"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022318e0798a55944d191ee30570a55bf1d\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 2 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf3671b49a93457d97aa727ad52d9a26\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 2 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3a078147acd46b9b3439acd720e56c5\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4b7befe8c274792815e6e8706734e03\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00227c32aa2ce0624c4c8489d8ca56e1b32c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c32aa2ce0624c4c8489d8ca56e1b32c\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c91627bcdc5e4987ac4930a4507aca8f\u0022\u003EPetitions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd04680ab38547249afdc7ef89763008\u0022\u003EPetitions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000009\u0022\u003E, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c843d4568b1b439ca835e410c54a36db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c843d4568b1b439ca835e410c54a36db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00226848f132285241728166b52e90826581\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226848f132285241728166b52e90826581\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Trevarr McCarthy requesting that the House allow parents with shared care the same entitlements under the Social Security Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00227631ed0d32244dbfaca1b1f153bed2ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227631ed0d32244dbfaca1b1f153bed2ba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8086307513d433d8ce1b8dde7a15559\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8086307513d433d8ce1b8dde7a15559\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the royal commission of inquiry into abuse in care Stolen Lives, Marked Souls, July 2023 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-24 statement of performance expectations for the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002209d4b961d11c42f7aebe4c200712cf15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209d4b961d11c42f7aebe4c200712cf15\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00223c335ddfaa7f4a12b6ffd8d99fc6f821\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c335ddfaa7f4a12b6ffd8d99fc6f821\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Environment Committee on the: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of David Famularo\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Erica Rowlands\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Hannah Blumhardt\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, Long-Term Insights Briefing 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224970227db6c1497abe8445935f60692c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224970227db6c1497abe8445935f60692c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The briefing is set down for consideration. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221872c0ff8d4f40dc8e82b077a349afd6\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb4cab3031fa44898c065c78e0bbacac\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f15ee0d69c44dc6b833c72e05fc8b6f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022b801e9b302484691946809b152ad1dc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b801e9b302484691946809b152ad1dc3\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00221d189aa03c4240d19ff3424b581a2356\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d189aa03c4240d19ff3424b581a2356\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the actions by this Government, which have led to record numbers of New Zealanders in work. Statistics New Zealand data out today confirmed that the economy has added 113,000 jobs in the June year. But that, of course, is not all; data released today also confirms that wages continue to outpace inflation, with average hourly wages rising by 6.9 percent to $39.53. We know that there are many Kiwis who are doing it tough out there, but the Government is continuing to work hard to lower costs, ensure that Kiwis stay in work, and that they get better paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221384ebe74a1048c2983ae8d8a5491ba1\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was Grant Robertson right when he said in May that \u201Cwe will return to surplus in 2025/26\u201D, or will the pre-election fiscal update show bigger deficits and more debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022023347f8677649a2ac72d1ab265e52c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first of the question: at the time the statement was made, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271f64413ff3e43a698ea24a2f723b44b\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received any advice from the finance Minister or any officials suggesting the return to surplus will be delayed again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022434f170d7ea04140abae6e6634b89632\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, the PREFU numbers\u2014the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update\u2014are put together by the Treasury, independently of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022476320497cfa4b7493ba660e8ef888e2\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: So are you saying that you\u2019ve received no advice from officials or from the Minister of Finance on whether the return to surplus will be delayed again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d1792ceb3b48c898fe3d4673714142\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It will be with your spending plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022970b4f4c26bf4579b80c3acc97421a3a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly would be if the member was the Prime Minister and was spending the huge amounts of money that the National Party have been promising to spend up and down the country, with no idea how they\u2019re going to pay for it. But, of course, I have regular conversations with the Minister of Finance about the state of the Government\u2019s finances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b522e947c19847a7ac5d7c6742192b25\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the return to surplus been delayed twice in two years, and are more delays, debt, and deficits on the cards when he opens the books next month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9da230ae5449fba413cf234f757ef2\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps look around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d80cbe8056d84a22acabca651d65a091\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d encourage the member to look around the world at the deteriorating financial position around the globe. I also might like to remind the member that our track record of producing surpluses is a significantly better one than the last National Government, where Bill English, year after year, promised that he was going to turn a surplus, and it took him a lot longer to do that than what he\u2019d promised New Zealanders he would actually do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e364c325756842e39c12134d135134c7\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he constantly blame global factors for his failure on the economy, when New Zealand is in a recession and set to borrow $20 billion this year but Australia is growing and running a big surplus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed4f6cf240434661b62a633e23137bb9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The reason that New Zealand is in a technical recession\u2014if the member wants to read the statistics\u2014is because of a natural weather event called a cyclone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292ee4956e5f049cfb7a6edf1b7aa5613\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that that natural weather event happened long after the country went into recession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af80ba8512c44faebd06cd4f5c449da2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member is simply economically illiterate if he\u2019s going to make that claim. I\u2019d be interested to know which quarters he is talking about, because the most recent quarterly statistics show that, actually, it was the cyclone that was the difference between New Zealand having negative GDP growth or positive GDP growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae5809f57bf94622adf5f88ed7cbf48c\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t Australia\u2019s surplus show that countries in our part of the world can face a pandemic and global challenges but still come out the other side when they properly manage the economy instead of running it into recession like he has?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6856fa178a24d719eb245bbe1432c00\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No; it shows that they\u2019re different economies, that the nature of their economies is different, and that New Zealand does not have the minerals part of its export market that Australia does, where they\u2019ve been doing very well recently. We\u2019re different economies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751c33e703714c9eb5f3b43f06d7b2f3\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm his Government will spend more this year making interest payments on debt than on primary schools or on the Police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e33009602fe1420483b15859485610a0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course debt repayments have gone up as, globally, the cost of servicing debt has gone up. Interestingly, then, I\u2019d be interested to know how the member\u2019s going to pay for his nearly $10 billion worth of debt for roads, given that he doesn\u2019t seem to have made any allocation for paying back the debt. He thinks that somehow the private equity markets are just going to give New Zealanders $10 billion in funding to build roads and not want any return from that investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b4b91408b884f48b37027134b37bd60\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Workplace Relations and Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u00224da65776d37e40b7a0261f44eb5ef504\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224da65776d37e40b7a0261f44eb5ef504\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: What announcements has she made about addressing modern slavery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00225280bc1667174d2f9fb22d42c5a75081\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225280bc1667174d2f9fb22d42c5a75081\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E On Friday, I announced that the Government has worked alongside business to deliver on our commitment to address modern slavery. We will introduce new legislation that requires organisations and businesses to be transparent about their operations and supply chains through a new public register. This new disclosure system will be among the strongest in the world at tackling modern slavery. This is not only about making sure people are treated fairly; it\u2019s also about doing good business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b7fd858eae4af598ae21d2f2858aca\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: How big of an issue is modern slavery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022011ed3578cf74b66a52ba6bc5ea603d3\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Since the pandemic we\u2019ve seen modern slavery bloom globally. The International Labour Organization and Walk Free now estimate that 50\u00A0million people are in modern slavery on any given day. World Vision estimates Kiwi households are inadvertently paying an average of $34 each week to industries whose products are implicated in modern slavery. While we rank 12th lowest out of 160 countries for prevalence of modern slavery domestically, we know there is real risk that Kiwi businesses and organisations must address in their supply chains and operations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205aab0d0eea448728efc912c860833a3\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: Who was involved in designing this disclosure system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c01f552108a24e7e9529612cd385c4a7\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The Government convened a Modern Slavery Leadership Advisory Group chaired by former Air New Zealand CEO Rob Fyfe, who bought industry knowledge and expertise to help inform what steps we could take to address modern slavery. In 2021, the Government received an open letter signed by over 100 businesses and a petition signed by 37,000 people calling for this modern slavery legislation. The public consultation also received over 5,000 submissions, and an overwhelming 95 percent of submitters supported the proposed disclosure responsibilities. We have heard the calls for modern slavery legislation loud and clear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ad21e594284f48baf5171135a069e8\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Heard the calls after 6 years\u2014you\u2019ve heard the calls!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd70eabe7c8c4218aa4a3104b4ee838c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014from those that this legislation directly affects, and the other side of the House who are interjecting, they didn\u2019t do it during their nine years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253bbcb10aeab4a51822f4cfebc98523e\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this important for our trading relationship?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022453f8db088a447c39c39b8d1c198e8b6\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: We have commitments in our free-trade agreements with the United Kingdom and the European Union to take steps to prevent modern slavery in our supply chains and promote responsible business conduct. A lack of action would be detrimental to our trading relationship. It\u2019s important we continue to bolster New Zealand\u2019s transparent and ethical reputation within our export markets, and on the global stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229592bdfeef65442e83ac6289250c4641\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8c12155aecd459b99003aac2e96e9d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8c12155aecd459b99003aac2e96e9d7\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Can she confirm that the Ministry of Health allocated funding to the National Hauora Coalition in 2019 which is being used to offer the incentive of two $50 Prezzy Cards to expectant or new mothers for attending a pregnancy assessment and a 6-week assessment, and can she confirm that eligibility for the payment is determined by whether the expectant mother identified as M\u0101ori when they enrolled at their practice? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00229ff919b0a49f4dbc9380f4c03d9fe5a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ff919b0a49f4dbc9380f4c03d9fe5a3\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the Manat\u016B Hauora allocated one-off funding to the National Hauora Coalition in 2019 to create and support Best Start K\u014Dwae. Best Start K\u014Dwae are pregnancy assessment tools that facilitate bestpractice assessments for all pregnant individuals and their babies throughout their pregnancy journey. It was designed to provide high-quality, standardised assessment to help improve the worst health outcomes such as the low lead maternity carer engagement and the low pertussis vaccination uptake by M\u0101ori hap\u016B m\u0101m\u0101 and their p\u0113p\u0113. As a small part of the initiative, there is an opt-in incentive of a $50 Prezzy Card to expectant new M\u0101ori mothers for attending a pregnancy assessment, and another $50 Prezzy Card when the baby attends a six-week assessment. In answer to the second part of the question, the eligibility for the payment is determined by whether the expectant mother and/or baby identify as M\u0101ori, to address the well-known and specific poorer perinatal and baby outcomes they experience. However, practitioners are able to use the tool with any pregnant person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227307eada08e848139b6332537945b59b\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Ministry of Health reassign a $3.4 million underspend from the community services card subsidy scheme\u2014a scheme which benefits the economically vulnerable\u2014to a scheme which exclusively benefits mothers from one ethnic group? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaff0dd567ee4a09acffd90902d3c5b6\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my primary answer, the Best Start K\u014Dwae is an assessment tool that is available for all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247e7ae57b88942de9de1a1be525eaec3\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that it is acceptable that two pregnant women who both have high heath needs and who are both facing financial hardship could be treated differently by being offered Prezzy Cards when it comes to receiving the incentive payment because of their ethnicity? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022425ae8b5c9ec4f4eafc7d9914d9ac706\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: I again refer to my primary answer, where the Best Start K\u014Dwae assessment tool is available to all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a878ba64695946518a87212e8fe29c90\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. My question is specifically about the payment incentive, not the Best Start K\u014Dwae. The Best Start K\u014Dwae programme is free pregnancy checks for all women, but the payment incentive part of that programme is exclusively for one ethnic group\u2014that\u2019s the part I\u2019m referring to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e40b9aa5c652492a8fb468456d01ab0b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you speaking to that point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4bd8d8ce9ae4f5ba43a53a695e4d1f4\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022200a8f6ea811468eadfa00256b09d40e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Either way, the question has been addressed, in my opinion. The purpose of supplementaries is to use them to find out more information. You might want to use your further supplementaries to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c83562bf64284b4abf1126ee9f919520\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, does the Minister suggest this is open to all pregnant women when her responses to parliamentary written questions No. 21394 and No. 21391 suggest that the eligibility depends \u201Con whether the relevant individual identifies as M\u0101ori\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201495a16f36d43c7b96214a3da06df24\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: To answer the member\u2019s question, I stand by the answers that I\u2019ve given previously. In terms of Best Start K\u014Dwae, the practitioners and practices who have implemented Best Start K\u014Dwae\u2014which is available to all\u2014receive after each assessment a $100 payment as part of the Best Start pregnancy assessment, and a $50 payment per the Best Start baby assessment. That is available to all. Over $2.5\u00A0million of the $3.5 million referred to earlier was to set up the programme to be available for all. Incentive payments are paid to those practices which are implementing the tool, which is available to all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbaa3bb3dc354fcb8f6f49350d5caead\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the national hauora M\u0101ori coalition serves all communities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222042971c4c9c44f0a544c3b6168a153e\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: I can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225aac2a2086ca4f24bde12a77a4fe37ac\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6db77e868e641008d430e0bd06f003d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6db77e868e641008d430e0bd06f003d\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Kia orana. What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4a3a215af18450ca238797f280c9c2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4a3a215af18450ca238797f280c9c2f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. The resilience of the labour market is continuing to support the economy. Statistics New Zealand reported today that an extra 28,000 people were employed in the June quarter and 113,000 more for the year. There is now a record high 2.927 million people in work. The average hourly wage rose 6.9 percent to $39.53, compared with inflation at 6 percent. Unemployment did rise slightly, to 3.6 percent, due to a rise in the working-age population and people making themselves available for work. We know that many Kiwi families are doing it tough in the face of cost of living pressures, but they do so while in paid work and with wages keeping pace with inflation. This does help ease some of the pressure that they are under.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264d6765e271b4963aa47c177d50ddf87\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What else did the report say about the labour market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421bda26ac4845e09eb81f043f3847f7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Looking at some of the details, Statistics New Zealand reports that the participation rate rose to 72.4 percent and the employment rate to 69.8\u00A0percent\u2014record highs for both since the series began in 1986. The employment rate for women increased to 65.7 percent, the highest rate since the series began. The employment rate for men increased to 74.4 percent, the highest rate since 1987. Employment in tourism-related industries returned to pre-COVID levels, rising 11\u00A0percent annually to 275,300. Since 2017, the economy has added 322,000 jobs. Unemployment at 3.6\u00A0percent is low compared to where it\u2019s been in the recent past and below the 4.6 percent it stood at when we took office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022282325ded42043f19f35714610b66bc6\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What reactions has he seen to the labour market report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022972e23d7fc6b49c4b5bc0f43e129b514\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Westpac\u2019s economists said that the June quarter labour market figures pointed to very strong employment growth. ANZ\u2019s economists said that the strength in the jobs market suggested that demand for labour had remained resilient, while BNZ\u2019s economists said the strength in employment was further evidence that soaring labour supply, driven by migration, was taking pressure off businesses and helping them fill vacancies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022981a4627138d4bf888efa1041f17c087\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: How does New Zealand\u2019s labour market compare internationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022132afeedf5754f20aefa410447725f23\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: According to Statistics New Zealand, on comparable measures, New Zealand\u2019s 3.4 percent unemployment rate matches Australia and the US and is below the 4\u00A0percent in the UK and the 5.2 percent in Canada. The OECD average is 4.8 percent. In terms of employment rates, we rank third in the OECD. The labour market and the economy have been resilient, but there is a slowing global economy, which will affect our prospects. Last week, the IMF issued warnings about the downside risks around China\u2019s economy and the global outlook. The Government is doing its bit in response to this and taking pressure off by restraining spending. However, further hard choices may be required as we navigate a pathway through this deteriorating global environment. This is a tough time for many households, but the Government has stepped up to support them, and we will continue to invest in conditions to support people into work and drive higher wages for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022919156f184f444d5bef00a2301c4d9af\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00222d9a6bb200984f9e82649bba78714b57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d9a6bb200984f9e82649bba78714b57\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement yesterday that \u201Cthe Government has completed its tax work programme\u201D; if so, what potential new taxation measures were discussed in the seven tax reports the Government refused to release as part of the Budget 2023 proactive release?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb7e538f6ba7442688b0a40dd1192e1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb7e538f6ba7442688b0a40dd1192e1d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The Government is not working on anything new which has not already been clearly signalled. With regards to the seven reports, these relate to ongoing work on multinational taxation, which the member knows has long been part of the work programme. Due to the nature of the ongoing work and its potential implications on international relations and commercial sensitivity, it has been determined that it is not in the public interest to release further details on this for now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb0b2ec6ef14b23a98b3cf88eb24515\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government considered proposals to make New Zealand income earners pay more tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bafc3b8383404654a23063bbde27a7dc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, we\u2019ve had a significant amount of discussion about proposals that have been rejected. But I think what the member means is \u201Cin addition to that\u201D, and the answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e93fb051b7348d0a07d954469200a9c\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister considered proposals to make New Zealand income earners\u2014PAYE earners\u2014pay more tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e1e6f9a82240c5a63694b3f49a4e43\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve just answered that question. The answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022348b782b29244739931d89d9468fd305\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister done any work on increasing GST and what the implications of that might be to the New Zealand economy and people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bd1757b61da44d1bfa3e62ef6d47806\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. But, obviously, there have been some Governments in the past who said that they weren\u2019t going to increase GST and then they promptly did that. Obviously, that\u2019s not something that we are considering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b25d659b9244a9ab7e496edf462cdc\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister says that no he hasn\u2019t considered proposals to increase income tax, is he telling the House that he has not taken advice on proposals to increase the tax that higherincome earners pay, including by shifting thresholds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264903fb48e8d40b7964b4c35181d36bb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated to the member in the answer to the supplementary question before this one, the member is referring to things that are in the material that\u2019s been released to her\u2014we\u2019ve had that discussion previously. Beyond that, the answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225954e766a28247df98de7b52582a99f1\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister taken any official advice on the effects of removing GST from fruit and vegetables?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c6efff810264e95bc574d16112026ff\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ae78247b9404ebd8ff316de99363d6d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister taken advice from officials on measures to reduce taxation that would be funded by him restraining his own wasteful spending; or is it, in fact, the case that the only way he will ever consider any form of tax reduction is by forcing someone else to pay more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271de03c85a55496e8f538763544c20b3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows because it\u2019s been released publicly, anything to do with that has to be funded. What I would do, if I were the member, would be to concentrate on trying to find how she\u2019s going to pay for her promises rather than the Perry Mason routine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d4b15c82ffb45de9396df910d46760c\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Minister\u2019s position that every dollar appropriated in his Budget is going to its best purpose, there is no wasteful or inefficient spending, and New Zealanders don\u2019t deserve a tax cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022899cecab60e646c28dadf1d731a51f78\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: My position is that New Zealanders deserve quality public services. They deserve a Government that invests in health and education, they deserve a Government that builds State houses, and they deserve a Government that lifts children out of poverty. I suggest, again, to the member that her focus should be working out how she\u2019s going to pay for tax cuts, because otherwise it\u2019s cuts to every one of those public services that people will get from National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022896f9dd5625348d8871e0830652c85bc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00229f6501b2ef0640a4980a837651c5f5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f6501b2ef0640a4980a837651c5f5b2\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What recent announcements has she made regarding affordable housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002278e74ae7a7bb49f29de1120f730815e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278e74ae7a7bb49f29de1120f730815e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, I announced a number of key changes to the Progressive Home Ownership scheme, or the PHO. PHO helps people who would otherwise struggle to get a mortgage to buy their own homes and give their families security. Our landmark PHO scheme will now reach more potential first-home buyers by allowing existing homes to be bought through the scheme, increasing the income cap, and allowing intergenerational families to apply as a group. This means more homes to choose from in more locations and will help make homeownership a reality for more New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3adff3410d74c66be8dbbea30d2fd18\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made with the Progressive Home Ownership scheme so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238870de6f54c4d64bd71fd658f66220d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Since the PHO scheme was launched in 2020, hundreds of eligible families who would otherwise never have been able to buy their own home have now been able to do so, when they have been able to go and get a house built. So far, 978 homes have been contracted with the support of the PHO Fund, and 512 households have moved into their new homes. The changes I announced this week will assist as many people as possible into homeownership and ensure that the programme remains effective in the current economic environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc5b60b71b6f48f29851df87843460db\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Who will benefit most from the changes to the Progressive Home Ownership scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd372078c3d24ea1b53d0527d212b22a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve met people whose lives are transformed by the opportunities offered by Progressive Home Ownership. The changes will provide further help to more potential home buyers who fall outside of the banks\u2019 criteria for lending. The inclusion of existing homes in the scheme will provide better opportunities for those with larger or intergenerational households, and it will mean those living in areas where there aren\u2019t as many new builds being delivered, such as rural areas, can purchase homes through the PHO.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bbea5f7207a451db5fd87517c17066a\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What reaction has she seen from the sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022432293984dbf48ce9a43346ab52e326b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: From what I have seen, the reaction from the sector to the changes has been positive. For example, I heard Julie Scott, the executive officer of the Queenstown Lakes Community Housing Trust, say in an interview with Mike Hosking on Newstalk ZB\u2014hello, Mike; I know you\u2019re listening\u2014that she was a big fan of the fund and that she thinks these changes will make a positive difference to enabling it to be rolled out at a faster pace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764606161cfb443e9871fad0fa1857c4\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What recent announcements has she made regarding the Affordable Housing Fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273d3149e6efc4374bb0f915a43cf9879\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: On Sunday, I also announced that more affordable rentals are being built with Government support from the Affordable Housing Fund. The Government is enabling 92 affordable rentals around the country through six new partnerships through the fund. These projects are at various stages of development and will be delivered between July 2023 and June 2027 in Auckland, Rotorua, Hastings, Wellington, and Nelson, where there is significant rental stress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002219f269bc76a64f059e0aada6ea237e0a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00226d3c90a18ef04949b346effd7bf2a09b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d3c90a18ef04949b346effd7bf2a09b\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: How much money has been spent on consultants for Auckland light rail and Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving since 26\u00A0October 2017, and how much money has been spent on construction activities for these projects during this time frame?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221f7728908ec447aca14973ebb9ffe0c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f7728908ec447aca14973ebb9ffe0c3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Transport: I am advised that, between 2015-16 and 2022-23, $69.1 million has been spent on consultants on projects within Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving and $4.6 million has been spent on construction. Since 2017, the Government has spent $58.2 million on consultants for Auckland light rail, and, as the member knows, main construction works are yet to commence there. These consultants were engaged to undertake roles such as planning, engineering, consenting, and financing activities that typically occur before construction. In the absence of a ministry of works, which the member might well be contemplating, this work has to be done by consultants. For the member\u2019s benefit, how major transport programmes work, including mass rapid transit systems, is that before construction can occur, there needs to be investment in design, planning, and consenting, rather than just going ahead with reckons and wish lists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e161508f4448e5a27bdf342bf8e44f\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving has its priorities right when it has spent over $114 million so far and it\u2019s only been able to deliver a single set of traffic lights in Wellington?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275f50e1a639a493da0e0330840a6baf2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I think that the priorities of Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving\u2014to make sure that we actually can have good quality public transport across the city, that we can allow people to move across the city, and that we do other improvements for walking and cycling\u2014are good ones. Am I satisfied with the progress of Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving? No, I\u2019m not, and that is why we are moving to advance it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d341005da4704e53b31e91249828687c\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm reports\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b430c05099c7477eb6b34e919119a6f3\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe you should have spent a bit more on Transmission Gully!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295051b56eba1475a85b84f9a00468eef\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019d like to hear the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221625376e1679453e9eb6429c20432630\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Can he confirm reports that Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving has recently spent over $113,000 on relocating offices, and is it the case that they have failed to get Wellington moving, because they\u2019ve been too focused moving themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a76208ea7d84e7ea76731daf072befd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister: no, I can\u2019t confirm those reports. What I can, however, confirm is that Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving has not spent any money on consultants to be engaged as part of the Belt and Road Initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d738c3e97b1148aab3e682ac72b54332\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Who is correct: Michael Wood and Grant Robertson, who said in January 2022 that the Government had selected its preferred option of tunnelled light rail in Auckland\u2019s CBD to the airport, or the Prime Minister, who said yesterday morning that no decision had been made on the preferred option and route?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddf0241b9a9d4036a8adf5cfa770ada6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, the business case work goes on and the planning work goes on on Auckland light rail. If the member wants to make sure that Aucklanders are forever trapped in gridlock, yes, we could adopt the National Party\u2019s policy, but, no, we actually think that Auckland deserves a proper mass rapid transit system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b22e15ab974100a559e6eea222820c\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: How many more years will it take for Auckland to have a business case for Auckland light rail, and is it this Government\u2019s priority to get Auckland moving or to get Auckland consulting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e74ef8a86d4df692e796f3c0808794\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! On behalf of the Minister, our priority is to make sure that we address the enormous nine years of under-investment in Auckland\u2019s transport that we inherited. We\u2019ll continue our work on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227273efce5aff4010ab900317c8f4f94f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00221f4a7201300448b19b183254b8df7a5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f4a7201300448b19b183254b8df7a5d\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Do special needs grants for dental treatment adequately meet need for dental care, considering 40 percent of adult New Zealanders are unable to afford treatment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4fb0653c96c423098120467c7a0e0cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4fb0653c96c423098120467c7a0e0cc\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E This Government has shown that it is committed to ensuring New Zealanders have access to dental care when they need it. For the first time in 25 years, we increased the maximum special needs grants for dental treatment from $300 to $1,000 in Budget 2022. This has seen the number of non-recoverable dental grants nearly doubling from 23,025 to 43,479 and the total amount of support provided through the grant increasing nearly five-fold from $6,395,819 to $30,773,018. Previously, you could only receive one dental grant per year, even if it did not reach the $300 limit; now clients can access the grant multiple times in one year up to the value of $1,000. This is making a difference for wh\u0101nau, but we certainly know there is more to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022522d7cec729e46d4be27e662dea1afb9\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that access to preventative treatment, including check-ups, remains unaffordable given the average cost of a check-up is $80; if so, why are check-ups excluded from the dental grants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e0bcd0612b4285a4694c5be29a03a5\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I acknowledge that many New Zealanders struggle with the cost of dental care. I spoke about the increase in the grant that we\u2019ve put in place. I also just need to mention that, alongside that change, we\u2019ve lifted income limits for hardship support so that more New Zealanders can access grants, including dental grants. Before November 2021, the limits were, for example, $591.20 a week for a single person. We temporarily increased the limits to support New Zealanders through COVID-19, and then that was made permanent from Budget 2022. This now means that a single New Zealander can earn up to $900.93 a week and still access support, such as dental grants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212f6c56265cc40f691c65b1bbaf4dc90\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that not being able to cover the check-ups can lead to oral health issues going untreated, leading to more severe health issues and expensive medical interventions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201b15ce1741b44ab9739dccc94218338\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: We have made significant changes. I\u2019m not saying that there isn\u2019t more to do with regards to dental treatment and access in New Zealand. That can\u2019t all come down to the welfare system, though. I think the health system and perhaps even ACC need to take a little responsibility there, and there is some work that needs to be undertaken. We have made significant changes. There is a lot more covered than was previously\u2014including if someone goes to the Ministry of Social Development with a sore tooth, then they will at least get the consultation covered. That wasn\u2019t necessarily the case previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242f1c8fbf1c2407fa7d8720958dc1722\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How many people received dental grants out of the 1.5\u00A0million people in New Zealand who are unable to afford dental care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc4f68684d7e41b7838b0df1361c1e12\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t speak about all New Zealanders with regards to dental care, as I am not responsible for the dental care system. I\u2019m responsible for the grants that we provide for the lowest-income New Zealanders with regards to providing them with support and access to some level of dental treatment. And, as I said, it is significantly more than what it was when we came into Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ebb9e73283c416a8ca6debef26a1bd6\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What would she say to Max, who told us his dental story and said, \u201CI have been living with a tooth that needs a root canal for the last six years. I can\u2019t get it pulled out, because I\u2019ve been already having too many molars pulled out due to Work and Income declining grants. I\u2019m only 32, and I need root canals.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273469907a71f4aeaab2ceb7569c82e2f\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I empathise with anyone who is struggling to access the dental care that they need, including Max. We have made significant changes through the welfare system. I know that member doesn\u2019t believe that they go far enough, but they certainly are a significant start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e31188fabf5c401ea3722771825ce7b0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Biosecurity\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u00223df3a9b82a2f47eca4ea3a7715b3214f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223df3a9b82a2f47eca4ea3a7715b3214f\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Biosecurity: What recent announcements has he made regarding the work to eradicate Mycoplasma bovis from New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00223f3f2cc3f2804e7e820c8bf4ea8a2ae4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f3f2cc3f2804e7e820c8bf4ea8a2ae4\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I announced that the last known property infected with the cattle disease Mycoplasma bovis has been de-stocked, disinfected, and officially declared disease-free. This is a major milestone in the work towards eradication, and is the first time that we have had no infected properties and no properties under investigation since M. bovis was detected in New Zealand five years ago. I want to acknowledge the hard work and collaboration between the Government, the Ministry for Primary Industries, DairyNZ, and Beef \u002B Lamb New Zealand to bring us to this point, and also acknowledge the sacrifices made by affected farmers, their families, and their communities. It has been a huge effort but, as a result, our goal of a world-first eradication is that much closer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a7105e3c23240eca2fe929b7f35505e\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: What has been achieved since the Mycoplasma bovis eradication programme began in 2018?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baba92c4285a4929972fc86aa9d89dd4\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: In 2018, alongside our partners DairyNZ and Beef \u002B Lamb New Zealand, this Government made the bold decision to be the first in the world to eradicate Mycoplasma bovis. We made that decision to protect our national herd, our farming businesses, and our international reputation. In the five years since, we have completed more than 3.2 million tests for M.\u00A0bovis, used movement controls on almost 3,000 farms, culled approximately 184,000 cattle, and cleared 280 infected properties. This has been a massive operation; it has touched almost every farming community across the country\u2014but five years on, I have no doubt that the decisions to eradicate have been the right ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235cc9294d01d4667b386f1dc048fcc80\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps in the plan to eradicate Mycoplasma bovis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6497164e9fc41c79988ef8393bb153a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: While we might currently have no infected properties or active investigations, we still have some work ahead to reach our world-first eradication goal. It would not be unexpected to see a small number of cases pop up in the future, but all the indicators from our bulk milk testing and our beef herd surveillance show that our 10-year eradication plan is on track and moving in the right direction. The programme will now move to a national pest management plan with OSPRI taking the lead, but that doesn\u2019t mean that now is the time to relax. We\u2019re only as good as our surveillance and our on-farm records, and it\u2019s crucial that we all stay vigilant and keep M.\u00A0bovis off our farms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2c4191f315f4db2becc7fc14ef05b96\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: What does this progress mean for our farmers and our businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221131043ea7e34cccafffde5dadf60731\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: More good news: hitting this milestone shows that our plan is working, and that the hard work from farmers, industry partners, and the Government has made a difference, allowing M. bovis to become an endemic disease. It was estimated to come at the cost of $1.3 billion in lost production in the first 10 years alone. Our progress so far will protect Kiwi farmers and businesses from shouldering these losses throughout the future. It will also protect the health of our herd, our international reputation, and our record export growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223790bbdff7944837a35939d530a3abc7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022e67ac378174a4f38acbb5ca40ebc2002\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e67ac378174a4f38acbb5ca40ebc2002\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CIt is my view that New Zealanders feel safer\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022e815f673fa3d44cabe886d15e08c0fa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e815f673fa3d44cabe886d15e08c0fa1\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E As with the past 12 times, I stand by my full statement at the time it was given. It is my view that New Zealanders feel safer with a Government on track to deliver 1,800 extra police. I also support the comments recently made by deputy commissioner Jevon McSkimming via email for police to focus on prioritising front-line service delivery. Finally, I stand by this Government\u2019s decision to increase Vote Police funding by 50\u00A0percent, an increased constabulary by more than 1,800 since coming into Government. That stands in stark contrast to the last Government, who had an effective funding freeze for police and a reduction in the real number of our front-line staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a27fc6b4354f482185fea2dfc6207536\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Deputy Prime Minister, who said of crime in Auckland, \u201COh, I wouldn\u2019t say it\u2019s bad at all.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4a93b0f0cf24ae3a1c0ba3ec6d4c4e0\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: We know that we have an issue with crime, and I think that the complete quote of that member was taken out of context. What that member knows\u2014who frequently uses quotes out of context, as we well know, in this House\u2014is that this Government has a strong track record on delivering and, by doing that, is rolling out situations such as the tactical response model and also by making sure our front line are the best resourced that they ever have been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c1cdf7393ab4c4492eaa122c557752a\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Police Association president Chris Cahill\u2019s assessment that the front line is totally overwhelmed by the increase in crime under this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022912a40721c05427187384f677e0774a4\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I know firsthand, from speaking with front-line staff, that the two main demand pressures we see are the increase in family violence reports and also through mental health\u2014two areas which we take seriously and have work programmes in place to make sure front-line police get all the support they need, and also by adequately resourcing the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd80445d44884f189205aacf7171b862\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Well, after six years, why haven\u2019t you been able to deal with those issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff9cfc75496946028776ca1e86493822\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: We continue to resource our front line far better than we ever saw that Government do. And we know that what happened under National was that our front line were under-resourced, that those ratios dropped, and that over 30 community police stations across New Zealand were shut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e928bda19a14cdca6a79f42778068dd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9 to Minister\u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef6018c418e4461bb849b85ebbe74063\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef6018c418e4461bb849b85ebbe74063\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Look, thank you. Look, I just stand to correct an answer I\u2019ve just given in the House. I\u2019ve just realised\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271d2b3d054f84e488581e78cf0af1287\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re seeking leave to do that? Leave is sought for that. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241156db65dcc43398e927ac481367440\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Look, thank you. In the answer to my first question, I said that M.\u00A0bovis was detected in New Zealand five years ago. That\u2019s not correct: it was actually six years ago\u2014in 2017\u2014under the previous Government. Action began five years ago\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022294e41e1388c4994bf1b242448f31483\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022419879b17aae49d2bd8dedfd20e4e61e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002218f3d90f658e4255a91bf80407d2f7c0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002208fb48ecabbd408096fb936e8d851a21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208fb48ecabbd408096fb936e8d851a21\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing: What is the Government doing to ensure the rights of retirement village residents are protected and enhanced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00221e286028db234e13a26cec26713d164b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e286028db234e13a26cec26713d164b\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Associate Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Meitaki, Mr Speaker. We are committed to ensuring secure, safe, affordable housing for older New Zealanders. Since the Helen Clark Labour Government first introduced legal protections for residents 20 years ago, the retirement village sector has grown substantially. As the sector has grown, concerns about consumer protection have increased. Today, I\u2019ve released a discussion paper that seeks public views on a review of the legislative framework. There are improvements that can be made to better serve the housing needs of older New Zealanders. Our housing challenges have grown over the generations and we are determined to address them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fc9f1ff208a4331a84a41cd917ec16a\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What are the main objectives of the retirement villages review? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a9d542c0b7e446db6f8ebdfa58d41c6\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a big decision to move into a retirement village. It is essential that protections for residents and intending residents are strong and working as intended. The overarching objectives of the review are to ensure adequate consumer protections to residents and intending residents; an effective balance between the rights and responsibilities of residents and operators; the ongoing viability of the sector and its ability to provide a range of retirement housing options and consumer choice; and the rights and responsibilities of residents and operators are appropriately defined, including where they may differ for different occupancy rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db189275c42427aa70916d2e832add4\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Does the review respond to recent concerns raised by the Retirement Commission and Commerce Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a42866be5c74412c95f60adf4badfcb5\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I acknowledge the work by the Retirement Commission which has helped to pave the way for the review. It consulted on options for change in 2022. Submissions were sought on issues such as repayment times for capital sums, and weekly fees continuing after terminations. The Retirement Commission confirmed many issues remained unresolved and problematic. It recommended that a full review of the legislative framework be carried out. The Commerce Commission has also launched an investigation into complaints about unfair terms in occupation rights agreements. That investigation is being conducted independently and at arm\u2019s length; it is at an early stage. Its findings might feed into the review but do not impact the consultation phase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce5a4b4a284e450f80bd4a911eacb5cc\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Have the proposals in the discussion paper been tested with the sector? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f54b546e494209b28cf6538561ed68\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Officials developed the discussion paper working with the Retirement Commission, Government agencies, and the sector, including both village operators and residents. I acknowledge the important role the sector plays in catering for the needs of older New Zealanders. The current legal framework has supported the significant growth of the industry. The growth of the retirement villages sector should not be at the expense of fair and appropriate legal and consumer protection. I acknowledge that the Retirement Villages Association has driven positive changes in the sector to improve consumer protection. These changes are largely voluntary and only apply to their members. Some changes do not apply to villages with fewer than 50 units. I\u2019m looking forward to submissions from all stakeholders, including residents and village operators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1d873b0462f46008bc69a6d91d63a3a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a96dd3c685aa461ea6ea2da6a4b961c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a96dd3c685aa461ea6ea2da6a4b961c6\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does he stand by all his statements and actions regarding Oranga Tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0abf04342c0404880b21a194e46449a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0abf04342c0404880b21a194e46449a\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were given\u2014in particular, the move to transfer resources and decision making closer to iwi and communities. There have been nine prototypes and 10 partnerships established, which moves decision making closer to communities and their wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abd303a724824048ab1669f80de0ea2e\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement, in response to allegations of sexual abuse, that care and protection residences need to be shut down \u201Csooner than later\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022967768b08d8f4b1bb68da4f8fc30ee12\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267e5500f14dd45a996a7a4bcb2e5a398\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What specific progress, if any, has been made to shut down these facilities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6ab561d9c4d4b148b9df4db05910426\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s a bit of a process that needs to happen. For example, you can\u2019t just close down care and protection residences and put the kids just in the community when they need to be specialised designed homes. We expect them to be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d54aff87b18d460c981b3e3ea7eea02e\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Aren\u2019t you building two new ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220826985bf8294081928cbf38c6a4a6c2\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014smaller. No, we\u2019re not building more care and protection homes. That was a different announcement, Mr Goldsmith. But there has to be a planning process to be gone through, so it does take time. There has to be a transition into the new format.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f8919025d06488a88ee5857099199cf\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept the need for urgency in closing these facilities down, given that studies have shown that one-in-three children placed in residential care by the State ended up in prison later in life?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254278e9f3a7446d4a8a09252ed144123\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s a number of reasons why children may end up in prison later on in life, and it\u2019s often the home environment that they came from; it\u2019s not just what happens to them when they are in the care of the State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249ec189adfae453cb666dce6c3b5e4b6\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to the finding of the Waitangi Tribunal that the Crown removal of mokopuna M\u0101ori into State care is a profound and ongoing breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ffc4430b7f148bcbc6250b89a651e13\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I think is that the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s decision to disestablish one bureaucracy and build another bureaucracy isn\u2019t going to actually address the myriad of issues that need to be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b064d41b2d9469697673e848b4cffc5\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Then you\u2019ll love this question: will he support the establishment of an independent mokopuna M\u0101ori authority responsible for ensuring our mokopuna are cared for and remain in the wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e75c82d0c6964089b61bf357b6311d82\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: For the very reason I just said: that replacing one bureaucracy with another bureaucracy that will end up telling Ng\u0101puhi, Muriwhenua, and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu what to do with their tamariki is the wrong move. So replacing one bureaucracy with another is a backward step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f79b7a5a3e144058f4eba72c4e98212\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224beb05ca55f8445188a01a93d0522994\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5dc68fe2c364f83bcaddc1bb3c27074\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5dc68fe2c364f83bcaddc1bb3c27074\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into the morning of 3 August for the continued committee stage of the Spatial Planning Bill; the second readings of the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill, the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3), the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill, and the Sale and Supply of the Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ac7c5e39ce134626852aeb8b41baccfd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000184\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 73, Noes 44.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224fa86d019e3247139245f74d8356758d\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c5c191801494bbdbeb4f6a4ea7ed006\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022616633da82504001a94410e73a4c6bed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022616633da82504001a94410e73a4c6bed\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ECan I just say, pretty soon this Parliament is going to come to an end. But, more importantly, this Government is going to come to an end. I have to say that this place has already got a bit of the endofschool year feel about it, hasn\u2019t it? Because we\u2019ve got a Labour class on the other side and they lost their proper teacher a few months ago and they\u2019ve got a substitute teacher at the moment and the kids in the class are trying hard to make that teacher cry. They\u2019re trying to make them quit. They\u2019re doing everything they possibly can to get a new leader and a new teacher in place and the new substitute teacher is trying to put a brave face on it. He\u2019s trying really hard so the rest of the school doesn\u2019t see how hard it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EBut I want you to know we hear it because we can see it. We know that this Labour class is really struggling. And the substitute teacher managed to get rid of a few of the rowdy kids early. He got rid of Michael Wood and Kiri Allan and Stuart Nash, and they left the classroom and they were put in time out. And then some of you might remember he did a roll call, and he said \u201CMeka, are you here? Meka, are you here?\u201D, and, no, Meka had shot through. She wasn\u2019t coming back either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c893e46fa184f65919a5a63750cb9e0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand it\u2019s appropriate to refer to members by their full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e8bc39e0214f8a974c905e0ff4e1cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct and it\u2019s my role to call that out. While I\u2019m on my feet, there have been a number of things. I\u2019m going to put it down to we\u2019re so close to an election that members think anything goes. I think it\u2019s pretty bad form, though, Dr Webb, to interrupt someone in a general debate. In a general debate, we debate all kinds and all manner of things and that\u2019s what\u2019s going to happen. I will give, however, a general\u2014because it is becoming more prevalent where nicknames not full names and honorifics come in or go out, depending on which one it is. And so, in this case, seeing there was an interruption, I\u2019m going to give the member some extra time to make up for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d93221c041843b6a2b0a7182a11197c\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I really appreciate that, because there\u2019s so much I want to say. But, the problem is this. It\u2019s that the substitute teacher, Chris Hipkins, can\u2019t actually run the class and now he\u2019s making up the curriculum each and every day. And here\u2019s what happened. He actually took a group of his top students and he said to them, \u201CCan you work on some economics projects for me?\u201D And they were really enthusiastic about this school project, because the school project was something called a wealth tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ETwo of the smartest kids\u2014two of the smartest kids, Grant Robertson and David Parker\u2014they partnered up and they said, \u201CThis is our chance. We\u2019re going to work really hard. We\u2019re really excited about this school project.\u201D And they put extra time into it and they did everything. And one of them, diligent David\u2014diligent David\u2014he went off and he went beyond the recommended reading and he went off and he actually discovered a guy called Thomas Piketty. Now, he read all 696 pages of Thomas Piketty, and he came back and him and Grant were working very excitedly on the new project and it was exciting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EBut you know what happened? Chris Hipkins then thought about it, and he thought about them presenting the project to the whole school, and he said, \u201CNo, no, we\u2019ve got to stop that. We\u2019re not doing that any more.\u201D And so he pulled it out from his top team. That\u2019s exactly what happened. And so, diligent David Parker said, \u201CLook, I find it untenable. It\u2019s totally untenable. I cannot be the revenue monitor any more. But I\u2019m not so untenable that I won\u2019t stay on the school council.\u201D That\u2019s, basically, what he did. He said, \u201CI\u2019ll stay on.\u201D And I\u2019d say that a confident teacher would actually say, \u201CNow listen here, David, you can\u2019t disagree with me in front of the whole school.\u201D But David Parker gets to do whatever David Parker wants to do, because the substitute teacher has lost authority in the classroom, is what has happened there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EAnd then there was the finance Minister, Grant Robertson. He was the partner of David Parker. And he said in front of the school assembly he\u2019d been humiliated. And do you know why? Because someone stood up in the school assembly\u2014it was actually Nicola Willis\u2014and she announced Chris Hipkins\u2019 GST policy that Grant Robertson then opposes. And I guess poor Grant Robertson is getting used to this, because if you go back through the record, it\u2019s quite profound. He wanted that fuel subsidy to end, but, actually, Chris Hipkins said, \u201CNo, no, we\u2019re going to carry that on.\u201D He liked his wealth tax, his little project that he was doing with David Parker, and that got nixed at the last minute after being led on. And now it\u2019s the GST that\u2019s got knocked on the head as well. The question you\u2019ve got to ask yourselves is: how much more humiliation will Grant Robertson put up with, you know? He\u2019s already moved to the list. He\u2019s got one door sort of outside the classroom, one foot inside the classroom, and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to take much more for him to actually move on either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve got to say, Chris Hipkins is looking desperate. He\u2019s looking like he\u2019s out of control or he\u2019s not in control and he\u2019s making this curriculum now up on the fly. And the problem is that he said there\u2019d be a reset, but, actually, nothing ever follows from it afterwards. There\u2019s no alternatives that are put in place. And he\u2019s just chucking stuff out there each and every day and the kids aren\u2019t keeping up and there\u2019s no alternatives happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EHe actually doesn\u2019t know what he stands for. And if you think about it\u2014Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving. Now, he doesn\u2019t apparently want that as part of the curriculum any more, but the class don\u2019t know what they\u2019re supposed to be doing instead, as a result. He doesn\u2019t want Auckland light rail to be part of the curriculum any more. But the problem is they\u2019ve spent their whole time, all the years they\u2019ve had at school, working on Auckland light rail and they\u2019ve got nothing else to do, as a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve got to tell you, it\u2019s no wonder that that Labour class is incredibly restive, it\u2019s incredibly miserable, and all you can say to them is that, \u201CLook, the term is coming to an end; your term is coming to an end.\u201D And all I\u2019d say, on behalf of New Zealanders, is that it can\u2019t come sooner, because the sooner the better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI do want people to know that a National Government in a new school term is going to get things done. I\u2019m telling you, that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve actually been at work. We\u2019ve announced 30 different policies that are actually here to improve New Zealanders\u2019 lives, about actually common-sense, practical, pragmatic solutions to the things that they\u2019re wrestling with. And that\u2019s what will get New Zealand back on track, isn\u2019t it? And I\u2019m telling you now, a National Government\u2019s going to rebuild the economy, we\u2019re going to make sure we restore law and order, we\u2019re going to make sure we deliver better health and education, and we\u2019re going to make sure that this is a place that if you\u2019re prepared to work hard, you can get ahead and you can do well for yourself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I have to tell you: the substitute teacher has done his time. He knows it, his class knows it, and New Zealand knows it. They want a change. They want a National Government that will get New Zealand back on track and that\u2019s what they\u2019re going to get on 14 October. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002239dfd98bfa3c438798325ebd6818257a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239dfd98bfa3c438798325ebd6818257a\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. That was a very bland and uninspiring five minutes that we will never ever get back in our lives. But, Mr Speaker, I\u2019d like to thank you very much for giving the Leader of the Opposition an extra 30 seconds, because it gave New Zealanders an extra 30 seconds to realise why they don\u2019t like him\u2014because he is bland and uninspiring. But of that 30 seconds that he got, he was only able to use up 12 of those seconds, so his speech writers didn\u2019t actually factor in that he might actually get a little bit of time. Even then, he can\u2019t even deliver the pre-prepared speech with all that much panache. It was bland. It was uninspiring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EBut just before I get into the guts of my speech, I\u2019d just like to acknowledge what we heard in question nine with my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor, the Minister of Biosecurity, Agriculture, who has done an incredible job in getting New Zealand to the point where we have almost eliminated Mycoplasma bovis from the country. If we do achieve it that will be the first time anywhere in the world that something like that has been achieved. I just think that, even though it was question nine, we sort of glossed over it, it is a huge achievement from this Government. Just to think about how much that has saved the country because the effects of Mycoplasma bovis were devastating on us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis Government is just getting on with the bread and butter issues that matter to everyday Kiwis while, on the other side of the House, they spend time on their Twitter tirades. Now, I didn\u2019t actually see the Twitter tirade that emanated from the other side there today, but so many people were laughing about it that I actually had to ask exactly what went on. But there was a Twitter tirade\u2014while we\u2019re getting on building roads and houses and everything in between, well the National Party can\u2019t even tell you how their policies add up, and it\u2019s quite telling that that Twitter tirade was all about criticism of them and their fiscal black hole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ENow, the National Party have a history going back to Steven Joyce about fiscal black holes. Remember the $11 billion fiscal black hole that he accused us of having, and it wasn\u2019t the case. Then there\u2019s Paul Goldsmith with his \u201CBermuda Fiscal Triangle\u201D where they want to cut taxes, reduce debt, but carry on spending. It just doesn\u2019t add up. But, in July of 2017, we released a comprehensive fiscal plan ahead of the general election, and yet now it\u2019s August\u2014it\u2019s August and we hear nothing but crickets chirping from the other side. No fiscal costings. And yesterday, the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, they estimated a funding shortfall of between $3.3 and $5.2 billion in their plans, and that was the point of the Twitter tirade. Instead of justifying or showing how their figures add up, they didn\u2019t. All they could do is just try this Twitter tirade that demeaned the fact that Grant Robertson had a meeting in Copperfield\u2019s with somebody\u2014oh my God, hiding in plain sight! Oh, there\u2019s the start of the conspiracy theory if ever I saw one. The Minister of Finance had a meeting in Copperfield\u2019s, hiding in Copperfield\u2019s where no one would see them. Spooky, spooky. So that was the genesis of the Twitter tirade from the National Party. Nothing at all about saying, \u201CThis is how our plans add up, this is where the money\u2019s coming from.\u201D, but it\u2019s just a big rant about some sort of conspiracy that was dreamt up in the depths of Copperfield\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe know that for National to be able to do whatever they say they\u2019re going to do, there are going to have to be cuts to all the services that are really important to New Zealanders\u2014health cuts, education cuts, housing cuts. I just want to acknowledge my colleague here\u2014Megan Woods\u2014and the work that she\u2019s done in the housing field: 12,000 public homes with another 6,000 on the way to being completed, when we know that we entered Government and there was a deficit of public housing, and we wondered why there was a housing crisis in New Zealand. We have spent the last five years just fixing up the mess that we inherited, but now we\u2019ve built on it, and I\u2019d just like to acknowledge Megan Woods for the wonderful job she\u2019s doing making sure that New Zealanders are housed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e76d98731a054f8e8b59ba304b1db497\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e76d98731a054f8e8b59ba304b1db497\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E The New Zealand National Party: big on talk, low on action, low on delivery. And the thing I\u2019m very proud of is the thing that this Government has delivered over the last six years, not only across Aotearoa New Zealand but in my own backyard in the electorate of Northcote. And when I hear the Opposition leader\u2014a terrible speech\u2014talking about the New Zealand Labour Party, talking down New Zealand\u2019s economy, talking down average people in New Zealand, I want to acknowledge the work that our Government has done across our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s infrastructure deficit has been decades in the making. But being smarter about the way that we plan, the way that we deliver and use infrastructure is critical if we are close to closing the infrastructure deficit that this country has. Similarly, I want to acknowledge the housing crisis and the decades in the making to get to where we are today. Yesterday, I hosted the Deputy Prime Minister in the Northcote electorate to show her firsthand the work that this Government had delivered to Auckland\u2019s North Shore and had delivered in the Northcote housing development. I talk openly and share an invitation to personally host anyone from in this House in this particular development. We are on track to deliver 1,700 houses from 325 old, cold State houses because we are building public homes there. We\u2019re building homes for first-home buyers and homes on the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWe haven\u2019t only built homes in my area; we\u2019ve invested in the pipes in the ground\u2014$3.5 million has been invested by the Housing Acceleration Fund because what we saw was investment in good water infrastructure to support the growth on Auckland\u2019s North Shore. Across the way, we\u2019ve built Onepoto Primary School\u2014$19.5 million, the lowest-decile school in our electorate, 12 new classrooms. I showed the Deputy Prime Minister Northcote Intermediate, that we are about to open next month. It goes on, because as we build houses we must build communities too. It was only last month that I also took the Minister of Health over to North Shore Hospital\u2014150 new elective surgery beds that we are about to open in January. We talk about an infrastructure deficit in this country, but I tell you: over the last six years, this Government has delivered for Auckland\u2019s North Shore and the electorate of Northcote across the board, because that is what we know is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBut what we also know is that that takes investment. And I acknowledge the $77 billion investment over the next five years into New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure that this Government has put in place. We\u2019ve got to continue to grow that investment up to what the sector asked us\u2014$150 billion to get our country where we need to. I looked at National\u2019s transport plan that they announced this week: shocking, no investment in Auckland\u2019s North Shore. I\u2019ll say that again: no investment in Auckland\u2019s North Shore. No mention of an additional harbour crossing, because the reality is that this Government is getting on and doing the work that they didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBut the important part is that we recognise the opportunity of T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland, a global city\u2014a global city that we have to invest in, because our people count. We want our people to live in warm, dry homes. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve invested in public housing. That\u2019s why we have progressive home ownership for Aucklanders that want to purchase their own home. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve invested in every school in my electorate in their property so that they have warm, good learning environments to get to where they need. But most of all\u2014most of all\u2014is that every child in our education system counts, and we want every child to have the best opportunity to start their life to be educated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EFinally, yesterday my proud moment: I introduced our Deputy Prime Minister, Minister for Auckland, to a number of apprentices that are working on our housing development. That is the work that we are doing. That is the work that this Government is delivering for T\u0101maki-makau-rau, delivering for Aucklanders, and delivering for Northcote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u002200ae8c6b1912445096ca937b816bd20b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200ae8c6b1912445096ca937b816bd20b\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Housing is a human right. This Government believes every person deserves to live in a warm, dry, and affordable home. It is why we have undertaken the biggest systematic change in the last 40 years or more: building houses. It is why we overhauled the planning rules to encourage more density in our urban areas where people want to live and work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EWhen I first arrived in this country, I was given a K\u0101inga Ora house in Lower Hutt in P\u014Dmare, where people like me, who come from poor backgrounds, lived in peace and love. And guess what happened to those houses? Two, three years later, those houses were bulldozed by the National Government in 2011. They had sold them to the private developers, and now there are flash houses being built in those places\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc8cf55b1a294024abae06a839cd0d01\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Some of them are State houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232d2486ed37746dc9dee0d0fe437c7cf\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which is fine. But what happened to those families? What happened to those poor people, Mr Bishop? What happened to them? No one knows. They have been kicked out. God knows where they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we are investing billions in infrastructure like pipes and roads to enable new housing. It is why we equip local authorities with the ability to undertake long-term borrowing to ensure that they can develop the infrastructure they need to sustain and grow their communities and why we work with them to have coherent spatial planning. It is why we are investing in a land development to get a mix of public affordability in the market housing, because this is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EYesterday, for me, as someone who calls Wellington home, was a proud moment. We opened the new housing project in Rolleston Street. About 20 new houses: flash, new, dry, and affordable houses, which is going to house about 20 families\u2014and 60 more are being built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the Hon Dr Megan Woods for all the work that she is doing. You go to Auckland, and every street you go to, there is a new house and a new building coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis Government is for all New Zealanders. We know that having a house, having a shelter over the head makes a difference in people\u2019s lives. To me, what made a difference in my life was getting that K\u0101inga Ora house. It gave me a head start in life. That\u2019s why today I could be here, I could speak in this House, sharing my experience, because I got a head start in life. I could go to uni because I had shelter. I could work because I had shelter. In the last nine, 10 years, a lot of people couldn\u2019t afford that. That\u2019s why this Government is investing billions of dollars building more houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003ERolleston Street housing project is just the beginning for Wellington Central. There is more under way. Just around the corner from Rolleston Street, there are another 300 dry and affordable houses coming up, and this is going to house around 900 families. This is huge for Wellington, and this is what the Labour Government does. In Wellington, when the National Party left the House in 2017, we were left with 89 fewer public houses. In the past five years, we have delivered about 400 much more needed public houses for people and wh\u0101nau and families in Wellington City, and we will continue to provide more houses in the coming years, with over 1,000 in the pipeline across the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EAcross the country, we delivered about 13,300 public homes since October 2017, 11,285 of all those are new builds\u2014in contrast to the National Government, which left us with 1,500 fewer public houses. To put our public housing building programme in perspective, one-in-seven houses has been added by this Government in the last five years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI am proud to be part of the Government that is delivering the biggest-ever housing programme since the 1950s. This, housing, is just one of the things that we\u2019re doing. You can see what this Government is doing for the working people through increasing the minimum wage. Mr Speaker, thank you so much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022929ab46853f94401a05ca9069d43c959\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022929ab46853f94401a05ca9069d43c959\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u201CWhen will it end?\u201D farmers ask me. \u201CSoon, soon.\u201D\u2014I offer it to them\u2014\u201CAfter 14 October.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ea7fcfb40d746b59fa6f4d7a6a1619c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: M. bovis you mean? When will M. bovis end?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f97fd0b153b74c5da8b50db7fe17ac34\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: More vacuous assertions from the left, I see. Farmers everywhere, affronted by the political theatricality of the left, want change, and they deserve it. On this side of the House, the ACT Party have already offered solutions and are willing to deliver more to them. We\u2019re convinced conventional wisdom trumps political pontificating and piety, and common sense prevails. Rural New Zealand, lost to the Wellington boffins, will finally see pride returned, the ACT Party ever spurring that narrative that Government has a limited role, not a controlling one. Bureaucrats, a million miles away from on-farm practice, who know not of cowshed, woolshed, or farm paddock, are dictating terms of reference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228925ea10330f48fe85e2424c9c258d86\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Hard to get rid of M. bovis!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b26e37a6ac54a03bab44f4d29dd666c\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: In my time representing the rural sector, the questions come thick and fast\u2014more vacuous assertions from the left I see\u2014\u201CWhy is it so that the Government seeks solutions\u201D, they say, \u201Cfor ill-defined problems?\u201D That central mandate runs roughshod over local nuance or how on-farm morale could actually be so bad\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe0cef19cf4148bc92be6b044a087643\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Unless it\u2019s to get Wellington moving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b180b5c3b9e4b78bfaf1ac055ac69a6\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014something that that member would know nothing of. \u201CAnd how is it that Minister Parker and Minister Shaw continually offer priestly sermons from up on high about on-farm practice or where or how or why we should even farm?\u201D many ask.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ERecently, ACT returned from its rural heartland tour. The anger and the angst offered by farmers was commonplace. \u201CThe wasteful spending in Wellington\u201D, they said, \u201Cwas nonsense.\u201D The Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 allocated budget of $176 million\u2014reconcile that one\u2014for policy design was highlighted to me, but total disconnection from on-farm practices and outcomes and understanding were obvious, where cause and effect were leagues apart from today\u2019s policy makers. \u201CCome and talk to rural people.\u201D, they said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EWellington wonks aside, one didn\u2019t need to look far to find glaring examples of this problem: a proposed emissions pricing scheme that would see the world\u2019s most efficient farmers go into a taxable regime in the absence of technology only hurting small-town NZ. Ask any consumer\u2014say to them, ask them\u2014if driving up staple food prices is a good thing. Gracious me. It\u2019s up 12.5 percent in a year alone. Green vegetables are up over 20\u00A0percent. Beat up the rural sector, and that reality only gets worse. When will common sense prevail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThe idiocy of this is never more evident than the freshwater farm plans. Somehow Minister Parker\u2019s office and its officials know best\u2014more than those that do it. No more evidence was needed to highlight that centralism over localism does not work, when research results from Otago University\u2019s Associate Professor Janice Lord stated, in relation to intensive winter grazing, \u201CThe one-size-fits-all nature of this policy has the potential to create counterproductive outcomes.\u201D This is common sense. Everyone knows it to be so\u2014sadly not the Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThe list and the litany of confusion in rural New Zealand go beyond that He Waka Eke Noa and the semblance of it. Good luck, I say, to those trying to make sense of that riddle. That\u2019s right: the Labour Government still maintains that taxing the most climate-efficient farmers in the world is the way to go. Go figure. A full departure from common sense, I say, but, hey, what can you expect from an outgoing Government? Clearly no one has told these people the difference between a short-term and a long-term gas, but I guess explaining it is losing to this lot. Give me strength. While solace is just around the corner, 14 October is but a few months away, and, rest assured, for those that have suffered the foul wind of Labour, this lot will soon be gone come election. Dispense with the nonsense, and finally we can get back to what we do so well: farming in rural New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u002290f0efcfc3d641b8aeebb4d93aca8018\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290f0efcfc3d641b8aeebb4d93aca8018\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Really pleased to rise and take a call and reassure the member opposite, Mark Cameron, that there\u2019s some great stuff happening with our rural communities, because today I want to talk about and celebrate collaboration\u2014something this Government is really committed to doing and is really good at doing. Collaboration is time-consuming and it\u2019s messy, but when you come across a really wicked problem or a complex issue, and if you\u2019re really, really ambitious, collaboration is absolutely necessary. And I just want to bring a couple of examples of this, where the Government has successfully collaborated to solve complex issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI will start with M. bovis, because I think it\u2019s really important to highlight the serious commitment that this Government has to futureproofing our primary industries to sustain ourselves into the future. It was in 2017 when M. bovis was identified. I was an economics teacher in a rural school at the time, and in 2018 this Government joined up with DairyNZ and Beef \u002B Lamb New Zealand to collaborate. They knew it was going to be really hard; no one else in the world had bothered to even try, but because we sat down together and decided to collaborate and commit, it was going to be possible. It was hard, but it was going to be possible. I was a teacher of economics in a secondary school at the time\u2014talk about a teachable moment; it certainly was one. And it was great to hear from the Minister today that New Zealand currently has no farms infected with the cattle disease Mycoplasma bovis. And the effort continues, but at the moment we have zero farms infected and zero being investigated, because we collaborated. The sector and this Government trusted each other to go through what they knew would be incredibly hard, to write the playbook as they went, and make it work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EAnd I need to acknowledge the hardship felt by our communities\u2014many of us live in rural communities and we know the families, the farms, the connected businesses that have been impacted by the sacrifices that have been made. The reason we did it: if it had become endemic, it would have cost about $1.3 billion in lost production in the first 10 years alone. This was not Government dictating; this was everybody sitting down and committing to solving a wicked problem. We are moving in the right direction. All the indicators\u2014the bulk milk testing, which is an amazing surveillance system that has grown since 2018, and beef herd surveillance\u2014have confidence in our 10-year programme working. But of course, we\u2019re only as good as our detection systems and our on-farm records, and we know that the ongoing vigilance and commitment will be required into the future, and we need to make sure that that sacrifice by our farmers and the hardship felt by our communities\u2014very real hardship\u2014wasn\u2019t all for nothing. Like I say, I was an economics teacher at the time, and it was a golden opportunity to bring economics into the classroom and to explore the impact of decisions made by Governments and industry and how those impact directly on our families, on our farms, on our local town, on our exports and our economy. The cost was significant, nobody will ever deny that: 184,000 cattle culled, 280 farms depopulated, and thousands with movement controls and significant impact on the way that they operated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003ESo at this point, I\u2019d like to segue to talking about education in the classroom and just talk about something else that was a difficult problem and issue that has been hopefully resolved with an offer today to the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association and the secondary school teachers of this country. It\u2019s really difficult\u2014teachers are the most expensive but the most valuable part of our education system; it is really, really hard to value them when it costs so much. And after careful consideration and weighing up the current challenging financial environment, this Government has decided to make sure that we prove that we value our teachers and that we can bear the cost of making an offer. This historic offer will see beginning teachers receiving an annual increase of almost $11,000\u201435 percent at the top of the scale. This is a Government that recognises the value, not just the cost, of teachers, and we hope that this shows that we acknowledge the challenges in front of them and helps them to continue to fight for a fabulous education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002279dd9668820f4c39b85ba5d2a36f4b5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279dd9668820f4c39b85ba5d2a36f4b5e\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This week, hasn\u2019t it been fascinating to see what Labour really thinks about roads? They hate building roads, and we\u2019ve seen what they\u2019ve done in their last six years of office. When Labour came to office in 2017, the very first thing this Government did was they cancelled roading upgrades up and down the country: the East West Link in Auckland, Mill Road, Cambridge to Piarere, Tauranga Northern Link, Woodend bypass. The list goes on: Whang\u0101rei to Port Marsden, which has had 60 deaths and serious injuries over the prior 10 years. These are big, important projects to get New Zealand moving, to provide safer and more resilient connections, and what have we seen this week from the Labour Party? Once again, their hatred of building roads, their hatred of delivering for New Zealanders who use their cars in getting around the country, who want to spend less time and congestion and more time being able to do what they want to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis is a Government which not only cancelled building and upgrading our country so we had highly productive roading connections between our regions but they also said, \u201CWhat we\u2019re going to do is we\u2019re going to build Auckland light rail.\u201D Well, how\u2019s that going? As we heard from the Minister of Finance this afternoon, not one bit of construction has been done. They\u2019ve had six years in office, but they haven\u2019t even started construction. Shanan Halbert from the North Shore said, \u201CWe want Auckland to be a global city.\u201D Well, you\u2019ve had six years to turn Auckland into a global city, and absolutely nothing has been achieved. We\u2019ve seen tens of millions of dollars spent on consultants but nothing actually delivered. This Government has not been able to start and complete any major new infrastructure projects since they came to office, and that tells you everything about this Government. Not only do they hate roads; they hate delivering\u2014they hate delivering for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s also talk about Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving. Wasn\u2019t it hilarious to hear the Minister of Transport saying, \u201CWell, it\u2019s not really living up to its name\u2014it\u2019s not really living up to its name.\u201D, then the Minister of Finance saying, \u201CWell, we\u2019d like to get Wellington moving faster.\u201D Well, again, this Government has spent tens of millions of dollars, $114 million, on Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving, and what have they delivered? Well, for those of us who drive to the airport frequently, a new pedestrian crossing on Cobham Drive\u2014a new pedestrian crossing. Oh, and a slower speed limit on State Highway 1 going along Cobham Drive. That is what this Government has delivered in transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo this Government has failed to deliver. They\u2019ve cancelled the pipeline of infrastructure investment the last National Government has delivered, and what National has said this week is that we will get New Zealand back to delivering the transport infrastructure that New Zealanders need. We\u2019ve outlined our plan to deliver the roading upgrades that New Zealanders need so we can have safer, more resilient infrastructure across our country, where we can reduce travel time for New Zealanders stuck in congestion and we can give more people transport choices in our major urban environments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Government spent the last six years talking about Auckland light rail but has failed to deliver it. We are going to get on with delivering rapid transit in Auckland with a Northwestern busway, completing the Eastern Busway, and starting and completing the airport to Botany busway. These are projects which will make a huge difference to New Zealanders\u2019 lives, and while this Government talks, National will get on and deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI just want to reflect on the Prime Minister\u2019s comments yesterday where he said, \u201COh, look, well, we\u2019ve not even decided the route or the mode for Auckland light rail.\u201D This is the problem with this Government. They\u2019re now saying, \u201CWe\u2019re not going to make those decisions until next term.\u201D How many more years do these guys need just to make a decision, just to actually get on with doing things? This is a Government which has sat on their hands rather than actually delivering. They\u2019ve had six years to be able to actually make a difference for New Zealanders stuck in traffic, six years to actually deliver better public transport for New Zealanders, but they haven\u2019t done it. They\u2019re all talk and no action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENational has a plan. National has a policy for transport for the future in New Zealand. It delivers for New Zealanders across our country. It costs less than their $29.2 billion Auckland light rail they haven\u2019t even started, and it will impact far more New Zealanders. National will get New Zealanders back on track, we\u2019ll get transport back on track, and we\u2019ll deliver for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u002270050b7e292f48fda7e67064e343acbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270050b7e292f48fda7e67064e343acbc\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, we\u2019ve just been asked: what does this Government do when it comes to action and delivery? Thank you for the opportunity to tell you how much we\u2019ve been doing in Hawke\u2019s Bay and how much more we\u2019ve ever done compared to the National Government, who did absolutely nothing for Hastings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EIn fact, one thing they seem to think was such an achievement in Hastings was building six State houses. Well, I can tell you, Mr Speaker, that in this Government we\u2019ve built over 333 homes in Hastings, we\u2019ve got another 111 under way, and we\u2019ve got another 86 in development. Now, that\u2019s what we call housing. We don\u2019t sell down and sell out. We get on and we build\u2014and build back Hawke\u2019s Bay we will! Hundreds of millions of dollars of Government investment is coming in to back Hawke\u2019s Bay as we rebuild and rebuild resilience in the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EAnd as I say this, I absolutely acknowledge that there is a portion of our region that has absolutely been smashed, but there\u2019s also a major significant part of our region that is pulling our socks up and getting on with it to get the work done and to keep Hawke\u2019s Bay moving. And moving we are, because there have been hundreds of millions of dollars invested, firstly, into the regional recovery, but also into what we\u2019ve been doing. And if anybody wants to know how much I love lists, you only have to listen to my general debate speech when I start talking about the millions that we have been investing in Hastings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EA record of over $280 million has gone into Hastings outside of the recovery, and that has gone into things like water infrastructure. It\u2019s gone into civil engineering, of investment into infrastructure to build housing. Just in Hastings, in Flaxmere, we opened another area that\u2019s getting on with building, thanks to $11.5 million of Government investment, because we partner and we work together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EAs I read the news this week, it was absolutely so exciting to see that spending, spending in Hastings, is up, and it\u2019s up 27 percent because of international visitors coming back to the bay. That\u2019s because we know that tourists love our region and the sun will come up on Hawke\u2019s Bay and the visitors will come back and we will continue to see people coming in and backing the bay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EAnd when it comes to advocating hard and working with those Ministers that are making decisions on how we get our region moving, on how we build investment, you can absolutely be assured that when it comes to Stuart Nash, the MP for Napier, and with me, we\u2019re working hard out, advocating hard out for our region. And I\u2019m excited about what\u2019s yet to come for our region, because I can tell you that there are hundreds of millions of dollars coming in. We will build back bridges, we will build on the roads, we will recover, and we will back our growers, and we will back our farmers, and we will continue to do everything we can to keep our region moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EOn that, I just want to acknowledge again the hard work of our community, because it\u2019s by working together and showing community pride and spirit and keeping going\u2014the volunteers keep coming in and helping, people keep helping each other, and every day I speak to people in my region who are needing help, and we are there and we will continue to be there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that backs the bay. This is a Government that knows how much Hawke\u2019s Bay means to New Zealand. That\u2019s what\u2019s important and that\u2019s what I know from what we\u2019re seeing: hundreds of millions of dollars\u2014hundreds of millions\u2014coming into the region to keep our region going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221bab9a67e01042d2a5ec6174c65ea343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bab9a67e01042d2a5ec6174c65ea343\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I just want to take a brief moment in my general debate to acknowledge the success of the Mycoplasma\u00A0bovis eradication programme. I want to say that there are a lot of farmers out there who had their hearts broken in this programme, in the interest of what has developed into something good for the wider industry. Many of us felt it with you, and it\u2019s important to acknowledge today that that has been successful and it wasn\u2019t done for nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ENow, I want to move on to transport for the future. So, this week, the announcement from the National Party around transport for the future has really got people excited all the way around our country\u2014all the way around. I want to particularly focus on a couple of areas today\u2014largely the Waikato and Taranaki, which are either end of the beautiful Taranaki-King Country electorate. So what National has committed to do is to reinstate the Cambridge to Piarere road, which was in place and in play under a former National Government, and this current Government canned it. So that\u2019s back on the drawing board\u2014the thing that I really want to get excited about, as well as the Southern Links project. So that project is going to link Hamilton down through the wonderful area where the Hamilton Airport sits, in the wonderful Taranaki - King Country electorate, right through to where the Mystery Creek Fieldays are. It\u2019s going to join up a nice road around Hamilton, because, as we know, the Waikato Expressway has been fantastic. That was a National Government project, and that is working extremely well. And the southern Hamilton area, where I join in, is now going to get some attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EBut the good piece about the Southern Links is that New Zealand doesn\u2019t have enough houses, and we know this. We know that we need to enable our urban areas to grow. How we\u2019re going to deal with some of these roads is to enable greater use of the value-capture and cost-recovery tools so that we can fund major State highway projects specifically to unlock tens of thousands of new homes. So the Southern Links one is directly related to the Peacocke area, where the development is going on. So very excited about that. So that\u2019s the first part of it. It\u2019s going to unlock some housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EFor far too long, we\u2019ve heard so much about the \u201Cgolden triangle\u201D in this country that links Auckland with Hamilton and across to the Bay of Plenty. And I keep going, \u201CExcuse me, we\u2019ve got a west coast over here.\u201D Now, we\u2019re actually in the phase where we can start linking the Southern Links to come down through the Taranaki - King Country electorate. We can start focusing on the diamond\u2014forget about the triangle; under the National Government, the area has become a diamond, and women love diamonds!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo, as we focus down through that area, we go through the Awakino, where the two bridges are being put in place and the Awakino Tunnel Bypass has happened. And that was a John Key - Simon Bridges National Government project. We currently have cranes, diggers, and all sorts of equipment sitting in Mount Messenger, which was a John Key - Simon Bridges National-led project. It just seems to have taken almost six years to get through resource management, which is another problem that the National Government will attend to after 14 October. So we come down through there, and we have Port Taranaki. That\u2019s a great link for our goods and services to end up through the Waikato, and we can actually get some great linkages going on with produce, productivity, and all of the good products that we share between both of the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ENow, I just wanted to make one more mention about the Forgotten World Highway, because there\u2019s a piece of road there\u2014the Hon Shane Jones came, when the previous Government, which included this Labour Government, actually took the gas out of the country and left a small amount in Taranaki, and offered to do the Forgotten World Highway; except they forgot! It\u2019s only just beginning to get some movement. Simeon Brown and Christopher Luxon, under a National Government, have committed to finally finishing that road up, the Forgotten World Highway\u2014so it will be remembered under a National Government!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc042c1e3690427abbea27dd394f66c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc042c1e3690427abbea27dd394f66c0\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E One in seven\u2014one in seven public homes in this country have been built by this Labour Government. It\u2019s an incredible record of this Labour Government to have delivered public housing at the rate of no other Government since the early Labour Governments that we are so proud of. To look back and say that this Labour Government has delivered that many public homes is worth celebrating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAnd how have we done that? We have invested in the infrastructure that it takes to build those homes, and stripped back the barriers to building them. Because not only does this Government build homes, but we build the infrastructure that is needed for them. We build the roads that are needed for them\u2014as my colleague Anna Lorck pointed to, the example in the Hawke\u2019s Bay very recently announced. We also build the classrooms, we build the hospitals, we build those things that people need to live in their communities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237ec16de0c84c2c894205e1255e8a08\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: The pipes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c84777f130040c385d530cc0f1e7def\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and to thrive. But as my colleague Rachel Brooking shouts, yes\u2014we build the pipes. We put the groundwork in, we are doing the mahi that makes it possible for families to move into these new houses which my colleague Ibrahim Omer pointed to, announced very recently in Wellington. We build those pipes; we do the groundwork that puts those houses up faster and more efficiently than ever before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt is a track record that this Labour Government has, of delivering those things which New Zealanders need\u2014a roof over their heads, shelter to make their lives more enjoyable, better, to make sure that their families have somewhere warm and dry to live. I\u2019m proud of that record. We\u2019re also on track to deliver 18,000 new public and transitional housing places by 2024. There is vision for delivering more of the kind of housing that we need to make sure that people are thriving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut not only does it mean those things that we can see and those physical things: the groundwork, the pipes, the roads, the flood protection, and the waste water. This Government has also done the work this term to make sure that we are adapting to the different kinds of conditions that we will continue to see. Earlier this year, we were all reminded of the devastating effects of climate change we are having right now. Things like flooding affecting Auckland, cyclone affecting Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2014extreme weather events that are causing more and more damage to people\u2019s homes and livelihoods. Building houses is not just about putting those pipes in the ground, it\u2019s also making sure that people are out of harm\u2019s way, that they can live in a place which is safe for them to live. We haven\u2019t had rules in place before that have meant that the Aucklanders who are affected by the Auckland floods were safe and that their children could go to school in the morning, and that is something which this Government needs to advance. It needs to be advanced in a cross-partisan way as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat brings me to an important piece of work that I\u2019d like to highlight for the House. It\u2019s the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee briefing on M\u0101ori climate adaptation. That committee has done some important work\u2014and I have the report here, which was reported back recently to the House\u2014on traversing those issues which are particularly impactful for M\u0101ori assets, M\u0101ori land, marae, urup\u0101. Those things which are important to not only M\u0101ori having houses and a place to call home and a place to call k\u0101inga, but also to our identity as M\u0101ori. And as we grapple with those extreme weather events and sea level rise, it will become increasingly important for Government to face up to the issues which are specific for M\u0101ori and make sure that M\u0101ori do not bear the brunt of climate change and become particularly badly affected by it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat briefing was an extensive piece of work where the committee came to a host of what are cross-partisan recommendations. All of the committee agreed to the recommendations included in that report, and they are vast. They are about the particular planning processes which we should have to make sure that people are safe in the homes that we build. They\u2019re about how we should engage with communities, not just M\u0101ori communities, but in a way where everyone can get around the table and make decisions about what communities need to do to make sure that their houses and their infrastructure is safe from climate adaptation, and that\u2014where it\u2019s necessary\u2014they can move in a way where if they need to be together, they can be together. If they need to move to other parts of a city or an urban environment or another part of land, that they can have those conversations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThose are really important recommendations, and I do want to thank the Ministry for the Environment officials who assisted the committee with its work, as well as Te Puni K\u014Dkiri officials and the clerks\u2014Jayden, Violet, and David\u2014thank you for the work on that. It\u2019s all part of this Government\u2019s plan to continue to invest in the infrastructure that we need to strip back the barriers to build more houses and to give people the homes they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9f4b36d6c1746d79dbc69176b1b9646\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9f4b36d6c1746d79dbc69176b1b9646\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I stand today to honour the strength of communities who are doing their best to survive, and I\u2019m talking specifically about rangatahi and young people who are forced to find paid employment while still having to go to school, because housing costs are way too high and incomes supporting families are not high enough. This is when they should instead be going to school, but I want to acknowledge their fierceness, their loyalty to their families, and their protectiveness of their families. They are really clear: they do absolutely reject the stigmatisation and dehumanisation of their very families that has for far too long been dominant over many, many years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge also their school communities, who fight hard for these rangatahi to be recognised for the incredible leaders that they are. They are loyal and dedicated and they love school, but they want to help their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe problem is that for too long, we in this House have continued to make political choices over successive decades in Government that keep prioritising housing as a way to build wealth for a few and that keep undermining the incomes and support that families should have always been having so that these rangatahi can prioritise their education, instead of being forced into situations that sacrifice their education. Successive Governments could have always chosen to end poverty, and instead tax people who own and not just tax people who earn, because political leaders have continued to dehumanise and stigmatise these very families, who continue to try and do their best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWhat are we here for if not to improve lives and address the underlying systemic drivers of these causes\u2014whether it\u2019s ACT squabbling over a $50 voucher, without mentioning and fighting against the long-held health inequities that have existed in our system for M\u0101ori, or whether it\u2019s the National Party talking about forcing someone to pay more tax, without mentioning the choices when families are forced to live in crappy, expensive, unaffordable homes. This country still allows housing to be used to build wealth instead of homes for people. It\u2019s something we should all be stepping up to, including if we are serious about reducing offending. Improving incomes and housing will go a heck of a long, intergenerational way towards solving that issue, with a wellbeing focus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe Greens are clear that we can absolutely have a guaranteed income, where everyone has what they need to provide, including top-ups for people raising families, and where we could actually end poverty. What a goal that would be, and the intergenerational wellbeing impact that that would have\u2014my goodness! We should be fighting to make these decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe can also end poverty by addressing housing, having a pledge to renters while controlling the amount that rents can increase, and, at the same time, massively prioritising and massively scaling up public, affordable, and community housing. These solutions have always been here for us, but it has been simple, political will that has refused to put these solutions in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe politics of leadership would prioritise these voices. In these schools, we\u2019d prioritise the principals, including these principals from \u014Ctara and Glen Innes that are sharing these stories, not to further stigmatise these families, but to highlight the very leadership and solutions. They are asking us to talk not just about low attendance, but they are asking us\u2014their voices are clear\u2014to look at what is happening behind the low attendances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe want tamariki to go to school, to improve our incomes, and to end the housing crisis and unaffordability\u2014that\u2019s what will help improve attendance for these rangatahi and these families with schools. Don\u2019t just listen to me; listen to these principals, listen to these families, and listen to these rangatahi, who are generously sharing their voices and their leadership. That is the political leadership that surely we should all be invested in in this House for many generations to come\u2014long-term solutions that will actually get to the depth of drivers that are causing the big issues that we are facing, the big issues that many of us, I have no doubt, genuinely care about but are refusing to pull the levers that would make the most difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe have costed our policies. We can count. We would be able to solve so much with a wealth tax on those who have more than enough. That\u2019s leadership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d23433d2ad4841b8ac1a3bac9a52a967\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d23433d2ad4841b8ac1a3bac9a52a967\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00224b575a85d5ef4493b8df8c7375b78fb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b575a85d5ef4493b8df8c7375b78fb4\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Last week, the Labour Government\u2019s fantastic health Minister, the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall, visited my electorate of Nelson to make an exciting announcement that our Government is rebuilding Nelson Hospital. The rebuild of Nelson Hospital is the largest capital project in a generation, and I\u2019m delighted to be able to speak about our new hospital and the exciting project that is about to start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe current buildings at Nelson Hospital are outdated, they are cramped, and they require earthquake strengthening. The Minister and I toured part of the hospital, and I\u2019ve visited parts of these buildings before as well\u2014they are cramped, there is equipment down the corridor, there are bathrooms that are not fit for purpose, there is an emergency department that needs to be expanded. When the former health Minister, David Clark, did a stocktake of all hospital buildings in New Zealand, it was found that the George Manson and Percy Brunette buildings were some of the worst hospital buildings in New Zealand. These two buildings require significant earthquake strengthening. The Percy Brunette building will need to be strengthened and repurposed. The George Manson building is continuing to have work assessed to determine whether it needs to be either strengthened or completely pulled down. The initial plan for this building was to completely demolish it once the new building was in place\u2014there is current work occurring that could mean we could save that building and repurpose it; but I\u2019m confident in the work that\u2019s being done at the moment to make that full assessment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAnother reason why we need a new hospital is that our population is growing\u2014it\u2019s growing, and our population is ageing. Our current hospital serves 170,000 people across Te Tau Ihu, the top of the south areas of Nelson-Marlborough and into Tasman. It\u2019s predicted to grow by 2040 to 186,000 people. That\u2019s why I\u2019m so delighted that as part of this announcement, the hospital building itself will have an increase in beds from 161 beds to 255 beds. The number of theatres will increase from six theatres to eight theatres. There will be a bigger emergency department. And one of the groups who have been very excited about our new building is our helicopter pilots from our emergency helicopters that fly around the region. They\u2019re delighted they\u2019re going to be able to land on the top of a building, rather than their precarious arrangement flying over my home and people who live in the Nelson south area and landing on a very small patch of gravel right next to a set of traffic lights. So they were delighted when I spoke to them recently about the improvements being made to Nelson Hospital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe new hospital building will be built across the top of our current car park. There will be significant work that will require a couple of years\u2019 worth of work to do all of what we call enabling works. That includes the engineering and architectural design, the planning, clearing the site, laying the pipes and the infrastructure needed before we build this very large new building. A lot of people have asked me, \u201CWhat will happen to our car parking; where will we park when we go to the hospital?\u201D And the hospital has leased car parking from the nearby fields called The Broads, owned by Nelson College, so we will have temporary car parking in place while the new hospital is built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI\u2019m grateful that our Government has taken the time to fully scope and cost this project. Previous senior leaders pleaded with me to do this job properly and to not cut any corners. The National Party only promised $500 million\u2014that was part of a campaign budget that had shonky numbers around it, and it\u2019s why I\u2019m so grateful that our Government has pledged the full amount for this hospital: $1.098\u00A0billion, because that is what it will cost, and it is what Nelsonians deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMake no mistake that National\u2019s plans have billions of dollars of holes in them; their tax cuts will mean cuts to important projects like Nelson Hospital. The new Nelson Hospital is what patients deserve, it\u2019s what the staff of Nelson Hospital deserve, and it\u2019s what the people of Nelson deserve, and I\u2019m proud to be the Nelson MP delivering this project for Nelson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00222068bfa12ce34303ab29daa2e99aec46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222068bfa12ce34303ab29daa2e99aec46\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation 2023/24 Estimates Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f464a2b3801a4c118de54c42edffa2d2\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a75fec958574a489cfd8e4cef6d7b2a\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1efb53ed01741df8a353d4d4e7c061a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1efb53ed01741df8a353d4d4e7c061a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dde6a9c20bdc408695d8cae464926501\u0022\u003EEstimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b0e432d2ee2f40f793da06d8eed19109\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000291\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 1 August on the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221be9a9032bde458ea3f18ceaa34c4421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221be9a9032bde458ea3f18ceaa34c4421\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come first to the Appropriation (2023/24\u00A0Estimates) Bill. The Business Committee has determined to organise the debate by portfolio, so there will be no sector specific debates. All Votes are available for debate, but only specific Ministers will be available each day to speak to the indicated portfolios only. The Government has indicated that the Minister of Police and the Minister of Finance will be available today. Each debate will be led by a call from the chairperson or member of the committee that considered the Estimates most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThis debate expires after 11 hours, at which point questions will be put that the Votes stand part of the Schedules and on the provisions of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. There are six hours, 58 minutes remaining in this debate. New Zealand Labour has three hours, 18 minutes remaining. New Zealand National has two hours, 11 minutes remaining. ACT New Zealand has 42\u00A0minutes remaining. The Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has 32 minutes remaining. Te Paati M\u0101ori has 11 minutes remaining. Dr Elizabeth Kerekere has six minutes remaining, and the Hon Meka Whaitiri has six minutes remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe Estimates debate should be relevant to the Government\u2019s current spending plans as contained in the Estimates of Appropriations. A compendium of the reports of select committees on the Votes is available on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is, once again, that the Votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriation for 202324 stand part of the Schedules. Members, we start with the Minister of Police. The Minister is available from 3.55 p.m. to 4.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebc3be3f0d0147a78e5da5b0cccb73fa\u0022\u003EPolice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00222034aa086fd84dfe97fbd784dac16d98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222034aa086fd84dfe97fbd784dac16d98\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Deputy Chairperson of the Justice Committee):\u003C/span\u003E I rise as deputy chair to report on the Justice Committee\u2019s hearing regarding Vote Police, Vote Serious Fraud, and the appropriations for retail crime subsidy, which we heard from the Minister of Police, the Hon Ginny Andersen, the New Zealand Police, the Serious Fraud Office, and had advice from the AuditorGeneral\u2019s office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EIn opening, I note a continuing trend of significant increased funding for Police over the last three years and the levelling off of funding for Serious Fraud following two years of very significant increases. The first discussion was of police numbers and both the Ministers and the Commissioner of Police confirmed that the Government has achieved its target of increasing the number of frontline police by 1,800 from 2017 staffing levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThe Police commissioner noted that some of those staff focus on organised crime, working COVID operations, and forensic accounting that, and I quote, \u201Cdoesn\u2019t sit naturally in a police station, but which is having a direct impact on organised crime.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThe Minister also reported on significant increases in diversity within the police, with around 40\u00A0percent more M\u0101ori, 80 percent more Pasifika, 60 percent more women, and 157 percent more people of Asian descent serving in the police compared to 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ENext, the Police commissioner explained that their struggle to meet performance measures is due to the challenging environment following COVID, which created heavy demand for urgent mental health and family violence responses, which had risen and which needed to be prioritised. We asked what work is happening to ensure an interagency response to those kinds of incidents to reduce pressure on the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThe Minister highlighted Te Aorerekura\u2019s ongoing work, increasing interagency cooperation in family violence, and the promising results of the Government pilot of joint police and mental health experts or paramedics in mental health callouts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Police that target time frames for processing firearms licences have increased from 30 days to 90 days because of the greater diligence required by the recommendations of the royal commission of inquiry into the terrorist attack on the Christchurch masjidain. The Police said they have cleared a large backlog and are confident they are on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWe asked also about the impact of the new nationwide firearms register. The Police acknowledged that while the vast majority of firearms offences are committed by unlicensed individuals, most such firearms have come through licensed owners, through burglary as much as by anything else. On the register, the Police stated \u201Chelps ensure accountability\u201D. We also heard that in the last year the Police completed more safety compliance checks than ever before and under the new system they pointed out that they can prioritise checks for higher risk individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWe asked also for an update on the nationwide roll-out of the tactical response model (TRM) which improves safety by, inter alia, doubling the tactical training of front-line staff from 3.5 to 7.5\u00A0days a year and introducing tactical two-person dog teams. The Police told us that the four district trial of TRM had shown increased safety for front-line police who felt safer and more assured in their decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWe also addressed changes to the fleeing driver pursuit policy with the commissioner, following the review of the December 2020 changes which, while designed to reduce the level of deaths following pursuit, had seen an increase in fleeing drivers. The new policy increases the criteria available in decision making for individual officers. But the commissioner emphasised, and we acknowledged, the difficulties of setting and operating these parameters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EFinally, we discussed the Government\u2019s November 2022 retail crime subsidy scheme, giving small shops and dairies a subsidy to install fog cannons with a $4.5 million funding, for which the Minister is responsible. The Minister reiterated that the level of retail crime is unacceptable. She reported positive feedback from those accessing the subsidy scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWe also heard that the Police\u2019s new dedicated retail crime unit has already initiated the prosecution of 200 people for 1,200 offences, while the Minister told us that the involvement of a specialist unit in prosecutions has meant higher sentences on average. She refuted the suggestion that the rise in retail crime was linked to the Government\u2019s work to reduce the prison population, since sentencing rates for retail crime offences have not changed and most of the reduction in prison numbers is due to reduced imprisonment for traffic and drug offences. I commend this report to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00227df31462d4e940a19fd76e55dd9a83b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227df31462d4e940a19fd76e55dd9a83b7\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, thank you very much. I just want to acknowledge that we have the Deputy Commissioner of Police in the Chamber, and acknowledge the work that his staff did in Auckland recently with that tragedy in downtown Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is this: in an internal email sent out to police, it was said that \u201Cas we continue to operate in a more fiscally constrained economy with growing demand on services we deliver, there remains pressure on Police\u2019s financial position.\u201D Can the Minister please stand and just give us some background and let us know exactly what that means and what the implications are, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIf the Minister doesn\u2019t want to answer that question, can she answer this question or respond to this and explain to this committee and to the people of New Zealand who are currently experiencing the worst levels of violent crime that we have seen in our history as a country\u2014and I think that they deserve an answer to what seems to be an apparent attempt to apply some fiscal restraint to our police service at a time when they\u2019re trying to respond to enormous demands, certainly on their front line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo my next question is this: are there going to be any delays to recruitment for non-specific constabulary roles? And, if they are non-specific constabulary roles, what exactly does that mean because the Minister stood in the House two or three weeks ago and quite clearly told the House that authorised officers, now, are considered the front line of policing and so, if that is the case\u2014if there is going to be a restriction on these roles\u2014how is that going to impact the new front line of policing and what sort of pressure is going to be put back on the front line if these fiscal restraints are going to mean that either positions can\u2019t be hired for or they can\u2019t be replaced? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWhat does it mean to front-line police officers when another point that has been highlighted is that they\u2019re looking at minimising the collection of time off in lieu (TOIL), annual leave, and the appointment of any new non-constabulary position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EMinister, these questions are critically important not just to this House, not just to the people of New Zealand but to the front-line police officers that are actually out there every day trying to keep our community safe whilst at the same time dealing with a huge increase in violent crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022c126f42abc794097b81b715acdb1e690\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c126f42abc794097b81b715acdb1e690\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Thank you to the member for those questions. I\u2019ll run it so I won\u2019t answer every single question, if that\u2019s all right, but I\u2019ll clump them and do them all and then do a bit, if that\u2019s all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, in relation to the email that was sent out by the Deputy Commissioner of Police, that was in relation to funding that has been allocated. So there is no cut to funding. It was, I think, a very prudent and wise reminder for how those funds will be utilised. So things like not doing excessive travel are really important ways of making sure that we get good value for taxpayer money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhat that does not change at all is the fact that this Government has committed funding to continue the ratio of one police officer to every 480 New Zealanders. So that funding has been taken as part of Budget 2023 and that will continue forward. So the fact that there was an internal email sent out to police staff to remind them to be prudent in terms of not overly engaging consultants if not necessary is simply what I think is good practice in terms of the Public Service and that we are making sure that that money is being used effectively. So I think it was a wise thing to do and it\u2019s good to see that we see those sort of practices happening within Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the pressures on demand, the member knows I\u2019ve already stated quite clearly in this House that, from the front line, what we do here is the two big areas we see putting pressure on demand\u2014the increased number of family violence occurrences that we\u2019re seeing, and also mental health; they\u2019re the two main areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, in terms of making sure that we meet those demands, there is nothing in that email that takes away from the fact that we will continue to maintain that 1:480 ratio and that we will also continue to work with wider programmes like Te Aorerekura and Wh\u0101ngaia Ng\u0101 P\u0101 Harakeke, which works alongside, to make sure that we have good practices in place for sharing information, for ensuring that community safety is paramount, and we\u2019re also working smarter in the area of family violence because we know it\u2019s those long-term investments in community resourcing that will have an impact on that demand over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhen we look at family violence, in particular what we are seeing in the statistics is that, while we\u2019re seeing an increase in the numbers of family violence occurrences, the level of really serious ones is not as high as it has been. So that demonstrates to me that there is an increased appetite within the public to report family violence, and that\u2019s a good thing, I see as Minister, because it shows trust and confidence in our front line, it shows trust and confidence to report family violence, and it gives us some hope that we can continue to work in this space to bring down that reporting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u002206fe55d7319345fd81f36fa59ad27ed1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206fe55d7319345fd81f36fa59ad27ed1\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just continuing the more fiscally restrained environment theme\u2014just this week, teachers got a 14.5 percent pay increase and I\u2019m just wondering what sort of advocacy the Minister is taking to her Cabinet to maybe secure police a 14.5 percent increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f84a5625294ce8b196e8eee24cb6cb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Could you repeat the question, please? The Minister had difficulty hearing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb3e43bb7424562bfff4516227c13db\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE\u003C/span\u003E: Just this week, the schoolteachers got an increase of 14.5 percent approved by Cabinet, I understand. And I\u2019m just wondering what sort of advocacy the Minister is taking to Cabinet for police officers and whether she is also asking for a 14.5\u00A0percent increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00222bad8d9db4d047a587959864d991bc6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bad8d9db4d047a587959864d991bc6e\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I\u2019ll ask two questions on two different topics\u2014just to give you some time to be able to answer them. The first one is looking at the Budget. In 2017, Police were given $1.8 billion in their Vote Police budget. This year, they\u2019ve been given $2.6 billion. We\u2019re seeing an increase in crime and, as such, we\u2019ve seen money allocated to crime prevention drop from $564 million to $537\u00A0million; investigations and case resolution from $819\u00A0million to $808 million; primary response management from $702 million to $662 million\u2014at a time when crime is increasing. So, Minister, I\u2019m wondering why it is that, with the actual overall increase in Police budget, there is a decrease in some of the areas that actually need more input and improvement so that police can get out there and tackle crime. That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EMy second question is around the $200-plus million that has been given to establish the Firearms Safety Authority and how, when we have allocated that much money to the authority, we are in a position where emails are being sent out. I have to wonder, Minister, whether there has been no input into the ability to have a secure email facility, because this is the second time that this has happened in four years. It\u2019s not acceptable. It doesn\u2019t help with the registry. I also just want to know whether or not there is going to be improvement in that\u2014what sort of improvement are we looking for?\u2014because the firearm owners out there are telling us that they are sick and tired of being at the end of data breaches by New Zealand Police and no one being held accountable for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, when we\u2019re looking at this massive amount\u2014over $200 million\u2014going into the firearms sector, why are we having such fundamental silly mistakes occur? And before I sit down, I\u2019d also just like to acknowledge Deputy Commissioner Jevon McSkimming and also policy people that are here. I look forward to your answer. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002281a0dd03098e4e56bfef7b0019437dab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281a0dd03098e4e56bfef7b0019437dab\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The Minister got up and she spoke for five minutes on family harm. By the way, this Government\u2019s got an awful record on family harm, especially when you consider that they have a dedicated Minister for that role. But she is not here to answer our questions or respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab12b6435f2344a8980304fc4b082960\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mitchell, you know you don\u2019t comment on the absence of people from the House. So just carry on. You\u2019ve been around long enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c422cda09c4b4e93bb135a78fe6635ea\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. So I am going to ask the Minister again to, rather than talk about family harm, please address these issues that are very specific and very direct. How is the fiscal constraint that has now been introduced and is having to be dealt with by the Police actually going to impact and affect the day-to-day operations? Please stand up and explain to us and let us know and give us some confidence that this is not going to impact on districts\u2014that, if someone leaves a position, it is going to be filled even if it may not be a sworn constable position\u2014and please explain delaying recruitment for specific non non-constabulary roles. What does that mean and what impact is that going to have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EAnd by the way, the most important one for all of our 9,000-plus front-line serving police officers out there today doing the job, that are prepared to put in the hard yards, work longer hours to try and respond to what they\u2019ve had to deal with\u2014and that is a massive increase in violent crime and offending\u2014is a proposal here that\u2019s looking at minimising the collection of time off in lieu, annual leave, and the appointment of any new non-constabulary role. I would ask the Minister to get up and actually show some respect to those front-line officers and respond to the question and explain what the implications of this are and what her expectations are as the Minister. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022db527ce8f40949e48c3a070aaf85494a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db527ce8f40949e48c3a070aaf85494a\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. In terms of Nicole McKee, look, I straightaway acknowledged that I was really not happy at all with the fact that that email was sent. I\u2019ve made that really clear. I met with the commissioner that very day within hours of me finding that out, and I\u2019ve asked specifically what happened and what steps have been taken to make sure that what I understand is a human error will not occur again. So the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s office has been advised and also a rapid review has determined what steps we can do in the future to make sure that that never happens again. And so I\u2019ve been assured by the commissioner that the process, when sending emails internally, has now subsequently been changed in order for that never to be able to happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ELook, I think it\u2019s important to state that there\u2019s been contact back with all of those people who the email was sent out to. And the mistake was that instead of them being bcc-ed, they were sent in the send, so they received the email addresses of other people. So each of those individuals has been contacted and liaised with. Look, I\u2019ve made it clear I\u2019m not happy with that, but I think it\u2019s also important to note that that email itself is separate to the integrity of the firearms registry and the data that is kept within that registry. It in no way compromises the data that\u2019s held in there and the way that that has been managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the member\u2019s question, in terms of\u2014I don\u2019t have the same figures you were talking to in terms of where the breakdowns of spending occurred. So police projects can fluctuate, and that can depend on things such as proceeds of crime, what money comes in from that process of restraining those illegal items from gangs and organised crime, and also being able to put that into and resource new types of streams. So there are fluctuations in that space\u2014that does occur. Regarding the huge investment in front-line capability, my understanding is that that enables crime prevention to take place because we have more police officers who are able to establish relationships, who are able to do that work in the community, and that means when they call upon that or when they go and investigate a crime, then those issues are resolved more quickly if there is that ability to already have had a relationship in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EYou know, that is very much of the policing with the consent of the community, the model that has been developed over time. And it\u2019s that trust and confidence and investment in the front line that enables good information to come back from the community, in that tight relationship with police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the other member\u2019s question in relation to that email\u2014I think I did answer that. My view was that it was prudent, the way that is spent. There is no impact on front-line resources; we have a 1:480 ratio that remains funded. We have had a 50 percent increase in the amount of funding since 2017 to now a 50 percent increase in funding of Police. A big part of that has been increasing those police ratios from the mid-500s to now 480. So that is unchanged and the email that was sent was simply stipulating the prudent management of existing funding. In no way, shape, or form did it erode or cut from what funding has been secured for this Budget. And that also means that that 1:480 ratio will be maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022a90e9094149c4aa98240004217fb4361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a90e9094149c4aa98240004217fb4361\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m totally confused in relation to that answer. The Minister just stood up and said there\u2019s going to be no change, that the funding is still there, and that there are not going to be any changes. But it\u2019s very clear by the email that\u2019s been sent out that there is going to be a delay for recruiting of specific non-constabulary roles and that they\u2019re going to be minimising the collection of time off in lieu (TOIL). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EShe hasn\u2019t answered this question, and this question is very pertinent for front-line police officers, many of whom will finish their night shift and have to carry on working, because there\u2019s enormous pressure on the front line\u2014often understaffed, trying to deal with the calls that are coming through and being triaged and getting backed up. They\u2019ll work past their night-shift finish time. They\u2019ll work past their early shift finish time. And they collect TOIL, time off in lieu. What does it mean when you\u2019ve got a police service that is already stretched\u2014and the police Minister acknowledged that in the House today in relation to the Police Association president\u2019s comment that the police front-line are overwhelmed with the increase in crime\u2014and what is meant by the fact that they\u2019re looking at minimising the collection of TOIL and annual leave, and why is that being looked at and proposed if she\u2019s standing in this committee and telling us that there is going to be no change? Either the deputy commissioner is wrong or she\u2019s wrong. It can\u2019t be both, so which one is it? I would, please, drive home the importance of articulating very clearly as the police Minister\u2014and I hope that the Minister understands how TOIL and annual leave work and how it impacts the welfare and the mental health of front-line staff who are under enormous pressure. I would like her to stand up and clearly articulate for us exactly what the proposed minimising of the collection of TOIL and annual leave actually means to our front-line staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u0022564274a762a74f5883594628259e8a8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022564274a762a74f5883594628259e8a8a\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question to the Minister is about some of the repeated questioning that she has received with regards to people feeling safe and, of course, the 1,800 additional police that we have added to the front line. So my question is specifically to the roll-out of the tactical response model and what we can expect to see from that roll-out over the next 12 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022955316442f5245279c3ecb772bd694f2\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I couldn\u2019t catch the end of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4a8da488d60442885cfeb71a9ef3263\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just repeat that last part of your sentence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210dd02b943034d869957d4d83f555921\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. It\u2019s about the roll-out of the tactical response model and what we expect to see from this roll-out roughly over the next 12 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00222d748d90544945e18224e7f6ad7433a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d748d90544945e18224e7f6ad7433a6\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E I thought the Minister would at least be able to answer a patsy from someone in her own team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022825f9917c309417cbeb03f873094f9fa\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Sour grapes over there. Sour grapes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a45a46c248f64156bb53a0881ab66bb0\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister couldn\u2019t even answer a patsy. It\u2019s ridiculous. It makes a joke\u2014it makes a mockery of this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe2cd47f2734b758eb6c31bab9190f5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: On task, Mr Mitchell. On task.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b7f199de750458abf2a9774c91c6e44\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to ask the Minister why we had to roll out the tactical response unit in New Zealand. What was it a response to? Was it a response to the fact that our front-line police officers are having to deal with a lot more violent incidents involving firearms? Is that the fact that assaults on our front-line police officers were increasing at an alarming rate? Is it recognition that it was a mistake to get rid of the armed response unit that was already in place? If the Minister is able to answer any of those questions, it would be much appreciated. But the one that I\u2019d really like an answer to\u2014the one that I\u2019d really like to know about\u2014is about those officers that are on the tactical response model and take great pride in the service that they\u2019re providing, the back-up that they\u2019re providing, to their friends and their colleagues in keeping communities safe. They\u2019d be very interested to know why there\u2019s an email that\u2019s come out as part of fiscal constraints that have been applied to the police, out of Police National Headquarters, that\u2019s looking at minimising the collection of time off in lieu and annual leave. There needs to be a very clear, succinct answer to that. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00229f9bb5c980d340e3bbd49ce03d786cc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f9bb5c980d340e3bbd49ce03d786cc2\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Like all organisations, Police is facing increases in costs reflecting the inflation that we\u2019ve seen. I think that email is simply a reflection of that reality. So, just to be really clear, the recruitment freeze doesn\u2019t affect\u2014I\u2019ve said this before, but I\u2019ll say it again, because I don\u2019t think I was heard the first two times\u2014constabulary or authorised officers; it is only support or Police National Headquarters staff. Now, it is interesting that that member made quite a point of the fact that, in terms of the views that I\u2019ve seen expressed, there were far too many bureaucrats and far too many non-sworn. And so, now, it seems quite a different angle where you\u2019re saying that you want to see more of those people, and you\u2019re actually quite concerned that, if we don\u2019t employ those, it will have an impact on front line. So that\u2019s quite different to the line of argument that we\u2019ve heard in previous weeks. But just to say it again, to be crystal clear, that email does not mean that there will be any impact on authorised officers or front-line constabulary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the time off in lieu (TOIL) reduction, it also ensures our staff aren\u2019t overstretched in terms of health and safety issues. That is standard management to make sure that, if people are accruing annual leave or TOIL, it is being used. That\u2019s a good reflection and a good employer that encourages people to utilise what they\u2019re owed and not let it add up. If someone has lots and lots of hours of TOIL or lots and lots of annual leave accrued, that\u2019s a good indicator they have not had a break. That\u2019s not my job as Minister; that\u2019s the job of Police in terms of operational management, to make sure their staff are well looked after, to make sure they\u2019re getting adequate breaks, to making sure they\u2019re getting adequate time to take a rest. It\u2019s a good employer that encourages staff to take their TOIL and take their annual leave, so I do not see that as a reflection of stopping good service being delivered and good safety to New Zealanders; I see that as a prudent employer who\u2019s thinking about the wellbeing of staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the questions in relation to the tactical response model (TRM): to both, I\u2019d just like to say that the benefit of the TRM, as asked over here\u2014just to answer the patsy for the benefit of those members\u2014is to really combine intel with kit. We know we\u2019ve got some great capability within the police service. We want to make sure that that\u2019s being used where there is risk. It\u2019s tailoring the intelligence, weighing up the risk that\u2019s there for the front line, and having a proportionate response to that risk. And so the feedback I\u2019ve had from the Wellington district alone is that they\u2019ve actually been able to do some quite big jobs that they were anticipating being problematic, and they were done incredibly swiftly and safely for front-line officers. The best thing about the TRM, for me, and the benefits of using intel alongside capability really means a decrease in front-line assaults. You\u2019re right; I take the member\u2019s point that we have seen an increase in weapons in the community; we have seen an increase in more brazen crime, and that can sometimes, more often than not, bring risks to our front-line officers. This model is the right thing to do to make sure our front line are appropriately equipped both in terms of the intelligence and the kit to be able to respond to those threats. And what we see in those areas where the tactical response model was trialled is that we had a significant reduction in the number of assaults on police, and those are the numbers that I watch clearly. I\u2019m really pleased to see that, now, this will be rolled out right across New Zealand in all 12 districts. I\u2019m really looking forward to seeing a continual decline in those assaults on front-line staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b685f0bc44564dab82465a6b4123c6d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b685f0bc44564dab82465a6b4123c6d6\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just regarding the fiscally restrained environment again and the freeze on the non-sworn, Police National Headquarters increased over the last six years by 806 members; 153 of those I believe were sworn staff, the rest non-sworn. Can we assume that those numbers won\u2019t increase at all over the next however long this freeze is on for the non-sworn staff? Just on another topic, I\u2019ve heard anecdotally on a number of occasions that there are front-line staff who aren\u2019t equipped to go out and deal with front-line duties\u2014mainly the reports I\u2019m getting are the body armour, the lack of body armour\u2014and I\u2019m just wondering whether that is an issue anywhere around, and what they should do to remedy that. Thanks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022b11d12dbafeb47f4899677195bc9ddb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b11d12dbafeb47f4899677195bc9ddb5\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, first of all, I\u2019ll just address your comment that we didn\u2019t seem to put any value on backroom staff or authorised officers\u2014let me correct the record on that one. Our point was quite simply this: you led the country to believe that the 1,800 new staff\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d3050311c84f689fae3672226fc11c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t do anything, Mr Mitchell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227baff810477f492cbb56c6bb0e4b5306\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014were front line. I\u2019m addressing an issue the Minister raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc6a5f4f978245bf83dbeba886521f0b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223faa269a18754058b455d810b3bd322d\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. So I\u2019ve got no right of reply to that, Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dab167e6801c4c759410b2af8ab3e46c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, just don\u2019t use the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e086b2e32b43939255498c6f4eec32\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry, sir, I apologise\u2014I apologise. So the Minister raised that issue. Quite simply, our issue was this: you misled the\u2014sorry, Mr Chair. The Minister quite simply misled the country and was deceptive in making just about every Kiwi believe that they were delivering 1,800 front-line sworn officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3d8c701204a4dddada6ad4b2e410b70\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mitchell, just be careful with that choice of terms, please. You know the rules; you\u2019ve been here long enough. Just be careful with your choice of terms, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc4b0d619d7f4263bf84d638b04be247\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m being very specific in my choice of terms, Mr Chair, because, in my view\u2014and I\u2019m entitled to my view\u2014it was deeply deceptive to keep standing up in this Chamber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220990bccbdff04990a14fa15d64353b8d\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair. The terminology that the member is referring to or using is something that is long held as inappropriate in terms of being used in the House, whether it is someone\u2019s view or not. It is a reflection on the member, and I invite you to rule accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b70e63e5c74db3a1e8d86eacf3a8da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mitchell, I did warn you. You have a reasonable range of vocabulary, could you just widen it, please? You\u2019ve been here long enough to know that. You\u2019re just detracting from your message.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e6cf021f2ae4629ba9ff06730e56c1c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. So the message is this: you had two Prime Ministers, you had at least two Labour police Ministers stand up in this House and reconfirm that the 1,800 were front-line beat officers and sworn officers. They clearly were not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022723ab63c82d94b29bd464f08985eab6a\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: They were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee415cdcd5874e779dee181f17519eb9\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: There was 1,530 that were\u2014no, they\u2019re not. They were not sworn police officers with the power of arrest; 270 of them were authorised officers. And although authorised officers have got an important role to play\u2014I recognise that\u2014albeit in a non-sworn position where they can\u2019t respond to a member of the public that\u2019s putting their hand up to try and deal with an aggravated robbery, with the power of arrest, the point was quite simply this: it was not 1,800 front-line police officers. The Police Association has come out, as recently as today, and reinforced that and supported us in that position as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI want to come back to the time off in lieu (TOIL) and leave\u2014and the Minister needs to be very clear about this. Is the Minister saying that there is going to be no interference or no directive coming out of Police National Headquarters (PNHQ) in terms of how the front-line police officers are choosing to use or take their time off in lieu or annual leave? The issue seems to be this: time off in lieu and annual leave has always had to be managed within the police service\u2014that goes back for as long as the police service has been in existence. But the concern here is: are front-line police officers now going to be dictated to and told by those that sit in PNHQ, when they are to take their leave or when they are to take their time off in lieu?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBy the way, if time off in lieu is becoming such a big problem, why is that? Is that because there\u2019s too much pressure now on the front line and, because they\u2019re dedicated and because they want to provide the service to the communities and the public they serve, they are taking more time off in lieu or they are accruing more annual leave because they\u2019re trying to keep their head above water and they\u2019re trying to support their colleagues on section so that they don\u2019t drop down to a dangerously low number? What is the reason that is driving, now, a focus coming out of PNHQ, whereby they\u2019re saying that there has to be a minimisation of the collection of TOIL and annual leave? I\u2019d like a very clear response to that, thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00227504c2e0cd4e49cb868a702078385e80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227504c2e0cd4e49cb868a702078385e80\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, when I spoke about increasing crime and an increasing budget for Police but a decreasing budget to actually go after crime, one of the things that you had answered in your answer to my question was about the changing priorities of the New Zealand Police. And at the time that we have at the moment, where we do have or are seeing ram raids at a huge amount\u2014an over 500 percent increase\u2014when retail crime is happening, 14 events every hour of every day over a year, we do have to ask whether or not those priorities need to be reset, Minister. Then, with that, we look at the 700 percent increase in youth on the National Gang List, and yet funding for youth services has also decreased at a time when I think that it is critical to policing that we do have money in these areas for police to be able to work solidly on it. So I just wonder, Minister, rather than saying it\u2019s about police looking at their priorities, what are the critical policing areas? Because if it\u2019s just going to be domestic violence\u2014as an example, which is very, very important\u2014but we have a 500\u00A0percent increase in ram raids, then we need to, please, have an explanation as to why we have some areas more critical to others and why we cannot accomplish it all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00228b90f9bc3d2540d2bec80e05e5260805\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b90f9bc3d2540d2bec80e05e5260805\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Just in relation to the member Mark Mitchell\u2019s questioning around this Government, or me in particular, misleading the committee or being deceptive in terms of authorised officers being counted as constabulary staff, I would just like to refer the member to the Policing Act 2008, which was passed under a National Government. It is that 2008 Act which provides for authorised officers. And I would like to highlight the fact that not only did that Act establish authorised officers, it was decided when that Act was passed under that Government, that those authorised officers would be counted as constabulary staff. So I don\u2019t think it is a correct reflection of history to say that that was a new thing under this Government. It is something that was initiated by the National Government in 2008, and that is where authorised officers were not only established but also it was agreed upon that they would be counted as constabulary staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the other point in relation to specific comments around time off in lieu (TOIL), I have covered this before but I will go back to it again. It might help the member Mark Mitchell if I read from the email that was distributed to staff. It\u2019s quite long\u2014I could read the whole thing; I won\u2019t do that. But it says, \u201CManage your budget. Make sure we have good corporate hygiene\u201D. And the points covered under that heading are to limit non-essential activity such as discretionary travel and consumables, approving timesheets in a timely manner, monitoring allowances and only approve when it\u2019s an allocation and not being accrued unnecessarily, managing annual leave balances, and minimising the collection of TOIL to ensure it is being taken within the policy guidelines. And I think that\u2019s the really important part\u2014that the email has encouraged staff to simply abide by the existing policy guidelines. It also reflects that members needed to review the Budget forecast and actually reflect expected cost during the year and to be realistic about what will be spent to monitor and update forecasts on a monthly basis, to manage cost pressures within budget and avoid taking on new costs, and to make sure that credit card monthly returns are being reconciled and submitted within the specified time frames.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question in relation to those priorities raised by the member Nicole McKee, I will need to get the breakdown\u2014I\u2019ll have to come back to you in terms of the youth offending figure that you have. But what I will say is that a lot of that work has actually been expanded with, now, Circuit Breaker. So that programme is specifically targeting youth offending and specifically responding to the increase in ram raids we\u2019ve seen\u2014that started in two places in Auckland. That\u2019s now been expanded to Hamilton and also into Christchurch, and there\u2019s a number of other sites that are currently being looked at. So while that doesn\u2019t sit within the Police budget\u2014it sits within Oranga Tamariki\u2014there is a significant amount of resource that\u2019s going into providing that full wraparound support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI think the success rates we\u2019ve seen out of programmes like Kotahi te Whakaaro and Circuit Breaker are because they take a wh\u0101nau approach. And the problem or, I guess, the fault in the past is quite often that young person was lifted out, given some treatment, and put back into the same unit that maybe was not good for them or maybe was dysfunctional in other ways. But this approach is different\u2014it\u2019s looking at mum, dad, siblings, and all those other factors going on in their life. And, yes, it probably does cost a bit more, and, yes, it probably does take a little bit longer, but it also stops the nine- or the six- or the five-year-old in that wh\u0101nau taking the same pathway as the 12 or\u00A013yearold has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I think that\u2019s a really good use of resource. And I also see it\u2019s a really huge improvement in terms of the way Police and Oranga Tamariki are now working more closely together in that 12\u00A0and\u00A013- and 14-year-old space, where we\u2019re seeing the problem occur the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00226e47c14d84904b3881f8b9612617199c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e47c14d84904b3881f8b9612617199c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d have to assume that, as the police Minister, you\u2019re actually talking to front-line staff, and I think that you\u2019d find their view of Oranga Tamariki and the way that the two agencies\u2014or certainly the Police\u2014are supported is quite different from the one that you\u2019re putting forward in this Chamber today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is this: is she, in the Chamber today, standing and saying that it is business as usual; that there is not going to be any impact on front-line staff in terms of the loss of back-office support that will have to go somewhere; that there is going to be no change in terms of time off in lieu (TOIL) and annual leave, other than the fact that people have been reminded to manage it; and that districts are not going to be impacted with the loss of staff or the failure of filling positions of someone that has left? Is the Minister basically standing and saying that it\u2019s business as usual? Because I don\u2019t even know what the point of this email was to send out to people, other than a reminder that we\u2019re just going to keep doing things the same way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EOr is there going to be changes, and if there are going to be changes, would the Minister please tell us what they are? Because up until this point, with her responses, it\u2019s quite\u2014especially when it comes to TOIL and leave\u2014nothing\u2019s changed. It\u2019s just \u201Cstick with the guidelines, everything\u2019s carrying on as normal.\u201D If that\u2019s the message, then send the message, because this is something that does worry and concern front-line staff. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00225557cc1b4f634ba1bb8155c4af0fb003\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225557cc1b4f634ba1bb8155c4af0fb003\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In answer to Mark Mitchell\u2019s question, I think the email was sent out to prepare front-line staff for not much of a wage increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to get back to my original question: will the Minister be advocating for a 14.5 percent pay increase for police like teachers got this week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccb817865c044f4d8eb5588a7091bfcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccb817865c044f4d8eb5588a7091bfcb\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from my colleagues Mr Mitchell\u2019s and Mr Baillie\u2019s concern for the wellbeing of our front-line officers, I wondered whether the Minister would also like to\u2014we\u2019ve talked about the tactical response model and the changes that that has made to the officers\u2019 sense of safety and security. But I wondered whether she perhaps would like to talk to us about the tools\u2014the increased tools\u2014that we have given the police under legislation which she has been so much involved in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002218754b17a32a4610827469d9323a221f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218754b17a32a4610827469d9323a221f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Look, thank you for the question, Mr Baillie. I can\u2019t get ahead of Cabinet. I appreciate your interest and advocacy, but I\u2019m afraid in matters of pay negotiations, I\u2019m not going to make a comment now. Those will have to go through a formal process and a Cabinet decision. I wouldn\u2019t be able to pre-empt that, so I can\u2019t give you the answer that you\u2019re looking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the increased tools, there\u2019s been some great increase of tools. The Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill is one that was put through this year, and, and that\u2019s already being utilised. We\u2019ve seen in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki that that\u2019s been really useful in terms of that 14-day new warrant when there\u2019s intergang conflict, being able to search specifically vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFront-line police, when I speak to them, told me that what really surprised gang members was that they weren\u2019t expecting their vehicles to be searched, that they\u2019d seen in the past that houses were searched, but they were relying on the fact that they could carry weapons within their vehicles and not have those searched. So that was the element that was utilised in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki that enabled weapons to be seized under those warrants that were granted. And it was, I think, the district commander at the time during that operation who commented that the new legislation was effective and it was used well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe other one that\u2019s going to be really interesting to watch is flipping the onus on the proceeds of crime. I recently got to have a trip to check out all those things that are seized by the group that does all that work and some very high-value vehicles, some very-high value goods are regularly seized as part of that process, and so when those items are sold, that actually puts money back into some really good community initiatives that are then able to prevent crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo what the change in the legislation will mean\u2014and those working in those positions that take on that work are really looking forward to\u2014is the onus changing. So instead of it being incumbent on police to demonstrate that a gold-plated Harley was illicitly or illegally obtained and having to go through the extensive work and use forensic accountants to be able to identify that that was not legally obtained, instead the onus will now be on the accused to demonstrate how they got that high-value item legally, and if they are unable to demonstrate that, then that item is able to be restrained under the proceeds of crime Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m looking forward to, hopefully, seeing a whole lot more organised crime assets and money coming into that account so that we can continue to fund some really excellent community initiatives, including a lot of the youth programmes that we see going on. I think it\u2019s a good example of a smart way of operating to take money off gangs and target it into areas, in particular, to discourage young people from ever wanting to join those gangs in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00221434a7b497604bf2a31a32aeb142035c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221434a7b497604bf2a31a32aeb142035c\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I want to refer to a statement that was made by the member Emily Henderson in the opening remarks, where she made the statement that Police had said most firearms that are found by criminals have come from the licensed firearmsowning community. That\u2019s something that this side of the House absolutely disputes. We don\u2019t believe that most of the firearms found by criminals come from there, and have seen no evidence presented at all that actually stacks up with that claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I\u2019m asking what part of the firearms budget for New Zealand Police will be looking at the illegal importation of firearms to New Zealand; perhaps the illegal manufacturing such as 3D printing? Also, I wonder what the Minister\u2019s aspirations are for criminals to be able to register their firearms in the new firearms authority\u2019s registry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022f24d5bd002fd442d855544fa9dabe0ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f24d5bd002fd442d855544fa9dabe0ba\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m hoping that the Minister will stand and take a call and let us know that this email here talking about cuts in time off in lieu and leave is something that we shouldn\u2019t be worried about; it\u2019s just a Clayton\u2019s report and it\u2019s just business as usual. So I\u2019m hoping that she will get up and she will reconfirm that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn terms of numbers, what is the police Minister\u2019s plan now with the additional numbers\u2014and, by the way, most front-line police officers\u2019 eyes glaze over when they hear us debating in this place about additional numbers; they don\u2019t feel like they\u2019ve been reinforced at all. I was recently in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki meeting with the mayor there, David Moore. \u014Cp\u014Dtiki is meant to have\u2014or he\u2019s telling me\u2014a full strength of 15, and they have got seven. There\u2019s 68 stations around the country that have lost police officers and there\u2019s over 100 that have had no additional numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo rather than sending emails out from Police National Headquarters (PNHQ) saying we\u2019re going to have to cut numbers\u2014and by the way, I hope that when that email comes out, there\u2019s a clear focus on cutting numbers at PNHQ and not the districts. Again, I\u2019ve asked the Minister to stand and actually give us a sense of confidence that the districts are not going to be impacted by the fiscal restraints that are supposedly being applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut what is her answer to the fact that you\u2019ve got the Police Association president\u2014who\u2019s pretty well in touch with the front-line members\u2014saying they\u2019ve been overwhelmed when her only response in this House when asked, \u201CDo Kiwis feel safer?\u201D is to say, \u201CYes, they should feel safer because we have delivered additional officers.\u201D when clearly Kiwis don\u2019t feel safer, by her own admission? What is the plan now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022053cf3a92515471a8ca8268390d36c46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022053cf3a92515471a8ca8268390d36c46\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Briefly, before I begin, my comment regarding the passage of firearms to offenders through the hands of licensed buyers was straight from the report, which, of course, my friend across the way actually sat on and approved. It was advice given to us by the police, who said that unlicensed offenders usually get their firearms which have passed at some point through licensed buyers\u2014and thus through the hands of people who are licensed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EBut my question to the Minister is actually about when we are looking at the 1,800 more police officers that we have now and looking toward the future. Where is she looking for the police to be interested in terms of the increasing of diversity? Is that still something that she is concerned with? I\u2019d also actually like to hear more\u2014and I think this is probably my primary thing\u2014about the impact of Circuit Breaker compared to other initiatives such as, oh, I don\u2019t know, boot camps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022366a2d895e064eac815e3c1ec588123e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022366a2d895e064eac815e3c1ec588123e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Thank you to the member. In relation to the firearms question, the value of having the registry and having a map of where all firearms are in New Zealand will take five years to establish. But we will have a better picture on if there is a burglary and a weapon is taken and if someone is purchasing a weapon legally and then passing it on illegally. While we can do that a bit now, when we have the full map and the full picture, that will enable faster tracing of a weapon that\u2019s been used in an illegal setting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EMy hope is that now that that targeting will be risk based, the lives of those law-abiding legal hunters, recreational firearms users\u2014those who present as having a low risk to the community\u2014are made, I really hope, easier and smoother. If you\u2019ve had a licence for 10\u00A0years and you\u2019re good with a gun, then you should be low-risk and not treated. It is in those instances that touch on family violence or other issues that are raising flags for police that that information will be able to be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of importing, I\u2019d need to get some additional information. But, from my understanding, police do work really closely with customs and are using intel they receive to identify people who are illegally bringing weapons into New Zealand. I know that there is always, in terms of national intelligence and in terms of what the NIC does\u2014the National Intelligence Centre within police\u2014there\u2019s always more work being done to identify risks such as 3D printing, where that technology is evolving, and identifying potential risks that police need to be staying abreast of here in New Zealand. So just the fact that we are establishing a firearms registry does not detract from the fact that there is always good police work going on to identify particular risks within the community and to be able to put in place ways of preventing those from causing harm within our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll go back to the email again. I feel like I\u2019ve read out the email, Mr Mitchell, and then you asked me: what does it mean? Well, I read it. So if I read it and you still don\u2019t know what it means, I don\u2019t know what else to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226729a72e99d748b6ac1282a58f73281c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: No, you didn\u2019t read the whole email; you read part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228884e2c7ef2145c6a967ac2c5ca2a8ee\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I did read the email out. So just to reiterate, the email sent by the deputy commissioner does not mean cuts to districts; does not mean cuts to the front line. I\u2019ve said that five times now. I\u2019m happy to say it again\u2014and if you ask the question again, I\u2019ll even say it again if you want me to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo in terms of the point made in relation to police losing numbers, every single police district in New Zealand has received additional police staff as a result of the 1,800 additional police that are now on the front line. That means that we do have more police in districts. If the member wants to\u2014as I think he\u2019s hinting at\u2014break it down by station, we do have new hubs like in Auckland where you have Eagle, where you have tactical being run out of there. So if he wants to make sure that those districts\u2014it is up for the district commander and the area commander where they wish to deploy to demand. They have been given additional staff, and it is for those front-line officers to be able to determine where best placed their staff are put. That is not a call for the Minister of Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of Circuit Breaker, 80 percent is the mark, which is an interesting mark for Circuit Breaker, and also Kotahi te Whakaaro. So that 80 percent is roughly the number that do not reoffend. Those youth offenders who have been involved in crimes such as ram raids, when they go through those programmes, the indicators demonstrate that approximately 80 percent of those are not reoffending. It depends on the age group, but we\u2019ve seen between about 72 and 80 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFlip the number if you\u2019re looking at boot camps\u2014about 80 percent do reoffend. I think that was even picked up on by the Chief Science Advisor appointed under the previous National Government. Peter Gluckman actually highlighted the fact that boot camps really don\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00225cadba9b2b634e1ebf231703f03c58bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cadba9b2b634e1ebf231703f03c58bf\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Just in relation to the boot camps, it amazes me that I cannot find one Labour member\u2014and I challenge the Minister, because I don\u2019t think she has either. It\u2019s deeply insulting to our defence personnel, to our police mentors, to our Ministry of Social Development (MSD) staff, to the community organisations that are supporting and running our Limited Service Volunteers (LSV) programme out of Whenuapai, Trentham, and Burnham, and who take young people from 17 through into their 20s that have been in trouble with the law\u2014sometimes they\u2019ve been in jail. They get an eight-week intensive programme, and they\u2019re running on a 70 percent success rate. So who\u2019s challenging that on the other side?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022692934e3e0c2418a9a9ac05b3ec08820\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a boot camp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b939a5ee8d8e4151897a63514dac7e8f\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Because I would invite them\u2014Marja Lubeck; no surprise. Go along to the LSV. Front up to the LSV and actually\u2014they\u2019re all shaking their heads. You of all people should know how successful this programme is. \u2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224091ec2d80ea4b638288d0f8cfc0a7f6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a boot camp. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614139b18e15455ba418cdb099fc234a\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s not a boot camp? Well, that\u2019s your term. You\u2019re the one that uses \u201Cboot camp\u201D. It\u2019s a military academy to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e70b55fd42c74676b179e666a67764e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, Mr Mitchell; I don\u2019t use any term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abb4c536d3b44f7d901e6e477452fd49\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Chair. This is the ignorance: they just fired back at us, \u201CIt\u2019s not a boot camp.\u201D You\u2019re right. It\u2019s not a boot camp; it\u2019s a military academy. So thank you very much to the Labour member that just highlighted the fact that it\u2019s not a boot camp; it\u2019s the LSV programme and it works. And I want to challenge\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd6c40ac15634286bee410a72194cd4b\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Tell you what; that whole back row\u2019s all gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216ab419c911b478dbeafa02d2e8cdafe\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I totally agree with you, Mr Brownlee. It just shows the absolute ignorance that\u2019s generated from the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I would ask you\u2014I would make a genuine plea to you: go along and visit the LSV programme\u2014the Limited Service Volunteers programme that\u2019s run out of Whenuapai and Trentham and in Burnham. I\u2019d like you to go and meet the soldiers, the men and women of our Defence Force that run that. I\u2019d like you to meet with our police mentors. I\u2019d like you to meet with the MSD staff that are deeply passionate about it and who are delivering the 70 percent success rate. Then I\u2019d like you to come back to this House\u2014all of you\u2014and say that it doesn\u2019t work and the work that they\u2019ve been doing for the last 14 years is a failure, because it\u2019s not; it\u2019s hugely successful. We believe passionately that it\u2019s the best way to invest in our young people that are off the rails and to prevent them from going into the adult criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EMinister, I\u2019m pleased that you have stood and you have said publicly that the fiscal restraint that has been applied to the police is going to have no negative impact on the districts\u2014they are not going to lose any staff, they are not going to lose any resource, and they\u2019re not going to have Police National Headquarters staff telling their staff how to and when they can take their time off in lieu and their annual leave. Thank you, Minister, for clarifying that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3392aa7af394041a99c2b790d82818f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3392aa7af394041a99c2b790d82818f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d just like to thank the member for that contribution and note that he really backs the Limited Service Volunteers courses, because I just had a quick look, and he might want to look himself, just to bring himself up to speed. But if he googles Limited Service Volunteers courses at Trentham, in 2015 a cut was made under the then National Government, funding from 15 to 1,800 places. It was cut under National, and it was a real loss. So I just would like to point out that if he thought it was such a successful programme, then why was it cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo what the investment has been from this Government is into programmes like Kotahi Te Whakaaro and also like the Circuit Breaker programme, because that happens at the first time that people are presenting, and it\u2019s an intervention that, when the research is backed up, we know that it works. We know that those return rates of young people that go through those courses do turn their lives around and it\u2019s the best way of getting them younger. So I suggest that maybe the reason his own Government cut that course was maybe they read their own research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002242ef3d5381564dad8244d504331a34f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242ef3d5381564dad8244d504331a34f9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s time in the chair has come to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5b3de67473c44d5be6030d88e2cd928\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022f699c3f37808430abefd68dfca6cba5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f699c3f37808430abefd68dfca6cba5f\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a privilege to lead off with a summary of what happened at the Estimates hearing recently held with the Minister of Finance. As is usual, the Minister gave a brief overview of the aims of the Budget and the committee, made of members from different political stripes, asked questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019d note that the system we have in New Zealand in an election year is a pre-election fiscal update gets produced, the Treasury and Inland Revenue do their best to try and forecast what it looks like, and the Minister prepares a Budget based on that information. Of course, since the Budget Policy Statement in December, there have been significant unanticipated costs associated with the weather events that occurred\u2014the Auckland Anniversary Weekend floods and Cyclone Gabrielle\u2014with estimates between $9 billion and $14.5 billion, and those events represent the second-largest natural disaster that New Zealand has ever faced. There was damage to communities, the economy\u2019s productive capacity, and damage to assets like infrastructure, orchards, horticulture and so on. So the Minister told us at the outset of the hearing he needed to pivot, that while recovery and resilience was one of the four priorities of Budget 2023, the focus on recovery needed to be much greater. He said he needed to provide certainty to affected regions for recovery and rebuild and hence there was a billion-dollar cyclone recovery package. He said it was a first response package and it was stitched together through savings and reprioritisation. So a net change of $300 million in the Budget operating allowance compared to the Budget Policy Statement and that was a Budget allowance of $4.8 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EHe also talked about priorities for the cost of living, delivering services to New Zealand that had both short- and long-term policy objectives, especially with the cost of living. He referenced $5\u00A0copayments on the prescription charges; removing those, which would be instant cost relief as well as preventing chronic or more severe ill health due to delayed medication, and he also referenced transport charges. There were references to the resilience theme in some of the Budget allocations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe select committee asked about specific income tax measures. These were ruled out of order. Since then, of course, the Government has proactively released tax papers and there has been considerable water under the bridge regarding taxation in these House debates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EOther members asked whether the Minister could provide better value for money in the context of a 30 percent, long-run average of spending as a percentage of GDP in terms of health, safety, school attendance, education outcomes, and so on. The Minister told us that rebuilding after natural disaster meant trade-offs and hard decisions. He would have liked to have done more, but that would not be fiscally responsible. This was against Treasury forecasts highlighting the Budget priority of fiscal sustainability and a projected return to surplus in the 2025 to 2026 year, which is the same time frame as after the global financial crisis (GFC) and Canterbury quakes. The Minister also said it compared favourably below the 30 percent GDP ceiling and internationally with comparators like Australia, the US, and the UK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMembers asked about value for money, given what one member, according to their maths, described as \u201CA 25 percent increase in costs per head of Government spend over the course of this term.\u201D The Minister spoke about free lunches and the contribution that had to lifting 77,000 children out of poverty on the after-housing cost measure that\u2019s used, that school attendance was improving but there was more work to do, and that measures supporting small business were also important\u2014hence apprenticeships, free trades training, and other initiatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere was a discussion about the increase in taxation as a proportion of the economy and debt ratios. The Minister responded, referencing a 34 percent Government spend after the GFC. He said the level of spend or restraint was a political question and he wasn\u2019t prepared to cut services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere were a number of other discussions and questions about interest costs, about the tax excise projections on the Government\u2019s smoke-free goals, and why New Zealand would not achieve surplus until next year. The Minister said New Zealand had been on track to until the weather events and that had delayed things by about a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere was also discussion about climate change, with the Minister saying that a comprehensive review was under way on the emissions trading scheme to better understand the market in which it operated. The Minister also told us this was the first full Budget that had a fully costed gender analysis done to ensure equity for women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s fair to say it was a feisty meeting. We covered a lot of territory. There was an opportunity for written questions, but none were forthcoming. I\u2019d like to thank the Minister for his appearance and for members\u2019 participation in this important democratic process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022509cd59bf29c4f1b85c565cd3d325ae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022509cd59bf29c4f1b85c565cd3d325ae7\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just to the Minister in the chair\u2014 so I do want to talk a little bit about the disaster funding, etc. But also in the foreign affairs portfolio, there\u2019s a substantial increase due to the climate change funding, and in my own head, those two aren\u2019t disconnected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019ll also want to ask some questions about your tax and tax intentions. I note that the member Ingrid Leary, who just resumed her seat, seems to have gone away from the often-stated position from the Government of \u201CNothing to see here, move on.\u201D to the good old-fashioned \u201CWater under the bridge, don\u2019t worry about it.\u201D But we will be making some effort to discuss that with the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo maybe as a starting point, it would be useful to know how that large increase in Vote Foreign Affairs is expected to be used. It\u2019s a substantial amount that is, essentially, the climate change fund, and I suppose the question is why it\u2019s in that Vote when there are so many potentially pressing climate change issues that might need to be dealt with here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002225029b475f0d4648a28d7942b6d1c340\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225029b475f0d4648a28d7942b6d1c340\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his contribution. He\u2019ll be aware as a longstanding member that the way the Estimates debate works is Vote by Vote, and so specific questions about Vote Foreign Affairs need to be addressed in the Estimates debate in that space. But he did ask the question about why that Vote and why not other Votes, which is quite a clever way of trying to shoehorn it into the finance Minister\u2019s responsibilities, so given that I\u2019m giving him credit for that, I\u2019ll answer that particular bit of the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s right that there is obviously an enormous domestic element to this and an international one, and given his background, the member will be well aware that our Pacific neighbours, in particular, are under enormous stress when it comes to climate change. The additional funding is in Vote Foreign Affairs because that is the appropriate Vote to be able to deliver to those countries, particularly within our region. These matters arise in part to do with New Zealand\u2019s internationally determined contribution, which we take seriously as a Government. That requires significant additional resourcing, and we have decided to target a significant part of that resourcing to the Pacific, hence why it appears in Vote Foreign Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the domestic side of that, I thank the member for the opportunity to mention the National Resilience Plan, which was a new feature of this year\u2019s Budget. That\u2019s a $6\u00A0billion fund, initially, to be able to get New Zealand into a position of greater resilience and to get ahead on issues to do with, particularly, adaptation to the climate events that that member is indicating. When we began working on this idea, it was before the Auckland Anniversary Weekend floods and Cyclone Gabrielle, and we had the idea that this would be an opportunity to get beyond business-as-usual on infrastructure and get ourselves to somewhere where we\u2019re starting to get ahead on the deficit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe truth is\u2014and I said this on Budget day\u2014that the reality now will be that at least the first couple of years of that plan will be dedicated to the rebuild of those regions because there is now so much to do in the form of adaptation and resilience. It is a commitment to build back better in those regions because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa14cdc74af462bbcf4d8815ae0e216\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! Joe Biden\u2019s in the room. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224289786ef5534a33aa7772d4601a3f9c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a slogan that many use, Mr Woodhouse, around the world, but giving it reality means actually putting some resource behind it. So we are working our way through, and the member will be aware of some announcements already made about the kinds of resilience initiatives we\u2019re doing in the transport area, for example, which mean that we don\u2019t just build the road or the bridge back where it was, but we actually look to do it in a way that is more resilient, and similarly with investment in the broader regional recovery plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo while\u2014yes\u2014the member is right that there is a big boost in the Vote Foreign Affairs area in this space, equally, there is a significant lift in funding more broadly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229ba373e35819405cb74db1ea671737e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ba373e35819405cb74db1ea671737e1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E So on that Vote\u2014that very large Vote\u2014which now comes under the whole title of foreign aid, effectively, was his department at all concerned about the $147 million administrative cost for that fund, given that that represents about 20 percent of the foreign aid budget, exclusive of the climate change funding that\u2019s been added to that fund? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e21a3dd1e8c148d3ac27125bd94c1f90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e21a3dd1e8c148d3ac27125bd94c1f90\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E We are now getting into the position where we are debating Vote Foreign Affairs, and that is not the way in which this particular proceeding works. What I can say to the member more generally is that\u2014yes\u2014the Treasury and myself take seriously making sure that administrative costs are kept to a minimum. When it comes to administering large amounts of money in the foreign affairs budget, that\u2019s certainly something that we would expect, but the member does need to take those matters up in the appropriate Estimates debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00226fa89b94a5594989a0c9836fdeb499a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fa89b94a5594989a0c9836fdeb499a4\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. With all due respect to the Minister, he\u2019s responsible for the State\u2019s spending, and I asked a question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af680120c3474948a164ee4dbc14392e\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Ha, ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6a77524f31a4e3d92a4995246179796\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, is he not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022086d22e895224be68cc284c9b6e50a1f\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014the long bow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d0415e000c4bb6840beb16a7c13a4a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5a2f1cef5d4209971f6eb6526b373b\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the long bow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a11cbab6b6184239a6de1690c6f07210\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Shush! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022416c48900f0f4c0aaee6b42eeadc9d6e\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014point of order, Madam Chairperson. Someone should go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be612fc686c94acb826dd8eb0c5b9c32\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Has the member finished his point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e75d0e420848b69344552b4b088ca4\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I haven\u2019t. I haven\u2019t made it yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022289e24db85b2477fac40d3484b99a1cf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014all right. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e77f5d16bdf412f8665f212c32e18a1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been interrupted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022594156fad03947309e154bf6b0cb77b2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019ve\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca8f267193394d5695ecebee24d4ce34\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: May I make the point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9aab9ac00b84c53b0c856f2a68e7413\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f19a23667e404aa47ee682b3676f3d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022746a2fcc849e4c78b2fd25fd511a3cb6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Hon Gerry Brownlee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d70283c663be462bab494006307ce9b1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the point of order is that the Minister is saying to take it up with foreign affairs. The whole Budget is the responsibility of the Minister of Finance, and it seems to me that asking a question like: was his department concerned about the extremely large amount of money that is going to administer a budget\u2014an administrative cost that in any other circumstance would be completely unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec506d74a2724c51b4da31cd76cb077e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec506d74a2724c51b4da31cd76cb077e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. I will take some advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a10b24a77c4146fe99de164f38f70f80\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfa5ac5ede764f40b25cef656ffd52e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ll just deal with this matter, thank you. OK\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca7da88a8b594f49a167a037dabe292e\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229338464b30a74e55b9c6e8633fdad7b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m actually just about to rule on it, and, as you can see, I have taken advice. I am advised that it is in order for any member to ask a Minister any question in the Estimates debate. However, if the Minister advises that that is not their area of expertise, then that is the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022dda32ebdb4884a7f9c976557c9f746ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dda32ebdb4884a7f9c976557c9f746ae\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290d93fd58df849d2b42ccfefa5632b98\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: So Treasury are happy to give it away, but they don\u2019t care where.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a2a07bb5d074efe8e126a4d623bdfd2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member want the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c168468bb7514f8d93429dcee7de7778\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it\u2019s just Mr Brownlee was speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220437bb39a7684408a9e17c1ab839c9d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member want the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9f75cbc6f814cee9ad717bfe37f5ae8\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I was talking to a colleague\u2014sorry, Damien.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9c8b619dea7434c85559b9f822bb5d4\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry\u2014OK. So a quick three questions to the Minister, one around debt servicing, the second one around super, and the third one around funds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ESo in 2017, the Vote Finance debt servicing cost was $3.4 billion. In 2023-24, it\u2019s now $5.8 billion, which is over $3,000 per household. So the taxpayers are paying more than $2.4 billion on interest payments. The operating balance, excluding gains and losses, is expected to record a deficit of $7\u00A0billion in the 2022-23 fiscal year and a deficit of $7.6\u00A0billion in 2023-24. So the first question is: what is the likely debt servicing in future years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EIn 2023-24, there will be $21 billion on payments of New Zealand superannuation. The previous year was $19 billion\u2014an extra $2.1 billion\u2014and before that, New Zealand superannuation costs increased by $1.8 billion. So the cost of superannuation is increasing, and increasing by a huge amount: is setting aside $1.6 billion as a New Zealand Superannuation Fund contribution going to cover the annual increase in future years, and what is the interest paid on the Superannuation Fund in the past two years, and what is the interest being paid by the Government on its debt in the past two years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EI will ignore shovel-ready projects and the loan to Air New Zealand because they are, hopefully, going to get some return. But on the Green Investment Finance Scheme, since 2019, the $500 million was intended to both invest into reducing emissions and invest in a commercial basis. The question is: what are the projected returns on the investment? In 2022, it was 5.89 percent\u2014so was it actually an OK investment in 2022? And on the venture capital fund there was an appropriation of $300\u00A0million, so what has been the return on that fund? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EFinally, from the ACT perspective, the $6 million for the Productivity Commission: has it proved to be worth it in value for money when its reports have veered from a focus on economic productivity to all sorts of fashionable itches that the Labour Government wanted scratched. So those are our questions on the appropriation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002246b37c30c1da4abc96da49a4166b5b80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246b37c30c1da4abc96da49a4166b5b80\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E A veritable potpourri of questions from Mr Smith there, which I will endeavour to cover off. On the cost of borrowing, clearly, the member will be aware that interest rates have been increasing globally and so it is a statement of fact that the cost of New Zealand\u2019s borrowing will have increased. I don\u2019t have the number right there in front of me, but I\u2019m sure I can grab it for the member before we finish up this particular debate. As a percentage of GDP, the cost of borrowing has remained, you know, around 1 percent, a little under 1 percent\u2014it will maybe go a little over that now. In cash terms, obviously it\u2019s significantly higher than it was several years ago, it is a function of the markets and a function of where we\u2019re borrowing our money from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe debate about how much we have borrowed is one the member and I have had before, and I appreciate the fact that we hold different views on that, but from my perspective that borrowing was what New Zealand needed to do to get through COVID, and of course there is a cost for it, and that is the cost that we are now facing. But it is not unreasonably larger than it has been in the past, in terms of the percentage of GDP, particularly in the face of a natural disaster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn the question of the Superannuation Fund, it\u2019s always been the case that the contributions that the Government makes to the Superannuation Fund and the growth of the Superannuation Fund was never going to meet the full costs of superannuation. The ideal has been that it would start paying out in around 2033, and play its part in defraying the costs of superannuation when we have an ageing population. It ultimately does become a policy choice as to whether or not a Government decides that investing the amount of money required in order to keep the current settings of superannuation is a good investment. The Superannuation Fund\u2019s role is to support that, but it\u2019s never been\u2014ever\u2014the idea that that would be sufficient in order to actually pay out, it\u2019s merely to defray those future costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the member\u2019s question around the returns, again I can get the specific number, but it\u2019s outperformed the kind of core Government bond and core portfolios that it measures itself against, and in fact over the years has done significantly better\u2014I\u2019ve got the number around sort of 10 percent growth in my head, but I\u2019ll get the specific number for the member. So yes, the Superannuation Fund continues to be a well performing fund and it continues to be worthwhile for New Zealanders that it\u2019s there, and that it will contribute, in the future, to paying out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe final\u2014oh no, two more. The venture investment fund. Look, I can\u2019t give the member that number, but I can say for sure that it has been investing over a period in a number of quite significant potential growth areas. The nature of venture investment is that not every investment will succeed, and that some of them have quite long runs in terms of being able to get to a point where they\u2019re making big returns. So I\u2019m happy to get some numbers for the member on that. But as a fund, as a concept, we endorse its role in supporting early stage companies and making sure we get ourselves, New Zealand companies, to grow and be productive and profitable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn the question of the Productivity Commission, I note the member\u2019s comments and would say that we did take some decisions when we came into office that we wanted the Productivity Commission to take a broader view. Having read a lot of Productivity Commission reports over the years, we wanted to make sure that we were capturing a broad set of topics around what is productivity. And again, I acknowledge that this is not necessarily something the member and I would agree on, but again, if we\u2019re going to have a wellbeing approach\u2014which we do\u2014then we do need to be analysing other things beyond just really very, very traditional measures of productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I note that a couple of the recent reports have been well received, certainly by the Government and by others outside. One of those was around frontier firms, and actually gave us some very good recommendations that as a Government we\u2019ve been trying to enact\u2014working with New Zealand Trade and Enterprise, but also looking at M\u0101ori businesses, for example, and how they\u2019re going. So those reports, I think, have been useful. We\u2019ve had a more recent one which is more about questions of social mobility which are significant in other parts of productivity, not just kind of that core economic side. So we believe the Productivity Commission still fulfils an important role, but obviously we should continue to monitor that and continue to assure ourselves of that as we go on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00226ed564cdd3f14ea1aa94a8309e324b9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ed564cdd3f14ea1aa94a8309e324b9b\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E This Estimates debate is very well-timed. Today, some very serious reports have emerged about New Zealand\u2019s allegedly rapidly deteriorating financial position. We have been led to understand that the Labour Government is now in financial panic mode; that today, public servant leaders have been belatedly, far too late, told to batten down the hatches and desperately dig up some majorly needed savings in order to cover up a crevasse in the Government books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is a set of Estimates which show us that the books were already teetering on the edge, with net debt having grown from $5.4 billion in 2019 to $71 billion today, with very little to show for it. We knew that surplus had been delayed until 2026, we knew the credit rating agencies were watching us carefully, and, yet, the finance Minister\u2019s refrain has been: \u201CEvery dollar is well spoken for.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAgain and again, while we on the side of the House have said, \u201CLook, the house is burning. Inflation is running at record levels, and yet still you spray that money hose around. You are spending with wild abandon, show some restraint.\u201D The finance Minister has neglected to bring in any fiscal rectitude and claimed that all of his spending is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EYet today, we are told public servant heads have been told that the situation has become so desperate that now he is finally reaching for restraint and has finally, far too late, demanded that they offer up savings or else the hole will be too large and all of us will be at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo my question is a very simple one, Minister. This is your opportunity to front-up in Parliament and to come clean about just how much worse New Zealand\u2019s financial position is today, than at the time your Budget was published. This is vital information in the public interest, and I would ask that you front-up about exactly what\u2019s going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002274d7b832bea64219a12df873e2b098cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274d7b832bea64219a12df873e2b098cf\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that was quite the moment, wasn\u2019t it? I want to perhaps take the member back a couple of steps just so we can have a conversation about the Estimates and about the questions that she\u2019s asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe first of those, as the member well knows, in the Estimates and the process of putting the Budget together, the Government sought a savings exercise\u2014a similar exercise to ones that we\u2019ve done in the past, but we definitely put the foot to the floor this time because we are aware that it is important, having had the period of time through COVID where we did need to invest significantly in the New Zealand economy\u2014to support our households and our families and our businesses through COVID\u2014that the time had come for us to be able to say, \u201CWe now need to begin that journey back to a more sustainable fiscal position.\u201D So we clearly made those decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe also, obviously, were faced with the situation around the Cyclone Gabrielle event and the Auckland Anniversary Weekend floods. That also put further pressure on the Government\u2019s books and the Government\u2019s accounts, making that savings exercise that we did during the Budget very important. It gave us around $4 billion worth of savings which we were able to use to offset many of the other expenses that were required in the Budget that we\u2019re talking about here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is obvious to anybody who is following along that the global economy continues to provide challenges to us. Just within the last few weeks, we\u2019ve had the IMF sound a warning about China\u2019s economy and the impact that its slowdown would have. Our exporters will be able to tell you that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo, yes, this is a very challenging environment. I\u2019m not sure quite about the breathless tone\u2014I could point the member to my media release from 5 July this year when we did get an update postBudget of the Government\u2019s accounts, and, as the Member well knows, in that we did see that revenue was not as high as we had hoped or had been forecast by the Treasury at the Budget. I made the comment in that particular media release that we would indeed need to look at tough decisions and trade-offs on Government spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the reality of being in Government. That is the reality of being responsible with the way we manage the Government\u2019s accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo the member, I\u2019m sure, in her past life\u2014in working here in the building\u2014and in her current life, is aware that that needs to be a constant process. We are facing difficult and challenging economic times. We have made savings as we\u2019ve moved through this Budget process. We will need to continue to look, as I said, in July at tough choices and decisions about how we go forward from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the member\u2019s comments, she made a reference to ratings agencies. I do just want to highlight for the member a report that actually came out overnight from Moody\u2019s, which talks again about the fact that they have a stable outlook for the New Zealand economy. It goes through in some considerable depth, actually, around why that is and the fact that they do believe that New Zealand both has the economic strength, also the way in which our governance and our institutions work that are all strong and that all contribute to solid credit ratings for New Zealand, our fiscal strength\u2014all of these things are factors that the ratings agencies take into account. That was produced overnight, reinforcing their view of the stability of our system here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t think the members should scaremonger about what the ratings agencies are doing. I do think the member should acknowledge that throughout the last period we have been looking for savings. During my Budget presentations, I think, across the country, I\u2019ve talked about the need for that, and I believe actually in the Budget document on page\u00A064 we talk about the importance of a fiscal sustainability and effectiveness programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn order to make that happen, it is of course necessary to work with the Public Service to do that, just as we did in arriving at the savings that we have. The members should be very careful about believing everything that she hears on the radio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c12b7bc370a44d9e97681150eae10961\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c12b7bc370a44d9e97681150eae10961\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E How big is the hole that has emerged in the Crown\u2019s books? What, specifically, precipitated the meeting with public heads today? Does the Minister ever take a moment for pause or reflection to think that perhaps last year\u2019s decision to embark on the biggest-spending Budget in New Zealand history, with an operating allowance of $6\u00A0billion, was, in retrospect, rather reckless, given the inflation position and the position that the books are now in? Has he had a moment to think that his late-life discovery, that efficiency and care with public finances should be ongoing, is something that perhaps he should have listened to a little earlier? Wouldn\u2019t it be nice for the finance Minister to give us some honest answers to these questions given the alternative is that New Zealanders will have to wait until September to find out what\u2019s really going on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7dd627eeeec4cfca18a43b261b43d61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7dd627eeeec4cfca18a43b261b43d61\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E As the member well knows, and as I said in my answer to her just a few moments ago, we have been driving for savings and efficiencies across all the Budgets that we\u2019ve done, and, in this Budget, we had $4 billion of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is, of course, important to keep doing that. That\u2019s why on Budget day, when we released the documents, we talked about a fiscal sustainability and effectiveness programme. We have to keep doing that if we are going to meet the fiscal goals that the Government has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is important to me also to note that ongoing conversations of the public sector are an integral part of being the Minister of Finance. They occur regularly. Those sorts of meetings are significant and important to making sure that the Public Service understands what the Government wants from it, and they occur throughout the time that somebody is Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe pre-election fiscal update is Treasury\u2019s update. It will be done when it is done. None of that takes away from the importance of us making sure that we do keep the foot to the floor on finding savings and finding efficiencies in, as I have said numerous times in this House\u2014just about every day in this House\u2014what is a deteriorating economic environment. That is the truth. We saw in the accounts at the end of May that they had not matched with the Treasury\u2019s forecast from earlier in the year. That is the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat I think the problem is here is that the member does not know how she\u2019s going to pay for the promises that she\u2019s making. That\u2019s actually the issue that is at play right now, because the member is sitting here saying, \u201CI haven\u2019t been following along when the Government accounts came out in May. I haven\u2019t been thinking about that. I\u2019ve just been promising things that I cannot pay for.\u201D And so, Madam Chair, that is actually what\u2019s going on right here, right now: the only panic that you are seeing is from the member asking the questions, because she knows that she can\u2019t pay for what she\u2019s promising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022095fa4186a3d4fa8a50eb6c208e6d667\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022095fa4186a3d4fa8a50eb6c208e6d667\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Does the finance Minister think his so-called drive for savings and efficiencies\u2014two words that when used by former finance Minister Bill English or Steven Joyce, he would refer to, in Opposition, as \u201Ccuts\u201D. But does he think that that latter drive for savings and for efficiencies has been sufficient, given\u2014according to the Treasury\u2019s own analysis in this document\u2014every operating allowance, that is Budget, he has ever set for himself he has broken, on average, by $600\u00A0million? Which is to say, he says the year before, \u201CI\u2019ll only spend this much; I promise I will, I will.\u201D, and then he goes on to spend $600 million more. Given those facts, does he really think it\u2019s plausible to say he\u2019s been good at driving savings and efficiency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd850ee8a9044d9aff44e9fedc7d7b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd850ee8a9044d9aff44e9fedc7d7b6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E As I have said, it is a part of what we do when we put Budgets together. The other parts of that includes making sure that we adequately fund public services. The member, in her earlier contribution, referenced the Budget allowance for the previous set of Budgets, not the Estimates we\u2019re debating here. The member well knows that includes multi-year funding\u2014for example, for the health sector but also for the justice sector and natural resources\u2014as we attempt to make sure that we do drive efficiencies by making sure we give people the ability to plan for the long term. That\u2019s just one example of the way in which we have done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe measurement of whether a Government is succeeding or not is in the macro indicators. We have managed, over a long period of time, to ensure that net debt remains one of the lowest in the developed world. We have been able to see that the economy has grown. We have set ourselves fiscal rules and we are aiming to make sure that we achieve those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have faced significant challenges, as I hope the member would recognise, when it comes to, for example, COVID. Pre-COVID, we were able to be in a position where we had surpluses and we were going to move forward from there. Post-COVID, just as the previous Government discovered when it was dealing with a large shock through the global financial crisis, it takes some time to get back to a level of fiscal surplus. Clicking one\u2019s fingers and saying, \u201CWe\u2019re just going to do that.\u201D does mean significant cuts to public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve acknowledged it in the House before, our colleagues from the ACT Party: I might think that their fiscal plan is completely barmy, but at least it\u2019s out there; at least they\u2019ve said how they\u2019re going to do it. It means enormous cuts to public services and provisions of programmes, but at least it\u2019s there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo it is a balance when one is putting a Budget together. Events do occur in between different parts of the Budget process\u2014that is the reality of being in Government. But from my perspective, putting a Budget like this together\u2014the one that\u2019s being debated in the Estimates here right now\u2014requires a careful balance. There are savings in here, they are offsetting some of the cost pressures we\u2019ve got which have been caused by inflation. While inflation does add somewhat to the Government\u2019s income, it also adds to the costs that the Government faces. Those kinds of costs have to be met, and then along comes a cyclone that requires billions of dollars from the Government to actually help communities rebuild and recover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAgain, I haven\u2019t heard much from the Opposition about what they would do there. It would seem they don\u2019t think that there\u2019s any costs there and that they just simply wouldn\u2019t be helping those communities. Well, that\u2019ll be an interesting debate to have over the next few weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002270a69cc6c9e14c33945c33b55abeadab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270a69cc6c9e14c33945c33b55abeadab\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have several questions\u2014and I think things that I would like to see on record, if the Minister will indulge me. First, can I congratulate him for his balanced approach in the Budget and for the maintenance of that low debt that successive Governments have sought to achieve. And indeed, I think actually Labour Governments have a far better track record than other Governments. I do note the irony in the member opposite commenting on ratings agencies, when perhaps her fear is that the ratings might drop to what they were under the last National Government, when this Minister of Finance has actually seen some of those ratings rise. But let\u2019s put that to one side\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d118b16af824294b725b39f3b800768\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the next National Government: it\u2019s on its way!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c8988de12c14ff3b8651a5fa5c0d009\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a long way away, we all hope. The reprioritisation in the Budget: I wonder if the Minister could tell us how much that\u2019s been this time, because I know significant effort went into that reprioritisation exercise and it was larger than\u2014I don\u2019t know, perhaps just about any that I\u2019m familiar with. And could the Minister also confirm that the economy is actually bigger now than it was prior to COVID? Because we\u2019ve had questions about debt servicing, which seem to be ignorant, or not addressing the fact that the economy has grown and therefore that we can continue to invest in infrastructure to address the infrastructure deficit through the effect of having a larger economy\u2014an economy that\u2019s actually grown, as I understand it, under this Government, if the Minister can confirm that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E My final question for him is if he would be willing to elaborate a little bit on the Budget themes and how these were arrived at: the focus on the cost of living, things like the free public transport measures. I guess the public\u2019s familiar with the removal of prescription fees on medicines, and so on. If he could talk a little bit about how he arrived at the themes of the cost of living\u2014public services, maintaining public services and how those will support New Zealanders, and, you know, the services they rely on\u2014and how recovery and resilience was added in. I think that has been touched on a wee bit, but I\u2019d appreciate any further elaboration. And fiscal sustainability and whether fiscal sustainability, in his mind, involves striking a balance there and addressing the infrastructure deficit through continual capital investment? Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8ead1bc7d7e481c9e8fa87752fa28be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8ead1bc7d7e481c9e8fa87752fa28be\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member David Clark for the questions, and I think all of them are on topics of importance, so I\u2019ll try to cover all three of them. On the savings point, as noted, there were $4 billion of savings in reprioritisations across this period\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fee77ebfd704debbfb37ba5c56b5ba2\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: $4 billion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd01ca88a2447bfadfaf3d71655fcc6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, $4 billion. And I do actually want to acknowledge that, and just to give a broad breakdown of where they came from. So $1.5 billion of that was a result of what was started by the previous Prime Minister towards the end of 2022, when she asked Ministers to go away and take another look at what we were doing to make sure that it was necessary, it was being delivered well, and it was a priority for us in the face\u2014as we\u2019ve been discussing previously\u2014of needing both to get our expenditure back down to levels that were more sustainable post-COVID, but also an acknowledgment of the overall deteriorating global economy. As a result of that, around $1.5\u00A0billion of savings were found, the largest component of which was the ending of the clean car and social leasing schemes that were within there. Colleagues will recall the exercise that went through and the new Prime Minister picked that up from the old Prime Minister and carried through that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe then went through, as is done in the March and October baseline updates, which is when on a six-monthly basis, essentially, Government agencies come through and say, \u201CHere\u2019s how we\u2019ve got to with our spending, here\u2019s what we\u2019d like to roll over to the future, here\u2019s what we can bring back to what\u2019s called the centre.\u201D\u2014that represented about $1.1 billion of that, and then another $1.5 billion which we did during the Budget process, where we literally went through each Vote and said, \u201CAre all of these programmes necessary? Can we find ways of saving ourselves money?\u201D, and that was about $1.5 billion. So that brings us to the $4 billion of savings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe answer is 6 percent\u2014a just on 6 percent larger economy than we had until before COVID. The New Zealand economic story in COVID is one that is worth telling, in the sense that it did require a significant investment from the Government to support businesses and households to get through. But as a result of that, we didn\u2019t experience the levels of unemployment that had been expected. And today we saw unemployment at 3.6\u00A0percent, a tick up from where it\u2019s been, but significantly below where it was when we came into Government, and very much below where people thought it would get to. And that\u2019s because of the actions that we took. So, yes, the economy is larger\u2014several sectors have been very challenged through this period of time and it is tough out there for a lot of businesses. It is tough out there for a lot of households, but we have been able to get the economy through at a macro level in a way that I think has been very helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd then briefly, on the themes of the Budget, as the member requested\u2014I mean, quite clearly the cost of living was always going to be one of the main themes in this Budget. What we did was we went looking for things that could support New Zealanders with cost of living pressures, but that would not unnecessarily exacerbate inflation and had other benefits. And so if you think about things like the removal of the $5 prescription charge, that\u2019s an example of where we know that will improve health outcomes. We know that will mean that fewer people will end up presenting, in some cases, to the emergency department. So it removes pressure within the health system while also taking a cost of living pressure off. It\u2019s evidence-based and it remains important to me and in the Budgets that we do. There was a fantastic University of Otago study that identified that about 135,000 New Zealanders weren\u2019t picking up their prescription each year because of the cost; we responded to that with that. So that cost of living theme\u2014and there are many other examples which we don\u2019t have time to go through right now that fitted within that theme as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe did also want to make sure we continue to deliver the public services New Zealanders need. You know, it is absolutely clear that in a high-inflation environment, we need to put more money into our health system, more money into our education system to make sure that we are able to keep up with and employ people and pay people, and so that was clearly a big theme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ERecovery and resilience, as the member has noted: there was a significant investment in making sure the regions of New Zealand could recover from the weather event, but also to make sure that we\u2019re making our economy more resilient, with a big investment in infrastructure, support for skills and training, apprenticeships and so on\u2014the core kind of building blocks of that strong economy. And then the final theme was around fiscal sustainability, because we do need that journey back to those more sustainable levels of spending, and so that\u2019s why the savings programme that we talked about before was so important. So those broad themes were the themes of the Budget. They were the right themes for the Budget that we were dealing with. They are a balanced approach; they are a part of a long-running approach that we\u2019ve had that we support people to get through difficult times, but we also are making sure that we do that in a way that looks after future generations\u2019 financial stability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f50d8b6ab7ab4c1fb848dd0a34e5d807\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f50d8b6ab7ab4c1fb848dd0a34e5d807\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. Thank you. I wanted to ask the Minister if he thinks it\u2019s fair and responsible to be asking New Zealanders and our public services to be making savings, to be scratching around, looking for all opportunities to cut costs, when we\u2019re not asking a few sectors that have had sustained supernormal profits, like the four big banks, to contribute more to New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure. Those companies are only able to make excess profits because of the investments that New Zealanders make collectively in infrastructure and our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt seems not right to me that a few big companies should be allowed to essentially make what even Treasury has dubbed \u201Csupernormal\u201D profits, and not contribute more to our infrastructure and recovery, and support for people during times like the COVID pandemic, or in the wake of severe weather events, which we\u2019re going to see more and more of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d just like him to speak to the fact that he\u2014you know, that if we\u2019re looking for savings, why aren\u2019t we also looking for revenue from private sector areas that are profiteering at the expense of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0b0e2c1f4af46ae809da0a2f87055cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0b0e2c1f4af46ae809da0a2f87055cf\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. As the member will be aware, having seen the Budget proactive release as it\u2019s come out, one of the things we did look at was whether or not there was a case and the need for us to be able to, to use the members language, look at supernormal profits of banks. We did quite an amount of work on that, and I would recommend to people to have a look at the work that was done because it does throw up some interesting issues. The decision was made in the end that we didn\u2019t actually need that money because we could manage the cost of the recovery and the rebuild through the resources of Government, through some reprioritisation, and indeed through using our balance sheet to be able to do some of the long-term rebuilds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EHowever, what did emerge out of that discussion was the need to take a closer look at our banks, and to make sure that we believe that New Zealanders are being treated fairly. That\u2019s why the decision has been made to do the market study, to have the Commerce Commission take a close look at the way banks are treating New Zealanders and their customers, and to whether or not, among other things, their profits are fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is, as I said, in that material some quite interesting studies. The member didn\u2019t use the phrase windfall profits, so I don\u2019t want to put words into her mouth, but the question of whether there was a windfall per se from COVID is, you know, in that documentation, not a proven case. Are the profits of New Zealand banks higher than some comparable jurisdictions? Yes, they are. So, therefore, what is the reason for that? That is most definitely a debatable proposition. But equally, as I\u2019ve said on many occasions, New Zealand banks need to justify to their customers that level of profit. What you see in the documentation that\u2019s been released is, for example, that the revenue that has been brought in by banks through things like bank fees and so forth and so on isn\u2019t that much proportionately higher than other countries. What you do see is that the cost profile of the New Zealand banks are lower than other countries, seeing that much\u2014that higher profit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EDigging into that, understanding why that is, is exactly why we\u2019ve set the inquiry in place. So I absolutely appreciate that the member thinks that the case is done, and that we should simply do that. We believe that we actually do need to do the work properly. We\u2019ve made a start on it in the work that we did during the Budget, but that\u2019s why the case was made for us to do the Commerce Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c540c35fc6354b09b02644aaf750fc92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c540c35fc6354b09b02644aaf750fc92\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E My question for the finance Minister is: does he actually understand what public spending restraint is? Because he has claimed that is something he has required on an ongoing basis, and the figures in this Budget shouldn\u2019t lie. What they show us is that Crown expenses, as a proportion of the economy, have exploded under that finance Minister\u2019s watch from 27.7 percent in 2017 to 33 percent next year. So my first question is: how is that explosion in Government spending consistent with his road to Damascus description of a culture of restraint? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EMy second question is: has he taken pause to reflect that maybe the decision to, as a first gesture, remove the Better Public Service targets which ensured a focus on delivery against patient waiting times, NCEA achievement, and the like, might have been quite a good device given\u2014despite spending literally a billion dollars more every week\u2014last night there were 12 ambulances ramping at Waikato Hospital because it can\u2019t deliver the services needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EMy next question is this: is it actually the case that he has asked for a culture of restraint and it exists, or is it in fact the case that, as I stand here today, the IRD is merrily going on its programme to spend more than $30 million refurbishing and redecorating its offices even while superannuitants go hungry? Isn\u2019t it the case that he\u2019s allowing his Ministers to collectively spend $1.8 billion on consultancy reports just to help prop up all of the information they already get from the additional 14,000 public servants? And isn\u2019t it, in fact, the case that the Minister has quite happily overseen an explosion in Government spending with the smallest results to show for it of any Government in recent history? And could he please, as I say, come back to that first question: what exactly does he understand \u201Crestraint\u201D to be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221925713e34784b9da2a7dfd618070720\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221925713e34784b9da2a7dfd618070720\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to note for the member that in the forecasts\u2014and she was reading off the same page I am in the Budget documents\u2014it would see core Crown expenses peak at around 34.6 percent of GDP. If we took the table just back a little bit further, that\u2019s in here, we would see the impact of both the global financial crisis and the Canterbury earthquakes on the previous Government. And it is what a responsible Government does when something happens: we use the balance sheet to look after New Zealanders; we invest, we make sure that we\u2019re putting the money in where it\u2019s needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI stood in this House and responded to members of the Opposition throughout the COVID period saying, \u201CSpend more.\u201D Do you know what? As we started to get ourselves in a position where the Reserve Bank was getting a bit nervous and wanted to start increasing rates, the Leader of the Opposition\u2014the current Leader of the Opposition\u2014put out a programme to spend vastly more, in the face of that. So it is what a responsible Government does, to invest. We have been careful with the way we\u2019ve done that. We\u2019ve been balanced with the way we have done that, and we have a plan to bring that back down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe kinds of things that the member\u2019s approach would require would be mass cuts in the spending of education and of health and of housing. So the member has to, herself, front up with what it is that gets cut, because it\u2019s not just the expenses that are here; it\u2019s the extra things that the member is proposing\u2014the tax cuts that the member is proposing that have to be paid for somehow. So I stand by the decisions we\u2019ve made, yes, but it\u2019s there in black and white\u2014it\u2019s led to an increase in the percentage, just as it did when the previous Government was doing what it did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe member asked me to comment on things that haven\u2019t got much to do with what\u2019s in here, but her party\u2019s previous Better Public Service targets\u2014I vividly remember one of them around NCEA achievement when they set it and they suddenly realised after they set it that it was actually below where people were currently achieving. So they had to quickly rush back and change it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe danger with those targets, which we saw and I remember raising questions about it in the House, was that it\u2019s the classic kind of \u201Cteach to the test\u201D thing that, actually, you set those targets, you set them in such a way, in some cases, that you can just achieve them without\u2014as I say, in fact you already were there, or you end up with a situation where people end up chasing those targets. We are investing significantly in the resources and the services that we need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen finally, on the question of consultants, you know it is true that pre-COVID we\u2019d managed to get expenditure on consultants and contractors down to I think it was 10\u00A0percent of Government personnel spending, and it\u2019s crept back up. A big chunk of that is to do with the response to COVID. But I do think the member needs to be a little bit careful about who it is who\u2019s going to be planning the roading, and who it is that\u2019s going to be delivering the IT changes that might be needed by a Government, because they\u2019re sectors which are dominated by consultants. Unless the member is proposing to recreate the Ministry of Works\u2014which some members in the House might appreciate to do\u2014that would be one way to do it but in the absence of that, consultancy expenditure is required. We all agree in this House we want to limit that to the greatest extent possible but it sounds like what the member\u2019s telling us is that she isn\u2019t going to have any of that and that will be another cost that the member will need to fund from somewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4013b35bffd4e83bfa4ff2671240c77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4013b35bffd4e83bfa4ff2671240c77\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, first of all, for recognising ACT\u2019s alternative Budget, Minister Robertson. I\u2019m happy to have a lamington and a cup of tea with you tomorrow to share how we constructed that with no cut to front-line services at all. So, you\u2019ve added a new portfolio tonight, which is \u201CMinister of Fiscal Misinformation\u201D. I also can show you how to save $38 billion over four years, if some cross-party decisions could be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EBut now it makes sense to me, because the ex - Deputy Prime Minister\u2014and I\u2019ll ask this question: is it a $20 billion revenue shortfall or is it $10 billion? Because these appropriations, since the Budget, have moved and moved and moved, and now today it\u2019s the first time I\u2019ve heard you ever saying we have a deteriorating economy. Usually when people come here at question time, there\u2019s patsy questions saying, you know, \u201CTell us what reports into the New Zealand economy you\u2019ve got.\u201D, and I think what\u2019s happened now in Cabinet, unless I\u2019m mistaken, is that the Hon Mr Parker came and said, \u201CHouston, we have a problem, and we need more taxes or we\u2019re going to have a massive shortfall in revenue.\u201D, and the Prime Minister\u2019s gone, \u201CHey, don\u2019t worry about it. We\u2019ll use debt.\u201D So we have to prepare ourselves now either for a debt-driven strategy to get us out of this or a revenue shortfall. So the question is: is that $20 billion figure that you said today not accurate, or is it $10 billion? What can we do to help?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ESecondly, with regards to this misconception about ACT cutting services, I\u2019d like that stopped, please, because we just want value for money. We\u2019re not promoting austerity, we\u2019re not promoting anything other than a responsible fiscal attitude. So is that $20 billion figure from the outside world accurate, and will it be adding to the debt servicing cost if there is a shortfall in revenue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00222129d1c459944397bcd6d1db2602b0d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222129d1c459944397bcd6d1db2602b0d9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Because I said I would, I want to go back to the member\u2019s earlier contribution around the returns from the Super Fund. I was nearly right\u2014it was 9.65 percent, so that does compare very well; the average New Zealand Treasury bill return was 3.37. Obviously, returns are volatile over a period of time, but I do think the Super Fund has performed relatively well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of finance costs, if you look across New Zealand\u2019s history, we\u2019ve seen finance costs as high as 6.3 percent of GDP in 1990 and a fairly consistent move around the 11.5\u00A0percent. It did come down under 1 percent in 2021 and 2022 and it\u2019s popped back up again, and according to the Treasury\u2019s estimates, out to the end of the forecast period it\u2019ll be about 1.8 percent of GDP. So I accept the fact that the raw numbers have increased, but I just wanted the member to have those percentages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of what he\u2019s saying here, I just do want to repeat\u2014and I\u2019ve already done this for the member Nicola Willis, but when the Crown accounts came out in July, I made it clear at that time that those numbers were not what had been predicted in the Budget in May. Now, the Treasury do their forecasts; they do those independently of the Government. They finalise them somewhat in advance of the Budget, but, you know, not miles in advance of the Budget. By the time we got the Crown accounts for the month ending 31 May in July, there had been a deterioration, and I said\u2014I said it at that time, and I have said it a number of other times\u2014it\u2019s the reason why we do need to continue to be careful, prudent, balanced, look for the things that we can do more efficiently and where we can find savings. So that is the situation that we\u2019re in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t want to prick the member\u2019s fantasy bubble that he has in his head about what might or might not have happened at Cabinet with Minister Parker, but suffice to say the documentation that\u2019s been released would show to the member that what was being considered was a tax switch\u2014nothing to do with just creating extra revenue; it was revenue that was coming in and then going out. So the member is not accurate in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhere we end up will be the subject of the Treasury\u2019s forecast at the pre-election fiscal update. Everybody will get to see those, everybody will be able to make their own decisions about that and their own judgments about that, but it fits within a framework where all political parties will have to say how they\u2019re able to pay for what they do. I don\u2019t want to get into an elongated debate tonight with the member about the ACT Party\u2019s alternative Budget, but I think even he would have to concede that some of the things in it would mean that services, things the Government currently does, wouldn\u2019t be done anymore. That\u2019s actually kind of part of what the member is proposing. I don\u2019t agree with those, but as I said, the ACT Party\u2019s at least had a decent go at working out what cuts they will need to make to fund the things that they believe are important for New Zealanders. We\u2019re never going to agree on that, but a cup of tea with the member before he leaves this place would be a very pleasant occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9fa431adb584718beadc1659401fa75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9fa431adb584718beadc1659401fa75\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to ask the finance Minister about the fiscal bomb that went off today, the little land mine in the Budget. There are a lot, I\u2019m told, and that was the one relating to the teacher pay settlement. How is it that the Government so under-provisioned the funding available in this Budget for the teacher pay settlement that, today, we are told that the finance Minister has resorted to raiding future Budgets in order to fund a settlement that should have happened last year? How is it that so much money has gone into backroom bureaucracy and wasteful money that the finance Minister hadn\u2019t provisioned enough for a decent teacher pay settlement? And would he care to explain to this committee why it is only today that the education Minister saw fit to say, \u201COh, well, look, you know, there\u2019s $300 or $400 million worth of savings we can find overnight down the back of the Ministry of Education\u2019s couch.\u201D So wasteful are they that it\u2019s just that easy to find it. And where exactly does the Minister think the sacrifice will come in relation to the rating of future Budgets that has had to go on to fund that settlement? Could he outline for us his thoughts on that? And could he rule out for the committee that there aren\u2019t any other ticking time bombs in this Budget that will go off the way the teacher settlement one did today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f75d6d83e7a248a2842936535bebc81e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f75d6d83e7a248a2842936535bebc81e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E So, to answer the member\u2019s question about the arbitration process delivered to the Government and the need to find about another $660 million, around $3 billion had been provisioned for the teacher and principal bargaining. I think that was a reasonable provision at the beginning of that exercise, and we continued to monitor where it was. It\u2019s a negotiation. So we continued to negotiate in good faith, but we reached a point\u2014and this I think is a very interesting question for the member\u2014where we, along with parents, students, and teachers themselves, felt like we were at an impasse. I did not want to see another day of children\u2019s education lost. Through COVID, we had seen enough disruption\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe1df598459948139c98c9b22c9b4d61\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: You locked down Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b2cbe9682b14080b54e00271b8ff296\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Ho! There it is, the great, ultimate revisionist history from the National Party! Suddenly the lockdowns were wrong. All the hindsight starts coming out now, doesn\u2019t it? Well, here\u2019s the thing: what we have managed to deliver in terms of teacher pay vastly\u2014vastly\u2014outsizes what the National Party did over 9 years. Once again, we are making up for the failure of the National Government to invest properly in our education system and to invest properly in our teachers. What I said when I met with teachers was that the offer that was on the table was the extent of the money that we had. So, therefore, arbitration happens, and we have to go and find more. And we did. We went, and we went back, and there are things now that won\u2019t happen that had been set to happen\u2014some of those around what\u2019s called the bank staffing hours that schools are able to draw on; some of that is around further work on the public-private partnerships that we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b28800854934dbd814e598723f0d33e\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Taking from the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237b3d2d439214952917fbc5e23b266f8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all, because that\u2019s the point. The front line are the teachers. And, once again, what we\u2019re hearing from Nicola Willis is, \u201CDon\u2019t care about them, don\u2019t care about the parents, don\u2019t care about education.\u201D That\u2019s the record of National. Today, we have managed to find ourselves in a position where we can do this. It will cause some issues in the broader delivery of our education sector. Some of that means the Ministry of Education will have to cut back, and some of it, yes, comes from looking at Budget 2024. In every Budget there is an allocation for cost pressures into the future, and we have said this is the priority for that\u2014in education. This will lead to some tough conversations at Budget 2024, but the judgment we have made that our kids getting into the classroom, learning, and having teachers who are paid well and paid properly is the priority\u2014clearly not for the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2266751dcf74bcdaf68b3d7b11199bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2266751dcf74bcdaf68b3d7b11199bd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break, and the House will resume in committee at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfe8f2fbe4694d4d852c5517678dcd4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfe8f2fbe4694d4d852c5517678dcd4c\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity. Minister, I wanted to cover three key areas in regards to building on some of the conversation we had before the break. And in particular the area, firstly, is in regards to the significant increase in Government debt, but more in particular around that, looking at the Crown financing costs of that debt profile\u2014and, as you\u2019ll know, in 2022 per our accounts, we\u2019re looking in the region of $2.8\u00A0billion of finance costs. The actual 2023 forecast goes up to in the region of $6.3 billion and 2024 up to $7.5 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy questions are, in terms of those proportionate costs of Crown finance against total Government expenditure\u2014Government expenditure sitting at around 125 going up to 130, so not a significant increase there, but the finance cost obviously, as a proportion of total cost line, represents in 2024 the fourth largest Government expenditure line, above welfare, health, and education, and then finance, and dwarfing law and order and other underlying issues. So I\u2019m interested, from the finance Minister, in regards to how much of a factor is the, in effect, $4.5 billion difference in interest costs between 2022 and 2023 in regards to dealing with what is in effect this growing fiscal hole, and the considerations around what role the Minister foresees that playing as we go forward. Because the interest rate environment definitely looks probably more sticky than what it was, you know, even three to six months ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other is in regards to the Climate Emergency Response Fund, and I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s observations in regards to the fact that two of those auctions have subsequently failed\u2014the quite significant, nearly a billion dollar, shortfall in funding in regards to that fund. And I\u2019m interested, from the Minister\u2019s perspective, how he sees that that gap is going to be filled and whether he\u2019s confident the changes announced recently actually are going to be orders required in order to provide certainty there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnd the last aspect is around the climate adaptation and the fiscal consequences on the Crown balance sheet in regards to this liability\u2014and the Minister\u2019s observations in regards to the fact that in reality we have absence of a clear framework for decision making in regards to compensation for loss, or at least a mechanism that I think we should have. Particularly to deal with not only the shortterm implications, which we are dealing with post Auckland floods and other aspects, but, if we think about the fiscal liability on the Crown\u2019s balance sheet in the next five, 10, 15 years from now, how and what are the mechanisms that we\u2019re going to have in play in order to be able to determine and drive the capital decision-making required in regards to that? But also I think, more importantly, where is the line drawn between the compensation for loss conversation, and on what side of the line does central government sit on that versus local government and, of course, other players in the market? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002282b1483d090f48debd8fc479a1a05b35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282b1483d090f48debd8fc479a1a05b35\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E As the member noted, we did cover a little bit of ground around the question of finance costs earlier on, before the dinner break. But just to reiterate, the member\u2019s correct in terms of the levels of core Crown finance costs and where they go, where they are, and where they are projected to go. Obviously, there\u2019s a very significant lift in there, and, as we discussed before the dinner break, we are in a period of particularly high interest rates, and that is across the world and that\u2019s bearing out in the finance costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I did note before the dinner break, where we are in terms of the 2023 final projected number, forecast number, it\u2019s 1.6 percent of GDP. I can at random pick out other years where it\u2019s been at that level, 2002 being one of those. As I say, we had it around that 1\u00A0percent level running into COVID. And, unfortunately, the high global interest rate environment means it does pick up. According to the Treasury\u2019s forecast, that is to 1.8\u00A0percent of GDP. So it\u2019s a much higher number or much higher percentage and much higher number than it has been, but it is reflective of the borrowing that was done during the COVID period. As, again, we\u2019ve discussed a number of times in the House and at the committee, that was necessary, it was an important part of getting New Zealanders through, but now we do have to do as we always knew we would do, and manage the costs of that whilst also looking long term to steady our level of debt and bring it down as well. So it is what it is. It is where we are, and those are the numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn the Climate Emergency Response Fund, the member is right to pick out some of the volatility of the carbon price. I used his question to quickly google up where it had got to by the end of today. It\u2019s just sitting a little under $60 now. It had been up above $65, I think, even on Wednesday of last week, and it\u2019s settling just around that $60 mark, as a result, largely, as the member points out, of the announcements that the Government made in response to the decisions of the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc01992f77c4dd481dd37889da7582c\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Which is that, the Government of Argentina?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3ccb347a45b4852902c01ab670c0ed7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a market mechanism. I know Mr Court\u2019s a big fan of those and therefore that is what will dictate what will be available in terms of the Climate Emergency Response Fund. What we did in the Budget that we\u2019re dealing with here, in these Estimates, is top up the fund somewhat, because we did recognise that on the projections we would need to do that. It\u2019s important for us that we continue with the climate action that\u2019s needed and the investments that we need to make to reduce emissions and develop that more sustainable economy. But I\u2019m confident, given where we are now, that we will come back and we will have further resources in there on top of the $1.5 billion that was left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI think the member\u2019s last question is a really interesting one, around adaptation and the costs of adaptation, and I would be the first to say\u2014and I\u2019ve said a number of times publicly, particularly in the wake of Cyclone Gabrielle\u2014that I think the ad hoc approach that we\u2019ve been, effectively, forced into now is not good. I think as a country we do need a framework that can give people much more certainty that can be rolled out much quicker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd I think it would be fair to say\u2014and this is not a criticism of any political party at all\u2014that there\u2019s been a lot of attention around mitigation of climate emissions reductions, which there should be, but not so much on adaptation. And when I met\u2014myself and James Shaw\u2014with our Australian equivalents earlier in June, this was one of the topics we had, because they similarly were saying, \u201CWe don\u2019t know that we\u2019ve got the metrics. We don\u2019t think we\u2019ve got the framework, the measurement, the common language even to talk about adaptation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Government has the national adaptation plan, which is out there and everybody can see it, and the adaptation Act that will be coming through the system shortly; they\u2019ll provide some of that framework. But when it gets to the crunch of what happens when people do need to leave where they live or there needs to be significant investment in creating a situation where they can stay there\u2014flood protection, stop banks, etc., etc.\u2014how do we resource that well and adequately? I believe that is a challenge that future Governments will need to address rapidly. And certainly we\u2019ve been giving some thought to that and what that might look like as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not reflected in these Estimates. What\u2019s reflected here is the National Resilience Plan\u2014the $6\u00A0billion we put aside to look at creating a more resilient and adaptive infrastructure. Most of the first couple of years of that will now be spent looking out and rebuilding for those who\u2019ve been affected. But I think it\u2019s an area where I\u2019d like to see some cross-party work over time, because it\u2019s definitely a long-term issue for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002208d49e43bb8740b1abb48c190bca38c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208d49e43bb8740b1abb48c190bca38c3\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E There has been growing speculation about just how bad the financial situation is for New Zealand, and that is emerging in these Crown accounts. In these Budget documents we are discussing, after six years of deficit, it is forecast that New Zealand would, under this Labour Government, return to a wafer-thin surplus in 2026. My question is very specific: does the Minister have reason to believe that surplus date is now in doubt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002221be95f65cc14f6e8cdd812e531600a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221be95f65cc14f6e8cdd812e531600a4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The ability to know that will only come when the pre-election fiscal update (PREFU) is produced. As the member knows, that pre-election fiscal update is the Treasury\u2019s document, and they will produce that and we\u2019ll all be able to make our judgments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat we were discussing earlier, before the dinner break, is that anyone who\u2019s been taking notice of the Government\u2019s accounts as they\u2019ve been released in recent times will notice that the revenue forecasts that are in this Budget haven\u2019t been met in the Crown accounts to the end of May. On 5\u00A0July, I put out a press release about that exact subject, and noted that the Government\u2019s spending was in fact coming in under what had been forecast but the revenue that the Treasury forecast was also down. So, from the Government\u2019s point of view, when you look at measures like real Government consumption, when we look at the GDP figures or through the monthly account, the Government\u2019s doing its bit to make sure that our spending is being careful and being managed and is in fact under what is forecast. But, unfortunately, in those Crown accounts to the end of May, you saw revenue coming in lower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat Treasury will be doing is working out over time what that looks like, how baked in that is, and so that will be something that, as we come towards PREFU, there will need to be discussions about. From the Government\u2019s perspective, we\u2019ve made really clear that our fiscal rules are that we keep net debt below 30 percent of GDP and that we achieve an operating balance before gains and losses surplus across the forecast period. So that\u2019s what guides me in my consideration of what happens. But as we\u2019ve seen over the course of the last little while, there can be a lot of volatility when it comes to the Government accounts, to the global economic environment\u2014but, as I noted in July, challenging times; and the Government, as it announced at the Budget it would do, needs to keep looking for efficiencies and savings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002273c6165fa7904799b9c142f850e93538\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273c6165fa7904799b9c142f850e93538\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Now that the finance Minister has acknowledged that\u2014I would characterise them as emergency meetings; he may characterise them differently\u2014significant meetings have occurred today with Public Service heads in which they have been asked to find savings, can he please outline for the committee what precipitated those meetings? Is it simply a declining revenue position, which is already known, as the Crown accounts have shown the recession has driven down tax take, or is it also a combination of emerging fiscal risks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EToday, we had one bomb go off, which was that the Government had not provisioned enough funding for the teacher settlement and is now having to raid future Budgets in order to reach that settlement. Is the Minister aware of any other risks of that sort that have now come to pass that have contributed to the need for the meetings today, which we are told are responding to a multibillion-dollar hole in the Government accounts as compared to what was set out in this Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022401c0f535b0741c39cf75c323769abfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022401c0f535b0741c39cf75c323769abfb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The member\u2019s imagination is most definitely getting away on her here. What the Government does and what the Government has said it will do, both at this Budget\u2014and in these Estimates\u2014and in previous ones, is that we will continue to look for savings and efficiencies. We actually outlined\u2014we gave it a name. We said it\u2019s a sustainability and efficiency programme that we wanted to develop. That requires us\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223275551561b54156b3b743ae35b84359\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why don\u2019t you call it KiwiBuild, or \u201CSavingBuild\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228766bcafff964321bf1cb999475da26a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because the member, if she was reading all of the Budget documents and had made it all the way to page 64 of the Budget documents, she would\u2019ve seen it there: the \u201Cfiscal sustainability and effectiveness programme.\u201D That is to drive better value for money; that is to look for how we can be more sustainable. So there will always be ongoing discussions with Public Service chief executives and others about how we do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve already answered the member and referred her back to 5 July, where I was talking about this in response to the May accounts. I repeat again that the Government\u2019s expenditure is actually running under where it was forecast, so we will see where that gets to, but it does behove everybody to be able to be very, very clear about how they\u2019re paying for what they\u2019re committing to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhich brings me to the second part of the member\u2019s question, which we\u2019ve actually already covered in a previous question around the teacher settlement. Just to say that, quite clearly, once one gets into an arbitration process, that means you have to take seriously what happens there. We told the teachers when we met with them that we had exhausted the allocation we had, which is now being utilised, but we prioritised making sure our kids get back into the classroom, making sure that parents have certainty about that, making sure that our teachers actually do get pay increases that will be, I think, very attractive for people. We\u2019re doing that by finding some further savings within the education area and also by looking at the cost pressures that would\u2019ve gone to education in the next Budget. That will make for some challenging discussions in Budget 2024, but we have prioritised that. It is not the hyperbolic way that the member has described it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022adf1f09c6b13409f8792e6a5c9678b69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adf1f09c6b13409f8792e6a5c9678b69\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E So is it the Minister\u2019s position that the savings drive outlined today is simply on par with the incredibly weak efforts that have been driven in the past, and are our public servant heads therefore wrong to interpret that there is, in fact, a stepping up in concern and anxiety about the state of the Crown accounts? Because has the Minister realised he can\u2019t have it both ways? He can\u2019t, on the one hand, say to the Public Service \u201CIt\u2019s really, really bad now, we\u2019ve genuinely spent the cupboard bare\u201D, and then also turn around to this House and say \u201COh look, this is all just in line with what we\u2019ve done previously,\u201D because the efforts previously to deliver any kind of backroom savings have been extremely poor. So which is it? Has something changed, or hasn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9489497e4fc4fe0b2c01ba73aa05b6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9489497e4fc4fe0b2c01ba73aa05b6b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to bring the debate back to the Estimates hearing and some of the questions that were asked in the hearing when we met as the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and just ask about some of the new productive economy initiatives in the Budget, because I think that was one of the things that we covered off in the committee and came away quite impressed with. I think, for the benefit of the House, it would be good to hear a little bit more about some of the funding\u2014all private and personal interests aside\u2014around game development, also around some of the science initiatives, and apprenticeship development, and also the green initiatives in the Budget. I think all of those things point to a higher-value economy in the future\u2014and even Opposition members, I think, in the committee were impressed with some of those initiatives\u2014and they have not been discussed in this debate. I wonder if the Minister would make a contribution on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7194a936eee4771a3b56379a9e6247a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7194a936eee4771a3b56379a9e6247a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Dr Clark, for that question, and noting his acknowledgment of the important role that these initiatives play in creating the kind of economic growth that I think we all want, and that is economic growth that is sustainable, that is low emissions, and that actually does create those high-paying jobs that we\u2019re all after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just quickly highlight a couple of those. The first of those\u2014and we\u2019ve talked about that infrastructure, we talked a little bit about skills in this debate. I do think the investment in the game development sector is a really good example of that, and it\u2019s not coming from nowhere. The member who asked the question may be familiar with the concept of the Centre of Digital Excellence that has been developed in Dunedin. That is starting to bear fruit. We have seen investment across the country in the digital economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat we did in this Budget and in these Estimates is actually step in, particularly to the game development sector. Now, in part, that has been driven by the fact that this is a very competitive sector, and one where, particularly in Australia, subsidies have been provided, and we were at risk of losing some of the talent that we have been developing. So a 20 percent rebate, that\u2019s something that\u2019s been asked for over many years. There were Ministers, previously, who\u2019ve done the work\u2014I know how modest the member is, he wouldn\u2019t want me to mention his role in doing that. I do want to acknowledge Ginny Andersen for her role, however, in doing that work. It\u2019s a really important investment, one that will create and retain jobs here, and a good example of the kind of thing the Government can do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe second one I will briefly mention is around the question of what\u2019s called the\u2014colloquially, the \u201Cscience city\u201D initiative. The three big investments in new multi-research hubs\u2014multi-institution research hubs to bring together the best of our private researchers, our Crown research institutes, our universities, to actually find those opportunities both for big scientific breakthroughs, but also for commercial opportunities. So three of them, one in the area of health, one in the area of oceans and climate, and one in the area of advanced manufacturing nanotechnology\u2014new technologies. Really big opportunities there for us to harness the benefit of all of that work across many parts of our science and innovation sector. So I thank the member for raising that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAlso, referring back to the last intervention from Nicola Willis, I think it\u2019s really important for everybody to remember here that the Government, any Government, relies on the forecasts that are given to it by the Treasury. We have to make sure that we put together Budgets that are in line with those forecasts. That\u2019s exactly what you see here. It is a responsible Government that makes sure that it continues to work towards, as we are, our fiscal rules, and to make sure that we do everything we can to support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve noted three times now for the member, anyone who is paying attention when the May Government accounts came out would have been able to see what was happening there. There is work to be done in response to that, and work to be done to understand what the trend of that looks like. But the problem here is for people who are promising things that they don\u2019t know how to fund. If you\u2019re doing that, and you\u2019re doing that in a situation as we are now with the global economy deteriorating\u2014the IMF concerned about China, issues that are still there for many New Zealand businesses and exporters. If, like the National Party, you don\u2019t know how you\u2019re going to pay for your promises, then these sorts of situations are tricky. For us, and from our point of view, as we did in this Budget, and as we will do into the future, we will carefully balance, we will look at what is there, and we will respond to that in the context of the fiscal rules we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022deab560f17c64bb29fc6c580839ffa7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022deab560f17c64bb29fc6c580839ffa7d\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Have there, Minister, been recent changes in the Crown borrowing programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6b2620d153b49c0a009825068715ad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6b2620d153b49c0a009825068715ad5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Not beyond those that were signalled at the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022801965d07a4e45c68d541b0f440b775f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022801965d07a4e45c68d541b0f440b775f\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, have there been changes in Treasury\u2019s forecasts that have led the Minister to believe that there is a declining fiscal position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022fccff88b2b8f4a5bbf9533d825dd8c5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fccff88b2b8f4a5bbf9533d825dd8c5f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Treasury\u2019s forecasts are updated at the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update, at the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update, and at the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00227a868478117c47c7b83a91b663cfbf9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a868478117c47c7b83a91b663cfbf9e\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Has the Minister received any information or indications in advance of the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update which would lead him to believe the Crown\u2019s fiscal position has deteriorated beyond that updated in the last set of Crown accounts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00222a249721661d46f1aa6a31d2b0485497\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a249721661d46f1aa6a31d2b0485497\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Crown accounts to the end of May have been discussed. They show a picture of the New Zealand economy and a picture of the revenue side of the forecast from Budget that has not kept pace. We all await the next set of those, but the job of the Minister of Finance is to look across the forecast period, to look across the macro-economic indicators, and to do the right thing by the New Zealand economy. From my perspective, we\u2019ve done that by getting the balance right. We will always continue to work towards our fiscal rules while supporting and providing what we need to do. These are challenging times for many New Zealanders, for many households, and indeed for the world as we look at the global economic environment. We need to react and respond to that responsibly and in a balanced way, and that\u2019s what I intend to continue doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00229556d2ad3ba24abca92c2d9712146832\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229556d2ad3ba24abca92c2d9712146832\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E What was the purpose of the meeting with the Public Service Commissioner and Public Service heads today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022197b258795d84f428beda3d8b2549500\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022197b258795d84f428beda3d8b2549500\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t go around talking about every detail of my diary. What I do do, as I\u2019ve done throughout my time as Minister of Finance, is meet regularly with the heads of Public Service agencies to talk about the way in which our programme develops. The member will be well aware that if the Government wants to achieve its goals, it needs the Public Service to be working alongside it, so all the contact that I have with the Public Service is in that context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut I repeat what I said earlier: we do here have a situation where people like the National Party are promising all kinds of things to the electorate with no idea how they are going to pay for them. As a Government, what we are showing is that, actually, our expenditure is coming in under where it has been forecast. There are challenges to the revenue side of the ledger, as outlined in the May accounts. We will continue to monitor that and deal with it, as appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00224b554e896d9249a59270fd732a7dfe2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b554e896d9249a59270fd732a7dfe2d\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Why, when the spending picture has been out of control for several years\u2014as measured by Government expenditure to GDP, as measured by increases in operating allowances, as measured by increases in deficit, as measured by increases in debt\u2014why, against that backdrop, has the finance Minister continued to add spending fuel to the fire, has watched the House burn, and is only now reaching for the savings hose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002295e7e0a4bbc04974a88a3671f1c3194a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295e7e0a4bbc04974a88a3671f1c3194a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The member is just wrong. What we have done consistently, over the Budgets that I have been here, is respond to the circumstances that are in front of us. When we got to Budget 2019, we saw ourselves with a level of debt\u2014using the old measure\u2014around 19 percent of GDP, under the target that we\u2019d set for us. We had the books in surplus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ECOVID came along. Now, the member might want to write that out of history. But quite simply, she can\u2019t. The Government responded; we did what we had to do to get New Zealanders through the situation, and now we\u2019re returning ourselves to a more sustainable fiscal position while balancing that against the needs of public services. I believe that in these Estimates\u2014in the documents in front of us\u2014we have done what we needed to do to keep that balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022c037e7d76bbd4618a87f1c3b3234f59c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c037e7d76bbd4618a87f1c3b3234f59c\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the committee report progress presently and move to consider the Spatial Planning Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223772df5b31254fa086c978061d11391e\u0022\u003ESpatial Planning Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022309601c2d03846529f0fd4d3e0f371a2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000601\u0022\u003E Debate resumed from 1 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221618d0248b4147239f56e9cbad9718c2\u0022\u003EPart 2  Regional spatial strategies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225ee709d9f06a4f73a03628313332aa19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ee709d9f06a4f73a03628313332aa19\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Spatial Planning Bill. When were last considering this bill, we had concluded the debate on Part 1. We now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 12 to 57, \u201CRegional spatial strategies\u201D, and Schedules 3 and 4. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002210b7094554b04b65bd71e3ddcf590fe4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210b7094554b04b65bd71e3ddcf590fe4\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s good to be picking up this committee of the whole House debate again on the Spatial Planning Bill, which is, of course, the second leg of the three-part trifecta of the Government\u2019s proposed plans to reform our resource management legislative regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, the Spatial Planning Bill, effectively, sets out the process by which regional planning committees will be established and also what will be in the regional spatial strategies. Now, that\u2019s Part 2 of this piece of legislation and I want to talk, at this juncture, about subpart 1\u2014clause 12 of the bill on the Table. Clause 12 is quite simple. It says, \u201CEvery region must have regional spatial strategy\u201D. Then clause 12(1) says, \u201CThere must at all times be a regional spatial strategy for each region.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question, initially, to the Minister in the chair is: what happens if there isn\u2019t? What guarantees or what assurances can the Minister give that there will be, at all times, a regional spatial strategy for each region?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00223de794c36e6a462593dc15de729fccca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223de794c36e6a462593dc15de729fccca\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, I\u2019m assuming\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caff59e5a32543b99381d6fe4ebb22ba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We like a voice appeal. Thank you, Mr Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cb687670c7d4070a5c1effdb6d4f36f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you Mr. Chair. I\u2019m assuming the Minister is just gathering her thoughts. Further to that question, Minister, I have a question on clause 14, \u201CGeographical boundaries of regional spatial strategies\u201D. Now, the Minister, the Hon David Parker, has told us that there will be, I understand, 15 regional spatial strategies to replace the potentially 67 district and city council plans and the 12 or so\u2014maybe 14 or so\u2014regional council plans. But the geographical boundaries of regional spatial strategies don\u2019t always line up with some of the other provisions in the bill\u2014in particular, the provisions that apply to the water services entities, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, would you be able to explain for the committee, and for those people who might be listening at home, fascinated about how this will work, where we have a Natural and Built Environment Bill, or Act, assuming it\u2019s enacted, which establishes a national planning framework; and then a Spatial Planning Bill, or Act, which provides for regional spatial strategies; and where all types of other infrastructure providers\u2014transport through the Land Transport Act, water serviced entities, local government\u2014where those regional boundaries don\u2019t align?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, would you please be able to provide us with your understanding about how regional spatial strategies will apply across geographical boundaries where they do not align between different asset operators and different local government areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00226a553f27d533437b9f63e26fa52e3bee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a553f27d533437b9f63e26fa52e3bee\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019ll go first to the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s question. Good to see you\u2019re not sitting next to Stuart Smith tonight! The answer there is, in part, at clause 62, whereby the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022918ac44100864c9c9eac1545a86e9001\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, what was that? Clause 52\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e470770fa2544114b4589b179cce4842\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 62. So the Minister has the powers to direct action. Of course, there are the transitional provisions as well with the three years to have these up and operational, and they can be staggered as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing to Simon Court\u2019s question about the geographical boundaries, he makes the point that the regions that we use for regional government\u2014which are well established in New Zealand\u2014are different from some of the other regions that other parts of central government, in particular, uses. He references the water entities. Also, of course, we see that the making of a spatial plan interacts with a lot of other Government agencies. Of course, the Government policy statement on land transport is one of the documents that is looked at, and that also has differing boundaries from local government, regional council, boundaries. That is something that local government is used to working with central government\u2014having a range of different boundaries for different agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00225a3431db6a6a479eb5af558614f52652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a3431db6a6a479eb5af558614f52652\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I know that my colleague from the ACT Party, Simon Court, will have some questions as a result of the Minister\u2019s answers but I want to turn now to clause 15 because it\u2019s quite a pivotal part of the proposed legislation, which we will, of course, be repealing should we have the opportunity to lead a new Government after the October elections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EHowever, notwithstanding that very real prospect, clause 15 relates to the scope of regional spatial strategies and it\u2019s quite extensive, broad, and comprehensive. So, 15(1) says that a regional spatial strategy must\u2014and I emphasise the word \u201Cmust\u201D\u2014\u201C(a) set the strategic direction for the use, development, protection, restoration, and enhancement of the environment of the region for a time span of not less than 30 years\u201D. That\u2019s an extensive period of time, and the requirement that the spatial strategy must set the strategic direction for the use, development, protection, restoration, and enhancement of the environment is extremely broad. It has the potential\u2014in fact, not only the potential, the reality\u2014of impacting on the private property rights of every single landowner in the country because it will be that broad strategic direction that will, essentially, decide what can be done, where, on what property, and in what time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my initial question to the Minister on this is: what consideration was given by her, as Minister in the chair, and her officials, for the use of those broad-ranging words and descriptions, and why was 30 years nominated as the minimum period of time that a spatial strategy must provide for? Then, following that, what is to stop a regional spatial strategy extending well beyond 30 years? What, say, for instance, a regional planning committee decides that they want to put in place a spatial strategy that might be for 40, 50 or 100 years? Are there any bounds or limits on the upper end of the capacity for such a spatial strategy to extend beyond 30 years? Would that be something where, as Minister, she would consider having to use those discretionary intervention powers that were mentioned in, I think, clause 52, from memory. Would that be the backstop? Would that be the backstop for what could potentially become, in the eyes of some people, an abuse of power and authority in terms of the impact of a regional spatial strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223406cb95339644f8a9a6b38504dea5d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223406cb95339644f8a9a6b38504dea5d3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E So, as the member knows\u2014and I think most members in the House will agree\u2014New Zealand has not been great\u2014all Government stripes\u2014at doing long-term planning for infrastructure, and the idea here is that we are looking at a strategy; it is a strategic direction. It is not a regulatory plan, so it is not the same as the Natural and Built Environment Bill\u2019s plan which, you know, can have an impact on property rights. This is different; this is at the strategic level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe idea of 30 years aligns with a lot of other documents that are required in Government such as the council infrastructure strategies, and in terms of not less than 30 years, if the group thinks that there is a good reason to go for longer than 30 years, then that is a possibility. But, in terms of how wide it is, I\u2019m advised that we should also read it in conjunction with clause 23A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002259f371f801974bed9ce83e7cb3c05eb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259f371f801974bed9ce83e7cb3c05eb0\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just along the lines of those recent regional spatial strategies and the 30-year time frame, I guess it\u2019s reasonable to assume that, within that 30-year time frame, this is a live strategy; so it\u2019s not something that is set on the day that it\u2019s set and nothing could happen to it between that date and the 30-year time frame\u2014it\u2019s a live, moving document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002240f1f58718ab4209a33565ba605913f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240f1f58718ab4209a33565ba605913f5\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly I just want to acknowledge the contribution of Barbara Kuriger. Let\u2019s assume it is a live planning document and that we will need to respond to changes in demand at some point in the future. These things cannot possibly be fixed in stone. But I am speaking on behalf of the Minister, so why don\u2019t I just ask the Minister some basic questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, how is a regional spatial strategy to be developed with regard to a general policy statement (GPS) for land transport when there is no GPS for land transport? Because in November of 2022, the former transport Minister, the Hon Michael Wood\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d132dd9b61c3414bafc584645114b6f5\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242c92d02726d49a193a0985e6cd2b607\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Michael Wood\u2014the Hon Scott Simpson, MP for Coromandel\u2014released a very important document, a general policy statement for land transport that set out some objectives that turned out to be unfeasible. That was to apply the maintenance budget for the years 2024 to 2027 to funding removal of car parks, taking road corridor space allocated to private vehicles, heavy vehicles, and buses and reallocating it to walking and cycling. Now, when that was released as a draft for consultation, local government transport entities like Auckland Transport, all of those regional land transport bodies around the country, councils around the country, said, \u201CYou must be joking, Minister, we can\u2019t work with this. We can\u2019t have you transferring a proportion of the maintenance budget to walking, cycling, and public transport at a time when\u2014Minister, didn\u2019t you see even on the TV news that there are potholes and sinkholes developing all over the country, we have cyclones and floods and storms, we have rockfalls, we have slips degrading the State highway network on a local road network. Minister, if the GPS for land transport tells us to take a whole lot of funding that should go into roading, resilience, maintenance, and operations and put it into walking, cycling and bus lanes, we\u2019re not going to be able to do that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, that GPS has since been binned. Since then, there\u2019s been a change of Prime Minister, a whole bunch of Ministers have been memory holed by the Labour Party. But the GPS on land transport, which should have landed for consultation with local government in the early part of this year\u2014that\u2019s right, crickets. We haven\u2019t seen it. Local government needs a GPS, a general policy statement, for land transport in order to know what funding, what activity classes they\u2019re eligible for from Waka Kotahi\u2014or New Zealand Transport Agency\u2014what they should be budgeting for for the next three years, 2024 to 2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e31e184737a4dbb829c7c6186ad95ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Court, it\u2019s good to use this stuff for context, but don\u2019t let it become the whole speech. Come back to what you\u2019re actually talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221360354b1cb4b3b96941aecc148a47d\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate your direction. So, Minister, in the absence of a GPS for land transport, in the absence of any national direction, how is a region meant to develop a regional spatial strategy that takes account of the transport infrastructure needed to enable growth, to enable communities to develop according to a regional spatial strategy where there is no transport component?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00221cb757f1ed8544d59d8d5d1d13a23153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cb757f1ed8544d59d8d5d1d13a23153\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Going back to Barbara Kuriger\u2019s point about, I guess, how have much of a living document these spatial plans are, of course they can be reviewed and that\u2019s at clause 46A. And then also if we go to clause 23A, which I referred to before in the answer to the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s question, this is the clause which really talks about the evidence that\u2019s needed, and the scale and level of detail that should be appropriate to the issues at hand. So I think those are good, useful sections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to the member Simon Court\u2019s points. In Schedule 3 there are, of course, the different general policy statements that are relevant, but the whole point of this piece of legislation is to get that joined-up thinking between central and local government. The committee can get information from any Government department, and that\u2019s a really important part of this\u2014that information has to be free. And so there are many ways that the committee can get the relevant information and do that strategic thinking for the 30-year period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca274d9ee29c4108bf8426a15ff84f52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca274d9ee29c4108bf8426a15ff84f52\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to come back to clause 15, because the scope and breadth of these spatial strategies is quite incredible, and I don\u2019t know that many people will have quite yet grasped how wide-ranging they are. So we had a little bit of a chat previously about clause 15(1)(a) and the 30-year time span, of these strategies not being less than 30 years, but paragraph (b) of clause 15(1) goes into some detail about the breadth. So these spatial strategies \u201Cmust\u2014(b) provide for the integrated management of the environment, including by providing strategic direction for the instruments in the planning system that are referred to in Section\u00A04\u201D\u2014and we\u2019ve already discussed that\u2014\u201C(c) support the efficient and effective management of the environment; and (d) give effect to the national planning framework to the extent that the framework directs; and (e) otherwise be consistent with the national planning framework\u201D. This requirement to provide for an integrated management of the environment, including by providing strategic direction, is very broad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIt goes on in some detail, right through to paragraph (g), which relates to consistency with water conservation orders, but when we get to clause 16, \u201CGeneral contents and form of regional spatial strategies\u201D, again we find that there is an incredibly wide purview for these strategies to contain: clause 16(1)(a) says that \u201CA regional spatial strategy must\u201D\u2014\u2014and, again, I emphasise the word \u201Cmust\u201D\u2014\u201Cset out a vision and objectives for how to use, develop, protect, restore, and enhance the region\u2019s environment in a way that achieves the purposes of this Act;\u201D. Well, that\u2019s all very fine and dandy, and setting out a vision and setting out objectives is fine in theory, but the question I have is: whose vision and whose objectives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe regional planning committees will have enormous power to, effectively, put their stamp on what the vision and the objectives for the regional spatial strategy in their region are going to be. I contend that what that may mean is that depending on the makeup, the history, the background, and the sort of geography and regional aspects that may differ from region to region, that vision and objectives could be dramatically different in one part of the country to the next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister around the \u201CGeneral contents and form of regional spatial strategies\u201D in clause 16 is: how is the Minister going to provide assurance that these strategies are going to have a nationwide consistency that in practice is going to be largely the same and predictable for citizens, for local government, for business, and for community groups so that they can with some certainty and some surety provide an understanding that what happens in one part of the country is going to be essentially the same as another part of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOr is it that the Minister sees that, actually, there will be very dramatic and wide-ranging differences from one region to another about what is a vision and an objective for how to use, develop, protect, restore, and enhance the region\u2019s environment? I suspect that regions are going to differ from area to area, and I think it\u2019s only fair that New Zealanders can have some degree of certainty about what the broad vision will be, not only for the country but for each region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227d94274af0a548c2adbab355cc5a7c10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d94274af0a548c2adbab355cc5a7c10\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Well, yes, I do not disagree that it is wide at clause 15, and, of course, that is the purpose, that we want the joined-up thinking of these issues in the spatial strategies. I would point the member as well\u2014the first question was: who gets to decide? Of course, at clause 32A there\u2019s wide public consultation, and in terms of consistency throughout the nation, at clause 15(1) it has to \u201C(d) give effect to the national planning framework to the extent that that framework directs;\u201D\u2014so the framework can direct how these are to look\u2014\u201Cand (e) otherwise be consistent with the national planning framework;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00222ea8c0672e9b4c0e9656f9aafbb46331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ea8c0672e9b4c0e9656f9aafbb46331\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E So just carrying on that point\u2014and I thank the Minister for her interactions; it is helpful to this debate. So if we carry on to clause 16 and we get past the \u201Cvision and objectives\u201D and the broad requirement to \u201Cdevelop, protect, restore, and enhance the region\u2019s environment in a way that achieves the purpose of this Act\u201D, and if we then go to clause 16(1)(b), it says \u201Csupport the vision and objectives by applying and otherwise providing for\u2014(i) the key matters listed in section 17\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo if we then flip over to question clause 17, again we have incredibly wide-ranging parameters. So clause 17 says, \u201CThe key matters referred to in section 16(1)(b)(i) are as follows: (a) areas that require or may require protection, restoration, or enhancement:\u201D. Now, again, that\u2019s incredibly wide: \u201Careas that require or may require protection, restoration, or enhancement\u201D. I put it to the Minister, actually, that that\u2019s probably all land\u2014surely, isn\u2019t it that every piece of land in the country at some point is going to \u201Crequire or may require protection, restoration, or enhancement\u201D of some form or other?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIs it the intention of the Minister\u2019s legislation that the key matters that are contained in a regional spatial strategy must actually apply to every square centimetre of New Zealand\u2019s landscape?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dea93b737b044d98f1b4f42efc875fd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could those members just take their conversation a little bit lower? It\u2019s echoing around the Chamber. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220032ec4e2e7f4a9a92b604cbbfb911ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220032ec4e2e7f4a9a92b604cbbfb911ce\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, I\u2019d like to have a conversation about clause 17(1)(jb). So as we went through the bill\u2014and the fact that the cyclones were progressing at the time, there were often times when we looked at each other and thought, \u201CGee, if we knew some of the things we know now we might not have put some of those same things in those places.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo in paragraph (jb) it talks about \u201Cmatters relating to risks arising from natural hazards and the effects of climate change,\u201D. I just would like a comment around this. I mean, I know none of us is ever going to outwit Mother Nature, but if I look at subparagraphs (i), (ii), (iii), and (iv) of paragraph (jb), is this some way of mitigating at least some of those factors that we were confronted with through the committee process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EAnd given that I know that, as late as about 24 hours ago, we were just looking at some, perhaps, options around removing people from where they are and putting them somewhere else, I just wanted a comment around that provision\u2014we can never be 100\u00A0percent foolproof\u2014and get the Minister\u2019s view on how this could enhance that in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002231dba61131204336ab9d01851cc1ce02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231dba61131204336ab9d01851cc1ce02\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E So we\u2019re focused on clause 17 here. To the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s point, I\u2019d say that you read \u201Careas that require or may require protection, restoration, or enhancement\u201D in the context of the legislation and the clause, and, in fact, as Barbara Kuriger has said, there are some more specifics in clause 17 with that hazards section that you\u2019ve just referred to, a climate change one, and also one particularly relating to infrastructure that the select committee worked on as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EYes, to Barbara Kuriger\u2019s question, that is my understanding: that the select committee worked hard on these provisions to report back\u2014to strengthen, really\u2014the natural hazards provision so that we can enable better planning and responsiveness to those natural hazards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00222fe61ffebbbe48ebad5a21b84800de88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fe61ffebbbe48ebad5a21b84800de88\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I just want to come back to clause 15(1)(a), which states that \u201C(1) A regional spatial strategy must\u2014(a) set the strategic direction for use, development, protection, restoration, and enhancement of the environment of the region for a time-span of not less than 30 years\u201D. Minister, I want to focus specifically on use of land for ports, roads, and rail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I think it would be fair to say that any resource consent issued under the Resource Management Act 1991 has required developers of roads, rail, and ports to avoid, remedy, or mitigate adverse effects on the environment. If you drive along any motorway corridor built after 1991, you\u2019ll see restorative planting along the berms on the road corridor. You\u2019ll see stormwater detention ponds designed to receive runoff from the road corridor and to provide for filtering of any hydrocarbon residues or any sediment or any spills that might occur on the road corridor. If you look at any ports that have had to obtain a resource consent since 1991, they have had to address their effects on the environment, tidal flows, existing users of harbours, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EYet this clause would require spatial plans to set the strategic direction for the protection, restoration, and enhancement of the environment in areas which have existing consents. Now, if there\u2019s a port like Port of Auckland, which has been there since Auckland was first established, since our colonial forefathers pulled up their ships on the hard to scrub the barnacles off after a long journey across the Pacific\u2014then the founders of Auckland built wharves and jetties, which were then filled in well beyond the foreshore to create the built environment that we know now. The Port of Auckland, the Viaduct Harbour, Wynyard wharf, Victoria Park even\u2014all infilled land that was the harbour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we have a working port in Auckland, a container terminal which serves about 800,000 containers a year out of the between 3 and 4 million a year that come in out of New Zealand. They handle general cargo that goes to and from the Pacific. They handle bulk cargo, scrap steel, all kinds of materials. They handle roll-on, roll-off ships that deliver trucks, diggers, tractors, every kind of machine on tracks and wheels that comes into Port of Auckland. How on earth is the Port of Auckland, within the strategic direction of a regional spatial strategy, supposed to restore and enhance the environment? They are a port. They have wharves. They have hardstands. They have cranes. Are they seriously expected to be restoring or enhancing the natural environment back to some pre-European or pre-human state? What is this target for the environment they\u2019re supposed to restore and enhance back to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis makes no sense. This shouldn\u2019t be in the bill. This belongs in a different bill, maybe an environmental protection Act, which says if we\u2019re going to have a port, maybe that port should have sediment detention ponds, hydrocarbon interceptors so we don\u2019t get oil spills going to the harbour. But you know what, Minister? They already do. They already do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, would you care to explain how on earth a port which exists because we need the port to do what ports do\u2014and apart from some woolly thinkers, people chasing rainbows or hunting unicorns, no one would ever expect a port to move\u2014is supposed to restore and enhance the land it sits on? This is the crux of this legislation. Nothing is more important. This could be the ultimate flaw in this legislation. Minister, would you care to explain how a port might enhance and restore the environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa9c91dfc568490b8f8932c49767af4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa9c91dfc568490b8f8932c49767af4c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. As I\u2019ve already noted in relation to clause 15(1), we need to read it in context, and also it is a strategic direction, and it\u2019s not saying exactly what needs to happen. I point the member back to, with his examples of ports, roads, and rails, clause 17, \u201CContents of regional spatial strategy: key matters\u201D, and to subclause (1)(h) \u201Crelating to infrastructure including\u2014(iaaa) existing, planned, or potential infrastructure that is or may be required to meet current and future needs:\u201D, and going to his point about the existing port \u201C(i) opportunities to make better use of existing infrastructure\u201D. Those are useful provisions for a piece of legislation that is trying to do integrated long-term management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f135cb8efc474748a3b2d24ce876135b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f135cb8efc474748a3b2d24ce876135b\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Now, Part\u00A02 is actually quite a long part, and there are lots of clauses that take us right through to clause 57, so I\u2019m anticipating that there will be quite a lot of debate yet on the clauses that go beyond 17\u2014which is the one I want to come back to and focus on now. Because this is the really nitty-gritty part of what is going to be included as key matters in a regional spatial strategy. So we\u2019ve already had a talk about the areas of land that may or may not be included, but then we get to clause 17(1)(c), which says, \u201Careas that are appropriate for urban development and change, including existing, planned, or potential urban centres of scale\u201D\u2014so that\u2019s cities\u2014and then paragraph (d) refers to \u201Careas that are appropriate for developing, using, or extracting natural resources, including generating energy:\u201D. So that\u2019s energy, electricity generation, and, of course, mining, mineral extraction as well. And then paragraph (e) covers \u201Careas that are appropriate to be reserved for rural use\u201D\u2014so that\u2019s farming, agriculture, horticulture. And then paragraph (f) relates to \u201Careas of the coastal marine area that are appropriate for development or change in use.\u201D So the marine environment as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThose are very broad-ranging definitions in the regional spatial strategies that are going to define for periods of time of not less than 30 years\u2014but maybe a lot longer than 30 years\u2014where urban development in cities will go, to what extent their boundaries will be moved outward or inward from where those boundaries of urban development are right now; where areas of mining and mineral extraction can occur; where farming, horticultural, and other primary production activity can occur; and what can be done in the marine coastal area and what can\u2019t be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, if we go down to clause 17(h)(iaaa), it says \u201Cexisting, planned, and potential infrastructure that that is or may be required to meet current and future needs:\u201D. So to have the crystal ball that is required, the foresight, the vision, the imagination to know where cities, mineral extraction, farming, marine activity\u2014all those things\u2014are going to be 30 years out, is going to require, I suspect, the wisdom of Solomon, and almost certainly some of that is going to be wrong. Some of it\u2019s not going to be accurate. Some of it\u2019s going to, over the period of that 30 years, be proved to be inappropriate or changed or whatever. And it may be as a result of things like, for instance, the Canterbury earthquakes, where big swathes of what we now know as the red zone around urban Christchurch were prior to the Canterbury earthquakes areas which were considered perfectly suitable and adequate for residential development but are suddenly, because of an intervention or of an act of God like an earthquake, rendered not appropriate for residential urban development any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, notwithstanding the broad depth of the vision and the aspirational goals of this mighty planning for 30 years\u2014and what to include in a spatial strategy\u2014my concern is that there\u2019s going to be an awful lot of crystal ball gazing that may or may not prove accurate. And the reason that the crystal ball gazing is important is because it\u2019s 30 years at a time, maybe longer, and that then has an impact on property values, on human activity, business activity, and commercial activity. And that can have wide-ranging impacts on the lives and wellbeing of citizens up and down the countryside. So I\u2019m interested to know what it is that gives the Minister confidence that the insightful people who will be creating the spatial strategies and then are given a brief to include these key matters that are so broad, so wide, and so important for the wellbeing of individuals\u2014and actually so potentially beneficial or potentially devastating, depending on where lines are drawn and whether key matters are included or not included. How can the Minister be sure that those people are going to have wisdom of Solomon and the ability to look into a crystal ball?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5cde92f5bca48a8bb4fa567086ee3fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5cde92f5bca48a8bb4fa567086ee3fb\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, the point of this legislation is for better long-term planning, and, of course, as I\u2019ve noted in other answers, it can be reviewed where it needs to be. We want integrated planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00228a2dde41245c4bee8624111230c17a73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a2dde41245c4bee8624111230c17a73\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I want to come back to your response to my question about ports and restoring and enhancing the environment. My question is: ports were issued 35-year consents in 1991. These consents will expire under the existing Resource Management Act (RMA) in 2026. Unless these ports are somehow going to be told to suck in their guts, do less porting, limit their decks, take some cranes away, turn some part of their port over into some kind of wetland, maybe a mussel farm, maybe some kind of, I don\u2019t know, cultural centre, how is a port seeking consent under this legislation meant to demonstrate restoration and enhancement of the environment on a 30-year time frame when what they need to be doing is providing for efficiency, potential expansion, occupying more of the seabed, building sea walls and other defences to harden them from climate change and storms? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EHow are they supposed to do these things while demonstrating they\u2019re restoring and enhancing an environment from some unknown time in the past? What is this environment? Are we going back to, say, the 1950s or World War II when half the reclamation was built in Auckland? Are we going back to, I don\u2019t know, pre - World War\u00A0II in Wellington when the Kaiwharawhara fill was under way, and the motorway or the highway into Wellington was being built? What is this time frame that they are intending to go back in time and restore it to, Minister? Because this legislation could potentially set us on a course for good. This legislation could say, \u201CSpatial planning should tell us, based on how many people we assume are coming\u201D\u2014and in Auckland it\u2019s between half a million and a million between now and 2050. We know we\u2019ll have to make so much land available for housing. We know we\u2019ll have to build stormwater treatment ponds. We\u2019ll have to build waste water infrastructure. Oh, and, by the way, we\u2019ll have to upgrade our ports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8cecf1bc2042778454f339558712c7\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Chair, this contribution is repetitive and not related to the part at hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5e2b3d71f5b45c8863397bbd421e9e2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Belich, sit down. That\u2019s the job of the Chair, and please don\u2019t interrupt members mid-speech with similar\u2014it\u2019s the job of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271776414a9d0444589b917ee83a585c7\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to that member, Camilla Belich, for raising this issue that my contribution about ports and how you restore the natural environment of a port back to some unknown state in the past is repetitive, because this matter came up time and time again at select committee\u2014not just ports; organisations, companies that deliver hydroelectricity, that operate dams, railway, roading infrastructure. They said, \u201CHow on earth are we supposed to restore the natural environment back to some unknown state at some unknown time through the Spatial Planning Bill?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s completely the opposite of what the Minister told us his environmental reforms are going to deliver: cheaper, better, faster. It\u2019s the opposite of what the Infrastructure Commission said any reform of the RMA should do\u2014which is reduce the cost of consenting. How on earth is this clause, Minister, meant to help us deliver cheaper, better, faster infrastructure for a port that needs to apply for a consent in 2026 to re-consent a port activity after the RMA has been apparently killed off by this bill? How are they supposed to do that and give confidence to their customers, to the transport sector, to KiwiRail, who might want to build a new rail line or spend hundreds of millions of dollars investing in new hard infrastructure and networks into a port? How are they supposed to give confidence to the stevedores, to the unions, the people who work there, Minister? This works against all of that. Explain it, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00226a17566cb1b94c169d5826fde943acf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a17566cb1b94c169d5826fde943acf2\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It may come as a surprise to some people watching this debate that I actually agree with a lot of what the member Simon Court just said in terms of the importance of our existing infrastructure and that we don\u2019t want to accidentally ruin it and do the various different examples that the member gave. These regional spatial strategies can be useful to things like ports and allow them to have that long-term planning and to avoid the reverse sensitivity that\u2019s been a huge problem under the Resource Management Act. But I would then remind the member that, of course, you\u2019re not getting consents under this Act. This is not the regulatory plan. That is in the natural and built environment plan. And so this clause-by-clause \u201CHow do we get a consent under this particular clause?\u201D is not useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022da33836a30f64313a486fb87d864171e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da33836a30f64313a486fb87d864171e\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We\u2019re moving through Part 2, which extends right through to clause 57, so there\u2019s still a lot to do. I want to turn now to clause 23A, which is relating to the considerations that must be taken into account when preparing regional spatial strategies. Now, clause 23A is headed \u201CGeneral requirements: use and presentation of information\u201D, and it\u2019s on that subject that I want to spend a couple of minutes, if I may.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EClause 23A(1) says \u201CA regional planning committee must ensure that its regional spatial strategy is, (a) as far as practicable, based on robust and reliable evidence and other information,\u201D, and so forth, and then it goes on\u2014and that\u2019s fair enough; I think it would be perfectly logical and safe to assume that, of course, a spatial strategy should be based on robust and reliable evidence. But the question then is, well, what if there isn\u2019t reliable science and robust knowledge and reliable evidence? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThat is kind of answered in clause 23A(2), where it says \u201CThe regional planning committee must not use an uncertainty or inadequacy in the available information as a reason to omit content from its regional spatial strategy if the committee considers that including the content is necessary to achieve the purpose of this Act.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, on one hand, we have clause 23A(1) saying a regional planning committee must \u201C(a) as far as practicable, [base their plan or their strategy] on robust and reliable evidence\u201D. But then it says that they can\u2019t use a lack of evidence or uncertainty or inadequacy to omit content. So we\u2019ve got an area where we\u2019re straddling between robust, evidence-based information that is available versus unknown knowledge, but just a seat-of-the-pants kind of expectation that something should be included. I\u2019m confused about how a regional planning committee has to try and juggle those two conflicting priorities between getting practical-based science, knowledge, and information to base their strategy on versus just a sense or a whim as to what may or may not be included because they don\u2019t have that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThen I want to ask the Minister, subsequent to that, upon whose decision is it made that something is robust or reliable in terms of evidence? Is it the personal views of the members of the regional planning committee? Is it the views of their advisers? If it is the view of their advisers, whose advice do they take? What advice is admissible? What advice isn\u2019t? Who are the arbiters of what is robust and reliable evidence? It\u2019s been my experience in this place and also in life in general that reliable and robust evidence is a bit like beauty; it\u2019s kind of in the eye of the beholder. One person\u2019s robust and reliable evidence can be another person\u2019s conspiracy or rabbit-hole. So I\u2019m keen to know who\u2019s going to make the decision about what is robust and reliable, and in the absence of agreed robust and reliable evidence, how they are going to determine what matters should go into a spatial strategy where there is uncertainty or inadequacy as required under clause\u00A023A(2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9d30849260143c59b24790dd1751b3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9d30849260143c59b24790dd1751b3b\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to have a question around local voice, which was something that was very consistent in the submissions as they came through the Environment Committee. I want to go from clause 23A(6), and then go back to clause 23A(4). So subclause (6) says that \u201CThe regional planning committee must consider how to set out its regional spatial strategy in a way that\u2019s easy for interested parties and other members of the public to use and understand, including through the appropriate use of maps,\u201D etc. Then in subclause\u00A0(4) it says \u201CThe regional planning committee must be satisfied that each matter covered in its regional spatial strategy is provided for at a spatial scale that is appropriate to the matter.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo a lot of submitters were asking about things that were at place or in their local community. So does that require when they\u2019re wanting to have some input into the spatial plan that it\u2019s OK for them just to interact with their piece at place and not feel overwhelmed by the whole spatial plan in general? Because a lot of their queries were around their ability, their resource, their lack of resource and funding to be able to make submissions. So I just wanted to satisfy them on that case, that they were able to interact at place without having to go further than that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022233e307d7b6544d0a79beeff0fe92539\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022233e307d7b6544d0a79beeff0fe92539\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thank you very much to the member for that question. I think it\u2019s a very good and fair point, and I\u2019m pleased that she referred to clause 23A(6), which, of course, uses the word \u201Cmaps\u201D\u2014very pleased that the bill now refers to them. Yes, that would be my interpretation as well, that of course you\u2019ve got the spatial strategy across the region, and some areas of that region will need a whole lot more detail than other areas, and it would be my expectation that community members that want to get involved in the process would be able to look at the part of the region that they are interested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ETo the previous member\u2019s question, the Hon Scott Simpson, I\u2019d point out, of course, that there can be regulations about that evidence. So this is still clause 23A(1)(b). And then in clause 23A(2), the rest of the sentence does say \u201Cif the committee considers that including the content is necessary to achieve the purpose of this Act.\u201D\u2014so that\u2019s one of the tests. Then in clause 23A(3) it goes through what that committee must have regard to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00222b3ccff09e944c6ab2801446bcc61ae1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b3ccff09e944c6ab2801446bcc61ae1\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I just want to come back to clause 17(1)(c) and (d). Minister, these paragraphs state that the key matters referred to in the contents of regional spatial strategies are (c) \u201Careas that are appropriate for urban development and change,\u201D and (d), \u201Careas that are appropriate for developing, using, or extracting natural resources, including generating energy:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, Minister, if the objective of these complementary pieces of legislation\u2014the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill\u2014were to protect the environment, wouldn\u2019t it be more appropriate that, instead of designating the areas that are appropriate for urban development, a spatial strategy identified areas such as weather and natural hazards from flooding, tsunami, sea-level rise, landslides, volcanoes\u2014places where it\u2019s not appropriate for urban development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EPotentially, in terms of paragraph (d), wouldn\u2019t a spatial strategy be more helpful if, instead of limiting the areas where developers, quarry operators, constructors might seek quarry resources, for example, Minister\u2014aggregates are often only found in relation to the underlying geology; in other words, around Auckland hard blue rock suitable for roading and concrete making is found around Hunua, Drury, South Auckland, associated with andesite volcanics, which are a suitable material for making concrete and building roads out of. And a spatial planner might not have perfect information and might not know that over the hill or the next hill, there might be the next opportunity for quarrying resources. So would it not be more appropriate, Minister, instead of saying where it\u2019s appropriate to go and extract those resources, that a planner would identify those very special places? They might be areas of regenerating native bush. They might be a wetland where a threatened species like the k\u014Dtuku, the white heron, lives. Wouldn\u2019t it be more appropriate, Minister, that those places are specifically excluded from development rather than have planners who must claim to have perfect knowledge if they\u2019re colouring in a plan and claiming they know where the best place or the only appropriate place for developing, using, or extracting natural resources is, to colour in that part of the map where that activity is able to be consented?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat seems to work at cross purposes with the, \u201CHey, why don\u2019t we get on with building stuff? Make it cheaper, better, faster; protect our most special places.\u201D Here, this appears to be working at cross purposes. Minister, will you explain why 17(1)(c) and (d) use the terms \u201Cappropriate for urban development\u201D instead of that much more helpful \u201Cnot appropriate for urban development and resource development\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002231a5d796bf23406da83da43e3e255924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231a5d796bf23406da83da43e3e255924\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just make the point again that this is about good integrated planning. So as the member said\u2014and I agree with him\u2014you should be looking at those areas that are vulnerable to risks and that may, in fact, lead you to find where some areas are appropriate for urban development. But there are other reasons why something might be appropriate for urban development, not just it being inappropriate, and that is that it may already have the existing infrastructure and can hold more people and more houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022feeba989d85b44cb97c71df39980e530\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feeba989d85b44cb97c71df39980e530\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019d like to turn to\u2014I\u2019ve been waiting that long, I\u2019ve forgotten now\u2014clause 24. Subclause (2) states that the \u201Cregional planning committee must have particular regard to the following, to the extent relevant to the regional spatial strategy:\u201D\u2014and it goes and lists a number of things\u2014(a) the Government policy statements listed in Schedule 3; (b) any statement of regional environmental outcomes or statement of community outcomes that is provided to the committee within the period specified in subsection (2A); and (c) any planning document that is\u2014(i) \u201Crecognised by an iwi authority or a group that represents hap\u016B;\u201D and it goes on to a number of others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut I don\u2019t see anything there about Forest \u0026amp; Bird. I don\u2019t see anything there about tramping clubs or the Deerstalkers Association or other interested environmental groups\u2014just simply iwi or hap\u016B. Now, why is that list incomplete? If you\u2019re going to have a list at all, why is it not complete? Because all those people have interests in land and in spaces and how they might be used. It seems to me that that\u2019s an omission. Perhaps that\u2019s a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), an urgent SOP that\u2019s needed. So I\u2019m interested to hear what you have to say about that, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022904af0be19c94e31bae6832c3b402639\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022904af0be19c94e31bae6832c3b402639\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m coming into this late and I apologise if I am not quite getting the right place in the legislation, in the bill, but I wonder if the Minister could help me. I\u2019ve had an email from a constituent today and it\u2019s about an area that I\u2019ve been very passionate in\u2014the aquaculture developments in Southland. The email informs me that there was a disappointing decision from the Environmental Protection Authority expert panel today on an application from Ng\u0101i Tahu for deep-sea salmon farming. Of course, a lot of work has been done in Southland around the potential of turning aquaculture into a billion-dollar industry in Southland and they have, unfortunately, been turned down with this application. The comment is that we need specific aquaculture legislation because the changes in the bills that we are considering are going to take probably 10 years to be brought into reality and they are still clunky and time-consuming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EMinister, I wonder if you can give me some assurances\u2014and, in fact, assurances for Ng\u0101i Tahu and those in Southland who were looking forward to being able to develop an aquaculture industry\u2014as to just how this is going to be made possible through the bills before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227c18b12ea1e840ab9abab49701e61d5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c18b12ea1e840ab9abab49701e61d5f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I would note, first of all, to that member, Penny Simmonds, that we are just considering one bill at the moment and we are considering Part 2 of that and we\u2019ve already considered the Natural and Built Environment Bill, which does have more to say on aquaculture. I acknowledge the issue that she is talking about, with a different hat on, really, but for this bill\u2014the regulatory framework is in the other bill; this is the larger spatial scale which, of course, can look at the coastal marine environment. Yeah, but I think it\u2019s safest not to talk too much about that now, given it\u2019s the other bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing back to Stuart Smith\u2019s question when he was looking at the different instruments that are to be considered at clause 24, and he asked about other organisations. In Schedule 4 at clause 1(3)(g)\u2014this is the identification of relevant matters and specifically the \u201Cnon-governmental organisations with an interest in the content of the strategy or its implementation\u201D including community or environmental groups or interests or industry or development sectors are included at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee6a7ef9bbce4aae86ba776266f6ac10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee6a7ef9bbce4aae86ba776266f6ac10\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002248682bdcdd9346589bd3ddb7cf29794c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248682bdcdd9346589bd3ddb7cf29794c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, can I just say my opinion is that especially Simon Court has been a bit repetitive on some of the issues. I call the Hon Scott Simpson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002299ccc6d0307a44d089bdf1a5a92aad19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299ccc6d0307a44d089bdf1a5a92aad19\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to come to clause 34, which relates to the process containing key steps. Now, at the Environment Committee, there was quite a lot of debate about the word \u201Ckey\u201D\u2014how \u201Ckey\u201D should be defined, what a key step should be, and whether \u201Ckey\u201D was the right word at all for use in this legislation. So if we go to clause 34, it says that a process must contain key steps. I was going to read it out, but I\u2019m not going to do that. That then leads us on to clause 54(1), and it says: \u201CFor each key action in a regional spatial strategy, an implementation plan must\u2014(a) identify each lead for the key action;\u201D. So that, I would assume, means a nominated individual, perhaps with a title who will be the identified key lead for that specific action. And then paragraph (b) says: \u201Cstate whether the agreement of any person to being identified as a lead is subject to any conditions or limitations and, if so, what they are;\u201D. So I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister what potentially those conditions or limitations may be, in her view. And then clause 54(1)(c) says: \u201Cset out\u2014(i) a summary of the key steps that will be taken to implement or progress the key action; and (ii) the extent to which work on the key action is already under way; and (iii) the extent to which the estimated funding and other resources needed to finish implementing the key action have been secured;\u201D. So this is an area that places quite a lot of onus on a key person, a key individual, a key person with responsibility, whether it be by name or by job description or title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd so my questions to the Minister relate to this key person who will be monitoring and reporting on the key actions that are required in the statute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b9de8de98c342389664486715c8e398\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: John Key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dc02423c17f4738854227d3f332811c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, not John Key. He was a very good Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENo, but as I say, this is quite important because there\u2019s not a lot of point in establishing these regional spatial strategies, setting out the requirements of what must be or must not be included, and then not having any accountability for sort of making sure that the key actions and processes that are required in the statute to be identified and then for a nominated person to apply those\u2014I\u2019m just sort of grappling with the practicalities. How is this going to work in practice? What happens, for instance, if halfway through the 30year cycle of lifetime of a spatial strategy, it\u2019s perfectly likely that the person who has been identified as the key person, as the key lead, will change, multiple times, potentially? How is that going to be administered? What are the parameters around responsibility for that key person\u2019s role? How are they going to report on the key action and how is all that going to link and work in practice? So if the Minister could give us\u2014for the benefit of not only those of us in the Chamber this evening but also those that might be listening on their wireless or indeed watching on television\u2014an idea how that key action is going to work. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5e29c7b086343e18cb08eac94dc262f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5e29c7b086343e18cb08eac94dc262f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E So back in Part 1, both lead and key action are defined, and in the Natural and Built Environment Bill a person is defined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022709cc14c7787437d8841176e34244e05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022709cc14c7787437d8841176e34244e05\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I have a question about clause 23A, \u201CGeneral requirements: use and presentation of information\u201D. It\u2019s absolutely vital that spatial plans are made with the best information. That could be light detection and ranging data, scanning from aircraft, satellite, hydrogeological data about what happens to groundwater in a region when rain falls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, clause 23A(1) says: \u201CA regional planning committee must ensure that its regional spatial strategy is,\u2014(a) as far as practicable, based on robust and reliable evidence and other information, including m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori,\u201D. Are we to infer, Minister, that robust and reliable evidence and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori are incompatible? One is robust and reliable; one is m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. That\u2019s not how it\u2019s been pitched, but that\u2019s how it\u2019s written.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd, Minister, if we come to clause 25, \u201CGeneral considerations: other matters\u201D\u2014matters that must be considered\u2014it says \u201C(2)(d) any technical evidence and advice, including advice on m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori,\u201D. Now, technical evidence may include, based on my participation in resource consent hearings and in planning hearings\u2014and, Minister, I understand that in your former role as a resource management lawyer, a practitioner, you would be familiar with evidence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282f3ed0095db42deb11a416fb305d3ad\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Eminent practitioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022670bde0a84bb44cd801a2aae0289719b\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: An eminent practitioner, the Hon Scott Simpson says. So, fortunately, we probably have the most qualified and competent Minister in the chair right now when it comes to resource management law. Minister, \u201Ctechnical evidence\u201D I assume would include geotechnical evidence, evidence about slips, fault lines, soils, erosion; evidence about water quality could include the background chemical composition of soils and the background or natural chemical composition of water\u2014technical evidence and advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut, Minister, what advice would a submitter or somebody giving evidence provide about m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori? Well, Minister, the ACT Party proposed a definition of m\u0101tauranga. We would have been satisfied if that definition meant traditional M\u0101ori knowledge\u2014knowledge that was derived or acquired before European settlement in New Zealand; knowledge that might relate to an oral tradition, say, for example, of when a tsunami hit the East Coast of the North Island and what that did to the people who lived there, what that meant; if it wiped out the double-hulled waka that were on the beaches that day; if it killed the navigators and the waka builders. If that information could be correlated to the geological record of when that tsunami hit and how far inland it reached, that might be very useful traditional M\u0101ori knowledge. It would be very helpful to have had a definition in this bill and in the Natural and Built Environment Bill of what m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori might be so that decision makers and planners could give weight to that knowledge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, one of the problems with the m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori is that because it\u2019s an oral tradition, after a number of retellings it becomes unreliable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ad5144b3734591aa558f40267ae92a\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d51ef8f160414dddab0aeac89ca99be8\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: And there are a number of studies that demonstrate that, Mr Shanan Halbert, that it becomes unreliable after a number of retellings over generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, the ACT Party has proposed\u2014in fact, I proposed in committee to move the following amendment: that we delete reference to including m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori and advice on m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, in clauses 23A and 25. Because in the absence of a definition of m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori and in the absence of any conditional application of that knowledge\u2014in other words, how it should be weighted given the number of retellings and its degradation in terms of quality of evidence, as you would be aware of, in your role as a resource management practitioner\u2014shouldn\u2019t we, Minister, simply delete it if it can\u2019t be identified as to what it means?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00222ee69b33d7e447098ae0bd81153ecb37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ee69b33d7e447098ae0bd81153ecb37\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e91653900b0480fabcb93e900847c84\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3e8d939450d4dd69092523060e2c117\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3e8d939450d4dd69092523060e2c117\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 21 and the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228b02943aba994a4f93a081463fd0756a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00220e27f35d17ee411db1714a581d9760f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e27f35d17ee411db1714a581d9760f1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out Supplementary Order Paper 395 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022714730c29bc946a38c332193852e52fd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e316b47dfa964901aa17adec8cd3e06f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220533e83c7ffc4c2c9a0e3361adcdf2be\u0022\u003EPart 3  General powers, duties, and other matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022acb61691ae7b408fa9b73dede660489e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acb61691ae7b408fa9b73dede660489e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3. This is the debate on clauses 58 to 70, \u201CGeneral powers, duties, and other matters\u201D, and Schedule 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00222fbabdd5da124ebeb03ad7b487816441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fbabdd5da124ebeb03ad7b487816441\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, here we go. This is the sort of the grand wrap up, actually, and all through this legislative sweep that\u2019s been proposed by the current Government in its last few weeks in office. One of the criticisms of this whole change to the Resource Management Act regime is that the proposals given to the Minister for the Environment are incredibly wide-ranging, enormously broad in their breadth and ability for the Minister of the day to intervene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo Part 3, as the Chair has rightly said, indicates the general powers, duties, and other matters. Subpart 1, \u201CPowers and duties\u201D, clause 58 \u201CMinister may require information\u201D, 58(1) \u201CThe Minister may give written and dated notice requiring information to be supplied by the following bodies: a regional planning committee, a local authority, a network utility operator (including an additional utility operator) approved as requiring authority.\u201D Now, that\u2019s a very wide range of organisations. Regional planning committees, local authorities\u2014well, those are arms of local government, but network utility operators often have a stand-alone private investment capacity, or indeed they are partially owned by the Crown, or indeed have public shareholding in some cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo the ability for a Minister to require information is quite a high threshold to insist that a Minister can delve into and require from these entities information pretty much of whatever sort that the Minister may deem as being required. Clause 58(2) sets out the kind of information that may be required, and it does say in (c) that it may reasonably be required by the Minister. So there is a reasonableness test, and I guess that at some point an entity, a utility in particular, is probably going to want to test that judicially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to come on to the time frames required. Clause 58(3) requires that \u201CThe body must supply the information to the Minister within 20 working days after the date of notice, or a longer time set by the Minister.\u201D So the Minister can set a longer time because as we know, 20 working days when it comes to official information requests can be considerably longer in most cases than 20 working days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut for me, here\u2019s the kicker. Those entities, the regional planning committees, the local authorities, the network utility operators under clause 58(4), \u201CThe body must not charge the Minister for supplying the information.\u201D So that information has to be provided for free to the Minister, at the Minister\u2019s request, as long as there is a an element of reasonableness, and that test of reasonableness will have to be defined\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de8092c0499f4c1a9fa5932f999f607f\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Because of work of the OIA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209c333670be6450d87f2df8d4ca95825\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014my colleague Stuart Smith makes a very good point about the Official Information Act\u2014but must not charge. So my question to the Minister in the chair is, is that fair and reasonable, particularly in the case of network utility operators who may be, and often are, commercial entities required to report to shareholders and stakeholders in some cases, but that shareholder can be the Crown\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7908fe7d40945ccb0eb75e84a4fb162\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Could be a trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223326b5bc9e104cc6a19b5252bdd6ae23\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Could be a trust\u2014all sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo can the Minister give us some sense of assurance that requests for information are going to be reasonable, the statute says may reasonably be required, but whereabouts does that reasonableness fit? Given that the Minister is not going to be able to charge\u2014sorry, the entity or the body is not going to be able to charge the Minister for that information, I\u2019m kind of keen to have some certainty or assurance that that\u2019s not going to be an unnecessarily burdensome cost upon those organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022400f316676714ba48c562a6b32e8b53e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022400f316676714ba48c562a6b32e8b53e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Well, I would just point that member there\u2014he did sort of point to it himself, to clause 58(2)(a)(iii) regarding that network utility operator, and this is to do with implementation plans. It is about the performance of the operator\u2019s responsibilities under an implementation plan. So that is narrow, and it is in their interest to provide that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002248d0d4d9558c4d26adf47e1cbd455046\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248d0d4d9558c4d26adf47e1cbd455046\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, my colleague the Hon Scott Simpson made the very good point that the Minister is able to intervene to extraordinary lengths within these pieces of legislation, despite all the evidence that suggests that localism is a much better way to go for a more efficient management of resources and spatial areas, whereas this Spatial Planning Bill sets out to allow the Minister to have the wisdom of Solomon, or perhaps the wisdom of Parker, to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c62e56dcd141d3aa5c5259d8e76d08\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Which would be the greater wisdom, do you think? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247cf063af5e44bd7a4df97d947b0d44f\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not going to make that judgment; I\u2019ll leave that to the reader to make that decision. But if we look at clause 60, the Minister may direct amendments of spatial strategies, and it goes on to say that \u201CThe Minister may direct a regional planning committee to amend its regional spatial strategy if the Minister is satisfied that the amendment is necessary or desirable to ensure that the strategy complies with any of\u2014\u201D, and it goes through a number of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut why would you set up committees to make decisions that they have to take to the teacher, like their homework, and then they\u2019ll say, \u201CNo, go and rewrite your essay. It\u2019s not good enough.\u201D? It just doesn\u2019t seem to be an efficient way to run a system, and I know this might be a shock to some on the other side, but not all Ministers are great at their job. Sometimes you can get a rogue Minister who\u2019s not doing a very good job, and yet they have the power to step in and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5bfe69bfaa048bf852cfebd23bf78a5\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Marian Hobbs was one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266943c16d9df4d58995d63826fbccd4c\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly\u2014she was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eeb3e6248814d0683fe3be75fc449b3\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: She went rogue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225653bf97720b4ba88eec6cb733267a1d\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: She went rogue\u2014that\u2019s right. I\u2019m not suggesting anyone is going to go rogue, but you have to have that as part of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI mean, the reality is that with human nature being what it is, we are not all equal. Some people make a better job of things than others. Ministers do come and go, and yet we\u2019re setting this up to have one person to control this\u2014one person. I\u2019d like the Minister to explain why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t really seem like there\u2019s a reasonable test in this to say that the Minister has to have reasonable cause to actually come in over the top of the regional committee and make a direction. So I\u2019d like to know some detail about this, and perhaps the Minister could give us an example\u2014that would be really helpful\u2014of when she thinks that in the way this legislation is written, it would be reasonable for a Minister to come in over the top of the regional planning committee and rule over the top of it. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f461f48dc5a64bb99d9d5c0d03d97d83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f461f48dc5a64bb99d9d5c0d03d97d83\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As the members will know, the Resource Management Act (RMA) currently has a lot of ministerial powers and most of these powers in here have been carried over from the RMA with those existing checks and balances. So you\u2019ll see there that the member Stuart Smith was referring to clause 60, and at clause 60(3), there is a whole lot of revisions that the Minister must do if they are using that discretionary power found in subclause (1). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe ministerial powers don\u2019t enable the Minister to get involved in the day-to-day decisions of the regional planning committees or the territorial authorities, and, of course, under this new system the Minister has an appointed member on to those committees, so I would expect that the need for any intervention would be reduced because of that. But, of course, the members have said that not all Ministers are perfect, and, likewise, not all regional committee will always be perfect, or they may not be. So this is why we have these ministerial powers in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222dee4f24cc45449492242a1f17e428fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dee4f24cc45449492242a1f17e428fb\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to go to clause 63, because it\u2019s around the Minister making grants and loans. It says \u201CThe Minister may make grants [and] loans to any person to assist in achieving the purpose of this Act.\u201D So if you go back to the purpose around te Oranga o te Taiao\u2014it\u2019s quite broad, and it says, \u201CThe Minister may impose terms and conditions on a grant or loan\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ECould you just, please\u2014I don\u2019t know if this is a carryover from the Resource Management Act or not, because I don\u2019t know it as well as you do, but it just seems to me that it\u2019s quite broad. Could the Minister give some examples as to what this potentially could be used for, just in the theoretical sort of way\u2014or maybe some examples of where it may have happened in the past?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00229b380904f65c4604bdfce00de10da257\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b380904f65c4604bdfce00de10da257\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I understand it is a carry-over here. On my version, it says, \u201Ccompare with the Resource Management Act\u201D. I\u2019ll see if the officials come up with an example, and I\u2019ll give it to you in a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7d4bd7914da43bd86d8d0b4bcb06b48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7d4bd7914da43bd86d8d0b4bcb06b48\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister Brooking, I just want to come to clause 62, that a Minister may direct that any other action be taken where a regional planning committee or a local authority should be exercising or performing a power or a function. If the Minister\u2019s satisfied \u201Cthe committee or the local authority is not exercising or performing [their] power [or] function, or duty to the extent \u2026 the Minister considers [it] necessary to achieve the purpose of [this] Act\u201D\u2014or the Spatial Planning Bill, as it currently is, before it\u2019s amended\u2014and if the Minister\u2019s satisfied the committee has not exercised or performed the power, function, or duty, then the Minister can direct them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, to the Minister in the chair, there is no accountability to voters and to communities through this clause. Currently, when a spatial plan is developed\u2014and I must refer back to Auckland, where I live: the Auckland Unitary Plan is a spatial plan essentially delivering what the plans under this bill would. That spatial plan, Minister, was developed by an Independent Hearings Panel, which then referred the final draft of that plan to the elected Auckland Council. There were objections\u2014most were resolved; some were unresolved\u2014but the Independent Hearings Panel referred the draft Auckland Unitary Plan to the full council, and they voted on it and they voted to accept it, with a few amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, if Auckland Council\u2019s plan does not deliver the expected benefits\u2014in other words, it identifies where land should be made available for future urban development, where land should be available for commercial and business purposes or infrastructure\u2014and if the people of Auckland don\u2019t believe that the plan is adequate or that their council is not delivering the infrastructure and the services to give effect to that plan so that more serviced land is made available for housing\u2014because that\u2019s the purpose of planning, right? I mean, planners don\u2019t do a planning degree, spend their life developing competencies in spatial planning, simply to colour in maps and post them on the wall. There is a purpose behind this: it\u2019s to deliver plans that allow communities, the private sector, to build and to live their best lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIf those communities, made up of voters representing ratepayers and property owners, representing renters, people who live in cities and in regions\u2014if they\u2019re not satisfied with the plan, currently they can vote out the people who approved the plan and they can also ask for new representatives to develop a new plan. In this case, Minister, clause 62 says the Minister in charge may direct action to be taken. It doesn\u2019t say that Minister is accountable back to the people who live in that community, in that region. It might be the thing the Minister wants to do. There\u2019s no accountability. It\u2019s remarkable that after all the submissions that the select committee heard from local government, from regional government, from farmer groups, property developers, people concerned about trees in the urban environment, if a plan\u2019s not working, they won\u2019t have a chance to vote out the people who are failing them; they\u2019ll have to rely on a Minister, but if that Minister\u2019s intentions for their region or district are different, tough luck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, ACT says that\u2019s unacceptable, Minister. There must be democratic accountability for plan makers in each region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b27b8b13b049c1aab4cba86c735cab\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: You didn\u2019t do that with Watercare. Auckland Council CCOs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8117e7be9e14ee28e1c39ca84064c4f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: There must be. Well, this gentleman, Mr Shanan Halbert, says that ACT didn\u2019t do that with Watercare. Well, you know what? If the voters of Auckland don\u2019t like the way that Auckland Council is managing their council-controlled organisation Watercare, they can vote out their elected members, Mr Halbert, but they can\u2019t vote out a Minister who\u2019s directing their region to do stuff. Would you please explain, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022540c46e1552b45ecb1457181861c16ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022540c46e1552b45ecb1457181861c16ff\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. On this point that Simon Court is raising about the Minister\u2019s powers, I\u2019d note again that it is only if the Minister is satisfied that the local authority or committee isn\u2019t exercising or performing the powers, functions, and that reasonable steps have been taken to assist that group. Then, there are checks and balances at (3) as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOn his more, I guess, esoteric points around voting in and out people\u2014[Interruption] There\u2019s nothing wrong with being esoteric\u2014of course, Ministers can also be voted out, would be a point I\u2019d make there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBack to Barbara Kuriger\u2019s point about clause 63, it is confirmed that it is a carry-over from the Resource Management Act, and the officials tell me that it has rarely, if ever, been used, but perhaps the type of thing that it might be used for is a grant for an IT investment that would benefit all of the committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002266cdc72a3b53437dbe18ab9f429cc723\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266cdc72a3b53437dbe18ab9f429cc723\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister whether clause 64 is a carry-over or not. I suspect it\u2019s not. Clause\u00A064 places a duty of others to assist regional planning committees, and the clause applies to chief executives of departments, Crown entities, local authorities, iwi authorities and groups that represent hap\u016B, network utility operators, and that\u2019s the list. But, again, there is a requirement in clause 64(2) that these persons \u201Cmust provide information or technical support to a regional planning committee free of charge if\u2014(a)\u00A0the committee requests the information or support to assist the committee in performing or exercising its powers, functions, or duties under\u201D the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd so, again, there\u2019s quite a wide-ranging requirement potentially for what could be quite costly levels of information to be provided, and the requirement that it be done free of charge, I think, follows on my previous comments relating to a similar provision. How can the Minister ensure and give us confidence that that is going to be reasonable? There is a reasonableness test, but how can we be sure that that\u2019s not going to be abused, and will that require judicial interpretation at some point? Because I can imagine that the regional planning committees are probably going to require an awful lot of information, because they are effectively setting a strategic plan for a region for 30 years and potentially more than 30 years. So some of the detailed data and information that only a chief executive of a department or a Crown entity or a local authority can provide could potentially be very, very detailed. Now, the regional planning committees of themselves are going to almost certainly create their own secretariat, their own support, their own administrative base, their own datacollecting teams and staff, so I\u2019m interested to know: where\u2019s the balance, what it\u2019s going to be, and how can we be sure that this is going to work as intended? Because notwithstanding what I\u2019m sure is probably a good intent and, probably for reasons that may seem practical, there is a potential, I think, for abuse of this facility that requires information and data to be provided free of charge. So if the Minister can give us some insight into that, that would be very useful, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002262c0e002d3e14f80ba9466eee4a5f4d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262c0e002d3e14f80ba9466eee4a5f4d3\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to turn to clause 65, \u201CRights or interests in freshwater and geothermal resources preserved\u201D. This clause really outlines that the bill does not create, transfer, extinguish, or determine rights or interests. So, therefore, we take from that that geothermal interests, in particular, that I want to talk about are not going to be affected by this bill. But I do note that Contact Energy in their submission warned that the bills risk delaying the decarbonisation of the energy sector, putting New Zealand\u2019s emission-reduction goals at risk. So that has to come from a fear about something within these bills. So if the spatial plans, Minister, cannot extinguish the rights of any party to those resources, how might the plans actually effectively extinguish it by not allowing them to access those resources? So, as we often know, geological structures don\u2019t follow lines on maps, and so I imagine spatial plans will be based on the surface area, not in the aquifers beneath. An earthquake may, for example, change the structure of the aquifer underneath, which is the resource for the geothermal plant. Therefore, they have to go somewhere else. Is that affected if horizontal drilling in the geothermal space underneath crosses the spatial plan\u2019s boundary underneath the surface? Is that an allowable activity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244136de2e3ac42fe9fdeadc599355ab5\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: It sparked a war between Iraq and Kuwait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228be0d56686e748f4b9b08af8376088a7\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Wow! It\u2019s a very serious question, and I know it might seem a little technical, Minister, but it could be very important. I do note the concern of Contact Energy, and I\u2019m sure they don\u2019t spend their days trying to trip up the Government. They are concerned about their business. So that must come from some real concern. So have you turned your mind to that, Minister? I\u2019d be really interested if that is the sort of thing you think that they might be concerned about in their submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002283a89d9aa85e4e27911f0065524c8fe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283a89d9aa85e4e27911f0065524c8fe3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve noted a couple of times in this debate, these spatial planning plans are not regulatory plans. That is the Natural and Built Environment plan, and these provisions\u2014clauses 66 and 65\u2014are largely carry-overs from the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing back to the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s points about the different bodies that need to provide information for free under clause 64\u2014of course, this is an important point, and I think the member acknowledged this as well; we are trying to get all the relevant parties involved in the making of this plan and, therefore, we need the information sharing. As he noted as well, there is that practical and reasonable test but also under Schedule 8 of the Natural and Built Environment Bill, if it is costly, it can be paid for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f43be0d46a9c4e6b9cb54ab37f5badb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f43be0d46a9c4e6b9cb54ab37f5badb7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Scott\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca62e4c2e00488faabe26abd9b38d10\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee52ad805b84b31beb2a2f5094ef937\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022573398c43dc242cdbf494974df382bd7\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s getting late, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e85a5ee28ef4e43982ed8dbc83b974d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s getting too late in the night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3a02869005c4647bd71f2d5ed2abef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3a02869005c4647bd71f2d5ed2abef0\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I do accept the honorific of being compared to the Hon Scott Simpson. What a charming, dapper, and experienced member of the Environment Committee, who I would have to give no small credit to for what I have learnt in my three short years as an MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, clause 63, a \u201CMinister may make grants or loans to any person to assist in achieving the purpose of this Act.\u201D Now, it does go on to say that money must be \u201Cappropriated by Parliament for [this] purpose.\u201D But Minister, I\u2019m concerned that a Minister of the Crown having all of the powers of a Minister for the Environment conferred by the Natural and Built Environment Act, as it no doubt will become, and the Spatial Planning Bill, or Act, as this will become, will also have the power to hand out some Crown bucks, some green bucks, to any person to assist in achieving the purpose of this Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow that\u2019s a remarkable thing to include in a bill. Minister, would you care to explain, in just a moment, because I\u2019ve got three questions. What are the criteria that a taxpayer might assume are applied to this power for the Minister to make grants and loans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef0b2cce0254ddd92f92b339728cd86\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Where do we apply\u2014where do we apply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228ced843c19c43f49a3819964f87d4e2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Scott Simpson wants to know where does he apply? I\u2019m sure that\u2019s because he\u2019s the member for Coromandel. He has a plan to capture and rehome some Hochstetter\u2019s frogs because he might be a person assisting in achieving the purpose of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, clause 66. \u201CInterests in land are not taken or injuriously affected by regional spatial [strategy]\u201D. It says here, \u201CAn interest in land must be treated as not being taken or injuriously affected by any provision in a regional spatial strategy unless this Act provides otherwise.\u201D Minister, are we to assume that property owners\u2019 interests in land will be injuriously affected by plans made under this bill, or Act when it becomes law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWill the Minister explain what that clause means? Because many, many submitters at the Environment Committee were concerned at the erosion of property rights\u2014including existing rights\u2014through resource consents to take water, to discharge to the commons from their businesses from their undertakings. Minister, would you explain, in addition to what is the criteria for the handing out of green bucks or planning bucks under clause\u00A063, what is the risk of interest in land being injuriously affected by regional spatial strategies? How\u2019s that to be mitigated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen, Minister, we come to clause 67, \u201CSystem performance\u201D. Now, Minister, I remember that you were on the Randerson panel that identified some of the problems with the Resource Management Act. One of them was\u2014when it came to consenting and land development, making land available for housing, and for making it easier to build infrastructure\u2014that the performance of the Resource Management Act was poor and that this legislation and the corresponding complementary bills were intended to improve system performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EYet, rather than the efficiency of the system being up there, maybe in the purpose clause, it\u2019s down here at clause 67. Which doesn\u2019t give it much weight, Minister, compared to all the other things that people making decisions, having powers, giving effect to things under this legislation will have to take account of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESystem performance\u2014chief executives are supposed to prepare a monitoring and evaluation report and then to report on it, and local authorities have to prepare a report on it. Well, goodness me. How the ambition to improve the system performance of the resource management, the land management, environmental management process has been eroded. Clause 67, Minister, would you care to explain your answers to those three questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00226a2c198429104546812c6f8e959f5741\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a2c198429104546812c6f8e959f5741\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019re starting at clause 67, \u201CSystem performance\u201D. Of course, it is the whole scheme of the legislation and having these spatial plans that is one of the ways to achieve the issues identified by the Randerson review there. Clause 67, though, is, of course, helpful. Going backwards, now, to clause 66. This is the same as the Resource Management Act (RMA) and it\u2019s not an erosion of any property rights. As I said before, the same can be said for clause 63.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI do want to, though, turn it back to Stuart Smith\u2019s question. My apologies to Stuart Smith when I said everything was the same as the RMA. There is, in fact, at clause 65\u2014it is the same as clause 814 of the Natural and Built Environment Bill and it\u2019s consistent with a High Court case. The Crown has committed to not preclude options to address freshwater rights and interests, and this clause is to preserve that commitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00228969f64561ff4cf7b7c1c267581aa3f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228969f64561ff4cf7b7c1c267581aa3f9\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00223657ec0c2fd444818d23d96c03da14d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223657ec0c2fd444818d23d96c03da14d8\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in terms of the regulations, Minister\u2014the Governor-General, in terms of clause 68, can make regulations providing for anything this Act says may or must be provided for by regulations. I mean, this is a remarkable clause. What\u2019s been clear, Minister, through the development of the legislation: first reading, second reading\u2014in fact, let\u2019s go back to the exposure draft of the Natural and Built Environment Bill, back in 2022. There were a whole lot of conflicts that this legislative process was intending to resolve, or to develop legislation that would allow these conflicts to be resolved, Minister. So conflicts between protecting special places in the environment and \u201CHey, we need to build things. We need to build homes for people to live in. We need to develop resources like quarries so we can excavate the hard blue rock in the case of South Auckland and North Auckland so that we can build the roads, so that we can make the concrete blocks, so we can build the subdivisions and build our cities.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIn Auckland alone, between half a million and a million people are expected to come to our great city between now and 2050. That\u2019s according to population projections that the Auckland Unitary Plan provides for. So Minister, given that the bills\u2014the Natural and Built Environment Bill and this Spatial Planning Bill\u2014have deferred the resolution of conflicts between the natural environment, between, apparently, the interests of mana whenua in each region, and people who want to build things and get on with life. It\u2019s deferred the resolution of all of those conflicts to a national planning framework and then maybe Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment plans, and then of course, spatial plans made under this bill, where these conflicts appear still not to be resolved; they appear to have been kicked for touch. So Minister, would you care to elaborate on what recommendations of the Minister, made under clause 68(1): \u201CThe Governor-General may, by order in council\u201D\u2014\u201Cmay\u201D. What regulations provide for anything this Act says \u201Cmay\u201D or \u201Cmay be\u201D provided for, and how the information might be set out in an implementation plan? Because as with everything that this bill has delivered, it hasn\u2019t appeared to resolve conflicts. It\u2019d be very interesting to hear the Minister\u2019s interpretation of how this clause may be interpreted and how it might help to resolve conflicts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022da7dc57c8f7d45a1bda9f3d8bd2a4f49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da7dc57c8f7d45a1bda9f3d8bd2a4f49\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Well, of course, there is some conflict resolution within the purpose of the Act, which is in a different part, which we\u2019ve had in a different debate. I\u2019d say in terms of the specific question around clause 68(1) and providing for anything in this Act, we\u2019ve already discussed that there can be regulations for the type of evidence used, and I would think that wording is a fairly standard one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcbed74faf8246018c1dc03acd780e71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcbed74faf8246018c1dc03acd780e71\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002241893bc882054ec7922ccc68d91b65cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022886aef9827634f2eb445df20072b860e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022886aef9827634f2eb445df20072b860e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 62 and amendments to Part 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022de88dbca2d1c4ba5aaa7ada33dcfb23e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cd9236ff6376404bad1145ee9bb8dec5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c7dd8ed172b4413aa521a725d7d834c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002231da5b759c4d49df86e63a0585f0446d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231da5b759c4d49df86e63a0585f0446d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 2 set out in Supplementary Order Paper 390 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227289efebdb3849d282638346938f98b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e4ae7d3c2fd3473a85ffbe61b527e462\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236a5d9c48e044df0b61291b0a2a509ef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225d010c1dc7eb4b32ba6510f76fa06631\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E That Schedule 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000775\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question,\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab73f66544e8425c8214f4027c9d9e29\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022257d766b78d848ff8543356f0226eeec\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5dd4cc5b4e04bd982f050aa64bbe0ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5dd4cc5b4e04bd982f050aa64bbe0ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, which is on the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002291092dd7b4a8461c8bb330abfa45928d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291092dd7b4a8461c8bb330abfa45928d\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. At clause 1, the title could easily be called \u201CThis Act is the Spatial Planning Act (Soon to be Repealed before Christmas) Act.\u201D, because that\u2019s certainly the intention, if we have an opportunity to\u2014with our ACT coalition partners\u2014lead a new Government after the general election in October. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut my question to the Minister is that in its first conceptual stages, this piece of legislation was referred to as the Strategic Planning Bill, and at some point the word \u201Cstrategic\u201D was replaced with the word \u201Cspatial\u201D. Although there was some debate at the time\u2014and I can\u2019t actually recall; I think the Randerson committee\u2019s report called for a Strategic Planning Act, but now we have a Spatial Planning Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to know what the rationale, what the reason, what the change was, why it was made, what was the basis of it, and can the Minister give us maybe some historic insight into it. Because she herself was a member of the Randerson panel, and I\u2019m sure that back in the conceptual, formative days of Randerson, there was probably quite a lot of consideration given to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe other point that I would like to make in regard to the title is why this bill exists in its entirety. Why couldn\u2019t this bill have actually been incorporated into the Natural and Built Environment Bill? Do we actually need a separate title and a separate piece? Could this piece of legislation have been incorporated into one statute? So if the Minister can give us a bit of an insight into that, I would appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002236ccbe8124284413b0322902f5110c7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236ccbe8124284413b0322902f5110c7b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. The member is correct that certainly it was at one point\u2014before it was introduced\u2014referred to as the \u201CStrategic Planning Bill\u201D, and of course it is about strategic planning, but the way many people referred to it and thought about it was as spatial planning. Because that is the term that most people seem to use, and because, as the member knows, I\u2019m pleased that the word \u201Cmap\u201D is now in the bill\u2014we want to be able to see the plan as well, and so that is the element of spatial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of whether or not it could be two different bills, I\u2019m not sure that it is to do with the title of this bill, but it is a good question, and I\u2019ll leave it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022061d897fef2949f193db30fc4b6c4745\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022061d897fef2949f193db30fc4b6c4745\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, isn\u2019t it correct that the reason that strategic planning was first advanced as a title for the draft bill, or the proposed bill, was because the problem that the Minister identified\u2014that the Randerson panel, in its report, proposed to solve\u2014was that we need to build a whole lot of infrastructure in New Zealand; it\u2019s become too expensive to build. The Infrastructure Commission identified that consenting alone costs $1.3 billion a year. That\u2019s not taking the consent conditions for erosion and sediment control permits, buying the silt fence, digging the silk pond, setting up the fence, installing the duct. That\u2019s just the consenting, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd wasn\u2019t the use of the word \u201Cstrategic\u201D intended to identify that while the planning has already taken place\u2014in fact, regional councils, territorial, and local authorities have already constructed district plans and regional plans, which their communities have voted on or have the ability to vote out councillors who approve those plans, and the provisions of this bill simply duplicate what\u2019s already being carried out. In fact, Auckland Council and Hamilton City Council made just that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not spatial planning that they needed, Minister; it\u2019s strategic planning that would help them link up where they\u2019ve already identified people will build and live with the infrastructure needed. Because the strategy to link, \u201CHey, we know where the land is where people can build or live, but the infrastructure to service that land is missing.\u201D\u2014that was the strategic part. Planning legislation should, in fact, enable that infrastructure to be built as of right by asset owners without having to prove\u2014as they do here\u2014that they\u2019ve complied with esoteric, animist, and spiritualist even conditions around tikanga, kawa, and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, which we debated last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, wouldn\u2019t it be correct to say that spatial planning is already common? It\u2019s already done well in New Zealand. We have community input, we have input from stakeholders, who might say, \u201CHey, you know, that land by Auckland Airport, that land in Hamilton between the State highway, that fantastic four-lane\u2014in places six-lane\u2014State Highway 1 that trucks can travel on at high speed, 110 kilometre an hour road environment\u201D\u2014Minister, what they need to know is that the infrastructure needed to connect, say, a distribution centre to the motorway, the new town centre to waste-water and stormwater systems\u2014they need a strategic plan, Minister. That\u2019s what local government\u2019s been asking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, isn\u2019t it correct to say that the title of this bill should, in fact, be a \u201CStrategic Planning Bill\u201D, but not for this bill, because it doesn\u2019t deliver the intent that the Randerson panel, of which you yourself, Minister, were a member at one point\u2014it doesn\u2019t deliver on the intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002274a9c341c27841b9b26124b569b2b96b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274a9c341c27841b9b26124b569b2b96b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d just remind the member that we\u2019ve already had an extensive conversation about the need for the strategic direction in these plans, and so there is no loss of the strategy by changing the name to \u201CSpatial\u201D; it\u2019s just what people seem to accidentally be referring to the bill as. They are both important elements, and I don\u2019t disagree with the member on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe790aee1f7d4b5eacad1ec7040ca31a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe790aee1f7d4b5eacad1ec7040ca31a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. I will resume the Chair at 9 a.m. tomorrow morning. This session is suspended until then. P\u014D m\u0101rie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802b78aab36bc5e4922951218922ee1efb1000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.59 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b429db04757f4e21a89f907c6688e00a\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 2 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e4938c2500f4d81a0c5d62a3726dcd7\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 3 August 2023)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae61fdeab3aa42f8aae1ed3070976bea\u0022\u003ESpatial Planning Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f2656ad43464104bf427c10eeb0eeff\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ff4cbc7de3c49dba4c6b21f3abac09a\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 (continued) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0d7261c7e2f49c8912bb576a8a4f91b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0d7261c7e2f49c8912bb576a8a4f91b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. The committee is resumed on the Spatial Planning Bill. When we suspended the debate last night, we were considering clauses 1 and 2. Once again, the question is that clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022dced679f5188481ebf0edcd34b848af6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dced679f5188481ebf0edcd34b848af6\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s good to be back this morning. For those people that are watching on their television sets or perhaps listening on their wirelesses or even on their crystal sets, maybe, I want to just give a little bit of a moment\u2019s background about where we are and what we\u2019re doing. So we are considering, at the moment, what\u2019s referred to as the title and commencement phase of the committee of the whole House\u2014that\u2019s clauses 1 and 2 of the Spatial Planning Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, the Spatial Planning Bill is the second leg of the Government\u2019s trifecta plan to reform and change the Resource Management Act regime that has been in place since the early 1990s and which is accepted\u2014I think across the Parliament\u2014to have had its day. But when we come to this Spatial Planning Bill and its relationship with the Natural and Built Environment legislation, the two are intimately and fundamentally connected. So when we come to the commencement of this Spatial Planning Bill, it\u2019s a very simple commencement clause; it reads: \u201CThis Act comes into force on the day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent.\u201D Now that stands in stark contrast to the commencement provisions that go in the sister piece of legislation, which is the Natural and Built Environment legislation. Now, in that piece of legislation it was a very long and complicated commencement clause. This one just says, \u201Cthe day after the date [at] which it receives the Royal assent.\u201D That\u2019s a more traditional, standardised, and familiar commencement clause to members of this House\u2014it\u2019s pretty simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut my question to the Minister is: why, in this piece of legislation, does it not necessarily match the quite complicated and convoluted commencement process in the Natural and Built Environment legislation? And does she think that this is actually going to be able to commence a process that will kick off in a way that will be synchronised with the sister piece of legislation? Because it\u2019s very important that we consider these two pieces of legislation as a box set. We do of course not yet have the third part of the legislation, which is the adaptation piece. We\u2019ve been told that that will be introduced to the Parliament before the Parliament rises at the end of August, so we\u2019re running out of time on that and it would be helpful to have some clarity and comment from the Minister in the chair as to how the commencement date of this piece of legislation fits with the sister pieces of legislation\u2014the one that we have seen and considered at length and in detail and also the piece of legislation that we haven\u2019t seen and are yet to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d98a0ea3e3b848739abffa046dad88ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d98a0ea3e3b848739abffa046dad88ff\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m very happy to agree with the Hon Scott Simpson on a number of points there; of course, this bill is very, very closely linked with the Natural and Built Environment Bill, and I also agree that it has a very simple commencement clause. Of course, I would refer to Schedule 1 in the transitional provisions that this bill is about making a plan and that plan must be made within three years after the committee is treated as established under the Natural and Built Environment Bill. So they are clearly linked. In terms of the climate adaptation piece of legislation, that is a discrete and difficult topic as I know the member appreciates, and these two other pieces of legislation can work without it. Of course, it will be a good piece of legislation when it comes through and important for New Zealand dealing with climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022b41896d868c74e8585d7b57debacc327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b41896d868c74e8585d7b57debacc327\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It is a pleasure to be speaking on this bill this morning. I would like to also point out that the people in the Coromandel have moved on from crystal sets, and when I was last there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b465613b594e4ccd8e13524aef83b5fa\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve still got munted roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286c24f8b771941698826931b004afa06\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know, and the Minister is quite confused about a crystal set and we\u2019ll have a chat about that later. I have to say that neither Scott Simpson nor myself were in Hastings in 1066, but we are aware of what went on then, so having a good sense of history is quite a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6e152ab8ce64ad898052b19b6cb583f\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: David Parker was there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a74321138b42669dc39b3f3127ac86\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. But, Mr Chair, I know you\u2019re interested in the title and commencement clauses, and I am focusing on the commencement clause, and I would like to ask the Minister: given that this legislation and its sister bill, the Natural and Built Environment Bill, are so intrinsically linked to the economic activity of New Zealand and will be when they come in, and that we have an election in about 70 days, wouldn\u2019t it have been more appropriate to have a commencement date that was enough time for the incoming Government to assess whether they wanted these bills or not? We are having, effectively, a referendum on, among other things, the Resource Management Act (RMA) reform, \u201CRMA 2.0\u201D, and I think that given it is so broad and it covers so much of the activities of New Zealand\u2014in fact, we almost have to have a consent to have a bowl of fruit on the table in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e936b9575ec40e0aa14bfb76d02b7c1\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Organic fruit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfc214843f284daaa9b859218acd2c61\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Organic fruit\u2014yes, maybe. So it would seem appropriate to let New Zealanders have their say on it rather than try to rush it in. The National Party has the position that we will repeal it. So it seems pointless to try and just ram it through in the dying days of the Government to try and usurp the democratic process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI\u2019d really like to know, Minister, if you personally considered this when you were working on that, and when you were on the Randerson review panel\u2014I know that you weren\u2019t the Minister then\u2014but surely it would have been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022717a1c8e411040e6abad2f117e75014b\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Would\u2019ve had aspirations, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0a1acd95a649e1a8245b30aa4743c2\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Would have had aspirations. But would you have considered this has such an effect on our democracy that it actually should have been put up for the community to have a say? If you\u2019ve got confidence in this as being a good piece of legislation, surely you\u2019d have confidence that the public would vote accordingly in favour of that and therefore you would have a commencement date of, say, 1 January\u2014I don\u2019t know what day of the week that is\u20142024 or some period after the election which would give time for an incoming Government to consider whether they wanted to run with this or not and therefore save New Zealand a whole lot of time and expense. When this bill receives the Royal assent, no doubt there\u2019ll be a whole lot of officials beavering away with the implementation of these bills. So I look forward to the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022923b9101c4314124a7c0331b8daa2c85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022923b9101c4314124a7c0331b8daa2c85\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to say that this legislation and its sister legislation\u2014I like it that the legislation is female today\u2014is good for the economy. It reduces red tape. National says they don\u2019t like the Resource Management Act and they don\u2019t like this, so who knows what they will do. But if it was in partnership with ACT, then it\u2019s pretty terrifying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002279aa62c45b694dadb45702b4f3c0eb29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279aa62c45b694dadb45702b4f3c0eb29\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, the Minister need not fear. ACT has prepared our alternative solutions for building New Zealand and conserving nature. But, Minister, I just want to come back to the commencement. Only a short time ago, this current Government passed the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Act, which required councils\u2014the major metros, including Auckland, Hamilton, Christchurch, for example\u2014to go through a planning exercise to provide for three units of three storeys on their entire metro area. And councils like Hamilton and Auckland, which has consulted on plan change 78, that would require that policy of this Government to be implemented by a certain time frame\u2014they are delivering that; it\u2019s costing them a lot of money, it\u2019s costing submitters a lot of money and time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c42f13e178b447ba89d001b5b57cbdf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Court, get to the point of your question, please, and not concentrate on too much context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220493c42fe46d4447944c589d18edc27e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Chair. The concern, for the Minister, is that while all of that planning activity is going on under the existing Resource Management Act, a parallel planning activity will have to commence once this Spatial Planning Bill becomes law, which will, essentially, duplicate a whole lot of planning work undertaken by Auckland Council, by Hamilton, Christchurch\u2014these other metros.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, wouldn\u2019t it be helpful to delay the implementation of the Spatial Planning Act\u2014if it becomes law\u2014say, to 12 months from the time that this is passed, and give it an implementation date similar to that of the Natural and Built Environment Bill, so that these councils, who are already carrying out significant plan changes as a result of the last piece of legislation this Government passed, can at least complete that process or have a landing on it so they\u2019re not trying to carry out the implementation of the Spatial Planning Bill at the same time as they\u2019re still carrying out the plan changes directed through the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and other Matters) Amendment) Act. Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002291d13dffb09c4820984477b6d636b253\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291d13dffb09c4820984477b6d636b253\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve just got a question around\u2014there\u2019s been a bit of talk about sister bills this morning, and obviously there\u2019s a third one that we haven\u2019t seen yet in a little place I represent called Tongap\u014Drutu. We actually have a rock structure called Three Sisters, and the tide and the climate actually came in at one point and washed one of them away. And, fortuitously, the climate actually came in again and formulated another one, so we\u2019re back to Three Sisters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo what this has to do with the commencement clause, Mr Chair, is I just wanted to ask the Minister, in as much as she is able to tell us, about the third sister in this set of bills. In respect of the commencement of that bill, are the clauses in that bill to be constructed in a way that the commencement of that bill will nicely align with the commencement of the two bills that we\u2019ve already previously discussed, so that when it comes into force it\u2019s all working in tandem and we have three sisters again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002255421836f21f414b87303ad1a086f3d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255421836f21f414b87303ad1a086f3d4\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Very good and pertinent points raised by my colleague Barbara Kuriger. I want to focus again on the title, and then I want to come back to the commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EEarlier in this debate, we discussed briefly\u2014I was going to say \u201Cat length\u201D, but it was actually quite a brief discussion\u2014why the bill\u2019s name had been changed from its original, conceptual name of the \u201CStrategic Planning Bill\u201D and then it got changed to being the \u201CSpatial Planning Act\u201D. We had a little bit of a debate about that, and the Minister answered some questions. But my further thinking on it, given that the words \u201Cspatial\u201D and \u201Cstrategic\u201D are not synonyms that are perfectly aligned\u2014they do have different meanings, different contexts, different words\u2014I\u2019m wondering whether the Minister considered at any stage, either she or her officials, the possibility of perhaps changing the name of this piece of legislation to the \u201CSpatial and Strategic Planning Bill\u201D. That would have then covered off both bases and actually been a kind of a compromise that would have potentially fulfilled both ambitions that are contained in the words \u201Cstrategic\u201D and also \u201Cspatial\u201D. The Minister, I\u2019m sure, would maybe want to comment just briefly on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe naming of legislation is quite important, because it does send a tonal sort of cultural, overarching perspective about what the legislation is supposed to be. It, effectively, is the name on the tin, and if, potentially, we could have had the \u201CSpatial and Strategic Planning Bill\u201D, maybe that would have been a way to allay the concerns of some people who felt that the change of name from \u201Cconcept\u201D to \u201Cimplementation\u201D has been one that\u2019s worthy of significant comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just pick up, secondly, in relation to the commencement\u2014and I\u2019m following up on a point that my colleague Stuart Smith made about the timing of this package of legislation\u2014the suite of these two bills and the third one that we are yet to see is, effectively, a referendum. I want to cast the Minister in the chair\u2019s mind back to the original implementation of the Resource Management Act in the early 1990s. The reason I\u2019m traversing that is because I think that that methodology could have been a template pathway for something similar in terms of the commencement of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBack in that day, there was a Labour Government in power. Sir Geoffrey Palmer had done quite a lot of work in formulating the Resource Management Act that we know today. It had gone to a select committee, there had been submissions, it had come back to the House, it had actually concluded a second reading, and then all that was needed to pass that legislation was a third reading. It had got to that point, but before a third reading took place, an election\u2014the 1990 election\u2014intervened and there was a change of Government. Jim Bolger\u2019s Government came into Government. Jim Bolger appointed Simon Upton to be his Minister for the Environment. The bill was picked up by the new Parliament\u2014the Bolger-led Parliament\u2014and then sent back to select committee. It was quite an unusual process, but it was a process that was effective, and it straddled a political timing landscape that is not dissimilar to the one that we currently confront.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, with that background and the second sending back to select committee, I\u2019m wondering whether the Minister had given consideration to a similar timing process that would have the potential to allow the next Parliament to have a look at this, potentially make some tweaks, some changes, some modifications that would have allowed a process not dissimilar to that that occurred with the implementation and timing and commencement of the of the Resource Management Act that we currently have today. That resulted in, effectively, a cross-party, bipartisan approach that gave, I think, a greater degree of certainty not only to citizens but also to officials, who, up and down the countryside, will be looking at this commencement date. This is likely to be passed using the Government\u2019s\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0e6392eaa184dbbb5a91848229cd5d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0e6392eaa184dbbb5a91848229cd5d4\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Touching on a number of those points, I\u2019ll start with the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s point about the name, which is, of course, actually part of the debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225942d1eaa6f4ae5993b470b33d46c60\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: The title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022638b0ae4ee7444fcaa8188963a0a3858\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the title\u2014that\u2019s right, of the Spatial Planning Bill, and he asked if there was some discussion there about that the word strategic is not a synonym for spatial, and I totally agree with that; they are different things. That is why, particularly at clause 15 there is a lot of focus on the strategic plan\u2014on the strategic nature of the spatial plan. You could call it either a spatial plan or a strategic plan, and you could have called it a strategic spatial planning bill as well, because the plan needs to be both spatial, and of course strategic. That is quite a mouthful if you put two Ss in there as the member knows\u2014my issues with two names with two Ss\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022968720a73ce6412aa689649c99a19a17\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s nothing wrong with two Ss.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226810534a0d344d8baa27a96362de871c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. So that is the reason there. Of course, spatial planning is an internationally recognised term as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing into some other commentary, Simon Court was talking about the enabling housing legislation and the work of councils. Of course, the transition provisions here mean that a spatial plan isn\u2019t required until that three years from once the committee is set up, so the timing is quite different. In terms of the three sisters, the rocks that have come and gone, due to climate change. You know, that third piece of legislation, that is discrete, and it is really difficult to work at how as a country we are going to deal with climate adaptation, how we do that in a fair manner, and that requires a lot of thought, particularly around existing activities. The thinking is that that is a separate piece of legislation because it does deal with these issues that aren\u2019t about the normal day to day planning that the Natural and Built Environment Bill is about, and of course the Spatial Planning Bill is about more than day to day planning\u2014you\u2019re looking out there 30 years. So, of course, you\u2019re looking at areas that are going to be affected by climate change, but then that is for your future planning, rather than the existing issues that we have as a country with many of our communities that will be affected at some stage\u2014we don\u2019t know when\u2014by sea level rise, and that are already being affected by stronger weather events, as the member knows. So when that piece of legislation does arrive, it will have its own commencement section, and of course it will have to interact with these pieces of legislation, these sister bills, but also a number of other pieces as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen the Hon Scott Simpson gave us a history lesson, again, and suggested that\u2014as we\u2019ve heard already in these debates on this bill\u2014we might be wanting to send this back to select committee in another Parliament for tweaks and modifications. Which is very different from the National Party statements that I\u2019ve heard throughout these debates, that in fact the whole thing needs to be repealed, and very different from ACT\u2019s position as well. So it comes as somewhat of a surprise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022838fadf292054393a060b8f966a491f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022838fadf292054393a060b8f966a491f0\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022818f400e0af64cfe88b4da21ff0fb963\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2, Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002263b63bc7c5644b5b9eca5d3417726dd7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 7; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cb00899ccf2b489e967b74d94aca8f1f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 7; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000043\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000044\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7c9e6960e0c497698a4560351afdb9f\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ca37e7d3a504cc59249e7e933823aa8\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002213e4103218164f9c85849e4fdeb280ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213e4103218164f9c85849e4fdeb280ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill and reports progress. The committee also considered the Spatial Planning Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002227653db360d142488703911aada4cc61\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022869514fa43254c8a939c7fca061f4ec4\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014House Sitting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00220f58146d1b904936a5cf7e8ea82ef36d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f58146d1b904936a5cf7e8ea82ef36d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, earlier in today\u2019s sitting\u2014which was yesterday\u2014when the House was considering the motion for the extended sitting, the result of the vote on the question was incorrectly recorded as Aye 73, Noes 44. The correct result is Ayes 74, Noes\u00A044. The record will be corrected accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223be5826df5d347c99f294b1bcbff7d41\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c301b6ae31d44410b61791dc3e055432\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00223ace4873d1d04da5b9f1f01fb09ce9ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ace4873d1d04da5b9f1f01fb09ce9ce\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct an answer to an oral question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd41a908ea7145cf8c51f6a14e439757\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d76948e346dc43219bab9ddc26cd3155\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to correct an answer I gave in relation to oral question No. 3, supplementary No. 3 yesterday. While I was speaking about the Best Start K\u014Dwae assessment tool and it being available to all, I wasn\u2019t clear that the incentive payments that are paid to the practitioner are paid when they use the assessment with individuals who identify as M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce4cac50af5a4c708d37d6f35abe5f37\u0022\u003EWater Services Entities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb3ec59516cb4210bcd9d2454c03793c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227cd8a42eaae340de9bbd4185d17a2cbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cd8a42eaae340de9bbd4185d17a2cbd\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Local Government: I present a legislative statement on the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219ed82554ef14fdcb2f9ed586f71aec6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3071d8b5df840fd9ffa498c5da2777b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis bill will implement the decisions made by this Government to refocus its reform of water services. Everyone on this side of the room understands our water infrastructure deficit needs to be addressed now. The cost of meeting the upgrades that our water infrastructure is projected to cost is up to $185 billion over the next 30 years. That level of required investment is outside the reach of most individual councils. They can\u2019t do it by themselves. If we do nothing, it means households face increased water costs and ratepayers will be faced with an unaffordable cost burden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThroughout this process, we have not changed our bottom lines. These include public ownership of water services entities, balance sheet separation on operational and financial independence to allow the entities to make much needed investment, joint oversight of the entities by their local authority owners and mana whenua, and strong regulation of the water services entities to ensure fair prices for consumers and quality of services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ECouncils across New Zealand accepted the need for change on how we run our water services. There was feedback about how the reforms could be refocused, particularly around localism. This Government has listened to these concerns and will implement new arrangements for 10 water services entities, changes to their boundaries, and ensuring that every council has a seat on its entity\u2019s regional representative group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders can agree on the basics for water in this country. However, these basics have not been met under the status quo. Proper investment in water infrastructure will also result in long-term significant cost savings for households compared to the status quo model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe recent extreme weather events we have witnessed have demonstrated how vulnerable our water infrastructure is. As the climate continues to change, more communities and assets are at risk. The window to taking action to avoid the worst impacts of climate change is closing fast. Long-term thinking is needed to set a strategic and integrated approach for water services, and I believe this reform achieves that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI would like to take this opportunity to thank those who made a submission on this bill, particularly local government and iwi, who have been engaged throughout the course of water services reform. I do want to acknowledge that it was a short select committee process with a limited time for submissions. However, this Government has been clear that it will implement its reforms before this Parliament rises. Alongside this, legislative certainty around the reform programme is needed for water sector planning and employment, and to provide clarity for ongoing transition and implementation activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI would also like to thank the Governance and Administration Committee, which considered the submissions and made more than 60 amendments to enhance the bill\u2019s workability. Let\u2019s look at some of the key changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMany councils were concerned that the legislation did not provide clarity around entity establishment dates. They submitted that greater certainty about go-live dates for the entities was crucial to enabling them to meet their planning obligations and providing assurance to affected staff. The committee has recommended that the entity establishment dates be set by Order in Council within six months of the enactment of this bill. This would allow a period of consultation with territorial authorities and mana whenua before setting establishment dates before, at latest, the first quarter of 2024. The process of determining when entities should go live will require the input and perspectives of many, including the councils, mana whenua, and the National Transition Unit. Ultimately, entities will be established when territorial authorities and mana whenua are ready, to ensure the best outcomes for their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI want to take a moment to acknowledge staff working in the water sector. I understand that this is a time of uncertainty. The committee heard from councils and union representatives on this area and in response made several key changes to staff transfer provisions. The bill now enables collective bargaining to occur with a designated representative prior to the establishment of all entities. This will enable unions to have input on the collective employment arrangements that will apply across all water services entities. This is a significant step forward for employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe bill also ensures that retention payments are to be paid to employees who transfer from their council to a water services entity. This will help councils by encouraging staff to stay employed with them until their role is transferred. It will also incentivise staff to stay in the water sector. We acknowledge that skilled staff are key to delivering ongoing mahi and driving innovation. Retaining water services staff in Aotearoa is critical to the success of the reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere were also changes to make sure the small group of Watercare staff based within the Waikato water services entity boundary will have employment continuity when the Northland and Auckland entity goes live. While initially being transferred to the Northland and Auckland entity, they will be offered a position in the Waikato entity when it\u2019s established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESome submitters sought clarity about the purpose of community priority statements. The committee recognised that these are an important mechanism for ensuring local voices and perspectives are heard, but considered the bill was unclear on who is eligible to submit a community priority statement. Incorporating a definition of \u201Celigible person\u201D will ensure individuals or organisations making statements have a clear connection to the entity service area and their organisational purpose relates to a water body.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe bill contains provisions that allow locally led volunteer merger of water services entities to occur if the communities served by their entities want this to happen. The committee heard concerns from some councils about the 50 percent threshold for a merger where it was initiated by a Crown intervention body appointed to a water services entity because of significant financial stress, irreparable governance difficulties, or inability to deliver minimum levels of service to consumers. The committee has agreed that all merger proposals must have 75 percent agreement. This aligns with other voting and decision-making thresholds across the water services legislation. The committee also agreed to include a comprehensive list of factors that must be considered when a decision on a merger is made by an entity\u2019s regional representative group. This is to safeguard good decision making around a merger and will help ensure consensus before a decision is made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESome submitters raised concerns about the ministerial powers to direct entities to share services together as being too broad. In response to this, the committee tightened the purpose for which the Minister can direct entities to share services. Ministerial directions must now be consistent with the operating principles of an entity and consider input or feedback back from stakeholders relating to the proposed direction. Directions that are made after the establishment period cannot direct the entities on how they should implement the direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the hard work of the committee, committee staff, and Parliamentary Counsel Office on this bill. They have worked tirelessly in a short time frame to improve the resilience and efficiency of New Zealand water services infrastructure. I consider the proposed amendments will help strengthen the legislation governing the delivery of our water services and ensure it is workable for water services entities and communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis bill shows how we have listened to concerns of New Zealanders and it will make sure we can all enjoy safe, reliable, and affordable water services. This is a reform that will benefit our communities, our children, and our children\u2019s children for generations to come. For that reason, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022605aa941559a4c6cb56635ea4f4bbe36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022605aa941559a4c6cb56635ea4f4bbe36\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f83ac995f9dc4176903cb8088f193cce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f83ac995f9dc4176903cb8088f193cce\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I wish I could say it was a pleasure to be standing here talking on the second reading of the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill, but with nine days left of this Parliament sitting in the 53rd Parliament, this Government is bringing the third of a trilogy of bills that are destined to make our water infrastructure and our water industry and water provision in this country worse, not better, for Kiwis across this country. That is a great shame, because the opportunity has on many, many occasions, in regards to this legislation, been there for the taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe opportunity to listen to New Zealanders across this country, to take on board their feedback and their ideas on how to solve a problem which all people in this House agree exists\u2014but that opportunity to listen to Kiwis has not been taken up. A select number of individuals have had the ability to contribute to this legislation, and as a result it does not reflect the views of all New Zealanders and that is a great shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe process in which this bill has gone through\u2014and I do want to acknowledge the work of the Governance and Administration Committee, the select committee under the auspicious chair of Ian McKelvie, who led what was a hugely challenging process. Thirty-four days was how many days that committee was given, in a truncated process, in order to consider this bill\u201434 days. The standard in this House, as a baseline, is six months\u2014six months is the baseline standard for any bill. Why? To ensure the voices of New Zealanders in our democracy can be fairly heard in regards to the changes of legislation that go through this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThirty-four days is a travesty in regards to the way in which our democracy works, and is an insult to New Zealanders in regards to complex and comprehensive legislation that affects an asset and a commodity which is fundamental to all of our lives\u2014water. That is disappointing; 1,997 people or individuals or organisations made submissions\u2014nearly 2,000 people. Don\u2019t forget the last bill before this, leading up, had 86,000 submissions\u2014that is a huge number\u2014but the select committee heard 58 of those submissions, and of the 58, 28 individual submissions were heard\u2014around 1.4 percent of that 1,997. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe heard in those submissions that many of those individuals were people that were not listened to or had the opportunity to contribute at other stages of this bill. That\u2019s what they told us. They said their voices were not able to be heard\u2014they were not able to participate in our democracy\u2014and that is after the Minister, in his first reading speech in relation to this bill, said that \u201Cthis bill represents important changes\u201D. The Minister articulated clearly and recognised and acknowledged the pressure which councils across this country are under, but only gave those councils 34 days to be able to prepare submissions, make submissions, and make consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWell, I tell you what: that\u2019s pretty hypocritical, isn\u2019t it? Because on one hand, and you heard it this morning in terms of the opening address around this bill, how hard it is for councils around this country, how difficult it is. We know that; we\u2019ve had natural disasters of massive and significant scale. Our councils, our volunteers, our communities have been absolutely hammered this side of Christmas. Tair\u0101whiti, Gisborne; in Hawke\u2019s Bay; in my home patch of Auckland\u2014significant impacts, and councillors and mayors and individuals have stepped up to the plate. They\u2019ve done more than would be expected and under difficult circumstances. Yet, at the very same time, the Minister has said, \u201CYou know what? We\u2019re going to push this piece of legislation through, making important changes, but we\u2019re only going to give you 34 days.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I think what that evidences and substantiates is a Government that does not listen, a Government that does not keep its word, a Government that Kiwis cannot trust and do not trust, and that is the reality of what we have seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENational, if given the opportunity to govern, will repeal this legislation. We will repeal this and the two other elements of legislation that come before it. Why? Because that is what New Zealanders have clearly said is what they require, and that\u2019s what we will do. Because Kiwis are the people in whom we represent in this House. They are the people which this House represents, and National will listen to Kiwis and make sure that reform in this area is comprehensive and will deal with the issues that they face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bab6f6fab23b40f5be62f670d00cc2fe\u0022\u003EHon Poto Williams\u003C/span\u003E: So\u2014status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225747a4e13ea3437aa96772a82efb38be\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: The other aspect in regards to this legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f9954d5debb40c691da4ea50370a908\u0022\u003EHon Poto Williams\u003C/span\u003E: So we go back to the old Resource Management Act, do we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226c015962a2444b0b80fe8f1132bc8ae\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which was talked about a lot leading up to that, was in regards to these regional representative groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edbac85c2fdd4795bc1c72a9d118e8b0\u0022\u003EHon Poto Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Because you can\u2019t have a vacuum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5abd874fa444a9fa6c4098e3c23b823\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: You can hear on the other side, can\u2019t you, Mr Speaker? You can hear the narrative of a Government under pressure, and I don\u2019t blame them. I understand that. You know, they\u2019ve got a Minister that is looking after this bill that yesterday is quoting that he\u2019s going to put a bet on winning the election. That is what the Minister of this bill is focused on, making bets about winning an election. Are we serious? Are we serious that that is fundamentally the biggest issue that our country faces? No, Kiwis see through that. Kiwis are sensible and can see through that this is a Government that is distracted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut I want to get back to the elements of the bill in regards to the regional representative groups, the groups that are meant to, in effect, represent stakeholders in regards to these mega-bureaucratic entities which this Government has created. One of the biggest entities is in Canterbury-Westland\u201415 councils will form part of that entity. So under the governance model, there will be a minimum of 15 representatives from the territorial authorities and 15 members from local iwi\u2014so 30 people sitting around that regional representative group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EExcuse me, Mr Speaker, for sort of having a little bit of a laugh or a joke, a bit of a cough there, because when you think about the effectiveness of having 30 people around the table\u2014think about the family Christmas. We have many people at the family Christmas, how often around that big table of 30 extended family, wh\u0101nau, are they all going to agree, right? Let\u2019s be realistic. Sometimes, with respect, even if you\u2019ve got two people at the table\u2014and maybe it\u2019s only in my own position\u2014you don\u2019t agree. But 30 is absolutely, hopelessly impractical and going to be ineffective. Yet these representatives are going to be the ones that represent and reflect the views of the communities which will be implicated by this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EDon\u2019t forget those individuals aren\u2019t democratically elected onto that governance group either\u2014not even the council representatives need to be democratically elected. So what hope do New Zealanders in our communities have to be able to influence the decision making that affects one of the most important assets and one of the most important aspects of their life\u2014the provision of water? Well, they don\u2019t have any. It is a fa\u00E7ade, and this Government have failed to listen to that feedback through the select committee process to make the changes that would, in effect, make the improvements required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m out of time, and you know, I think the points are clearly made in regards to this. This is a bill that this Government will ram through in the next nine days of this Parliament, irrespective of the opposition, irrespective of the public view that says this bill will not deliver better outcomes for New Zealanders. National will repeal this legislation and replace it with \u201Clocal water done well\u201D, comprehensive policy that will restore local ownership of assets and water assets, implement strong regulation, and, importantly, ensure there is financial sustainability. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u002298457537d5604d7b90f035132bc40e1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298457537d5604d7b90f035132bc40e1a\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m proud to be able to take a call on this bill that my select committee, the Governance and Administration Committee, has now presented to back to the House. I do want to thank our chairperson, Ian McKelvie, for handling this process and for enabling us to have robust debates across\u2014I think all parties, almost, were represented on that select committee during this process and able to hear the voices of submitters and of experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI wanted to thank our independent advisor as well, and, of course, all of the Government officials who have worked on this bill, who had tirelessly been through all those discussions with us and advised us and debated against us\u2014because I think that\u2019s the best decision making; we can have robust debates and discussions on details\u2014and also to Parliamentary Counsel Office as well for really being able to put your expertise and your experience into the drafting of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EThe Water Services Entities Amendment Bill is a bill where we\u2019ve now gone through the initial process at the beginning of our term and landed in a place where we\u2019ve listened to the voices of local councils, we\u2019ve listened to the voices of New Zealanders. As we went up and down the country when the Hon Kieran McAnulty became Minister of Local Government, he knew that local councils wanted more representation and wanted more say on their local water services entity. We balance that want and that desire against balance sheet separation. We want to make sure that we still address the problem that we had to address here with all of our affordable water legislation, which is to make sure that the Government, using its balance sheet, can actually go and fund the water infrastructures, the pipes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI can say here, probably on the Hansard\u2014I don\u2019t know if I\u2019ll be the first person\u2014but it\u2019s not sexy funding the pipes. But we will make sure that the infrastructure under the ground actually gets it right: so making sure that when there is balance sheet separation, when local government has actually hit their debt ceiling, when they\u2019re no longer enabled to be able to fund them by themselves, and, also, then, to balance that against the benefits of economies of scale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI think nothing hits home more for me than when we had the discussion about the IT systems. Currently, we have about 30 different IT systems governing our water entities throughout the country. So being able to go and procure a single system\u2014we\u2019re only 5\u00A0million people, here in New Zealand, and having different sets of IT systems throughout our country seems almost ridiculous. If we were to compare ourselves to overseas\u2014to the city of Sydney or even to a district in Shanghai\u2014then we would be able to compare ourselves. Why would we have 30 or so different systems to govern our water services? So as we balance all of those things\u2014so we balance the participation, the control, and the voice that we want our local governments to have in our water entities; as we balance the need for balance sheet separation and as we balance the need for economies of scale\u2014we\u2019ve landed it here with 10 entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI also just wanted to touch on some of those details that we\u2019ve discussed in the select committee process. One of them is to be able to give reassurance to our local government bodies when the establishment date is. So we\u2019ve promised, here in this legislation, that it would be within six months of the commencement date\u2014to give reassurance to the entities, to council, but also be able to give reassurance to the workforce as well. We do know that the water workforce is quite a specialised one, and we have experts being in some of those existing councils and entities at the moment. We want to be able to hold them over so that they can continue to be in that space for the new entities as well, because it is a really specialised workforce and I would call it even a community amongst themselves and they all know each other really well. We want to be able to retain that, especially when we have a labour market shortage at this moment as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe wanted to make sure that there were provisions and clear guidelines for mergers. We had explored whether or not we would allow mergers to happen before the establishment date, and we had actually seriously contemplated all those different ones, having heard from some mayors in particular who had that desire. But we landed on that we would give one just to make sure that there was one clear guideline, and just to make sure that the legislation, which we have now presented to the House, is a tidy one. We made sure that there were consumer forms, that there was a voice for consumers\u2019 voice to be heard\u2014for them to be embedded in this. We also made sure that there were provisions for collective bargaining together, as all of the workforce of the water entities that we honour and that we treasure so dearly, knowing that they are the ones who will have to actually do the mahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ESo this is a great bill. We\u2019ve given it a lot of consideration, term by term, so that\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022936827d572ca4866b6b5323cfdc481a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022936827d572ca4866b6b5323cfdc481a0\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Well, that was a heroic rewriting of history for the member who\u2019s just resumed their seat, Naisi Chen. I shout out to her for the hutzpah that she demonstrated. She\u2019s a diligent and hardworking member, but goodness gracious me\u2014some of the stuff she was saying: \u201CLong consideration\u201D, \u201CWe\u2019ve really worked hard on this\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis bill is the Government back-down bill, that\u2019s what it is. It\u2019s an embarrassing bill, and members on the Government side know it\u2019s embarrassing because it\u2019s worth remembering that this is yet another piece of water services legislation. But this is the legislation that changes the four - mega-entity model into the 10-entity model, which was forced on the Government by the National Party and by communities up and down the country who said, \u201CActually, you have stuffed this up from the start.\u201D We went through this rigmarole last year with the former Minister of Local Government refusing adamantly to make any changes. Under the Ardern regime, we were told that the Government had it all fine, they\u2019d sorted it all through\u2014and then, as it turns out, they hadn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe finally, at the start of this year, had the changeover to the 10-entity model, and this is the bill that gives effect to it. So what was apparently all done and dusted, perfect piece of legislative architecture and reform of local government, was all fine; and now, of course, the Government accepts the problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut the problem is the Government has stuffed this issue from the start. There is actually consensus, I think, around Parliament that we need water infrastructure reform. But the Government has gone out of its way to insult and belittle local democracy and local councils and local communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt all goes back to the absurd ad campaign that the Government ran right at the start back in 2020, I think it was\u2014Simon Watts is nodding\u20142020, in which we had these absurd ads on television run by the Department of Internal Affairs that really got the backs up of local councils, who said, \u201CWell hang on a minute, you\u2019re tarring us all with the same brush. You\u2019re insulting us by implying we can\u2019t do things better. Why don\u2019t you work with us rather than against us?\u201D The Government said, basically, \u201CTalk to the hand,\u201D from Nanaia Mahuta, \u201CI know best.\u201D Well, as it turns out, she doesn\u2019t know best and that\u2019s why she ultimately lost her job as Minister of Local Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo it all goes back to that, and now this is the tail end of what\u2019s been a pretty dire process run by the Government. So we are up for water infrastructure reform and we\u2019ve laid out a comprehensive plan to do it. The major difference between us and the Labour Government on this issue is that we will work with local councils and in partnership with them, rather than basically by dictating to them what they should do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThree points of disagreement with the Government on this bill. The first is the confiscation, and that is really important. Members can kind of belittle it or dance around the issue or obfuscate as much as they would like, but this bill confiscates the assets of local councils. There\u2019s just no doubt about that. That\u2019s what the legislation does; that\u2019s the point of it all. What it does is take all of those water assets and bundle them all up into\u2014it used to be four and now it\u2019s 10. So changing the number might make the Government feel a little bit better about life. It doesn\u2019t actually change the underlying fundamentals, which is that this is confiscation of local assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELocal communities and local councils have not been given the ability to figure out for themselves how they reconstitute their asset and their ownership structures in order to give effect to what I think everyone agrees is the right thing to do, which is balance sheet separation so that you get borrowing over the long term to make the required investments. Our view is that that should be done, in the first instance, by local councils and by local communities. So that\u2019s the first issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second issue is the mandatory co-governance that is imposed on these 10 new entities. The Government has just refused to listen on this point. So these regional representative groups that impose 50:50 co-governance on the groups\u2014the regional representative bodies\u2014the bill continues and strengthens. We oppose that provision. We do accept that M\u0101ori have rights and interests in water\u2014that\u2019s an important thing to give effect to\u2014but there is no need for 50:50 mandatory cogovernance, and the Government has never made the case properly for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn fact, we had this absurd scenario of the new-ish Minister of Local Government, the Hon Kieran McAnulty, going on Q\u002BA and basically saying that democracy was one thing in the academic textbooks but New Zealand had a different version of it\u2014which I think was news to most New Zealanders. Then the other absurdist claim that he made is that the 50:50 co-governance provisions help with the balance sheet separation, which again doesn\u2019t make any sense whatsoever. So I don\u2019t think he even really knew what he was arguing, it\u2019s just ridiculous. It\u2019s basically a continuation of what the Government had before, and they\u2019ve never properly made the case as to why M\u0101ori interests in water have to be given effect to through mandatory co-governance; they\u2019ve never made that case. Our view is it\u2019s not required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe third issue is something that has escaped a little bit of attention but is actually, I think, the most significant part of the reforms\u2014which is the Te Mana o te Wai statements that the bill gives effect to. Here\u2019s the key distinction. Under the water services legislation proposed by the Government, relevant iwi and hap\u016B will be able to issue Te Mana o te Wai statements to the water services bodies, these new entities. The water service entities must respond to them. They must.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, the Government quite rightly has been criticised for this and their way through this to make sure everyone feels equal\u2014or at least has the appearance of equality\u2014is to invent this new concept called community priority statements. The difference is this: community priority statements only have to \u201Cmay be considered\u201D by the water services entities. So Te Mana o te Wai statements \u201Cmust be considered\u201D\u2014that\u2019s mandatory\u2014but community priority statements \u201Cmay be considered\u201D by the new entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re going to end up with the situation where the only groups and the only people who can issue Te Mana o te Wai statements are hap\u016B and iwi. A whole bunch of interest groups\u2014I\u2019m thinking of, say Federated Farmers, for example\u2014or there may be a whole bunch of different groups in a particular local area. They might issue their own statement to the water services entity, and the water services entity can just go, \u201CWell, that\u2019s cool. Thanks very much for that, but we\u2019re not paying any attention to it. Because the law only says we \u2018may\u2019 consider it, but we\u2019re not going to.\u201D It\u2019s discretionary. It\u2019s flexibility. It\u2019s discretionary. So they may do it, but they also may not. But when it comes to the Te Mana o te Wai statements, that\u2019s mandatory; those bodies are in breach of the law if they do not respond and take them into account. Our view is that is grossly inappropriate and wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThen we get to the breadth of the Te Mana o te Wai statements, because there is no guidance, there are no parameters\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227798491463de48ae8d54481a1ab2581d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bishop, this is an amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d07f095dcbf4c688e8c43dc77b11fd3\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6e1874313b94d679ac9cd513216b18f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re now talking to the substantive bill, so in the time left to you, just how it relates to the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276595a7ba58b4c0e942780cb2d495629\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, clause 145C is the relevant clause. The key point is this: that the bill doesn\u2019t amend the Te Mana o te Wai and statement of community priority nexus and framework, and that\u2019s the point. The committee had an opportunity to change it and they chose not to, and that is wrong. Our view is that the breadth and the length of the Te Mana o te Wai statements is going to cause potential chaos when it comes to these water services entities\u2019 conduct and behaviour as they go forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo this is an embarrassing back-down bill by the Government. We are opposed to the confiscation, we are opposed to the mandatory co-governance, and we are opposed to the inequality of Te Mana o te Wai statements versus community priority statements. National will properly reform water infrastructure governance and regulation and funding and financing in Government. New Zealand needs it, but they do not need this retrograde bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002282b8a8a5db4e4d238e09decb31b6e6f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282b8a8a5db4e4d238e09decb31b6e6f7\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s been interesting listening to the member who has just resumed his seat, Chris Bishop, making a number of statements with regards to this bill\u2014and, Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. Kia orana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I support the second reading of this bill. The Government, as you heard the Minister this morning, talks about the reforms of the water services entity, because it is a better bill. Although the member previous to me had made a number of statements regarding our Ministers of Government, I can tell you now that, coming from South Auckland and visiting the M\u0101ngere waste-water plant, the infrastructure reforms are really, really important, particularly for iwi and hap\u016B and for communities who need the support of Government in terms of water infrastructure. Water is a taonga to iwi and hap\u016B and New Zealanders. It is really important that that side gets what this bill is talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to highlight that this bill creates dedicated water service entities, and it will have regional representation. Although we\u2019ve heard other speakers from across the House speak about why regional representation is important, I can tell you now, Mr Speaker, that, as a local elected council member, we saw quite intimately why infrastructure reform is required: so that the Government can support\u2014because councils can\u2019t afford it, they really can\u2019t. We worked, as elected council representatives, going around, having a view of the waste-water plants in South Auckland and the requirements. So this bill helps creates that infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to commend the select committee; I am not a member. I also thank the submitters who gave varying views on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ENational left us with no credibility in terms of water infrastructure. The status quo was unsustainable. Councils and CEOs needed to raise enough money to invest in water infrastructure; it is a requirement. People need clean water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWhat I want to highlight is that local councils just cannot afford it. This bill, as you\u2019ve heard, our Minister of Local Government, Minister McAnulty, went around the motu and had a k\u014Drero with many communities. The bill fits into our larger plan, and it will invest its estimation of billions of dollars over the next 30 years, because, without these changes, Kiwis across the motu would see unaffordable increases to their rates for the investment that is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWhilst I\u2019ve heard that the Minister went around and heard from communities, and then I also heard that the words in the legislation \u201Cmay\u201D or \u201Ccan\u201D, I can tell you now that the Government has been listening and is serious about investing in water infrastructure, because that clean water needs to get to our communities wherever they are\u2014urban or rural across the motu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo, Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to make a contribution. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002274dbdaaf08854514b403334d6963b91a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274dbdaaf08854514b403334d6963b91a\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. ACT engaged constructively with the Government and with officials at the Department of Internal Affairs when the three waters reforms were first proposed, because ACT agrees there is a problem with the condition of existing water infrastructure at many councils in many regions around the country. It\u2019s been run down through a lack of investment, a lack of maintenance, and there is a huge demand for growth, particularly in the major metros like Auckland, where the need to service land for future urban development and the lack of infrastructure services mean that land cannot be offered for housing. That is inducing an upward pressure on land prices and making housing unaffordable. These reforms, as proposed by Labour, will not address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to come back to the comments of some of the Labour members. The member Naisi Chen sat on the committee for the 34 days of the hearing and claimed that the committee had offered consideration for those 34 days and that the bill that\u2019s been beaten into shape somehow addresses the concerns of most of the submitters who were opposed to this amendment. I would disagree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI want to offer a perspective on the previous Labour speaker\u2019s commentary, particularly around water as a taonga. Now, water is important. Water sustains life on earth as we know it. But if we\u2019re going to confuse water having a spiritual dimension with the metaphysical, with the biophysical, then we\u2019re never going to solve this country\u2019s problems; we\u2019re never going to be able to build the infrastructure we need, deliver water for communities, for businesses, for farmers, in the places that we need it, because there will always be a cultural veto based on this concept of water and its spiritual dimensions, expressed through Te Mana o te Wai, which is the principal way of allocating water resources to find through the hierarchy of water legislation this Government has passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I want to come to some specific problems with this bill. This bill reforms the Water Services Entities Act passed in 2022, which established four water services entities. After listening to the Opposition, ACT, and all those communities which said, \u201CHey, you shouldn\u2019t take our assets and put them in four water entities.\u201D, the Government announced, \u201COK, we\u2019ll do 10. We\u2019ll do 10.\u201D Well, taking local community assets and putting them in either four or 10 entities, and removing control from democratically elected councils and their ratepayers, is unacceptable. The High Court agreed with the Water Users\u2019 Group, that took an action, that it amounts to confiscation, and confiscation without compensation is expropriation. That\u2019s called theft, Labour\u2014theft of these assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what the court ruled. But, of course, Labour has a majority. They can pass any laws they like that confiscate private property, and that\u2019s what they\u2019ve done through the Water Services Entities Act. This bill only continues that expropriation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, there are other problems apart from the theft of local assets. Ten entities\u2014well, officials and the Minister accepted that the economic efficiencies gained by having four entities are significantly diluted by having to stand up ten entities, all of the back office, all of the chief executives, and all of the overheads required to stand up ten entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT does not agree that this cost is warranted. Local councils who own the existing assets could be supported in other ways, such as by encouraging them to form council-controlled trading organisations, like Auckland\u2019s Watercare. They could be encouraged to form alliances, programme alliances, voluntary associations. They could be encouraged and facilitated to carry out joint procurement of major capital programmes and maintenance operations contracts. They don\u2019t have to be or shouldn\u2019t have to be water services that have adjoining regional boundaries, which is required by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI mean, we only have to look at Christchurch\u2019s Citycare, a council-controlled organisation, to see that they are able to undertake water maintenance contracting all around the country, not just in Christchurch. So the rationale that Labour has applied to this to support this contention that water service entities must have regional boundaries adjoining them is a fallacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I want to come to the regional representative groups. If this bill was focused on water infrastructure, better management, raising the funds, financing these big projects, creating a regulatory system that puts some rules in place so that local government and asset owners were actually meeting their community needs, providing for depreciation and funding growth, then ACT could probably have supported the intention of this legislation, But introducing co-governance entities\u2014regional representative groups made up of a dozen or more councils, a dozen or more 50:50 iwi and hap\u016B representatives\u2014actually wrecks the entire outcome of this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThere is no justification for it. I will remind the Labour members of this House what the former Minister of Local Government Nanaia Mahuta stated in answer to a written question from ACT: Simon Court to the Minister of Local Government: \u201CDoes the Minister believe that M\u0101ori have rights and interests in three waters assets built after 1840; if so, why?\u201D The Minister replied, \u201CTo my knowledge, M\u0101ori have not expressed rights and interests in three waters assets over and above those or ratepayers in their respective community of interest.\u201D There you go. Take co-governance, take allocating seats on boards based on ethnicity out of this reform agenda, because it\u2019s not necessary. It\u2019s not needed. There\u2019s no legal need. There\u2019s no Waitangi claim which insists that it be in there. The former Minister of Local Government herself stated there is no interest above that of members of a community. That is why ACT says we can do three waters reform without co-governance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT agrees that councils and their trading organisations should have much greater access to many more different types of funding and financing arrangements. Currently, the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act provides for councils, for example, to access funding by standing up a special purpose vehicle\u2014an off-the-balance-sheet fund to build infrastructure. In fact, Wellington Water is in the process of gaining approval through that very Act\u2014the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act\u2014to stand up a special purpose vehicle to fund the upgrade of the Moa Point waste-water treatment plant. The legislation already exists. ACT believes it could be improved but that the funding and financing and the balance sheet separation is already available to local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI want to come to the implementation. The cost of implementing these reforms has ballooned from $2 billion initially estimated to now $3 billion. For the cost of procuring a single information system, over $500 million has been budgeted, plus maybe $100\u00A0million more in contingency. It turns out that every council in New Zealand already has an asset management system. I worked in Auckland Council\u2014there\u2019s a large international provider that has allocated an asset ID number to every manhole, every manhole lid, and you can go on Auckland Council\u2019s geographic information system right now, and you can click on a manhole and a pipe anywhere in the city and you can get the asset information about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut this Government reckons spending $500 million on a new compulsory IT system for councils is necessary. Not only that\u2014this Government is keeping on three redundant chief executives on a pay of between $600,000 and $800,000 a year just in case a few spare chief executives are needed, who will be made redundant by the passing of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT does not support this bill passing. We will repeal it and replace it with ACT\u2019s infrastructure policy should we have the opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac0374bcba5a419a8af4bb8b59b0d0ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac0374bcba5a419a8af4bb8b59b0d0ab\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. Can I acknowledge the value of the change in Standing Orders which allows members of parties who don\u2019t have a permanent representative on a select committee to attend. I really appreciated being engaged with the Governance and Administration Committee and acknowledge the chair, Ian McKelvie, and the deputy, Rachel Boyack, for quite constructive discussions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt was a really truncated consideration period, of just over a month, which did lead to challenges, particularly for submitters, with the limited time that they had to analyse and comment on the bill. But the committee did the best job it could, and I would also like to acknowledge the work of officials from the Department of Internal Affairs, the Parliamentary Counsel Office, and select committee staff for the work that they did as well. It was a lot of work to get done in a very constrained period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Green Party had opposed the principal Act, and we continue to oppose the corporatisation ethos that\u2019s at the heart of this, but we recognise that there do need to be significant changes in the provision of three waters and that this bill does take on board the concerns of local councils and many members of the public in ensuring that there is much stronger local representation and that the entities are better connected to local communities by increasing the number of entities from four to 10. So we will be supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe also continue to oppose having stormwater connected with drinking and waste water and passing to the entities. Because stormwater is so related to planning, to the way our cities and towns grow, to the provision of green space, recreational areas, to ensuring that nature can absorb stormwater, this is a major problem in the principal Act: that it has stormwater passed to the entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut, turning to the bill, there were quite a lot of submissions about the start date, the go-live date for the entities, and quite a lot of concern about the uncertainty that having Orders in Council to establish the go-live date created, not least from the unions\u2014the PSA and E t\u016B, in particular\u2014because of the uncertainty that that created for staff and councils who will be transferring or going across to the entities. We heard quite a lot of submissions on this, and Entity A\u2014Northland and Auckland councils\u2014is the only entity that has its establishment date in the legislation. But the committee stuck with having the Order in Council process because there wasn\u2019t enough time in our truncated consideration to reach a consensus across councils, mana whenua, and stakeholders over what the golive date for each entity should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere was certainly useful feedback from the representatives of the National Transition Unit on what they had been hearing on the roadshow. There is some discussions about that, but there were changes in relation to requiring consultation before the Order in Council established a go-live date, and ensuring that those Orders in Council are released six months after the bill becomes law. So there is increased certainty there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe staff retention issue, which others have commented on, was quite a big one. The committee did consider whether there should be specific provision for the nature of retention payments in the bill, but local authorities already have an ability to offer retention payments for staff. There are some 7,500 staff working on three waters across councils and council-controlled organisations around Aotearoa\u2014people with a lot of expertise, a lot of knowledge\u2014and it\u2019s really critical that they stay in this water service space, because otherwise there\u2019s potential disruption to council services and also a loss of expertise going across into the entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo the provision that the committee inserted around collective bargaining and enabling collective bargaining to occur through the Department of Internal Affairs, or representatives that they nominate, before the entities are established should assist there in ensuring that the importance of those employees in councils and their expertise is really well recognised. There was the issue of potential loss of staff from the entities that are established first poaching others. We did understand, too, that, while retention payments in the private sector could be between 10 and 25 percent of salary, it\u2019s likely to be much smaller in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EGoing on to another issue of representation, because we\u2019ve now got 10 entities and there is now in the bill no minimum or maximum in terms of the representation from councils\u2014in terms of their numbers\u2014it\u2019s up to the councils to really negotiate that amongst themselves in the entity areas and to establish that through their constitution; other than Northland and Auckland, where the numbers of representatives from the contributing councils are set out in the bill. There\u2019s one issue here: in terms of Canterbury - West Coast, that will have 30 members on the regional representative group, and big metros, like Christchurch City Council, are potentially then underrepresented, because they may be able to negotiate with other councils that they should have more than one representative but the principal Act ensures that votes cannot be weighted; that they\u2019re all equal. So there is a real issue, in terms of that formation of the entities, about the number of representatives that goes to the metropolitan councils, so that they are truly representing their communities and the populations in those communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere are other factors in the bill, in terms of the scale of infrastructure and delivery needs, the relative urban growth and development, which can contribute to that process of determining how many representatives each territorial authority gets on the regional representative group, but groups that are 30 in size, I think, will find it quite challenging in terms of how they operate, just because of the sheer number of mana whenua and territorial authority representatives that are there. Again, the issue of balance sheet separation was really what was driving this issue of ensuring that councils are distant from key decisions. We seem to be being informed by what Standard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s wants to ensure that you get that balance sheet separation, and that is influencing the representation arrangements. So I don\u2019t think they\u2019re as democratic as they could be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne other issue that the select committee spent quite a lot of time on was shared services, because of the desire with 10 entities to retain the efficiencies that you theoretically get with four entities\u2014so the ability of the Minister to provide quite a lot of direction around what services should be shared. I understand that the Department of Internal Affairs, through the National Transition Unit, is wanting to establish a digital shared service, which will be jointly owned and controlled by all 11 entities once they are established, to operate the corporate systems, technology, how people access and store documents, how they receive emails, how they interact with customers, and also the system of record in terms of asset management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe costs of this are going to be significant. The previous member, Simon Court, talked about $500 million. The regulatory impact statement estimates that $150 million has been budgeted for the shared services work. Particularly in the IT sector, when a number of councils already have their own IT systems, just combining these or just having one multinational provide one system across the country might sound efficient, but I remember Novopay. This whole area of IT needs to have a very robust business case and very close ministerial scrutiny and accountability to ensure that we don\u2019t get some of the IT disasters that we\u2019ve seen in the past when you\u2019re going to just one system. I think it creates almost a monopoly, so it would actually be better potentially to have a couple of providers so that there is no monopoly situation with just one provider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe committee did amend some of the provisions to put a check on the Minister\u2019s power of directions and, as the Hon Rachel Brooking in making the first speech in the second reading noted, there is now no ability for the Minister to provide direction around shared services after that 1\u00A0July\u00A02026 debate, and there were some other constraints put on the Minister\u2019s power there. The bill has been improved\u2014as bills always are\u2014through the select committee process, and it\u2019s unfortunate there wasn\u2019t more time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00222e6a815cea0d43fc9476e6b2810acd3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e6a815cea0d43fc9476e6b2810acd3b\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. New Zealand is a relatively small city compared to the rest of the world. We are a long, narrow city, yes, but compared to many other nations and states around the world, New Zealand is a relatively small city. Therefore, there are things I think we have done for so long\u2014and we look back at the reforms of the 1980s in local government, we look at reforms that have gone on with the super-city in Auckland in the 2010s, we look at reforms that go on constantly throughout our nation, and in this House. We are always looking for ways and means to ensure that we care, and make sure that we do have affordable water, we do have affordable services to serve all people. This is what the Water Services Entity Amendment Bill participates in. It\u2019s listening, looking, and finding ways that we can actually do right by our communities. So therefore, I\u2019m supporting this bill today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, yesterday was a significant day in Taranaki. It was a very significant day for a number of reasons. Firstly, it was significant because it was the first time the New Plymouth District Council had their council meeting at \u014Cwae marae in Waitara. The first time they actually went and left the chamber and actually sat face to face with local iwi, and with local hap\u016B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EYesterday was also a significant day because on their agenda yesterday at \u014Cwae marae in Waitara they were discussing the Taranaki Position Statement that has been put out around the water services entities amendment\u2014around becoming an entity in Taranaki. So South Taranaki District Council, Stratford District Council, New Plymouth District Council, Ng\u0101ti Tama, Ng\u0101ti Maru, Ng\u0101ti Mutunga, Te Ati Awa, Taranaki Iwi, Ng\u0101ruahine, Ng\u0101ti Ruanui, and Ng\u0101 Rauru are all on this document looking at what this legislation is posing to implement, and to amend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESpeaking in favour of what it looks like for us in Taranaki as a combined group\u2014not only of councils, of regional council but also of iwi and hap\u016B groups\u2014saying, yes, we see our future. I want to comment on our mayor, Neil Holdom, from New Plymouth, who\u2014let\u2019s be honest, I\u2019ve had many robust conversations in his office, out and about, around the work that we\u2019re doing on three waters. We haven\u2019t always agreed, but we have agreed on many things as well. He talked yesterday\u2014and he\u2019s talked many times\u2014about the fact that change is coming, that councils in Taranaki, that iwi in Taranaki could put their heads in the sand; they could put their heads in their hands; they could ignore it; they could fight it; or they could get ahead of it. They are getting ahead of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EYesterday, the New Plymouth District Council signed up to the Taranaki Position Statement supporting the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill to ensure that an entity is established in Taranaki working together with everyone. That really encourages me, because this place\u2014and we\u2019ve heard earlier in the conversation, in the debate today, and in select committee, that it\u2019s about a contest of ideas and challenges, but it\u2019s kind of hard when there\u2019s only one side with the ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s sort of hard to have a contest of ideas when it\u2019s the ideas that we have\u2014proposing, and we hear shouting and screaming from the other side, but I don\u2019t see ideas coming from the National Party; I don\u2019t see ideas coming around how we can actually reform, and ensure that us a small city compared to the rest of the world can actually make change that actually will serve our people here in Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo this is simple legislation; this is legislation that is going to ensure better community voice. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002299059f7d53694f2b99a06b784148f975\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299059f7d53694f2b99a06b784148f975\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on the Hon David Bennett for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9726af65d374f2c9f12cec8b8d60947\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9726af65d374f2c9f12cec8b8d60947\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I had the pleasure of sitting on the committee on this bill. It is probably the most terrible bill I\u2019ve seen in my 18 years in this Parliament. It was a complete and utter farce. It was done so quickly and there was not one inkling of taking on board what people actually submitted about the bill. It was purely done for procedural, process reasons, and the Labour committee members loved every moment of it. It was a complete waste of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThere is no need for this reform. The essence of what the Government is saying is that they\u2019re going to put everybody together and suddenly we\u2019re going to have this big value increase that we can fund all these great projects from. Well, that doesn\u2019t make sense when the really big communities like Auckland, Hamilton, Tauranga, and all that, are really struggling around water issues. You look at the Auckland one, for example: Auckland\u2019s in big trouble around water. If you looked at doing stormwater for the coast so that those beaches you can actually swim in\u2014and some of the Labour members there, the North Shore beaches, you know, even the ones on the east coast of the city, if you could actually do that\u2014it\u2019s going to cost billions and billions of dollars. The only place they\u2019re getting money for from this bill is poor old Whangarei District Council that\u2019s actually got a surplus. They\u2019re using Whang\u0101rei\u2019s assets to try and rebuild Auckland\u2019s water, and that was replicated all through the country\u2014all these councils that had done a great job in managing their water are now going to be subsumed for the benefit of those that haven\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t add up. So the only thing that happens is there must be a cost blowout on ratepayers. Ratepayers are going to have to pay big money once this bill goes through. The other thing is that all the costs around this bill\u2014every single cost that came up, with IT, and all that\u2014have all been pushed off until after the entities are created so that those entities have to foot the bill. There\u2019s no cost on the Government\u2014amazing, that, isn\u2019t it? This is something that\u2019s going to make a massive change\u2014IT and everything is going to cost millions if not billions, and the ACT members said $2 billion or $3\u00A0billion\u2014and it\u2019s all put off to the new entity, with no liability on this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENow, we had council after council come in and say, \u201CWe oppose this because they\u2019re basically asset stripping us and taking those assets away.\u201D I said to them: \u201CWell, didn\u2019t the Minister come and see you on his grand tour and engage with you?\u201D, and they said, \u201CYes, he did. But then he told us at the end, \u2018I\u2019m just going to do it anyway.\u2019 \u201D There was no consultation; there was no actual regard for their views and what their communities had built up over many years, so you wonder why they are doing this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s no economic imperative because the numbers just don\u2019t stack up. There\u2019s no way that they can deliver what they\u2019re talking about from the numbers that come from council waters across the country. There\u2019s no community recognition that it needs to have this happen. The councils were opposed. So why are they doing it? The only reason is they want to enshrine co-governance of water at this stage. That\u2019s the only reason the Labour Government is doing this: they know, in their heart of hearts, this will not work, but it does enshrine co-governance of water. That is what they know and they\u2019ve been all told to be quiet, to just do what they\u2019re told to do, and pass this bill through the House. That\u2019s the reality of what we\u2019re dealing with here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe best part of it was when Rachel Boyack decided she would become the union vanguard and put these new clauses in around how the unions would, basically, be doing negotiations, and it floundered for two or three days on this issue. It was probably the most discussion that the Labour Party had, and I\u2019m sure the Minister would have had a few calls to her at night, going, \u201CWhat the hell are you doing putting that in the bill?\u201D But the Labour Party members were told what to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022add809440c7242fd8a7e5002e6e3bcd5\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Who by?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b51744e2eee0449097fffbe55d994a15\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister, completely. The Minister had no direction\u2014there\u2019s no economic reason, there\u2019s no social reason; the only reason is to enshrine co-governance. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing here today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad22ef9807d4aa89edff9abd9ab7e7d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member\u2019s time is up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u002270da21e9ec43459c8c51b4812efe306c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270da21e9ec43459c8c51b4812efe306c\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. Golly, that was an interesting speech. That was completely divorced from any form of reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EIt gives me great pleasure to stand in support of the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. I didn\u2019t have the privilege of sitting on the Governance and Administration Committee, but I commend them\u2014I nearly accidentally said \u201Ccondemn\u201D; I do mean commend. I commend them for their diligent work. Look, this bill is yet another bill that has been subject to significant mis- and disinformation, and I\u2019m not going to be pointing any fingers here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ESo what I thought would be helpful would be if I just have a little revisit of what this bill actually does do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb7254b4a704402bf95831c088d4913\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Some facts would be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231cfabe5d84477f944d6f3580980987\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT\u003C/span\u003E: This bill\u2014facts, thank you. Facts: it creates 10 dedicated water services entities, and the reason why this amendment is being made to the Water Services Entities Act, to replace four water services entities with 10, is basically because we listened. We listened to communities, and what moving from four to 10 water services entities allows for is greater community ownership of water entities. This bill also guarantees that every district is represented on a regional representative group. That voice is critically important: it establishes community priority statements that can be submitted to a regional representative group and staggers establishment dates through to 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EQuite frankly, Madam Speaker, you\u2019d have to be living under a rock not to understand that these are critically needed reforms, and you would have to\u2014I beg your pardon, Madam Speaker; not you. One would have to be financially illiterate to think that councils could afford the $185 billion that was absolutely critically important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1c1db0ba0345f6a6030046a9671d17\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb95f9314d714e6db2a59c2ba348000f\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014$185 billion, Ms Warren-Clark; absolutely unaffordable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThe bottom lines on this bill: public ownership of water services entities will continue. Balance sheet separation, which provides for operational and financial independence, is absolutely critical to allow the entities to make investments\u2014although I have to say that the phrase \u201Cbalance sheet separation\u201D is one that I have to make really slowly; it\u2019s quite a tricky one, quite a tricky phrase, quite an important concept\u2014joint oversight of the entities, and strong regulation of the entities to ensure fair prices for consumers and quality of service. All entities will be publicly owned and regionally led and everybody will be financially better off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ESpeaking to Canterbury - West Coast entity, Christchurch city ratepayers will be better off by $2,860, but the Grey District Council residents, $18,760 would have to be found under National\u2019s non-plan, uncosted, as per every single policy that they have put forward it is simply unaffordable. For that reason, I am delighted to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u00227b834276b78244fe9e3685d75a67cf2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b834276b78244fe9e3685d75a67cf2e\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s my pleasure to speak on the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. I just want to thank the Hon Kieran McAnulty for bringing this important bill before the House. I also want to thank my colleagues on the select committee for their work on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis bill continues on the work done by this Labour Government to improve the water infrastructure across New Zealand for the long term. Decades of patchy management and underfunding has left our water infrastructure in a situation that\u2019s not delivering the best outcomes for our communities. This bill represents a concrete plan to improve the standard of our water infrastructure and allow New Zealanders access to efficient and functioning water for the coming decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ELast year, a million New Zealanders received tap water that did not meet minimum drinking water standards. In 2020, 40,000 Kiwis had to boil their tap water. This subpar quality of our water infrastructure represents a real danger to all New Zealanders, and it is a burden on the health of many and represents a big inequality between those with access to clean tap water and those who do not. On this side of the House, we believe that this situation is unacceptable and we see it as our responsibility to ensure that all Kiwis have access to clean, safe drinking water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EHowever, funding for all of this work represents a huge investment. Local councils will need to find up to $185 billion over the next 30 years to finance all the work that\u2019s needed to bring our infrastructure up to that acceptable level. That will need\u2014you know, we\u2019ll need to finance that replacement\u2014hundreds of kilometres of pipes across the country; that\u2019s what\u2019s needed to upgrade the drinking water and waste-water treatment plants and to prevent waste water overflows. We\u2019ve seen a lot of that across flood-affected regions across the North Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EAs things stand now, this cost falls on local councils. Clearly, they are unable to bear this burden. Many councils cannot borrow enough money, and they are also not in a position to increase rates in their districts. So if we don\u2019t do anything, councils will be stuck spending more money to take care of their water infrastructure that is only getting worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill. It\u2019s taking bold and decisive leadership. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022371a9427e78d464a88d9d8c9b5d5729f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022371a9427e78d464a88d9d8c9b5d5729f\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ve just got this dreadful feeling of foreboding. This is Groundhog Day and it\u2019s just continual repetitive rhetoric from this Government, because here we are for the fourth time, using the time of Parliament for this Government to rush through a bill that nobody in New Zealand wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EYes, we\u2019re here to discuss the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill and, embarrassingly for the Government, this is amending a bill that was passed just six months ago. But there was such blow-back from the public and these guys saw what their polls were doing as a reflection of that, and Minister McAnulty was assigned the unenviable task of travelling around the country trying to drum up some support. He took on some bit of feedback. He\u2019s made a couple of tweaks around the edges, which is what we have in this bill here in front of us today, but, actually, it is still a dog. As the saying goes: you can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI submit to the House that the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill is a pig. If enacted, this will become the final piece of legislation aimed at the so-called reforming of the delivery of water services in New Zealand. But it is the death knell for democracy in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWhen we go to the polls in October, New Zealanders are going to remember that every single piece of reform in this four-part piece of water reform has been passed under urgency or via a truncated select committee process. New Zealanders are going to remember that. So here we have in front of us a bill that\u2019s been through a select committee, but, as Simon Watts\u2014who\u2019s leading the charge from our side of the House\u2014said, the committee was given just 34 days to consider it. Ordinarily the committee would get six months. They got over 1,900 submissions; they heard just 1.4\u00A0percent of those submissions. That is in no way, shape, or form a democratic way to pass law in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ENo matter what Labour calls it\u2014three waters, 10 waters, affordable water reform\u2014this is still the outright theft of ratepayer-owned water services and water services infrastructure. This is just another example of a command, control, and centralise operation that this Government likes to enforce and foist upon New Zealanders. We\u2019ve got a number of issues remaining with this bill. That is why we continue to oppose it, but primarily it\u2019s the functional system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe do not believe in merging locally owned water assets into these mega-entities, and I take, for example, what was once called Entity D, now Entity I, the South Island. I want to talk about my home patch in Selwyn. Under the Canterbury - West Coast merger, that includes\u2014according to this map I\u2019m holding, which has come via the select committee\u201414 different councils. Now, if you calculate out roughly, on average, about 12 elected members per council, we\u2019re looking at about 176 elected members that we, the ratepayers of Canterbury, have elected to represent us, to manage our locally owned ratepayer assets, yet those reps are going to get boiled down to about 14. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAs Eugene Sage pointed out, this does not account for weighting either, and that is fundamentally unfair. Christchurch City Council has a ratepayer base of close to 600,000 residents. Selwyn\u2019s is about 85,000 residents. But nowhere on this do we get weighted representation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EIt also begs the question that strong, stable councils like Selwyn, with good, strong asset bases and good, strong finances are inevitably going to end up cross-subsidising councils with lesser ratepayer bases and older infrastructure. Selwyn\u2019s infrastructure is, at a maximum, 20 years old. It\u2019s brand new. We the ratepayers have spent $600 million over the last 20 years in building those assets. We the ratepayers own those assets. Wellington, the Labour Government, does not own those assets. It has no right to take these assets. The people of Selwyn are furious about this. As my colleague Scott Simpson has eloquently stated, it is State-sanctioned theft. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe also have an issue with the weighting of the elected representatives on these regional representative bodies with mana whenua. Now, we have always been very clear\u2014we absolutely acknowledge and appreciate mana whenua has a very important role to play in the management of water in New Zealand. But, again, you have to ask yourself\u2014looking to this example in CanterburyWestland, where we have about 14 elected members, we\u2019re also going to have about 14 representatives from mana whenua. They have not been elected to this body. The ratepayers across Canterbury and Westland are not going to be electing these people to manage their assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe major issue we have, speaking of fundamentally unfair aspects of this bill, is also the weighting between the community priority statement and the Te Mana o Te Wai statement. Again, within this bill, the legislation will actually say that the regional representative body must take into account Te Mana o Te Wai statement, yet it may consider community statements. Now, how is that possibly fair? No right-minded New Zealander will accept this. You have to look at the discrepancies in every single aspect of this bill. There are inequities all through it. Co-governance is baked into it. New Zealanders have not been consulted on it. The Labour Government has not, in any way, put up any defence or at least any description of what co-governance should and will look like. It has just baked it into the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we do understand that in parts of New Zealand there is a fundamental need to fix our infrastructure problems. We all saw the Havelock North disaster. National was in Government; National brought in the royal commission of inquiry; National started to implement the findings of that commission of inquiry. But this bill goes too far. Yes, there are councils around the country that need support in rebuilding their infrastructure. We do support the likes of the water regulator and we also want to impose an infrastructure regulator. We want councils to bring their proposal to us, to our Minister, who will be able to sign off as to the financial sustainability of what that council\u2019s asset plan looks like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut returning very briefly to the bill in the last moments I have left, when Kiwis go to the polls in October, as I\u2019ve outlined, they\u2019re going to look at bills like this. They\u2019re going to take into account the first part of this bill that attracted 86,000 submissions that were roundly ignored and another 1,900 submissions that were roundly ignored. They\u2019re not going to forget that. They know, when they go to the polls, that this piece of legislation does nothing to provide safe quality water to their homes and to their families. We continue to oppose this bill and we will repeal and replace it if we form a Government in October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022847d9b4d369143ae8cd5691711c47458\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022847d9b4d369143ae8cd5691711c47458\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Nicola Grigg is one of the most respected members in the House, in my view. I appreciate her contribution, usually. One thing that Nicola Grigg also knows is that the pipes below the ground in the water infrastructure in Selwyn are absolutely shocking, and that National has no plan\u2014no plan\u2014whatsoever on how they are going to upgrade the water infrastructure in Selwyn, across New Zealand, and in Auckland. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ea717066704db7bad609914acdec1b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I do actually want to hear the contribution from the member. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63a9b657f4b4ef3842b1f6cb1178bb0\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a wonderful contribution because the question in the House today, of course, is: how is our country going to upgrade our water infrastructure deficit? It\u2019s $185 billion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ee1766880224626bc5377766c884dbf\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: How much? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204239cea38ae44f091b12d80514ce07b\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s going to cost New Zealanders $185 billion\u2014minimum, it\u2019s going to cost\u2014to upgrade our water infrastructure across New Zealand to get it to the place where New Zealanders actually expect it to be, and that is a lot of money. That is a huge investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EOf course, when we look at National\u2019s track record on investment in infrastructure, that\u2019s also shocking because they don\u2019t invest in transport infrastructure. They didn\u2019t invest in housing, and now they\u2019re saying that they don\u2019t want to invest in water infrastructure. These are basic fundamentals of a good New Zealand that we want to be a part of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI want to turn my attention to T\u0101maki-makau-rau, Auckland. I\u2019ve spent a lot of time sitting, when this bill was originally at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, listening to New Zealanders and listening to submissions. When we look at this piece, actually, it strengthens\u2014it strengthens\u2014the opportunities and the representation for Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EIf we look at it\u2014and if I go back to the point of the Government of the day that established Auckland Council\u2014a National and an ACT Government established Auckland Council as a supercity and established a council-controlled organisation called Watercare that actually doesn\u2019t have elected members on their representative body now. Can I say that again: it does not have elected members on their representative body, a representative body that now includes elected members and mana whenua from across the region. So my argument is that it\u2019s a better representative model for Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EAucklanders know. They saw back in last July a 9 percent increase in their water rates\u20149 percent Aucklanders are facing\u2014and yet, while National doesn\u2019t support this bill, what they haven\u2019t told New Zealanders and Aucklanders is how they are going to actually fund the upgrade of water infrastructure. They\u2019ve talked about the lack of infrastructure in this House. Simon Watts, the MP for North Shore, has talked about Wairau Valley, which had a shocking impact in the Auckland floods at the start of the year, and there is the need to upgrade that and support local businesses. I often talk about the paru\u2014the dirty\u2014beaches, and how Aucklanders on the North Shore had to close their beaches and not have access to them. This fundamentally comes back to the need for better water infrastructure for Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe conversation is: how are we going to invest the $185 billion that we need to? National doesn\u2019t have a plan because they don\u2019t invest in infrastructure. The Labour Party is the party for the investment in water infrastructure, the investment in transport, and, of course\u2014that old chestnut that we love\u2014the big investment in housing that they didn\u2019t do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud to be part of this side of the House. I\u2019m proud that we\u2019re getting on in difficult times and difficult issues and that we are happy to front up and put solutions forward. The difference between this side of the House and that side is we\u2019ve got the ideas, we\u2019ve got the plans, and we\u2019re getting on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e875b9d1d6e74d3cb3a046bf5bfe73aa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat the amendments recommended by Governance and Administration Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 7; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00223f2f3dff48ba4df4b3d2a134c4a6300e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f2f3dff48ba4df4b3d2a134c4a6300e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022825cb3cc6bb94f138e80fbf6dd84f8f0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 7; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000217\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e6803c47f5a4371a3f911dd3e4286b8\u0022\u003EEducation and Training Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bff4b7642bb499b823c330a4531feee\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002274bb99873ae449f8a0a93edf4b4cfe8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274bb99873ae449f8a0a93edf4b4cfe8b\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221941d5baf484c6c880fca575f06b3ab\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f529434bae248c2b54ff0ac3047f8a7\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No\u00A03) be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThis bill makes a number of amendments to the Education and Training Act 2020. Most significantly, it creates an enabling legislative and governance framework for w\u0101nanga. I want to thank the members of the Education and Workforce Committee for their careful consideration of this bill and for their suggestions to strengthen this bill. I also want to thank all those who took the time to make submissions and share their thoughts and suggestions on the proposals. The committee received 1,124 written submissions and heard 55 oral submissions, and it is clear from the submissions made that people care very strongly about the education system and the outcomes it is delivering for learners, families, and the broader community. I want to draw particular attention to the significance of this bill for w\u0101nanga. Their oral submissions were considered and I know the changes in this bill have been a long time coming for them. I know the committee carefully considered their oral and written submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe committee has proposed changes to the bill that mainly refine and clarify the original provisions, and I am pleased to report that the committee\u2019s amendments were agreed to by a majority of members. My colleague, the Hon Kelvin Davis, Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education) will speak to the changes proposed for the w\u0101nanga governance framework in detail, and I want to take this House through the other changes proposed by the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EOne of the proposals in the bill which generated a lot of interest throughout the select committee process is to modernise and expand the language of criteria that school boards use to co-opt or appoint members to a board. Co-option is an optional tool that boards can use to supplement their elected membership. When boards choose to co-opt or appoint a person they have to be guided by the cooption criteria as far as is reasonably practical. We know from self-reported data that only about 5 percent of all board members in 2020 were co-opted members. The bill proposes to ensure that the genders, sexualities, sexes, and disabilities of their students and school community must also be taken into account as part of the co-option or appointment decision. I want to recognise that this is a sensitive issue and that many submitters did not support this proposal. I want to take some time to now speak to some of the key issues raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EA key issue raised by submitters is that this proposal would take away from schools\u2019 and their communities\u2019 choice about who sits on their school boards. Some people preferred that instead of adding new criteria, all of the existing criteria should be replaced with a general requirement that when co-opting or appointing members, boards need to consider the diversity of their students and school community. I want to reiterate that co-option is an optional tool to help boards get a good balance of skills and perspective around the board table. The choice to co-op rests with the board or in the case of State integrated schools, the proprietors of the school. The changes provide helpful prompts to the school board to ensure that they are thinking about the diverse perspectives of their school community that will support great educational outcomes for the learners within their school. Submitters were concerned that this proposal could lead to schools having to collect sensitive information about the genders, sexualities, and disabilities of their students and school community members for the purpose of co-option. None of the existing co-option and appointment criteria require or expect boards or anyone else to collect and store information. In practice, co-option is often progressed informally, based on the relationships and networks between wh\u0101nau in the school community, such as the board reaching out to someone they know in that community who has property development or management experience\u2014as the case has been, and I\u2019ve been in that case before\u2014who can help with an upcoming property redevelopment project for the school. I believe that these new criteria, along with the existing criteria, will support boards to think about and reach out to their LGBTIQA\u002B and disabled school communities for any additional support they need to create a school culture that supports all of their diverse learners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESome people suggested that the bill should include definitions for terms like \u201Cgenders\u201D and \u201Csexualities\u201D. Currently, definitions are not included for any of the existing co-option and appointment criteria. To be consistent with this approach, the bill does not propose to define the terms in the new criteria. I also do not consider that further specifying what the terms \u201Cgenders\u201D and \u201Csexualities\u201D mean would be appropriate, responsive, or at least enduring. Society\u2019s understanding about gender and sexuality is evolving, and the broad terms used in this bill will ensure that the criteria can be inclusive of the diverse range of perspectives that people hold within these communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe committee made two minor changes to this proposal to clarify the language in the bill. For consistency, the committee made a change to ensure that the co-option and appointment criteria relating to ethnic and socio-economic diversity and the genders, sexualities, and sexes apply to both the student body of the school and the school\u2019s community as defined in the Act. The new criterion relating to disability already included a reference to the school\u2019s disabled community. The committee also made a change to separate the existing criterion of the ethnic and socio-economic diversity into two criteria. This is to respond to a point a submitter raised that ethnicity and socio-economic status are not always linked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI want now to turn to the other changes that the select committee proposed. For the proposal to allow the Ministry of Education to access data from Statistics New Zealand relating to early childhood education services. The committee has recommended a change to the drafting to clarify that the disclosed data can only be at the level of an early childhood service and cannot include personal information within the meaning of the Privacy Act 2020. The only exception is for an early childhood service that is operated by an individual, such as a sole trader, where the data would be considered personal information. These service providers must consent to the publication or disclosure of their information before it can be disclosed. For police vetting, the committee made a change to include a requirement that when undertaking the risk assessment based on police vets, early childhood education services and schools must take into account any guidelines on risk assessments issued by the Ministry of Education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe university and w\u0101nanga remuneration reporting: the committee recommended that a university or w\u0101nanga will also report the compensation and other benefits of an employee or former employee, including the chief executive, if the total remuneration is $100,000 or above.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EAnd finally, for the proposal to broaden the regulation-making powers in the Act in respect of school opening hours, the committee received advice from the Regulations Review Committee with suggestions to make the policy intent clearer. The Education and Workforce Committee has recommended a small change to this proposal to insert standard text into the Act specifying that a notice issued by the Minister of Education to set school opening hours as secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI am certain that this bill will support a more enduring and responsive education system, benefiting learners and wh\u0101nau across New Zealand. I am pleased to commend the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3) to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221b42b6a3ac8f4d68bb75fb5f7ab7ee76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b42b6a3ac8f4d68bb75fb5f7ab7ee76\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002288f8772d07284126bb043882aa2de8ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288f8772d07284126bb043882aa2de8ed\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. So I rise on behalf of the National Party to speak to the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3) and to advise that we will be opposing this bill, even though there are a lot of things\u2014in fact, the majority of the things in it we support, but there are a couple of points that we oppose for different reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo the bill has a number of parts to it: the school board election process; the child protection for early childhood education changes; some changes in the tertiary area, specifically a new framework for w\u0101nanga; and also the annual report requirements for universities, and some other bits and pieces. But the key messages are really that we don\u2019t support the changes in the criteria for the appointment of school boards. We believe that it\u2019s absolutely important that the school boards reflect the community in which they serve, but the most important thing for school boards is that they have the expertise to effectively run schools so that they can lift the outcomes of Kiwi kids so that they can get excellent and world-class education. That must be first and foremost in the school board\u2019s mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe current law already allows that as far as reasonably practicable, every school board should reflect the character, gender, and the ethnic and social diversity of the school community. Our differing view in the summation of this bill was that the make-up of the school boards should be skills-based and reflect their community and that should be set out in legislation, however, attempting to list every possible characteristic, as this bill tries, is not appropriate, and, in fact, can be limiting and problematic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo the legislation, we believe, should simply state that as far as is reasonably practicable, every board should reflect the diversity of their students and school community. So we will be, in the committee of the whole House, putting up a Supplementary Order Paper to seek to change this to simply \u201Cas far as reasonably practicable, every board should reflect the diversity of their students and school community.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe other area that we have some concerns about\u2014and I\u2019ll start by saying that we absolutely agree with the changes to enable w\u0101nanga to elect to be Crown or non-Crown entities, but we believe there were two further parts to this where it should have gone further, and that was around the protection of the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D, and also the names for Crown or non-Crown entities. As it stands, they will be called \u201CA w\u0101nanga\u201D, \u201CB\u00A0w\u0101nanga\u201D, or \u201CC w\u0101nanga\u201D. Quite frankly, I think for the point of a few more weeks of consultation, the w\u0101nanga would have come together themselves and come up with alternative terms. It just feels wrong to be saying \u201CA w\u0101nanga\u201D, \u201CB w\u0101nanga\u201D, and \u201CC\u00A0w\u0101nanga\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI think, perhaps, a lot of people won\u2019t know of the very proud history of our three incredibly important w\u0101nanga, and the reason why this Crown or non-Crown entity categorisation is really important. Most of our tertiary institutions\u2014particularly our polytechnics\u2014came from things like technical colleges, so they were born out of Crown entities. But the w\u0101nanga most definitely weren\u2019t, and they have incredibly proud histories of how they developed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe first w\u0101nanga was in 1981, Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa, and they arose from their very strong iwi base, who wanted to ensure that tikanga and te reo M\u0101ori were protected. So they have that very strong iwi history to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ETe W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa, which I had the privilege of working alongside as a partner for over two decades, they have a different history again. They are pan-iwi, but they started from one single, very passionate, focused man, my respected friend Rongo Wetere, who mortgaged his own dairy farm to be able to start up the w\u0101nanga in Te Awamutu because he was concerned at the number of young M\u0101ori that were being excluded from their schools, and that w\u0101nanga now is an extremely large entity. At one stage, they had over 30,000 equivalent full-time students and were the biggest tertiary entity in this country. I think they\u2019ve settled at around about 19,000 or 20,000, but still a very large tertiary institution that is run by my friend Nepia Winiata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ETe Whare W\u0101nanga o Awanui\u0101rangi has another proud history to it that it was started by the wellrespected Sir Hirini Moko Mead, who decided in the late 1980s that they should establish a whare w\u0101nanga, and for five or six years he was passionate and the group around him were passionate about pushing this concept. They opened in Whakat\u0101ne with a very modest campus in 1992\u2014just a couple of transportable classrooms\u2014but I can tell you that campus is no longer modest. It\u2019s a beautiful campus in Whakat\u0101ne, which I have had the privilege of being welcomed into, and that w\u0101nanga is extremely well run by, again, my friend and colleague Wiremu Doherty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why this is such an important amendment for the w\u0101nanga. They didn\u2019t start from a Crown entity; they started from the passion and the vision of their iwi or individuals who knew the importance of education, and I feel that we haven\u2019t done enough in this legislation to recognise that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENow, again, people mightn\u2019t understand that the term \u201Cpolytechnic\u201D and \u201Cuniversity\u201D are protected terms, but we haven\u2019t been able to protect the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D. Now, it\u2019s complex. It\u2019s a difficult thing to do, because \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D is a very distinctly M\u0101ori term. There isn\u2019t an English equivalent of it. It\u2019s about open discussion and people gathering together and bringing different thoughts and opinions and experiences together. So it\u2019s very specific to M\u0101ori, and so it is used as a verb as well as to describe these three tertiary institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EBut because it\u2019s difficult doesn\u2019t mean we should have shied away from it, because I believe this legislation will be more the poorer for not having that consultation, for not allowing M\u0101ori to decide how they wanted that protection of the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D to play out. So that concerns us that for the sake of a few weeks of extra consultation\u2014and it would have been something that M\u0101ori would have worked together over both getting terms for a Crown or non-Crown entity, rather than being called \u201CA w\u0101nanga\u201D, \u201CB\u00A0w\u0101nanga\u201D, or \u201CC w\u0101nanga\u201D, and also come up with a methodology in which we could give the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D the protection that it deserves alongside universities and polytechnics. So they are the reasons why we oppose this bill. They are things that perhaps could be fixed as we go through the process, but our key concern is around those two matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI suppose the other concern is that the bill doesn\u2019t address any of the major issues facing the education system in New Zealand that\u2019s failing to provide world-class education for our Kiwi kids. It seems to be bizarre to be in the House discussing an education bill that doesn\u2019t even mention that we are declining in world terms, in fact, around our maths and our English and how we are getting young people prepared for work. It doesn\u2019t say anything about the fact that half of the students are not able to get to the right level for reading, writing, and maths, and that fewer students are leaving school with NCEA level 2, which the OECD says is the minimum required to be able to meaningfully engage with the labour market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo with all those sort of catastrophic things that are occurring in our education space at the moment, it seems slightly bizarre to be worrying about the terminology of the make-up of school boards, when, in fact, we want school boards to be the best people there possible, to run the best possible schools, to give our students the best possible education and opportunities in life, and yet it\u2019s completely silent on how to get kids back to school, how to ensure that our schools are giving worldclass education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo we are opposing this bill, but, as I said, there are an awful lot of things in it that we support, but we think it could be a much better bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00227028af1d3ab14dd0a5c9fef234fce2d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227028af1d3ab14dd0a5c9fef234fce2d2\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3). It was a pleasure to be a part of the Education and Workforce Committee when this bill was considered. I want to thank all members of the committee and all the submitters that came to the committee\u2014I think, actually, reflecting the tone of the last member\u2019s speech: that on most issues we worked really well together and there was quite a significant part of common ground in relation to what we sought to be achieved by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, although this is an amendment bill, it does cover a number of different areas, and it would be literally impossible to cover all of those areas, because there are so many distinct areas, in the short time that we have available. The Minister of Education has covered off, I believe, very well, the issue of representation of boards, and so I won\u2019t seek to repeat that, but I affirm the comments that she\u2019s made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI would just like to touch on some of the main parts of this bill, which I do think are important, and that\u2019s the new governance framework in relation to w\u0101nanga. There was, as I said, a lot of agreement between members of the committee on this issue, and I think the main difference was how we went about achieving that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe were very impressed and very grateful to the w\u0101nanga that submitted to us on this bill. I have to say, it was probably one of the most impactful submissions that I\u2019ve seen in my time in Parliament on a select committee. They spoke very eloquently, and the entire committee was very impressed by their advocacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThey had been very supportive of this bill. The reason that we were unable to move forward with the protected term matter in relation to \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D that all of us saw on the committee saw as an issue, is because there is a little bit of work that needs to be done because there are some entities that use the word \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D. It is a M\u0101ori word with a specific term, and it has been used by other entities, and so protecting that term is not as straightforward as you might think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThat doesn\u2019t mean that we didn\u2019t see that there was a large issue with the fact that we had protected terms for \u201Cpolytechnics\u201D and for \u201Cuniversities\u201D, but not for \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D; we saw that as an inequity, and for that reason we made a very strong recommendation on our select committee report and recommended as a matter of priority that the Government undertake full consultation of policy work with the aim of legally protecting the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo it was something that we saw as important. We were unable to, in the time that was available, do that consultation, and that was also at the direction of the w\u0101nanga who said they would prefer the governance arrangements to be in place, and they didn\u2019t want this bill to be delayed. So that\u2019s, that\u2019s the reason for that, but it is something that, as I said, the committee as a whole was very supportive of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe other thing I just want to touch on briefly is the use of the terms \u201Ccategory A w\u0101nanga\u201D and \u201Ccategory B w\u0101nanga\u201D. Those are placeholder terms which allow for more appropriate terms to be put in place by Order in Council at a later date. The reason that we did that was because of the strong advocacy that we heard from the w\u0101nanga when they came to talk to us. We were unable to find agreement after their submission on the exact terms to be used, and it is a big decision, so it was decided that this term would be used. It has, in fact, I think, been used in another similar situation: naming of Te P\u016Bkenga\u2014as I understand, an Order in Council to put into the legislation a more appropriate term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThose are the two issues that I wanted to highlight in what is a very important bill. There\u2019s also some important matters which haven\u2019t been traversed that much on police vetting for non-child workers, and there are guidelines to strengthen having the people possibly in contact or near children to make sure they go through an appropriate police vets. So that\u2019s another important aspect of this bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022562de1522e9745b28f424331085feaa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022562de1522e9745b28f424331085feaa4\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Following on from my colleague Penny Simmonds, who with my colleague Erica Stanford both sat on the Education and Workforce Committee for this Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3). As has been declared and disclosed, the National Party opposes this bill for a number of reasons. I think the most important and pressing reason is that it\u2019s noted that this is a debate under urgency, and as is the case \u201Cunder urgency\u201D means that there is often a truncated process and that due process does not occur in terms of that level of engagement with our New Zealand public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI turn to the gallery and I acknowledge members from Te Whare W\u0101nanga o Raukawa, who are present here\u2014Robin Hape with others\u2014who have come and travelled down for this important debate. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI have noted I didn\u2019t sit on the select committee and that I\u2019ve been called in as a member of the National Party to address this House under urgency on this debate. Therefore, the knowledge that I have is somewhat limited, not being a member of that committee, but it\u2019s not limited in terms of where we have legislation trying to define M\u0101ori concepts and M\u0101ori ways in existence of who we are, what we are, and our level of engagement. And therefore, I understand that this bill is attempting to confine and limit what the concept of w\u0101nanga is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI\u2019m aware from having read the select committee report that this bill was referred to the select committee on 28 March this year. Submissions were called for with a closing date of 1 May 2023, and my colleague Penny Simmonds has indicated to me and also to the House that extensive submissions in that truncated short time were heard from the representatives from the three whare w\u0101nanga throughout Aotearoa New Zealand. There were written submissions from 1,124 interested groups. Oral evidence was heard from 55 of those submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve often referenced in the House, I speak premised from associations of my lifetime and experience. And although I don\u2019t come from an educationalist background, my background is around child welfare and protection. An element of this bill that addresses child protection is around the improvement of safety for children at schools and early childhood education centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ENational supports the intent of the bill insofar as every child should be safe whilst attending school, every parent deserves to know, as guardians, and every caregiver that their child will be safe and that everything is done to ensure a child\u2019s safety whilst under the ambit of that protection and umbrella at school. So the National Party does support changes to automatically change the eligibility criteria of school boards so that everyone convicted of an offence, as is outlined in Schedule 2 of the bill, is automatically ineligible to serve on a board unless exempted by the Secretary of Education. So as spokesperson for children and Oranga Tamariki, that background in terms of child welfare, safety, and protection, I\u2019ve always advocated as being front and foremost of mind for me. So it\u2019s important to declare the National Party intent is in support of this element of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve indicated, the differing view is around that in terms of the composition and make-up of school boards, that should be premised on skills based and competency, and to reflect the community that the representation of those members of the board come from. So the National Party takes the view that it\u2019s not deemed significant or relevant within this bill to identify the diversity of the school in that community that they come from. That is for the community and for the board members to do so, not for this Government in the very paternalistic approach and stance that it takes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe members also believe that the bill should have been delayed in order for the whare w\u0101nanga and those persons who come from that w\u0101nanga and also the concept in terms of m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u2014what that is and for those persons to agree on alternative terms for Crown entity w\u0101nanga and non-Crown entity w\u0101nanga. These are intellectual property issues. Should this Government again be dictating what the construct of that is? That is for our people, te ao M\u0101ori, and those working in this specialist area to define, not for legislation to confine. And that\u2019s what the National Party stance and view is that this legislation is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also noted, in the differing view within the select committee report, that the proposed Order in Council mechanism that would be used to replace the placeholder terms of w\u0101nanga is not being protected under this bill. So my contribution is somewhat limited in terms of time, at this point in time, but I\u2019ve referenced that again I speak from a premised association and relationship. I\u2019ve mentioned that my service has been around child welfare protection and the law. I do not come from an educational background or that sector, but the relationships that I have, and I refer to Te Whare W\u0101nanga o Raukawa and Matua\u2014and Professor\u2014Whatarangi Winiata, in terms of having led and been a guiding light still with the establishment of Te Whare W\u0101nanga o Raukawa; and many of my wh\u0101nau from Whanganui travel through still on a regular and daily basis to attend for their learnings and the contributions that we take home from \u014Ctaki Raukawa back to where we come from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo in terms of relationships, again the association and correlation, Professor Whatarangi Winiata, in terms of his learnings, he shared with me at one stage that as a young man, when he was a university student here at Victoria University, he learnt from my koro Hori Hipango in his earlier days. And I refer to the words that Matua Whatarangi referenced and said that in his student days, back in the 1960s, he would travel through to Te P\u016Btiki, Whanganui to w\u0101nanga with my koro in terms of the reo and in terms of as a young man learning from one of the kaum\u0101tua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo the concept of w\u0101nanga isn\u2019t something that should be legally defined and constrained within such a short period of time, when we\u2019ve had the representatives from the three whare w\u0101nanga through our Aotearoa make submissions. The point of concern is that this is something that is the intellectual property and construct and concept that comes from te ao M\u0101ori, should it be confined and defined at short notice within this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo that is the contribution that I make at this point in time. This is the second reading, I believe. The bill will come back to the House. The National Party has indicated that it will be presenting a Supplementary Order Paper for improvement of this legislation that is being rushed through in such a short time. And on the basis of the contributions that have been made, the National Party does not support this legislation as it attempts to construct and define something that really should be left to those who know better than the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u0022905c272fbd884f388f9f1bf14abcee31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022905c272fbd884f388f9f1bf14abcee31\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3). As the Minister of Education said, this bill makes a number of amendments in education. It contains policies and minor and technical amendments to existing provisions in the Education and Training Act 2020. These changes progress the education work programme, and contribute to the continuous improvement of education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThe bill focuses on three main things: establishing a governance framework for w\u0101naga, changes to school board ineligibility criteria, and changes to school board election processes. As the Minister stated, we heard from a range of submitters: 1,124 in total, 55 oral submitters. I had the privilege of chairing the Education and Workforce Committee meetings while our capable chair was away and I was in charge of the meeting while submitters expressed their strong views\u2014some strongly in favour of the bill and some obviously in opposition to some parts of the bill\u2014but one thing is that the leaders of w\u0101nanga submitted to us and they clearly and loudly recommended that the bill passes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EAs a Government, our job is to hear from people and that we are acting on recommendations that they strongly make. Now, when I hear speakers on the other side of the House saying that we are not listening to people and leaders of w\u0101nanga, it kind of confuses me. But I\u2019d like to make a point that we appreciate very conflicting views\u2014people who strongly opposed some parts of the bill and vice versa\u2014but the point is this bill is going to amend the education system itself. It\u2019s a part of the continuous work that\u2019s being done by the Minister to improve our education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to commend the committee for their hard work. We didn\u2019t agree on things, but nonetheless, we had respectful discussions around the table, and I\u2019d like to thank people that who took the time to submit to our committee. As a result of the submissions, the committee made a range of recommendations and amendments. As a result, the bill came out at the rest of the day looking better than it was at the beginning of our deliberations. Finally, it\u2019s a good bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00221483182a81e6460f84c2c94615fe913b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221483182a81e6460f84c2c94615fe913b\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and speak on behalf of ACT to the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3). I like to also thank all the submitters\u2014almost 1,200 submitters\u2014who often submitted with a lot of passion and personal contributions. There were many parts to the bill, covering all sorts of areas of the education system. And there were a number of the parts of the bill that ACT initially did oppose that have been clarified and improved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003ELooking at just a couple of parts of the bill that have been already mentioned, the eligibility criteria of school board members all sounds good\u2014if you are convicted of a specified offence, you\u2019re ineligible to serve on a school board unless an exemption has been approved. That sounds pretty reasonable. There is a potential for abuse of that clause, I think, and we sort of have to ask whether we believe in rehabilitation or not, but for the safety of the kids we certainly agree with that addition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe early childhood education equity index data, which will enable the ministry to collect accurate information to make further recommendations, sounds a great idea. Police vets for non-teaching employees and contractors\u2014that just really makes sense; nothing can be more important than the safety of our kids. Certainly it\u2019s paramount, and as long as common sense is used with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThere has been clarification around the accountability with changes to the w\u0101nanga, and it\u2019s been explained a bit further this morning already. Well, the structures and funding\u2014both have been strengthened and are a bit more transparent. We think that all education facilities should be under the same umbrella and accountable to the taxpayers who fund them, and we do still think that a number of the changes aren\u2019t necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EI listened to the w\u0101nanga submitters, and fully understand the reasons they gave for the changes that they supported, and I think the advent of the w\u0101nanga was very well explained by Penny Simmonds earlier on. But the success of the w\u0101nanga is undeniable, and if it ain\u2019t broke, why fix it? They are a great entity and you just wonder whether all of these changes are necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EListening to a number of the submitters did also make me feel a little bit sad: the idea that young people are identified first by their race and then as individual people capable of doing what they want and being who they want to be sort of seems to come a distant second. I just think that\u2019s wrong. In my 22 years of classroom teaching, coaching school sport, taking school orchestras, the idea of treating students differently because of their race never crossed my mind. And my 14 years of being a police officer, with many of those years working in youth aid, dealing with all sorts of young people and their wh\u0101nau\u2014the idea of treating those kids differently I find abhorrent, and that may be laughable to those people across the other side. Culture is, of course, always important, but it always has been, and it\u2019s not just suddenly been invented by this Government, and separatism, we don\u2019t believe, is the way forward; it\u2019ll only end in more divisiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EBut the reason we cannot support the bill is the proposed change to the school board election process, and the clause that reads, \u201Cupdating the criteria for co-opting and appointing board members to reflect today\u2019s school communities, by adding the genders, sexualities and sexes of the school\u2019s students and of the school community, and disabled students at the school and the school\u2019s disability community.\u201D Once again, we have the desire of this Government for more control over how a school is governed, and it\u2019s just not right. The lack of trust in principals and boards of trustees is a common thread in most of this Government\u2019s thinking. ACT trusts principals and boards because they are the ones that know their community, know the people they\u2019re dealing with. Submitters overwhelmingly rejected this proposed change, and their concerns must be listened to. That\u2019s what happens in a democracy. The inclusion of this clause is unnecessary virtue-signalling and it\u2019s one we cannot support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe bill has some parts that are good, some that are unnecessary, and some that are controversial\u2014certainly not scared of the controversial ones. There are many other things in education we should be working on, and this is more about ideologies and agendas where we should be thinking about the kids we teach. This isn\u2019t best for our kids and we cannot support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u00225a979510ccfe4fb788adf60c8e868016\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a979510ccfe4fb788adf60c8e868016\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I come to this bill, the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3), to express the support of the Green Party of Aotearoa, not as the education spokesperson but having been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277ee9fd22e0341849a83c213a371bfbc\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: To school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c741aac9045417291e7961f43817581\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the education spokesperson\u2014and to school\u2014last term, I know that this is a dense sector. There is a lot to be considered at every level, from early childhood right up to the end of high school and tertiary. There are unions, there are teachers, principals, and young people and their families, all with a great stake in the way that we run our education system. I do want to commend the Education and Workforce Committee, who heard submissions on this bill. I know that that would have been hard work, there would have been a lot to consider, and it sounds like they have done that work and they listened carefully to what came. But I also know that, in terms of making any system fair, there is a need sometimes to lift the voices and interests of those who are more systemically marginalised to give effect to what we want in terms of substantive equality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI think that that\u2019s where the division has occurred in this House today: the idea that the majority rules or that at some point we will stop and we will recognise that there are groups that have been underrepresented and that underrepresentation actually makes our decisions weaker. Any governance body\u2019s decisions will be weaker if that governance body does not have the benefit of the lived experiences, perspectives, and challenges of groups who are not the majority, who are experiencing particular challenges that would not come to the minds of a majority member of that community\u2014a status quo member of that community; someone who\u2019s not facing those challenges. And that\u2019s what comes to mind with the decision to require school boards to be more representative of their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EOf course, principals and other board members will want to be fair and just to a disabled young person attending their school, but the idea that they would automatically know what that looks like is just wrong. We know that; we are a House of Representatives. We know that, when people fought for representation of women in here, for example, it wasn\u2019t the case that we thought men were going to deliberately make decisions that were poor for women, but the fact remains that only a woman in New Zealand will know what the challenges look like for us as we access the healthcare system, the roads, the justice system, and, in this case, the education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo whether that is to say that a community who has a constituent who is from a migrant background, migrants of colour, will experience the school system differently\u2014M\u0101ori will experience the school system differently; girls will experience the school system differently; queer students and their wh\u0101nau will experience the school system differently; and, of course, so will disabled and chronically ill students and their wh\u0101nau. To say that we will just take care of that, we\u2019ll just automatically know what that looks like, well, that\u2019s been dispelled, surely, many years ago, in particular for a House such as this, a House of Representatives. That\u2019s why we hear submissions, actually, because we know that we don\u2019t know everything. So, to have a decision-making body, a governing body, be more representative can only mean that its decisions will be far more sustainable, far more cognisant of not only challenges but also the benefits that may come to different groups in different ways. It\u2019s something that should be commended and replicated across New Zealand. So, for that reason, I do commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EBut I do also want to just touch on a couple of other things. I\u2019m surprised that, in the early childhood index data area of this bill, that wasn\u2019t already the case. I think it\u2019s also commendable to say that the ministry will be able to form better policy\u2014again, more sustainable policy; more representative policy\u2014for having more reliable, substantive data in that early childhood sector. We know that early childhood education is of absolute, paramount importance, and it hasn\u2019t always received the type of attention and emphasis that it deserves. I say that both in terms of the pay grade of those who work in that sector but also in terms of, it seems, as this bill highlights, collecting actual data of what\u2019s happening in that sector, what we need to invest in, and the decisions that will come down the line will absolutely be stronger for having that data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t go on for much longer, having not sat in that select committee process, but I do believe that any time this House comes together to actually share what we know will strengthen governance bodies, will strengthen representative decision-making, and to ensure that we don\u2019t just leave it up to chance that those voices are heard and those interests are protected in public policy, but that we make sure of that, is good lawmaking. So I do commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022997d86d42dce431ca2a58e3910d333ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022997d86d42dce431ca2a58e3910d333ac\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to rise as a member of the Education and Workforce Committee that considered the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3). I just want to reflect a little bit about the select committee process. For me, I think what was really unique was the collaboration, the care and consideration that meant that, especially when it came to the part of the bill about the new governance framework for w\u0101nanga, it was something that we were confident was what was needed. Te ao M\u0101ori, it\u2019s not my world, and I know a little bit about what I don\u2019t know. So I\u2019m very grateful for the very clear guidance, and the collaboration that brought the bill to where it was, and helped us to navigate those two really tricky issues which I really appreciate being brought to the House today from the other side about the term, the name, the concept, to use clunky English words about w\u0101nanga and those placeholder terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI think we we\u2019ve got clear guidance that that is the work that needs to go into that. The consideration and care that must go into that work, that unfinished business, needs to continue and not be truncated, and that was the whole point. Let\u2019s do this that has been asked of us by w\u0101nanga so they can get on with doing the amazing things that they do, enable them, and at the same time enable the very important mahi that has to happen around that consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EActually, from this process will grow wonderful things, because that conversation, for those of us who don\u2019t innately know what w\u0101nanga means, is given so much by being able to participate and hear and learn. So it is because of that that I\u2019m grateful for the process that we\u2019ve been through so far, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224cd2a52e7b1c4b1eb0952265768ec4d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cd2a52e7b1c4b1eb0952265768ec4d5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Michael Woodhouse\u2014a five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00223e8f38673c4444a1838da82bd3926474\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e8f38673c4444a1838da82bd3926474\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m paraphrasing, but I\u2019m pretty sure I heard the Minister of Education, when she moved this bill at second reading, something to the effect of \u201CThis bill will contribute to great educational outcomes for our children.\u201D That kind of surprised me, because, in my travels, I\u2019m sure\u2014and members can correct me if I\u2019m wrong\u2014I haven\u2019t heard a single pupil, parent, or teacher say to me, \u201CI really wish the criteria for coopting and appointing school board members would be expanded, and I really wish those great w\u0101nanga were Crown entities rather than independent. And I really want to know, in brackets of $10,000, how many of their staff are earning $100,000 or more so that they can be aligned with other Crown entities.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThat is not what teachers, parents, and pupils are telling us about the education system, and it does feel like Minister Tinetti is Nero, fiddling once again with the education Act while the educational Rome is burning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWe could be doing so much more to improve the educational outcomes that we all want for the children and the young people, the rangatahi, in our tertiary and secondary and primary facilities. But instead, we focus on identity and structure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI was very grateful to Penny Simmonds for her contribution in the second reading, who gave an excellent summary of the history and origins of w\u0101nanga. That\u2019s continued a pattern this week, where she was in the Education and Workforce Committee yesterday, quizzing Te P\u016Bkenga, who finally\u2014finally\u2014eight months later, furnished their financial report, their annual report, and highlighted what a shambles that merger has been for tertiary education in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EYet, faced with the disaster of the merger of very good polytechs, a lot of them, Southern Institute of Technology, not the least of them\u2014and not the least of which was the reason being that Penny Simmonds was their chief executive for over 20 years. They continue to restructure and rearrange and centralise and increase control and tell boards what to do and how to be appointed rather than the central goal, which is \u201CLet\u2019s improve educational outcomes.\u201D, because that, after all, is the purpose of the Education and Training Act 2020. We have lost an opportunity to focus on the burning bridge\u2014the burning bridge of the woeful educational outcomes under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIt is really important the low-decile NCEA 2 outcome data that was released this week is scandalous. It is so important, because, by my recollection, a previous Minister has highlighted that by 2050, half of young New Zealanders will identify as M\u0101ori or Pasifika. Unless the educational outcomes for that growing cohort are made equal to the rest of the population more generally, this country is going to have a real problem. It\u2019s emerging now, and the Government is worried more about the identity of the board members on our schools than the educational outcomes for our schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo while there are some things in here that may have been necessary and appropriate, the central point is that this Government cannot resist tinkering around the edges of a system rather than\u2014and the activity that is the substitute for performance, rather than expecting and guiding and influencing better outcomes for our children and our young people in w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThat is a deep, deep disappointment to the National Party. Help is on the way. I think we\u2019re down to 72 days. I look forward to a time when a Government focuses on the things that matter: outcomes, not activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002251de868fcfc24a2986f842c74854562f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251de868fcfc24a2986f842c74854562f\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to make a contribution to this debate, with regards to the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3). May I please take the time, firstly, to thank the members of the Education and Workforce Committee and also the submitters and also the officials. The submitters came and provided to the committee many, many views on this bill. I also want to acknowledge iwi and hap\u016B who also came along and provided their views, whether written or oral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThis is a second reading of the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3), which contains new policies and minor technical amendments in the existing provisions. The bill establishes a governance framework for w\u0101nanga and also an eligibility criteria on school boards and also election processes. We heard w\u0101nanga who came to the select committee, and we listened to their k\u014Drero, and we listened also to their mana and their wairua when they presented to the select committee. As a select commission member, I was very grateful to hear their k\u014Drero and p\u0101tai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI have heard other members across the House mention that the terms of \u201Cw\u0101nanga A\u201D and \u201Cw\u0101nanga B\u201D, and I disagree with the point that the member on the other side has made: that the select committee were limiting w\u0101nanga. Actually, it was the opposite. It was to hear the k\u014Drero, see the wairua, and really feel it\u2014that they have a strong, strong wairua to include those values in this kaupapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI move now to the school board ineligibility criteria. That is listed in terms of if you have committed or you are convicted under Schedule 2 of the Children\u2019s Act 2014, you are ineligible to become a member unless you have a special pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EFor the last two decades, I served school committees and school boards. The chair of that committee and the chair of that school board worked very hard with the members. Even though there were Ministry of Education guidelines and specific rules, I know that the members that I worked with on those school committees and the school board\u2014it was in their strong interest to keep our tamariki safe. This bill does that. This bill enhances what the current rules are and strengthens the school board election processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EJust to finish, one of the school boards that I served on\u2014it was very important to hear rangatahi voices. We did not have that lever at the time. If we\u2019re going to talk about rangatahi, if we\u2019re going to talk about our young people, we need to have them at the table. This bill will enhance that. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b94f7400ab7b461c8aaa287ddacfb471\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b94f7400ab7b461c8aaa287ddacfb471\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This bill will make a range of small but very comprehensive changes to the Education and Training Act 2020 to improve our education sector. It\u2019s been great to hear the contributions from other members on this side of the House, particularly those who have worked in the coalface and know how much of a difference this bill will make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThe first change that this bill makes is that it will establish a robust governance framework for w\u0101nanga. The w\u0101nanga are tertiary institutions that assist in the application of knowledge regarding M\u0101ori tradition and tikanga M\u0101ori. They have a unique role to play in our tertiary education system, and this bill acknowledges that and will establish a framework to support them in the transmission of M\u0101ori knowledge, which is very important for our rangatahi. It is also important to recognise these institutions and to allow M\u0101ori education to develop and thrive, and it\u2019s imperative that their mana and rangatiratanga are recognised and respected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis bill enables existing w\u0101nanga to either reconstitute themselves as a Crown entity w\u0101nanga or convert to a non-Crown entity w\u0101nanga\u2014and the former to have a bespoke purpose, function, and governance arrangement. While the latter will primarily be accountable to iwi, hap\u016B, and other M\u0101ori organisations, they will retain some accountability to the Crown. The Education and Workforce Committee has made multiple important additions to this framework, and it now specifies the financial reporting requirements and better defines the responsibilities of each stakeholder in this new framework. So it\u2019s an important bill and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8cdcd4b8d9040e1b76917b2ca2722f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8cdcd4b8d9040e1b76917b2ca2722f2\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Like my colleagues, I rise to oppose the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3) at the second reading. And we do that with some consideration because there certainly are parts of the bill that we do support. I think it goes without saying that child protection should be one of the number one issues in this country and that there are provisions in this bill that that do seek to enhance, where possible, child protection. Particularly we do support the provision that changes the criteria for school boards regarding convicted offenders. We support any change that will automatically change the eligibility criteria of school boards so that anyone convicted of an offence under Schedule 2 of the Children\u2019s Act is automatically ineligible to serve on a board. That\u2019s very practical, very pragmatic, very sensible decision to have made, and I think any right-thinking New Zealander would absolutely agree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWhen children go to school, the place where they are learning and the place that often steers the course for them for the rest of their lives, they need to be safe, and, equally, the parents and caregivers of those children should absolutely expect\u2014they really shouldn\u2019t even have to think about it, quite frankly\u2014that their children will be safe in such an environment. But, unfortunately, the majority of the proposed changes in this amendment bill we don\u2019t actually agree with. Hence, we have decided to oppose the bill in its entirety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EPrimarily, as has been canvassed already by members on our side of the House, our fundamental opposition is around the criteria for the appointment of school board members regarding sort of picking and choosing different kinds of people that should be selected to board representation. It is important, obviously, that boards reflect the communities that they serve and it\u2019s really important particularly for schools to have boards that have wide-ranging expertise and wide-ranging community backgrounds, because they are effectively running the school and they are listing the outcomes of those kids in that school. And, obviously, anyone should expect that these people are chosen on their merit. Hence, we do oppose the inclusion of starting to look at people for different reasons that don\u2019t necessarily mean they bring a particular merit to a school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe current law actually already states that as far as reasonably practicable, every school board should reflect the character, gender, ethnic, and social diversity of that school or community. It is interesting\u2014I spoke on a bill earlier and I made the comment that it\u2019s just such a waste of Parliament\u2019s time to bring bills like this to the House when actually this is already enshrined in law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EYou have to look back at these things as to how the Education and Workforce Committee considered the legislation that is passing through the House, and, of course, more importantly, look to the submissions made by members of the public. This particular select committee, I understand, considered about 1,100 submissions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3975d6710d1491783a9d953261b7bd0\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re listening to the public. We\u2019re listening to the people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec7c16bf31d64e5ca1142a6614ac3588\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m trying to listen to this member\u2019s speech, so I just ask members who are not giving a speech to hold their fire. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022078e55d79bba43aca5b15d8b0abdbfc2\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s very topical, Madam Speaker, the debate going on across the House about listening to the people, because in fact the select committee did receive 1,124 submissions and heard evidence from about 55 of those. But, very interestingly, like the members on this side of the House, most of the submitters also opposed the inclusion about board appointment provisions. So we do feel very strongly that we as elected representatives of the people of New Zealand, serving in the House of Representatives, should be passing legislation through this House that is representative of those people and their views and their desires.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAs has been covered by colleagues who have spoken before me, it is such a wasted opportunity when we could be bringing in an education and training amendment bill that actually looked to restore the discipline of the student outcomes and student achievement. Indeed, the previous National Government certainly had targets in place for the director-general of education and indeed the Minister\u2014targets around achievement and attainment. That is the most important and crucial role of schools and the education sector in New Zealand. We don\u2019t think we should be using Parliament\u2019s time to pass law like this bill that is about dictating who should be appointed or seconded to school boards. We actually think we should be using Parliament\u2019s time to set about achievement and attainment for the students and the children of New Zealand. So on that, as I have outlined, National will oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00229d121e532d974309a898599e43757c5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d121e532d974309a898599e43757c5e\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ll make a short contribution to wrap up this debate on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EFirstly, can I acknowledge my colleagues that are with us today from the w\u0101nanga and particularly my former colleagues from Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa. I remember very fondly the stories shared with me by Rongo Wetere and Aunty Ma in her time, who talked about the start of Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa as the Waip\u0101 K\u014Dkiri Arts Centre that established itself in a garage in Te Awamutu. The story started there to be now the third-largest tertiary organisation in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it establishes a governance framework for our w\u0101nanga. That is an important part, that they are recognised as a Crown entity, that they are funded appropriately, of course, or the framework enables them to be recognised from a lens of tino rangatiratanga, from a lens of mana, and the contribution that not only that they make to the tauira, the students that they teach, but also the greater economic and social contributions that they make to some of our most vulnerable communities, as well as the contribution that they make to te reo me \u014Dna tikanga in this country of Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESecondly, I just want to push back on some of the narrative that\u2019s come back from Opposition in regards to better representative boards in our schools. The point is, absolutely, we can have representation and skill sets too. Just because we are elevating more representative groups in this instance, for our kids that are LGBTI\u002B, from our rainbow community, that they are more included in their school, that they are feeling safer. That doesn\u2019t mean that we compromise the skill set at a governance level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EOne of the Opposition members made a suggestion that our Government\u2019s not focused on learning outcomes\u2014we\u2019re focused on boards today. Well, actually leadership does start from the top. If you\u2019ve got a good representative, quality board of trustees in place, then absolutely the school will run better and achievement will be attained also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge that in that representation, when I go back to the point about representation and skill\u2014look what we\u2019ve done for women. As we\u2019ve increased the number of w\u0101hine representatives across governance groups, that doesn\u2019t mean we\u2019ve compromised on skill. It means, actually, we\u2019ve achieved a better outcome for all people involved. When it comes to representation in our schools, that is particularly our children and young people and their achievements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESo, I\u2019ll conclude my speech there. This is a wonderful piece of legislation that amends some critical issues in our education sector. Long may it continue, because as we continue to build an education sector that is representative of everybody, in this instance, whether it be w\u0101nanga M\u0101ori or whether it be our LGBTIQ\u002B community, it\u2019s a very, very good thing that raises achievement, outcome, and benefits for all involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b9dd5fe28c944a3b97b9e18ee9c4c3b8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No\u00A03) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; Te\u00A0Paati\u00A0M\u0101ori\u00A02; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000327\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9269f76d5f04890a4781b621b47c826\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226aba888b9e7c4237b27c18b9e208b914\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00223810c1e7af254f1d8d781002aa6eca0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223810c1e7af254f1d8d781002aa6eca0b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there an honourable member that would move this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002247d744b847474332868fd072c08ddb88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247d744b847474332868fd072c08ddb88\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. We\u2019re just locating the Minister\u2019s speech for this one. My apologies to hold up the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3f07fb9501342cc99eda38797f7c877\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3f07fb9501342cc99eda38797f7c877\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, I move that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef17eb3d56994f5c8b4c6bff579877e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef17eb3d56994f5c8b4c6bff579877e5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Let me seek advice from the Clerk. We\u2019ll just take a pause for a moment. One of the Clerks is coming in to give me advice right now. Is there an honourable member that will move this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00227202a26d0b4d46209bee76153b00b29d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227202a26d0b4d46209bee76153b00b29d\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Minister of Customs)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Associate Minister of Transport: I move that the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill be read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c2ad358af734e51b4a12138535d6689\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the second reading; so that\u2019s completely wrong as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d345d41ff4c4b379282c85e6f26d451\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The words have to be precise, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022894746664e1d48298936a64452d55713\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Clearly, we\u2019re in a situation where the Government is not prepared to continue business, and, on that basis, surely the House must stand adjourned for the rest of this extended sitting and then recommence at 2 p.m. for the conduct of normal business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239fcbd9ef6fc4f03a76587150e17188f\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, I move that the Land Transport\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1182908d86d4b6490398ce8be70aeda\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order! I had a point of order, Madam Speaker. I just made a point of order suggesting that surely the House must be adjourned, and I\u2019m interested in your insight on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d22b9be86b4745f18046c1187063753c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The advice that I was being given by the Clerk is that I give one more opportunity for the bill to be moved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0887729920b45bb872e9ab73b2c24b6\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: I move that the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill be read a second time\u2014I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill, and I move that the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228964ac5dd940468eb7c2bc1e8ac4b30d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister like to speak to the motion of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226804299820a74075bd1eb7876b96e73c\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I move, That the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c98d9df39004e8ba148f8089c7f6654\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: So would you like to make a speech on the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6f93dbd35294dc8b4372b33f74047fc\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Madam Speaker. This bill is part of this Government\u2019s commitment to stamp out dangerous and reckless behaviour on New Zealand\u2019s roads and, in turn, reduce deaths and serious injuries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThis bill aims to reduce unsafe behaviour on Aotearoa New Zealand roads, and we are tackling this in two ways: firstly, by enabling police to respond more swiftly and effectively to fleeing drivers, whose behaviour poses a serious threat to road safety; secondly, by enabling the use of technologies to identify and automatically issue infringement notices for transport offences, including a pointtopoint average-speed camera system. We sent a message to dangerous and intimidating drivers earlier this year through the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill. The message is the same for drivers who fail to stop for police: this behaviour is unacceptable and could result in you losing your vehicle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EFleeing drivers undermine the safety of our roads and represent a significant danger not only for our police officers and the people in a fleeing vehicle but for innocent road users who find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. After 63 fleeing-driver - related deaths between 2010 and 2020, police changed their pursuit policy to place more emphasis on post-event investigations. While this succeeded at reducing deaths and serious injuries, it also contributed to an increase in fleeing-driver events. There were 9,765 events last year, up from 6,757 the year before, and since December 2020, only 34\u00A0percent of fleeing drivers have been identified by police, partly due to insufficient consequences for the vehicle\u2019s owners when they don\u2019t provide police with information about a fleeing driver. The tougher consequences for fleeing drivers in this bill are intended to deter people from failing to stop for the red and blue lights. However, if drivers do choose to flee from police, the legislative tools introduced by the bill will assist police to identify them and hold them to account. The bill will complement a revised police fleeing-driver policy, which came into effect in late May this year, and together the two will strike a balance between improved road safety outcomes and proper punishment for those who break the law and endanger others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThis omnibus bill amends the Land Transport Act 1998 and the Sentencing Act 2002, with consequential amendments to the Summary Proceedings Act 1957, the Privacy Act 2020, and relevant land transport rules and regulations. It will also enable police to seize and empower the vehicle for six months, an increase from the current 28 days, if the police officer believes on reasonable grounds that the person driving the vehicle has failed to stop or remain stopped when signalled. It also creates a new power for police to seize and impound a vehicle for 28 days if the vehicle\u2019s registered owner fails to provide information or misleads police about the fleeing driver. This will assist police to identify the driver, improving the current low identification rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe bill increases the period of driver licence disqualification after a second conviction for a failing-to-stop offence from one year to a range of between one and two years\u2014a sentence which will be handed out at the courts\u2019 discretion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAnd, lastly, a new sentencing option will be created, enabling the courts to order that a vehicle be forfeited on conviction for a failing-to-stop offence. In these cases, not only will the offender lose their car permanently but they will also lose out on the proceeds from its sale. There is evidence that penalties which emphasise loss, such as a loss of licence or a vehicle, are more likely to influence behaviour than monetary penalties. They also reduce opportunities for reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAs well as increasing the consequences for fleeing drivers, the bill also enables the use of technology to both increase the speed of enforcement and to widen the ability to detect offences as they occur. The bill will allow enforcement agencies to make use of emerging technologies, including point-to-point cameras. Point-to-point cameras calculate the average speed travelled over a distance between two points and have a proven track record overseas at reducing road deaths and serious injuries. The new camera network will play an important role in the Government\u2019s Road to Zero strategy; simply put, it will help to save lives. We are also introducing electronic servicing and automated issuing of infringement notices. These changes will modernise our transport regulatory system through better use of technology. They will help ensure that important and time-sensitive infringement notices, including for speeding offences or revoking of licences on medical grounds, are finding their way to the right person, in the right place, at the right time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThis bill has now been considered by the Justice Committee. Thank you to the committee for their thorough and considered approach, particularly given their extensive work programme, and thank you also to the 33 organisations and individuals who submitted on this bill. The diverse range of expertise shared by these submitters has been integral to getting the bill to this stage today. I\u2019m going to highlight some key changes: the commencement date of the bill has been extended to six weeks following Royal assent, and this will allow Police and Waka Kotahi time for the necessary implementation activities to ensure the new systems are as intended: quick, accurate, and secure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EIn some cases, an impounded vehicle will be under a finance arrangement and the registered person may default on their payments during the six-month period, resulting in the car being repossessed by a creditor. The bill now enables a finance company to have a repossessed vehicle released from impoundment without being liable for any towage or storage fees. The robustness of the automated infringement system has been improved by separating responsibility for approving and for maintaining the system. The Minister of Transport will now be responsible for approving the system, while the ongoing quality assurance and audit processes will sit with the enforcement authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EFor the new point-to-point camera system, it is now clear in the legislation that the road-controlling authority must both install and maintain signage for each point-to-point camera on the network. The intent behind this is that a warning sign will encourage drivers to be aware of and reduce their speed. Providing the sign has been appropriately installed and maintained, a driver will still be liable for an infringement notice if the sign is not present or visible at the time at infringement. The safety camera network is designed to improve road safety outcomes, not to fill the coffers; however, if a driver chooses to speed through a point-to-point camera road corridor, they can expect to pay, and we hope it\u2019s from their wallet and not with their life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ETo further support the transfer of the safety camera network from Police to Waka Kotahi, the bill will amend the Privacy Act 2020 to enable the transport offence information to be shared between the two organisations as well as the Ministry of Justice and the Legal Services Commissioner. This is an extension of the current system and will ensure a continuity of roadside police activities. This bill is another milestone in this Government\u2019s plan to make New Zealand\u2019s roads safer. Again, I thank the Justice Committee and those who submitted for your valuable input. I would also like to recognise the collaboration that went into this mahi between both the transport and justice ministries, Police, and Waka Kotahi. One person killed or injured by a fleeing or speeding driver is one too many. This bill sends a clear message that these dangerous and harmful behaviours will not be tolerated on our roads. To that point, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a763a29b4092472a86564d9a7e5b3384\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a763a29b4092472a86564d9a7e5b3384\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022265f431b84da46aab4743c8e621adbc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022265f431b84da46aab4743c8e621adbc6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, this is a bill that seeks to toughen up the consequences for fleeing drivers, which we support. But, of course, I have an image of a fleeing driver in my head, panicked, careering down the road looking left and right over their shoulders, wondering what\u2019s going on. We\u2019ve just had that demonstrated by this Government and underlined how it is a metaphor for this Government itself, because they couldn\u2019t find a Minister to introduce the actual bill. For five minutes we stand here in the House, we\u2019ve got the second reading starting, there\u2019s no Minister here to deliver the speech. They can\u2019t find the speech notes. They\u2019re rattling through the folders trying to find the notes. They come up with an earlier version of it\u2014somebody delivers that\u2014and it\u2019s just an example of a Government that is confused and lost. Of course, it was Kiri Allan who introduced this bill for its first reading a couple of months or so ago. And she, of course, on the record, has been arrested, we understand, 500 metres away from her car.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236ca4e4ea9114257894710cfa4644382\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will come back to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8ec1d280409477f88913b0c15909aed\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, she was the one who introduced this bill, and then we have, I think, Ginny Andersen is now responsible for the bill as Minister of Justice, lampooned up and down the country as Minister of both catch and release\u2014both Minister of Police and Minister of Justice. And so we now have this bill, and, look, there are two parts to this bill. One part of it is in relation to firming up the consequences for fleeing drivers. Now, we support that\u2014we support the bill on that part of it. Not only does it bring in tougher consequences for people who flee in a car after a crash or ram raid or whatever, secondly, it introduces tougher consequences for people who own the car and don\u2019t give information about who was driving the car when it was involved in such an incident. And so we support that. We supported it being rushed through the House on that basis because it\u2019s an important issue. Of course, it\u2019s only one element and it will make some difference and that\u2019s why it\u2019s supported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe broader context of the Government\u2019s justice policies are more concerning because, ultimately, if you\u2019re number one and only clearly expressed priority for the justice system is to reduce the prison population, irrespective of what\u2019s going on to our community, then that will lead to a lowering of law and order and it will lead to the mess that we\u2019re seeing on our streets and in our communities. So this bill will go so far, but if the Government was really serious about bringing back real consequences for serious crime, and if it was serious about having an answer to the countless shopkeepers and retailers that we speak to every day who say, \u201CThere are no consequences\u2014we see no consequences for the young people who are doing this.\u201D And in the context of fleeing drivers, the most obvious change that took place three or four years ago under this Government, through the Police Commissioner, was the decision never to chase\u2014never to chase. Surprisingly enough, there\u2019s been a massive increase in the number of fleeing drivers since that. And so the police have undertaken to review that, and I think they should, and they should leave some doubt in the mind of fleeing drivers, and that has to be part of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo you\u2019ve got to have a broader sense of understanding of what\u2019s the overall message from the Government about crime. And as I say, at the moment, it\u2019s a very mixed one. It\u2019s a confused one. It\u2019s saying that our only priority is to reduce the prison population, irrespective of what\u2019s going on. And if you\u2019ve got a 33 percent increase in violent crime, if you\u2019ve got 100 percent increase in retail crime, and if you\u2019ve got a 550 percent increase in ram raids, then I struggle to understand why the target still is on reducing the prison population irrespective of what\u2019s happening. So this bill will help in that regard but it won\u2019t solve all the problems in the absence of a real firm policy around consequences for crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut I want to talk about the second element of this bill, which is bringing in the regime for pointtopoint cameras. We are opposed to this part of the bill. We don\u2019t support this part of the bill, and when it comes to the committee of the whole House, we will oppose this part of the bill on two grounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe first ground is that there is no argument for ramming such a change through under a rushed process, because this bill has been pushed through on a shortened period so there hasn\u2019t actually been a lengthy and full select committee process. It was truncated down to rush it through, and we think this area around bringing in a new regime for point-to-point cameras for speeding tickets should have wider examination. And, fundamentally, we don\u2019t support it because, ultimately, when you look at the causes of a severe injury and death on our roads, speeding accounts for less than 10 percent of the people involved and yet that\u2019s the only thing the Government focuses on. They haven\u2019t focused on dealing with drunk drivers and drug-drivers. There\u2019s been a great reduction in the number of police checkpoints for drunk drivers. They\u2019ve fluffed around and haven\u2019t made any progress on the drugdrivers, which are one of the greatest causes of death and injury on our roads. They haven\u2019t done much around seatbelts, and they certainly haven\u2019t done much on improving the quality of the roads because, you know, this will forever be known as the \u201Cpothole Government\u201D given the shambles that the roads are at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAll they do is they focus on slowing us down and I suppose I just want people to think about the consequences. What happens if there was a point-to-point camera in one of the many streets in our city right now where they have insisted that we drive around at 30 kilometres an hour, which most people\u2014and I live in Auckland and I drive along streets and I, of course, stick to the speed limit. I\u2019m very careful to do that, but I\u2019m the only person in the whole place who does because everybody else is shooting past. Nobody can drive at 30 kilometres an hour in a modern car and feel like they\u2019re not going insane. And so if we were to have this point-to-point camera down a 1-kilometre stretch of a 30-kilometre-an-hour road in the middle of Auckland, that would be, I think, an outrageous thing that would drive people crazy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd that, I don\u2019t think, should be the point of Government policy. I think the point of Government policy should be to make people\u2019s lives easier, to actually help them get around and do what they want to do. Not to drive them nuts by making them crawl around at 30 kilometres an hour, and then, if you put a point-to-point camera, which means that you have to literally crawl along all the way down the road at 30 kilometre an hour in a modern safe car\u2014cars have never been safer, never been better designed to help people avoid crashes, then that is a strange thing to do and we don\u2019t support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn fact, we think the Government would be far better focused on transport policy; on (a) fixing the roads so that there are not dangerous potholes everywhere, (b) investing in good quality, modern, safe roads such as the Waikato Expressway which the National Government started and this Government finally finished only a year or so ago, and the beautiful road going north of Auckland which was lampooned and mocked by Labour politicians as the \u201Choliday highway\u201D but which they opened with great fanfare only a few months ago after six years of work started under National, and a third example being the Transmission Gully road\u2014again, mocked and lampooned by this Government but now opened and one of the most beautiful roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo building safe, modern roads is the most useful thing you can do for safety. And then, secondly, dealing with the real causes such as drunk driving, drug-driving\u2014we still haven\u2019t made much progress on drug-driving, they\u2019ve fluffed around and still haven\u2019t got it sorted there\u2014and actually have some checkpoints and actually deal with things like, you know, focusing on seatbelts. And those are the sorts of things that would make a real difference rather than the point-to-point cameras. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo in conclusion, we have a Government that\u2019s in a bit of a shambles. They can\u2019t find a Minister to deliver a speech. They can\u2019t find the speech notes. They don\u2019t know what they\u2019re doing. And when they finally get around to bringing in a bill, it\u2019s a bill that on one part we support\u2014and overall we support\u2014because we do see the need to have firmer consequences for fleeing drivers, we just wish that there was a broader, more coherent justice policy that had firmer consequences for crime right across the board rather than the mixed messages that we are getting from this Government. And secondly, when it comes to point-to-point speed cameras in the context of a Government determined to make us crawl around at 30 kilometres an hour, we don\u2019t think that\u2019s a very sensible thing to do, and we don\u2019t support that element of the bill. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00228adfa287ba08443fa34510b76a3ade1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228adfa287ba08443fa34510b76a3ade1a\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call on the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill, a bill that has passed through the very hard-working Justice Committee, who will be meeting during our lunch break today\u2014a reminder for colleagues around the room.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that is designed to improve the legislative response to fleeing drivers and to address the public safety issues within the land transport system. I am still a little bit unsure whether the National Party are supporting or opposing the bill. I understood from that speech that they were supporting the first part but not the second. So I\u2019m sure other members will confirm their position for us. I am a bit disappointed in that, though, because the significance of point to point cameras is that they can evidence fleeing drivers as well. So there is a connection between the first and the second part that Mr Goldsmith was speaking to. And we did traverse this within the select committee as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ECan I thank committee members for engaging on this bill, but also our advisers. This was a fascinating bill to work on, because we did have four sets of advisers with us: Waka Kotahi, the Police, the Ministry of Transport, and the Ministry of Justice, who came back to us on several occasions with additional advice. We also had 33 submissions and eight submitters, who also really did help us make some proposed changes to this bill, some of which the Minister has traversed. They include things that are really practical like changing the commencement date to allow for some public education, but also policies and procedures to be developed to allow Waka Kotahi to make arrangements to collect the fees or the payment of fees from the registered person, because Waka Kotahi would be in the first instance responsible for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI think one of the really useful points that submitters made was in the area of financial service providers. So where there\u2019s debt registered against a car that might have been confiscated. And the points that they made resulted in us proposing an insertion, in clause\u00A013, of new section 97A, which meant that we\u2019d be clear that those financial service providers would not be liable for fees associated with impounding the car, but also inserting a provision which means that if the financial service provider became the registered owner, then the vehicle would automatically be released.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI know my colleagues from the ACT Party have a differing view and I do understand their concerns in terms of the rights of people who may not themselves be connected with the actual offending of fleeing. But I do believe that there are sufficient protections within the bill to ensure that there\u2019s a good rights balancing exercise that\u2019s taken place, including amendments to section 102 of the Land Transport Act, which means that those owners can make an appeal in relation to the release of the vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ESo I do believe that we have had a really robust process. I thank the Members again and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022f52d73b7bd0544a0968553f87e4e5161\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f52d73b7bd0544a0968553f87e4e5161\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call on this bill, the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill. What a car crash of a process at the start of this bill, when the Government couldn\u2019t find the bill notes and then found the wrong ones. This just shows the shambles that this Government is in as they come to the end of their days of this Labour Government. We can\u2019t wait\u2014we can\u2019t wait\u2014in terms of getting rid of this Government, and New Zealanders can\u2019t wait either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe National Party, we support the bill, but we do not support a component of the bill in relation to point-to-point cameras. The members on the other side might be waving their hands around like some sort of interpretive dance at the moment. I\u2019m struggling to interpret the dance, but I think that\u2019s sort of the exit dance, isn\u2019t it? The exit dance before they leave in four weeks\u2019 time, as New Zealanders will go to the polls and kick them out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut the point I\u2019d make in regards to point-to-point cameras is very similar to what my colleague Paul Goldsmith made in that this is being rushed through as part of something which I think there is general support for from New Zealanders around tackling fleeing drivers. In fact, under this Government, we have seen a range of different policies around how we tackle fleeing drivers\u2014one where the police stopped pursuing; now they are pursuing again. Here they are providing some more tools around how to tackle that problem, and, of course, we\u2019ve got the ram-raid issue as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut what they\u2019ve snuck in here and which New Zealanders would not have paid as close attention to\u2014due to the fact that what\u2019s on the tin is quite different to what\u2019s actually in the bill\u2014is that this Government is also giving new powers to road-controlling authorities to put in place point-to-point speed camera operations across New Zealand. Now, the issue with this is that this Government has also been reducing speed limits blanketly across our country\u2014blanket speed limit reductions right across New Zealand, slowing New Zealanders down everywhere they go. If you go to some suburbs in Auckland, it is now a blanket 30 kilometres per hour on some roads which are actually quite busy and should be operating at much higher speed limits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut this Government knows best, and they are pushing and enforcing on local authorities blanket 30-kilometre-per-hour speed limits on every single suburban street across New Zealand. When you tie that in with what they\u2019re now proposing here, which is point-to-point speed camera provisions, this will give the opportunity for road-controlling authorities to be able to effectively, potentially, mean that someone could drive from one side of Auckland to the other and lose their licence because they may have been going 35 kilometres per hour down a road. That is what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d5edc602284451b647ac183c059a34\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: Read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbb1d6ab22d144d1b0dd43dddd9d5c61\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014this bill provides for. I\u2019ve read the bill, and that\u2019s exactly what it says. It allows for point-to-point speed camera operations to be put across road-controlling authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, that is something which the National Party doesn\u2019t agree with, because, ultimately, this Government has ignored the real issues when it comes to road safety. When it comes to drug-driving, well, the Government passed the law after we said it\u2019s time to deal with this issue back in 2017. They finally passed the bill at the beginning of last year, and it\u2019s unenforceable. It can\u2019t even be implemented. Now, drugs and alcohol are the number one cause of deaths and serious injuries on our roads\u2014the number one cause of death and serious injuries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut instead of dealing with that issue, we\u2019re here in the House saying, \u201CNo, no; we\u2019re going to fine people going an average of 31 kilometres per hour down a suburban street.\u201D I think that\u2019s appalling, but that just shows where this Government is at. They just want to tell people that they need to drive slower rather than dealing with the real issues around road safety on our roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo I challenge the Government and say, where is the legislation to actually ensure that our police can test people on the side of the roads for drugs? Where\u2019s the legislation? Where\u2019s the fix? I know the Minister has received advice on how to fix it. I\u2019ve drafted a bill on how to fix it. The Victorian Government, the NSW Government, the Australian states, America, UK\u2014they\u2019ve all got tools on how to do this. Where\u2019s the legislation? But this is all this Government can bring in their dying days, trying to enforce and put fines on people driving 31 kilometres per hour down the road. Shame on this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAgain, it says in here: signposting speed cameras. So when they are going to have these new 31kilometre-per-hour speed cameras\u2014because that\u2019s what it will be; people who dare drive 31\u00A0kilometres down a street which used to be 50, they\u2019re now going to have to signpost that speed cameras are in place. Well, this Government said, in 2019, \u201CWe will make sure that every single fixed speed camera in New Zealand is signposted.\u201D Well, I asked the Minister of Police earlier this year how many fixed speed cameras have been signposted. Well, the answer came back with Michael Wood\u2019s big red zero\u2014zero. I mean, the Minister could have sent the picture. Zero fixed speed cameras have been signposted since 2019 when this Government made a commitment to ensure that every fixed camera\u2014so I don\u2019t believe this will happen at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo the National Party does believe that we need to have tougher penalties when it comes to fleeing drivers and more tools for police, but this Draconian approach to now enforce point-to-point cameras to find people who dare drive a speed limit of 31\u00A0kilometres per hour down a suburban street is absolute absurdity. It\u2019s Draconianism, it\u2019s \u201CGovernment knows best\u201D, and the National Party opposes it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002203fec215be294469b2f3e6a437d9760a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203fec215be294469b2f3e6a437d9760a\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Wasn\u2019t that a perfect metaphor for the National Party\u2019s approach to crime? They like the toughening up of consequences that this Government is implementing, but they don\u2019t like the tools to actually do it. To actually deliver on the toughening up of consequences for fleeing drivers, we need a system which records and issues infringements for speeding, but they don\u2019t like that on that side of the House, they don\u2019t actually like doing it. They don\u2019t actually understand that part of the bill\u2019s place in this enforcement of the law; they just want something in the statute book which says \u201CWe\u2019re tough, we don\u2019t like these people who are fleeing drivers\u201D\u2014that\u2019s all they wanted, and we had two speeches from that side of the House which told us and told New Zealanders that more clearly than ever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, you can see that I\u2019m riled up about this because the Justice Committee did an incredible amount of work on this bill to improve it and make sure that those powers that police have asked for\u2014which the Government is introducing\u2014are being implemented in a way which is fair, which is appropriate, and which actually delivers these consequences well. And I thank my colleague from the ACT Party, Nicole McKee; I look forward to her contribution, because she engaged with this bill very deeply as well\u2014not so much from the National Party, as we have heard from their speeches today. They are right that there are two points in this bill: the first is that it clarifies that powers the police have to enforce harsher consequences for fleeing drivers. It deals with those things like when vehicles are unregistered: what we do about that situation, and when the registered vehicle owner is not the driver or claims to not be the driver. This is a problem because in those cases, essentially, we might have a situation where that is ungovernable: where somebody claims that they were not the driver, we don\u2019t actually have any way of enforcing a penalty there to do with their property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMany other jurisdictions have taken different responses to this\u2014say, in Australia, where you have a nominated driver register where the police can get in touch with someone who is the nominated driver of a vehicle; we don\u2019t have that in New Zealand. There is no record of who actually is the owner of a vehicle. There\u2019s only a register of drivers of vehicles, and that\u2019s not the same thing. So in this bill, we\u2019ve gotten around that in a situation which I think actually the law captures what the Government is trying to do here without creating a massive new bureaucracy of sorts, and I\u2019m proud of that work that the Justice Committee did to ensure that that was going to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second point that my colleagues on the other side of the House are so upset about is this point-to-point camera regime, and again, the committee really got stuck into the details to make sure this was a system that was going to work; I have faith that it is, because speed as a factor in these serious accidents\u2014we heard in the committee room\u2014was a major factor. Often it won\u2019t be recorded as the main factor, but in many of the situations, speed is a massive factor which point-to-point cameras can help to identify very clearly. We need to use this new technology, and we need to update our rules so that police can use it, and so there is an infringement system which responds to that new technology. We need to make sure it has safeguards in place, yes. This bill allows for those checks and balances, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m proud to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u002240c3e218512248b2bb4d5d48d9ffd7b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c3e218512248b2bb4d5d48d9ffd7b7\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101l\u014D e lelei, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5c43c49ed0741df93fd272befa13784\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022721fa0099d67403088a7a40e0fcfa2b5\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I stand to speak on behalf of the ACT Party for the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill and have put on notice that the ACT Party will not be supporting this bill going forward. We did support it at first reading and we had reservations, which we pointed out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important, at this point, that I do acknowledge all of the officials that came into the Justice Committee because it was a very complicated bill and they had to go backwards and forwards many times with our many questions, and I do want to acknowledge the hard work that they did there. As well as across the board with the Justice Committee\u2014we had robust discussions there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EBut we\u2019ve still come to the conclusion that we cannot support this bill. ACT are not satisfied with the bill and we do firmly believe that this Labour Government is heading further and further in the wrong direction on how to address law and order issues. We also recognise that the point-to-point cameras is merely revenue gathering for the Government trying to rebuild their fiscal hole from the taxpayers\u2019 pockets\u2014the taxpayer who already has to repay this Government\u2019s wasteful spending. What else do you do when your tax take is down by billions of dollars? It\u2019s put more onto the poor old taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe consultation period for this bill actually only ran from 19 May to 4 June. It was 16 days in total\u2014we couldn\u2019t even take three weeks, this had to be rushed through so quickly\u2014and there were 33 submissions to the bill, of which only five were regarded as being \u201Cgenerally supportive\u201D of the bill. The majority did not support this bill, and they raised many concerns with us. Those concerns included that the bill wouldn\u2019t achieve making our roads safer; that the fleeing driver proposals are disproportionately severe; there was impounding vehicles for six months; and the use of forfeiture will also have an unnecessary impact on the finance industry, the towage, and the storage operators. There were concerns raised about e-servicing regimes, about the use of average speed to issue infringements, along with the accuracy and approval of the automated infringement systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo if we start to work through some of these bill\u2019s details, the objective of the bill is to reduce unsafe driver behaviour. It has claimed that it will do this by lengthening the 28-day impoundments of vehicles to six months for drivers that fail to stop, but also for the drivers that fail to remain stopped\u2014the ones that that take off\u2014and also to create new power for the impoundment of the vehicle if a driver, the owner, or the registered owner fails to provide information and prevent a serious threat to road safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo the question\u2014and I guess we could have asked this, but I didn\u2019t think of it at the time\u2014was actually how many times does a fleeing driver commit that offence twice in the same vehicle? Because if they do, the vehicle itself can now be forfeited regardless of whether or not they own it. They would increase disqualification from one to two years, and we don\u2019t have a problem with that one. But it also allows electronic service of notices and automated issue of certain infringement notices, and this is through the enabling of the point-to-point revenue cameras.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe implementation of this bill was meant to be the day after Royal assent, but it\u2019s now six weeks. This is to enable the new empowerment regime to take place and create a new financial assurance regime for the six-month impoundments. Waka Kotahi are going to be liable for all of the costs. What are the ultimate costs of this scheme going to be? We still don\u2019t know. Who pays Waka Kotahi? Well, the taxpayer is paying Waka Kotahi so the taxpayer, ultimately, is going to be the one liable for all of the costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe had to amend the bill so that police are responsible for telling Waka Kotahi when a car has been impounded. They hadn\u2019t even thought that far through in the drafting of this bill. Then we had the financial services industry, who came in and said, \u201CWell, if a car is on finance, who\u2019s going to tell us that the car has been impounded?\u201D After the toing and froing with officials, it was actually deemed that it\u2019s going to be up to the person whose car has been impounded to tell the financial services that it has been\u2014that is, the registered owner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo the finance companies have to change their processes to accommodate unknowns, and Waka Kotahi have to set up a system of payments and debt collections. Owners and registered persons of vehicles will potentially be losing their vehicles for six months and having to pay the towage and storage fees. Yet what of the fleeing driver? What of the fleeing driver? There are so many questions that came out through the select committee. My colleague across the way there, Anahila Kanongata\u2019a-Sui\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222734a23118bc4a4ca75338825e854e48\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all. She dropped the second bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a5a5ba1a6f144cd96a142863767dad3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253b82b78d2684ef08a31794ddab9ef07\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Thank you. She actually brought up a really good point, and it was: what if members of Pacific Islanders\u2019 families go home\u2014the parents go home sometimes for a month, two months, three months\u2014and their vehicle is used and they don\u2019t know that? They come back to find that their vehicle\u2019s been impounded for three months. They did not have the opportunity to be able to address who was actually driving the vehicle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe hardship that could be imposed on some of our families for events that had nothing to do with them\u2014for events where they had no control\u2014and yet they would be the ones that would be subjected to having to pay for these fees. Some of these fees start at a minimum of $2,500 and that\u2019s not including all of the towage and the ultimate storage fees. That\u2019s just your starting basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThere are so many questions here. Police can release a vehicle if they\u2019re not prosecuting, but then again, who pays? So if a vehicle\u2019s been in impoundment for three months, who\u2019s actually going to pay that? Is it the taxpayer or is it the owner of the vehicle? What are those expected costs to Waka Kotahi; to the taxpayer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAlso, where are all these vehicles going to go? Where are they going to be stored? I remember during the protest here, we had an issue where the towage companies could not place all of the cars that were blocking the road into a facility. So if we\u2019re going to start impounding cars for six months at a time, where is it that they\u2019re actually going to go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis bill was so rushed that even Waka Kotahi\u2019s newly added financial responsibility\u2014no one had actually thought about how would Waka Kotahi know a vehicle had been impounded? How would they know whether or not they had to actually be able to get in touch with the finance company, with the registered owner? They don\u2019t. So we had to put a variation within the bill to allow the distribution and sharing of information. This is basic stuff that should have been in there in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EBut if you\u2019re a finance company and there is no sharing of information, then it\u2019s tough luck. The only way that the finance company can actually get the vehicle back out is if they themselves become the new registered owner of the vehicle. And who\u2019s liable for the payment of all these fees? The registered owner. So when we look at all of the implementation that needs to be made around this bill, it becomes quite destructive and it\u2019s not achieving the objectives of the bill, which is to make our roads safer and to try and stop the deaths.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ENow, I understand 10 percent of road deaths are from speeding. So when we have the pointtopoint cameras, we have to wonder whether or not we are financially making ourselves liable for 10 percent when in fact we could spend that money looking at how we can improve services across the whole of New Zealand on all of our roads to decrease the deaths.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe now have towage, storage, Waka Kotahi, and finance companies all having to make changes to the way that they operate. But what about the fleeing driver? What about the person who\u2019s caused all of the harm in the first place? This bill will confiscate, it will impound, and it will possibly forfeit private property of a person who may not have necessarily committed a crime, putting unreasonable financial pressure on already stressed out community environments struggling under a cost of living burden. And what of the fleeing driver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe can\u2019t support this bill where the onus is placed on one for the actions of another, and to do so financially and with confiscation is unjust and it\u2019s wrong. Then there\u2019s the automated infringement notices as well. Email addresses having to be provided, when the Heartland Tour showed me we can\u2019t even get Wi-Fi everywhere. So many issues. We can\u2019t support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9b45a397b594c1a82de8abaf9665cb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9b45a397b594c1a82de8abaf9665cb4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana. Before I call the next member, just to let you know that you may have to give your speech in two parts, given the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d640f663777a441ca50ce5af14a0efad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d640f663777a441ca50ce5af14a0efad\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, the Green Party does not have a member on the Justice Committee, so we didn\u2019t have someone hearing it through the committee. I do want to start my contribution by speaking to the parts of the bill that we do support and specifically explaining the importance of speed management in addressing our very high deaths and serious injuries on our roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, when I was Associate Minister responsible for road safety, we looked at all the data and evidence from around the world on what is an effective way to reduce deaths and serious injuries on our roads. We can look to a couple of countries\u2014they\u2019re actually quite comparable to New Zealand in some ways, like Sweden, Norway, Ireland, and Canada\u2014that have made substantial reductions in deaths and serious injuries over a period of one to two decades. Sweden pioneered the Vision Zero approach: the idea that you don\u2019t tolerate deaths and serious injuries on the roads, you don\u2019t build it in as something that is acceptable. So they have a really good evidence base and they took about 20\u00A0years to drop their death and serious injury rate from what was something comparable to New Zealand\u2019s to less than a quarter when you consider the relative population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENorway has taken Sweden\u2019s lane and done it much faster; Ireland as well. So Ireland is down to less than half what New Zealand is, and one of the key pillars in how they did that was safer speeds and speed management. I feel that both National and ACT Party MPs have cited this really misleading statement about speed being the cause in less than 10 percent of crashes. It doesn\u2019t matter what the cause is, the speed has a massive impact on the severity of the consequences of the crash. So speed is the cause of 10 percent, but it could be the major factor resulting in serious injury or death in 30\u00A0percent or more of those crashes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo I think we just have to distinguish between speed being a cause of the crash itself and speed being a significant factor that means that you\u2019re more likely to have a death or serious injury result from the crash. All of that data is available. I feel like it\u2019s a bit of politicking, really, to kind of claim that speed has nothing to do with our high death and serious injury rate, and it is just absolute denial of the facts. You know, if you have a crash and you\u2019re traveling at a slower speed, you\u2019re much less likely to have a serious injury or death, and having an appropriate speed limit for the road is also important. We know that a bunch of the roads that we currently have\u2014and we\u2019re talking tens of thousands of kilometres of roads, not something that\u2019s going to be fixed overnight\u2014the posted speed limit is unsafe for the design of the road. And so you could say, \u201CWell, they weren\u2019t travelling above the speed limit, but they were still travelling at an unsafe speed for the road, and that was a factor that contributed to it being a serious injury or a death when it could have been a minor injury instead of that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the proposals in the bill that bring in signposting speed cameras and allowing point-to-point cameras I think are really important. This was a key part of the Road to Zero strategy as well, which is we\u2019re not putting up speed cameras and enforcing speed to raise revenue; we\u2019re doing it to change behaviour so fewer people die and have serious injuries on the roads, and that will, in fact, save costs for New Zealand because we\u2019ve got those people able to get on with their lives and we don\u2019t have the emergency services having to respond or the pressure on the hospitals. So there is a benefit to changing that behaviour\u2014a human benefit that\u2019s probably the most important, but there\u2019s also a fiscal and an economic benefit to lowering the number of serious injury and fatal crashes on the roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe point-to-point cameras are really important because they pick up the average speed throughout the journey, not just at a particular point. I know I\u2019m running out of time, Madam Speaker, and, I guess, unfortunately, we can\u2019t support the bill because of the proposals around the confiscation of vehicles and the punitive approach. I think that it\u2019s just really recognising that harsher punitive consequences do not deter the behaviour. We want to deter the behaviour. We want people to not be fleeing the police. Obviously, that\u2019s really, really important, but the evidence is that having harsher punishments and confiscating people\u2019s vehicles is not going to help someone in that moment to make a better decision, because they\u2019re already not making a good decision. So they\u2019re not thinking about the consequences in that moment, and those punitive consequences can affect them and their ability to get back on track after whatever incident has led to them fleeing, and it could even punish someone who has nothing to do with the activity because they\u2019re the ones who own the vehicle but somebody else was using the vehicle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo we can\u2019t support the bill, because it\u2019s not taking an effective approach to getting the outcomes we want. But we do absolutely support all of the proposals around signposting speed cameras and around point-to-point cameras, and I just really want to emphasise that it would be helpful if members on the right side of the House looked at the evidence. If you believe that it\u2019s worthwhile to New Zealand to have fewer people die on our roads, to have fewer people be in serious injury crashes, then please look at the evidence, because right now, they are not. The National Party and the ACT Party are taking a populist approach on road safety that is going to result in more harm on our roads, and it\u2019s really very, very counterproductive to the important debate that we need to have as people who all live in a country together, who all benefit when our fellow countrymen, when people visiting New Zealand, and when our families are less likely to be seriously injured or killed on our roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022511f1dd5e6e94dd8ae9a4afc2cf901e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022511f1dd5e6e94dd8ae9a4afc2cf901e7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. Ka kite an\u014D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230802432c1bd674fc4598b383907cb4b97ce6000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 1 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"