"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b0ddc3ea19342c5bef5d7add405f895\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 3 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226232537b20724a49a2482f24e401e96b\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 3 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b18a2c03fba6447b875ac7c716b6aeeb\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c31deeed15234dafb4205f73b9051222\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225afe131c8b6c4d38b29b732551b0fb1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225afe131c8b6c4d38b29b732551b0fb1b\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a1fa910f5ac43d697e84dc57192d1f5\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7af4394b9e1403f9441b874136210dc\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022407e0eef03914b8ab691ef87ce3f7e30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022407e0eef03914b8ab691ef87ce3f7e30\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Today the House will adjourn until Tuesday, 15 August. In that week, the Estimates debate will conclude with appearances by Ministers in the local government, justice, and transport portfolios. Legislation to be considered during the week include the third reading of the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill, the committee stage of the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill and the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No\u00A03), the second reading of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill and the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill, and the first reading of the Whakat\u014Dhea Claims Settlement Bill. Wednesday is scheduled to be a members\u2019 day and there will also be six valedictory statements during the week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022969f92818adf41ec98ebd5e8570f9b2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022969f92818adf41ec98ebd5e8570f9b2f\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Leader of the House for that update. Amongst the many bills they seek to progress before the House rises for the general election, is it his expectation that the Immigration (Mass Arrivals) Amendment Bill will be progressed given the rather strident select committee commentary about that bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220c9da185c56e487aa67a3220522f164d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c9da185c56e487aa67a3220522f164d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E As the member indicates, the Government has a busy work programme, with a lot of bills on the list. We will attempt to advance as many of them as we possibly can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002252e11d8037414c9e8ff8f99bef2c05a9\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ca57edc31684365820fce111e4e2d7f\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00220767c21a1da9429299b151cf01149363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220767c21a1da9429299b151cf01149363\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No petitions have been delivered for presentation. No papers have been delivered for presentation. A select committee report has been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef2658ceb9bc41ce85aa584f9691eb65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef2658ceb9bc41ce85aa584f9691eb65\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Report of the Governance and Administration Committee on the St Peter\u2019s Parish Endowment Fund Trust Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f63cfad6a8f14930b020537b4712e107\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f63cfad6a8f14930b020537b4712e107\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That bill is set down for second reading. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022829b2906dcba46f996f7f6173e92cbd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022829b2906dcba46f996f7f6173e92cbd6\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EFisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EHuman Rights (Prohibition of Discrimination on Grounds of Gender Identity or Expression, and Variations of Sex Characteristics) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMedicines (Exemption for Authorised Prescribers) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ERestoring Citizenship Removed By Citizenship (Western Samoa) Act 1982 Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00225a417ee8a6224203986948c155043a94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a417ee8a6224203986948c155043a94\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002273664759cf1a45a3a115cfc85d228661\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6a144009f15456295c7ec3909edd61b\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ceb79b0d4914c0bbeda36ce062b3e1c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u00228644d89a660444c18c8583d166969223\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228644d89a660444c18c8583d166969223\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Meitaki maata, Mr Speaker. What updates has she seen on the progress of the Apprenticeship Boost scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4715ff76c994ce68e10281229fbe9da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4715ff76c994ce68e10281229fbe9da\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to advise the House that the Government\u2019s Apprenticeship Boost initiative is showing great success. A whopping 60,000 apprentices have been supported, through the scheme, to stay in or take up an apprenticeship since it was introduced in August 2020. The scheme continues to prove its worth, let alone deliver win-win outcomes for Kiwis looking for work, and businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226791d30565164e57ada25e38e6a199c1\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: How does this compare to the Government\u2019s other employment programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ecbac41292456da801d0182040b0ca\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Over 11,000 people have been supported into employment, education, or training through Mana in Mahi and the Mayors Taskforce for Jobs\u2019 Community Resilience Programme. That includes 6,123 job seekers supported into work through Mana in Mahi, and 5,085 young people supported through the Mayors Taskforce for Jobs\u2019 Community Resilience Programme, with over 1,700 supported through the latter in the last financial year alone. These are just two examples of targeted supports that are proving successful in getting more people into jobs and keeping them off-benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee1f03eca4a2418d809333fcd869986e\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: How has this scheme helped employers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223355969691024034bf68a70bb7a1355d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Apprenticeship Boost has been paid to nearly 20,000 employers so far, and is a tangible way to build skills and expertise for jobs, as well as fill gaps and shortages in the sector. Apprentices are significant investments for employers, particularly in their first two years. On Tuesday, I visited Done Right Builders Ltd and met their director, Leith Kawana. Leith has employed seven apprentices through Apprenticeship Boost and pays them all above the living wage. He spoke highly of the initiative and asked whether we were keeping it. I said, \u201CYes.\u201D, but we all know that\u2019s not guaranteed under the \u201Ccoalition of cuts\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa218e314ba5404488b606877a552406\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: What other updates has she seen on employment in the construction sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ac4d91067ef4e80afb1d759f7b8cc3c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m also pleased to advise the House that around 308,900 people were employed in the construction sector in the June 2023 quarter, up 13,900 people over the year. This is also a broader reflection of the fact that the employment rate reached 69.8 percent during the June 2023 quarter, the highest rate recorded by the household labour force survey since the series began in 1986. Contrary to what the other side of the House thinks, this is a reflection of the fact that our economic plan is working, managed and led by our trusted Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002254b174300ded4be08c82bfbd3b12673b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00226e520b47944442e9866bd99e23dff21d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e520b47944442e9866bd99e23dff21d\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022af29593227c8469aaaee0a5b7a9b3eb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af29593227c8469aaaee0a5b7a9b3eb3\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe22d66937cb4e6aa0e1c4e673c26b9e\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Prime Minister say to the mother who wrote to me, appalled to learn that Labour voted against my bill to give flexibility in paid parental leave, saying \u201CThe difference in having the flexibility around paid parental leave your bill would have allowed during the early months when we were in and out of Starship would without a doubt have been life changing. This bill would have allowed us to both take leave at the same time and handle the incredibly difficult situation we were in together.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254f5417fc38c463ebec15e692565470b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, the Prime Minister is not responsible for the member\u2019s bill, but you can give an opinion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a274c405fc30492f854a007b6ba25c0e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want me to respond?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c8aefaa8cce437992f5e76eca6760c9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If you want to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b99ff1722ff47f789ea66f93193af1c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228283e4adc5d640858b1527fa148ca3c5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do you have another one? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f58b482655de4c33b7a2bf3daa588ef0\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: What would the Prime Minister say to the parent I have just quoted, who thinks it was wrong for the Prime Minister\u2019s Government to vote against a bill which would have given parents flexibility about how they arrange their paid parental leave entitlements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d308f016136b4915b42ffc191f1985e1\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I would ask that parent if she is aware that National did not support paid parental leave when it was introduced back in 2002. I would ask that parent if they were aware that Bill English had used his financial veto to vote down Sue Moroney\u2019s bill back in 2015-16 to extend paid parental leave. I would show this House\u2019s track record with regards to who supports parents and who has always pushed for paid parental leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c7022c208b64ea9a802eb7cb705e4fc\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: So is it the Prime Minister\u2019s position that the reason it voted down my bill is that politics is more important to that Government\u2014the politics of talking about National, of talking about Labour, is more important\u2014than making a pragmatic change for parents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f42982f51143458cbb8ce9ec093a0f06\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all. In fact, I did say there was some merit to what was proposed by the member who was asking the question. However, it has not been fleshed out enough, and some advice that we received made it unworkable. There is some health evidence that suggests that we should be slightly concerned, including information that we\u2019ve got from the OECD, the World Health Organization, and the Australian Productivity Commission that is supportive of a parent being at home for the full 26 weeks. So it is not politics at all. I\u2019d also remind that member that many of us have had members\u2019 bills in this House, including myself\u2014one of mine was the Social Workers Registration (Mandatory Registration) Amendment Bill. It was voted down by the Government of the day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca70daef922a443992bfbbe4d30e0277\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member is answering on behalf of the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022674af1d1490f4d4081dc886ac2aa831a\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Do the mahi, get the treats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b955d183984e2eb428cee4e54fa115\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Government\u2019s position\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1fe2b035bf44ace80e5bed33b83c42c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m going to say this, and when I\u2019m finished, Shanan Halbert will stand, withdraw, and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a2bbe7eab8642dfbab12e043161dfcb\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Chuck him out\u2014chuck him out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ba8632ba7e455b9e1455b219722c48\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Who was that? Whoever it was can stand, withdraw, and apologise after Mr Halbert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022117315a9a5054cf2abc2df4eeb23ddb5\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a0d39408b2c489ead961b1ceb219478\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. As I said yesterday, I\u2019m going to put it down to we\u2019re getting close to the election, but that is no excuse for trying to shout down a member who has the right to ask a question. It\u2019s the only time, as the case has been for quite some time, that I expect there to be no interjections. Shanan Halbert. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f585ef874714f259273d243ef602f0f\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297408681f75b4457a0d5bbda12e136ee\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Government\u2019s position that OECD and World Health Organization guidelines know better what a parent should do in their personal circumstances as it relates to parental leave than those parents do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac1eca0811c44506ab1a2c41d0c4b503\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the Government\u2019s position that we take informed advice from the experts to actually inform our policies. I know that\u2019s not what the other side of the House likes to do, but we certainly do do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d85005b584b45e085449c8971966a33\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that some parents find themselves in circumstances beyond their control, which mean they can\u2019t spend 26 weeks at home with their children, or they would prefer to spend some of that time with their partner, and why does the Prime Minister think they know better than the parents do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266b31be9a1164842b57e1a077c91092a\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: We absolutely understand on this side of the House the importance of paid parental leave. That\u2019s why we have always been the ones to push for it to occur, and we do not apologise for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adc9665c7bcc4c51a297d723cff7bab3\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister said today that consistent at-home presence for the first six months of a baby\u2019s life is actually really important, did the Prime Minister pause to consider all of those families who, for whatever reason, could not or did not make that choice, and is it the Prime Minister\u2019s view that they were not acting in the best interests of their children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c103abc00ee54b88a6f7d7c9dbde1766\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister is, of course, mindful of what New Zealand families need. That\u2019s why, on behalf of the Prime Minister, I and everyone on this side of the House have always advocated for paid parental leave for families in New Zealand, unlike that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d059d69e3d9a4e668a61c2b4c872ccc4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002272fa6fc842c545df830318c2973912c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272fa6fc842c545df830318c2973912c3\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Meitaki maata, Mr Speaker. What reports has he seen on the views of Moody\u2019s rating agency about the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002253c014ef816d466eb4bd614d5eae9d90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253c014ef816d466eb4bd614d5eae9d90\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In their annual credit analysis released this week, Moody\u2019s Investors Service has affirmed their view of the New Zealand economy, which has seen them in the past give a local currency credit rating and foreign currency rating of Aaa, with a stable outlook. The report said that the economy has remained resilient in the face of the shocks from the pandemic and then high inflation. It\u2019s reflected in the strong institutions and sustained policy effectiveness of New Zealand, including the Government\u2019s actions to support New Zealanders and the country\u2019s healthy fiscal position compared with that of our peers. We know that many New Zealanders are doing it tough in the face of cost of living pressures and a deteriorating global economic environment. New Zealand is well positioned to face the challenges ahead, with Kiwis in work in record numbers, wages rising, inflation heading in the right direction, and Government debt levels among the lowest in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c13eef62a64142229e035a10898c13d6\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What else did the report say about the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fda50f711a5e40eeb8ef4323e5ba9c76\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The agency said it expects the economy to remain resilient to shocks because of its trade openness, diverse and competitive agricultural export base, flexible labour and product markets, high wealth levels, and supported demographics, driven by solid net immigration. The agency said that this is backed by the Government\u2019s strong track record of managing shocks through effective fiscal policy while demonstrating fiscal discipline over the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255c235cbb574f789927c3f0e82defcf\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What did the report says about the Government\u2019s response to economic conditions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fae8236338574f13b9d8761352eed2f9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has moved to consolidate spending in response to global economic conditions, and Moody\u2019s said it expected this to continue. As I\u2019ve said previously, we will continue to take the hard decisions that are needed while keeping a balanced approach that delivers the strong public services that New Zealanders deserve. Moody\u2019s said the Government\u2019s strong fiscal discipline and comparatively low debt levels mean that the country\u2019s credit metrics are in a good position to respond to any further negative shocks to the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af87fac4da3b4b0282414aab0701c621\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important to have the endorsement of credit rating agencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f23901273504f8394ed5e93b55e5127\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: These ratings are important for ensuring that our cost of borrowing remains as low as is possible. It also gives people more confidence that New Zealand is a good place to invest. Moody\u2019s report is a sign of confidence in our recovery and rebuild and the Government\u2019s actions that have put us in a strong position to support New Zealanders in the here and now and invest in building a stronger, more resilient, and inclusive economy while carefully managing our resources to ensure the long-term sustainability of the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a28cd09d5de84c40b1fa9ee02f59ab0a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d64a470c75ac4591a09f04b8e085033e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d64a470c75ac4591a09f04b8e085033e\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What update on the fiscal outlook, if any, have Public Service chief executives been informed of at recent meetings reported to have been held with him, and what updated requests for spending restraint, if any, have been directed to those chief executives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00227c7c8ed1e5cb45609d3ff76251c72dad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c7c8ed1e5cb45609d3ff76251c72dad\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, I met with Public Service chief executives yesterday, as I have done several times in the last three years, as part of the Government\u2019s fiscal sustainability and effectiveness programme, which we announced in Budget 2023 in May. Public Service chief executives are aware of the most recent update of the fiscal outlook, as other New Zealanders are, and the Government accounts for the 11\u00A0months to May 2023 that were released in July. The next update will be the pre-election fiscal update, in September. In answer to the second part of the question, public sector chief executives are aware of the need to continue to make efforts to meet the Government\u2019s fiscal rules and return the Government accounts to a more sustainable fiscal position following the significant investments required to deal with the effects of the global pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45b0fbd9c374298adc1ed4fdbae9250\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that specific Government agencies, including the New Zealand Transport Agency, were directed to find savings of at least 2 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207afee13f06d41dcb19c2a83d2592852\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s fiscal sustainability and effectiveness programme is an ongoing programme. Any decisions that would affect departmental budgets will be dealt with in the same way that all Budget requests and decisions are made, and will be announced when it is appropriate to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d19999628989408bac05b0f5e6189e15\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the finance Minister, at the very last minute, has realised that the pre-election fiscal update will be a complete debacle and so is trying to quickly get decisions into Cabinet minutes to try and paper over the crevasse in the Government accounts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecf94b8b24e54654b777766b8425e9f2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member clearly wasn\u2019t listening to my primary answer. In the Budget in May, we had $4 billion worth of savings that we found, and we announced our fiscal sustainability and effectiveness programme\u2014page 64 of the Budget documents, for the member\u2019s reference. It is an ongoing programme of work because we are a responsible Government that seeks to make sure that we manage what is in front of us and seeks to make sure that we get a balance between fiscal sustainability and supporting New Zealanders. The only person who should be worried about a fiscal crevasse, to use the member\u2019s words, is the member, who cannot pay for the promises that she is making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234927011319b42faafa5cce5aee353c5\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it, after six years of spraying New Zealanders\u2019 money around with wild abandon, that he has, at the midnight hour, worked out that perhaps the bureaucracy should tighten its belt, and only now started issuing those directives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7b786d3245c41e9add60ae4a1171ec4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I repeat the answers that I have given. In Budget 2023, there were $4 billion worth of savings identified. We have an ongoing sustainability and effectiveness programme. I think what we\u2019re seeing here is a member who can see in front of her the fact that she couldn\u2019t pay for the promises that have already been made, and if she hasn\u2019t been keeping up with where the Government accounts are, that\u2019s not our responsibility. She now has to be the one to find some way of repairing the fiscal hole in National\u2019s plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eba89569a354872bae56fa333ec5869\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How big is his hole, and do\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b844ccfcd8da431baf240002e74662c9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is not in the public interest, I can assure you! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b93d321e5ec0467d981526955a71322c\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Mr Speaker. How big is the New Zealand Government\u2019s financial hole and what credibility will any commitments he makes to fixing it have when in every Budget he has delivered, he has spent more than he said he would six months prior\u2014on average, $600 million more than he promises in his Budget Policy Statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a861d1c5f1694ee2a7a243e1b0ed9bad\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated in my primary answer, the latest accounts for the Government were made available to the public in July. They did indicate a softening in the revenue stream for the Government. The finalisation of where that reaches will be in the pre-election fiscal update. But I say to the member: just today, in the questions that I\u2019ve answered already, we\u2019ve noted that Moody\u2019s, one of the most important rating agencies, have given a tick of approval to the economic management of the Government. When I look at the Budgets that we have produced over the last few years, we have struck that balance between supporting New Zealanders and being fiscally disciplined. That is clear in the outcomes we have seen, with some of the lowest public debt in the world, with an economy 6 percent bigger than it was before COVID, and with record low unemployment. We are proud of our record and make sure we look after New Zealanders and look after the books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ce05d094c5341a496b37036aed25522\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u00229610a5c642824e5e87b378c0b7b524af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229610a5c642824e5e87b378c0b7b524af\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: What recent announcements has he made regarding the anniversary of the Oranga Tamariki Action Plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022510cc686be67423cb45b43e40b53af3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022510cc686be67423cb45b43e40b53af3b\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I announced the one-year anniversary of the Oranga Tamariki Action Plan. This plan requires the chief executives of Oranga Tamariki, the Police, and the ministries of Education, Social Development, Health, and Justice to work together to achieve better outcomes for the children and young people in care. As well as children\u2019s agencies, many others have contributed to the work, including the Department of Corrections and the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development. There\u2019s still a lot more to do, but it\u2019s good to see progress. We know that it\u2019s often not just one agency responsible for supporting tamariki, and others need to step up across the system to better meet these young people\u2019s needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022893f1a975df44d2bb497eafc7a17bd24\u0022\u003EDr Liz Craig\u003C/span\u003E: What improvements has this led to for children in the health space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c770ed9c6af54136a88e519031afec4a\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: A key part of this initiative is ensuring alignment across agencies to make things easier for tamariki and wh\u0101nau. It\u2019s early days, but we\u2019re getting some outcomes already. For example, the partnership has led to initiatives such as senior social worker liaison roles being introduced at Starship\u2019s acute mental health unit, with the positions to be introduced in Wellington and Canterbury after the successful trial. Te Whatu Ora has also developed a tool to help children in care transition smoothly between healthcare providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022406406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259f9aead8cdd499b893578994867ab00\u0022\u003EDr Liz Craig\u003C/span\u003E: What improvements are we seeing for children in the housing space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280229fa8d1a04cf5a1fe744fb693288d\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: We are getting real traction and the impact is being seen in the lives of tamariki. For example, Oranga Tamariki and K\u0101inga Ora are working together to increase the number of homes available for disabled children who require more intensive support. These homes are being purchased in Christchurch, Wellington, and \u014Crewa, with more planned across the motu. Oranga Tamariki is also working with the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development to deliver new Supported Accommodation Service placements for up to 65 young people with higher and more complex needs. Young people moving out of care in residential settings need additional help and support, which these placements provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb909c7225524224b92880334afda1e3\u0022\u003EDr Liz Craig\u003C/span\u003E: So what\u2019s next for the Oranga Tamariki Action Plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227065a48207a0436482191f2ac88e2314\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I want to thank my ministerial colleagues and their officials for their commitment to the kaupapa, but the work has only just begun. Oranga Tamariki is continuing to work on its baseline needs assessments, and we will look at how agencies can work together to address these findings. We will continue to look at what needs to be done in housing, education, and health to meet the needs of young people. When I became the Minister for Children, what I would hear almost every time I visited social workers on the front line was that \u201CWe can\u2019t do this alone.\u201D I know we will all continue to work together to support tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e20f38e6f404dac8a1acfc9b23d9ab5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00226b462743ebf24136be956afe29d93eca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b462743ebf24136be956afe29d93eca\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How much money, if any, as a percentage of their departmental budgets, were Public Service chief executives asked to save in meetings this week and last week, and how big is the gap between the forecast OBEGAL for 2023/24 in the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2023 and Treasury\u2019s current estimates for OBEGAL, if any?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002239b671c32ad94875851346045fc540c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239b671c32ad94875851346045fc540c7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, as I\u2019ve already indicated in question time today, I met with Public Service chief executives yesterday as part of the Government fiscal sustainability and effectiveness programme, which we announced at Budget 2023 in May. The outcome of work under the programme, in so far as it relates to departmental budgets, is treated the same way as any other Budget meeting and therefore is confidential until such time as it is made public. In answer to the second part of the question, the estimate of the operating balance before gains and losses (OBEGAL) in the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update remains Treasury\u2019s estimate of OBEGAL. The next update will be at the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update (PREFU) in September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e8c9682f764888aa4066ca14d0b914\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Can he rule out the Government\u2019s fiscal hole is greater than $10\u00A0billion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248756ef8ceb0464c933c2e93573aadb4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the member\u2019s assertion in that question. As I indicated in answers to earlier questions, the latest update of the Government accounts to the end of May indicated a softening in revenue and therefore an extension out in what had been forecast for OBEGAL. The final forecast of where that ends up will not come through until PREFU. What I can rule out, though, for the benefit of the member, is the assertion made by the ACT Party yesterday that they believe that there was a fiscal hole of $27 billion on the basis of those May Crown accounts. That\u2019s because the ACT Party thought that the $2 billion or so that was softer than the Budget was a monthly number. It\u2019s not: it\u2019s the annual number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a88c99bc6abc456399284a3ff84f6c6b\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that housing Minister Megan Woods has refused to make any savings in her portfolio, and which other Ministers have reacted badly to being asked to make savings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c54ecd6a0ac4152b5571ad6a2671e65\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not true. All Ministers are on board with the Government\u2019s fiscal sustainability and effectiveness programme that we announced in May. However, I would concede this to the member: I\u2019m yet to meet a Minister who\u2019s happy when the Minister of Finance comes knocking on the door.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e27d6191abe249ca9485f64d68293a8a\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that Public Sector agencies have been directed to find 2 percent to 5\u00A0percent savings in the next financial year because, somehow, the Government failed to factor in wage settlements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00fd609d949498382f07c83cfcffc5c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to the member\u2019s question is no. The member is on pretty thin ice when it comes to that, because I\u2019m not sure that the member has any idea, in her plan, on how she would pay to make sure that we have teachers and nurses and social workers, because the National Party\u2019s plan, as currently unfunded, would have no room for that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221df9ae7db44d4e399637b7665d69cf86\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: After six years of refusing to listen to ACT\u2019s suggestions for reducing wasteful Government spending, has he come around to the fact that it might have been a good idea, just 40 days before the Government\u2019s books are due to be opened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290f2c2a6ed59425e9d2db2efcef7a7aa\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Two answers to the question. We had $4 billion worth of savings in this year\u2019s Budget and a programme to continue to drive efficiency in the Budget that we announced in May. Secondly, I\u2019m not sure I\u2019m going to take advice from the ACT Party given that they couldn\u2019t actually understand the Crown accounts and thought that a figure for 11 months was a figure for one month. I\u2019m not going to take advice from people with that level of economic literacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c7bfbb5b4fe4a24a983ce36304f59ff\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022552bb9df440e47bd9f7452589539babc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022552bb9df440e47bd9f7452589539babc\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What is the current nationwide median rent according to the MBIE rental bond database, and what has been the increase in the nationwide median rent according to the MBIE rental bond database since October 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00221fb568c09e4640609f5d2af6203d0de1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fb568c09e4640609f5d2af6203d0de1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing))\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Housing: The current nationwide median rent for new tenancies according to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment rental bond database, is $570 per week. That\u2019s an increase of $170 from the $400 median rent in October 2017. Stats NZ figures, however, show that the national rent rises in the last year are in line with the longer-term average and are also below the general inflation rate. Unsurprisingly, the way you solve a housing crisis is you build more houses. That\u2019s what this Government is doing, and congratulations to our Minister of Housing, who, along with our Prime Minister, today opened the Te M\u0101t\u0101wai public housing development on Greys Avenue in Auckland. Te M\u0101t\u0101wai is the largest public housing development delivered to date by the Government, with 276 units in total\u2014another example of this Government\u2019s commitment to public housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220d99c76c69847b79aa99a663ddfb7d3\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that the Government\u2019s war on landlords is hurting tenants by driving rents to record highs, and how can she defend a nationwide rent increase of $170 a week in the last six years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e269462f992a4887805c1c0a5a85eb25\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I reject that totally. In fact, this Government has been so good to the average New Zealander that it\u2019s not funny. No longer will renters be thrown out at the whim of a landlord. No longer can landlords just push rental rises on tenants whenever they want to. No longer will they freeze in the cold houses that they froze in in the nine years that the National Party was in Government. Things could never be better for our people at the moment: 13,000 new public houses. In fact, on year, we\u2019ve delivered the most public homes of a Government since the Nash Government in 1950.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283a98b71dee34ba0a1c2ac036c6d4762\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How does he square his remark just now that things could never be better for average New Zealanders with the fact that the State house waiting list has quintupled under this Government, 6,000 families live in motels, and nearly 500 families are living in cars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9280213944f4877ad01c1caa20e2dce\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Because we have made huge changes in terms of the housing market. We are building more houses than that previous Government ever did. We are looking after renters. We are looking after our people. We are getting the support of communities. We\u2019ve got a M\u0101ori housing strategy. We\u2019ve got a Pacific Island strategy. The previous Government that that member was involved with did absolutely nothing. OK, things could get better faster, but\u2014but\u2014we\u2019re doing pretty good; a lot better than that member could ever do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022743b97b1d7be4110b65917181e9f8e0e\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen the latest Crockers Tony Alexander Survey that suggests rents will continue to rise over the coming six months as a result of the rising costs associated with being a landlord under this Government, and when will she drop her commitment to the removal of interest deductibility for landlords that she was warned would put pressure on rents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff70877ffba4dd3bc27c15e20886bd9\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a number of reasons why we have higher rents, and it\u2019s not just about what the member is talking about. In terms of the survey, 22 percent of surveyed landlords said they were considering selling their rental property in the next six months. Of those considering selling their rental property, 39 percent cited a less profitable asset now that the mortgage interest costs can\u2019t be offset against rental income; 20 percent cited the cost of the new healthy homes standard. The number of rented properties has grown by 3 percent from March 2021 to December\u00A02022. Investors remain active in the market, with a share of 35 percent of purchases. We\u2019re doing pretty well considering what we inherited from that previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e350bfebb44cb79c7b2e0e941857b2\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How does she expect a young family with a mortgage to cope with hundreds of dollars a week more in interest costs because of the cost of living crisis created by this useless Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215e0a01406c14038900d3abee1609fb1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I would expect that young couple to continue to vote for the Labour Government, and we will ensure that they will be looked after, as we have done over the last few years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a83344d753b4ee58ebd98cf4dba939c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: How?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229afa13d8e8f64eed8307e013de2bf457\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, do I have to go through it all again? OK. Over 13,000 public homes added since we came into Government. In fact, year on, we\u2019ve delivered the most public homes of any Government since the Nash Government in the 1950s. Over 700 apprentices and 1,500 public homes by the time we left office. Over 700\u20141 in 7\u2014of the total public housing stock has been added by this document. Get that through your head, Mr Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ec9752ef60247bebef5087acde614d9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002283ca18717bd748cea920401f76be1e2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283ca18717bd748cea920401f76be1e2b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has she made about the redevelopment of Nelson Hospital?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00228c77e7d945a94f3a9468d23eb403fe54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c77e7d945a94f3a9468d23eb403fe54\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I was proud to announce this Government\u2019s next steps in the major redevelopment of Nelson Hospital. We have committed $73\u00A0million for the first tranche of redevelopment. The redevelopment will make the hospital more efficient and effective, with an emergency department which meets Australasian standards, is twice as big, and has medical assessment spaces which allow better patient flow. Enabling works in the redevelopment are due to start mid-next year, and construction in 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fafce25ffa841c2a9da0e8c8eb6a1d3\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What will stage one of Project Whakatupuranga look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022453453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265da80efcbf14c4faa69cf6e4cd0e666\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The funding allows Project Whakatupuranga to immediately begin design for the acute services building\u2014the first stage in a six-phase project, estimated at $1.09\u00A0billion, to be carried out over 10 years. The initial funding will enable work to progress on plans for a new acute services and in-patient building, projected to include 255 beds, eight theatres, and a larger emergency department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f998b6e92ff649a99dbcc11b037f0da9\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government committed funding to Nelson Hospital\u2019s redevelopment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d644b900d98d45509251ec48c0fd9e1c\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The current hospital is too small, the spaces are poorly configured, and some parts are not up to earthquake standards. The redeveloped hospital will be modern and fit for purpose for patients and their wh\u0101nau. It will also ensure that Nelson Hospital can provide care should a significant earthquake occur on the Alpine Fault, and will allow us to keep up with the region\u2019s growing and ageing population by helping futureproof the centre of Nelson\u2019s health network, providing accessible, quality health services for the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fd137b76a914179959278b08e15b11a\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: How does the redevelopment of Nelson Hospital fit into the Government\u2019s health infrastructure plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd349bc2e4714bb6a3e5268092fc8734\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The development of Nelson\u2019s hospital is one of 110 health infrastructure projects\u2014worth a total of $7.7 billion\u2014currently being planned and delivered nationwide as part of the programme to rebuild and strengthen New Zealand\u2019s hospitals and health infrastructure. Ensuring our health infrastructure is up to date and fit for purpose means New Zealanders will be able to better access the health services they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002201bbbb669b224b8ba032ec6958d15da2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00221d6f66748dfd4da7ad9be5c56309313e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d6f66748dfd4da7ad9be5c56309313e\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does she stand by all her statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022321d747ef5b14113b2f6862e45fe4f56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022321d747ef5b14113b2f6862e45fe4f56\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfc9441d3b8e436fac0592909e5926fc\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her recent statement about the health system that \u201CWe are actually doing alright.\u201D, when on Monday, Waikato Hospital had almost every ambulance in the region parked for up to four hours, waiting to get into the emergency department (ED), leading to St John\u2019s declaring a major incident because of the delays? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e73ff31c855142fcadf65da447e39d72\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. Overall, we have made phenomenal progress with our health system. I would look at the fact that in priority areas of workforce, we have grown our workforce, with 1,000 more nurses in the health system than there were 18 months ago; we are driving waiting lists down; and with respect to winter pressures, despite the challenges of winter, we are continuing to offer services, with surgical wait-lists coming down despite those pressures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034b8dd863f646bf9a66b5f8e0e5e2d6\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her recent statement that the health system is doing all right when Waikato ED was issued with a provisional improvement notice this week because severe staff shortages and unmanageable workloads had made the department critically unsafe? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3a79d156bfa4d61b90d7140e0faecb7\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I take and Te Whatu Ora takes those issues of health and safety incredibly seriously. I understand Te Whatu Ora is responding to that notice. In addition, I would note that the emergency department at Waikato is fully staffed for medical and healthcare assistants and is only four fulltime-equivalents short for nursing, and we continue to make progress on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe80b67dec14645a317a0e5e26a6c23\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: How are we to test the veracity of that answer when she is unable to report workforce shortages in EDs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d95e3930d4642c4a7c06bff3e281175\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a longstanding convention of this House not to call into question the truthfulness of a member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a3146304a35473086eb335179f7c931\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that point, Mr Speaker, that was not what Dr\u00A0Reti did. It\u2019s not unusual\u2014and, indeed, you encourage members through supplementary questions to test the veracity of answers. That is not to suggest that the answer was misleading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225746a9599b6e4c7085ea6289ed8fcd13\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll check the Hansard when it comes out, but I think Dr Reti said how can he test the veracity. I think that\u2019s OK\u2014you know, there\u2019s a fine line before suggesting that a previous answer, or the Minister, has said something that was not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765ff9a09d5b494d97b8f95bdadef7b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is what I have been advised by Te Whatu Ora, but I would also put it to the member that this Government\u2014particularly recently\u2014has done a huge amount to make sure that informative statistics and modelling is available on the issue of the health workforce in a way that it hasn\u2019t been before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298e48c1895144c5f979d6102ec34c2db\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: If the health system is doing all right, how does she explain a letter sent to her on 25 July from concerned ED staff at Palmerston North Hospital, who wrote, \u201CWe are practising under crisis standards of care without public acknowledgment that we are doing so, and the moral injury experienced by our staff is no longer episodic, but is a constant state of existence.\u201D, while at the same time communications with union representatives were stating that \u201CNational leadership needs to provide us with both the vision and the plan. We don\u2019t really need another site visit.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f773e432a544472d922413c03476e671\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I have visited that emergency department, and will continue to do so, to make them know that the Government is concerned around the status of that hospital. I am concerned to see that Te Whatu Ora responds to the report on the culture at Palmerston North Hospital, because that is very important, and I continue to work regularly with unions on these matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022636565ad982f49ff86724c403cf5ca1d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac49c3f6b2ee4577afbeee93ef942bfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac49c3f6b2ee4577afbeee93ef942bfd\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does she agree with the Minister for Social Development and Employment, who said yesterday, \u201CI\u2019m not saying that there isn\u2019t more to do with regards to dental treatment and access in New Zealand. That can\u2019t all come down to the welfare system, though. I think the health system and perhaps even ACC need to take a little responsibility there\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b83330f84d7e49078da2c90b606cd58a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b83330f84d7e49078da2c90b606cd58a\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I do agree with Minister Sepuloni that there is always more to do, and this Government has already shown its commitment to improving the oral health of New Zealanders. That\u2019s why in November 2021 it passed the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Act 2021 giving the Director-General of Health the power to direct local authorities to fluoridate their water supplies to protect people against tooth decay. That is also why the maximum special needs dental grant for dental treatment increased to $1,000, and it\u2019s why free dental care is available to children and young people up to the age of 18 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db1e51331734f1c8d6b4217dbb5384a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What else beyond fluoridation, free tooth brushes, and dental grants is Te Whatu Ora doing to improve access to basic dental treatment, including check-ups and cleaning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226044d49288b440d986c50ce89c2e4f68\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: As that member is aware, check-ups, routine preventive dental care, is privately provided in New Zealand in the majority of situations for people over the age of 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1c4e0e6cf534161b92f15f8870d6343\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is oral health part of general health, and, if so, is it equitable for New Zealanders to be expected to pay to access essential healthcare like dental?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879da2e7142648a082dd0e25d1d1eb7e\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Oral health is indeed part of general health. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve taken the steps of making sure that our water is fluoridated and of making sure that in constrained financial circumstances have access to the emergency dental grant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b88ea5b28f04d928e937fed6ccf997b\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned about oral health outcomes in Aotearoa when one in three adults experience tooth decay and one in ten root decay? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc4ef5cf85c541ac9697a4a94db824ab\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a95cad7b8ba5407390f03ff5a45bc481\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she acknowledge that with 73 percent of New Zealanders avoiding the dentist due to cost, poor oral health may be leading to more severe health issues and more expensive medical interventions, and, if so, what actions is she taking to alleviate those costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c5f671b0b4a4d74bc0b50c15c18e0c5\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is very concerned about the impact of cost on people\u2019s ability to access care of all sorts. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve removed the $5 co-payment on medicines and why we support free access to dental care for everyone under the age of 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002293861d924d564d94a6823416faa5eba7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbd29e80344f47aeba731c6976e56ecb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbd29e80344f47aeba731c6976e56ecb\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What has the Government done to make pricing clearer at supermarkets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00221eaadc904b0b4e65a605f9827e44c62c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eaadc904b0b4e65a605f9827e44c62c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I have announced new rules that will require grocery retailers like Countdown and PAK\u2019nSAVE to display pricing consistently and clearly by weight, volume, or number, depending on the nature of the items. This will require these retailers to show the cost per kilogram or litre, or, if the items come in small amounts like spices and essences, then it will be 10 grams or by the millilitre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc67669283bc461b96fcf274345f11bb\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: What will be the effect of these new requirements for shoppers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022652a994c132142fb8622d6032d918be8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Kiwis will find it easier to compare product prices at the supermarket. Shoppers will no longer have to scratch their heads and get out their calculators to work out which product is best value for money, and they won\u2019t have to get out their magnifying glass either. The unit pricing will need to be shown in a font size of at least 25 percent of the size of the actual price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2ead510c0a149ee81c69747851eadd1\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: How will this affect competition in the grocery sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd20c5e5102c4ac2b7562a34f24db82e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: With shoppers able to compare prices and products more easily, I expect to see an increase in inter-brand competition and I encourage grocery retailers to compete on best value for money, benefiting customers in the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d776f814774dc0be5c8dfc385b2955\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: When will this take effect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d0b4c76a21a4e60a7d262b9ccfedf06\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a new programme: \u201CShopping with Duncan\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022769fd07eae6e4919827e69f8d0215c76\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very happy to go shopping with Mr Brownlee any time\u2014I\u2019ll take a basket; you can take a trolley. The new requirements are due to come into force at the end of August, but supermarkets will have up to a year to implement the necessary systems. As the major grocery retailers already have the systems in place to display unit pricing, I expect that they will begin following the new rules as soon as they\u2019re able. Online-only retailers will have two years to implement these requirements, as we want to encourage such new and innovative ways to compete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227beefd98e4064b2788f402bc2af7a138\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00221a3ad0fe4d4048efa36f3fa13a14c476\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a3ad0fe4d4048efa36f3fa13a14c476\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Is he committed to delivering light rail in Auckland and Wellington? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00222316c16fafc442508cf0313340fe7fd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222316c16fafc442508cf0313340fe7fd0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Transport: The Government is committed to building a light rail connection from Auckland City centre to M\u0101ngere. In the case of Wellington, as previously indicated, we\u2019re committed to mass rapid transit, with the preferred option being light rail from Wellington Station to Island Bay. This is, of course, subject to further work as part of the ongoing detailed business case. Aucklanders and Wellingtonians want transport networks for their cities that reduce congestion and emissions, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re committed to delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f29744444e4bf3b764add8537cc8d4\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Michael Wood, who said in February this year that main works on the Auckland light rail project will begin in 2025, and is he willing to commit to this time frame; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4e34d2b7594b1db282242109035b52\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, that is indeed the planned time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf2f724a99d8427eab21ab3f88b66f10\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: When will the business case for Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving be completed, and how much more money will be spent on consultants between now and then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203a92d289a764e8fb3cacc5ebb343c60\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That piece of work is under way now, and it will be completed as soon as it possibly can be, because it is important that we plan and design, get the engineering reports, and get the seismic work done\u2014the work of those consultants the member refers to. The alternative would be for the member to make it up on the basis of his reckons, or perhaps outsource it to the Belt and Road Initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9dbfb0df870454b8cd39489a8a5c6d7\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Grant Robertson, who said on 29 June 2022 that he was \u201Cas confident as can be\u201D that light rail would go ahead in Wellington, and, if so, on what date, if any, is he \u201Cas confident as can be\u201D that construction will begin on this project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baa604ccf52f47cba75e9bf35d45dc4f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Transport, I always find it wise to agree with the Hon Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1f7b2aeb44a474b88c5b6147e4ec4d7\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that residents of Wellington and Auckland deserve highquality low-emissions public transport that is comfortable, quiet, fast, and clean, which light rail would provide, and will that be the priority for his Government\u2019s investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224531546e84a840eca0d398891bd23260\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely agree with the description of what Wellingtonians, Aucklanders, and, indeed, all those who use public transport should expect. What they won\u2019t get is that from the National Party, who plan to cut $1.5 billion out of the public transport budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ef4caea944b4880bacbb7303e4c1839\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7819e8a4401452aaa3cdbcab7baec36\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill\u2014Correction to Answer Given by Associate Minister of Housing (Homelessness)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u00226f06cbedcc0449f383558693402999d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f06cbedcc0449f383558693402999d3\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Associate Minister of Housing (Homelessness)):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal statement to correct something that I said a couple of nights ago during the committee stage of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c881b858c86b42a99b675962aa402fbb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ad7fd36d3744b06b6fb6eb0f573a982\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: A couple of nights ago, I said that \u201Cthe actual funds have already been devolved out to Te Matapihi and Arohanui ki te T\u0101ngata.\u201D as part of He Ara Hiki Mauri. What I meant to say is that the decision-making authority over the funding will be devolved out to the parties. The funds will be paid out in due course through usual contracting processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202c2cade4925469a9e3d5ef81604670e\u0022\u003ESpecial Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c8340e09a352455d9f01ef3f1d681708\u0022\u003EInquiry into COVID-19 Secondary Legislation\u2014Report of the Regulations Review Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1f633c3e2924cab818a8dcd8a740c5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1f633c3e2924cab818a8dcd8a740c5b\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Chairperson of the Regulations Review Committee):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of the report of the Regulations Review Committee on the Inquiry into COVID19 Secondary Legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is the report of the Regulations Review Committee which has been tabled in Parliament, and that report is into the Inquiry into COVID-19 Secondary Legislation. I\u2019d like to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223313dfd43248416786dde6acf0302b14\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. I\u2019m terribly sorry to interrupt the member, but I would like members to leave quickly and quietly. This is an important debate and I\u2019d like to hear it. I think we\u2019ll reset the clock and we will start this again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efda82e9f0c64b8eae971ad10596d816\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I so move. This is the report of the Regulations Review Committee into the Inquiry into COVID-19 Secondary Legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EFirst off, I would like to thank all the committee members as are listed on page 40 of the report, and the submitters as listed in the report. Particular thanks to Jason McHerron, the barrister who provided advice and substantial assistance in drafting the report. Finally, I\u2019d like to thank the clerk and the officials and advisers of the Regulations Review Committee. We lean very heavily upon them and we are routinely impressed with their diligence and their expertise. We are fortunate to have them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe would also like to\u2014well, I would certainly like to\u2014acknowledge that this was a very painful time for many people in New Zealand. A very painful time when they felt, in some cases, disunited or excluded. This is time for us to bring people back together, and I believe that the role of the Regulations Review Committee in our report is something that will give people heart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe role of the committee is that we do not review policy, but we do look at the secondary legislation to see if it is made in accordance with its empowering provision and consistently within constitutional principles. Therefore, it is a very serious report and it is a report that I consider is actually one of the more important reports that we\u2019re going to see on COVID-19, bearing in mind we also have a royal commission as well\u2014so put that to one side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo when looking at this, I think one of the things that impressed me the most was how poorly some Government ministries and departments actually took the role of providing good secondary legislation, and then complying with the constitutional arrangements seriously. Now, I understand and I think we can all acknowledge that, in many cases, the Ministry of Health, the main agency in this, was under an extreme amount of stress; that they were dealing with a situation that they had not seen before\u2014certainly not in the lifetimes of the director-general or others\u2014and that they were rushing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe problem\u2014and I\u2019m sure that members, when they wish to read the report, will understand\u2014is that if the secondary legislation is being drafted by ministries themselves rather than Parliamentary Counsel Office, there is often not the expertise in the ministry to be able to draft clearly and within the rules that are expected of legal drafting. That was really clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt was also clear that things seemed to not get better but worse as matters went on. When I think to the criticism of the COVID-19 Response (Vaccinations) Legislation Act\u2014which was actually introduced on 23 November 2021 and had its first, second, and third readings on the same day\u2014that bill received Royal assent two days later on 25\u00A0November, and that was actually really almost two years after the full first brunt of the pandemic had hit us. That bill did not go to a select committee. It did not go to the Regulations Review Committee. It was not given the sort of scrutiny that people should expect. I think it would be wrong to say that there was urgency. It was very unfortunate that this happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhen we look at\u2014commonly known as\u2014the traffic light system that was introduced, it could have taken another week or two or three, or even a month to bring that in. It\u2019s not as though we suddenly found in November 2021 that there was a pandemic. We\u2019re actually near the end of the worst part of it, and I think many people in this House, like myself, have had COVID a few times because, actually, the virus has moved on. It has become more transmittable and less harmful for many people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Attorney-General, the Government\u2019s own Attorney-General\u2014or Parliament\u2019s AttorneyGeneral\u2014criticised it at the time by saying it should have been sent to a select committee. He was right, it should have been. It wasn\u2019t. Instead, what we see in that legislation is that it actually referred to\u2014and the regulations coming from it referred to\u2014all sorts of terms that are unknown at law. Terms like \u201Cguidance\u201D\u2014that\u2019s not a legal term. Terms like \u201Ctraffic lights\u201D. Well, traffic lights are known at law as \u201Ctraffic lights\u201D. It was legislation that might have been drafted by the communications team. It was simply not up to scratch, and nor were the regulations from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt would have been better, and that\u2019s really clear from the review in the inquiry\u2014and I have to say, too, we take a very non-political approach in this: not apolitical, non-political; we work across parties. It would have been much better if people who knew how to draft legislation were drafting it\u2014whether it\u2019s that particular Act or if it\u2019s the regulations coming from it. It would have been better if it was less focused on communications rather than actually on the law, because there were instances where people could have been imprisoned under this legislation and the regulations without very clear guidance from the legislation. In other words, very clear words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, we have made some pretty strong statements about the quality of drafting by the Ministry of Health. That is what\u2019s happened: we\u2019ve, over the years, enabled ministries and departments to draft their own regulations for legislation that this Parliament has passed. There\u2019s a big problem with that, apart from the quality of drafting. That big problem is, where does one find it? Because what tends to happen is it\u2019s put on the website of that ministry or that department\u2014or not; it might not be put there. Or if it is, it might be unclear. It might have been put up because the people who put up or upload the information to the website are not necessarily people who understand constitutional law or even the necessity of having it there. Constitutional lawyers are not normally marketers, comms people, or people who know about those sorts of things. They tend to take things quite seriously for a reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThen we have, as opposed to that, Parliamentary Counsel Office drafting where its regulations are put on the New Zealand Legislation website. I would suggest that that is a good idea: that all regulations\u2014all secondary legislation\u2014where people can be subjected to rules should be in one place. We already have a website. We already have a place; it\u2019s called legislation.govt.nz. It is freely available to everybody. That\u2019s where it should be, in my opinion, and I think that the committee would be of that view. Because that is one place you should go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe should not have to have people wondering what the law is as they\u2019re being arrested for breaching it. We know that ignorance of the law is no excuse at law. But if you can\u2019t even find the legislation\u2014the law\u2014that you\u2019re accused of having breached, how could you possibly be found guilty under it? The answer is, I think we\u2019re quite lucky not to have had more court cases on this. Because, frankly, I think if we were not in a pandemic situation, there would have been more cases on this. If the cost of actually bringing cases wasn\u2019t so expensive, we would have had more cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s some things that we need to do, and we\u2019ve seen reviews in this\u2014this review has been ongoing, really, for quite some time. But bring ourselves back to this: we should not have regulation without people knowing what it is. Regulation should not be made willy-nilly of whether or not they\u2019re authorised by the primary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt has to follow a format, and there\u2019s a reason. It\u2019s not because we\u2019re being pernif\u2014I can\u2019t even say it now\u2014it\u2019s not because we\u2019re being difficult about it. It\u2019s actually because this matters. Law matters. Parliament matters. We cannot simply continue down a path of ministries and departments deciding they\u2019ll have the law that they\u2019d quite like, and that\u2019s really going to spin well. Come back to the law. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e11535dd428345cd838d4a7ce0d0191f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e11535dd428345cd838d4a7ce0d0191f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022841e1f39fc464a868b565f3edeb5344b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022841e1f39fc464a868b565f3edeb5344b\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E One hour for this House to discuss the work of the Regulations Review Committee\u2014my goodness, I am delighted. But this is of course a serious issue that we\u2019re discussing today. I remember in the early days of the lockdown, when one of my sons came up to me and said, \u201CWe\u2019re going into lockdown. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?\u201D and I said \u201CYes.\u201D, and I think that that is the strange experience that many of us have been through these last few years. It\u2019s this collision between what we\u2019ve achieved as a society\u2014the lives that we\u2019ve protected and the people who we have saved by the social contract that we upheld\u2014and the legislation that, in my view, we put in to back up that social contract. But at the same time, there were also so many gritty, personal experiences: people feeling fear and isolation and other people feeling reconnection with the people around them, but a lot of people feeling a real sense of uncertainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ESo it is crucial that we look back. We look back not only at what happened to people personally, but how the legislation came in around that\u2014to my mind\u2014social contract to ensure that we knew how we were going to pave and navigate the way forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EOne of the speeches that I thought best addressed the legal process we went through as we responded to the pandemic was given by the Hon David Parker when he spoke at Victoria University. At the beginning of his address, he put up a PowerPoint slide that showed the comparative mortality rates across countries in the OECD. He said, \u201CIt shows us that we\u2019ve had the best result amongst OECD countries in terms of low mortality.\u201D\u2014indeed, also in terms of low hospitalisation rates, and that\u2019s the truth. That was the truth of what we were going through, that was the backdrop to our actions, and that slide remains the backdrop to the conversation that we should be having today. It is absolutely clear that this must be a learning exercise, but let\u2019s not lose that backdrop image: that slide that Minister Parker put in front of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EIn my mind, there is one word that describes what we were doing at the time in addressing the pandemic, and there\u2019s one word that describes what the Regulations Review Committee were doing as we assessed compliance with primary legislation and appropriateness, and it is \u201Cbalance\u201D. We were attempting to strike a balance, a balance, essentially, between what Minister Parker called the collective rights versus individual liberties. He did speak to the fact that if taken too far, collective rights can actually be used to suppress minorities and individual liberties, but conversely, extreme use of individual liberties, trumping community rights, beget unjust outcomes too. It is about balance, and it\u2019s also about more than the academic balancing of rights. For us, it was also about the practicality of assessing the capacity of our health system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ESo before I go into more detailed reflections on the Regulations Review Committee report, I did, like my colleague of the committee, want to thank Jason McHerron, a barrister who did provide his exceptional skills and drafting support to the committee; our sagacious Regulations Review Committee chair, Judith Collins, our prior chair Chris Penk, and members past and present. To say that the COVID orders were a large part of our Regulations Review Committee life, that we were steeped in it in 2020 and 2021, would be an understatement. It was almost everything that we did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThere are many wonderful qualities about the Regulations Review Committee. One of them is that we are very self-aware. On the early pages of the report you\u2019ll find a section titled, \u201CWhat does the Regulations Review Committee do?\u201D We didn\u2019t want to assume\u2014we didn\u2019t want to assume. We know that a lot of people have interest in our fundamental work, but my view is there\u2019s a line in the report that sums it up: it \u201Cassists Parliament to retain control over the content of laws made under delegated powers.\u201D That is it. That\u2019s essentially the nub of what we do. So while it is sometimes difficult for our conversations not to bleed into substantive policy, that is not our work. We look at whether things are lawful or not\u2014that is absolutely key\u2014and whether the procedural rules were carried out in terms of getting us to lawful secondary legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ESo, looking at some of the big questions that we addressed, one of the substantive questions was: should we have standing legislation that addresses pandemic scenarios such as COVID or should we have bespoke legislation? Now, we weren\u2019t the first Regulations Review Committee to consider this; in fact, the 51st Parliament Regulations Review Committee considered that issue and considered that a tailored response was needed. And, indeed, the High Court in Borrowdale echoed that same sentiment. They said that there comes a point when Parliament ought to pass bespoke legislation because of the democratic nature of our constitution. So they thought it was a constitutionally worthy thing to do\u2014that we should be passing bespoke legislation. Now, in reality, what happened is it was a mix of existing legislation and bespoke legislation that we used in response to COVID, and where our committee landed is that that mix, that hybrid response, is really the ideal. You need to have something in place so you can take immediate actions\u2014which we did\u2014but you also then need to develop a bespoke response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe second question we addressed was the pace or the passage of primary legislation. The Hon Judith Collins has spoken to this as well, and I think there was discussion across the committee about when you would put something through urgency. Now, it must be the case that there is a time when urgency is appropriate. It\u2019s a process that\u2019s part of our Standing Orders, and the question is: when? Now, to my mind, if you have a scenario where you have a pandemic, where the stakes are high, where lives are at risk, this is one of those scenarios. Certainly, there are comments from the AttorneyGeneral that echoed that as well, some of those were given in his speech at Victoria University. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EAnother big area of question for us was: what should sit within primary legislation and what is more appropriate in secondary legislation? This really takes us back to the objectives of the Regulations Review Committee, where we are attempting to help Parliament retain control of the content of legislation. Now, this is really a balancing act, and I think the committee\u2019s view was that, for the most part, the balance was set right. Possibly the traffic lights framework was one that we had more of a discussion about. Some people, as I\u2019ve been speaking to them about this issue, have used the analogy of sort of having to build the train as you\u2019re going, or build the plane as you\u2019re going. That\u2019s not the analogy that I would use; I would see it as expanding the arena for decision making to allow our decision makers to be more nimble as they face the challenges that they need to on the ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EAnother question the committee frequently engaged with is: what are the appropriate guard rails that should be put around legislation like this? For the most part, the committee agreed that the guard rails were appropriate. An area of interest for me was the function of the courts, which I see as being fundamental in terms of one of the key guard rails. What we of course found as some of the decisions or the orders were challenged was that they can be invalidated by the senior courts if they are either contrary to the empowering provision\u2014so they\u2019re what\u2019s called ultra vires, or outside that power\u2014or if they breach the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. I\u2019d note here that there\u2019s express requirement in the primary legislation for compliance with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and so that allows the challenging of secondary legislation. The only way you can have secondary legislation which breaches is if within the primary legislation it allowed for that secondary legislation to breach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe Hon Judith Collins also made the point about accessibility, and I certainly think it\u2019s an ongoing issue that the committee has raised. I wholeheartedly agree, which is a good place for me to end my remarks, but also just to say that this is a project that\u2019s in the works and which the committee gets fairly regular updates on. So we will be shifting to a space that only when the legislation is public in that space is it lawful, and I think that\u2019s absolutely as it should be. So thank you once again for the opportunity to take these 10 minutes to speak on the important role of the Regulations Review Committee. I would encourage members of the public to read our report. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00225f2d0d582cbf49729e2df6a0a0c1e11e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f2d0d582cbf49729e2df6a0a0c1e11e\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101l\u014D e lelei. New Zealanders can sometimes be a bit shy about talking about constitutional matters, seeing them as the preserve of constitutional lawyers and learned university professors and judges. It was only as a member of the Regulations Review Committee this term that I\u2019ve really fully appreciated its role as a really important constitutional safeguard. It\u2019s one of the checks and balances in our parliamentary democracy on the power of the executive. It exercises, as Vanushi Walters has noted, that we are very self-aware, but I just think it is useful to explain what the committee does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo in terms of lawmaking, it scrutinises the powers in bills that are proposed to be given to the executive to make secondary legislation. So what\u2019s secondary legislation? Law that is made by someone other than Parliament under a power that Parliament has given. It could be regulations, orders, rules, or notices, and it\u2019s often the detail of implementation of legislation. So it scrutinises those powers and draws any that are inappropriate to the attention of the specialist subject select committee which is considering that bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt also looks, in relation to secondary legislation, at whether it\u2019s in accord with the general objects and intent of the Act under which it\u2019s made. The Standing Orders of this House, at Standing Order 327, set out the grounds where a regulation may not be appropriate: because it can trespass unduly on personal rights and liberties, or it appears to make some unusual or unexpected use of powers which the legislation has conferred. So it ensures, particularly in response to complaints which members of the public can make about particular regulations, that they have been developed and are being implemented appropriately, in accordance with the purpose and principles of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo it is a very significant committee, and I acknowledge the former chair Chris Penk, the current chair, the Hon Judith Collins, and the considerable wisdom of legislative counsel, who provide, along with the committee secretariat, enormous support to the committee\u2019s work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThis review was important. As others have noted, we had great help from barrister Jason McHerron, and also Professor Dean Knight, Professor Andrew Geddis, and others from Victoria University and Otago University, in terms of their submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo far, COVID has led to the deaths of nearly 7 million people\u2014confirmed deaths\u2014worldwide, and the actual numbers are likely to be much higher. I endorse the comments that Vanushi Walters made about the fact that New Zealand\u2019s response to the health emergency of COVID was rapid, it was effective, and it was very successful in keeping New Zealanders safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Government did rely on the Epidemic Preparedness Act 2006 and the Health Act 1956, and the powers in those Acts initially. Then, after two months, it passed special legislation like the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act 2020. As others have noted, that legislation was passed under urgency. There was no select committee process. There was a need for speed, but the committee in its report differentiated those pieces of legislation where speed was needed with the COVID-19 Public Health Response (Extension of Act and Reduction of Powers) legislation, which was passed in a day and which, potentially, really should have gone to select committee to allow more detailed consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the other points that the committee made when it was reviewing the orders\u2014and I think we considered over 200 orders\u2014was the constitutional principles that law must be clear and certain and that it must distinguish between what is mandatory and what is merely recommended, and, here, words really matter. The committee has provided advice to Ministers and agencies about the importance of words like \u201Cmay\u201D and \u201Cmust\u201D. It must be consistent with human rights, the power to make law as opposed to the power to apply it must be authorised, and any exemptions and criteria for them must be precisely described.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the things that is also recommended in the review report is that as well as the royal commission of inquiry, there should be a separate consideration by Government agencies to look at the specific lessons learnt to assist in future emergencies with the drafting of secondary legislation and these orders and notices, in addition to the royal commission. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c50c10d783fc4c589f1135deb255bc01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c50c10d783fc4c589f1135deb255bc01\u0022\u003ETONI SEVERIN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker\u2014and also on behalf of my fellow Regulations Review Committee members who are here, and past and present members. It was very interesting sitting on the Regulations Review Committee and being one of the non-lawyers on it. It\u2019s opened my eyes to a lot of understanding of what goes on behind the scenes. With the Regulations Review Committee being around secondary legislation, which we pass on to our other organisations to write, we would expect them to understand what they are supposed to be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, I would like to thank Jason McHerron, our barrister, but most of all, I\u2019d like to thank our staff, who were able to help us through all this. But the biggest thing is these policies are being written so that people can follow the rules and regulations that have been set upon them. But if you can\u2019t find them, if you can\u2019t understand them, what are you going to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re very fortunate that most people did abide by these, because they wanted to keep New Zealand safe. But we still created too much pain, and as we were saying in respect of the inquiry, there was no opportunity to scrutinise amendments made to powers to the secondary legislation and the COVID-19 response vaccination legislation prior to its entrenchment. Now, this caused a lot of pain for a lot of people. The thing is, we should have been able to be realistic and have an option for people to choose\u2014vaccination or test. But we didn\u2019t; we went down that one avenue, and we could not have free and frank discussion through the select committee process and hear from other people. That is a sad reality. We understand that when there is urgency, we do need to pass it, but we\u2019ve also got to take into mind that we are doing this for the New Zealand people, and if the New Zealand people feel they are not being heard, then we have upset New Zealand people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, when all this came through, and as the Hon Eugenie Sage said, it\u2019s around words. Words, I have discovered, can easily be misconstrued, and this is the most important thing. For myself, who is dyslexic, I can easily misconstrue things, can easily mispronounce things, and it might seem funny to some people, but it\u2019s not, because if we have the wrong terminology, you have major misunderstandings, and we found this in the law, in terms of what is mandated and what is merely recommended. You know, when we use words such as \u201Cmust\u201D for matters of mandating, or \u201Cmay\u201D for matters around permits, or \u201Cshould\u201D, or \u201Cshall\u201D, or \u201Crecommendations\u201D\u2014you know these are the factors when it comes to different walks of life and different people\u2019s understandings: it has to be clear and it has to be precise. The thing is, because we weren\u2019t clear and precise, this has caused so much pain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EWe were concerned also, as the ACT Party, around the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D provisions that we bring forward. But we have come up with 11 recommendations, and we hope for the future, in the Regulations Review Committee, that we do not cause this pain that we have through some of this legislation and these misunderstandings. The biggest thing of all is that most New Zealanders wouldn\u2019t even know that they can find these rules and regulations, and they wouldn\u2019t know how to look them up. But we also stated that we did have a problem around the Ministry of Health, and we also understand they were under a lot of pressure. However, if you were told once, if were told twice, if you were told three times, or more, you should be able to learn from those mistakes, because that is what we hope we would teach our children\u2014that, you know, you get a few chances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EWe understood the constraints they had, but we could have done better, like everybody else, if we had been able to listen to people through the select committee process that was missed out, so that we didn\u2019t cause that pain. And, as we said, we could have had some great ideas, and, included in that, we could have had vaccinations or tests. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f669623a472444989731e8edad010707\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f669623a472444989731e8edad010707\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this particular inquiry. I want to start my remarks by saying thank you and showing appreciation to the Regulations Review Committee, which is chaired by the Hon Judith Collins, and I thank the previous chair, Chris Penk. I know from my colleagues on this side of the House who have been fortunate enough to be on the Regulations Review Committee that it\u2019s something they feel very passionate about and it\u2019s something that we often hear about from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EOn the one hand, it seems like an awfully long time ago that this pandemic broke out, and yet on the other hand, it just seems like yesterday. I think if we cast our mind back to that time in early 2020, when we were\u2014via our television screens, mainly\u2014looking at how the rest of the world was coping with what seemed to be going to turn into a global pandemic. It seemed frightening and just unreal to us on this side of the world, but, nevertheless, these were the images and this was the information that we were dealing with. We were watching the spread and the mayhem overseas, and it became very, very clear that a fundamental strategic decision had to be made in relation to our inevitable experience of this pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs we watched every country grapple with the COVID-19 pandemic, it was very clear that some responses were not necessarily what we thought would happen. Some responses seemed to be somewhat chaotic. There clearly wasn\u2019t an exemplar out there that showed us what a playbook would look like; it was clearly going to be up to us to define our own rules. When the country faces a significant crisis, be it a war or be it any kind of natural disaster\u2014in this case, a pandemic\u2014the Government does have to move very quickly. As my colleague Vanushi Walters previously talked about, those were the circumstances that we found ourselves in. We did do a good job, and I don\u2019t think that\u2019s something we should lose sight of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe had a fantastic response to COVID-19. We had fewer cases, we had fewer hospitalisations, we certainly had fewer deaths than many other countries in the world, and we maintained economic resilience at the same time. So it was a world-leading response. But that is not to deny the fact that it also had a huge impact on people. One of the reasons why that happened is when we look at population measures and the normal distribution of what we need to do as a population, it often impacts on the individual. That\u2019s just what happens, but that\u2019s not to minimise it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo although the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act was necessarily and properly passed under urgency and, as we\u2019ve heard, because the stakes were high and because lives were at risk\u2014so it was a scenario worthy of that\u2014there was a social licence that held for some time. But we also adopted a number of suggestions from those legal experts, who have been named today and thanked, and from the Opposition, including to immediately put the Act to a select committee for scrutiny via its inquiry function. But it\u2019s now critical that we compile what we learnt so that should this ever happen again, we\u2019ve taken those lessons and we\u2019ve made good use of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhat the report found was that there was an appropriate balance, and I think several people have talked about balance, and that clearly was the aim, although the vaccination legislation perhaps should have been stand-alone legislation and the traffic light regime probably should have been primary legislation as well with that precise sort of detail set out in secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EParliament, including the Regulations Review Committee, was also found to have capably performed its role in scrutinising that emergency legislation, and the use of an existing select committee rather than setting up a new one was found to be preferable. It\u2019s true, as my colleague Toni Severin mentioned, that some of the legislation was difficult to navigate, particularly the protection framework order, and people\u2019s tolerance can be tested when things aren\u2019t as clear as they possibly can be. So that\u2019s an important thing for us to learn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo in summary, I\u2019d just like to again thank the Regulations Review Committee for all the insight they\u2019ve garnered through this process and through this inquiry. I welcome other speakers to make additional comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f775411f508643e2b0924eecc747ec4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f775411f508643e2b0924eecc747ec4f\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s important that we\u2019re having this debate today because this situation was one unlike we have ever experienced in living memory, and I think it\u2019s important to reflect on the unprecedented impositions that were placed on people\u2019s lives through this period. Of course, that was in response to a global pandemic that no one knew quite what it was going to be like or how bad it might be. We had some estimates but, of course, a response was needed, and, indeed, the Government did respond. I think most New Zealanders were quite prepared to accept a level of action in that very initial phase just because there was so little certainty around what the situation might evolve to become. But, as time progressed, there became an increasing level of concern, less certainty, and increasing frustration, and I think some of those aspects were noted in this report, where there were a number of challenges identified that could have been managed better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThere were some aspects that were done well, and I do want to acknowledge that, but when we look back at this sort of a situation, it\u2019s really critical that we take the lessons that can help any potential future situation be handled better, more efficiently, and with less impact upon the New Zealand population. In this situation, there were a number of areas where that impact bore through. Of course, we had a very low death rate initially, a low number of cases initially. As the response progressed and the rules changed, that evolved as well, obviously to the point where now we still see a regular number of cases and deaths as a result of COVID-19. But life is, effectively, back to normal in terms of the impositions that have been brought about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EHowever, throughout that period, those impositions had a massive impact. I think that\u2019s one of the key lessons that we need to keep in mind. I note the previous speaker Dr Tracey McLellan\u2019s comments that this does seem in one regard a long time ago, but, actually, for many people it is still very fresh in their minds because not only was it the risk of COVID-19 but, in many cases, that risk was outweighed by the reality of the direct impositions they faced in their lives, and that may have manifested in any number of ways. For example, not being able to see family members, ageing family members; the inability to attend funerals\u2014some of those aspects that were highlighted. Of course, then, there was the business impact as well, and we\u2019ve seen many businesses fail off the back of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EJust one of the aspects I wanted to touch on that I thought really highlighted the lack of clarity was around the issues raised relating to some of the jargon or the terms. I think it\u2019s important that the use of the word \u201Cjargon\u201D here has been used by the Regulations Review Committee because that does actually reflect better the terms that were outlined. In this example, I\u2019m referring to the contrast between a \u201Cclose contact\u201D and a \u201Ccasual contact\u201D, where people were left wondering what that actually meant and how that would play out in their daily lives for their families, their communities, their businesses, and, indeed, across the country. It was those sorts of things that led to a level of concern within the community that whilst the initial response had been swift in terms of making some meaningful changes to try and reduce the impact on the country, actually, we ended up in a situation where the potential of that impact was significantly outweighed by the reality of the cost, the toll that it took on communities, families, and businesses across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo it is really critical that we look back at how we might have been able to do that better, and some of those questions, as well, which have been alluded to by other speakers, around the speed at which Parliament progressed the primary legislation under urgency, obviously then leading to secondary legislation - making powers being significantly relied upon in terms of the response. That, I think, is an area that we need to look at, and I hope that the Government will consider that in the context of the current process as well, where they continue to push legislation through with very little scrutiny. I think we need to really be mindful of the impact, and this highlights for me that what we do here has such an impact in the real world and we must always try to do it better, so it\u2019s encouraging to see recommendations suggesting those improvements that could be made. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022975e0302c97646a78fa40c7d3b2df30b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022975e0302c97646a78fa40c7d3b2df30b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this very serious matter, the special debate on the Regulations Review Committee\u2019s report on the Inquiry into COVID-19 Secondary Legislation. Now, I was a member of the Regulations Review Committee and spent a happy six months there\u2014as the report will state\u2014looking into a number of issues in relation to secondary legislation, but also partly the issues raised in this report. So I do know that even though I left the committee in February, they were, even in the last Parliament, looking at the COVID19 Secondary Legislation to make sure that it was doing the job that it was meant to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI think just for the record, it\u2019s probably worth stating the function of the Regulations Review Committee, because I think even some in the House, and myself before I was a member of that committee, may not be sure of exactly what its function is. But it basically\u2014everything that is a regulation or part of secondary legislation is within the ambit of responsibility of the Regulations Review committee. The Regulations Review Committee does not look at policy; it just looks at the intent. So it\u2019s very much a committee that helps to assist the Parliament, really, fulfil its constitutional obligations, that the laws that are passed, and the ambit of secondary legislation is in fact what is enacted by whoever the decision maker is, in relation to the particular piece of secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo in many cases that may be a Minister, it may be a Government agency, but it is an important check and balance on our democracy, and it\u2019s a very collegial, enjoyable committee to be a part of, and it\u2019s nice to see members of the committee here today in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe Regulations Review Committee was especially important during periods of emergency, and we\u2019ve seen the important work that the Regulations Review Committee did during the Christchurch earthquake, and the recommendations that were made following that major emergency and huge event, actually informed the work of this report. We\u2019ve also seen, of course, the important work that was done during COVID-19. So I want to acknowledge the work that the committee did, and also for New Zealanders that are watching this debate, the huge impact that the pandemic had on our lives. Also, additionally, the huge impact that the response to the pandemic had on all of our lives. No one needs to be convinced of that. We all remember that time and it was immense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo the very good work and this very good report that the Regulations Review Committee has done into those decisions is very helpful in ensuring that when we undoubtedly and unfortunately, but inevitably, face another emergency, that we have the best systems in place possible to ensure that we are responding to them in the best possible way. It is worth, I think, acknowledging that the response, and I think it has been touched on by other members of the House, did save lives. I think\u2014I was looking at the Otago academic Michael Baker, estimating that around 10,000 lives were saved in New Zealand due to the restrictions put in place, and the way that COVID-19 was managed by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t underestimate how difficult those decisions were, but they did save lives, and it just shows you that these types of decisions are not easy. They\u2019re often complicated. They have to rely on existing powers, and existing legislation, and sometimes create new powers, and new either primary or secondary legislation. It is complex, but it\u2019s very important to have that scrutiny of it too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s also important\u2014other members have noted this\u2014there is a royal commission that has been announced into COVID-19, which, in addition to this report, will hopefully give a more holistic perspective on New Zealand\u2019s response to the pandemic. That was announced on 5 December 2022. I think the intention of it is not only to look at the work that was done in relation to the COVID-19 pandemic, but also inform future work for future pandemics. Of course, we hope this is a once in a lifetime event, but it would be naive to not prepare for the fact that it\u2014that we may face future pandemics in the future. So that royal commission, I understand, is considering evidence and will conclude mid-2024, which seems a considerable amount of time but, as you can see from this report, there is a considerable amount of stuff to go through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EJust in the time I have remaining, I just wanted to touch on a few of the recommendations made by the Regulations Review Committee in this report. There were a number of aspects that were touched on, and a number of recommendations made. When there was improvements that needed to be made, the Regulations Review Committee informed Ministers of that, and hopefully that indeed strengthened practice, and these are all laid out in the reports. In the interest of time I won\u2019t go through them all, but I commend the work of the committee to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022947f36dc0134440da4e1d015ce49bb2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022947f36dc0134440da4e1d015ce49bb2e\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak to this inquiry that the Regulations Review Committee has made into the secondary legislation for COVID-19. This was a huge event for New Zealand and for many New Zealanders, and had a really big impact in different ways on people. It\u2019s been really important for this committee to undertake this inquiry and to have a look at the process that was undertaken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to go through some of the report, but I\u2019ll first just briefly outline what it is. So the report was taking a big picture look at the secondary legislation that was made to deal with COVID-19, and asked: was it consistent with principles for good legislative design, were there grounds for the Regulations Review Committee to draw the secondary legislation to the special attention of the House of Representatives under Standing Order 327, how well did the secondary legislation follow the principles that the Regulations Review Committee established in 2016 for emergency legislation, and do those principles need to be updated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo the Regulations Review Committee\u2014just to explain it\u2014scrutinise all secondary legislation, and the powers in bills to make that secondary legislation. It\u2019s part of the committee\u2019s job to check that those with delegated powers to make legislation use them in the way Parliament has intended. This function is constitutionally significant. It assists Parliament to retain control over the content of laws made under delegated powers. During periods of emergency, such as with COVID-19, secondary legislation is used to manage extraordinary circumstances and may adversely affect the rights and freedoms that we usually enjoy. So it\u2019s important that there are safeguards to ensure those rights are kept in balance with the other work that emergency laws need to do. It does not examine the policy behind secondary legislation, but it instead looks at whether that secondary legislation was made in accordance with the empowering provisions, and consistently with constitutional principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo if I turn to particular concerns that were raised, which was on page 28 of the report, it says identified concerns were: unauthorised sub-delegation of the power to make secondary legislation; unauthorised retrospectivity; legislation that was drafted as guidance rather than rules; instrument titles that did not identify the instrument\u2019s COVID19 purpose; whether \u201CHenry VIII\u201D provisions in empowering legislation were necessary; the quality of drafting of section 70 of the Health Act orders and inadequacies in publication of historical instruments; lack of certainty and clarity in secondary legislation including in relation to the Protection Framework Order; measures being implemented in secondary legislation that would be more suitable for parliamentary enactment, such as the Protection Framework Order; latent/inactive provisions in the Protection Framework Order; the stated purpose of secondary legislation not matching its actual purpose; the need for clarity in identifying whether people are affected by secondary legislation; secondary legislation containing potentially unjustified limits on human rights; vagueness in the framing of infringement offences\u2014for an infringement offence to be appropriate, the offence must be one that involves actions or omissions that can be assessed as a straightforward question of fact\u2014open-ended time frames for legislation that has a significant effect on personal rights and liberties; overly complicated definitions and requirements; impossibility of compliance with requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo quite a list there. I\u2019ll turn to some of the comments made by some submissions in relation to the Protection Framework Order. Associate Professor Dean Knight of Victoria University of Wellington submitted that the pandemic had sometimes necessitated swift and expedited decisions through delegation of flexible emergency powers. However, he submitted that the vaccinations regime did not justify this approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe Human Rights Commission submitted that the Protection Framework Order was not easily understood without reference to detailed guidance published by the Government. Moreover, significant aspects of its content were inaccessible under this guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ECaitlin Rutherford, Gretchen Keer-Keer, and Professor Geddis submitted that measures forcing businesses to close and rules permitting people to go places only if vaccinated were more appropriate for primary legislation, not secondary legislation. They thought that the accountability mechanisms for secondary legislation do not make up for the lack of open debate and scrutiny through the parliamentary law-making process. This undermines the legitimacy and transparency of the law, as New Zealand had been living under the pandemic response for more than two years. After that time, they submitted, there was arguably less need for the legal response to COVID-19 to be quickly decided and imposed by the executive branch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EDr Knight submitted that Parliament failed to feel the heat for legislative design, key policy settings and rights implications, nor was the design of the framework given the necessary time to breathe or evolve in light of feedback and concerns. This was because the key policy settings and details were not available to inform democratic debates about the virtue or otherwise of the regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9c7da38305d42b79a738fc6d081c559\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9c7da38305d42b79a738fc6d081c559\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Meitaki maata, Madam Speaker. It is great to take the last call, as the MP for Takanini, in the special debate on the Regulations Review Committee\u2019s report on the Inquiry into COVID-19 Secondary Legislation. It\u2019s good to see you, Mr Speaker, come into the House. When it comes to COVID-19, first of all I just want to say a huge thankyou to the committee for their inquiry and also their report, and also for laying out what in particular the committee do and the terms of reference for the inquiry itself\u2014a huge thankyou to the committee members there. When it comes to COVID-19, I always like to take the opportunity to again thank you, our awesome primary and community providers\u2014the hard-working nurses, doctors, healthcare assistants, pharmacists, kai\u0101whina, secondary care healthcare professionals, and also our essential workers, who risked getting infected when they were out there during this time, taking care of our community at large. So a huge meitaki maata to you all as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI remember when COVID-19 was spreading throughout the globe, on the TV and through our medical groups we were quite anxious in South Auckland. As a GP during that time, we were coming out of the measles pandemic that happened during the 201819 period. When we first heard of the measles case in the South Island, we knew that if that came up to Auckland, it would go straight through to South Auckland and then connect to the Pacific Islands, which was the case. So, when it came to COVID-19, we were also scared, because this was a new virus happening. We knew the vulnerabilities, the areas and pockets of our community that were getting affected largely. So we pushed our local MPs at that time to make sure that the Government was going to put in legislation or some sort of regulation to make it easier for us on the ground to do the work, to do the mahi to protect our community. We wanted the Government to act decisively and early, and that\u2019s what we got\u2014was to go hard and to go early from that Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWe all know that, being a new virus that was spreading, we were only learning of what countries were going through themselves. When it comes to grappling with COVID-19, again, we all hear from colleagues across the House, there was no playbook or rulebook on how to manage this. And, again, we were learning from our colleagues across the different countries across the globe. And it was our biggest health challenge. We remember the Spanish flu that happened in the early 1900s. We remember the swine flu; again, that happened just over 10 years ago. I was working at Middlemore Hospital. When you talk to other people, whether it be Dr Reti from Northland, having worked there in R\u0101wene Hospital, our vulnerable communities across Aotearoa, we just want to make sure that everyone is protected and that there is legislation fit for purpose to do the job. When we look at the Health Act, in many ways it was focused on quarantining. It needed some more work in terms of making sure that the framework was targeted at COVID, hence why we needed this new legislation, and therefore we got the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWe can look back and look at the cases that had COVID-19, the measures that were put in to protect our wh\u0101nau. I remember our maraes getting on board, the many Pacific-M\u0101ori providers, whether it be in Manurewa, Papakura Marae getting their kai\u0101whina and workforce involved, making it targeted for people. We can look back and say, \u201CHey, we did a good job.\u201D And we can hold an inquiry to make sure that we can do an even better job if it was to happen again. But it is getting prepared for that. We look at the recommendations from the committee. We\u2019ve heard, from a few points that have been raised, the balance between primary and secondary legislation. Yes, there was some appropriate balance between that. But we do look at the vaccination Act: that could have had its own legislation and making sure that that was solid. We look at the traffic light regime: that could have been put into primary legislation to make sure that, in the secondary legislation, there was only active orders there\u2014so making primary legislation more substantial in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003ESo, across the House, I\u2019d like to say a huge thankyou to the committee members for their report on this inquiry, and I thank everyone that\u2019s been involved. I commend this report to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225b358d14350b478582e406bb984057b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b358d14350b478582e406bb984057b3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f72b367eff82437c9922d934de5596cb\u0022\u003EEstimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f844e4dc480458a80356162ce678de7\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000262\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 2 August on the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228b2c8f66c9df4ffa9028d98eab507a20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b2c8f66c9df4ffa9028d98eab507a20\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, members. The House is in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. The Business Committee has determined to organise the debate by portfolio, so there will be no sector-specific debates. All Votes are available for debate, but only specific Ministers will be available each day to speak to the indicated portfolios only. The Government has indicated that today we have the Minister for Children, the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, and the Minister for Social Development and Employment. Each debate will be led by a call from the chairperson or member of the committee that considered the Estimates most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThis debate expires after 11 hours, at which point questions will be put that the Votes stand part of the Schedules and on the provisions of the Appropriation (2023/24) Estimates Bill. There are four hours and 29 minutes remaining in this debate. New Zealand Labour has one hour, 47 minutes remaining. The New Zealand National Party has one hour, 33 minutes remaining. ACT New Zealand has 30 minutes remaining. The Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has 31 minutes remaining. Te Paati M\u0101ori has 11 minutes remaining. Dr Elizabeth Kerekere has six minutes remaining, and the Hon Meka Whaitiri has six minutes remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe Estimates debate should be relevant to the Government\u2019s current spending plans as contained in the Estimates of Appropriation. A compendium of the reports of select committees on the Votes is available on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe question, once again, is that the Votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriation for 20232024 stand part of the Schedules. Members, we start with the Minister for Children. The Minister is available from 3.50 p.m. until 4.20 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce69b10aa213416daebd0960da10632e\u0022\u003EChildren\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00229a9c6a0935a84eb9b54f4c4438521b58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a9c6a0935a84eb9b54f4c4438521b58\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As the chair of the Social Services and Community Committee, it\u2019s my pleasure to lead off the debate for Vote Children for the 2023-24 Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Hon Kelvin Davis appeared before the select committee to discuss the Vote. I want to thank the Minister for attending this session and I want to thank the chief executive officers and the officials for appearing and responding to written and oral questions. And I also wish to thank our select committee clerks and also the select committee itself for the hard work that we do during this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki, the Ministry for Children, was established in November 2017 to make the existing care and protection system more centred and focused on prevention and early intervention. The Minister for Children is responsible for the whole Vote except for one appropriation relating to the Crown response to the royal commission of inquiry to abuse in care. Oranga Tamariki administers the Vote. Total funding sought for the Vote in 2023-24 is $1.54 billion. The main appropriation in the Vote is the multi-category appropriation: investing in children and young people. The appropriation has $1.46\u00A0billion allocated for it, which is up on the previous year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EVote Oranga Tamariki included seven new policy initiatives in 2023-24. The Minister was asked what factors had contributed to the increase in youth offending despite a 63\u00A0percent decline over the last decade being noted. The Minister said that ram raids received a disproportionate amount of media attention and pointed out that they comprise 0.38\u00A0percent of crime. The Minister added that many youth offenders had experienced a great amount of trauma in their lives. He said the offending arose from a combination of factors which the Government was working to address through several Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe also asked how Oranga Tamariki planned to reduce youth offending. The Minister explained that a number of new programmes are targeting recidivist youth offenders, including Kotahi te Whakaaro, which provides a wraparound response for youth offenders aged under 14. About 73\u00A0percent of youth referred to this programme had not reoffended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe asked how Oranga Tamariki supports children under the age of 14 who are caught breaking the law. We heard it now uses the Kotahi te Whakaaro approach to involve the wider family as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe asked how iwi and M\u0101ori service providers would be supported by Budget 2023. The Minister explained that the Future Direction Action Plan allows Oranga Tamariki to build working agreements with iwi and M\u0101ori service providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe asked what Oranga Tamariki is doing to reduce physical harm to children by their caregivers and noted it is redesigning the complaints system with non-governmental organisation VOYCE\u00A0-\u00A0Whakarongo Mai so that people who had experience of being in care could give direct feedback on the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe asked what improvements Oranga Tamariki had made to its care and protection residences. Oranga Tamariki told us it has set the goal of making its care and protection residences a therapeutic place for children to stay in. This included making buildings safer for children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe asked what programmes were in Budget 2023 to upskill current social workers and train new social workers. The Minister said that Oranga Tamariki is focused on implementing more iwi-led practice for social workers. Te Pu\u0101wai, which commenced in January 2023, is a programme that aims to create a wellbeing-focused practice framework for social workers. Wh\u0101nau who receive help from their social workers also noted a positive difference in their practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe covered a lot of ground during our investigation and the Estimates hearing was undertaken over a good long hour of time. I wish to acknowledge the Minister for the time that he spent in the chair. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226cf465a971c54070a7a1f807819f5f0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cf465a971c54070a7a1f807819f5f0e\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to thank Angie Warren-Clark as chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee. I do have quite a few points to make, but in the interests of time, I\u2019ll probably just race through them, so my apologies now if some of what I say is a bit disjointed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EBut this does continue to be a significant time of change for Oranga Tamariki. I think it\u2019s appropriate that we start by acknowledging the many staff who work for Oranga Tamariki. We\u2019ll be the first to admit that we don\u2019t get everything right all the time\u2014or they will be the first to admit they don\u2019t get everything right\u2014but there are a lot of great people doing their best to make sure that our most vulnerable children, their needs are met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ETransforming an organisation of this size isn\u2019t easy and there are a number of challenges, and they have been highlighted recently in the media, but change is happening. There have been wellpublicised events in youth justice residences, and we are taking a comprehensive look about how to address those issues. We are starting to see results of the hard work over the last just under two years that the future direction plan has been in place, so I\u2019d like to run through a few highlights. This year, Oranga Tamariki has supported nine enabling community prototypes to redesign and reimagine what care looks like for tamariki in those particular communities. That means that partners lead the design, the development, and implementation of the models. We\u2019re making sure that those models are bespoke to the communities that they come from. We believe that communities know what is best and they set the pace and they are the decision makers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important to remember that Oranga Tamariki supports around 50,000 children in the community, supports them to ensure they stay out of care. I think that\u2019s very important. We now have the lowest number of children and young people entering care since 2004, and we have the lowest number of children in care since 2010. In the last four years, the number of tamariki in care has reduced by over a quarter, by over 25 percent, and that, again, is a huge achievement. Of the children that do come into care, 78 percent of them are now being placed within wh\u0101nau and within their own communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EOver the past few years, Oranga Tamariki has continued to embed the direction to only use uplifts where there are no other options available to keep children safe, and the use of this section of the Act has significantly reduced from 1,395 in 2018 to just 430 in 2022.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki continues to make fundamental changes in its approach to social work practice to better meet the needs of children and families, and to allow social workers to work in complementary ways to new iwi-, M\u0101ori-, and community-led approaches. Iwi and M\u0101ori organisations received $155 million last year; that was up from just $55 million in 2017. As I said, less than two years ago, in September of 2021, the future direction plan was launched. It sets a clear direction for the ministry and it charts a multi-year path to shift the approach, the operating model, and the practice of Oranga Tamariki to be truly tamariki- and wh\u0101nau-centred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAs I have mentioned, one of the key planks of the future direction plan is the enabling communities to work, and, to keep things short, that\u2019s about communities making the decisions in how they care for their young people. An example is the launch of Te Ara M\u0101tua in Hawke\u2019s Bay in April. It\u2019s a Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu - led approach to support and provide care for tamariki that are living in Hawke\u2019s Bay. Again, it\u2019s about putting resources and decision making in the hands of communities so that they can lead the change and the solutions for their tamariki and wh\u0101nau. Te Ara M\u0101tua aims to provide services and support to keep tamariki and their wh\u0101nau out of the Oranga Tamariki system and return those tamariki currently in the system to the protection of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAnother initiative driving the organisation\u2019s change is the Oranga Tamariki Action Plan, and I just spent a bit of time at question time describing some of the highlights from the Oranga Tamariki Action Plan, which is one year old. I\u2019ll leave it there for now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4f509ba9b2a439dac1047af6920dc8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4f509ba9b2a439dac1047af6920dc8b\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I welcome the opportunity to engage with the Minister in this. It\u2019s a really important area, and it\u2019s been a tough few years, I think it\u2019s worth acknowledging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on, possibly predictably, VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai\u2019s calls to different parties around the promises that we\u2019ve committed to and explore in a little bit more detail some of those and the Government actions and sense of time frame on it. The first thing they noted is that we\u2019ve promised to take care of young people in care and make sure that they all have what they need, and yet many are experiencing housing insecurity and homelessness and that\u2019s happening far too often.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EToday in question time the Minister noted that, through the plan, there are 65 new placements that are being put in place and homes being built, particularly for disabled young children. I\u2019m interested to know, in terms of those places, actually, what percentage of need is being met now? When does the Minister expect every young person coming out of care or in care to have appropriate housing? Is there a sense of time frame around that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00228650a42460144b4780994d80162f92c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228650a42460144b4780994d80162f92c1\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. It is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAs part of the Oranga Tamariki Action Plan, we\u2019ve done a number of deep dives, which is, I guess, \u201Cbureau-speak\u201D for doing a needs analysis of what we actually have in it. First of all, I\u2019m surprised that these deep dives, these needs analyses haven\u2019t been done before. What it has shown is that there are massive gaps in the provision of support for our young people, in particular those who are transitioning from care into the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EIn terms of housing in particular, the deep dive there highlighted, I think, that over the next couple of years there are about 5,000 young people who will be transitioning out of care, but there are only about 150 beds to cater for those numbers. Now, that\u2019s over a number of years that those young people will be transitioning from care into the community. Some of them may go back to their caregivers, some may go home, but many want to be independent and they want to be able to flat and live with friends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve done is got the baseline, and, now that we know the extent of the problem, that\u2019s where we have to work to address it. I\u2019m sorry that I can\u2019t give a definitive date to meet that extreme need\u2014you know, that need of those 5,000 people over the next few years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe most important message, I guess, is that now we know the extent of the problem, it\u2019s time to address it. It\u2019s just a pity it\u2019s taken so long to actually quantify the extent of the need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7d7efe61b924f2ca12a445f9c4cb67c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7d7efe61b924f2ca12a445f9c4cb67c\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I also want to echo what the Minister was saying in terms of surprise that this work and that detailed work hasn\u2019t been done already. I remember when the National Party was last in Government and were making reforms that that was supposedly a central focus. So it is quite shocking to me and I suspect reflects a lot of our young people\u2019s sense of frustration and concern that not enough has been done. They\u2019ve heard the rhetoric for so long and maybe, hopefully, now are just starting to see the results. So I look forward to when we see that mapped out and also assume that speeding up the public housing provision and the possibility of rent controls may be something the Minister might want to advocate for in terms of ensuring those young people who are wanting to be independent can do so realistically in our economic settings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in terms of the second promise where we all said that we would make sure young people in our care have safety and stability in their life, and they note that they\u2019re not being provided yet with that stability when they enter care and caregivers aren\u2019t consistently assessed before they\u2019re placed with them, and they\u2019re not being kept safe when they\u2019re in care, particularly in residences, and we\u2019ve had quite a lot of conversation about that. But I\u2019m interested to know, in terms of that assessment as well as the transition into care, how many social workers there are and what there caseloads are. I know that training is going in but we know that historically the caseloads have been well above\u2014three times above at one point\u2014international best practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really interested to know if we\u2019re making progress on that, because if we\u2019re going to have this system for a little while, then we need to make sure that the staff are able to build those relationships and support those young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022798f6fa0c60d47a4b6a4fa4fdc8224ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022798f6fa0c60d47a4b6a4fa4fdc8224ab\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her question. One of the things we found out in the development of the Future Direction Plan was that the caseloads were way too high, but, secondly, that measuring actual numbers of cases is probably not the best measure, and it\u2019s more a measure of workload, because one case may take up a huge amount of time and resources for a single social worker. So what Oranga Tamariki is doing through the Future Direction Plan is looking to improve the workload\u2014have a look at the workloads of social workers, not just count the number of cases. Somebody might have a couple of dozen cases that have less work than someone who\u2019s got half a dozen cases. So the workload is probably more important to address than the exact numbers of caseload.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00224a57b57f9e27470993082e41f36ecd0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a57b57f9e27470993082e41f36ecd0e\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, it\u2019s noted that in terms of investing in children and young people, under the Estimates here, there\u2019s an increase of some $65.475\u00A0million, taking it up to a total budget of $1,462,000. It\u2019s also noted, Minister, that there\u2019s a decrease in the capital expenditure from $83 million to $48.6 million. Minister, you\u2019ll be well versed with the fact that it\u2019s just been reported before this committee, in the Estimates report, that, in relation to youth justice facilities, you spoke about the potential of intergenerational effects of incarcerating youth, and the abuse that has historically occurred in youth justice facilities. You expressed concern about the potential for those same patterns of incarceration and abuse to reoccur. Minister, you\u2019ve committed, in recent weeks, for an additional two youth justice residences to be built. That\u2019s in addition to the five that are there. Noting the decrease in capital expenditure, as I said, from $83\u00A0million to $48.6 million, how is that going to be funded under this Estimate Vote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EFurther to that, Minister, there is a concern that is noted in terms of the partner-provided services. The purchasing power of Oranga Tamariki for partner-provided services\u2014there\u2019s been an increase in that, but it\u2019s also noted that there\u2019s been a specific decrease in certain parts of social service providers. Could the Minister give clarity around who those social service providers are in terms of the decrease in the Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00227a1c2c125ee54979bc9cfd9bb5cc6bf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a1c2c125ee54979bc9cfd9bb5cc6bf4\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E OK. First of all, just to correct the member\u2019s assertion, Oranga Tamariki hasn\u2019t committed to building two youth justice residences. So, for example, in South Auckland, there is Korowai Manaaki. It is a youth justice residence. It has, probably, five units, which\u2014I don\u2019t like the term \u201Cunit\u201D because it sounds very prison-esque; they\u2019re more like dormitories. What we are suggesting is that we build another dormitory there, or dormitorylike block or unit at a current youth justice residence. Now, the issue here is that regardless of the age of a young person entering a youth justice residence, or regarding the needs\u2014the needs\u2014more importantly, of a young person entering a youth justice residence, there is no continuum of care. In other words, it is a one-size-fits-all situation for those young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWhat we are saying is, in particular, now that 17- and 18-year-olds are residing in youth justice residences, we need to make sure, first of all, that the physical facilities are appropriate for those young people, but, more importantly, that the model of care is more important for those young people. Regardless of their age or their needs, there needs to be a continuum of care. Some have lower needs; some have higher needs. So all Oranga Tamariki is saying is that there will be another dormitory-like unit built, probably at Korowai Manaaki, and that will probably cater to have 20 beds in it, and another facility in the South Island, probably in Christchurch, which would have 10 beds. They are there to cater for the higher level needs of young people. So I just need to clarify: Oranga Tamariki is not building new youth justice residences. Oranga Tamariki is looking to build two dormitory-like units in already existing youth justice residences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00224b1e760ad07e4878b165667e52622718\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b1e760ad07e4878b165667e52622718\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like to go to reports from the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor. They don\u2019t seem to improve each time we appear before you. I just want to clarify some data that has come about in the latest Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, 2021-22.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EIt found that Oranga Tamariki made 45 percent of their \u201Cno further action\u201D decisions were incorrect. Out of 137 reports of concern for tamariki in care, they found that 62 of these \u201Cno further action\u201D decisions were incorrect. Does that mean that we are not looking into these reports of concern well enough, that we\u2019re not taking the care and the time that we need to, when we\u2019re finding that those \u201Cno further action\u201D decisions were incorrect? Are we putting our young people in further danger by not assessing these reports of concern correctly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d951bc6a73b447259b1d7de107a28f24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d951bc6a73b447259b1d7de107a28f24\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s a good question. We need to make sure that, when assessments are made, they are accurate and the needs of the young people are being met.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EOne of the benefits of iwi-led and community-led involvement is we\u2019re now starting to hear that they wish to\u2014just because there is a case reported and it is deemed to have \u201Cno further action required\u201D, those iwi and those communities are saying, \u201CThat is still a wh\u0101nau within our community that we want to have on our radar and that we would like to do further work with them.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI do take the member\u2019s point: that we need to make sure that, in those cases, they are assessed properly, but it\u2019s also positive, looking towards the future, that iwi are now saying that even if there is deemed to be \u201Cno further action required\u201D, they still want to be able to work with those wh\u0101nau just follow up and to have ongoing involvement to make sure that they are getting the support that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00224e6d5523face4cf9afaefadbd93408b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e6d5523face4cf9afaefadbd93408b4\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just further to that, in the same report it showed that 32 percent of tamariki were placed with caregivers for full assessments of the caregiver and their household, or a provisional approval was completed\u201432 percent, Minister. Is that good enough, that only 32 percent of tamariki were placed with caregivers before a full assessment was made, and does this include when they\u2019re going back to wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, or iwi whether these assessments were made, or are those different assessments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00229ba4c94090ee47539aeb0ba1558c7351\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ba4c94090ee47539aeb0ba1558c7351\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m going to repeat the question that I asked, which is the second part of my first question. It\u2019s noted that there\u2019s been a considerable increase for Oranga Tamariki to maintain its purchasing power of its partner-provided services, some $15.6 million increase. It\u2019s also noted that there\u2019s an almost $25.5 million increase for the initiative Transforming the Care System. However, that is offset, Minister, by a reduction in funding of $8 million for supporting social service providers. Could the Minister clarify who those social services who are going to be at a loss of the $8 million funding are, and who are those being targeted for the purchasing power of its partner-provided services with that additional $15 million increase? Who\u2019s benefiting in the community, and who\u2019s not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c19419e3256e4ba49d42d170695b4e97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c19419e3256e4ba49d42d170695b4e97\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E OK. In the interests of time, sorry, I\u2019d just like to address Karen Chhour\u2019s questions first; there are only six minutes and I just wanted a few more questions to come out. So in terms of the \u201Cno further action\u201D and the numbers that you said, action was still taken as part of the social work plan in most cases, and these were individually followed up. In terms of the safety checks, initial checks such as police checks and home checks are routinely completed prior to the full assessment. In terms of Harete Hipango\u2019s response to her question\u2014so Oranga Tamariki, in 2022, undertook a review of provider funding to ensure funding is aligned with its strategic direction. Oranga Tamariki made initial proposals to change funding contracts with 187 provider organisations nationally. After feedback from communities and from the providers, changes were made to the funding of 132 providers, revolving around 35\u00A0million providers in the 2022-23 year. Decisions were made on a case-by-case basis considering tamariki and wh\u0101nau needs, and followed feedback and proposals from providers and the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba4bee42458846f087a9e7b640921dff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba4bee42458846f087a9e7b640921dff\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In the case of short time left, I\u2019ll try and get a couple of questions in at the same time. The reason I\u2019m asking these questions is because we\u2019re constantly hearing that the number of children in care has gone down, and I\u2019m concerned that actually they\u2019re not safe, and that we\u2019re not actually investigating things properly. So in the same report it said the trend of number of reports of concern being assessed within 20 working days, as required by Oranga Tamariki policy, in 2019, 41 percent were done within the 20 working days, and it\u2019s just kept dropping year after year. So now in 2021 to 2022, it\u2019s only at 22 percent, Minister\u201422\u00A0percent meet that time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EAlso looking at reviewing support plans, there\u2019s been a decrease in the number of caregiver support plans being reviewed following allegations of abuse or neglect relating to a child or young person who\u2019s being looked after by a caregiver. Last year, the review took place and it was 62 percent of cases, and this year it\u2019s only 43 percent of cases. Are we actually making sure that our young people are safe? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u00222a20b63486aa41a48f542c0e458815e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a20b63486aa41a48f542c0e458815e8\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s good to hear from the Minister that there\u2019s a reduction of 25 percent of children in care, and that 78\u00A0percent of those children in care are placed with wh\u0101nau and in their community. Also good to hear there were $55 million invested in iwi M\u0101ori partnerships. So my question, in terms of going forward, is: how is Oranga Tamariki planning to further partner with iwi and M\u0101ori organisations to deliver services to tamariki, rangatahi, and their wh\u0101nau through to 2023-2024 appropriations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00223c103842a0004aaab91e624e57153c1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c103842a0004aaab91e624e57153c1f\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and I would like to thank the member for the questions. In terms of working with communities, it is the big drive. We know that communities have been asking for the ability to care for the needs of their young people. They have the solutions within themselves, and we have nine prototypes already up and running, and there are another 10 partnerships with communities around the country. I feel it\u2019s really important that we continue to expand the numbers of partnerships and the prototypes that are recurring around the country, because there are skills that they have. I spoke a bit about what\u2019s happening in Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, and of course up in Kaitaia we have TE ATAT\u016A, it is called\u2014it\u2019s not to be confused with Te Atat\u016B in West Auckland, but that\u2019s the name of the programme where basically iwi are making the call in a number of areas, and we\u2019re starting to see really good results on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022790f5666de074a009d0925fc15b91adc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022790f5666de074a009d0925fc15b91adc\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We\u2019ve heard recently that you were very happy\u2014sorry, I\u2019ve lost my page\u2014with the housing and working with other organisations. But there\u2019s a concern that, actually, there are still children staying in motels and the average stay is about four nights. But we also have one poor rangitahi that stayed for two years in a motel, in emergency care, waiting for a place to be. So do we know what number, right now, of children in the care of Oranga Tamariki are staying in emergency housing right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002279af2cddbcea4ddda1af1ee55f29c9c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279af2cddbcea4ddda1af1ee55f29c9c1\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Look, first of all, just to dispel a myth that these kids are left to their own devices in a motel. Now, I don\u2019t think that there\u2019s many\u2014I\u2019m sorry, I\u2019ll have to come back to the member with the exact numbers\u2014but when they are, on very rare occasions, in emergency housing, they do have full-time caregivers, social workers, or community providers with them, making sure that their needs are being met. Sometimes, sadly, that sort of situation is the safest place for them to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022176b4953011f4d3b92460e26ce4e49f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022176b4953011f4d3b92460e26ce4e49f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, the time has come for the Minister to leave the chair. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022230654f26b9b4a649e5f4d85a08da520\u0022\u003EOceans and Fisheries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022059bdb9a8246486e9a8c96d2f78f080c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022059bdb9a8246486e9a8c96d2f78f080c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We now have the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries available from 4.20 to 4.40.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022babe7b9ba6894077a8863999d467c841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022babe7b9ba6894077a8863999d467c841\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Deputy Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It is a pleasure to rise and take a call as we look at the Estimates for fisheries. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of Steph Lewis, who is the usual chair of the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EFisheries, as always, is of great interest to all New Zealanders, and it\u2019s a significant part of our Government activities. And, of course, the appropriations sought for fisheries was a total of $102.5\u00A0million, which is a drop, of course, of 41.4 percent from the estimated actual expenditure of $175 million in 2022-23. We had some interesting discussions. We heard from the Minister about some of the challenges that we have around the sustainability of commercial fishing. We heard about significant strategic endeavours, such as the Draft Fisheries Industry Transformation Plan, and the innovations and the technology that is going to be able to help us to build a more sustainable commercial fishing fleet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EWe had asked about whether the Budget proposed any funding that would help to minimise bycatch\u2014a critical part of the sustainability of our commercial fishery\u2014and the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) told us at that point that $5 million had actually been tagged in the Budget for the industry transformation plan and this could be used to support technologies such as those that would help to reduce the bycatch. We heard about the way that MPI have been encouraging the seafood sector to take more advantage of the Sustainable Food and Fibre Futures programme\u2014the \u201CSFFF\u201D\u2014which can help them with overcoming those capital hurdles that they have about making that investment in order to make sure that they are sustainable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EWe also heard about the significant piece of work that is the roll-out of cameras on boats. We heard\u2014because every boat is different\u2014about the technicalities of rolling out this technology so that it would be effective and actually support our fishers to be transparent and accountable and show that they have a really great sustainable fishery. And that\u2019s really important as we go to the world and we remind the world that we\u2019ve got some really, really great primary industry stories and produce. We heard about the complexities and that there were some bugs in the system, but it was great to see the pilot really teaching everybody the best way to deliver this, and it\u2019s great to see that those roll-outs are actually happening on boats now, and a really great way to hear about the support for the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EWe heard about the potential for the growth of aquaculture\u2014again, as we are looking for a sustainable catch in the future, hearing about what the industry is doing to show leadership and how MPI are doing their best to support that. They referred to the aquaculture strategy implementation plan, and we heard about projects such as the open-ocean salmon farm in Cook Strait\u2014again Sustainable Food and Fibre Futures. There were obviously some really good examples of the challenges that are facing fisheries and how the sector and Government have been working to get through those wicked problems. It is going to be very good to hear more from the Minister as we interrogate the Estimates for this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002281ee6de8dd8c413b8635bf29e1003c89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281ee6de8dd8c413b8635bf29e1003c89\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member Angela Roberts for that overview of our time in select committee. I thought it would just be useful if I touched on a couple of things that have happened since the hearing at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOne of those is, of course, that cameras on boats went live on Tuesday, 1 August. This is a really good news story in terms of the information that we can gather from those cameras will very much help with our understanding of what\u2019s going on out there in the oceans. Of course, the first cameras that have gone live have been prioritised to areas where there are marine mammals. We are expecting another 70 to go live by the end of the year, and, overall, 300 boats will have those cameras operational. I was very fortunate to visit one of these boats the other day and to see the cameras in action\u2014they\u2019re in action on the deck\u2014and you can see what\u2019s going on when you\u2019re inside the boat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also had a lot of feedback on the draft Fisheries Industry Transformation Plan. That final one will be released very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EToday, some of you may have heard that we have introduced the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. That\u2019s really trying to deal with some of the activity that goes on, in particular on the high seas, that\u2019s illegal. I\u2019ve been continuing to work with the Minister of Conservation on both SEMP\u2014the South-East Marine Protection Forum\u2014and the Hauraki Gulf as well. I\u2019ll leave it there, and I look forward to your questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022572dcbb80c1f4fa680a96fcf01bca682\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022572dcbb80c1f4fa680a96fcf01bca682\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister, for the opportunity to discuss the very issues that are salient to the fisheries industry. I\u2019m cognisant of the short time afforded to me so I\u2019ll be succinct in my questions if I can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EFrom 2019 to 2025 was the length of the period assigned for the cameras on boats roll-out. You\u2019ve said that, to use your words, some went live. What\u2019s the number that went live? I am interested in the disparities between the coastal commercial fishery\u2019s reality and fleet and the deep-water fleet, and where these cameras have been rolled out. Is it the coastal commercial sector or is it afforded to the deep-sea fleet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of notable points that I think we need to canvass. What current technology are you aware of, as the Minister, beyond cork lines, lead lines, and knotless technology that\u2019s in the industry? As you can appreciate, the coastal commercial fleet is concerned about bycatch and how this technology is going to be rolled out over the next four years given that the fisheries amendment bill was recently passed. So how will this data sharing be utilised in terms of helping with the roll out of further technology and in what industry? Is it the coastal commercial or deep-sea fleet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002219ab1fe5978649b8baf8065066a1db3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219ab1fe5978649b8baf8065066a1db3f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E In terms of the cameras that have gone live as of Tuesday, there are 23 boats, 23 vessels. There are numerous cameras on those different boats and it is the inshore fleet. The rationale for this is, of course, that those boats are smaller than what we\u2019ve got in the deep water and it\u2019s often difficult to get observers on those boats. The area that\u2019s been prioritised is the west of the North Island because of the M\u0101ui dolphin habitat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of other technology, the data sharing will help with all of the different management that goes on in the fisheries in terms of setting the catch limits and the like, and working out what fish are being discarded or not being discarded. It will help with the overall management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of other technology, I\u2019m not sure if the member was just referring to the camera technology, which, of course, is using AI as well, but there are things in development and things that are being used at the moment, like hook pods. I have one in my office if the member\u2019s interested in seeing one. These are contraptions that go over the sharp end of the hook and they are released when the hooks are at a depth where a seabird can longer dive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, there are other issues like the actual nets\u2014that\u2019s not quite the right word. There is the precision seafood harvesting as well, so those are a still a trawl but it\u2019s a much longer net and it allows smaller fish to get out. So there\u2019s lots happening in the technology but there is more to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00221eb6ffef362e4cdcb8bd30792bdd5533\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eb6ffef362e4cdcb8bd30792bdd5533\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Seeing as we\u2019ve started on the issue of onboard cameras, I want to continue that theme just a little bit. The Minister made much in her introductory comments about the installation and going live of just 23 boats so far, and that she hoped that there would be more before the end of the year. But at select committee, we were told that in September 2020, the Government announced that it would fund the roll-out of on-board cameras to about 345 inshore fishing vessels by 2024. But in the Minister\u2019s press release of just a few days ago, she now talks about there being 300\u2014just 300; so the number has dropped significantly\u2014by 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI\u2019m keen to know from the Minister what have been the hurdles that have been in the way that have slowed this process down for nearly six years. The decision to install onboard cameras was actually made by the previous National Government more than six years ago, and yet this Government has been incredibly slow to get this process going, with only 23 boats with live cameras effective from today. So if the Minister can give some detail as to why it has taken so long, what have been the problems, and what have been the handbrakes. I\u2019m particularly interested to know what the political handbrakes were that occurred that have delayed the implementation of this policy for so long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220ae1c3c6e59148259eae23ba0beaece1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ae1c3c6e59148259eae23ba0beaece1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. So the member at first referred to the 345 and asked why I\u2019m mentioning 300. The answer is it was an estimate at that time, and the fleet has declined over that time. As I said before, we\u2019re interested in these smaller inshore vessels for the cameras.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThese cameras\u2014of course, it\u2019s been the Labour Government that\u2019s put the money into the Budget, and it\u2019s a $68 million programme for this roll-out, and has used Spark as the main technology provider in the process, and has gone from the proof of concept some years ago, that didn\u2019t use AI, to now these cameras that have gone live\u2014the 23 that do use AI. So that makes many different savings back in Wellington at head office, and provides more useful data as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAs the member will appreciate, new technology, particularly technology that has to float on a boat in the ocean, is difficult. It has happened, it is working, this is a very good news story. There\u2019ll be 70 more by the end of the year and 300 in total.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002288a486542ebf4c7f96e90eb09cbb84cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288a486542ebf4c7f96e90eb09cbb84cd\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and can I congratulate the Minister for the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill introduced today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to turn to the issue of bycatch, because we\u2019ve got leatherback turtles which are critically endangered. They\u2019re on the International Union for Conservation of Nature\u2019s Red List. There are as few as a thousand nesting females left. They\u2019re expected to go extinct in 20 to 30 years unless the natural survival rate increases. Yet there are no measures for mitigation to prevent the deaths of leatherback turtles\u2014prevent them from being hooked on lines. They\u2019re particularly vulnerable on the north-east coast of the North Island, and 58 turtles were observed to have been caught. When they\u2019re caught, the mortality rates are quite high. So there is nothing that requires the fishery to be closed. New Zealand has killed three times the number of turtles that in Hawaii would require the fishery to be closed. In the Solomon Islands, you\u2019ve got rangers moving turtle eggs to try and ensure the survival of the species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EDoes the $5 million that the Minister\u2019s referred to provide for any measures to avoid turtle bycatch? Does it provide for any policy work to protect leatherback turtles and any mitigation measures that will be compulsory on boats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00221014b43106c142c5a5299e7f09477f87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221014b43106c142c5a5299e7f09477f87\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Well, in terms of the leatherback turtles, I do want to acknowledge the impacts of climate change and that we will see other issues like this as time progresses. They are coming south as water temperatures have changed. We have changed some regulations around circle hooks to try and diminish the impacts on those leatherback turtles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe member mentioned the $5 million that I think the member said the Minister had mentioned. I don\u2019t think I have mentioned $5 million, but Angela Roberts did and I think that particular $5 million was in relation to implementing the fisheries industry transformation plan. And so, probably not so much of a specific bycatch issue, but I acknowledge that there\u2019s obviously a lot of work to continue to do on bycatch matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00220944428160f3478a80b93accdc8b96e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220944428160f3478a80b93accdc8b96e1\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E The fundamental purpose of Fisheries New Zealand is, of course, to manage fisheries resources for the benefit of all New Zealanders and for us as a society, and that, by definition, involves them managing stocks and monitoring and checking on sustainability levels. A quota management system provides for the management of some 642 different stocks. So my question to the Minister is that in terms of the October sustainability round this year, just seven inshore stocks, two deep-water stocks, one change of fishing year, and three deemed value adjustments have been completed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI\u2019m keen to know from the Minister: is she concerned at the low number of stocks for which amended sustainability measures are proposed and have been measured, and what is her plan to ensure that actually a more robust and in-depth analysis is conducted by Fisheries New Zealand to actually monitor, manage, and maintain the 642-odd stocks with just such a small number being currently monitored by Fisheries New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00229ab017ea37d646af83b03b1c90ecca0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ab017ea37d646af83b03b1c90ecca0a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Hon Scott Simpson for that question. Just going back to the earlier question and my answer on the cameras on boats and the 300 and 345 number, I mention, again, the 300 bid, and, of course, that\u2019s up to 300 as well, because we don\u2019t know exactly how many vessels will be in the fleet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOn to his question about the quota management system and the sustainability rounds and the number of stocks. Of course, the Ministry of Fisheries has a good science team and contracts out to other scientists, and it has about $22 million in its budget for science per annum. Those officials and scientists work out which of the stocks to do a sustainability round on and based on what they\u2019re seeing in the fishery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002257955f1bd2d14a5d9afe3475188c722c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257955f1bd2d14a5d9afe3475188c722c\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, to go back to bycatch and the reality there, and all the concerns that we all have with bycatch, talking about set nets versus long lines in a coastal, commercial sense\u2014what technologies are afforded to the sector currently? And what technologies does the Minister envisage on the back of the full roll-out of the cameras\u2014and we don\u2019t know when that will be; the proof of concept to 2025, so it\u2019s a six-year elapsed period of time. What technology is she aware of that will alleviate that reality, because if you\u2019re a mid-water fisherman\u2014i.e., thinking of yellow-eyed mullet, but your target species is kahawai\u2014how do they alleviate the bycatch in that reality, when they\u2019re both in the same pressure zone in the ocean, and 50 more fish in that scenario would see that fisherman caught into a prosecutorial reality, if it\u2019s bycatch? So what technology exists today in the set-net arena, not the long-line arena, that will afford a fisherman in that space alleviation of bycatch? What technology exists today that you\u2019re aware of?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002280a76da50ca04625859fd208a48f42ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280a76da50ca04625859fd208a48f42ae\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Can I return to the issue of fish stocks. There\u2019s been a recent realisation by scientists that the orange roughy stock assessment for parts of the Chatham Rise is not reliable. It doesn\u2019t show the actual health of the stocks. We\u2019re talking about a fish; it\u2019s like eating your grandmother, eating orange roughy\u2014they can live to be 200 years old. Because of that, they\u2019ve got quite a slow reproductive rate, and they\u2019re also really difficult to manage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research did an acoustic survey on the Chatham Rise and it said that the models that we have been using to predict the abundance of orange roughy in a large area east of the South Island were flawed and overly optimistic. Given that orange roughy are one of our most important deep-water species and they\u2019re also a species which scientists have said we know most about, if we can\u2019t get the modelling right for a species like orange roughy, then what is going to be done in terms of this year\u2019s spending programme to actually address those models to make sure that there\u2019s a bigger precautionary buffer in stock assessments and to relook at the whole system of stock assessments\u2014because, of course, orange roughy have got certification under the Marine Stewardship Council. That will potentially be revoked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe other issue is that we are spending less now on marine fisheries research than we were some years ago. Why hasn\u2019t there been a significant increase in the funding for fisheries research, and what are the obstacles to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8c72e8e7a1941a8b83a5ac62e3a22b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8c72e8e7a1941a8b83a5ac62e3a22b3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I do not thank the member the Hon Eugenie Sage for that image of eating your grandmother, but I do take her point about the seriousness of the orange roughy stock, and that of course they can live to such an incredible old age. As the member will know, the orange roughy is part of the sustainability round this time. Consultation on that has now closed. In terms of addressing the models and the further money for the science\u2014there is a limited amount of funding there, and that hasn\u2019t changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing back to Mark Cameron\u2019s question about technology for set-netting in relation to the legislation that was passed last year, the main point with that is that the bycatch has to be reported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002226022c30a6914a0d8bf516acf5ab66a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226022c30a6914a0d8bf516acf5ab66a8\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The plan that has been undertaken by Fisheries New Zealand, the industry transformation plan that is under consideration and input, sets out as their priorities for this transformation plan as being \u201Cstrengthening environmental performance, improving profitability\u201D, and \u201Csupporting people and communities\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, I put it to the Minister that those are essentially \u201Cmotherhood and apple pie\u201D statements. They are statements that probably are very general, they\u2019re no-brainers, they\u2019re philosophically adopted, I think, probably to achieve a desired outcome. But I\u2019m advised that when Fisheries New Zealand sent out requests for people or invitations for permit holders and quota owners to participate in the consultation process, that their email\u2014which was sent out to permit holder and quota owners\u2014shows that only 51\u00A0percent of those were sent emails, and 37 percent of mandated iwi organisations, and only 25 percent of industry and Government organisations even opened the email, let alone went to participate proactively in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister, how does she think that the industry transformation plan will be best interpreted by those if people who are intimately involved in the sector don\u2019t even get an opportunity, for one reason or another, to even open the email that provides them with an opportunity to participate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00225ef2814272c343309e32e8170ed6299b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ef2814272c343309e32e8170ed6299b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E All right. While I can\u2019t speak to people\u2019s email-opening habits. I can inform the member that, of course, the industry transformation plan (ITP) had a leadership group, and that was made up of a lot of industry people: Fisheries New Zealand of course, union groups, and an environmental group as well. So there was a very strong industry input into that plan, and that\u2019s really important because it is an industry transformation plan, so of course you need the industry on board with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve been very pleased with the engagement with the industry on that plan. Of course, there are some more general ambitions of that plan, but also a lot of specific recommendations and these, I can say, were consulted on. Of course, there will be some amendment in the final ITP, which will be released very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cee12b759b8145fc878775a817455495\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cee12b759b8145fc878775a817455495\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Returning to the issue of bycatch and seabirds\u2014which I know the Minister is concerned about and was talked about briefly at the Primary Production Committee\u2014the national plan of action on seabirds requires an annual report on progress. A key performance indicator in that national plan of action is around the objective of the estimated number of fishing-related mortalities is decreasing towards zero. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo the latest data that we\u2019ve got, and it was in the 2020-21 report, is actually going back to 201617. Given the amount of work that was done last term on the national plan of action on seabirds, is it acceptable for accountability and for tracking purposes that we\u2019re relying on 2016-17 data? Will that be addressed this year? Is there more funding available to get more timely information about how we are tracking against that key objective of seabird bycatch reducing towards zero?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI know there\u2019s been consultation on bycatch and mitigation measures and whether they are compulsory for surface longlines. But has any funding being allocated for projects to reduce the death and bycatch of seabirds from bottom longline vessels, which kill an estimated 2,840 birds annually, and from trawlers, which catch and kill an estimated 8,840 seabirds each year? So we\u2019re killing about 13,000 birds each year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo what work is being done? What work is being funded? Will that translate for bottom longlines and trawling into improved mitigation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8c59053cb8a4c8bba0313d7ff483177\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8c59053cb8a4c8bba0313d7ff483177\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that question about the national plan of action on seabirds. As the member well knows\u2014because she was involved in making it, and I thank her for that work as a previous Minister of Conservation and a strong advocate for seabirds\u2014it has a five-year lifetime and there are different work streams in it. So, as the member noted, there is the work going on to the longline methods at the moment to reduce bycatch. In terms of her question about bottom-line longlines, there has been review of that previously within the life, I\u2019m told, of this national plan of action on seabirds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWith regards to questions around mortality rates, that is an issue that has been brought to my attention by the member, and it is something that may come up in the review of the national plan of action on seabirds in the future, but it\u2019s not in the work programme at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002222a0ae58b02a4cf8884b80a0401c67c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222a0ae58b02a4cf8884b80a0401c67c1\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m keen to quiz the Minister a little bit about the commitment that New Zealand has made at the 2022 United Nations Biodiversity Conference in Canada, towards the end of last year, relating to the goal of protecting 30\u00A0percent of New Zealand\u2019s marine environment by the year 2030, commonly referred to as \u201C30 by 30\u201D. I\u2019m interested, initially, to know from the Minister what is her definition of \u201Cprotected\u201D in terms of the marine space, how does she define that, and what does, in her view, protection look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e03ec6b565254a7f967ccf5aebf90473\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e03ec6b565254a7f967ccf5aebf90473\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E While we\u2019re on the marine protection theme, does the Minister expect that there will be any progress on the south-east marine protected areas before the election or that there will be legislation in relation to the Hauraki Gulf and Revitalising the Gulf, on establishing the recommended marine protected areas there, plus The Noises?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222de5c84704a24f2e94a74812d02d58a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222de5c84704a24f2e94a74812d02d58a5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Noting that marine protection is a matter for the Minister of Conservation in the territorial sea, and for the Minister for the Environment in the exclusive economic zone, but absolutely still committed to that 30 percent by 2030. To the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s question about the south-east marine protected area and the Hauraki Gulf\u2014very hopeful that we will be able to make some announcements on both of these matters, but it\u2019s a lot of work that both myself and the Minister of Conservation are working on as hard as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2883cf89d474f5ea1ecbbaaad661021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2883cf89d474f5ea1ecbbaaad661021\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. At select committee, the Minister said\u2014this is in reference to the roll-out of cameras on boats\u2014that, while the pilot indicates that the new technology works in cameras, the company installing it has encountered \u201Ca few bugs in the system\u201D. She went on to say that she thought the resolution of these bugs would be a small number of months away. Well, the select committee met, I think, in early July, and I\u2019m wondering: have those bugs now been ironed out; and, if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2d84ff327ba4b5daee6929c65d1aba5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2d84ff327ba4b5daee6929c65d1aba5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, the bugs were certainly ironed out, which is why we had the go-live of the 23 boats on Tuesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb0ec71643e74f358ff6a84d59a2f771\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb0ec71643e74f358ff6a84d59a2f771\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E How were they ironed out? Maybe the Minister could elucidate as to exactly what the issues were. We\u2019ve been concerned about privacy issues, about the ability to capture data, about what would be filmed and what wouldn\u2019t be filmed, and who would have ownership, and what levels of confidentiality there would be around that information and data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227d38190a46714e19be72cab7d3bc42bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d38190a46714e19be72cab7d3bc42bf\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E The list of things that the member just raised are what I would consider to be more policy issues, rather than bugs, and what I was referring to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b50326cf36f44f239adcd9212543b919\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the definition of \u201Cbug\u201D then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223736e5dae86442bba743dc4854c3e51a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the definition of \u201Cbug\u201D? Noting that I am not in any way a Minister of technology here, the definition of a bug is something in the computer system that needs to be fixed by companies such as Spark, which they have largely done. There may still be a few things that, of course, do need to be ironed out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of the bigger issues in terms of privacy and what gets viewed and the ownership of that, that\u2019s all been in the policy documents and seems to be largely agreed with industry as well. Of course, those cameras are only turned on when there are fish on board and the people are working there, and the information gets transferred digitally to Fisheries New Zealand and they look at the data they need to look at and nothing else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022339ef82e8326409bba19a053fc66ee32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022339ef82e8326409bba19a053fc66ee32\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for the Minister to debug\u2014I should say, vacate the chair. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e21691974a654941b4bc0138d4d1af04\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d94da73010614308b84a9fff38f66de2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d94da73010614308b84a9fff38f66de2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now have the Minister for Social Development and Employment. The Minister is available from 4.51 p.m. to 5.51 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00228917d202ac3945b6b219f66bb491fc4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228917d202ac3945b6b219f66bb491fc4e\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. As the chair of the Social Services Committee, pleasure to lead off the debate for Vote Social Development for 2023-24. This is a huge report, 19-pager: I\u2019m going to whistle-stop through it, so I just want to acknowledge all those who were involved in the questioning and delivering of answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EVote Social Development is the largest Vote in Budget 2023, at $42.9 billion. Vote Social Development funds the provision of income support and the administration of associated systems and processes. Benefits or related expense accounts account for $35.9\u00A0billion, or 83 percent of the total Vote funding. These appropriations are driven by demand and include superannuation, accommodation, hardship, and disability allowances and the winter energy payment. Seven Ministers have responsibility for the appropriations in the Vote: the Minister for Social Development and Employment, who is in the chair today\u2014thank you, Madam\u2014and the Ministers for Disability Issues, Revenue, Veterans, Youth, and Seniors. We heard from the Hon Carmel Sepuloni as well as the Ministers of Disability, Youth, and Seniors. Of note is the $24.45 billion allocated under supporting tangata whaikaha M\u0101ori and disabled people within the Vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022590fc8f2de0e42ffab4dd6d76a0403c5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, excuse me, Ms Warren-Clark. Apparently your microphone is not working. Would you mind moving along one, and we\u2019ll allocate the time accordingly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe786f73f6cc4c08bf33351745a1c8df\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Would you like me to start again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220273dcafabd3401180dcabdeccb39bbc\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e58d0e2b0744f829bd7bb6e13cfdfaf\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No! Ha, ha\u2014how rude! Is that better? Oh yes, that\u2019s better. All righty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267bbe3498a024c6fbda8ccad3d2d055c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The House has missed a lot, I\u2019m sure, but carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c1777556cb2465a990337bef9306dfa\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: Start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fdb9c21a5b5416fbf10ae6650686967\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I think I should start again. The biggest spend\u2014OK. I want to thank the Ministers for attending these sessions and thank all the CEOs etc. Te Pae Tawhiti is a business transformation for the Ministry of Social Development (MSD). The Minister described the business transformation programme, Te Pae Tawhiti, as possibly the most ambitious of its kind in the public service. It is a nine-year programme; the goal is to transform MSD\u2019s systems and services to ensure that clients are treated with dignity and respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe spoke about the Total Incomes annual report. The report found that total incomes after housing costs for people receiving a main benefit are 48 percent higher than at the end of 2017. The Minister noted that those on the lowest incomes have fallen behind over the last three decades, and said that there had been no honest attempt to try and catch that up. The Minister pointed out that the Government has increased the minimum wage each year since 2017 and extended the access criteria for special needs grants and recoverable assistance payments to low income workers as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EShe noted that the Budget 2023 proposed funding of $18.67 million for childcare assistance was a 9 percent increase. The Minister also told us that the income threshold for eligibility to receive the childcare and Out of School and Recreation payments had increased, as it not had changed since 2010. They helped to cover the cost of childcare and after school care or holiday programs. She said that the new threshold reflects where it would have been had it continued to lift from 2010. Vote Social Development seeks $266 million dollars for special needs grants, and $372 million for the Recoverable Assistance appropriation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Minister told us that fees increases were to recognise the additional pressures that low income households have faced during COVID-19. The Minister told us that the maximum accommodation supplement was also increased in 2018 and she said that there were concerns that this would affect the rental market and the cost of housing, but this had not been the case. We referred to a number of statistics related to beneficiary numbers and projections: the Minister noted that the percentage of people who have exited the benefit and have returned within one year was 48 percent. The Minister also noticed that despite challenges from COVID-19, the cost of living and weather events, New Zealand\u2019s labour market is faring well and unemployment rate is at a near-record low. My time is suddenly gone, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc0a9d9506d4630bf95648eddd23b64\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll give you another minute for the time that we had to cut you off, so carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253289f0fdb86456a988129b52829b168\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. The Minister noted that three years after the 2008 global financial crisis, 12.3 percent of the working age population was receiving a benefit, in comparison to 11.1 percent today. We also heard a total of 6,000-plus beneficiary sanctions were issued during the March 2023 quarter. The Minister said that benefit sanctions are issued as a last resort, and that MSD and its clients have obligations to one another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EIn 2021-22, 25,218 people moved from the benefit into employment. We asked the Minister what MSD\u2019s most effective interventions are, and what its top priorities in terms of supporting people into work were. The Minister noted Mana in Mahi, employment placement or assistance initiatives, the Training Incentive Allowances, youth services, and job search assistance. There is more to say, but I do recommend that the appropriations for the year ending 30 June for the Vote Social Development be accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002250a594f57f044aefbf6eb9975673384f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250a594f57f044aefbf6eb9975673384f\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Like in many other countries, economic conditions are beginning to change, with inflation and predictions of a rise in unemployment between now and 2025. But the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) is here for our communities, helping New Zealanders to be safe, strong, and independent, and carrying out the mahi needed to ensure our welfare system treats New Zealanders with dignity and respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve made record investments in main benefits, increased Working for Families, and improved access to childcare assistance. As a result of these actions, there has been a drop in children in food insecure households from 24.1 percent in 2012-13 to 12.5 percent in 2021-22, an increase in afterhousing incomes for those on benefits by on average 43\u00A0percent in real terms since 2018, and we have 77,000 fewer children in poverty using the after-housing costs measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAs a result of our changes, approximately 356,000 individuals, families, and wh\u0101nau will be on average $118 per week better off, compared to 2017. This includes 109,000 families with children better off by an average of $190 per week, when compared to 2017. This aligns with reductions we are seeing in child poverty and food insecurity as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of the best ways we can help New Zealanders longer term is through employment, which is why Budget 2023 boosted investment across some of MSD\u2019s most successful employment and training programmes. The Training Incentive Allowance has been permanently reinstated for sole parents, disabled people, and those with health conditions to undertake higher-level training or study. The Mayors Taskforce for Jobs and Auckland Council\u2019s Ng\u0101 Puna P\u016Bkenga partnership have received another two years of funding. We\u2019ve also invested in the expansion of several hugely successful programmes, including Mana in Mahi and He Poutama Rangatahi, and driver licence training\u2014yes, travel is one of the most common barriers to getting a job. Oranga Mahi has been funded for another two years, supporting New Zealanders with disabilities and other health conditions into work. And the early response, redeployment support, and rapid return-to-work programmes will continue helping those who have lost their jobs get back into work quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ETogether with core MSD employment services, these programmes have helped more than 100,000 people into work over the last year alone. That\u2019s lives turned around, careers on the move, and brighter futures for themselves and their wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EBut we also recognise that the job market landscape changes. The jobs of tomorrow won\u2019t always be the jobs of today. That\u2019s why $2 million has been invested to increase the capacity of the Direct Career Guidance Service\u2014a quick phone call and you could be on your way to a new vocation or further study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to say that I am incredibly proud of MSD and the role they played in the recovery and building back from the recent severe events in the upper North Island. MSD\u2019s support for affected communities will continue into the coming months, working with central and local agencies to put the social sector recovery plan into action and deliver targeted support for wh\u0101nau. Whether young, old, a sole parent, or living with a disability, every New Zealander should be given the opportunity to live their best lives. I just want to do a shout-out, in particular, to the MSD staff that are in the weather-impacted areas. Not only have they served their communities well but they\u2019ve done that despite the fact that many of them were impacted by the weather events themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve made a number of changes to support Kiwis facing hardship. Benefit rates have been increased to align with the Consumers Price Index. MSD recently reported that for those on a main benefit, total incomes after housing costs are 48 percent higher than at the end of 2017 after adjusting for inflation. We also continued the winter energy payment, increased income thresholds for the childcare subsidy and out of school care and recreation subsidy, and enabled the passing on of child support payments to sole parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe reality is most New Zealanders will rely on MSD services at some point in their lives, be it for employment, income support, or superannuation. Often this is much more than just a quick phone call or a flying visit to the Work and Income office; it\u2019s about providing wraparound support, working with clients to understand their circumstances, and helping them overcome what is stopping them from living their best lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMSD operates in just about every corner of the motu\u2014130 offices across New Zealand towns, cities, and communities. That is why we\u2019ve invested heavily in MSD\u2019s people and systems to keep these front-line services as fast, efficient, and as accessible as possible. That means matching supply with demand, ensuring there are enough front-line staff in locations where they\u2019re needed. It means ensuring our IT systems, phones, and other technologies can take the pressure if there\u2019s an emergency\u2014quakes, tsunamis, and, yes, of course, floods and cyclones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOf course, MSD is also thinking about the future, which is why Cabinet has given the go-ahead to Te Pae Tawhiti, multimillion-dollar transformation programme to make it easier for people to get the help they need from MSD. With about 60,000 users a day logging on to MSD\u2019s online service, MyMSD, we know New Zealanders want to engage with MSD online, yet some of the systems MSD uses are 30 years old\u2014that\u2019s pre-internet\u2014and we cannot risk them falling over. It is a massive undertaking and possibly the most ambitious of its kind in the Public Service, and it may take many years, but it will completely transform everything from MSD\u2019s backroom operations to how services are delivered, providing a more consistent and seamless experience for all our clients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EEarly changes include a new technology platform giving 130,000 students an easy-to-use online experience, a digital employment platform where 100,000 job seekers can connect with employers, and simpler, more efficient commissioning and reporting processes for MSD\u2019s 2,000 partners, and that\u2019s just the beginning; there\u2019s way more to come. The new technology and processes will create space for the moments that matter, really understanding client situations and needs, and helping them into employment and independence. It\u2019s innovative, transformative, and will make MSD\u2019s services more accessible and more effective for Kiwis from all walks of lives. Thank you. I will now take your questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7a27779eb8541859ae8fc29d08a6a14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7a27779eb8541859ae8fc29d08a6a14\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. My question is a simple one to the Minister, which reflects what surely is one of the primary goals of the Ministry of Social Development, and it is: why has the number of people receiving a main benefit increased so significantly since 2017, with 67,000 more New Zealanders receiving a jobseeker benefit today compared to when the Labour Government came to office, and why is this the case in a time of record job vacancies with employers crying out for workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00226a005ad93aef423983bed9136569646f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a005ad93aef423983bed9136569646f\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m really relieved that we never got to the forecast numbers that Treasury had predicted when we were hit with the pandemic. They had anticipated that we could get as far as, I believe, 497,000 people on benefit. If we had not responded as quickly as we did at the beginning of the pandemic, and put the measures in place that we did, including the wage subsidy, thousands more New Zealanders would have lost jobs because of the pandemic. It was always anticipated that there would be an increase in beneficiaries because of the pandemic, and then everything that ensued from that, but we never reached those numbers. I think we got just over 390,000 at maximum, and then we have come back down since then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EYes, the labour workforce or the labour market is very strong at the moment, but what we are finding is that many that have come on benefit don\u2019t necessarily have the skills or experience to take up the jobs that are available in their regions. That is why, as a Government, we have been so focused on upskilling and training, and working with Ministry of Social Development clients to address the barriers to employment that exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of those barriers I mentioned earlier, and that is not having a driver\u2019s licence, or transport, to actually work. I think around 70 percent of employers require that you do have a driver\u2019s licence so that they can be assured that you\u2019re going to be able to get to work. But there are other skills and experiences that many who come on benefit are lacking, and therefore not able to take up the jobs that are available. I\u2019m really proud of some of the investments we\u2019ve made to support New Zealanders who are on benefit into the jobs that are available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of those areas is certainly the trades, and a big shout out for the Apprenticeship Boost Programme, which has now seen over 60,000 apprentices go through. That investment, made during COVID-19, and that continues under our Government, is so important for supporting people into employment, but so important for addressing workforce shortages that have existed for far too long. I think it was the responsible investment to make during the pandemic. I will note that when the Global Financial Crisis hit, instead of investing in supporting people to upskill and train in areas like construction, and more generally the trades, unfortunately at that point in time the Government decided to cut funding to apprenticeships, which is definitely what added to the workforce shortages we have seen across the building and construction sector. So our Government responded differently, and I think the investments that we made were the right ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be2b2560b23406587a034cd6effaf27\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I understood that this debate was an opportunity for the Minister to provide information in relation to questions about the Estimates. The Minister has made a very wide-ranging contribution\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb3759da4a54423589c223e60866055d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. First of all, the Speaker in the Chair is the sole judge of relevance, and I\u2019ll remind the member that the Estimates is a wide-ranging debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002204302ea5c4524c4f8f4578aa713cb0aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204302ea5c4524c4f8f4578aa713cb0aa\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So I wanted to pick up on something the Minister has talked plenty about, around the overhaul of the welfare systems time lines. There are some issues that have been determined to be short term\u2014so, in the next sort of 12 months. One of them was around the review of hardship assistance. I want to get a sense whether that review had started and, if not, when is it due to start and how she expects that work to be carried on in terms of who would like to be consulted or what the scope of that review would be. Because as you\u2019ll know, the civil defence payment is tied to hardship assistance, and every time that our families are experiencing severe weather events, they are having to apply for a 20-year-old payment. So it would be really useful to get a sense of when we expect it to be started/finalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI also want to get an understanding about whether Working for Families changes are still a priority for this Government. As we know, there was a failed Budget bid that didn\u2019t make it through and we think a Working for Families overhaul is a priority, and I just want to get an understanding of what work she intends to do this year to improve access to the full Working for Families package, particularly for people who are receiving main benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EEqually, I want to get a sense about whether any work had been started around the removal of the warrant to arrest sanction, and whether she foresees that to be happening in the next 12 months. I also know that there was plenty of consultation with advocacy groups around the purpose and principles of the Social Security Act. I know there were some kind of exchanges between officials and groups at the front lines and I want to get a sense of what we should be expecting in the near future around that, because the previous member was talking about, I guess, people entering employment and the number of people receiving benefits. There is that fundamental question about whether the purpose of the Act is to serve the needs of businesses, as members on my right would like to allude, or whether it is to enable people to live good lives. So I\u2019m really interested to get a sense of where that\u2019s at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen, finally, the Minister may have seen reports around a spike of sanctions in the regions of Wellington around the occurrence of work seminars and therefore that leading to a spike of sanctions. I guess I want to get a sense of the confidence the Minister has around the integrity of how information is captured in those work seminars, because we have seen reports of people attending those seminars and then them being noted as not attending and then being sanctioned. So I just want to get her levels of confidence around whether those seminars are guaranteeing that, and whether she intends for those seminars to guarantee people good work, and whether they\u2019re actually then contributing to people entering decent work. Also, whether she\u2019s got any measurements or any information that she collects to test how useful those work seminars are beyond them resulting in a spike of sanctions when they do happen, in great frequency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00221f60f938e5c343f9aede927b0d0fd91d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f60f938e5c343f9aede927b0d0fd91d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s quite a number of things covered in that one contribution by the Green Party member, but I appreciate that and I\u2019ll do my best to respond to all of the matters that he has raised. I\u2019m starting with the review of hardship support. So that work is under way, but we haven\u2019t stopped doing things, because we\u2019re looking at the whole system around hardship support. That member is very aware that we were able to move quickly to make some changes, including the lift for the dental grant from $300 to $1,000 per year, and changing the eligibility criteria around that to make it more accessible. We also were able to lift the income thresholds so that more low-income New Zealanders can have access to hardship grants through the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), which previously they couldn\u2019t. That was something that happened when we were really going through the throes of COVID, but we decided to make permanent. It really came off the back of the feedback that we were receiving from many of our social services out there who were saying that it wasn\u2019t just beneficiary families, it was low-income working families that were struggling during that time, and so we wanted to extend the hardship support to them as well. Is there more to do? Yes, there certainly is, but we need to look at the whole system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271d2285aa5ab4043943e9d332b92b636\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: When?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e92e2eed9e41efb226a740e9f042b7\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I would hope that there would be recommendations around changes within the next two years. The Working for Families review is ongoing and we continue to seek advice in respect of that. There was nothing in the Budget, as the member cited, but that doesn\u2019t mean that all of that work has been cast away or parked for ever. The intention is certainly to continue doing that work and then to make changes in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe next point I will speak to is just in respect of sanctions. When we came in, we made it very clear to MSD\u2014or I did as a Minister\u2014that it should be a last resort and they should be giving plenty of notification to people so that they have the ability to re-comply. So my understanding is that they are still following that system and it certainly is still used as a last resort. If the member has examples of where people are saying that they showed up to a work seminar and they were sanctioned anyway, then those are definitely examples I would want sent to MSD or myself so that we can follow up and make sure that someone hasn\u2019t been treated unfairly by the Ministry of Social Development. But I have no reason to believe that that is a wide-ranging or common practice that\u2019s occurring. There is always the potential that human error has occurred, but if there are examples of where that member thinks that has happened, then those examples or cases should be sent through to myself or the Ministry of Social Development to be able to resolve as quickly as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIn terms of a spike of sanctions, I would say that during the throes of COVID, again, there was certainly a reduction in sanctions because of the fact that we couldn\u2019t necessarily apply the expectations around work obligations to the extent that we can during any business\u2019s usual year or time. There were reasons why people would not be able to comply during that period, and so there was quite a reduction then, but still the numbers that we\u2019re seeing are significantly less than what was being experienced or what we were seeing pre us coming into Government and making the commitment to ensuring that we have a welfare system that upholds the dignity of New Zealanders that have to access that system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThen, finally, the other question was put to me around the purpose and principles of the Act and when we are going to do that. That is certainly something that we would like to get on to in the next year, as well. Some people thought that we should have started there with the overhaul, but one of the reasons why we didn\u2019t start with that at the beginning was because, unfortunately, given the nature of some of the policies in the legislation and throughout the welfare system, potentially any revised purpose and principles could have ended up being completely unaligned with the practice and what is happening in the welfare system. So we\u2019ve been doing what we can to overhaul the whole system whilst in the back of our minds knowing we want to get to the point where we can change the purpose and principles in a way where everything aligns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022958cc4bccee6468c893c9c6b2e106d87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022958cc4bccee6468c893c9c6b2e106d87\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, we had many conversations, and I guess we\u2019d agree, that people being on benefit for longer\u2014it\u2019s a lot harder to get back into work and that it\u2019s best to try and do whatever possible to get people back into work as quickly as we can, and long-term dependency can become a bit of a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just wondering, does the Minister think it\u2019s acceptable that, as of the March 2023 quarter, only 37 percent of the 12,500 work-ready job seekers who have been receiving the benefit for over five years were receiving any employment case management; and of those, only 0.6 percent of the work-ready job seekers receiving the benefit for over five years were receiving any other form of case management in the March 2023 quarter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EIf this is an issue, is there a plan to get a bit better in that way or of helping people get into employment when they are long-term dependent on the job-ready jobseeker? What\u2019s the plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002229e0c077203c46b0a8aa81bec614465c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229e0c077203c46b0a8aa81bec614465c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Just currently, what we have is around 64,077 in employment case management. What we did from the time we got into Government was invest quite heavily in front-line, work-focused case management, and we\u2019ve continued to do that over the time that we have been in there and ring-fenced that. Because what we saw previously was that the demand was going up for income support and hardship support, and so inevitably what was happening before we got in was the focus on work was reducing. So we have a much stronger ring-fenced support now for those that need it through the welfare system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI will say that this was one of the things that came out of the Welfare Expert Advisory Group\u2019s work. They had spoken to people about their thoughts to do with the welfare system, and many had said they wanted a stronger focus and more support for upskilling and training and for that work focus. What we also have been doing is very much focused\u2014over the COVID period and this has continued\u2014on supporting people who come on to benefit quickly to get into work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s where programmes like the Rapid Return to Work programme are really important, because the best way in which you can avoid long-term welfare dependency is to get in there quickly and support people into employment so that they are not on benefit for long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe also did things which have been questioned by some members in the House but I think that this is the right thing to do, where some of the employment programmes that we are offering, although still targeted to people who are at risk of being unemployed or not getting a job in a tight labour market\u2014so M\u0101ori; Pacific; disabled; in some instances, women\u2014we have opened up some of our employment programmes so that those targeted groups may not be on benefit but get access to the programmes anyway, because then it helps to mitigate the risk of them coming into the welfare system to start with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo those are some of the ways in which we\u2019ve been working, and we continue to work, to mitigate the risks of long-term welfare dependency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb23627d95b6418694e215f3ece17c27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb23627d95b6418694e215f3ece17c27\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just picking up on the issue around sanctions and work seminars, there are reports of the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) threatening to cut job seekers\u2019 income in half, in error. This is reported by Ethan Te Ora, from The Post, on 19 July of 2023. This has followed a doubling of benefit sanctions in the Wellington region. So while I take the point that benefit sanctions have decreased over the period when we had lockdowns, a doubling of sanctions in three months is quite a significant increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhy I was asking the Minister about her confidence in the integrity of information gathering in those workshops, and even the value of those workshops and whether they\u2019re meaningfully supporting people into employment, is that MSD has been unable to actually give us information of how many people who attend those workshops are actually entering employment, and how many are attending those workshops. That information seems not to be collected centrally, but the information that is collected centrally is how many people are punished for not being engaged with those workshops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister\u2019s not able to quantify, actually, how many people are being supported into jobs as a direct and tangible result of those work seminars, how is she confident that those workshops are worth it, when all we can actually understand is how many people are punished. So I guess I\u2019m just asking the Minister to reassure us that, over the course of the next year, she can quantify how many people are supported into good, well-paying employment as a direct result of those work seminars, in the same way she\u2019s able to quantify directly how many people are punished as a direct result of not engaging with those work seminars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00227f0c0910077745f9860e66e17f501e27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f0c0910077745f9860e66e17f501e27\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. To that question, and it has been raised before, I think that the chief executive may have spoken to it at select committee as well. The work seminars on their own are not something that necessarily will support someone into employment. Someone may attend a work seminar and then learn about the Mana in Mahi programme or learn about some of the other employment products that are there, some of the other supports that are in place. They may get support for how they look for jobs, what they need to do to prepare for work, but on their own, they can\u2019t be measured as something that will support someone into work by itself. There\u2019s a whole lot of support that needs to go around it. For some, it will be the ongoing work and support that they\u2019re getting from their front-line work-focused case manager as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAnd so when we have programmes that are work-focused, like Mana in Mahi, He Poutama Rangatahi, Flexi-wage, Apprenticeship Boost, we can measure how many people go into those and then whether or not they retain the work that they take up and then whether or not they come back on to benefit or not\u2014whether they complete and then go and do something else\u2014so it is measurable, I guess. But the work seminars, by themselves, are not something where you can measure an employment outcome; they are just a part of what is provided to help prepare and support someone on their employment journey and into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIn terms of sanctions, again, I would need the member, and anyone else who has examples where they think that someone has been treated unfairly with a sanction applied where it shouldn\u2019t have been, to let me know. And, obviously, if there was a number of cases and it looked like there was something happening that wasn\u2019t quite right, then we would look into it further. But otherwise it would be a case by case basis. And just to assure that member, the review of sanctions is under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00224113e96ab644461eb6ebb2dfd572bd2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224113e96ab644461eb6ebb2dfd572bd2d\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I have just a few questions for the Minister, the Hon Carmel Sepuloni. The first is in relation to that increase in people on the main benefit, which I referred to earlier. I note that also the future years a person will spend on a main benefit has increased, so that the average future years a person will spend on a main benefit has increased to 12.8 years, up considerably from what it was in 2017, at 10.7 years. I wonder if the Minister could explain to us why it is that people are spending longer periods on benefits under her Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI also was interested, in the Estimates, to see that there have been significant funding reductions for a number of training programmes previously available to beneficiaries, including a $68 million decrease in funding for the Flexi-wage programme, around a $15\u00A0million decrease in funding for the M\u0101ori Trades and Training Fund, and an around $8\u00A0million decrease in funding for the Mana in Mahi programme. I\u2019m hoping the Minister can explain to us why those reductions have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd, finally, I wanted to ask the Minister just a little bit more about that review of Working for Families. What is the intent of that review? How long has it been going on? Why is it happening? And what does she want to see come out of it? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022da2c8ef792e8431bb8e37aa03a6c9bc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da2c8ef792e8431bb8e37aa03a6c9bc5\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E In terms of the forecasts or predictions around future years on the main benefit, I do need to give that some context. Often, when people look at that, they think it is the sole failure of the welfare system or that it\u2019s because of the welfare system that any forecast period of time on benefit has increased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe reality is that what it comes down to is the complex nature of the social and health issues that people are coming on to the welfare system with. It is things like whether or not they have a history of having been in State care, having been under the care of Oranga Tamariki. It is whether or not they perhaps have been incarcerated. And, as I said, the other social and health challenges, including the prevalence of mental health amongst those that are coming on to benefit, then add to the years, I guess, that have been put on the predicted number of years that someone might be on benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThat doesn\u2019t have to be the case. We\u2019re certainly working hard with the Ministry of Social Development to ensure that people who come on to benefit are getting the support that they need to be able to get into employment, and it varies; it depends on what challenges they come with and what the barriers are for them that are affecting their ability to be able to get into employment. So it is important that we have a broad range of offerings within the welfare system to support people into upskilling and training and work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESome of the reductions have been due to no longer having COVID funding\u2014let\u2019s face that\u2014but, if we look across the employment offerings, what we can see is actually we are still investing significantly into supporting people into upskilling and training and employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec4f0704b81343848bba0af76f93c6b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec4f0704b81343848bba0af76f93c6b8\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the answers that were given to my previous question around employment case management and how we\u2019re helping people to not become long-term dependent on benefits, but my question was really around: what are we doing to the people who are there, who are now on long-term dependency on a benefit and not receiving the employment case management? So whilst the answers were really good around how we\u2019re preventing people becoming long-term dependent on benefit, what are we doing for the ones that are already there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002232b51057403447bb8b8f26b09aa57819\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232b51057403447bb8b8f26b09aa57819\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E So just picking up on the workshops, I know that the Minister for Social Development talked about that it is not just people going directly into jobs that happen as a result of those job fairs, job workshops, etc., but, for example, with the ones in Wellington where sanctions had increased, she was able to actually tell me which employers had engaged directly with it and attended, for example. But then there was no information around how many people attended even, right? And so, I guess, while I get her point that there\u2019s multiple things that may happen at the workshops, is it concerning for her that there\u2019s an inability to present quick and easy information about how many people are attending and how many people are actually then going into jobs as a direct result of engaging with those workshops? Does she not think that is useful information that would be worthwhile to collect in the same way that she does collect sanctions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00221db5f85fb7bd4dad9e4469d1a240df60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221db5f85fb7bd4dad9e4469d1a240df60\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Attendance? I think that\u2019s an interesting question, so I\u2019ll certainly take that away and find out why they haven\u2019t been able to provide you with that data. But, again, trying to correlate the work seminars with direct employment outcomes is not going to happen, because of the range of supports that come about because of their attendance at the work seminars. So I have to say that from what I can see, and certainly from what I have overseen as Minister, the reporting by the Ministry of Social Development, now, on outcomes through employment programs and upskilling and training programs\u2014the transparency that is provided with respect to the effectiveness of those programmes far exceeds anything that existed when we first took office at the end of 2017. So I\u2019m really glad with that progress. But, of course, we want to continue to be able to provide insights and data to show how effective the investments are and how well these programs are working for New Zealanders that take them up, who have come on to the welfare system\u2014or perhaps didn\u2019t have to come on to the welfare system because they accessed these supports. So I think there is ongoing work there to deal with regards to reporting, but I\u2019m very, very, very proud of where we have got to, and it far exceeds, as I said, what existed when we first took office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EJust with respect to the ACT member Karen Chhour\u2019s question, there are a range of supports that are in place for long-term beneficiaries, so I\u2019ll just speak to a few. So Oranga Mahi is one to support people with higher barriers\u2014often mental health and disability related. It\u2019s really important that we recognize that one of the highest levels of unemployment sits with people who have mental health and disabilities. For far too long they have not been invested in, and there is an overwhelming desire for many of them who want to work but aren\u2019t necessarily given the opportunity to work or provided with the support to be able to get into employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAnother example is the Training Incentive Allowance, with some of our sole parents being at risk or being on benefit for longer periods of time because of their care responsibilities. Reinstating that not only means that they have a good chance of getting into employment but it also means that they have a good chance of getting into better paid employment that is more meaningful for them and actually can be\u2014you know, can create a generational shift. We know the research is there to support that a child\u2019s level of academic attainment is often dictated by the mother\u2019s level of academic achievement. Now, not all Training Incentive Allowance recipients are women but a big proportion of them are, due to the fact that it is those on sole parent support that are able to take that up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u00221963029ebf0944bbbd7515b34e90a0f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221963029ebf0944bbbd7515b34e90a0f0\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thought I would just ask a different line of questioning. Minister, you spoke about insights and data. My question, really, is about what work the Social Wellbeing Agency has done to support the Government\u2019s response to recent extreme weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e57e2f6c738d4a10a78ed76961536d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e57e2f6c738d4a10a78ed76961536d3f\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Mr\u2014Madam Chair; sorry, I keep forgetting that the Chair has changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThey have done a lot to support what is happening with the recent weather events. They\u2019ve been able to provide insights that inform the decision-making, but it\u2019s not just the weather events; they\u2019ve been working across Government to support some of the priority work programmes. They have been able to provide data and insights on young people who have been involved in ram raids. That data gives a very clear picture of some of the social challenges that these young people were facing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThey also informed the work that was done around alternative education, to provide insights and data on the effectiveness of alternative education. That will help to inform the review and any changes that might need to be made there. They\u2019ve been working actively with the family violence and sexual violence programme, led by Minister Marama Davidson, and supporting with the data and insights there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAnd they continue to provide the secretariat support to the Social Wellbeing Board, which is all of the chief executives of our main social sector Government agencies. That means that they are tied into a number of the priority work programmes and on hand to be able to support with data and insights. They are making a massive contribution, often not recognised behind the scenes, because they just quietly get on and do their thing. But they are doing a fantastic job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff4ef710005942aa98feb97a7cde1d20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff4ef710005942aa98feb97a7cde1d20\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019m wanting to ask some questions around the Accessibility for New Zealanders Bill, which I understand may now no longer be presented to Parliament before the election, which I\u2019m hoping to have confirmed. I will celebrate loudly if I get to hear that, considering the huge opposition from disability communities to that piece of legislation, and what a deep let-down it was for all of us who care about removing barriers to full participation in our society. So I\u2019m interested to know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee05da397ba24f149e3ba6ab6105e878\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! This is an Estimates debate, and so the member will confine her comments and questions to the Appropriation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f35b45b59c0a45489fda745f51dfbf0d\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: So the accessibility bill, in terms of the implementation of that, has financial impacts in the year ahead, and actually, in terms of the budgets through the organisations, it fits within the gambit of the agencies, and so I think is in space for conversation in this hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u002224d0c117f62d4c34af3199bc64850610\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224d0c117f62d4c34af3199bc64850610\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I appreciate the answers that have been provided. I\u2019m particularly interested in bringing it back to the training programmes and the fact that under your leadership, this Government has cut funding to these programmes. My colleague identified a $68 million decrease in the Flexi-wage programme, a $14.5 million decrease in the M\u0101ori Trade Training fund, and an almost $8 million decrease in funding for the Mana in Mahi programme. Why is that, Minister, when there\u2019s been a constant increase in job seeker numbers this year, with more than 100,000 individuals who\u2019ve been on jobseeker for more than a year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002230e685c1219845e393e6c77521a1816e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230e685c1219845e393e6c77521a1816e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just respond to this question while we check out the appropriation for the last question. There continues to be a huge investment in upskilling and training, as I mentioned before. Some of the initiatives were funded through COVID funding and so we were never going to be able to continue funding to the extent that we were during that period of time with that additional funding that was available. But we\u2019ve maintained our focus on those areas that we do know that work, making the Training Incentive Allowance permanent now, because previously, when we reinstated it, it was funded via COVID funding. Continuing with Mana in Mahi, continuing with Flexi-wage, continuing with the Apprenticeship Boost, and then, of course, committing to two more years of the Mayors Taskforce for Jobs and Auckland Council\u2019s Ng\u0101 Puna P\u016Bkenga\u2014so it is still an expansion of support that is in place compared to when we took office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe good thing about these programmes is that, as I said earlier to the Green Party member, we are able to measure the effectiveness of the programmes and see that they are making a real difference, particularly for those groups that we have been targeting because of the fact that they could be disadvantaged in a tight labour market. So I\u2019m really proud of the investments that we have. We were never going to be able to retain the level of investment that came with the COVID funding, but they were the right investments to make at the time, and we\u2019ve continued on with those things that we do know are effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cacd51856a1d4984a0c79e589d5aa842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cacd51856a1d4984a0c79e589d5aa842\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, for the comprehensive answer. I\u2019m now going to turn to children in benefit-dependent homes. Could the Minister please state what aspects of the 2023/24 Estimates actively plan to reduce the number of children in benefit-dependent homes when there are currently 211,000 children living in these benefit-dependent homes\u201439,000 more than when National was in power?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00226167274f3b964a0d89147810a6b513b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226167274f3b964a0d89147810a6b513b5\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just going to respond to the Green Party member, Jan Logie. I am being very careful because I\u2019m unsure of where the process is at with the Accessibility for New Zealanders Bill and consideration of that. So I\u2019m seeking advice to make sure that I don\u2019t pre-empt any decisions or statements made by the actual Minister for Disability Issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWith regards to children in benefit households, recognising that when the number of people go up on benefit, then we do have an increase in the number of children that are in benefit households or in households where they are receiving a benefit. Recognising too, though, that there are a number of families who are receiving a benefit who are also earning whilst they receive a benefit. They may be working part-time and it may be the extent to which they can work because of their care responsibilities with their children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EBecause of that, I\u2019m really proud of the fact that we were able to lift the abatement threshold so that they can earn more whilst on benefit without losing the benefit because that helps to prepare them, I think, for full-time work when they are able to\u2014dependent on what their care responsibilities are for their children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got to keep in mind that many of those that have children on benefit\u2014not all, but many\u2014are sole parents, so often it is difficult to hold down a full-time job when you have children and you are the sole caregiver for those children. Despite the fact that we do see more children in households where someone is claiming a benefit\u2014but keeping in mind some of them may be working part-time as well\u2014we still see 77,000 fewer children living in poverty, and those are the most recent figures that we\u2019ve been given on the after-housing-costs measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThat goes to show that not only have our increases to support through the welfare system but our increases to things like the minimum wage\u2014and the range of other initiatives that we put in place\u2014are making a real difference to the levels of poverty experienced by children in New Zealand, and we need to continue on with that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u002245c88fa8e17443b3a77a760030f60941\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245c88fa8e17443b3a77a760030f60941\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, to elaborate further on that, the question that I asked was what aspects of the 2023/24 Estimates actively plan to reduce the number of children in benefitdependent homes? The Minister\u2019s response addressed as to why children are in benefitdependent homes. I\u2019m asking specifically to look into what is the Government\u2019s active plan to reduce the number of children in such homes. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00226a0968453d6743909756f542ecfe60d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a0968453d6743909756f542ecfe60d7\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll have to speak again to the investment in the upskilling and training and employment programme. Clearly we can\u2019t support the children into work, but what we can do is work with the families to support them to take up employment, and I\u2019ve listed off the investments that have been made\u2014particularly the ones at Budget 2023 and what we are planning for the year ahead\u2014so I won\u2019t traverse that again. But we do need to be supporting the parents to be able to take up employment and then, clearly, if they are no longer on benefit, then there are fewer children that are in households that are on benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u0022776d3e6a0d1a437b9c8d839caa8a5473\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022776d3e6a0d1a437b9c8d839caa8a5473\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, I\u2019d like to hear about the minimum wage. What work are you doing to ensure that all people are paid at least the minimum wage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002248f14506b93241718e83f1b89c53435c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248f14506b93241718e83f1b89c53435c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E A good question. The Government is investing $37.312 million over four years to replace the minimum wage exemption with a wage supplement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ECurrently, approximately 800 disabled people are able to be paid less than the minimum wage on the basis that they are perceived to be less productive. We\u2019ve committed to removing this discriminatory rule in our manifesto, and our recent investment through Budget 2023 follows through on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIt has not been an easy discussion. I think there\u2019s been real fear that the workplaces that employ these people may not be able to continue to operate. We\u2019ve tried to work with the sector in a way in which we can support them to retain their employees and then, of course, support those employers to be able to remain in their jobs. And so that is where we got to, with respect to the wage supplement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI have to say that often it\u2019s overlooked, when we\u2019re having this discussion, that it\u2019s actually part of our international commitment through the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. For quite some time we have been questioned about this practice that we have and there was an expectation from the UN committee that we would get on to addressing it. So it is with some relief that we are finally getting there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6e5b8e80bd94c70bf61df32b55568e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6e5b8e80bd94c70bf61df32b55568e3\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. When will the disabled community see the changes? And the second question to that is if there are any other details you can give us\u2014tell us more about the wage supplement you just spoke about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b9d1607659642ba8582ab13d9994a44\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: I might just take another question. Thanks, Anahila. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e6057d5fbc24fb8a5652ab6297a79c5\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A\u003C/span\u003E: OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2aa3657b60647b3b23c2fec087f7d40\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: No, not from you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a0d5e6cfaf405fb5b6a43af3b5a04b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a0d5e6cfaf405fb5b6a43af3b5a04b\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I was wondering if Minister Carmel Sepuloni could speak to us about the work support available for disabled people going into employment or education and training, and that the Disabled Persons Assembly has done research around that report that has shown a significant drop in the payout. Off the top of my head, at the job level, it\u2019s dropped by about 30 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba5be0fe1246471a98f054060cc79a44\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: What has dropped?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285bdf2085c8f4c7bb945e9fcfe05c48e\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: Around the work\u2014and I\u2019m not remembering the name of the scheme; a work support scheme for people with disabilities going into employment or education and training. There are two separate funds that are available for people, to support them in employment or education and training. The Disabled Persons Assembly have done an analysis of the scheme and found that a lot less money is being paid out, and the maximum amount that can possibly be paid out has not been increased since the funds were set up in 1994. They\u2019re really concerned and want a review of the funds, and also about clearer guidance for employers on reasonable accommodation, because there seems to be some confusion, where maybe Government has turned the fund into a fund of last resort and is expecting people to put up and pay for basic things themselves, or expecting employers to do it as part of their obligations to provide reasonable accommodation. But disabled people feel as if they\u2019re stuck in the middle of that and are having to pay for the cost of our disabling society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022db2bb8fb5dcc48b78a3a09ce9038f0ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db2bb8fb5dcc48b78a3a09ce9038f0ff\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The question that the member Jan Logie is asking I think I\u2019m going to need to be put in writing, because I don\u2019t know if this was something that was discussed through the Estimates preparation or whether that\u2019s something that I\u2019ve been given information about, to be honest. So I think it\u2019s better that you put that in writing, and then we\u2019ll follow up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI am relieved to be able to say that there\u2019s been a lot of work done on the disabled persons employment action plan, and the actions are either achieved or tracking. That was very much informed by disabled people themselves and having that in place will enable us to be able to track our progress with respect to providing real support to disabled people, and where we fall short, we shouldn\u2019t be afraid to put our hands up and say that more needs to be done, because, as I\u2019ve said a number of times in this House, this is an area and a community that have been underserved with respect to any focus for employment programmes and upskilling and training for far too long. We have started\u2014I feel, as a Government\u2014working with disabled people, but there is much more to do in that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just speaking to my colleague the member of Parliament Anahila Kanongata\u2019a. I think the question was whether or not I could tell you more about the wage supplement that we\u2019re putting in place to replace the minimum wage exemption. After consultation with disabled people, it was really clear that a wage supplement is the only feasible option to replace the minimum wage exemption while protecting existing jobs, and that is where we landed. That is what came out of the consultation with disabled people, with disabled persons\u2019 organisations, and also with employers. So that is certainly the route that we decided to take as a consequence of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00224a8dda8a2dd7408e8e8a78dc1ae3b9d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a8dda8a2dd7408e8e8a78dc1ae3b9d4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the committee report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0aacc00becb4ce3ae8bcb3613e38797\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0aacc00becb4ce3ae8bcb3613e38797\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has further considered the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022668561d62d15479d8262faa15a19853f\u0022\u003ESale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1e04703724a4ea79ad78ed07215fe4c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000493\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 20 July.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002266e74a45dec440bda970c9e0c2012790\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266e74a45dec440bda970c9e0c2012790\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to give the last speech of the day\u2014hopefully\u2014on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill for several reasons, which I\u2019ll get into shortly, but I do note that all the submitters from the industry, the alcohol industry\u2014none of them actually oppose the stated intent of the bill. The problem is the stated intent of the bill is not actually progressed at all by this bill. It\u2019s unfortunate that it doesn\u2019t really address the issue it sought out to solve, and it\u2019s going to have a potentially huge impact on those businesses. There are 67 councils in New Zealand and that\u2019ll mean 67 different licensing authorities, so there will be no real consistency in this with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt allows local authorities to decline the alcohol licence every three years when it comes up, based on its locality, if it\u2019s close to a school or a health facility, and there is a principle in resource management law that those that come to the nuisance have less of a right. Actually, there could be a scenario, particularly like with cellar doors, which we spoke about yesterday, where\u2014and I can think of several that have been established for almost 100 years and, potentially, could lose their licence because, say, a kindergarten gets built just down the road from them, which has come to the nuisance, effectively. So I think that\u2019s a pretty poor result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI note also it restricts who can question and cross-examine submitters, and that really speaks to the lack of justice, effectively, in this. If we have the ability for the licensing authorities to decide, and they may well favour one side or the other of the argument, and they can choose who gets to give evidence and who gets to cross-examine, we\u2019re getting lopsided justice. It has all the hallmarks of a kangaroo court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI do note, going to things like cellar doors, as I mentioned earlier, and the tourism impacts that they have\u2014and they\u2019re often located in historical places\u2014it\u2019s really interesting to note that pre the lockdowns, international wine tourists spent 27 percent more, on average, than the average tourist, and 23 percent of international tourists visit a winery. So we are going to shoot ourselves in the foot with this legislation. We\u2019re just getting our tourism industry back off its knees after those dreadful lockdowns, and now we\u2019re going to potentially bring the whole sector into chaos. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWhile it might be well-intentioned, this bill, it misses the mark. It\u2019s miles off it, and therefore we cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224d2e6ed0a71f48cc90847192fd07e4bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d2e6ed0a71f48cc90847192fd07e4bd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the debate is interrupted and set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 15 August 2023. Kia ora mai t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.57 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230803ce3b4e2191954a9ca3cb1354528890e7000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"