities? What\u2019s out of step? How do we keep the law reflecting the values and ideals which we as a society wish to progress?\u201D Don\u2019t be MPs who stand in the way of that because someone in your caucus meeting said that politics is more important at this time in the political cycle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI welcome this opportunity to bring a bill to the House that will bring New Zealand\u2019s paid parental leave rules in line with the expectations of modern families. I want to pay tribute to Amy Adams, who first brought this bill to Parliament. I want to pay tribute to all of those men and women who through the years have made pragmatic changes to ensure that parents in those first such important days of children\u2019s lives are able to make the arrangements that provide them the stability and the choice that allows them to be good mums, dads, and caregivers. And I want to, once again, put it to you that parties who oppose bills in this House that come at no cost to anyone\u2014except for the political pride of those who oppose them\u2014are parties who are out of step with what really matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI think back to the time with my young babies. I admit I look on it nostalgically now, because probably at the time I was completely exhausted and stressed and all of those things\u2014I understand that\u2014but I look back on that time, and it is one of the most special and momentous times in anyone\u2019s life to be doing that job of bringing a child into the world, of giving them your love, and of raising them as well as you can. And if we in this House can step one step closer to making that profound experience a little more practical, then that\u2019s exactly what we should do. So I appeal to your better selves, members opposite. Do what\u2019s right; don\u2019t do what\u2019s political.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002271d3fb6089a24b40b03b5e210135a406\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271d3fb6089a24b40b03b5e210135a406\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00222e81a2345e2c473e9073f40fd4e58d59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e81a2345e2c473e9073f40fd4e58d59\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you for allowing me the opportunity to take a call on this member\u2019s bill, the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill, brought in the name of Nicola Willis, and I thank the member for bringing this important issue to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EParental leave and the paid aspect of parental leave have been important aspects of consideration for this House over a number of years. In preparation for this speech, I did actually go back and look at a lot of the history of paid parental leave and how it has been implemented within New Zealand. A common theme is that we actually started out in New Zealand with very, very few rights for paid parental leave and for parents to actually take time off to take care of children. That\u2019s because we had, for a very long time, a different system where most likely the mother, in most families, would take a large amount of unpaid leave\u2014maybe not entering the paid workforce at all\u2014in order to take care of children. The advent of paid parental leave is relatively modern in New Zealand and a world context. We need to recognise the fact that, these days, a lot of carers\u2014a lot of primary carers\u2014also have a paid job and shouldn\u2019t have to sacrifice their career to be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere is a proud history in this House of the consistent increase of paid parental leave and entitlements. So when this bill came to our caucus\u2014and I take the member\u2019s points in terms of her assumptions of the conversations that we had, but I can assure her that this is a bill that we looked at really carefully, and it does raise important issues which I think this House should take into account. It\u2019s something that needs attention in terms of not only the child in question but also the way that families do share and take care of their leave. I do think it is an important issue, so I don\u2019t want to belittle the issue by saying that it isn\u2019t important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not delaying saying how we\u2019ll vote on this for any anticipation means; we won\u2019t be supporting this bill. The reason that we won\u2019t be supporting this bill is because we see it taking away and having an impact on children and primary carers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220779ab41a3e647dca98a1b2ed81bf236\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so you know best! Labour knows best!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d28d3dd780940be9f13e5dfc5758a37\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: If members opposite would allow me to elucidate some of the thoughts on that, I would like to, because I do think it\u2019s an important issue, and I\u2019m not trying to minimise the importance of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe history of paid parental leave, that I was able to ascertain, started in 2001 with the Labour-Alliance Government. That was the introduction of 12 weeks\u2019 paid parental leave. Then we had an introduction of 14 weeks in 2005. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65a92b16f774bdcb05d3f92484dee13\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Shame on Labour!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e085e628f59a4908b3ba34f119f587e7\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: These are hard-won wins by campaigns run by women, mainly, and also by trade unions and by parents to actually get these entitlements. If we talk about shame and talk about people knowing best and not wanting to support parents, then we only have to look to 2015, when the majority of members of this House voted to increase paid parental leave to six months\u201426 weeks. And what happened then? We had a National Government in power, we had Bill English lose his financial veto\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc04419076994361a056b9f9f32b9886\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. Standing Orders require that members speak to the bill, which is a very specific bill about allowing caregivers and parents to share their paid parental leave entitlements as they see fit. It is not about a previous bill many years ago, and I would invite the member to speak to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4d21e6b24f4b77aa3b000581280411\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, speaking to the point of order. I\u2019m a new MP here, but I understood that points of order are to be heard in silence, is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255ff259af8dd4dddb3f0f8e6b37d2d86\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That is absolutely correct, and can I just appeal to all members in the House: this is a robust debate; members who have spoken previously\u2014there was no shouting down of the members. I would actually like, as the Speaker sitting on this Chair, to be able to hear the speech of the member Camilla Belich, so can we please be respectful of each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db719eb90102427d93f6c562b49d7787\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. So we did have that particular moment in the history of paid parental leave, which I do believe is relevant to this particular bill as it seeks to, in our view, reduce the entitlement of the paid leave in terms of time, which is important for children. In terms of time, if this bill was introduced, some children would receive less paid time available to their parents than they currently receive. So I do believe that the history of it, and the hard-won fights that people on this side of the House, myself included, were involved with to try and get this entitlement put there in the first place are relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe 26 For Babies campaign, which was the campaign that eventually\u2014if I continue with my history\u2014in 2017 increased paid parental leave to six months was a very, very hard-fought campaign. It actually required changing the Government to get this put in place. I don\u2019t necessarily want to make a contribution about the various parties and what they\u2019ve done wrong in the past; what I want to look at is what\u2019s best for children and for families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022857005c823f141fa97f07740f991cf8b\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: What if a mum\u2019s just had a caesarean and needs dad there? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022118a77fb1c8d4274a0cdb2a82ce3cf90\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: I do think the issue that the member has brought up is an important one, and people on the other side of the House are yelling at me, but what I want to say to you is that I think what the member has raised is important. We did consider it very, very seriously, and the reason that we are not supporting it is we do not want to see a situation of reduction. We think if more support is needed for babies and for other parents who are not the primary carer, then that should be looked at separately and not in a way that reduces entitlements. That is an important issue that should be looked at, but this bill, in our view, is not the way to advance that. I just wanted to go through all of that history, because it is really important, and I did, you know, start my speech by commending the member for bringing this bill and raising this important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe member brought up two things: she said that this does not impact on anyone else, just the family; she said it is at no cost. I disagree. This bill, if passed, would have an impact on children and on families in terms of the time that they have. We can look at the science behind that and the evidence on how important it is for children to be able to spend time with their families. So it does have an impact. It is not true to say that it has no impact. We know those first hundred days and that time that the children spend with their families are so important in their development and how they grow up as adults, so it does have an impact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c06bf8916c747b8aae664814e45470d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: So mums should stay at home, hey?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb40df1cedee44049da45238bcd95abb\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: No, absolutely not. It just does have an impact. It has an impact, and it does have a cost, because it reduces the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo what I would like to conclude with is just to say that I do think that the support\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022961c3059fa8446d48ce2e48356c678b2\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re standing here saying mums should stay at home\u2014unbelievable!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2319c9bafa242148524fc8fb8eb7bf4\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m absolutely not saying that; I\u2019m saying that the availability of time for primary carers should not be reduced, and this bill would do that. It would reduce the time available for primary carers if they chose to do that. What is available for New Zealanders at the moment is that if they want to take unpaid leave, if they want to take time out, and if they want to take annual leave, there are absolutely no restrictions on them doing that at the moment. What we\u2019re talking about is actual Government-provided paid parental leave and how that should be implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve said that getting to where we are now with six months\u2019\u201426-weeks\u2019\u2014paid parental leave was a huge fight for this country, a huge achievement. We do not want to see the amount of time that families have reduced, and we consider that this bill would do that. That\u2019s why, sadly, we cannot support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8cc5ea43131452aaa5fb11eca678194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8cc5ea43131452aaa5fb11eca678194\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise to speak to the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s a pleasure because, to me, it is just a no-brainer that we support this. When I looked at it, I thought, \u201CWhat am I actually to say about it?\u201D I couldn\u2019t think of much, because it was so sensible and so fair. During the debate on the last bill, the gift card bill, I heard a Labour member say that Labour is a party of fairness, and I think we\u2019re absolutely proving now that Labour is a party of petty politics. To bring up past, vindictive-type behaviour is, I think, quite unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe policy statement says the bill amends the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act 1987 to ensure that paid parental leave can be split between spouses or partners who are caring for the child and can be taken at the same time. The paid parental leave, as has been indicated, is not going to cost anything. It is a choice that the couple make. The couple are not forced into anything; it\u2019s their choice. The flexibility that that will allow will just make many families quite happy that they can choose to bring up their kids the way they want to and not the way the Labour Party thinks they should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EHaving both parents bringing up those young kids is really important in brain development, social development, and forming habits, and the health outcomes are known to be better. It\u2019s just a no-brainer in terms of the first few years of a baby\u2019s life. It\u2019s certainly not up to the Government, a political party, to decide how parents are going to bring up their kids as far as the leave goes\u2014I think that\u2019s quite despicable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThere will be a time in the future to discuss the Family Court and some of the decisions they make based on whether the parties are male or female, and we could discuss the fairness of a lot of those decisions. But that is for another time, not for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s an absolute pleasure to support this bill, and I\u2019m really disappointed in the attitude that Labour has taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u002253d7cea881fa477689f60057df79f025\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253d7cea881fa477689f60057df79f025\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to this bill as a mum of four children and as someone who chose, with my husband, that I would do the main parenting role while they were little. So I know very well the strains of being a young mum at home with young babies. Rightly or wrongly, we had three of ours within 3\u00BD years, and, boy, that was tough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ESo I do want to acknowledge Ms Willis for bringing this issue before us. It is a really heartfelt and important one; we need to talk about it. I am going to talk to my experience for a few minutes, if I may, in the context of this bill. So when I was a young mum, I had my small amount of parental leave under the previous regime, because my last baby was born in 2007, but my husband took his parental two weeks, because what we recognised was just how hard it is for young mamas to be alone with newborns\u2014particularly to be alone, may I say, with a two-year-and-one-week-old, a 3\u00BD-year-old, as well as a six-week-old; can I just put that out there. Yeah, it is really tough to do that. Tom took his two weeks. I was lucky: my mum took in a week as well, and they balanced those. I was so darn lucky to have that opportunity. You can look at this and say, \u201CIsn\u2019t this great for parents? It gives them the opportunity to do that shared parenting time and to cut that 26 weeks.\u201D\u2014as my colleague Ms Belich put it, those hard-won 26 weeks that we had to fight for in 2017. You can say that it increases fairness for those parents to be able to take those 26 weeks, but I think it\u2019s short-sighted. What it isn\u2019t looking at is that the reason we want that parental leave is not actually for the adults in the equation; it is for the babies. I have absolutely no compunction in saying it is our duty to take care of those who cannot care for themselves\u2014I say that as a parent, but I also say that as an MP\u2014and infants are the prime example of that. They need at least that 26 weeks of one-on-one intensive care, and I am concerned that while it sounds really nice to say, \u201CLet\u2019s enable the parents to cut this pie any way they want.\u201D, what you\u2019re really doing is creating an either/or, not an and/and.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI do invite Ms Willis to live up to the much-vaunting beginning of her speech where she talked about the need for cross-party collaboration on the issues that matter and to really engage with the Government\u2014whatever Government is in next time; I hope it\u2019s us\u2014who will continue to do the policy work that really isn\u2019t in this bill at this point. We do not need an either/or that, effectively, cuts the 26 weeks that our vulnerable infants get at this point, and that creates a half-situation where we are back to possibly worse than the 18 weeks the National Government fought so damn hard to keep us at. We need to not do an either/or. It is a false fairness. It is a false economy. It does not create equity. We need to be looking wider and more ambitiously. We need to be looking for an and/and. As someone who had a partner who took six months and swapped, I know how rich and valuable it is to be able to co-parent with another parent who has actually been there in the trenches with you on a full-time basis. It\u2019s vital. But Ms Willis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab34b812f05d4b41a4845c6ba62a2473\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, together, at the same time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221494fc4bfe794c4db9b56607f2c09234\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I would just say to the member opposite, let\u2019s have more ambition for our children and our families. Let\u2019s go beyond either/or, cut the pie, keep the pie smaller. Let\u2019s actually take this half-baked idea and turn it into something really magnificent and an and/and.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00224ad41d78ce1b44029e7d2c490b1235f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ad41d78ce1b44029e7d2c490b1235f9\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. With pleasure, I rise to speak to the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill in the name of Nicola Willis. I congratulate the member for getting the bill drawn, and I acknowledge Amy Adams, who I remember having this discussion with previously, when she last put it in front of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got, personally, a very long history with paid parental leave. I was part of the campaign team who got it introduced. We were one of last developed countries in the world to provide that support for our families. I am a huge believer in it. It\u2019s a policy that has multiple positive outcomes for our communities. One of them is that it\u2019s a very, very significant contributor in terms of reducing the gender pay gap, because women\u2019s time out of employment is\u2014often with caring responsibilities\u2014one of the main drivers of that gap. It\u2019s also a driver around women\u2019s attachment to employment, which has positive social outcomes, and it plays a really essential role in terms of supporting positive attachment in the early years and the wellbeing of our tamariki and children. The reason the six months\u2014the 26 weeks\u2014campaign was specifically in that link was to ensure breastfeeding was able to be supported at home during those early years, specifically in that time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe Greens, unlike Labour\u2014I understand the arguments that they\u2019re making, and I think they are genuinely valid arguments\u2014are supporting this bill today because we believe that the conversation is really an important one to have as a country. Women in this country have said that paid parental leave and the sharing of it and the ability for both partners to take parental leave is one of their priorities. There was a survey in 2022 of 3,500 women that said that making the leave entitlement available to both parents was their top-rated solution to support women to balance their caring responsibilities with other things in their life. That was ahead of even more Government funding for childcare. So if we\u2019re listening to women, then we do have to engage in this conversation. The National Advisory Council on the Employment of Women, way back in the day, in 2008, recommended paid paternity leave, leave specifically reserved for fathers of infants\u2014not this proposal, which is about sharing; it\u2019s about ring-fencing a specific allocation for the other parent, which is what we know, internationally, will have the impact of encouraging that other partner to take the leave. There\u2019s a very low uptake of parental leave for the other parent in this country. International evidence shows us that just enabling people on paper to share the leave, as this bill will do, does not make a difference in terms of the increase in that other partner taking the leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWhat makes the difference is a ring-fence provision of \u201Cuse it or lose it\u201D and\u2014possibly not surprisingly to many in this House\u2014increasing the payments that recognise that, actually, one of the major disincentives at the moment particularly for male partners from taking the leave is the massive drop in family income that comes about if they take the leave, because men are still far more likely to be paid much higher than their partners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAt the moment, there\u2019s been, under this Government, a 7.7 percent, I think, increase in paid parental leave. I want to acknowledge that, but that is still significantly below minimum wage. When families are struggling to pay the rent and pay the bills, we have to increase it. The Green Party policy is to have 100-percent payment of the average male wage, if we\u2019re going to be supporting our families, for 15 months\u2014this is the Green Party policy based on the best evidence of what will support our families\u2014and to increase it, to enable people to have it, and to ring-fence it, \u201Cuse it or lose it\u201D, for partners, because, actually, we need to make that commitment to our children and to our families and to reducing discrimination. We\u2019re happy to have the conversation and hear from New Zealand to get that result, which would be better than this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022013a70cc2c094ad8859dab768d6b515c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022013a70cc2c094ad8859dab768d6b515c\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill. Also, like others, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the member Nicola Willis for bringing this bill to the House and for raising this important issue that we are debating today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI feel like it would be useful, like other members have shared in this House, to share a little bit of personal experience. I find that it is important that, as MPs, we do that from time to time so that people know we are real people. In 2008, my wife and I had our first child. At the time, my wife was working as a school teacher. I was studying, and working part-time while I was studying. My wife received 12 weeks\u2019 paid parental leave. That was the amount at the time; it was 12 weeks. So she received that 12 weeks and, basically, gave up her teaching role, and I continued to study and work. Needless to say, our income was fairly modest at that time. We made the decision for my wife to do her very best to stay at home to look after the kids. We ended up having three more. We had four under five, which was a bit of a blur, really. I wouldn\u2019t recommend that, to be honest. It was a challenging time, but that 12 weeks of paid parental leave was absolutely vital for the early years of the life of our first son.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThere was an MP in the House at the time\u2014Sue Moroney; Labour MP\u2014and she was campaigning to see that increased from 12 weeks. She was successful in that, in terms of getting support\u2014I believe it was from the Hon Peter Dunne at the time\u2014to increase paid parental leave to 26 weeks, which is what we currently have. I agree with the previous Green member Jan Logie in terms of the benefits of having one of the parents at home with the child. It\u2019s incredibly challenging at the moment for a lot of people to be able to do that, and a lot of that I\u2019d put down to rising house prices. Also we acknowledge the challenges around the cost of living at the moment, but certainly the cost of rent and the cost of mortgages has gone up a lot, which means that it is very difficult to have a parent staying at home if the couple does want to go down that route. Personally, I think it is still the preferred route, in my personal opinion, to have a family member at home. We used to see a lot of that back in the 1940s, 50s, 60s, and 70s, but particularly in the 80s, we started to see a few changes in the area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation\u2014I guess, building on that\u2014talks about having some flexibility in that so that it doesn\u2019t have to be just, as it was in my case, the mother at home. At that time, I could have also got some paid parental leave, and we could have shared it, so I understand where the member\u2019s coming from. She certainly makes her arguments very clear in terms of the benefits of that flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EPersonally, after the election, I\u2019d like to see the Government of the day look into this issue, because I think it\u2019s an issue that is worthy of working with officials on and actively looking into, in terms of what the member\u2019s brought to the House today. So I do hope that, in the next term of Parliament, this is actively looked at. I would like to go on record by saying that I would like to see the Government of the day do that. Mr Speaker, thank you for the time today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e353b063e6004b11acec5fa42c2e6ad7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e353b063e6004b11acec5fa42c2e6ad7\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am a mother of five daughters, and my oldest daughter, Tabitha, turned 27 yesterday. When I was thinking and hearing about what people were talking about, it took me back to what it was like when Tabitha was born 27 years ago. We didn\u2019t have paid parental leave 27 years ago, and I went back to work when she was six weeks old. We were a young couple who had a mortgage to pay, my husband was a freezing works worker, and we couldn\u2019t afford to have me at home looking after my first baby. I can remember the challenges I had, even then, trying to establish breastfeeding, and 27 years ago, it was pretty much OK: I popped her on the bottle, went to work, and Mum came in and helped look after Tabitha.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EI then had Brittney and Augusta, and they, too, weren\u2019t at a time when there was paid parental leave. By the time I got to have Livia, who is now 14, there was paid parental leave. Having that time with my youngest baby made me realise then how significantly important it is for a mum to be able to spend time with their baby and to be able to breastfeed for six months. The greatest gift we can give a child is time\u2014it\u2019s time. This bill, the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill, will actually take a length of time away from the one-on-one attachment between a parent or a caregiver and the baby in those first six months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003ENobody knows how significant it is for a child to have that time, which all the research shows, and so I have spent some time thinking about this bill and looking at what it would really achieve. What it would achieve is\u2014yes, it might enable two parents to be together and to be with their young baby, but that will take time away from the length of time for which at least one parent doesn\u2019t need to return to work during those first six months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EWe wouldn\u2019t even be talking about this bill if it hadn\u2019t been for the Labour Party and being able to introduce paid parental leave\u2014something that, I\u2019ve already said, was never available to me as a young mum; it wasn\u2019t available to my mum, and it certainly wasn\u2019t available to my grandmother. To think now, as we go forward, that all five of my daughters will have that time with their children while they are first-time, second-time, third-time, or maybe five-time mums\u2014I can\u2019t wait to have grandchildren, by the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EI just think that we need to look at how we can enable something that is better than what\u2019s on offer in this bill. If we can come up with a way that does enable us to give the most time we can give for newborns to be with their parents, then I think we should. The main reason why I can\u2019t support this bill is that the greatest gift we can ever give a child is time. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00225855f35bbfcc47d59ccb0c8c3f206f9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225855f35bbfcc47d59ccb0c8c3f206f9c\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to talk about the great gift of time for a newborn to be with both parents, if there are two parents available. That is at the heart of this bill\u2014and I emphasise \u201Cthe heart of this bill\u201D\u2014that has been put forward by my colleague and friend Nicola Willis. I find it bizarre and ridiculous that we are hearing arguments from the other side of the House that they will not support this bill, which gives flexibility for different family arrangements and different circumstances in the way that we could have shared leave\u2014as that phrase was used in the bill\u2014to enable families to do what is right and what is best for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo we have, just to be clear, a situation where Nicola Willis has proposed a scenario whereby a family can choose that the amount of leave that they are already accorded, by way of parental leave, be sliced and diced in different ways, if that were to suit the family, in different circumstances. So it might be, for example, that both parents\u2014if, again, there are two parents, and I accept that\u2019s not always the case\u2014could take that leave both concurrently or in order, one after the other. Or it could be that they choose, of course, for the primary parent\u2014usually the mother, but not necessarily, again\u2014to have all that time in one hit, straight through\u2014just that person alone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThere are different circumstances that might suit different families according to their particular needs. Then, we come, therefore, to the question of choice. We\u2019re not saying, for example, that a family should not have the ability to have that maximum length of time in the very one-dimensional way that the Labour Party seems to consider the matter. Actually, it could be that the family does choose that. It might be that in a lot of situations, that\u2019s the case. But where they might choose something different because they know best what is best for their family\u2014not relying on being told that by speeches by Labour Party members in the first reading of this bill\u2014then, actually, they should be able to choose that. If this is a thing that belongs to them and it\u2019s for their benefit, then why on earth would a nanny State approach be taken that says that they can\u2019t take that in the way that best suits them? If you think about that phrase \u201Cnanny State\u201D, I mean, traditionally we think about the nanny telling the kids what to do. In this case, the Labour Party seems to want to tell the parents what to do as well, which I find is a strange intrusion for them to be wanting to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s deal with other potential objections to the bill. If we\u2019re thinking, \u201CWill this cost more to have two parents involved in taking the leave?\u201D, the answer is no, of course, because we\u2019re talking about, again, the same amount of leave that would be or could be split across two parents; we\u2019re not talking about any additional resources of the State. We\u2019ve heard the Green Party making a pitch for extra time, and I think we can all be sympathetic about that, even as we weigh the different costs and benefits available. But, in this case, that need not be an objection, because there is no additional time that\u2019s required; it would merely be that it could be taken in a different form and a different shape by the family, again, if they were to choose it. I find the idea strange that there needs to be more policy work done, somehow. More policy work is not required by the Government; it should be a decision of the family. So too we must acknowledge that there are no additional resources that are needed in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI do want to talk about flexibility, because that relates to the question of choice. This is why it\u2019s powerful that families would have the choice. In different circumstances, it might be that the mental health needs of the primary parent or the first parent or the one who would ordinarily, all things being equal, be providing that care for the whole time\u2014it might be that their mental health needs are best served by the second parent being available at the same time, right at the start. It might be that the physical health needs dictate that. By way of example, in the case of a caesarean-section birth, it might well be the case that a second pair of hands are needed to lift, to drive, and to do various things that are important at any stage of life, and, goodness knows, when one has a newborn child, that\u2019s all the more important. I don\u2019t usually speak about my own family situation in this House for various reasons, but suffice to say, I\u2019m aware of circumstances in which that would be very helpful. I think it\u2019s a real disappointment, to put it mildly, that there is such a lack of imagination across the other side of the House that they can\u2019t conceive of those scenarios in which that might be beneficial to families who are in that particular situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFor a first-time mother or new parents, it might be the case that this is particularly valuable, the proposal that Nicola Willis makes. It might be, in the case of second and subsequent children, particularly helpful, because the extra pair of hands is needed to take care of those older kids, depending on what they\u2019re up to and whether school or other care arrangements are needed. I can\u2019t understand the reason that the Labour Party\u2019s not supporting this\u2014unless it\u2019s politics, not policy. And I say to them, the National Party\u2014supported by anyone who also sees the common-sense arguments in favour of this bill\u2014will pass it with or without you, and if it be following the election rather than in this member\u2019s bill, now, in the name of Nicola Willis, then so be it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u002270f434a5aeb2422caaa583bf54272190\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270f434a5aeb2422caaa583bf54272190\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call to express my opposition to the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill. Before I begin my contribution, I just want to do a shout-out to all the parents here in the House and then also to the parents that are probably listening to question time while on their parental leave at home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EI have memories, when I was a young dad at home with the kids, of chucking the kids in the jolly jumper, while watching question time, and then running away to get bottles and things like that, and, yeah, using the jolly jumper for babysitting probably. That\u2019s probably why my boy is so keenly into politics right now. The big thing for me was just to make sure that the house was tidy enough by the time that my wife got home. That was always a challenge, but question time was a good babysitting mechanism for my kids. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ENow, this bill would allow paid parental leave to be split between spouses or partners who are caring for a child. In that way, during the birthing period, one partner could give the other partner a few weeks of their paid leave so they can both be home for the child. Now, while I truly believe the member that brought this bill before the House has the best of intentions, the bill, as it stands, I feel, doesn\u2019t quite go in the direction that we would like, and there is definitely a lot more work required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EParental leave is an important right for new parents. It has been shown that taking parental leave greatly relieves stress on new parents and allows them to create a stronger bond with their children. That\u2019s why Labour extended the paid parental leave to 26 weeks, in the first place, when we came into Government in 2017. This was in line with the recommendation of the World Health Organization of exclusive breastfeeding for children up to six months of age, and the finding that extending paid parental leave improved the health and happiness of both children and parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EWhen I think of parental leave, I also look at the support that\u2019s required inside those 26 weeks. I do have memories of\u2014you know, we only had one car at the time. I\u2019d get home from work, the car would be running in the driveway, Sheree would jump in the car, and then she\u2019d go to work. It was always like a double team in providing care for the kids. We were always short on cash, you know, and had to do side hustles to get enough money in the door to pay for things like formula and nappies. As we all know, those can be quite expensive. So I was very proud of Labour\u2019s policies. Things like free prescriptions go a long way. Things like the Best Start payments and fees-free, if you want to upskill while you\u2019re on parental leave, and things like that are very important and provide that holistic approach while parents are on parental leave\u2014and then also after those 26 weeks as well, because it doesn\u2019t mean that everything\u2019s OK after that 26-week mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EI think that this bill, as mentioned, has the best of intentions. I even agree with its goal to allow parents to spend more time with their children. However, the bill does not really achieve that. It does not represent real progress for parents. The bill divides existing leave between the partners, and it does not create any additional time for parents to be with their children. The overall paid parental leave time available to the family does not increase, as Camilla Belich mentioned in her contribution. The direction I want to go in is extending that leave for both parents overall. As it stands, the bill would only create more complications for parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EMy question is: why should we just slice it between parents? And if you look at the bill itself, under new section 9A, inserted by clause 5, it\u2019s got an example there where \u201CAbby is entitled to 26\u00A0weeks of primary carer leave.\u201D, and then \u201CAbby transfers 6 weeks \u2026 to\u201D\u2014who was it there?\u2014\u201Cher partner\u201D. Now, what if her partner was pressuring Abby to get back to work earlier so he could sit at home? I think sometimes there might be inequality there where the mother might feel compelled to get back to work earlier, which is not in the best interests of that young infant. So, for that reason, the bill, as it stands, I do not commend to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u002213e87b333d344b69a3e571413a83cc6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213e87b333d344b69a3e571413a83cc6c\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I probably might be the only non-parent that has taken a call on this bill here this morning, but I am the proud child of a gynaecologist, one who is trained in Western medicine, who has been working on the surgery table in the operating theatre, and one who\u2019s also trained in traditional Chinese medicine\u2014or TCM, as we call it. Gosh, the stories I had coming back to school from our family clinic when I was helping out at the front desk for my mum, helping her patients. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ENow, I don\u2019t know if the House knows this, but in Chinese traditional medicine, we have something called \u201Cfitting in for a month\u201D, or it\u2019s better translated into English as \u201Cthe confinement period\u201D. I know that in a lot of Asian cultures, we have this thing where mothers need to stay home for a whole, entire month after giving birth. So sometimes I do get a little bit astounded when meeting people who are holding their two-week-old baby and coming out to meet us, and I go, \u201CAren\u2019t you supposed to be at home? Aren\u2019t you supposed to be in a beanie?\u201D\u2014because we think we have to protect the head. You have to be kept warm, you have to have socks on your feet the whole time, and in ancient times, we didn\u2019t even allow women to wash their hair in that month as well, because it lets away the good energy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe feed them very nutritious food: a diet of chicken soup, pig trotters\u2014because it has collagen to help with breast milk production\u2014and a special regime. Then the whole family comes in, whether it\u2019s your mum\u2014so the mother of the mother. So the grandmother on the mum\u2019s side comes in to help you with caring for your daughter, or even your mother-in-law comes in and helps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EIn modern day times now in China, there are actually special institutions that are set up so that it\u2019s almost like a hotel. I don\u2019t know if this analogy is right, but it\u2019s almost like a retirement village, where you go in. There\u2019s medical care, there are nurses to help with teaching, and then there are coaches as well to help you take care of the child. Obviously, all of the needs of the children are taken care of, and there are those special, nutritious, professionally designed meals for the mothers. Actually, it\u2019s quite a luxurious stay. At other times, we invite what we call \u201Cpui yuet\u201D, which is directly translated as \u201Cmonk nannies\u201D. These are confinement nannies, who come and live in our homes to help those young mothers with their first 30 days after giving birth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ESo I do think that young mothers in the Asian communities are looked after really, really well, and often it\u2019s the reason why people attribute\u2014not that there\u2019s any scientific evidence, but it\u2019s the reason why people attribute it and say that Asians don\u2019t age as fast. We think sometimes that it\u2019s because we look after our mothers really well in the first 30 days. That\u2019s when all your body\u2019s hormones are readjusting, and often if you have long-term ailments, it\u2019s because you haven\u2019t done your confinement properly. That\u2019s what we believe in our culture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI say all of that to, basically, come back to the point that I think it\u2019s extremely important to give our birthing parents\u2014our mothers\u2014the time they need. Especially for me, it\u2019s those 30 days, which might be in jeopardy because of this bill. There is no actual minimal guarantee for the person who gives birth to actually spend that time at home. My good colleague here\u2014Dan Rosewarne\u2014has just talked about coercion, and maybe it\u2019s within the family, or it could be from society as well. If you\u2019re the higher-earning parent, maybe you could be coerced into going back to work as well, as we know well in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI think about my own future prospects, and I think about my own career here, as well. For these moments, I want to make sure that a bill we bring to this House is one that is not half-baked but it is one that actually has had all of the scenarios thought through and that there are actually safeguards within the bill to make sure that the birthing parent has that physical time to get better so that all of the parts are back in line again\u2014not that I heard it ever does\u2014and it should be when we\u2019re sure that they\u2019re ready to take on the world and that they have some time\u2014as we\u2019ve talked about it here, over and over again\u2014to have that breastfeeding establishment period as well. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve raised the parental leave period entitlement to 26 weeks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ESo it is a bit of science and it\u2019s a bit of, I think, sage-old experience from the ages as well, but we\u2019re making sure that when we come to this bill, it\u2019s one that really looks after the birthing parent. Like my good colleague Emily Henderson has said, it\u2019s an and/and, not an and/or. I really want to make sure that this bill is one that is well-thought-out, and that\u2019s why I cannot support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002207489940c5764c8889d2a351ff7ee2b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207489940c5764c8889d2a351ff7ee2b7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Nicola Willis\u2014five minutes in reply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d34ea909a26a49009a288b91c0bb1f4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d34ea909a26a49009a288b91c0bb1f4f\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E What a shameful day. Members opposite should hang their heads in shame. In deciding to vote down this bill, they have insulted every parent in New Zealand because they believe they are better placed to tell parents what to do with their parenting and caregiving arrangements. They have insulted them by voting against parents\u2019 opportunity to have more choices about how they arrange their affairs to best deliver for their own families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI did not think that in 2023 I would hear a Labour MP tell me that they knew what was best for the birthing parent. That was the phrase that was used by Naisi Chen just now\u2014\u201CThis is about what\u2019s best for the birthing parent.\u201D Well, I\u2019ll tell you what. I\u2019ve been a birthing parent, I have birthed four children, and I find it insulting for members opposite to imply that women do not know what care arrangements best suit their family. For Labour to say it is wrong for men, for fathers, for lesbian partners to say, \u201CWell, actually, we think it\u2019s best in our family that we take paid parental leave at the same time.\u201D, I find that insulting. This is 2023, and members opposite would do well to reflect on what the role of the Government is. Is it to insert itself into the arrangements of families and tell parents who should be at home and who shouldn\u2019t and how much time they should spend breastfeeding? Well, actually, I prefer to leave it to mums and dads and caregivers to work that out for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s think about what this bill actually would have done. I want you to think about the mother who sustained a birthing injury, who\u2019s suffering from terrible post-natal depression, and who has no family support, and her partner says, \u201CYou know what? I\u2019m going to stay at home with you for these first few difficult, challenging weeks so I can support you, and we will take our paid leave at the same time so we can keep this family together. I can look after you and our baby, and we can do what is best for our family.\u201D What the Labour MPs opposite say to that family in that circumstance is, \u201CNo. You\u2019re not allowed. We know better. There shouldn\u2019t be paid parental leave for both of you at the same time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI am shocked, because one of the things I think is important in this House is that we do not seek as individuals to impose our particular personal experiences upon others. I am really conscious of that, because here I am as a mother of four\u2014and, boy oh boy, was I lucky that I had a supportive partner, and I had the ability to stay at home on paid leave. I know many members opposite had the same thing. But there but for the grace of God go I, because I can imagine circumstances\u2014and women have written to me about their circumstances in which things didn\u2019t go that well\u2014\u201CI really needed my partner at home taking paid leave at the same time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIt shouldn\u2019t be beyond the Labour members opposite to have that empathy and that imagination too. What they have done today is take a no-brainer of a bill, a bill with no cost to the taxpayer, a bill that does no harm to anyone but simply enhances flexibility and enhances choices, and they have said, \u201CNo, no. We\u2019ll put our own patronising political views first, and we will deny it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI think that what\u2019s really going on here is that Labour has cast aside their values as they become desperate about the upcoming election. What they really wanted to do today was deny National a win. The sad thing is it\u2019s not about National; they\u2019re denying parents a win. I would implore the members opposite to think again, because, actually, we\u2019re here in this House not for our own selves but for the people whose lives we can have an impact on. With this churlish decision to vote against a pragmatic, modernising, cost-free bill, the members opposite have shown they\u2019ve left their values at the door and they\u2019ve put petty politics first, and I tell them that New Zealand parents will ensure they pay the price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a5bb10e24479453aa065aa233b872594\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te\u00A0Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000336\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002299bbc3aa35c943f490f035e31af22dc7\u0022\u003ECrimes (Theft by Employer) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f219194e51f46e795f29920cd35c21e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u00220d0dbbf4f18d43a7a63dd59b2423b801\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d0dbbf4f18d43a7a63dd59b2423b801\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Crimes (Theft by Employer) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Education and Workforce Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI hear a lot of speeches in this House about crimes. This bill is a tough-on-crime bill. When employees steal from their employers, they face serious consequences, including possible imprisonment, but when the employers deliberately steal money from their workers, they can get away with it. The most the victim may get is the money owing, but usually that doesn\u2019t happen, because the victims are normally migrant workers who do not have the resources or the knowledge to pursue action against the thieving employers. Employer theft is an intentional failure to pay any kind of wages owed to their employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill inserts new section 220AA into the Crimes Act 1961, which provides that an employer\u2019s intentional failure to pay an employee any money owed in relation to their employment is theft. If an employer is an individual, the maximum penalty is either one year of imprisonment, a fine of $5,000, or both. In any other case, the maximum penalty is $30,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill arises out of my own experience and the experience of many workers like me in New Zealand. I came here as a refugee, and I was told that New Zealand was a paradise, compared to the country from which I originated, and a place where the rule of law will apply to everyone and where it\u2019s there to protect the most vulnerable. I soon found out that was not always the case. Not long after arriving in New Zealand, I got my first work in the Wairarapa. It was farm work, with my employer shuttling me from Lower Hutt to Martinborough each day for work. At the end of my first week of work, I was told by a contractor that I had done a poor job that was not worth the cost of shuttling me to and from work, and that I did not deserve any pay. I was told that if I had any decency, I should be paying back the employer his costs for the week as the work that I\u2019d done had amounted to nothing. I was told that I would not be paid and that if I did not like it, then I should piss off. Not knowing what my rights were, I just walked away from my payment for my week\u2019s work, but as I became involved more with migrant workers, I found out that my experience was not the exception. I found out that the problem of intentional theft by employers is rife in the low-paid casual sectors that rely on migrant labour. It is common for these workers to have the hours they work under-reported, leading to lower pay, or for the employers to argue down the work the employee has done. It is already against the law in almost all circumstances to withhold pay or deliberately underpay staff, but the law is regularly flouted, and there are no criminal sanctions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EWithout this bill, the sanctions for wage theft in this country are very light. All you can get is backpay and a small fine. In Norway, for example, they criminalised wage theft last year. Thieving employers there can get a significant fine or a prison sentence from two years to six years. In the Australian state of Victoria, the maximum prison sentence is as high as 10 years, and a fine is $222,904 for an individual or over $1,000,000 for companies. Some businesses rely deliberately and regularly on underpaying their employees, and they have baked it into their business model. Serious criminal sanctions will stop this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThe problem I experienced is also identified by an official report in 2019 on the exploitation of temporary migrant workers in New Zealand, commissioned by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, which found that wage theft was one of the most common forms of migrant labour exploitation in New Zealand. A few cases of wage theft have gone to the Employment Relations Authority, but these are the tip of the iceberg. Let me mention a couple of examples. In November\u00A02018, Jagran Property Services, which operates both Crewcare Commercial Cleaning and the Green Acres Mobile Care Valet, were ordered by the authority to pay $37,000 for underpaying six members of staff. They were found to have underpaid six migrant workers by more than $17,000. They also failed to pay minimum wage and holiday pay and had demanded a premium from one worker for his visa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EIn another example, in February 2019, a migrant worker was found to have worked for 985 hours for no pay in Canterbury at a bakery. In March 2019, at around the same time that these cases were occurring, three migrant workers were reported as being underpaid by a Bottle-O franchiser. One worker claimed to have worked 84 hours a week but to have only been paid for 32 hours, which is equivalent to $7 per hour. There was no criminal sanction for any of these employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EIn November 2019, the New Zealand Herald reported on a Waikato cafe owner who allegedly stole wages from staff in August of that year. After the cafe suddenly closed down, the employer disappeared without notice. An employee, who asked not to be named out of concern it would affect her job prospects, said she was owed 32 hours of wages on top of unpaid holiday pay. Her boss had also deducted KiwiSaver and tax from her wages for the past two months, but these had not been paid out. \u201C \u2018She blocked us all on Facebook, on Instagram, blocked us from the shop Facebook page, changed her phone number, changed her email. She ghosted us all,\u2019 said the worker.\u201D In the aftermath, the employee sought legal advice and was shocked at how complex the process was. She believed that this was a significant deterrent for others who had been victims of wage theft. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses that. It simplifies the process significantly by making it a criminal offence, as it should be. It also means that those employers who steal from their employees face criminal penalties just like any other thief. That means employers are deterred from stealing wages rather than employees being deterred from claiming their rights. It also sends a strong message of disapproval to bad employers. This does not impose any new obligations on businesses. It only applies to those who intentionally do not pay their employees. Businesses are already required to provide back-pay after complex civil proceedings if they do not do this; the problem is too many bad employers rely on the complexity of the system to avoid enforcement. Those employers who commit wage theft are gaining commercial advantage over competitor employers by deliberately not observing the minimum legislated employment standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EDawn Duncan, a lecturer at the University of Otago\u2019s Faculty of Law, told the New Zealand Herald in November 2019 that wage theft was most common in New Zealand\u2019s hospitality industry. This was the same point made by the Employment Relations Authority in the 2018 decision in the case of Jagran Property Services: \u201CThese types of businesses not only exploit vulnerability. They also undermine legitimate businesses who are doing the right thing by their workers and start a \u2018race to the bottom\u2019.\u201D Just as has occurred in other jurisdictions around the world, it\u2019s time that we recognise the intentional theft of worker wages as a crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003ESince my bill was drawn from the ballot, I have received many messages and emails from workers who have been subject to wage theft. One of them told me of her experience. She\u2019s a young woman. She was young and living in poverty, and she did not have a strong understanding of her rights in the complex system. She was living pay cheque to pay cheque, doing physical labour for a small construction company. However, her health declined, and she asked her boss for time off with a medical certificate. When her condition got quite extreme, he told her she had to come back to work, and when she refused, he fired her. He never paid for the work that she had done before he fired her. He never compensated her for transport costs incurred during the work. She told me, \u201CI was living on the mattress on the floor of a living room in an old and tiny apartment shared with three other people. I could not afford to lose these wages.\u201D Trying to navigate a complex system, she went to mediation, and her employer just laughed and offered a $100 goodwill payment. He knew the system; she didn\u2019t. She could not afford the lawyer or the risk of having to pay for one if she took him to court. She felt abused and humiliated. Stories like hers are too many. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI would like to thank, at the end of this, the Council of Trade Unions for their support, Peter Cranney, John Ryall, and my good friend Camilla Belich for her support in this bill. This is a good bill. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00227a8c00cbbac142aeaaf557b143410428\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a8c00cbbac142aeaaf557b143410428\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank you for the opportunity to speak on this member\u2019s bill by Ibrahim Omer, on the Crimes (Theft by Employer) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ELook, this bill, as the introducer of this bill said, criminalises intentional failure to pay employees. That sounds like a very simple thing, and nobody would stand in the House and defend non-paying employers. So what is the issue? Well, the issue is that it is actually a reasonably complex area of employment law, and this one-page bill, which sort of just baldly states that anybody who intentionally fails to pay an employee goes off to face potential criminal charges. We in the National Party won\u2019t be supporting this bill as it is drafted, simply because, primarily, it\u2019s unnecessary in the sense that the Employment Relations Act has mechanisms in place, it has the duty to act in good faith, and there are penalties if employers do not act in good faith. Secondly, of course, any actual theft of money is already dealt with in criminal law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhat this bill, in essence, does is it can potentially turn disputes around employment practices\u2014when you say \u201Cintentionally failing to pay\u201D, it may relate to all matter of deductions from pay slips, for example, for a host of various things, then there could be a dispute about that. An employer may have intentionally deducted something from a pay and it may or may not have been justified. Now, that\u2019s all dealt with, currently, through the employment law. What this bill, effectively, does is shift that into criminal law, and we don\u2019t think that is a justified or a sensible thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe member talks about widespread and systematic practices of wage theft, but he offers no particular evidence to back that up. I certainly think there is widespread concern around worker exploitation in the immigration space, and that is a matter that does continue to need to be dealt with and policed effectively. If immigration laws need work in that space, well then that\u2019s something we should continue to look at, and I agree with that. But does that mean you change all the employment relations to deal with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIf it\u2019s in relation to modern slavery, again, that\u2019s something that Michael Wood promised was an urgent matter more than two years ago and promised to introduce legislation to deal with that. Instead, we have Carmel Sepuloni giving press releases, saying, \u201CWe are tough and we are going to do something about that eventually. We are going to work on some legislation and it might be ready in three years\u2019 time.\u201D So I would encourage Ibrahim Omer to encourage his colleagues to actually get on with doing something in that space rather than just talking about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, of course, if the worry is that the Employment Relations Act system that we have in place is not working, because it\u2019s too slow and too complicated, well, then I think there is a very good argument that the Employment Relations Authority is quite slow and cumbersome. Unfortunately that\u2019s a reality in all the courts across the land and should be, rightly, a focus of any Government to speed up access to justice and get on with it. It\u2019s sad that after six years, that hasn\u2019t been an area of focus for this Government and the justice sector and the employment relations sector. I\u2019d encourage Ibrahim to encourage his colleagues to get on with making that work better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen I noticed today, when a story was running on Newstalk ZB, that only 2.3 percent of retail thefts have led to an arrest. I suppose it\u2019s a bit ironic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c5cc9d9755b448e948f93dfe07d16f1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Goldsmith, you\u2019ve had a pretty good run. Let\u2019s get back to the bill, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229af48f8ec4ec4e97932ad17e437e29bb\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the purpose of the bill is to criminalise wage theft, and the only point I\u2019m making is\u2014right here, right now, this morning, we\u2019ve had a story saying that only 2.3\u00A0percent of retail thefts were actually leading to an arrest, down from 50 percent in the previous Government. So I think, before the members of this Government bring in new criminal offences, they might look at whether the current ones are actually being effectively enforced and dealt with. That might be something to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ELook, the only point I would make is, yes, nobody would defend people taking money from employees, and the current laws in relation to theft and in relation to the Employment Relations Act cover that extensively. What is being proposed here is to transfer disputes, potentially around deductions from payslips and not paying, from the employment relations space into the criminal space, and we think that would have all manner of unintended consequences. It may well be that the proposer of this bill has thought through all those ramifications, but there is certainly no evidence of that from the one-paragraph introduction to the piece of legislation that we have before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENo doubt, the Government with its numbers will pass this bill at stage one, it\u2019ll head off to select committee, and we\u2019ll be very interested to see and get some details from the people who are engaged in the sector, and from officials, to run through the consequences of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EMy only point is that, on the basis of what we have in front of us, we cannot agree to it at this stage. Mr Speaker, thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022801542dd31da4ecbbb15a5de8347d4d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022801542dd31da4ecbbb15a5de8347d4d3\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s my pleasure to rise in support of the Crimes (Theft by Employer) Amendment Bill. I just want to take a moment to congratulate the member who brought this bill before the house, Ibrahim Omer. Ibrahim\u2019s story about how he came to New Zealand and entered the workforce, and the challenges that he faced, is just a fine example of why we need people like him in this House, advocating on behalf of the community. Even before he entered Parliament, Ibrahim was working as a union organiser, raising awareness on this issue, and fighting for the rights of exploited workers. I want to thank him for continuing this work here in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis bill will send a strong signal that wage theft is a crime that will need to be taken seriously. As it stands now, it is often quite hard for workers to go after employers withholding wages. This process can be costly, complex, and time-consuming, and it\u2019s often hard for migrants with limited resources to navigate the current system. The bill also addresses a double standard: when employees steal from their employers, they receive a criminal conviction; wage theft is usually treated as a civil matter. This bill proposes an amendment to the Crimes Act 1961 and introduces a new section that defines \u201Cwage theft\u201D as theft by an employer. The amendment aims to ensure that employers pay their employees the wages owed, as agreed upon in the employment relationship. This bill clearly defines the withholding of wages as theft. Deliberately withholding wages or monetary entitlements will be considered theft and punished by a term of imprisonment or substantial fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis is an important first step when we know that sanctions against wage theft in New Zealand are relatively light compared to other countries. In Queensland, for example, wage theft has a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison, and the fines can reach in the amounts of hundreds of thousands of dollars. By clarifying the definition of wage theft, this bill will simplify the process for the victims and make it easier for workers to get what they are owed for their labour and their hard work. It\u2019s time to hold everyone to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis bill is important because the crime it punishes is one where the victims are often vulnerable members of society that can have a hard time fighting for their rights. This kind of practice is common in sectors employing low-paid immigrant labour, and Ibrahim\u2019s experience shows how common this is for migrants here in New Zealand. They arrive here, and they have no support system and only limited knowledge of their rights and legal protections. It\u2019s very easy for a small number of businesses out there\u2014or owners out there\u2014to exploit that vulnerable workforce. We should not accept that situation as normal, and we should strive to guarantee the dignity of all workers here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis bill will deter those behaviours, and it will make it clear to employers that these practices are unacceptable and will be punished. It will also make it easier for the exploited worker to report those practices with confidence, and it will be taken seriously and punished in accordance with the new Act. When we make sure that everyone receives fair payment for their work and that all workers are protected from exploitation, we will have a better workforce, a workforce that is better represented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ENow, National often claims to be tough on crime. Well, and this is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b84ef56c75f94babaf14792f9c035d12\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Not all crime!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225d8c157604f4993a47b7aca20842c77\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right, Mr Webb. But the only reason I can explain why National will not support this bill is that they somehow consider white-collar crime to be less serious. Stealing and withholding pay\u2014that\u2019s a crime in the same way that a thief\u2019s stealing from a home is a crime. The only difference is that sometimes the ones committing this crime in the first case are wearing suits. This bill fits with what the Government has done to protect workers: we have established the fair pay agreement system, we\u2019ve expanded workers\u2019 protection, and we\u2019ve raised the minimum wage. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002271794f89d9b04eef801acfbe5e8152c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271794f89d9b04eef801acfbe5e8152c0\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT Party won\u2019t be supporting this bill, but I do want to acknowledge the concerns that the member has raised by bringing the Crimes (Theft by Employer) Amendment Bill to the House. The crime of theft, in terms of the Crimes Act, means theft or stealing \u201Cdishonestly and without claim of right, taking any property with intent to deprive any owner permanently of that property or of any interest in that property\u201D. For those listening at home, I think that\u2019s a point which maybe has been missed so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EEmployees have a number of ways that they can seek redress if their employer has not paid them their due. For example, there are a number of Acts. The Holidays Act: there have been a number of Government departments, local councils, Government agencies which haven\u2019t been able to fulfil their obligations to employees under the Holidays Act requirements. It\u2019s taken years and years and years to sort out back-pay for those employees. Potentially, those employees, under this proposed legislation, would have a claim of theft if it goes on for long enough. Well, this Government has allowed unpaid holiday pay to be withheld from nurses, for example, for years and years and years. Potentially, the liability comes to billions of dollars. Would this bill allow the nurses to bring a claim of theft by an employer against a Government department?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThere are the Wages Protection Act 1983 and the Minimum Wage Act 1983. They all provide protections for workers who have not been paid in accordance with their employment contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a82a4e80002a4119875e95e607ab4e8c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no\u2014that\u2019s a wage deduction Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277193928ff004198aed3122498f12d79\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Now, there are many, many opportunities for employees to receive benefits from their employers that may or may not be subject to a wage deduction agreement, Dr Webb, but are often extended to help out employees when they\u2019re starting a new job, for example, or when they are faced with a choice of paying a bill or putting tyres on the car, for example. Sometimes, employers will help out their staff. I\u2019m aware of employers who have paid household bills for their staff because their staff are suffering under the cost of living crisis, which has been exacerbated by this Government\u2019s crazy and wasteful spending that has forced up interest rates and the cost of everything, with inflation over 7 percent at one point\u2014now 6 percent. Employers extend all kinds of loans and allowances to employees, which may not be covered. If the employer needs to recover that loan or that allowance, whether it\u2019s for boots and overalls for a new worker starting out in construction; whether it\u2019s for a set of tyres so a worker can get a warrant of fitness so they can get to work; or whether it\u2019s a food tab or a bar tab, like many of the employees who work in Parliament have at our cafe, Coppers\u2014now, there may well be an opportunity for an employee to get a benefit from an employer and then for that employer to need to make a deduction, and if it\u2019s not documented, then, potentially, that employer is exposed to charges of theft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat ACT believes is that business owners should be trusted to treat their employees well. Employees are extremely valuable. Anyone who\u2019s ever had to hire someone in the past few years knows how difficult it is to get good staff, how important it is to treat them well, and how important it is to pay them on time. If you don\u2019t treat them well and you don\u2019t pay them on time, then they can leave and go somewhere else and take their labour with them. It\u2019s much harder to do business if you don\u2019t have workers. The ACT Party trusts employers to get this right. If they don\u2019t get it right, there are already mechanisms for employees to take action and recover their wages. ACT won\u2019t support this any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a741f39cd4024802b27d13a89e3161c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a741f39cd4024802b27d13a89e3161c7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is interrupted. The House stands adjourned until 2\u00A0p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.59 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023080172f0b655308c475fb9a06388c444757d000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"