"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220496924856714a4ca6ee22b95afd1825\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 15 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228887fc1f675245a1ada964fa50c21a32\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 15 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002298fcde24a124430b9310953c28168b3e\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a673c12ff3f44a49666e7c072f88f12\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002279356025dcd5435eb4e85e4b4e1fd4f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279356025dcd5435eb4e85e4b4e1fd4f9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225321c49f826d4c0a9eb707785646a7a6\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ca01e63511746d3990680b6f8190222\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00225741091114794789a8e2851d7277facb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225741091114794789a8e2851d7277facb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022b899487eab274cceab03ad05d3338050\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b899487eab274cceab03ad05d3338050\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Charlotte Christie requesting that the House ban the sale of vaping products in non-vape premises\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Kylee Kelly requesting that the House ban dog shock collars\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Kiwilaw Probate and Estates Ltd requesting that the House raise the financial threshold for requiring probate or letters of administration before estate funds can be released by a financial institution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00227a546a0f579045a0bf0d727ff5978068\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a546a0f579045a0bf0d727ff5978068\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00220f245e3e2fc14c34a55aa2eef60a9dc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f245e3e2fc14c34a55aa2eef60a9dc2\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2021 annual report of the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022 annual report of the Social Workers Registration Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to declaration of inconsistency on the voting age in the Electoral Act 1993 and the Local Electoral Act 2001\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to referral petition from Juliana Carvalho\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to the report of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Patricia Fabish\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinistry of Health Long-Term Insights Briefing, August 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-26 statement of intent for Predator Free 2050\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-24 statement of intent and updated 2022-23 statement of performance expectations for Te Whatu Ora Health New Zealand \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2021-22 statement of performance expectations for the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-23 statement of performance expectations for the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-24 statement of performance expectations for NZQA, Predator Free 2050, and the Social Workers Registration Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022009cc6071a5a483da3446d916a462eb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022009cc6071a5a483da3446d916a462eb7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the Parliamentary Service Commission\u2019s annual report for the year ended 30 June 2023. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002288a0dff5a0284fc5b97faf2e8bab235c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288a0dff5a0284fc5b97faf2e8bab235c\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Environment Committee on the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Einquiry into the 2020 general election and referendums\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Christian Newman\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Corinda Taylor\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Attorney-General under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 on the Returning Offenders (Management and Information) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Eye Health Aotearoa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Ian Young\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Primary Production Committee on the Department of Conservation, Land Information New Zealand, Long-Term Insights Briefing 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Regulations Review Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ecomplaint about the Health Act (COVID-19 Alert Level 3) Order 2020\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Self-isolation Requirements) Amendment Order (No\u00A02) 2022 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00221913e6174d6c4969b83c3cad07142bd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221913e6174d6c4969b83c3cad07142bd3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. The reports of the Primary Production Committee, the Regulations Review Committee, and the Justice Committee are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa9460d1b4214e55bf1c05d487e104a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa9460d1b4214e55bf1c05d487e104a0\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVictims of Sexual Violence (Strengthening Legal Protections) Legislation Bill, introduction \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EElectoral (Lowering Voting Age for Local Elections and Polls) Legislation Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f785fa95eab941daa7a3247b91b1765e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f785fa95eab941daa7a3247b91b1765e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002236a62080f7f449a7a1f73c9c093bbc0f\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dcfa5859ccab49ebbd3e9155205775dd\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f9d92b261a84dc0830490d8d8bf22ba\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002212cb7864daeb40479b15c2c60ee36649\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212cb7864daeb40479b15c2c60ee36649\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022962b54a373414551b986e0ffbae9c0f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022962b54a373414551b986e0ffbae9c0f1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yes, particularly this Government\u2019s work to build an economy that keeps wages growing ahead of inflation and maintains record low unemployment. Statistics New Zealand data out today shows median weekly earnings from wages and salaries grew 7.1 percent in the year to June 2023, ahead of the rate of inflation. We know that the most important thing we can do to help New Zealanders with the cost of living is ensure that they are in work with growing wages. I\u2019m particularly proud that we have delivered unemployment below 4 percent for 24 consecutive months, a feat that has only been achieved on one other occasion in the last 30 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bebed2a8ac6d466aa0b2e4e2573c63fe\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How much money does the Government currently collect in goods and services tax, or GST, on fresh fruit and vegetables, and can he confirm it\u2019s approximately $500 million per year\u2014$10 million per week or $2 per person per week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228624180530024adc828db76f18f6e260\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The cost across the forecast period is about $2.2 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226620b39eb584401db35468409d8824d8\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with his Government\u2019s Tax Working Group, which said, \u201Cchanges in rates for specific goods and services were on average not fully passed through and had an estimated average pass through rate of approximately 30\u00A0percent.\u201D, and, if so, does he accept that taking $2 worth of GST off fresh fruit and vegetables per person would save the average person 60c a week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225771dcf639f446bb93c3ccc6f5c0e3df\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc7043da99e041ffb9ef85918452afdb\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225019a52601614420a1e562249543f85e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Because I don\u2019t agree with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f732db17980b44ca815c479bf75bd551\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept his Government\u2019s Tax Working Group\u2019s conclusion that low-income households\u2019 benefit from taking GST off food would be three times less than high-income households\u2019, and can he name any groceries a low-income shopper won\u2019t need to take out of their trolley and put back on the shelf because the Government saved them 60c by no longer charging GST on fresh fruit and vegetables?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a52f3dd277134df791c66291984680e2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the assertion in the last part of the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa561637197142ffbec9a93b23f079ce\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the Government\u2019s record of increasing spending by $56 billion per annum has led to a culture of extravagance where public servants think it\u2019s acceptable to spend $40,000 on a leaving function, and what does it say that ACT has been able to identify a billion dollars of wasteful spending programmes that could be stopped immediately without anyone noticing except the people working in those bureaucracies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d8da8288450430c8448bdf2b7224ef0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I do note that some of the policies the ACT Party proposes to cut would result in significant job losses across the economy, including in the private sector. The ACT Party wants to cut all of the support for the screen sector in New Zealand\u2014no more Hobbits, no more Lord of the Rings, no more Avatar; cut under an ACT-National Government. I notice they also want to cut the support for the space sector, so forget about Rocket Lab and other innovative industries that actually see New Zealand as a great place to base their operations; gone under an ACT-National Government. These would be private sector jobs gone. I can say to the members in the ACT Party and the National Party that a tax cut won\u2019t mean much to people who lose their jobs because of their cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9d1e1643f31496b8bdd01e7d0820a5e\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister seriously expect New Zealanders to believe that Peter Beck\u2019s success with Rocket Lab is because his Government employs 50-odd people, mostly hired after Rocket Lab hit lift-off, or is he really just worried that he\u2019s going to need a new job soon and he\u2019d like to be a hobbit in the next movie that\u2019s sponsored by the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228259cf4057c4289af623eba59210e94\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member thinks that we shouldn\u2019t have a regulatory framework for space in New Zealand, he should talk to the previous Government, who were the ones who put it in place in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fc984f5b93546efbcd8747ac457a637\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Would he say it\u2019s a good example of the Government tightening its belt that Mac Leauanae\u2019s $40,000 farewell from the Ministry for Pacific Peoples was followed by a welcome to the Ministry for Culture and Heritage that cost only $12,500, including $468.70 on flowers, which included 60 bucks of GST?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259ac4aa3ff424046b8c6e2fdbab3df09\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t believe that expenditure was appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229077534353ae4c45a73009479409d1f0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Will he admit that the Government\u2019s firearm reforms failed after five firearm deaths\u2014half of New Zealand\u2019s annual average of fatal shootings\u2014occurred in just 17 days, or would he like to take this opportunity to argue that we\u2019ll all be safe soon because those criminals and the crims who supplied them with illegal firearms will be registering their guns soon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a162cd38d4e4e63a03c45bb3b857169\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, if Governments had worked earlier to remove illegal firearms from circulation, we might not be in the situation that we are in now. I welcome the fact that the member now seems to be backtracking on his unequivocal pledge to remove the firearms register\u2014one of the tools the police have been asking for, for decades\u2014that is being delivered by this Government and that would be at risk under an ACT-National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268791a4a2c454a62870e2c4f8561959d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does his statement that \u201Cthe healthcare system should be treating people equally\u201D\u2014is that a statement he stands by, and as Prime Minister is there anything he can do about race being used to prioritise surgical wait-lists, give out Prezzy cards exclusively to pregnant M\u0101ori women, a pharmacy service being accessible only to M\u0101ori and Pasifika, a separate M\u0101ori Health Authority, and a medical health line that opens with \u201CPress 1 if you are M\u0101ori\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222faad8b8eab34f06b675ea557e9bdd79\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the member\u2019s question, yes, absolutely. I recognise that our health system has delivered inequitable outcomes for M\u0101ori and Pacific New Zealanders, including New Zealanders in rural communities, for example, and proactive targeting of ensuring that we are creating equal outcomes for different population groups, I think, is a positive thing. I note the member isn\u2019t attacking the fact that there are now targeted support services\u2014health services\u2014for rural communities in the way that he is some of those other population groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f18e9b70566f4f9681c34935c3531a97\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that both M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori live in cities and in rural areas, and what New Zealanders object to deeply and strongly is the constant profiling of citizens by race by his Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9e914b48fe547a7b16a0faab8f9356f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely reject the statement in that question, which is just plain racism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b16202b81ba049dab2985672bf163e0f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u002217de635676804750ae898a6fd0a7c368\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217de635676804750ae898a6fd0a7c368\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What announcements has she made recently about improving the pay and conditions of nurses and midwives in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b34f7362fd944849a77c6da81d4af77d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b34f7362fd944849a77c6da81d4af77d\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I was pleased to announce that New Zealand\u2019s hard-working Te Whatu Ora hospital nurses and midwives have accepted their collective employment agreement. This was on top of the nursing pay equity settlement announced on 31 July and the increase in midwifery pay rates for pay equity announced on 6 July. This Government is proud to have delivered for nurses and midwives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d46284d00e498597d28a75c7c6f6c5\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: What will this mean for graduate nurses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3dbb3f0f1e74bd480926f26c632e94e\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: When Labour came into Government in 2017, graduate nurses earned $49,449 a year. Over the first five years we were in Government, we increased these nurses\u2019 pay to $59,834 a year. Now that pay equity has been settled and the collective has been agreed, these nurses now earn $73,566. Next year, in April, they will receive a further increase to $75,773. This is a total increase across our term of Government of 53.2 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221756b2423e6a430986bb5a6bd05ad74a\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: What will the announcement mean for registered nurses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711bcd0338184c2592d0aa7b5e609e97\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: When Labour came into Government in 2017, registered nurses on the top step of the pay scale earned $66,755. Over the first five years we were in Government, we increased these nurses\u2019 pay to $83,186. Now that pay equity has been settled and the collective has been agreed, these nurses earn $103,630. Next year, in April, they will receive a further increase to $106,739. This is an increase of 59.9\u00A0percent since we entered Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a4398486811458ba97b6a874315cf3b\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this important to our health system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e910296afd4d6abb3b0f08b5f798ad\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The rates we pay our nurses in New Zealand are crucial to keeping them in our health system. Another priority is the wellbeing of our health workforce. Reaching agreement on these measures addresses many of the issues and concerns raised by the New Zealand Nurses Organisation during these negotiations. This Government is committed to addressing pressures on our health workers, and this settlement package is a step towards achieving that. I would like to acknowledge everyone involved in the bargaining process for both the collective and pay equity. The challenge of delivering healthcare in a complex and increasingly demanding environment is something we need to do together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e30d53115731455e816f363915fc9596\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebc48d5b964a472c893820bb8c18f295\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebc48d5b964a472c893820bb8c18f295\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9af94f08ba94df49723e95ad329e324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9af94f08ba94df49723e95ad329e324\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly this Government\u2019s work to ease the cost of living and support New Zealand families and businesses through difficult economic conditions. We are building an economy that keeps wages growing ahead of inflation, that maintains record low unemployment. We\u2019re taking practical steps to support families like removing the $5 prescription charge, extending targeted childcare assistance, extending 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education to two-year-olds, and making public transport free for kids and at half-price for younger New Zealanders. Our policies are carefully designed to deal with the pressures families are facing right now while maintaining prudent levels of Government spending and keeping a lid on debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a742b1330a7643a0b8a09472951815b0\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was his trade Minister, Damien O\u2019Connor, right or wrong when he said \u201CWe probably don\u2019t have enough tax in this country.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245692c3fd18e4ae7ab6f7e1acca4f163\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s taking the Minister\u2019s quote out of the full context in which it was made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222499cd264f9f40d4b425fb040a77f7fa\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was former tax lecturer Deborah Russell right or wrong when she said removing interest deductibility from rental properties was \u201Ca bad idea\u201D and that \u201CPlenty of residential property investors would simply increase rents.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2ef23525b747eb8d925d47b69674f6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s policy position on this is very clear and I think Deborah Russell is making a significant contribution in the tax area. I note that those comments were made over 10 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426d59805b924cdb86d18c3fc42c2d90\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that since the Government increased the cost of owning a rental property by removing interest deductibility, average weekly rents have increased by $75, just as Deborah Russell predicted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc83bf3a8624e16a8fa74c10e38c0df\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I note that there has been a significant spike in inflation during that period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad05f383980c4294ab3e466c11a44264\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How much better or worse off would a typical low-income renter be if they save $2 a week on fruit and vegetables but were paying an extra $75 a week in rent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f4d40eaa9440cb9a8a3df385ad9bb2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is doing a number of things to support low-income New Zealanders, including making sure that their incomes are keeping up with the rising costs that they are facing. Wage growth is growing ahead of inflation. That is one of the best things we can do to support families through this inflationary period. Bringing inflation down is also one of the good things that we can do to support them, and I note many of the policies the member is promoting would result in higher inflation for longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f489a8b7736a4add959722f6879fd4d0\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received advice about the number of IRD officials and lawyers that would be required to determine whether a mixed bag of salad or a vacuum-sealed beetroot count as processed or fresh?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022242fd522372849bf99617baaea315257\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba6eb7f9f12543428d37b8220a0d4182\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was finance Minister Grant Robertson right or wrong when he said that cutting GST on some items will \u201Cmostly benefit supermarkets\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0390c57214043e59b07395b62c2ef2a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member himself has confessed to having a road to Damascus conversion. The policy that the Labour Party has announced, of course, will be implemented after the election. I welcome the member\u2019s confidence in the re-election of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c74409668a24bdc96b4c3e806e7f0f1\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Government\u2019s Tax Working Group, led by Sir Michael Cullen, right or wrong when they reported that evidence from 17 countries over 14 years found that only 30 percent of the benefits of GST exemptions were actually passed on to consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022693b2c0b2cee49b8b2b9acbb597119d8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I will allow everybody to make their own judgments on the Tax Working Group\u2019s report. Of course, I note that there are some other recommendations in there that the member isn\u2019t quite so enthusiastic about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e549e97844c42ddb109fcdb5ea5ef62\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Are there any members left in his Cabinet who actually support his tax policies or are they just waiting until the election so they can dump him and his desperate economic band-aid politics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc73750d4c6f4432aa6c6d8603d46d2c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, at least I have a clear tax policy, which is more than the member has, and I think it\u2019s because his co-leader hasn\u2019t figured out how to pay for it yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228082d2cb9dd94b34b9bf7223bd4eb0c8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Women\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u00222ef37870bd1a450eabc0e7d48e293401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ef37870bd1a450eabc0e7d48e293401\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Women: What recent announcements has the Government made on pay transparency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022d32251df57924b238360780bc8e8d23d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d32251df57924b238360780bc8e8d23d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister for Women):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, Minister Priyanca Radhakrishnan and I were proud to announce the Government is taking action to close the gender pay gap for New Zealand\u2019s women through a mandatory pay transparency reporting system. This is a significant next step to close the gender gap. It will mean 900 entities with over 250 employees will be required to publicly report their gender pay gap. This move is part of the Government\u2019s ongoing commitment to make New Zealand an equitable and desirable place for people to live, work, and do business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d31d992e5e74cbbb90d0b4a04b6803b\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: What will the system look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1614d7a32fc4f1cb332f6d6979781e8\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Organisations with 250 employees or more will report their pay gap initially, and then organisations with over 100 employees will be required to report after four years. We expect around 900 organisations to be covered initially, increasing to 2,700 when the threshold reduces. The Government is also committed to exploring the inclusion of ethnicity and pay gap reporting for M\u0101ori, Pacific peoples, and other ethnic groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e6c4bbcc0764d5bae0d9128c069eaac\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: Why is gender pay gap reporting important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228732b1105b504da2a10d84e900c6a507\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Gender pay gap reporting is one of several tools to address the gender pay gap and ensure equity in the workplace. Countries we compare ourselves to, including Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom, have introduced gender pay gap reporting with successful results. I would like to note that today, the gender pay gap has reduced from 9.2 percent to 8.6 percent. That is excellent progress, but while a gap exists there is still more work to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022650a0b04e986469a8fc013f0a2ea5988\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: How does this complement the Government\u2019s other work to close the gender pay gap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215bf323956344490b1ef586960cffb78\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: We know from history that achieving gender equity isn\u2019t an overnight fix but requires deliberate and concerted efforts. This Government has a strong track record of delivering for women in the workplace through increasing paid parental leave to 26 weeks, settling historic pay equity claims for close to 157,000 women, investing in KiwiSaver to match employer contribution to paid parental leave recipients, reducing the gender pay gap in the Public Service from 12.2 percent in 2019 to 7.7\u00A0percent, and reaching 50 percent representation of women on Government boards. There is still more work to do, but I am proud to be part of a Government that is putting in the tools we need to tackle the gender pay gap as a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7ad34377b1c42aa9e598719518ecc82\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00220a09ea3d43a8402c88376734e3e0f0bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a09ea3d43a8402c88376734e3e0f0bc\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions related to tax policy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00229d5cf1ba55344fc59f584927a802a05e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d5cf1ba55344fc59f584927a802a05e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made and undertaken, acknowledging that context can change as a result, for example, of global and domestic economic backdrops. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f63ebaf127804b61a2056da3dfb60be9\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his reported statement that removing GST from fruit and vegetables would mostly benefit supermarkets, and, if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6bb22ccb8fb430b80fb2fff21673874\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that the particular policies that the Labour Party has announced are important. They\u2019re going to be useful in the future when the member clearly believes a Labour Government will be re-elected, but they are not the subject of my ministerial responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa1fb6f8516548a0abfc6d460db66fd7\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his earlier statement\u2014yes or no? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274e9d24faaf7407484ac92b055289ee2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by\u2014as I said in my primary answer\u2014statements in the contexts they were made. The member, however, does give me an excellent inspiration for this, because when she back-flipped on the medium-density housing rules and it was put to her that it was a U-turn, she said, \u201CI don\u2019t see it that way, I think it\u2019s a step forward.\u201D It\u2019s a step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264e1c8be803f4dba9ad77a5da55e643a\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Was his earlier statement based on the analysis by his own tax working group, which found that similar changes in Europe were not fully passed through and, on average, consumers only reaped 30 percent of the benefit? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d0ad5c8f714332984bf1523d185a2b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: My earlier statements were based on the information I had at the time. My current statements are based on things which aren\u2019t my ministerial responsibility, but, again, I\u2019m glad to see the member\u2019s endorsement of the Labour Party continuing in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3413ea680954933b9268a4c4ad163b5\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Grant Robertson MP, who said at the weekend that depreciation deductions for commercial buildings were \u201Cthe last remaining \u2026 COVID \u2026 stimulus measure\u201D, or was the Minister correct when he said that it was \u201Cnot a temporary measure until we get back on our feet; it is, instead, a change to restore and correct policy settings.\u201D and \u201Cnot a short-term measure.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffc77892e38c4cc2934d09e3c6646d61\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my primary answer, I stand by the statements I\u2019ve made in the context in which they were made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afb493533f8d4850b3bcae6de8db4d17\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that a tax-free threshold paid for with a wealth tax would guarantee that more people have enough income to cover the essentials? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022428e2dcf1ee9452b9d073845ad2f7acf\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, that would depend on those people\u2019s circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c4224e8393e471783fa13b276de0ee2\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister asked for advice on how much it would cost to provide the Grocery Commissioner with the army of officials he would require in order to enforce a GST policy which would deliver a 100 percent reduction on a pass-through on fruit and vegetables? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8032ffb78ae49318bb7bf37d150563c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b290c933ee34a549cdd28ed5ad3ac8f\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Are there any other statements on tax he\u2019s made that he would like to walk back today, or would he prefer to ask the Prime Minister first? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5b9e197bbd34db188b9d31da18a88ab\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m very comfortable with the statements I\u2019ve made. However, I am happy to reach out to the member and assist her with taking down all of the signs that she\u2019s going to have to take down by midnight because they\u2019re against the rules of the Wellington City Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e378aab37e2494d8d08d7375d17f42e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Trade and Export Growth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u002292d2de4ae6fe486ebbfe5111e8497527\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292d2de4ae6fe486ebbfe5111e8497527\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade and Export Growth: What recent announcements has the Government made about sustainable and inclusive trade as part of the Trade for All agenda?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022be9b1043d15947e39e27623a61a9bdae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be9b1043d15947e39e27623a61a9bdae\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Trade and Export Growth):\u003C/span\u003E It was a privilege to be in Adelaide last week with my Closer Economic Relations (CER) colleague, the trade Minister for Australia, Don Farrell, and to conclude and sign a sustainable and inclusive trade declaration between Australia and New Zealand as we mark 40 years of closer economic relations. As close partners with shared values, both New Zealand and Australia believe in a trading system which sees everyone getting a fair go. This joint declaration is about upholding those values of sustainability and inclusion throughout the next 40 years of CER, and it sets out our commitment to work together on important issues like modern slavery, plastics pollution, climate change, and indigenous trade. The Government was proud to sign this declaration, progress our Trade for All agenda, and continue our world-leading work on sustainable and inclusive trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da9c76dddc84efc98ddae46ed4a84fe\u0022\u003EDan Rosewarne\u003C/span\u003E: What work has the Government done to ensure the momentum of our Trade for All agenda continues into the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022714182fd7dc74e2cae073594636114e2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: More great news; last week the Government released our refreshed Trade, Environment, and Climate Change Framework and our refreshed Trade and Labour Framework. It goes without saying that trade is key to our economic success, but it\u2019s also a tool for good. These updated frameworks will be used to guide our future trade negotiations and will ensure that this Government continues to negotiate agreements that don\u2019t just bring new opportunities for New Zealand exporters, but also improve standards of living, protect labour rights, and take action on climate change. This Labour Government\u2019s record on trade is historic. Since 2017, we have secured seven new or upgraded free-trade agreements, and each and every one of those free-trade agreements has delivered progress for our exporters, for our economy, and for our Trade for All agenda, and we fully intend to continue that momentum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe578aebbbe142639a67daa2a3f2df06\u0022\u003EDan Rosewarne\u003C/span\u003E: How does the recent UK free-trade agreement (FTA) reflect our Trade for All agenda?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6740346faa144048fa2e072212aa68f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the UK free-trade agreement is our very first trade agreement negotiated and signed under our Trade for All agenda. It is a gold standard\u2014in fact, I say a platinum standard\u2014agreement. The UK FTA delivers unprecedented access to the sixth largest economy in the world, saves Kiwi businesses $37 million in tariff reductions immediately, and sees 99.5 percent of our exports enter the UK market duty free. At the same time, the agreement also sets ambitious commitments on sustainable and inclusive trade, such as tackling harmful environmental subsidies. The UK FTA shows that market access and opportunities and Trade for All principles are not mutually exclusive; it is possible to have the best of both worlds, and with the UK FTA we indeed have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cca4e7f6223401f9c0e2c7ac5b4132d\u0022\u003EDan Rosewarne\u003C/span\u003E: How is our Trade for All agenda reflected in our recently signed EU FTA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022562b349c929246b3aef05283fa2dc7f5\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It keeps getting better. The EU FTA was also negotiated and signed under this Government\u2019s Trade for All agenda, and it delivers huge opportunities in a market of 450 million people. In fact, we expect that the EU FTA will increase our exports to the EU by up to $1.8 billion per year by 2035 and, of course, the agreement also includes ambitious outcomes in areas like climate action, subsidy reform, M\u0101ori trade, and gender equality. The Trade for All agenda is about maximising opportunities for all New Zealanders, and the EU FTA will boost our economy, cut costs to exporters, create new opportunities for small and medium businesses, and protect jobs for Kiwi families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db761b06ce59494f884ac2f2e02850d7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcc8c16489524c40b1a0b96d6d473a90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcc8c16489524c40b1a0b96d6d473a90\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Was Inland Revenue right that additional taxes on rental housing \u201Cwill put upward pressure on rents and may reduce the supply of new housing developments in the longer-term\u201D, and how much have average rents increased since the Government\u2019s interest deductibility changes were introduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022f67138f7d75340b7a25810097e84cdee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f67138f7d75340b7a25810097e84cdee\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Acting Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the Minister of Housing, the evidence does not suggest that the interest deductibility changes are the main causes of rent increases. A recently released report from the Treasury, the Reserve Bank, and the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development found that wage increases and the relative supply and demand of homes were instead the main driver of rents. Since the introduction of the new interest deductibility rules in October 2021, nationwide rent for new tenancies has increased by 5.9 percent to the end of July 2023. This is in line with the longer-term average and below the rate of general inflation. We know the way you get out of a housing crisis is by building more houses, not selling them like the previous Government used to do. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve ensured new builds are exempted from the interest limitation rules for a period of 20 years. Consents remain above pre-COVID levels and completions of new builds are at record highs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ac8f15efa9f49f097858aec8c3bb7d6\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How does she square those comments with the research conducted by the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, which actually asks landlords why they are increasing rents, for which the answer is: because of changes to interest deductibility legislation, introduced by her Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c8b92249dc42609cb1552c468a48c3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not the information we\u2019ve got from landlords\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d272c8ddc4184806970614ed4ade5887\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s your own document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1582805881d42cb877081d6960f4e43\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member is quoting something that is out of line with what we\u2019ve received and we don\u2019t agree with those comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022636fe9864e7d42d185b2189af974008a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen the comments of noted tax expert Dr Deborah Russell, who said that removing the ability for landlords to deduct interest costs is \u201Ca bad idea\u201D and \u201Csimply won\u2019t work\u201D, and does she agree?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3fbca44a48c4289829ac210fdcffbd0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Over 10 years ago, mate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bc176959708497da6d69da9b3cd8233\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yet another stupid question from that member. We all say things and we do things differently than 10 years ago. I mean, that member was a lobbyist for the tobacco companies 10 years ago, and now he\u2019s an honourable member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a473a4af0feb41d88b15a86ca4a67875\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Has she heard the comments from noted tax expert Dr Deborah Russell\u2014that her comments were 10 years ago when she said removing ability for landlords deduct interests costs \u201Cwould be an arbitrary rule designed to achieve a non-tax purpose\u201D, and what responsibility does she take for rents being up $175 a week in the last six years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f16068f9e2824fcb99fb08708455970a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: These questions are getting stupider and stupider. The member is talking about what someone said 10 years ago. We have a member here who totally supports what the Government are saying. He should look at what he was doing 10 years ago, which was advocating for the dirty, rotten tobacco companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7c705b0752b41f8b84fb8b0389bce94\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What is incorrect about the remarks of noted tax expert Dr Deborah Russell that removing the ability for landlords to deduct interest costs were an arbitrary rule designed to achieve a non-tax purpose, were a bad idea, and simply won\u2019t work; what is incorrect about the analysis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265926a2c2bb547a68e0fd7914e606737\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member can\u2019t get it through his thick head that the Minister was making those comments in a previous life\u201410 years ago. So get it through your thick head that this member here totally supports the Government, and we support Minister Russell, 100 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e02cd63045e1474a86eb060f80d921a7\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The question of time has nothing to do with the correctness of the answer. He could at least address the question, which was: what was incorrect about the quotation? Being old doesn\u2019t make it incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b9c0050c7bd495c9672a96a49eb5db6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll have to have a bit of think about that one, because there was a lot that the Hon Willie Jackson said. I\u2019m just trying to think whether it actually addressed the question or not. One of the problems, of course, was it was quite loud in here\u2014been many rulings about that, whether the Speaker can hear the question. I don\u2019t think it probably was, and I\u2019ll give the member the benefit of doubt. Mr Jackson, unhelpful to describe any question by a member in that way. I encourage the Minister to think carefully about the question. I\u2019ll ask Chris Bishop to ask it again. Answer the question, not comment on the quality of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222af924cadae448499ea687d9abdd9e5\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The question was\u2014paraphrasing slightly\u2014what was incorrect, or what is incorrect about the analysis of noted tax expert Dr Deborah Russell in her long blog post that explains that removing the ability for landlords to deduct interest costs is a bad idea, won\u2019t work, and is an arbitrary rule designed to achieve a non-tax purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab81ceebf4c64f1db29efaf662411b9c\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: In 2013, the Minister now\u2014who was not even a member of Parliament at the time\u2014was probably correct, because it was a different time. It was a different environment. Since then, we\u2019ve had to inherit a housing crisis. Times change, people change, jobs change. As I keep saying, this person here was advocating for the tobacco companies, advocating against the average New Zealander. He should hang his head in shame, but now he\u2019s an honourable member, some say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221de45632da674a09a0179c2dfec81f6f\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that since interest deductibility was limited, rents have gone up by less than the rate of general inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022199fe5eb030846b39ffdf55407eaf0c7\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: One hundred percent. Rents are below the general inflation rate and, in fact, things are so much better for renters under this Government. Under the previous Government, landlords would kick our people out\u2014Kiwis out\u2014just at a whim. Chris Bishop\u2019s mates\u2014these landlords, they had no time for the average Kiwi. Now we have warm homes. We look after people. You can\u2019t put rent up just at the drop of a hat, like Mr Luxon and his rich mates would do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c76104fb81e4fc0be121d66187a000d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That last comment was not helpful. I think I\u2019ll get you to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb7c23a8958e4ea7a20a492c8d7a3fc3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be0a4a6487094d3b8545ca01ec2edac9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022347dcf78742d45f9bbeff85664886d82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022347dcf78742d45f9bbeff85664886d82\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: How is the Government delivering more support for the victims of crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb6a96165b8c4a9ab3b47aa8a07c22f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb6a96165b8c4a9ab3b47aa8a07c22f7\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I introduced the Victims of Sexual Violence (Strengthening Legal Protections) Legislation Bill, which will, in the next phase of our work, support victims of crime. The bill addresses some important issues in the justice system, reducing the risk of child victims of sexual violence being asked about consent while in court, as well as increasing the maximum penalty for the offence of sexual connection with a child to 20 years\u2019 imprisonment, to align with other offences. The bill also gives adult victims of sexual violence greater say over name suppression for themselves, as well as the offender. This Government is delivering on our goal to improve the experience of victims in our justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a28c8fd910cc4bf9bf36f079913318bd\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: What other work is under way to address gaps in the justice system for victims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e356a70d86e4ae6a5e76a2021eefe27\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Just last month, three new pilot programmes got well under way. The first will help make sure victims\u2019 voices are heard when bail decisions are being made. The second pilot aims to improve the experience of child witnesses in sexual violence cases and provides training for support staff to work with them. The third pilot programme is focused on improving the coordination and safety planning for victims of serious crime. Victims have told us that there are some parts of the justice system that are not working for them. We have heard those concerns, and these pilots will make a real difference in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228839ff3649fa4230b4e677de13d6dbba\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: What financial support is now available for victims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc4457668726454a87fa213b1b926cb1\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Since we came into Government, we have tripled the amount of funding for the Victim Assistance Scheme and doubled the amount of funding for Victim Support. Our support for the Victim Assistance Scheme means an estimated 10,000 more grants are available for victims of serious crime, including increased financial support for homicide victims\u2019 families, counselling for victims of serious crime, and a new grant specific to victims of sexual violence. I\u2019m proud of our strong track record for supporting victims\u2014compared to the previous Government, which reduced funding in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b93dde1a013484fad8e8faea2535867\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: What other work is under way to support victims of crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b839496caea84dbdb565170164baf306\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: The bill introduced last week is part of the tranche of a three-year programme to transform victims\u2019 experience in the justice system. We passed the Sexual Violence Legislation Act and established Te Aorerekura to empower communities to fight back and reduce family violence. The work is under way to make further changes to prevent litigation abuse in Family Court proceedings. These are always practical changes that will make sure victims have a meaningful role in the decisions that directly affect them and their families. As a Government, we are committed to having a justice system where victims feel safe, heard, and empowered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f6e2476e7cf43b282fc81ff780398d8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Energy and Resources\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d37191c7cbb846278de129254b591793\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d37191c7cbb846278de129254b591793\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Does she stand by her reported statement in relation to the carbon price doubling or tripling that \u201Cthe financial consequences for families would be too harsh\u201D; if so, does she support further measures to directly assist households to decarbonise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022527e8abc3f014bf9946543e1c872f87d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022527e8abc3f014bf9946543e1c872f87d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Acting Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the Minister, yes and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34614cc766544e7a5f2bd5d5003c9d4\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that a gas heater has lifetime emissions of over 11,000 kilograms of carbon dioxide, is more expensive to run than a heat pump, and exacerbates childhood asthma; and if so, when will Warmer Kiwi Homes be expanded to include swapping out gas heating?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bfe5ff7cdd744a0881f50da1d3efbab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly accept that the particulate discharges from gas heaters\u2014particularly if it\u2019s not vented\u2014can be problematic, and that a heat pump is better. And I stand by the record of this Government, which is to deliver 100,000 insulation and heating retrofits through the Warmer Kiwi Homes programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283714b78016d4cbf8de931b0f7d22e21\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept Transpower\u2019s assessment that Aotearoa needs 13 percent solar generation to achieve a 100 percent renewable electricity target; if so, what is the Government doing to get more rooftops solar on homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237c2ab06f5364911902c936bc0ab7e04\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, yes, I accept that solar is part of the future. Most solar investments are likely to be in solar farms rather than on rooftops. Rooftop installations are most cost-effectively done at the time of building of houses, which is one of the reasons why the Government programme, in respect of State house builds, is incorporating some solar on roofs of new builds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c5ce24c0f8f4661a426af257f4f88dd\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she support the call from The Homes We Deserve coalition of over 160 organisations, to commit to a large-scale retrofit programme over the next nine years to reduce emissions and household bills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f14158b516541e197b0d26156668ce8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have no responsibility for other parties\u2019 or other groups\u2019 policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb91699fc7e74ee0ad9ce729159d9c2a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a656a050af7a40efacdd15f9cbeb5695\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a656a050af7a40efacdd15f9cbeb5695\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What recent announcements has she made regarding taking action to protect the Hauraki Gulf?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00221e428d573fad4f0ebc408b9d9f857144\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e428d573fad4f0ebc408b9d9f857144\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Prime Minister announced that we are taking a major step towards protecting the Hauraki Gulf for future generations through the Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill. This beautiful blue backyard is where Kiwis in the region have some of their best experiences. It\u2019s also essential and a traditional source of food, and a vital part of our economy for the tourism, transport, and seafood sectors, with a recent assessment putting the economic value of the gulf at $100 billion. However, we know that the gulf is under stress, and action is needed now. The Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill will see the implementation of 19 new protection areas that have been designed to represent and protect a range of crucial ecosystems in the region. They will be located across the inner and outer gulf, protecting a range of rare, ecologically important, and representative habitats and species. Through this action, we will nearly triple the area of Auckland\u2019s maritime area that is under the protection from just over 6 percent to about 18 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a80adb48608245808cecd106a55a43a1\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: How will these new marine protection areas work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f0549d45cbe467084155ea122f24dad\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: As I have noted, the Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana must be protected for the enjoyment of future generations. The way we will do this is threefold. Firstly, we are extending the country\u2019s first marine reserve, Cape Rodney-\u014Ck\u0101kari Point Marine Reserve\u2014or Goat Island\u2014and Whanganui-A-Hei (Cathedral Cove) Marine Reserve on the Coromandel Peninsula. Secondly, we will create 12 new high-protection areas to protect and restore marine ecosystems, while allowing for customary practices of tangata whenua. And, thirdly, the bill will allow for five new sea-floor protection areas to preserve sensitive sea-floor habitats by prohibiting bottom-contact fishing methods and other activities which harm the sea-floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a1cde57b2b04f44bc0767b12ec886f5\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: How are these marine protection areas developed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271be4a267869459fa8e32e91e5b15e73\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: The best way to protect the special marine ecosystem is to find conservation solutions which work for different people, and that\u2019s exactly what this action to revitalise the gulf does. The bill announced this week follows years of careful work and extensive consultation to strike a good balance. An important catalyst for change was the innovative endeavour the Sea Change - Tai Timu Tai Pari marine spatial plan. It was developed by a group that comprised tangata whenua, fishers, farmers, and environmental groups. Since then, the Department of Conservation and Fisheries New Zealand led several rounds of consultation with tangata whenua and key groups. During our final public consultation around the end of 2022, we had significant contributions from the community, with more than 7,500 submissions on the marine protection proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b698120c9d1430aad3ca222edde28a5\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What impact are the new marine protection areas anticipated to have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220be4ce09a83c4e55a66070549c69ba2a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: These new marine protection areas will protect at-risk ecologically valuable and representative habitats and ecosystems in the gulf to support their recovery. They will also increase our understanding of marine ecosystems within the gulf and the pressures on them, and support holistic management. Just two examples of protection that these areas will provide include one of the last and possibly best remnant seagrass meadows found in the Hauraki Gulf, as well as a more comprehensive protection for rock lobster, which are considered functionally extinct in the gulf, through the marine reserve extensions. This week is Conservation Week and the theme is relevant to this kaupapa: take action for nature. So as the Government moves to do just that in the Hauraki Gulf, I also take this opportunity to encourage everyone to get involved: Conservation Week is to improve the environment and their own wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222fbbbef4bfe64096a9cdd36a0ec73eb4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022364011ffda3a4f7287ac7de732ecd962\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022364011ffda3a4f7287ac7de732ecd962\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How many of the 24 initiatives in the 2023 winter plan have resulted in patients actually being treated, and what evidence, if any, does she have that the plan has reduced pressure on hospital emergency departments (EDs)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f77f19e162a54d63989529a688794342\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f77f19e162a54d63989529a688794342\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E This year, a comprehensive winter plan was put in place to ease pressure on the whole health system. As that member is aware, the plan included new pathways to treatment as well as actions across the system to better manage acute demand, including expediting needs assessments, vaccination, data, and staffing projects. Of the interventions that are new treatment pathways, I am advised there have been 50,000 free consultations in pharmacies with a minor health condition scheme; over 20,000 calls diverted to the clinical telehealth service since December 2022 by eligible practices for overflow and after-hours support, with more eligible services signing up. The clinical telehealth service pilot for ambulance staff has seen over 1,200 patients nationally treated in the community, and avoiding a trip to the emergency departments since the start of the year. In answer to the second part of the question, I am certain the plan reduced pressure on emergency rooms\u2014had we not vaccinated over 1.2 million people for influenza, over 600,000 people for COVID, or over 340,000 children for their routine immunisations. Although we are almost through the winter, it is not finished yet and a full and comprehensive evaluation of the winter plan and its impact on the system will happen once winter is over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d38b7f051945b68121633e9959fba6\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I didn\u2019t ask how many people had participated in any number of initiatives. My primary question on notice asked, \u201CHow many of the 24 initiatives in the 2023 winter plan have resulted in patients actually being [seen]\u201D? \u201CHow many of the 24 initiatives\u201D was my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f59a46965b3c44e39c05395c5a613fc9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. I\u2019m not an expert in this area, but I did hear three distinct areas. Maybe the\u2014[Interruption] Who was that? I\u2019m trying to do a ruling. It\u2019s really unhelpful, people interrupting. Maybe the Minister can help me in making that discern, but I thought I heard you mention three of those initiatives. Am I right or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253bd451797c472cacd8872c013da0a6\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr, Speaker, yes. I did name three, but the answer would be 11 of the initiatives treat people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e4ba495856447af9670e91f5bc78082\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: What specific actions is she taking to ensure that Oamaru ED will not have to close for a fourth time this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218717bf2dbbb41349ca4e23ab664523d\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Those contingencies are managed by local clinicians, and it is important that those plans are in place to make sure that patients are looked after when staffing levels are low. Te Whatu Ora has taken responsibility for increasing the resourcing that was previously provided to the district health board to make it more able to face these challenges, and works in the longer term with that centre\u2014and the trust that owns it\u2014in order to address the staffing challenges it faces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0d9b5ce84024a4e9f6db29200559c92\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: How many people have been diverted to other hospitals because Oamaru ED has been closed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272e63489edf64d9e9cb8c701eb83784e\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very precise question. That does occasionally happen, and it is not ideal but it is important that when that decision is necessary, clinicians are supported to make it to take care of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e06be55b33940e0be7fe36957e7265c\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Have any patients been diverted to other hospitals because Oamaru ED has been closed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a15c06137e04c8ea92f8548d88c6063\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that patients were referred both in advance of the change and during the time when staffing levels were low.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201bd06a13c404974aee7cd7694c9d575\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she unable to report ED wait time data until two weeks after the election, given it has been previously reported monthly for decades?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221784673e67394734971fd8810c9ab5f0\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is not me who reports ED wait time data. Te Whatu Ora has a responsibility to do that. They have written a very long report on the appropriate process for doing so, and if that member wants accurate information, the processes that are outlined in that report need to be followed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3f31d5f45c045808d9d1c2372b22901\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00221d6e1e6c79904b888fa3c270e5f1ae46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d6e1e6c79904b888fa3c270e5f1ae46\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does she agree that the Relationships and Sexuality Education: A Guide for Teachers, Leaders, and Boards of Trustees resource produced by the Ministry of Education \u201Cmust\u201D be included in teaching programmes for years 1 to 8 children, and that \u201Cthe school does not need to seek parents\u2019 or caregivers\u2019 permission for \u0101konga to participate in the programme\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022c708c99acdac4cb8900a303fc7c2b402\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c708c99acdac4cb8900a303fc7c2b402\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Within the New Zealand curriculum, health and physical education, which includes relationships and sexuality, must be taught. However, the document the member refers to is a guide and not a requirement. Under the Education and Training Act 2020, schools have a legal obligation to consult with their communities at least every two years about their local health curriculum. Under the Act, parents and caregivers still have the right to withdraw their child from relationships and sexuality education by written requests to the school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229106097ab0314c69b26817cf8173ca23\u0022\u003EChris Baillie\u003C/span\u003E: What should a parent do if they don\u2019t want teachers talking to their children about gender identity and gender diversity, given that the guidelines suggest the curriculum programmes could be integrated into English, science, technology, maths and statistics, languages, and social sciences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ce9913af8b04b5cba10828df72e24cc\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I have just said in my primary answer that they should write to the school. But I will actually read here what it does say about the suggested learning intentions\u2014that in that guide it says it can be taught across the curriculum. In English, for example, it could explore and critique the representation of gender roles and relationships in text. Therefore, it could look at gender stereotyping\u2014for example, women going to the supermarket all the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b831d594fd540349168778814e6338c\u0022\u003EChris Baillie\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that parents should have greater involvement over the delivery of relationship and sexuality education in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022136922aa0ba34de38de39e036f795ad2\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I will refer to my primary answer. Can I read the part from those guidelines where it says schools, teachers, and parents or caregivers have some particular rights and responsibilities around requests for children to be withdrawn from aspects of the sexuality programme responding to children\u2019s questions on sensitive issues. Firstly, the way that this happens is that schools must legally consult with their school community on what they are planning to teach in their local health curriculum. The school board of trustees then decides what the curriculum will be, taking into consideration the consultation from the community and the professional guidelines provided by the ministry. The school does not have to seek further consultation or permission from parents at this stage. However, if parents wish to remove their child from this part of the curriculum, they can do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229742d18511e14634965cf5423a41ec22\u0022\u003EChris Baillie\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why enabling year 1 to 8 children to \u201Cinterrogate the ongoing effects of colonisation\u201D is relevant to relationship and sexuality education for five- to 12-year-olds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d32aa45e348e4804bd9c67c0bea2c012\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: The guidelines the member is referring to have been developed by experts. What I will say is that, as a teacher, I know, from being a teacher, that when you put learning into the context of the learner, the educational outcomes are more powerful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c791960b8249c18f025136f6c88e97\u0022\u003EChris Baillie\u003C/span\u003E: What teacher professional development has been provided to teach relationships and sexuality education, or can anyone do it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b62bd65b1390416c987c969e08929d90\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Professional learning and development is part of the contract system. When a school decides that that is what they want to focus on, they will make those applications to the Ministry of Education or they will contract those private providers themselves. But it\u2019s up to the school to determine where their strengths lie and also where their weaknesses lie, and what professional development they need as a school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c7a059378284080a621e77a7b98ec90\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ae0b3c0de9b4ed8be4e4244896b9562\u0022\u003EMigrant Exploitation\u2014Auckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002257abd87c43b849b2a9d1c6d569034381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257abd87c43b849b2a9d1c6d569034381\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I have received a letter from Erica Stanford seeking to debate, under Standing Order 399, a recent case of migrant exploitation that was reported last night in Auckland. An urgent debate is a way of holding the Government accountable for an action for which it is responsible\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 200/4. The application does not disclose any Government action on the matter. Indeed, it notes that the Government has made no formal statements in relation to these events. The application is therefore declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e7c62ee2b924b478755a1be2237f9fa\u0022\u003EEstimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022866cc82dd20744f78ba06b619e486b82\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000209\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 3 August on the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229b8d1e0cadeb41f783bd0e7207ffd723\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b8d1e0cadeb41f783bd0e7207ffd723\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members\u2014quietly, please\u2014the House is in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. The Business Committee has determined to organise the debate by portfolio so there\u2019ll be no sector specific debates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAll Votes are available for debate but only specific Ministers will be available each day to speak to the indicated portfolios only. The Government has indicated that the Minister of Local Government, the Minister of Justice, and the Minister of Transport will be available today. I understand that the relevant select committee chairpersons have indicated they do not wish to take calls to commence the debates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThis debate expires after 11 hours, at which point questions will be put that the Vote stand part of the Schedules and on the provisions of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. There are two hours 29 minutes remaining in this debate. New Zealand Labour has 30 minutes remaining; New Zealand National has one hour 20 minutes remaining; ACT New Zealand has 22 minutes remaining; the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has 13 minutes remaining; Te Paati M\u0101ori has 11 minutes remaining; Dr Elizabeth Kerekere has six minutes remaining; the Hon Meka Whaitiri has six minutes remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe Estimates debate should be relevant to the Government\u2019s current spending plans as contained in the Estimates of appropriations. A compendium of the reports of select committees on the Votes is available on the Table. The committee will be suspending at 5 p.m. for valedictory statements and will be sitting again after the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question, once again, is that the Votes contained in the Estimates of appropriation for 2023/24 stand part of the Schedules. We start with the Minister of Local Government. The Minister is available from 3 p.m. till 4 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282500b972b8640c0b37bb132f4e4d43a\u0022\u003ELocal Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb963ead1e464242afe6cad4f0adc070\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb963ead1e464242afe6cad4f0adc070\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. On the basis that the Labour Party only has 30 minutes remaining of the 2 hours and 29 minutes, I intend to signal to the House that how I\u2019ll approach the hour that we\u2019ve got is that I\u2019ll let some questions build up and then answer them all in one go to try and be a little bit more efficient with time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022db5f64304d4e411fa8d7cf617315f400\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db5f64304d4e411fa8d7cf617315f400\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and I acknowledge the Minister has run out of steam already, but that\u2019s not a problem at all. We will maximise this opportunity just to remind the Minister in regards to potentially some of the areas that he can ponder over answers. But it is clear that a number of these questions won\u2019t have answers because a number of the decisions have been made in circumstances which sort of beggar a little bit of belief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut I want to firstly question the Minister in regards to the three waters reform and, in particular, ask whether he stands by the degree of consulting and contractor spend that has been undertaken on what has been, without doubt, a woeful example of a Government reform programme. I acknowledge that the Minister has had a hospital pass from the prior Minister of Local Government the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, and there is an element that, potentially, I feel sorry for him in that circumstance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut the degree of consultancy expenditure is in the region of around $30 million, with $600,000 spent on PR from Senate Communications. If we remember back on those failed ads that had green slime coming out of the taps and that expenditure, nearly $3 million was spent on an advertising company, FCB, in order to put together that advertising campaign that had green slime coming out of water taps\u2014hard-earned taxpayers\u2019 money. The question to the Minister is: does he believe that that was appropriate Government expenditure and not wasteful spending, taking into account that that communication programme\u2014as the prior Minister of Local Government articulated\u2014was a failed campaign in regards to information that did not convey the reality for many communities across this country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhat about the $1.27 million that was spent on the Scottish water authority to provide advisory into the numbers which underpin this Government\u2019s three waters reform programme? Remember that number that the Prime Minister refers to\u2014the $185 billion of capital? Well, those numbers have been debunked by a large number of people across this country, including mayors and councillors, who, with respect, I think would know more about their local government infrastructure than a couple of bureaucrats out of Scotland. Again, $1.27 million of Government expenditure was thrown up against that water agency for consultancy spend as part of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy second area of questioning is in regards to the forecasted nearly $3 billion\u2014$3\u00A0billion\u2014of establishment costs for this three waters reform. Don\u2019t forget that that\u2019s up $1 billion from what was originally forecast, at nearly $280,000 per day\u2014$280,000 per day\u2014of establishment costs for a reform which none of the local government bodies, from the outset, thought was actually going to really deliver fundamental change and improvements. What an absolute waste of money. I appreciate that the Minister is out of time, but he\u2019s probably lucky that he\u2019s out of time, with respect, because trying to come up with an answer that is all credible for why that is not wasteful spending is beyond us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe appreciate that a number of bills still proceeding through this House relate to the changing of the number of entities, remembering that this was set out when we went through the first three waters reform programme. We said that absolutely this could not be done with no less than four mega-bureaucratic entities\u2014remember that? Remember that Minister Mahuta came up and said, \u201CNo way, we\u2019ve done all the analysis; no way this will ever work without dropping it down to four.\u201D Well, what happened? After the grand reset by this Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517e080c241f48eeaa124e8af5d04d72\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: The policy bonfire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222936e56ed6eb43468b7d0b980a71112c\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: The policy bonfire, and what a bonfire\u2014I think there was a bit too much petrol thrown on the bonfire, and a few people on the other side got their fingers burnt, didn\u2019t they, through throwing a little too much dry kindling on to that fire. But that policy bonfire came up with \u201COh no, let\u2019s change four to 10 entities.\u201D, but they didn\u2019t change any of the underlying structural elements around the fact that they were still cogoverned mega-bureaucratic entities that are not based on democratically elected principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I want to give the Minister the opportunity to potentially just say, \u201CHey, actually, do you know what? With only three sitting weeks left of this Parliament, maybe we made a mistake.\u201D Here\u2019s an opportunity, right? Here\u2019s an opportunity, because the problem with this election is that this topic will be\u2014there\u2019s a very clear difference between the two political parties on this. So, in effect, the outcome of the election will be a mandate from the New Zealand public in regards to this. So my third question to the Minister is in regards to whether the new proposal of 10 entities is still something that the Minister believes is going to be appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other area of questioning that we went through as part of the reviews was in regards to the IT expenditure projects. I tell you, for anyone who has looked at Government IT programmes, they generally don\u2019t go too well, do they? But in order to ensure that this Government\u2019s IT programme in regards to three waters is as credible as it could be, it decided to not undertake a proper procurement process, of course\u2014right? So what better way to provide integrity and assurance would you have than if you didn\u2019t undertake a proper procurement process, and that would be OK if the numbers were potentially reasonably immaterial, but guess what? Guess how much the numbers were in regards to the IT programme? I don\u2019t know\u2014throw some numbers out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a02eb1857438498088678370b2bce5ba\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: I bet they\u2019re big. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b60c1598343477da72c2a1883893cdd\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: How much\u2014big numbers, yeah. I mean, a couple of hundred million, maybe\u2014maybe that. Maybe $530 million, or maybe half a billion dollars of expenditure on the ICT programme? It was $530 million for this ICT investment programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m asking the Minister clearly: does he stand by the fact that the officials have undertaken a procurement programme for ICT relating to three waters that did not go through a proper procurement programme, for $530 million of taxpayer money? No competitive process, no looking at options internationally, no looking at different systems, and no looking at alternative ways in which we should spend that money. No, just choosing a single supplier, signing a deal, and going ahead. Interestingly, that product that was selected is the same product that is used by one of the largest water companies in the country, and I\u2019m sure that all of the process was appropriate, but the Minister needs to articulate that there was integrity in regards to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect, while we\u2019ve got a little bit of time, is for the Minister to provide a little bit of comment around the chief executive officer roles that were appointed to manage these entities. Remember, we had four entities originally and we hired the CEOs. It\u2019s come out that these CEOs are on salaries in the region of $600,000 to around about $800,000 per annum, per person. Well, let\u2019s talk about a cost of living crisis, right? Let\u2019s talk about a cost of living crisis. But the Minister has obviously been quite comfortable that we\u2019ve got, initially, four CEOs on that, but, of course, with the change from four entities to 10, one doesn\u2019t have to be too au fait on the mathematics to work out that that, potentially, is going to mean that we might have up to 10 of these CEOs across the country on between $600,000 and $800,000 per annum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I want the Minister to articulate and provide assurance to this committee\u2014and to Kiwis out there watching this\u2014whether this is value for money. What are going to be the additional outcomes in value that this will create by paying chief executive officers for 10 entities across this country, and all of the peripheral\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c8de368bab474687047f66c3a23472\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019ll be welcoming parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fdcfffce1ac40439227c0eb7c19fc45\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: There probably will be welcoming parties, I say to the Hon Scott Simpson. I wonder if they will spend around $40,000 on welcoming parties for each of them, because that would be another $400k that would go on top of that as well. Maybe the Minister could give us a little bit of an answer on whether he\u2019s going to rule that out and say that there won\u2019t be any welcoming parties for these 10 CEOs when they assume their positions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOf course, the legislation doesn\u2019t kick in until mid-2026. Just for the record, we\u2019re in 2023 right now, so that\u2019s a little way into the future. But, interestingly, these CEOs are already on those salaries, and they haven\u2019t even started. They don\u2019t start work for three years, but they\u2019re already getting paid that accrual as money. So, again, can the Minister articulate whether that is value for money? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe last aspect is, in retrospect, in regards to all the challenges that local government faces across this country\u2014the workforce shortages, the critical pressure that our local communities and local government are under\u2014is it still appropriate that the Government is pushing through such wide-scale reform and ripping the heart out of local government by confiscating their assets and putting them into undemocratically elected entities? I ask whether that is still appropriate or, actually, should we just restore local ownership and control of water assets and ensure that our local communities are empowered to do what they should do in regards to three waters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002252d23cbcc5d84a6cb635b1a468651e87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252d23cbcc5d84a6cb635b1a468651e87\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT): \u003C/span\u003EThank you, Mr Chair. Questions for the Minister: will the forecast establishment cost for the three waters entities, projected to increase from $2\u00A0billion to $3 billion now, deliver any additional waste water, stormwater or drinking water infrastructure? If not, what value, if any, will taxpayers and ratepayers get for the additional billion dollars that this Government now proposes to spend on three waters reforms? Minister, please note that one down in your notebook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESecondly, has the Minister asked the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) to identify where any savings might be made to reduce the $3 billion cost that is going to land on taxpayers, ratepayers, or water users just for setting up these entities, and, if so, if you ask the DIA for savings, what savings did they offer? Another question: how is it acceptable that the Department of Internal Affairs continues to pay between $602,500 and $815,500\u2014the salary banding that applies to the three civil servants hired by the DIA as chief executives of the three water entities\u2014even though those water entities are disestablished by the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill, which is on the order paper today, meaning they\u2019ll be disestablished today or tomorrow at the latest. How is it acceptable that the DIA intends to continue paying them?\u2014which was your response to my written question. Are there any other Civil Service chief executives who continue to be paid for a role that no longer exists? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just the ACT Party that wants to know; every single taxpayer in New Zealand wants to know. How is it acceptable that the Department of Internal Affairs hired recruitment consultants at a cost of $500,000 to recruit these CEOs\u2014four CEOs for four water service entities, three of whom whose roles will soon be redundant. Half a million bucks to recruit them, and will the department ask the recruiters to help find them another job when they\u2019re made redundant by the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill when it passes today or tomorrow? Will these same recruiters be asked to help shuffle these people along?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EA final question from the ACT Party on behalf of all of the consumers and taxpayers in New Zealand: has the Department of Internal Affairs ever ended the employment of any staff as a result of their roles becoming redundant and, if so, will the department act to save taxpayers money by terminating the three chief executives who\u2019ve been hired for three water service entities which won\u2019t exist after today or tomorrow when the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill is passed? The Government\u2019s going to disestablish their roles; will the DIA make them redundant, and if not, Minister, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddf9f990a57f4b74999d08eab51d96e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddf9f990a57f4b74999d08eab51d96e0\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to the discussion about local government and I\u2019d like to do so in a number of different areas. But perhaps starting with its relationship to the cyclone recovery, I acknowledge that there is a separate Minister for Cyclone Recovery, but the matters that I\u2019d like to raise with the Minister relate to that very important relationship between central and local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ENoticing that the Government\u2014by which I mean central government\u2014has touted a locally led, centrally supported recovery, and of course noting that the Minister himself also has a particular role as a ministerial lead within a particular region\u2014and I reiterate, for the committee, that National will be supportive of any efforts that the Government makes that we think are positive changes for those who have been displaced by Cyclone Gabrielle\u2014I note that the six-month mark from the time of that disaster has recently passed and I acknowledge all those who have found themselves in difficult circumstances, and indeed those who lost their life in some cases and certainly were endangered and lost much property and personal possessions that are dear to them, and so forth, in the events of 14\u00A0February and around that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy questions for the Minister will revolve around seeking to understand from him\u2014and I acknowledge he has limited time available to deliver a response, but the question is whether the model of a locally led and centrally supported response or recovery has been effective. It has been effective, it seems to me, in some ways, but in other ways not so much. And while at the theoretical level we in the National Party agree that local input is hugely important, indeed vital, nevertheless it is the case that central support must be provided in order for that to be delivered meaningfully. And I think it\u2019s fair to say that in certain key respects we haven\u2019t had meaningful delivery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ECertainly, visiting Muriwai within my own electorate of Kaipara ki Mahurangi yesterday morning, I was taken to view a number of badly damaged homes. In fact, it\u2019s probably an exaggeration now to call them homes, except that\u2019s where the lives were being made of these people who have been displaced. They are certainly not habitable now. In some cases there were large trees and mudslides through them; the cliff had come down on that fateful night. It\u2019s obvious to anyone with a civil engineering degree, or not\u2014and certainly I\u2019m no expert in these matters from a technical perspective\u2014to see that these houses are not habitable now, in some cases. I\u2019m not referring to all, obviously, but the ones that are not are very obviously not, and those should have been designated for the buy-out regime much sooner than the six-month mark; they still don\u2019t have that. So I put it to the Minister that the locally led, centrally supported notion was a valuable one and a worthwhile one but it\u2019s only been as successful as the extent to which central support has been provided; in too many ways it has not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOne of the problems that we\u2019ve seen in the relationship between Wellington and these respective local governments is that the mayors and the councillors, and indeed even those who live within these regions, appear reticent to criticise or to ask for more, even from the Government, because to do so would be to bite the hand that feeds them. They are crucially dependent on the largesse of the Beehive. Noting the disparity between ratepayer versus taxpayer bases, you know, the large scale of assets at play and differing revenue streams mean that, actually, there\u2019s a power imbalance between local and central government. Now, that\u2019s historic. That\u2019s not something that\u2019s occurred only recently in relation to cyclone recovery. It\u2019s been the case for many years; it\u2019s not a particular thing that\u2019s arisen over the course of the last two terms, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t make any political partisan point in relation to that, but I do point it out because it\u2019s relevant background to understanding that, because local government is so dependent on central government playing a part in a situation such as this, we do need to acknowledge the assistance that local government needs, the support, indeed, that it needs in order to achieve things in relation to cyclone recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe cost-sharing arrangements that the Government announced it would reach with local councils in affected areas is a major topic of contention and, if I\u2019m allowed additional time, Mr Chair, then I\u2019ll point out that it is only in the case of one region, namely Hawke\u2019s Bay area councils, that a cost-sharing arrangement has been agreed. So Wellington is yet to reach equivalent agreements with others. My current understanding\u2014and if there\u2019s an update in this then I\u2019ll thank the Minister; I\u2019ll be grateful to hear from him that others have been concluded\u2014is that while we have heard for some time now that it is close to hearing an agreement between itself and the Tair\u0101whiti region, nevertheless such an arrangement has not yet been made. Likewise with Auckland Council jurisdiction with large areas of West Auckland and the north-west that remain totally in limbo in the absence of a cost-sharing agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAlso lacking, for the benefit of the Minister, is an understanding\u2014whether from local government or central government or between them\u2014as to when buy-outs of irreparably damaged homes, category three homes, as we say, will actually take place. We\u2019ve heard good intentions in this regard from the Minister and we support those intentions, but unless and until those become reality, that\u2019s not much consolation to those who have been displaced. We don\u2019t know when we will know, we don\u2019t know when the buy-outs will take effect. I think it\u2019s a reasonable hope and expectation that these might take place before Christmas. There\u2019s an emotional attachment, I suppose, and an impetus for people to feel as though by Christmas-time\u2014that special time of the year, in many ways\u2014people will know better what life will lie ahead for them in the following year. But, nevertheless, they don\u2019t now and we face the prospect of, regardless of who is in Government following mid-October and regardless of the shape of that, that whoever is responsible for implementing such a buy-out regime will be left with too little time to achieve that before Christmas and that would be a real shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ETo think that the country\u2019s Civil Service, and private sector too, for that matter, will close down for a month or so as is customary over the summer break, and what a fine tradition it is too, nevertheless, that will be bittersweet for those who have more time cooling their heels outside the suburb in which they have lived, outside the communities in which they have connections, and without the emotional and financial certainty of their situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnd an example of the problem is that there are people who are living away from their homes at the moment, they\u2019ve been displaced, they\u2019ve entered into rental agreements for a certain period of time because at the point that they were displaced they\u2019ve tried to find anywhere that they can to keep a roof over their head. They don\u2019t know how long to enter into those\u2014they don\u2019t know how much of a renewal they should seek. They\u2019re in precarious financial circumstances. Now, I will acknowledge\u2014and I give credit to the Government for this\u2014recently there was an announcement that there would be some accommodation support that would allow those who are in that situation to gain some support from central government. So again, just to emphasise, we welcome that as far as it goes. However, the bigger picture is that people need the certainty of what\u2019s happening with their situation more substantively so that they\u2019re not relying on the Government to prop them up on a temporary basis month by month, or six month by six month, or year by year in the case of tenancy agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWhile we\u2019re talking about it, it\u2019s also the case that the scheme took some weeks to come into effect. So for people who were left in that limbo, who were really already struggling and didn\u2019t have good circumstances in terms of their living situation, they had to actually wait for quite some time until they could be eligible for that. And even then there were all kinds of complications that have been the result of central government rules as to be applied either through central government departments or in conjunction with local government. And one of them, it seems to be, and we\u2019re trying to unpick this puzzle now, is actually that it appears that if you own your home\u2014your family home\u2014in a trust, that you won\u2019t actually be eligible to gain such accommodation assistance. That seems to be extraordinary because there are many reasons that a person might own a home in a trust. For example, to protect against creditors relevant to a professional situation. It might be some legitimate family reason that\u2019s not for avoiding or, let alone, evading tax, and yet these people are disqualified and that seems to me quite wrong. It\u2019s a theme I might be able to pick up in a future contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00225f5a9dbf84b1451db48f5f5df4023c3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f5a9dbf84b1451db48f5f5df4023c3c\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019ve been taking notes throughout, so I\u2019ll run through them. To Mr Watts\u2019 first question. There were two parts; neither are relevant to the Estimates. To the second question: it\u2019s an estimate only and isn\u2019t appropriated for within the estimates. To the third question: yes. To the fourth question: yes. To the fifth question: CEO roles will be sized appropriately to the size and scale of the entity. And to the sixth question: yes, and the reason I say that is because the Government can and has always been able to demonstrate that our plan will save ratepayers\u2019 money. The member\u2019s party\u2019s plan, such that it is, cannot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ETo Simon Court\u2019s question, the first one: yes. The second one: the increase is offset by the removal of tranche two of the Better Off funding, $1 billion of which was due to be funded by the entities. The third and fourth questions are not actually a matter for the Estimates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to Mr Penk\u2019s questions, I have a lot of sympathy for those questions and genuinely would like to engage in that discussion. However, I\u2019m in a difficult spot where, in so far as I\u2019m Minister of Local Government, my responsibility doesn\u2019t go that far. I\u2019ve gone through the Estimates documents and looked at it. Definitely there\u2019s funding that\u2019s come through these Estimates around the seven regional recovery organisations across all the affected regions, including those that he\u2019s mentioned, and of course funding for local government around support for flood mitigation etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt is true that I am the Minister responsible for the recovery in Hawke\u2019s Bay, the Tararua district, and the Wairarapa, but in so far\u2014and I would love to have that yarn, but I\u2019m limited in this debate. But I would say that I acknowledge the concerns that the member\u2019s raised. They are concerns that I share also as the Minister responsible for Hawke\u2019s Bay, which is the most affected but also the most advanced. It has been an incredibly complex process, but I do want to acknowledge the five councils in Hawke\u2019s Bay for showing the leadership that they have and for getting to the point that they have at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b04d89b4257e430a9d58d3330acb86ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b04d89b4257e430a9d58d3330acb86ba\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I hope these questions do relate to the Estimates. There\u2019s a budget of $605 million for the Minister of Local Government, and there\u2019s quite a chunk of money across various appropriations that are for the water services reform. There were a number of questions that the Governance and Administration Committee asked of the department, including some of the risks around key deliverables for the whole reform programme over the next 12 months. The response was that, yes, the costs of transition\u2014such as key personnel and establishment boards\u2014would be covered, and the like. But one of the answers said that there was no intention to undertake a performance assessment prior to the completion of the project, the reform programme; there would be a post-implementation review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EGiven the large amount of money in Vote Internal Affairs, and the local government portion of that that is going to the reform, why isn\u2019t there a performance assessment being done prior to the completion? What assurance can the Minister give that there is appropriate scrutiny of expenditure? And are the questions that have been posed by the National member about the cost of the ICT system and the system of record correct or not? Because questions that were asked to the department about providing an update on the systems and record implementation business case and when it was expected to be presented to the Minister weren\u2019t answered with any level of detail. The department is apparently working through a revised work programme, but that ICT system will be expensive. So when does the Minister expect to receive it and how much is it likely to cost out of the Minister\u2019s Vote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00229ad5ac07db8446f48e6251e476ddb3dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ad5ac07db8446f48e6251e476ddb3dc\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her question. The response she received is obviously directly from the department. I will follow up, personally, and get an answer to her directly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e88ed785703c4adea4e064ecc27d5421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e88ed785703c4adea4e064ecc27d5421\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Minister, for those responses. Just following on from my colleague, Chris Penk, in regards to the implications of categorisation of some of the homes in my local electorate of the North Shore\u2014and particularly Milford, located on the back of the Milford stream, which was one of the significant outflows following the Auckland floods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe responsibility for categorisation of the impacted homes is on local government\u2014in particular Auckland Council\u2014and yet some six months on, my community and many communities surrounding that are still waiting for that categorisation process to be completed. That obviously has a significant implication in regards to the pressure that falls upon those families and individuals that continue to live with their properties backing on to that stream, and the continuing concerns around a large number of individuals: I think about the Parklane retirement home that is in Sunnynook and Forrest Hill areas of my community of which nearly 40 homes within that\u2014and this is a retirement village\u2014those homes are completely uninhabitable and the residents are still not able to go into their homes nearly six months later. Yet, the responsibility around categorisation does fall upon local government. The irony here is that when we\u2019ve got a funding model\u2014and acknowledging that the Auckland funding model isn\u2019t public, but if you use the precedent of the agreement of 50:50 funding that has been reached in other jurisdictions outside of Auckland, then when council has responsibility to actually categorise and the categorisation leads to a fiscal consequence on them as a council, surely you can see the logic that there is a conflict of interest in regards to that decision-making process, that adversely will impact residents within the local community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo as Minister of Local Government, I am seeking clarity and assurance around why this process is taking so long. Christchurch took about 120 days for that categorisation process to be undertaken, on a scale which was significant, and acknowledging this is broad, but the number of homes is known\u2014the number and the location of those\u2014and yet we have not seen any significant tangible progress on that, nor, actually, clarity in regards to a timeline of when that will occur. So acknowledging the current state is people still don\u2019t know the answer, they don\u2019t even have the certainty of when that question will be answered, and that obviously is completely unacceptable, and many of those within my community continue to worry about when the next heavy rain will come, because no tangible feedback has been received from local government in regards to the lessons learnt from that flood. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhat did the reviews find as a result of what caused the implications, and as a result of the findings of those reviews by local government? What actions, if any, have been taken to mitigate this from happening again? Those are all questions, six months on, that remain unanswered, and I do see it as the role of the Minister of Local Government to be ensuring that we have got a process of transparency in that regard, and I\u2019ll be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments in regards to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI want to go back to the three waters legislation. I note that the Minister said that my question around consultancy expenditure was out of scope; well, I challenge that. I do see that during the period in which we are discussing today there is a large number of consultancy expenditure that has been incurred within the period; to say that that is not relevant is an interesting opinion, but not one that I share. The questions I have in regards to the aspects of the three waters legislation are around the Te Mana o te Wai statements, and this is a principle that has been in place for a long time. The Minister has been on record to say that actually the Te Mana o te Wai statements\u2014which is a new construct under the water services legislation which basically provides requirements for the regional representative groups that must take into account feedback within those statements\u2014still remains. And while the community priority statements have been brought into play in regards to mitigating some of this issue, the community priority statements have been embedded to potentially provide another basis for other stakeholders to input into that process. The consideration around those priority statements is that they \u201Cmay\u201D be considered versus \u201Cmust\u201D, and there is obviously a key point of difference there. And I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s comments in regards to the difference between the Mana o te Wai principle, and then the subsequent construct of the Te Mana o te Wai statement, which did not exist prior to this Government\u2019s three waters legislation, and it is the basis of a large amount of question and concern by members of this community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in the Minister providing comment in regards to when the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, the prior Minister of Local Government, called that the three waters reform was an arrangement that was \u201Cco-governance\u201D, and then subsequently, the Prime Minister Chris Hipkins was quoted as saying \u201Cco-governance\u201D never existed in any of Labour\u2019s three waters reform. Well, there\u2019s a slight conflict around views there. I\u2019m interested in whether the Minister stands by the Prime Minister in regards to saying \u201Cco-governance\u201D never existed in Labour\u2019s three waters reforms, or the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, who was very clear that those labels were \u201Cco-governance\u201D. And let\u2019s just remind those considering around that: the regional representative groups still have a dedicated number of seats within those governance entities, or those entities that are dedicated only for iwi M\u0101ori, and a number of seats that are only allocated to territorial authorities\u2014and actually, an equal weighting, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s referred to as \u201C50:50 co-governance\u201D, so I\u2019m interested in what the Minister\u2019s comments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8b4131734e84547b0cac3c83e343971\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Watts, you will show us the context of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022ced06f904cd44aab9931a749f984307c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ced06f904cd44aab9931a749f984307c\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, you made the statement, in response to my question, that the $1 billion in additional costs for the three waters transition won\u2019t be borne by taxpayers or ratepayers or the entities because it\u2019s been offset by the Government cancelling the billion or more in Better Off funding that it offered to councils in recognition of all the additional costs they\u2019re going to face as a result of this transition; in particular, the costs in back office, retaining staff, overheads, Minister\u2014not to mention the fact that many councils like Whang\u0101rei District Council, for example, their water assets and revenues are cash-flow positive, Minister, which means that by taking their assets off them and the revenues they\u2019re going to be worse off. So, Minister, the Better Off funding is still needed by councils even though this Government has withdrawn it. So, Minister, is there any opportunity in the provisions made in this year\u2019s Estimates to recompense those councils who are having their assets taken off them without compensation\u2014expropriated\u2014who will suffer these additional costs that the Better Off funding was supposed to compensate them for? Minister, is there anything in these Estimates, in this provision, which will compensate them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESecond question, Minister, in your role, being responsible for local government, for councils such as Wellington City Council\u2014Wellington City Council is going ahead with the Golden Mile improvements project, which is nothing more than a mass demolition of Lambton Quay that\u2019s going to last for two or three years in terms of construction and all of the other impacts that will have on businesses. Now, the project aims to remove Ubers, private cars, taxis from Lambton Quay, spend $140 million of ratepayer and taxpayer money\u2014probably more, because you can\u2019t trust a cost estimate delivered by this Government\u2014and the overwhelming majority of Wellington businesses, retailers, property owners, delivery drivers, taxi drivers, Uber drivers, anyone who has to access the Golden Mile is opposed to this project, Minister. So does the Minister have confidence in Wellington City Council delivering and proceeding with this project with no backing from those affected, and, if so, why? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00228cc612429d4f4606b4878ef006434257\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cc612429d4f4606b4878ef006434257\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Chair. It might be useful to the previous two members to point out that this is an Estimates debate. And so when I respond and say that questions were out of scope and not relevant to the Estimates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022771c6e45661748329231cbc49efee655\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order. The Minister can answer the question and point that out in his answer. Other than that, it will be for the Chair to decide what is relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022689c033760d4442f8350ff721f8b0a4a\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Fair enough, Mr Chair. However, I do have one point I wish\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f34137b510d245a3b8b839d4104f3ac2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s not answering the Chair. The point of order is over. The Minister can now answer the question or sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075ace3661c3440c8e3936d27d97bc50\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: OK, sure enough. So in the limited time that I have, any question that is asked that refers to costs that have gone previously or matters that are outside of the Estimates document are out of scope; similarly, this is not a committee of the whole House stage\u2014so any question around Te Mana o te Wai statements, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe other point that I wish to make is like the comment I said to Mr Penk: I would dearly like to have a discussion around the cyclone recovery. This is a matter that is very important to me. However, whilst the matter might be relevant to the local government sector, it is not relevant to this portfolio nor the Estimates debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002277d990addd8943b6b1926f9b5e04e4b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277d990addd8943b6b1926f9b5e04e4b3\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Just going back to the Minister\u2019s previous response of a few minutes ago, I was heartened by his willingness to have a conversation about these matters, in relation to cyclone recovery. I look forward to taking him up on his offer to have a yarn\u2014as he would have it. So we\u2019ll arrange that offline; I don\u2019t need to take the committee\u2019s time to ask him to open his diary and see how 3.30 next Friday might be. But, in principle, I\u2019m very pleased to have that offer and I look forward to doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI think the point in relation to cyclone recovery\u2014and I hear the Minister\u2019s point that that portfolio is not in direct alignment with the local government one, but I do think, nevertheless, in an Estimates hearing, the points I\u2019m about to make, Mr Chair, you will regard as reasonable for this context, which is to talk about what\u2019s set out in the Estimates and in Budget and annual review documents and all those ones that are relevant to the funding of the sector. Because the demands on the sector are as set out, in the first instance, in the Local Government Act and various other items on the statute book, and, for now, at least, the Resource Management Act and soon-to-be, albeit temporarily, Spatial Planning Act and the other one, Natural and Built Environment Act. But also there are miscellaneous and occasional and irregular demands that are put on the sector, and it\u2019s reasonable to ask, in this context, how the Government of the day, and local government more particularly, will respond to these challenges, including by way of resourcing, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, if I can use an example, in the Tiniroto community on the East Coast, there\u2019s a Bluff road that has been closed; the bypass one\u2014Parikanapa Road\u2014is, effectively, a bypass. Now, by the way, I\u2019m not asking the Minister to be an expert on these particulars. That wouldn\u2019t be fair, wouldn\u2019t be reasonable, and I\u2019m not about to ask a question particularly on the matter. But just to point out to the committee, more generally, that these demands on local government are a good illustration of the demands that are on councils and territorial authorities, whereby if there is a small ratepayer base but a large geographical area or a large problem in infrastructure terms that needs to be addressed, then that\u2019s an issue that needs to be taken into account by central government in determining what level of support is needed. That\u2019s an issue, incidentally, on which I would be grateful to meet with the Minister, if he has time, and, certainly, that community has reached out, hoping to be able to meet with a Minister\u2014and, in fact, your name specifically was mentioned, Mr McAnulty. So, again, not to put you on the spot in terms of making that particular arrangement now, but just to flag these are the kinds of demands that the local government sector is facing. There\u2019s the business as usual\u2014and there\u2019s the business very much not as usual, in response to events such as Cyclone Gabrielle, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI have some unrelated questions and comments to make, which, perhaps for the sake of neatness, I should seek in a separate call. But I\u2019d be remiss if I didn\u2019t add in to this contribution that we have good people involved in local government. We have elected representatives up and down this country who work hard, who represent their communities. Some of their decisions that I\u2019m aware of, whether it\u2019s my own patch or elsewhere, I\u2019d agree with; others, not so. But these are people who put themselves forward to serve their community and they deserve our commendation for that. They\u2019re part of a democratic process through local government elections\u2014and, as recently as last year, of course, that was their fate to go through, and they were putting up billboards, and we were not; 12 months later, of course, it\u2019s our time\u2014those of us in central government. But in a way we are engaged in the same act of, we hope, representation in public service. So I think it\u2019s worth acknowledging that. And, again, just to use, by way of example, the Cyclone Gabrielle recovery context, there are people who have been very deeply affected in their own households or businesses, nevertheless, trying to deliver the goods and services and the leadership that their local communities need. Where central government can support them to do that, recognising the difficulty of their circumstances, that\u2019s a positive thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, again, I would encourage the Government to do everything in its power to provide that support, noting the circumstances, noting the good intentions but sometimes more limited resources in terms of staffing, expert knowledge, ability to communicate, and so forth. So I\u2019ll conclude my remarks on the local government point, as it relates to Cyclone Gabrielle, there, and if no other\u2014the Minister or other\u2014wish to take a call, I\u2019ll pop up and perhaps make some other local government - related remarks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00221f274acc851246eb9e244ff174be7b1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f274acc851246eb9e244ff174be7b1c\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for those comments. He might remember back when the Auckland floods first hit, that I contacted him directly and invited him to stay in touch with me and work as a conduit between his caucus and me and my office to try and give him the information that he needed. I would extend that again. If he needs to have a yarn specifically around where it\u2019s relevant to my portfolios, I invite him to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI certainly recognise the issues that he\u2019s raised: that councils are constrained financially and that\u2019s having an impact on them to do their day-to-day activities\u2014in particular, roads. I think of the Tararua District Council in my electorate; it has 12,000 ratepayers, the fourth-largest roading network in the country. They simply are struggling to afford to do that, which is why the Government has assisted them with an increased allocation through the emergency works budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI would point to the fact that water services reform will remove a significant amount of debt from councils\u2019 balance sheets\u2014a debt that they are, in some instances, struggling to cover now. Some councils are already at their debt cap; other councils simply cannot increase rates, because their communities can\u2019t afford it. They will be assisted greatly by the removal of that debt cap. That is also a major feature of the review into the future of local government. The member may remember or recognise that I have invited Local Government New Zealand to work with the sector and figure out what they want from that; what the solutions are, in their view, to deal with the funding problems, and then come back after the election and we\u2019ll work through it together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae185c05ede94e4e85c5a7d3d0bc3044\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae185c05ede94e4e85c5a7d3d0bc3044\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, in response to the question I put to you about whether the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) will continue to pay three soon-to-be-redundant chief executives hired by the DIA\u2019s national transition unit on three waters\u2014they\u2019ll be redundant today or tomorrow by the very legislation you\u2019re sponsoring, Minister. You said that\u2019s \u201Cout of scope\u201D for the Estimates debate. Those salaries are funded out of these Estimates, paid by the DIA through the national transition unit to these three individuals. Minister, it\u2019s clearly in scope. Will you instruct the DIA to make them redundant and stop paying them when the roles are redundant or do you support the DIA keeping those individuals on, paying their salaries out of this year\u2019s Estimates for appropriations so that you can do what with them, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022c227a33fb0a04d8fa4ffb2e05b302604\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c227a33fb0a04d8fa4ffb2e05b302604\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The member is incorrect. One CEO will continue because one of the entities in which the CEO has been hired has not changed and will continue to go live in July 2024. So that person continues in that role. Outside of that, there is a change process under way. If they wish to continue to assist with the establishment, then they\u2019ll have that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d658431e4ec94eb69a62c7123378ab2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d658431e4ec94eb69a62c7123378ab2f\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. As the Minister outlined in his reply to one of the questions, the reference there to the future of local government review, my question is in regards to that review, which was undertaken during the period in which we are reviewing this afternoon: why has that subsequently been thrown to another, in effect, review committee to work out what needs to be done and, in effect, kicked for touch to April\u2014give or take\u2014of next year when, actually, a large number of the issues within the local government sector are well known and 90\u00A0percent of the issues primarily relate to funding, finance, and the financial sustainability of that sector? So why is the Minister choosing to continue to kick that issue down the road and not take some accountability in regards to being clear and concise around how the Government is planning to deal with the financial sustainability issues that the local government sector is facing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAlso in regards to that future of local government review, there were a wide-ranging number of recommendations, many of which, in our view, are not necessarily relevant or make the boat go faster in regards to making the local government sector high quality nor financially sustainable. I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s view around what aspects of that review he does not support, to save a little bit of time and effort by those individuals from further considering those points and coming up with further recommendations which will not be implemented by any Government in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002283f05e1f5b7f4693a094b83f3a1d0cb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f05e1f5b7f4693a094b83f3a1d0cb6\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The member might be happy to pick and choose which ones he and his party support and then go to the sector and say, \u201CThis is what we think; what do you think?\u201D We\u2019re not going to take that approach. We\u2019ve said to the sector \u201CHere\u2019s an opportunity.\u201D We don\u2019t want to repeat the mistakes of the past and numerous reviews over successive Governments that have taken the approach that he\u2019s proposing. We\u2019ve said, \u201CSit down together, try to find a consensus view on the recommendations.\u201D\u2014a view that takes into account rural, metro, provincial, and regional/unitary authorities, and how it worked for them. Then, after the election, I have invited them to sit down and we will work through it together. That has had a really positive response and I stand by that. If we\u2019re going to find a solution that works for the sector, we\u2019ve got to work alongside them, and as long as I\u2019m Minister, that\u2019ll be my commitment to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229caf0d0fae864d398cfe8ea8182d3427\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229caf0d0fae864d398cfe8ea8182d3427\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E One of the major issues facing the local government sector, in addition to the issues around financial sustainability, funding, and finance, relate to workforce. From the Minister, I\u2019m interested in what plans or actions the Minister has considered, or is the Minister considering, in regards to providing relief to the local government sector in terms of the significant workforce challenges that that sector has been under, under the review in which we are undertaking during that period, and continues to be impacted by. In particular, a number of examples in regards to workforce vacancies which are related to the appropriation and the fact that the local government sector has the inability to fill those vacancies because a number of those technical experts have, in effect, been\u2014and I\u2019m using some language from a number of those within the local government sector\u2014\u201Cpoached\u201D by central government agencies on salaries sometimes 30 to 40 percent higher for the same or similar role within local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in regards to aspects around, particularly, retention of those individuals within the sector and what the Minister is planning to do in order to provide a degree of certainty for those individuals who obviously undertake significantly important roles across our local government sector and, in effect, provide a number of solutions and options and value for our local communities. And I think that was highlighted again by the response of our local government sector during the period of the natural disasters that we faced earlier this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIt is without doubt that, without the support of, and the role of, and the actions by members of our local government sector, we would not have seen our communities be able to respond nor our communities be able to rebuild from the implications of what has occurred in that regard. But the reality is that a number of people within the local government sector, because of those significant workforce shortages and issues around changing reform policy, means that they are leaving the sector, and yet we don\u2019t seem to have a clear plan in regards to the workforce and the keeping and the building of capability and competence within that sector, which is a critical sector for our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s views around that and what specific actions, if any, have been undertaken in regards to mitigate that risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8bdfe3e112f4f459e279dc55ba5972e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8bdfe3e112f4f459e279dc55ba5972e\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In so far as that is relevant to the Estimates, I will give an example that will assist councils considerably and that is water reform, because what the Government is doing will remove a significant amount of debt from council\u2019s books, debts that they are currently having to service; that is a significant financial burden on local communities. The member\u2019s party has put forward a proposal that will not remove debt from their books and they will continue to have to service that individually at rates that will ultimately become unaffordable for ratepayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4b5110c42264a98b29e24128d80afbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4b5110c42264a98b29e24128d80afbf\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In the dying stages of this excellent discussion on local government with the Minister in the chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e779f8c455e4448a91943717bf3dc01d\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: And this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224838bc7e373e4a25bddb44427501a5fe\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Government\u2014the dying days of the Government too, Simon Court points out. Well, I\u2019m sure he\u2019s not far wrong there. We\u2019ve got nearly three weeks to go\u2014sitting weeks\u2014or two weeks to go, plus a bit as colleagues in my office misleadingly put up every time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, I do want to make a bit of a local pitch in relation to the local representation arrangements in my electorate, and, again, not to put the Minister on the spot to be OK with the particular aspects that I\u2019m going to talk about, but it is an opportunity to put on record some concerns of the community that have been expressed to me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ea4f094bc54440ba26513f0a8ee45ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: In so far as they refer to the appropriations, Mr Penk\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de8001afe2e646c498e383673c2eb2dc\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, and so far as they refer back to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e71a2bd63844831baf109f7af3793b1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Which you will refer back to constantly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252eadac879c24e66bea3520faf063269\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, absolutely. I\u2019ll refer constantly back to the appropriations, Mr Chair, and I appreciate your guidance on that point. Although can I just say, and I know I\u2019m straying to dangerous territory, but you\u2019ll indulge me, I hope, these points have been made to me, but also the Labour list MP based in the area, namely Marja Lubeck. I do want to acknowledge, ahead of her valedictory statement which will be made in just over an hour, in fact, that that\u2019s an aspect on which we\u2019ve been working together closely, with local advocates, and I\u2019ve enjoyed doing so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfa1acb52acb4189bbeb725c9b1bfc34\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That still doesn\u2019t lead it into the appropriations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282ce4256bb624f17b7b5d3ef34d599a0\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, but if I were to say how that relates to the appropriations, I probably wouldn\u2019t have much to say. So I will actually just get on firmer ground and say that, while the appropriations for local government for the relevant year, whichever that may be, relate to various ways of local government operating, of course it\u2019s important that it operates as efficiently as possible and revenue streams are relatively limited, because, of course, we\u2019ve got a particular system that\u2019s enabled under the legislation and the rating thereof. The point that relates very clearly to the appropriations in relation to my electorate is that the more rural areas sometimes feel underrepresented because they\u2019re part of a larger whole, whereby the old Rodney district, for example, which existed in its own terms, is now part of the Auckland Council\u2014the so-called super-city\u2014despite the fact that this area is very much not a city. It\u2019s very rural in character and nature, and the plea from locals who meet with me, they say, \u201CChris, for goodness\u2019 sakes next time you\u2019re in the House and discussing the appropriations of the local government sector in an Estimates kind of way, can you please raise this?\u201D And I say, \u201CWell that would be very relevant, so I\u2019ll be happy to do so\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f8b044766974b39bd17159344073682\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you could go back to them and say you have local issues time to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0fa8b36f6f143e18864a505e71d9ee4\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: We have local issues time as well, that\u2019s right, Mr Chair. I think you\u2019re giving a very good contribution, if I may say; it\u2019s almost as good as my own. But look, I do just want to make that point that that\u2019s part of the bigger conversation about what\u2019s important to local government: the efficiency, the revenue that\u2019s obtained by rates, and the fairness of the representation there on. So with that, I welcome any response that the Minister may have to that in the remaining time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225a63e1d4c738483b96607e0db63ec29b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a63e1d4c738483b96607e0db63ec29b\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It\u2019s an absolute pleasure. I wanted to go further into a couple of aspects. It\u2019s interesting in regards to this appropriation that the Minister refers to the reforms and the fact that the three waters reform programme will take the debt off council balance sheets. But what the Minister has not clearly articulated is: where does that debt go? Because the reality is that there isn\u2019t any magic money tree that exists. And while the debt may be taken off the council\u2019s balance sheet, that does not mean the debt does not exist in the context of the broader economy. While it may, under the Government\u2019s proposed model, sit within a water services entity, at the end of the day the ratepayer or the taxpayer will still need to contribute in order to fund that debt profile. So I think it\u2019s interesting to sort of make that point, but I don\u2019t think it holds any water, to use the point in regards to the fact that actually there is no magic money tree for this debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhat is clear, in regards to the estimated $3 billion of establishment costs\u2014these are costs that have been outlined across the period, and a large portion of those costs have already been included within this appropriation\u2014is that those will not actually derive one single metre of additional water pipe going into the ground; actually quite the opposite. The majority of that expenditure, to date, has been spent on what is a Conga line of consultants, a gravy train of consultants, and contractors by this Government to implement a reform programme which was strongly opposed by the majority of local government and the majority of Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s comments in regards to: does he stand by the fact that the expenditure within the appropriation is value for money and is actually going to derive benefits? And while the debt will be taken off councils\u2019 balance sheets, who actually is going to be funding that debt? Who is this magic population that isn\u2019t the ratepayer or the taxpayer? Or is it actually the ratepayer or the taxpayer? Because I think most Kiwis are pretty sensible and they can see through that, that no matter how you dress up this issue, the fact is that someone is going to have to pay and, at the end of the day, that person will be members of our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo those are the two points, Mr Chair, that I wanted to add and to thank the Minister for his contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bfd5a4a8bab439f9244c2c05401617c\u0022\u003EJustice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022170f496f6bdd474ba86959160726019b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022170f496f6bdd474ba86959160726019b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now have the Minister of Justice. The Minister of Justice is going to be available from 4 p.m. until 5 p.m. I call on the chair of the Justice Committee, Vanushi Walters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd03695d360b4acaa4369af4adf361fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd03695d360b4acaa4369af4adf361fc\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Chairperson of the Justice Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity to make some brief remarks to lead off this debate on the justice Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EFirstly, I\u2019d just like to thank the Minister and the chief executive, Andrew Kibblewhite, and also the officials who provided us with information and advice on the day, and thank the committee members for their diligence through this process. The Justice Committee hearing forms an important part of our holding the executive to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EIn 2023-24, the appropriations sought for Vote Justice totalled $856.932 million. That is about 3.6 percent more than the previous year\u2019s estimated actual expenditure of $827.013 million. Of those appropriations, they included $303.578 million for legal aid services and $196.59 million for services provided by the Ministry of Justice, as well as $72.968 million for community-based justice services including services such as the community legal service network.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThrough our discussion with the Minister and the chief executive, we discussed subjects such as the cluster approach to Budget bids\u2014and this is, of course, the second year that that approach has been taken\u2014the sentencing of offenders, support and assistance for victims, legislation to address organised crime, and the appropriation within Vote Justice that is the responsibility of the Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence. So with those brief remarks, I would thank the members, again, for their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002261df5d94efb34b93865cf56574a77261\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261df5d94efb34b93865cf56574a77261\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So, for those tuning in to this debate, this is a debate where we\u2019re discussing the Government\u2019s spending in the justice sector for the coming year in the Budget. As has just been indicated, you know, $800 million - odd are spent in the justice-specific area, but, obviously, a lot more is spent on the prisons through corrections and through the police, and in the broader sense that there are several billions being spent. Justice, as the overarching portfolio, guides the priorities for the Government of the day in terms of spending, and that\u2019s guided by the legislation that they pass. We\u2019ve been on the record a number of times querying the priorities of this Government in justice as a whole. It is a fact that the one, real, clear priority that they\u2019ve set out so far, articulated by Kelvin Davis, is to reduce the prison population by 30 percent, irrespective of what\u2019s going on in our communities and on our streets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe contend that that is a misplaced focus. Everybody wants to see fewer people in prison, but it needs to follow a fall in crime. But, instead, we\u2019ve seen an increase in crime over the same period. In terms of violent crime, we\u2019ve seen a 40-odd percent increase in violent crime over the same period that we\u2019ve seen a more than 20 percent drop in the number of people in prison. So that leaves people confused and confounded and trying to understand what the purpose is. Is it to keep us safe, or is it just to follow an ideological desire to reduce prison numbers, come what may?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo when we see the money that\u2019s being spent\u2014a lot of it on advice from the Ministry of Justice\u2014we ask ourselves: \u201CWell, what is the focus of the advice; what are they trying to achieve?\u201D We are two months out from an election. If I was fortunate enough to be Minister of Justice, I\u2019d be focusing on making better progress on reducing violent crime in our communities. So I\u2019d be interested in where the Government sees her priorities are there and what the Government is trying to achieve there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, we\u2019d be trying to deal with the real problems that we\u2019ve got on youth crime\u2014we\u2019ve seen a 500 percent increase in ram raids, and that\u2019s got out of control over the past few years. Various schemes have been put forward, but they haven\u2019t seemed to have been working so far. We have proposed some new tools, such as military academies. We\u2019ve also proposed new legislative tools around young serious offenders, but we haven\u2019t seen much progress made there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe third area needs to be the focus on speeding up the processes of the courts, which is keeping people\u2019s lives on hold for years, waiting for justice. But when we see this Government\u2019s priorities\u2014as well as reducing the prison population, we just heard today that they\u2019re going to be introducing legislation to reduce the voting age to 16. Well, I mean, heck, thank goodness for that! That\u2019s one thing that the people of New Zealand are calling out for when there\u2019s violent crime increasing, youth crime is out of control, and there are long delays in the court system! But this Government is focused on reducing the voting age to 16. Now, they\u2019ve also been spending millions of dollars on their crusade to ban hate speech, which is on and off again\u2014I think it\u2019s off at the moment\u2014but has involved a lot of ministerial and official advice on that topic. So I\u2019d be interested to know just what the Government is proposing to spend on the consultation and advice on that latest bill that they brought in around reducing the voting age, the Electoral (Lowering Voting Age for Local Elections and Polls) Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, finally, we\u2019ve heard from the Minister of Justice today, talking about being victim-centric and trying to focus on the needs of victims of crime. The fundamental question I ask her is: surely the thing that victims of crime want to be most focused on\u2014well, first is not to become a victim in the first place, which is around improving public safety, but then, secondly, to see justice and justice done. We\u2019ve seen a number of cases over the last few years where people\u2014young men\u2014have been convicted of very serious sexual assaults on young women, including rape, and have received home detention sentences. I would have thought victims would not be very impressed with that, frankly, and what that means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019d like to understand is why the Minister and the Government haven\u2019t given more attention to the Sentencing Act and whether it\u2019s working effectively, and whether the massive discounts that we\u2019re seeing\u2014sometimes up to 70 percent of sentences\u2014from judges as they apply a whole lot of discounts\u2014where people have come in, committed, and been convicted of very serious crimes, serious assaults, and, like I say, rapes, where the starting point might be eight or nine years in prison, and then a whole lot of discounts have been applied and they\u2019ve ended up in home detention, on the Xbox, watching TV, and doing whatever they\u2019re doing on home detention. So the question is: is the Minister satisfied with the situation where there is unfettered discretion on the part of the judiciary to reduce them as much as they feel due fit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, we in the National Party have proposed a limit on that, and I\u2019d be interested in her views on whether she sees that as appropriate. So when it comes to the $196 million that\u2019s being spent on the Ministry of Justice, primarily to provide advice to the Minister, has she asked for some advice on that, whether we\u2019ve got that balance right, and why should we change and why shouldn\u2019t we change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI also want to know whether she\u2019s asked for advice on whether the community is safer as a result of her Government\u2019s goal of reducing the prison population by 30 percent, regardless of what\u2019s going on in the community? And I saw some interviews where she said, basically, they hadn\u2019t asked and they didn\u2019t really know. I\u2019d give her another chance, I suppose, to answer that\u2014perhaps a bit better\u2014so that she can reassure New Zealanders or try to explain to New Zealanders why she sees that as a priority when everybody is seeing an increase in violent crime in our communities. We\u2019ve had a dreadful number of shootings in Auckland recently. We\u2019ve seen the increase in ram raids. We\u2019ve seen the 100 percent increase in retail crime, such that the many shop workers up and down the country are concerned for their safety, and the many parents who\u2019ve got young kids working in hospitality and retail worry about their safety. And yet the Government continues to be focused first and foremost on reducing the prison population, come what may. I want to know whether the Minister\u2019s got advice from officials as to what impact that is having on public safety, so that we can get a better understanding of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnother area that I\u2019d be interested to know is around the $6 million - odd a year that\u2019s being spent on cultural reports, including some money going to the likes of Harry Tam, a lifetime Mongrel Mob member, to write some of these reports. His company has a nice website sort of promising reduced sentences from these cultural reports, if they do them well, and you can get a quote for doing one of these cultural reports. We on this side of the Chamber aren\u2019t impressed with the cottage industry that\u2019s developed there. It\u2019s our view that that money would be better spent better supporting the victims of crime and giving them access to the support and help they need. The previous Minister, Kiritapu Allan, before she departed, did say that she wasn\u2019t very convinced that we were getting good value for money from those cultural reports. I\u2019d be very interested to see whether the new Minister, the fourth Justice Minister we\u2019ve had in this Labour Government, following Mr Little, following Mr Faafoi, and Kiri Allan\u2014the fourth Minister, I wondered what her view on the cultural reports was and whether she thinks we would do better by victims of crime if we gave them some of the extra support that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EFinally, I think, just some other random impertinent questions for the Minister to consider. Does she believe we are indeed in a crime wave in this country after six years of this Government? How would she describe the situation more broadly, given all the money that we invest, given the laws that are passed, and given all the talk that she has said about new legislation, extra police, and more resources? How would she assess the current situation that we face, does she believe there is room for improvement, and how does she think sticking with the current plan, which is to reduce the prison population irrespective of what\u2019s going on in community, is going to help? And I\u2019ll leave those questions for her to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00220a6054168da3480aa7cf9f39a9ac7010\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a6054168da3480aa7cf9f39a9ac7010\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Following on from my colleague Paul Smith\u2019s\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022974594c3f27146daa08dd86d31ac3e02\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Goldsmith!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f34264fbf9ad43deb0fda1a6a6889ee6\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Goldsmith\u2019s\u2014[Interruption] Following on from his questions, I, too, have similar questions when we\u2019re looking at the Vote documents. The justice Estimates, they don\u2019t present a coherent picture of what or how the Government is seriously looking at tackling the crime that we\u2019re seeing, the increase in crime that we\u2019re seeing, but also how we\u2019re going to tackle getting through the backlog of cases that are going through our court and justice system. We\u2019re hearing of some trials taking up to three years and we\u2019ve also heard some talk around whether or not courts should be sitting on a Saturday to help relieve some of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI wonder, Minister\u2014when we look at the sector within the Vote Justice system, it\u2019s really quite hard to ascertain exactly what some of these Estimates budgets are going to be spent on. And it makes it hard to actually figure out what is going on with crime, what is going on with our court process, and trying to make sure that everybody gets access to justice fairly, but our victims especially get access as well. So, Madam Chair, I just wonder whether or not the Minister can give us a bit of detail on what it is within the justice Votes that tells us what is the coherent picture of how the Government\u2019s going to deal with the increased crime, and what is the picture in regard to dealing with the backlog of court cases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1ca1398348b49d48cfb5b40fc64b0f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1ca1398348b49d48cfb5b40fc64b0f9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019ve got some more questions for the Minister to consider as well. One would be when she talks about her Government, and again in the House today, being very focused on the needs of the victims of crime\u2014yeah, she is aware, I presume, that her own officials in the ministry admitted during the previous Budget process that the victims assistance scheme, and I quote, \u201CThe Ministry and Victim Support have managed the cost pressure by deliberately under-promoting the scheme to minimise access and uptake.\u201D I just want to read that again, just so people get that sort of clear in their head: \u201CThe Ministry and Victim Support\u201D\u2014this is from officials. This is from officials writing through the Minister to the Minister of Finance, saying: \u201CThe Ministry and Victim Support have managed the cost pressures by deliberately under-promoting the scheme\u201D\u2014and we\u2019re talking about the victim assistance scheme, deliberately under-promoting the scheme\u2014\u201Cto minimise access and uptake.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat was the style; they talked a big game about how they\u2019re focused on the needs of victims for years. Kris Faafoi would stand up on his hind legs and he would talk about it and Andrew Little would, before. And yet, at the same time, they were deliberately under-promoting the scheme to minimise access and uptake, because they hadn\u2019t put enough money into it and they couldn\u2019t cover the need. And so the first question is: have you changed, Minister? Are they still under-promoting the scheme or have they actually decided that perhaps they should let victims of crime know about it so that they can access the help that they need? And how can we have some assurance that that is going to actually lead to New Zealanders getting better access to the help that they need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBecause another example I could give the Minister, and another question that follows from it, is the big announcement made with great fanfare about a fund of $20 million around strangulation. Now, everybody knows\u2014well not everybody knows, but a lot of people know\u2014that when people strangle somebody else, particularly in a domestic violence situation, it is a well-known precursor of even worse violent crime and a real signal of danger. So strangulation is a big red flag fluttering everywhere. And so this big fund was announced, $20 million, to help victims of or complainants of strangulation to get through the court system and to get the help they need, and it was promised that it was going to be 800 people helped a year. But then it turned out that virtually nobody had\u2014and I think they might be up to 50 or 60. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like the Minister to give us an update on how many people have actually been helped, because it was, like I say, nowhere near what was promised. And then it turned out that actually that fund had been used to help more perpetrators of strangulation than defendants or complainants of strangulation. So, I mean, it is sort of beyond recognition. So on the one hand you\u2019ve got a victims assistance scheme, which deliberately under-promotes itself so as to not draw attention to itself because it is inadequate to the task, and then, secondly, you\u2019ve got a strangulation scheme announced with great fanfare and totally under delivering and actually giving more help to the perpetrators of strangulation than the defenders of strangulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo on both those instances, I\u2019d like an update from the Minister as to what progress, if any, has been made on both of those important areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c791864a0f164398a40289649fbf8f53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c791864a0f164398a40289649fbf8f53\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member, can I just remind the member who\u2019s just taken his seat that it\u2019s not really respectful to call another member who is not in the Chamber as having hind legs. So reflect on that kind of language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00221aabfcd52a4543d9a7986fdc6f8f0572\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221aabfcd52a4543d9a7986fdc6f8f0572\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare. Well, we know Aotearoa has one of the most imprisoned populations in the world, with 170 per 100,000 in prison. Of those people, 52 percent are M\u0101ori. The majority of M\u0101ori prisoners are locked up on drugs- and property-related offences. In other words, crimes of poverty. Since this Government began its programme to decrease the number of M\u0101ori in prison\u2014in 2019\u2014our prison population has gone up by 2 percent. Two-thirds of our prisoners have been denied their right to maintain contact with their wh\u0101nau, due to the ban on face-to-face visits, long after the rest of us have had COVID19 restrictions removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo not only has the prison population increased under this Government but life for prisoners has gotten worse. In fact, this has been the case for the last 35 years. Since the publication of Moana Jackson\u2019s groundbreaking report, He Whaip\u0101nga Hou, the rate of incarceration for t\u0101ne M\u0101ori hasn\u2019t changed, at 50 percent. The rate of incarceration for w\u0101hine M\u0101ori has risen significantly. Today, M\u0101ori women make up 64 percent of the female prison population in Aotearoa. Our people suffer unequal outcomes at every level. We are more likely to be stopped, searched, arrested, and convicted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EDespite what the ACT Party believe, and the National Party, t\u0101ne M\u0101ori receive special treatment from the Crown, as in, the criminal justice system. Does the Minister believe that the system is racist, and how is she going to decrease M\u0101ori incarceration rates? It was only last year that an investigation by the Privacy Commissioner and the Independent Police Conduct Authority found the police guilty of racially profiling and illegally photographing rangatahi without consent. Children as young as 15 were approached in broad daylight and threatened with arrest if they refused to have their photo taken, all for the crime of looking out of place. That is not policing with consent; that is bullying. It is predatory behaviour and a total abuse of power. We know too well what happens when M\u0101ori break the law. We are reminded on the news every day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EBut what happens when the police break the law? Well, in this case, the Minister of Police\u2014who is now the Prime Minister\u2014pledged to change the law to allow the police to continue to violate our rights. No consequences for the police. But we know what the consequences are for M\u0101ori: over-incarceration and the continued intimidation of our rangatahi by the State. The question I\u2019d like to know is: how will the Minister ensure the police are held accountable for breaking the law as we citizens are held to account? After those particular reports have found that it was illegal to be photographing rangatahi without parental consent, the whakam\u0101 trauma of these incidents shouldn\u2019t be carried by the rangatahi and their wh\u0101nau; instead, it should be the police. Crime in Aotearoa is a result of colonial inequities here in Aotearoa. It\u2019s past time the colonial Government stop feasting on the misery of our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EUnder Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Crown has no right to take our people from their wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi and put them in the State prison system. The impacts of the prison pipeline from State care and the education system are clear. Studies have shown that one in three children placed in residential care by the State ended up in prison later in life. Recent reports, including In\u0101ia Tonu Nei and Turuki! Turuki! put forward a series of recommendations to restore power to tangata whenua and end inequality in our justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EHere are the questions we would like to ask of the Minister. Would she take a look at establishing a M\u0101ori justice authority? A M\u0101ori independent justice authority\u2014precedence has been used in the health space\u2014and we want to ensure that we can mirror the opportunities that the M\u0101ori Health Authority has in the justice system to be able to come up with our own solutions by iwi, hap\u016B, wh\u0101nau, M\u0101ori organisations. We know there\u2019s $97 million of Wh\u0101nau Ora money sitting in prisons. What is happening with that money? What is Wh\u0101nau Ora got to do with the justice system? It\u2019s actually got absolutely everything opposite to do with the justice system. So those are some of the questions that I have for you, Minister, through the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2074e02548e4ed7aef44695ce8aab58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2074e02548e4ed7aef44695ce8aab58\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll be quick, as we have limited minutes to respond to all those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo the first point from Mr Goldsmith, who tries to draw a correlation between the decrease in the prison population and an increase in offending. So he\u2019s asked if we\u2019ve had any advice from officials. The advice is that there is no correlation between the reduction in prison numbers and an increase in some areas of crime. I can speak to that briefly by saying that the key areas of the prison population, under offence types, that we\u2019ve seen a reduction in prison numbers would be for burglary and would also be for drug offences\u2014for those possession offences of drug offences. They are the two main areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EInterestingly, as the prison population has reduced, there is now a more significant proportion of the prison population that have been incarcerated as a result of violent offending. So the number of those in prison for violent offending has actually increased. So I\u2019m happy to provide more information on that later on if he would like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s also asked in relation to the Sentencing Act, and I\u2019m not sure if it\u2019s his policy that I think he referred; he didn\u2019t clarify it\u2014but there were requirements. I think one idea was that to specify for the safety of the victim and also for the safety of the community, to be requirements for a judge to weigh up at sentencing. If the member would like to refer to the Sentencing Act, those are already in legislation. So those are factors already that are a requirement for judges to take into consideration upon sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Section 27 cultural reports, those have been around for well over a decade. I have seen an increase recently in terms of a cottage industry that has sprung up to create those reports. I\u2019ve already indicated in this House during question time that I will take a look at that. It seems like it does seem to be increasing, and I\u2019m prepared to take a look at where that\u2019s tracking and whether that\u2019s a good use of funds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the other questions that that member raised, he also specifically asked, I think, around youth offending. He asked around\u2014I think it was ram raids was your question. So what we have seen is a sharp increase but that has been tracking down\u2014and I think that tracking down for youth offending in ram raids has been tracking down as well. That is largely because those programmes that we brought into play at the end of last year, which was a whole range of better pathways for youth offenders\u2014that is working well. We are seeing that those young people who have been repeat offenders are getting the wraparound support that will take them to stop reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of questions\u2014I\u2019m running out of time, so I\u2019ll go really fast. In terms of questions\u2014and I\u2019ve lost my piece of paper for Nicole McKee, sorry\u2014that you raised in relation to court backlogs was your question. I have the list here of what the Government is currently doing to address court backlogs, which would be: increasing the number of judges in the Court of Appeal, High Court, and District Court through to 30 June 2025; the Government\u2019s provided $15 million over four years as part of Budget 2021 to establish new Family Court associates to speed up that process in the Family Court; also the Criminal Process Improvement Programme, additional funding there for Police prosecutions to enable that; also in the Coroner\u2019s Court, we\u2019re seeing the appointment of special assistants in that space to speed that up; the development of demand-driven rostering and scheduling approach to ensure optimal use of all judicial officers, courtroom staff\u2014to making sure that\u2019s running as effectively as possible. They are some of the measures we are taking to address that backlog.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u002288debfdd767a4cd684ab2557b7635c41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288debfdd767a4cd684ab2557b7635c41\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister Andersen, I\u2019ll ask you two questions; one of them\u2019s quite quick. The Human Rights Commission: they\u2019ve been given $14 million and they have two chief executives. Its recent activity is to claim \u201Cthe fundamental illegality of the State\u201D and that the Crown\u2019s claim to sovereignty is \u201Cillegal\u201D. So why is the Government paying for the existence of a body which actively seeks to deny the right of Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EMy second question to the Minister is regarding sector leadership and support. At page\u00A0100 and 101\u2014the bottom of page 100 and the top of page 101\u2014it talks about \u201C[The] appropriation is intended to achieve timely advice and support by the Ministry of Justice to the Justice Sector.\u201D, and there\u2019s an allocation of $13 million there. But when we look at the assessment of the performance, the assessment itself is based on \u201CThe satisfaction of the Justice Sector Leadership Board with the leadership, advice and support provided by the Ministry\u201D, and it\u2019s rated eight out of 10. Now, that\u2019s the key performance indicator, just people being happy with a $13 million spend. So I wonder: what is involved in that? What is involved in the satisfaction of the Justice Sector Leadership Board for a $13\u00A0million spend, because I think the people actually should be well aware of what that entails and what the detail is around that spend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo, $13 million in sector leadership and support, Minister, and $14 million to the Human Rights Commission, who are wanting to\u2014actively seeking to\u2014deny the right of Government. We\u2019re just wondering why we\u2019re funding them to do that. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddc44c8021dc4066aca5e58971d650a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddc44c8021dc4066aca5e58971d650a4\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to speak a second time. Just a couple of questions, Minister, before we end the session, around\u2014I understand Operation Tauwhiro, Operation Cobalt, and the reasons why those particular operations are in action. My question is: what are you doing as a justice Minister around tax fraud and tax evasion in this country that\u2019s costing this country $7 billion a year? Where is the operation in regards to tax evasion here in this country? Where is the operation\u2014like Operation Tauwhiro, like Operation Cobalt\u2014for those who are costing this country billions and billions of dollars of tax evasion? That\u2019s one question I\u2019d like to ask.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe other question is around ensuring that we look at a whole, transformative approach to the justice system. Again, I welcome the Minister to answer the question around the appetite for an independent M\u0101ori justice authority to allow M\u0101ori the dignity and the mana motuhake to be able to come up with solutions\u2014because the current solution isn\u2019t working for us\u2014to allow us some dignity and to allow us the opportunity to reform ourselves as we climb from underneath the bonnet of years and years of colonial violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EAnd so koina hoki aku whakaaro, e te Minita\u00A0[those are my thoughts, Minister].\u00A0If you could answer those questions, that\u2019d be much appreciated. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00227c9cd7cb6e3d47a58a6a8cc95e027954\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c9cd7cb6e3d47a58a6a8cc95e027954\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to the Minister for engaging in this discussion about Justice and its Estimates and various challenges in the sector. Obviously, it\u2019s pretty broad ranging, and I acknowledge the Minister also has the portfolio of police, and, of course, courts, which is very dear to my heart, within that broader justice sector as well. I know the Minister will be au fait with some of the issues in our court system, having been chair of the Justice Committee before that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs others, including my own colleague and friend the Hon Paul Goldsmith and Nicole McKee, have both quite rightly pointed out, one of the major barriers to justice in this country at the moment, from an access to justice point of view, is the huge backlogs involved in having cases heard in our court system. I might bring out some of those figures, not to quote them all across the different types of courts and tribunals necessarily but to highlight for the attention of the House just how dire the situation is, but by way of shorthand, Ms McKee is quite right when she says that it can be up to three years that it takes a case to go through. The key aspect of that is actually understanding that it can take, you know, the majority of that time even to get one\u2019s case begin to be heard. It\u2019s not even necessarily that the cases take a long time\u2014and, of course, sometimes there are good reasons for that\u2014but even to get to the start line of being heard is a major challenge in this country at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I wonder if the Minister can offer her thoughts on using, much better than is currently the case, much more extensively, what\u2019s sometimes called virtual meeting rooms, sometimes called AVL\u2014audiovisual link\u2014or other remote participation methods. By way of background to the question, she\u2019ll be aware that it\u2019s already possible under the statute book that we have now, with the remote participation Act, for people to Zoom in\u2014you know, as we would say in colloquial fashion now\u2014whether it\u2019s from, maybe, a custodial situation to avoid the security risk and cost of transporting a prisoner to have a relatively minor hearing. We\u2019re not talking about full trials or jury matters or whatever, but I wonder if the Minister can advise what thought she has given to working with the justice sector to have much more remote participation where that\u2019s appropriate and where that would be in the interest of justice. I\u2019m hoping she will reflect on the savings of time, of cost, of removing the postcode lottery of lawyers being available in one location but not another, to take away the challenges of a pandemic situation or other public health challenges\u2014maybe ill health during the winter months in a more ordinary way\u2014earthquake strengthening issues with courts, flooding issues, in the case of extreme weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI hope that she will reflect that there is much more that we can and should do in this country working with the courts\u2014yes, recognising that as a separate branch of Government, but working with them to provide them the tools to enable that more technology-based interaction through our courts, and thereby to improve the lives of those who so desperately need to have their matters heard. They need their day in court. They need for justice not to be delayed and therefore justice not to be denied. I sense the Minister is engaging in various matters of importance, so I\u2019ll sort of seek an indication of when she\u2019s able to address that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut maybe I\u2019ll jump ahead to a related point, which is in relation to legal aid. I do acknowledge that the Government has recently announced an increase to the levels of legal aid, and I think that\u2019s worth supporting, but in terms of the structure of how legal aid representation works, I wonder if the Minister has received any advice or would seek advice on whether junior lawyers assisting a more senior colleague might be able to attract legal aid funding in a way that will be helpful for the speedy resolution of the matters but also by way of succession training\u2014that is to say, equipping the next level of the profession, the younger or at least newer practitioners, to be able to have the mantle passed to them and so to be able to provide that important representation into the future, particularly in criminal justice matters but not exclusively those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002273b21642bc464131a749549d4695d964\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273b21642bc464131a749549d4695d964\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, I\u2019d just like to inform the House and members that I\u2019ve had a request from the main Opposition party that they would like to move on to transport soon, sooner rather than later, so if there are no further calls on justice\u2014we will continue with justice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00220b4ccc9f56624429b74b78136118c4de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b4ccc9f56624429b74b78136118c4de\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I wonder if there\u2019s been a slight miscommunication. The point is, I suppose, we\u2019ve only got a certain amount of time left, and other parties likewise, and we\u2019ll try and manage that as best we can. I\u2019m sort of keen to understand what will happen if we finish the justice one earlier, and I think I understand from you that that would mean we\u2019d go into transport more quickly, and if that\u2019s the case then so be it, but we don\u2019t actively seek to move on to transport more quickly than would otherwise be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00226f763354a0ca45b18a28dba841602460\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f763354a0ca45b18a28dba841602460\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, Madam Speaker, just to confirm that we\u2019re happy to proceed through as planned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00229132c0c7c21446e78d1fc2a4b34064a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229132c0c7c21446e78d1fc2a4b34064a7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. We\u2019ve had a bit of debate, from various speakers, around prison and what that represents, and we\u2019ve received a long-term report from officials around the changes in the make-up of New Zealand\u2019s prison population; 20 to 30 years ago there were far more people there on property crime\u2014stealing things\u2014and on drug crime. Now the prison population is very much more\u2014almost exclusively\u2014serious violent crime and sexual crimes, with some very serious drug dealing in the mix. And so I struggle to understand the point of view of my colleague from the M\u0101ori Party Rawiri Waititi, who sort of implied that people shouldn\u2019t be there, given the very significant crimes that they have been convicted of before being there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd so I was just interested to know whether the Minister, in terms of the overall spending and the focus of policy in justice\u2014as I\u2019ve iterated, the current Government\u2019s philosophy is to reduce that prison population, irrespective of what\u2019s going on, by 30\u00A0percent. We had her predecessor as Minister of Justice saying, \u201CLocking people up and throwing away the key is exactly what gangs want. They want New Zealanders to pay for their university of crime.\u201D That was a quote\u2014a tweet\u2014from our previous Minister of Justice Kiri Allan. And I just want to know whether the current Minister of Justice has the same philosophy or view that prisons are some sort of university of crime and therefore something to not support or to try and avoid at all costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s relevant, I suppose, because of the very widespread public anger\u2014I think would be the right word\u2014over a recent prominent case where somebody who had been convicted of a serious violent crime was on home detention and then went on to commit a horrendous crime in Auckland; a shooting. And many people ask \u201CWell, how is it that somebody convicted of a serious violent crime is left in the community and actually able to go and work?\u201D And so my broader question is\u2014and, of course, there are always going to be various instances and exceptions, but is she broadly comfortable with the practice that has developed of people convicted of serious violent crimes not going to prison but being on home detention? And if she is, well, that\u2019s fine, because that seems to be the approach, because there is no significant change proposed by this Government. But I want to know whether she has given real consideration to restricting in some way the ability of judges to massively reduce sentences to the point of home detention for a whole host of reasons. And so that\u2019s one area that I\u2019d like to get some better understanding from her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe would make the point that public safety should be the priority and where people have been convicted of serious violent crimes, in most cases the most appropriate thing is to get them out of circulation for a period of time so that they cannot create new victims. That seems to be the issue, and so I\u2019d be interested to know what the current situation is: how many people are currently on home detention who have been convicted of serious violent offences? That would be a useful thing for us to know so that we can understand the scale of the problem. And, ultimately, does she think that is\u2014not in an individual sense, because no Minister should comment on individual cases, but the Minister is responsible for the Sentencing Act and so I want to know whether she has a view whether the current arrangements where people can be convicted of serious violent offences and end up on home detention is something that she is satisfied with or whether she thinks some review of the Sentencing Act is required as the National Party is proposing, because she has been quoted as saying, \u201CPeople are frustrated with the level of crime.\u201D and so the fundamental question is what\u2019s she proposing to do about it differently?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00223408a97610b847d69d1b090f0f546bec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223408a97610b847d69d1b090f0f546bec\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. So as a result of the Auckland shooting recently, there are a number of inquiries currently under way. One will be the coroner, one will be through the police investigation. I understand the Independent Police Conduct Authority of New Zealand will also be conducting their investigation and also the Department of Corrections will also be looking at that. So I\u2019m interested to see all of the outcomes of those investigations to determine if there have been any red flags which have been missed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESaying that, Mr Goldsmith, it\u2019s important to note that whether home detention is awarded or not is for judges\u2014the judicial decision that is made for judges. So I assume that he is proposing that he would, in some way, limit or curtail what judges currently do in order to have an impact from this House into the courts in terms of what is able to be awarded. I don\u2019t currently have a programme of work under way to do that. However, I think it will be very important to take a look at all of those inquiries currently under way to see what the findings are before we quickly jump to any conclusions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI want to address, also, the use of audiovisual links (AVL) or virtual meeting room remote use that was raised by Mr Penk. So yes, it is available. It\u2019s also important to note\u2014I think the number I have is that there has been an increase of 97 percent of use of AVL, so it is encouraged and used at a far higher rate than it has been used before. It is still at the discretion of a judge when that AVL is used or not. Obviously there will be some instances which would probably be inappropriate, such as sentencing or a first appearance potentially, where the use of AVL would not be appropriate. But there is a movement towards utilising it more and, by that statistic, there has been a big increase in the use of AVL.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question he raised in terms of legal aid, a second lawyer can be funded under legal aid. But this is more generally for those big or more complex cases\u2014and he\u2019s already noted that there has been a significant increase, under this Government, for funding of legal aid. So that has been in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThere was one other point made\u2014I think there was a point raised by Mr Waititi in relation to Operation Cobalt and I think Operation Tauwhiro. Both of those fall under operational activities of police. We\u2019re in Estimates now for justice, so I can\u2019t really go into discussing what\u2019s under that appropriation when we are discussing justice. I would point out in relation to improving outcomes for M\u0101ori in terms of the justice system, that Te Pae Oranga\u2014M\u0101ori justice panels\u2014have been rolled out right across the country. They continue to prove that reoffending rates and getting people on the right pathways within their communities\u2014all of those reviews are proving that they are providing far more positive outcomes for M\u0101ori, and I look closely to see how we can continue to support that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of\u2014Mr Goldsmith had one other question. Oh, that\u2019s who I had\u2014Nicole McKee raised whether it was value for $14 million for the justice senior leadership board; whether that\u2019s a good use. I would say that the justice cluster, in general, are put in all of those Votes in one, being able to get better value for money. All the chief executives I speak to think it\u2019s working well, that it is good value for money, and to have that level of coordination going right across Courts, Police, Justice, Corrections does require a level of administration. But I would say, overall, having that coordination\u2014having that oversight\u2014actually holds the key to getting better outcomes for victims of crime, and that has been the missing case in our justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWithout that coordination, it\u2019s each of those agencies taking their own lens, without having the ability of looking at how that, in fact, impacts upon the victim. So that coordination, I think, holds real opportunities for New Zealand to increase the rights of victims and the visibility of victims within our justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b12ae8ab822d402786bbc97408b7fbc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b12ae8ab822d402786bbc97408b7fbc4\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for the answers to that. The question about the sector leadership and support was not so much whether it was value for money for the $13 million, but what was it that they provided specifically for $13 million. The request in the question about value for money was directed at the Human Rights Commission and them having two chief executives, and them actually undertaking a project looking at the sovereignty of New Zealand and coming to a conclusion, so far, that it\u2019s illegal. So it was asking a question about that. I have two more quick questions for you, Minister. One is looking at the biggest driver of costs in our justice system, which appears to be our legal aid bill. When we looked at it, it\u2019s gone from $180 million in 2018/19 to $281 million in 2022/23. Now, it\u2019s an estimated $304 million cost for 2023/24; that\u2019s a 56 percent increase in legal aid requirement over the last five years. So I\u2019m wondering: what is the driver behind this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis then leads on to my second question, which is about the elimination of family and sexual violence. I understand that it\u2019s not the Minister\u2019s portfolio, but the budget actually comes under the justice cluster, and it has $22 million attached to it. So the question is: what has actually been done in that portfolio? The performance in page 95 of the Vote is essentially saying that it\u2019s overseeing actions in the plan and that the Minister\u2019s satisfied with advice\u2014so it looks like we\u2019ve spent $22 million on actions that we don\u2019t know about and that the Minister is happy with the advice. We know, and the Minister in the chair has said herself, that we have an increase in family harm occurring at the moment. The police commissioner has said the same thing. So with the $22 million and everybody being happy, but we\u2019re seeing no progress, is the Minister able to answer as part of that justice sector, what has that $22 million been spent on, and will we see some tangible results in the next 12 months? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022906c1ce2060d41bbaf5cef905c420e51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022906c1ce2060d41bbaf5cef905c420e51\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So, hoping for some good answers from the Minister on these things. So ultimately it all comes down to the Government\u2019s priorities for the $190-odd million dollars that it devotes to the Ministry of Justice to work on problems that we\u2019re trying to fix as a society. When we look around the justice space, the three, four things that spring to mind are the increase in violent crime that is the scourge in our community\u2014the fact that the gangs are recruiting faster than the police, and a sense of disorder on our streets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESecondly, there is a real worry about the massive increase in youth crime and this is particularly exemplified by the ram-raiders who are running amuck and causing so many difficulties across our communities. The third issue, which would strike me as top of mind, is the very long delays to justice that many New Zealanders face, whether they are in the criminal system, in the family court system, and all the other elements of the courts with people\u2019s lives being on hold. That partly relates to the previous question that my colleague Chris Penk was talking about, the very significant increase in the legal aid budget. Well, a big part of it is that everything takes so much longer and there are so many lawyers involved in the whole process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo those are three big challenges in the justice space, the fourth area I\u2019d identify would be around electoral law and the importance of reasserting equal voting rights for all New Zealanders. Now, equal suffrage is a core part of our human rights legislation, but it only directly applies to general elections. This Government has undermined that at local elections through its Canterbury Regional Council bill, which moves away from equal voting rights for all citizens and democratic accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo given those priorities, what I want to understand is why this Minister and this Government has instead prioritised reducing the prison population by 30 percent, irrespective of what\u2019s happening in our community. Secondly, they spend an enormous amount of time and official advice, millions of dollars on an ill-conceived proposal to ban hate speech and whether the Minister regrets all that diversion of effort. Another area has been on reducing the voting age to 16, which is not something that I would have thought was top of mind for most New Zealanders in that justice context. Then a whole lot of electoral law, financing boondoggles, which weren\u2019t carried out in the normal process of being bipartisan, but rammed through, we think, in order to skew things in one direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo I suppose that what I\u2019m putting to the Minister is: why have you prioritised those things at a time when, as a country, in the broader justice space, we have these very substantial pressures when it comes to violent crime, youth crime, and very long delays to justice in our justice system? And does the Minister believe that she, and her Government over the past six years has given enough attention to those real pressing issues on the front line that all New Zealanders are focused on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002244d46e30ad584ba2a0a5158cb7e300c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244d46e30ad584ba2a0a5158cb7e300c1\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Look, as we only have a couple of minutes left, I\u2019ll touch on the issue of violent crime. The member has raised the issue that violent crime has increased and I\u2019m pleased that he mentioned that the large reason for that increase has been family violence. That has been a significant driver of that area, and it\u2019s for that reason that this Government has invested, more so than any other, in Te Aorerekura, which is the first time we have the funding in place in those NGO sectors like Women\u2019s Refuge, for those outreach groups to actually get involved and fund our communities, not only to respond to family violence, but to engage with those families to stop it happening again. So I would say that there has been the biggest investment New Zealand has ever seen to reduce family violence and stop it from happening to the next generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about youth crime and the increase we have seen\u2014a spike in ram-raid offending, that looks like it is tracking downwards, and that is because there has been significant resource invested in those wraparound programmes like Kotahi te Whakaaro, like Circuit Breaker. We see that around 80 percent of those young people who go through those programmes do not reoffend, and I put that in stark contrast to the National Party\u2019s policy of introducing boot camps, which have an 80 percent number of those who do reoffend after going through those camps. So they don\u2019t work, and we continue to be a Government that goes on evidence. We have evidence-based policy and that is why investing in family violence, and that is why investing in reducing youth offending addresses and tackles those route drivers of crime that do take time, but we know that they do track our communities in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002243b7655e63194776ae2aeccffaff598f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243b7655e63194776ae2aeccffaff598f\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s traditional when the gallery starts filling up for valedictory remarks to sort of comment self-deprecatingly on how they might all be there to hear you, the speaker, on justice Estimates, and I have to say that it\u2019s good to see the debate being so warmly welcomed. Actually, I do want to acknowledge, if I can, and take the liberty to say that there\u2019s a couple of people from the Kaipara ki Mahurangi electorate who are here, no doubt, in support of Marja Lubeck. So I acknowledge them coming from the Labour Party and supporting her, and Marja herself, who is about to give her valedictory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJust briefly in relation to justice matters, I wonder if the Minister can address now or undertake to find out if it\u2019s the case that the scheme whereby duty lawyers have been incentivised to have their clients plead guilty early\u2014that was something that has come up previously, and I think most people have understood that that programme had been discontinued. Her predecessor the honourable Kiritapu Allan had indicated that she was unhappy with it and that it would be discontinued, which I would say is a good thing, but my understanding anecdotally recently is that, actually, that isn\u2019t the case, and in other District Courts that would continue to take place. So I ask the Minister to take that on board and find out if that\u2019s indeed so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally, in relation to the Criminal Process Improvement Programme, or CPIP, as it\u2019s known, I wonder if the Minister can explain in her remaining time\u2014short as it is\u2014what positive changes have derived from that, or, for that matter, the Te Ao M\u0101rama programme, which had been designed to improve our justice system. But it seems to many casual observers and, actually, to those who have followed it more closely as well that there hasn\u2019t been much tangible gain from those. If the Minister can say otherwise, then I would be very interested to hear it in order to be convinced that it\u2019s a worthwhile programme to have continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00227ae8ad6bdaec48c38f0e318815ec3029\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ae8ad6bdaec48c38f0e318815ec3029\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on the Hon Paul Goldsmith, but just a heads-up that we will be going to valedictory speeches soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00229643727ca5394b2ebe04074297476027\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229643727ca5394b2ebe04074297476027\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I was just wondering if we\u2019d had an answer from the Minister to my previous question around the strangulation fund of $20 million that had been announced, with great fanfare, to help 800 people a year\u2014I think the number was\u2014who are victims of strangulation, or complainants, to deal with it. We\u2019ve found out that a very small number\u2014maybe 50 or 60 a year\u2014had been receiving the help, and then, secondly, we found out that there had been more perpetrators receiving help from that fund than victims or complainants. Given the context of her speech, I was wanting to get an update on that figure. Then, secondly, on the Victims Assistance Scheme, which, as I said, had been deliberately under-promoted \u201Cfrom the officials\u201D because they didn\u2019t have the funds, I wanted to know whether that was still the policy of her Government to deliberately under-promote that scheme, or whether she had changed her mind on that and was actually promoting it in order to help victims of crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9eb670e779f4894aac317413d26f030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9eb670e779f4894aac317413d26f030\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just very quickly, as I know that we\u2019re short on time, in relation to the member\u2019s question around strangulation, or the offence of \u201Cimpedes breathing\u201D, that was a new offence that was introduced under this Government that has resulted in a large increase to the number of family violence offences being reported. So the question he raised was that there was funding made available to the defence in a court case that is made available to the defence if they request it for specialist evidence. That has not made any difference in terms of what the outcomes are, and I do have the statistics there that show that the judge\u2019s having that information before them assists them in making a good decision. I wouldn\u2019t say that it potentially assists either way the defence or the prosecution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo there are approximately just over 1,000 people charged with strangulation each year. Since 2019, there have been over 4,000 charges and, roughly, 50 percent of those people who were charged in 2021-22 were convicted, and so that was a slight increase on the year before. Of those people charged who were convicted, about 37 percent faced imprisonment. So that statistic indicates that while the defence may have had the opportunity for specialist advice, we\u2019re still seeing good numbers in terms of not only prosecutions but convictions, and even a prison term being served for that offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a28beb441d3d4134895584f620df88c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a28beb441d3d4134895584f620df88c6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is suspended for valedictory comments. We will resume at 7.30, after dinner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f683037e04534b2fa68b042add5eb0f4\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269a753fe8ebc403f902f74a5b673d7db\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d16cfb9aa4ef4bc5bc49cd01f041510b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d16cfb9aa4ef4bc5bc49cd01f041510b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, following the valedictory statements, the House will suspend for the dinner break and resume in committee at 7.30 p.m. for further consideration of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. I call on Marja Lubeck to make her valedictory statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u00221d0b3867fc2f4bd2b20c4f979310c60c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d0b3867fc2f4bd2b20c4f979310c60c\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Raurangatira m\u0101, t\u0113nei te mihi ki a koutou i runga i te kaupapa o te r\u0101. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E[To the many esteemed leaders here today, this is my convivial greeting to you on the subject that has brought us together. Thank you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EAnd in the legendary words of my colleague, \u201Cg\u2019day\u201D. Wh\u0101nau, comrades, friends, and frenemies, it\u2019s humbling to see you all here. Even though I\u2019ve risen to speak more than 300 times since the first time I got up, I\u2019m still standing in this House with a sense of wonder at the sheer privilege of having had this opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EI didn\u2019t expect to stand up here, when I was asked in 2017 to help get the party vote out for Labour in Rodney. I remember Tolley told me that I could get a bit of an idea what it was all about, and, if I liked it, who knows what would have happened in 2020 or 2023. Well, mate, who would have thought that here in 2023, I would have served two terms as an MP, and that, I\u2019m told, is about the average time for an MP to serve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBut there was nothing average about the last six years. A lot has happened between 2017 and 2023. It was a privilege to serve in the Labour team during some incredibly tough times that our nation went through. I am for ever grateful for how the then Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern led New Zealand\u2019s response to March 15, COVID, and other challenges. Together as a society and with very special leadership, so many lives were saved during the worst pandemic in a century, where other countries could not. But despite the challenges, these were also six years where lots of progress was made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EIf I may sound like an advertisement just for a moment, I\u2019m a proud member of a team that from day one started to tackle those long-term challenges in New Zealand, strengthening workers\u2019 rights, massively building our apprentices workforce, increasing the minimum wage, and addressing gender pay discrimination. From making abortion a health issue and giving women choice, we\u2019re building more houses than any Government since the 1970s to taking action on climate change\u2014and everything in between. Now, in the Chris Hipkins - led Government, our team continues that mahi, focused on building back better\u2014what our finance Minister always refers to as \u201Cthe silver lining on the darkest of clouds\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBut I couldn\u2019t have known that was going to happen, when I started my first speech in this House in 2017. It was for the most about a topic that I was then and am now passionate about: workers\u2019 rights. I spoke about the decline I had witnessed over so many years of working conditions for hard-working Kiwis; the erosion of longstanding protections. It was a main motivator for me to start my law degree at 44 so that I could better serve my fellow union members. It was after that speech in 2017, which was so heavily dominated by a topic that I knew so well, that someone said to me that I wasn\u2019t trying to be all things to all people. What I didn\u2019t know yet was that being an MP means being all things to all people, especially when you\u2019re an MP for your communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThere is this misconception that as a list MP we don\u2019t make positive changes in our area. But one of the most rewarding parts of the job has been advocating for the communities of, first, Rodney and, after the rezoning, Kaipara ki Mahurangi and Whangapar\u0101oa. I won\u2019t have time to tell the stories of the many people that came through our office over the years, but I\u2019m proud of all we have achieved in the area. Some issues had been languishing for years and decades and I was able to advocate, on behalf of the communities, for investment in our schools, the restoration of the Mahurangi River, and, of course, Penlink. We are the first Government that put actual funding with the promise to build\u2014so thank you, transport Ministers Phil Twyford and Michael Wood, for listening to the communities and committing that $830 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EMy Warkworth office has served not just constituents but hundreds of businesses and community organisations. The staff in our electorate offices are unsung heroes. Alan, you\u2019ve been my steady force in the electorate office, a source of infinite knowledge. You were joined a couple of years ago by Tania, community outreach extraordinaire. Here in Parliament, Nick, you made my first term so much easier. My time on the 11th floor of Bowen House was probably my happiest time in this place. Yes, Jan and Aupito probably played a large part in that, and Nina and her cooking. Eva, Jack, Laura, Christine, thank you for holding the fort at different times. A special mention of our roving support team\u2014especially Wendy these last couple of months, you\u2019ve been invaluable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EWhen I first started, I found out the hard way that without a job description what you can take on is pretty much limitless. The responsibilities of representation weigh heavily, the hours are long, and the work is endless. It\u2019s all-consuming, and it\u2019s difficult to accept that you can\u2019t do everything. It\u2019s challenging to manage work and personal life in that environment\u2014I did try. Early on, I joined one of the walking groups, there were two at the time, one with Ruth Dyson and one was Kris Faafoi. Ruth already had a few members in her team, so I thought I\u2019d go with Kris; except, many months later, I found out that this particular walking group was for those who don\u2019t like walking. So if anyone needs a brand new pair of sneakers, size seven, come and see me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s just after 7 a.m. in the Netherlands, so if my parents are awake, it\u2019s the first morning with internet in their new home. It\u2019s a big thing to shift out of your family home after 51 years, and Papa and Mama, I\u2019m so proud of you. Thank you for your unconditional love and the sacrifices you made for us. It has been especially difficult being away from you these last few years. On the topic of thanks, also a big shout-out to my sister Petra, her husband Herman, and my nephews, Mike and Lars, because this wouldn\u2019t have happened without you. I\u2019ve been privileged that the sacrifice of my family has enabled me to give it my best. I\u2019ve been away so much and absent, even when I was home. I tried the best I could, but Shane and Max, I know at times I let our wh\u0101nau slip way too far down the list of priorities, and I\u2019m sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThank you, Max, for all those messages you send me. It always brings a smile to my face when I read \u201CMum, have you eaten?\u201D And, Shane, you worked so hard taking care of the rest of life, and I know your body suffers. When you broke your leg, things got even harder, and you had to miss out on being here today. It\u2019s been anything but plain sailing, but you were and always will be my best friend\u2014thank you for always letting me do what I needed to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESome of that involved creating tighter connections with Dutch and Indonesian communities so that they feel represented in Parliament. Being the first Dutch-born MP from Indonesian descent, I have seen it as my role creating tighter connections with those communities. To the ambassadors, leaders, members of the communities, thank you for your manaakitanga, welcoming me into your spaces. Dank je wel and terima kasih for your support for me. With our phenomenal and largest ever ethnic caucus, you\u2019ll be in good hands, but I\u2019m planning to stay in touch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESpeaking several languages has come in handy\u2014I\u2019ve always had a thing with languages. When I first came to New Zealand, I was helping out another immigrant worker with some English lessons, and we joked between us that she was possibly the only Chinese woman in New Zealand who spoke English with a Dutch accent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been a privilege to co-chair the New Zealand - Europe cross-party group, building on our relationships and sharing best practices with MPs from other countries. A lot of that occurred over Zoom\u2014especially during COVID; that was the way to keep in touch. Zoom meetings have their own challenges, and I\u2019m sure everybody is well aware of that, but none took such an unexpected turn as our first Zoom with Lithuanian MPs. Halfway through, one of them abruptly disconnected from a meeting with the words: \u201CGot to go, the Russians are coming.\u201D Now, this was 10 November 2021, and we now know it was not just an excuse to leave the meeting early, but it was an early sign of what was to come. We were able to show our support for the Baltics when we were the first New Zealand delegation to visit Lithuania, in July 2022. As the EU Ambassador, Nina Obermaier, has said, \u201Calthough New Zealand is distant geographically, from the very start, New Zealand has stood shoulder to shoulder with Europe in solidarity with Ukraine\u201D. New Zealand\u2019s support was acknowledged and appreciated by all the Parliaments we visited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EAnother great privilege was being welcomed as an ally in the rainbow community, and in 2018, I got to know a fierce activist called Amanda Ashley. Her Rodney Rainbow petition, combined with the one from Young Labour and Young Greens, collected more than 20,000 signatures. A long story short, I\u2019ve been blessed to have had the privilege to be part of the kaupapa to ban conversion practices. We\u2019ll never know the specific individuals whose lives were impacted by this legislation, but we do know that the world is a safer place for it. Thank you to everyone who\u2019s doing the mahi to protect particularly our rangatahi against the dangers of prejudice, discrimination, and intimidation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s more work to do, but there\u2019s also a lot of good stuff happening. It doesn\u2019t always get the airtime it deserves, and that should change because it\u2019s so much easier to give people hope by showing them the positive initiatives and the wins\u2014that there are a lot of people in this place who care and are working hard to make things better. They often give until there\u2019s nothing left in the tank to give, and that is a story worth telling. But in the era of social media, clickbait, and the 40-minute news cycle, trolling and rampant misinformation, it feels, at times, that it\u2019s not the good stories that make the headlines. I wish politicians and media could stop their focus on catching people out with perceived or real slip-ups\u2014or 10-year-old tweets for that matter. Feeling powerless witnessing the take-down of some of my colleagues over the years has been the source of my greatest frustration. That, and possibly the change of the breakfast menu in Copperfield\u2019s!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ENow, this is obviously an adversarial environment, and I\u2019ve done my fair share of heckling. Jason Walls, you called it: I spoke my mind. Because you know what they say: \u201CMany people are too polite to be honest, while the Dutch are too honest to be polite.\u201D But as one of my colleagues said, politicians are not prey, and that is how it feels to me at times\u2014preying on the imperfections. We are not robots; we are humans\u2014good people, doing our best, often to the detriment of our personal lives. If we could just make the political and media culture less toxic, I think we\u2019d make a lot more progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve loved being part of my Labour wh\u0101nau in Parliament. Thank you to so many of you for your kindness, friendship, and support. Ministers who, no matter how busy, gave their time, including one, often referred to as \u201CChippy\u201D, who always made you feel listened to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThe awesome class of 2020: having you on our delegation, Rachel, was just the best thing. To my mates from the class of 2017, I\u2019m going to miss you so much. In a place where you need to feel someone has your back, we\u2019ve always had each other\u2019s. I felt aroha at times when I felt lonely, overwhelmed, or I needed a sense check. It has definitely prevented some serious mishaps on Twitter! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ETaking this time to reflect, I realise that what I will miss most is working with so many good, decent people, all different, but with a common goal of making New Zealand the best it can be. Lots of our changes are working towards that. I\u2019ll mention a few\u2014actually, I\u2019ll mention one, because I\u2019m running out of time. Cut, cut, cut, I\u2019m not the National Party\u2014oh, sorry!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EFair pay agreements: thank you, Michael Wood, for your determination. We need to keep going with ensuring people have fair pay, decent conditions, and a voice in the workplace. We are investing in our people and the economy, and fair pay agreements are part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve loved being chair of the Education and Workforce Committee. It\u2019s a privilege to hear from submitters and to deal with legislation that often can have such a profound effect on people\u2019s lives and that of their families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESo many people have been part of my journey, providing me with friendship and mentoring\u2014and sometimes unsolicited advice. There are few of you here, but there are too many to name. But I\u2019ll give it a go. Susan and Des, always there right from the start. Thank you; I owe you. Also for the jacket\u2014Dunedin op shop. Sorry, Colin, I know you\u2019re watching\u2014say hi to Peggy and Hueline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EI acknowledge our formidable Labour electorate committee (LEC) chair, Hugh, and the Kaipara ki Mahurangi team Andrew, Guy, Neil, Olga, Mike, Robert and Pauline, Mike, Boudine for the cooking and baking for our meetings. Kura, Judy, Adam, Janine, Brad, Sam, Nisha, Brad, Dev, Marina, Ken, Rewa, Derek, Alan, and Joy. The Whangapar\u0101oa LEC, Gabrielle, Tanja, Ernie and Velma, Glen and Nobu. James, you were only 13 when we met in 2017. Shane, our chief hoarding. Ann and Mike, Eric and Lane, Eanna, Scott and Dean for helping me at the markets. Greg and Cherie for the many elegant events held at your place. David and the late Mary at Herons Flight for your hospitality and support. Colin and Jeff\u2014always making me feel good about myself and I\u2019m counting on my parliamentary colleagues to make sure that Colin Morley Couture continues showing off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EYoung Labour: your enthusiasm and energy is contagious\u2014keep it up. E t\u016B, my union, Council of Trade Unions, and representatives of affiliated unions present here today: you\u2019ve been at the forefront of fighting for better pay and better working conditions. Thank you for your support of me and for my hinerangi. I\u2019ll treasure my taonga for ever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ETo clerk Edward Siebert for making the select committee job so much easier. Thank you to everyone who runs Parliament. There\u2019s just too many of you to mention. But you\u2019re all awesome, and we could not do it without you. And, of course, the Labour Party leadership and everyone in it, for you are these words: you\u2019re phenomenal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EOne of the biggest compliments I received in this place is that I haven\u2019t changed from the day I entered Parliament, and while that can\u2019t be entirely true, I do leave with the values I entered Parliament with and I still hold dear\u2014in particular, relentless optimism and compassion for people. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014E t\u016B kahikatea\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u00222b7a607fe0ff41eda79a363d3cf2bca0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b7a607fe0ff41eda79a363d3cf2bca0\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to speak in this House for a final time. My journey to Parliament began in 2014 when I stood in the Taup\u014D electorate, alongside yourself, Mr Speaker. And I remember phone calling the Labour Party stronghold of Cambridge! I made 30 calls\u201430 National Party voters on the end of the line. I soon realised I would need to develop a thick skin in order to become an MP. In 2017, I stood in the Hamilton East electorate under the leadership of Jacinda Ardern in the \u201CLet\u2019s do this\u201D wave. I entered Parliament on the list\u2014snuck in with a few other of my colleagues. Then in 2020, I won the Hamilton East electorate\u2014first time a Labour candidate had won it since Dianne Yates in 2002; something I\u2019ll always treasure. Now, in 2023, I move on with my family into new fields of endeavour and community service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to begin by acknowledging my family: Angela, Jack, Brooklyn, Chloe, Charlotte\u2014also our three cats: Holly, Snowy, and Sparkles. I may well be the first MP to put their cats in Hansard. Thank you for your support. I couldn\u2019t have served in this way without you. Ange, we\u2019ve been best friends during our 27 years of marriage, and I\u2019m super proud of all the work that you are doing to serve our Waikato region. To our children, for the times that we\u2019ve been out and about and I\u2019ve started talking with people and probably talked too long, the times I\u2019ve been in Wellington and missed some of your activities, but mainly for putting up with an oversized photo of my face on our Toyota Estima for six years\u2014never give up on your dreams. You can achieve anything, and mum and dad are always there for you. To my wider family in Nelson, Perth, Hamilton, and my sister Chelsea who is here today in the gallery, thank you for your support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EBeing an MP is a community role. The more I ponder this word \u201Ccommunity\u201D, I settle on the fact that everything we do is community, whether it\u2019s education, health, housing, sports, arts, politics, business. It became very vivid to me when I recently heard a couple of local CEOs in Hamilton. They were talking about who would get the contract for a project. And one of them said to the other one \u201CWell, it doesn\u2019t really matter which one of us gets the project, the money\u2019s all going back into the community anyway.\u201D And they were right, because whether it goes back in wages, whether it goes back to support for various organisations for schools, everything we do, everything we have here is community. It\u2019s about connection. And most of the problems in our society today can be traced back to people becoming disconnected. The more we can foster that connection, the better we\u2019ll be as a society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EParliament is not about us MPs; it\u2019s about our open and liberal democracy. I remember someone say to me once that as an MP, you enter Parliament; it\u2019s like diving into a swimming pool. You\u2019re in the pool for a while, you hop out, the water covers over, and it was like you were never there. Because we have a strong democracy in New Zealand, it\u2019s important that we continue to foster that democracy. It\u2019s very important that our jobs do not define us. If our jobs define us, we can often have perverse outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EParliament is a difficult place to get into. In fact, there have been more male All Blacks than MPs. My first option was All Black, but far too small for that! However, it\u2019s also a difficult place to leave. How do we measure the success of an MP? Is it longevity? Is it impact? Is it favourability ratings? I\u2019d like to suggest that we ask those closest to us\u2014we ask our partners, we ask our children, we ask our key local leaders. They\u2019ll give us an honest answer of our performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI believe we need a four-year term in Parliament to allow Governments time to fully implement the policies that they went to the electorate on. I acknowledge we don\u2019t have an Upper House and there\u2019ll be questions around not having enough checks and balances for four years, but I believe that we are mature enough as a country to take on the four-year term. We have a stable democratic system that I believe could handle that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EPoliticians are public figures\u2014we know that. We get into this job and we understand that. But often, particularly around social media, people tend to turn politicians into an object rather than a person. There have been many times, particularly early on in my career, when people have shared their views on social media and I\u2019ve commented and I\u2019ve said, \u201CLook. Book in a meeting.\u201D, and I\u2019m actually genuine, but none of them book in a meeting. So I\u2019d encourage everyone out there who\u2019s listening: please feel free to make your comments, that\u2019s our free and open democracy, but also meet with MPs\u2014meet with us, talk with us; we\u2019re open-minded people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EWe must continue to monitor the benefits of social media to our society and the purpose of this medium\u2014we need to keep a close eye on it. I look forward to scaling back my social media presence and simply posting the odd random 1980s cricket video every couple of months. That gets a maximum of two likes: one from my father and the other from parliamentary staffer Peter Hoare, whose cricket blog \u201CMy Life in Cricket Scorecards\u201D I highly recommend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EIn 2019, the parliamentary cricket 11 took a trip to the UK, paid for by corporate sponsors and individual MPs. And while we were there, we contested the Inter-Parliamentary Cricket World Cup. We got thrashed in the world cup. But I remember attending the 2019 world cup final at Lord\u2019s that we did not lose\u2014I just want to put that on Hansard too! Ha, ha! I think that\u2019s important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EIn April 2021, I remember playing for the parliamentary 11 at Seddon Park in Hamilton, and we played the Seddon Cricket Club. I was pretty nervous coming into bowl, because this was my childhood dream\u2014to play on Seddon Park. And I just remember thinking, just pitch the ball in a good length outside off-stump. It\u2019s all you\u2019re trying to do. And I bowled it. The first batter got a single. The next batter came on strike\u2014it was this batter\u2019s first ball\u2014bowled it, swung, and I thought I heard a faint edge, and I turned around and looked at the umpire and appealed, and he said \u201CThat\u2019s out.\u201D I was, like, yes! Saw my name up on the scoreboard. However, we got into the team huddle and I distinctively remember our co-captain, Chris Bishop, looking at me going \u201CJamie, he was the sponsor of this event.\u201D And I got him out first ball! It was CEO Cam Wallace, MediaWorks\u2019 CEO Cam Wallace, as some of you will know. He\u2019d actually paid $5,000 for that event and I suitably felt pretty bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EOn the theme of sport, in 2023, our parliamentary football 11\u2014we visited Brisbane and we played Australia, and I\u2019d like to acknowledge my co-captain David Bennett here. Last time we played Australia we hadn\u2019t won, so David and I were determined to win this game. We were leading one nil with five minutes to go and the Australians got a break. I could tell this guy was quick and I knew we were in trouble. However, all of a sudden from nowhere, David Bennett came flying in and just wiped out an Australian MP, and David was standing over the top of him and the guy was sharing his views about the tackle. I came across and David looked at me and he said \u201CI had to do it.\u201D He\u2019s right; he did. And we held on and we won the game.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EIn fact, every time I visit Australia I often ponder the thought: will we ever become one country, Australia and New Zealand? My personal view, and it\u2019s only a personal view, is that New Zealanders shouldn\u2019t rule that out. There would certainly be economic benefits, economies of scale in the private and public sector, opening ALDI stores on our shores. In fact, technically the option remains open for New Zealand to join Australia under their constitution. The main problem I foresee, though, is: how do we integrate the Australian cricket team? But we conquered Everest, so you never know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank a few people. I\u2019d like to thank our Prime Minister, Chris Hipkins. You\u2019re a very secure leader and that\u2019s often quite rare in leadership. And I feel like I\u2019m someone who has been a student of leadership over many years. I\u2019d like to acknowledge that about you. You\u2019re not afraid of having hard conversations. You have tremendous respect for the institution of Parliament and upholding our democracy and you understand the everyday New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ETo all of the party leaders in this House, those who have served during my time and the current leaders, Chris Luxon and James Shaw, Marama Davidson, David Seymour, Rawiri Waititi whom I stood in Parliament for in 2014, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: servant leadership is a sacrifice and I acknowledge the sacrifice that you\u2019re all making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EClass of 2017 members from Labour: thank you for your friendship and support over the years, and also class of 2017 members from the other parties. We\u2019re forever bonded as the group that entered this House in 2017 to do our bit for our country. I\u2019ll miss you all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ETo my Hamilton office colleague Nanaia Mahuta: thank you for your advice over the years. You\u2019re an inspirational leader and you\u2019ve served the Hauraki-Waikato region with passion and empathy. We\u2019ve shared an office for six years in Hamilton, but due to our busy schedules we have only spent one day in the office together and that was the opening. But she helped me share the cost, which is helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge a couple of other people. I\u2019d like to knowledge my good friend Paul Eagle, the champion of the Chathams. If we tallied up how much Government funding each MP has attracted for areas of their electorate, per capita, Paul Eagle would win hands down. And I\u2019m convinced that council passed a bylaw to ensure that the only mugs allowed on the Chatham Islands are Paul Eagle mugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge the Hon David Bennett. I have huge respect for you and the work that you\u2019ve done in Hamilton since 2005 as a member of Parliament. I\u2019m confident you\u2019ve knocked on more doors than any other MP in the history of this House. And I know that because when I used to knock on doors, people would say, \u201COh yeah, David was here last week. I\u2019ve been waiting for you to pop by.\u201D I\u2019d also like to acknowledge the work you did on the expressway. That, I know, will be one of your legacies, and it\u2019s significant in terms of the Hamilton to Auckland corridor and the growth in our region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge key Hamilton parliamentary staff: Ray Stevens, Tom Rowland, Dan Steer, who are all in the gallery, and also Melissa White. Thank you for your support, your reliability, hard work, and for serving the people of Hamilton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge my MP gym buddies; you know who you are\u2014I\u2019m looking around the room.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251caa90630f34aa98892e9c20b45a0f0\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll miss you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee4b039471734220859d4d97d1486d23\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014Rawiri. I\u2019ll miss you too, Rawiri. My children, whom I love, particularly love the parliamentary pool, but I\u2019d like to take this moment to apologise for all the manus performed in the parliamentary pool\u2014and also those done by my children as well!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EOne of my main goals was to attract Government investment into the Hamilton and the Waikato region, and I did have a list here but I\u2019m running out of time. But there have been a number of significant projects that this Government has invested in, and these projects are absolutely vital for the Hamilton community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge my parliamentary colleagues who have regularly attended the parliamentary prayer meeting for the past six years. Thank you for your support, love, and friendship. Our prayer group is a sea of peace and tranquillity in the hustle and bustle of Parliament life. And thank you to David and Russell for your service to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to close with a prayer:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod of Nations at Thy feet,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EIn the bonds of love we meet,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EHear our voices, we entreat,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend our free land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGuard Pacific\u2019s triple star\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EFrom the shafts of strife and war,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EMake her praises heard afar,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EMen of every creed and race,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGather here before Thy face,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAsking Thee to bless this place,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend our free land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EFrom dissension, envy, hate,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAnd corruption guard our State,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EMake our country good and great,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EPeace, not war, shall be our boast,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EBut, should foes assail our coast,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EMake us then a mighty host,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend our free land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ELord of battles in Thy might,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EPut our enemies to flight,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ELet our cause be just and right,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ELet our love for Thee increase, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EMay Thy blessings never cease,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGive us plenty, give us peace,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend our free land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EFrom dishonour and from shame,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGuard our country\u2019s spotless name,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ECrown her with immortal fame,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EMay our mountains ever be\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EFreedom\u2019s ramparts on the sea,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EMake us faithful unto Thee,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend our free land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGuide her in the nations\u2019 van,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EPreaching love and truth to man,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EWorking out Thy glorious plan,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EGod defend New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E[Applause, hongi, and harir\u016B]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u00222949f921144947a9bbb4825813d8695b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222949f921144947a9bbb4825813d8695b\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E E te whare e t\u016B nei, t\u0101tou o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou i \u014D t\u0101tou tini mate, r\u0101tou kua huri ki te p\u014D, kaore e h\u0101 ko Kara Puketapu, t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 pou e noho mahana tonu ki roto i ng\u0101 whakaaro. N\u0101 reira tangihia r\u0101tou te hunga mate. Hoki mai ki a t\u0101tou, \u014D r\u0101tou n\u0101 morehu ki muri nei, kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ETe \u0100tiawa Taranaki Wh\u0101nui, te iwi taketake o t\u0113nei w\u0101hi, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Kei te mihi ake ki a Ahumairangi, te maunga whakah\u012B o t\u0113nei rohe. Kei te mihi hoki ki te moana o Te Whanganui-a-Tara e papaki mai nei. Ki taku rohe k\u0101inga o Rongotai me te iwi e whai p\u0101nga ana ki reira t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 hoki koutou ng\u0101 iwi o Whare Kauri, R\u0113kohu, Ng\u0101ti Mutunga, Moriori, anei t\u0113nei o pononga e mihi nei ki a koutou. E te P\u012Bka, Adrian, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e pupuri nei i te mauri o te Whare. E ng\u0101 mema P\u0101remata, otir\u0101 ng\u0101 kaitautoko hoki o t\u0113nei Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora huihui mai nei t\u0101tou katoa, kia ora, kia orana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E[To the House that stands here, and us who are of the House, greetings to us all. Greetings to us and to our loved ones who have departed to the spirit world, including Kara Puketapu, that pillar that remains warm in our thoughts. And so we grieve for them who have passed away. And to return back to us the descendants who are left behind, hello to us all.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ETe \u0100tiawa Taranaki Wh\u0101nui, the indigenous people of this land greetings to you all. I acknowledge Ahumairangi, the illustrious mountain. I acknowledge the sea of Te Whanganui-a-Tara. To my hometown of Rongotai and the local tribe who have interest there, acknowledgements to you also. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EGreetings also to the people of Whare Kauri, R\u0113kohu, Ng\u0101ti Mutunga and Moriori, I stand here as your servant to acknowledge you as well. To the Speaker, Adrian, thank you for holding intact the life essence of our House, and to the Members of Parliament, as well as the staff of this House, greetings to all of us assembled here, hello, hello.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EI rise one last time in this House. I rise one last time to pay tribute to members past and present, and those yet to be elected. I rise one last time to honour the invisible hands that make this great House function. The cooks and the cleaners, the clerks and the couriers, the security guards and switchboard operators, the techies and tradies. Without all of you, this boarding school for older kids simply wouldn\u2019t work. So thank you all for your manaakitanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ELess than six years ago, I delivered my maiden speech as a message to my son, Tamarangi. I promised him that I would be the best dad that I could be, that I would be a strong representative for the people of Rongotai, and that I would change our adoption laws so that thousands of people like him\u2014and me\u2014would know our whakapapa, our identity. Now, I\u2019ve tried hard to keep those promises, but it will be for Tamarangi and others to decide if that\u2019s true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EIt might come as a surprise to many that my election night success in September 2017 was a bittersweet moment: sweet because I was the first M\u0101ori man to win a general seat for Labour in more than 100 years; bitter because I was giving up the deputy mayoralty of Wellington with the daunting task of filling Annette King\u2019s very large shoes. People who know Dame Annette will understand what I\u2019m talking about. It goes without saying that I owe a debt of gratitude to Annette and her husband Ray. I want to also acknowledge former party leader Andrew Little for opening the door for my bid to stand in Rongotai\u2014kia ora, Anaru. Your belief in me paved the way for me to become an MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ENow, some people think I came late into politics; the truth is, I was born into it, as my parents\u2014who are watching from hospital, unfortunately\u2014will attest. My dad was a Methodist minister for some 50 years who was heavily involved in the Labour movement. Mum, Judith, was a health worker who believed in community service. During my childhood our house was always full of visitors who came to talk about politics and social justice issues, and it was the same at church and party fundraising events alike. At one point I did say to Dad, \u201CWhat is the difference between the church and the Labour Party?\u201D I can\u2019t remember the response, but there was talk of stopping the Dawn Raids, about apartheid in South Africa, and old stories about standing up to nuclear testing at Mururoa. These conversations seeped into me and influenced my thinking. They also helped shape my values and my politics, and those were values around honesty, integrity, authenticity, and approachability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EIn the spring of 2017, my first campaign for Rongotai was going very well. My favourite opponent was the fearless Christopher Finlayson and at our first public debate I found it interesting that we mainly talked about the Chatham Islands, where he had done a lot of early work on the Treaty settlement for the Moriori and Ng\u0101ti Mutunga. At subsequent meetings, the crowds used to get quite testy\u2014until my opponent at one of the meetings reassured everyone that if he unexpectedly won the seat, he would call for the recount. We got on pretty well after that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ELike the workers in Parliament, the activities of an electorate MP, as Jamie Strange has said, are often invisible. Our contribution is not measured in policy announcements, the passing of new laws, or the amount of column inches we generate. The work is done quite often in the humble suburbs of the electorate where local issues dominate, where constituents get help to find a job, a new home, a visa, or some funding for their school project, or help to understand a letter from the council or Government agency. But these are but a fraction of the many hundreds of issues that, as an electorate MP, I love to solve. And it\u2019s been certainly a privilege to represent constituents who grapple, with difficulty, with such matters that affect their daily lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EAs you\u2019ve heard\u2014and as some people say\u2014one of the joys of being the MP for Rongotai is that I\u2019m also the MP for the 660 residents of the Chatham Islands and their diaspora on the mainland here and around the world. To our Chatham wh\u0101nau here today, mayor Monique Croon, councillors, chief executive Owen Pickles, Ng\u0101ti Mutunga\u2019s Deena Whaitiri and Gail Amaru, our Moriori wh\u0101nau here, and the island fishing community represented by Pita Thomas\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EI have to say, each year, the Chathams have this annual big festival, and I wanted to have a Labour stall there. I saw all these blue tents and I thought, \u201CI must get a red tent in there somewhere.\u201D So I talked to the event organiser, Alexandra Hind, and said, \u201CLook, I\u2019ve got this idea.\u201D She said, \u201CYep, no problem.\u201D But I just needed some heavy hitters to run the stall. So thankfully I found two people: the self-anointed selfie queen Anahila Kanongata\u2019a and the Women\u2019s Weekly cover man T\u0101mati Coffey, who agreed to willingly help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EWe had a wonderful time. We met the locals and it came time to leave. But unfortunately, the plane broke down. This was normal, but with no mobile or internet coverage, we couldn\u2019t even contact the whip\u2019s office to say we weren\u2019t coming home for three days. But also at this stage, T\u0101mati had developed a sore foot and got a quick health check, which we all agreed just to keep on the down low. As he hobbled back down the hill to our accommodation, only a couple of minutes away, where the hotel manager innocently asked with a big smile \u201CHow\u2019s the gout, T\u0101mati?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m pleased to say we did help get them a mobile phone network on the Chathams. We extended the runway and brought them into the jet age and will soon lower their power bills with renewable energy generation. These investments were made possible thanks to the previous Labour - New Zealand First Government under the Provincial Growth Fund, which enabled Chatham Islanders to get the same basic services we sometimes take for granted here on the mainland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, one of my main goals was to change our 1955 Adoption Act. While we didn\u2019t quite complete the reform during my time, the groundwork has been laid. I believe the next Parliament will bring the law into the 21st century, and I acknowledge Andrew Little again here. Members from across the House, I believe, recognise now that every New Zealander deserves to know who they are, where they are from, and not have to wait 20 years to know who gave birth to them, as happened to me. I do want to acknowledge my birth father, Jack; birth mother, Madeline; together with my birth sisters who are here\u2014two of them\u2014Lorraine and Courtney. Thank you for inspiring me to make those changes that, I reassure you, will come very soon. I look forward to the new legislation that will ensure the needs of the child are at the centre of any adoption. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EOne of the privileges afforded to backbench MPs is the member\u2019s bill, and I was fortunate enough to promote such a bill with the support and guidance of Nanaia Mahuta when she held the local government portfolio. The bill sought simply to reinstate the four wellbeings to the Local Government Act and it became a Government bill. Thank you, Nanaia, for your insights and leadership there too. Also, alongside Nanaia, I want to personally thank Peeni Henare and Rino Tirikatene for their perspectives, and all the members of Labour\u2019s M\u0101ori caucus for their support. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e ng\u0101 rangatira.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EI want to also thank my Samoan uncle and good friend Aupito William Sio, who rang me from Samoa\u2014well, it sounded like it was Samoa\u2014and who has watched over me ever since we first met in Manukau City some 20 years ago. But I\u2019m truly grateful for his friendship and wisdom. Fa\u2018afetai tele lava e le avanoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ENo valedictory is complete without acknowledging those who have contributed to my time in this Whare. Luamanuvao Dame Winnie Laban is one of them, with Dr Peter Swain for their unwavering support for many years. The Greater Wellington City Council chairman Daran Ponter, who helped keep me grounded when I got too big for my boots. I\u2019m sorry for harassing you about our city bus service constantly, but thank you, Daran. I thank all my support staff, volunteers, and helpers. These are the unpaid people who do so much and have done so much. Rita Evans, Taylor Arneil, Lauren Woolley, Dominic Shaheen, Kirsty Carre, Ray Tuffin, and Candice Russell. Louie Encabo, Tawhai Johnson, Sera Benseman, and Melissa White\u2014and how could I forget the 30-year plus veteran, my super loyal volunteer, Robin Boldarin. You are all amazing and have gone above and beyond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EThere is one staffer who deserves special mention. He has been my electorate office manager, media minder, trusted adviser, MC, event organiser, ordained Anglican vicar, occasional bus driver, and salt-of-the-earth character\u2014up there in yellow and black stripes\u2014my wingman, the Rev. Brian Dawson. Thank you, Brian. I also acknowledge the Rongotai Labour electorate committee chairs Bob Mason, Jo Spratt, and Maryan Street, who will continue the work leading our local Labour members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EBut of course there\u2019s one person who won\u2019t be there to keep the electorate humming anymore, and that\u2019s my wife Miriam. Without you, there would be no parliamentary career, there would be no political representation, and certainly no public service. You\u2019ve been there through the thick and thin, the good times and the bad. We\u2019ve had lots of good times, though, haven\u2019t we? But thank you for everything. I love you and I appreciate all that you do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EIn closing, I have one wish, and that\u2019s to urge our future parliamentarians to rise above petty politics. Let\u2019s see what unites rather than divides us\u2014to know that pragmatism is not a dirty word. I believe we fundamentally sort of agree on most issues, but politics sometimes gets in the way from us seeing that. Everyone knows that a divided House is a recipe for failure, but a House underpinned by kotahitanga is a foundation for success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EAlthough I am stepping down from the political stage, I leave here with a full tank\u2014or a fully charged battery, as I have to say now. I\u2019ve got lots more to give and there\u2019s lots more work to do. Community service is in my DNA, which means I will continue to be a servant of the people. Can I thank my Labour colleagues? N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou me rongo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E[Applause, hongi, and harir\u016B]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014Te Aroha\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.48 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d341bddfe2549e3be19c971a8bf883a\u0022\u003EEstimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ee930fd1424414285907cc09276fe82\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000518\u0022\u003EDebate resumed on the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002233a62e07a37e4578a33652a2dc4a72c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233a62e07a37e4578a33652a2dc4a72c0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. When we suspended, we were debating the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. There are 28 minutes remaining in the debate. New Zealand Labour has 10 minutes remaining, New Zealand National has seven minutes remaining, ACT New Zealand has eight minutes remaining, the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has 11 minutes remaining, Te Paati M\u0101ori has four minutes remaining, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere has six minutes remaining, the Hon Meka Whaitiri has six minutes remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMembers, we now have the Minister of Transport. The Minister is available from 7.30 until the end of the time allocated for the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1bee9d139344b7eb60905b8b53c27ba\u0022\u003ETransport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002259cdb895c6d6492e81fd6b49f96006ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259cdb895c6d6492e81fd6b49f96006ad\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Chairperson of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s my privilege to chair the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and work collegially with our colleagues from across the House throughout this Estimates process. Can I also acknowledge the Minister of Transport, the Hon David Parker, who stepped into the role as Minister just days prior to coming before our committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EVote Transport comprises funding for infrastructure investment, services, and regulatory activities related to transport in Aotearoa New Zealand. In 2023/24, the total sought for Vote Transport is $10.115 billion. The largest element of the Vote is funding for the National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) through the National Land Transport Fund. In 2023/24, $3 billion is appropriated for the NLTP, and this funding is drawn from the land transport revenue and is detailed in the appropriations \u201CNational Land Transport Programme PLA\u201D and \u201CNational Land Transport Programme Additional Crown Funding (2021-24)\u201D. The five largest activity classes under this are the State highway improvements, approximately $1 billion; public transport services and infrastructure, $778 million; State highway maintenance, $496 million; local road maintenance, $425\u00A0million; and Road to Zero safety infrastructure, $182 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe focus for Estimates this year, as I understand it, as presented to our select committee, is to tackle congestion and reduce emissions, and I appreciate the contribution that the Minister has made throughout this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00228408d7ea00e04983bfabc540761ea4fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228408d7ea00e04983bfabc540761ea4fe\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for the opportunity to take a short call on these Estimates. One of the questions I\u2019ve got for the Minister, of course, is relating to this Government\u2019s so-called transformational transport programme, which in particular relates to Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving and Auckland light rail. Of course, this Government was elected in 2017 and said that Auckland light rail would be built to Mount Roskill by 2021. I frequently go down Dominion Road, but I\u2019m yet to see any evidence of that. But the question I\u2019ve got in relation to the Estimates is: what is going to be achieved for Auckland light rail and Let\u2019s Get Wellington moving during the Estimates period, the 2023/24 Estimates for Vote Transport? What is planned to happen for those two projects during the Estimates period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Government talks a big game when it comes to transport. They cancelled the roads of national significance to build light rail in Auckland and Wellington, but we\u2019re yet to see any delivery. Well, there has been delivery in Wellington; they built the pedestrian crossing. Who knew that a pedestrian crossing could cost $2.5 million and that you need half a million dollars for consultants for a pedestrian crossing? Clearly, no one at the New Zealand Transport Agency remembers how to build a pedestrian crossing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo I look forward to the Minister answering to the House what will be delivered for Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving and Auckland light rail during the 2023/24 Estimates period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e468f115ba564183ac1cf014d00e9b98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e468f115ba564183ac1cf014d00e9b98\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. I found that contribution from the previous member Simeon Brown quite interesting, because when I worked as a transport consultant in 2008, a common cost at the time known to all engineers was that the cost of upgrading to a signalised intersection was $4 million. So in 2023\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270dc496f96f84ff48a8b235a20826fdd\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not even an intersection. It\u2019s a pedestrian crossing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd0f432ff549465baa0973955a488d17\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s actually signalised\u2014it has signals, Mr Brown. I\u2019m not sure if you\u2019ve seen it, but it does have signals. It is a signalised intersection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAnyway, I think that this debate shows the pathetic-ness of the state of the transport debate in New Zealand. It\u2019s absolutely outrageous that in 2023 the National Party, the ACT Party, and the Labour Party are competing to see who can spend more money on new motorways that have incredibly high carbon emissions just in building them. But the worst part is they won\u2019t even address the very problem that they\u2019re supposed to solve, and by now, in 2023, we have enough evidence\u2014we literally have 70 years of evidence\u2014that urban motorways do not reduce congestion and that relying on high car ownership poses an enormous fiscal cost and burden on households. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThis is related to the Estimates, Mr Chair, because Simeon Brown from the Opposition party recently said that he thought the countries with the best roads in the world were Hong Kong, Singapore, the Netherlands, Sweden, and Switzerland. Those are all countries that have lower cars per capita than New Zealand\u2014significantly lower, in many cases\u2014and have lower vehicle kilometres travelled per capita. So I want to know, Minister, in the decisions that were made around the Estimates and in recent announcements by the Labour Government, if the goal of reducing vehicle kilometres travelled was taken into account in any way in the analysis of the proposals around the second harbour crossing. If the Minister could tell us that, it would be very useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut I do feel that I have to elucidate for the other parties in this House\u2014particularly on this side of the Chamber\u2014that as a planning tool, reducing vehicle kilometres travelled makes absolute economic sense, because people have not chosen to have to use a car for all of their journeys. This was a result of decisions made by central government and local government that have used up enormous, valuable amounts of our urban lands in car-parking and that have unintentionally subsidised single-occupant vehicle trips and led to enormous costs on ordinary New Zealand households, who have to spend $8,000 a year, at least, owning a car\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ec5b5e577f84c5d910840a73a0be873\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Genter, could you just relate this to the appropriations, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205b2ab1ffdaa402fac5d9ef1ce2dace5\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s related to the debate, which is that I want to understand if the Minister and Waka Kotahi are undertaking actual analysis of the impact on carbon emissions and the vehicle kilometres travelled of the proposals, particularly around the preferred option for the additional Waitemat\u0101 Harbour crossing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc49a9dee5e74be09f692733d803a943\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc49a9dee5e74be09f692733d803a943\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you very much. I\u2019d love to take a call in this Estimates debate on transport. Mr Chair and the Minister in the chair, as you know, you\u2019ve travelled State Highway 35. You\u2019ve travelled State Highway 35, I know, several times. That particular road is part of the roading network, and I want to acknowledge the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, who gave the bare minimum of introduction of the Estimates, but he did mention the $1 billion around State highway improvements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI just want to focus on State Highway 35 because it\u2019s a stretch of road that is the only access way to the communities that live up the Coast. The Minister himself has been told directly, as have other Ministers in this Government, about the challenges of the people that live in that part of Aotearoa New Zealand. So the questions I have to the Minister really go to his Estimates and the flexibility of those policies to adapt to the changing environments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EMy first question is: how flexible is the New Zealand Transport Agency in being able to adapt to the changing climate, and by that I mean, on a scale, could the Minister indicate whether it\u2019s very flexible or very inflexible? That\u2019s question No. 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2: where in the Estimates does it best reflect this level of flexibility? So I am again trying to lead to the point of our having a transport policy that is fit for purpose with our changing climate, particularly for State Highway 35. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EMy third question is: in real terms, where do communities like those that live off State Highway 35 get assurances that access to their homelands is not put at risk due to this level of flexibility or inflexibility? My fourth question to the Minister is: what overall plan has his Government got on improving the livelihood of those on State Highway 35 now and for the future? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002245c9474d8b6b4d50a3ebe52dc7b708d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245c9474d8b6b4d50a3ebe52dc7b708d3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E For the benefit of listeners, we\u2019re all subject to time limits in this debate, and so I will try to briefly reply to the questions that have been put to me by various speakers. In respect of the question by Simeon Brown on Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving, both the Prime Minister and I have said that we\u2019re dissatisfied with the pace at which that is progressing, as have the mayor and the chair of the regional council. They have both written to me recently, saying that they think the Government should take more responsibility for the parts of the project, particularly, that are on State Highway 1 leading from the Arras Tunnel towards the Mt Victoria Tunnel and for the improvements needed or the additional tunnel needed through Mt Victoria, which is not to deny the importance of the other parts of Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving, particularly the rapid transit issues that are important to Julie Anne Genter and others, and to the Labour Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of Julie Anne Genter\u2019s question about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f89058d3b2f440aa9ea823b978870f2c\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: What about Auckland light rail? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223644663978394e8c886a294f10946328\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Auckland light rail. No decisions will be taken on that before the election. We are seeking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a65c7a2c2f34f77b979b9e8ed53d80c\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d3e3352ea234f1e89c4cebb842cb611\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s a lot of work being done, but no final decisions will be taken as to whether it\u2019s over ground or underground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of Julie Anne Genter\u2019s questions in respect of Waitemat\u0101 crossings, any option that proceeds will have increased public transport capability in every stage. There will be no stage that doesn\u2019t increase public transport connectivity across the Waitemat\u0101, including for public transport but also for active forms of transport\u2014cycling and pedestrian access\u2014across the bridge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of her questions about vehicle kilometres travelled, I accept the member\u2019s capability in these issues, and I would, though, observe that quite a bit of the Government expenditure on roads at the moment is necessitated by storm damage, particularly in provincial and rural areas, where people actually don\u2019t generally have public transport options and they are reliant on the roading network. But particularly in our cities\u2014yes\u2014you can\u2019t build your way out of traffic congestion through more motorways; you actually have to support rapid transit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issues that Meka Whaitiri raised in respect of State Highway 35, State Highway 35 is in a parlous position, made worse by Cyclone Gabrielle and the earlier cyclone, and storm events last year\u2014repeated storm events. A total of about $1 billion has already been allocated by the Government to the restoration of roads, and the highest spend of that per capita would be in the Tair\u0101whiti region because of their great need in that region. So Waka Kotahi are working very hard on re-establishing bridges and roads throughout those storm-affected areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022274c14246e364dfa8d50346bca41432e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022274c14246e364dfa8d50346bca41432e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I\u2019d just like to set the scene for those people watching or listening at home. There is a huge infrastructure deficit when it comes to transport infrastructure, whether it\u2019s four-laning within our regions or between regions so that people who want to do business\u2014truckies who want to get around can plan deliveries and can actually meet their customers\u2019 needs. And for cities that are growing by another half to a million people in the next 30 years like Auckland is, or only a few hundred thousand like Wellington is projected to, people who live there need to know that their Government understands what level of investment is needed in transport infrastructure\u2014whether it suits people to travel by public transport, which ACT is a supporter of if the investment case stacks up, or by private motor vehicle, or by truck no matter whether it\u2019s an electric or hydrogen truck. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I put to you that the budget proposed this year in these Estimates is completely inadequate. Only a billion dollars for CAPEX into the State highway improvements, only $497 million\u2014less than half a billion\u2014on maintenance. And that in Estimates that have been published recently, there\u2019s a billion-dollar shortfall in road maintenance that has accrued over the past decade. Minister, that\u2019s just not enough money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd then we look at investment management. Well, clearly Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency has a huge job on its hands to plan future works, to do the designation, get the consents in place, acquire the land before they start building. Minister, this doesn\u2019t appear to be enough money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWould the Minister consider tolling and actually putting a user price on roads immediately in accordance with ACT\u2019s plan to supercharge investment in the highway network, tolling for maintenance and CAPEX and allowing the private sector to compete with the Government for delivery, funding, and financing of roads? I\u2019m sure there\u2019s people at Waka Kotahi, perhaps even some of those sitting here in the House right now, who would love to offload some of those difficult projects and make them the private sector\u2019s problem. And I can guarantee you, Minister, the private sector people who build roads here and around the world, they\u2019re up for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, specific questions\u2014let\u2019s just come to Auckland. I\u2019m an Aucklander; Minister. I know you\u2019re an Aucklander, and we love our city. So has any provision been made by this Government in the Estimates for an integrated transport plan for Auckland? And if the Mayor of Auckland and Auckland Council propose a transport plan and programme that differs from the Government\u2019s in the way that it proposes to stage, time, fund, and deliver, say, an Auckland Harbour Crossing or an Auckland light rail, will the Minister accept the plan that bubbles up from the region and from the city\u2014a city deal that might be proposed by a mayor like His Worship Mayor Wayne Brown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, question one: if the Mayor of Auckland doesn\u2019t agree to the Government proposing to spend $30 or $40 billion on a harbour crossing, and the Mayor of Auckland and Auckland Council have a better proposal that\u2019s more cost effective, will the Minister accept Auckland Council\u2019s counteroffer? The same thing applies for Auckland light rail. If the Mayor of Auckland and Auckland Council have a proposal or prefer an option that\u2019s, say, above ground at much lower cost or can be delivered much more quickly as part of an integrated transport management plan, will the Minister and will this Labour Government accept a counteroffer from the city and from the region that\u2019s eventually going to have to pay for it and going to have to live with the consequences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, there doesn\u2019t appear to be enough money. Where\u2019s the money coming from? Will you take up or recommend ACT\u2019s supercharge road maintenance and investment tolling plan? And the three specific questions about Auckland, Minister\u2014Aucklanders would love the answers, so does everyone else around New Zealand, including people like farmers in Southland who do not expect to be asked to pay for a $30-billion light rail or a $40-billion harbour crossing for Auckland. Minister, there you go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00226357dbe2cc6d47fb8785aa05d5b04777\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226357dbe2cc6d47fb8785aa05d5b04777\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I was wondering if the Minister could comment on a couple of things. One, on the record, if the Minister has it available, could he let us know or confirm that, in fact, roads are not entirely paid for by road users, particularly since there\u2019s significant Crown investment in the New Zealand Upgrade Programme and other roading projects\u2014not to mention the 50 percent, at least, contribution from ratepayers to most local roads. And I also wonder if the Minister could comment on the impact on the National Land Transport Fund (NLTF) on two things: one is the public-private partnerships that were signed up by the previous National Government, P\u016Bhoi to Warkworth and Transmission Gully. What is the annual cost of that ongoing? And what impact is that having on the NLTF and the ability of future Governments to maintain and rebuild roads around the country in places like the East Coast, which has been severely affected by severe weather events, and the impact of the cut to road user charges and petrol tax that was partially in place during the previous financial year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002244a6ae6c6bdf42929aaaef2b74ea8713\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244a6ae6c6bdf42929aaaef2b74ea8713\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I want to thank the Minister for being in the House tonight to answer our questions on Vote Transport and the Estimates from the Budget that we\u2019ve just had. I must say, being the Transport Minister at the moment in the dying throes of this Labour Government must feel like a hospital pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe Minister spoke of the focus of this Budget\u2014if I understood him right\u2014around responding to flooding, resilience, and bridges. I want to get an update from the Minister for the good people of Ashburton after the devastating Ashburton floods just recently that took down that bridge that ended up cutting the South Island in half. So if there was a resilience project that was much needed in New Zealand, I\u2019d advocate for the Ashburton Bridge. So I\u2019d be very interested to ensure that that vital transport corridor remains open. What is his commitment to the Ashburton Bridge within this Budget for the good people of Ashburton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022b01ea9185a7e4d389dce1f1263f2a6c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b01ea9185a7e4d389dce1f1263f2a6c8\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would like to ask a couple of questions regarding the New Zealand Upgrade Programme, which was discussed at the committee regarding the Estimates. The New Zealand Transport Agency had previously told us that Ministers were reviewing the scope of several New Zealand Upgrade projects. The Minister had no further update regarding the projects that were being reassessed\u2014that\u2019s what the Minister stated at the time of the hearing. I\u2019d like the Minister to please outline to the House what the status of those projects are, including the South Auckland package, \u014Ctaki to north of Levin, and Whang\u0101rei to Port Marsden. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e31de8aaf009442aa09b2956f3afcd41\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s going ahead. Don\u2019t worry about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f3ccf0b6e90426b88d21d9129c11eae\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member over there says it\u2019s going ahead, but it says here in the committee report that they\u2019re being re-scoped. So it\u2019d be great to hear directly from the Minister to know what is happening with those particular projects, because I\u2019m sure there\u2019ll be significant local interest in relation to the New Zealand Upgrade Programme. Of course, this is the programme of projects which, at the beginning of 2020, the Labour Party said, \u201COh, we need to build some roads because we can\u2019t build light rail; that\u2019s taking too long, and we cancelled all those roads back in 2017. So we better find some roads.\u201D So, of course, they picked out a whole lot of roads, and one of those was Mill Road in Auckland, but they cancelled that one again after they announced it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bc22663a4e14f6ebed9c7c5bde3408c\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. One of the worst things they\u2019ve done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd5b1c4769a549cfbbd7e85b2ba2df2e\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. And then there was the Whang\u0101rei to Port Marsden run, which they\u2019re now just doing safety upgrades on. And then the Tauranga Northern Link, which they\u2019ve decided they\u2019re only doing half of it\u2014they\u2019re only doing half of it. And then they\u2019re only going to give half the lanes to general traffic anyway. So I\u2019d like an update, Minister, on the status of those projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4bf37cf97d44e50a725905594a61c6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4bf37cf97d44e50a725905594a61c6d\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just thank you to the Minister of Transport for his response around State Highway 35. I\u2019m picking up on one of the priorities in this year\u2019s Estimates, which is around reducing emissions. Again, off my earlier question, where\u2019s the Government\u2019s thinking around the blue highway strategy, Minister, particularly, again, for areas that only have one road and no airport? So, specifically, again, where\u2019s the Government\u2019s thinking around blue highways, particularly for our rural communities? And tagged onto that question is the introduction of sea gliders. I\u2019m aware that previous Ministers have received a presentation on the evolutionary use of sea gliders, from a company here in New Zealand, actually\u2014Air Napier\u2014that have put their own capital in to explore the use of sea gliders\u2014not just for the coast but actually for the whole country; fully electrical. Discussions have been had with ports. There\u2019s not a huge amount of infrastructure required to set up sea gliders. But I\u2019m interested to know, from the Minister and this Government, in the context of reducing emissions, whether blue highways are being thought about, and, in the context of blue highways, are facilities like sea gliders which are fully electric being considered in this Government\u2019s plan to reduce emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3f814d2063f4405b09f50a63db9fdee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3f814d2063f4405b09f50a63db9fdee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Responding to a number of the questions asked\u2014Simon Court referred to what he said was a $1 billion shortfall in road maintenance that had accrued over the last decade, and he\u2019s right that there was an underinvestment in road maintenance for most of the period of the ACT-National Government, when maintenance was frozen. As a consequence, the extra funding that went into the system was spent on roads, and the amount of road surfacing halved, or just about halved. Instead of 9 percent of roads been resurfaced every year, it dropped to about 5 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cebc1f5b1a14a798f3ac12e4a811aa7\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Plus heavier trucks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff83cbbf444b4264aad1f8345e71cdf3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014made worse by heavier trucks. And as a consequence, the road surface both cracked up and wasn\u2019t repaired. We\u2019ve now, in every full year\u2014in every full year\u2014that we have been in Government since, been repairing roads\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204a379c79e724e2190a4f2dc85e1b65c\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s got worse\u2014and it\u2019s got worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270d66d2b344c4799a270650f958dd8c3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and resurfacing at the rate of 9 percent. The ignorant National Party spokesperson ignores those realities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of cost overruns, Julie Anne Genter is correct that there were cost overruns on Transmission Gully and some other projects we inherited from the last Government. Sadly, we\u2019ve also had cost overruns on big public transport programmes, including the City Rail Link, where cost overruns for us and the council have totalled about a billion dollars. In respect of the question as to whether roads are not paid for by road users, that is correct that there is insufficient money in road-user charges and petrol excise duty to cover the cost of road maintenance and construction. For some time now, there have been top-ups required from general taxation in the form of both grants and loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of Simon Court\u2019s question about if there\u2019s money in this year\u2019s Budget for preparation of an integrated transport plan, yes, there is, including for Auckland, and that has been the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the question about the loss of the Ashburton Bridge, which freed the lower half of the South Island from Ashburton, those issues do need to be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7bf1ea60c554c99ad29fd946a4a5732\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7bf1ea60c554c99ad29fd946a4a5732\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister for Transport, thank you very much for addressing some of our questions, although your history of road maintenance in New Zealand might have missed a few things out, but you and I can catch up afterwards and I\u2019ll set you straight. Minister, City Rail Link\u2014thank you for raising City Rail Link\u2014a $5.5 billion dollar project. You\u2019ve acknowledged in response to a written question, actually, that it\u2019s more likely to be closer to $6 billion because there\u2019s a huge contingency or risk outstanding that the public haven\u2019t been told about till I told them just now, Minister. Then I want to get on to the unfunded contingency, Minister; that is, the road and rail separation, the grade separation in Auckland. City Rail Link\u2019s going to deliver zero benefits. It\u2019s going to be stuck on 15,000 passengers an hour unless we can separate the road crossings from the rail in Auckland. That\u2019s going to cost hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, and it needs to be done before City Rail Link opens, otherwise City Rail Link is a lemon. Minister, will the Government fund grade separation, road and rail separation, in Auckland so that we can get the most out of City Rail Link before this Government spends another dollar on Auckland light rail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022620c8595ce6f496a9d343a63be5002c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022620c8595ce6f496a9d343a63be5002c8\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I just want to follow on from my colleague Simeon Brown\u2014and, I must say, I think New Zealand is looking forward to him being the next transport Minister in two months\u2019 time. He outlined a lot of roads that have been cancelled. But wait\u2014there\u2019s one more: the Belfast to Pegasus expressway, including the Woodend Bypass, that was cancelled by this Labour Government when they came in. It would have helped unlock the potential of the Western Belfast Bypass and the northern corridor, which were built by the last National Government\u2014no Government has done more for transport and greater Christchurch than the last National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister of Transport is: when you look at AA Canterbury highlighting the Woodend area\u2014one of the most dangerous roads in Canterbury, with the fatalities and the accidents. Since they cancelled that motorway, the traffic volumes have increased by over 30 percent. What is in this Budget for the good people of greater Christchurch about ensuring that the arterial route out of Christchurch is secure with a new four-lane highway?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022dafebcac2a07439aa973b8756f4d2fbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dafebcac2a07439aa973b8756f4d2fbf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for the members, that is the time left for the debate which is on the screen now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220a2ca0567045493b9b37029c34308271\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a2ca0567045493b9b37029c34308271\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Responding to the question about grade separation in Auckland, Waka Kotahi has been doing work with Auckland Council on the cost of grade separation, and I agree that is a challenge that is yet to be overcome in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab6e9e3b289746e3bbd872e8e5f894eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab6e9e3b289746e3bbd872e8e5f894eb\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Mr Chair, I\u2019m still yet to get an answer from the Minister of Transport regarding the New Zealand Upgrade Programme and the projects that were outlined as having been re-scoped. I\u2019d like an answer around those three particular projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022df7dfd26986143eb80f92024a2f0cf89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df7dfd26986143eb80f92024a2f0cf89\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m wondering if the Minister of Transport can comment on the benefit-to-cost ratios of the projects in the New Zealand Upgrade Programme. I wonder if he has any thoughts about why there\u2019s such a double standard for investment in transport projects, where so many politicians claim that rail is low value when we\u2019ve seen many, many studies showing investments in passenger rail, like the lower North Island passenger rail business case that has a return well over the investment that\u2019s being proposed to put in. But when it comes to highways, for some reason the parties on the right, who supposedly care about fiscal discipline, do not care about fiscal discipline, because they\u2019re proposing highways that consistently have lower returns than the cost of the project\u2014not even counting the environmental externalities, the health externalities, the fact that you have to own a car and operate it to use the infrastructure that they\u2019re investing in. I mean, do you have any comment, Minister, on that? I also wonder if you could comment on the percentage of investment that has been put into new State highways relative to new public transport investments over the last years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228911c1e75743483fa65b422588ef7a4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228911c1e75743483fa65b422588ef7a4b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon David Parker\u2014four.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6d2c1a3531b4ce9b1b12b83a4882e00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6d2c1a3531b4ce9b1b12b83a4882e00\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E In the four seconds available, the good news is that we have funded new trains for Palmerston North to Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9660cf6c5b047868340a38f19808f98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9660cf6c5b047868340a38f19808f98\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time for this debate has now expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002237194bf0390d4a87992c978d35df2011\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriation for 2023/24 stand part of the Schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca113f5c89ca48669de1116dab277414\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clauses 1 to 10 and Schedules 1 to 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 10 and Schedules 1 to 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000584\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000585\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7dd9fa6cdc745ff8a48fd3b6c936513\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7dd9fa6cdc745ff8a48fd3b6c936513\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has further considered the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c128c7dd30314d999527df2aa936477e\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223401ef65c231436d9e1dbefa4bd81ef5\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00225f88c6d2abdd443cbde05321f976fc33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f88c6d2abdd443cbde05321f976fc33\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the passing through the remaining stages of the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill and the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3); the third readings of the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill; and the remaining stages of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill, the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill; and the second readings of the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill, the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill, the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill, the Water Services Legislation Bill, and the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7ca8a6ecf5542aa9027eb3f9b291912\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002266105d2dfc794caf9d3622a2e0feec0c\u0022\u003EWater Services Entities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5ce23afb230403381bb0a55dace3eb2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cdd56cb65ae941f5b44e3324122c8a7b\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Water Services Entities Act 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229fbeda1c9020411f8bb0961edfc04816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fbeda1c9020411f8bb0961edfc04816\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 27 and Schedules 1 and 2, \u201CAmendments to Water Services Entities Act 2022\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222726620cbfd040d4b2d1e9375b6b0ce9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222726620cbfd040d4b2d1e9375b6b0ce9\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019m looking forward to a good evening this evening in regards to the committee of the whole House stage on the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. For those at home getting ready to settle down for what will be two hours of some of the best political debate you have seen in a long time, get some popcorn, get some chippies and maybe a little Diet Coke, and settle in, because we\u2019ve got a little bit to talk about this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb7c8094376d4acab866b572db1ee1ff\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: We need a West Coast perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257626c53d07c41f289509ef0363034db\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s good to have you here, Todd Muller. Thank you very much for that. I\u2019m looking forward to your contribution soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s start with clause 16, eh? Let\u2019s do that. Clause 16. I\u2019ve actually got a Supplementary Order Paper on the Table here in regards to this. This is a topic of which will come as no surprise, but a topic of which has raised significant controversy across this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EDon\u2019t forget this is the \u201Cback-down bill\u201D, right? This is the bill in which the Government did their big master reset plan, remember? The policy bonfire\u2014remember the policy bonfire?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c05b6681684a1c82bc427de6959090\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Damien didn\u2019t burn anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd1428072f664d56879134dc70a6aadc\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: No, only some of them did the bonfire. Anyway, the policy bonfire resulted in this change in the water services entities, and this is the bill that\u2019s going to take it from four mega-bureaucratic co-governed entities, to 10 mega-co-governed bureaucratic entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut clause 16, of which my Supplementary Order Paper 407 is on, relates to the proposal around these proposed community priorities statements. Remember those Te Mana o te Wai statements that the Government put into the legislation, which said that, say if you\u2019ve got a stream that runs through your farm\u2014I don\u2019t know, if you\u2019ve got a farm in Canterbury, maybe, I don\u2019t know, anyway, somewhere like that, maybe the Waikato\u2014that makes sense, farmer owns the farm. In order to make some recommendations in regards to that stream that runs through the farm, well, you\u2019d sort of expect the farmer who owns the farm and owns the land would be able to input and make some comment on that. Well, originally, that wasn\u2019t the case; it was only iwi who were able to make comment on that stream, even though it was stream that ran through private land. But irrespective, the Government recognised that was a bit of a gap and they put in place these community priority statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe community priority statements\u2014the challenge with these, and the legislation as it stands, is that the governance groups that need to consider these, the wording in clause\u00A016, in the heading, under new section 145C\u2014and for those watching at home, this is going to be quite hard to follow, because this bill is amending a bill that\u2019s just got passed in only a short amount of time before this new amendment bill came in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnyway, it amends the wording to say\u2014at the moment, they say they \u201Cmay be considered\u201D. Well, there is a difference between the words \u201Cmust be considered\u201D and \u201Cmay be considered\u201D, right? Te Mana o te Wai statements must be considered, right? So that\u2019s pretty clear. But the community priority statements\u2014remember the farmer that I referred to who owns a farm and the stream runs through the farm, the statements and the contributions that that individual makes are only \u201Cmay be considered\u201D, right? So there\u2019s a hierarchy\u2014a lower hierarchy\u2014even though that person owns the land and the stream runs through the farm, and, actually, by all accounts, cares deeply about the environmental impact of that water stream that passes through, or whatever, going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut my Supplementary Order Paper says, actually, we should be replacing the word \u201Cmay\u201D with the word \u201Cmust\u201D, because we\u2019re into simplicity here, aren\u2019t we? We want to keep it simple. We\u2019re just going to change one word, right? Easy as that. Simple as.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI appreciate that we haven\u2019t got too many more days of this House sitting here, but I think maybe tonight the Minister may see the logic of this and go, \u201CYou know what? What a great idea. There is one thing that I want to do before I finish up my role as Minister, and that will be to actually say, \u2018This is a sensible Supplementary Order Paper. We\u2019re going to change the word from \u2018may\u2019 to \u2018must\u2019.\u2019 \u201D That means that places everyone on a level playing field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhy should farmers in the Wairarapa sit at a lower tier than iwi in the Wairarapa? Why is that? Is that fair to anyone? Well, currently, under the Minister\u2019s bill, there\u2019s a hierarchy, and the farmer sits below iwi. Well, we don\u2019t think that\u2019s right. That\u2019s not fair. That\u2019s not sensible. We should have all stakeholders that have an interest in regards to those water flows be having the same ability\u2014an equal ability\u2014to be able to contribute and inputting feedback in terms of that. That\u2019s not unreasonable; that\u2019s just basic fairness. So, hence, we\u2019re really encouraging the Minister to consider clause 16 and the modifications in regards to that portion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe second aspect that I\u2019m keen for the Minister to have a consideration around is in regards to clause 5, which is around the establishment dates. Don\u2019t forget that this piece of legislation originally was all going to be all on, all happening by mid-2024. Remember the good old days of those? Remember that? Well, before the policy bonfire\u2014before the petrol got thrown on the fire\u2014that was the plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230035e8be86242a9a44a510daaa9f99b\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Who was Prime Minister then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288adc4c2ee6241b890ec4bb3a925892e\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can\u2019t remember. There\u2019s so many changes, haven\u2019t there, the Hon Scott Simpson?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022178095c9bd314d2e945802e50167b221\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Who was the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba8f5a1951748eea9ed2f9252311997\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t even recall. Jeez, nearly lost count on that as well. Crikey! You\u2019re putting me under the pressure, but I\u2019m not in the seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo the point around the establishment date is that\u2014so this bill is now changing the date from mid-2024 to sort of a sequenced drop date right out to mid-2026. Well, that\u2019s kicking it for touch for another, give or take, three years from now. You can imagine the bureaucracy and the spending and the consultants, the gravy train, the conga line of consultants that are lining up behind this\u2014the \u201Cthree waters conga line\u201D, just heads in the trough. Plenty of money going to consultants and high-paid contractors, meanwhile it\u2019s all funded out of the back pocket of hard-working Kiwis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo around the establishment date in clause 5, I\u2019m keen to get a little bit of feedback from the Minister around why we are wasting so much time doing more bureaucracy. Look, if they really want to do this, and they\u2019ve got the parliamentary majority, they could do this tomorrow if they wanted to, right? But they haven\u2019t; they\u2019ve just sort of kicked it around and dragged it out. Why are we kicking it to touch to mid-2026?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut, actually, if you look at new section 6A, inserted by clause 5, on page 8\u2014I\u2019ll just give you some page numbers, Mr Chair, because it\u2019s quite hard to follow some of those\u2014the Auckland, Northland entity actually kicks in in July 2024. Well, it\u2019s interesting, right? I\u2019ll tell you what, do you think the Auckland Council are in behind these reforms? Do you think Mayor Brown thinks this is a good idea? Gee, I tell you what: the Government is spending a lot of capital up there having teas and coffees and meetings, trying to negotiate on that. But I\u2019ll cut to the chase: don\u2019t waste your time having teas and coffees; he thinks this is a dumb idea\u2014he thinks this is a really dumb idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut yet, the legislation\u2014they had the chance to make an amendment to kick this for touch but they\u2019ve actually brought this forward, and, according to new section 6A, it\u2019s 1\u00A0July 2024. Well, that\u2019s not listening to the feedback of local government, because that\u2019s what we\u2019ve heard in the narrative all through this bill, haven\u2019t we? \u201COh, we\u2019ve been listening. We\u2019ve done a lot of listening.\u201D Don\u2019t forget they read the bill on 22 June and it reported back on 27 July. That\u2019s not really a long process of feedback. But anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s comments in regards to the Auckland, Northland date. Can the Minister clarify that, actually, pretty much every mayor in Auckland and in Northland don\u2019t support these reforms, right? Well, what a great place to start\u2014what a great place to start in terms of, \u201CLet\u2019s all work together. Let\u2019s listen to local government. We all want to do this.\u201D Well, guess what! Every mayor in the entity A\u2014of which is going to be first off the rank, which is going to be the sort of poster child of these reforms\u2014is strongly opposed to the reform. This is a failure from the start. Why is the Minister not listening to the feedback from local government and going, \u201CWell, actually, everyone thinks this is a dumb idea, but, no, let\u2019s keep trucking on, head down, no listening.\u201D? The only ones that think this is a good idea are probably only the Minister, and definitely not those people and those residents within those entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo a little bit of feedback on clause 5, on the establishment date, and a little bit of feedback on new section 6A in regards to the Auckland, Northland date. We\u2019ll have a look at the actual phasing of all the other dates for all the other entities. Just in regards to the Northland and Auckland Water Services Entity\u2014actually the names of the entities are in Schedule 1 on page 48, so we\u2019ve got the Far North District Council, Kaipara, Whangarei, and Auckland Councils. Those are the ones that I\u2019m referring to when I\u2019m talking about new section 6A around the establishment date of 1 July 2024. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022092b27972085417087aefd1736fdd976\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022092b27972085417087aefd1736fdd976\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. For the sake of the people who are at home, we are in urgency. The normal procedures of the Parliament have been set to one side so the Government can push through its legislative agenda, of which this Water Services Entities Amendment Bill is just one bill in a very long list that will keep the Parliament occupied probably right through till the end of the week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, what\u2019s interesting about this bill, and particularly about Part 1, is that it represents everything that is wrong with this current Government in terms of the schmozzle and bamboozled approach to not only water services but the whole water issue. Here we are, in the dying days of this current Labour Government, amending a piece of legislation that was only passed towards the end of last year. The principal Act that we are amending is the Water Services Entity Act 2022. Here we are, in August 2023, already amending it, to make changes that will be superficial at best, and complicated, confusing, and costly at worst, but driven by ideology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I want to turn to\u2014as an example of that\u2014clause 4A in Part 1 of this bill; it\u2019s on page 6 of the bill that\u2019s sitting on the Table. At 4A(4), it says that \u201CAfter section 3(2)(d), insert: \u2026 [the words] providing a locally led process enabling them to merge if their regional representative groups decide to do so\u201D. Therein lies the rub. This is warm, fuzzy words that actually mean very little in terms of local democracy, local accountability, or electoral accountability. This is the sort of wording that lies at the very root of the criticism that has been so loudly voiced up and down the nation, across the countryside, by not only local government representatives of every colour and hue but by ratepayers all over the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe words \u201Cproviding a locally led process enabling them to merge if their regional representative groups decide to do so\u201D is the epitome of what is wrong with this legislation. The whole concept behind the current Government\u2019s three waters proposals that created the four mega-entities, soon to be replaced by this piece of legislation that turns those four mega-entities into 10 mega-entities, was little more\u2014and has been little more\u2014than State-sanctioned theft. That\u2019s been the criticism up and down the countryside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister in the chair is: why can\u2019t his Government listen more closely to ratepayers, have a better regard for their views, and a better regard for democratic processes that have underpinned local government in this country since local government was established? Why has the current Government got such disregard for the views of ratepayers and indeed those elected local government representatives? \u201CProviding a locally led process enabling them to merge if their regional representative groups decide to do so\u201D\u2014well, you couldn\u2019t get anything more waffly than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got a range of other questions that we will proceed to ask the Minister through the course of this debate on Part 1. That\u2019s my starting contribution. I know my colleagues on this side of the committee will be wanting to speak to the various Supplementary Order Papers. Simon Watts, my colleague, has just referred to his Supplementary Order Paper that amends clause 16, and that\u2019s a good piece. I know that my colleagues in the ACT Party\u2014Simon Court\u2014have a number of Supplementary Order Papers on the Table as well. Thank you, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6fd2dda4d3e4ecab19822dafe1ac9c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6fd2dda4d3e4ecab19822dafe1ac9c8\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you Mr Chair. In response to the comments and questions from Mr Watts, specifically around his proposed Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 407, the flexibility of \u201Cmay consider\u201D means that entities can determine the most appropriate response to a statement. Resource and effort can be scaled according to the nature of the statements and entities\u2019 particular circumstances. This makes absolute sense to me. This is an issue that was traversed in great detail at the select committee stage. It was deemed by members of the committee that it was important to ensure that people that did not have a close connection to the area in question could not provide a statement of their own, and the deputy chair of the committee had particular examples where that may happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regard to the difference between community statements and Te Mana o te Wai, we won\u2019t be supporting the SOP, because we as a Government wish to be consistent with the view of the previous National Government in 2014, when they established the requirement for Te Mana o te Wai. They, themselves\u2014at the time when in Government\u2014recognised that there is a role for this, and it is a requirement of this Government to be consistent with that, and that is what\u2019s being proposed in the bill. I would propose that this is pure politicking. I would also propose that it is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280d3dd1e2a154a6a837cda9cc661d485\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, hypocritical!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224940a18749c046dcbb3dc4c5efd842b8\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014quite telling that\u2014point of order. Point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e0a0d49afd6423f92babd1acf930246\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Hon Kieran McAnulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7f8e5a10e714163850c3509654fdff8\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: There are very few things that you cannot accuse members of being. I\u2019ve just been accused of that and I would ask the member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ee14513f01c45cfb4d14927ebc26dc2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t actually hear any words. If any member over there has used a word that should rightfully cause offence to the Minister, could they please stand, withdraw, and apologise. Well, in the absence of that, carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea81aabeaa6e44e2a9c61bb84d2b6e0e\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that says it all. To Mr Simpson\u2019s points, the points in the bill around potential mergers and his question around listening to the sector, all the changes that are in this bill have come about as a result of listening to the sector, and that includes the provision that allows for mergers. Councils have asked for this to be included in the bill so that in the future, if they themselves choose that it is in their community\u2019s interest to merge, they would like a mechanism to be included in the bill. We have listened to the sector. That is why these changes are being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222db0e44656749f7bb18ec3b7ca3e77f\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217b9dd1452664f589ed720cc38dacc1d\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: The members may scoff, but I can guarantee they have not visited as many councils as I have. Many months ago I challenged Mr Watts to visit councils and sit with them and listen to them. He didn\u2019t. So the point here is that what they\u2019ve asked for\u2014they\u2019ve said we can\u2019t do this by ourselves. This country has met $185\u00A0billion. When I was in Selwyn speaking to that council, they told me themselves that they can\u2019t do it by themselves. They recognised across that they collectively could do this; individually, they can\u2019t. There are many councils\u2014all 55 rural and provincial councils\u2014that I met in person. They all told me one simple thing: they need reform. They need reform and they can\u2019t do it by themselves. That is what this bill does. They had concerns about four. They are much more comfortable with 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EHere is a challenge for those members tonight: tell us what they\u2019re going to do and show us how that adds up. We\u2019ve asked them to do that for months. They haven\u2019t. They can\u2019t because their plan does not add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00224ba34103d9bb463b9a4657877e16c028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ba34103d9bb463b9a4657877e16c028\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and, Minister McAnulty, thank you for the opportunity to describe an alternative vision about how we solve the problem of funding, financing, and delivering three waters infrastructure. Now, let\u2019s just start with the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9a4ae80fa274e028adf7ff8bc25bef3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Court, that will be within the confines of Part 1 of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f4efe7d4049475da039921014592df0\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, Mr Chair. Problems with the bill: it\u2019s the latest in a series which seeks to reform three waters infrastructure, the way it\u2019s delivered and operated. Despite the limited time frame to consider this bill, which transforms the four-entity model to a much less efficient and more expensive 10-entity model, as the Minister himself was happy to confirm in the House, at select committee\u2014much more expensive, much less efficient, but, you know, that\u2019s what Labour\u2019s come to in its dying weeks of its six-year term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, why on earth did a member of the Labour Party sitting on that committee think\u2014given the limited time available\u2014it was sensible to try to introduce some kind of collective bargaining, fair pay agreement thing into a water services bill that would bind all future water services companies? Minister, I mean, the explanation\u2014I\u2019m looking heavenward, because I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anywhere else this could come from; it doesn\u2019t make any sense except for it to be maybe a bolt of lightning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, this bill proposes to amend an Act only passed eight months ago\u2014eight months ago\u2014to fanfare by a Minister, the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, who, even though that Minister had claimed co-governance, ethnic representation on boards, 50 percent of the seats allocated on the regional representative groups that will govern the three waters entities must go to iwi M\u0101ori because of an intrinsic relationship that they have with water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s be clear: the State and its agents, local government, treated iwi M\u0101ori, hap\u016B, wh\u0101nau, and marae terribly. When it comes to building infrastructure like sewage treatment plants right in front of the marae, like they did at M\u0101ngere in the 1960s, destroying their shellfishing grounds\u2014treated them terribly. Now we have the Resource Management Act\u2014whatever you think of it\u2014which weighs up the needs of people and property owners and customary rights holders against the need to build infrastructure, and that would never be allowed today. But using that type of example or reasoning about intrinsic relationships with water, to put 50 percent of the representatives on regional representative groups, that they must be iwi M\u0101ori, makes no sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EEven the former Minister, the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, said, \u201CTo my knowledge M\u0101ori have not expressed rights and interests in three waters assets over and above those [of] ratepayers within their respective communities of interest.\u201D That\u2019s it, Minister\u2014cogovernance is done. But, no, this Government\u2019s persisted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what would ACT do? ACT is a positive party. We\u2019re looking for practical solutions. You know, there\u2019s a lot of stuff in the three waters reforms that ACT would agree with. It\u2019s important that we have better funding and financing mechanisms. It would be very helpful that councils and local government entities that are failing as asset owners have more technical support. Maybe that means being part of a larger entity, but doing it by stealth, pretending it wasn\u2019t going to be compulsory then making it compulsory, pretending, \u201COh, four entities and iwi co-governance is the solution; oh no, now it\u2019s 10, but it\u2019s inefficient.\u201D\u2014I mean, Minister, come on. Whatever you go on to do in your next career, Minister, this will not be your finest moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why ACT is here to help, Minister\u2014that\u2019s why ACT is here to help. Here\u2019s an amendment to the bill: Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 400. Rather than having to face down these local councils when you go back to Wairarapa, Minister\u2014you have to face your local council saying, \u201CWhy are you taking our assets, Minister?\u201D\u2014you can adopt ACT\u2019s SOP: give each territorial authority, each council, one vote per 50,000 on the entities. Let them retain ownership and control, Minister. There you go\u2014there\u2019s SOP\u00A0400, an amendment to the bill. Instead of forcing iwi co-governance\u2014complex, unnecessary, unfounded even, according to the Hon Nanaia Mahuta\u2014well, ACT says you can give respectful representation, consultation, and input to mana whenua, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EYou can adopt the model that says in the Auckland super-city plan\u2014one which I participated in\u2014where, as a representative of Auckland Council, I had to go and represent Auckland Council talking about infrastructure plans that involved cleaning up old rubbish tips in the coastal area to the 19 mana whenua representatives. Because many of them do have genuine concerns about the way the State\u2014or its branch, local government\u2014treats them. [Bell rung] Mr Chair, just a couple more things to get through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228492e67777744a1db3d02eae461aafd3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225efdd9a0f608468098789141e8bcd1f5\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. So there are other opportunities, such as establishing a mana whenua forum or having a mana whenua representative on a governing body. That is why ACT proposes, on Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 401, to amend clause 10. \u201CEach entity\u2019s regional representative group must include territorial authority representatives.\u201D, and, \u201COne non-voting mana whenua representative must be appointed to provide advice on whether provisions of any relevant Treaty settlement Act may affect the operation of the water services entity.\u201D Because ACT is a party that respects property rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe respect customary rights, and where property rights have been infringed, then what ACT would say is that we need to recognise that, but that is not through allocating voting rights to iwi M\u0101ori based on their whakapapa and somehow claiming that that addresses some grievance that is better addressed\u2014more honestly addressed; more openly and truthfully addressed\u2014through a Treaty settlement process. Where an entity that has customary rights in water, or that has had their customary rights infringed by the State, has an opportunity to seek redress through the Waitangi Tribunal rather than having cogovernance imposed on\u2014let\u2019s be honest\u2014pipes, manholes, and sewage treatment plants, Minister. I mean, it sounds mad when you actually say it out loud, doesn\u2019t it? For the voters and for the people listening at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen I want to come to another amendment\u2014ACT has thought deeply about this, we\u2019ll get through it, Mr Chair. Amendment to clause 10, proposing to insert clause 10A: The appointment of territorial representatives. Council representatives may be revoked by a council. In other words, if they appoint someone who\u2019s not suitable, then council can pull them off. Whereas at the moment, they have to be proposed and it\u2019s actually up to the regional representative group whether they accept or reject the nominee. They might keep someone on who\u2019s really not helping their local community\u2014really not representing them\u2014because it\u2019s politically convenient to the regional representative groups that will essentially be, unfortunately, compromised on the day their established, Minister, under this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what ACT says: we should amend this bill so that the representatives on the regional representative groups for water service entities, council-controlled organisations\u2014whatever they are in the future\u2014must be democratically accountable back to their communities. Without democratic, legitimate, one-person - one-vote, or the ability of the people to recall their representatives, Minister, the water service entities will lack any political or popular legitimacy\u2014if you hadn\u2019t noticed, Minister, judging by all the \u201CStop Three Waters\u201D signs up and down the country. There you go, there\u2019s a proposed amendment to clause 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re going to get through this very quickly, Minister. Pretty much, if you accept these amendments, I can have a chat to my caucus and leader\u2014we might even support the bill passing. Very simple amendments: restore democracy; respect mana whenua, but not through co-governance; let councils own the entities; one share for 50,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we come to this one. We want to amend a further clause, Minister: clause 11A, the \u201CTerritorial authority owner may leave Water Services Entity\u201D. Who knew that a council or a shareholder or an asset owner that becomes part of a larger corporate, a council-controlled organisation, a regional water authority, a water service entity, might decide, Minister, that they\u2019re really, really unhappy with the way their assets have been managed for their small or large community as part of a larger entity. They might decide to leave and go and join another water service entity. I mean, the ACT Party believes that if you want to take your assets and your property and go and enter into contract agreements with someone else, the State shouldn\u2019t stop you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIn fact, if Auckland Council wants to get together with Wellington\u2014I mean, I don\u2019t know why they would; if anyone\u2019s seen all the water running down the streets in Wellington, you\u2019d know that their council has failed\u2014or conversely, if Waikato District Council wants together with Auckland and Northland, which they\u2019ve said they would, Minister. They\u2019re not allowed to under this bill, Minister. But with ACT\u2019s proposed amendment to clause 11A on SOP 404, councils that want to leave an entity because they\u2019re not getting good service or value for money\u2014because their communities are not getting the service they expect\u2014can leave and join another entity, or just go out on their own. Because maybe councils like Whangarei District Council, which are cash flow - positive and which are going to lose out by tens or hundreds of millions of dollars through this legislation, Minister, would prefer to go it alone; back themselves; trust their engineers and planners; trust their own ratepayers. Minister, I\u2019d love you to respond to this. This is practical stuff. ACT is here to help, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0a19836021f419bb3ef916767365c05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0a19836021f419bb3ef916767365c05\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Before I respond to Mr Court\u2019s comments, I\u2019d noted that I neglected to respond to the establishment date questions by Mr Watts, so I want to do that now. The establishment date for the northern entity of Northland and Auckland hasn\u2019t changed, because the proposed entity boundary hasn\u2019t changed. All the work that had gone into establishing that entity still remains relevant. It was the original date and so we\u2019ve stuck with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn terms of the range of dates available to the other entities, the original proposal was, obviously, for four entities and they were able to do so by a set date. With larger entities, there needs to be a longer time in which to do that. We\u2019ve gone through a process with councils to get a gauge as to when they would like to go. Some want to go early, some want to go late within the time frame, and we\u2019ve done our best to try and give them an indication as to where we think they might be able to fit through. But, of course, those dates may change depending on their circumstances. They may get through their work quicker. So we\u2019ve left that open to Orders in Council to establish the date once they\u2019re in a position to give us a firm indications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI thank Mr Court for his comments and questions. I\u2019ll go through them one by one. It is true that the Government has been very clear right throughout that the reason we landed on four is because four entities would be more efficient and would provide more savings to ratepayers. We were firm on that. When we listened to councils and heard what they had to say about wanting more local input, more local say, we landed on 10. But as a result of doing it, it did enable us to have a representative from every single council within each entity to have a seat on the regional representative group. That\u2019s the trade-off. Four would be more efficient and would save more; 10 not so much, but considerably less than the status quo\u2014and that\u2019s the point here. These reforms will prevent unaffordable and unsustainable rate rises that people will have to face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regard to\u2014I\u2019ve just realised I\u2019ve overlooked another comment that was made around the community priority statements around a stream on a farm. The committee must remember that the only areas in question here are those that are currently served by a council-run scheme. Most rural areas, be they a rural supply scheme or ones that are self-sufficient, don\u2019t come under the remit of these proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EMr Court\u2019s comments around collective bargaining: of course, this Government will look to enable collective bargaining wherever appropriate at every opportunity. We\u2019re firm in the belief that it\u2019s through collective bargaining\u2014if people choose to engage in that\u2014that people get better wages and better conditions. We\u2019ve heard from the sector and the water industry that they are concerned about retaining staff and they want to be able to attract staff, and one way to do that is to ensure good wages and good conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 400, we won\u2019t be supporting that. There\u2019s nothing stopping an entity being able to adjust the proportionality of representation through their constitutions. We also have serious concerns with these proposed changes, whether balance sheet separation would still be able to be achieved, and, of course, that\u2019s a key element to these reforms. We\u2019ve heard numerous proposals, some late in the piece, but nevertheless alternatives were put forward. None of them will be able to achieve what we need to achieve here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWith $185 billion, now deemed to be a conservative estimate of the cost that we need to find as a country, 67 councils, none of which can do it by themselves, we have to find a way forward. We could do as has been proposed and can already be done, and that\u2019s allowing councils to work in a council-controlled organisation model or shared services, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s one key element that that approach would overlook, and that\u2019s the debt that\u2019s currently associated to water services would still sit on councils\u2019 books. Right across the country, we have councils that are\u2014through no fault of their own, through the position they find themselves in\u2014having to put forward considerable proposed rate increases that, for many people, are on the verge of being affordable. That trajectory will only continue, particularly if the debt associated to water services sits on their books. These proposals remove that debt. No other proposal that\u2019s come from any other party in the House will achieve that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESOP 401 doesn\u2019t reflect the special interest in water that was established through the Supreme Court, in part by testimony from Sir Bill English. As a result of that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4313503dcb443118f6072b23ca708d9\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, water\u2019s not sewerage pipes, is it, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c922b56849e44a1cb6e90d3200a4a46f\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: This may be a debating point, but I\u2019m answering the question. This is why we\u2019re doing it and I find it. It\u2019s really interesting, though, that Mr Court was focusing on co-governance and not on an alternative funding model. A proposal that he put forward previously was to share GST with councils. Of course, that would equate to $1 billion a year. This isn\u2019t a $185 billion issue that we\u2019re dealing with here. So this is\u2014what we\u2019re proposing\u2014going to deal with the issue over 30 years\u2014[Bell rung] The ACT Party, 155 years later\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acb2db21fd5a4fdeb29f20524e2c0d71\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you seeking a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cce40faefe1e4f4db33b2df7e006dffb\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Chair. SOP 402: we won\u2019t be supporting that either, because entities\u2019 constitutions can address this through themselves already. Of course, SOP 403\u2014there\u2019s no need for this because every single ratepayer that is currently being served by a council-run scheme will benefit from these reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00223dc74a0da311410a8b7718969b9a5f35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dc74a0da311410a8b7718969b9a5f35\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, for the viewers watching Parliament TV, the people listening at home, it\u2019s clear there\u2019s not a lot of point litigating this stuff with this Minister. This Minister has offered barely a defence of the three waters reform and the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. This Minister hasn\u2019t even bothered to book in Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 staff to appear with them here tonight. He\u2019s sitting here, unsupported in the Chamber\u2014for those of you who are listening and not watching. Where are the officials that this Minister would usually have lined up behind him? Or have they given up on the reforms as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBecause I\u2019ll tell you what: those officials from the Department of Internal Affairs who have been given this task, who might have actually delivered something coherent and workable based on what they briefed David Seymour and I back in 2020 before the election, I think they\u2019ve given up too. I don\u2019t think they even care if this passes or not. Their heart\u2019s not in it. You\u2019re here all by yourself, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo here\u2019s the question for you: did they give up and throw in the towel on your reform programme, Minister, when one of your Labour Party colleagues, Rachel Boyack, proposed to put fair pay agreement collective bargaining nonsense into a water services bill? Did they say, \u201CWe don\u2019t have time for this. We\u2019ve got to get a water services piece of infrastructure through.\u201D? I think that\u2019s what they said. In fact, I might have heard them say it. Minister, you\u2019re going to pass this tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac2e5146f48249ef9b1c35c62c0bbc11\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ed9dcdd08b4301a2379b6d50bb23bb\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259087433aa824f8cbcb9ae32db450855\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe tomorrow, maybe this week. Certainly in the next three weeks. Minister, when this bill passes, instead of four chief executives required for four ginormous water service entities, there\u2019s only going to be one needed\u2014one that\u2019s going to go to the northern entity, \u201Centity A\u201D, the Auckland and Northland entity. The three chief executives the Department of Internal Affairs have hired as implementation or transition chief executives for the other three entities, well, those three entities are gone with this bill\u2014they\u2019re gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I asked you this afternoon in the House in the Estimates debate on local government, will the Department of Internal Affairs make the three chief executives whose roles are made redundant when this passes\u2014will they make those chief executives redundant? Or will they keep them warm? Will they keep them warm? Will they put them in the warming draw in case some new, juicy roles come up that they might just want to apply for? Or will they do the right thing and send them back to the job market so the private sector can determine if those three spare chief executives\u2014maybe the private sector can discover what they\u2019re worth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAre they worth between $600,000 and $800,000 a year or are they not? Because the Department of Internal Affairs won\u2019t need them, the water services entities won\u2019t need them, the taxpayers won\u2019t need them. So when this bill passes\u2014whether it\u2019s today, tonight, whenever it gets Royal assent\u2014Minister, will you tell the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) to make those people paid millions of dollars in taxpayer money, currently for sitting around doing goodness knows what\u2014will you tell the DIA to send them packing, get them back on to the job market? Maybe they can do something efficient in the private sector. Maybe they can even apply for a role with one of the 10 water service entities or the other nine, hopefully at much lower chief executive pay rates. Because it beggars belief\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d30031b385458b9e1a34c2c764c05a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Court, you\u2019re getting off the section\u2014well off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280cac6c0f1f240b9b21aa96d7796d324\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, Mr Chair, all of this came up in select committee and it was not resolved. But, I take your point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s not punish this Minister any more. He\u2019s suffered enough with this hospital pass of a Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. He\u2019s suffered enough. Soon the voters will end his suffering. He\u2019ll be a backbencher like me. I tell you what: I reckon being a backbencher is a lot more fun than being a Minister in a Labour Government. Minister, the voters are going to offer you that opportunity. But in the meantime, what ACT says is you can adopt our Supplementary Order Papers. If you do that, I\u2019ll go back to our leader David Seymour and our caucus and I\u2019ll ask, \u201CCould we therefore support the bill passing with ACT\u2019s recommended changes?\u201D It\u2019s quite likely we could. But if you won\u2019t support it, Minister, there\u2019s no point in ACT continuing to labour the point. The voters will make up their mind. Minister, the ball\u2019s now in your court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002281b2fe4cdfb34d01bc6bafafd5a5643a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281b2fe4cdfb34d01bc6bafafd5a5643a\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think it\u2019s pretty poor form for a member of this House to directly criticise officials individually. I think it\u2019s appropriate, of course, to criticise departments. But for a member to question openly the motivation and work ethic of officials, I think, is poor form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question of the CEOs, that was already\u2014at the member\u2019s own admission\u2014answered today in the appropriations, but I\u2019m happy to go through it again. As explained earlier today, the CEO of \u201Centity A\u201D will continue in that role, because there are no proposed changes for that entity. The other two that have been hired will continue in a role within the department, going through the proper change process. They have expertise that can be utilised through the transition period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s inappropriate to suggest that a Minister should direct a department to sack people; that would be beyond the realms of what is reasonable for a Minister, so I totally reject that. As I\u2019ve said earlier, in regards to member\u2019s comments around the Supplementary Order Papers 400, 401, 403, and 404, we will not be supporting those, and I\u2019ve already outlined the reasons why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022763d0107adb24463b8101cf400a5054b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022763d0107adb24463b8101cf400a5054b\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m wanting to have a discussion in regards to both clauses 10 and clauses 11: clauses that we haven\u2019t discussed so far this evening in detail. Clause 10, firstly, is in regards to the regional representative groups, and the point that I\u2019m interested to converse with the Minister about is in regards to how this will work in practice. Because the regional representative groups in this clause outline that there will be one member for every territorial authority that will sit on that committee\u2014and, of course, there is 50:50 co-governance embedded within this, which means that for every one of those roles there will be an equal and opposite position for mana whenua on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut when you look at\u2014and this is linked with clause 11\u2014the water services entities that will be established, and you have to reference Parts 1 to 10 of Schedule 2 to get the list of those entities, but one of the entities is in the Waikato. The Waikato Water Services Entity has 10 separate territorial authorities: Waitomo, Waip\u0101, Waikato, Matamata-Piako\u2014I could go on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo, in effect, 10 representatives on these regional representative groups, plus 10 mana whenua or iwi groups\u2014you\u2019re going to have 20 people on this regional representative group, and what\u2019s interesting is this isn\u2019t the biggest one that\u2019s there. I\u2019m sure we might hear a little bit more about that later on. But just for simple pragmatism, the Minister noted that one of the consequences of the Government listening to feedback is that they\u2019re going to implement that one representative group, but how in practice will a group operate with 20 different individuals? I\u2019m sort of laughing a little bit because I\u2019m just thinking of the practicality of actually\u2014with all the will and a bit of divine intervention, no doubt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI still don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to be possible to get those 10 entities plus then the 10 iwi representatives\u2014and, of course, in the North Island, particularly up in that neck of the woods you\u2019ve got a large number of iwi groupings which will be wanting and seeking representation. How is that group ever going to be able to get to a consensus\u2014make a decision on anything, let alone, you know, what time they break for morning tea? Even that conversation, I think, might be a tough one. So I don\u2019t think that\u2019s at all workable or practical or pragmatic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is quite simply: how has he sought assurance himself that actually this is going to be able to work in practice when in reality we all know that it is challenging at best even with eight or 10 around a table to get to a position where you need consensus? Of course, don\u2019t forget the legislation underpinning this, of which this is amending, requires 75 percent consensus across those stakeholders on those groups\u201475 percent consensus. Well, that is a threshold that puts us up into orbit and beyond, I think, in regards to the practicality of decisions being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the question in regards to clause 10, I then refer on, subsequently to that, surprisingly, to clause 11, which follows clause 10. This is in regards to the establishment of these entities, and don\u2019t forget, the whole purpose of this amendment bill is to, in effect, establish six additional water services entities over and above what were previously envisaged. So the list, again, in clause 11 refers to Parts 1 to 10 of Schedule 2 and it outlines all of the entities in regards to what will be established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe specific question I have, and the Minister\u2019s referred a number of times\u2014I think it was in reply to one of the supplementary order papers from the ACT member Simon Court\u2014around, \u201CWell, that\u2019s not going to allow us to meet balance sheet separation etc., etc.\u201D Well, when you look at\u2014and don\u2019t forget; remember back in the day when there were some suggestions around forming council-controlled organisations, and the pushback was when you\u2019ve only got three entities, that wouldn\u2019t necessarily meet balance sheet separation. That was the pushback that we had in the early days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut now you look at Taranaki Water Services Entity\u2014and you\u2019ve got New Plymouth and South Taranaki, and you\u2019ve got Stratford, and that\u2019s it! There\u2019s three! So that\u2019s a pretty small entity, but that seems to all of a sudden miraculously meet the criteria. Then you get down to Canterbury and West Coast, and you\u2019ve got Tasman and Marlborough, and then you\u2019ve got split entities\u2014this gets into where the Ng\u0101i Tahu boundary is, of course, which creates another degree of complexity in this whole legislation. You\u2019ve got parts of Buller District Council and parts of Grey District Council, so it\u2019s sort of like a shadow boundary line. I mean, if you want to make this more complex, you\u2019d think, \u201CCrikey, that\u2019s one way to do it\u201D, and they\u2019ve been successful, so I do acknowledge the Minister\u2019s success in that regard, of creating a governance model which is borderlining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe feedback was very clear from the councils down in that neck of the woods that \u201CPlease, please Minister, give us a break. You know, just allow us to operate within our defined boundaries; I mean that, in itself, would help us\u201D. That fell on deaf ears, because none of that feedback was taken on board. We\u2019ve kept these secret boundaries, but again in regards to clause 11, which establishes these entities, how is that going to work in practice when you\u2019re, in effect, slicing down parts of the district\u2014I mean, Buller and Grey, just driving a line between those entities, and one town, one little settlement, one house on that side of the road is in one water service entity, and the other house on the other side isn\u2019t when I go up the road. I mean, seriously? Geez. The opportunity here, for this amendment bill, was to sort of reflect back and go, \u201COh, maybe we made a couple of mistakes, that\u2019s OK\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269227fea51e440b1bf384cfe5eb72643\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: A couple!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5dacc21c460446b8cf096af2b373918\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe a couple; I\u2019m being generous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b41321bc4145df8609988c80502a93\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re being very generous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2ba38c60b840de9b176fd8e6b9adf1\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014very generous. Maybe this is an opportunity to amend it! It\u2019s all in the title, isn\u2019t it: the \u201CAmendment Bill\u201D. Well, that\u2019s another opportunity to amend it. But no, no. We left that there. So the question for the Minister, again, is: how the heck, in practice, is this really going to work? Of course, we set up originally at the start and we said, \u201CThis model will never work if we have more than four entities. Remember that conversation? Well, we listened and that\u2019s the feedback and now we\u2019ve created 10.\u201D, but again, how is this going to work in practice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy last question in regards to clause 11 is what sort of consultation was undertaken with the councils in regards to establishing these entities? Because, as we referred to before, if I look at Northland and Auckland Water Services Entity, Auckland Council are opposed to the reform\u2014well, that\u2019s quite a big issue when they\u2019re quite a big, significant player in that entity. Kaipara: well, they\u2019re definitely opposed; I\u2019m looking to the good member from up that neck of the woods in terms of Far North District Council. Then you\u2019ve got Whang\u0101rei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI mean, no one wants to do this, right? No one wants to do this. They\u2019re pretty comfortable that they can create their own structure, but they haven\u2019t been given the choice to be able to do that. They\u2019ve been mandated to do this. So what sorts of conversations were had with these entities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThen, of course, as we know, in regards to clause 11, which establishes the entities, we then go on to refer to the clause that we referred to before around clause 5, which then means that actually that Northland-Auckland entity\u2014of which no members of those entities actually want to do the reform anyway\u2014is accelerated and actually kicks off in mid-2024. I think no further questions, your honour. So I\u2019ll leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00229cd5302f2da2431db5d14e95c4857779\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cd5302f2da2431db5d14e95c4857779\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I have total faith in local councils\u2019 ability to work with mana whenua on the regional representative groups. Mr Watts made a couple of incorrect statements I\u2019m happy to correct. One is a reference to the 75 percent. That threshold is specifically relevant to proposals for a potential merger. But there are groupings of councils across the country that work together incredibly well. I happen to think that those that are involved in local government are highly competent, highly committed to their communities, and are looking forward to the opportunity to be able to deliver water services in a way the community can afford\u2014which this can do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EMr Watts\u2019 comments in regards to three councils being in entities\u2014well, he said that himself. I mean, initially, the question was prefaced with \u201Cwhen they propose council-controlled organisations (CCOs) working with three councils, and now all of a sudden there\u2019s an entity with three councils\u201D. It\u2019s not the fact that there\u2019s three councils; it\u2019s the fact that a CCO model, as proposed by the National Party and in fact can already be done, is proven not to work. It will not remove the debt associated with water services from councils\u2019 books, which many councils are absolutely screaming out for\u2014they need it. But an entity will achieve that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe had advice that\u2014of course, we wouldn\u2019t have proposed an entity boundary if the advice wasn\u2019t that we would achieve balance sheet separation. Even in the two smaller entities, the Taranaki and top of the South Island, we got advice to say that it is workable\u2014not as workable as four; we\u2019ve always conceded that. But this is, again, the trade-off from giving every council a voice on the regional representative groups, which are not governance bodies but nevertheless do ensure that every council there is represented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe comments in regard to establishment, I went into that in great detail earlier. I think that covers off all the points that were raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022326a1d10e4ed4c59bd0b14a200c31461\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022326a1d10e4ed4c59bd0b14a200c31461\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just sticking with regional representative groups. The primary legislation provides for 50,000 people and there\u2019s a share in the entity based on that. ACT\u2014Simon Court\u2014is putting up Supplementary Order Paper 400, which provides for every territorial authority (TA) owner to appoint one representative for every 50,000 people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EMinister, the select committee amended the bill to ensure\u2014I think, in clause 10\u2014that every \u201Centity\u2019s regional representative group must include at least 1 representative from each territorial authority owner in the entity\u2019s service area.\u201D, providing that flexibility to better represent the populations, particularly in the metropolitan councils, by having more than one representative on the regional representative group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI totally agree with the Minister, that members of local authorities are competent and representative of their communities, so certainly, TAs can have the discussion about how many representatives they should have. But there would be some value, I think, in making it explicit that the representation should be proportionate to the population, because that would really underline the democratic representation. So why is the Minister so opposed to having an explicit provision in the bill that relates representation back to the population of each TA area? First question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe other issue is around the establishment dates in new section 6A in clause 5, which are being done by Orders in Council. When the Governance and Administration Committee considered submissions, we had some benefit of having representatives from the transition unit provide a bit of the operational context. But I did not get a clear impression or clear information about the whole issue of stormwater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe all know that the transfer of the green spaces in cities, which provide opportunities for stormwater to seep into aquifers to slow the run-off of stormwater after rain\u2014those are managed by councils. They\u2019re a key part of place-making in our cities and towns. The transfer of those assets\u2014which have got a mixed function, for recreation, often, as well as for being part of the stormwater system\u2014will be quite complex.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ECould the Minister provide some advice, in terms of the Order in Council, in setting the start date for the entities of how this process of identifying the stormwater assets, which will be transferred and those which will stay with councils is going? Because of the complexity of legal title and the like there, is that a key factor in determining what the go-live dates will be that will be making use of those provisions in new section 6A in clause 5 of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002256de78bfb84f4afd8ca07acd49fa4ab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256de78bfb84f4afd8ca07acd49fa4ab1\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her questions. To answer the final question: yes, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s allowed for a range of dates for these entities to go live and why we haven\u2019t set a firm date in the legislation, leaving it up to Orders in Council. We have an indicative date for each entity at the moment; that\u2019s as a result of consultation with each council within the proposed entities, to get a gauge to whether they want to go early. Some councils in the entities do, for their own reasons, in part because of the debt that they\u2019ve got sitting on their books that would be removed and taken on by the entity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut, obviously, we need to be convinced and satisfied that they are in a position to be able to do that, and that includes stormwater. We\u2019ve already recognised, when we discussed this previously, around the complexity of stormwater\u2014we certainly do recognise that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to the member\u2019s comments around proportionality, the reason why I am not able to support that proposal is because we\u2019ve had advice that if it gets to the point where one single council has the majority over the other councils by itself in the regional representative group, we won\u2019t have balance sheet separation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo if we went to a true proportional model, then the Auckland-Northland entity won\u2019t be able to reach balance sheet separation and will miss those gains. But what entities are able to do, through their constitutions, is to look at the number of reps per council and decide whether some councils might warrant an additional rep. We can all think of regions where there\u2019s one dominant urban council surrounded by smaller rural councils. The flip side of that is true, too; we don\u2019t want to make sure that the opportunity for, finally, these small, rural councils\u2014large in geography, small in population\u2014facing massive liabilities, miss out on the opportunity to ensure that the rural voice is heard. Because there is a real concern, under the original proposal, that the needs of the large urban centres would always be met over those of rural areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo if an employer might be looking to employ 50 people going to a rural area, that\u2019s massive; going to a large city, it wouldn\u2019t even bat an eyelid. But if all the investment for development was only going to the cities, they would miss out on a good opportunity there. So we\u2019ve got to get that balance, and we believe we\u2019ve got it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00228dac513db8a5492d8bf9c374c8cc6501\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dac513db8a5492d8bf9c374c8cc6501\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Before I start my contribution right now, I\u2019m just slightly concerned that the Minister seems to be bereft of officials assisting him. It\u2019s usually the case in committee stage that there are officials seated at the right-hand of the Speaker\u2019s Chair to assist and advise the Minister. I am concerned that he may be relying entirely on his own memory and understanding of the legislation, or perhaps he is using some kind of electronic device to communicate with his officials; some kind of a whiz-bang technology that may be unusual in this House. Because normally, officials are present to advise and assist the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf4c1139e0a490a92b58e51e33951c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Thank you. The member has made a point, and I\u2019ll ask him now to return to Part 1 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0a347e102ca4997b62059222a463473\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So I want to refer to clause 4B of Part 1, on page 7 of the bill that is sitting on the Table. This is a section that amends the interpretation of the principal Act that was passed in 2022\u2014last year. In particular, I want to refer to the amending clause 4B, which relates to definitions that are used in the Resource Management Act 1991. It won\u2019t escape the attention of members in this Chamber that that is a piece of legislation that is currently under review itself. In fact, as part of the urgency motion that was passed earlier tonight, the replacement legislation to the Resource Management Act 1991 is actually going to be considered by this House towards the end of the week\u2014that\u2019s the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister in the chair relates to the use of terminology and definitions that are currently contained in a piece of legislation that is about to become null and void in its own right. Now, having said that and asked the question, I want to make it very clear to members across the Chamber in this committee stage\u2014and also to people who may be listening on their wirelesses or watching on television\u2014that, in fact, the National Party will, given the opportunity after the general election in October, be repealing not only this Water Services Entities Amendment Bill in its entirety but it\u2019s also our intention to repeal completely, before Christmas, the natural built and environment legislation and the spatial planning legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c36e158e8e6e457ba283c13f0d19033d\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll be a real bonfire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022525a04d874db428facb8661266b3ebd4\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CThat\u2019ll be a real bonfire\u201D, my colleague Nicola Grigg says. So here we have the kind of nonsense that is going on in terms of the dying stages of a Government amending legislation that was passed using their absolute majority just six or seven months ago, replacing definitions in a piece of legislation that they are indeed themselves replacing, but will also be repealed if a new Government is elected in October. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister relates to the use of the definitions in the existing Resource Management Act 1991, in clause 4B of this amending legislation, and it includes definitions relating to water, amongst which it says \u201Cwater in any form while in any pipe, tank, or cistern\u201D, \u201Cwater \u2026 in any part of a river, lake, stream, pond, wetland, or aquifer;\u201D. That\u2019s a very wide definition of water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere are some critics of this legislation who say that part of the problem is that by owning the infrastructure, you, effectively, own the water. Of course, that has always been a principle from this side of the House, that nobody owns water\u2014that nobody owns water. But if you own the water in any form\u2014while in \u201Cpipe, tank, or cistern\u201D, \u201Cin any part of a river, lake, stream, pond, wetland, or aquifer\u201D\u2014then, actually, effectively, you own that water simply because you own the infrastructure and the network that goes with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister\u2014what, effectively, this piece of legislation does is, by abrogating the ownership to these 10 entities, remove the democratic responsibility and accountability that goes with it. Then, defining water as widely as it does\u2014interestingly enough, it doesn\u2019t include, apparently, steam or ice, and, I guess, maybe that could be considered water in any form. But what, effectively, this means is that the control and ownership of what flows through the pipes, tanks, cisterns, rivers, lakes, streams, ponds, wetlands, or aquifers then becomes, effectively\u2014even if not written into the black letter law of the legislation\u2014the ownership of what flows through, namely the water, is designated and deemed to be in the ownership of these unelected, undemocratic, and unaccountable organisations. So, if the Minister could cast some light on those matters, I would appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022cab14a8c96734be5ae0eefa45668f927\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cab14a8c96734be5ae0eefa45668f927\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much. I thank Mr Simpson for his questions. So the definition of water aligns with that proposed in the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill. Any outstanding references have been dealt with through the legislation bill. All three of those are included in the urgency motion which we find ourselves in now. What is proposed in this bill is about the management of water, not ownership. There\u2019s nothing in the bill that could reasonably lead to what the member has suggested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002258dad50031f04cb0b835da9540e3a01b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258dad50031f04cb0b835da9540e3a01b\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220966b1f7509147e189bae06b36465398\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d940721c897d445197adbe5cf178b48d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d940721c897d445197adbe5cf178b48d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 405 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226cbca6f2cd804c45b930536602a243b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022924dd08ae0da4f22b654f630cd9f51a2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 404 is ruled out of order as being against the principles and objectives of the bill. The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 401 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d01fda164293426b8d33f3c630830d01\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250fd2e20c8dd4f41969680d2b23b38a2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 400 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226333c3d9b3ed41d6bee617cafbadab08\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e2f59deb5243eca3b8d160f8c7f456\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Court\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 403 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225c78608e13474701a3399965f3c43dc3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d30e52df9a04bea8013c2ab2875e989\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Simon Watts\u2019 amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 407 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220c69555f7a5344ae9371613579db830f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022399adaec0e394f38bd4aeaa92bde3009\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7a2acb82ef546b9a2a18fbfe692ee84\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002218f156f7895747a0be7971ead0483fe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218f156f7895747a0be7971ead0483fe3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 28 to 44\u2014amendments to other legislation. The question is that Part 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022df7e6c4ffef347dfa9937413e532e3d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df7e6c4ffef347dfa9937413e532e3d1\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I\u2019m just seeking clarification. My understanding is we only were referring to Part 1 up to clause 15, or new Subpart 1A, in the last portion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff507d0c9c5a41cd9eafd907a0e198bf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could\u2014I\u2019m not following the member. We\u2019ve just voted on Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222661d63c0a1d412697b2ab27ddc81067\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: In its entirety? OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef5bfa0858244032b06530e13dac9d80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef5bfa0858244032b06530e13dac9d80\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll put the question again, otherwise\u2014Simon Watts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022a72309499c9b4d718e57d8e8b2feafab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a72309499c9b4d718e57d8e8b2feafab\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to take a call on Part 2 of the legislation. My question in regards to this portion of the legislation\u2014in particular I want to go to clause 40, which actually refers to the aspect in regards to the arrangements for the Chatham Islands, actually. Because it\u2019s interesting that while right from the start of this reform programme, the option of being able to opt out was never afforded to any councils\u2014any councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de1a2c903bde4eff851cb3a96f117fb6\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Say that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022539d8e26a50e46c0b668be57dd2f2812\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: The opportunity to opt out. Remember the option to opt out if you wanted to opt out of this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022208f9ef2afed4997a46370336a413159\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: That was a phantom, wasn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c24cd4d3e8e492bb1e2886ce49057cf\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, interestingly enough it might have been. But, what seems to have snuck its way into the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill in clause 40 is a clause in regards to the fact that the Chatham Islands Council is not subject to the specific clauses in this bill. So the Chatham Islands are now, literally, an island by themselves. And that\u2019s no disrespect to the Chatham Islands, because it is a wonderful part of our jurisdiction. But interestingly enough, none of the clauses in the legislation now apply to the Chatham Islands. It doesn\u2019t appear in Schedule 2 in regards to the 10 entities\u2014it\u2019s not part of that. They are excluded. They have their own model in regards to the provision of water services. They have been given and afforded the rights to be able to choose their destiny in regards to this aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef2e2c68184459cbcf23c82e63b145d\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Eight hundred people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bd8cef9c94a4a77b25fab17d03ff80b\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Eight hundred people, is that right? Well, there you go, Joseph Mooney. There\u2019s a little bit of contribution. So how could it be that what\u2019s good for the goose is not good for the gander? As the saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255fd5b9abfe74e2294308c92d75eb281\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Ask the people of Waiheke. What about the people of Waiheke?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d8c18f04c8d46769a4df563a0ee03f9\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, what about the people of Waiheke? What about the people of Great Barrier? What about that? What about the people of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5e20d3cd9e34f98a934a05c54145387\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Stewart Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224defcacc574649818981b0827418847b\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Stewart Island\u2014the good people of Stewart Island. I\u2019m going to do a little call out to a good couple of friends down there. One\u2019s running the pub and one\u2019s running the school on Stewart Island. Why are they cut? Why can\u2019t they choose their own destiny in regards to how they manage their water services, and yet the Chatham Islands can?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo that is interesting. So I\u2019m really interested and intrigued on what occurred and what has occurred through the deliberations and the engagement by this Minister that has led to the insertion of this clause and the fact that that jurisdiction, that territorial authority, is not part of the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. It won\u2019t be subject to any of the obligations in regards to these entities. I guess that\u2019s one saving in terms of not having an 11th water services entity with a new CEO and a new number of bureaucracy and all of that. But how could it be, after all the significant submissions from councils across this country saying, \u201CActually, you know what? We can manage our water infrastructure just fine. It\u2019s not broken. We\u2019re quite capable of doing that. Can you just let us get on and do our job.\u201D? But for some reason, the Chatham Islands have been given special treatment by this Minister, and they are excluded in regards to this piece of legislation. That\u2019s a little detail that I don\u2019t think too many people would have picked up on\u2014the fact that there was one council or one territorial authority that has been given the choice to opt out of the three waters reform programme. What is going on\u2014what is going on? I wonder why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c80815652e94da495e1864548275cc8\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a choice for them, they are statutorily excluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219f51bdca62e49c0955677a1fc20db19\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: They are excluded. And have the people of the Chatham Islands been asked\u2014do they want to be part of this? There must be one person\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c0dd641867493e92c62955995a85d5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Look, I\u2019m just going to bring the member back. I\u2019ve just lost my Standing Orders but I just want to direct the member to cast his eye over Standing Order 108: \u201CMember to address Speaker. A member on being called to speak addresses the Speaker and, through the Speaker, the House.\u201D There\u2019s a couple of good reasons for that. One is obvious: what would I be doing otherwise? And the second reason is that if the member wishes his dulcet tones to go out through the airwaves, he would be wise to speak into the speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17b3407b2d942c28a4534557e9bef2f\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EFor those residents in the Chatham Islands that are listening this evening to this, I\u2019ll just go back and repeat what I was just saying. [Interruption] No, there are calls for me not to do that. OK, well, I won\u2019t repeat everything that we\u2019ve said. But that\u2019s simple. Let\u2019s just have an explanation around what is so special\u2014why have the good people of the Chatham Islands been excluded and what is the rationale for that? And just intrigue us with a little bit of rationale in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002266fbf1dff8c840bfb440ed81c1ee84f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266fbf1dff8c840bfb440ed81c1ee84f6\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E It would be incorrect to compare the situation of the Chatham Islands with Stewart Island, because, of course, Stewart Island aren\u2019t their own council. I\u2019m surprised the member, as local government spokesperson, didn\u2019t know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe Chatham Islands are their own council. There are 660 people on the island. The council has a longstanding unique relationship with central government, where they are directly funded. They are directly funded because rates alone can\u2019t cover the basics. So there is a record amount of investment from this Government around the wharf, but they also need funding for roading, for simple, basic provisions that other councils can do, but with a small isolated population of 660, the Chatham Islands can\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe reason why they haven\u2019t been included in the entities is because, after seeking advice on whether it would actually just be simpler to continue and extend the existing direct funding relationship that the Chatham Islands councils have with central government, I deemed that it was actually better for them to just continue that. I put it to them and they agreed. They didn\u2019t ask to be excluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00221e6630fd61ff4f1a92b59702071f21f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e6630fd61ff4f1a92b59702071f21f6\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister McAnulty, I wasn\u2019t entirely sure whether it was worth continuing to labour the point with you, but you seem to have an enormous appetite for responding to challenges to this legislation, so I\u2019m going to offer you a couple more. I\u2019ll offer you a couple more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I understand that the Hon Kieran McAnulty has been known to offer odds, and I\u2019d be interested in hearing what the Minister\u2019s odds are that this legislation will survive past Christmas. But before we get to the wagering part of the night, Minister: clause 35, inserting clause 31 into Schedule 1AA, \u201CLong-term plan to take effect for all or any of 2024/2034, and related documents\u201D. So, for context, local government\u2014councils\u2014are required to develop a long-term plan, a 10-year plan, of which ACT would say it\u2019s probably not long enough. In fact, what ACT would say is, actually, future Government needs to adopt ACT\u2019s proposal for 30-year infrastructure plans. But at the moment it\u2019s a 10-year long-term plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EOne of the problems that councils identified, Minister, was that when trying to make provision for 2024-25, 2025-26, and so on\u2014because this bill provides for an uncertain transition time frame to one of the nine water service entities, there are councils up and down New Zealand who won\u2019t know how long they\u2019re going to have to provide maintenance contracts, or whether capital works are required to upgrade plant and equipment, replace pipes and manholes, maybe re-sleeve sewer networks so that rather than digging them up and replacing the pipes they repair them from the inside. All of this work needs to be budgeted and planned, but they don\u2019t know on the day that a water service entity will be created by the Department of Internal Affairs. They\u2019re told to jump in now, no matter what their long-term plan, no matter what their budgets, no matter what their procurement arrangements are with their contractors and with their professional service providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI mean, it really goes to show the complete lack of understanding of this Labour Government, its Cabinet Ministers, even its myriad backbenchers, some of whom have even worked for local government. They have failed to understand how to operationally implement infrastructure reform. But, Minister, don\u2019t worry. All of the effort, all of the submissions that we\u2019ve heard at select committees over the past few years of three waters reform won\u2019t be wasted. That is because the ACT Party has listened, and we\u2019ll be prepared to deliver ACT\u2019s infrastructure plan\u201430-year infrastructure agreements, set out in this document, ACT\u2019s solutions for building New Zealand and conserving nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, question: what on earth are councils supposed to do with the lack of certainty and timing, which inserted clause 31 alludes to? They\u2019re going to have to make plans, long-term plans, but they won\u2019t actually know on which date their assets go into a three waters entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen, Minister, I want to come to \u201CInfrastructure strategy\u201D, clause 37, inserted into Schedule 1AA by clause 35. It says a local authority is no longer required to include water services in the infrastructure strategy. Can you imagine any other developed country in the world where a local authority, responsible for planning; responsible for land-use planning and consenting; responsible for the interface between landowners, people seeking to develop land and wanting to know what is it that council and asset-owners are doing, \u201CWhere do I go to find the information?\u201D\u2014the local authority infrastructure strategy won\u2019t include water services? What kind of infrastructure strategy is that? How on earth, during a water infrastructure reform process, did the policy intent result in water being separated from local governments\u2019 infrastructure strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI mean, what would be helpful, what we\u2019ve heard from councils, what we\u2019ve heard from the Infrastructure Commission, Infrastructure New Zealand, operators, professionals, Taituar\u0101 association of local government, Local Government New Zealand\u2014honestly, all the submissions, Minister; you should read them, you really should. What they said was that a coherent infrastructure strategy that combines land-use planning with an infrastructure pipeline\u2014that actually goes some way towards giving certainty, not just to landowners and property owners but also to the industry that is supposed to deliver all of this infrastructure, that is supposed to fund and finance all of this infrastructure. Yet here we have an infrastructure strategy, Minister, that\u2019s supposed to be broken out\u2014water is not to be included in local government infrastructure strategies. Please explain, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002279fbf42bf37b4a5bb6fdf097c1f35aab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279fbf42bf37b4a5bb6fdf097c1f35aab\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In response to Mr Court, I did read the submissions, and that\u2019s why I can say with absolute confidence that the provisions that he referred to in the first part of his contribution have the backing of the majority of the local government sector. They are happy with this, so I don\u2019t see what the problem is. The member has expressed a concern on behalf of the sector, but the sector\u2019s happy, so I consider that all good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to his second point, that\u2019s dealt with by the inclusion of the requirement in the first two years of the long-term plan moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u002233be703f8f284e90a13aba29ea0fc365\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233be703f8f284e90a13aba29ea0fc365\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to pick up, actually, on a little bit of what Simon Court over in the ACT Party was talking about with regard to subpart 4, amendments to the Local Government Act. I\u2019m fascinated by the wording of new clause 31 in Schedule 1AA, inserted by clause 35(8), where we\u2019re talking about the long-term plan \u201Cto take effect for all or any of the 2024/2034\u201D\u2014and related documents. Particularly in new clause 31(1): \u201C(a) water services are to be transferred from the local authority to a water services entity during [that period] \u2026 2024/25 and 2025/26 financial years; (b) the implications of, and any significant risks associated with, the transfer\u201D and also the council must report \u201C(c) how the council is planning to deal with the implications of, and any significant risks associated with, the transfer\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think anyone\u2019s talked much this evening about \u201Centity I\u201D, and that is my part of the world. It takes in Canterbury and the West Coast in it. It is approximately at this point in time and it may well change about 14 councils in the regional representative group. As we know, there\u2019ll be 14 representatives on that regional representative group and, of course, 14-ish mana whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s talked a lot this evening about balance sheet separation. I just want to submit to the Minister that there are vast differences in this entity. In particular, if you look at the wide deep rate base that is enjoyed by Christchurch City Council, and indeed by the Selwyn District Council, collectively I think we\u2019d be close to 700,000 residents across both those and I\u2019m not even including Waimakariri, Ashburton, and further south.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut, to the Minister, when we\u2019re talking about how councils are now going to be mandated to outline to their communities matters like the financial implications and risks of this merger, this mega merger, what does the Minister say to the likes of the Selwyn District Council or the Christchurch City Council\u2014how are they supposed to be able to communicate to their residents, to their ratepayers about the risk when they are quite clearly going to be subsidising councils on the other side of the main divide in Buller and West Coast - Tasman, in that lovely part of the world that Maureen Pugh does such an excellent job in? These are light and day, literally, on two sides of the South Island. These councils have light and day between their balance sheets, so how can the councils on the eastern side of the divide communicate to their residents in good faith about the risks and financial implications that they will be having to deal with because of being forced into this merger?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca840fdc9e504e57a0f0ed26dbd24f66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca840fdc9e504e57a0f0ed26dbd24f66\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The boundaries of course were debated in Part 1, but in terms specifically around communication and risk, there is significantly more risk to these individual councils if reform does not occur. There are savings for each ratepayer in each of the councils in every entity that is proposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f474ad2ceb8a4092876aef2e638012df\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s simply not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff38e69194d4c7d822c7843377dbeb9\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: It is true. We can back it up. We\u2019ve provided numbers. We\u2019ve asked the National Party to provide numbers on numerous occasions over many months and they haven\u2019t done it. They\u2019re not doing it because their numbers don\u2019t stack up. Our numbers have been peer reviewed on two occasions. They\u2019ve been reviewed again by rating agencies. Yet again, we can prove that these reforms will save ratepayers money. That\u2019s the end of the story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002220e8a4a3c89d491ea65490e5093c1702\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220e8a4a3c89d491ea65490e5093c1702\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Part\u00A02 of the bill deals mostly with amendments to other legislation, and I want to refer to clause 36, which is an amendment to the Local Government (Rating) Act 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EClause 37 provides an amendment to Schedule 1AA of that principal Act. So there\u2019s quite a long and detailed inclusion there that is headed up on page 43 of the bill that\u2019s on the table. It\u2019s headed up \u201CProvisions relating to Water Services Entities Amendment Act 2023\u201D and it applies to a rating mechanism for water services. It says that at subclause\u00A04(1), \u201CThis clause applies if\u2014(a) a territorial authority\u2019s district is wholly or partly in the service area of a water services entity with [the] establishment date (under section 6A(3A) or (4)\u201D. Without wanting to go through and just read out the whole page\u2014because it\u2019s quite detailed\u2014I want to just ask the Minister some questions around his interpretation of the words in that amended part. I\u2019m not an accountant, but looking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3c6092bfab540eaa7b213ec793bde38\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re way too fun.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d426c929c54f8fa0600ef4c8780331\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Nicola Grigg says \u201Cway too fun\u201D to be an accountant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885e0b76666c4efdaef1dd1fbd8c06f4\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Watts is an accountant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202239604605241d3a1aefefa40f90540\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Simon Watts is an accountant? There you go. There you go. But look, just coming back to the amended Part. As I say, it\u2019s quite long. It creates a formula for rate collection and calculation and there is an example that is prepared on page 44 of the bill on the table. Frankly, I\u2019m at a loss\u2014as I say, as a layperson, not as an accountant\u2014to understand the example that is put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI\u2019m wondering whether the Minister can advise me and maybe other members of the committee, what\u2019s his interpretation of the example that\u2019s given there? It looks to me to be an example that\u2019s probably been prepared by officials, and it\u2019s quite involved. At one point, in subclause (5)(b), it says \u201C(A \u002B B) / E \u0026lt;= 30%\u201D. Now, I only did school certificate mathematics, so I find that a little bit daunting. But I\u2019m sure the Minister will be able to\u2014given his background with numbers and odds, and sums of money\u2014provide some insight into a layperson\u2019s understanding of what the example provides in that piece.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00228cf9f0a9e91c451680cb5919ec8d8c47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cf9f0a9e91c451680cb5919ec8d8c47\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. It\u2019s not my job to provide interpretations of the bill. As Ministers, we introduce bills; we provide legislative statements to outline the intent. I understand it. If the Minister doesn\u2019t, perhaps he wants to ask an accountant in his caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220e34d6a8e15044ee9222a87de7c3ced5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e34d6a8e15044ee9222a87de7c3ced5\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E What a delightful response in regard to what I think was a reasonably genuine question! But I think that personifies the mannerism in which this Government listens so attentively to feedback and the way in which it responds so eloquently to such feedback. But I\u2019m not going to labour the point\u2014well, maybe we could, actually, because it\u2019s such a lovely formula, isn\u2019t it\u2014looking there, on page 44, at the example. Let\u2019s go through it, eh? Let\u2019s play along and let\u2019s go through the detail, because I\u2019m quite interested in the numbers as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ll go through\u2014no. Actually, no, I\u2019m not. I\u2019m going to go to clause 38. In the interests of sanity, we\u2019ll just stay on a few other clauses before we get into that detail. Let\u2019s take a look at clause 38(8), which inserts new clause 38, \u201CBudget, and unapplied rates revenue, for water services\u201D, into Schedule 1AA of the Local Government Act 2002\u2014the clause that we\u2019ve all been waiting for this evening because it\u2019s a very important clause. The subpart around this in regards to new clause 38(3) is \u201CAs soon as is reasonably practicable after the establishment date\u201D\u2014so this is a clause that allows the territorial authorities the mechanism to be able to transfer to these newly created water services entities the unapplied rates revenue that has been collected in that financial year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI guess the point of the question here is: what is the fiscal quantum that the Minister foresees that this new clause 38(3) will actually be dealing with, and, in particular, whether there are any territorial authorities that, through the process, have been identified that potentially may have a significant amount of unapplied rates revenue? I guess, in layman\u2019s terms, what is the problem that the Minister is trying to achieve or fix as a result of this ability to, in effect, apportion that rates revenue? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ERates are collected, obviously, by territorial authorities to service costs that are very wide ranging, not just in regards to water pipes or stormwater or waste-water pipes but, actually, a wide-ranging aspect of local government services. So one would consider, probably rightly, that any unapplied rates revenue would need to be apportioned for the elements that relate to the elements of water services, and the other aspects that aren\u2019t related to water services would, therefore, not be applied and would not transfer. So I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister in regards to how that process will work in terms of, first, the quantification of what is that value; secondly, what, if any, apportionment is going to be undertaken in regards to splitting up the rates revenue that\u2019s relevant to the three-waters infrastructure and the elements that are not; and, thirdly, what is the overwhelming driver in regards to having this here, other than potentially the complexity that I\u2019ve summarised in my contribution? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI think I do feel like I might go and have a look at that other clause in regards to the calculation that the Hon Scott Simpson was referring to, because I think his questions were quite reasonable in regards to what that element refers to. We find ourselves on the example that is on page 44, in new clause 5, which is to be inserted in Schedule 1AA by clause 37, just above the clause relating to our good colleagues in the Chatham Islands, at new clause 6\u2014which was covered at length. But I want to go to that example that\u2019s under subclause (5) there. It talks about \u201CA\u201D, \u201CB\u201D, \u201CC\u201D, \u201CD\u201D, and \u201CE\u201D, and it\u2019s got a lovely formula there, which is \u201C(A \u002B B) / E \u02C2= 30%\u201D. So it is quite straightforward, isn\u2019t it, I say to the Hon Scott Simpson, when you look at that formula. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022728c1a4833da4f13aac3779a53834e2b\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Nicola Grigg knows the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256caf35f67f04439ba2051b0ac1697f9\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it gives you a rate of \u201C29.6%\u201D. So I\u2019m interested in terms of what that is representing in regards to those different subclauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad4395b7df8149edbb807e302c7fe9ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad4395b7df8149edbb807e302c7fe9ae\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dabfae16dc8f437e9e20aff9c769fd4f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the suspense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b49020f4b06450d854950fcc108dcfa\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the suspense. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to raise a matter that relates to the schedules\u2014is that part of Part 2, am I permitted to speak to the schedules or not? Not at this stage. Oh, well, in that case, I\u2019ll speak to another clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f09902b0438f4d279259931036251fb7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Those matters were dealt with in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff35091cbc244b3bd40ea3d6b450afd\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c87be931583490a98c8340677b5b038\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: In Part 1\u2014those schedules were dealt with as part of Part\u00A01.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022956589792317450e90a1e482c0676aa0\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: In Part 1. OK. Well, that\u2019s OK. So I do want to come back to this question relating to the Chatham Islands, because that seems to be something that is quite separate and new, that wasn\u2019t a part of the original, principle legislation, Water Services Entities Act 2022, that was passed\u2014what, is it only seven months ago? Something like that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f348f04aabaa40178dfbacf5b98b231f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Eight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228544f9afe95247d3be516345484deb47\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014seven or eight months ago. And so this question relating to the carve-out for the Chatham Islands\u2014now, just this evening, we had the valedictory speech of the member of Parliament who has responsibility for the Chatham Islands, Paul Eagle, and, notwithstanding his very staunch advocacy for the Chatham Islands, this does seem strange. Now, the Minister for Local Government mentioned earlier on that the reason that the Chatham Islands had been carved out is simply because they have their own council. Well, there are many other parts of the country that have their own council. I would argue that there are some parts of the country that could equally be separated out because of geographical reasons or distance or matters of simple democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to point to an area in my own electorate of the very beautiful Coromandel. So the Thames-Coromandel District Council, for instance, has been lumped in with the Waikato Water Services Entity, and yet that is part of the Hamilton City Council, the Matamata-Piako District, \u014Ctorohanga, South Waikato District, and Taup\u014D District. And I\u2019d argue that, notwithstanding those very good councils, they have almost nothing in common with the issues and the concerns and the matters that are foremost of the thinking at the Thames-Coromandel District Council. The peninsula is largely covered by the Thames-Coromandel District Council. In many respects, it is\u2014although not separated by water like the Chatham Islands\u2014literally a different geography, a different set of communities, and a different set of issues, needs, and demands, not the least of which is the cyclical nature of peak water demand over the normally good summer periods that we have in the Coromandel. Not that we\u2019ve had that for the last summer. We\u2019ve got some severe issues that the Minister, wearing another hat, is, of course, very aware of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut, notwithstanding that, I\u2019d argue that there is a good argument for actually excluding an area like the Thames-Coromandel District Council in the same kind of principled way that the Minister has taken in terms of the Chatham Islands. As I say, not separated by water, but geographically separate, having very little in common with \u014Ctorohanga or the Taup\u014D District Council or, indeed, Hamilton City. And there are many people\u2014there are many people\u2014in the Thames-Coromandel District area that think already the regional council, for instance, that operates in the area, the Waikato Regional Council, is far too Hamilton-centric.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested to know, if the Minister can make one carve-out for a geographic area that, just in this particular case, happens to be separated by water rather than solid geography but is still a separate community of interest, different needs, demands, desires and peaks in terms of tourism and water demand, why can\u2019t that necessarily happen in an area, for instance, such as the very beautiful and desirable part of my electorate in the Thames-Coromandel District Council. I\u2019d be happy if the Minister could give us some insight, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00224565386bbaa946d3b561847b2c41ca97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224565386bbaa946d3b561847b2c41ca97\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr Simpson\u2019s contribution in reference to boundaries\u2014as I said earlier boundaries were dealt with in Part 1. I answered Mr Watts\u2019 question around the Chatham Islands as a courtesy to him, but actually the bit that deals with the Chatham Islands\u2019 bespoke arrangement is also in Part 1. So the entirety of that contribution isn\u2019t actually relevant to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to Mr Watts\u2019 question around the wording, that\u2019s worded appropriately because it adds adequate flexibility to reflect the fact that there are different ways in which rates are collected across the country. So if you were too prescribed in the way in which that was dealt with, then you would come a cropper with some councils. It is up to the councils and the relevant water services entity to determine what is reasonably practical and how the transfer will be made depending on their individual circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022674c7e64c0354576b837fed557081b21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022674c7e64c0354576b837fed557081b21\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c7a9dd0518a4e6782a389434f595ca9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002285233a1e088f45dd84de536fb0d2f77c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000801\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000802\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000803\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc5362f49db843eaa20f6a9c77d35fef\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc2c8f0c02a446cab56fe24269d0dd8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc2c8f0c02a446cab56fe24269d0dd8f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2\u2014title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227fd00814012346eb9d93c542a2e25a78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fd00814012346eb9d93c542a2e25a78\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair. We\u2019re coming to the end of what has been an interesting debate this evening in regards to the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill, in this aspect referring to the title of the bill in regards to clause 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere are a number of suggestions that I want to make to the Minister in regards to what we could call this bill, but I want to provide a number of pragmatic suggestions, because the reality is that this Water Services Entities Amendment Bill, as it is titled, is actually\u2014and should be referred to as\u2014Labour\u2019s \u201CBack-down Bill\u201D. Because, in effect, what this bill is actually doing is making a number of amendments and back-downs in regards to legislation that was put in place by this Government, and amending elements of legislation put in place by this Government, only a number of months before a subsequent change of those at the helm of the Government and, subsequently, that policy bonfire process that went on and the subsequent release of a National Party policy document in regards to an alternative, Local water done well. Following that release, the Government decided to listen and reset their position and came up with the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut I think this bill should be referred to as the \u201CBack-down Bill\u201D, because that\u2019s what it is and that is what it should be called, because it is not reasonable to not refer to it as something that it is not. But the fact that, subsequently, the bill was only out just over a month or so for consultation also shows that it isn\u2019t really, obviously, a full process of consultation. That feedback is in the report, which was the feedback from the select committee. I mean, it says, \u201CMany submitters commented on the limited time provided for consultation with affected groups during the process of legislating for [the] water services reform.\u201D Well, you pretty much couldn\u2019t sum that up better, but that\u2019s the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo we recommend that we call this bill not the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill but instead the \u201CBack-down Bill\u201D, and we\u2019ll be interested to hear contribution from those other members. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002263d4c5744862468b8cfdaf6d22926ef4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263d4c5744862468b8cfdaf6d22926ef4\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E On the name of the bill, \u201CWater Services Entities Amendment Bill\u201D, you could call it the \u201CBack-down Bill\u201D, Minister. It started off with four entities; now it\u2019s 10. You could call it \u201CMuch More Expensive and Less Efficient Water Services Entities Amendment Bill\u201D, Minister, because that\u2019s what you said when you came to select committee. You could call it \u201Cgiving up\u201D, Minister\u2014the \u201CGiving Up the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill\u201D, the \u201CLet Me Out of Here (It\u2019s Nearly 10\u00A0o\u2019clock) Water Services Entities Amendment Bill\u201D, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut when it comes to the time for implementation, that\u2019s the problem with this bill. If there was one date that local government, professional services, engineers, maintenance contractors, communities could plan for\u2014as there was in the original bill. I mean, that provides this thing called \u201Ccertainty\u201D; allows organisations to develop a pipeline of work; allows funders and financers, even, to say, \u201CHey, on a certain date, we\u2019ll be there with some private, institutional capital\u201D, as ACT proposes in our solution here, Minister\u2014ACT\u2019s solutions for building New Zealand and conserving nature 30-year infrastructure plans. Private institutional capital to finance, to build out of the three waters infrastructure needed for growth and remediating the pipe networks in our major cities. But, Minister, even the time for implementation has blown out to the nether-nether. There was 1 July 2024; now it\u2019s \u201CHmm, sometime between then and 2026\u201D. Yeah, that\u2019s assuming a whole bunch of other stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, this has been a very, very disappointing end to the water services reform programme, which I was informed about by Department of Internal Affairs officials in September 2020. There was no mention of co-governance then. It sounded like an eminently worthy concept, a laudable proposal. Where we\u2019ve got to with this bill is not just disappointing, it\u2019s a waste of tens of millions of dollars of taxpayer funds to get it to this point\u2014not to mention all the efforts and the good will of the officials, people who want to see good water reform, local government, and all of the stakeholders out there in communities who\u2019ve put the time and effort into submitting on these bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd there\u2019s two more bills. There\u2019s the Water Services Legislation Bill. So don\u2019t worry viewers, don\u2019t worry listeners, it\u2019s not over yet! The Water Services Legislation Bill and the \u201CWater Services Consumer Guarantees or Economic Efficiency of Something Bill\u201D. Anyway, consumer guarantees economic efficiency is done; this bill wrecks it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ll debate the others. ACT will offer our constructive suggestions. But, Minister, this bill doesn\u2019t deserve to pass with whatever title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e99c631c24084c6698f7e0ac68873314\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e99c631c24084c6698f7e0ac68873314\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is suspended and will resume at 9 a.m. tomorrow morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815367857c6affb497390a86b792cbefef5000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.58 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002295642973859f47528c50880b2ebe33ca\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 15 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5653b995d53484cab356c32c6aced63\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 16 August 2023)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022198e08511b8044789ddd5099fa7fa829\u0022\u003EWater Services Entities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002273f02636d9124fcd97e0987b068e20ba\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3157afa51f34b6dba7d1fe5536d45a5\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002236f12d8c055442b8b0f5f1bf65508213\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236f12d8c055442b8b0f5f1bf65508213\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, when we were debating this bill last night, we were on clauses 1 and 2, which are the title and commencement clauses for this bill. Are there any members who would like to take a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220c12ef920ba846788b0cd9825162fad4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c12ef920ba846788b0cd9825162fad4\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and good morning. It\u2019s good to be back again on the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m keen to get into a little bit of commentary in regards to the commencement date of this bill in clause 2. Obviously, in regards to the commencement of this legislation, there is a variety of timing mechanisms that are embedded within it. My concern, and the question to the Minister, particularly relates to the provisions that will commence before 1 July 2024. If we walk our way back and just remind ourselves\u2014and I appreciate that for some of us that causes a little bit of stress and pressure, but it is something to reflect on\u20141 July 2024 is the date when all of this three waters reform was meant to kick off originally, and, obviously, post the policy bonfire and the great reset under the new leadership in the Government, the time line for this, as per this bill, kicks that out to mid-2026. But there is a phased approach around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EClause 2, in regards to the commencement, which links to the detail around that, says that some aspects, particularly around the initiation around shared services, will be kicking in straight after the Royal assent. So my concern here is that, acknowledging that we\u2019re 51 days away from a general election and that there is significant differential in the positions around how water reform should be undertaken within this country, and taking into account that there are significant amounts of money continuing to be spent\u2014significant amounts of public money, taxpayer money, continuing to be spent\u2014on reform that, post-election, will either continue or will cease rapidly, then it would only seem sensible that, actually, all of the Act comes into force on 1\u00A0July\u00A02024. I think that\u2019s reasonable, because if the mandate is given to whatever Government comes through, then that mandate will be clear, and that is democracy. But in the context of the fact that we have still got 51 days of costs being spent on reform, which under a National-led Government will cease pretty much straight away, it seems a little bit ironic that we\u2019re continuing just to head in and not take into account the pragmatic nature of the time line and the issues of where we\u2019re at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister to put some consideration to the commencement of this legislation. The chances of him making any modification\u2014well, I won\u2019t take a bet; I\u2019m not a betting man. But, anyway, I\u2019ll give the Minister an opportunity to consider that. But, other than that, we\u2019ll finish it there. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4d0e64e5dfc4686819cf90a9b73443d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4d0e64e5dfc4686819cf90a9b73443d\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfc229410f3b4e21b5fde4394ac390cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfc229410f3b4e21b5fde4394ac390cb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220db6f77e19cb446995506217fc4c9015\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2, Whaitiri\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00222e5cba01214748d48e81cb8debdd2147\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e5cba01214748d48e81cb8debdd2147\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd02b4367cf641ac8bc2dc588270c6ac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000016\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000017\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e52e17f53b884a93ad98ffef986d84c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e52e17f53b884a93ad98ffef986d84c4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7bfa4197ff74c0190e014597e4043e6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The Water Services Entities Amendment Bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002215dca670fb564e8293cdb1f5a6258a69\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d39a2fbccd5f4a7892b544b4b8d741cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d39a2fbccd5f4a7892b544b4b8d741cb\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222da610b6934c4ccaafc35904f28153b9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6155af3e0f44d9bb08cb401b4258da6\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis country faces a massive challenge, and that challenge equates to up to $185\u00A0billion. That\u2019s a lot of money, and it\u2019s especially a lot of money when you consider that at the moment our district councils\u201467 of them\u2014are having to face that bill individually. What that means is that ratepayers are having to face a bill that they have to lend at rates that are unfavourable, which will lead to rates that are unaffordable. And that\u2019s the crux of the issue; if we don\u2019t do something, ratepayers in this country, district councils in this country, will face bills that they simply cannot afford, and rates are going up enough as they are. So this bill brings in reforms that will save ratepayers thousands of dollars each year on water services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt will also relieve councils of the burden of significant amounts of debt that is sitting on their balance sheets that councils are having to service at the moment. Now, members in this House will know numerous examples in their local areas where rates are going up at points where many people simply can\u2019t afford it. That\u2019s without taking into consideration the massive bill that they face at the moment. This is not the fault of local councils; they are doing the best they can in the circumstances they find themselves in. They are often dealing with decisions that were made many, many years ago. But the facts are very clear: there are councils in this country that are facing millions\u2014hundreds of millions\u2014of dollars, and they don\u2019t have a way to deal with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis Government, through this bill, is providing a solution to that. And it\u2019s interesting that throughout this debate, throughout the passage of this bill, there have been criticisms of all sorts of things from other parties in this House. None of them have outlined their alternative from a financial sense. None of them have outlined how it\u2019s going to pay the bills. The ACT Party, for example, have put forward\u2014which we did consider in the process of considering this bill. We looked at the alternatives. We tried to find other ways in which to do this; none of them stacked up. The proposal from the ACT Party that they will share GST with councils equates to $1 billion a year. The expenditure we\u2019re talking about is over a 30-year period\u2014$185 billion over 30 years. The ACT Party\u2019s proposal equates to a billion a year. Over 30 years that\u2019s $30 billion\u2014$155 billion short or 150 years short of the problem that we are facing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe National Party, which we also looked at and considered in good faith, are essentially proposing the status quo; they are proposing voluntary mergers through council-controlled organisations, they are proposing shared services\u2014all of that can happen already. And at the crux of this is that neither of those proposals remove debt from the councils\u2019 books. So we can say \u201CSure, work together; go for it.\u201D But when it\u2019s happening now and when councils are still servicing debt that they simply are going to struggle to afford moving forward, the simple question is: how is that a solution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat this bill proposes is that collectively, through 10 entities which largely reflect geographical boundaries, there is a way in which they can get the scale and access to lending at a rate that they can afford to do that investment to maintain and upgrade water services in this country in a way that ratepayers can afford. Originally the proposal was for four entities. When I was given the task of being local government Minister, I took on board the feedback from the local government sector. They said, \u201CWe do need reform, but we have concerns about four entities.\u201D So we looked at it. We considered 16, to go along with the regional council boundaries. But what we found was that if we left Northland, Tair\u0101whiti, or West Coast by themselves, there\u2019d be no change for them because they wouldn\u2019t have the scale. So that\u2019s why we\u2019ve landed on 10: Northland into Auckland as was originally proposed; Tair\u0101whiti into Hawke\u2019s Bay; you\u2019ve got the top of the South together, the three unitary authorities there alongside the Ng\u0101i Tahu takiw\u0101; you\u2019ve got the West Coast into Canterbury; you\u2019ve got Southland into Otago, and we end up with 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s interesting is that I think there\u2019s a reason why opponents to this proposal don\u2019t want to talk about rates. It\u2019s because they know their proposals don\u2019t stack up. We can prove\u2014we can show\u2014that the figures that back up this proposal will save ratepayers money. My challenge to the other parties as they contribute to the third reading today is: why don\u2019t they show us how theirs stack up? They won\u2019t. It\u2019s a challenge I\u2019ve put to them throughout this debate; they will not come up with figures to show that their proposals stack up, because they don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAnd that is the simple thing that equates to this bill that people have to consider: this will save them money; theirs will not. So, with all the scaremongering and all the opposing that we\u2019re about to hear in the third reading, we won\u2019t hear how their bill saves them money. That is the guts of this, and that is why I am proud as Minister to have brought this through the House, and that is why this side of the House will be voting for it. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef9402a73efd428faf6da9b834ba8e97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef9402a73efd428faf6da9b834ba8e97\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225959ea93a4d84e0797b88c352686137b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225959ea93a4d84e0797b88c352686137b\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I do rise to speak on the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. Isn\u2019t it ironic that we hear the opening words from the Minister in regards to this legislation, talking about the critique and criticism that is being levelled against this bill? You see, the reality is that our role in this House is to represent our communities, to represent the views of hard-working Kiwis across this country. It is not to simply pay lip-service to that feedback and not take into account the views of our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWell, National have listened to our communities. We have listened to local government and we have proposed a solution, called Local Water Done Well, that we believe will deal with the reform requirements of water infrastructure in this country. As the Minister failed to note in his address as he opened today, all major parties in this House believe that water infrastructure reform is necessary. It is a question of how we achieve that outcome. This bill is not the mechanism which we believe, nor the majority of local councils across this country\u2014nor, in fact, the majority of Kiwis\u2014is the pathway to achieve sustainable change in an area which is so critical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI think when the Labour Party members reflect, in 51 days, on some of the contributing factors of what happened in the 53rd Parliament, the water services entities legislation and the amendment bill that we are referring to and talking on at its third reading today will be a significant element and a significant contributing factor to the fact of where Kiwis no longer trust this Government. The three waters legislation and the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill is a litany of errors, it is a litany of broken promises, and it is a litany of making it up as you go. And that is the reality that personifies this Government and its processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ELabour Ministers, and the Minister we have just heard from, are accountable for this reform. They are accountable for its failures and they are accountable for not listening to New Zealanders in regards to how this could have been improved. Because this bill could have been improved, had we given it more than six weeks of consultation with the public. On 22 June, this bill was read, and on 27 July it was reported back to this House. Well, is that acceptable? Is that the way in which we do business in this democracy? I say no. I say that is a complete derogation of our democracy and the fact that we should be taking this legislation that we pass through this House very seriously. We got that feedback loud and clear from submitters on this bill throughout the process\u2014that they did not have adequate time to be able to consider the inputs and requirements of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis bill is a back-down bill. This bill came as a result of the release of the National Party\u2019s alternative, Local Water Done Well. Following that, with a new leader of the party and a need for a policy bonfire and a policy reset, and following the release of our alternative model, then this bill came into play. What is so frustrating is that, actually, none of the substantive aspects that needed to be changed in the bill, the elements around the mega-bureaucracies that are co-governed\u2014an opportunity was there begging to be able to make the amendments and changes in this bill that went without any due consideration. And that is a great shame, because all this bill does is change the number of the mega-bureaucratic co-governed entities from four to 10. That\u2019s pretty much it. It doesn\u2019t deal with the significant pushback across this country on co-governance within the water services and public service delivery\u2014pipes under the ground is not the appropriate mechanism. Co-governance remains unchanged in regards to this legislation. The mandating of the fact that the assets and liabilities across councils will have to go into these new entities is unchanged, with the exception of the Chatham Islands, because don\u2019t forget that the Chatham Islands is actually the one territorial authority in this country which was exempted from this legislation. Well, there\u2019s always one, but I do wish the 668 residents in the Chatham Islands all the very best, but they will not be alone in regards to the only entity that is outside this legislation; post 14 October, all other councils will join with them, and rightly so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other element of this bill that has not been modified and that received significant feedback\u20141,997 submissions; that\u2019s quite a lot. The challenge is that only 28 individuals were heard through the select committee process, and I think one doesn\u2019t have to be too good at maths to work out that\u2019s not a large number, but you can see why people are fired up and annoyed that their voice has not been heard. But the undemocratic element of this bill in regards to the Te Mana o te Wai statements\u2014and the Minister continually says, and I acknowledge, that in the prior National-led Government, there was the introduction of the principle\u2014the principle\u2014of Te Mana o te Wai. The principle is very different to the introduction by this Government, and reinforced in this bill, of Te Mana o te Wai statements. The statements are not the principle; there is a very clear point of demarcation between those two aspects, because the statements, in effect, bring into play powers and obligations on a number of individuals in regards to this legislation. It is not a principle; it goes further. And so for the Minister to say that the Te Mana o te Wai statements in this bill are simply just a continuation of prior principles under a prior Government is not consistent with what we heard in regards to the feedback during the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders are sensible and they understand that this is going to be legislation that does not deal with the underlying aspects that we need in this country. This is a back-down bill, and what is interesting to hear from the Minister in regards to the fact that this legislation will remove debt from all of those councils that are burdened with debt, and this will mean that their rates are not going to go up\u2014well, where does that debt all go? Where does it all disappear off to, because the costs and the debt required to fund the water pipes under the ground will still continue irrespective of where that ends up. So maybe the debt\u2019s coming away from the council, but it\u2019s going into another entity. And I\u2019ll tell you what: there is no magic money tree. There is no magic money tree that means this debt just sort of disappears and that no one has an obligation in regards to paying. Ratepayers and taxpayers will continue to be on the hook for the funding of infrastructure in this area. So to simply say that removing the debt from councils, and, as a result of that, a reduction of rates, is going to solve all the problems, is, again, inconsistent and, again, not noting the reality that we are simply moving this problem from one side of the boat to the other. And it will still exist, and that obligation will still exist. And, yes, we do have a deficit of infrastructure, but simply ignoring the fact that this needs to be repaid is, I think, something that Kiwis will see through and have already seen through in regards to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe opportunity that was placed upon this Government in regards to this legislation, as I have highlighted, is absolutely there for the taking. The elements within this bill\u2014there was a real opportunity in order to reset the position around water services and three waters infrastructure. That opportunity has not been taken up by this Minister, and this Minister, when reflecting on the performance of the 53rd Parliament, in 51 days, will need to take accountability for the actions that have been taken in regards to this piece of legislation and the other elements of the bill that are connected, because there is no one else that the blame can be laid upon other than the Minister, the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, and the Prime Minister, for pushing through reform that was so strongly opposed by all New Zealanders. And that\u2019s the reality: you\u2019ll hear a lot of comments and excuses around that, but that is the reality of this bill. National opposes this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002277b16600ae204f32b3fc015ab88daf7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277b16600ae204f32b3fc015ab88daf7f\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to make a short contribution today and just note a couple of specific points that came up through the select committee process and a couple of other matters just in response to the previous speaker, Simon Watts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe first point I just want to note is around the establishment date of the water services entities. We received a lot of feedback from local government authorities wanting some certainty around when they would move to the new dates for establishing their new entities. We also heard from officials that there had been significant consultation, but there was still work to be done to ensure there was agreement around the best dates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo in order to add that certainty into the legislation, we did add in a requirement for the Minister to put the dates for the new entities into an Order in Council within six months of the legislation being passed\u2014which is now. So within six months of this time, we will have those establishment dates noted by Order in Council by the Minister, which is a good thing for certainty from those councils\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe next matter that we considered was around community priority statements. One of the amendments we made to those statements was to ensure that those who make those community priority statements do have a genuine interest in the area they\u2019re making them for. In my area of Nelson and other parts of the country, we have had issues related to water where people from outside of our region\u2014with no connection to our region\u2014have been able to take court action or try to influence activity in our water areas, and it has ended up costing Government and costing other agencies significant amounts of money. So we did want to limit that to ensure we weren\u2019t going to have vexatious approaches from people outside of particular areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe next piece I just want to note is around the regional representative groups, and there have been calls from some parties to have equal weighting based on proportion of population. We\u2019re very clear\u2014and I\u2019m very clear as a provincial MP\u2014that it\u2019s important that, as part of the reform, our provincial and rural communities have strong voices sitting at the table. That has been one of the challenges around water infrastructure\u2014that our smaller councils with lower populations and larger areas to cover, particularly in rural communities, have found it difficult to invest. So we need to ensure that their voices are strong at the table so that they\u2019re not swamped by our dear friends from the large urban centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI just want to note one further point, which is the importance around that particular issue with the representation, as it helps ensure that genuine balance sheet separation. We know that we need genuine balance sheet separation so that we can invest the way that we need to. On the point of debt, by having larger entities with greater numbers of population and that genuine balance sheet separation, we can ensure that that debt will be serviced using lower interest rates, and that allows us to be able to invest properly in the way that we haven\u2019t for generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is an excellent bill. I\u2019m so delighted it\u2019s passing its third reading today, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022792fb48d020c4ee6aadf84975828cfd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022792fb48d020c4ee6aadf84975828cfd6\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, this is the \u201CBack-down Bill\u201D. It was signalled that it was coming, I predicted it\u2014or we predicted it\u2014and here it is. We\u2019re finally at the tail-end of this Parliament, considering the Government\u2019s bill that, essentially, gives effect to their embarrassing climb-down over water services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhat a shambolic process it\u2019s been from start to finish\u2014and it\u2019s a frustrating shambles because, actually, across the Parliament, there\u2019s quite a degree of consensus that water infrastructure in this country is stuffed around various different parts of the motu. There is, I think, a consensus across Labour and National and ACT and the Greens that we need more investment, we do have an infrastructure deficit. Councils\u2014some councils, not all councils, but many councils have done a poor job of managing their water assets and we need change. And you\u2019ve just got to step back and ask yourself at the third reading: how have we got ourselves into a position where the Government has managed to inflame local democracy and local communities up and down the country, where what some people would regard as slightly esoteric matters have led to billboards all around rural and provincial New Zealand. It\u2019s extraordinary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e5ba44289e4ab6b5edb8fdda5a2c6b\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not up anymore. You can\u2019t see them anymore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c05e1a10c21545edb0f0ce6854b08236\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you can\u2019t see them anymore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287cb176c2d2c4d20ab539f765a3e7e29\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d54b0f31224463bbfc45eb8b50d74e\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s because they\u2019ve all been replaced with National Party billboards, that\u2019s why. They\u2019ve all been subbed out. Anna Lorck says you can\u2019t see \u201CStop Three Waters\u201D anymore. The reason you can\u2019t see them anymore, Anna\u2014I\u2019ll tell you why you can\u2019t see them anymore\u2014is because the same people who are opposed to Three Waters have now translated their support over to the National Party and they\u2019ve put up National Party signs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022285817f94fb349caa1ea4717a50371be\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Make a prediction. Make a prediction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ef73d6f24e421ab7225d31f34e0e53\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: OK, here we go\u2014OK, make a prediction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274206874163944189726640ade6f13ad\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, Mr Bishop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dfc4ecc9e074e988c810edf535f6442\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Make a prediction, make a prediction. No, no, no\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236e831ff576c487fb8f5e01d1eb055f2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I would like to hear the member\u2019s speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ada4f01862d4a0c96cdaac547e09d60\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I want to hear Anna Lorck\u2019s prediction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f490a1d5d9e4424da6baa87016fdf754\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ll be speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb80f1d07c514f8ba32b59c020b6254e\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but are you going to make a prediction? OK, if you won\u2019t, I\u2019ll make a prediction: Anna Lorck won\u2019t be an MP after 14 October. Because she and a number of other Labour Party members of Parliament in rural and provincial\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fce32bfc68b446785230a28cbbc6fda\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222845765a17ac44f2bad99c72048d59ba\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: She and a group of Labour Party MPs in rural and provincial New Zealand know in their heart of hearts they have completely stuffed this issue up. It has led to and is leading to a big backlash. And this goes back to my original starting point, which is: how has it got to this point? Because, actually, there is consensus across the Parliament, I believe, that we need sensible water reform. But the Government, from start to finish, has gone out of its way to annoy, enrage, and frustrate the legitimate interests of local communities. It started with the Hon Nanaia Mahuta\u2019s very stupid ad campaign in which local councils were, essentially, insulted\u2014with taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014by TV ads and print ads and things like that basically saying to local communities: \u201CYour councils have got this wrong.\u201D That unsurprisingly put the backs up of local councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThen the Government pretended to go through this consultation process and said, \u201CWe\u2019re not wedded to anything. We haven\u2019t ruled anything out.\u201D But it turns out, as my colleague Simon Watts discovered, Cabinet had already agreed to a legislated all-in solution. They were out there going around the country saying, \u201CWell, we want to talk to you; we take this very seriously\u201D\u2014blah, blah, blah, all the things that Ministers have to do. But the point is Ministers have to do that, but they have to mean it\u2014the words they say have to mean something. And it can\u2019t just be a fig leaf, which is what it actually turned out to be. Then, essentially, the Government came in over the top and said, \u201CWe\u2019re going to confiscate these assets and put them into these four mega entities.\u201D And that\u2019s where the rubber really hit the road. There was a big backlash, a big controversy about that and Chris Hipkins\u2019 so-called reset\u2014the reset that\u2019s not going so well\u2014went from four entities up to 10. OK, that\u2019s a marginal improvement. But, actually, what should happen is we should let councils decide on their arrangements on their own volition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOur policy, which is I think the correct policy, is to leave councils to sort it out and if they don\u2019t deliver the type of changes that are required, then central government of course has a legitimate role. There is consensus around economic regulation. There is consensus around water quality regulation. There is consensus, I believe, around the necessity for balance sheet separation to use debt to fund these long-lived assets. That\u2019s the crazy thing about all of this\u2014there is actually quite a degree of consensus, but the Government has got the politics all wrong. And that\u2019s my second point, which is that there is a consensus but the Government has stuffed the politics and therefore they\u2019ve stuffed the policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EHowever, there are a number of objectionable elements to this bill and to the Government\u2019s water reform programme generally. The first is confiscation. As I\u2019ve already mentioned, this bill does confiscate local assets, it does take those assets off councils, and our view is that is wrong. The second thing we object to is the mandatory co-governance provisions in the bill. The Government has never properly explained why the governing entities have to have fifty-fifty co-governance; they are yet to articulate a proper reason as to why that is required. We have asked repeatedly, and communities have asked repeatedly, and we are yet to hear a reason as to why that is required. And we had the ridiculous spectacle of the now Minister of Local Government, Kieran McAnulty, arguing on Q\u002BA that mandatory fifty-fifty co-governance was necessary for balance sheet separation, which is just ridiculous. It just makes no sense\u2014and that was also the interview in which he claimed that democracy had changed in that the sort of modern notions of democracy were different and that we sort of had to all go along with this idea of mandatory\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c595d11b25a4455bb2a1ac98d7d91baf\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s going to find out about democracy in a few weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab263e1ab2f8471c856c00c83a380a31\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s exactly right\u2014that\u2019s exactly right. And so we object to that on principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThen we get to the other thing, which is Te Mana o te Wai and the disjunct between Te Mana o te Wai statements and the community priority statements. And this is really important, because members opposite, including the Prime Minister, have made much of the fact that the Government\u2019s listened and now there\u2019ll be the ability for everyone to influence the new water entities through the community priority statements. Except there\u2019s a big difference: the entities \u201Cmust\u201D give effect to Te Mana o te Wai, but in relation to community priority statements, the word is \u201Cmay\u201D. As lawyers in the House will know, there is a big difference between \u201Cmust\u201D and \u201Cmay\u201D. One compels the entities to do something; the other gives them the discretion to do something\u2014so there is a disparity. These new water services entities will have to give effect to Te Mana o te Wai statements and, as various commentators have pointed out in the public domain, the breadth of these statements is, essentially, untrammelled, very large in scope, no one knows exactly how they will be used, and the entities will have to give effect to them. The only people who can issue Te Mana o te Wai statements are mana whenua of the local area. So it is not clear how they will be used, it is not clear what they will actually have the effect of doing\u2014all we know is that the entities will have to give effect to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThen we get to community priority statements, and, as I\u2019ve said, that is discretionary. A water services entity could be compelled by law to give effect to Te Mana o te Wai, and for anyone else who decides to issue a community priority statement, the water services entity could say: \u201CWell that\u2019s all very interesting, but I\u2019m not compelled. I only have to think about looking at, and we don\u2019t want to.\u201D That\u2019s the reality; that is the legal position. Attempts were made in this House to equalise the two statements between Te Mana o te Wai and community priority statements, and the Government rejected that, the Government chose not to do that\u2014that\u2019s an explicit policy decision made by the Government. So, essentially, community priority statements, they\u2019re not quite legally meaningless, but they may as well be legally meaningless\u2014particularly in contradistinction to Te Mana o te Wai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EDo M\u0101ori have rights and interests in water? Yes, they do. The Crown conceded that under the last National Government and that remains the position of the National Opposition. But to give effect to legitimate rights and interests in water, our position is that you do not need mandatory co-governance provisions and you do not need Te Mana o te Wai statements that are legally superior to other abilities for communities to legitimately influence water infrastructure in their patch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis bill is objectionable, and the National Party will oppose it. We will sort out three waters properly in Government ourselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022092077ad4d3e4bf9a4fc2314bfb18a38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022092077ad4d3e4bf9a4fc2314bfb18a38\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I came here this morning, I passed The Paddington complex in Wellington. As I remembered the story behind that whole entire development, it was the fact that we could have built higher apartments instead of two-storey townhouses. But why couldn\u2019t we do it? It was because the city council did not have enough money to upgrade the infrastructure\u2014the pipes under the ground\u2014to support intensified housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important to look at the reason why we\u2019re here today. I\u2019ve never thought of three waters as a sexy topic; in fact, talking about probably the other types of waters, apart from the blue water, is probably something I would shy away from in the House. But like our Minister, the Hon Kieran McAnulty has talked about, this is a problem that is staring down New Zealanders, and we need to make sure that we get on top of it. We don\u2019t want the tragedy of Havelock North happening again\u2014and I want to commend my colleague here, Anna Lorck, who has been an absolutely amazing advocate for her area in Tukituki. If we want a first-class country, if we want first-class cities, we need first-class infrastructure under the ground as well. We don\u2019t see these pipes\u2014and a lot of the time we don\u2019t know that they exist or the health that they\u2019re in, but I know that if we don\u2019t invest in them, we definitely feel the consequences of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EAs we went through the select committee process, we heard from local government bodies and we addressed some of their concerns, and I want to commend the Governance and Administration Committee, and our chair as well, in terms of actually working constructively through some of those details\u2014things like the commencement dates, things like having proportional representation on these regional representation groups, but also looking at how we can make sure that we guarantee the voices of these local entities; voices of local communities. Then we balance that with the need of balance sheet separation. It\u2019s a balance on a balance in making sure that we really actually deliver the savings in terms of our ratepayers, but then also making sure that the debt structure that we have\u2014whether it\u2019s through central government, whether it\u2019s through borrowing, or whether it\u2019s balance sheet separation\u2014means that local government can use their debt targets to more efficient means or for more efficient purposes. We need to make sure that at the end of the day, we deliver a package that is helping all New Zealanders to get the world-class infrastructure that they deserve, so that\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022612ee61c9ce745c9bedc9d61b8335703\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022612ee61c9ce745c9bedc9d61b8335703\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT Party engaged constructively with the Government and with officials in the Department of Internal Affairs back in 2020, before the last election, when the proposal for the reform of the way water infrastructure is funded, financed, and delivered was first raised. At the time, when I received a briefing from Department of Internal Affairs officials\u2014that was before I was even elected to Parliament as a representative for New Zealanders\u2014the proposal made some sense. But at that time, back in 2020, officials never mentioned co-governance. They never mentioned compelling councils to hand over their assets; they never mentioned the extraordinary cost, now estimated at $3 billion, for delivering this reform; and they never mentioned that they were about to start some kind of culture war between the councils in the regions of New Zealand and a whole bunch of other people that this Labour Government promised would be given rights and interests in water infrastructure assets\u2014that is, iwi M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThese reforms, as proposed, sounded OK; as delivered by Labour, they have been an absolute disaster. That is why New Zealand needs the ACT Party: practical policy solutions for people. I\u2019m going to outline what they are, but first let\u2019s have a look at the problem. The problem that this bill tries to solve is the lack of funding and financing for infrastructure, whether that\u2019s renewals, asset management, and maintenance on existing networks. When you look at some parts of New Zealand, the age of the assets is well over 40 years old. And the thing is, concrete or clay pipes in the ground, particularly in a country like New Zealand with sensitive soils and high rainfall\u2014they don\u2019t last as long as maybe they do in very, very stable geology, so we do need to do regular maintenance. A lot of councils didn\u2019t do it. Why didn\u2019t they do it? Well, I mean, maybe one reason is because Labour, in a previous iteration, gave councils the power of general competence\u2014some people might say the power of general incompetence. Because if they are going to be allowed to focus on painting rainbow-coloured pedestrian crossings on the road or investing ratepayers\u2019 scarce and precious funds on convention centres instead of fixing the underlying pipes, sewage treatment plants, and all of these things\u2014in Wellington, they don\u2019t even have water meters in residential properties, so residents don\u2019t even know how much water they\u2019re using and neither does the council. Maybe that explains why there\u2019s drinking water running down the road and losses amount to 30 percent of the water delivered from the dams to the network. Maybe Labour is to blame for the problem with three waters and it goes back well prior to this Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EFunding and financing\u2014well, where would the money come from? Well, under this model it\u2019s going to be, apparently, borrowed and lumped onto water users. Because, the thing is, it doesn\u2019t matter what the solution is, somebody has to pay, to catch up with all the deferred maintenance and to provide for growth, because if we want to grow up in our cities, if we want to live in fun cities where more people live closer to transport infrastructure, closer to town centres, and in higher-density communities, then that infrastructure is very, very expensive. Building enormous stormwater and waste-water collection systems in our cities is much more expensive than building them in greenfield areas, but there is a way to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we come to quality assurance. Who\u2019s going to make sure that the drinking-water quality is delivered and that the outputs from stormwater and waste-water discharges are acceptable? And who\u2019s going to assure that, actually, the investment in infrastructure, whether it\u2019s maintenance or for growth, meets the needs of communities and actually meets the targets or the growth plans set out in local government\u2019s regional plans, district plans, and spatial plans? Well, we don\u2019t know. I mean, the water quality thing has been partially sorted by Taumata Arowai, but let\u2019s see where they get to. What did Labour propose? Divisive co-governance: allocating seats on regional representative groups to create the most complex governance strategy ever devised. Te Mana o te Wai is a concept which puts the spiritual health of water\u2014channels gods from one particular culture in New Zealand, channels their energy, and gives the task to decision makers to make decisions about water quality and infrastructure based on spiritual and animist concepts. Nowhere else in the developed world would any Government try to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut, unfortunately, this is not just a problem caused by Labour. Back in 2014-15, Te Mana o te Wai was proposed by a previous Government. And, look, if someone comes along to my office and says, \u201CHey, there\u2019s some concepts here we\u2019d like to write into law; we\u2019d like to get some policy up; we\u2019d like to recognise that iwi M\u0101ori, for example, or M\u0101ori in general, might feel that they\u2019re connected to their gods spiritually and that water is part of that. We\u2019d get that into legislation, make them feel better.\u201D How\u2019s that going? How\u2019s that going? Because you cannot make decisions about infrastructure and water allocation referring to a concept that is, essentially, spiritual and animist. There\u2019s no country in the world that does that; that\u2019s what Te Mana o te Wai does. It\u2019s flowing through to resource management policy, freshwater consenting all around the country right now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d1f16f0815745e0aa999a688f971bde\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Freshwater farm plans\u2014make sense of that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a280e3e4298646959273c5095b3aa19c\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Freshwater farm plans even include Te Mana o te Wai. This country is at a crossroads. We either go down a route where decision makers, people using resources, are forced to consider metaphysical concepts like Te Mana o te Wai\u2014a spiritual life force, mauri\u2014or we can just focus on delivering good infrastructure and drinking water to people in communities that need it. [Knocks glass of water] Whoops! Just like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what would ACT do? What would ACT do? We need better three waters infrastructure, including in the House! What would ACT do? Well, it\u2019s quite simple. We would solve the funding and financing problem by incentivising councils to not just sign off consents and not just sign off consents for new builds but also incentivise them with cash. That is, by returning $1.2 billion per annum, we forecast, from the GST collected on new builds, back to councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister this afternoon\u2014this morning, sorry; I mean, it\u2019s actually still yesterday according to House time. The Minister stated this morning in the House that $1.2 billion a year wouldn\u2019t go anywhere near to closing the infrastructure deficit. Well, let\u2019s apply the same logic this Government has, which is if you can borrow against revenue, potentially councils, or whatever entity comes next, can borrow $4 billion to $6\u00A0billion a year based on the leveraging allowed for under the water services reforms. So, over 30 years, that equates to about the same amount that Labour proposes: $120\u00A0billion to $180 billion. But ACT would make sure those councils or entities have $1\u00A0billion to $1.2 billion a year in revenue coming back from the GST on building, and that would help cash flow and allow that debt to be raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen, of course, there\u2019s the opportunity for large-scale land developments to enter into public-private partnerships through other revenue-generating opportunities, which could include putting targeted rates on properties or simple things like putting a water meter outside somebody\u2019s house or business and charging them for the water they use, to raise revenue. That\u2019s really constructive, practical policy. Of course, rather than following the prescriptions in the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill or any of the other legislation Labour has proposed which enshrines divisive co-governance over infrastructure assets, ACT would get rid of that. As per the amendments we tabled last night, we\u2019d say that, in fact, if councils are going to have so-called ownership in these assets, they should be given at least one share per 50,000 of residents. They should be able to vote on or off any representatives to water services entities or council-controlled organisations. They should be able to form their own voluntary associations with whichever councils or other entities they wish to. All of this is ACT\u2019s plan. We look forward to implementing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002289224c6c3c6a4319968d8bf7fb175971\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289224c6c3c6a4319968d8bf7fb175971\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, thank you. I think we\u2019ve just heard speeches from the ACT and National Party representatives that underline exactly why they shouldn\u2019t be in Government after October. We have heard from National that they\u2019ll leave it to the councils to sort it out, but we haven\u2019t seen that happen to date. The Green Party would certainly have preferred that there was more incentive for revenue sharing with councils and that there was a better programme across Government to revenue share so that local government had the resources it needs to do the vital work that it does. But we have not seen a plan from either National or ACT about how they would deal with water services. I have a real fear that the corporate model that we are moving into with this legislation and the sister pieces of legislation\u2014if National and ACT did get into Government, what we\u2019ve just heard from ACT talking about public-private partnerships, is that there would be privatisation of these entities, and that is why we\u2019re disappointed that there weren\u2019t stronger provisions in the original legislation to really provide a strong protection against privatisation with this corporate structure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere is no alternative\u2014that acronym \u201CTINA\u201D existed under the fourth Labour Government. We have seen tens of millions of dollars spent on analysis, consultants\u2019 reports, work by the Department of Internal Affairs, the Water Industry Commission for Scotland and others to develop a framework, legislation go through this House following on the establishment of Taumata Arowai as the regulator for water quality in terms of drinking water, this other legislation to establish the regulator with the Commerce Commission to provide consumer protection which we still have to complete dealing with; there is a whole framework being established here. I have not heard from either National or ACT what the elements of their framework would be. We all agree on the need for increased investment in three waters infrastructure, but we haven\u2019t heard a clear plan from the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E I do acknowledge this bill and the Minister\u2019s effort to ensure that the entities are more closely connected to their local communities who are having 10 rather than four entities. There\u2019ll still be a lot of work to do once they go live through the discussions between territorial authorities in terms of how many representatives they will have on the regional representative group, and how their votes should be weighted in the constitution to ensure that there is an adequate democratic voice from around the region. There is more flexibility now with the go-live date with the Order in Council process, but also more certainty that they have to be done within six months of the legislation being passed. There are more safeguards around the Minister\u2019s powers of direction for shared services, there is the ability for a locally led merger process, and there is a longer establishment period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut the recognition of the need for increased investment, moving things off the council balance sheet so that there can be much more debt funding of that\u2014we do need to look at what has happened in the United Kingdom with the privatisation of their two waters entities and the huge level of debt which entities like Thames Water as a privately owned company have incurred. Their level of debt increased from $5 billion in 2010 to $14.3\u00A0billion, and now that company is in serious difficulty. So the Commerce Commission will have a key job in its oversight of these entities, ensuring that the debt doesn\u2019t get too burdensome, and ensuring that there is no temptation that they be sold off in future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party is supporting the bill. It has made improvements on the principal legislation, but there will need to continue to be a lot of scrutiny of how these entities actually operate once they\u2019re established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe7e0acb269e422aa73e61e1284e3111\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe7e0acb269e422aa73e61e1284e3111\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Very happy to take a short contribution on this, the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI think sometimes in this House, we talk in a bit of an echo chamber. As I\u2019ve been out there in our communities, when I\u2019ve tried to engage \u201CJoe Public\u201D out there\u2014salt-of-the-earth people\u2014about what the water reforms look like, they get confused. They get confused. On our side of the House, we\u2019re adamant that we need reform in this space. They get confused by some of the messages from the Opposition. Just earlier this year, I found myself sitting in a room full of school principals\u2014all in charge of intermediate and high schools\u2014and I wanted to talk to them about this reform. They didn\u2019t know what it was about. They didn\u2019t know what was being achieved here. They were confused about it and maybe I reflect on it and think, \u201CCould we have done better in trying to take New Zealand on this journey?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWhat we do know is that we do need reform in this space. You heard it from our Minister Kieran McAnulty, who said he\u2019d visited a whole lot of councils up and down Aotearoa New Zealand. The one thing they were incredibly clear about was that we needed reform in this space and they didn\u2019t have the money to be able to invest in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWhen I was on that day, talking to these principals, having lunch, we talked about the messages that were out there in the public. We talked about words like \u201Casset grab\u201D and they were confused about whether or not it was an asset grab. I had to let them know that it wasn\u2019t necessarily an asset grab; it was actually a \u201Cliability grab\u201D from the entities that were going to be charged with the liability of looking after the water infrastructure for the whole of New Zealand. I had to talk about the fact that we needed some kind of mechanism, or entities, across the country that looked after their own particular regions so that they could deal with that at a local level as well. It\u2019s not an asset grab by any stretch of the imagination. It is absolutely a liability, and it\u2019s a liability that we\u2019ve been bold enough to be able to say, \u201CThis is big and it\u2019s bold and we need reform in this space.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EOne of the earlier contributors talked about Te Mana o te Wai and I want to just acknowledge the group that put a lot of work into that. I do believe that if we had switched onto actually just looking after our precious resource of water\u2014fresh water\u2014then we wouldn\u2019t be in this situation right now. We need to take a different approach, and all of us stand to benefit from accepting that Te Mana o te Wai\u2014the actual mana of the water\u2014should be first and foremost, and the commercial gain that we might be able to get from that should come not even secondary but after that. We have to look after the water. We have to look after the ecosystem around that water and then if we can make some commercial benefits of it, then let\u2019s do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EBut actually, we all rely on fresh water. We know that we need the reform in this space. Councils know they need the reform. We\u2019ve been bold and led out on this reform, but as our previous speaker from the Green Party, Eugenie Sage, said, it\u2019s still going to take a lot of work to get to the place where we need to be from the place where we are\u2014which is dire at the moment. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1a487bcf57646a398dd2ecf2aeb1e00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1a487bcf57646a398dd2ecf2aeb1e00\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on Nicola Grigg for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022e482eed3ee2745e896a2067aaa1bc979\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e482eed3ee2745e896a2067aaa1bc979\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I must commend T\u0101mati Coffey for that heroic effort in trying to rewrite history and for very, very diligently trying to avoid the words \u201Casset grab\u201D, but, at the end of the day, the whole principle of this legislation, the whole principle of these reforms, is to remove the three waters assets from the ownership of local territorial authorities. That is an asset grab. Ratepayers will no longer own the three waters assets that they have paid for and that have been administered by the councillors that they have voted into public office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe National Party is continuing to oppose the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill at this third and final reading. We find it deeply sad\u2014I suppose that\u2019s the best word\u2014that where there could have been a collaborative process where parties on this side of the House have put up fully costed, robust alternate proposals to improve the delivery of water services in New Zealand, they have been roundly ignored. But not only have our proposals been ignored, the will of the New Zealand public has been ignored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe heard in the prior bill that came before this piece of legislation that over 80,000 submitters voiced their opposition to this. This time, around 1,900 submitters have voiced their opposition. Barely 2 percent of those submitters were even heard by the select committee because the select committee process was truncated from six months down to just over a month. That is anti-democratic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe reason we oppose this bill so much is because the fundamental principle is not being achieved. It is not going to improve the delivery of water services in this country. And I look to my own patch and to the example of what will now be called Entity I, where there will be an amalgamation and a merger of the water assets owned by the Canterbury councils on the East Coast of the main divide and the West Coast councils on the West Coast of the main divide. That\u2019s about 14 different territorial authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EOn the East Coast, you\u2019ve got large, large councils like the Christchurch City Council, which represents about 650,000 people, and then in my patch, the Selwyn District Council, which is about 85,000 people, rapidly heading towards 100,000 people. We\u2019re going to be merged in with West Coast councils who have far smaller rate bases and far smaller asset and balance sheets. The Government members will argue that that\u2019s the point\u2014that there are councils that need to be subsidised. But it is not the job of the councils with large rate bases, with large asset holdings, to subsidise other councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAnd the reason I\u2019m so convinced of this is that it\u2019s actually been the mayors and councillors across the Canterbury and West Coast regions who have been the most vocal opponents of this. And I have to shout out to the likes of Nigel Bowen in Timaru and Neil Brown in Ashburton, Phil Mauger in Christchurch, and Dan Gordon in the \u201CWaimak\u201D and the councillors on the Selwyn District Council, like Grant Miller, who have put forward not only vocal opposition to it but fully costed, reasonable alternative proposals which have been ignored. And that will be the greatest folly of this Government\u2014it has ignored the voice of the ratepayers, the elected representatives. It has ignored the ideas that have come from the grassroots up, and one of the largest causes for concern with this particular bill is that baked-in co-governance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThis will be a folly of the Government. It has not had the obligation to explain to New Zealand why it sees the necessity for the equal representation of the elected members and the mana whenua across an entity. I, for example\u2014we have 14 of each. Nobody on that side of the House has explained to the people of New Zealand why this is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe also deeply oppose the priority placement of the Te Mana o te Wai statements over the community priority statements. It is fundamentally unfair and fundamentally anti-democratic. We will continue to oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022324a8bca385149bb84e397c6030f292e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022324a8bca385149bb84e397c6030f292e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Helen White\u2014I assume it\u2019s a five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3253120d64422db8b01342001bf2a8\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c09c695203514cb69b56b88b87be6495\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Helen White.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022395b0459153f44ac8eede8e9eff7c378\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022395b0459153f44ac8eede8e9eff7c378\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wanted to talk about the power of the issue of water in our lives. The United Nations in 2010 declared that safe drinking water and sanitation was a human right. This map I\u2019m holding up is from the regulatory impact statement. You can see that the map is of places that have drinking water notices in New Zealand. These are the temporary ones, and these are the permanent ones. And so, as an Aucklander, while Auckland looks relatively good, I travel all around this country and I am exposed to this risk, as are my children and my wh\u0101nau. So it\u2019s incredibly important that we get it right, because this has to be a country where we know that the water will be safe to drink and there won\u2019t be the issues that there have been, which tragically affected people who were in Hawke\u2019s Bay and Havelock North. That was the beginning of this process, because what had happened was that a lot of the councils had just not had sufficient funding, and so they weren\u2019t able to make sure that the water supplies and the sewerage systems were all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, in the floods in Auckland, I saw the danger of that in my own community, where the water overflowed from the pipes, infrastructure, etc., because that\u2019s the nature of the pipes in that area. So even in Auckland, which is better than most places in the country, I saw the risk. I saw people swimming in the floodwaters and I was worried about the quality of what they were swimming in, because it would have mixed with sewage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s our reality; that\u2019s what we have to fix. While there are a lot of distractions, this has been a very good learning process where submissions have been taken into account, and this third bill takes the number of entities up so that there is a happy compromise between people. And we have done something here that will be significant for the country, as the bill seeks to make sure that water is quality in all its aspects throughout this country and safe to drink. Thank you. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u00223f63fa394376483b88e4738b75379efb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f63fa394376483b88e4738b75379efb\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is an opportunity for me to talk about Hawke\u2019s Bay and the contribution that Hawke\u2019s Bay has made to the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. Hawke\u2019s Bay put forward a proposal that agreed that reform was necessary. Hawke\u2019s Bay put forward a proposal about how joining forces together, as councils, they could provide an option for an entity that would enable the region to deal with its water infrastructure. As the local MP for Tukituki, I strongly advocated for Hawke\u2019s Bay in their solution towards water reform. This bill has seen and listened to a large part of what Hawke\u2019s Bay was saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EWe now have 10 entities that will look to implement affordable water reform. When you join forces, you enable a cross-subsidisation for rates, and one of the reasons that we need to have councils working together is being able to afford the massive cost of infrastructure that is needed to bring our water infrastructure up to world-class standards. So by joining forces for the entity that will serve Hawke\u2019s Bay and Tair\u0101whiti, we now have our councils welcoming this reform, and that is a significant improvement in how we\u2019re going to go forward in enabling access to safe drinking water where we know that, when we turn the tap on, clean water that is safe to drink will come out of the tap. This is what this water reform is about, and this is why we need to work together to make sure that those costs that ratepayers are looking at are not too big for the ratepayers going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EBut we all know\u2014in this House, and right across New Zealand\u2014that affordable water reform is necessary. I don\u2019t want to see what happened in my electorate, where over 5,000 people got sick, and people died, and a large part of that was because despite warning after warning to invest in maintaining our water infrastructure, we didn\u2019t, and that can never be allowed to happen again in New Zealand. I think this bill will make sure that what happened in Havelock North never happens again in this country. And that is why I commend this bill to the House and thank Hawke\u2019s Bay, my region, for the enormous contribution they have made to ensuring that we put forward a bill that will work. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00222a0fad5959d9491784b31d3dd6c73c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a0fad5959d9491784b31d3dd6c73c76\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the third reading of the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. Having been a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee during the long period of hearing submissions on the first two of the four bills that now represent the water services changes, and, like many in this House, having witnessed the cascade of submitters who turned up and were virulently opposed to these changes and came with good sound reasons\u2014they weren\u2019t just emotional reasons; they were well validated views on why they opposed the three waters reforms. It was a pretty sobering exercise as we went around the country listening to all those submitters in their genuine attempts to try and get the Labour Government to at least change some elements of these proposed reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut, unfortunately, they all fell on deaf ears, and it was a pretty sad indictment of what consultation means, given some of these issues that have been pushed through by this Government, because many New Zealanders do not agree with these reforms. In fact, in many of our electorates, we\u2019ve still got signs going up: \u201CStop Three Waters\u201D, which is interesting, because people remember this and they will remember this for certain when we\u2019re going over the next few months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe big issue, I think, around this\u2014and I was involved in the British reforms of the water entities\u2014was about going from being council-owned right through, ultimately, to privatisation, which, in hindsight, I don\u2019t think was a good idea. But the reforms around how they restructured the entities and moved into more commercial operations\u2014I think if we\u2019d put up the governance structure that is proposed here in New Zealand, it would have been laughed at\u2014it wouldn\u2019t have even been considered, given the complicated governance arrangements that this bill and these proposals entail. This different layering up of diffused ownership and governance and control\u2014and, ultimately, no one has ever explained to me who\u2019s going to own the shares, because my view of ownership of shares is that if you have a share, you need to either have directorial right to control it or you must have some form of management influence. Under these arrangements, whilst the Government is keen to say that it is controlled and owned by the local authorities, that, legally, in my view, is wrong, and always has been, and no one, not even the officials who took us through this weird process, were ever able to give a proper view on who will own the shares. I think if these reforms were to be put in place, from an accounting perspective, no one, actually, would be able to say who owns the shares.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s the first thing around ownership, but the diffused governance structures have councils, representation boards, then we\u2019ve got regional advisory boards, then we\u2019ve got the boards of the entities themselves, and, of course, we\u2019ve then got the murky arrangements around co-governance. That is not to say that mana whenua don\u2019t have a role to play in water; they do, they\u2019re very important, and we should value their input, but the structural arrangements, the structural impediments that the arrangements will embed, are just something that only a weird academic would ever conjure up in terms of coming up with an optimal solution to restructure the water industry in New Zealand. It is a phenomenally complicated structure, with a lack of accountability, a lack of control, and what we\u2019ll end up with, inevitably, is very powerful CEOs, and we\u2019ve seen them being put in place at vast cost, and they will be the ones that will run these entities, because there will be little accountability above them. And the worse thing is the lack of accountability back to the original people who currently own those assets, namely the councils, and, ultimately, the residents of the areas that they represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, of course, we oppose these reforms because we want to make sure that ownership stays with councils, on behalf of the residents of New Zealand. That is the first and primary part of this. But it is very important that we put in place good oversight with these organisations around quality. Of course, we supported, way back, even before these reforms came about, the particular arrangements here. But the Taumata Arowai reforms are about making sure that we have good regulatory oversight of councils around water quality. I take Anna Lorck\u2019s point earlier in her speech: it was inappropriate. That deals with the issue around having an independent oversight of the councils around water quality; that is important. But these reforms are murky, muddy, unclear, and will ultimately lead to poorer outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ECertainly, if you\u2019re sitting in one of these regions, like Gisborne or whatever, or some small town, and you\u2019re trying to ring a head office that might be based in Wellington and talk about a broken pipe, there\u2019ll be a lack of ability to actually get someone to know where you\u2019re talking about, a lack of ability to get a local operator involved, someone who can turn up quickly and do it. Instead, there will be a monolithic organisational structure. It will be wrong, it would be poor, and we would do a disservice to New Zealanders if we were to allow these reforms to go through in their current form. Therefore, on that basis, I\u2019m happy that we\u2019re opposing these reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2931f367d5546a297f9df4a49b62b3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2931f367d5546a297f9df4a49b62b3d\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As it stands, this bill will provide significant savings for New Zealand and also, in addition, better health outcomes. The average household will be seeing savings of between $2,700 and $5,400 per year. Without these reforms the cost for the consumer will be significantly more. And I just want to also touch on the health aspect of this. What I have here is a Facebook post from the Waimakariri District Council\u2014so just in North Canterbury there\u2014and it\u2019s about the boil water notice and I just want to read it out for the house just quickly. It was from four days ago: \u201CA boil water notice has been issued for the Oxford No. 1 Water Supply \u2026 Please inform any neighbours or friends on the scheme who may not be aware of this notice \u2026 We are carrying out extensive flushing of the well and will be monitoring [it] closely over the weekend. If it does not improve, we will have to consider taking it offline for re-development \u2026 which could take up to a month \u2026 Residents on this supply need to use boiled tap water or store-bought bottled water for drinking, cleaning teeth, making ice, washing dishes and preparing food until further notice. Tap water should be boiled on a rolling boil for one minute.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s a significant concern. This is in one of our communities in North Canterbury. And Mr Bayly and Mr Bishop, in their contributions, mentioned the \u201CStop Three Waters\u201D signs. When I get out and about around the community, those \u201CStop Three Waters\u201D signs are, interestingly, in the same locations as where all the boil-water notices are\u2014in the same areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck, in her contribution, talked about what consumers really want. Most people just want to be able to turn on the tap and have clean water come out. It\u2019s as simple as that. Unfortunately, the Opposition has decided to make it into an issue that\u2019s trying to divide our country when, in fact, the average punter doesn\u2019t care. The average punter just wants clean water to come out of the tap. And it\u2019s important that\u2014we owe it to New Zealand; we owe it to Havelock North\u2014we do not have a repeat of those instances that we\u2019ve had in the past. So it\u2019s for that reason that I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a53bd7f5b0014fa8a0c0b4bf85c34bc2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000125\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00223e04ce95354d4bd3b877871873ef1c86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e04ce95354d4bd3b877871873ef1c86\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9b79ebff3aa416ca40ff7c9b6e270b1\u0022\u003EEducation and Training Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8cfa993a34040548157e1c1445c9d9e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e17fd3dd95e47a89f3afb67ea783752\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229ad7913794b24864b9bc053c90ec3cab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ad7913794b24864b9bc053c90ec3cab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3). We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 4 to 16\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0cfd1cb323c417f89131ded784606a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0cfd1cb323c417f89131ded784606a3\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f67c7cd33c6d4950a88bbabdfabc1532\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f67c7cd33c6d4950a88bbabdfabc1532\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. The question is that Parts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022da10fdcf81ba4d678fea862bbe2c6e85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da10fdcf81ba4d678fea862bbe2c6e85\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m delighted to be here in the committee of the whole House for this very important bill that we are taking through the House. I do want to say that I\u2019ve got my Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education) in the Chamber, the Hon Kelvin Davis, as well. I know that there are some aspects of this bill that he has been working very hard on, so I may vacate the chair at some point to hand over to him if there are specific questions around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EBut what I am introducing here this morning is Supplementary Order Paper 406 to fix minor drafting errors in the bill. This is presented in the form of a revision-tracked version of the bill that will be used during the committee of the whole House. The Supplementary Order Paper makes a change so that, for the purposes of developing an Order in Council made under clause 9, the annual report of a w\u0101nanga on the remuneration of employees and former employees for amounts of $100,000 or above must include a report on the remuneration of the chief executive of the w\u0101nanga. This is to make clause 9 consistent with clause 25 of the bill, which makes the same change generally for university and w\u0101nanga annual reporting on employee and former employee remunerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ENew section 398K provides for the appointment of members to the council of a w\u0101nanga. A minor change has been proposed that allows for the nomination of members as well as appointments. Minor changes have been made to new section 398S for consistency to ensure that the requirements of non-Crown entity w\u0101nanga relating to the application of the Public Audit Act can be found in the same section. Consequently, minor changes have also been made to new section 398J and new section 94A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe rest of the changes in the Supplementary Order Paper are focused on minor technical changes, improving readability, and correcting small drafting errors such as grammar or adding in missing cross references.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbdff90311114b75b5ab4f445316843b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbdff90311114b75b5ab4f445316843b\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister for her introduction. I wanted to go straight to Part 2\u2014I think the Minister will be aware I\u2019ve got a Supplementary Order Paper I want to speak to. But before I speak directly to it, I want to ask the Minister some questions around Part 2, clause 38, the co-option of members to a school board. The first question I want to ask the Minister is: why is it that one of the existing provisions around the 50:50 split of male and female has been removed from the Act and disappeared completely, and is replaced with the genders, sexualities, and sexes of the student body? I just want to ask the Minister: first off, what was it that was wrong with sexes and why has it been replaced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00224e615c2a10df40838bdd6ad2f2e7f707\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e615c2a10df40838bdd6ad2f2e7f707\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Basically because we\u2019ve got a changing view of the terminology, and that has been pointed out throughout the shepherding of this bill\u2014to understand the diversities within the community and the full diversities within the community. Can I also point out that this particular part does relate to the co-option of board members and we have around about 5 percent of our boards, so we\u2019re not talking about a huge number of our boards, but we are talking about when they are co-opting into those areas to take account of the different diversities and the differing diversities within there. It\u2019s looking at your community and your school community as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7d37ba20cd24eb38e48c64a17393d8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7d37ba20cd24eb38e48c64a17393d8f\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E One of the very good submissions on the bill from the group Speak Up for Women made the point that in the previous Education Act between 1989 and 2020\u2014when that previous Education Act was in place, we saw huge steps in the acceptance of the rainbow community in New Zealand. The Human Rights Act 1993 made it illegal to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, civil unions provided for legal representation of same-sex relationships, and finally the legislation for same-sex marriage. So huge gains between 1989 and 2020; these momentous things all occurred in the 31 years between the Education Act 1989 and the Education and Training Act 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWhen this Minister\u2019s Government in 2020 introduced the new Education and Training Act, there were no appointment criteria recognising sexualities despite all of those gains. Why it is in the last three years it\u2019s suddenly\u2014the question is: what has happened in the last three years that means wording that was perfectly fine in 2020, after all of those gains of 30 years for the LGBT community, is suddenly out of date and desperately in need of modernising just three years later? I\u2019m talking about in terms of sexualities, where we\u2019re adding it in now, where the Minister in her previous answer just said change of terminologies, and it doesn\u2019t really hold water because this Act was only amended in 2020 after so many gains over so many decades in terms of sexualities. The question is: what has changed in the last three years that we now need to add sexualities in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002253e9a826352b475f834fbf5a806ccf1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253e9a826352b475f834fbf5a806ccf1e\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Well, was it working? That\u2019s one of the reasons why we have legislation going through the House, to make certain that we are making it stronger. It\u2019s the whole reason why we are here doing this job, so I would disagree with the member\u2019s take on what she has just presented there. Specific criteria are helpful prompts to support boards to think about the diverse perspectives that need to be raised to ensure that they are meeting the needs of the diverse school community that they have. We know that there are disabled and LGBTIQA\u002B learners present in almost every school, and specifically including these terms in criteria can prompt and support boards to consider the needs of those students and their community that they are representing when they are co-opting members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo I would like to, once again, say that one of the reasons that we are doing this is because it will make it stronger for those members of the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb88444a83b24c48b71d44d68756d073\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb88444a83b24c48b71d44d68756d073\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Another good point made by Speak Up for Women is that there is an insinuation by this Minister and this Government that members of the rainbow community are not able to be elected on their own merit\u2014I\u2019m reading from her submission, and that that is offensive and untrue. \u201CAll throughout New Zealand, for many years, members of the rainbow community who want to serve have been elected to school boards. The inference that we need special treatment or recognition is another form of othering us and yet again calling us out as different. When many of us have fought for the right to be ordinary. To be boring. To be just like everyone else. To have the same rights as everyone else, nothing more, nothing less. To be chosen on merit, not because of a special identity.\u201D The reason I read that out Minister is because I want to\u2014I\u2019ve got more questions on the back of this, but I wanted you to answer their questions around this, and also that the offence that they\u2019re taking, that they believe they\u2019re able to be elected on their own merits rather than having to have a special category carved out for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00228c0bd27756c548ef8da5ef0f4f140345\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c0bd27756c548ef8da5ef0f4f140345\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Look, first of all I would like to say thank you to all submitters who took the time to submit on this bill, and while I respect the process of their submissions, I disagree with that and I\u2019m very disappointed to hear that people think that minority groups or groups that have struggled to make themselves heard do not need to be elevated because they can just stand on their own merit. Ask other people, ask other groups that have struggled to make themselves heard over time how well that\u2019s worked out for them. We need to actually acknowledge our groups in this country, including our LGBTIQA\u002B group. We need to acknowledge them and have that separate criteria so that they are seen, because if we don\u2019t have them, they will not get seen. That\u2019s not to say that they are not amazing people, but they will not get seen. That is the bottom line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe have the same here; we have a 50:50 split in our Parliament now of women and men. We got that through deliberately\u2014people deliberately, and parties deliberately going and acknowledging that we needed to do that. We were not seen up until that point. If that member thinks that people can stand on their own merit and get elected, go ask those groups that that hasn\u2019t happened to. Now, we\u2019re not talking about election here; we\u2019re talking about co-option. What we are talking about is that when board members are co-opted, they will give the reflection to those particular groups. Those groups are being seen in the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00222482e31f537e41f9a098cf3e60ad6a2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222482e31f537e41f9a098cf3e60ad6a2a\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. That leads to my next question to the Minister of Education around the appointment of these people. The ministry seemed to say, in all of the Education Committee process, that this change requires no collection of information or asking of awkward questions. But in many of the submissions that we heard from\u2014and I also have the belief that this will be a problem\u2014this simply can\u2019t be true that there won\u2019t be awkward questions. A number of people that spoke to us in committee, who are current or former board members, reflected that in many instances they simply didn\u2019t know the sexualities of their board members or if any had a particular gender identity. Some said that they\u2019d made the assumption based on things like partners or spouse\u2019s names, but on reflection they really didn\u2019t know. So others mentioned it wasn\u2019t a topic of discussion. They were focused on what they were there for: to govern the school well for every student. So my question to the Minister is: the ministry is saying there won\u2019t be any awkward questions, how does she think that co-opting members of different sexualities to school boards will happen without asking any awkward questions, or will it just be guess work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecab34439d264f40be3be40ddaa85f63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecab34439d264f40be3be40ddaa85f63\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Because I trust the schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228087a19cb0b44f33a7dae0fe25c2be86\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: My next question to the Minister is around\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276b041a1792a4bbf8136538352c4b598\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Erica Stanford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002234f241f16d8141da8ecb4ae821121084\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234f241f16d8141da8ecb4ae821121084\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, sorry. Madam Chair? Thank you. My next question is around definitions. The ministry has not defined what they mean by \u201Cgender\u201D in the bill, leaving it up to boards simply to guess. For the record, I was hoping that the Minister of Education could put on record\u2014so that it\u2019s in Hansard and we can all see it\u2014the difference between \u201Cgender\u201D and \u201Csex\u201D, for the purpose of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002243827a778be942eca061df1fd40af302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243827a778be942eca061df1fd40af302\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Here, \u201Cgender\u201D is referred to as a person\u2019s social and personal identity as male, female, or another gender, or genders that may be non-binary. Both \u201Cgender identity\u201D and \u201Cgender expression\u201D are included in the definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022236a9402f58946b3af923f1d495608f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022236a9402f58946b3af923f1d495608f3\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I ask the Minister of Education, once again, how is it that a board will know someone\u2019s gender identity, as opposed to their sex, without asking questions or collecting information? The Minister may want to think about that question and answer it later, because she hasn\u2019t answered it either time that I\u2019ve asked it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe other question I want to talk to her about is the inclusion in the section of socio-economic diversity. One of the submitters to the bill made a very similar point regarding the reference to socio-economic diversity and says that it\u2019s outdated\u2014giving a quote here\u2014\u201CIt appears to simply be a Wellington way of insinuating that poor people may not be able to be elected on merits so they may need to be co-opted.\u201D I read that as a direct quote out of one of the submissions that we got. I\u2019d like the Minister to answer the question of whether or not she thinks people of low socio-economic means are not able to be elected on to a board by their own merits and therefore need to be co-opted and added as a separate category under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd213559b8ae423695050b10b8d965a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd213559b8ae423695050b10b8d965a2\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t like doing this, but I\u2019m going to. The member hasn\u2019t had experience of working with a low socio-economic school before\u2014I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd8518b94af44beb98772bd0ab5303e2\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022375ea2cf08a8418898a725b0adb95f64\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I don\u2019t like doing this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb430e5af33a41c88203c2c1a03bb30c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: First-class Labour arrogance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224ede2a6741048a9ab5744c0a7366626\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228047f7b6a0984c738607a6e0dbb952b0\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: It is experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3e443b97c94d9bb87d4c6f79cc385d\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not. That is ignorance. That is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9d20c973240414f9c72bbdd7ef5c94b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! This is a robust House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285dc2f2b808b47bda29d211da499df03\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb9e83f77524f0b9705de301f6ffa2c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, the Hon Gerry Brownlee. I can do without his contribution. So can we just keep this to a respectful, not hectoring time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277f7bd82743449b98a18257a3b405790\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. What I was going to go and say is that in many experiences that I have had, there have been many people that have had the skills to work on the boards of trustees before, but have not necessarily put their hands up to do that, because they\u2019ve had a lack of confidence in their own ability. This gives them the ability to stand alongside the board, just as it does in many other sectors. We have the same processes in many public sector boards, many private sector boards have the same processes, where they see skills that might exist in people who won\u2019t necessarily have that confidence. This gives those boards the ability to be able to think about those people who might not necessarily have the confidence but do have the abilities and skills and knowledge to be able to be on a board of trustees successfully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI think this is a really good amendment that we are making here, or a good part of this bill that we are showing here. And I actually do thank you for the ability to be able to get up and talk about this. I\u2019ve had it from experience\u2014I\u2019ve seen many, many people who have had that experience, those skills, and that knowledge, but they do not have the confidence. This gives those boards the ability to be able to have that pathway for them to come on and develop their knowledge, their skills, and their abilities to be able to not only work on this board of trustees or their school\u2019s board of trustees but to be able to take that through to other boards as well. That\u2019s why this is here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022010dde9ae5554a5f970492b55d2f04b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022010dde9ae5554a5f970492b55d2f04b2\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I thank the Minister of Education for her answer. It was really interesting that she talked about confidence in terms of their skill and ability, but never actually mentioned the words \u201Csocio-economic conditions\u201D of that person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI guess the next question is: how would a board know? I mean, I guess that the board could seek out people who they didn\u2019t think were confident in their ability, but that\u2019s very different than socio-economic conditions. I guess the question to the Minister is: how would a board know the socio-economic position of someone that they were co-opting to the board? It\u2019s a very similar question to the one that I asked earlier about gender and sexuality, and she couldn\u2019t answer those questions, or wouldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe next question, then, is around socio-economic conditions of that family. Will they have to provide a statement of financial position? How will it be that a board will know that a particular family is in a low socio-economic group to then co-opt them onto a board? Because all the Minister just said before was their \u201Cconfidence\u201D. How will that be defined, and also how will the board know, when they\u2019re co-opting, that someone is in that situation? Rather than talking about just confidence, I\u2019m specifically talking here about what it says in the bill, because this is important\u2014it is making a change. It\u2019s talking about the socio-economic diversity of the student body and the community. So that indicates that the board will have to know the socio-economic status of the person that they are co-opting to the board. How would they know that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022c25e29f5c3b34cb2957f1ed3f3509686\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c25e29f5c3b34cb2957f1ed3f3509686\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m sure the member knows how well schools know their community. Schools know their communities inside out. They know the connections within communities. They know more than what people think they know about their school\u2019s communities. Just as I said to an earlier answer\u2014and this actually could cover all of the questions that I\u2019ve been asked so far\u2014I trust schools because I know that they know their communities inside out. Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00224d3d595e596f4bb49b970aa6faf399fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d3d595e596f4bb49b970aa6faf399fa\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Right, well that leads me to my Supplementary Order Paper, because as the Minister just said, she trusts schools\u2014awesome. In that case, why do we need a long list of things that boards must take into account? My Supplementary Order Paper removes all of them, and says \u201Cthat every board should reflect the diversity of their students and school community\u201D\u2014trusting schools to know their communities, schools, and students to be able to make their own decisions based on the skills and experience of the people that they are co-opting to that board to make sure that they have a good representation. If the Minister is so hung up on trusting schools, as she should be, then why do we need all of these carve-outs which actually leave out many groups? Because she talks in here about disabilities, but we know that there are many, many things that a student might have that are not officially classified as a disability, therefore not included in this list. It\u2019s not an exhaustive list, so why have a list at all? Because it does lead to unintended consequences where you get people who are left out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EIt is much more simple and fair, and if she indeed does just trust schools to know their communities, will she support my Supplementary Order Paper that removes all of those\u2014and all of the problems that they come with\u2014and the lack of definitions, leaving it just up to schools to decide what the differences between gender and sex are; and making the LGBT community, in one of their own submissions, just feel that they are being marginalised in this bill? And the same with people from low socio-economic circumstances, being marginalised because they are poor and not just capable of being on a board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAll of those things that we heard in select committee would be clean and tidy if we had this Supplementary Order Paper which just said \u201Cevery board should reflect the diversity of their students and school community\u201D: trusting schools to make the right decision for their community. So I put that to the Minister, and I do want to go back and just make sure that she understands that the things that I have been bringing up were from submitters. They were direct quotes from submitters, and I would like to point out the overwhelming majority of submissions on this part of the bill were in opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5712830621d4f3f81768329e7e0e1f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5712830621d4f3f81768329e7e0e1f0\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The new co-option criteria was of significant interest to submitters, and I appreciate the time, as I\u2019ve said earlier, that people gave to make their views known. Many submitters said that the bill should define sexes, gender, and sexuality. Some submitters considered that skill, rather than personal attributes, should be the most significant factors in board membership. The change proposed through the bill is to ensure that population groups underrepresented in school governance, who can feel invisible in the schooling system, have greater opportunity to have a voice in how schools are run. I remind the member of what I said in an earlier reply: you know, we think sometimes that when we group these groups together, they will automatically be seen. Ask those groups, in many other instances, how seen they have felt in other times when they have been seeking representation, and \u201Cvery invisible\u201D is the answer that they will give through that. The amendment posed by the Opposition would mean that boards may not be prompted to consider the representation of groups listed in the co-option criteria. This is just about prompting. This isn\u2019t about, \u201CYou must do this\u201D, or \u201CYou must co-opt these groups\u201D. It is about prompting those groups. If we don\u2019t have those prompts there, they might not be seen\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212bca52c0fd64c0ca2d29fd165461b8e\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you trusted schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c35e984072ec482bb19052ef44f3f55e\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely trust schools, but as someone who would love to have those prompts there, I think that this is a really, really good amendment to this. Furthermore, I reject the view that having broader community representation on school boards will result in a reduction in the skills and experience of school boards. I also remind the committee that it is not compulsory for school boards to co-opt members, or, if they wish to do so, it is not compulsory for boards to appoint people from any specific community, including LGBTQIA\u002B or disability communities. On that basis, I therefore do not support the member\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002211aae197c20c4d58a81e03b47ef63a71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211aae197c20c4d58a81e03b47ef63a71\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Just one more final question on this part\u2014well, maybe; I think so. The Minister just said that there are population groups that are underrepresented. I would like to ask her: what evidence can she state, here in the committee today, that LGBTQ people are not well represented on school boards? What specific evidence\u2014not anecdotal evidence, or things she\u2019s heard from her time as a principal, but actual data\u2014has she received? [Interruption] Well, you started this, Minister! What evidence do you have that those certain LGBT population groups are underrepresented that led her to this bill; not anecdotal, but actually data?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed58bf30dc5241f99b239fbe382dcabf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed58bf30dc5241f99b239fbe382dcabf\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m really disappointed that the member would actually minimise the views of the rainbow community, because it is the views of the rainbow community that have led to this today. And to say, \u201CThat is anecdotal, so we don\u2019t want to know that\u201D\u2014that says a lot about the views over there. We have listened to the views; we have listened to those rainbow students who have felt minimised and marginalised in their schools\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224101f433e87e4882a8dfbd315c9df9a8\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the data?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227728949916694321b58eda56a55a179e\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: There is data; if the member is looking for data, look at the mental health statistics for that particular group. They want to see themselves represented. This is a big part. You cannot be what you cannot see. When you have that representation, you can aspire to those roles, but, also, you have people that are advocating for you, who know your journey that you\u2019re going through; that know the difficulties that you\u2019re going through. We have that data. We want to turn that around\u2014we want to make it a safe and happy place for our students from those communities. I am disappointed that that member\u2014or members from that side of the House\u2014believe that this would not seek that safety and assurance that our young people would see themselves represented within that school and have people that would advocate for them. Very disappointing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u0022057c7ba312d947029a29574af987d149\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022057c7ba312d947029a29574af987d149\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just following on, I\u2019m a bit confused. Can you just confirm that you\u2019re saying that there are a group of people that are underrepresented in school boards, but you don\u2019t know who they are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00229c8d1733e79046de85f413ef5041dfae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c8d1733e79046de85f413ef5041dfae\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E What I take from the Minister\u2019s previous answer when she eventually got to the point and said she has the data\u2014didn\u2019t actually say what it was\u2014is that she actually doesn\u2019t have data. The reason I\u2019m asking this question is not from me but from our submitters. Our submitters in particular said\u2014and they were LGBT groups themselves. They came to our select committee and said that they felt that the fact they couldn\u2019t get elected on their own merit was offensive and it was untrue, that they are being elected on to school boards, and that they don\u2019t need to be singled out. So their question was, we already know that LGBTQ people are being elected to school boards in numbers and they don\u2019t feel that they need to be singled out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThat was their submission. It\u2019s not me saying this, Minister; it\u2019s a submission that we have which I want to know her view on. And they specifically asked whether or not there was any data to show that their groups were not already represented on school boards so that they would need to be singled out. They felt\u2014it\u2019s not me\u2014that this was unfair. They felt marginalised by this, and they wanted to know whether or not there was any actual data showing that LGBTQI people were not already represented on school boards so that they needed to be singled out. And, as I said in my previous contribution, they said they didn\u2019t want to be called out as being different when they\u2019ve been fighting for so long to be just ordinary and, in their words, boring, just like everyone else. They felt that being singled out in this way was not something that they wanted to do and they didn\u2019t think that it was required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo the question again, Minister, is: what does the data say in terms of LGBT representation on school boards\u2014what percentages are there, so that this change is required? That is coming from a submitter. I\u2019m interested in her answers to their questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022474120640379483eb94cd55466980428\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022474120640379483eb94cd55466980428\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E In April and June 2021, the Ministry of Education did consult publicly about the changes to the school board elections framework. They gathered the data at that point, around representation. So as part of this, they asked whether the criteria for co-opting and appointing board members should be updated. So the proposal was put that that criteria could be updated so that boards should reflect, as far as reasonably practical, disabled students and the school\u2019s disabled community; the genders, sexualities, and sexes of the school students and of the school community; and M\u0101ori students and the school\u2019s M\u0101ori community. Overwhelmingly, submissions supported the inclusion of those criteria for the co-option. Can I remind the member, once again, that we are talking about 5 percent of boards who use co-option. This is a prompt to prompt people to think about the different demographics who they represent within their school. It is a prompt. Then they are trusted to make decisions based on the needs of their school. That\u2019s what the co-option process is for. The co-option is there to make sure that those full demographics are being represented. These are prompts only. It is very, very disappointing to hear that people would not think that that was important, to ensure that wider representation within a school board of trustees\u2014very disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00220fa6af4c7cce48598d8772e4e0498eae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fa6af4c7cce48598d8772e4e0498eae\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to turn now to Part 1, \u201CAmendments to principal Act relating to [the] w\u0101nanga\u201D. This is a groundbreaking piece of legislation, but I am so disappointed, and particularly for all the people that are here today representing our three wonderful w\u0101nanga, that they have had this incredibly important part recognising the history of the w\u0101nanga sandwiched into a piece of legislation about early childhood education (ECE) police vetting and sex, sexuality, and gender of board appointments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EIt is disrespectful to the three w\u0101nanga and it is asking for a compromise from the three w\u0101nanga. They deserved better. They deserved to have legislation that was absolutely specifically recognising their proud history and recognising what an important part of legislation that this is. So I acknowledge all those from the w\u0101nanga that are here and I also thank those\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e81db10d093c420f84ce3609df12c981\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! With apologies to the member, I am sitting right in the middle of this Chamber and I am now beginning to struggle to hear the member making a contribution. It is every member\u2019s right to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a8c4cf99764a57a44e416f43fe3e0c\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that continues the disrespect of this piece of legislation. We have people here in the gallery today that have given a lifetime of work towards the w\u0101nanga. We have people here who were the very inaugural starters\u2014drivers\u2014behind their w\u0101nanga. The w\u0101nanga should have had legislation specific to them that enabled all parts of what was required to make this important part of legislation work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EInstead, they have been asked to compromise. They have graciously agreed to that compromise for the sake of getting the main part through of Crown, non-Crown entities. But they have had to compromise, and every time I read this, it feels disrespectful that they will be called \u201Ccategory A w\u0101nanga\u201D, \u201Ccategory B w\u0101nanga\u201D, \u201Ccategory C w\u0101nanga\u201D. The legislation should have been specific to this; it should have allowed the ministry to concentrate only on getting all this right, and it should have included appropriate agreed terms\u2014not \u201Ccategory A, category B, category C w\u0101nanga\u201D\u2014and it should have got protection of the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D. Now, I understand why they have accepted the compromise to get the main part through, but they should never have been asked to accept that compromise. They should never have been asked to be gracious in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThere are many people who won\u2019t understand where the w\u0101nanga came from. Obviously that doesn\u2019t include anyone that\u2019s here in the gallery, but there may be many people watching this that don\u2019t understand. I\u2019ll give the comparison of what was my own institution, the Southern Institute of Technology. It started from a Southland technical college. The w\u0101nanga had to start from nothing. They started from iwi and individuals mortgaging their own houses to get the w\u0101nanga started. They started by the commitment and the passion of people who wanted to make the w\u0101nanga work. So they did that right from the start, and now, again, we have been asking them to compromise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo I would like the Minister to tell us why they are being asked to compromise and be called \u201Ccategory A, category B, category C w\u0101nanga\u201D; they have been asked to compromise on not getting parity with the universities and the polytechnic and getting protection of the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D; and why they were not allowed to have this as their own piece of legislation, not sandwiched in against police vetting for ECE and board appointments of schools; why they didn\u2019t allow a single focus on the w\u0101nanga to get this right instead of them being asked to compromise again. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022495121ef374b493d87912fe596318c38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022495121ef374b493d87912fe596318c38\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education)):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for her crocodile tears. First of all, I would like to acknowledge the three w\u0101nanga: Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa, Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa, and Te Whare W\u0101nanga o Awanui\u0101rangi. I would like to acknowledge the aspirations of the t\u016Bpuna and the iwi behind those w\u0101nanga. The member was right with her contribution that the w\u0101nanga did have to start up from nothing, but they are by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe short answer to her question is that we worked with the w\u0101nanga. This is what they wanted. The kiko, or the substance, of the bill\u2014the framework\u2014is what\u2019s most important, and it will give w\u0101nanga time to actually develop those terms so that there can be the appropriate consultation on the terms that they want. But what\u2019s most important is the substance of this part that gives life to the aspirations of the iwi and the t\u016Bpuna behind all the w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221499a34ddc1c4f44a94ce0a2ee871257\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221499a34ddc1c4f44a94ce0a2ee871257\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I te tuatahi, e mihi atu ki a koutou, ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga. Nau mai ki te k\u014Dhanga reo o te P\u0101remata. Aue taukiri e. Heoi an\u014D he pai ake ng\u0101 piropiro o \u014D m\u0101tou nei mokopuna kei roto i \u014D r\u0101tou nei k\u014Dhanga reo. Heoi, taku p\u0101tai ki te Minita: e p\u0113hea t\u0113nei ture e aro ana ki ng\u0101 rangatiratanga e hiahiatia e ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga ki roto i t\u0113n\u0101 pire? T\u0113n\u0101 pea ka taea e koe te k\u014Drero mai te horopaki katoa me p\u0113hea an\u014D e tautoko ana t\u0113nei ture i \u0113r\u0101 i hiahiatia ai e ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[Firstly, I acknowledge you, the w\u0101nanga. Welcome to the early childhood centre of Parliament. Oh my goodness. Anyway, our grandchildren are feeling better now in their early childhood centres. However, my question to the Minister: how will this legislation address the autonomy that the w\u0101nanga desire in this bill? Perhaps you could speak about the entire context of how this bill will support those things that the w\u0101nanga desire. Thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00223f13b473b49d4582bad1ee24684c2a94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f13b473b49d4582bad1ee24684c2a94\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education)):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 koe. E mihi kau atu ki te mema m\u014D tana p\u0101tai. Koia te tino kiko o t\u0113nei pire. Taku taenga tuatahi atu ki Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa e rima tau i mua, ko te tino raruraru, t\u0101 r\u0101tou tino amuamu ko te p\u014Dh\u0113h\u0113tanga o te K\u0101wanatanga n\u014D r\u0101tou te mana whakahaere. N\u0101, ar\u0101 ka k\u012B mai ki a m\u0101ua ko te Minita M\u0101tauranga o taua taima, a Chris Hipkins, me whakawehewehe te rangatiratanga i te K\u0101wanatanga; tukuna te rangatiratanga, te mana whakahaere o ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira ko t\u0113nei pire te whakatinanatanga o aua moemoe\u0101 o Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa me ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga atu. Mehemea e hiahia ana r\u0101tou ki te whai i te huarahi o te category B W\u0101nanga, m\u0101 te rangatiratanga e whakahaere. Mehemea e hiahia ana r\u0101tou ki te noho tonu kei raro i te maru o te K\u0101wanatanga, e pai an\u014D hoki t\u0113n\u0101. Engari he whiringa m\u014D ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E[Thank you. I thank the member for his question. That is the real meat of this bill. When I first arrived at Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa five years ago, the main problem, their main complaint was about the mistaken belief of the Government that they have the authority of management. So they then said to myself and the Minister of Education of the time, Chris Hipkins, the autonomy should be separated from the Government; transfer the autonomy, the authority of management over the w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESo this bill is the implementation of that dream of Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa and the other w\u0101nanga. If they want to follow the path of a category B W\u0101nanga, it will be up to the autonomy to manage. If they want to stay under the mantle of the Government, that\u2019s also good. But it is a choice for the w\u0101nanga.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e517d3003bba4cae84a05119f02acef8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e517d3003bba4cae84a05119f02acef8\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. He whakaaro t\u0101piri. He p\u0101tai t\u0113nei ki te Minita i te mea i mea atu a N\u0101hinara he hanaweti noa iho t\u0113nei pire. Heoi kei te tata t\u014D t\u0101tou w\u0101 ki te poupoutanga o te w\u0101, e tino hiakai t\u0113nei m\u014D t\u0113tahi hanaweti. Heoi an\u014D e te Minita, ko t\u0101ku p\u0101tai: ka taea e koe te k\u014Drero he aha ng\u0101 rerek\u0113 i waenganui i ng\u0101 ara e toru? Me p\u0113hea e tautoko ai i te ia o ng\u0101 moemoe\u0101 o ia w\u0101nanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[An additional thought. This is a question for the Minister because National said that this bill is just a sandwich. However, our time is drawing close to high noon, and I\u2019m getting really hungry for a sandwich. However, Minister, my question: could you speak about the differences between the three pathways? How will the gist of the dreams of each w\u0101nanga be supported?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b676333faad24764953aac3243a00fd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b676333faad24764953aac3243a00fd0\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education)):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100e, ko te rerek\u0113tanga: kei raro i t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 momo w\u0101nanga, m\u0101 te w\u0101nanga e whakahoki ki te Karauna. Kei t\u0113tahi atu huarahi, m\u0101 ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga e whakautu ki ng\u0101 iwi, ng\u0101 iwi n\u0101 r\u0101tou i whakatinana, i whakaturea ai ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga. Koia te tino rerek\u0113 o ng\u0101 huarahi e toru. Ko te huarahi tuatoru ko te status quo. Horekau e pai ki ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga ko te status quo, engari koir\u0101 te rerek\u0113 o ng\u0101 huarahi.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E[Yes, the difference: under one type of w\u0101nanga, the w\u0101nanga answers to the Crown. On another track, the wananga answers to the iwi, the iwi that implemented and enacted the w\u0101nanga. That is the main difference of the three pathways. The third pathway is the status quo. The w\u0101nanga are not amenable to the status quo, but that is the difference of the pathways.]\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5784f63398c4981985d26dc40286bee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5784f63398c4981985d26dc40286bee\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m enormously disappointed that the Minister Kelvin Davis has turned this personal and talked about \u201Ccrocodile tears\u201D. Can I assure him that having worked with Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa for over two decades, I saw people like Rongo Wetere, who went through not only financial sacrifice but enormous personal sacrifice both for him and his family as their reputations were torn apart as they tried to establish and grow their w\u0101nanga. So there are no crocodile tears here; there is real understanding of the sacrifices that were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased that the work was done with the w\u0101nanga, and there has been no criticism of that. Indeed, that\u2019s what I\u2019m saying; there should have been more time, more focus entirely on working with the w\u0101nanga to get all these components of the implementation correct. And so my question to the Minister is that everything that was done was in accordance with what the w\u0101nanga wanted. Can you tell me, did the w\u0101nanga ask to be called \u201Ccategory A w\u0101nanga\u201D, \u201Ccategory B w\u0101nanga\u201D, \u201Ccategory C w\u0101nanga\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226cb6b27a3e5b44bcbe3b0634921995df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cb6b27a3e5b44bcbe3b0634921995df\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education)):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Look, the member has to realise that the path that has been taken is the path that was chosen by the w\u0101nanga. There was intensive engagement over probably five years to get to this point and it is the substance of the bill that is the most important. So the initial naming was a \u201CCrown entity\u201D and a \u201Cnon-Crown entity\u201D, and that wasn\u2019t satisfactory to the w\u0101nanga so this is just basically a placeholder so that the time can be taken to get the names right. But there needs to be appropriate consultation, because the whole term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D is contentious in itself in that universities can call themselves \u201Cwhare w\u0101nanga\u201D but the w\u0101nanga can\u2019t call themselves \u201Cuniversity\u201D because of the protected term. Also various iwi and hap\u016B and wh\u0101nau hold w\u0101nanga. We don\u2019t want them to think that they would be excluded from using \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D. So there needs to be a discussion in Te Ao M\u0101ori about the use of it and the appropriate names. So that that will take some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EBut the substance of this bill is what is most important to the w\u0101nanga, and the name can come at an appropriate time in the future when everybody has had the appropriate discussions around the names for the types of w\u0101nanga they will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022582b4bd0e2eb40008b2c03b2faeb83e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022582b4bd0e2eb40008b2c03b2faeb83e8\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think the Minister has answered the question himself, that if there had been sole focus in this legislation on the w\u0101nanga amendments, then that could have been worked through. Can I just make it very clear that the majority of submissions to this bill were about the sex, sexuality, and gender of seconded board members. That\u2019s what took up the time of the select committee. That was what the focus was on and the Minister is quite right, the focus should be on the consultation with w\u0101nanga but it should have been in its own legislation. It should have been totally concentrated on and focused on that, because that was important to get the implementation right and instead they have been asked to compromise. They have graciously agreed to it, but I can almost guarantee that at the start of this process they did not put their hands up and say, \u201CPlease call us category A, category B, and category C w\u0101nanga.\u201D They should have been given the respect, the time, the concentration, and the focus to get not only the core of the changes here right but the implementation right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002297cb44ae2a7c4ae9ad73ab9cba7669cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297cb44ae2a7c4ae9ad73ab9cba7669cf\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education)):\u003C/span\u003E In a perfect world maybe what the member says would be great, but in my perfect world this would have happened 183 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa535cc373e446e396306cc654b931fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa535cc373e446e396306cc654b931fa\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I note your colleague Minister Jackson was nodding as my colleague Penny Simmonds was making submissions around the issue of timeliness. So, Minister, the Education and Workforce Committee report\u2014I didn\u2019t sit on the select committee, but I have read the report\u2014it states very clearly that: \u201CSection 390 of the Act protects the use of the terms \u2018university\u2019, \u2018polytechnic\u2019, and \u2018institute of technology\u2019 \u201D and that \u201CAll three w\u0101nanga told us the term \u2018w\u0101nanga\u2019 should similarly be a protected term.\u201D The select committee report also clearly states: \u201CHowever, there has not been adequate consultation and robust policy development for this proposal.\u201D, which is further reinforced by a statement, in relation to Crown entity w\u0101nanga and non-Crown entity w\u0101nanga, that \u201CThere is insufficient time at this stage of the legislative process\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EMinister, it\u2019s noted that when this bill was introduced to the House on 28 March of this year, submissions were called for with a closing date of 1 May 2023. Is it the Minister\u2019s opinion and evidence that 24 working days\u201424 working days\u2014was sufficient and respectful consultation with the three w\u0101nanga represented here in this Whare today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002249c1aa31b92444ddbd72a450134225ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249c1aa31b92444ddbd72a450134225ca\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education)):\u003C/span\u003E As I said earlier, this has been probably five years in the making, the discussions with the w\u0101nanga. She\u2019s asking whether 20-something days is enough time\u2014look, to be honest, we\u2019ve got to this point and the only thing that is holding this up are the questions that are coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c72cfe8b44b7492391bf280613c9e78a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c72cfe8b44b7492391bf280613c9e78a\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002252c486f8853d42ccbd0a81be5469bb0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252c486f8853d42ccbd0a81be5469bb0c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 406 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00224a8d11a8f19b451b9458d954a67f59df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a8d11a8f19b451b9458d954a67f59df\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Erica Stanford\u2019s amendment to clause 38 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 402 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d399e46447646f097b3ab97f428e6a2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori\u00A02; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000218\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000219\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00222730e7bd26a24d12bb2ae4d0bd3d8ba9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222730e7bd26a24d12bb2ae4d0bd3d8ba9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3) and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00221ceed364ebef4f9a9246e00c4b7ca1a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ceed364ebef4f9a9246e00c4b7ca1a5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf1668d5d93f4a239ac75aa7ea5e9190\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022af54cfd3bced43ef93429ceec21d0591\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af54cfd3bced43ef93429ceec21d0591\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259a370cc21bf426f90db746c00176491\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265185c9c4fa3463388d19b58923964fb\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No\u00A03) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to start by thanking once again those who took time to submit on this bill and the hard-working members of the Education and Workforce Committee who carefully evaluated the views of the public and helped strengthen this bill by providing useful suggestions and deliberation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThis bill will provide important and necessary changes to the Education and Training Act 2020 that will support great outcomes for students across the education sector. It will support the rangatiratanga of w\u0101nanga, enable school boards to better fulfil their role in keeping our schools safe, strengthen school governance, and increase accountability and transparency in education institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe most important and significant change in this bill is the establishment of a new governance framework for w\u0101nanga to better recognise their mana and rangatiratanga. I am going to leave it to my colleague the Hon Kelvin Davis to speak to these changes and the other proposals that impact kaupapa M\u0101ori education in detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI would like to mihi to those people who are in the gallery to support this, but also, as the education Minister, I want to show my absolute delight that something, as we heard my colleagues say in the committee of the whole House, that has taken a significant amount of time has got to this point. I am absolutely excited and ecstatic that we are able to pass this here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EAnother important change in this bill that we haven\u2019t heard too much about is the strengthening of school board eligibility requirements to ensure that they adequately reflect the role the school board members have in providing a school that is a physically and emotionally safe place for students and staff. That is really important. The changes that we are making around board eligibility, when they come on to board membership, are all about the emotional and physical safety of our students and staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe bill ensures that people who have been convicted of an offence listed in Schedule\u00A02 of the Children\u2019s Act 2014 are not eligible to serve on a State school board unless they have been granted an exemption by the Secretary for Education. This is something that has been raised with me a number of times around keeping our young people safe by looking at those board members and how we can strengthen that. Today we are putting right something that was a bit of an anomaly in the previous legislation. The bill also empowers the secretary to conduct audits on school board members to ensure that they meet eligibility criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EIn parallel to these changes, a code of conduct for school board members was recently issued, which makes clear board members\u2019 responsibilities and expected standards of behaviour. Both the code of conduct and these eligibility changes contribute to safeguarding our schools and increasing the confidence of school staff, students, and the school community that board members are suitable for the role and acting appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI would like to thank particularly the New Zealand School Trustees Association, who have had a lot of input into developing both the code of conduct and the changes that we are making through this bill here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe bill enables the ministry to publish or disclose data relating to the socio-economic status of children attending early childhood education services, and their families, for the purpose of developing an early childhood equity index. A really important part of this is that we found that, again, there was a bit of an anomaly around being able to share that data across from Statistics New Zealand, and we are able to do that quite easily after this. I\u2019m really happy that we can do this to ensure that that equity index can be developed in its entirety. It is really important to make certain that we have equal opportunities right from our youngest learners within the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe bill makes three changes to the board election provisions to ensure that the governance of our schools is representative and efficient. The first of these we haven\u2019t heard a lot about either, but this is actually really critical. The first is a one-off practical change to shift the timing of the next mid-term school board elections to November of this year. It is important that we get this legislation through right now, because that\u2019s November of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe 2022 triennial school board elections were moved to allow time for changes to be made to school board election settings. This shifted the next mid-term elections to March\u00A02024, which means election processes would need to begin in the summer holidays. This amendment avoids this impractical timing by reverting schools to the usual election timetable, and it is something that schools have wanted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe second change modernises and expands school board member co-option and appointment criteria to ensure that boards reflect, as far as reasonably practicable, the genders, sexualities, and sexes of the student body and the community of the school and the diversity of schools\u2019 disabled students and disability community when deciding on members to co-opt or appoint. This update makes the criteria for school board co-option more inclusive and encourages board members to think about how they can best reflect the diversity of their school students and community. I remind people in this House that we are talking about 5 percent of boards who use the co-option as a process to make sure that their communities are appropriately represented within their board of trustees, and this is a prompt for them to think about the different diversities within their school community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe final change to school board election provisions is to enable school boards to fill the student representative position if a student is not elected at the annual September elections. Currently, if no student representative is elected at the September election, the vacancy cannot be filled until the next election. This change will allow the vacancy to be filled and support the Government\u2019s priorities in education to reduce barriers and increase student participation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe bill builds on previous amendments that have strengthened police vetting requirements for non-teaching and unregistered workers and contractors at schools and early childhood services. Again, we\u2019re talking about the safety of our young people, which is critically important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThere are other changes that this bill is making to support accountability and transparency within our education sector. It requires universities and w\u0101nanga to publish information about the remuneration and benefits of employees and former employees for amounts of $100,000 or more, improving transparency within that part of the sector. The bill restricts the appointment of the chief executive of Te Aho o Te Kura Pounamu to a term of five years, with the ability to reappoint for further terms. Finally, the bill makes a number of minor and technical amendments to the Education and Training Act to ensure that it is fit for purpose and to tidy up and modernise the language within the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI am convinced of the positive and meaningful impact that this bill will have on our education sector, particularly the new enabling framework for w\u0101nanga that has taken many, many years but is a significant reflection of the progression in the relationship between the Crown and w\u0101nanga. I am absolutely delighted to commend the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3) to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022412dd04d19fb422c907d6fd6f6de6317\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022412dd04d19fb422c907d6fd6f6de6317\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022161d6d48da2640f6954d292c2086a9f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022161d6d48da2640f6954d292c2086a9f3\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on this. Well, my comments in a previous debate on this bill have been borne out by the Minister\u2019s speech. It took eight minutes before she mentioned the w\u0101nanga. My point is that the w\u0101nanga is not first and foremost in this legislation. The Minister has got a piece of legislation here that tidies up data sharing, timing of school boards, elections, secondments to school boards, police vetting of early childhood education (ECE)\u2014but in the gallery, we have people who came here to hear about the groundbreaking change for the w\u0101nanga. The importance of this for the w\u0101nanga has been completely undermined by sandwiching it in with other bits and pieces of legislation. It has been disrespectful and it has not enabled a full process to ensure that the implementation of this legislation for the w\u0101nanga can go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI am delighted for the w\u0101nanga that they have had success in achieving Crown or non-Crown entities. But I am sure they are not delighted to be called \u201Ccategory A w\u0101nanga\u201D, \u201Ccategory B w\u0101nanga\u201D, \u201Ccategory C w\u0101nanga\u201D\u2014they should have had the full concentration of this Government and of the ministry officials in getting this legislation right. The w\u0101nanga have been asked to compromise and they have done that graciously, but they should not have been asked to make that compromise, and I apologise to them that they have been sandwiched in with data sharing, timing of school boards, secondments to school boards, ECE, and police vetting. You should not have been put in that position. You should not have been pushed to the eighth minute of discussion in this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EIt is important that we recognise why this legislation needed to come into play. And, again, it\u2019s about the proud history of the three w\u0101nanga, dating back to 1981. Each of the three w\u0101nanga have quite different historical evolution, some by iwi: Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa, in 1981, arose from their very strong iwi base. Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa, which I had the privilege of working alongside for over two decades: pan-iwi, and it had a different history, driven out of the passion and the innovation of Rongo Wetere and his family, who, again, I make the point, put not only finance into this but also put his time and his reputation and his family\u2019s efforts into this as well, because of his concern about the number of young M\u0101ori that were being excluded from their schools. And so he started in Te Awamutu and it was a real privilege to see that w\u0101nanga go from about 1,400 fulltime-equivalent students up to, at one point, over 3,000 fulltime-equivalent students\u2014bar none, the biggest tertiary entity in this country. I know now they have settled down to around 19,000 or 20,000, but that is still a very large, important entity in our tertiary education space, and I recognise the solid leadership of my friend and colleague Nepia Winiata and his team with Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EAwanui\u0101rangi had another slightly different proud history to it, that was started by the very respected T\u0101 Hirini Moko Mead, who decided, in the late 1980s, that he should establish a w\u0101nanga, and for six or seven years, he and his passionate group of people pushed this concept and opened in Whakat\u0101ne with their very modest w\u0101nanga at that time, their very modest campus\u2014just a couple of transportable classrooms. But that campus today is a very beautiful campus with a very beautiful set of buildings and a very strong set of particularly post-graduate qualifications that enable people to flow through from a lower level of qualifications right through to post-graduate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ETo me, the w\u0101nanga are the hub of developing and educating young M\u0101ori leaders of the future. And so I thank them for the work that they do in that space, but I also thank them for their generosity of spirit in extending that out well beyond M\u0101ori. In our space in Southland, we have worked in partnership with the w\u0101nanga to ensure that we have one of the highest uptakes per head of population of people learning te reo M\u0101ori, and that is only because it was enabled by partnership. So I thank them for their generosity of spirit, of taking it beyond young M\u0101ori but extending it to people of all ethnicities and all ages. So not only do the w\u0101nanga have a proud history but they also have a very important part to play in our society going forward, and I thank them for their willingness to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI want to talk a little bit about the protected terms, because, again, people may not understand how important it is not only to recognise the past and the history and the development and the evolution of the w\u0101nanga but also the need to protect the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D. So the polytechnics, the universities, have absolute protection of their term; nobody else, no entities in this country, can use those terms \u201Cuniversity\u201D or \u201Cpolytechnic\u201D, but any entity that wants to can tack w\u0101nanga on to their title. So you will see a number of other organisations that put a translation into their title of w\u0101nanga; there is no protection whatsoever, and so the three w\u0101nanga that are sitting here represented today have no protection of that term, and it puts them out of kilter with the other players in the tertiary sector, the polytechnics, and the universities. And that is not acceptable, and that is why we keep saying this legislation should have been solely focused on the w\u0101nanga and getting the legislation right to ensure the implementation is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo we are opposing the legislation not because we oppose the ability for the w\u0101nanga to be Crown or non-Crown entities but because we oppose the secondment part for the boards of the schools, and we oppose the fact that this legislation has required the w\u0101nanga to compromise and accept that they are not getting the full package that they should have in this legislation. So with that, Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9bad71249264533bd9e071943c2763f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9bad71249264533bd9e071943c2763f\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education)):\u003C/span\u003E E te Whare, hei t\u012Bmatanga k\u014Drero m\u0101ku e mihi kau ana ki a koutou o ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga e toru, o Raukawa, o Awanui\u0101rangi, o Aotearoa. E mihi kau ana ki a koutou, \u014D koutou moemoe\u0101, \u014D koutou t\u016Bpuna me ng\u0101 iwi kei muri i \u0113nei o ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga. N\u0101 reira t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Nau mai, haere mai, whakatau mai ki t\u0113nei Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E[To the House, for my opening comments let me greet you of the three w\u0101nanga, Raukawa, Awanui\u0101rangi, Aotearoa. I acknowledge you all, your aspirations, your ancestors and the iwi that are behind these w\u0101nanga. So I greet all of you. Welcome, welcome, welcome to this House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis is personal for me. People may think that the first reading of the bill was the start of the journey for me. I alluded to, in the committee stages, that myself and the Minister of Education at the time about five years ago, the Hon Chris Hipkins, went up to \u014Ctaki to meet with Raukawa about their aspirations. They\u2019d sent a letter to us that\u2014I guess the real guts of it was this disparity or the belief that k\u0101wanatanga should override rangatiratanga. I looked at the letter that they\u2019d sent to me and I said, look, the issues that they raised I thought, naively, being a new Minister, that they could all be sort of addressed in a couple of months. Well, how wrong was I, because five, six years later, we\u2019re getting to the conclusion of that part of this journey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EBut even then, that wasn\u2019t the start of this journey for me. I remember in the 1970s I was still at primary school, and I\u2019d barely travelled south of Auckland at that time, but for some strange reason my father, his older brother, my uncle Rome, his daughter\u2014my first cousin, Alice-Rose\u2014and my older brother Greg were off on this adventure driving down to the bottom of the North Island to this place that sounded so exciting\u2014it had traffic lights; it sounded like a real adventure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThey were going to be away for a week and I wanted to go, and my father said, \u201CNo, you stay at home.\u201D and I remember having little tangi, as I did, that I couldn\u2019t go off on this adventure, because I\u2019d never been to \u014Ctaki before. That was at the time when Raukawa were talking about their future aspirations for education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EBut even then, this story doesn\u2019t start there. Again, I alluded to it: in a perfect world, 183 years ago we would\u2019ve had stuff happening, because 183 years ago, in February of 1840, my tupuna Wh\u0113toi P\u014Dmare signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi. I mentioned him in my maiden speech and said I believe that at the time, he was signing Te Tiriti for a better world for his uri\u2014his descendants\u2014but barely had the ink dried on his signature there and we know that Te Tiriti was not being honoured. There were three parts to Te Tiriti: k\u0101wanatanga, which we have; rangatiratanga was guaranteed\u2014and this goes back to the very essence of that first hui myself and Chris Hipkins had at the time in \u014Ctaki. I\u2019ve always said that when k\u0101wanatanga and rangatiratanga work together, that\u2019s where we\u2019ll see magic happen and we\u2019ll see the article 3 promises of equity being realised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EBut we know that rangatiratanga has been suppressed by k\u0101wanatanga for 183 years, and this bill is starting to turn that around, where rangatiratanga have their say, where they can make the w\u0101nanga through rangatiratanga, can assert their rangatiratanga, and make their decisions for their people and anyone else who wants to enrol and go to a w\u0101nanga. If we just would\u2019ve allowed that 183 years ago, we would\u2019ve seen more equitable outcomes throughout Aotearoa in education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EBut it probably doesn\u2019t even start there, this journey, for me, because I want to go full circle: my tupuna Wh\u0113toi P\u014Dmare, who signed Te Tiriti in February of 1840, his wife was Te Rangingangana. Te Rangingangana was a daughter of Te Whatanui from \u014Ctaki, the chief of Raukawa. So I\u2019ve never forgotten that. That\u2019s the reason that my father, his brother, my brother, and my cousin went down to \u014Ctaki in the mid-1970s, to engage in those discussions around education for the descendants of Ng\u0101ti Raukawa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESo it is personal. It is very personal, but it\u2019s also more personal for us as M\u0101ori because we, and our cousins, our nephews, our nieces\u2014they\u2019re the ones that haven\u2019t achieved those equitable outcomes in education that were promised under Te Tiriti o Waitangi. So what we are doing today, 183 years late, is just sort of trying to right the balance and close off that part of this journey, because this isn\u2019t the end; this is just part of the ongoing journey, and the w\u0101nanga have a huge role to play in the ongoing success of our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EEducation is the pathway forward. I was an educator, and so was the Minister of Education. I was a teacher and principal for 20 years, and I grew up on a street with 14 families; 95 children in those 14 families, not counting the wh\u0101ngai and all the mokopunas\u2014that was just the children of the people who owned the homes. Close to 100 of us, but only three went on to university\u2014only three. If we\u2019d had the w\u0101nanga established back then\u2014or, you know, back 183 years ago\u2014we may have seen more of those 95 kids on that street end up with higher qualifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAnd I have to acknowledge\u2014so only three people on that street went on to university and got a degree: my older brother, the one that happened to go to \u014Ctaki on that adventure in the 1970s; my younger sister; and a girl across the road who also became a teacher. That was until about three years ago, when I was invited to speak at the graduation of Te Whare W\u0101nanga o Awanui\u0101rangi, and, would you believe, just totally coincidentally, two people\u2014my next-door neighbours in that street in Kawakawa\u2014the same age as me, so in their 50s, graduated with a degree that day, and I was able to present it to them. So, of those 95 kids, five now have degrees. In one day, at that graduation, we almost doubled the educational achievement of the 95 M\u0101oris who lived on Leonard Street in Kawakawa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s what this is about. And, yeah, it\u2019s not a perfect world. I\u2019d really love to see the Opposition support a M\u0101ori education Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7e525da040c43f38247206942612258\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Never gonna happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260e78b565ee4458d960fb0c1d984aa63\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll never happen, will it? You know, in a perfect world it all would\u2019ve happened, you know, as Penny Simmonds says, but it\u2019s not a perfect world. But we worked alongside the w\u0101nanga to get to this stage, and it\u2019s the kiko of the bill that\u2019s the most important, and we\u2019re going to achieve that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge all of those people in the w\u0101nanga who set about on this path, in all of the w\u0101nanga\u2014all those intense meetings. You know, we were basically working to a time frame where if one thing went wrong, we wouldn\u2019t have met the stay; it could\u2019ve been booted out until after the election, then who knows what might happen. So we had to\u2014we had to\u2014make it happen. And, yes, thank you for the concessions to all of the w\u0101nanga, but I also want to acknowledge all the ministry officials who slogged away, and for them\u2014we were talking last night\u2014they\u2019re so excited because we are achieving this against the odds, and we did it together: the officials and the w\u0101nanga working together. K\u0101wanatanga, rangatiratanga working together, and the magic has happened. And it\u2019s going to be, at the end of these\u2014there\u2019s nine more speeches. At the end of those nine speeches, it\u2019s done, and it is just a great moment for all of us to celebrate, everybody in this room.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d just like to take those final minutes to acknowledge everybody: the officials, the people of the w\u0101nanga, those who just have had the patience to wait for this moment, and we\u2019re just continuing to see those aspirations that were started in the 1970s, that my tupuna Wh\u0113toi P\u014Dmare had when he signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi back in 1840. Those aspirations are finally being realised, and I just want to acknowledge everyone for the parts that they have played in making that so. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00222e59e94ab16d4a7a8e391b323ea59c93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e59e94ab16d4a7a8e391b323ea59c93\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on this bill. As we know, this bill will be passed today and I know that the three w\u0101nanga who are represented here today will celebrate the new Government\u2019s framework that will be created from this bill. I think Penny Simmonds made this point, and I\u2019d like to reiterate this point, that we support this part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe have made some comments around the fact that we\u2019re disappointed around the fact that we weren\u2019t quite able to get everything that I know the w\u0101nanga wanted in terms of the terms that were placeholders in the bill\u2014A, B, and C\u2014which we didn\u2019t think were perfect and we would have liked to have seen worked on a little bit longer and made sure that in the bill we had the proper terms rather than those placeholder terms. I thank the w\u0101nanga, though, for their patience and for agreeing to A, B, and C even though I know that they would have wanted proper terms, but I know that the w\u0101nanga just wanted to get this bill through. So thank you for your patience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe did make the point, in our differing view\u2014the National Party and ACT Party differing view\u2014that we were not happy with the placeholder terms of A, B, and C. We also made it clear that we are very supportive of protecting the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D\u2014and we all understand the problems with that which were raised on both sides of the House today. But I think we\u2019ve put on record that we support very much the protection of that term, that the w\u0101nanga deserve that. I do hope that in the future we can get to a point where we are able to do that. It was a shame that there wasn\u2019t the ability to get there in this bill, but I think we\u2019ve put on record today our support for that and that we would like to see that happen in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to put on record the National Party\u2019s support for choice in education, especially in M\u0101ori education. I\u2019d like to put on record that the first k\u014Dhanga reo in this country was set up with the support of a National Government. The first kura kaupapa was set up under a National Government. And in fact, the charter schools that were set up under a National Government and supported at the time by Minister Willie Jackson and Minister Kelvin Davis, who very quickly changed their tunes, were set up under a National Government. And many of those\u2014many of those\u2014were run by incredible M\u0101ori educators that we support and in fact we would like to see more of. We want to see more choice in education; we would like to see more choice in education. We would like to see more incredible M\u0101ori academics and M\u0101ori educators setting up charter schools that provide choice for M\u0101ori students in this country. And I know that Kelvin Davis and I know Willie Jackson supported them\u2014until they didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d like to move on, because I think I have quite well put on record our support for that part of the bill. It has been incredibly frustrating that this bill was not just about the w\u0101nanga. From our perspective, we would have liked to have seen a piece of legislation that respected w\u0101nanga that was just for you, but instead we got a bill with lots and lots of other pieces jammed into it, some of which we oppose. But I want to make it very clear today, we are opposing this bill not because of the changes to the w\u0101nanga, but because of other changes in the bill that I think I made clear earlier in our committee process. And I\u2019d like to move on to that part of the bill, having made our intentions very clear around the w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI do want to move on to the part of the bill that we are opposing. Unfortunately, my SOP, my Supplementary Order Paper, was not accepted but I think it made the very clear point that we don\u2019t need and we don\u2019t require a very, not a long list, but a list of different groups of people that boards need to take into account when they are making co-options to their board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe Minister made it very clear in her contributions that she trusts schools. She trusts principals because they know their communities best. Well, what better way to trust communities, to trust boards, to trust schools than to let them make their own decisions? They don\u2019t need prompting. And the reason\u2014and I found some of the submitters at the Education and Workforce Committee made very, very good arguments around why those \u201Cprompts\u201D, as the Minister now calls them, were not required. I think it was very strong, the submissions that were made\u2014especially from those rainbow communities who said that they do not need to be singled out, that they are perfectly capable of being elected on to a board because of their skill and their ability; that they didn\u2019t need to be singled out, that they felt like this was marginalising them even further. Those were their comments, and they meant a lot to us on this side of the House when we were listening to the submissions, I thought they were important contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI think that what it led on to was a whole lot of problems that this throws up around definitions, of the difference between sex and gender that we\u2019re leaving up to schools\u2014the fact that it is very, very difficult to determine, without asking awkward questions or collecting data, people\u2019s gender or sexuality. The ministry seemed to say that it wouldn\u2019t require any collection of data or any asking of awkward questions, but the people who submitted to our committee overwhelmingly said that actually this would lead to awkward questions. And many of the people who served on those boards said to us that they didn\u2019t even know what the sexuality was of the people who were sitting on the boards, they just knew the capabilities and the skills of those people in getting the jobs done that they needed to get done properly. So we are very worried about the definitions, we\u2019re very worried about the collection of data and asking of awkward questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the same when it comes to those low - socio-economic groups of people who are\u2014the Minister said in her contribution, she called them, well, she said that they didn\u2019t have confidence, but she never actually talked about the fact that they were potentially from low-income communities. Again, we have problems with the assumption that people are from those communities. Again, the Minister came back to, \u201CWell, we just have to trust the boards and they know best.\u201D Well, if that is the case, then there is no need for this part of the bill. It\u2019s unfortunate that we couldn\u2019t get to a position where we just accepted that every board should reflect the diversity of their students and their communities. Because I think that by having a list of people that need to be considered leaves many people out, causes more problems than it solves, and is throwing up a lot of issues for boards, now that they\u2019re going to have to think about it\u2014that, I imagine, will cause more confusion for them when actually they were already taking into account the make-up of their school communities and their student bodies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI think one of the telling things from the Minister when she was asked about the data was that she didn\u2019t have any data. She makes claims that these people are underrepresented on boards, and the claim from the rainbow communities that submitted to our committee was that they don\u2019t feel that they are underrepresented on these boards and that they are able to get there on their own. And so when I asked the Minister if she had any data, she was not able to point to a single piece of data that showed that the LGBT community is underrepresented on our boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf8e501cddc40be98e9277a36457320\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: This is shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f10c6d454ef34156a5de8b3fd3149d6e\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The members opposite like to say that \u201Cthis is shameful\u201D, but I am reading directly from submissions that were given to us by submitters. Now, if the members opposite would like to maybe email those submitters and say that their submissions were shameful, well then I welcome them to do that. But I am reading out what their views are that they said to us, that they didn\u2019t feel like they needed to be separated out and they wanted to know whether or not there was any data that actually showed that they were underrepresented. When I asked the Minister, she was not able to give one single bit of data that backed up her claim that we needed to have this in there. Those communities said to us that they doubted whether or not it needed to be in there, they didn\u2019t support it, and the Minister wasn\u2019t able to back her claims up with any data\u2014as per usual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo while I welcome very much today the inclusion of the changes to the governance structures for w\u0101nanga, and while I have put on record our support for choice in education and the setting up of more choice in the form of charter schools, or designated character schools led by amazing M\u0101ori educators\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3978dc396fc4db2823d3e7b6d890d2f\u0022\u003EPenny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Like Willie Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022235ca19f74224667ae2496282a4f54a4\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Like Willie Jackson\u2014ha, ha! We do oppose this bill, not for that reason, but for the reasons I\u2019ve mentioned around the options to the boards, which will throw up more problems than they will be solving. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022df4ca6091dff4a0993a9b4caa2078784\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df4ca6091dff4a0993a9b4caa2078784\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker, can I just remind members around the House that it is actually hard to hear the speeches in the debate, not just for me as Speaker but for those who are actually watching either online or right here. Can we please keep the heckling to a minimum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00229aa872c224e34f33b6821a1e39eee82a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aa872c224e34f33b6821a1e39eee82a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister for Broadcasting and Media):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Tuatahi e mihi ana ki a koutou, ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga i tae mai nei, i whakarangatira i te kaupapa i t\u0113nei w\u0101, t\u0113nei te tino mihi ki a koutou. Kei te p\u012Brangi au ki te mihi ki a koutou katoa m\u014D \u0101 koutou mahi nui m\u014D \u014D t\u0101tou iwi. E mihi ana, e mihi ana ki a koutou, n\u014D reira t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, haramai, haramai, nau mai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker. Firstly I\u2019d like to acknowledge you, the w\u0101nanga that have arrived here to honour the topic at this time, this is a real greeting to you. I want to thank you all for your great work for our people. My thanks, I thank you, so greetings, welcome, welcome, welcome.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s lovely to see all the w\u0101nanga people here today. I\u2019m very happy to tautoko my mates here today. As you heard, they\u2019re all academics. My background is from the freezing works, but I\u2019ve been a major\u2014unlike Kelvin Davis and Minister Jan Tinetti, that\u2019s been my background. But I\u2019ve been listening to some of the k\u014Drero today, particularly the member over there Penny Simmonds, who seems to know the w\u0101nanga so well. So I was listening to Penny Simmonds and I thought, well, I know the w\u0101nangas pretty well too, so I might talk about my relationship with the w\u0101nanga, in fact, all three w\u0101nanga, just because, Penny, you seem to know so much and I reckon I\u2019ve got a closer relationship. So I\u2019m going to go down that track, first of all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut, first of all, I want to salute the leadership of these w\u0101nanga\u2014three magnificent leaders who started these w\u0101nanga, starting, of course, with Whata Winiata, who\u2019s just one of the most brilliant academics, I think, who we\u2019ve ever seen, and one of our foremost M\u0101ori leaders. I notice his son here in the audience today. I just want to read this quote for you, for everyone, from Ani Mikaere: \u201CBy 1975, an alliance of three iwi (also known as the ART confederation)\u201D\u2014and we know there is Ng\u0101ti Toa Rangatira, Te \u0100tiawa, and Ng\u0101ti Raukawa ki te Tonga\u2014\u201Crealised that they were fast approaching the point of irreversible cultural collapse. They launched Whakatupuranga Rua Mano: Generation 2000, a counter-assimilatory strategy which focused on revitalisation of M\u0101ori language, reconnection with cultural institutions and restoration of traditional values to the heart of M\u0101ori thinking and practice. Central to this activity has been the establishment of Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa, a tertiary education institution that seeks to transform M\u0101ori futures and, in so doing, to transform the colonial state of New Zealand.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIsn\u2019t that magnificent\u2014isn\u2019t that magnificent? And I think that sums up Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa so well, and their leader, Whata Winiata\u2014the first w\u0101nanga that was established. So I mihi to that wh\u0101nau, and I will say that my wife is related to that Winiata wh\u0101nau. Rongo Wetere, too, is my mother\u2019s second cousin, believe it or not. No, it\u2019s true. Their parents are brother and sister. So I think I might have a closer relationship than you, Penny Simmonds. My Uncle Rongo came to Ng\u0101 Whare Waatea Marae in the 1980s and talked to my mother about setting up something for all the people. She said, \u201CYes, cuz\u2014yes, cuz. Well, put a prefab over there.\u201D And, of course, we all know what happened with the w\u0101nanga. He had so many dreams and so many aspirations, and he was just one of the foremost leaders. So I want to mihi to him for his mahi. Also the CEO of Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa, Mereana Selby, who is here today, and also Nepia Winiata, who is here today from Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, te Awanui\u0101rangi, where we have our Professor Sid Mead, one of the foremost leaders, in terms of M\u0101ori, over the years. What a magnificent leader. And even today, I think the koroua is 95, or he might be a bit older, might be 97, but leading the way in terms of his people in Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2014magnificent. That\u2019s the type of leadership that we\u2019ve had in Te Ao M\u0101ori. And I want to mihi to the CEO, Wiremu Doherty, and acknowledge my wife who is on the board of Awanui\u0101rangi, Tania Rangiheuea, who I think hopefully is in the audience today. I think she got a bit h\u014Dh\u0101 with me because I got the times wrong. But I want to acknowledge her and the mahi they do\u2014just fantastic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI remind the Opposition, Penny Simmonds in particular, that this place is all about compromise. The whole Treaty settlement process that you put in place is about compromise. Our people walk away with crumbs, but they settle, because crumbs is better than nothing. You can build goldmines from crumbs. That\u2019s what Tainui have done. That\u2019s what Ngai Tahu have done. So you are doing the wrong thing today by not supporting a kaupapa that realises so many of our dreams as M\u0101ori. Yes, as the Minister has said, in an absolute ideal world you would have had your ideal bill that\u2019s totally concentrating on the w\u0101nanga\u2014we get that. But that\u2019s not what Parliament is about. The National Party know that better than anyone. And our people have learnt the art of compromise. It irritates us. It bugs us. We don\u2019t like incremental change. We want it all straight away. But people like Professor Sid Mead and Whata Winiata and my Uncle Rongo Wetere knew to get something in place and they\u2019d build something for the people. And they did that\u2014and they did that\u2014and we are all beneficiaries of it. The whole nation are beneficiaries in terms of the mahi of the w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EAt W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa, more P\u0101keh\u0101 learn M\u0101ori than M\u0101ori. That\u2019s an absolute fact. That\u2019s how giving we are to the nation. What do we get? We get nonsense. We get nonsense from the ACT Party. We get nonsense from the National Party. And we get nonsense from Penny Simmonds. I acknowledge your mahi\u2014I do acknowledge your mahi in the past, although I\u2019m not a person to get personal, as members know. No, I\u2019m not a person who gets personal. I want to acknowledge your mahi in the past\u2014no doubt about it\u2014but, today, you\u2019re disappointing Te Ao M\u0101ori and, in fact, yourself. So I just want to say that, because this bill should be supported wholly by the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge my mate, the Minister over here, who goes through so much. He\u2019s done so much work in pulling the whole kaupapa together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EMihi nui ki a koe, taku hoa. Koutou katoa i tae mai nei ki te tautoko i te kaupapa ataahua i t\u0113nei w\u0101, t\u0113nei te h\u014Dnore ki te mihi ki a t\u0101tou katoa, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u00A0\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E[Many thanks to you, my friend. All of you who have arrived here to support this beautiful initiative at this time, it is my honour to acknowledge all of us. Greetings and thanks to all of us.]\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e192a49fa87e4fa2975343a7b34af3ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e192a49fa87e4fa2975343a7b34af3ad\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s hard to follow a comedy act that hasn\u2019t understood the part of his whole speech\u2014of his whole speech, forgets about all of the other parts that is what we have an issue with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EI rise on behalf of ACT to speak to the Education and Training Amendment Bill and I speak as a teacher of 22 years\u2019 experience, and earlier on it was so important\u2014experience was so important. I have taught in all areas of socio-economic communities and I may be beginning to realise that experience only counts if you agree with the Labour Party. This bill and its many amendments have been well traversed over the last few months, even with the shortened consultations stage, and they\u2019ve been explained really well again today. The many submitters have made it clear how they feel about the particular changes that affect them, and as has become quite typical with the Government, the feedback will be ignored and the bill will be pushed through with all in its entirety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe bill has some good bits, no doubt about that, which if they were taken by themselves ACT would support. We live in a democracy and the people really did speak with their disapproval of some of the other bits, and they just can\u2019t be ignored. They just can\u2019t be ignored. The feedback from teachers and principals that I\u2019ve received is that they don\u2019t want many of these changes; some they do, many they don\u2019t, especially the changes to school board appointments. We must trust our boards, our principals, and our teachers. They actually know more than politicians about a lot of things, and funnily enough, quite a bit more about education. It\u2019s a harsh reality for quite a few to take and it was great to hear our Minister this morning talk about how she trusts principals and teachers. It seems she trusts them except when it comes to dealing with schools and education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThere are so many issues in education in New Zealand at the moment, with tumbling literacy and numeracy rates, we\u2019ve got appalling truancy, we\u2019ve got unprecedented violence in our schools, and here we are introducing a bill that changes the make up for school board appointments, not because there\u2019s a problem, but because of this Government\u2019s ideological agenda\u2014it\u2019s just nuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s inability this morning to answer basic questions relating to this provision shows just what a nonsense this is. The changes to the w\u0101nanga in the rushed and unsatisfactory way it\u2019s been dealt with have been explained well by my National colleagues, so I won\u2019t go into that. To include this important area with the rest of the tinkering that\u2019s going on in this bill is really quite devious, and I\u2019m sure our guests in the gallery can actually see through it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe issues that ACT had have largely been satisfied and we are happy to support those parts of the bill. We don\u2019t entirely agree with everything, but we\u2019re happy to support. Of all the political parties here, ACT have taken the education of young M\u0101ori the most seriously. Partnership schools have worked for the diversity of learning and the most vulnerable. Their success was undeniably proven, and the kids that this Government purports to care for, they attended school and they succeeded, but in an act of political spite, Labour got rid of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll never understand the constant desire for division, but I wish the w\u0101nanga well in their continued development and education of young people. There are things we like in this bill; there are things that we think are OK, but because of what I mentioned earlier, ACT cannot support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223884011627704348894788c46f8c7b6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223884011627704348894788c46f8c7b6b\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thought the comedy had stopped when Willie Jackson had left the room, but then it kept going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI rise on behalf of the Greens for this third reading, and I reflect on some of the comments from around the House. You know, often in these education debates, we talk about lifting literacy standards and the importance of literacy, particularly from that corner of the House. But here\u2019s the thing: they have failed to read the room today. Unlike the Hon Willie Jackson, I don\u2019t know if I\u2019ve got any relatives up in the public gallery; if you are there, let me know! But what I would also say is that earlier comments focusing on sandwiches\u2014I could see that the Hon Willie Jackson was quite hungry and had to dip out, probably down to Copperfield\u2019s to get his lunch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI tua atu i t\u0113r\u0101, e ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga e toru, t\u0113nei ka mihi atu ki a koutou katoa. E mihi ana ki \u014D koutou nei m\u0101ia, e mihi ana ki \u014D koutou nei ngao i whakapau werawera kia tae atu ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 w\u0101hi. Me mihi atu ki te tauira n\u0101 koutou an\u014D i taki, n\u0101 koutou an\u014D i whakarite m\u0101 t\u0101tou, te ao M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EEhara i te mea ko t\u0113nei mea te w\u0101nanga he w\u0101hi noa; he haerenga. I kite m\u0101tou, te ao M\u0101ori, otir\u0101 te t\u016Bmanako t\u0113nei Whare i ng\u0101 hua i puta i \u0101 koutou nei mahi. Kei te whakaaro ake ki t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 rautaki, ko te Whakatupuranga Rua Mano. Anei an\u014D t\u0113tahi n\u014D te Manawat\u016B i kite i ng\u0101 hua i tae atu ki t\u014D m\u0101tou nei pito o te takiw\u0101. N\u0101 ko te t\u016Bmanako nui, ka whai w\u0101hi an\u014D kia whakarite he ara an\u014D m\u014D te Whakatupuranga Toru Mano, he oranga t\u0113r\u0101 m\u014D t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EKo t\u0101ku nei ki roto i t\u0113nei ture, me p\u0113nei an\u014D ng\u0101 waeture, me p\u0113nei an\u014D ng\u0101 ture katoa. T\u0113 taea e te ture te mea atu, \u201Canei an\u014D t\u014D rangatiratanga, anei an\u014D t\u014D mana\u201D. Ka taea k\u0113tia e \u0113n\u0101 ture te aro, te kite, te rongo, te tiro, an\u0101 an\u014D t\u014D rangatiratanga. Me p\u0113r\u0101, an\u0101, ng\u0101 ture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EKo t\u0113r\u0101 te, ki t\u014Dku nei whakaaro, te ia o t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 ture. N\u014D reira t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki e mihi atu ki a koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[Apart from that, to the three w\u0101nanga, I acknowledge all of you. I acknowledge your bravery, I acknowledge your energy and the sweat that was expended to get to this point. It is appropriate to acknowledge the example that you have set, that you have prepared for us, for M\u0101ori society.\u00A0\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis thing, the w\u0101nanga, is not merely a place; it is a journey. We saw, M\u0101ori society, indeed I\u2019d hope that this House saw the fruits that were produced by your labour. I think about that one of the strategies, Generation 2000. Here is another from Manawat\u016B who saw the benefits that came to our part of the area. So the great hope is that there is an opportunity to prepare another pathway for Generation 3000 that would be of benefit to all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EFor me in this legislation, regulations should be like this, all legislation should be like this. Legislation cannot say to you, \u201Chere is your autonomy, here is your authority\u201D. Instead that legislation can pay attention, see, hear, look, there is your autonomy. Legislation, there, should be like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThat is the, in my opinion, the trend of this piece of legislation. So this one of the Greens greets all of you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses governance of the w\u0101nanga, and that\u2019s been traversed quite a bit as well over the last two hours or so as well, and the Green Party support that. It is about the collaboration between the Crown, the Ministry of Education, and the w\u0101nanga. And here, I want to acknowledge in English, Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa, Te W\u0101nanga o Awanui\u0101rangi, and Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa\u2014that emphasises M\u0101ori decision-making. The bill allows these institutions to choose between becoming Crown entities or non-Crown entities accountable to iwi, hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori organisations, aiming to ensure fairness and cultural autonomy. And I want to acknowledge that in the House about how important that is and also the strategy that is being put into place to ensure that that moves forward\u2014not just for their own communities, but for all of Te Ao M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe term w\u0101nanga itself: it\u2019s not just a destination or a location\u2014but in this case it can be\u2014but it\u2019s also a journey, because knowledge always evolves. M\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori evolves; knowledge evolves as well, and so it\u2019s so important that actually that stuff is built in to help to enable the aspirations of M\u0101ori to enable the aspirations of w\u0101nanga as well. And I do want to reflect on some of the k\u014Drero around the protection of the word \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D. It\u2019s so important that that word is protected. But as we have said before\u2014as went back and forth in this debate as well\u2014we could continue to have that k\u014Drero, because as I was saying, it\u2019s not just the location; it\u2019s the journey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EKnowledge evolves and changes, and that that requires time, it requires space, and to actually have those conversations; those very important conversations, because we don\u2019t know how long those conversations could be. Could be just over a cup of tea\u2014probably not, but it could also be over a number of weekends or years, and so on and so forth. But it is so important that we give space to enable those conversations to be had. T\u0113nei te mihi atu ki a koutou, kia whai w\u0101hi an\u014D ki t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga. [I acknowledge you for the engagement with that one of these things.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe important thing here, I think we need to recognise as the House, is that this is what the w\u0101nanga wanted; this is what the w\u0101nanga want\u2014they get it. You know, this place is all about compromises and we get what we can to a particular point. We set, we rest, we w\u0101nanga again and then we move again, and that\u2019s what the point of this bill is. We had those conversations with the w\u0101nanga. And, yes, I do agree with the sentiment of the member Penny Simmonds around the frustrations of being called \u201Ccategory A\u201D or \u201Ccategory B\u201D or whatever. But here\u2019s the thing, right: the journey is up, it\u2019s down, and then we rest and we reset; we achieve something, we get somewhere\u2014and we\u2019re doing that with this bill today, and then we continue to have that conversation as we move forward, because that\u2019s what folks want. It\u2019s about moving forward: that\u2019s why Te Ao M\u0101ori has always been about movement. We\u2019re moving from one place to the other in terms of our thinking, in terms of our knowledge, and it\u2019s just so, so important that we respect that and we honour that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThere was lots of conversation about a lot of the other parts of this bill as well, and I do want to acknowledge our irawhiti wh\u0101nau, our trans wh\u0101nau, and to say that the Green Party see you. The Green Party is supporting this legislation to enable that visibility to happen, to enable that that space\u2014or that potential space\u2014to be created. But I also acknowledge the words of the Minister, who said, \u201CYou know what, this stuff isn\u2019t compulsory. It\u2019s about empowering, it\u2019s about enabling\u2014it\u2019s about giving people the nudge and saying \u2018Hey, you know what, being inclusive and being diverse is a good thing. Have you thought about it; what this could mean for rainbow youth in particular, for rainbow communities? Make sure that you have that engagement.\u2019 \u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI also want to reflect on some of the connections that I have with school communities. When schools operate well, they\u2019re connected with their communities. They know their communities, there are embedded parts of their communities, and if we give them this prompt, if we give them these ideas, then they can go, \u201CWell, you know what? This could be great for our schools. This could be great for our tamariki, particularly for those tamariki who are less visible than others\u201D, and so that\u2019s so important. N\u014D reira e mihi atu ki t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga. [So I acknowledge that phenomenon.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThere are a whole lot of other important amendments as well, but I would also like to underline and point out that this is Education Amendment Bill (No 3)\u2014it\u2019s like the trilogy that just doesn\u2019t end, and there will be other amendments coming forward as well. I\u2019ve only been here for about three years, but I think I\u2019ve spoken on a couple of the other amendments as well. So it\u2019s not like \u201CYou know what, this is it and it\u2019s over\u201D, there is time for us to actually reset, to acknowledge the accomplishments of our w\u0101nanga in particular, and the wide support for our M\u0101ori communities as well, and I note Te R\u016Bnanga nui o ng\u0101 Kura Kaupapa M\u0101ori came along to tautoko and to share their whakaaro. Te Kaunihera M\u0101ori came along to show their support for the kaupapa as well, and that\u2019s an important part of that as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e te Whare, e te P\u012Bka, anei m\u0101tou ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki e tautoko ana i a koutou, ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga e toru. Te t\u016Bmanako noa kia huaki an\u014D te w\u0101nanga, kia w\u0101nanga me p\u0113hea te tika o t\u0113nei kupu, te w\u0101nanga, kia w\u0101nanga ai te kupu, kia w\u0101nanga an\u014D ai te whakaaro, kia w\u0101nanga t\u014D t\u0101tou nei ao M\u0101ori. Lindsay, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[The M\u0101ori Council came along as well to show their support for the initiative as well, and that\u2019s an important part of that as well. So to the House, Mr Speaker, we the Greens support you, the three w\u0101nanga. The only hope is that the discussion is opened again, to discuss what is the truth of this word, w\u0101nanga, to discuss the word, to discuss the concept, that our M\u0101ori society discusses it. Lindsay, greetings, indeed greetings to all of you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00224b289068236043cfbc69f73ee4b4376c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b289068236043cfbc69f73ee4b4376c\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a real privilege to make a short contribution today on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3). I am a member of the Education and Workforce Committee, and we had the pleasure of hearing submissions from w\u0101nanga. I also want to thank my colleagues and the officials for their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI asked to speak on this bill because I want to acknowledge the work of the w\u0101nanga for Pasefika. I wanted to acknowledge and mention, in particular, and thank Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa in M\u0101ngere in South Auckland, who has a huge registration of Pasefika students. Their work in this kaupapa has been really integral for our local community, and I want to thank kaum\u0101tua; I want to thank iwi, M\u0101ori, and hap\u016B for their kaupapa and for enabling, in M\u0101ngere\u2014in South Auckland\u2014the huge contribution to the Pasefika learners in our community to be able to progress forward in their lives because they have attended the local w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn my short contribution, I really just wanted to highlight two specific points. The first one is establish and support the governance framework for w\u0101nanga. This is a huge recognition and a significant milestone to enable w\u0101nanga to have that k\u014Drero, to be able to dictate their terms, to be able to maintain and acknowledge mana and rangatiratanga of the w\u0101nanga and the uniqueness of the w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the contribution from our Ministers, Tinetti, Davis, and Jackson\u2014who always has a colourful contribution to remind us where we have come from to where we are going. It is important that the bill is an enabler to allow iwi and w\u0101nanga to be able to have that k\u014Drero, to be comfortable and specifically in their time. Because rather than be dictated to, they need to tell us what is comfortable. I thank w\u0101nanga for the enormous contribution for Pasefika wh\u0101nau and aiga that they have been able to make in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe second point is the changes to school board of trustees and eligibility. I\u2019ve served two decades on boards of trustees and school committees. It is really important for our students\u2014our rangatahi\u2014and their wh\u0101nau to feel safe and to understand that the governance of that school community has the safety, has the education aspirations for the young people of that school community. On that note, I commend this bill to the House. Fa\u2018afetai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225cae6e5e937c4727ac8f8fac0d6ffb48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cae6e5e937c4727ac8f8fac0d6ffb48\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a five-minute split call. The Hon David Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00228f0281f6072944a5b288aa6927a3f0df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f0281f6072944a5b288aa6927a3f0df\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The National Party opposes this bill, not for the clauses around the w\u0101nanga but for other clauses in the bill. Just as someone from Hamilton that grew up in Te Awamutu, I just want to acknowledge the w\u0101nanga and the great work that you do in our community and the many lives that you have changed for the better, so thank you for your work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EBut our problem in New Zealand is our education system. At a very younger age, it is just failing our people, and it\u2019s failing in a number of ways. We need to see real change at that primary school, that early childhood education, and at that secondary school level so that people actually have the skills to engage in the w\u0101nanga or other forms of education. That\u2019s why we oppose school board of trustees elections processes which are mandated by Government rather than being left to communities and schools to dictate who has got the interest and the desire to be on those trustees. That is the primary concern we have in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAs someone that went through a Catholic boy\u2019s education, you know, I think, when you look at our education system and you compare it with Australia, for example, there is a big difference in that we do not have a very strong independent schooling network. We do not have a very strong integrated schooling network. They are very small percentages of our total schooling network. I think that competition, but also the values and the approach taken, in those schools has shown to be very effective. If you look in Hamilton, for example, Church College was one of the pre-eminent schools in the city and no longer is there. And you can go through a number of other Ma\u014Dri education facilities that, you know, had a religious basis but actually had quite a strong effect on education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAnd no, I\u2019m not an overly religious person\u2014don\u2019t get me wrong\u2014but what I\u2019m saying is that we need more balance in the education system. If you look at Australia, for example, a third of their education system is integrated or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238b7c974bf4e40758a2d5e38e50f7eec\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, and gets truckloads of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a104b3274c04f7585fb019bc8e86197\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, one-third of their system is actually integrated or private schools or schools that actually have a religious bent to them, you could say, but it\u2019s actually the values they teach. And I think that that\u2019s really important. If we really wanted to do something about getting our primary school education better, we should be focusing on those kind of changes, which reflect what is working in other countries, rather than these changes in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002288d6c1a17776401fa0984f8aa31bf5a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288d6c1a17776401fa0984f8aa31bf5a2\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E That prompt then gave me a hua of a fright! Kia ora t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei r\u0101. [Hello to all of us here this day.] First of all, I apologise for what you\u2019ve had to hear in this House over the last hour. You\u2019re never going to get that back in your life ever again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKei te aroha atu ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o te Whare nei; \u0101hua p\u014Dtatutatu w\u0113tahi. \u0100hua p\u014Dtatutatu. Ka k\u014Drero mai, \u201Cit\u2019s insulting to call you W\u0101nanga A, W\u0101nanga B, W\u0101nanga C,\u201D and in the second breath call you a sandwich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei r\u0101, i t\u0113nei pire kei mua i a t\u0101tou, kei mua i a t\u0101tou. Me te mea hoki kia kauaka awahau e \u0101ta k\u0101rawarawa i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero kei roto i te pire. Kua tutuki. Kua tutuki. Kia kauaka t\u0101tou e hoki whakamuri. Ko te whakamua t\u0101tou e haere ake nei. In\u0101 ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a Awanui\u0101rangi, \u201Cmau tonu ki t\u0101u ake \u014Dh\u0101k\u012B\u201D. Ki t\u0101 te k\u014Drero a Raukawa, \u201Ce kore au e ngaro\u201D. Ki t\u0101 te k\u014Drero a Aotearoa, \u201Cka mua, ka muri\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EMe p\u0113r\u0101 pea t\u0101 t\u0101tou whakaaro i t\u0113nei r\u0101. H\u0101unga ng\u0101 huihuinga kua oti, hika! Kua mutu noa atu ng\u0101 carpark meetings. Kei te ahu whakamua t\u0101tou. Ahakoa w\u0113tahi mea kua mahue k\u0113 ake i waho i te pire nei, kei te pai. Kua pai ake in\u0101ia tonu nei ki t\u0101 te pire ki mua noa atu. \u0100e, \u0101hua iti noa, incremental steps. Oh, well, koin\u0101 te \u0101huatanga o t\u0113nei Whare. Engari kei te ahu whakamua t\u0101tou. N\u014D reira e ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga, haramai ki t\u014D koutou Whare, haramai ki te whakarongo ki t\u0113nei pire e \u0101hua whakatikatika i ng\u0101 mahi h\u0113 ka roa e h\u0113 nei i t\u0113nei Whare, i a t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[My condolences for the comments of this House; some are a bit distracted. A bit distracted. They say, \u201Cit\u2019s insulting to call you W\u0101nanga A, W\u0101nanga B, W\u0101nanga C,\u201D and in the second breath call you a sandwich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EGreetings to us today, and this bill that is before us, that is before us. And also let me not cut the statements in the bill into shreds. It is complete. It is complete. Let us not go backwards. We are about progress now. There are the statements of Awanui\u0101rangi, \u201Chold onto your own legacy\u201D. According to the statement of Raukawa, \u201CI will never be lost\u201D. According to the statement of Aotearoa, \u201Cwalking backwards into the future\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EPerhaps that is how we should think today. Aside from the meetings that have already been completed, geez! The carpark meetings finished a while ago. We are moving forward. Even though some things have been left out of this bill, it\u2019s OK. It is better in this moment than the bill from earlier. Yes, only a little, incremental steps. Oh well, that is the nature of this House. But we are moving forward. So to the w\u0101nanga, welcome to your House, welcome to listen to this bill that kind of corrects the misguided work that has long been misguided in this House, by us.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge the w\u0101nanga here today, and I think I\u2019m more closely related to the w\u0101nanga than Willie Jackson. The big difference is that I have a degree out of those w\u0101nanga; he doesn\u2019t. Oh, it\u2019s not nice\u2014it\u2019s not nice, but, you know, he told us how he was related to all the clever ones. I was wondering what happened to him. He just about had his 21st at secondary school, so maybe his wife should be taking him to Te Whare W\u0101nanga to go and get a degree. But, look, I\u2019ve been a teacher, I\u2019ve been a student, I\u2019ve been a graduate, and I\u2019ve been in a lecturer of all three w\u0101nanga. Te Ara Poutama, Te Ara Reo M\u0101ori\u2014I\u2019ve been a teacher in that particular space. I was a graduate of Raukawa with a Master\u2019s in m\u0101taurangi M\u0101ori. I\u2019m currently a graduate of Awanuiarangi, but I\u2019ve still got to finish my PhD. I see the CEO up there; I won\u2019t make eye contact with him right now. And I was also elected for Raukawa for the m\u0101taurangi M\u0101ori paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo, look, we are here to celebrate\u2014although tinkering\u2014a huge milestone here today, kura kaupapa M\u0101ori. Kia kaua t\u0101tou e wareware ki te kura kaupapa M\u0101ori, [M\u0101ori immersion schools. Let us not forget the M\u0101ori immersion schools,] who have been pushed aside and made special character, and I won\u2019t accept this House taking the mana away from the people who set up kura kaupapa M\u0101ori, who set up k\u014Dhanga reo. That was business as usual and so you should be doing that. But I am sick and tired of them saying, \u201CIt was under us that k\u014Dhanga reo was able to fly. It was under us that kura kaupapa was able to fly.\u201D Whakamutua atu! N\u0101 t\u0101tou an\u014D t\u0101tou \u0113r\u0101 kaupapa. Ka whakaaro au m\u014D ng\u0101 pakeke kua riro atu ki te p\u014D. Ng\u0101 kaiako i roto i te k\u014Dhanga reo, ng\u0101 kaiako i roto i te kura kaupapa, Te Heik\u014Dk\u014D m\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[Cut it out! Those initiatives were our own. I think about the elders who have passed on into the night. The teachers in the M\u0101ori immersion early childhood centres, the teachers in the M\u0101ori immersion schools, Te Heik\u014Dk\u014D and them.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what\u2019s insulting\u2014that we continue to allow this House to claim the merit of the hard work our people have continuously done in our communities. And that\u2019s not isolated to Te Whare W\u0101nanga. So kei te mihi atu r\u0101 ki a koutou, kei te mihi atu r\u0101 ki a t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei r\u0101, ka roa nei e whawhai m\u014D te oranga o t\u014D t\u0101tou iwi M\u0101ori. You know what would be even better? Te Matakahuki, kei te whakarongo mai koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[So I acknowledge you, I acknowledge all of us today, who have long been fighting for the benefit of our M\u0101ori people. You know what would be even better? Te Matakahuki, you are listening.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EDo you know what would be even better? That we set up a known independent M\u0101ori education authority that takes 25 percent of the total funding of education, puts it in there so we can be in charge of our own oranga. So you fellas know who to vote for come October\u2014kia ora t\u0101tou. But just to say, look, this is our opportunity to celebrate the small gains. This is our opportunity to celebrate us. This is our opportunity to continue the mahi\u2014the awesome mahi\u2014we do in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira kei te mihi atu r\u0101 ki a koutou. [So I acknowledge you.] I\u2019m waiting for Whakat\u014Dhea to arrive this afternoon. We\u2019ve got some more firecrackers. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002220883f5173ae4449ab8e523a301c1668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220883f5173ae4449ab8e523a301c1668\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe Mr Speaker. Tuatahi me mihi ki koutou ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga e toru, e mihi ana haere mai nau mai ki a koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E[Greetings, Mr Speaker. Firstly acknowledgments to you the three schools of learning, welcome, welcome, thank you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt is an honour and a privilege to speak today. I\u2019m the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and I want to acknowledge those members of this House who are also members of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, Rawiri Waititi and Teanau Tuiono, for their impassioned speeches on this important bill. That is a committee which is deeply concerned with finding a way forward for M\u0101ori, and that is also what this bill does. This bill is about a step forward that we should all be able to agree to in this House. It is something that the Labour Government with Minister Tinetti and Minister Kelvin Davis have advanced and I\u2019m proud to stand with them and speak to it today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis bill is about those aspirations that Mr Waititi has spoken about, those community aspirations which all of you are the representation of. And it\u2019s not just people who are alive today. It\u2019s our t\u016Bpuna, who we all stand on the shoulders of, who have dreamed about this day and about advancing M\u0101ori education in this way. It makes me think of the whakatauk\u012B of Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa\u2014he takapou m\u0101tauranga he wh\u0101nau huarewa: wh\u0101nau transformation through education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s that big vision for me that speaks to my personal history in education. My father grew up in the shores of the \u014Chiwa Harbour. He didn\u2019t speak a lick of English until he was nine years old and he learnt from the Bible. He was nine when he went to school down the road, and he was unable to speak M\u0101ori at that school, but he went to Ardmore Teachers\u2019 College because a few local farmers believed in him. He went as well because the Norman Kirk Government put buses on the roads that allowed him to go to high school and then to achieve tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHe became one of the first M\u0101ori lecturers in education, and he lectured in early childhood education. His philosophy has always been the transformative power of education for our people and for me personally. I\u2019ve always had someone who was an advocate for education in my life, and I have no doubt that that\u2019s why I\u2019m here today, to be able to be the best that I can be. So thank you to all of you who are M\u0101ori educators, who stand on the shoulders of those giants who\u2019ve done so much for M\u0101ori kids like me to be here and to be in any position in public life, in business, in science that they can be. Thank you for that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the k\u014Drero today about the term \u201Cw\u0101nanga\u201D. Te Whare W\u0101nanga is something which is sacred. It is not just a word. It is an acknowledgment of the history of education that has been handed down by our t\u016Bpuna. My tupuna Waioeka, she was one of the last graduates of Te Whare W\u0101nanga in Te Tair\u0101whiti. Judith Binney captured her k\u014Drero in it\u2014stories of her as a young woman and as a teenager attending Te Whare W\u0101nanga and learning the sacred rituals of Te Whare W\u0101nanga. That is a term that is right for the Government to give special consideration to, to lift up in our legislation, and to achieve what is guaranteed to M\u0101ori in the third article of the Treaty, which Minister Davis talked about; that guarantee of our taonga and that guarantee of equality in the eyes of the law for those things which are special to us as M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that this is a step forward, it is progressive, it is incremental, and everyone in this House has spoken about our collective support for doing more for Te Whare W\u0101nanga. I want to say to you that this bill progresses that. It is not just the beginning, it stands on so much work which has gone on by you, by people in this House, and by those who have come before it, and I\u2019m proud to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc3489be279d4eb28a186a37d869ca17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc3489be279d4eb28a186a37d869ca17\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113nei te mihi ki a koutou i t\u0113nei w\u0101 e huihuia mai nei ki te k\u014Drero i te pire Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E[I acknowledge you at this time who have assembled here to speak about this bill, the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3).]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI stand as the last member of the National Party, and as has been heard in the House, the contributions, I reflect that this Chamber is one of reflection and one of memory and memorial. It\u2019s also a Chamber where there is an exchange of debate, and that debate I always approach in a respectful manner. The issue may be one that members in this House and members of the public agree or disagree about, but the importance of a democracy, particularly in this Chamber of reflection, it ought to be one of respect, and that the conduct is always respectful and not disagreeable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAs is known, the National Party is opposing elements of this bill. For the benefit of New Zealanders listening in, and as I say, for a respectful debate to occur, it\u2019s well known that the numbers in this House today will ensure that this bill does pass into law. It is important that with the exchange of views in debate in a democracy that that is aired and that is heard. This bill has had significant proportion of it in this debate and appropriately so because of those members of the public who are gathered in the gallery, and I acknowledge every single one of you who are here today, but also many others who are from afar and may be listening in to this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EMy acknowledgment is to those from Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa, from Te Whare W\u0101nanga o Awanui\u0101rangi, and from Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa. I\u2019ve listened to the stories and the contributions from members from the various political parties, and this is a place where politics does come in to the debate, but I share and express my support to the kaupapa\u2014and the support of the National Party to the kaupapa of what our w\u0101nanga and whare w\u0101nanga are about. I\u2019ve listened to Minister Jackson share his stories, I\u2019ve listened to Minister Davis, also, share the stories of the relationships and the whakapapa that we have to those persons associated with each of the w\u0101nanga, whare w\u0101nanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve also listened to the fact that this Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3) is not solely focused on the issue of the w\u0101nanga, and my colleague Penny Simmons has appropriately, and I acknowledge and support, that in terms of respectful exchange and engagement, it is the National Party\u2019s view that the w\u0101nanga and the whare w\u0101nanga are appropriately, and ought to have been given the due recognition of the elements of this bill within a separate piece of legislation. But that does not say that the National Party does not support these aspects of the w\u0101nanga within the bill, other than the fact that due process has been compromised. We\u2019ve heard from members in the debate today that, yes, there is always compromise, but how much longer do we bend to the will and actually continue to be compromised? That is the point of the debate from the National Party today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe compromise is one that\u2019s such due process\u2014this is a debate that is under urgency, and the point is that if this was given due process and respect it would not be under urgency. It would have been allocated priority in terms of the scheduling at an earlier time. It\u2019s been heard that there has been korero and engagement for a long period of time. My question to the Minister: why was that compromised? In this legislative process and my responsibility as a lawmaker, after having served as a law facilitator and lawyer for three decades, is that I have a responsibility in this House as a lawmaker to ensure that due process is invoked and followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe concern that\u2019s been identified is that only 24 working days has been given to this bill and the elements associated not only with whare w\u0101nanga, which is an important component of this legislation, but also the issue that\u2019s been heard in the committee of the whole process, and exchange of questions and answers around the school board election process, around child protection\u2014which is the background that I come from in my service back home in Whanganui, in my community around child welfare protection and families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ETertiary: the element under this Bill is about establishing the new framework for w\u0101nanga, and a significant component, appropriately so for this debate, and recognising those who have gathered here in this gallery, is around the w\u0101naga and the due regard, respect, and process that has been compromised, and then other miscellaneous elements within the Bill. At the second reading, when I spoke for the first time on this bill, I signalled that I was not a member of the select committee, my colleagues Penny Simmons and Erica Stanford were the representatives for the National Party, but when I came into this House to speak at the second reading with limited knowledge other than reading the select committee report and then perusing the bill, as is my responsibility, and every member in this House who speaks to the bill as a lawmaker, to scrutinise that. So in the scrutiny of that bill, drawing on the background of service that I\u2019ve given, I talked about child protection, child welfare, and safety, and that this bill, importantly, changes the criteria for school boards so anyone convicted of an offence, as is outlined in Schedule 2, and Schedule 2 details the seriousness of convictions associated with ensuring that the element of child welfare and protection is addressed by the school board with the appointment of members to that board. Schedule 2 in terms of child protection to ensure that any person who has a conviction as is outlined in Schedule 2 is automatically ineligible unless exempted by the Secretary for Education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo the backgrounds that I have come from in advocating and representing the most disparate and vulnerable amongst our community of children and families is that Schedule\u00A02 identifies specified offences\u2014anybody who has a conviction of a sexual violation nature, of sexual exploitation, of indecency, not only towards a child but also men or women, that it is important that matters where a person has convictions associated with injuring others or assaults or ill treatment or neglect of a child, that there is a responsibility of the school boards in ensuring that that element of child welfare and protection is incumbent, and that our children can, and our families expect that our children can go to school and be safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo, in closing, just touching on when I spoke in this House at the second reading, referring to Minister Davis and Minister Jackson about relationships, I shared that the association that I have as the granddaughter of Hori Hipango, that association was with matua\u2014Professor Whatarangi Winiata in the days when he was a student at Victoria University. It was shared with me not long after I came into this public service role as a member of this place, that when he met me and heard my name, made the association and correlation with my koro. It was humbling to hear that Professor Whatarangi Winiata, matua, had said as a student here at Victoria University in his younger days, he would travel through to Putiki, Whanganui to w\u0101nanga with my koro to learn the reo. So the association that we have\u2014that I have personally with Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa is through that whakapapa\u2014is through the generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo, in closing, I stand to say that the intent is to support the kaupapa and always will be. I acknowledge Rawiri Waititi, who has said in this House today that parties lay claim\u2014actually, the National Party is acknowledging the support that has been lent to the kaupapa of K\u014Dhanga Reo, kura kaupapa and the whare w\u0101nanga. And, on that note, I close my speech to say that the intent is good to support, but due process and due regard and respect has been compromised, and I cannot support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf305e31dca3424aac402f0dd163463e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf305e31dca3424aac402f0dd163463e\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. It is a very humbling experience to be standing here as the last speaker on the third reading of this bill. We have a really complex education system. It\u2019s big and it\u2019s complicated, and I just want to pick up three examples of how, despite that complexity, we can pay attention and we can find ways to make changes that are important. Some of them are really small, but they are significant, and those changes will impact not just on individual lives but the entire system and our entire nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003ESo a small but significant change that hasn\u2019t been mentioned at all today is the restoration of the status of kura kaupapa M\u0101ori. It seems small but it is significant and, I think, a really fine example of the next steps that need to happen to make progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe second change that I want to reflect on is the enabling of school boards\u2014the support and guidance to encourage them to think a bit differently about how diversity and bringing that voice to a governance level can really help them, as school boards are trying really, really hard to meet the challenges in their schools, to hear the students that are unheard, to see them, to look after our most vulnerable and to ensure that they flourish. There\u2019s nothing to be afraid of when you have a piece of legislation that enables you to be courageous and helps you along on that journey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe third change is something that we have heard mostly about today, and the reason so many wonderful people are up in the gallery, and that is around our w\u0101nanga, and I acknowledge you for being here today and for all that you represent. We have heard about the 183 years, we\u2019ve heard about the recent five, and we\u2019ve heard very, very clearly that today is the next step, the conclusion, but the next step in your journey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI just want to reflect: I\u2019m not a lawyer. I come at this as an educator, as a person who\u2019s been on a board of trustees, as a mama, and I reflect on the precedent that\u2019s actually been set today. Maybe I\u2019ve been in the classroom too long and I\u2019m too much of an optimist and a Pollyanna, but I see this piece of legislation as being incredibly precedent-setting. This legislation has created space in this really sort of tightly constrained Westminster model that we operate under. The collaboration has given those involved over the last few years the courage to say, \u201CYou know what? Let\u2019s just put some placeholders in there and allow the mahi to continue.\u201D I think that\u2019s really exciting, to be able to see that space so you don\u2019t have to kind of ram in m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori or Te Ao M\u0101ori, but, actually, let\u2019s just create a bit of space for that understanding to go and to flourish. It\u2019s given confidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EMy understanding is that another precedent is that it\u2019s the first time that we will have an Order in Council that is both in te reo and in English. I applaud you and thank you for the confidence that brought us to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI was running to precinct and it was absolutely hosing down, and I had to come around a bus or two as I crossed the road\u2014slightly disorganised, didn\u2019t have a brolly\u2014but I did reflect on the people who were getting off the bus: they were organised; they had brollies. They also were making sure that everybody who got off the bus got off safely and didn\u2019t slip over\u2014they looked after each other\u2014and they also had big smiles on their faces. There was one woman I stopped and she said, \u201CYeah, it\u2019s raining, but it\u2019s not windy.\u201D And I just want to acknowledge and reflect that it\u2019s that resilience, the ability to collaborate and bring everybody with you, and that optimism, that makes me so excited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThis legislation is enabling; it is powerful and uplifting. And as a P\u0101keh\u0101 educator, I know the influence that you will have not just on your learners but my learners\u2014I teach the kids of the freezing workers, and I know that for them to have choice and to be valued is something that I\u2019m really, really grateful for. I wish you all the best for the next steps\u2014I\u2019m excited. And it is with those thoughts that I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225d7b02727b414ae4b4fb7dde764fedee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000376\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000377\u0022\u003EKaranga\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000378\u0022\u003EHaka\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224dce5f1258524e92a82831c2b89b6bcb\u0022\u003ENatural and Built Environment Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d04f9e0fec6b46228465d43e0b61775a\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223c13d7f6f84943b6a03dbee30b9b71a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c13d7f6f84943b6a03dbee30b9b71a1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Natural and Built Environment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228884a47891eb482ca5f11fd157b98f6d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just ask people leaving to be quiet please. The business is still to go on, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d13f0bbd6a0d4aad916246deb47181a9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Natural and Built Environment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis bill replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA). As economist Herman Daly famously said, \u201CThe economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse.\u201D Environmental legislation is undoubtedly needed to protect the environment, but it should also efficiently enable appropriate development. The RMA achieves neither. There\u2019s widespread agreement the RMA is not working, it takes too long, and it costs too much. It hasn\u2019t adequately protected the environment nor supported housing and infrastructure, nor promoted a low-carbon economy. Cumulative effects have degraded water and biodiversity. It\u2019s no exaggeration to say it\u2019s broken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EReports from the Productivity Commission, the Environmental Defence Society, the Property Council, the Northern Employers and Manufacturers Association, Infrastructure New Zealand, the Waitangi Tribunal, and Local Government New Zealand all attest to that. Those reports were drawn on by the expert review panel chaired by former Court of Appeal judge Tony Randerson KC, who set out the blueprint for the new resource management system. Over 100 RMA plans decrease to 16 with more permitted activities, faster plan-making, and fewer consents. Hundreds of millions of dollars will be saved every year across infrastructure and housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe consensus for change is clear. Until recently, even our political opponents in the National Party agreed. But now the election is upon us, they\u2019ve changed their tune. Having railed against the RMA for years, National announced that, if elected, they\u2019ll repeal the new Acts. Incredibly, they say they\u2019ll reinstate the RMA and recreate the problems of the old system. Never mind that the fundamentals of the new laws are widely supported. The Nats would rather throw it all away to chase a few votes from nimbies and others who self-interestedly support the status quo. The only justification National has for their flip-flop is that the new laws have many pages and will take time to implement and interpret. Of course they will. This is system change. You can\u2019t do that with a bit of fiddling around the edges. That\u2019s what National and ACT ineffectually did for years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOur opponents accuse us of ramming reform through without proper input\u2014arrant nonsense. We\u2019ve had five years of preparation, extensive consultation, and two select committee processes, the last of which attracted 3,000 submissions. Many sensible and practical submissions improved the new legislation. Local democracy is strengthened through statements of community outcomes. Improvements to planning and consenting provisions, notification, better designations and fast track have all been made. The Environment Court applies the law and Treaty of Waitangi provisions, but it\u2019s not constituted under the Treaty clause. This was clarified at select committee in response to the concerns raised by the Chief Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOur reform provides the critical framework to protect and, where necessary, restore the environment, the natural environment, and we\u2019ll do this while enabling development within environmental limits. The Natural and Built Environment Act (NBEA) will shift the focus from managing adverse effects to promoting positive outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClarifying the role and purpose of system outcomes was a focus of submissions to the Environment Committee. The system has to deal with tensions between environmental protection and development. Not all outcomes can always be achieved across all places. What should be priorities, where and when, and resolving tensions between outcomes is achieved through the hierarchy of instruments preserving the King Salmon logic helpfully provided by the Supreme Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EEnvironmental limits and targets will have a central role in achieving environmental protection and, where necessary, improvement. Biophysical limits will be set for things like water and air quality, subject to matters of personal taste\u2014a crutch for nimbyism in the present system\u2014have less weight in the new system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EUnder the RMA, national direction is provided across over 20 national policy statements, environmental standards, planning standards, and regulations. The new system consolidates these into a national planning framework, the NPF, that will provide regional spatial strategies under the Spatial Planning Act and the NBEA plans that flow from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe bill knocks over the first in first served for water resources, which, allied with the bias in favour of renewal, has prevented the rational, fair, and economically efficient allocation of water in water short catchments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe average current consent duration is 12 years, but the theoretical maximum is 35. During the transition, renewals will be normally for 10 years, but they\u2019ll be easy to get. Hydro facilities of any size can still get a 35-year renewal. The bill was amended at select committee to enable further exemptions from the 10-year transitional term for nationally and regionally significant infrastructure, including water storage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe new system will better recognise Te Tiriti and Te Ao M\u0101ori. The new laws give effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi in a similar way to the Conservation Act. The legislation commits the Government to fully upholding all Treaty settlement arrangements that currently interact with the RMA. Many of these arrangements were created by the previous National-ACT Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn recognition of the Waikato River settlement, the Prime Minister and I have provided a letter of undertaking to Waikato-Tainui committing to a process to ensure all elements of the Waikato River settlement are upheld in full. It is expected that a Treaty Settlement Transition Settlement Bill for that and other settlements will be introduced to the House in 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori participation has to be efficient. Te Puni K\u014Dkiri already maintain a list of iwi and hap\u016B for each area, but it can\u2019t be relied upon by participants in the RMA processes. That central record will in future be able to be relied upon as an authoritative list or code of M\u0101ori groups who need to be consulted on or notified on plans and consents. This important aspect of the new legislation helps provide greater certainty around who needs to be notified. Of course, the list can be updated, but it can be relied upon by those using it at the time used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EA freshwater working group is established to make recommendations relating to freshwater allocation and a process for engagement between the Crown on M\u0101ori and freshwater allocation. My expectation is that working group will include a broad set of M\u0101ori interests in fresh water, including landowners. Non-M\u0101ori interests are of course also important and must be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe RMA not only failed to protect the environment, it failed to enable provision of infrastructure and housing. Consenting costs and urban land prices soared. Overly restricted planning rules hindered much needed housing intensification. No one is forcing intensification, but plans have prevented people doing what they wanted to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn the five years to 2019, consenting costs increased by 66 percent for non-notified consents and 124 percent for notified. Processing times ballooned by about 15 percent. Consenting costs for mid-size infrastructure\u2014there are about 5.5 percent of total project costs in New Zealand compared to a range of just 0.1 to 5 percent in European countries. New Zealand is outside the extreme end of that range. This legislation fixes that, dealing to the waste of time and money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are many provisions in the new Acts and the NPF to improve outcomes for infrastructure. These include better designation powers. The new system will deliver significant cost savings to system users. New content in the NPF, led by the Infrastructure Commission, will reduce infrastructure consenting costs, including by enabling standards to be used instead of bespoke conditions. Renewable energy is made easier to consent. There will be fewer consent categories and greater clarity up front in plans about what is permitted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s fast-track process decreased consenting times by an average of 15 months, benefiting infrastructure and housing projects. The environmental tests didn\u2019t change, but the process sped up, saving both process and holding costs. Fast Track is reinstated under the NBEA for infrastructure and regionally significant housing projects. The legislation requires plans to meet the environmental protections of the NPF and development outcomes, including more expansive land markets for housing. Analysis indicates that for every dollar spent, the new system will deliver from $2.60 to $4.90 in benefits; in fact, $4.90 is the mid-range. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESystem users will get the biggest benefits through a 20 to 40 percent reduction in consents, efficiency benefits to users\u2014and modelled it between $210 million and $430\u00A0million per annum. Improved land markets will also moderate land prices. Environmental outcomes, which can\u2019t be valued in dollar terms, will also be better as we move from an effects-based regime to an outcomes regime. Again, there\u2019s been too much emphasis on subjective matters of taste, allowing nimbyism, but not enough attention to biophysical cumulative effects. Both of these issues are addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EPoor implementation of the RMA almost guaranteed its failure. A lesson from the RMA is that if you try to do the whole country at once, the system gums up and everything is delayed. So the new system turns on region by region. Central government will give extra help to those regions who go first. High quality plans will help those who follow. The complexity endured in the transition from the Town and Country Planning Act will be avoided. Existing authorisations like resource consents are preserved and acknowledged. We are on the cusp of a new system, more efficient, less costly, positive outcomes for natural and built environments. It will be faster, cheaper, and better, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022527e756707234e3f8158ad9631782f01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022527e756707234e3f8158ad9631782f01\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement the member referred to is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00222590d6c8db9347428343267fe6c203e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222590d6c8db9347428343267fe6c203e7\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E The question before the House is not \u201CIs the Resource Management Act (RMA) bad?\u201D, because you won\u2019t find many people who will defend the RMA; the question before this Parliament, with this bill and its long passage, is: are the bills that the Government has put before the Parliament better than what we have now? That\u2019s the question. And the answer is a demonstrable no. And that\u2019s the reason why the National Party will oppose the third reading of this bill and the Spatial Planning Bill, and, if we are given the privilege of governing the country after 14 October, we will repeal both bills by Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EYou won\u2019t find anyone on this side of the House defending the Resource Management Act, but we are not going to sign up to a mammoth, labyrinthine piece of legislation just because David Parker says he thinks it will work. Actually, we\u2019ve closely scrutinised it and analysed it, and our view is that it will make it harder to do things in New Zealand. It will not lead to things that are \u201Cfaster, cheaper, and better\u201D\u2014to use his language. It will make it harder to do things, it will make it harder to use the environment, and it will make it harder to protect the environment, and therefore we will oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is all very well to rail against the RMA, as Mr Parker, the Minister for the Environment, does. The question has to be: is what the Government\u2019s proposing actually going to work; will it be better? And our view is the answer is no. So the National Party is not just going to go along for the ride with the Government just because they\u2019ve produced a reform package. If the reform package is retrograde and bad, then we in the National Opposition would not be doing our duty if we were to vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EActually, just because a lot of people have spent a lot of time and money on it doesn\u2019t make it right. I acknowledge that there\u2019s been a lot of work gone into it\u2014I see the Associate Minister for the Environment, Rachel Brooking, who was on the Randerson review panel, is here\u2014and a lot of people have worked hard on it. But that doesn\u2019t necessarily mean it\u2019s going to work. That\u2019s a classic sunk cost fallacy. This is how we get ourselves into trouble\u2014we spend a lot of time on something, and we just keep on going and going and going, even though we\u2019re heading in the wrong direction. And that\u2019s actually how we\u2019ve ended up, in some ways, with this position today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo our view is: better to cut and run now; better to stop all work on this because it is fundamentally flawed. That\u2019s why we\u2019re going to repeal it by Christmas. And some people have said, \u201CWell, why don\u2019t you just let it sort of start and let some have a good look at it?\u201D The reason why\u2014the reason why\u2014it has to be repealed forthwith is that there is a 10-year transition window, and there\u2019s an army of officials working away on all the things that will happen once the bills pass, and we have to stop that immediately, or as quickly as possible. So that is why we will get it off the statute box and make it very clear that the new Parliament is not going to have any truck with what has just passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELet me go through the fundamental objections. The first is the purpose of the bill, the Natural Environment Bill\u2014clause 3. The purpose\u2014the sole purpose\u2014is \u201Cto uphold te Oranga o te Taiao.\u201D That\u2019s it. That\u2019s the purpose of the bill\u2014to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daefa2e758d94f81a3ffb00d789bfb3e\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: What does that mean? What does that mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c63005920aea4605807c033555886d29\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Simeon Brown says, \u201CWhat does that mean?\u201D That is actually defined, but that\u2019s another problem\u2014I\u2019ll come to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point is that the purpose must be achieved in a way that protects the health of the natural environment. Now, the word \u201Cprotect\u201D is particularly prescriptive and directive. It\u2019s a strong word. \u201CProtect\u201D means protect. \u201CProtect\u201D means you have to go out of your way to look after the environment. Only subject to the protection of the environment, can you use and develop the environment. So the purpose is to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao\u2014and I\u2019ll come back to that. That must be achieved in a way that protects the natural environment. Only if you can do something in a way that upholds te Oranga o te Taiao and that protects the environment can you use and develop the environment. That is a licence and a charter for doing nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo our objections, as David Parker says, are not about the fact that the bill is long, even though it is, and complicated, even though it is; our objections are fundamental. The starting point for the bill is wrong. The whole starting point\u2014clause 3\u2014infuses itself throughout the rest of the legislation. The system outcomes, in clause 5, have to give effect to the purpose of the bill or ensure that the bill is given effect to. It suffuses itself through the national planning framework and the regional plans. The starting point, the most core piece of legislative architecture in the bill, which will become an Act, is wrong\u2014it is unbalanced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFor David Parker to say it is \u201Cwidely supported\u201D is nonsense. Absolute nonsense. The Environment Committee heard submission after submission from people up and down the country, from widely different political persuasions and different economic perspectives. The support for the bill was actually scant. Support for RMA reform is comprehensive and substantive; support for this bill and this package of bills is thin on the ground, actually. So the idea that it is \u201Cwidely supported\u201D is nonsense. The purpose of the bill is misguided and wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESecondly, the whole approach is naive. Mr Parker thinks that the bill can do everything. On the one hand, he says it\u2019s going to allow for ample land supply and stop the nimbies and it\u2019s going to allow for infrastructure provision and fast track. And, on the other hand, he says, \u201COh, and, at the same time, it\u2019s going to be this enormous boon for the environment\u201D\u2014make it harder to do things, protect the health and wellbeing of natural habitats and indigenous biodiversity, and all the rest of it. He thinks that it can do everything. Actually, the lesson of the RMA is that you can\u2019t\u2014you can\u2019t\u2014do that in the one piece of legislation. So the whole approach is naive and misguided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EEverything has an environmental impact. The using and developing of the environment has an impact on the environment, but things that help the environment, impact the environment. To give an obvious example, wind farms have an impact on the environment. You put in pylons and concrete and all of the work and all of the things that go into wind farms, on land\u2014sometimes that will cut across areas that have, you know, birds and forests and lakes and all the rest of it. Likewise with height. I mean, the most obvious example is not actually wind, it\u2019s hydroelectricity, which has an enormous impact on the environment. But why do we do it? We do it because we want to harness our natural resources in order to provide sustainable, renewable electricity. So all of these things have an impact on the environment and the bill pretends that they don\u2019t, and that\u2019s the problem. The worry is that the courts will decide that new wind farms or hydroelectricity\u2014or anything, actually, for that matter\u2014has an effect on the environment that doesn\u2019t protect it, and it will make it harder to do things. So the approach is naive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe third point is this will inevitably lead to endless litigation. What does the word \u201Cuphold\u201D mean in relation to te Oranga o te Taiao? What does that mean generally? And yes, it\u2019s defined in subclause (3) of clause 3, but that takes you not very far. Most of the subclauses in clause 3 are, essentially, tautological. Most of them don\u2019t actually advance things and help the courts define what it means. And I encourage people to listen to the exchange in the committee stage between Tama Potaka and the Minister, who went through some of the nonsense talked by the Minister in relation to te Oranga o te Taiao.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere will be litigation as a result of this. We are not a wealthy enough country to have endless fights about words in Acts when it comes to doing things in this country. This will be a stumbling block for development, and people said so in the committee. Contact Energy turned up and said this bill will be the single biggest barrier to decarbonising the New Zealand economy. In contradistinction to what the Minister\u2019s just said, the Wind Energy Association said it will be harder after this bill passes to build a wind farm\u2014harder, not easier. Well, these are the guys who actually built them. So it\u2019s all very well for David Parker to say, \u201COh, yeah, we want to make it easier.\u201D\u2014everyone\u2019s in favour of more wind energy. But these are the experts turning up and saying \u201CWe\u2019ve read your 900 page monstrosity and we think it will be harder.\u201D It\u2019s not easy enough now but it will be harder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe national policy statement on renewables, which actually would make a difference, which the Government\u2019s farted around on for six years not developing, isn\u2019t even in the national planning framework. It\u2019s not even in the first national planning framework. The thing that would actually make a difference, they haven\u2019t bothered to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo the purpose is wrong. The whole approach is naive. It will be litigated. It\u2019s a stumbling block for development. We oppose and will repeal it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d819ae2ede76498ba64cabc9a46da336\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d819ae2ede76498ba64cabc9a46da336\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House is suspended until 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1.04 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb23d10dacdd41d2b8041cec85e4d5fc\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002254766ebb11fd422a95504c7514b4be9a\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022168109679f78498cb6686177a2951fa1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa91f881fd88459f818c6b15909e78c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa91f881fd88459f818c6b15909e78c7\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdf73f24f13a47f0bd5cb8e2f5f2a555\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdf73f24f13a47f0bd5cb8e2f5f2a555\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the action this Government has taken on the housing crisis that we inherited in 2017. We have reversed the decline of public home numbers by adding 13,000 new public homes, including 10,000 new builds, and delivering 4,000 transitional houses. We\u2019ve incentivised new builds to reverse the housing deficit, with building consents reaching record levels over our time in Government. We\u2019ve tipped the balance in favour of first-home buyers\u2014so that they are a larger share of the market\u2014by increasing the first-home grants, removing the house price caps from first-home loans, and banning foreign speculators from purchasing existing New Zealand homes. Let me be clear, banning foreign property speculators has made a difference. If it was reversed, it would put our first-home buyers at the back of the queue, which is where they were under the last National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d1fc39ccb74e5d9953429c405a50e5\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it embarrassing that having spent half a billion dollars of taxpayers\u2019 money to restructure the health system, polling reported in the Post this morning shows that 70 percent of New Zealanders say that the health system has got worse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a97d597f7244e17874e1cba1fc073d5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s desperate times for the National Party when they\u2019re quoting their own pollster in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f596446829f4671be6e61601bdfef45\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Which failure in health does he think is most responsible for the 70 percent of Kiwis saying the health system is worse; is it the record wait times in emergency departments, the thousands of Kiwis on surgical wait-lists, or the collapse in childhood immunisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293ae5e0bca3547d1baa9d69f92001ddd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a tragic day when the National Party can\u2019t find any evidence to back up its arguments in the House, other than jacked-up polls done by their own pollster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220833461ab5b84b639348e990e78143ad\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Go talk to some people. How is it possible that he can spend $5\u00A0billion more on education, only for 81 percent of Kiwis to say that there has been no improvement since the last election, with 57 percent saying it\u2019s actually got worse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212b1dba0465a434fa4b135d25769fa6a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the biggest driver of the increased spending in education is the increased salaries. The question that the member asked probably explains why teachers got such paltry pay rises under the last National Government, and why it\u2019s been up to us to make sure that their wages have been catching up. I am very proud of the fact that teachers\u2019 salaries at the top end of the salary scale\u2014which, for secondary and primary teachers, is most of the teachers\u2014have gone up so significantly under our Government from somewhere around 70 grand to over a $100,000 a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beeb56d6f13d4cc0a89ab7354bcd0e8d\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Which of his failures in education does he think is influencing Kiwis the most: his broken polytechnic mega-merger, the record number of Kiwi kids not in school, or the abysmal decline in basic skills like literacy and numeracy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e702d3d81bcc4f0093b0ebd349b44e18\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I will make no apology for the work the Government has done to clean up the mess in vocational education that we inherited from the last Government, where almost all of our polytechnics were going broke and probably wouldn\u2019t still be around if we hadn\u2019t stepped in to bail them out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b78f887991e4585b699c1f6c4c7fe34\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Who is right: the 64 percent of New Zealanders who say that the criminal justice system has got worse since the last election, or the Minister of Police, Ginny Andersen, who says New Zealanders feel safer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259aa8b27488c4147b6f368cd3c117f88\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is going to continue to quote Ministers out of the full context of their quotes, that can go both ways. We could start quoting him out of context as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db1eab8804942a2a0fac07694f94bf7\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he think Kiwis have totally lost faith in his Government on law and order; is it the 107 percent increase in serious assaults, two ram raids every day, or the 70 percent increase in gang membership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244787c7feb07491a9b263bd89a6136d1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: What New Zealanders can have confidence in is when it comes to issues like violent crime, we are making sure that that violent crime is actually being reported. One of the biggest drivers of the increase in violent crime reporting has been an increase in reporting of domestic violence. That is something that the members opposite don\u2019t like to talk about; it\u2019s something that, actually, we should acknowledge. More people are reporting domestic violence than they used to. I actually think that that is an encouraging sign that New Zealanders\u2019 tolerance for that kind of violent crime is no longer what it used to be. That is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dd3c08aecda4805bcc490e0326d470c\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it obvious that whether it\u2019s health, education, or law and order, it doesn\u2019t matter how much taxpayer money it spends, this incompetent Labour Government is simply incapable of delivering better outcomes for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e16d6d60cec4725a473667ebbeb2815\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Once again, the member fails to acknowledge where the extra spending is going. Actually, if we look at health and we look at education, one of the biggest drivers of the increase in spending is that we are paying people properly, something the last National Government did not do. For those people who lose their jobs if National gets in and decides to cut public spending to pay for tax cuts, the tax cuts won\u2019t mean very much at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002298ac7ba029f54f0892eb063d5bd46f8a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Sport and Recreation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7d44cd0d7a54a18a0bbb05d504fc169\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7d44cd0d7a54a18a0bbb05d504fc169\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Sport and Recreation: What has been the impact on New Zealand of co-hosting the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022204e9261d6274ce28caedb06281307cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022204e9261d6274ce28caedb06281307cc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E The tournament has been an extraordinary showcase for New Zealand. We\u2019ve had more than 700,000 people attend the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup, in the 29 games held in New Zealand, and watched the exceptional athletes and wonderful football that has been on offer. We\u2019ve seen record crowds for a football match in New Zealand, at 43,217; the biggest stadium crowd for a sporting event in New Zealand so far this year; the biggest TV audience for a football match shown in New Zealand in 20 years; nearly 165,000 people have attended FIFA fan festivals; and more than 20,000 international visitors have come to watch games here in New Zealand, providing a boost to the tourism and hospitality industries during what is traditionally a quieter period of time. I\u2019d like to thank New Zealanders for getting out to support this event, as well as those involved in the organisation, and, in particular, the 5,000 volunteers who have put their time into making this tournament a success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212fb235101f84f5ead5b59364cf621b5\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What other impact has the tournament had on New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b39fc2e476646dba55d18afbdbf1ddd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The tournament has caught the attention of football fans around the world. FIFA has reported that the group stages alone saw records broken for ticket sales, broadcast figures, and digital media. The tournament is set to exceed the 1.1 billion people who tuned into the last world cup, in 2019, and, in doing so, highlights New Zealand\u2019s unique value and raises the country\u2019s international profile. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment will carry out a post-event analysis to determine the economic impact of the tournament. However, a report for the Hotel Council Aotearoa found that hotel room occupancy rates were 7 percent above the equivalent month before the pandemic and represented the highest increase in occupancy rates since the pandemic. As one tourism operator was reported as saying, they\u2019ve experienced \u201Cthree weeks of mid-summer levels of business, almost exclusively because of this tournament\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022039ad2e05f7b49b28d8d6a962eabb2d0\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What legacy has been created by co-hosting the tournament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab94b31f0bb4ee7bfa3a5b73094ab09\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the event has provided us with an opportunity to create significant social benefits for our country. Communities across New Zealand will benefit from newly upgraded sporting facilities as a result of $25 million that the Government has invested across 30 sporting facilities, including pitch, lighting, and facility enhancements, unisex changing spaces, and event infrastructure. Funding has also been set aside to support a leverage and legacy programme, which includes 50 projects around the country, including several projects that are being delivered by mana whenua groups. This aligns with the Government\u2019s strategy for women and girls in sport and active recreation: to grow visibility, participation, and new female leaders in sport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022314587e966cc4c9d85bcf816bcd131ee\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: How does the FIFA world cup align with the Government\u2019s women and girls in sport strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95291a388a14b8595770618fe751d40\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In 2018, the Government launched New Zealand\u2019s first ever women and girls in sport strategy, with three themes: participation, leadership, and valuing visibility. I am proud of the strides that we have made in promoting women\u2019s sport across New Zealand and across the world. The FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup 2023 is the culmination of New Zealand\u2019s hosting of three major international women\u2019s sporting events: the ICC Women\u2019s Cricket World Cup, the Rugby World Cup, and the International Working Group Conference on Women and Sport. By creating a platform through which to encourage and inspire women and girls to be involved in sport, these events play a key role in further advancing each of the strategy outcomes in Aotearoa New Zealand. I\u2019m immensely proud of New Zealanders\u2019 hosting of this event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f0b81c227904ca58db14cc3af23ebea\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Oceans and Fisheries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f00d12e52b7941e2b182e999d9be0336\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f00d12e52b7941e2b182e999d9be0336\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries: Does she agree with the statement in the State of our Gulf 2023 report, \u201Crecent events have underscored the precarious nature of the situation and the ecological tipping points we seem intent on testing\u201D; if so, does she consider that the Hauraki Gulf Fisheries Plan is an adequate response to the situation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227e057f0b4d8c422fa5e33139d384d82b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e057f0b4d8c422fa5e33139d384d82b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the question, yes. The fisheries plan and wider marine protections announced last week are a significant milestone in protecting the Hauraki Gulf. The plan itself is the first of its kind: an ecosystems-based approach tailored to the unique challenges facing the gulf. However, our work does not end there. Just this morning, in a speech to the New Zealand Seafood Conference, I called the industry\u2019s attention to the very report the member references. The Hauraki Gulf is one of the most beautiful and productive waterways in the world and it is under stress. We need action, working alongside mana whenua, communities, and wider industry, and that is exactly what a Labour Government will continue to deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022318d146831714cf89947df48147014e8\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Is she confident that the fisheries plan will restore fish stocks once abundant in T\u012Bkapa Moana\u2014the Hauraki Gulf\u2014such as snapper and kahawai, and prevent any further fisheries from collapsing, as the scallop fishery has?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b1a5e853394a5db9350909093b3167\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: The plan will continue to look at what all those species are doing. It is a five-year plan, and it has an action plan for every year, and a lot of the actions include monitoring. Where there are specific measures needed for specific stock within the gulf, further regulatory actions can be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b61239695aa34d85b4daad6b97e20a63\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Why has she not acted immediately to ban bottom trawling in the Hauraki Gulf given the clear public mandate of more than 2,000 public submissions on the draft fisheries plan and 36,000 people signing a petition calling for a ban on bottom trawling in the Hauraki Gulf?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a70d3cee82804c4ba4faa06965aaac0b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: At the moment, 27 percent of the Hauraki Gulf has bottom trawling banned from it, and one of the actions in the fisheries plan is to really reverse that presumption so that bottom trawling in the gulf can\u2019t happen, except for in very specific areas. We will soon be consulting on the size of those very specific areas, and\u2014to the member\u2019s question about why not totally ban it at the moment\u2014in general, of our whole fishery, 67 percent of our fisheries is from bottom trawling, and it is a significant part of our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bd3888b5e8f4bdca2e7f4d89e7d3acf\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Has she sought advice from Fisheries New Zealand about the risk of bottom trawling spreading the invasive seaweed Caulerpa brachypus, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d60f8cb88b634f519d7e1a67298cdfcb\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve certainly had many discussions with the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) about Caulerpa and its spread. In those discussions, the evidence does seem to say that where the Caulerpa is found is in areas where there are yachts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223191283f22994cd597ede663f4b6ad5b\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable that mana whenua and community groups have had to take their own action, such as establishing a r\u0101hui around Waiheke Island and elsewhere, to help restore fish stocks in the absence of prompt Government action?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b443e340ff6d42a488fa6c3441748240\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Shout-out to Ng\u0101ti Paoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e319f98c3164cb29a1ff31856261dfb\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I just heard a little heckle there from the member for Auckland Central, and I do agree with it. There is amazing work being undertaken by community groups in that area at the moment, and I commend them for that. Caulerpa is a biosecurity problem, and that doesn\u2019t fall under my delegations, but of course it is relevant to the fisheries in the Hauraki Gulf, and there has been over $3 million spent by MPI on this issue already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221214a3492154578be8fe18f5bb1bbef\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Will she take strong and urgent action to ensure the health of the gulf is restored rather than allowing the continued trends of decline, as has happened in the 20 years since the Hauraki Gulf Marine Park was established?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a559ed07b4f4180af11fffa47572954\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I consider that this fisheries plan and the work that will continue on as it\u2019s implemented is strong action, and there\u2019s always more that can be done, both on land and in the sea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f1f21c1c0f74cb18ebeb9d5a9b18df1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022 data-id=\u0022b17b6f3b24c74fb68c65193ef2f4c405\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b17b6f3b24c74fb68c65193ef2f4c405\u0022\u003ESORAYA PEKE-MASON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What has the Government done to support the health workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1768dfdca1f437cbbe5aed4cd020146\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1768dfdca1f437cbbe5aed4cd020146\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E So many things. We have taken a range of actions to boost and support the health workforce. We are training more medical students, increasing the number of nursing placements, boosting the number of people working in the public health system, and we are increasing their pay. We are focused on making our health workforce more sustainable, growing our own workforce, and building a workforce representative of our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220639457012ba42eaa25f61ea426f73c9\u0022\u003ESoraya Peke-Mason\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Government done to improve the pay and conditions of nurses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f8b85aed586438abf2cbe8ec9596b88\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve done a lot to improve the conditions of nurses, including growing their workforce. We\u2019ve boosted our international recruitment and now provide up to $10,000 in financial support for international nurses to cover their New Zealand registration costs. Proof of the impact of this work: in the quarter from 1 April to 30 June this year, 3,000 nurses got registration in New Zealand for the first time. Now that pay equity has been settled and their collective has been ratified, graduate nurses now earn $73,566 a year and registered nurses on the top step now earn $103,630 a year. Increasing the pay of nurses goes a long way to retaining them in our system, and as a result, in the public health system we have seen over 5,000 nursing fulltime-equivalents across our time in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f338936aa59d4c79b48036e5e85a02cd\u0022\u003ESoraya Peke-Mason\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s workforce plan support the sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022658a9aed57584964b64552b2f2454a4a\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Protecting, promoting, and improving the health of New Zealanders is only achievable with a strong health workforce. That\u2019s why we have released the Health Workforce Plan with six action areas and initiatives that will make an immediate difference to deliver the long-term shifts we need for the sustainability of our workforce. For example, to grow the number of doctors working in general practice, we will grow our rural generalist pathways, scale the General Practice Education Programme\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7e70158bc424b39a260b25120f1029a\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Six years of neglect\u2014six long years of neglect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587ccc2eac5d4417a8912ea2b9312c37\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to 300 places a year by 2026\u2014is someone over there opposed to training general practitioners? Speak up!\u2014and establish a national picture of health training pathways. It will take time for the actions we\u2019re talking to to be fully realised, but we are laying the pathway of a much better health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6f3fe69d1043c6b620b56074af01e4\u0022\u003ESoraya Peke-Mason\u003C/span\u003E: Great work e te Minita. Supplementary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b743ddc93a1244c8b7fbe13b79d03082\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! You just wasted that question. You got another one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228152f5a7af674a7aa4ed74a8571085ed\u0022\u003ESoraya Peke-Mason\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government focused on supporting the health workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a01790e391824de386e575db1b5d0b1b\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: We are working on long-term plans to ensure a representative and responsive workforce to meet the future needs of New Zealanders, no matter where they are, who they are, or where they live. Global workforce shortages and long-term underinvestment has put a lot of pressure on our workforce, and these challenges are not unique to New Zealand. Over the next year, stabilising our domestic workforce and supporting them to manage the day-to-day pressures will be a key focus. Workforce has been a demonstrated priority for this Government, and we have a long-term plan to assure a sustainable, representative, and responsive workforce to meet our future needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e9ea00f37aa47729f7533da099567c2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00221373eb661ea5449ca45eb887263af0e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221373eb661ea5449ca45eb887263af0e1\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions related to Government tax and spending decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00223449b4c89f9d472abe656838ddc6d3b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223449b4c89f9d472abe656838ddc6d3b8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made and undertaken, acknowledging that that context can change as a result, for example, of the global and domestic economic backdrop, including the emergence of a one-in-a-hundred-year economic shock linked to a global pandemic or the second-most expensive natural disaster to hit this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f59a8818f534a3398532c6a397d2137\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think the 80 percent increase in annual Government spending that has occurred on his watch has delivered an 80 percent improvement in public services, and, if so, why don\u2019t New Zealanders agree with him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deaa1e17bfaa4d9998dc9a5fb1ca1f5f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: To reiterate the words of the Prime Minister earlier, David Farrar is obviously charging a lot of money, because he has to get many, many mentions of his work in the House. I am proud of the fact that, as this Government, we supported New Zealanders through the COVID pandemic. The large chunk of the extra expenditure that the member is talking about was devoted to getting households, businesses, individuals, and communities through the pandemic in a healthy way and with their businesses still operating and with people still in work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db18040bcec041f28d0768399b07de26\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm net Crown debt has risen from $5.4 billion in 2019 to $73.3 billion today, and what does New Zealand have to show for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec3f50a405354b7687ddbf611b34f61d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm, yes indeed. To get through the pandemic, we did indeed increase the borrowing that we did as a country. What New Zealanders have got to show for it is that tens of thousands of their family and friends are alive today because we adopted the approach we did. What we\u2019ve got is 3.6 percent unemployment\u2014one of the record-low levels of unemployment because we stepped in and we looked after people and we looked after businesses. The member might want to rewrite history and join Mr Seymour in the faculty of hindsight economics; on this side of the House, we deal with what\u2019s in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022169f7c26aedb4dfd97da682c4c184968\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Were Treasury and IRD right when they said, \u201CFiscal drag has had the greatest impact on average full-time wage earners, and why won\u2019t he adjust brackets and allow New Zealanders to keep more of what they earn, when he seems to be able to find billions of dollars each time Chris Hipkins asks for quick cash, but he won\u2019t find a cent for working New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c91e48f43dbf433c99e13fdcf0cfaf07\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is absolute nonsense. We have consistently over the last few years increased support for working New Zealanders, be it through the family tax credit, be it through childcare assistance, be it through the lifting of the minimum wage. What I note is that our focus is on supporting New Zealanders to increase their incomes by their wages rising. The National Party seem to think that the only way you can increase someone\u2019s income is by cutting their taxes; that is a road to nowhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204cb84ee84644f2f9efeed0ea15ca33d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How can he claim there is no wasteful spending that could better be used for tax reduction when the Ministry for Pacific Peoples can find $40,000 for a leaving party, and how much has he budgeted for his?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229024e724c99142fbb310c181a905bec8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, I invite the member to think about all of the Governments in all of the history of New Zealand and think about things like hair straighteners at Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment or an $11 million sheep farm in the middle of the Saudi desert. The Prime Minister has been clear that that expenditure was inappropriate. There is no budget, there is no leaving party. However, I am prepared to donate to the member\u2019s party when she becomes the leader and rolls Christopher Luxon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e643bd7bab224970a6446f27cc29ec88\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Now that he\u2019s had to walk back his views on depreciation deductions, GST, wealth tax, and capital gains tax, does he accept that his real legacy after six years in Government will be a highly indebted, highly taxed economy in which public services have gone backwards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0a879df65754a568da95a8e238e5ce4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s probably the most assertions I\u2019ve heard in a supplementary. The member can answer however he likes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c4fb75882ad456a85c135820c38c500\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In which case, I will speak freely in response to that. The questions of legacy come when someone is at the end of their political career; I\u2019m not. I\u2019m here because I\u2019m want to make sure that we lift more children out of poverty\u2014the 77,000 that we\u2019ve lifted. I\u2019m here to make sure that we add to the 60,000 apprentices that we\u2019ve trained in our time here. I\u2019m here to make sure that unemployment stays low, that wages keep rising, and that we support and look after New Zealanders. The member betrays something, though, doesn\u2019t she? It\u2019s all about personal stuff, legacies, for that member. This Government is here for all New Zealanders; that member is here for herself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7ab3e6f198642e2bc91e5075a4fc5e5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002222510d5084404d21a8279ba3b2945b20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222510d5084404d21a8279ba3b2945b20\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Finance: What is the Government doing to ban foreign buyers from the New Zealand residential property market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222199b9dee74f4c4f95808fa2a333c010\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222199b9dee74f4c4f95808fa2a333c010\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E When this Government took office, around 20 percent of homes in central Auckland and 10 percent of homes in the Queenstown region were being purchased by overseas buyers. We fixed that within 100 days by introducing legislation to effectively ban foreign buyers of existing residential homes in New Zealand. Now the percentage of foreign buyers of New Zealand homes is just 0.5 percent. This is a successful policy that has delivered on its promise to restrict foreign buyers of New Zealand homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f974b71c14ff4193a0eaa72b653694e9\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important that the New Zealand housing market is set by New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225276f2b20b724755976ce110597487e4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: This Government believes New Zealanders should not be outbid for homes by wealthy foreign buyers. Whether it\u2019s a beautiful lakeside or ocean-front house or a modest suburban home, this law ensures that the market for our homes is set in New Zealand not on the international market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da54fccb8e274a40803619e01d9d7bb8\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: How does the ban on foreign buyers of New Zealand homes interact with our trade agreements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240dbbd33ed1945c8b47317c7c85de00e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government banned foreign buyers before the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal came into effect. If we had not done so, foreign citizens from within that agreement and other countries we have trade agreements with, including China and now the European Union, could not be prevented from buying up New Zealand homes. If that position is reversed by any future Government, such a law may be irreversible without violating our international trade agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5baeec2b07844d8a060d14f8c863b53\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government have any plans to loosen the ban on foreign buyers of New Zealand homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295bf2d60e7564dfc824ff0636f2fa4df\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is not considering that because removing the foreign buyer ban would not be for the benefit of New Zealanders; it would only be for the benefit of foreign capital. Giving open slather to foreign buyers would be selling out young New Zealanders who are finally getting a foot on the property ladder, because, under settings like we have in this Government, the percentage of homes that go to people who live in them rather than rent them out\u2014from overseas or New Zealand\u2014owner-occupiers do better under us. Allowing foreign buyers into our housing market would send young Kiwi first-home buyers to the back of the queue. Our position is clear. The position of other parties is for the media to investigate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223342177e806d4d499fcdf7885732b306\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile this opposition to foreign capital with the Government\u2019s announcement of a $2 billion fund funded by BlackRock, a foreign capital fund, to invest in renewable energy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022149e276f8a124ad6a053aa5ca570fc6c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike the other side of the House, we\u2019ve always seen a difference between foreign direct investment in companies and in, actually, commercial property, compared with allowing rich-listers from overseas to outbid New Zealanders for a modest house in South Auckland. New Zealanders want one house to live in. We don\u2019t want rich people from overseas outbidding them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e08ba3f6de764e2a9718267aa917916c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff7f4835b277495da9735ae9199dfd07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff7f4835b277495da9735ae9199dfd07\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: What percentage of all accredited businesses have had a post-accreditation check completed since the Accredited Employer Work Visa was introduced, and what percentage of Accredited Employer Work Visas logged with Immigration New Zealand have had a verification check completed since applications opened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac162bba15374504a26bc6691954671e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac162bba15374504a26bc6691954671e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the member\u2019s question, 27,947 accredited employer applications have been approved, 609 post-accreditation checks have been completed, and 1,723 are in progress. Therefore, 2.2\u00A0percent of all approved accredited employer applications have had a post-accreditation check completed, and a further 6 percent are in progress since the Accredited Employer Work Visa (AEWV) was introduced on 23\u00A0May last year. To the second part of the member\u2019s question, 100 percent of approved work visas logged with Immigration New Zealand have been assessed by an immigration officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ea3a376bca946bf9d6a62fd8577b7b7\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The second part of my question was quite specific and asked how many of the work visas logged with Immigration New Zealand have had a verification check completed, and that was not answered or addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2eb2ca6234a44058d7744df204deced\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it was, but you can use your supplementaries to explore that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab845c20e9074a7b9ec296674d443ada\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: How can he claim that the AEWV will reduce migrant exploitation when Immigration New Zealand have approved 64,000 work visas while only conducting verification checks on 2,330 of these, a little over 3 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d16287933eb4d1192eeadb25b6500d5\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s facts are wrong, which is unfortunately par for the course for her. In excess of 77,000 visas have been given to workers under the Accredited Employer Visa work program.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eb44f4b1d1d4e509136ccc7eb5f0884\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to table an email from Immigration New Zealand to an immigration advisor stating that of the 63,800 visas that have been granted, only\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ff5ad185ac643c899036de89e22ac1b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c1bf6136ee64e26901b6197b92c501d\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: In other words you\u2019re wrong, as per usual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a31c1baaace04e03a0ccb4a2500d443c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Be quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af998e4ba1fc41f5aabe6a7c1a90156e\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abc935c814f742cfb5a9e13a16359a63\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you can have one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a2ec36266249919c6b34ec38dc709a\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. When he told the media that \u201Cvery few\u201D of the 27,000 accredited employers are participating in fraud, how does he know this, given just 2.2 percent of accredited employers have had post-accreditation checks completed and in light of the increasing number of migrant exploitation stories in the media, Immigration New Zealand have now conceded they simply do not know how widespread migrant exploitation is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b3f00b8640d4408b75fd446428b7f34\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a number of issues in that question, but of the 27,892 accredited employers, they weren\u2019t all accredited on day one. That number is as at 14 August this year, and the other relevant figure as at 14 August this year is 80,576 Accredited Employer Work Visa applications have been revealed. And so the member has revealed in her question today just how out of date she is. But to answer the particular point that I think the member was making, the post-accreditation checks are happening, and that is why a number have lost their accreditation, a number have been suspended, and a number are under investigation. That is what happens. I\u2019m just intrigued by that member, who suddenly wants a lot more checks and processes, in light of her comment only a couple of months ago when she said she was \u201Cconcerned about the over-regulation of these businesses under the accredited employer visa scheme.\u201D The member is flaky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba58ce331d524f69a963c4b907dcde3d\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: When he stated in the Estimates debate that \u201Cwhat we are seeing now is reported levels of migrant exploitation that are in fact what they always were;\u201D, can he explain if the reports on Monday night of 40 migrant workers whose jobs never materialised, living in a three-bedroom overcrowded home for months with no money, begging for food before, out of desperation, calling the police is as it has always been?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2b23aba9ef047968b58b98c4fe9edf7\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The events that have transpired in relation to that group of workers who have been the subject of publicity in the last few days have been absolutely horrific and have been absolutely tragic, and they are the victims of a scam and a fraud that now clearly crosses boundaries. Sadly, migrant worker exploitation and the exploitation of, for example, students on visas in this country is, tragically, not new. What we need to make sure of is that we have systems that keep abreast of it and enable our enforcement officials and authorities to enforce compliance with the law, and that is what is happening right now with that case and the other cases that have come to light\u2014most of which have been notified through the renewed notification processes that this Government put in place two years ago because we knew that migrant worker exploitation was hugely underreported and has been for years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223904831b30e44b6a822dfcf587573322\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4ad9d075788482e93fe96b8f1fcc4d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4ad9d075788482e93fe96b8f1fcc4d9\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What updates has she seen about the Police\u2019s use of laws to target gangs and organised crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022f458a84a0cb7436faff967200b4547ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f458a84a0cb7436faff967200b4547ec\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Following heightened tensions in the Manawat\u016B, police last week invoked the use of criminal activity intervention legislation (CAIL) to provide warrant powers to search vehicles\u2014and the occupants of vehicles\u2014of suspected gang members. This is the second time the legislation has been invoked since it came into effect in April of this year. Once again, it has proven to be a vital tool in police\u2019s ability to crack down on gangs. Under this warrant, police searched 21 vehicles, 34 members and associates; and resulted in three arrests, three firearms and five other weapons being seized. Most importantly, the law had a chilling effect on gang activities and aided the lowering of tensions in the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad909185d1bf44269960891912029b3e\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: What effect are laws like the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Act having?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205c207a5f4f547b39c5165a853a17431\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Under the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Act, police have now laid five charges for discharging a firearm to intimidate and have issued two warrants, in both \u014Cp\u014Dtiki and the Manawat\u016B, resulting in a total of 48 vehicles being seized, seven firearms and 16 other weapons being seized, and 12 arrests. I\u2019ve also heard from police on the front line that having the warrants in place leads to lowering tensions and a quicker dispersal of gang members. Our commitment of 700 additional officers working on organised crime is having clear and tangible benefits, unlike other silly policies suggested in this House, such as asking gang members to take off their patches and giving them a ticket for hanging out together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220164fdbebd4a47d7b9a6df5f0b487ff6\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she received on these law changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022445a6031ee574e15b52217b91ed21198\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: What I hear directly from front-line police is that the laws this Government has implemented are making meaningful difference to their work cracking down on gangs and organised crime. Police officers that I talk to directly specifically cite their overwhelming support for the provisions contained within the CAIL that allows for warrantless searches during periods of heightened gang conflicts\u2014also the new abilities to freeze criminal assets, through amendments to the Criminal Proceeds Recovery Act. This Government remains committed to smart legislation that cracks down on gangs and organised crime, not pointless chest beating that does nothing to back our cops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d2880c7911545aba9287789a1053809\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: What further reports has she seen on police targeting organised crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022134e9b8f2b5347e88ebf5853ac200560\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: To quote the front of today\u2019s New Zealand Herald: \u201CMeth: police net record haul\u201D. Police have just confirmed that meth bust, provisionally calculated, is at 747 kilos, the largest in New Zealand\u2019s history. I would like to commend the hard work of front-line police and Customs in cracking down on illicit drugs to keep that harm out of our communities. I have no doubt that this Government\u2019s increase in police funding of 50 percent, an additional 1,800 officers, and continued strengthening of our laws is ensuring police have the rules and the tools they need to actually tackle organised crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002297c5afd2ce0b492f815683da030807f9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Pacific Peoples\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022407d567ac77540e296bd0c3c7aff7801\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022407d567ac77540e296bd0c3c7aff7801\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Pacific Peoples: Is she confident that taxpayers\u2019 money is being spent appropriately at the Ministry for Pacific Peoples?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00227b23d92fd3144a96851ef519d8d03db0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b23d92fd3144a96851ef519d8d03db0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Defence) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Pacific Peoples: On behalf of the Minister, in general, yes, but it is correct that the Public Service Commission was recently brought in to investigate spending by that ministry. The commission concluded that the spending on a function to farewell the former chief executive was inappropriate, and that is a conclusion that I agree with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af2b82f12b9481b8e03cc03575e6724\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Which Ministers, if any, were invited to, and attended, the farewell party for the outgoing chief executive of the Ministry for Pacific Peoples on 13 and 14\u00A0October 2022, that cost taxpayers almost $40,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022352167712d1f4e279d7f1f48a550f3af\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I understand two Ministers, at least one former Minister and a current Minister, attended the event. I should, just for the sake of the record, also point out that although a total of $39,262.00 was spent on that function, approximately $11,000 has been refunded by the person in whose honour the event was organised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211e35f9f45df4c70a3956a9228a44855\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that the only reason the Government is now criticising the almost $40,000 farewell party at the Ministry for Pacific Peoples is because it finally came to light through an Official Information Act request?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294785e500cc74e3396dac5f3f55a2975\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, the information that Ministers received came as a result of the Public Service Commission investigation into the matter, and Ministers were keen to see that investigation take place, and Ministers agree with the conclusion of that investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238907d9864ea47b4886711680733d385\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware of any other instances of excessive spending by the ministry, and, if so, what are these instances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c10557433b7b4806a66bf85e73f83ca3\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, no, and that ministry has now tightened up its guidelines on its spending, but, in any event, it\u2019s a ministry whose spending to date has made a difference to many, many members of the communities in whose interests they work. For example, the financial literacy campaign has seen nearly 3,000 Pacific Island citizens and residents learn financial management skills, and that has seen 120 of them now in homeownership that otherwise they would not have been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d988a2c5ad14800910e7db0c92964c4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u002230661af7c6d1431bb47121c4cc2e24b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230661af7c6d1431bb47121c4cc2e24b6\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What recent evidence has he seen that the Commerce Commission is acting in line with Government expectations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4cb38b9e1d54033a586808193ff3144\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4cb38b9e1d54033a586808193ff3144\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Seen heaps. Firstly, the commission\u2019s recently provided an excellent preliminary issues paper on the market study that I initiated into personal banking. Second, the Commerce Commission has successfully sought the highest ever fine under the Fair Trading Act: $3.675 million against One NZ, previously known as Vodafone, for misleading consumers. Thirdly, I recently appointed the first ever Grocery Commissioner, who has the tools to improve competition in the sector and hold supermarkets to account. This is all evidence that the Commerce Commission is meeting the expectations I laid out: that it will drive competitive markets and it will act with confidence to deter anti-competitive behaviour. The Commerce Commission is playing a vital role in keeping big businesses such as banks, telcos, and supermarkets in check\u2014all part of this Government\u2019s relentless focus on the cost of living for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de2928edf7074209836c0df7d93874f7\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: What will the banking study help achieve for consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022424fff1274ee4fec9ff68de4b2cf9f5a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: The study will look at the range of banking services people take up for personal or household use, with a focus on deposit accounts and home loans. Research shows New Zealand banks are more profitable than in comparable economies over the past decade. This raises questions on whether there is enough competition in personal banking. The preliminary issues paper published last week proposes to look at how competition is working, and will recommend any actions the Government should take to strengthen competition in the sector once the study has concluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022416e0cd0f32248b1853ec84c6166f9c9\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Commerce Commission take action against One NZ?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea335eb69774bf3b8fdbc00599a328e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Because the company misled consumers as to the nature of their product and distorted competition for the supply of broadband services in New Zealand. The commission called out the initial fine of $2.25 million as \u201Cmanifestly inadequate\u201D. They successfully appealed, and ultimately the fine was raised to $3.675\u00A0million\u2014the highest ever under the Fair Trading Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b0cc75b9af34ed089b74a55e9f926e3\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: How will the new Grocery Commissioner help protect New Zealand consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9e554239ad34b4fb69ccbf49b6667c1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a lot of interest in the Grocery Commissioner. The commissioner has broad powers to investigate how effectively and efficiently the grocery industry is operating. This includes the ability to examine costs, revenue, and margin, and to require anyone with relevant information to supply it. And the commissioner has adequate powers to ensure that the cost savings from the removal of GST from fruit and vegetables will be passed on to consumers when it comes into effect in 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276805bc5579248778ce50580715602a0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022358d191022fb44c98cdc4f7b564e70e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022358d191022fb44c98cdc4f7b564e70e9\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What advice, if any, has he requested from his officials regarding the Global Dairy Trade Auction Price Index falling by 7.4 percent overnight, and what impact does he expect this fall will have on New Zealand\u2019s wider economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022b452f1e49aac489fbdee7bc188454062\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b452f1e49aac489fbdee7bc188454062\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the member\u2019s question, yes, I have requested advice from the Ministry for Primary Industries about the change in the Global Dairy Trade Price Index. To the second part of the question, I will quote, for a start, ANZ rural economist Susan Kilsby, who said this morning, \u201CWe\u2019ve seen these cycles before, and everyone does get through them,\u201D. This will have a big impact on our economy and this Government commits to work with the dairy industry to ensure that market opportunities are opened up and that we assist them with the vital infrastructure that they and their farmers need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a551b70ff8cf41d5b22e06d300c5a8d0\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Is it still his Government\u2019s policy to price agricultural emissions, a policy which could decrease net revenue for dairy farmers by 6 to 7 percent despite the fall in the Global Dairy Trade Price Index?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109f5b77d2494b8ab04fb8799c399a92\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: This Government\u2019s been working with all the agricultural sectors for about five years. We\u2019ve made good progress in the recent week or two. We are committed to include agricultural pricing in our international emissions reduction programme. I\u2019ll remind him and the National Party that it was in 1997 that former Minister Simon Upton committed New Zealand\u2019s agricultural emissions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de09b8bbfff341cba894746b3e78d4ca\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re making it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296a5b4dbfde64c688447d45e0e5ef4a2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to our international obligations to reduce them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d8209baca2d442bbcc34f7ea4921baf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Christopher Luxon will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d98a6d248b5743318bd2f55b5076f274\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eea4c57b73c41c882e8c72ad34a1d7f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I\u2019m a little bit deaf, particularly to comments like that. Can I say that it is irresponsible for any agricultural leaders to ignore the market realities that are coming at us. Can I quote, \u201CFonterra\u2019s biggest customer is Nestle. Nestle has a commitment to reduce its Scope 1, 2, and 3 emissions by 50 percent by 2030.\u201D If we don\u2019t participate in that emissions reduction programme and give honest signals to farmers, we are misleading them and they will be locked out of markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a0dd0852a7347eabac8a469bb567268\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: See if you can respond in a ministerial statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294266649c87c4926b8d73c096920e337\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That\u2019s completely out of order. Come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ddf1ca483e4343b38657ad5c56d4e0\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Has he asked his colleagues to put a hold on essential freshwater regulations which increase cost for dairy farmers via expensive resource consenting and freshwater farm plans, given dairy farmers are facing record high production costs and falling dairy prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215a5bbe0b0924ddbba671f8ac1f7258c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m acutely aware of the dilemmas that the dairy farmers are facing at the moment. There is a whole range of different dairy farming operations, some that will be paying $4 to $5 per kilogram of milk solids to produce their milk, and others that will be requiring over $8. Resilience is the trendy word of the day. What we are saying to the sectors is that we must be prepared for the cycles that inevitably go down. We have been seeing record returns and prices for dairy and other primary sector income. This year a record $56 billion in gross export earnings have come into this country, a lot of it from dairy. If you have prices so high in commodity markets, the only way for them to go usually is down, and it is important that we warn farmers, including the increasing requirements on market access. And if that member thinks we can continue to have degradation of our water, degradation of our biodiversity, and outrageous animal welfare practice and still get into our high-value markets, he\u2019s misleading the dairy industry that he proposes to represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd88c165e824ecb9331ced5690967eb\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Will he ask James Shaw to dump significant natural areas, a policy that will mean farmers lose even more productive land to Government red tape?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e9e854a23204fca8fbae2b623879daf\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Since 1992, when the National Government passed the Resource Management Act, significant natural areas have been a legal obligation for councils to identify. The fact that many of them have not and that now there is a requirement to do so is simply part of the reality that if we are to market into places like the European Union, they require us to be responsible managers of biodiversity, of our natural features and attributes. It\u2019s the reality that we face as the producer of the finest food and fibre in the world trying to sell to the world\u2019s most discerning markets. We have put hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money to assist the farmers through this journey. We\u2019ll continue to do that. If he thinks that\u2019s not necessary, he\u2019s misleading himself and the farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022375aae50598b46fbb030bd95600e3549\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb852fcd868140339cec0b42d6a8d343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb852fcd868140339cec0b42d6a8d343\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CIt is my view that New Zealanders feel safer\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00220e58f4d0aae344f397dfa2384e2196d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e58f4d0aae344f397dfa2384e2196d1\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E For those in the back, I stand by my full statement at the time it was given, that it is my view that New Zealanders feel safer with a Government on track to deliver 1,800 extra police. As that member is aware, we have now delivered on that commitment. I further stand by my commitments today that the best way to disrupt gang activity and the harm it causes is by resourcing the police and giving them the proper legislative tools to ensure they can effectively hold offenders to account, not knee-jerk, headline-grabbing slogans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6a223cc78dd4e71bd87fe1e3dda9486\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, like weak legislation. Does\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c80c20903905494d91e326f0fa5acdf7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Was that your question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022656fa0f91fca4c36b6cae937246273ee\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d52c3be3dedd42c7b3bdd440a9dd0dea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hmm, yeah, be careful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d8aafffd9774a998668f9faf8e09bb9\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister think that Kiwis feel safer when there have been five homicides in 17 days as a result of gang and gun violence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022add8934ad2a4436a881fbaec16d9cc18\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: The firearms offences of the past few weeks have been incredibly concerning\u2014in particular, the gang violence we have seen within our communities. However, the data does demonstrate that these are isolated events and not indicative of a broader trend. And if we go back through August over the past four years, the numbers are 10, 15, seven, and 14. This Government is doing more to reduce the harm caused by firearms than any other previous Government, including the banning of semi-automatic weapons in the wake of March\u00A015th, buying back more than 60,000 guns, introducing firearm prohibition orders, as well as establishing New Zealand\u2019s first digital firearms register. If that member was truly worried about the danger of firearms, he\u2019d talk to Christopher Luxon and convince him to make keeping it a bottom line for National. But he hasn\u2019t, and he won\u2019t keep that promise to front-line police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4624705c8d94d7e80c1db06b670d571\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that over 50 percent of Operation Cobalt charges relate to traffic infringement and admin offences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228375caa0d7be481fa9a64a8678dfd7ed\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m more than happy to provide a breakdown. Those 45,000 charges are varied, as well as the nearly 500 firearms seized that were illegally held by gang members. We continue to resource Operation Cobalt and I\u2019m incredibly surprised that that member does not support such an effective operation that cracks down on gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c19cb9014d9a49b2b5c1ce8dd33831b7\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very specific question around the Cobalt charges. The Minister said she was very happy to give us a breakdown of them, and then she didn\u2019t give us a breakdown of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ecbf4c30fff4b27a217661f6512cdf2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But she did address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223485a14e7a294e109ea00fb461f3fd62\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think Kiwis feel safer when ram raids have increased to two a day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d60e8914d04c4a5da76562ec1e53f267\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not happy with the rate of ram raids, but it has been pleasing to see over the past two months that they have continued to decrease and the figures for this month have decreased again from end year. This is a result of police working closely with groups such as Oranga Tamariki and really effective programmes like Kotahi te Whakaaro and Circuit Breaker that roughly see that about 82 percent of young people who go through those programmes do not reoffend. That\u2019s in stark contrast to that member\u2019s policy of boot camps, which sees 80 percent of those people who go through the programmes going on to offend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271e8310f56a64e8090de09fd880e6b7e\u0022\u003ENatural and Built Environment Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227953f230bd7a47d586c5f77f7d51aff5\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000583\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7adf3f3b7234696a8be9dc0f7f570cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7adf3f3b7234696a8be9dc0f7f570cc\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ll try and talk over the din here, but I am very pleased to be speaking on this third reading of the Natural and Built Environment Bill. It\u2019s a single environment\u2014at one point, it was going to be the environments bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhy I\u2019m so pleased to be speaking on this is because it\u2019s such a good piece of work\u2014as opposed to what the last speaker, Chris Bishop, was saying\u2014and it really deals with a lot of tricky issues that we haven\u2019t been able to fix with the Resource Management Act (RMA).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo some of those things that it does, I\u2019m going to talk about. It sets out the outcomes that it wants\u2014and these are similar to sections 6 and 7 in the RMA, but a little bit different. But there are many of these outcomes, and, of course, there will always be conflict between those outcomes. So it\u2019s very clear, in this piece of legislation\u2014particularly at clause 3A\u2014that there is to be a national planning framework. When the RMA was implemented, it was always supposed to have good national documents, but they didn\u2019t really come along for a long time, apart from the coastal policy statement. So the national planning framework is going to be there and it\u2019s going to really try and knock out some of the planning conflicts that you\u2019re always going to get in anything to do with planning law. Of course, though, the bill also has some environmental bottom lines, and the purpose clause we heard about from the previous speaker of te Oranga o te Taiao.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen there\u2019s the regional spatial plan. So, at the moment, New Zealand is pretty terrible at planning for infrastructure. We\u2019ll have these spatial plans\u2014that\u2019s in the next bill that I\u2019ll talk about separately, but that that\u2019s an important change as well. Then we\u2019re going to have the regional natural and built environment plans\u2014or the regulatory plans\u2014which are similar to the current RMA plans. That\u2019s where you look to see if you are going to need a resource consent or if you can or cannot do something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAt the moment, we\u2019ve got over 100 of those plans, both made by regional councils and by district councils or territorial authorities. Instead, we\u2019re just going to have one per region. You may be aware that we have some unitary authorities such as Auckland and Nelson, now Marlborough and Tasman, and Gisborne and Nelson and Tasman\u2014they\u2019re going to go together but Marlborough will go it alone. So we\u2019ll have many fewer plans for users to have to deal with, which is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOther changes from the RMA\u2014much stronger on climate change. It also links with the Climate Change Response Act and you see that and the outcomes that I just referred to. Also stronger on hazards\u2014and there is a national direction coming on those hazard provisions. I understand that there will be a national hazard planning framework and a national policy statement on natural hazard decision-making. So these will provide guidance to local government on how to consider natural hazard risk when making decisions on plan changes and resource consents. This is when they relate to new developments such as housing and infrastructure. The national policy statement is expected to limit new building in areas that are at very high risk from natural hazards, as well as require mitigations for areas at moderate risk. So the ministry is working on those at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ERelated to natural hazards and climate change, of course, are trees and green space, and the Environment Committee heard a lot about urban trees\u2014and I note that I\u2019m sitting next to one of my West Auckland colleagues, the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, and certainly a good number of her constituents made submissions about trees in the beautiful part of the world that she\u2019s from. Also, though, what we\u2019ve been thinking more about this year is the importance of green infrastructure and green spaces and the ability to soak up stormwater. We\u2019ve also, of course, been thinking about stormwater as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen changes from the select committee and in the Supplementary Order Paper during the committee of the whole House stage, so that the national planning framework (NPF) that I\u2019ve been talking about\u2014clause 58\u2014gives some other specific issues that the NPF can include, and that now includes trees and green space. Green space is not defined and, of course, the Ministry for the Environment will need to do some further work and thinking in that, but I encourage them to do that as well and as quickly as they can\u2014it\u2019s a very important issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso on green infrastructure, for designations now, accepted infrastructure as natural and green infrastructure is defined at clause 497 as \u201Cinfrastructure that uses natural systems such as plants or soil, or mimics natural processes, to avoid, minimise, or remedy the environmental impacts of activities\u201D. It\u2019s a very good step in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe heard from the previous speaker, citing many submissions that were opposed to the bill. Of course, there were many submissions that wanted changes to the bill\u2014I totally accept that point. But when talking particularly about renewable energy, there were many submissions saying that proposed short-term consent for hydroelectricity was going to cause problems for that sector of our economy and our energy production. This was amended by both the select committee and the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s a really important point to make\u2014that there\u2019s been a lot of listening, a lot of responding, and a lot of dialogue in the creation of this piece of legislation. It, of course, had a process with the Randerson review; it had an exposure draft; and then it had an extended select committee process as well. It\u2019s important legislation\u2014it deserves all of that. The previous speaker also said that it was naive to think that this piece of legislation would solve all the problems of the RMA and the planning world. But I think given that process, you cannot say that this is a naive piece of legislation, nor is it a naive idea to think that we can do better with our planning by doing better at both the national level and the regional level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI do accept, though, that implementation of it is incredibly important. That didn\u2019t happen with the RMA, as I just mentioned. We didn\u2019t have the national planning direction that was also always considered necessary for the good implementation of the RMA. There is money that\u2019s been budgeted for that in this implementation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIt will be done with some regions going first so that central government can work with them and work out what works well and what doesn\u2019t work so well, so when other regions roll out, we will learn from that implementation and do it as efficiently as possible. It\u2019s also crucial for that implementation that both the national planning framework and those regional plans\u2014both at the spatial level and the regulatory level\u2014do make those difficult trade-off decisions and take the community with them when they\u2019re doing that, which of course the bill provides for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s one of those days in life where, on a personal note, I wasn\u2019t sure that it would necessarily come, but it has come and I\u2019m very pleased to be standing here in front of you and commending it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022019f7a4e91a94da69fd6f5fcd1172bb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022019f7a4e91a94da69fd6f5fcd1172bb9\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. So here we are, on the third reading. It has been a very long process for this Natural and Built Environment Bill, and it actually goes way back before I started on the Environment Committee. There was an exposure draft earlier on. I joined this process in about the end of January or the start of February this year. It was a really interesting process when we looked at how we do things in our country as we went through the process of the cyclones. We were sitting there, in live timing, actually thinking about where the flooding in the Hawke\u2019s Bay had sat, where things had happened in West Auckland where there wasn\u2019t enough room for the water to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EWe wondered how, as humans in this world, we had got some things quite wrong over a period of time, to the point where there were a lot of people in this country who were going through personal suffering at the loss of their houses and their businesses. It wasn\u2019t particularly due to anyone\u2019s fault. It was just the way planning systems have worked. It has been in our rush to get housing built. I think that we all would agree that the old Resource Management Act process that we currently have is not actually working to full effect to protect either the environment or the people who live in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI think the big thing about this is that all of this work is hard. We\u2019re looking at an integrated statute for resource use. We\u2019ve got two bills at the moment: we\u2019ve got the Natural and Built Environment Bill, and then, coming up after this, the Spatial Planning Bill. They have to fit together. Then when we get the climate adaptation bill\u2014that has to fit in and lock in along with it. Alongside that, we\u2019re doing the Local Government Act Review, and the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill and the three waters, which is now 10 waters; there\u2019s a lot of stuff going on in this space. People want to be absolutely assured that whatever is put in place by whatever Government\u2014whatever colour it might be\u2014is going to work and that it is not going to, legally, be able to take years and years of, I guess, discussion going through the court system, as has been the case in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo it is hard, and there is a diagram in the legislative statement that was put up by the Minister this morning. So what we\u2019re taking into account, as we do this process, is the natural environment. Of course, we need development. We want the system to be efficient. We need climate adaptation and mitigation, and that certainly\u2014as I said before\u2014took up a lot of our conversations. Then of course, there\u2019s Te Tiriti and the m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori aspects of it all. So we\u2019ve got quite a neat little diagram here that looks at how we put the national planning framework into place, how the regional spatial strategies are going to fit with it along with the Natural and Built Environment Act plans, the consenting system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe Minister actually said in the House this morning, when he spoke, that there should be a 20 to 40 percent reduction in consent processing. Now, if all worked well, under this new piece of legislation, I think a lot of people would be hand clapping and going, \u201CThis is a really good idea\u201D. I think the questions that still stick in people\u2019s minds are: how is this going to work, and how is it all going to lock together? There\u2019s still quite a lot of question marks out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe good thing, from most people\u2019s perspective, is that this is actually now going to be a system which takes a shift from managing adverse effects to promoting positive outcomes. Personally, I\u2019ve long been a fan of catchments being able to do their own\u2014you know, we\u2019ve got to have a bottom baseline of where we want our water quality to be achieved, our land quality to be achieved, all of the things that go on in our catchment, our carbon sequestration, all the rest of it. We need to have a system where we know what the outcomes are that we want to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve had up till now is a system where we\u2019ve had so many regulations thrown at us, so that often, when people are looking at regulations, they don\u2019t know if the one that\u2019s coming down yesterday is going to complement or be contradictory to the one that is likely to come down tomorrow. I think that\u2019s what we\u2019ve done to people, not just in the farming community, but over a range of various business sectors. Everything is tied up in red tape. We\u2019ve never looked up\u2014very actively\u2014to see what the outcomes are going to be. So I think the change in mood and the intent of this bill is heading in the right direction in terms of people just wanting to get up in the morning, not wanting to tick millions of boxes\u2014so I hope certainly that that is going to be a really positive outcome of this piece of legislation\u2014but actually putting their work clothes on and going out to work, whether it be farm gumboots or whether it be some business that\u2019s undertaking a mining industry aspect. You know, if you can\u2019t dig it, graze it, extract it, or grow it, and it\u2019s not a fish, we really don\u2019t have it. I say that time and time again and I\u2019ve challenged lots of people in many rooms to give me something that doesn\u2019t fit in one of those categories. So the people that are undertaking those, as well as people who want to develop housing developments, as well as people just wanting to build their own house want to know, \u201CWhat is the outcome that is expected of me?\u201D rather than ticking a whole lot of boxes, which is something that has traditionally happened in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ELook, I know even in getting roads built\u2014I\u2019ve got Mount Messenger in my electorate, and it\u2019s good to see it\u2019s coming along. There are cranes everywhere. From the time it was put in the Budget process in 2016, it actually took six years to get that started. It\u2019s no wonder that we can\u2019t actually make some progress. There\u2019s still appeals going on, and there\u2019s still things happening in that place. So I think we have to get much more swept up in this space. So the intent of the bill is a good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EOne of the things I wanted to comment on\u2014and the last speaker, Rachel Brooking, actually alluded to it\u2014was hydro facilities of any size, which the Minister spoke about in the legislative statement and in his speech this morning. It has been amended by the select committee because it certainly was a real concern, for a country who wants to build much more renewable electricity, that for small hydro schemes it was looking like 10-year consenting was going to rule them out of the ballpark. It would mean that they would never start, because the banks wouldn\u2019t lend them the money. So it is good to see that this change has been made. Good projects like that will be looked on favourably in terms of where we take our renewable electricity work in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EWhat I would like to say in this third reading is that I think I spent something like 30 days in that select committee, and I know others spent a lot more time in that select committee than I did; I want to say that the process of that select committee was absolutely outstanding in terms of people being able to sit around the room, express their views. I have to give credit not just to the members of the select committee but also to the officials that came in from the Ministry for the Environment. Not every question or every change was able to be accommodated, but they certainly accommodated many things when they could and where they could. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI have to say that the chairmanship of the Hon Eugenie Sage and the members of that committee\u2014it was very open. It was very transparent. We worked well together. We started off by splitting people across into subcommittees, because we did have lots and lots and lots of submissions coming through. I think one of the key things was the hydroelectricity, renewable electricity. People were concerned about the purpose of the bill: te Oranga o te Taiao. We spent a lot of time working on defining that. Basically, if the environment is healthy, the people are healthy. The wellbeing of the environment actually leads to the wellbeing of the people. It\u2019s not a complicated thing to understand, but it does create lots of discussion. We want to make sure that that is absolutely in a good legal standing when it is introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI think the one big thing that locals still need to be convinced of\u2014we heard a lot about local voice and local input, and there\u2019s still a bit of concern that maybe, as we lock this system together, that won\u2019t be happening to the extent that they would like it. But I can certainly say that the process of the committee was a very intense and good one. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022980e6a590a5b493a94ac16c1e806b5e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022980e6a590a5b493a94ac16c1e806b5e0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m very happy to be able to take a short call on this momentous occasion as the Parliament ushers in this bill, which sits at the heart of the new planning system, one that I believe will serve this country well in the decades to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis Natural and Built Environment Bill, once it becomes an Act, will, I think, reflect and take into account many of the really important lessons around how we live with and in our natural environment. It reflects a stronger, more urgent desire that New Zealanders have today to protect our natural environment for future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s learnt many of the hard lessons from the last 30-odd years on how the planning system messed up our housing markets and made it really difficult for us to deliver enough quality, affordable housing for the people of this country. It seeks a lighter, more agile process. One of the very tough lessons of the Resource Management Act (RMA) era was that a heavy, slow, bureaucratic, and costly system dragged down people, both those who were wanting to protect the environment and those who were wanting to do things like build our towns and cities. It also reflects the contemporary desire for better and more M\u0101ori participation in the public life of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI believe this law will better protect the environment. The notion of environmental limits are at the heart of it, and I think about Te Wai o Pareira, the river that runs through the middle of my electorate in West Auckland, and how polluted it is not only by the failure to invest in decent infrastructure but by the failure of the planning system to protect the taonga that our community loves so much, but it has become so polluted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBy investing more time and energy in plan making, the democratic process of our communities and our institutions\u2014people coming together to plan what kind of development they want and what places in our country should be set aside and protected from development\u2014it will mean that we will have far more non-notifiable activities. There will be fewer consents needed, and that will result in significant cost savings for people, for businesses, and for the country as a whole. It will be a lighter, more agile system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ENational direction: through the national planning framework, which is central to this new law, we will have comprehensive and regularly updated national direction. One of the great failings of the RMA was that successive Governments failed to actually provide the national direction that that system was built around, and, as a result, we saw some terrible consequences, both environmentally and in terms of our built environment in the growth of our towns and cities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe planning that will be done by councils and their communities and mana whenua under the Natural and Built Environment Act will be collaborative. Development, transport corridors, water catchments, and regional economies pay no heed to the boundaries of local government, and that\u2019s why we are regionalising through this bill the planning process. It will force people to collaborate and to come together and to plan the kinds of environments and the towns and cities that they want. That is a huge step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EFinally, moving away from the approach of the RMA, which was of managing the effects of development, and towards a more deliberative and deliberate planning approach that will allow our communities to come together to say what kind of development they want and what kinds of places they want to protect is a move away from the neo-liberal thinking of the 1980s, which said, \u201CWe\u2019re going to manage the worst effects of development, and otherwise we\u2019re just going to let the market do everything.\u201D That hasn\u2019t worked, it was never going to work, and it was really at the root of many of the problems of the RMA. This bill, really, is in sync with the modern thinking that actually doesn\u2019t consider \u201Cplanning\u201D to be a dirty word. We know we can think together, we can plan and prioritise, and we can build the country that we want, and this bill gives us many of the tools to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the outstanding leadership and work of David Parker as the Minister for the Environment. This is a huge piece of work, and he has been right across it the whole time. He has shepherded it through and taken people along with him, and it\u2019s also important at this stage to recognise the professionalism and the talent of the Hon Eugenie Sage in chairing the Environment Committee, who also, I think, did a tremendous job on that. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022a104fbc2c0af44ce81cdb45e5fca205f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a104fbc2c0af44ce81cdb45e5fca205f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealanders agree on the problem to solve: the Resource Management Act (RMA) has failed New Zealand in the past 30-plus years. The Resource Management Act has been the single biggest handbrake on developing land for housing. It\u2019s made it harder to build warm, dry, and affordable homes. It\u2019s led to a range of social problems: people living in cars, but not just living in cars, people considering whether they want to move towns, move cities, or regions for a better job, and finding they can\u2019t find an affordable home that matches what their ability to pay is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe Resource Management Act has made it much more difficult to build transport infrastructure. In Auckland, I can think of a number of projects, including the East West Link, which still languish in the Supreme Court awaiting determinations; projects that are absolutely vital to get trucks off local roads, improve productivity, and allow people actually to get on with building businesses rather than wasting money on expensive consultants and RMA lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe RMA has resulted in less competition, even between supermarkets until recently\u2014higher prices for everything, lower productivity. If you can\u2019t build efficient roads what that means is trucks spend longer delivering materials to site or to supermarket\u2014we need to put more trucks on the road to achieve the same volume of work, it leads to traffic congestion and lower productivities. Ultimately, the Resource Management Act, and, I hate to say it, Minister Parker, for all the work you\u2019ve done, the replacement bill will only lead to an ongoing decline in standards of living. This is not going to work, because what Labour has done is take the advice of people with vested interests; the same lawyers and the same advisers who advised on the Resource Management Act back in the 1990s were the same people engaged to tell this Labour Government how to fix the Resource Management Act. And you know what happens when you let a fox into the hen house? It has a good old feast on the hens, and that\u2019s what\u2019s happened for the last five years of consultation on the RMA\u2014very, very disappointing for practitioners, for people like myself who have come from the building and construction sector, to see what Labour and what Minister Parker has delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to reform the resource management process\u2014the way we use land, the way we protect the places that are special to us\u2014but instead Labour has doubled down on some of the things that have frustrated development. It\u2019s extended the red tape. It\u2019s included metaphysical concepts in the Natural and Built Environment Bill, spiritual and animist concepts like Te Mana o te Wai. The purpose of the bill being to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao. It\u2019s a novel term. Lawyers told us at the Environment Committee that it could take a decade or more to unravel what that means. This bill includes undefined terms like \u201Cm\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D and \u201Ctikanga M\u0101ori\u201D. Well, you can go to court and ask a judge what it means, or the Minister might have agreed with me when I tabled an amendment to this bill at the committee stage that we could include a very simple definition of what traditional M\u0101ori knowledge is if that\u2019s what m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori means. But the Minister refused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill will carry over national policy instruments that have been one of the greatest handbrakes on moving on and developing productive land in New Zealand\u2014getting on with building. The freshwater plans, that national policy statement which defined three bulrushes in a paddock as a wetland\u2014three bulrushes in a paddock as a wetland\u2014is one of the national instruments that\u2019s going to be carried over with David Parker\u2019s enormous 1,000-page bill. Now, when I pointed out to the Minister that three bulrushes in a paddock are a wetland and getting consents to disturb a wetland was prohibited, the Minister belatedly, after 18 months, finally changed the definition of a wetland in that national policy statement. Eighteen months of quarry developments\u2014we depend on the aggregates, we depend on the sands and other materials to make concrete to build roads. Eighteen months of developments not able to get consent because the Minister accepted the advice from officials that three bulrushes in a paddock makes a wetland. All of that nonsense is being carried over in the Natural and Built Environment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ECounter-productive policy that slows New Zealand down costs money. The Infrastructure Commission made a good point in a recently released report: consenting alone, stacking up the documents to apply for consents, spending their time in court\u2014Environment Court, High Court, Supreme Court\u2014cost New Zealand infrastructure- and asset-owners $1.3 billion in the year that they assessed; $1.3 billion just to get consents, not to do the bat survey, not to put up the silt fence, not actually to sort out the traffic management\u2014$1.3 billion on consenting. Completely unacceptable. That is what is holding New Zealand back. This bill will make it worse, much worse, because it will take 10 years to work out what half of it means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what do we need to do? What could we have done differently? Well, a different policy approach that was rejected early on in the consultation by the Minister was to separate environmental protection of our special places from building and construction, from urban development, because it doesn\u2019t make any sense to apply the same environmental protection principles and approach and framework and tests to, say, somebody who wants to build a gondola up the side of Mount Cook as it does to somebody who wants to build an urban motorway through a paddock, or a subdivision. But that\u2019s what the RMA did with its integrated approach to land-use planning and environment with sustainable management, that 30-plus-year failed experiment. The Natural and Built Environment Bill, which will soon become law, doubles down on that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat would ACT do differently? Well, we would say it\u2019s time for a radical reset. When I came to Parliament, I gave a maiden speech. I said I\u2019m not here to just cruise along with the status quo. I said I was a radical environmentalist, and that\u2019s because we need to take a radical approach if we want to solve the problems of environmental damage and pollution and loss of biodiversity. We need a separate environmental protection Act that just focuses on environmental improvement and we need a separate urban development Act so we can get on with building infrastructure that actually allows our cities to grow, allows our regions to be connected to ports, to workers, and to markets. ACT would do that through our proposal for building New Zealand and conserving nature. You can find it on act.org.nz. We spent 18 months researching this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a566f44c614248e98414fab9f7d187f4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Court\u2014d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu. You know where to go\u2014back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a364f65d72bc4f36ba018a66b2043c20\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The opportunities that this bill neglected were actually to change the focus; instead of having more people decide how you use your land, to go back to the principles of common law and private property rights. So the presumption should be not that we have to beg for permission from a planning tribunal or from a judge, but instead we have the right to use our land as long as we don\u2019t affect our neighbours or discharge to the commons. Now, there are different ways to regulate discharges to the commons, like to fresh water or to air, than having to apply for permits over and over. The Natural and Built Environment Bill will soon become law and will still require people to get consents and permits for things that they can simply cut and paste from a code of practice. What ACT would say and what the Infrastructure Commission said in advice they gave to the Minister when preparing this bill, is that 80\u00A0percent of consents are unnecessary because we already know how to carry out those functions. That\u2019s why ACT would say, \u201CLet\u2019s avoid all the consenting nonsense, and for common activities\u2014in fact, all of those except for the most high risk in the most sensitive environments\u2014you shouldn\u2019t have to get consents at all\u201D. ACT can reduce the cost of consenting permitting under any type of resource management law from the $1.3 billion a year to a fraction of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, what are the opportunities to come? Well, this bill will be passed. Councils will have to face this problem of how they implement something not knowing whether it will proceed. In fact, most likely it won\u2019t because there will be a change of Government, and a Government that involves ACT has an alternative solution. So all of this transition cost, all of this wasted effort, all of this five years may be lost\u2014or it won\u2019t, because all the good advice we have will go into ACT\u2019s policy prescription for resource management reform. Look forward to sharing it with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002291f568391f62403b8271791b54b1f15b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291f568391f62403b8271791b54b1f15b\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Very pleased to take a call on the Natural and Built Environment Bill. Some people have said that the Labour Government has not been transformative, yet this area of resource management law has required tremendous leadership by the Minister, the Hon David Parker\u2014and supported by the Associate Minister for the Environment, Rachel Brooking\u2014to actually initiate this reform and to pursue it because of the huge complexity. As the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment said, and I quote, \u201CComplexity in legislation of this nature is inevitable. The environment we live in is not simple. It intersects with everyone\u2019s property rights. There are many interdependencies between property owners as well as many spillovers from their use of environmental resources. The natural environment also goes to the core of M\u0101ori identity. Any attempt to manage these frictions or conflicts, whether through regulations or markets, will involve complexity and demand high levels of specialist expertise.\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s what we\u2019ve had in terms of the Minister\u2019s leadership of this reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOthers\u2014National and ACT\u2014say that they\u2019re just going to jettison it, but they do not provide any detail of what they\u2019re going to put in its place, and I would contrast the tub-thumping bluster of Mr Bishop\u2019s speech with the much more measured contribution of Barbara Kuriger, who sat on many, many days of submissions and hearings on the select committee and who was recognising that there is a need for change and some of the ways that change would improve things. So we have, on the one hand, what could have been cross-party agreement around this bill\u2014there was the kernel of that in Barbara Kuriger\u2019s speech\u2014and yet we have the political positioning we have seen from National and ACT in opposing the bill from its first reading and not being prepared to engage in the changes that were needed in response to submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ECan I record again thanks to all of those individuals, organisations, councils, iwi, hap\u016B, environmental organisations, and others who made submissions. The bill was substantially changed through the parliamentary select committee process because of those submissions. I acknowledge other members of the Environment Committee, the secretariat, Parliamentary Counsel Office, and everyone else in the Ministry for the Environment and all of the mahi that was put into that process. I think it\u2019s easy to say \u201CWe\u2019ll repeal the bill\u201D, but why turn one\u2019s back on all of that effort? The bill, in the time that it\u2019s been available in Parliament, is the best that it could be. Land users, councils, and others all need certainty. Passing this bill and making it clear what the new legislation is the best course from here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe bill certainly still has shortcomings from the Greens\u2019 perspective. We think the infrastructure override provisions, in relation to places of national importance and areas of highly vulnerable biodiversity value, are too broad. We think that the Minister has too many powers and they are still not adequately constrained. The fast-track provisions endure despite the legislation purporting to be a more efficient process, and there\u2019s inadequate recognition and protection of regionally and locally important landscapes. But it is the best that could be done in the time available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s the debate over the purpose clause\u2014clause 3\u2014to uphold te Oranga o Te Taiao, which \u201Cenables the use and development of the environment in a way that promotes the wellbeing of present and future generations.\u201D subject to this being achieved \u201Cin a way that\u2014(a) protects the health of the natural environment;\u201D. It\u2019s that debate which has really been the nub of the issue, because we\u2019ve seen from ACT that it just wants to get rid of any planning process and any consenting process, and we\u2019ve seen from National that they do not recognise that the economy is a subset of the environment. To National, the environment is just something to exploit to promote more revenue generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo this bill, with its focus on that purpose, and with the 18 outcomes beneath that purpose, is about driving towards more positive outcomes. It is with the recognition, as the Randerson review did, that the Resource Management Act (RMA) has really failed the natural environment. We\u2019ve seen that with increasing loss of indigenous vegetation cover, the indigenous biodiversity crisis, and the declining quality of our waterways. So, yes, there will be litigation around clarifying the purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt does incorporate a Te Ao M\u0101ori perspective. That, I think, is really important in this place of Aotearoa, because M\u0101ori have recognised for generations that humans are part of nature, not separate from it; we have an intrinsic relationship with it and that all parts of the environment\u2014te taiao\u2014are interconnected. For the first time, we are trying to put that into the purpose of legislation. It is fundamental to who we are in Aotearoa and to our environmental management law, and it also is the basis for much improved participation by M\u0101ori in the way our environmental law works, particularly through the representation of mana whenua on the regional planning committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe 18 outcomes: there were a lot of submissions about the lack of priority here. There is potentially still a concern that the lack of priority in the legislation and the competition between the outcomes could go back to that overall broad judgment approach which has been problematic under the RMA, but the national planning framework has a critical role here in doing that prioritisation and giving recognition to key outcomes. Some of those new outcomes are absolutely fundamentally important, particularly in relation to climate change. We\u2019re seeing severe weather events happening at an unprecedented rate and having to contend with those, so the outcomes in clause 5 around reducing greenhouse gas emissions so that we meet our targets in the Climate Change Response Act, and to reduce the risks arising from natural hazards and the effects of climate change are really important, particularly as the bill does enable some encroachment on existing use rights where there are provisions in regional plans to ensure that we meet those outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere will be a lot of work done on environmental limits and targets. We hope to see quite a few of those in the national planning framework, including those in the current national policy statement for freshwater management. It\u2019s been the lack of targets and limits that has been problematic under the RMA until last term, Minister Parker strengthened the national policy statement on freshwater and it was no longer the tissue-paper document that it had been under National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere are new provisions that will be in the national planning framework\u2014and the Green Party pushed hard for these\u2014around urban trees. I heard Chris Bishop talking about the bill being far too pro-environment, yet it has been incredibly hard to get recognition of urban trees in the legislation despite that being a major public concern. We finally did, and through a very late Supplementary Order Paper, we ensured that the first national planning framework will provide guidance on urban trees, because urban trees and green spaces, and the whole concept of \u201Cspongy cities\u201D and using nature and green infrastructure as part of the solution to climate change is increasingly important. It is very cost-effective, it adds to urban amenity, and now that there\u2019s this reference to urban trees and green spaces, there will be direction in the national planning framework around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI totally agree with the comments by the Hon Phil Twyford about planning, the need for a very effective planning process, and the value of planning, but there does need to be a major change in planning culture to get rid of the turgid, waffly, very lengthy plans that we have where people have to get consultants in to actually understand them. There is a requirement around succinctness and plain English in the bill, and I really hope that this occurs in the cost-benefit analysis and the evaluation report, and that this also is driven through into the plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThis has been a massive exercise, and it is now going through its final stages in the Parliament. I hope that it delivers improved outcomes for te taiao as the basis for a healthy society and a healthy economy, and congratulate all of those\u2014particularly the Minister, officials in the ministry, submitters, Parliamentary Counsel Office, and the select committee staff and members for the mahi that has gone into this. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u002216a0bb07a0174f33a0d8af0537316feb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216a0bb07a0174f33a0d8af0537316feb\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is an utter pleasure to stand here today and to speak on this bill. It has taken such a lot of time in this term to go through, so before I thank members etc., I want to just talk about the fact that we consulted on the exposure draft as an inquiry in 2021, so those members on the Environment Committee have been sitting with this process for a long time. We had the Randerson review land in July 2019 and we began our work there, and then, of course, we had the Natural and Built Environment Bill come to us. We have spent many, many, many months working on this piece of legislation, but rightly so because it has been 32\u00A0years since there was a proper and actual review that needed to occur across the whole system. We have carved up, cut out, and added to the Resource Management Act in too many ways for that piece of legislation to effectively protect our environment, so I\u2019m really delighted to be here speaking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge, as others have, the stellar chairing by the Hon Eugenie Sage, who had the foresight to work with us all in such an amazing way to ensure that we all kept talking. She was completely over the detail of every submission and was such a valuable chairperson. We are very lucky to have had her in our select committee and I\u2014we\u2019ve all said it, but actually this is 1,000 pages of legislation that she knows every word of. So I do want to acknowledge that, and I would also like to acknowledge the Minister David Parker for the collaborative work that he did across the community as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThis bill does something that very simply\u2014very simply, we have moved from a Resource Management Act to a Natural and Built Environment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0fb4354ae0648b790fe8808f06cd427\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What does that mean? Explain it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022030371c773324634b688b84fcb4c7fb7\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: This means that we have put the environment back into our legislation. We have put the environment at the front of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d5a16d8bf4648ebb628d349e2edcb51\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Environmental protection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ab4a2ea9a1b482f8d9f5f00d5401b1a\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I won\u2019t say it again, but that\u2019s what it has done. So we are incredibly\u2014on this side of the House, this is a piece of work that we have been working extremely hard for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd5ced27e0a848eba6817005474ba415\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: [Walks toward exit] I\u2019m wasting my time with you lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220326568e7cd04d4896bc5d244483d27c\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m extremely proud of the fact that we have got this across the line, and as a consequence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7f73e0a179c4b6d89a992b9bb726317\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Court!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d7efee8dec0436e897913b471e42f23\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b40749acca746a0bdcb8ae9b75fcb68\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, you do not make gratuitous comments while you\u2019re walking. You will go back to your seat, and you will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267061fc475a34e7498214d7be68fd434\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: [Returns to seat] I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a3e9fc3901b44c4b61ebfe6a053f037\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Now make a nice, quiet, dignified exit please. Can I just add that time? Add another minute to the speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9de70ce686a4fd5a5187e69c76c689b\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Another minute? Thank you, sir. I\u2019m actually just about to take my seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EBut what I do want to say is that I\u2019m incredibly proud of our Government for doing this piece of work. We have done it on behalf of the people of this country. Each and every person who has ever worked under the Resource Management Act has found some difficulties, and we\u2019re fixing them. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022a15a815f91034698a545ca1941769d8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a15a815f91034698a545ca1941769d8e\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m honoured to present on this third reading of the Natural and Built Environment Bill. National supports Resource Management Act reform but it should improve the status quo. In my view, this bill does not do that. I respect Minister Parker and the select committee for their mahi. There are some parts that are progressive and interesting but, in my view, ultimately flawed\u2014flawed culturally, commercially, and constitutionally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s purpose, to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao, demonstrates the vacuous drafting at play. That a M\u0101ori-sounding concept such as te Oranga o te Taiao can guide decision making is commendable. In this Chamber, defining these concepts implores caution and integrity, particularly when the concept is actually new to M\u0101ori communities. The definition proffered around te Oranga o te Taiao is near Picasso-esque: a thing of mysterious beauty that not many if any really understand. It reminds me of my fourth form art work down at central Hawke\u2019s Bay. In my opinion, the use of a M\u0101ori phrase here, defined by ambiguous English language, is a boondoggle drafting experiment. There is an absence of hierarchy across the constituent parts of the definition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s an absence of direction for those who invest across territorial and marine environments, including M\u0101ori who have a relationship with te taiao based on whakapapa and an aspiration to do something, like aquaculture in Whakat\u014Dhea, goldmining in Tara Tokanui, and corporate dairy farming like Wairarapa Moana and Parininihi ki Waitotara Incorporations. These absences, which are nearly as provocative as absences across our schooling system, have caused many diverse commentators to raise their concerns: the Chief Justice, Helen Winkelmann; Federated Farmers; and the Environmental Defence Society, who commented that the purpose of this legislation is wrapped up in word soup that allows fertile ground for litigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EClause 5 demonstrates legislative cubism, where the bill sets out system outcomes that must be achieved to ensure that the purpose of the Act is achieved. Clause 5(10) provides that one of the system outcomes is as follows, \u201CThe relationship of iwi and hap\u016B, and the exercise of their kawa, tikanga M\u0101ori (including kaitiakitanga), and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori in respect of their ancestral lands, water, sites, w\u0101hi tapu, w\u0101hi t\u016Bpuna, and other taonga, are recognised and provided for.\u201D But on questioning during the committee of the whole House the Minister was ill-prepared and unable to define what \u201Ckawa, tikanga\u201D constitute. Time and again that question was asked, and what did I get? Crickets. I\u2019ll tell you what, I\u2019ll probably get the same crickets from the former Minister of Conservation\u2014their epistemological foundations, their practical implementation, and their interface with one another are not known by the decision makers let alone applicants and the entire bench.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EWe should have kept our three w\u0101nanga here today to help us and guide us as to what they actually mean. We will definitely need our pyjamas for that conversation, though, because w\u0101nanga, as the member for Manurewa knows, best happen beyond the hours of urgency that the House holds. It is absolutely outrageous that the Minister and the select committee chair cannot define what kawa, tikanga, and mana mean but are eager beavers to throw it into the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EAbsence again features in this clause\u2014an absence of hierarchy between kawa and mana, tikanga and m\u0101tauranga. There is an absence of direction around what kawa is important and whose kawa? Ng\u0101ti Toa? Ng\u0101puhi? T\u016Bhoe? Or te wh\u0101nau of Waipareira? There is an absence of clarity. Our constitutional Westminster system has a number of foundational principles and the rule of law is the central poutokomanawa of all of them. In this moment, in this third reading, that rule of a law and legal certainty is immeasurably compromised. We\u2019ve thrown more coals on the fire of legal activism, and for what? Another tick on the Government\u2019s insatiable long list on omniscient k\u0101wanatanga aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EMinister Parker has described that National and others might have fiddled around the edges to reform the resource management system. This conclusion, I would recommend, is myopic. It makes cubism seem like basic art. Even the Green Party, fortunately, knows the only way to get genuine green outcomes is through blue. To suggest that the Treaty provision, now effectively similar to section 4 of the Conservation Act, will give clarity and stimulation is completely at odds with the actions of the current Government and the former Minister of Conservation, which failed at nearly every single step to implement genuine partnership with Ng\u0101i Tai ki Tamaki in the Hauraki Gulf\u2014the very iwi who sought and achieved favourable Supreme Court guidance regarding that clause. Instead, the young minds, the young talent, the young brilliance of M\u0101ori working out there in the tribal domain end up in judicial review and litigation processes instead of developing the socio-economic wealth and wellbeing we desperately need. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u00224289b91903fc4f9b8698bb02f8b37200\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224289b91903fc4f9b8698bb02f8b37200\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I always love a bill where we get to quote economists\u2014yay. It\u2019s a good day\u2014a good day in the House. As we know, economics is fundamentally about the systems that we use to allocate our resources, right? You know, who gets to decide what we do with our stuff? Do we use it, do we transform it, do we protect it, and who gets to benefit from that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EIn recent years, we\u2019ve seen a shift away, more and more, from those decisions being driven by the market and being driven by an insatiable desire for growth. The Resource Management Act was an attempt to try and help manage the damage that was done by allowing our resource decisions to be made by the market, fundamentally. We\u2019ve seen shifts in the ways economists think and sociologists think, and Treasury\u2014we can see, as they\u2019ve incorporated our living standards framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThis bill is another piece that helps us to shift fundamentally from a growth-led to a sustainability-led economy. It\u2019s quite exciting. It enables us to fundamentally shift the way we operate our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EStudents of modern-day economics\u2014not those of us who studied when Mr Gekko was around in the last millennium\u2014would have heard of Kate Raworth and her concepts that she introduces in Doughnut Economics. She talks about us living between where we\u2019ve got fundamental social foundations that are strong and healthy and an ecological ceiling, and we have to try and live within that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThis bill helps. The intention\u2014the collaboration that was required to tackle such a complex problem is evident. We\u2019ve heard about the years of reviews and consultation and engagement and the changes that were made at select committee, and that collaboration is valued by those of us who, luckily, just got to sit outside and watch this massive piece of work being done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to finish by quoting Kate Raworth. She says, \u201CToday we have economies that need to grow, whether or not they make us thrive. What we need are economies that make us thrive, whether or not they grow.\u201D And so I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002281bb9e1540224cf8a7accec9006ee8cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281bb9e1540224cf8a7accec9006ee8cf\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I am very glad to have a call on the Natural and Built Environment Bill, which is a great bill because this has been a long time coming and this reform is something that Minister Parker and the Ministers involved in this can be extremely proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EFrom the beginning, Cabinet, since 2020, has been committed to an objective for these reforms being to give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and to better recognise Te Ao M\u0101ori, including m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. I am going to use my time today to clarify three of the objectives which were subject to much discussion in the committee of the whole House and in speeches that have been given today. They are, first, te Oranga o te Taiao; second, Te Titiri o Waitangi clause; and, third, the National M\u0101ori Entity and its role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EFirst let me take you to te Oranga o te Taiao. It was very simply summarised\u2014and well summarised, I thought\u2014in the speech of Barbara Kuriger when she said, basically, if the environment is healthy, the people are healthy. It\u2019s not complicated. And I appreciated that, because I think that\u2019s something that all New Zealanders can understand and appreciate. Te Oranga o te Taiao is a concept drawn from Te Ao M\u0101ori and indigenous understandings of the environment, but those are not at odds with the modern demands of how we must care for our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EUpholding te Oranga o te Taiao is the purpose of this law. The concept has been deliberately developed to be an environmental ethic for all people in Aotearoa. Better recognising Te Ao M\u0101ori results in better outcomes in our planning system and for all New Zealanders. Te Oranga o te Taiao is defined in clause 3 of the bill and the definition reflects what the Resource Management Review Panel called the fundamental truth accepted in all communities\u2014that the health and wellbeing of people is dependent on the health and wellbeing of the taiao.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESome members raised questions about te Oranga o te Taiao being a new term in the legislation and that that would therefore create uncertainty. We\u2019ve heard hyperbole from the other side today about the number of lawyers, the many years tied up in litigation. But as the Minister, David Parker, dealt with in the committee of the whole House, he said even if we had kept the old Resource Management Act (RMA) purpose clause, this still would have been interpreted differently because this legislation creates a new planning framework. It would be unrealistic to create a new planning framework and then expect the courts to interpret the words in the same way. The idea that there can be significant resource management reform without the courts interpreting the words used, whatever the words are, is simply incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe bill, as discussed in the committee of the whole House, provides clauses to assist with the clarity and certainty of te Oranga o te Taiao as well. I\u2019ve heard questions from the other side of the House today about the way that the hierarchy works. The good news is that the bill is set out in a way which assists ordinary people to understand how to implement it. The purpose, like the purpose of all pieces of legislation, does not stand alone. Unlike the RMA, the key means of achieving this purpose are coherently set out. This is in clause 3A of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EUpholding te Oranga o te Taiao will be achieved through these means, in line with the approach outlined in King Salmon. There is a cascade of instruments that will progressively provide more detail on upholding te Oranga o te Taiao, from the legislation to the national planning framework to regional spatial plans to plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also note that clause 3(2) of the bill sets out very clearly that upholding te Oranga o te Taiao must be achieved in a way which protects the health of the natural environment, and that subject to this\u2014subject to this\u2014it must be achieved in a way that enables use and development of the environment. That is clear: there is a clear hierarchy of priorities. I want to underscore that the Ao M\u0101ori worldview does not see rigid distinctions between environmental protection and use of the environment, and both are provided for in this legislation. As Minister Parker outlined in his speech, protecting our environment and fostering responsible development are not mutually exclusive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ELet me then bring us to Te Tiriti o Waitangi clause. I want to speak about how this clause is the same in both the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill. It requires all persons exercising powers and performing functions and duties to give effect to the principles of Waitangi. You might be familiar with those words, \u201Cgive effect to the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D, because they are what\u2019s used in the Conservation Act and they have been in effect in that Act since 1987. They are not new words to our court system and to the lawyers who use them or to the developers and people who use our natural environment. The give-effect weighting to the Treaty clause is important because it\u2019s been tested in the courts, but it is a strong weighting and it sends a strong signal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe courts have said that \u201Cgive effect to\u201D simply means implement. On the face of it, it is a strong directive, creating a firm obligation on the part of those subject to it, and the question is: why is that important? In over 15 reports of the Waitangi Tribunal, they have found that the RMA falls short of the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and that M\u0101ori interests guaranteed under Te Tiriti are balanced out under the RMA. Importantly, most submitters at every step of this nearly four-year reform have asked for a \u201Cgive effect to the Treaty\u201D clause. This is well-supported change and it will help ensure M\u0101ori interests are no longer balanced out in the resource management system. It\u2019s an important step forward for our system as a whole, and I believe that it will deliver better outcomes for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ELet me then turn to my third point, which is the National M\u0101ori Entity. It\u2019s the last mechanism that I wanted to speak about, and it\u2019s an independent statutory entity. What\u2019s important to note here is that the entity doesn\u2019t take over the role of iwi, hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori in the system, nor is it a substitute for those relationships which already exist between the Crown and M\u0101ori. The role of the entity is to add an additional support for the roles of iwi and M\u0101ori provided under these bills. The mana of iwi, hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori is not usurped by the entity. Its primary function is set out in clause 30ZH of the bill, and its function is to monitor whether or not the resource management system is giving effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe entity will develop and publish a framework for this monitoring function and regularly monitor those who will be required to give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti under the Natural and Built Environment Act and Spatial Planning Act. It\u2019s an important step within this process and when viewed with those first two things that I\u2019ve spoken about. It\u2019s also an opportunity to support decision makers to continuously improve how they give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, because, as we\u2019ve experienced with the RMA, the expectations of people change and our decision makers need to evolve their decisions too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn summary, the bill provides important mechanisms for meeting the Government\u2019s objectives: that the reforms give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and better recognise Te Ao M\u0101ori. The new and improved roles for M\u0101ori provided by the bills support the roles in resource management that successive Governments have agreed with iwi, and these are things that all Governments of all colours need to continue to support. These reforms will deliver real benefits for New Zealanders, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m glad to have had a call on this bill and to support it today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00226c03d4621e164af9939f2f058b1ce3df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c03d4621e164af9939f2f058b1ce3df\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak on the Natural and Built Environment Bill. What we\u2019ve heard is quite a bit of passion from both sides of the House. I think one thing that anyone listening to this debate can be certain of is that everyone in the House cares for the environment. What we\u2019re hearing is a contest of ideas\u2014a contest of principles in which we should approach the management of the natural and built environment. We should not be afraid of that. We\u2019re about to go through a contest of ideas when the House rises on 31 August through to 14\u00A0October. Not agreeing on something is healthy, actually. If we all agreed on it, probably the bar is not high enough, I would suggest, or it\u2019s too woolly to worry about. The member who just took her seat, Arena Williams; I don\u2019t agree with everything that she said but I cannot for a moment question her passion on this idea, and I think that\u2019s great\u2014it\u2019s fantastic. But also, equally, my ACT colleague earlier also spoke with great passion with a diametrically opposed point of view, and I don\u2019t think that\u2019s an unhealthy thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI have not had the pleasure of being on the Environment Committee through the hearing of all the evidence for these bills, but I do want to take a moment to acknowledge the chair of the select committee Eugenie Sage\u2019s herculean efforts to steer the select committee through that process, and all the other permanent members on that select committee, because it was a heck of a job. What a pity, after all that work, to have almost 1,000 pages of a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) dumped on the Table, which really I think was a kick in the teeth really.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022998aa4d27291483f8ce3fb587bf13dfd\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true\u2014that\u2019s just not correct. It was done at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6635f4b16d24e5b93935bf8459dfc0a\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the Minister has had his turn. And I think that that SOP is just too much to bear. The exposure draft\u2014I did go through that exercise\u2014was also futile because there were so many empty clauses that meant nothing really; they were all placeholders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo we heard evidence\u2014a lot of it actually quite prescient when we went on to find what the bill was and warned against the very things that we have in the bill. For example, the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014what does that mean? And we actually asked\u2014and I was present when that was asked, I\u2019m pretty sure, I do remember that\u2014the officials: \u201CWhat are the principles, then?\u201D And they said, \u201CWell, they\u2019re evolving.\u201D That is the issue that, time after time, we did hear, and we asked many questions of the Minister in the chair: \u201CWhat does that mean? How is that going to be interpreted by the courts? How is that going to be interpreted when there is no actual definition?\u201D What we heard, actually, in the Environment Committee on another matter referring to the same issue from a constitutional lawyer was that, actually, the law has a principle in that the law should be known by all\u2014should be known by all. You don\u2019t have to know it, but you should be able to know it. And what we have riddled throughout this bill are principles and references that are unknowable at the moment\u2014for example, the principles of the Treaty, because they are evolving. The previous speaker said that referring and giving effect to the Treaty was great\u2014that was fantastic. Well, the Treaty ceded sovereignty in article 1, and then it conferred property rights, and then in the third article of the Treaty it gave equal citizenship. Well, no one can disagree with that. We should just do that anyway. So what is the argument here and why that\u2019s in the Natural and Built Environment Bill I\u2019m not sure. We don\u2019t know because we didn\u2019t get any explanation. We asked the Minister time and again\u2014didn\u2019t get a thing out of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWe heard before that the bill was going to put the environment at the centre and at the front. Well, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s ever not been, quite frankly. To think that this is novel, I think, is not actually all that relevant. Values and actual thoughts and what is thought to be the right thing evolve over time. I\u2019ll give you an example of that. In south Marlborough, it was thought by the Forest Service at the time and the catchment board that the best thing to do was to spread Pinus contorta around to stop the erosion of the hill country in south Marlborough, which has now turned into an absolute environmental disaster. So having the environment as their cause was why those Pinus contorta seeds were actually planted\u2014some of them right up above the bush line, as you know, I\u2019m sure, Madam Speaker, because you\u2019ve been there. And that has caused a huge environmental disaster today. Further, conifers were advised by the catchment board to be planted to stop rabbits\u2014unbelievably today. It actually gave a better environment for rabbits to thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo having the environment at the centre might sound great, but that\u2019s not actually the end point. You\u2019ve actually got to weigh things up; over time things change. This bill does nothing to improve on that. I think my colleague Chris Bishop put it pretty well when he talked about the fact that there\u2019s so much work going into this, we\u2019ve got to stick to it and carry on. He said it\u2019s the sunk cost fallacy, and I think that\u2019s absolutely right. There\u2019s a lot of effort gone into this and, undoubtedly, the officials are beavering away at the moment on the assumption that this bill\u2019s going to pass, and, unfortunately, it will. It will, but it won\u2019t last long. Should we win the election on 14 October, it will be gone by Christmas. We\u2019ve given that undertaking, and rightly so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EAnd we do see a way forward. All the members on the other side have to do is look towards our Electrify NZ policy, which shows how to deal with resource management in terms of renewable energy, which we\u2019re all in favour of. By the way, Contact Energy said this bill, should it pass, will make it much harder to build renewable energy. The New Zealand Wind Energy Association also said it would be much harder to build\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022441f8a05f66c4bab8c928dcc53444a32\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7174dfc20c34592a21e85ba773c51a7\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014renewable energy under this legislation. Well, the Minister says \u201CRubbish\u201D. He\u2019s such an expert\u2014he\u2019s such an expert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257f76c5145114f40be0630a653efc601\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: The fast track applies to wind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250df83393cec49e89f5e70fb1874109e\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: And the fast track\u2014how fast is that? Pretty slow as it turns out\u2014in one year under our policy. All of these experts have looked at it and they actually have all dismissed the Minister\u2019s claims. I think the Chief Justice had something to say about that. What did the Chief Justice say? Was that a ringing endorsement? No it wasn\u2019t. He said it was going to be a very difficult bill to navigate, and quite rightly so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb9de9bf2dea4ac49d56bcc12e68bc36\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Are you calling the Chief Justice a \u201Chim\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e5df5a3343b4b40a0330441d3326598\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re now complaining about the Chief Justice. Well, you can\u2019t have it both ways. It\u2019s a contest of ideas and, unfortunately, some people are afraid of a contest of ideas, perhaps because of the weakness of their own argument, I can\u2019t possibly say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts said that the growth led to sustainability and ecological certainty. I\u2019m paraphrasing; I\u2019m not quite sure exactly what she said but along those lines. Sure, we\u2019re in favour of environment. Our resources are limited, but they are not that limited that we can\u2019t have a small impact on the environment. And under this principle of the bill, it says that we must protect the natural environment. We\u2019ve heard from legal experts that that is such a high test we\u2019re going to be tied up in court for decades and it\u2019s going to take 10 years to come into effect anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI think this bill is a wasted opportunity. I commend the Minister for having a crack, but he went down the wrong track right at the beginning with the wrong principles. He\u2019s wasted a lot of time and energy, and, unfortunately, when this bill passes, it will trigger a series of court cases that will go for many decades. The legal profession\u2014actually, I thought they\u2019d be delighted, but they\u2019re not, because they end up having to defend people and try and get their clients\u2019 projects across the line. And with all the uncertainty, no one will know where it\u2019s going to go and how much it\u2019s going to cost, and it is just a needless waste of this House\u2019s time. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u0022df1d06ddd2484e79bf142df325dc1f03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df1d06ddd2484e79bf142df325dc1f03\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s great to be the final speaker, and it\u2019s quite a privilege to speak on the Natural and Built Environment Bill in the third reading. I firstly want to acknowledge the Environment Committee members who worked tirelessly and also the officials from the different ministries. We worked for months, we had many, many meetings. I also want to acknowledge the chair, Eugenie Sage, who shifted us through collectively. We worked well to read the 2,945 written submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWe went the breadth of Aotearoa to hear the over 340 oral submissions and it was very helpful because I was a new member on the select committee. It was very helpful that over a period of months, listening to the current Resource Management Act legislation and reading about the new reforms, working with a planning approach, hearing communities from various local councils, but also industry experts who spoke on their written submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EOne of the biggest features that I heard was the 100 current plans that will be moving to the new system under the Natural and Built Environment Bill to 16 regional spatial plans. It was helpful to understand that they will be phased over time. There were a number of recommended changes that were technical to improve the workability of the specific bill, especially to help the committee to be able to read it better. There was a lot of time spent with officials improving that, and I do want to acknowledge our Minister, David Parker, as well because he helped the select committee to understand the fundamentals of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWe also heard about the failures of the current Resource Management Act throughout Aotearoa and why it is very important that this bill improves the environment, because currently what we heard was that under the Resource Management Act things are too costly and they take too long to improve. It was helpful to listen to submitters who raised a number of issues around rivers, around landscapes. It was helpful to hear from iwi, M\u0101ori, and hap\u016B, on those features around the motu, fresh water, the concerns about infrastructure, and also around consenting and system users who provided analysis and development. It was also helpful to hear from the very busy building and construction industry and also from experts in the electrical industry. And there are a number of tricky issues that we heard about that the new legislation, when passed, will help with in the national planning framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe new limits of the nationwide policy: it is intended that those will have moderate risks, it was helpful to understand that, and specifically what was in front of us was the climate change challenges that we have in Aotearoa, thinking about green infrastructure, stormwater, and productive land. And we saw that in January when the severe weather events hit Aotearoa. So, lots of meetings, lots of k\u014Drero; there\u2019s a big journey around what this means to Aotearoa. We heard from many councils throughout around why local voices are very, very important to be part of the regional spatial strategies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ETherefore, the Natural and Built Environment Bill has fundamental framework limits and will help in a fail-safe way to reset the environment that takes into account biodiversity, and, specifically, improvements nationwide. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d77b5fd48bbc453eb36a3c34d5226ddf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Natural and Built Environment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000706\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c031cc7176d4481e981f92b71db0d2e2\u0022\u003ESpatial Planning Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002284a28670c0f647d5aec653a530142c0c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022952b729bbd88466787e26557eeea7e32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022952b729bbd88466787e26557eeea7e32\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Spatial Planning Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1d5ad2830e945e5a0ca25c10b543900\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dfec2547f164fae92ae7295a0aaf362\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Spatial Planning Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Spatial Planning Bill is an important part of the new RM system\u2014resource management system\u2014and it works in tandem with the Natural and Built Environment Act that the House has just passed. The Spatial Planning Bill has a single function: the creation and implementation of integrated regional spatial strategies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ETime and again, through the RM reform process, we\u2019ve been told by developers, environmentalists, councils, that the absence of regional planning is a major problem in the current system. It was also a strong theme in submissions to the Environment Committee. Those who want more predictability and less uncertainty think we need better regional spatial plans to identify where trunk infrastructure and the like should go, what land should be next released for development, what areas are not suited for development. There\u2019s a lot of time and money currently being wasted as wheels spin on these issues, and spatial planning at the regional level will be a big step in overcoming this and then help mobilise the necessary private and public sector investments to make these things happen\u2014as cities develop, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ERegional strategies help achieve the purpose of the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBEA). They are prepared by the same regional planning committees that are established under the NBEA with the addition of a central government representative. Using the same committee was a recommendation of the select committee that has been adopted. The participation of a central government representative was at the request of councils who otherwise find it hard to pin down central government agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ERegional spatial strategies are required for each region, and they\u2019ll set out a vision and objective for a region\u2019s development over a 30-year period. They will focus on the big issues and opportunities facing the region. They\u2019re essentially a large map. Regional spatial strategies become a vehicle for delivering infrastructure in the right places at the right time, providing clear investments to the private sector as well as local and central government agencies responsible for things like transport and housing. Obviously, if you identify or require transport corridors early for protection, you\u2019ll get better outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EA regional spatial strategy will also identify areas that are less amenable for development. These could be areas of significant biodiversity; could be highly productive land. It might be better to direct development in the future on areas of less productive land\u2014the high-productive land should be protected from subdivision where possible\u2014then it might be that there are areas that are at risk for natural hazards like sea level rise that can be identified so that you have fewer battles about those things at the local plan level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EA regional spatial strategy isn\u2019t intended to be a document that sits on a shelf, but rather it\u2019s a blueprint for action. Implementation agreements are provided for, and progress on action can be monitored and reported on annually. Plans under the NBEA will put the detailed policies and rules in place to implement the regional spatial strategies. The NBEA is, of course, making process improvements like designations being able to be delivered more efficiently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn the end, quite complex mixes of housing infrastructure, corridors, schools, hospitals, commercial developments identified in regional spatial strategies will flow through to NBEA plans as permitted activities. This is one of the ways in which there will be fewer consents required under the new system\u2014or fewer notified consents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe legislation allows the regional planning committee to use different public and stakeholder engagement approaches for different issues, but the process must include some specified steps, including a hearing of submissions on a draft strategy. Enabling local democratic voice was a significant area that the select committee received submissions on and made suggestions which have been incorporated so that local aspirations via statements of community outcomes and statements of regional outcomes are incorporated\u2014and regional planning committees are required to report on how they\u2019ve taken these into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe central government appointee on the regional planning committee will be responsible for communicating central government priorities. These regional spatial strategies, then, you can see how they deliver an integrated approach, identifying the areas where future growth is likely to occur. On occasion, they might list a population trigger after which these things are released for development\u2014and also identifying the areas where development ought not to occur. This will help infrastructure planning with the investment signals being clearer for those who have to provide the money for infrastructure and housing, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMuch of the discussion around spatial planning has focused on urban growth and the need to ensure integrated investment in housing, transport, other infrastructure, and, for example, the green spaces that you need around new urban areas. But spatial planning also has the potential to address other community needs\u2014including, perhaps, how we deal with major tourism destinations to help them deliver sustainable tourism, and how we provide a future pathway for delivering resilient infrastructure in rural communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESpatial planning could also help deliver catchment, restoration, and collective efforts to improve our natural environment; could include landscape scale management programmes that involve multiple parties over a long period of time such as Predator Free or Wild \u002B Pine programmes. An integrated approach can also be achieved for port development, integrated with inland ports, addressing shipping lanes, dredge dumping sites, coastal ports as well as inland ports\u2014as I mentioned\u2014and connecting rail and road infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EVarious forms of spatial or strategic planning have been under way in parts of New Zealand and they have included urban growth partnerships and collaborative processes. In many cases, these have been undermined by not having a clear legislative basis, so agreements reached aren\u2019t held to, aren\u2019t implemented, and don\u2019t link into implementation mechanisms such as transport planning and investment\u2014and there are linkages in the Act through to those other transport planning legislation. Work currently under way on some of those spatial strategies can carry through into the regional spatial strategies under this Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe will continue on natural hazard planning work which we need as a country, and of course that can also feed into spatial strategies. Work by potential investors, infrastructure agencies, and community groups to identify what they want to achieve will be optimised by long-term spatial planning. We do need to get on with this bill without the delay that the members opposite now seem to want. There was a strong consensus in submissions to the select committee that spatial planning of this sort is needed. I find it unclear as to why members opposite want to repeal this legislation. It\u2019s a recipe for uncertainty and extra cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECan I take the opportunity to thank everyone who\u2019s been involved in what has been a big project\u2014the resource management reform process\u2014bringing these two bills to fruition? Can I add my thanks to others; to the Environment Committee members? They put an enormous amount of work in. Can I name, particularly, the Hon Eugenie Sage, whose competencies and hard work were evident; members of the Randerson panel; ministerial colleagues\u2014this has been a cross-Government programme\u2014including representatives of Treasury, transport, housing; and, of course, local government who implement most of the system have been an essential partner. M\u0101ori groups, environmental NGOs, industry and business groups, and the public have all contributed to this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EStuart Smith, in his last contribution, made the assertion that there\u2019s been lots of Supplementary Order Papers to these pieces of legislation. He\u2019s just wrong. The work was done at select committee. It is a matter of practice that, to aid the House, the changes made at select committee are shown in a tracked version of the bill which was in the House\u2014and that was done here. Those amendments were 90 percent - plus done at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECan I, particularly, acknowledge the hard work and long hours put in my officials at Ministry for the Environment and at the Parliamentary Counsel Office? This has been a big piece of work and they\u2019ve worked hard on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the criticisms that seems to be made here is it\u2019s a long Act. I\u2019ve noted previously that the legislation isn\u2019t actually long compared with the status quo. But if you look at other areas of legislation, whether it\u2019s the cornerstone legislation for tax or customs or the companies legislation in the Commerce Act, legislation does have to\u2014or the Health Act or the Education Act; none of them are short. This is the cornerstone piece of legislation that affects both the environment and development, and obviously you have to do it thoroughly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other side moaned for decades about the Resource Management Act (RMA). They did nothing about it. They said they were going to repeal the RMA\u2014never did it. Nine years, fiddled\u2014made it worse. The ACT Party and the National Party could never deliver, and it does seem like there\u2019s sort of a little bit of jealousy here that they can\u2019t admit that we\u2019ve delivered what they failed to achieve in over nine years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThey do have some issues that they have made clear in respect of Treaty-related clauses. It\u2019s fine for them to differentiate them. Stuart Smith\u2019s wrong about the uncertainty caused by a clause that refers to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Those same principles were previously referred to in the current legislative package. It\u2019s just that the members of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022800fffe139e74566852f77e42df4e1db\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022430cb35f6d154fbcafe95a461545571e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, I thought that there was a mistake made by cutting that short. Have I got that wrong? I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c36208f8ee01493cba9502a7d8574bbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c36208f8ee01493cba9502a7d8574bbd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00222cab53e142c94f6bbea8435b6bba1e21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cab53e142c94f6bbea8435b6bba1e21\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I actually do want to hear what the Minister was saying. Was there an issue with the time? We\u2019re not sure? OK\u2014all right. Well, I was going to seek leave for the member to have a few more minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa797be99d264fed8198d4b5cc71af8d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could the member please explain what his question was around the timing? You can stop the clock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201b83157fcd24ce586e9454730d9d6bf\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry\u2014well, point of order. Sorry, Madam Speaker. The Minister seemed to indicate that he thought he had more time than he had; there might\u2019ve been a stuff-up with the clock. I was actually quite interested in what he was saying at the tail end of his speech. You seem to be shaking your head and saying no, he had the full 10. Well, I mean, I seek leave for the Minister to have two more minutes to finish his contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002234403d3b287d4fbf9153545f949cc8a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234403d3b287d4fbf9153545f949cc8a1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that. Before I put the leave, I just want to be very clear about what has happened here, because the Minister has raised an issue around the timing. I\u2019m not across that, so just let me talk to the Clerk for a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ELook, thank you for your forbearance. I\u2019ve checked. I understand, and I\u2019m advised, that the timing that was allocated to the Minister was entirely appropriate. However, the member has asked for leave to\u2014well, would the member like to put the leave?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022341673d0dae5449994e624899fc65d3c\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think, appropriately, I have to seek\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7305c2a767c45898de68337ca25c96d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member wants to speak, would he like to take a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022098f5ccd7f3f40ddaa1cc9806bab2197\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022098f5ccd7f3f40ddaa1cc9806bab2197\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. I think I have to seek leave for myself; a member can\u2019t seek it for another. I seek leave for a two-minute extension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5587da8bf344ecfb3c8dbc4b5736900\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc5b5d5c374e4d6d8bdf34ae9360ac4b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and can I thank Chris Bishop for that suggestion. I was actually dealing with the issue of M\u0101ori rights and interests, and I can see from the debate around this Chamber that there is a legitimate debate around those issues. I would make the point in respect of Stuart Smith\u2019s comments that the reference to the principles of the Treaty is very common across the legislation in this country, and the change relates to from \u201Ctaking into account\u201D to \u201Cgiving effect to\u201D the principles of the Treaty, not the reference to the principles of the Treaty. Members will probably be aware that there is quite a bit of jurisprudence as to what those principles are, and a concern that if you go directly to reference the Treaty itself rather than the principles, you actually create more legal uncertainty and outcomes that might be a surprise because of new jurisprudence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of some of the other issues that I know Chris Bishop has raised in earlier issues relating to the debate, I think there is room for argument around those issues, and I can see why parties might differentiate that and want to change some of those provisions, but the overall scheme of this new legislation, which moves from an effects-based regime to outcomes with regional spatial plans, with plans decreasing from over 100 to 16 Resource Management Act plans, and with a more coherent articulation of outcomes, including outcomes for development, I think there is wide societal agreement that it is appropriate. So it saddens me that the Opposition threaten to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say start again rather than just making minor changes that they could make if they were elected and were so minded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022530a395ebdaf464c9775cfdf72fb907e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022530a395ebdaf464c9775cfdf72fb907e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00229837220ae60f4a75a16f939346c50180\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229837220ae60f4a75a16f939346c50180\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, and I thank the Minister for that useful contribution, which was slightly less vituperative than his contribution on the Natural and Built Environment Bill. Look, the National Party opposes this legislation but we do so with less hostility towards it than the Natural and Built Environment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFor some of the reasons that the Minister has outlined, everyone\u2019s in favour of fewer plans\u2014there\u2019s no doubt about that. We have too many, they\u2019re too long, the process around changing them is too difficult, and they increase complexity. I think the Minister has talked publicly about\u2014well, it might not have been the Minister but it was certainly someone from the Government side\u2014various different housing rules being different in Lower Hutt compared to Upper Hutt. They are only 15 kilometres down the road as the crow flies\u2014builders in both patches have to have different specifications. That sort of stuff\u2019s nuts and we all want to reduce that and there\u2019s not really a debate about that and nor is there a debate about doing spatial planning better. And actually, as the Minister himself said in his contribution, it happens now and essentially what\u2019s happened is councils and communities have just got around the Resource Management Act and actually come up with some quite sophisticated structures with central government already. So I think of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f613e3eca414bd498bb5ebc081c7515\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: But they don\u2019t stick; they\u2019re forever re-litigated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb20e870d484a1d92f366eaeacf9236\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, I accept that. But the structures are there and so I think about the Waikato, for example, which I spent a bit of time in recently, a forward-leaning, pro-growth region and, frankly, some of the Wellington city councils\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226fc6589ed3544d2a5074bed934243d6\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: The best in New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd99c0d641eb43e08c1c3fc2c7d89ef1\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Louise Upston says the best in New Zealand. Certainly, in some respects they are and, frankly, the Wellington Regional Council, which seems to be going out of its way to stop housing being built anywhere in the Wellington region and involve itself in an endless debate about the fantasy of light rail, could adopt some of Waikato\u2019s and Hamilton\u2019s pro-growth mind-set. But Waikato is getting on with it and actually, to acknowledge the Government, some of that work was started by the Hon Phil Twyford when he was the Minister of Housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI think about some of what\u2019s going on in Tauranga now, for example, where the commissioners are have upended a sort of anti-growth mind-set which has resulted in some of the most unaffordable housing prices in the developed world in Tauranga as Tauranga transitions from a small retirement community into what is a city, a big city and a growing city, in the heart of productive New Zealand, situated very, very close to Hamilton and Waikato and the so-called Golden Triangle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo some of that stuff is happening already and so the question is how you give effect to that. And the question that this bill poses is: is the superstructure created by the new spatial planning regime that the right way to do that? We\u2019re as yet unconvinced that that is. We worry about the over bureaucratisation of the process. There were legitimate concerns expressed by local government around the anti-democratic nature of some of this. Now, I am not someone for whom local democracy is the be all and end all of existence. There is clearly a balance and a tension between central government\u2019s legitimate policy goals and local decision-making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ETo take the most obvious example, central government spends $4 billion a year on housing subsidies, $4 billion: $2 billion in the accommodation supplement, $1.5 million and change on the income-related rent subsidy, and the rest of it on emergency housing\u2014$4 billion a year is an astonishing sum of money. The reason central government has to spend all that money is in large part because of council planning rules that have stopped cities from growing. And we bear all the consequence of that in central government, and local government just, you know, says no to housing and so there\u2019s clearly a legitimate role for central government to compel regions to grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee629f57ddd14cd99fd7b829ef6c537a\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: MDRS?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200afc99908f2499e866c29a9c13592ac\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you know, the medium density residential standard is still there under National\u2019s policy; it\u2019s just more discretion and flexibility. But the point is they\u2019ve got to go for growth\u2014they have to go for growth, and our policy is the same as yours was, Mr Twyford, back in 2017 when the Government gave a Speech from the Throne saying the metropolitan urban limit would be smashed. And six years later, the metropolitan urban limit is still in place in Auckland. In fact, the future development zone in Auckland doubles down on the restrictive planning rules stopping Auckland from growing. And the future development zone\u2014there\u2019s an article just by Todd Niall in Stuff this morning in which a succession of councillors and planners in Auckland are boasting about the fact that Auckland will not grow as much. It\u2019s just demented, actually, because Auckland house prices are some of the most unaffordable in the developed world and the idea that Auckland can just put a ring around itself and basically just hope for the best is, frankly delusional. So thank you for that interjection, Mr Twyford. It allowed me to have a bit of a vent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned natural hazard planning and he said we need to get on with it. Well, we agree. With respect, where\u2019s the bill? Because we were told there\u2019d be a trifecta of bills; we\u2019re on to the second one now. Where\u2019s the third bill? I mean, we\u2019re up for that, on this side of the House and we do want to have a genuine bipartisan conversation about it, because it\u2019s really important, as the Minister says, and the Minister seemed to be implying the National Party was opposed to it. We\u2019re not. We want to talk about natural hazards and proper planning around that. We\u2019re just waiting for the bill which, as yet, is yet to materialise and we want to see that. Maybe, if we have the privilege of forming a Government, we\u2019ll get to have a look at where the work\u2019s got to. So we wait and see for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ECan I also just, in this quite potpourri contribution speech, acknowledge Eugenie Sage, who\u2019s a departing MP, for her chairpersonship of the committee. She did do a good job, as the Minister says. We have our political differences, but she\u2019s a very fair minded and genial person who\u2019s made a big contribution to Parliament, and I, for one, will miss her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOn the M\u0101ori rights and interest thing, I think the point is not so much that the bill gives effect to the Treaty. The point, I think, is the change from \u201Ctake account\u201D to \u201Cgive effect to\u201D, and I do worry about that, because it sounds like a subtle change but I worry about what effect that will have on our planning regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI also worry about clause 7, \u201CIwi and hap\u016B responsibilities in relation to te taiao\u201D, because, as I got into the Minister in the committee stage, the subheading is \u201CIwi and hap\u016B responsibilities\u201D, but the actual clause says \u201CAll persons exercising powers and performing duties and functions \u2026 must recognise and provide for the responsibility and mana of each iwi and hap\u016B\u201D. So the clause is actually wider than that and I worry about that, from a planning point of view and a certainty point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EJust finally, as we close off these two bills, with respect to the Minister, it\u2019s not jealousy that the Government is reforming the Resource Management Act (RMA) that National opposes it. National has always been up for RMA reform. In fact, we tried and the Minister knows it. We tried in Government. We never had the numbers, thanks to the Hon Peter Dunne, who should hang his head in shame over his behaviour on the RMA. But we never had the numbers and the Government now does have the numbers. We wrote to the Government\u2014this is all on the record\u2014saying that we were up for bipartisan RMA reform; this stuff is really important. And we never really had a response. So we are where we are and the Government has charged off in their own direction, and I feel confident in saying that there are Government members who are worried about aspects of this legislation and concerned about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI do think clause 3 of the Natural and Built Environment Bill, which is linked to the Spatial Planning Bill, will prove disastrous. We will have to change it, and much of where the Government has landed is wrong-headed. So it\u2019s not that we oppose it for its own sake. It\u2019s not just party politics for the sake of it. I am really\u2014and we are really\u2014concerned about where this is going. The Government has decided to pass it through before the election, while they have the numbers\u2014we know that\u2014and maybe things will be different after 14 October; maybe they won\u2019t. But all we can do before the bills before the Parliament right now is just put on the record our opposition and our intentions, and we\u2019re being completely up front and transparent around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe oppose the bills. We do think they should be off the statute book. We are up for RMA reform and, as I think have indicated, we are up for regional spatial planning. There are some really good things in this bill. There are some sensible things in this bill. Maybe some of them will carry over to the new regime when the time comes, but for now, we oppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b525c1dbd840402cb7a84926244b968d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b525c1dbd840402cb7a84926244b968d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on this bill, the Spatial Planning Bill. As we discussed in the committee stage, it\u2019s not the \u201CStrategic Planning Bill\u201D, but the spatial plans do have to be strategic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a really good bill, and it\u2019s a really important thing that we do by making these statutory spatial plans at the regional level. As the Minister for the Environment just mentioned, there are a lot of spatial plans that have already been developed around New Zealand. Some of them are with central government and local government and mana whenua working together: some with different combinations, some focused on roads, some focused on housing, and some focused on both, but, certainly, none of them are focused on all the matters that are in clause 17 of the bill, which is \u201CContents of regional spatial strategies: key matters\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut before I draw some attention to those key matters in clause 17\u2014which, for me, is really the heart of the bill\u2014of course I want to again reference the fact that the word \u201Cmap\u201D is now in the bill, and I say thank you to the select committee for that work. This is because, of course, when we\u2019re thinking about these spatial plans and a lot of the layers of data that will be involved in them, they will need to have a visual component to them\u2014in fact, I would say that that\u2019s the main component to them for the users\u2014to be able to see how these key matters play out by the people who are making this spatial strategy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESome of those key matters include things like areas that are appropriate to be reserved for rural use because, for example, they contain highly productive land; areas in the coastal marine area that are appropriate for development or change in use; matters relating to infrastructure, including existing, planned, or potential infrastructure that is or may be required to meet current and future needs; opportunities to make better use of existing infrastructure\u2014that\u2019s something that\u2019s often forgotten about. We have a lot of existing infrastructure that may be able to be used in a more effective way, and we shouldn\u2019t just always be thinking about building new things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, there is climate change mitigation, at clause 17(1)(ja): \u201Cmatters relating to climate change mitigation, including\u2014(i) indicative locations for infrastructure that is or may be required to support the production of renewable energy or other measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions:\u201D. That is very specific and important for doing the energy transformation that we need to do in New Zealand by electrifying the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, at clause 17(1)(ja)(ii): \u201Careas that are suitable for land use change that would support reductions in greenhouse gas emissions:\u201D, and we\u2019ve talked a lot today over the debates on the two bills about natural hazards, as well. Paragraph (jb) has \u201Cmatters relating to risks arising from natural hazards and the effects of climate change, including\u2014(i) areas that are or will be vulnerable to those risks:\u201D. It\u2019s very important that in the spatial strategies we\u2019re identifying those areas that people shouldn\u2019t be building new houses on, for instance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also want to note, going back to those spatial strategies or spatial plans that already exist, that they don\u2019t have a legislative standing at the moment, so it\u2019s been very difficult for\u2014well, some of them have a little bit of legislative standing, but a lot of them don\u2019t. So it\u2019s been difficult for people doing their Resource Management Act plans to really make those spatial strategies inform those resource management plans. By having this Act work with the Natural and Built Environment Act, that relationship is clear, and that is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe heard in the last speech there about \u201CWhere\u2019s this other piece of legislation regarding the climate adaptation?\u201D, and that is a difficult piece of legislation to do, because the idea or the intent of that is to deal with areas where people already have existing activities and there needs to be some change to those. Part of the problem or part of the complexity of that issue is, of course, the expense. It\u2019s expensive to move and to change, and there are questions about who pays and how much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThose are all difficult and important questions that do need to be answered, and, in my opinion, they need to be bipartisan as well. So James Shaw, the Minister of Climate Change, has just announced, I think, yesterday that he\u2019s inviting the Environment Committee\u2014a very good select committee, and we\u2019ve heard about them a lot today\u2014to look at that issue and report back, obviously, after the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI note also that the previous speaker mentioned the difference between \u201Ctake into account\u201D and \u201Cgive effect to\u201D when talking about the Treaty principles, and, in an unusual admission, I do agree with Chris Bishop on that point. It is an important change. It\u2019s a big change to go from \u201Ctake into account\u201D to \u201Cgive effect to\u201D, and it\u2019s done on purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy last point I think I\u2019ll make on this bill is the importance of the central government person or representative that is going to be on the planning committee. So when the planning committees are making the natural and built environment regulatory plans, they don\u2019t have a central government person on them, but when they are making these spatial plans, they do have a central government person on them, and the point of that central government person is not to tell everybody what to do because they\u2019re from central government, but to try and coordinate what is often a very siloed environment. I\u2019ve been involved in many plans being made over the years, and often you\u2019ll have very different voices from central government representing quite different ideas. So as to the idea that central government can be cajoled, they have a coherent message and can be clear about what plans are there for various different types of infrastructure\u2014and by \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D, I of course do not just mean roads, but the schools, hospitals, and the stormwater that I was talking about earlier in the previous debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo, again, this is great to see this here at a third reading. Like the other speakers have also said, I do want to thank the select committee for their hard work on it and thank all of the officials and always, obviously, the Parliamentary Counsel Office but also the officials of the select committee as well. The select committee has spent a long time on these bills. It has listened to a lot of submissions and had a lot of to-ing and fro-ing with the advisers, and that meant that the clerks on the committee had a lot of work to do. They of course did a great job, and I\u2019m very grateful for that work. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221e8e1eabb1134ce183830ad34c575cdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e8e1eabb1134ce183830ad34c575cdb\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, here we are on the Spatial Planning Bill, after the Natural and Built Environment Bill this morning and this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EIt has been a big job actually listening to all the submissions\u2014almost 3,000 submissions on both these bills\u2014but it was really interesting when the submissions come through between both of the bills, the submissions were very intertwined, all of them, because actually that\u2019s what the two bills do. They\u2019re designed to work together, and it\u2019s not surprising that most of the submitters chose to intertwine their submissions rather than do separate ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI would like to note that as a committee we were able to make changes to the bill. The officials were very willing and, as I said before, we didn\u2019t get all the changes that we might have liked to have made, particularly with the other bill. But I think when it comes to this one, when I said before that the natural built environment and resource management planning is hard\u2014and we know that there\u2019s a third stream to this which is going to have to link in, in many ways. That\u2019s actually going to be much harder because it\u2019s going to be a huge disruption to the status quo for many people. I saw a presentation just recently around how difficult it would be and how many Acts it interacts with, and so if we think this part is hard, going forward into further parts is going to take a huge amount of thinking because it\u2019s going to cause a lot of disruption to many people\u2019s lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI think probably where a lot of the objections have come in around both of these bills is around the legal aspects of it. I\u2019ve not got a background in resource consenting, but I know others have and there is quite a bit of concern from a number of people that there will be some legal challenges around this. Other people will have varying different views and they probably vary quite a bit as you work your way around the House. But I do think when it comes to long-term planning, it is important to put a strategy before the structure, and I think going from 100 plans to 16 plans has to be a good move. If we think about how our regional councils sit now, if we think about regional boundaries, if we have the opportunity as regions to look each other in the eye and do some face-to-face work, we can often come out with some good things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s a question around local voice and local council and local communities and how they might react to these regional planning committees, but the idea of regional plans in itself makes a huge amount of sense. And I think not just from a regional planning perspective but also from a series of connected maps, because no region is ever an island. If I look at an area like Taranaki, it\u2019s quite a nice, compact little region where it\u2019s very easy, with the maunga in the middle, to be able to interact. It\u2019s not too far to drive. It\u2019s much more simple than\u2014and I know the Waikato region and all their good planning has been mentioned this afternoon. If I look at the Waikato region, it goes from up in the Coromandel up where Scott Simpson lives\u2014which has largely been affected by cyclones over recent months\u2014right down to Mokau, which is at the north end of Taranaki, and it fits all into the same regional council and there\u2019s a huge amount of varying differences. So spatial planning for that one region in itself is going to take quite a lot of thought into how that works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EBut then of course each region then links with other regions. And I take note of what Minister Rachel Brooking said before about the map, and we had lots of discussions at the Environment Committee about a map. I think that makes a huge amount of sense to start with a map, look what the area entails, and then have people identify opportunities within that map to show what they see is happening in their region. Because it doesn\u2019t make any sense to do it bit by bit by bit. Because whatever we do for nature, nature always wins. Nature is hard. And in terms of planning, we saw the Hawke\u2019s Bay floods, we saw pictures of where the historic wetlands were, and then we saw overlaid aerial photographs of where the water sat after the houses had been built. And then we wonder as human beings when we build in some places, without giving it too much thought, why things wash away when we have a cyclone. It\u2019s not to point the finger at any particular person, and I\u2019m sure there will be examples in the Auckland flooding, there will be examples in Tair\u0101whiti. There are things where we say, \u201CWhy did we do it like this?\u201D And I think spatial planning really is one of those things that will give us the opportunity to look at what we have and do it differently in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EWe also had, as a committee, the opportunity to work with the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment around planning where green spaces might have been, and we looked at how the water didn\u2019t drain away in some of those places when we had copious amounts of rain. But also, some of the other things, when we look at the heating up and the climate change, that we can cool streets down quite effectively by having more trees than what we might have had in the past. And there\u2019s some very good examples of streets where they\u2019re not very far apart, particularly in warmer places, and we saw some examples in Australia where trees make such a huge difference. So it is really important that we think about\u2014we see lots of current housing plans and pictures of sub developments where we just have house by house by house. So it gives us a very good opportunity to stand back and look more closely at where we put things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EIt would have been easy, as a country, when we look at highly productive land to stand back and go, \u201CWell, this would be the best place to put it; this place would be the best place to put it; and that place would be the best place to put it.\u201D But now that we\u2019re already moved as a population in time, there\u2019s no way that you can actually then stand back and do that as simply as you could if you had a blank map. So we need to think quite carefully around that. But the climate adaptation bill is going to be a hard one to fit in, and it will take some spatial planning, it will take quite a bit of spatial planning to figure out if we\u2019ve got to shift people from where they are now, shift activities from where they are now to where they need to go. And we\u2019re going to have to have a jolly good look at each region and each spatial plan to figure out where and how and why we would be doing things. Because what we don\u2019t want to do is make the same mistakes in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThere has been some concern around the people appointed to the regional planning committees and having one central government person. It has been explained to us that that would be a link back to the Government departments and to be able to make those connections with our Government departments in order to help the Spatial Planning Bill make the spatial planning committees do their work. I think it would be unfortunate if we did go to regional spatial planning and then had a central government overlay, which then goes back to the way Governments actually\u2014and Governments of both colours do this. I know that councils and regional councils, in an endless process of planning and long-term planning\u2014before you know it the central government changes the rules and you have another plan in place and another plan in place, and I dread to think how much as a country we would have spent over a long period of time on long-term planning, which actually doesn\u2019t turn out to be long-term planning because someone else puts a new idea in the middle and before you know it things are rolling over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EAnd yes, we have to evolve, but we\u2019ve spent a lot of money on planning over the years, and so if this\u2014well this bill will pass today, if this does come into place, you know, National has signalled that we would be repealing and taking another look at this. But if this was to be in place, I would hope that it would last a lot longer than what the current situation is, because as a country we can\u2019t afford to keep undoing and redoing and undoing and redoing all our plans. We have to actually think years ahead, put some longterm plans in place, and get on with it. So hopefully that\u2019s what we can look forward to as we progress with more long-term planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s probably fair to say that it is the Natural and Built Environment Bill that is the harder one for National to accept. This one has some things in it that would need fixing, but we do believe in spatial planning. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022b130b8dc8d5a4903b964f0cb26dacad2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b130b8dc8d5a4903b964f0cb26dacad2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, it\u2019s good to follow Barbara Kuriger, an outstanding member of the Environment Committee. In the last term of Parliament, as Minister of Housing and Urban Development, I instigated and oversaw a series of regional planning initiatives also known as the urban growth partnerships, starting in the mighty Waikato, Wellington, Bay of Plenty, and the Auckland-Hamilton Corridor. The approach that we took was to get multiple councils: regional, city, district, together in the room. Mana whenua there right from the beginning, looking out over a 30 year horizon. Central government in the room with local government and iwi. High level spatial plans, maps, looking out into the future, taking into account growth projections for economic growth and population growth, dealing with climate adaptation, natural hazards, infrastructure\u2014the network infrastructure, roads and water particularly, and the protection of ecological and cultural assets. It\u2019s basically the approach that is reflected in the Spatial Planning Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI saw the enthusiasm and commitment that all of those actors, local government particularly, brought to that enterprise. They were keen as to get in the room with all of the other players, to do spatial planning way beyond the governance boundaries of their councils, recognising that land markets, housing, the movement of people, transport take no account of those boundaries\u2014they are a hindrance. There were two real standout performers\u2014people have mentioned the Waikato councils, but also the Bay of Plenty were fantastic, and they demonstrated a willingness to work together, to think about long-term growth projections, to reform zoning in order to deliver more housing and more urban growth, and also to consider how to futureproof and modernise the transport networks to support the kind of growth they wanted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis bill, the Spatial Planning Bill, enshrines that approach in law and puts it at the heart of the new resource management system. It\u2019s an excellent approach. It\u2019s long overdue. The regional spatial strategies that will be produced by the planning committees will inform and provide direction and context for the natural and built environment plans. I believe that these regional spatial strategies will significantly improve the environmental outcomes. They will give communities more of a say in the really important choices and challenges facing our regions. They will make it easier for our towns and cities to grow, particularly by identifying the important corridors for future growth, the early marking out of grids for roads and network infrastructure like water, and this will enable the supply of land and development opportunities that will make our urban land markets more competitive, something that has been sorely lacking under the existing planning system now for several decades. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022bec21947b67044a288064d025d4003e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bec21947b67044a288064d025d4003e0\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Spatial planning is an important tool if it gives people, businesses, and communities information so they can plan where to build. The previous speaker, the Hon Phil Twyford, once had a good plan himself. That was to abolish Auckland\u2019s metropolitan urban limit\u2014what a fantastic idea. It was even included in the Speech from the Throne in 2017 because it would have liberated Aucklanders from the artificial constraint of being told where they are and are not allowed to build. But, like so many of Mr Twyford\u2019s good ideas, unfortunately, it\u2019s disappeared in a puff of smoke. But don\u2019t worry, Mr Twyford, ACT might just bring that back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, there is a problem to solve that spatial planning tries to solve. It should reduce the number of consents and the complexity of any planning or application process so that people who own land\u2014private property owners or developers, whether they be property developers or asset infrastructure developers\u2014can get on with building the things that we need to actually deliver social benefits. Even though engineers, like me, love watching bulldozers push dirt around, we love watching concrete get poured and buildings go up, actually, all of that infrastructure is for one specific purpose, and that is to deliver social outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill do? Well, it doesn\u2019t make it easier to build. In fact, what we heard from the Minister for the Environment is that the plan will identify where future growth happens, and it will provide a triggering mechanism so that land will only be released for development\u2014around existing urban areas, for example\u2014when a trigger is hit under a regional or spatial plan. So instead of property owners deciding \u201CI want to build something somewhere because it\u2019s needed.\u201D, they won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill adds divisive co-governance to regional planning committees. A minimum of two out of six of the appointed, not elected\u2014two out of six appointed or elected people on regional planning committees will have to be appointees representing iwi M\u0101ori. And you can\u2019t vote these committees out, unlike now. If you\u2019re unhappy with the plans the council makes and a community decides they\u2019re not delivering for them, they can vote the council out\u2014you\u2019ll never be able to vote out these regional planning committees. If you think the regional planning committees are doing a bad job, just wait, because this bill also gives the Minister for the Environment, who will become the most powerful Minister in a future Government, the opportunity to tell these regional planning committees what they want them to do\u2014absolutely removes democratic local control from the way communities have planned and decided the way they develop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill also will allow these plans to limit how people use their land. For example, what we heard from officials, what we\u2019ve heard today from Labour Party representatives, is that the bill will say where you are and are not allowed to develop. Now, they use the very important information around, say, where sea levels might rise, where there are coastal hazards, where there are flood zones, and where there are risks of slips or volcanoes or seismic risks. Of course a spatial plan needs to convey that information to people who are building or planning for the future. But colouring in the map in a way that sterilises potential resources, like quarry resources\u2014sand, rock, and all kinds of minerals that planners today don\u2019t know are there\u2014is incredibly unhelpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat is much more helpful is if a regional spatial plan actually outlined places that are so special, that have such high environmental values, for example, that we would actually delineate them and say \u201CNo, there won\u2019t be any building there.\u201D But, of course, if they are on private property, that would actually require the Government to pony up with taxpayer funds if they are proposing to acquire somebody\u2019s private property rights or take some of those property rights away by colouring in a map saying what they are and are not allowed to do. This Government doesn\u2019t know about private property rights\u2014they don\u2019t understand what they mean. So, clearly, that\u2019s probably why they\u2019ve omitted mention of private property rights from this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe Associate Minister for the Environment, the Hon Rachel Brooking, also mentioned how wonderful it would be to have one representative from central government sitting on a regional planning committee. Of course, there are so many parts of Government that want to build things and sometimes they don\u2019t all talk to each other or the local council that does the planning. Well, can you imagine one representative of central government sitting on a planning committee and trying to work out where everything should go, like a game of Tetris, or like a teenager playing SimCity, a teenager obsessed with central planning and central control? Imagine the health department, the education department, road, rail, ports, airports, and council parks and recreation all having to tell this committee what they want to build and when it is going to be. It\u2019s going to be one central government representative who\u2019s going to help them coordinate it all\u2014I mean, it\u2019s fantastical. I\u2019ve seen Parks and Recreation\u2014it\u2019s hilarious\u2014but that\u2019s not the prescription that New Zealand needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, what is the purpose of spatial plans? Well, to convey information to people who need it, so, when they go to build, they can take account of natural hazards. Or, of course, if a transport agency or a railway operator or a port or an airport wants to expand or build, people will know that when they go to build there\u2014that airport, for example, have said, \u201CWe\u2019re going to build a second runway. You need to know that planes might be flying over a house you build there.\u201D\u2014very, very, very useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut what this Government appears to assume is that by doing the spatial planning, that\u2019s enough. They talk about how this planning process will enable infrastructure. Well, how is infrastructure enabled? An infrastructure operator, an asset owner, has to create an infrastructure delivery programme that says what they\u2019re going to build, whether it\u2019s four-lane roads, whether it\u2019s ports, or whether it\u2019s rail\u2014whatever it is they want to build, it has to be on a programme held by that asset owner, that infrastructure owner. And while it might be on a programme so that they can accommodate future growth\u2014whether it\u2019s a whole lot of kids coming to live somewhere, so they need to build a new school, whatever it is\u2014unless they have funding and financing locked in, unless they have a long-term horizon, none of this stuff can happen. This \u201Cspatial planning equals infrastructure\u201D is a \u201Cmagic happens\u201D approach to solving some of New Zealand\u2019s underlying problems, such as how do we deliver more service land at a more affordable price so that housing can be delivered more affordably to people who need it where and when they want to live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat brings me to another problem with this bill. This bill, the Spatial Planning Bill, when passed, will, essentially, extinguish the opportunity for private developers to progress private plan changes that have delivered some of the best, highest-quality master-plan communities for people who want to live around New Zealand\u2014outrageous. Telling people that you can\u2019t plan and deliver fantastic communities, build town centres, or build public transport facilities because it\u2019s not where a Minister or an unelected co-governance panel of planning tsars tell you you\u2019re allowed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what would be better than this? Well, you could say just about anything. But we do acknowledge there is an important role for spatial planning\u2014it conveys information. But the bit that\u2019s missing is the infrastructure funding and financing component. Now, here\u2019s the tell: when this bill, one of three, was first proposed, it was called the Strategic Planning Bill. Maybe that\u2019s the tell. Strategic planning involves working out the \u201Cwhere\u201D on a map with the \u201Chow\u201D, which is the infrastructure delivery programme. Again, far too complex for a Labour Government staffed by a cadre of inexperienced Ministers to ever hope to get their heads around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut don\u2019t worry, the ACT Party and our friends in the National Party are going to be able to restore the balance. We won\u2019t just be colouring in the colouring-in book like Labour have. We\u2019ve got plans to deliver infrastructure, to fund and finance it, and to reform resource management law in New Zealand in a way that upholds private property rights, guarantees customary rights to people who have them, and allows Kiwis to get on the building. [Holds up document] And it\u2019s right here: ACT\u2019s solutions for building New Zealand and conserving nature. People watching at home or listening on the radio can download it at ACT.org.nz. I highly recommend it. It\u2019s a practical prescription for progress. That\u2019s what New Zealanders are asking for as we go into this election in October\u00A02023\u2014they\u2019re asking for practical solutions to problems. That\u2019s what ACT is offering. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00229abf52b243b1476e9864871a3d357a90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229abf52b243b1476e9864871a3d357a90\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you. I\u2019m really pleased to take a call on the Spatial Planning Bill, and I think this bill has got huge potential to improve the way we plan in Aotearoa and the way we develop new urban areas, our towns expand, where we put infrastructure, how we look after nature, our rivers, and our coast, and how we respond to climate change, rising sea levels, and increased flood hazard events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe are very fortunate that the Parliamentary Counsel Office is very skilled at drafting law in plain English. So this is a more manageable bill, as I\u2019ve said before, than the Natural and Built Environment Bill, partly because it\u2019s a lot shorter, but it\u2019s also very easy to read. The purpose of it is to get these regional spatial strategies, which will have a life of planning for up to 30 years and longer, and to ensure that there\u2019s more strategic direction to how we manage nature, and how we develop and how we use natural resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt is about being strategic and it is about integrating with the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the outcomes in that bill. It\u2019s about having these strategies developed in a slightly different way from the way we\u2019ve done planning to date in terms of having a very sort of staged process of everybody putting in submissions, going to a hearing, then potentially going to appeal after decisions have been released. There is a strong thrust in the legislation that the regional planning committees will run a really good and solid engagement process to really get the public\u2019s ideas about how do they see the region developing, what are the areas of nature that really need to be protected, and how should we respond to things like rising seas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo, as other members have noted, the fact is that we are now putting into law a requirement for spatial planning. Councils working together have endeavoured to do it, but they\u2019ve had to develop their own governance arrangements. It has often relied on the initiatives and the personalities of particular councils, lucking on a good independent facilitator or chair. Now this bill is requiring it, except in the Chatham Islands, where it\u2019s optional because of the size of that area. So I think and I hope that with regard to the practice that\u2019s developed under the Resource Management Act regime, people can draw on what\u2019s been best in that and put it into effect as the bill gets becomes law and is implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the key changes, as the Hon Rachel Brooking has noted, is that there will have to be a central government representative on the committee that develops the spatial strategy. Now, ACT has thundered against that, and ACT\u2019s comments fail to recognise that you have one person there, but you can\u2019t have them making all the decisions just in the room. But they are the connector to ensure that if Waka Kotahi funding is needed for roads, there is a link-in with the planning that is happening around where the urban development and subdivision is to be, where we need new busways and that that\u2019s integrated into that, new cycleways\u2014that the funding then gets bid for in the Budget process, so you get an integration which is not always obvious to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe bill sets out the key outcomes for and contents of the strategies in clauses 16 and 17, the key matters that they have to deal with. There were quite a few changes that the select committee made here. There was a strong push by Horticulture New Zealand and others for stronger protection of highly productive land, and that is one of the changes that we made, because we do not want urban sprawl to compromise soils that are valuable for food growing. Sprawl, despite what the ACT Party says around plan changes, also leads to transport systems that are not nearly as efficient and are much more expensive and infrastructure that is more expensive. So taking that long-term view of 30 years or more, as councils do with their asset management plans, is about being strategic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI guess I\u2019m a little frustrated, because what I heard from the National Party was some very measured contributions, and I think Chris Bishop said National was opposed with less hostility to this than the Natural and Built Environment Bill\u2014everyone is in favour of fewer plans. So it is a tragedy that the select committee process was not used by National to highlight the things that they saw as needing change in this bill, because everyone agrees about the need to plan well, and so there was the potential for there to be cross-party agreement on that. But, once again, there\u2019s been a political position taken at the very outset which has prevented that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c3dd10ff5d44f0b761b196e610114e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, that\u2019s unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e57ac687e564cb4bfe1f93067680347\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: So\u2014sorry, Mr Brownlee, I didn\u2019t hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8d96a01ea1420aa010efeba35d9fbd\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it\u2019s very unreasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dedfd6d8f88405cab6849afee538d83\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: So we do want this to work well. I\u2019m looking forward to the guidance that the Ministry for the Environment provides to the regional planning committees in terms of how to implement it but I would really encourage the public and others to actually read the bill, because it is very readable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI guess the other thing is, in terms of the key matters that are to be included in these regional spatial strategies, it\u2019s also areas of cultural heritage and areas with resources that are important to M\u0101ori. We haven\u2019t had that in our planning law. This means that mahinga kai, for example, will get flagged and protected through the planning process. It\u2019s taking planning to a new level, so I am very supportive of the bill and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00221b082f1db7714f3887f0313767684aec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b082f1db7714f3887f0313767684aec\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m delighted to stand, once again, to speak in the House on the Spatial Planning Bill. We worked through this bill concurrently alongside the previous bill we\u2019ve mentioned today, the Natural and Built Environment Bill. It was an interesting process to do that, because I completely agree with the member the Hon Eugenie Sage; the difference in the two pieces of legislation are quite marked. This is a much simpler piece of legislation and, in fact, a piece of legislation that people across the country have been asking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI spend a lot of time with developers and builders etc.; of course, we have a family business doing so. One of the things that in the community of Tauranga, the Bay of Plenty, we worked across Government and across regionally to work with the UFTI group\u2014the Urban Form Transport Infrastructure group. The biggest ask in that group was that the Government was at the table alongside the central and local councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThat was really important that they were there, and this one of the things that this bill does. Essentially, it\u2019s giving that long view of what a community or place-making should look like. It\u2019s that up-to-30-years plan, and it\u2019s important that we have this oversight. It\u2019s about making the right decisions for our communities. It\u2019s cutting back from about a hundred plans to about 16; that tells us, really simply, that we need to start thinking about our communities as not being discreet and individual, but also connected. I think this is a really useful piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EJust before I take my seat, I do want to acknowledge the long\u2014many long\u2014hours that the select committee took, but also for our officials from the Ministry for the Environment, who worked weekends, who worked all sorts of hours to bring us really sound and good advice, and our clerk team, as well, who were there organising and orchestrating the constant movement that occurred; a tremendous effort. To the Hon Eugenie Sage and the Hon Rachel Brooking, as well as the Hon David Parker, this is a good piece of legislation that all three of you have shepherded through this House. I utterly commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022080d2b0ada814016bd3bea7b1b3cdf67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022080d2b0ada814016bd3bea7b1b3cdf67\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on Tama Potaka for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022598b7e9943ec4c4aa7920ac3e0615f27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022598b7e9943ec4c4aa7920ac3e0615f27\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for this opportunity to speak to the Spatial Planning Bill at the third reading. As mentioned, National supports reform of the Resource Management Act (RMA) and endorses spatial planning as a concept, but respectfully opposes this very readable bill and also the legislative ram-raiding that has resulted in the bill accelerating through this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe bill continues to be negligent, with illusory and ill-defined commitments to M\u0101ori concepts: legislative chicanery at its finest. A proverbial Pied Piper of resource management has emerged and there is a clamouring of consultants, lawyers, academics, and potential committee members awaiting their hungry feast. I\u2019ve previously socialised what I believe is the Government\u2019s unreasonable stumble to maximise k\u0101wanatanga, often uncosted at the expense of rangatiratanga and common sense. This bill does nothing to allay my concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EK\u0101wanatanga takes over more here, except we call it \u201Cregional planning committees\u201D. On a Treaty theme, can I refer to clause 5, which mirrors clause 4 of the Natural and Built Environment Bill. The bill doubles down on that powerful clause in reference to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and thanks to the Minister, who confirmed there is no intent to confuse those applicants and decision-makers who are affected by its provision. But the problem here that I respectfully signal again is that the interpretation of Treaty principles have often generated more hope and a lot more dissatisfaction. The Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki Tribal Trust and Department of Conservation decision at the Supreme Court reinforces this observation: lots of resource, years of effort, a major judicial decision, and no genuine partnership between the Crown and Ng\u0101i Tai. Kak\u012B h\u014Dhonu; p\u0101paku uaua, e hoa.\u00A0[Deep throat; shallow muscles.]\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EA Treaty reference is useful when it results in action, and I\u2019m sceptical about how regional planning committees, in some regions, will genuinely accommodate and deliver on the diverse aspirations of iwi and M\u0101ori outside tribal narratives, place names, and some tree-planting programmes for planning purposes. The regional planning committees, set out in this bill, comprising individuals that are appointed, not elected, appear to just be another layer of bureaucracy. It will have the effect of convoluting planning and decision-making and compromising rangatiratanga further, because there are not enough seats for all the iwi and M\u0101ori organisations that might wish to be on them. The democratic principle of one person, one vote\u2014which we heartily agree with\u2014is gone; gone by lunchtime, and further shadowed by appointing more and more bureaucrats to join more and more and more committees and make more and more decisions. Who\u2019s going to pay for them? Nowhere have I heard what the actual costs for these kumu on more seats in the corridor of decision-making actually constitute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EAs drafted, these planning committees have more than a symbolic and cursory function. Through my uneducated and thick lens, they look like they\u2019re overtaking the responsibilities of councils\u2014who should be really delivering on these issues? They seem under-democratic, time-consuming, faceless, and unreflective of communities of interest. Hamilton City Council\u2014which, by the way, sports three oxen, two p\u016Bkeko, and the Waikato River on its coat of arms\u2014opined in their submission that their own decision-making process will be severely compromised with the current drafting. Actually, what will our council do, David Bennett, if 10 waters, RMA reform, and other Government objectives are legislated? Hosting more world rugby finals and more darts nights is simply not enough to keep our mayor and councillors happy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4f50c1504b48b49710a2fd329ab668\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Bring the V8s back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022181b20187a164e3a8b33752da7886f35\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, the V8s\u2014that $40 million question. We\u2019ve opined previously on section 7, which refers to mana, but we\u2019re none the wiser about what mana means in this third reading. Honourable use of the terms, yes; unclear use, definitely. During a previous incarnation of this speaker, I spoke to the wisdoms of the wisdoms of that well-known Labour legislator Geoffrey Palmer, former Prime Minister, and his concern with our law being too fast. Sir Geoffrey Palmer referred to New Zealand lacking the checks to prevent constitutional slippage\u2014slippage and ambiguity is the hallmark of this triplicate legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIf we can\u2019t get these terms clear, like \u201Ckawa\u201D, and \u201Ctikanga\u201D and \u201Cmana\u201D, how do we expect the M\u0101ori gold and pounamu miners, the M\u0101ori corporate dairy farmers, and the M\u0101ori aquaculture specialists to actually get things done and get the country back on track? If we can\u2019t get those terms clear, how do we expect to rely on the reliable, independent bench to actually get our country moving? I don\u2019t know; I don\u2019t know, Mr Smith. But at the moment, what I\u2019m looking at is a series of terms, a series of planning committees, a series of concepts and terminology that have been rushed through a process that\u2019s determined to fail\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ebadb093b0c433696e107f06df1a6c9\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Five years!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534b660a7d2649cdaa77abc600a4b39c\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what I see. Five years. And with that, Madam Speaker, I\u2019ll take alight and sit. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u00221cfdbba73ec24dfebfcc2ad076909ac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cfdbba73ec24dfebfcc2ad076909ac7\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to rise in support of the Spatial Planning Bill, although my credulity has been stretched listening to some of the speakers earlier\u2014not from this side of the House, I hasten to add. I was really making reference, as one would understand, to the other side of the House. I would really refer to the previous speaker, Tama Potaka, who referred to his \u201Cuneducated lens\u201D, and that pretty much sums it up. When we compare the input of the Hon Rachel Brooking, who has had in excess of 20 years as a resource management lawyer, and the many, many years this legislation has been in the creation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge and thank the extremely hard-working Environment Committee. I am not a part of that august committee, but I have had the great privilege of sitting on it as a substitute member of Parliament and to acknowledge the hard work of the Hon Eugenie Sage and, of course, the Minister, described as \u201Cinexperienced\u201D by Simon Court, the Hon David Parker, elected in 2002 and a Minister for two parliamentary terms, as well as being our Attorney-General. \u201CInexperienced\u201D\u2014interesting!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThis bill is going to tackle problems, such as lengthy delays in consenting development applications, high consenting costs\u2014even those for relatively straightforward development plans\u2014inconsistent and poorly written district plans, a lack of national direction and guidance to councils, and patchy, inconsistent, and ineffective environmental protection across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThis bill will allow for planning for positive outcomes. It will condense 100 district plans into 16 regional plans. It will allow new standardised conditions with fewer bespoke consents. Stronger, more consistent national direction is something that developers across the country have been pleading for for many years, and that is why I would like to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c58e529a7b7842e9aa1d12282630b448\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c58e529a7b7842e9aa1d12282630b448\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to take a short call on the third reading of the Spatial Planning Bill. The Spatial Planning Bill has a single function, and that\u2019s the creation and implementation of regional spatial strategies. This will do a few things, including national consistency across key aspects of all those strategies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to touch on the regional spatial strategies. They will help achieve the purpose of the Natural and Built Environment Bill, which is intertwined. And while the Spatial Planning Bill is a separate and new part of the resource management system, it\u2019s intrinsically linked to the Natural and Built Environment Bill. And as the Minister David Parker said in his opening remarks, regional spatial strategies will become a vehicle for the delivery of infrastructure in the right places and at the right time. These are needed to provide a clear direction to the private sector as well as local government and central government agencies like those responsible for transport and housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThe regional spatial strategy will be unique to the region. I\u2019ve subbed in on the Environment Committee on a number of occasions when this bill was at the committee stage and there were some good submissions, particularly around light pollution around the Tekap\u014D area. Those of you who have been down to that fantastic part of the country will be aware that Tekap\u014D and the surrounding areas are a light pollution - free zone which lies below one of the largest international dark-sky reserves in the world, only one of four such reserves in the world. So whether it\u2019s areas that should be protected from light pollution or areas with significant biodiversity or productive land or even the risk of sea level rise, this bill protects those areas well into the future. So it\u2019s a good bill, a pragmatic bill, and I commend it to the house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00229587c8cdeb104b31b77acd85fb761645\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229587c8cdeb104b31b77acd85fb761645\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a great pleasure to speak on the Spatial Planning Bill. I want to take up a couple of points that were just raised by Dan Rosewarne, the list member from Waimakariri, right on the southern border of my electorate. It\u2019s only a 3\u00BD hour drive from my house to that end of the electorate, and I\u2019m not at the top of my own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI take his point about dark sky reserves and spatial planning. Actually, Kaik\u014Dura is seeking a dark sky reserve because the Hutton\u2019s shearwater doesn\u2019t like lights at night and they fly into them and it causes all sorts of problems. All of those things were never thought of, of course, when lights or street lights were put in\u2014and still not even thought about today. KiwiRail has put in some lights that are quite disruptive to the Hutton\u2019s shearwater. They didn\u2019t do this deliberately of course; it\u2019s just that no one knows unless they\u2019re told, do they? The Hutton\u2019s shearwater only need them at a certain time of the year when they try to leave after breeding and their chicks have fledged. They head off out to sea. And that is the point, I guess, of spatial planning\u2014to get those things right at the beginning. But, unfortunately, things change over time and people aren\u2019t aware of those things initially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI think one of the great examples of spatial planning gone wrong is actually what happened with the red zones in Christchurch, where land was built on that probably never should have been, and, in fact, developers often pestered the council when the council really didn\u2019t want them to be built there. But the legal mechanisms to stop that were not available to them and we ended up with whole lot of housing and we know what happened in that area when the earthquake struck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIn my own electorate, we had similar issues with people under terraces and banks where the ground opened up, rocks came down, and those houses were then deemed to be uninhabitable even though they weren\u2019t damaged. So getting the spatial planning aspect of our Resource Management Act type of legislation is absolutely essential. However, it\u2019s not that simple, and I think while we don\u2019t violently disagree with this bill, we\u2019re not very happy. Of course, as you\u2019ve all heard on the previous bill, the Natural and Built Environment bill, they do go together and we do have to have spatial planning legislation. But there are concepts in there, as my learned friend Tama Potaka alluded to in a far more learned way than I could appreciate, about the different terms used in both of those bills and that they are not actually clear at all and open us up for, perhaps, what could be endless litigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI think we have to be careful when we put words into legislation that it\u2019s actually the words that are needed to make the legislation and get the outcomes that we need, not just paying lip service to them by adding them in. Now, an adaptation bill will come but spatial planning will be a part of that. We\u2019ve got areas in New Zealand that are susceptible to sea-level rise or in my case in my electorate actually in most of the Kaik\u014Dura Coast, went up recently, although some small parts of it went down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWe have the oldest site of known human habitation in New Zealand on the Wairau Bar\u20141280\u00A0AD, it\u2019s estimated, for the remains that were found on the Wairau Bar. That bar is a gravel bar with fish traps that were circular, and at high tide the water and the fish would flow and they close off the traps and then the tide would go out, and they\u2019d go and catch the fish. Those traps are above sea level today, or round about the level that they could have been useful 800-odd years ago. So we are in a situation where we don\u2019t know exactly what\u2019s happening in New Zealand, with such a dynamic coastline because of the tectonic forces that are at play there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo exactly how we deal with those particular issues\u2014we won\u2019t solve them all. We will find out that areas that we didn\u2019t think were susceptible to sea-level rise will be because of earthquakes, or those that we think that will, might not be because the earthquakes may lift that land up. We certainly know that that the Hikurangi subduction zone is likely to go at any point and there\u2019s potentially a magnitude 9 earthquake along that point, and it will push the land up because it\u2019s been dragged down at the moment. So we know that the sea level will change, but this piece of legislation doesn\u2019t necessarily make that a better situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe regional planning committees\u2014I think that\u2019s one of the real bones of contention that we have on the National Party, and we do stand for one person, one vote. We believe that all those people that represent us have to answer to us\u2014that is, the ratepayers and the voters in New Zealand. There is a move to lower the voting age to 16. Well, that\u2019s going to be of little used to the 16-year-olds when they don\u2019t have the vote for the people on those planning committees that will have an effect on their lives and the environment that they live in, and they\u2019re going to be living in that environment for much longer than any of us in this House. So what\u2019s the point of having regional planning committees with appointments that are not voted on? That does not stand up to the test of democracy We have to remember that going back for decades, over 100 years, people have fought and died for the right to protect our democracy, for freedom of speech, for freedom of expression, and for the right to vote\u2014one person, one vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThese planning committees do not meet that test. Why should we accept that? There may be a good rationale in the mind of the person who put this forward, but it does not mean the one person, one vote principle, the level of democracy that we have all benefited from. And while people might argue, and they often do, about members of Parliament and their councillors as to how good they are or not, they have an opportunity to make a decision to get rid of us or support us, and that\u2019s coming up on 14 October. We know we\u2019re all looking forward to that in this House. Yes, Shanan, I\u2019m looking forward to it too, and we just wonder how many people are going to be back here. I\u2019m certainly looking forward to 14 October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut when are the planning committees going to stand up for their opportunity? That is the ultimate test. We get the ultimate in a performance review every three years. We\u2019re not getting that with these planning committees. We have to sit up for that test, and so we should. I think every one of us in this House accepts that test. That\u2019s what we come here for. So why should we put in place a piece of legislation taking away the right for New Zealanders to judge the people that make the decisions on their behalf?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo I think that\u2019s a really poor part of this legislation and that is one of the reasons why we oppose this bill. As I said, it\u2019s not as bad as the Natural and Built Environment Bill, but it is bad. That said, I would like to acknowledge, as I did on the previous bill, the Hon Eugenie Sage, who chaired that select committee and has done a fantastic job. I thank the permanent members on the select committee for the work that they did. I came and went on that select committee. I had little to do with the Spatial Planning Bill, but I do accept and respect the work that the committee members did. I\u2019d also like to thank all the submitters that gave up their time to come along and submit on this very important bill. So while this bill is a good attempt, I do not support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002287d1a0c8d3684770a2038f3f37ecda48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287d1a0c8d3684770a2038f3f37ecda48\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As the final speaker for the Government on this side of the House, I support the Spatial Planning Bill in the third reading. I want to thank the fabulous contributions, particularly on this side of the House. I want to thank all the select committee members, the officials, and especially acknowledge the chair Eugenie Sage. On that note, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022616bc2518ef94f6fab52630e11a2270d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Spatial Planning Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000848\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000849\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 72, Noes 44.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a949bdc50c446e7be8e5f42ae129c54\u0022\u003EIntegrity Sport and Recreation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfd5e2e42f26466595037709c8975553\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002244210756c3854bc793d5e143bbd05022\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244210756c3854bc793d5e143bbd05022\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228edf671fdb9f4ed79d3d7a201a9fb754\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f262cf28c6449088a8937f7af9e1973\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Social Services and Community Committee for its excellent consideration of this bill. I was very pleased to see the committee report the bill back early, and that it has unanimously recommended that the bill be passed with some amendments to clarify and strengthen the bill. I also want to thank members of the public, including those from the sport and recreation sector, that submitted on the bill. The committee did receive a large range of submissions, and has taken them all into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am acutely aware of timings this evening, so my contribution in this second reading will be relatively brief in order to cover off a few of the changes that have been made. We will then obviously discuss them further in the committee of the whole House and the third reading stages that follow on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is just worth noting for colleagues in the House the functions of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Commission that this bill establishes. It is to promote, advise, and educate on integrity issues and threats to integrity within the sports and physical recreation sector; develop and issue integrity codes; prescribe policies and procedures for complaints management and dispute resolution; implement the World Anti-Doping Code and facilitate compliance with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations with respect to doping in sport; investigate suspected breaches of integrity codes and threats to integrity, and advise the Minister for Sport and Recreation on the state of integrity in sport and organised physical recreation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe purpose of putting this legislation before the House is to modernise the way that we deal with issues in our sport and recreation sector that are threats to integrity. That does include doping in sport, competition manipulation, bullying, sexual misconduct, racism, and other behaviours that undermine sport and recreation in Aotearoa New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting that the bill does disestablish Drug Free Sport New Zealand, and shift all of its functions, powers, responsibilities, and staff to the commission. I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge the excellent work that Drug Free Sport New Zealand does. The fact that it is being absorbed into this commission is no statement on that work. It remains important, and the people who do it do a great job\u2014on behalf of us and on behalf of sportspeople\u2014to keep our sport clean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe committee did make a number of changes, and I just want to briefly highlight those. First, they have recommended that the definition of \u201Cthreat to integrity\u201D in clause\u00A05 is amended to include attempted competition manipulation. This better aligns with what is done internationally, including by the Olympic movement. There were several submitters who noted that illegal sports betting was not referred to in the threats to integrity. In light of this, clause 5 is being amended to refer to sports betting activity associated with competition manipulation. This recognises that while the commission is not a betting regulator, certain prohibited betting activity can be captured by the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EClause 5 is also amended to refer to unlawful discrimination as defined by Part 2 of the Human Rights Act (HRA). This clarifies, for the avoidance of doubt, that the commission will need to interpret discrimination consistently with the HRA, which sets out those prohibited grounds on discrimination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe committee did receive a lot of feedback from sporting organisations around how codes should work. As a result, the committee has recommended changes to clause 19 of the bill, to articulate a clear purpose for the codes, which is \u201Cto provide for minimum standards of integrity that would be consistent across the parts of the sport and physical recreation sector\u201D that they apply to. Clause 19 is also amended to clarify that codes cannot apply to a single sport or recreation activity. These changes make clear that the intention is for codes to promote consistency across the sector, and address concerns about multiple codes leading to greater complexity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere was a strong theme in the submissions that we should make sure of a focus on safeguarding children, given the particular harms that children can experience in sport and recreation environments. As a result, the committee has recommended changes for the commission to be set up to appropriately handle integrity matters involving children and young people. There is a new clause 54B requiring the commission to have a child protection policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EFinally, the committee has proposed to clarify a range of consultation requirements for the commission in clauses 16 and 20. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. This is an important piece of legislation to ensure that all sport and recreation in New Zealand is clean and free from cheating, from drug manipulation, from competition manipulation, but it is also an important place for people to take their concerns and complaints. There have been many brave people\u2014particularly women\u2014who have taken complaints about how they have been treated in the sporting arena. They do not always feel that they have been heard properly. There will now be a place and a commission that does that. I strongly recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b651324e57c8483d8e222f8bd5e9f2b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b651324e57c8483d8e222f8bd5e9f2b3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. It is probably unfair to start a 10-minute speech at this stage and then interrupt it in less than two minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002205abcf92667a464292f7bd12827fc242\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002290c4e87e2f6a4c46a38fc017295e1ff0\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002211b8aab952f1467f9c664ee94f7fe950\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211b8aab952f1467f9c664ee94f7fe950\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, following the valedictory statement of Dr Elizabeth Kerekere, the House will suspend for the dinner break. I call on Dr Elizabeth Kerekere to make her valedictory statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8575ab2b63b45ea9490979d7c47d1d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8575ab2b63b45ea9490979d7c47d1d6\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE:\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. E tika ana kia tuku mihi ki ng\u0101 atua, ng\u0101 kaitiaki me ng\u0101 tipua e karapoti nei i a t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei w\u0101. Ki te hunga mate, koutou kua riro atu, koutou kua takahi i ng\u0101 tapuwae o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua t\u012Bpuna, ki a Georgina Beyer, Pat McGill, Aki Paita, Patsy Tamihere. E moe, e moe, moe mai r\u0101 i t\u014D moenga roa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ETahuri mai ki te hunga ora, Te \u0100tiawa, Ng\u0101ti Mutunga, otir\u0101 Taranaki Wh\u0101nui, t\u0113nei te mihi ki a koutou. Ka tuku mihi hoki ki ng\u0101 kaiwhakarite \u0101-mana whenua o P\u0101remata, Kura Moeahu k\u014Drua ko Ali Houpapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ETe M\u0101ngai, e te Mana Whakaw\u0101, ka t\u016B koe ki t\u014D ake mana, ki te mana o ng\u0101 iwi o Te Taihau\u0101uru hoki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all. It is appropriate to offer greetings to the deities, the guardians, and the powerful that surround us at this time. To the deceased, you who have passed on, you who have followed in the footsteps of our forebears, to Georgina Beyer, Pat McGill, Aki Paita, and Patsy Tamihere, sleep, sleep, rest in peace on your eternal bed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EI turn now to the living. Te \u0100tiawa, Ng\u0101ti Mutunga, indeed Taranaki Wh\u0101nui, this is a greeting to you. I offer thanks to the mana whenua facilitators of Parliament, Kura Moeahu and Ali Houpapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, you stand on your own mana, and the mana of the iwi of the western regions of the North Island.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, thank you so much for support and advice, especially over the past few months. I also acknowledge the former Speaker the Rt Hon Trevor Mallard, who once sent me a note in the House to say that my purple sequin jacket was \u201Cstretching the definition of business attire\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EShout-out to Parliamentary Service, who indeed are the best people supporting the best Parliament in the world, and especially my relationship manager Jane McKenzie and those who have supported my office as we\u2019ve transitioned. Ka mihi au ki a koutou, ko aku hoamahi, t\u014Dku wh\u0101nau me \u014Dku hoa, \u014Dku hoa katoa kua tae mai. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[I thank you, my colleagues, my family, and my friends, and all of my friends that have arrived here. Thanks to all of us.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EGreetings to my colleagues, my wh\u0101nau, all of our friends and community people who are here in person and watching online as we #PaintParliamentPurple one more time. I have gathered you here to tell you a story. It is a story of hope, of expectation, of hard work and very late nights, of laughter, and of tears\u2014not mine though; apparently, I\u2019m not allowed to cry. There is scandal, because no one is surprised that I would challenge the powers that be, but there is also betrayal, because the powers that be don\u2019t like to be challenged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EAs No. 4 on the Green Party initial list this year, I thought I was on a heart-warming two-part series, and it turns out I was on Survivor and I did not see The Blind Side coming. However, it is ultimately a story of triumph, because very few people ever get to be an MP. And I sit proudly on my seat up in the naughty corner, because it is an incredible honour to serve those who put me here, and I will work hard for them every day. Mihi atu ki Te Paati ACT for granting me this space to speak to you all here tonight. As I said in my maiden speech, change happens at many levels, and for some change, for takat\u0101pui, M\u0101ori, and rainbow wh\u0101nau, it can only happen here. And I\u2019m really proud of the things that I\u2019ve helped usher through, because real power and real change lies in community and with wh\u0101nau, where I come from and where I gladly return.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EIn 2020, I came in as part of the most-diverse Green caucus ever, and, with four rainbow MPs, we proudly claimed to be the proudest party in the proudest Parliament in the world. I continue to hold out hope for our next trans, non-binary, or intersex representative who will one day follow in the footsteps of the late and great Georgina Beyer. I came into the Green Party and eventually into Parliament after over 40 years of working for our people on Te Tiriti o Waitangi and kaupapa M\u0101ori things and over 35 years on youth development and rainbow issues. My focus has always been on our health and our wellbeing and for suicide and violence prevention. I led the M\u0101ori strategy as chair of Te M\u0101t\u0101waka, the M\u0101ori-Pasifika caucus of the Greens\u2014and shout-out to the incredible Te M\u0101t\u0101waka staff, who supported that mahi. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EA highlight was our meetings with the authors of Matike Mai and He Puapua to focus our efforts for the rights of tangata whenua, radically shift the way we make decisions together in this country, and to work towards a future our ancestors dreamt of when they signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi. We supported occupations around the motu including at Ihum\u0101tao, P\u016Btiki, Aotea, and Mau Whenua. We encouraged wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi to reach out so we could work alongside them, using our platform and resources to amplify and progress their kaupapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EOperation P\u0101tiki ki Kohup\u0101tiki Marae reached out to us through the Greens\u2019 Hawke\u2019s Bay Te Matau-a-M\u0101ui branch\u2014and welcome to both r\u014Dp\u016B who are represented here today. In February\u00A02022, Aki Paipper, known as \u201CTe Kuini o Te Awa\u201D, shared a vision to restore the mauri of the awa, and enhance the wellbeing of the people through the return of its original name: Ngaruroro ki Moko-t\u016B\u0101-raro ki Rangatira. We supported their petition, two full applications to the Geographic Board, visiting Hastings every month, and talking almost every day on the phone. In June, we celebrated that success. It was an exciting, exciting day, with the official renaming of Te Awa o Mokot\u016B\u0101raro. We were devastated when, only a month later, Aki passed away in her sleep. Her legacy lives on, and my office will stay committed to Operation P\u0101tiki in her memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EAnother favourite was when the wh\u0101nau of Te Waimana Kaaku, who are also represented here tonight, reached out to us a year ago. I was proud to host them here in Parliament. They shared their vision of their people with jobs and houses on their whenua and the devastating impact of the sudden halt of a joint hap\u016B-Government project that had promised\u2014or they thought had promised\u2014to bring their vision to reality. After I raised questions in the House, and arranged meetings for them with Ministers and their officials, they had their deposits returned, and the project looked set to resume. Now, those houses aren\u2019t built yet, but, again, we remain committed to supporting them until one day we\u2019re seeing those being built and the wh\u0101nau back home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EIt is in the rainbow space that we have been the most transformative Government. Shout-out to Rainbow Greens, who were with me every step of the way and several of whom are here in the House. In 2021, the Greens led the news at Waitangi for the first time, talking about takat\u0101pui rights and banning conversion therapy. My record-breaking petition was launched at Auckland Pride\u2014and garnered over 157,000 signatures in one week\u2014pressuring the Government to pass legislation sooner rather than later. I joined the Justice Committee for the also record-breaking numbers of submissions and hearings. I also joined the Governance and Administration Committee for the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021 to ensure that our trans, non-binary, and intersex wh\u0101nau could more easily change their birth certificates. We\u2019ve made progress for those people who are born here, but there\u2019s work to do on those who are born overseas. We will keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EOne of my single proudest things is putting the term \u201Ctakat\u0101pui\u201D into legislation for the first time\u2014in the Pae Ora legislation\u2014after so very long of researching, promoting, and advocating. To be able to do that was an incredible, incredible thing for me. My member\u2019s bill\u2014I put that in the biscuit tin, like, just around my maiden speech, and it got drawn just in time to exist. We\u2019ll see what happens in the next Government, but it was the Human Rights (Prohibition of Discrimination on Grounds of Gender Identity or Expression, and Variations of Sex Characteristics) Amendment Bill\u2014again, putting a stake in the ground in law for our trans, non-binary, and intersex wh\u0101nau. In a quick shout-out to the Human Rights Commission and the cross-party parliamentary rainbow group, we have supported the International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia and, loosely, through our respective parties, contributed to all the legislation that has happened in this area. So that was some of the great stuff. There are other things, not so great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EA few months ago, I had a falling out with the co-leaders of the Green Party which led to my resignation from the party and my retirement from Parliament. I don\u2019t know if anyone here noticed it, it was handled quite discreetly, and, actually, it was not fun. Day after day, week after week, month after month, I watched while increasingly unfounded and increasingly elaborate allegations were made about me. They also claimed that these issues were being resolved by some sort of process that they had under way. I categorically dispute all such allegations. So this email was sent to my lawyer from the so-called process team dated 7.14 p.m., Wednesday,\u00A03\u00A0May\u2014a full four weeks after the original incident. And I quote: \u201CAs previously discussed, please find attached draft terms of reference for the next steps in our process. You will note that the list of complainants are just Marama and James, this is because we have not received formal complaints from anyone else at this time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ESo to recap, no formal complaints, no natural justice, and never a process, let alone a tikanga-based one. I consider this to be an epic failure of leadership. I\u2019ve been a leader for most of my life and mentored many other leaders, especially amongst our young rainbow people. So here\u2019s some tips on how to be a good leader: if the staff, person, or MP expresses concerns with how they\u2019re being treated, address it immediately. Follow a good faith and restorative process. If a staff member or MP is bringing concerns about racism or other behaviour from other MPs and senior staff, perhaps address those issues. If allegations have been made about someone, perhaps talk to that person to clarify the facts before you start vilifying them in public. And lastly, if your organisation has a clear principle of non-violence, perhaps do not engage in ongoing abusive behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EMany people have asked, even after all this, why I still support the Green Party. I support the vote in the House, except of course for the therapeutic bill. But I\u2019m as committed to our charter principles of ecological wisdom, social responsibility, appropriate decision making, and non-violence, as I ever was. I support the Green kaupapa and policies\u2014several of which I helped write\u2014and use of M\u0101ori frameworks I created. As, in fact, the entire restructure of the party was based on a M\u0101ori framework I created. Some of the people I love and trust the most in this world are Green Party members, including my wife\u2014under duress\u2014and my staff, Kerry Peipi, and the former party co-convener Wiremu Winitana. I mihi to all the Green members from the across the country who are in the House here tonight, particularly to the other former party co-convener, Penny Leach, and her girls who are here all the way from Munich. Because I still think of this as my party, and one day I plan to be back. I\u2019ve got work to do, but I will never apologise for calling out racism, homophobia, and transphobia wherever it occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ESpeaking of calling out, like many people I thought the theatre of the debating chamber was indicative of relationships in this House. But, of course, it is not. The thing that most surprised me when I became an MP was how collegial it was, and we know we get most of the real work done in our select committees and cross-party parliamentary groups. I am such a big fan of the Health Committee. I am so proud to do that work, and it is the time when I most feel like a lawmaker, is in that space working with my colleagues. I have such huge respect for the chairs and the members of that committee. And just a shout-out to the staff who do incredible work\u2014we\u2019ve gone through 67 petitions in our job, and I have appointed myself as the editor-in-chief of all reports and papers that come through that committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EI also became co-chair of the Parliamentary Friendship Group for North America with my colleague Nicola Grigg, and I\u2019m a member of the Europe Friendship Group that involves hosting a meeting online with dignitaries across those regions. Last year, my highlight was visiting colleagues in six European countries in just two weeks, including seeing the European Parliament in action and listening to Paul Goldsmith play music of a Lithuania composer on a grand piano in Lithuania. Less fun was when our entire delegation\u2019s luggage went missing and it chased us across Europe for the last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EI was also part of the Parliamentarians\u2019 Group on Population and Development, and supported events by the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians. A highlight for me was the combined celebration we held last year for being the first Parliament in the world to get 50 percent women representation. But I am most proud of being chair of the Artworks Committee. Shout-out to Tasha Fernandez and the crew for their stellar work. We opened Te Papakura gallery and increased the representation of women and M\u0101ori artists in the collection with the purchase of six new major works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EThis is a workplace unlike any other. Being in Parliament leaves its mark on all of us\u2014like I never used to work with the TV on, but now Parliament TV has been the soundtrack of the last three years. Now not only can I recognise every single voice in this House without looking, I don\u2019t know how I will function without hearing the dulcet tones of Andrew Bayly or Grant Robertson, or hearing the Hon Ginny Andersen tell the Hon Mark Mitchell one more time, including today, how \u201Cthe 1,800 extra police will help New Zealanders feel safe.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EI have never taken this job for granted, because the goal was never to be an MP, the goal was to do what only an MP could do. Now I know how everything works I can operate better as an advocate in the future. I said in my maiden speech that I would work respectfully across the House and I hope that my colleagues have found this to be so, and that regardless of who is in Government after the dust settles, those MPs who remain will take my call if I ring. And to be clear, I\u2019m not starting my own lobby company\u2014only because none of the communities I represent can afford to pay me. After Parliament, I will put my energy back into my research and ensuring Pae Ora actually delivers everything it claims it will for M\u0101ori, Pasifika, women, rainbow people, people with disabilities, in rural areas, and with rare disorders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ENow, I promised a triumphant end to this story. When I became an independent MP, we heard the horror stories of previous independents who struggled without the machinery of their party. I aimed to, number one, be the best independent MP ever in this Parliament and, number two, to go out in style. History will decide the first and I would like to thank all of you here today for helping create the second. My colleagues, you are all welcome to join our party tonight. There will be food, drink, a cashless cash bar and dancing. Shout-out to my favourite band, White Chapel Jak, who have come down from Auckland to perform for us, because if you want to catch up with me, you will need to go on to the dance floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EFinally, as I like to say, why do we get up in the morning if not to change the world? I\u2019ve done that in every other part of my life, and with all of you I\u2019ve done that here, and I\u2019ll strive to keep doing it after I leave, because this is not the end of my story. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora huihui mai t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[Applause, hongi, and harir\u016B]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014Karanga Aotearoa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.04 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00222a58357e81d64ae585edc4af75baaca7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a58357e81d64ae585edc4af75baaca7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is resumed. When we broke for the dinner break, the House was considering the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c125c37bfb704c81afc1465a3267090b\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002239aa47c8d8474fe6b2eb435038e29dbf\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Spatial Planning Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002251acee7181df4e2ea323aec998d72554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251acee7181df4e2ea323aec998d72554\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Could I seek leave to correct the voting record for the Spatial Planning Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5984b9dfba74d918f55226a4949a00a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5984b9dfba74d918f55226a4949a00a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00222750e15aa5be4e9aae5757f1249b60f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222750e15aa5be4e9aae5757f1249b60f9\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE:\u003C/span\u003E Te Paati M\u0101ori, two votes opposed; Meka Whaitiri, one vote opposed. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1c9e4745745488a99ad92eaf049a95c\u0022\u003EIntegrity Sport and Recreation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2de4c6a1dc34f679ed3559cd93ee408\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000909\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002240256e168ff8480b9ec9bbd33f5d482d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240256e168ff8480b9ec9bbd33f5d482d\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am pleased to rise in support of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill at second reading, and to confirm that the National Party will be supporting this bill through its remaining stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI join with the Minister for Sport and Recreation in firstly acknowledging the collegial nature that the Social Services and Community Committee embarked on. I\u2019m not a permanent member of that, but I was quite heavily involved for this item of business\u2014well chaired by Angie Warren-Clark\u2014and the committee navigated some quite interesting, I think, aspects of this bill. It came to the committee in pretty good shape and I think it\u2019s come out of the select committee in better shape thanks to the very good submitters that we had\u2014and I want to thank them\u2014particularly those who submitted on what the bill actually did, and those people were overwhelmingly supportive of the idea of a sports integrity framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, by way of background, I think the genesis for this has been sort of twofold and the confluence of two sets of inquiries. One was the two Heron reports into aspects of Cycling New Zealand, first in 2018; and then I think in 2021 following the tragic passing of Olivia Podmore. Then, of course, also the Integrity Working Group\u2019s work that predated that second Heron report and was reported back to the Minister and Sport New Zealand in April last year. So the bill itself is really the product of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAlthough I think it\u2019s also fair to say that this was the story of two Olivias. Because while I think we all remember Olivia Podmore, I want to acknowledge and reference the bravery of another Olivia: former Commonwealth Games gymnast Olivia Jobsis. Now, Olivia Jobsis went public three or four years ago with quite stark revelations of her experience as an elite athlete\u2014Commonwealth Games gymnast\u2014revelations that included fat shaming; improper conduct, including sexual conduct; psychological abuse; and mental manipulation. She appeared before the committee with Gymnastics New Zealand, and that was a very, very important submission because Andrea\u2014the chief executive, Andrea Nelson; sorry, I should have known that\u2014and Sally McKechnie and Olivia Jobsis came and told us firstly about the profile of Gymnastics New Zealand, where 90 percent of the athletes are under the age of 12, and 79 percent of them are female.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThat really brought into sharp relief the importance of making sure that the bill was sufficiently robust and strongly reflective of child-friendly processes when we think about an integrity framework. I think, by and large, we certainly listened very carefully. I think the committee has made recommendations that do, to a large degree, reflect those concerns of both Gymnastics New Zealand and others where there are a high number of elite and pre-elite athletes who are nevertheless very young.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I mentioned the issue of those who submitted on the bill. But we had a number of submissions where there were concerns about aspects that the committee concluded\u2014and was advised\u2014were outside the scope of this bill. This related to the issue of transgender participation in sport, particularly women\u2019s sport, and the concerns on both sides of that discussion about the questions of participation being reconciled with safety and fairness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI think it was fair to say that we had tensions on both sides of that discussion that were not reconciled. Indeed, thankfully, I think the committee didn\u2019t need the Wisdom of Solomon because those issues\u2014important though they are\u2014are not being addressed in this bill. I think it\u2019s important to set on the record that that is the case, and it will be over to individual sporting codes to decide how best to deal with that within the guidelines that Sport New Zealand have provided already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut I do think it was emblematic of that discussion, a question that I asked a submitter from inside out, where I asked if it was possible to express concerns about fairness and safety of biological women and children in sport without being labelled transphobic, and, if so, how? That was a question that didn\u2019t get an answer. But certainly the person I was questioning acknowledged that that was an important issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIt is my hope that we can get to a point where we can have legitimate concerns on both sides of that argument raised without epithets being thrown. Unfortunately, if we look at social media and other aspects, that has, I think, got to the point where there are two discrete echo chambers and we need to fix that. Nevertheless, this was not the place to fix that. I want to acknowledge, though, that they were concerns and the sports integrity bill will not resolve them\u2014that is over to the sports organisations themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI was also very pleased to see some exemplars of what a sports integrity framework might look like from Sport Integrity Australia, because the Australian sporting authorities are ahead of us and we were given examples of, for example, Swimming Australia, a child safeguarding policy, a National Integrity Framework, guidance on the improper use of drugs and medicine. These are exactly the sorts of things that New Zealand sporting codes will have to deal with and I hope we don\u2019t have to reinvent the wheel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAs policy makers, we can be a bit like a kleptomaniac\u2014we can steal good policy where we see it globally. I say that because I do have some concerns about the cost of setting up a framework like this, albeit that the best way to invest in an integrity framework is to invest in education and prevention rather than investigation and sanctioning. I do hope that the body\u2014when it is up and running fully and has its codes in place\u2014invests most of its time in education and prevention, because that will be the best for welfare of our athletes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI do want to come back to the Heron report, because some of the things that we did here were about winning at all costs, measuring success by medals, and then sort of reverse engineering what\u2019s required to get there. I think what the second Heron report talked about was to say, \u201CWell, if you do it the other way around, if you get the processes and the framework right, medals will follow, success will follow,\u201D and I tend to agree with that. So let\u2019s use what excellent work Australia has already done and set that as the standard for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI want to attach myself to the comments of the Minister of sport in his second reading speech before the dinner break, around the excellent work Drug Free Sport New Zealand has done and that the building into the sports integrity body of the Drug Free Sport organisation is not a reflection that they aren\u2019t doing an excellent job. In fact, it\u2019s quite the opposite. I think it\u2019s an endorsement of that, because I think it\u2019s around that that the integrity body will be built and I commend the work they\u2019ve done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo, with those comments, the importance of safeguarding children, the importance of moderation and cost\u2014oh, and I think the third issue that was a concern to me at first reading was the voluntary nature of the codes when they came through, and I still have that concern. I think they were alleviated to some degree, but I think the integrity framework will work best when there is a very, very high level of participation and compliance by sports organisations to those codes. So I\u2019ll accept the need for them to be voluntary, but I think we should be watching that closely to ensure that there is a high level of compliance. But, with those comments, I\u2019m very pleased to continue to support this bill at second reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00226c6d5fa5ad1445d9a7b34d901b8c85c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c6d5fa5ad1445d9a7b34d901b8c85c0\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to this bill. As the chair of the Social Services and Community Committee, I do have to absolutely agree with the member who\u2019s just resumed his seat\u2014Michael Woodhouse\u2014on the collegial way that we worked across the matters that were raised with us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ELook, this piece of legislation is long overdue, I believe, and I really want to acknowledge the Minister for Sport and Recreation for presenting to us a piece of legislation that was pretty damned good in its first blush. We have done some work on it and made some changes and, essentially, where we\u2019ve landed, I think, is satisfactory for everyone. We had some really good advice, but certainly we had 183 submissions\u2014all groups or individuals\u2014and we heard from 19 submitters from Wellington or by Zoom videoconference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill, quite simply, is to strengthen the integrity of sport and recreation. It sets up an independent Crown entity\u2014a commission\u2014to do a number of things, and I\u2019m just going to run very quickly through those. There\u2019ll be between seven and nine members on this commission. Their work will include developing and issuing integrity codes. We heard about the anti-doping functions which will be collapsed in from Drug Free Sport New Zealand, which is really important, and, again, I put it on record as well how effective they have been. This is a sensible process and movement. They will be investigating and resolving integrity matters. There will be independent methods for resolving disputes, which is really important. We did some changes in there to ensure that those whistleblowers, or people who were making some commentary around what was going on in sports, were actually protected to do so, and it\u2019s very important that their confidentiality is maintained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThere is a lot that we tweaked with this bill, and one of the things that has been mentioned is around children. It\u2019s really important. Many of us here on this side of the House have worked in the child protection area, and we thought it incredibly important that we ensure that child protection is at the forefront of some of the policies that exist in some of the direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge that at times we heard from submitters in the community who were out of scope in relation to the gender identity of members playing sport. It became quite divisive at times, but I think that as a team and as a select committee, we worked well across that. We were able to listen to opinions, regardless of whether we changed anything in the legislation. We made very certain that girls and women were at the forefront of the work that we do, and we\u2019ve included changing the term \u201Crainbow communities\u201D to \u201Crainbow people\u201D. So, with that, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022f81191d7a3234f3c97a8b8578937b06c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f81191d7a3234f3c97a8b8578937b06c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, it\u2019s a pleasure to stand and take a call on this, the second reading of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill. I held the sport and recreation portfolio for only a very short time before it was passed to my good friend and colleague the Hon Michael Woodhouse, who was probably far better qualified to have it, having been a top-notch rugby union referee and also a very, very good halfback for the parliamentary rugby team as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut the one thing that became apparent to me very quickly on having that portfolio\u2014and it was a big surprise\u2014is that I had top-level sportsmen and -women come to me seeking meetings that were trying to deal with sometimes serious issues within their code, and I had top sports administrators come and seek meetings as well for exactly the same reason. The one thing that I worked out very quickly is that, especially when you\u2019re dealing in high-performance sport, you\u2019ve got very strong characters that have to be extremely driven to want to be the best that they can be and the best in the world in their chosen sport, but what this often means is that it can create conflict as well. So I think that the need, and a decision by us as a country, to have a commission in place to deal with some of those issues that sort of provides a neutral and unbiased place for some of those issues to be able to be dealt with is a very, very good idea and a very good move on our part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI think that the previous speaker highlighted drugs, and I think drugs now\u2014we\u2019ve all seen the stories where you might have an athlete that inadvertently takes some sort of even prescribed medicine that suddenly traps them in a negative or a positive test, whichever way it may fall. It\u2019s a complicated and complex world out there now in terms of how they\u2019re operating and competing, and I think that us as a country, in terms of maintaining our own integrity on the sports field\u2014because as Kiwis we like to think that we\u2019ve got a pretty fierce reputation around the world for being very, very tough competitors but also being fair\u2014I think that it\u2019s important that we continue to maintain and guard that great international reputation that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EAlthough I didn\u2019t sit on the Social Services and Community Committee and I didn\u2019t hear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202499b288b4b42498b31ea715243166b\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: You missed some fun.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0e3ab3145704da2958562dc2182aaaf\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: It was fun, was it? I\u2019m sure it was, because it looks like you had a wide range of submissions, and I\u2019m sure that on the select committee certainly that feeling of the fact that we\u2019ve got lots of fantastic sports administrators in this country who are deeply passionate about their codes or their respective sport, backed up by incredible athletes, regardless of what level they want to compete at. It\u2019s actually really important to make sure that they are supported and they\u2019ve got a place to be able to go that\u2019s safe, to be able to maintain those standards and make sure that their respective codes are operating in the best, most professional, and fairest way for everyone, whether it be an administrator, whether it be a competitor, or whether it be someone that\u2019s just involved in the sport as a supporter or, you know, more on the sidelines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo, look, I think that this is a very good bill. We are supportive of it. There were some changes made on this, I see, in the select committee process which were good changes, which certainly on our side of the House made it easier to continue to support the bill. I\u2019m very happy to recommend it at this second reading. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee73e0c4f8624148af581ea3c2937ab9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee73e0c4f8624148af581ea3c2937ab9\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. It\u2019s an honour and a privilege to make a brief contribution on the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill. As we\u2019ve heard, the bill establishes the Integrity Sport and Recreation Commission and it sets out its powers and its functions. The commission will be an independent Crown entity and it will have seven to nine members. What I like about the membership is that a minimum of two members must have experience and knowledge of Te Ao M\u0101ori and tikanga M\u0101ori, because I think that\u2019s really important in terms of our commitment to the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EAlso what it does is the commission has to identify integrity codes and it also includes anti-sports and anti-doping. I want to acknowledge the\u2014what? 180?\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222029f5c2a98f4c46b84b8a7640bedce9\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: 183.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc42354b11f848f2bb9ca1f190ddbef4\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014183 submitters, acknowledging that there were a lot of form submitters. But I want to acknowledge that there have been some discussions held in those submissions that, as a country, even though some of the things that were said were hard to listen to, we needed to have that conversation. And I want to respect everybody whose views were heard by the committee, but I think it was a place to have listened and have heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge Madam Chair and, of course, the member Michael Woodhouse, who has also made very good contributions in our select committee work, but also the work of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, from the rainbow community. One of the submitters said that they want to change the word from \u201Crainbow community\u201D to \u201Crainbow people\u201D. So I want to acknowledge those changes and I just want to acknowledge that the committee\u2014it has been said many times that the work of the committee is valuable in terms of changing the law. I know that there are some changes that are coming about into this bill, which is welcomed, and I welcome the conversations that we have on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EBut I do want to commend the Minister on his leadership and his passion about getting sports right for women and children and, basically, for Aotearoa. On that note, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u002217d676ae85fb4318afd6dedaccbd59b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217d676ae85fb4318afd6dedaccbd59b1\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I stand on behalf of the ACT Party, but, more importantly, for my two colleagues who are not here this evening to speak to this bill: Karen Chhour, who sits on the Social Services and Community Committee, and Damien Smith, who is our sports and recreation spokesperson, who also sat in on the committee during the hearings of the submissions for this, the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re going through all remaining stages this evening, so I\u2019m going to concentrate my second reading speech on a particular aspect of the select committee report and speak to the two Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) that my colleague Karen Chhour is hoping to have on the bill for speaking to at the committee stage. In the third reading, I will then look to speak to the other issues that have come out of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThere were less than four weeks for submissions, and we were told that 183 were received, with 19 being oral submissions as well. I\u2019d like to acknowledge all of those that submitted, both in writing and those that came to appear in front of the committee, whether it be through presenting themselves or through Zoom, which has been a great way to get people to participate in select committee processes. And I\u2019d like to, as part of my emphasis on one aspect of this bill, acknowledge those that submitted, including\u2014and I\u2019m going to quote here directly from the select committee report\u2014the \u201Csignificant proportion of submitters [that] raised the issue of the participation of trans people in sport.\u201D, and the concerns that were raised there around the fairness of participation. While others are concerned this bill will ultimately end up reducing the participation of females in sport, those submitters\u2019 concerns were determined by the committee to be out of scope. So, relatively, they were ignored because it was out of scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EYet the bill itself, when enacted, could cause a transgendered person to be eligible to compete in an event designed for females only, because of the discrimination factors about to be legislated into this bill. When there is a significant proportion of submitters, as has been reported in the select committee report, who have raised an issue around this, we need to make sure that we can in some way look to address that as fully as submitters would like. As a way of being able to do that, ACT have submitted two different Supplementary Order Papers for the next stage, the committee of the whole House, and they are supplementary order papers 410 and 411.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022151e03f6d1394f70ae98ea337caab977\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m just going to warn the member that if she were to refer to Speakers\u2019 rulings\u2014and I\u2019d encourage members to do that as they\u2019re writing their speeches\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 115/1: \u201CAt the second reading of a bill it has long been accepted that the broad intention of the bill, the broad principles of it, are a proper subject of discussion\u201D\u2014and, thank you, the member has done that. Speakers\u2019 ruling 115/2, \u201COn the second reading of a bill discussion must be confined to the bill before the House as printed.\u201D And we go on to Speakers\u2019 ruling 115/3, \u201C(1) A member may \u2026 refer to the subject matter of an amendment appearing on a Supplementary Order Paper, but it cannot be discussed in detail; that is a matter for [the committee of the whole House]\u201D. So I would ask the member to reflect on those Speakers\u2019 rulings, and craft her speech accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022458055f1c79f464aab3ea36bda9c6e52\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. ACT finds it troubling that a bill claiming to address sporting integrity issues fails to address a global issue of sports integrity\u2014that is, the issue of biological women having to compete in sport against biological males who choose to identify as women. Male puberty makes people on average significantly taller with greater muscle and bone mass, and this has actually been directly responded to within the Human Rights Act at section 49. This actually does make a difference to those who participate in sport\u2014and, depending on the sport, a significant difference; for example, if a person was weightlifting, if they were running, or even if they were swimming. An American college sportsperson who\u2019s a 6 foot 4 swimmer called Lia Thomas bounced from rank No. 462 in men\u2019s swimming to No. 1 in the women\u2019s code after transitioning. And New Zealand\u2019s own Laurel Hubbard, who transitioned at the age of 34, went on to win gold medals in an international weightlifting competition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis is not an issue of transphobia. ACT says people should be able to live however they want, if they\u2019re not affecting other people. This is an issue of fairness. Speaking as an athlete who has represented New Zealand on the international stage at multiple times, I understand the blood, sweat, and tears that goes into training for an event and goes into training to achieve the success of what it is that you\u2019re trying to get medals in or win competitions in. Luckily, the sport that I participate in is gender neutral and there is no issue there. However, I recognise that after literally years of training to become elite in a field of expertise, to have someone with such an unfair advantage come along, potentially to take that achievement away from me, is in itself unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo, when we\u2019re looking at what it is that has potentially been changed, we see that women\u2019s rights and actually women themselves have been added into the bill, but we still do not, within the bill, actually look to make sure that women are able to have safe spaces within their sport and be able to compete in fairness. The Human Rights Act 1993 at section 49 actually speaks to this, and, in their own words, not mine\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b93d46ab96b24a109a2ca16e31a3e9e1\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2e764ffc4847b582d7ba03704f876c\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it actually says nothing in section 44 shall prevent, quote\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acdd8200775242b69ec178272edc51ee\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227271117d0f924d25b752ec1f563779a3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, point of order. Sorry, I didn\u2019t hear the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256fe5bc5b1fd4ca0beaf4be4dab7d906\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The matter that is being raised currently is out of scope, and we have heard it for quite a period of time. The matter of transgender is not part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a22bad51c38d4000a7001261df8458a9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that. I have been reading through\u2014this is the first time I\u2019ve looked at this bill. I have noted, though, that there is discussion in the select committee report on rainbow communities. Now, I believe and I determine that that is close enough, though I\u2019m listening very carefully to the member. It is my ruling that yes, the discussion, which is consistent with a second reading focus on the principles of a bill, is in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a11ee21e5b14e3390ecc047ec55ed3f\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019d like to also point out\u2014I believe it\u2019s on page 4 of the select committee report where it is acknowledged, as I quoted at the beginning of my speech\u2014the \u201Csignificant proportion of submitters [that] raised the issue of the participation of trans people in sport\u201D. In order to be able to ensure that their voices are heard in the second reading speech, as part of the select committee report\u2014this is why the ACT Party are standing up for those particular submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAs I was starting to talk about, the Human Rights Act 1993, section 49, actually refers to nothing in section 44 preventing \u201Cthe exclusion of persons of one sex from participation in any competitive sporting activity in which the strength, stamina, or physique of competitors is relevant.\u201D And so that\u2019s why we\u2019ve brought it up today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI look forward, in the third reading, to speaking to some of the other points within this bill. But it looks like I\u2019m getting pretty close to my time, so I will finish it there and speak to my SOPs in the next stage, the committee of the whole House. Meanwhile, ACT does oppose this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5fd44c8fbb24f02b9a8fa65ccf1e142\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5fd44c8fbb24f02b9a8fa65ccf1e142\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to set the record straight because the ACT Party spoke to a multitude of things that have nothing to do with the bill. And part of why the select committee\u2019s report in relationship to participation in sports ruled all of those submissions out of the scope of the bill was because the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill does not cover or address who gets to participate in sports. And that is something really important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223342d48e90ae4d7684356fc0d35f2f8d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just\u2014Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5424f065af241e38cf31e38ba80e10b\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m responding to the ACT Party member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb5e5db913144159bb3dd94b67da8b2c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member will sit down. The member\u2019s comments are beginning to reflect on the ruling around relevancy, and I will ask the member not to do that but to stick to the substance of this debate and discussion of the bill. Please don\u2019t argue with me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e982d2105964c86a094e3d2abf7b41b\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Well, I will speak about the submissions that were out of scope and that were ruled out of scope by the select committee because what the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill sets up is an integrity unit. It has nothing to do with who participates in sports. That is why we considered the submissions that were speaking about issues regarding integrity in sports such as the wellbeing of athletes, such as the wellbeing of young people, such as the wellbeing of rainbow peoples. And as was noted by previous speakers, this was done constructively and collaboratively because the members of the select committee understood that we needed to set up an integrity unit that looked after the wellbeing of athletes. Something that, as previous members have noted, had been an issue for too long; that we needed a body that could look after the wellbeing of athletes to then allow the different bodies of sports to determine who gets to participate in sports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo one of the things that was noted in the submissions was the need to better address the wellbeing of young people, but they also spoke about how we needed to use precise language. For example, changing the words \u201Crainbow communities\u201D to \u201Crainbow peoples\u201D to then specify what we mean by that. We also looked at reviewing and putting in place provisions so that anti-doping rules were reviewed at least once every three years, because we recognised that anti-doping as a concept and as a regime does change over time and therefore those rules need to be changed over time. And I want to acknowledge as well that the field of sports is broadening to include things like e-sports. This is why it\u2019s important that we have an integrity unit that is also resourced to cover the broadening of the scope of what we consider sports. For example, anti-doping issues in e-sports can be different. Things like caffeine and Ritalin that are now used in a completely different scene are things that are now going to be able to be considered as part of this unit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think part of the other thing that we considered was about the potential make-up of this board and what the things are that we\u2019re looking at when we\u2019re thinking of what we want the Minister to consider when it comes to appointing members of the board. While it is good to see that there is consideration for M\u0101ori representation, it could be greater. I think we also could do better in terms of the representation of rainbow people. For example, having gender minorities being represented as well, because a lot of these issues are deeply, deeply complex. On the one hand, there may be the argument that there is not a huge number of people in Aotearoa with this level of expertise, but what I would say from the work in the community that we\u2019ve done is that there is. There is a huge range of people who are passionate and understand the needs of our sporting community. So we also need to tap into that and we need to develop that expertise as well so that we have the ability to have succession in this board in a way that enables all these diverse communities to be able to guide the integrity unit in a way that prioritises wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party is supporting this bill because we do acknowledge the need to have this integrity unit. We need to also learn from overseas examples such as Australia that has a similar unit, and what they\u2019ve done that has worked and what hasn\u2019t and keep an open mind in that regard. We need to also then commit to resourcing this unit so that it can do its work appropriately, because ultimately a lot of this will involve adequately consulting with different community groups. For example, part of what we\u2019ve acknowledged is that we do think it\u2019s important to add things like having national sports and recreation organisations and women and girls amongst the list of relevant stakeholders that the commission must consult. In order for this to be done adequately, proper resourcing will need to go into the unit so that that work in the community can happen, because we\u2019ve seen what happens when we set up bodies that are supposed to consult with different stakeholders. And if there\u2019s not enough staffing resources to do that at a community level, then it\u2019s the loudest and most well-resourced voices that then win when that consultation happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to honour the people who came and submitted, who submitted in good faith and with a clear understanding of the bill. I think the committee was able to identify really tangible improvements we could make to this bill. This came from a diversity of voices. I think this once again highlights the importance of the feedback from our communities about how legislation can be improved to centre the voices that are coming to Parliament. So the Green Party looks forward to supporting this bill, looks forward to continuing this constructive conversation, and pushes back against the comments from the ACT Party regarding what they believe is relevant or otherwise to bring up in Supplementary Order Papers later in the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00223ec48c8907c148afb2eec4bffa691d2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ec48c8907c148afb2eec4bffa691d2a\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of this bill as a member of the Social Services and Community Committee who worked long and hard upon it, and if I may I will begin by reiterating the comment made by various colleagues around the House that it was a most collegial working process. I particularly enjoyed getting into the minutiae with the Hon Michael Woodhouse, and I don\u2019t think that clause 19 will ever leave me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EAs has been said by Mr Woodhouse and also by our wonderful chair, Ms Warren-Clark, this was a bill that came to us in pretty good shape. We believe it left in better shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that sets up a commission that will look to guide and lead our sporting codes to create their own codes within their own disciplines, which will look to enhance the integrity of sport by setting up, essentially, complaints processes. So there will be codes of the principles under which people are to operate, and then complaints processes, accountability for offenders when they are found to be offenders, and protection for whistleblowers. The complaints process will be in an accessible form that will be appropriate for the often very young people who come before it. Making sure the complaints process will be child friendly, young people friendly, was one of the excellent changes the committee is recommending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWe came to this bill for the simple reason that there is a desperate need for it. We have already heard referred to in this House the tragedy of Olivia Podmore, and we have also had her colleagues bravely speak to us about their experiences of abuse and bullying within the codes described here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI am, as I have said before in this House, no sportswoman, but I am the mother of a young sportswoman, and one of the things that was very apparent to us was the real vulnerability particularly of young sportswomen in these disciplines who are, sadly, open to abuse. As someone who has worked on institutional abuse cases, it\u2019s often remarked that in any place where there is a strong hierarchy and little power to participants, there is an environment ripe for abuse. And the sad truth is that that does happen, unfortunately, in some of our sporting codes where it should not happen. Sport should be a matter of joy and pride that it is in most cases. I strongly commend this bill to the House and look forward to hearing further speeches upon it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002219b8c95b0cf645b3871f99b0615458e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219b8c95b0cf645b3871f99b0615458e9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Penk\u2014five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00220448235ca85b481893909559cc27d64e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220448235ca85b481893909559cc27d64e\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Well, it\u2019s been interesting, actually. The collegial nature of the discussion as Emily Henderson has just referred to has made me reflect that politics itself can sometimes be a team sport. I had thought I would resist the temptation to do that very New Zealand thing and make everything a sporting metaphor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0be7bc70928471cbb207d666dc27982\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Do it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc69244c53d84ec09c2a6613f36ecf31\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK, well, maybe\u2014maybe so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022861ec091502e42d08700d00f92d7fef4\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Who is he to deny the audience?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b35e2304c66548f2907b0ab3b72f433f\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I know, well, that\u2019s right. I\u2019d be surprised if there is any audience by the end of the five minutes but we\u2019ll see how we go. But, actually, it does seem like it\u2019s been a constructive approach. It seems as though there\u2019s been a lot of serious thought in terms of the detail, with a starting point that there was broad agreement about the desirability of establishing a commission. I did wonder, having not been part of that select committee process, why it was that it was the Social Services and Community Committee that it went to. I couldn\u2019t think of a more appropriate one\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208e5a351abae420381603b3962c1418b\u0022\u003EDr Emily Henderson\u003C/span\u003E: Because we\u2019re awesome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022162f09d898ac4e3185046947c9e40733\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Because they\u2019re awesome, I hear. Well, I was going to mention another select committee that it might have gone to, for example, Health, and I thought, well that kind of might be appropriate too. Sport in New Zealand is also big business at, you know, the elite end, if I can use that phrase, so in terms of even within the health sphere you know it\u2019s sort of the physical health benefits as well as costs, I suppose, in terms of injury, mental health, and so forth. So anyway, I didn\u2019t reach any other conclusion than that select committee was as good as any other. Some might say, \u201CIt was awesome\u201D, and they\u2019re entitled to their view of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut, in any case, sport is many things to many different people and it\u2019s a lot of different things to this nation of ours as well so I think it\u2019s right that we all take it very seriously for all those reasons. And if you look at the things that the commission is being set up to do\u2014and it\u2019s the establishment of the commission that\u2019s at the heart of the bill\u2014then it\u2019s clear that there are serious matters that do need to be considered and are worth the time of the House and are worth an independent body being established; an independent Crown entity, no less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, if you think about the kinds of issues that are going to need to be handled by this commission, they are actually quite complex and we\u2019ve had a bit of a flavour in the House tonight of what some of those might be. The commission\u2019s remit will, it seems, be quite broad. So the House, and indeed the select committee, doesn\u2019t appear to want to bind its hands too tightly in terms of the kinds of issues it will consider, let alone prescribe an outcome. But we\u2019ve considered tonight, even across the House, issues of safety and fairness, doping in sport, competition, manipulation, bullying, sexual misconduct, racism, and discrimination. And these are specifically set out as areas that the commission will be invited to prevent and address threats to integrity in relation to those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo it will be extremely interesting work actually, that the commission will be doing, and there has been a bit of guidance in terms of the procedural matters and, at the risk of turning even a bill about sports into something of a procedural justice matter\u2014I can\u2019t help myself, I suppose\u2014but, genuinely, if you look at the powers that are given to the commission, it\u2019s to allow the specified organisations to provide information or documents necessary for an investigation, it\u2019s prescribing reasonable and proportionate sanctions for breaches, and establishing a disciplinary panel; so all these mechanisms to say, \u201CWell, actually, if there are issues of fairness and integrity and discrimination, all these things that have been discussed, then there must be some powers for the commission to investigate these things to actually do something about it that\u2019s constructive and meaningful and worth the time of this independent Crown entity.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s obvious from reading the select committee report that the members have turned their mind to that and they\u2019ve wished to give effect to the intent of the Minister to allow a body to be set up that\u2019s going to be able to do some useful things in this space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThere are protections from retaliation or victimisation by an organisation if they make a complaint. So that\u2019s sort of a whistle-blower regime, and the closest I\u2019m going to come to the threatened sporting metaphor is that a whistle-blower, of course, has a particular role in the sporting context\u2014whether a referee or an umpire\u2014and, of course, the appeal rights to the sports tribunal as well is reminiscent of a captain\u2019s challenge in the world of rugby league, which I am very fond of, or video umpire or video referee, as the case may be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo these are good mechanisms that are set up to allow some integrity in the system, to give some serious weight to the role that the commission will play. We think they\u2019ve got a good remit. We think it\u2019s a worthwhile body to establish. We\u2019ll wish them well at the point that they\u2019re set up but for now at the second reading, National continues to commend the bill to the house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002284c57c964e024715bc52fea1715326d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284c57c964e024715bc52fea1715326d5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00229d178a9a429349c39f42c6e9b181d844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d178a9a429349c39f42c6e9b181d844\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Safer, fairer, and more inclusive sport\u2014that\u2019s something we can all get behind, and I acknowledge those members of the Social Services and Community Committee who have reached a pretty good outcome on this bill. They have heard from submitters who have approached these submissions with a lot of knowledge and goodwill, and have come back to the House with a number of really sensible changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis will be a short and simple call for what is a pretty short and simple bill, and it\u2019s a good one. It deals with the problem of how we make complaints in our sports systems, and prior to this bill, several reports into New Zealand\u2019s sport and physical recreation sector found that there is insufficient capability to deal with integrity-related issues, particularly the management of complaints within the system. That is an issue that this House needs to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe all need to have faith in our sporting system and the people who are participating in it, so the creation of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Commission is a great solution to that, and that has a wide remit. My colleague Chris Penk, who\u2019s just taken his seat, is right to comment that it is a wide remit. It includes threats to integrity, including doping in sport, competition manipulation, bullying, sexual misconduct, racism, and other behaviours that undermine sport and recreation in New Zealand. That\u2019s not things that any New Zealander wants to see in our sports, and so this solution deals with that issue in a way that everyone can accept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to conclude my comments by thanking those members of the committee who made a particular contribution throughout the process, particularly Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March and my colleague Dr Emily Henderson. Having an expert on the way that children engage with procedural law and with complaints in the room in a select committee is something that the New Zealand Parliament has benefited from, and I thank Dr Henderson for her contribution. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u002234c9c794c29147febbfe932b0a2e2a1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234c9c794c29147febbfe932b0a2e2a1e\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity just to take a short call on the second reading of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill. Given the kaupapa and especially the focus namely around sports and women, I just want to take a moment to acknowledge the recent passing of a wahine toa in the sporting field: Leanne Harrison, from Ngatokowaru in the \u014Ctaki electorate who was the president of the Horowhenua Netball Association and will leave a massive gap in the Horowhenua netball communities. Moe mai ra e hoa and my aroha goes to Erana, Anna, Bill, Justine, Michelle, and Jody. Thank you for indulging me, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThis bill, as we have heard, and the commission that will be established, will address and support integrity issues at all levels from elite sports to grassroots, the community sports, and everything in between. This bill, the commission will look after the wellbeing of all people who participate in sports\u2014all people who participate in sports, and that includes women, that includes our rainbow people, and that\u2019s what this bill is so good about. It makes sure it supports the wellbeing of all people who participate in sports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EAs a member of the Social Services and Community Committee, I want to thank, also, the submitters\u2014the over 100 submitters\u2014that submitted on this bill. I took the time to do that, but I also want to thank the officials that helped us work through it. Of course, the Minister, for bringing this important kaupapa to the table, and I\u2019m not just saying that because everyone wants the fill a space, I really do mean that; it\u2019s an important piece of legislation to make sure that we support, again, all people who participate in sports. As our colleagues around the House tonight have said, it was collegial for the most part, there was differing views on rainbow people, and I\u2019m really glad where we were able to land because, again, this bill will support all people who participate in sport, and that includes our rainbow, our takat\u0101pui, our women, and everyone else in between.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThe other thing I like about this bill is it protects the participants who raise integrity matters, and that\u2019s really important as well. The bill provides protection for participants and other people that make a complaint or provide information to the commission, and the bill requires that to be confidential information\u2014really key. So, again, I love that about this bill. I love that it protects all people that participate in sports, and I also love that this bill is not just for the elite, not just for the professionals but the grassroots as well and everyone in between. Great piece of legislation, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00224bce11667a5946fbb683c1600c19b26f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bce11667a5946fbb683c1600c19b26f\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to be able to rise and speak also in support of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill. While sport was a very big part of my life some years ago, it has been less so in the last few years, and so I was very happy to take my lead on this bill from my friend and colleague the Hon Michael Woodhouse. As we\u2019ve heard, Michael Woodhouse was a top rugby referee, and I have to confess there may have been times when I called his integrity into question when he may have been refereeing Otago versus Southland, and I didn\u2019t feel he had both eyes open at that time. However, notwithstanding that, I was very happy to take the lead from the Hon Michael Woodhouse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ELook, the purpose of this bill is quite clear, and it is to strengthen and protect the integrity of New Zealand sports and recreation. As, again, my friend and colleague the Hon Mark Mitchell has said, that\u2019s incredibly important to us in New Zealand, because we are known for being tough sportspeople but for being fair, and so this helps support that reputation and helps support the individual codes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESeveral reports did outline that the sector has insufficient capability to deal with integrity issues. As I said, in a previous life I was very involved with hockey at regional level and at national level, and there is never a lot of money and there is never a lot of resources. So I was particularly pleased with the work of the Social Services and Community Committee in making some slight changes around the fees, to ensure that fees would not be charged for complaints and investigations. I think that\u2019s a very enabling addition to the bill, and I thank the select committee for bringing about those small changes. I acknowledge that this could have perhaps gone to a number of select committees, but I do occasionally sit on the Social Services and Community Committee and I\u2019m sure that they were particularly mindful and respectful of the submitters\u2014the 183 submitters and those that made oral submissions. So I thank both the submitters but also the select committee for listening and giving consideration to those submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EMy colleague the Hon Michael Woodhouse has talked about how important it will be for the emphasis to be on education and prevention, because we know that mandating is much less successful than educating and preventing things before they happen. So the key functions of the commission have been outlined as promoting, advising, and educating on integrity issues and threats to integrity, and so it will be really important to see that come through strongly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EIt will be also important\u2014and, again, my colleague has talked about it, the Hon Michael Woodhouse\u2014that we don\u2019t have to reinvent the wheel on many of these matters: developing the integrity codes, setting minimum standards of conduct, prescribing policies and procedures. We are not the first to have engaged in this, and it will be really important that we don\u2019t waste time and money by trying to reinvent the wheel when there will be many good examples that we can pick up on. So I endorse the comments of the Hon Michael Woodhouse on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe ability to investigate suspected breaches of integrity in codes and threats to integrity\u2014being an external and independent set of eyes\u2014will be incredibly important as part of this role. It is very difficult in a country our size, in different sporting codes\u2014we all get to know each other very well, and so having that ability to have that external and independent set of eyes is going to be an extremely valuable thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EA couple of the other small changes that were made through the select committee process: putting in place the three-year review period I think is a very sensible thing to do, and also adding age into the list of characteristics, because as I think the select committee found during the submissions process, particularly around sporting codes such as gymnastics, and, I would probably think, swimming also, a lot of the elite or pre-elite athletes there are very young children. So, again, a very sensible change made by the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m certainly very pleased to join with all the other voices around the House tonight in supporting\u2014sorry, I accept that it\u2019s not a unanimous support but the vast majority of speakers supporting this bill. So thank you for the opportunity to participate, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u002213663e99dae24874837ec35f63d76e6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213663e99dae24874837ec35f63d76e6c\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to take the last call on this Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill second reading. This is my first time speaking on this particular bill\u2014and obviously it\u2019s talking about sports and I love my sports. I love my rugby and I played for the high school that produced the most All Blacks, and that\u2019s out at the mighty Auckland Grammar School. Then I became the sports doctor for Ponsonby Rugby Club, which produces the most All Blacks as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb914f53a6543bc884c08124842eb83\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, hang on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffdca3dc868b42d3b073578d19f7219f\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA\u003C/span\u003E: Hey, let me check that on Google\u2014I just did a quick Google check. But as a sports doctor that has worked with grassroots sports athletes for around 20 years now\u2014that\u2019s where my first medical career started and then shifting into elite athletes and high-performance units and international world cups as well\u2014it\u2019s a pleasure to see this bill come to the House. I thank the Minister for his work and our awesome Social Services and Community Committee members for their work as well. Also the many organisations that have submitted on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWorking with our athletes, it\u2019s always my goal to look after the health and wellbeing\u2014the total health and wellbeing\u2014of our athletes. I always follow the Te Whare Tapa Wh\u0101 model in order to make sure that that has a full scope. Seeing this commission to be set up and addressing the different issues that come through to our athletes, it is really important that we look at that full picture and I also want to acknowledge the youth and the children included in the commission\u2019s work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EBecause, as a sports doctor and as a GP sitting in a clinic, we often see our young folk come in and there\u2019s always a few questions to ask our young folk when they come in with sports injuries. It\u2019s \u201CWhich school do you go to?\u201D\u2014because that\u2019ll often point out what their training programme is like\u2014which sport do they play, and also their position in the team. All these factors play a huge role in whether it be physical injuries or the mental health issues that come with it as well. So overtraining, nutritional issues that come with it as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m so glad that this commission will be doing the mahi to make sure this provides another avenue\u2014whether it be our youth, our children, up to our adult, elite level\u2014it\u2019ll produce many of the health and wellbeing issues that we want to be addressed. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002202f4741026e04ec98eef596358166e48\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001010\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d763cbd03404450db009f1fa72f22ffd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df3d4789495344af8e11c97f4435dfdf\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d18b1e166b7e4dc1bec504e68f7b7faa\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 6, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd8fc97495a241c791861111da7ad5d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd8fc97495a241c791861111da7ad5d8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill. We come\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022284a9ad5cf7a4f2db9dc349e21594447\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205cc9e6e064642ef9dfb0d086403b260\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. The question is, then, that Parts 1 to 6, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002251d9921b8b98438bba7b8d05e172b540\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251d9921b8b98438bba7b8d05e172b540\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I would just take a brief call at this outset to run through, essentially, the framework of the bill and what we\u2019re trying to do here and just reiterate, as we have at earlier readings\u2014well, particularly the second reading just now\u2014the really good way in which the Social Services and Community Committee worked through this bill, and the excellent support provided by officials as we worked through it. It is clear to me that for the vast bulk of members of the House, they can see that this is the right thing to do to deal with a set of quite common complex issues, but ones that do interact with each other and provide a very clear framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo, essentially, Part 1 of the bill, as is normally the case, deals with definitional issues. There have been one or two changes made there which have been highlighted in the second reading. They are good and useful and constructive changes that will make interpretation of the bill significantly easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPart 2 is one of the meatier parts of the bill. It\u2019s the establishment of the commission as an independent Crown entity. I do just want to mention\u2014it was mentioned in Penny Simmonds\u2019 last call, I think\u2014that independence from the Government of the day, the structures of sport as we know them, is actually essential here. I, in the nearly six years of being Minister for Sport and Recreation, have been the recipient of an awful lot of correspondence about every level of sport that you could imagine, all of it heartfelt, all of it coming from a place where an independent voice, lens, and place is critically important, because, as Penny Simmonds noted, these communities are often very small and people do know each other, and it\u2019s very hard to get the perspectives that are needed. It\u2019s also very hard for people to raise complaints\u2014and I will come, at a later stage, in another reading, to talk a little bit about some of the people who have come forward and their courage in doing so. So that point of making it an independent Crown entity is, I think, a very, very important one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen, obviously, the series of functions which have been run through at some length in the earlier readings, so I won\u2019t go through them again now, but they are clear and they are important functions for the commission to do all of its job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen, Part 3 is about the codes. I know this was the subject of quite a bit of discussion both in the committee and from submitters. Striking that balance for the codes being both useful documents that can be applicable at different levels of sport, from the elite down to the grassroots, and ones that don\u2019t reinvent the wheel, has already been indicated by some speakers\u2014but that have enough meaning that they will be useful and people will know how they can work or how they can work through them. So there\u2019s a process to make the codes, which is through Part 3 of the bill, and consultation processes that are included in that, particularly bringing our anti-doping rules into this framework, having been in the previous Drug Free Sport New Zealand framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other parts of the bill, I won\u2019t go into in any great detail now, but I\u2019m very happy to answer questions around Part 4, where the powers and investigations and disciplinary panels are dealt with, and the way in which investigations happen. This is an important area because it will be very sensitive. It will need to be handled in a thoroughly professional way. That is outlined for everybody, as to how those processes work, all the way through. Then, finally, Parts 5 and 6 tidy up the various bits of provisions of other Acts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo I just wanted to give that broad introduction. I\u2019m more than happy, as is usual, to answer questions on the bill. Again, I thank all colleagues for their work on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00221fbe1f9007b44ada9756e982fc2d479e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fbe1f9007b44ada9756e982fc2d479e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I don\u2019t think we will be too long in our detailed examination of the bill. I do want to address the most controversial part of the second reading speech from Dr Leavasa, and his outrageous claim that the Ponsonby Rugby Club has produced more All Blacks than the Otago University Rugby Football Club, which is, as any rugby aficionado knows, the cradle of All Black rugby. Now, it\u2019s been a while since I\u2019ve had a look at it, but I think there were about five or six ahead. So we\u2019ll just let that lie there, but I think that could be a battle that Dr Leavasa\u2014I\u2019m not even a member of a university rugby club. I\u2019m a Sharks man, but there you go. I will defend the integrity of Otago Rugby.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, on a slightly more serious note, I was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d80051285e4461aa2f3bdd2cbd75f0d\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Forty-eight All Blacks from Ponsonby.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248219ed18e83445bb1ca3060aeca8f11\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Forty-eight? Well, there were 49, I think, from Otago University. If one counts those that played after leaving the university, then I think it\u2019s up to about 70, against a paltry 51 from Ponsonby. So there you go. Now, anyway, I definitely digress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI wanted just to address the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) in the name of Nicole McKee, and also something she said in her second reading speech, before I ask the Minister for Sport and Recreation a question about clause 21. I think it\u2019s going to be quite important. She said\u2014and I\u2019m paraphrasing\u2014that the bill will result in fewer women and girls participating as a consequence of its failure to address the perception of the ability for transgender participants in women and girls\u2019 sport. Now, while that might be an issue, and I\u2019m not undermining that, this bill is not going to make that worse. In fact, thanks to the amendments made to the bill by the Social Services and Community Committee, which have been approved at second reading, that risk is lower, not higher. Now, I think the SOP is in the name of Karen Chhour, is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a74076cd89734cb384d521db16ed5d44\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: It is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d6322b7d8af45afb897356a2ffbb3fe\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The SOP will seek to add section 49 of the Human Rights Act into clause 5\u2014the definition of \u201Cthreat to integrity\u201D. But the select committee has already dealt with that by the inclusion of Part 2 of the Human Rights Act: bullying, violence, abuse, sexual misconduct, intimidation, or harassment in sport or organised physical recreation. Now, Part 2 includes section 49, and section 49 is a carve-out for legal discrimination on the basis of sex, disability, and something else; I can\u2019t remember what it is. So the SOP is unnecessary because the select committee and this House have now already dealt with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EMy question, Minister, is around clause 21\u2014I think it\u2019s something that has troubled me since the bill was introduced\u2014and that is the voluntary nature of the codes. What\u2019s it called? The departmental disclosure statement talks about the integrity codes made by the commission, under clause 19, not being mandatory, and organisations will need to opt in for the integrity code to apply. This approach may be considered unusual, compared with other secondary legislation; however, it is consistent with other regulatory approaches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, we kicked this around. We didn\u2019t make any changes, as far as I can tell. So I would like an explanation about why organisations won\u2019t be bound by the codes, and the perceived risk that regional or national sports organisations or codes would just stay out, particularly if they had issues of integrity or betting infractions, a record of drugs. Why would they not want to be a part of that, and, that being the case, why not simply make it compulsory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022adde9b4a1df14edf854862c3425589eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adde9b4a1df14edf854862c3425589eb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I thank the member for raising this. As I indicated in my earlier contribution, I am conscious that this is one of the areas where there has been debate. I\u2019ll be completely transparent with the member. We debated it ourselves, as to whether or not we should be heading down the path of, effectively, mandatory codes, or whether it should be the approach, which we ended up adopting, that is in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI have several comments. Firstly, internationally, there is different practice in this. So there wasn\u2019t one thing for us to say, \u201CThat\u2019s what we should follow\u201D if we were looking at where other countries or other jurisdictions went. Secondly, we are at a particular juncture in this legislation, between the role of the State and the role of individual organisations and bodies. If there is a crime that has been committed, then, quite clearly, there are pathways, you know, for that to be dealt with. Where a law is broken\u2014it\u2019s not a question of a code, or anything like that\u2014it is a breach of the law, and the prosecutions, which you would expect that would follow from that, would follow from that, to take some of the examples that the member has given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut when we\u2019re talking about getting sports to adopt and genuinely own these, we fell on the side of saying, \u201CWe want sports to sign up to it\u201D. Now, I think the wording is important in clause 21 here, because once a sport has agreed to a code, it\u2019s bound by the code. So there is a binding effect once you do it. It\u2019s our view\u2014and certainly by the consultation we\u2019ve undertaken with sports\u2014that most sports want this. Most sports will be very pleased to sign up. Then once they are, as you go through clause 21(2) and beyond, you\u2019ll see that they are in fact bound by it at that point. So it\u2019s the point of entry into having the code, at which we have left that open. The experience internationally, what we\u2019ve heard from the codes themselves, indicates to us that we\u2019ve fallen on a line of, effectively, giving people something that they will have true ownership of, rather than feel that it\u2019s being dictated down to them, rather than it not necessarily working for them and their sport as well as it might. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe member notes, and we\u2019ve got that in the changed clause 22, that we now have the three-yearly review. In a way, I\u2019m actually very happy that that is now in the legislation, because that means we can see really this contestable space, which I absolutely acknowledge that it is\u2014we\u2019ll be able to review in three years\u2019 time whether we got it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00227d24259ce4c74ba999f075c1dd7293bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d24259ce4c74ba999f075c1dd7293bf\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the answer from the Minister for Sport and Recreation. It is true, for example, that if there is the commission of a crime that\u2019s unlawful under the Crimes Act, for example, then, obviously, there\u2019s a different process to be followed. But what we were hearing about in the Social Services and Community Committee were\u2014well, they were grey areas, but they were certainly very clear breaches of integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo in accepting, as I have, begrudgingly, that the code will be voluntary, I wonder, regardless of who the Minister of sport might be from November, if this Minister would commit to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e96ded917624327aff290f2aedb186d\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d1ece9b6d248989266db884cc8c74c\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t laugh too hard, you might get into trouble. If the Minister would commit to ensuring that, to use a sporting euphemism, some kind of score card is kept of the progress towards ensuring as many as possible of those sporting codes that have been the subject of questions about integrity\u2014whether that\u2019s behaviour or betting or drugs\u2014are actually signing up to the integrity codes once they\u2019re done. And if they\u2019re not, then this House might need to reflect on that and do something differently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI just want to note also in clause 20, the consultation has been extended\u2014and, I think, significantly\u2014to acknowledge the change in definition recommended by Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March to describe rainbow people, but also that women and girls who, frankly, putting aside any of the transgender issues, were very much the victims and the storytellers. And I think that it\u2019s going to be very important for them to be consulted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAnd the last thing I will say is I absolutely agree with the Minister in his comment about the review of the code at least once every three years. I think that\u2019s going to be particularly important in the first three to six years as we get this going. But as I said in my second reading speech, Australia\u2019s got some pretty good templates. I\u2019m sure if we ask them nicely, copyright issues notwithstanding, we could probably get a pretty good head start on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002293e24e82446c440585431a6a03bac95b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293e24e82446c440585431a6a03bac95b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member. There were just a couple more points to add to my initial response to him. The first of those is, when it comes to the anti-doping rules, which, of course, are being incorporated into this, they themselves are usually voluntary, but sports want to do them because their athletes\u2019 ability to participate actually relies on them being part of them, even though they\u2019re voluntary. So there is a consistency with the way we deal with anti-doping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other point is clause 32 of the bill does allow for investigations of a threat to integrity if the public interest test is satisfied. And I think that covers the point that the member was making about the area between the obvious criminal activity and what is perhaps the grey area that he mentioned. If the public interest is deemed to be sufficient, there is an ability there, beyond the code or anything else, for an investigation of threat to integrity. So, I think, with that, that I have sufficient confidence that the scheme is robust. But, as both of us have now agreed, the review helps us with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022758d6afbb002403fa1e799db4e4a2d9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022758d6afbb002403fa1e799db4e4a2d9d\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So, yeah, I just wanted to acknowledge the contributions regarding the questions about whether it should be mandatory or otherwise. But I wanted to focus on, I guess, as I alluded to in my previous speech, the challenges that our different sports bodies and governing bodies have in terms of having fit-for-purpose policies around e-sports, and I want to acknowledge the bodies in New Zealand who engaged in the creation of this bill. But, I guess, I wanted to get a reflection from the Minister for Sport and Recreation in terms of how we can ensure that we make this bill work for that scene when there are the broader challenges, both in terms of very new, frequent changes to the scene\u2014and it\u2019s a new scene, and the challenges they have in anti-doping are unique, right? So, I guess, I just wanted to get a reflection from the Minister regarding how we make this bill work for the e-sports scene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESecondly, I guess I wanted to get a reflection from the Minister, as well, regarding what he would say, I guess, to\u2014we had commentary from rainbow peoples and submitters who talked about the need for greater consultation and engagement, and who are often feeling under attack, often by misinformation, in these sorts of debates. So I guess I would like a reflection from the Minister regarding how he thinks this bill will further enhance the rights of rainbow people, of gender diverse people, women, and gender minorities as well. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220840f515124e43e5ae0f6c2993a39c25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220840f515124e43e5ae0f6c2993a39c25\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, and I also want to add to other colleagues thanking the member for his contribution as the bill has gone through the Social Services and Community Committee, and, indeed, on the last point that he\u2019s raised\u2014the changes Mr Woodhouse alluded to earlier\u2014on the definitional section around rainbow people, and then also in the consultation on codes and the seeking of views in terms of the establishment of the commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s a real step forward for us that this piece of legislation identifies groups that have been marginalised in the sporting and recreation sector and, very sadly, have been the recipients of bullying, of harassment\u2014people who haven\u2019t always felt that there was a pathway for them. I think what we\u2019re setting out here now is not just that pathway for them but a requirement on the commission to do the right thing and to be there and to listen and to bring that into their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EJust, if the Chair will indulge me just very briefly, one of the amazing things about the last three weeks with the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup has been to not only go to the events but all the talk around the community about sport. And, of course, as somebody who loves sport, for me it\u2019s amazing, and I\u2019ve always felt that sport has this extraordinary ability to bring communities together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve equally thought that if we exclude people, that means then they\u2019re not part of our community, so when we\u2019re having this moment and we\u2019re having this celebration, if some people feel excluded from it, then we\u2019re letting them down and, actually, it\u2019s undermining the strength of our communities. And so what I feel this bill does\u2014and, again, I thank the select committee for their work to enhance this\u2014is it really does provide a template on consultation, but also on the way in which they establish themselves to be truly open to hearing about everybody\u2019s experience and how we can make that better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo, you know, I think this bill will take a bit of work to get into full practice. It will require a very proactive effort. It will require making sure that the members of the commission\u2014and that\u2019s covered in clause 11 of the bill\u2014are able to take that on. It\u2019s a big job\u2014it requires the ability to understand law and children\u2019s rights and the different communities that we have\u2014but I think that\u2019s the right thing to do, to be ambitious about how that will work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd, as I say, there\u2019s some good templates out there, not just overseas but also the work that Drug Free Sport New Zealand has done. I think we can learn a lot from that, and they are being incorporated into what we do here. So, you know, it will require a lot of work. It\u2019s proactive, but it\u2019s written down in the bill, and that, to me, gives me confidence it\u2019ll happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00224df81d8016724bd5bfa8c349ec390bc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224df81d8016724bd5bfa8c349ec390bc1\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister for Sport and Recreation. Minister, I\u2019m going to speak to the two Supplementary Order Papers that my colleague Karen Chhour has placed on the table, and I understand, as well, my colleague Michael Woodhouse and what he was saying about feeling like it has already been added to the bill, because we actually speak within the bill about wanting to remove the discrimination issues that are apparent, including recognising\u2014anyway, what we\u2019re looking to do is have fairness for all. And we do note that within the Social Services and Community Committee submissions, there was, as reported in the select committee report, a significant proportion, I guess, of parents out there who are worried about the integrity of sport for their female children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EIt looks like the select committee have done a really good job in trying to tidy things up and make it quite clear. Michael Woodhouse has actually said, \u201CLook, we\u2019ve already got this within our bill.\u201D But I think there is a way that we can actually clarify it\u2014for those worried parents, the significant number of worried parents\u2014by actually just referring to a clause of the Human Rights Act that\u2019s already there. It\u2019s not like we\u2019re producing anything or creating anything; we\u2019re just putting it into the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, could I please have you just speak to me about why it wouldn\u2019t, and what is the reasoning for not using this as a way to alleviate some of the concerns of those parents out there? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e112481926734d30913d80ee88fd7b91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e112481926734d30913d80ee88fd7b91\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E I will be reiterating what a couple of other colleagues have said. This bill is not about who can and cannot participate in sport. That is not what this bill is about. It was never about that. It\u2019s about supporting and upholding and safeguarding the rights of the people who are participating in sport, whoever they may be. So I don\u2019t believe that the Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) put forward by Karen Chhour actually are either relevant in part to the bill itself\u2014it\u2019s certainly not necessary. And with respect to the member, I also do not accept that it\u2019s just a matter of clarity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI do find it somewhat ironic that these amendments are coming from a party who profess to believe in libertarian values and the State not being involved. Most sporting organisations in New Zealand apply rules about participation on the basis, usually, of an international guideline. That\u2019s normally what happens. It\u2019s the international rules of a particular sport. I have tried very hard over the last few years, whilst utterly believing in the importance of inclusion in sport and supporting transgender participation in sport as well, to not get in the way of sports making their own decisions about how they organise themselves, because, internationally, that\u2019s what they\u2019re doing. And it just seems very odd to me that the ACT Party thinks that the heavy hand of Government should come down and tell those individual sports what they should do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t support these amendments. They are completely unnecessary. They are only borderline even relevant for the legislation. That\u2019s not my decision and I\u2019m not taking it; I\u2019m just saying it\u2019s my opinion. I\u2019m choosing my words carefully because I don\u2019t want to step out of the rules of Parliament. But I think we all know where this kind of rhetoric comes from and what it\u2019s about, and I can tell you with absolute certainty it is not about the purposes of this bill. So, no, we don\u2019t support those SOPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8ca8fdb1fc14a9982c2b865d05732d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8ca8fdb1fc14a9982c2b865d05732d4\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m going to be in the unusual situation of both agreeing with the Minister for Sport and Recreation, partly, and agreeing with Nicole McKee, partly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dccc7b5d6e9f49d9b5a72f6188dcdde9\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: No, pick a side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225526d0a72c2149099f333ba57e11781a\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, so there\u2019s no side to pick\u2014I think that\u2019s the point that the Minister was trying to make. And to the degree that the amendments made by the Social Services and Community Committee to clause 5 is a belt and braces one, effectively, what Karen Chhour\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 410 seeks to do is to make it clear that the exceptions in section 41 are included in the bill. But there\u2019s no need to, because paragraph (c) of the definition of \u201Cthreat to integrity\u201D in clause 5 makes it very clear: discrimination that is unlawful under Part 2 of the Human Rights Act\u2014discrimination on the basis of sexual disability, according to section 41, is not unlawful, and, therefore, there is no need for the SOP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I am going to give the Minister a little bit of a rebuke, in my view, on the question of libertarianism and the heavy hand of the State, because, actually, one of the reasons why there was so much concern was because of an interpretation on Sport New Zealand\u2019s guidelines on the participation of transgender athletes in sport where the three legs to that are very important: participation, safety, and fairness. But those guidelines described participation as paramount, and that has got a lot of people worried that that means that the fairness and safety aspects of participation would be subordinate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI think those fears are legitimate, and, as I said in the second reading\u2014quoting my question to InsideOUT in the select committee\u2014is it possible to express those concerns without being labelled transphobic? We didn\u2019t get an answer. It\u2019s homework for us all, I think, to be able to have a moderate discussion on both sides of this argument without resorting to epithets. By the way, I should qualify it: I don\u2019t think that that was what the Minister was doing at all, and I wouldn\u2019t want to leave the impression that that was the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI want to finish by coming back to the earlier response that the Minister made in respect of the question of voluntary compliance with the code by pointing out\u2014and I\u2019ve got to find it in my scribbled notes here. It referred to clause\u2014was it 31? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea40e2f236d3423cbaa2d4b30004fa1c\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 32. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226afe135fc16848eca8543d7547aeb1fc\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 32, sorry\u2014clauses 31 and 32, basically. So clause 31 says that the commission may investigate anyone who\u2019s bound by a code, but then\u2014and I don\u2019t think I picked this up in the select committee process\u2014at clause\u00A032, the commission may also \u201Cinvestigate anything to which neither section 31 nor the anti-doping rules apply\u201D if, effectively, it\u2019s a threat to integrity and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3f180c7eca84f33a640f0641b3caab9\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the public interest bit, Michael\u2014yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e546ae6b79542c991cb4970b292d36e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it\u2019s in the public interest. So does that mean, therefore\u2014and I\u2019d ask the Minister just to clarify if I\u2019ve him right\u2014even though a sport may not be subject to the code or may not have signed up to a code, the commission may still nevertheless investigate a breach of it if it\u2019s in the public interest to do so? Because that\u2019s actually quite a big\u2014I wasn\u2019t aware of that, I don\u2019t think. But, if that\u2019s the case, that\u2019s going to be quite difficult for sports organisations not to sign up to the code. It\u2019s kind of a Hobson\u2019s choice at that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002276a23f1ee91b4467a786bad64c162f5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276a23f1ee91b4467a786bad64c162f5b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E I think I know where the member Michael Woodhouse is coming from, but I don\u2019t think it\u2019s the choice that he thinks it is. The codes are the codes, and they will govern the way in which sports operate and the standards that are expected of them, the participants will know where they\u2019re going\u2014you know, it\u2019s something that everybody will buy into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat clause 32 does is it creates something that\u2019s of a much higher nature\u2014I mean, the concept of the public interest takes you to a different place than the day-to-day complaints that might come through as a result of a code breach or an anti-doping rule breach. I just would invite the member to look down to clause 32(2) and then go through the list of things that the commission has to take into account as to whether or not there is the particular place and role for this kind of investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just reiterate what I said to him in my first intervention on this: I think this sits between the things that would be normally covered by the code\u2014the things that are automatically referred to the police because they represent activity that is in breach of the law\u2014and now we\u2019re in a space where there is a threat to integrity that is of sufficient seriousness for it to be regarded as being in the public interest for the commission to pursue it. So I believe it fits. It actually does exactly the thing the member was asking about, and I think it fits well into the framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a076712924a94958a4e4e8a97a08778c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a076712924a94958a4e4e8a97a08778c\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, thank you for your prompt reply. Although, you know, when you start politicking instead of actually listening to some of the issues that are being raised\u2014which are genuine issues that have been raised\u2014and the response is, \u201CWe\u2019re going to look at integrity, but not necessarily balance that out with fairness\u201D; that\u2019s exactly what the ACT Party are looking for. The moment you start talking about certain issues, you get labelled in certain ways, but our second reading speech even said, \u201CIt\u2019s not about transphobia; it\u2019s actually just about fairness in sport\u201D and addressing some of those issues of some of the submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the select committee report, Minister, it says on page 4\u2014the acknowledgment of women and girls, having been historically \u201Cgreatly affected by issues of discrimination in sport and active recreation.\u201D It goes on to say that clauses 16 and 20 have been amended to actually recognise women as being stakeholders within this arena. For that, we congratulate the committee for looking into it and also making those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe think that it could be stronger if the board could actually be made up of one female within that sport, just to actually take on board what is within the select committee report. It\u2019s about fairness as well as maintaining that integrity, Minister. It\u2019s not about having a go at anybody in particular or any type of person, but actually being able to have fairness within sport so that it goes hand in hand with the integrity. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00224cff2e7c51e14899b099355a0625c978\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cff2e7c51e14899b099355a0625c978\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to make a final comment about clause 50 and leave the Minister, and his officials, to be vigilant in making sure that when fees are charged, they are reasonable in the circumstances. Now, the Social Services and Community had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c759ae77366741b2b29f8697b4b20013\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Quite the discussion!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226239e380cb9f4289ba2f1143df70dfe6\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, for all the things that we had to deal with, it was actually a little thing that became a quite big thing and a cause of some tension at the end of the process. Maybe we were a bit tired and emotional that day, but we got there in the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EJust for the committee\u2019s benefit, I have had a little bit of experience of\u2014when there are health tests\u2014certain organisations charging like wounded bulls, frankly, and well above what I know are the reasonable costs for them. It was with that in mind that I wanted to sort of tighten up a little bit on the freedom to charge, because ultimately it\u2019s going to fall on either the athlete or the national sports organisation. We settled on subclause (2A), \u201CThe amount of a fee charged under subsection (2) must be reasonably related to the expenses incurred or to be incurred in relation to the testing conducted.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, that belies a great deal of discussion about what constitutes \u201Creasonably related to the expenses occurred\u201D. I guess in professional services, it used to be the old way\u2014used to be you\u2019d go one-third, one-third, one-third: one-third salary, one-third overhead, and one-third profit. Well, it\u2019s a lot higher than that now\u2014and the lawyers in the room will probably want to shrink a little bit. But the health sector can also do that and there will be some health tests involved in this regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI guess the homework for the Minister and officials is to make sure that there is a monitoring regime to ensure that there are benchmarks or some other kind of guidance for these expenses so that it doesn\u2019t get silly. That was the intention of the committee in including this clause, which is not dissimilar to subclause (2) of clause 49. It will be an issue, I think. I just want to make sure that officials continue to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022313ba2bd1dd14b1cbe9119c1fdd58217\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Look at the review though. We built the review in, remember.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b495de01c34b2ab2510245f76015d6\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right; we do have the review, and the review should include any inappropriate charging by stakeholders in the integrity framework, because that would be undermining integrity\u2014how ironic would that be? With that, I think that\u2019s basically what I wanted to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00223747f58b2d5d482d8ce662d1d5ba1766\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223747f58b2d5d482d8ce662d1d5ba1766\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I just wonder if you can clarify\u2014maybe we can put it on the record, because this is part of the concern, that discrimination that is unlawful under Part 2 of the Human Rights Act 1993, and Part 2 includes section 49 which we\u2019ve talked about extensively. But a proposed problem foreseen within the particular bill is that the commission may decide that discrimination on the basis of gender identity is a matter of discrimination and therefore it overrides section 49, especially as clause 14(2) of this bill refers to gender identity and expression. So can you just confirm, Minister\u2014if you are in the position to confirm\u2014that section\u00A014(2) won\u2019t override section 49 of the Human Rights Act and that that way we do actually get that fairness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e066af22b59f4f9884458af678431730\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e066af22b59f4f9884458af678431730\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E This is repeating material we\u2019ve already covered, but the Human Rights Act exists. This bill does not override the Human Rights Act\u2014it exists. What this bill does is to also\u2014as the select committee did\u2014recommend an amendment to clause 5 of the bill to ensure that the reference to discrimination in the definition of threat to integrity was to discrimination that is unlawful under Part 2 of the Human Rights Act. So I am repeating myself; it is what I said earlier. I believe that this bill does important things to grow inclusion in sport, and I believe that the Supplementary Order Paper that the member is discussing is jumping at shadows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82b19bd47b84468942469903871a561\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82b19bd47b84468942469903871a561\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 408 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022643eb61594f14701ab67b26d59c2a861\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022137157dac1694c56896925926bc21334\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022137157dac1694c56896925926bc21334\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Karen Chhour\u2019s amendment to Part\u00A02 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 411 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226720f53aaa8e446f8f87fe625bf7ad53\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002243ad0326ae3c45ff962fe12f0e239815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243ad0326ae3c45ff962fe12f0e239815\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out Supplementary Order Paper 412 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002217125851b5264ddc87e3743cba17da18\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002214a244839b4746d989179b7a13df32dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214a244839b4746d989179b7a13df32dc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Karen Chhour\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 410 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022474d231377cb47d7ac17d9b5d87a91f9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fe0c773026944439867b40f92536cf6c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 to 6, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 6, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001089\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001090\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225b308e15819d45529ff0a0347f5be7f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b308e15819d45529ff0a0347f5be7f5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275db23389c7b429a86c933d342da0343\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c9cbb4dc64440f0b63b89938fd506e6\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022884b90ce008a4349b877ed2a467ca76b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022884b90ce008a4349b877ed2a467ca76b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to begin by thanking a large number of people who have been involved in the development of this legislation. We undertook a piece of work over the course of the last couple of years around integrity in sport, and that involved a wide range of stakeholders, beginning with a piece of work that delved quite deeply into integrity issues, consulted very, very widely. We in turn then developed the integrity transition committee, that\u2019s being chaired by Don Mackinnon\u2014not to be confused with a former member of the House\u2014who is a well-known lawyer and sports lawyer, and supported by a range of other experienced people. I do want to just note the role here of Tim Castle, who is the current chair of the Drug Free Sport New Zealand board, because obviously they are being brought in here and other members of that committee. I particularly want to acknowledge the work of the Executive Director of that group, Rebecca Rolls, who has played a truly significant role in shepherding this legislation forward and working with all the officials from agencies across the board, including Sport New Zealand. I want to thank all of them for their work. I want to thank every member of the sporting and recreation community of New Zealand who took the time to submit, and who took the time to care about the issues that are in front of us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat we are creating here, I believe, is something that will ultimately improve the experience of a range of New Zealanders when they go about sport and recreation in their community. I think it\u2019s going to mean that some people stay in sport when otherwise they would have left. I think it\u2019s going to mean that some people, and I do not say this lightly, some people\u2019s lives will be saved by this piece of legislation that we are passing tonight. On that note, I want to\u2014and I did this, I believe, in an earlier reading\u2014I want to acknowledge Olivia Podmore and the family of Olivia Podmore. While I can\u2019t speak directly to issues that are currently before the coroner\u2019s investigation, I do want to acknowledge Liv and her family and the tragedy that surrounded that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI equally want to acknowledge all of those people who have courageously come forward to blow the whistle about things that have been happening in their sports, often women, often people who have been placed in quite difficult and vulnerable circumstances, who have put their hands up and said this is not right and it needs to change\u2014sometimes at the elite level of our sports and other times just at the grassroots. This bill creates an entity where those people can go. They\u2019ll be heard fairly, they\u2019ll be heard independently, and they\u2019ll know that something will happen. I don\u2019t want to raise too many expectations on the body, they\u2019re going to have a lot of work when they come together, but I do believe that place, that independent place where things can be handled well and transparently, will make sport better, will give people confidence, and, as I say, I ultimately believe it will also help save lives as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also worth noting at this point the issues that have been raised by the select committee again, one more time. This is a situation where the committee has added real value to what we\u2019re trying to do here\u2014picked up some of the more challenging issues around definitional matters, around the way that the codes will be worked on, and made sure that we have a better bill, and that review clause that allows us to be able to come back and look at whether things are working, particularly when it does come to the codes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge Drug Free Sport New Zealand again. Drug Free Sport New Zealand has been an extraordinary organisation to keep New Zealand sport clean. It\u2019s also members of the Drug Free Sport New Zealand family, those who\u2019ve been on the board, those who\u2019ve been on the staff of it, that have played an extraordinary role internationally, at the World Anti-Doping Agency in particular, and I think here about the likes of David Howman who played such an important role in its establishment. Drug Free Sport New Zealand has done a great job and from this bill\u2019s enactment onwards they become a critical part of this commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the current team there. As I said before, Tim Castle is the chair of the board, but also Nick Paterson who is the reasonably long-serving chief executive, who has done a tremendous job. Their work will carry on, and Mr Woodhouse raised this earlier, that the education piece is important. That\u2019s what Drug Free Sport New Zealand has been doing really well over the last few years, is actually getting out there among competitors, even starting with senior secondary school students who are at the elite level saying, \u201CHey, this is what\u2019s expected of you as you move through sport.\u201D That education piece now becomes part of the wider commission\u2019s work. But Drug Free Sport New Zealand, even if their name will disappear, what they\u2019ve done and the path they\u2019ve blazed on this is important, and I wanted to acknowledge that today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI also wanted to acknowledge the issues that the committee dealt with around children\u2019s rights. I absolutely agree with the work there and I want to acknowledge members of the committee who have supported us bringing that forward. Children in certain sports are made very vulnerable\u2014I think it was Penny Simmonds who said it before, you reach the elite level quite quickly in a number of sports, and they are the ones where we really do need to look out for children\u2019s rights as we go forward. So I think that work and the way in which the committee brought that forward is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe bill also acknowledges the diversity of our communities and I\u2019m very pleased, as I said earlier on in the committee stage, that we\u2019ve got a piece of law now that gives a good solid definition of our rainbow people that can be used to help guide the consultation that\u2019s there. It\u2019s important that those who are often marginalised are there, can see themselves, and see their place in there. Equally that we\u2019ve got a focus on making sure that we\u2019ve got people who have an understanding of tikanga and Te Ao M\u0101ori within the commission as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EFor me, this is a really important and significant day. As the Minister for Sport and Recreation, I\u2019m immensely proud of what we do in New Zealand in sport, as we\u2019ve seen in recent weeks and as we often see\u2014what this does is give me confidence that we\u2019re setting up a system where everyone gets a chance to be involved. No one should be excluded from sport and recreation in our communities. No one should feel unsafe when they are involved in sport and recreation in our communities. Everybody should have been included and have a pathway to resolving issues that they do not feel are fair, or that they do not feel they have been treated well, or their wellbeing has been looked after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESport, as I said before, brings communities together. What this bill does, I believe, is allow everyone to be a part of that community, and for that reason alone, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002205b415ba824246af8193c8d2bfc1bfc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205b415ba824246af8193c8d2bfc1bfc3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022adb59a2dce9642959ef072fea4f789db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adb59a2dce9642959ef072fea4f789db\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, the Minister for Sport and Recreation\u2019s speech has knocked several minutes off mine and I don\u2019t need to prolong the debate, except to say that I endorse all of the acknowledgments and the thanks that he has given and a great deal of the reflections that he\u2019s made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I have strongly supported is his efforts and his Government\u2019s efforts to improve participation and success of women and girls in sport, and it\u2019s been an appropriate thing to do, but, goodness me, he\u2019s been a bit lucky. He was very lucky that Caroline Drouin missed the penalty at the end of the world cup semi-final last year, and he was very lucky that Hannah Wilkinson didn\u2019t miss and set up the circumstances for what has been a spectacular showcase of women\u2019s sport in Australasia. We are now 72 minutes away from kick-off in the in the women\u2019s football Ashes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bac7eb2f7924af89cda80e1291a2cd4\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: This has not escaped me!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227053bccad1d9420fbb801db8a2a6b2e7\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014don\u2019t worry, I won\u2019t be going for 72 minutes, Minister\u2014and we will see that showcase again. It\u2019s just been a brilliant example of how, when a product as good as that is is brought to the attention of the public, the public will support it. I think there\u2019s a salient lesson for all of us in that. I mean, for sports nuts\u2014you know, I\u2019ll watch dog long jumping. I don\u2019t care what competitive endeavour it is; I\u2019ll do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296d5cc5b34974011af711f07afc2041a\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just see whether that\u2019s in the code!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e92661340b34c4786ae2f93c2fca7e8\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: It used to be a thing, apparently, in the 1990s. But we do need to bring, particularly, elite women\u2019s sport, obviously, to the forefront, and I think those two tournaments have gone a long way to doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s no candy coating the reality that for too many of our athletes and our participants in sport, there have been times when events have fallen well below the standard that we would expect, and this integrity framework will do a number of things, not the least of which will prevent\u2014and I appreciate the Minister\u2019s comments about that. Now, he talked about the education piece particularly in the context of Drug Free Sport New Zealand, but there\u2019s no doubt that the fear of getting caught and the serious consequences of getting caught with illegal substances has had a significant moderating behaviour\u2014maybe not for Tour de France, but, you know, everything else; I should say that under privilege, but for everything else I reckon there\u2019s a certain deterrent element there. So, education, yes, but deterrent is important, and I think that I would like to see that with the integrity codes for non-drug issues, because if I reflect on some of the anecdotes that have been provided to me and to Mark Mitchell when he was the spokesperson, there did seem to be a downplaying or a denial or a contextualising of unacceptable behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAlso, we\u2019ve seen incidents where individuals who were perpetrators\u2014for want of a better term\u2014popped back up again in what is a very narrow ecosystem in New Zealand sports organisations. I think it\u2019s really important that as we implement our integrity codes and work hard to prevent, there also has to be a significant consequence for those who breach those codes. Now, for sport that might be a life ban\u2014you know, it doesn\u2019t actually need to be monetary or punitive in the traditional sense. People in this country love their sport, and if they knew that their errant behaviour, that fell below the crimes level that the Minister was talking about, may lead them to not being able to participate in the future, either as athletes or as coaches or volunteers, then I hope that would have a moderating behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut I agree with the Minister\u2014I said it in my second reading speech\u2014prevention; education; coaching, effectively, of what are appropriate standards; and then processes for dealing with disputes and breaches, as we aspire to, will I think, see a much, much higher level of integrity in our games. As Mr Robertson said, there is a lot of work to do. This isn\u2019t the beginning of the end; it\u2019s the end of the beginning, to quote a famous politician, and I wish him all the best for the seven or eight weeks he has left in that role before there may be a change, but whoever\u2014whoever\u2014is in Government after 14\u00A0October and whoever is the Minister after then, the Government can be assured that this is a framework and a bill that has, I think, widespread support and will continue to be implemented whatever happens in October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022be0f5e23d4324cabaf757f7aa9f67409\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be0f5e23d4324cabaf757f7aa9f67409\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Given the member\u2019s comments on the Tour de France, perhaps it\u2019s fortunate he\u2019s not attending the Rugby World Cup with the parliamentary team this year!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00225ca60def837146f0ad0c7a47cefd4702\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ca60def837146f0ad0c7a47cefd4702\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m going to take a very short call on this bill, but I want to acknowledge the Minister for the shepherding of this bill through the House and our officials for all the support they have given us. I have to say that this has been a very important piece of legislation to work on. I do agree this will save lives. It will also prevent, I believe, so much harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI think back to when I was a little sportsgirl playing soccer, and then I played hockey, and I did surfing, and I did diving, and I had a whole pile of sports. One of the things that we do in this country as Kiwi kids is we play sports, and I\u2019m delighted that we are going to put the grassroots protections in place as well as the elite sports. No longer is it going to win at all costs, now it is going to be about making sure we win and we win well, and our people are taken care of. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc14e3668a354cf98d9f4f6d42e1dbe6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc14e3668a354cf98d9f4f6d42e1dbe6\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E I will be brief, in the acknowledgment that there is a game that people want to get to tonight. But, look, I only worked with the Minister for a short time when I had the portfolio, but there was no question, and you cannot doubt not only his passion for sport but his passion for making sure that our codes, our sports, our sportspeople, the families involved, and the community have got a framework that actually makes it a safe place for everyone, and I think that he has been committed to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHe has brought a piece of legislation to the House that he has found broad party support for, and although he got up and he said\u2014and he alluded to the fact that he feels like this piece of legislation could save lives. And that may seem funny in the context that it\u2019s an Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill, but he is absolutely right. He\u2019s absolutely right that this is going to provide a safe place and a backstop for someone to be able to engage with\u2014and we talk about high-performance sport, and we know how much pressure comes to bear on these high-performance sportspeople. A lot of it they put on themselves, because that\u2019s why they\u2019re there\u2014they want to be the best\u2014but there\u2019s pressure and issues right through all of our codes, whether it\u2019s grass roots right through to high performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I just have to say that we haven\u2019t spoken about it that much in the House tonight, but a lot of the social issues that we deal with as a country\u2014if we could get an increased engagement in young people, particularly in sport, then we could actually provide strong role models and mentors, we could give them somewhere where they feel a part of something, and it could actually go a long way to getting them on to a positive track and not a negative one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EAnd so I just want to acknowledge the Minister. I want to acknowledge the Minister for staying committed and focused on getting this bill through and being willing to listen to and engage in cross-party discussion and debate on the bill so that we can stand in this House tonight, and I\u2019m very happy to support the third reading of this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u00227822cc82b33f4d11adcbcc08d1d6d74c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227822cc82b33f4d11adcbcc08d1d6d74c\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. It\u2019s always an honour and a privilege to make a contribution in this House, but especially in the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill. This bill is about setting up the Integrity Sport and Recreation Commission and sets out its powers and functions. I thought what I would do is I would actually describe what the bill defines as \u201Cthreats to integrity\u201D. So threats to integrity include competition manipulation; corruption and fraud; use of prohibited substances, which is doping; abuse, including abuse of children; bullying; violence; harassment; intimidation and racism; and all other forms of discrimination. So what the commission will do\u2014I felt that that needed to be said, because that\u2019s the focus of this bill, and that\u2019s why a commission is set up to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003ESo the commission, their roles and responsibilities\u2014their seven to nine members, which will have two people who have knowledge and experience of tikanga M\u0101ori\u2014are to, one, promote, advise, and educate on integrity issues and threats to integrity within sport and physical recreation. It will engage with participants in the sport and recreation sector on integrity issues. It will develop and issue integrity codes, including to set a minimum standard of conduct. Of course, it would prescribe policies and procedures for complaints management and dispute resolution. And, of course, it will implement the World Anti-Doping Code and facilitate our compliance to it as a country. With the bill, as we\u2019ve spoken about before, it will review codes in three years, and the Minister for Sport and Recreation will review it within five years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve just finished the Netball World Cup, and I can\u2019t finish my contribution without acknowledging the Silver Ferns who, unfortunately, came fourth. But Tonga, the Tala\u2014the Tongan netball team\u2014came eighth, and I just want to congratulate the Tongans on that. And the Fiji Pearls were 14th in the in the Netball World Cup. And I look forward\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a798cf5d2349d297192de194af2e59\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so the Tongans beat the Fijians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a10cb432bf0431796f3920f1b656415\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A\u003C/span\u003E: Just saying, you know. And I just want to acknowledge everyone that\u2019s contributed into this bill, particularly the Minister, because integrity is saying what you\u2019re saying and doing what you\u2019ve said, and you\u2019ve done that, Minister. I commend this bill to the House. M\u0101l\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00222f9bd7ff68d2482b9c2dc0e9b1d11b57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f9bd7ff68d2482b9c2dc0e9b1d11b57\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand on behalf of the ACT Party and my two colleagues Karen Chhour and Damien Smith, who have been part of the select committee process going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWhen I stood to stand for my\u2014stood to stand! When I stood for my second reading speech, I spoke to one aspect of this bill and promised that in my third reading I would speak to other aspects within the bill as well. I\u2019d like to start off with some of the positives that we can see in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAll sports face some sort of doping or match-fixing issues and this bill is hoping to make those issues administratively tidy. I think that that is really quite important and a good aspect of this bill. We do have the World Anti-Doping League, and in fact I\u2019ve been a part of having to comply with some of the rules and regulations around there. So being able to pull what is the drug agency right now into a new portfolio actually sounds like a really good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe also like the idea about the addition of the word \u201Cpeople\u201D and the removal of \u201Ccommunities\u201D. So we\u2019re no longer talking about rainbow communities, but rainbow people. It actually becomes that we do integrate everybody, not as a community as such but as individuals. And in a lot of our sports, that\u2019s what we\u2019re dealing with, individuals in sports rather than communities in sports. So we agree with that change as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESome sports also face challenges, such as being called out on bullying culture in some disciplines, and some disciplines are worse than others, especially when it comes to our children. Hearing, over the discussions tonight, that there was some expert commentary, especially from Emily Henderson, who has worked really hard with children, to be able to put that concept into the mind, to upgrade the bill to make sure that it is fit for purpose when we\u2019re dealing with our kids\u2014some of them in some of the disciplines actually do need to make sure that there is somebody looking after them, looking over them, and it looks like this will look to address that. But ACT still has concerns about the bill, hence our opposition at first and second readings and continued opposition as we come into this, the third and final reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWhile there are some aspects of the bill that we agree with in what they are trying to achieve, we do not believe that creating more Government bureaucracy is actually going to achieve what is needed here. The bill creates a central bureaucracy that writes integrity codes and then it acts as the investigator as well as the judiciary on those matters. It even decides penalty or redress and the costs of implementing their desires is also maintained by them as well. It reminds me of New Zealand Police in the firearms section where they write policy, they administer it, they enforce it, and we have issues there when you just have one agency trying to do all of that work. So we do have legitimate concerns around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EIf individual sports don\u2019t want to participate in this, we\u2019re told within the bill that they can opt out of participation. So that\u2019s good to see that that\u2019s in there. But we do note that there was a time when New Zealand Rugby was fined $280,000 and they actually look set to lose $600,000 of their funding because they hadn\u2019t met the 40 percent gender diversity quota for the make-up of their board. So, again, we do have a little bit of concern that if people do not opt in to the code, there could be some sort of penalty\u2014hopefully, not financial\u2014for not doing so. ACT is sceptical that one-size-fits-all and centralised solutions do not always work. So ACT is sceptical of this approach, especially when it gives sweeping powers to the commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EMore importantly, it has not recognised the significance of women and girls in sport, especially at a time when we do have the women\u2019s football world cup running here. It is strange that women and their plight for fairness in sport has actually been totally ignored in this bill. But we are pleased that women and girls have been included in the bill at select committee. But really? Just as stakeholders and that\u2019s it? We could have gone further there and made sure that they have a representative on the board, but the Government has decided that women don\u2019t need that place there. So it\u2019s important that women are not left out and that\u2019s our view there. ACT did recommend a Supplementary Order Paper that would include them, but, as I mentioned, Labour have turned it down. ACT also want to protect women\u2019s sports. Hence our other amendment directly incorporating section 49 of the Human Rights Act into the bill. I say it\u2019s for clarity; it\u2019s actually for the parents of young girls out there in our community who are seeking the clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe bureaucracy that is coming from Labour at the moment is just absolute madness. We do have integrity issues in sport, but we also have Sport New Zealand and we have High Performance Sport New Zealand as well. And rather than creating a whole new layer of bureaucracy there, why are we not just sending people in to teach, to learn, to be a part of these two organisations to ensure that integrity is well and truly embedded within those two organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EInstead, we\u2019re just looking to create more bureaucracy, more taxpayer money being spent in areas where it could have been lightened if we\u2019d utilise what we already have instead of creating this whole new centre to look at sports. We don\u2019t need another bureaucratic arm. We don\u2019t need another commission. We have so many of them. When we\u2019ve put lots of costs, lots of taxpayer money into establishing a whole lot of commissions, and we have worse outcomes occurring for New Zealanders at the moment, I don\u2019t see how spending more money is actually going to make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EIntegrity in sport absolutely needs help, and we have two foundations that are already set up at grassroots level. If we offered assistance to those foundations, we could actually have an impact because they already know the business. We\u2019ve done quite well on the world stage in all of our sporting codes without having to have a centralised commission telling us what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and what the punishment is if we don\u2019t. We have been successful in our own right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWhat we need to do is protect the people, protect the sportsmen, sportswomen and people out there and especially our children. On the issues determined to be too hard, like the transgender participation in women\u2019s sports that I mentioned, the answers throughout the select committee report actually shows that it was an issue. If we are to have a commission, then we need to deal with the issues and stop shying away from being able to talk about them; not doing something about them and placing the emphasis back on to international settings. If we\u2019re going to have a commission deal with the issues and stop referring back to those international codes, we need to, if we\u2019re going to use a commission, actually look at New Zealand regulations for New Zealand sports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI started this third reading speech by commenting on some of the good things that this bill can achieve. But the reality is it\u2019s just another bureaucratic arm of this Government telling New Zealanders what they can and cannot do, how they conduct themselves in sport, and how to cause dysfunction among existing agencies. We cannot support this bill on that basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002220a12e1119304ac6908d0c8d34312350\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220a12e1119304ac6908d0c8d34312350\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Every now and then, a representative from each party gets up and congratulates our sporting bodies for their successes overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut if we scratch the surface of our speeches, there are massive underlying issues with high-performance athletes coming to us as representatives, and to our Government bodies, highlighting that there is a crisis when it comes to the wellbeing of our athletes. I want to acknowledge Olivia Podmore and her wh\u0101nau for their advocacy and bringing this to Parliament, and for the many other athletes and sporting bodies that have advocated for this bill to finally\u2014almost\u2014come to fruition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I find the ACT Party\u2019s comments to say things like that we\u2019ve done well and have successes overseas, and to then brush off the need to have a unit to look at threats to integrity, frankly, dismissive of the voices of the athletes who have been calling for Government to act on this. This is about setting a unit that will look at ensuring that we have fit-for-purpose standards and regulations to look after our athletes. To call it things like \u201Cbloated bureaucracy\u201D, as ACT often calls it, is completely out of line with what this bill is trying to do. More than anything, it really shows that they\u2019re guided, more often than not, by headline-catching sound bites that have nothing to do with the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIf the ACT Party was so concerned about representation of women in the board of this unit, they could have supported our Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) to actually have gender balance in the board rather than just throw out sound bites for social media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut I want to commend the Minister for bringing this bill forward. I want to also acknowledge our officials who worked really constructively in the select committee\u2014our Social Services and Community Committee\u2014who worked in a really, really constructive spirit to improve this bill and of the submissions that we\u2019ve heard. I want to also thank the Labour Party for supporting my SOP to ensure that the rights of rainbow people were being considered as part of the make-up of the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think this will ensure that a broader range of perspectives and rights are considered, particularly when we\u2019ve seen how anti-doping provisions have been weaponised against trans people\u2014which ironically end up then disproportionately impacting cis women\u2014it\u2019s really, really important that we get these provisions right. So I want to thank the Labour Party for their support and ensuring that we have great protections to get this right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFinally, I also want to acknowledge that as this bill passes, we\u2019re going to need to resource the unit adequately to ensure that this unit\u2019s able to consult with the stakeholders that are listed in this bill. That will be key to ensure that we get it right. I particularly want to acknowledge that with the e-sports scenes, this will be critical because it is a growing scene. It is one where we have literal stadium-sized audiences watching e-sports athletes, but massive challenges in terms of substances that are being used by the athletes that are not currently actually considered by the public as substances that would have performance-altering effects. Having a unit that is well resourced will ensure that this is tackled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBecause, as the National Party members talked about, sport can play a huge role in improving social cohesion and bringing us together as communities. So therefore we need to consider the wide range of sports that are out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThreats to integrity, as defined in this bill include racism, and I wanted to pay tribute to the Manukau United Football Club, who released a report recently on racism in football. I think there\u2019s been many bodies that have talked about threats to integrity in many different ways, and it\u2019s great that those bodies will now be able to engage with those threats to integrity now with the unit that is going to be set up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I think if we all continue working constructively, based with evidence, and guided by the people affected by this bill, we\u2019re going to have a brighter future and improve the wellbeing of our athletes. So the Green Party looks forward to commending this bill and seeing its passage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242db68c1749243e69f405cf1f856713f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Um, the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfcf39cfad33449cba4afb3759d044a1\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: Anae.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b24b374a92ca4fe5a2e5c75308ef6abb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Anae Neru Leavasa. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226d234f9cbd8b4078926c93de8b625f46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d234f9cbd8b4078926c93de8b625f46\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you\u2014thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af5a45c7024d41b7aa3bcf45aff10d99\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was expecting Jamie Strange.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c622207d02414d919ae6390cd1fddccd\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s OK. I subbed in\u2014on the field, so thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c90bf7046062494a9692639995f73b1b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good sporting analogy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f3033a20fe4f2a8210ba38c33592e5\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! So it\u2019s great just to take a brief call on the third reading of this bill, and I just want to thank the Minister Grant Robertson for answering some of those questions during the committee of the whole House and, again, thanking my colleagues in the select committee for your awesome work and the awesome submitters that came through, through that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI just want to focus my brief comments on the sports anti-doping functions that will absorbed into the commission, and I just want to acknowledge the work of Drug Free Sport New Zealand\u2014their tremendous work, not only with athletes, but also with health professionals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EDuring my years as a sports doctor, I\u2019ve been very thankful to Drug Free Sport New Zealand for their work in training and education for us health professionals and providing the care to our athletes. When you\u2019re looking after sports teams, you get athletes messaging you any time, 24/7, in regards to anything that they\u2019re taking, whether it be medicines or supplements, so I thank Drug Free Sport New Zealand for providing those resources that we can always recheck and providing that resource for our athletes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EOne other thing that I want to mention as well is the independence of the commission, because I\u2019ve seen other teams, when players do make complaints, those players are dropped from the team. So having this independent avenue for our athletes will make a huge difference\u2014and also to keep it confidential when integrity matters are raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019d be pretty sad to see, whether it be grassroots sport or even elite sports\u2014seeing some of our rugby teams and the countries that they represent make complaints and then get dropped and they\u2019re not seen at the world cup. I won\u2019t mention countries, but it\u2019s really said to see, so having this provision in this bill will make a huge difference for our athletes. On that note, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022da3e7f95999f40cea46c6bbb921866b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da3e7f95999f40cea46c6bbb921866b7\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a great and glorious evening when I can stand to support a Government bill, and today is that evening. I\u2019ve got time. But I\u2019ve got to scaffold some of those comments, some of those tributes and congratulations to the Minister, noted athlete, for this Government\u2019s support of the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup and many other successful events recently. Not just the best women\u2019s world cup ever\u2014so far, three games to go\u2014but maybe the best world cup ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EOver the past 30 years, there\u2019s been a number of integrity issues across a wide variety of sports organisations in New Zealand\u2014basketball, canoeing, cycling, rugby, even dragon boating in today\u2019s news. We\u2019ve collectively let a lot of people down as a country, especially with the management and resolution of complaints and integrity issues. But establishing a focused commission to raise awareness and engage and ensure integrity in my view is a very persuasive idea, subject to delivery in a fiscally, culturally, and socially prudent manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EOne issue that some people forgot to raise during the select committee process, but I think is absolutely necessary to opine on today, is an exemption, a retrospective application to a rugby match between the Te Aute first XV and Rotorua Boys\u2019 High first XV in 1993, when a young Billy Weepu, brother of Piri, Karl Te Nana, and myself lost 23-19 to a Chris Grinter - trained team. Chris Grinter was the principal and coach of the Rotorua Boys\u2019 High School that day, and continues to be the principal today, whereas my rugby career is a distant memory. We scored three tries to one, but still lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019ll remind all of those here in the House today of the absolute focus, integrity focus, in my whanaunga over there from Takanini and also Hamilton\u2014great city. I know about the absolute focus on integrity in first XV rugby and the Maadi Cup, and this type of commission I hope will help to educate and help to grapple with some of those issues that are affecting the various schools but, more importantly, the young woman and men and their teams and coaches involved in those particular well-known competitions, the 1A in Auckland and the Maadi Cup.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENow, I appreciated the phrase \u201Cthreat to integrity\u201D enunciated in Part 1, and the careful definition of this, and I certainly hope that that sort of definition continues on to other pieces of legislation that the current Government promotes. The lack of support for athletes\u2019 wellbeing is well documented, as is the need for change, and the select committee has worked hard to address some of the issues that our party has raised along the way, such as vague wording and set-up costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EPerhaps a couple of conclusory and summary comments: No. 1, sports is a fantastic way to get kids engaged\u2014young kids and old kids\u2014and I think back to school and doing things after school. There\u2019s plenty of examples throughout the world in far-flung places like Iceland, where the teachers were schooled up in how to teach music and how to teach kids, and maybe that\u2019s something\u2014no matter what colour we wear in this House\u2014that we can support more of through teacher training programmes and teacher training colleges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe second one that I\u2019d like to make a comment on, just in passing, is the physical head injuries that people in contact sports are suffering\u2014it\u2019s an absolute concern. It\u2019s something that our health and social systems should carefully consider more of and support those athletes who are suffering from those quite damaging encephalitis injuries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe third thing\u2014and with a nod to this evening\u2019s game\u2014is the celebration of female athletes. No matter what the level, this is something that I\u2019ve absolutely appreciated an increase of and encouragement towards and support, whether it\u2019s the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup or the Saturday netball down at an Minogue Park in Hamilton West, which is the best place to grow up and also the home of the national secondary schools rugby and netball champions, Hamilton Girls\u2019 High School. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002229f14241de1443f0b4827c927ee06305\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229f14241de1443f0b4827c927ee06305\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member for not reminding him it was a five-minute call, so thank you for adapting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022365b2816a9b24182a990b3d27019dda3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022365b2816a9b24182a990b3d27019dda3\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I rise again to take a short call on this matter, and I too want to congratulate the Minister, whose championing of opportunities for women and girls in sport I have greatly appreciated, even though I am probably the last person of this House who will ever take advantage of any of them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI want to speak briefly on the matters that were raised by my colleague from the ACT Party earlier, Nicole McKee. She commented that she sees this creation of a commission to deal with complaints and challenges to the integrity of sports that occur from time to time in sporting disciplines\u2014that she considers this to be over-bureaucratic, if I can paraphrase, \u201Cnonsense\u201D that is going to take up too much time and money, and the better approach would be simply to educate our sports organisations out of bad behaviour. Would that we could\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b86846c15c7d4c34a1d3fa8cbc9c4a9c\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Tell me about the bad behaviour. Give us some examples!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022425297ad898a4d5f9fe89cf36c4b565a\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: We have had too many occasions unfortunately\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f871676a364dc88df51497c1cdde83\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Give us one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2c303e7cf4c4d54ab97633370c8d419\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got a comment coming from across the House from a member from the ACT Party who appears unaware, so let\u2019s talk about some of those behaviours. In any organisation where you have hierarchy, when you have big disparities in the power between those who are working, those who are young sportswomen\u2014and in particular, I\u2019m thinking of the young gymnasts that we have had worldwide and in New Zealand come forward to talk about the physical, emotional, and sexual abuse to which they were subject by coaches to whom they did not feel they could speak back. And we have had those examples again and again and again. Where we have well-meaning sports organisations which are largely run by volunteers, the risks that you are going to get inappropriate and unsafe behaviours develop over time becomes worse. Our sportspeople have said, \u201CWe need an organisation to independently review and assess what is going on and to police this behaviour\u201D. This is what this bill sets up, and I am very happy to commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022b56579b53534483ebe72a068b9af93b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b56579b53534483ebe72a068b9af93b1\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I too would like to put on record my sadness that the ACT Party have confused integrity with bureaucracy, and also to thank the Minister who has really shown great integrity himself in his approach to the sports portfolio in recognising that sports is another avenue for young people to be able to achieve excellence and fulfilment in their life, and particularly for young women. What we have seen with the FIFA success is the money, the pressure, and the opportunity. So an estimated $200 million worth of benefit to New Zealand, 20,000 extra tourists, but also we can see the pressure of high performance sports and the opportunities for countries like New Zealand when there\u2019s already conversations about potential future Commonwealth Games. And certainly, as the MP for Taieri, I can see the opportunity around our upgraded sports facilities at Tahuna Park. So it\u2019s very timely this bill is here tonight with the semi-final that we\u2019re about to play, and ironic that ACT should suggest comments about not supporting women in sports when, in fact, the event funding that has led to us being able to host FIFA would be cut under an ACT-National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy real point is that this legislation can\u2019t come soon enough, because, when we\u2019re looking at the nature of sports and young sportspeople, it\u2019s inherently physical. There\u2019s physicality. There\u2019s also the influence of drugs or doping and the vulnerability. And the third element is that really intimate relationship between coaches and young participants. So it\u2019s really important in order to keep the integrity of that and the safety of our young people that we need an independent commission. I\u2019m so glad that we have the support from the other side of the House. The list of those codes that have experienced problems that Tama Potaka mentioned also includes gymnastics. This can\u2019t come a moment soon enough. I want to thank the Minister for what he\u2019s done for women\u2019s sports and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00228a18ca5fdd664c66ab74abd817ef48da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a18ca5fdd664c66ab74abd817ef48da\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to rise in this final reading to speak in support of the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill. Can I thank the Minister for Sport and Recreation for the very open debate that we had on the mandatory versus voluntary, in the committee of the whole House. It was something that we had flagged that, as a party, we had some concerns around, but I think that we were given a very full explanation and an ability to think a little bit further on that. And I think that in looking at this in hindsight, the fact that they have fallen on the side of voluntary rather than mandatory has been a sensible decision, particularly recognising the value of having buy-in from sports codes rather than mandating. So I thank the Minister for his openness on that particular point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI think too some of the points that he bought up reinforced that, while it will be voluntary, there will be some fairly significant mitigating aspects of that, not the least being that there is that public interest test where if it is deemed to be sufficient, regardless of whether you\u2019ve bought in or not, there will be an ability for the Integrity Sport and Recreation Commission to be involved. So that\u2019s certainly a mitigating fact. There is also the fact that around doping in sport there are aspects of that that are mandatory because of the international sporting body requirements. So that, and the fact that this can be reviewed in three years\u2019 time to see how it\u2019s working, all, I think, gives sufficient comfort to consider that falling on that side of voluntary was the right thing to do at this time. So thank you for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EJust reflecting on how this encompasses and then broadens out from the Drug Free Sport New Zealand\u2014disestablishing that, morphing it into this much broader commission\u2014I was reflecting on what sort of secondary benefits we might get from this now being broader. I looked at things like collation of data, the ability to track trends across sporting codes, and the ability to share best practice. You know, I think there will be secondary benefits that come from this that we perhaps haven\u2019t even thought of. That is not in any way diminishing the very good service that we have had from Drug Free Sport New Zealand and the functions that they have undertaken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI was thinking back, as we were speaking on this, to just how long ago it was that I was introduced to this as a coach. I think it was when I was coaching an under-18 team, so it would have to be in excess of 15 years ago. It was an under-18 hockey team. That the drug-free aspects were brought into that level, on that age group, and normalizing it at that age group, allowed that education component of it. So I am a great believer in things not being compulsory to be mandatory, and to put the emphasis on the education and prevention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to go on at length with this, but there is one point I do want to make\u2014and I know we\u2019re all very keen to be able to watch, perhaps, the semi-final across the ditch. At the risk of jeopardising trans-Tasman relationships, I have to say that I am rooting for the English team, and for one particular reason: they are the only team left with a head coach that is female. In fact, even at the eight team part of the tournament, they were the only team with a female head coach left. I remember that we had these challenges in hockey of being able to progress female coaches through, and I\u2019m not sure whether it\u2019s heartening or disheartening to see that, actually, this is something that\u2019s obviously on a global scale. I know we\u2019re speaking a little bit broader than this bill and a little bit broader in matters of integrity, but it is nonetheless a very important matter of women\u2019s coaches being valued and progressed in women\u2019s sport. So for that reason, when we are able to watch the semi-final in about 20 minutes\u2019 time, I will be cheering for the English team. With that, I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002228da753cebdb45aaa0beafd5415faa90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228da753cebdb45aaa0beafd5415faa90\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take the final call tonight on the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill, and can I thank the Minister for his work, particularly to promote women and girls in sport. I want to just note my wonderful sister who actually could have ended up playing football for New Zealand if it wasn\u2019t for the fact that she did one of her knees while playing in America. She didn\u2019t have the opportunities as a youngster than so many of our girls do today, so I\u2019m so pleased to see that progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI want to pay particular attention in my short call tonight to the importance of protecting children in sport and acknowledge one of the submitters, a wonderful organisation based in my electorate of Nelson called Safeguarding Children. I want to acknowledge their founder and leader, Willow Duffy, who does remarkable work with sports organisations across New Zealand to address their child protection policies and ensure that they are doing everything they can to protect child in sport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe have seen, unfortunately, incidences in previous years and decades where historical issues have come to light that are unacceptable in terms of their treatment of children. There are a couple of changes in the bill that I do want to note that specifically resulted from their submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne is around amending the Children\u2019s Act to ensure that the new commission has to adopt and report on a child protection policy. So I want to give a shout-out to Willow Duffy tonight, because this is the policy that she is always in my ear about for every organisation that works with children, and I know that she will be very pleased to see this change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other change in the bill that came through that I also want to acknowledge Safeguarding Children for was ensuring that there are age-appropriate dispute resolution processes involved and if young people do bring allegations that there is child-friendly processes. Having worked in this area myself, alongside people like Willow, I know how important it is that when young people raise allegations that these are taken seriously and in a sensitive way to ensure our young people are supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is an excellent bill. It will help progress the importance of sport in our country in ensuring that integrity, that safety, and that appropriate mechanisms for keeping people involved and engaged in sport are adhered to in years to come. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0ef52386c2b4a1eb680eb4716fd5294\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Integrity Sport and Recreation Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001192\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022377e1c8903e84ca7b351c54d3de5bed8\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff98f1c4b1904498b61d86722227ed8a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7f318193f00410592bc4056418687e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7f318193f00410592bc4056418687e3\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E I present to the House a legislative statement on the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6f6a4c8ae10415cb5973bc10c627c18\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d136ea855dba4f7c8dfae3e6fc7e559d\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I move, That the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has committed to a net zero target for 2050, and the emissions trading scheme (ETS) is a critical tool for achieving this by putting a price on the pollution that causes climate change. This bill will make the New Zealand emissions trading scheme more accurate and reduce an unnecessary cost to the Crown. It will also more equitably treat other sectors and reduce the pressure on our emissions budgets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ECurrently, industries that are emissions intensive and which compete with foreign companies that are not exposed to a carbon price receive what we call \u201Cindustrial allocation\u201D, or free New Zealand emissions units, up to a certain percentage of their expected emissions costs, but some industries are receiving more free emissions units than they need. This bill improves the way that the ETS functions by updating the decade-old baselines used to calculate industrial allocation. The bill also tightens the eligibility criteria for new industrial activities wanting to receive free emissions units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EAddressing over-allocation is long overdue. Over-allocation is a significant cost to the Government of almost $50 million every year. The bill also reduces the risk of over-allocation in the future by introducing five- to 10-year review and update window periods for updating baselines in eligible industries\u2014in other words, no sooner than five years and no later than 10 years. This window aims to balance the risk of additional cost to Government due to over-allocation whilst also providing businesses and investors the certainty that they need to invest in new ways of working that will lead to emissions reductions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes three technical improvements to industrial allocation policy. These are, first, enabling updates to allocative baselines if technical settings change; second, easier access to data from industrial allocation applications; and, third, a new methodology for resetting the electricity allocation factor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes changes to penalties for late payments by small forestry participants to reduce the risk of serious financial hardship. Small foresters are forestry participants with liabilities of less than 25,000 units on average per year. The revised penalty will take effect from 1 January 2025 to allow for sufficient time to educate participants on how the penalty will work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI do want to thank the Environment Committee for its diligent consideration of this important piece of work. I also want to acknowledge everyone who has submitted on the bill during the select committee stage. The bill received over 100 submissions, including submissions from the Climate Change Commission, not-for-profit organisations, individuals, industries, and climate experts. Your input has proven invaluable in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI now want to focus on the changes that the select committee has made to this bill, which all relate to industrial allocation. In my first reading speech, I asked the select committee to look into proposed changes that may increase eligibility for industrial allocation. The select committee examined these settings closely and has recommended some changes. Again, I do want to thank the submitters, and particularly independent experts such as Dr Christina Hood, for their work with the select committee and with the Ministry for the Environment officials to get to where we did on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe first change is to retain, rather than to change, the current thresholds used to test whether an industry or activity should be eligible for industrial allocation. In addition, the bill will require that eligibility for existing activities not be retested as part of the upcoming allocative baseline update. I welcome this change. It addresses concerns from many submitters that updating the eligibility thresholds using a recent carbon price would have made it easier for some businesses to receive industrial allocation. The bill will keep the current classifications and maintain the high bar for eligibility, supporting the broader emissions reductions goals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe second change concerns eligibility for new industrial activities. The select committee recommended changing the additional test for eligibility for new industrial activities, and I also endorse this change. The test requires the Minister of Climate Change to consider additional matters. Under this new test, it will be difficult for new activities to gain eligibility for industrial allocation. As well as being consistent with our broader climate change commitments, this will help the Government to manage the scheme\u2019s fiscal costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe third change that the select committee recommended relates to the over-allocation test for future updates to allocative baselines. The bill proposes that the Government can update baselines when allocation is more than 60 percent of the emissions costs associated with moderately emissions-intensive activities, such as the production of ethanol or of tissue paper. For highly emissions-intensive activities, the baselines can be updated when allocation is more than 90 percent of the emissions costs. Highly intensive activities include cement production and aluminium smelting. This is an important change. The revised test will deal more effectively with any significant over-allocation that occurs as companies decarbonise. Having two different trigger levels for moderately intensive and highly intensive activities will treat companies more equitably.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ELastly, each eligible activity has at least one associated product. For example, a product from the production of cementitious products is cement clinker. The select committee made a change to the bill so that new products within an existing eligible activity could use projected data to set its allocative baselines when actual data is not yet available. Without the ability to do this, a firm could be better off continuing with its current method of operation and receiving free allocation rather than decarbonising. I support this change as it would encourage firms to pursue decarbonisation investments, which is crucial for our transition to a more resilient low-emissions economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThis bill as reported back by the select committee supports the review and the update of industrial allocation settings that are long overdue. This bill futureproofs the emissions trading scheme by ensuring that we more accurately determine the rates of allocation and that there is a framework to update them in the future. The changes that we make today will help us to meet our emissions budgets, our international obligations, and our broader climate change goals. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00221ce5e8144ed3417eb939931207efb8a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ce5e8144ed3417eb939931207efb8a5\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to make comment in relation to the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill in its second reading. I wish to acknowledge the Minister in regards to this bill. While I\u2019ve attended a limited number of the select committee deliberations in regards to this bill, it has been a process, I think, led by the Hon Eugenie Sage, that has taken into account a wide-ranging amount of feedback from a number of stakeholders, and I think has ended up in a place in which National will be supporting in its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAs the Minister has outlined, the bill makes two key adjustments and provisions: one in regards to the changes in terms of the allocation baselines around industrial allocations, the other one in regards to the penalty regime, in particular for small forestry participants when they fail to surrender or repay emissions trading scheme (ETS) units. Both amendments within this bill are, from National\u2019s perspective, reasonable and pragmatic changes and we continue to support this bill through all remaining stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure to speak as National\u2019s climate change spokesperson. National are committed to achieving our net zero commitments by 2050. We also strongly support and endorse the role in which the ETS plays in order to assist us to achieve those goals. These changes within this legislation enable us to strengthen elements of that mechanism, which will, no doubt, ensure that we can meet those obligations in the future, which is so critically important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIt is good to see that the Government has taken on board the concerns and feedback, particularly from small forestry participants, in regards to this. We heard a number of those submissions through the select committee process. Equally, it is good to see that the Government has taken on board the feedback in regards to some of the industrial emitters, because this is\u2014and we do share with them some of the concerns that were raised in regards to the implications that this bill is changed. Of course, it is positive that in this instance we are seeing the Government work constructively with the sector and not against them as we proceed through this basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAs we noted, the Environment Committee had 107 submissions, of which 27 submissions were heard. I wish to thank all of those submitters in regards to the comprehensive nature of feedback that they provided. It is heartening to see that a number of those submitters whose feedback was provided have been taken into consideration and adopted in regards to changes in this bill. That is how our democracy should operate in regards to that select committee process, and it is good to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere were a number of changes made and, by and large, they were made unanimously across the committee. That is important recognition in terms of those changes. But we do recognise that there still remains a number of key aspects that need to be improved if you consider the broader Government\u2019s climate change policies, and in particular the actions required by the Government in order to support emission reduction within our economy and get us on a glide path in order to meet those 2030 and 2050 obligations. It is the desire of National, and into the future the opportunity that arises with us as a National-led Government, to see a step change, and a step change in the pace in which those actions are implemented to reduce emissions in order to meet our obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the industrial allocations elements, as has been noted by the Minister, the select committee did make a number of changes in regards to that. That is important. It is interesting to note in the regulatory impact statement at sections 119 to 121 that there were issues raised in regards to the implications on both the regional economy and economic activity of adverse consequences on a number of these industrial emitters, particularly where we\u2019ve got industrial emitters such as in the fertiliser space\u2014in particular one in New Zealand\u2014and the implications around that business. If that business shuts down, then New Zealand would potentially lose around 30 percent of its ability to produce nitrogen and that would then have to be imported, primarily from overseas and primarily from China.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo there are considerations around ensuring that we get the balance right in terms of protecting the elements of industry within this country, but also acknowledging the fact that they also need to, in effect, for many of those industries, undertake a transformational reduction in regards to the way in which they reduce their emissions profile. For many of those businesses, they do face significant challenges, quite simply because the solution, the technology, and the options to actually achieve that at the pace which is required do not currently exist in all instances. So we need to acknowledge that for some of those industries they are at a different phase versus others, and that is just the reality of where we are. But we are confident with the challenges in front of us and that, with the appropriate research and development and technology and focus, solutions will be found to those problems as we proceed in the future. In the interim, we should focus on the opportunities that are available for us immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the changes on the industrial allocations, it is important to say that a number of the changes have been made in order to make it clearer within the legislation, and making sure that the changes that were fed through by the select committee actually do work appropriately for industrial allocations. As a result, I think the changes ensure that we\u2019ve actually made the ETS able to perform better than what was previously the case, which is important. It also deals with the reality that things have moved on over the past 10 years, and we are using this opportunity to rebalance or level up that aspect which provides a much more solid footing, going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI think the reality is that, again, in regards to the industrial allocations and those large emitters, this is going to continue to be a conversation\u2014a dialogue. And I commit to those industries within our country that a National-led Government will work with you, not against you, in order to work through those challenges, because we need to find a position in which we all are able to achieve the outcomes that we need to. We need to work with each other, not against each other. That is the expectation on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s pretty much all that I wish to cover this evening. As is outlined, National will be supporting this bill and through all stages this evening. I acknowledge again the work of the Minister and the work of the select committee who I think, all in all, worked very constructively in regards to putting in place this legislation. We commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228a78cf47b62b46009516c61a03838be3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a78cf47b62b46009516c61a03838be3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00223f3e47171fb449aa89d1e43a553fcb65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f3e47171fb449aa89d1e43a553fcb65\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m just going to make a few brief comments about the bill; in particular, one of the two aspects of the bill, which is this question of industrial allocation, which, for the folks at home wondering what \u201Cindustrial allocation\u201D is, it\u2019s the giving of free emissions units to emission-intensive trade-exposed industries. If we didn\u2019t do this as part of the emissions trading scheme (ETS), the risk would be that the ETS would add cost to New Zealand firms, causing them to either shut down or move their operations offshore with loss of jobs for New Zealand but no reduction in net global emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOne of the things that the bill does is amend the eligibility criteria for industrial allocation by updating the emissions intensity thresholds to reflect a more recent carbon price. The problem that we\u2019re trying to solve is over-allocation. The eligibility criteria and the rules on allocation are over a decade old and are simply too generous. Some firms have been receiving more free units than they need, costing the taxpayer unnecessarily and somewhat reducing the incentive to decarbonise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis is a rather technical bill. It\u2019s a tweaking of a couple of aspects relating to the ETS, and I want to, really, just acknowledge the work of the select committee, which, as the previous speaker commented, I think worked together in a pretty collegial way. We benefited greatly from a number of submissions, including, I would say, particularly the Climate Change Commission, but especially Dr Christina Hood, an expert in carbon markets. With Dr Hood\u2019s assistance, the committee worked quite hard to toughen up some of the rules around industrial allocation, and I take from the Minister\u2019s earlier comments that he\u2019s satisfied that the committee significantly improved the bill. On that note, I will commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002209392ca78b2646738d07fe5c2122dc12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209392ca78b2646738d07fe5c2122dc12\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s also a pleasure to take a call on the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill tonight in the House. The title of the bill is almost longer than the bill, and some bills that we\u2019ve been discussing today took hours and hours and days and days of work. This one was actually rather small in comparison but, none the less, thorough by the select committee, and it was a pleasure to be involved for a large proportion of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI also would like to thank the Minister for the ability for the Environment Committee to make changes. I always think legislation works at its best where submitters come in and Ministers have an open mind, and this is one that worked extremely successfully. As has been explained, the bill does allow our businesses to compete internationally on a fair playing field by giving some free allocations to those businesses who need it, and the other part of that is the rules relating to the penalties around small forestry participants; those who have less than 25,000 units. And at the time that this was developed, it was deferred for small forestry participants until 2023, due to concerns that applying it would cause serious financial hardship, potentially putting their personal assets such as home or farm at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo this is a good continuation, and I think it\u2019s really important for those small foresters. I won\u2019t have a lot more to say in my small speech tonight about that one, but I do think the update on the allocated baselines in determining industrial allocation of free emission units has to be updated\u2014obviously, now that the reviews are set in place, somewhere between five and 10 years. It\u2019s been quite a while, and, as we know, technology research and development should be moving us forward at a fast pace and so, at that rate, business will be able to use science to make changes faster. Therefore, to keep the regime relevant, we need to be watching it and monitoring it much more often, and it is positive to see the Government working in this regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe others have talked about the submissions\u2014107 submissions, and 27 provided oral evidence. I think, really, the report of the committee acknowledged that the urgent work is still needed to improve the design of the climate change policy in relation to industrial emitters, and there is always more work to do. I think, really, some of the most important changes from the aspect of science and technology are the clarified eligible process for new industrial activities. We should always expect that there will be new industrial activities. As people change their processes in light of decarbonising, we shouldn\u2019t keep assuming that what we knew 10 or 15 years ago is current to what we know now and what we will know in five years\u2019 time. So it\u2019s good that this bill allows the use of projected data for new products in existing eligible industrial activities when actual data is not available to set the relevant allocated baselines. It gives an opportunity for those businesses to get started to make sure that they\u2019re competing with whatever the new product might be, and be able to compete on an apples for apples basis, if you like, if that\u2019s an acceptable terminology for measuring climate change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m not going to speak for much longer on this bill tonight, because as I said, it\u2019s a smallish bill and a lot of the detail has already been relayed by other speakers, but just to say that National is very pleased to commend this bill to the House. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022494055a08a544631a0f75bb34e22840c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022494055a08a544631a0f75bb34e22840c\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Again, I am pleased to stand and speak on another bill\u2014I think my fifth tonight\u2014to speak on the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe second reading is often an opportunity for us to talk about the submissions, of course, and we have heard that there are 107 of them and 27 of these submitted to us orally. I do want to acknowledge my colleague the Hon Phil Twyford, who talked about Dr Christina Hood\u2019s contribution\u2014outstanding and extremely helpful to support us in our understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Minister as well. I do recall working on the Climate Change Response Act amendment in the last term, and I feel like I have probably learnt much more about the emissions trading scheme than I thought I\u2019d ever need to know. But nevertheless, I think is a good piece of legislation. It tidies up a couple of things, and one of them, I think, which is quite important, is providing and creating for us a formula of how penalties will be applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ENow, the reason I think that this is really important is because when these small farm holders who have these blocks of land with pine trees on don\u2019t do what they are supposed to do, there\u2019s a massive penalty applied to them. As a consequence, by codifying for and extending out a year, and explaining to those small holdings owners what would happen, it essentially does give some clarity to what they\u2019re up for. I think it\u2019s a really fair thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t usually enjoy legislation that has a formula in it, but I think this is well explained. With that, I\u2019d like to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022eea41d2df97d48e4a345132c49e6683f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eea41d2df97d48e4a345132c49e6683f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Two problems this bill tries to solve: the issue that for small foresters who have cut down their trees; trees that were in the emissions trading scheme, because at some point during that forest lifecycle, the landowner thought it was a good idea to enter the emissions trading scheme, offer their trees up as carbon soakage, only to discover many years later when they go to harvest the trees that the cost of harvest for a small wood lot often outweighs the price they get at the mill. By the time you get timber off a remote farm or remote property, sort it out on site and get it to the mill, it hardly covers their costs. So then they say, \u201CWell, why would we replant, when it hardly covered our costs?\u201D Now, for those people who entered the emissions trading scheme some years ago, if they don\u2019t replant, they have to pay a penalty, and what this bill recognises is that while participants in the scheme should be required to honour their obligations to continue taking carbon out of the atmosphere, the penalties were excessive. So ACT supports that aspect of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s a part we don\u2019t support, and that is the way that carbon emissions from New Zealand\u2019s major industrial facilities\u2014and we don\u2019t have many in New Zealand, because there\u2019s only 5 million people. We\u2019re not industrialised like Northern Europe or the United States or Japan or Korea is. We only have a few industries, but they employ tens of thousands of people in extremely high paid jobs in towns and regions where there are not a lot of well-paid jobs. You might think of Taranaki, for example. You might think of Ballance, Kapuni, which makes a nitrogen-based fertiliser from natural gas, one of New Zealand\u2019s most valuable and precious resources. Or you might think of a big pulp mill making pulp for paper and all kinds of other packaging products in the central North Island. It also relies heavily on natural gas as a fuel in order to turn trees into pulp so they can export that pulp, earn really good export revenues, pay people well, and employ people in a place like Tangiwai in the central North Island, where there are very few high paid jobs as an alternative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat this bill attempts to do is to look back in time and say, \u201CIn 2008, 2009, 2010, these industries were emitting carbon dioxide in a way that created a baseline.\u201D\u2014fine; I accept that. Now, 2023, a lot of them have decarbonised. They\u2019ve invested in more efficient plant and equipment. They might have decided, \u201CHey, instead of a gas-powered compressor, we\u2019ll have an electrical-powered compressor, even though we still use natural gas in our industrial process to create very high heat to turn those very stiff lignin fibres into wood pulp, or to turn natural gas into, literally, urea fertiliser\u2014an amazing piece of scientific technology right there in Taranaki, at Ballance, Kapuni. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThese businesses came to select committee and said, \u201CWe have decarbonised. We will accept a rebaselining opportunity, where we get to submit our data to the Ministry for the Environment, whatever agency you like, and we will accept the rebaselining now in 2023 or 2024.\u201D But what this bill proposes to do is to give the Minister of Climate Change, that all-powerful deity, the opportunity to call in their business and have their emissions rebaseline reassessed every five years. And what these businesses told us was \u201CLook, we\u2019re happy to embark on a deep carbonisation pathway out to 2050. No problem. A lot of the kit we\u2019re going to replace our existing plant and equipment with is very, very expensive, though.\u201D For example, a $200 million piece of equipment that was described as being able to deliver 20 percent reduction in emissions at Ballance, Kapuni, in other words, reducing by 20 percent the emissions produced to make that urea fertiliser that goes on our farms all around New Zealand, a 20 percent reduction in emissions\u2014that\u2019s phenomenal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI mean, that should be celebrated. But what they said was that if we make that investment at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars on the basis that our industrial allocation is, essentially, fixed between now and\u2014you know, give us a good 15 years\u2019 payback period. I mean no one is going to go to their board and say, \u201CHey, Mr Chair, can I have $200 million for a piece of equipment? But, by the way, I don\u2019t know if, actually, we\u2019re not ever going to get the payback period on it. We might have the rug pulled out from us from some climate deity, otherwise known as a climate Minister, five years from now.\u201D They said we would never get permission to make that investment in decarbonisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT listened to these submitters, which is why, unfortunately\u2014despite the good things in this bill\u2014overall, we have to oppose it, because it does not address that fundamental issue. How do we retain New Zealand industries here which employ highly paid people in regions like Taranaki and the central North Island, who are people who didn\u2019t necessarily have to complete high school, who may not have had a perfect past, and who may not have university degrees, but they get to go to work and work in industries which pay them as well, if not better, than if they did. That is something that we used to call the Kiwi Dream. But if this bill passes as written, part of that Kiwi Dream is not just at risk but it may well be on life support until a future Green Minister pulls out the plug. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill risks the de-industrialisation of New Zealand and the extinguishing of high-paid jobs in the provinces and regions, and it will set New Zealand\u2019s decarbonisation efforts back by a decade or more. Why would businesses domiciled in countries like Japan or Korea or the United States continue to invest in New Zealand when this bill proposes to pull the rug out on their long-term decarbonisation investments? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, the purpose of the primary legislation is not just to create a test for industrial allocation\u2014in other words, how many credits should an industry give, based on its emissions intensity. The other part of this bill is the trade-exposed part\u2014emissions-intensive, trade-exposed industries that compete with either goods manufactured overseas or that want to manufacture goods in New Zealand and export to overseas markets. Either way, New Zealand wins if our businesses here are competitive and are paying people well to make manufactured products here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhether it\u2019s methanol, whether it\u2019s fertiliser, whether it\u2019s wood pulp, whether it\u2019s turn recycled glass bottles back into glass, like O-I Glass do in Penrose, using natural gas\u2014all of those industries are at risk if we get this wrong. If this Minister of Climate Change, James Shaw, gets this wrong, if Labour gets this wrong, if National gets this wrong, all these industries are at risk, and yet it appears that this Government and those supporting the bill are quite happy to put the ship \u201CNew Zealand\u201D on autopilot and let the zero carbon Act guide us to an uncertain, impoverished, and a highly unlikely to be low-carbon future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat has the Minister done to make the case that these amendments in this legislation are necessary and that they\u2019re going to work? Well, what he\u2019s done in the past few months is completely undermine the premise of this bill by going around the country and handing out green bucks\u2014sorry, money taken from consumers under the emissions trading scheme. He\u2019s been taking that money, which could go back to consumers in the form of a carbon dividend\u2014I mean, that\u2019s what ACT says would be the most effective way to establish the credibility of the emissions trading scheme as an enduring way to put a price incentive on emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s gone around the country, the Minister of Climate Change, and his comrades in the Labour Party. They\u2019ve gone to visit a whole lot of businesses, handing out green bucks: $140 million to BlueScope Steel at Glenbrook to decarbonise and to buy an electric arc furnace, as if a $2.7 billion profit - making Australian company couldn\u2019t afford to buy its own furnace. That\u2019s right, silence\u2014you\u2019ve got no answer for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat this Minister has done and what Labour have done through the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry Fund and all these other interventions is undermine the rationale behind this bill. They risk introducing a corruption of the spirit into New Zealand business, which will become dependent on a future Minister here, green bucks here, and red bucks here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT has a different approach. We say that we should cap our emissions at the same level as our top five trading partners managed to reduce theirs by last year. That would allow the emissions trading scheme to discover the price. That price will be the world price, and that\u2019s what our industries should pay. That\u2019ll keep jobs here, and that\u2019ll keep New Zealand going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u002243bbeb96bc99478fb3d7eb3d4e60b6a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243bbeb96bc99478fb3d7eb3d4e60b6a6\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E While the previous speaker takes a little moment to sit down and calm down a wee bit, may I just take a very short call on this sensible bill, which essentially is updating a 22-year-old Act\u2014the Climate Change Response Act 2002\u2014which set the allocation of New Zealand emission units, which recognised\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cb18832e42541cdba7d409c160943d7\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Do not ask this person to be your lawyer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8957bdd92e34222bae4b891a241f49c\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Which recognised the cost to businesses who are trying to decarbonise and do the right thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240accdf7bd0e4680ba9d6cace188ff3f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You will lose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272ff18e5c97f4c408bd020fb332f952d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4fe34a2ecd64466a6bac07a97237eed\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill updates these decades-old industrial allocations settings, which have unfortunately resulted in some emitting firms receiving more units than they needed at an estimated cost to the Government and thus the New Zealand people of $60 million a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EIt is a sensible bill, it is overdue at 22 years old, and I commend it to the House and thank the committee for the hard and detailed work they have done upon it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae9906d0d63d4ede9afabb51d4556858\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae9906d0d63d4ede9afabb51d4556858\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to join my colleague Dr Emily Henderson in making a short call in support of this bill. I\u2019m not on the Environment Committee and I\u2019m always impressed by the level of knowledge and care that they take over bills like this that are actually going to make a real change to New Zealand society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis was a bill that tried to make sure that our industries that were not carbon-friendly were able to continue to operate in a way which sustained them and sustained their employees but that also allowed them to move into a new world\u2014and so is the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry Fund, and I\u2019m incredibly proud of some of the things that it\u2019s done; so was, obviously, the move that Mr Court seemed to object to, to actually go in and work with businesses like BlueScope to change the way they make steel in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI was a lawyer at the Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union at the time I first went to the steel mill, and it\u2019s this incredible place which is making steel from our sand, and one of the greatest parts of job has got to be going and seeing raw material turned into product. But wouldn\u2019t it be good, and isn\u2019t it going to be good, when those kinds of industries and these kinds of measures become something we can do without destroying our environment and our climate. Thank you. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3e474db5426422aa16b38ba3af307d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3e474db5426422aa16b38ba3af307d9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on Ian McKelvie for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u002298c93f5ad7b54114bc5c728935db4de6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298c93f5ad7b54114bc5c728935db4de6\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill, I suppose\u2014to steal a phrase from Sean Fitzpatrick\u2014is like a bill of two halves. The first half\u2019s pretty easy to understand and probably logical, and will probably save\u2014and I\u2019ll explain who it\u2019s going to save in a minute\u2014some people from, I guess, not breaking the law but from some pretty serious penalties. The reason for needing that is, I guess, the awareness of the emissions trading scheme (ETS), and certainly the rules around it have been pretty vague in New Zealand\u2014not because they\u2019re vague but because people don\u2019t necessarily think they need to understand them. So you could easily get people\u2014probably, the majority of them would be farmers\u2014who\u2019ve had pine trees planted on their farms for years and years, who\u2019ve cut them down quite innocently. And off they go with the cash, only to find that they were either pre-1990 or had been registered by a previous owner in the ETS.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s what the first part of this is about. It\u2019s, effectively, rationalising those penalties, because it\u2019s a pretty serious issue and I think there will be a number of MPs in this House who\u2019ve had constituents come to them on this very issue with this bill. It\u2019s not overcoming it, because it still needs some penalty in place, but, certainly, making it much less onerous. And with good reason, because I don\u2019t think anyone deliberately undermines the law or deliberately sets out to break the law, but, none the less, it is easy to do, and you can see how it could easily happen. So it restricts the penalties on those, I suppose, forest owners\u2014for want of a better word\u2014and makes the whole system less intimidating for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI listened to Simon Court with interest\u2014some of which I didn\u2019t understand; some of which I did. But the second part of the bill is much more complicated, and whilst it might be fine today, it won\u2019t be fine in a year\u2019s time. The reason for that is the environment in which we operate in\u2014in any country in the world\u2014changes very quickly, and business changes very quickly, and product changes very quickly. The reason for this piece of legislation, in my view, running the risk of being outdated quite quickly is that those will change so quickly that we\u2019ll then need to account for a whole different regime in two or three years\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThat leads me to the issue that concerns me most about this, and I spoke about it in the first reading: this is an extremely complex business, the Climate Change Response Act, and what\u2019s happened to it in the time it\u2019s been operating and the changes we\u2019ve made to it. And we\u2019re seeing that quite clearly with the ETS right now, where we\u2019ve got, I suppose, significant uncertainty in the way it\u2019s going to operate in the future. I\u2019m a supporter of the ETS. I think it needs to work, from a New Zealand perspective. At what level it works\u2014that\u2019s another issue, because, when you look around the world and actually look around New Zealand, the cost that these types of schemes can impose, particularly on our lower-income communities, is significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESome of us had the opportunity to tour to South America last year and see the extraordinary poverty in some cities, particularly in places like Santiago, Buenos Aires, and Mexico City. The biggest concern they had was what, I guess, regimes like this are going to put on the future cost of food and the future cost of servicing those communities\u2014electricity is a particularly harsh one. So all those things get significantly lifted in cost by what we\u2019re trying to address in the second part of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ENow, to some extent, it sets out to address that\u2014and that\u2019s where I do agree with Simon Court. It sets out to address it, but, actually, it\u2019s very difficult to address it in law. And so I think we\u2019ve made this whole situation, over a number of years, extremely complicated. So this bill will have to come back\u2014or the second part of this bill will undoubtedly come back. It will be reviewed next year anyway, and it would undoubtedly come back for further change. I\u2019m not criticising the bill, because I think that, given the circumstances we\u2019re in right now, it needs to be pushed on with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo the first part of the bill, I think, is great. The second part of the bill, I think, will be back\u2014long after I\u2019m gone, but will be back\u2014and will need alteration. So the whole thing needs more consideration. I commend the bill to build the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1525329c4ab46a99d0af00f6b2b973a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1525329c4ab46a99d0af00f6b2b973a\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak on the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill and happy to make a short contribution. I support the second reading of this bill. It is a technical bill and I do want to acknowledge the Environment Committee as a member\u2014my fellow colleagues, members\u2014the officials and submitters, in particular Dr Christina Hood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe emergency action that is demanded is ambitious, urgent, and requires a coordinated response across Government to meet the scale and complex challenges. It enables just transition and low emissions, as the Government has a priority of a climate-resilient future. We\u2019ve seen, quite recently this year, the effects of climate change and those are being felt in our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe bill reforms industrial allocation policy and revises the late payment penalty for small forestry participants, and we heard the Minister of Climate Change talk about those changes that this bill proposes with the New Zealand emissions trading scheme. We know that this bill will ensure businesses receive appropriate amounts. It will address over-allocation and reduce the significant costs to Government to align with Aotearoa\u2019s climate response targets, and the changes will also make it also easier for emissions budgets to be met.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EJust very quickly, the allocation of baselines will be updated with new data. It allows reassessment of eligibility of current industries and also has technical improvements to industrial allocation policy. The select committee made a number of recommendations for the bill to be considered and, on that, also a revised penalty for small forestry participants. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab3f4150ac854c619325a904b0ad6196\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker. No? Am I too soon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afaa6eecdbe74185a39a350e689ee54f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a Labour call. I call on the Hon Michael Wood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b630524c4f8545dcbb89cc8eb6f819c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b630524c4f8545dcbb89cc8eb6f819c3\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. I\u2019m pleased to take a brief call before the member opposite makes her contribution to the debate. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on this bill because it goes to an enormously important area of public policy. In some respects, this debate has been quite instructive about what\u2019s been achieved and also what is, in fact, at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe good news in this space is that what we\u2019re doing is working. Over the last few years, we are beginning to win the battle of reducing New Zealand\u2019s emissions. The figures that came through at the end of 2022 identified that our emissions are, as of that point, at the lowest certainly since 2014 and possibly since the early 2000s. That has happened because Government policy has driven change. The successive reform and making our emissions trading scheme (ETS) framework more robust, under the Hon James Shaw as Minister, and direct policies to work with industry, specifically in emissions-intensive areas like transport, energy, and electricity generation are working; the numbers don\u2019t lie. The key thing that we have to do is to make sure that we continue to have the right policies and an ETS framework that actually sends the right signals into the market and to emitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe key problem that this bill is trying to overcome is the issue of overallocation for the relatively small number of firms in these sectors who are high emitters and are trade exposed. It\u2019s a relatively small numbers of firms; I think, under 100 in total. It is accepted by the Government and by this legislative framework that there is the case for there to be an industrial allocation into those sectors, but we need to get it right, because, if we overallocate, we will completely defeat the purpose of the ETS regime; there will not be sufficient tension within the system; the signals will not be sent to reduce emissions as much as those firms reasonably can under the circumstances. It\u2019s positive to see that there is pretty broad support across the House for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe point I make in terms of what\u2019s at risk is the attitude on display in this House by the ACT Party\u2014this is a party which opposes every single direct measure and policy that the Government puts in place to reduce emissions and says that we should fall back on an efficient and effective ETS system. Yet when we try and do that through this piece of legislation by making sure that we don\u2019t overallocate, by making sure that our decisions are based on good and up-to-date information, they oppose that as well. That really does show that party out to be true to form, to be the climate-denying party of this Parliament, as they have been for 20 years. That is the risk if that party is in Government after this election. This is a good bill. It will mean that we continue to make progress on climate change. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00221531bed8aa824cef945da57672467398\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221531bed8aa824cef945da57672467398\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I rise as the last speaker for the National Party, following on from my colleagues: our spokesperson for climate change, Simon Watts, who is by profession an accountant; and also my colleague Barbara Kuriger, who sat on the select committee with Simon and is our spokesperson for conservation and a farmer; and Ian McKelvie, also a farmer. So the contribution from the National Party: two farmers and an accountant, very much from a pragmatic point of view in support of this Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill\u2014quite a mouthful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo the position has been outlined by my colleagues. My contribution in this House this evening will be brief. But climate is something that we\u2019re all experiencing throughout our nation and globally as being predictably unpredictable. So listening to some of the speakers this evening who have talked about the fact\u2014and Ian McKelvie, saying that climate does rapidly change\u2014and, as a result, the legislation will need to keep up with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIn summary, for the benefit of members of the public who are listening into this debate, this bill is to amend provisions in the Climate Change Response Act 2002 relating to the New Zealand emissions trading scheme. It updates the penalty for participants with low volume liabilities of less than 25,000 units on average per year from forestry activities occurring from 1\u00A0January 2025. Now, this will be meaningful to those persons who are in the forestry sector and also those persons who do have an investment in vested interests in this sector\u2014so occurring from 1 January 2025, who fail to surrender or repay units by the due date. The bill also updates industrial allocation settings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo, in saying that, I\u2019m keeping this contribution brief; it\u2019s important that the National Party does support this bill. Both amendments are reasonable and pragmatic, like the contributions from my colleagues, and the respective professions and sectors that they come from. These pragmatic changes, we will continue to support them at all remaining stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EJust to note that at select committee, this bill was thoroughly canvassed and considered by the Environment Committee: 107 submissions were received and 27 provided oral evidence. So the select committee has provided a comprehensive report which is available. It\u2019s noted that those submitters were acknowledged and the contributions appreciated, particularly those impacted like those who currently receive industrial allocations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo on that note, in keeping this brief, in saying that climate is predictably unpredictable; something that is predictable in terms of this bill, it does have the numbers and, at this second reading, going through to the committee of the whole House stage and hopefully this evening to the third reading, it will pass into law. The National Party commends this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002222d5afe3042043c38efc2d8045ee3e59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222d5afe3042043c38efc2d8045ee3e59\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s lovely to rise in the House this evening at this late hour and support this piece of legislation. As someone from Taranaki where climate change and the challenges that we face when we have an energy industry\u2014and we have, of course, the dairy and agriculture industry\u2014obviously we are working on things like Just Transition, like our Taranaki 2050 Roadmap which all people across this space are working together on. We\u2019ve got challenges to face that we are going to work on together, but things like this legislation will help us, and that\u2019s why we see across the House\u2014except for, of course, the ACT Party who are denying many things and this being one of them; that is why we support this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Minister, the Hon James Shaw, for bringing this to the House, to the Environment Committee for the work they have done and for hearing submitters on what\u2019s going on. It\u2019s about Just Transition, it\u2019s about finding a way forward, and it\u2019s about not keeping your head in the sand but looking to our future and our future generations. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225838314a54c5459187b9cfc5bf5fc016\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001284\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed8ec1a21ae5436096b5178c64ece29d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed8ec1a21ae5436096b5178c64ece29d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2403a9870974d4787dfc4601fd30573\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e5f14eb23d246769065bb6a66607fdf\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2ab4accdf2942c389597421348600fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2ab4accdf2942c389597421348600fd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill. Members, we come now to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002279650aa1ec7449d3aaddf053a40f8a0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279650aa1ec7449d3aaddf053a40f8a0b\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002284ecaba2207b4c55a0901207bd17c7ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284ecaba2207b4c55a0901207bd17c7ef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225c5eb9d8a04c4cfd954d1d916f8aa32a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c5eb9d8a04c4cfd954d1d916f8aa32a\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister some questions on the Supplementary Order Paper 409 that is on the table, in regards to proposed amendments on clauses 2, 5, 14, and 17. I note in the commentary to this that these are minor and technical amendments to some errors that were noted in the legislation. As was noted before, there are a number of formula and other aspects within the legislation. I\u2019d be interested if the Minister could provide some assurance around the background for these amendments\u2014the basis in which they were identified, assurance that you\u2019re comfortable that there is nothing further remaining that needs to be updated, and any other context that may be useful in us considering this Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002258b77de9e85546f2b8cdf62f5827051a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258b77de9e85546f2b8cdf62f5827051a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Parts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022d227a8e7bbd8414a81e6aef5602c41eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d227a8e7bbd8414a81e6aef5602c41eb\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. ACT does not support the bill proceeding in its current form. But the ACT Party would be prepared to consider supporting the bill in the interests of having a more efficient, effective, transparent, reliable, and enduring emissions trading scheme, and in the interests of reducing the potential liabilities that the New Zealand Government might have to face in having to cover the cost of allocating emissions credits or these allocations to industries in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo ACT supports the target of net zero carbon by 2050. But, Minister, the problem, ACT would contend, is with some of the announcements that you yourself have made in the name of this Government to reduce emissions\u2014or, at Glasgow, a new target to reduce New Zealand emissions by 50 percent by 2050, net. The emissions reduction plans set out targets for reductions with no real understanding of what the cost of meeting them is, Minister. And then, having gone around the country, allocating funds to different industries from the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry fund, which is supported by the emissions trading scheme revenues\u2014there are so many parts at play. This Government\u2019s approach to reducing emissions and providing New Zealand businesses and consumers with a long-run view of what a pathway to zero carbon 2050 looks like is really confused right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWould it be helpful if you could explain for the committee the purpose of the amendment that you have proposed in Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 409? Because this relates to the formula that appears in the bill, which is one of the ways that emissions allocations are treated. Now, the formula that appears in the bill, prior to the amendment that you tabled, actually was only offered to the select committee in the few days before the report was finalised. Select committee members\u2014myself and Simon Watts of National\u2014asked officials to please demonstrate how this formula works. Because it\u2019s not clear that the allocations that this formula would give to New Zealand industry would be sufficient so that they could remain competitive with their overseas competitors, either with goods manufactured overseas that aren\u2019t subject to a carbon price or goods manufactured here that our exporters might want to send to another jurisdiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe whole point of industrial education is so that our businesses remain competitive with overseas businesses, so that New Zealanders\u2019 jobs are secure, so that in the regions which depend on manufacturing jobs in order to sustain their schools and all the other things that make the regions strong and communities strong\u2014the whole purpose of this is to prevent carbon leakage when New Zealand\u2019s carbon price is higher than that of our competitors overseas. And so New Zealand business is subject to a high carbon price, such as under the emissions trading scheme or whatever other scheme this Government might dream up\u2014a high carbon price means they will leave. They won\u2019t invest in decarbonisation; they won\u2019t invest at all. They will close the factory gates, they will lay off their workers, and they will leave, when what we could do is encourage them to stay here in New Zealand and continue to invest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut the choice that this Government has made and, in fact, you\u2019ve made personally is to go around the country handing out money from the emissions trading scheme (ETS) through the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry fund\u2014the GIDI fund, for short\u2014which has created the sense that if businesses only wait for Minister Shaw to turn up with some of this money from the emissions trading scheme revenues, then they\u2019ll be saved from this risk of having to leave New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, Minister, it\u2019s a very dangerous precedent that you\u2019ve set. So I\u2019d like you to explain how this SOP will work in terms of amending the formula. Will we know whether New Zealand businesses are getting a fair shake, when it comes to a carbon price? And, Minister, what is your behaviour doing to undermine the ETS?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8d1dd4ce6514a9c8eb8cb71975bb2a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8d1dd4ce6514a9c8eb8cb71975bb2a5\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to address a couple of questions there. So I had a question from Simon Watts about a couple of the points in Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 409, just testing whether they are, in fact, minor and I think\u2014if I\u2019m interpreting the question correctly\u2014that they are in fact minor and technical, and you know, we\u2019re not opening ourselves up to any more. I\u2019ve sought assurance from officials, and I\u2019m assured that they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question from Simon Court, quite a lot of that commentary was well outside the scope of the bill; it relates to other matters of climate policy that have got nothing to do with this, however, there was one relevant sub-question there in relation to the formula. Broadly speaking, the intention here is to ensure that industries aren\u2019t receiving more free units than they need to in order to remain competitive, and then that is, in fact, the purpose of the entire bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI want to mention the work that the Environment Committee did on this, you know, which has led to this SOP, because when we introduced the bill into the House at first reading, I was not wholly sure that we had landed where we needed to; I was a bit queasy about it and invited the select committee to look at this. The select committee worked very hard on this, and you know, I acknowledge that it is a very technical area and the work that the Climate Change Commission, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, independent experts like Dr Christina Hood and the officials did for Ministry for the Environment\u2014coming back to select committee a number of times in order to work through those quite complicated matters. To arrive at this amendment, I think, gives me all the assurance that I need that the formula does do what it is intended to do and that the bill does what it is intended to do, which is to ensure that companies receive the support that they need in order to remain competitive against competition from foreign companies that aren\u2019t exposed to the same level of carbon price, but without going beyond that, into, essentially, over-subsidising them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00223ac45c07f79f417ba521e02926cefdd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ac45c07f79f417ba521e02926cefdd1\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s heartening for some, no doubt, to hear the Minister of Climate Change\u2019s confidence, but not for the ACT Party. Minister, the bill allows Ministers, future Ministers\u2014could be you\u2014to re-evaluate the allocative baseline for industries as often as every five years. So, this is the amount of so-called free credits that industries get in terms of the emissions trading scheme, which means they don\u2019t have to pay for their carbon emissions, or all of them\u2014they get a proportion allocated for free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, every five years: submitters pointed out that this is likely to undermine the incentives that they potentially have to invest in emissions reductions which have a longer payback period than five years, because if for example they want to invest in a $200\u00A0million piece of equipment to reduce emissions by a significant amount, the payback period from that for heavy industrial equipment is typically 15-plus years, potentially not returning a profit or return on that investment for over 15 years. So they identified the risk that having their industry or having their activity called in or re-evaluated after five years and therefore a risk that their allocation would be reduced means that for executives going to a board saying, \u201CCan we have $200 million, please, to invest in decarbonisation equipment?\u201D, their board might say, \u201CWell, yes, but if this thing happens where a Minister calls in our industry for a reassessment and we lose that allocation, then we\u2019re going to be underwater.\u201D Minister, do you just want to address that concern?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002245dcd876d3cd41b19b3c0f46731fde43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245dcd876d3cd41b19b3c0f46731fde43\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, very happy to. So, under the existing legislation, the way it\u2019s set up at the moment, there is no time, and it\u2019s entirely arbitrary and up to the Minister. So there\u2019s a level of uncertainty that companies already face, because they could face a review at any moment. And because it has been over a decade since we last looked at it, when I did initiate a review to say are we\u2014you know, we kind of had a sense that perhaps there were companies that were receiving over their allocation, in fact in some cases well over 100 percent, so they were actually receiving more free pollution permits than they were emitting in total. You know, we kind of looked into it and discovered that a number of businesses were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, what that means is that companies who have kind of been counting on that or using that as a revenue stream can suddenly have that taken away with no predictability at all. So, in setting up a schedule where we say \u201Cno sooner than five years, no later than 10 years\u201D, what that means is that businesses understand that there is a set series of reviews.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, a review does not mean a change in the allocative baseline. What it means is that you take a look at it and say, you know, does it still stand that the basis on which companies are receiving their allocation remains the same? If they have done that and made those investments in good faith, then there\u2019s no particular reason why that would lead to a change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EBut the whole point of having a regular schedule here is actually to provide the industries that are receiving these free units\u2014that there is some predictability to that process and that there are some considerations or some constraints on the Minister, despite the godly powers that that member bestowed earlier on in the evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002204b47f097d1a43dca4859ad89bda09aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204b47f097d1a43dca4859ad89bda09aa\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, in this current arrangement, where we\u2019ve separated church and State, it\u2019s not up to me to anoint a Minister with powers beyond that provided for. It may well have been said in jest, Minister; in fact, it was said in jest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut it is true that there are many people in New Zealand who do believe that the powers that the zero carbon Act gives the Minister are, essentially, God-like powers, where the Minister can pick and choose which industries succeed or fail, which businesses survive or not. Even under the zero carbon Act, if some of the plans suggested or proposals suggested by the Climate Change Commission\u2014if the Minister was to act on them, some of us who rely on gas heating might find that we no longer have hot showers. But, Minister, I\u2019m sure you wouldn\u2019t do that\u2014not even to punish a member of the ACT Party at 10.45 p.m. on a Wednesday night. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I\u2019m really interested because the allocation to industries has a cost. And so if the carbon price is 50 bucks or 100 bucks a ton, whatever it is, and the current arrangement allows for the Government to allocate so many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of tons of carbon to an industry or a sector, that comes at a cost to the Government. I understand, Minister, that cost is projected potentially to balloon out to the billions. It\u2019s a massive liability, potentially. But whether it balloons out or whether it\u2019s just a massive cost, how does the Government propose to fund this now and in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022092c2e4f9d6f49428415745ece2fcf33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022092c2e4f9d6f49428415745ece2fcf33\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E So when the Government creates a New Zealand Unit (NZU) inside the emissions trading scheme, it carries that as a liability on its books. So it\u2019s not something that we purchase; it is something that is created, but, in an accounting sense, it does appear as a liability on the books. In 2021, which is the last year that we\u2019ve got fully verified data for\u2014because there is a time lag\u2014we gave away about 6.6 million units under the industrial allocation programme. Now, a fairly conservative estimate is that getting a more accurate picture, as we are through this bill, could reduce the amount that we hand out by about 800,000 units, which if you assumed a carbon price of $60, which is what it is today, is about a $50 million paper loss on the Government\u2019s accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe way to think about it is actually less in terms of the cash component of that and more about an NZU as a licence to pollute\u2014to put a ton of pollution into the atmosphere\u2014then we\u2019re literally handing out something in the vicinity of 800,000 tons of pollution, or rights to pollute tons of pollution, that aren\u2019t grounded in reality, right? That means that there\u2019s a slackness in the emissions trading scheme. I know that member and that member\u2019s party are great believers in the emissions trading scheme and that it needs to be built on really solid foundations. So I\u2019m sure it would distress the member to know that we are, essentially, we estimate, overallocating 800,000 tons worth of pollution permits that are unnecessary and that make it more difficult for all of our industries to decarbonise as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002228ce29ed493e4958bfadd1d5e0b32915\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228ce29ed493e4958bfadd1d5e0b32915\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you for your insights, Minister. So if I\u2019m to take it from your reply, this is an accounting charge and that no taxpayer currently\u2014I just need you to confirm this for me if you could\u2014no taxpayer in the future will have to pay for these allocations. Is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00220db31cbc20b6403aa2e92d47b93d6c58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220db31cbc20b6403aa2e92d47b93d6c58\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E The more that we allocate for free, the less we can auction. So it carries a loss in that sense, right? Rather than a taxpayer buying a unit, it\u2019s revenue that\u2019s forgone through the auctioning system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThere is a scenario in the future which is that, if we succeed and the country decarbonises, then demand for New Zealand Units will obviously decline alongside that. But if we\u2019ve guaranteed that we\u2019re going to be handing out pollution permits as we have in perpetuity\u2014albeit at a declining rate\u2014then there will be a point at which those lines intersect, where demand actually drops lower than the amount that we\u2019re dishing out for industrial allocation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EAt that point, the Government would actually have to purchase units in order to supply them into the market in industrial allocation. That would be quite an absurd situation, if it got to that point\u2014which is that the Government would literally by buying, probably, forestry offsets to back freely allocated units. We\u2019re a very, very long way away from that scenario at the moment, but to answer the question accurately, there is a scenario in which that could occur in the future, but we are a long way from that point right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022af8bc60fccdb43e18d761be47cc32df8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af8bc60fccdb43e18d761be47cc32df8\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister. It\u2019s very helpful, particularly for people who are listening at home who might be interested in what this is all about. Because the emissions trading scheme (ETS) is not something that typically gets discussed at a barbecue\u2014unless I\u2019m there, or James is there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221e7f358ce8f4f36bcc29cbfceca1ae1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe57b29b30984e7f85e986d2d5e2eed2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Minister\u2019s there. So Minister, I just want to come to the forgone revenue part of it. The last two auctions that the Government has run have been passed in without selling any of the carbon credits. Minister, if you can just give us an indication of how much revenue you think is being forgone and what the implications of that are? Because the revenue from those auctions then goes into the decarbonising industry fund, which is one of the levers that ACT\u2019s very concerned about\u2014actually we don\u2019t think it should be going into that fund; we think the ETS revenue should be going back to consumers in the form of a carbon tax credit so that consumers can make their own decision about how they decarbonise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut Minister, could you just give us an indication of how much revenue might have been forgone through those auctions failing to trigger and sell?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e51db68f477b43288c88e97d0991a0d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e51db68f477b43288c88e97d0991a0d8\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the honest answer to that question is: you can\u2019t tell until you\u2019ve had the second two auctions\u2014the remaining auctions this year\u2014because units are allocated on an annual basis and any units that weren\u2019t auctioned at the first two become available at the third and fourth, which are yet to happen. But having said that, that\u2019s irrelevant to the scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022199b9684aff749498128e687aa4ce08f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022199b9684aff749498128e687aa4ce08f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Simon Court. Try to keep it relevant to this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae04aa733c43454295663abd9199bf8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae04aa733c43454295663abd9199bf8c\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Quite. So, I mean, I disagree that it\u2019s irrelevant because the problem that this bill tries to solve is an excess of allocations of units. Minister, you\u2019ve described that allocations from the Government\u2019s cache that are allocated to industry mean the Government has less to auction. So Minister\u2014and Madam Chair\u2014I do believe this is quite material. We need to understand what the implications are of excessive free allocations or potentially lower allocations, meaning the Government\u2019s got more credits to auction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t change the fact, though, Minister, does it, that the Government\u2014or the Minister, in fact\u2014are using powers akin to a deity and has the ability to set a cap on carbon emissions? So if that\u2019s the case and we\u2019ve got this giving an allocation for free versus revenues that the Government could potentially raise, there is an inherent tension there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I\u2019d just like you to explain: is there any thinking going on which is influencing decision making about how many credits are made available for free, and the downside risk to the Crown\u2019s revenues through the emissions trading scheme; and would the risk of giving away free credits\u2014and potentially the Crown missing out on the revenue for, say, pet Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry projects\u2014have any bearing on decision making or the development of formulas or measures in this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5e82e0145e4422bb7b36a407d4fc3fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5e82e0145e4422bb7b36a407d4fc3fd\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E No. That would be outside the scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002241089aa1c8bc48399f50b3b6e633c5a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241089aa1c8bc48399f50b3b6e633c5a4\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, you\u2019ve said quite clearly that giving away carbon credits for free is a downside\u2014it\u2019s a foregone revenue from the emissions trading scheme that the Government could have generated from the auction mechanism. So there\u2019s clearly a balancing going on somewhere, either in the Minister\u2019s office or a Government department or maybe in Treasury or Grant Robertson\u2019s office\u2014I don\u2019t know. But the more we give away, the less we get to auction, the less revenue comes into the Government, the less money that the Minister might have to allocate\u2014or the Minister for Energy through the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry Fund might have to allocate to projects that this Government wants to progress. So, Minister, this is entirely material: what thinking has gone on around this calculus, and is there anything in this bill that would allow us to potentially get a bit more transparency around what that calculus is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002297db32735818454c8e025cdc1d4aba9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297db32735818454c8e025cdc1d4aba9b\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E No, that\u2019s the annual emissions budget, the emissions trading scheme unit supply process, which takes place within the emissions budgets, that\u2019s based on the advice of the commission under the zero carbon Act. This bill is designed to work out whether companies that are currently entitled to industrial allocation, whether their industrial allocation is accurately based on their actual emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9a35085aa9e47d19a80a836233d8c0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9a35085aa9e47d19a80a836233d8c0c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the member again, can I just warn the member that he is beginning to be quite repetitive about the same issue which is somewhat relevant. He may want to talk about a different clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00227369a6294cc846ef8439e06a323c8c2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227369a6294cc846ef8439e06a323c8c2f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do appreciate your guidance. I guess, from the perspective of somebody who\u2019s new to climate economics\u2014even though I\u2019m an engineer\u2014I can only imagine the people listening at home are trying to determine what the implications of this are; they might find it rather impenetrable. So it has been helpful to get the Minister\u2019s explanations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, there\u2019s a test that I asked officials whether this bill met\u2014in the Environment Committee\u2014and I wasn\u2019t satisfied they were able to give the ACT Party confidence. It is: if a business is manufacturing something in New Zealand\u2014whether they\u2019re manufacturing concrete products, which results in carbon emissions, or whether they\u2019re manufacturing wood pulp, or turning all of that recycled glass that\u2019s collected around New Zealand back into new glass to be made into glass bottles, hopefully filling them up with some tasty beverage, some refreshing beverage, or whether they\u2019re making methanol or urea fertiliser\u2014how do we know whether a New Zealand business is paying the same for their carbon emissions in New Zealand under this bill as a competitor in, say, one of New Zealand\u2019s top-five trading partners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022328f9846cdf34493bf0706ae97aa7ad7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022328f9846cdf34493bf0706ae97aa7ad7\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00229f9b7e75374d4a2ab9627fdc6a9ea0e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f9b7e75374d4a2ab9627fdc6a9ea0e0\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. That is fundamental to this bill. Minister, this bill covers emissions-intensive trade-exposed industries. The question I asked officials is: do the mechanisms under this bill allow us to fairly compare the carbon price a New Zealand manufacturer would pay to that of their competitor in another country, so that an evaluation can be made? Are New Zealand businesses paying a fair carbon price or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00227c0933f72819448385cd76b7bcd58e72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c0933f72819448385cd76b7bcd58e72\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022205d987a12cb4c58beeab8a7a73f42e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022205d987a12cb4c58beeab8a7a73f42e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 409 be agreed to. All those in favour will say Aye, to the contrary, No. The Noes have it. A party vote has been called for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022755810b59d854ebe967929771c7d7602\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think you did the closure motion. You didn\u2019t put the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8beb06b73ca483b84d99beceb3923c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, that\u2019s true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f52892f0122a47429a9389ef7dfd2564\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb270b799ec646129551794d3cb06f91\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. So it does give someone else an opportunity for one last call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002228f075edfd7b4148ac421ba30ecfba71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228f075edfd7b4148ac421ba30ecfba71\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, would you care to explain whether the Supplementary Order Paper making changes to clause 2, 3, 14, the Schedule\u2014I mean, there\u2019s cross-referencing errors in all of this. That\u2019s what it\u2019s designed to correct. And this is errors to a formula of process which was only tabled a few days before the select committee wrapped up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, even in the regulatory impact assessment\u2014I\u2019ve got it here somewhere. It says\u2014oh, here we go, Minister, here we go. Problem identified: \u201CUnder current legislative policy, eligibility to receive industrial allocations is contingent upon two tests, emissions intensity and trade exposure.\u201D How on earth are New Zealand businesses supposed to be confident that allocations under this proposal\u2014that a carbon price, in totality, that a business which benefits from free allocations might pay\u2014will be equivalent to that of a competitor overseas? Minister, we don\u2019t know, and you still haven\u2019t responded to that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, in the regulatory impact assessment it\u2019s quite clear, although amusing: \u201CWe are confident in the analysis in this regulatory impact statement; however, we\u2019re unable to predict the impact at firm level for the subset of activities carried out by a relatively large number of participants. This limits our ability to consider regional impacts at a granular level. We won\u2019t know the eligibility thresholds\u201D and so on and so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, each major industry is unique. I mean, I think I\u2019ve heard you say that it\u2019s almost like New Zealand has five or six factories that this really applies to. And yet there\u2019s no clarity here this evening whether a New Zealand business, competing with imported products\u2014whether it\u2019s precast concrete products made from New Zealand - made cement that are going to be supplied to New Zealand construction projects, made by New Zealanders, supplied to New Zealand jobs\u2014will pay the same carbon price as concrete products manufactured in another jurisdiction not subject to the same regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I have no clarity; people listening at home will have no clarity. That\u2019s the fundamental test: will this bill result in emissions leakage? In other words, businesses leave and make the same stuff overseas but with more carbon emissions than if they\u2019d stayed here. Will this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2e195f2b63947008b8b0fce1e0b8763\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: All hypothetical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed0c2dfaf5d04801868643eb91b87b51\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely hypothetical, the Hon Peeni Henare. This is what this bill is designed to address, Mr Henare, and the Minister\u2019s failed to address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo will New Zealand businesses remain competitive? Will they receive an allocation that means they pay the same carbon price as their competitors? Because, if they don\u2019t, what\u2019s the point in all of this? We\u2019re going to have to go back to the drawing board\u2014aren\u2019t we, Mr Cameron?\u2014should ACT form part of a future Government, because we can\u2019t rely on officials, who say that they\u2019re confident in their analysis but then they\u2019re not confident in the information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2bab1439f394462947f97c3a0959ff5\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I just want to refer to Speaker\u2019s rulings which, I understand, mean that you can\u2019t criticise officials who are in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd0bc0a60d141b2adf35fe7735a3665\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e85654b86804088b2e39bab1f442a4a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m taking the point of order. That is actually correct. Can the member withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0964f93b5ce4b708e3d380b16e6b7b7\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m afraid I\u2019m not aware of any criticism I\u2019ve levelled at officials. So, while the member has made that statement, I\u2019d have to look at the Hansard, but I certainly haven\u2019t intended to criticise any officials, and I don\u2019t believe I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022949bec16d94c4192b40a346daf664d53\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I believe you did in terms of their calculations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b452a1cf31a449709fcc6c2a4abedbe1\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m simply reading from the regulatory impact statement\u2014I\u2019m reading it. I\u2019m not criticising them; I\u2019m reading what they\u2019ve said. That\u2019s OK. I just will proceed. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a matter that needs to be litigated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220381d9e3bed143f09cc3ab1aac46227a\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Then just withdraw and apologise and carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a9a71d5a25c489c8a83f29c7178b0f2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Why? It\u2019s here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bfdd2cc190e4f9d8b4e840633260a7f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member want to continue his call? If he does, he will withdraw and apologise; then he can continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95018a90c00486a94fa347ba28d79c6\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry; it\u2019s contingent on me withdrawing and apologising, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022810b7661463c4d83bc2669579b434d41\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d7992ea61aa4029b884cb85d996ca3e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I withdraw and apologise. And I certainly didn\u2019t mean any offence to officials in the Chamber, but it is clear from page 5 of the regulatory impact statement that there is a conflict of confidence, and that officials wrote that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, can you give us confidence here in the House tonight\u2014people listening at home, the businesses that came to select committee and were really concerned that their business activities, their investments might be undermined by these changes\u2014that they will pay a carbon price equivalent to their competitors overseas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00220578335f6faf4706b1ae168ea8d84bd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220578335f6faf4706b1ae168ea8d84bd8\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E This is an amendment to an existing regime, which is that, since 2008, businesses that are moderately emissions-intensive will receive an allocation equivalent to 60 percent of their emissions\u2014they get that for free from the Government in order to be able to compete with imports from countries which face different or no carbon prices\u2014and that businesses that are highly emissions-intensive will receive 90 percent of their emissions obligations free from the Government in order to remain competitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, carbon prices vary wildly around the world, including among our major trading partners, and they change over time. So, for example, the European Union\u2014with whom we have just signed a free-trade deal, which includes a chapter on climate change and sustainability requiring both parties to uphold their agreements\u2014has a carbon price that\u2019s close to NZ$200 a tonne, which, given that ours is $60, means that they are paying considerably more than we are producing here. At the same time, there are other countries with whom we trade where the carbon price is closer to NZ$20 a tonne, which is about a third of what we pay. And in some countries that we trade with, there is no carbon price at all. So what that means is if there is no global carbon price. The only way to be able to do that on a product-by-product basis would be to apply an average\u2014and we do sit at about the average in terms of our carbon prices at the moment. That is the entire point of the industrial allocation system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, I will admit it is ugly policy. I mean, remember that industrial allocation is subsidising pollution\u2014right?\u2014which seems to run in direct contrast to the entire point of the emissions trading scheme, and it does. The reason that we have industrial allocation is because there is no global carbon price, and because we don\u2019t have carbon border adjustments\u2014or at least we don\u2019t yet. It is conceivable that there will be a point in the future where we are able to have a system of carbon border adjustments which is able to moderate for the variabilities in price between imports from countries that have got different carbon prices to our own, but we are not at that point yet. So, in the meantime, we use industrial allocation to moderate that effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002215afbbf1fb234eeeb6310b1d05b7bc54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215afbbf1fb234eeeb6310b1d05b7bc54\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ee6fc19f075146c2bc4a60c1fb2dc819\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00224c21ef980083412c8c2c51c06f7f9a0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c21ef980083412c8c2c51c06f7f9a0d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 409 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e78ca844af64473bd22d38f21c47215\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001367\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001368\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001369\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002270f37dea2eb94e5b8a3fff92dae18a7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270f37dea2eb94e5b8a3fff92dae18a7d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3f37c6d27a948a8a8c9ce88484fe0f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3f37c6d27a948a8a8c9ce88484fe0f4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002231ebd143d1f84fffb62484c65c286b18\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ea7d72a17e0442db724be272826c1b9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022d29c1667a49c4cd7bad10f7c2e3746c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d29c1667a49c4cd7bad10f7c2e3746c4\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct an answer to an oral question to No. 8 today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002233e370239fff45eb9e7447c3c9997729\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233e370239fff45eb9e7447c3c9997729\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought, is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f78b9f69a8f44f82bac75983087f7c00\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: In the response to a supplementary question I stated that 48 vehicles were seized in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki and the Manawat\u016B under new legislation. I should have said that the 48 vehicles were searched.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f137e25829d44ab6ba720a844ef2cbfc\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f78c663effae444cb79f456c700bd0eb\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002213d2e2d6598f43d2bc4d4eb956a75295\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213d2e2d6598f43d2bc4d4eb956a75295\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Speaker. I have described industrial allocation, as I\u2019ve just said, as ugly policy. The way that it deals with international competitiveness is, essentially, by subsidising pollution, because a New Zealand Unit (NZU) inside the emissions trading scheme is, in essence, a licence to pollute a tonne of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe scheme has been around for almost 15 years now, and the primary way that we have dealt with the differential carbon pricing between domestic production and competing imports from around the world is by, essentially, giving New Zealand businesses that are highly emissions-intensive free units in order to meet their obligations under the emissions trading scheme. Those units are equivalent, if they are highly emissions-intensive, to 90 percent of their total obligation, and if they\u2019re moderately emissions-intensive, it\u2019s 60 percent of their allocation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, since 2008-09, when this scheme was up and running, it has, I believe, been allowed to drift, because there haven\u2019t been any kinds of regular checks to see if the basis on which businesses are being given these units actually still stands. If it does, fine, but if it doesn\u2019t, we need to take a look at that. So over the course of the last few years, we have found that, actually, some businesses have been receiving a number of licences to emit pollution into the atmosphere greater than 100 percent of the total pollution that they do put into the atmosphere. In other words, they\u2019re receiving more permits to pollute than they pollute. Now, that\u2019s nonsensical, and so we need a system to tighten that up and to ensure that there is an accurate basis on which companies are being allocated these units for free. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s not an ideal solution. It\u2019s not an ideal policy\u2014you know, we live in a less than ideal world. In an ideal world, there would be a global carbon price, or\u2014the second-best option\u2014there would be adjustments at the border that could take account of the differential between what domestic production is and the price that\u2019s allocated in the countries where those competing products come from. But we don\u2019t have that system, although the European Union, Canada, Australia, the United States, and others are all looking at that, and so we might see something akin to that occurring over the course of the next few years, in which case this third-best option may come up for review at that time. But that is some way away from where we are today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo, in the meantime, what we do is we do provide these units for free to act as a buffer for companies where they are producing things that\u2014for example, steel, which is a necessary ingredient in modern civilisation. It currently has a very high emissions intensity to it for it to be able to produce that steel here in New Zealand for New Zealand consumption, even whilst we are also importing steel from countries that do not impose the same price\u2014or, in some cases, any price\u2014on steel production, although that is also changing over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThis bill actually does have quite a narrow scope. It really just does deal with the issue of whether we are over-allocating units to those businesses. As I mentioned during the committee of the whole House stage, the most recent year for which we\u2019ve got data shows that we allocated about 6.6 million pollution permits, or NZUs, in the system. If you think about that, that\u2019s about 6.6 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, and our total pollution going into the atmosphere is about 75 million tonnes a year. So it\u2019s an appreciable portion of the total. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, we estimate on a reasonably conservative basis that by tightening up the system in this way we will be handing out 800,000 tonnes fewer worth of pollution permits than we do today. So what that is saying is: well, we\u2019ve been handing out these units and they\u2019re unnecessary, right? They\u2019re not required for international competitiveness matters, but they do create a slackness in the system. And so in that sense, what this bill does is to make the emissions trading scheme both more accurate and also more predictable for the participants in the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI know it has been an anxiety for some of the companies who currently receive allocation that there will be a regular schedule of reviews and of calling for data. But, actually, by being able to check in on a regular basis and to say, well, we know when that\u2019s going to happen as opposed to the current system\u2014which is entirely arbitrary and entirely up to the Minister to do that as and when the whim of the Minister requires\u2014we\u2019ve now got a system where businesses know that there will be these kinds of check-in points and that a check-in point, a call for data and for information, is not the same as changing the allocation. It\u2019s simply saying: is the basis on which those were handed out and those allocations decided\u2014is that basis the same now as it was when it was first allocated? And if there is a case that actually things have changed to a point where a business is again being over allocated, at that point you can review it and change it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI do just again want to acknowledge the work of the select committee. I have to say this is one of those moments where I think that Parliament worked as it is intended to do, where there was some doubt about some parts of the bill and the select committee worked very hard on drilling into that, given that it is, you know, kind of technically challenging to get into and did require expert support\u2014as I mentioned, the Climate Change Commission, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, and others, independent experts, particularly Dr Christina Hood, who came in I think two or three times into the select committee to support them. The select committee asked for additional time to grapple with this and get it right. Again, I just want to acknowledge the work that every member of the Environment Committee did to ensure that this bill landed in as good shape as it did. I really thank them for that. And I particularly want to acknowledge the chair of the Environment Committee, the Hon Eugenie Sage, who in my opinion is a superb chair of that committee and did a great job of dealing with this issue; also with many of the other very complex issues that the Environment Committee was dealing with simultaneously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b9b91bb4de94e5aab0a89d009a5a73b\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: You should keep her on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd0128cb2f5545aca33a7ba801b8d1f5\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: I would love to keep her on. So, having said all of that, I do think that this bill has landed in very good shape. I think it has been improved significantly as a result of the parliamentary process. I would like to thank the National Party, Te Paati M\u0101ori, and other parties for supporting this Government bill. I think having a level of parliamentary consensus\u2014not complete consensus but a very high level of parliamentary consensus\u2014on this sends a very reassuring signal to the industries that are participants in it, and they can rest assured that it has been thoroughly worked over by both sides of the House, through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI do think that this bill does help to futureproof the emissions trading scheme. There are other aspects of the emissions trading scheme which are up for review and which we need to get to, but this is a reasonably narrow but very important component of what it is that we need to do. And that is accurately determining the rates of industrial allocation and ensuring that there is a framework to upgrade them in the future, which we have not had for the last 15 years or so of that. So the changes that we make today will help us to meet our emissions budget by having a more accurate and a tighter system. It will help us to meet our international obligations. It will make it a little bit easier to meet our otherwise very challenging broader climate change goals. And it also will offer a bit of relief to those small foresters who I think were kind of unfairly or unreasonably exposed under the old penalties regime. So by updating the penalties regime, it does provide some more reassurance there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s a very good bill. I thank the House for it. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002240e7254f7ccd404993af51c41d5ecb5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240e7254f7ccd404993af51c41d5ecb5a\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on the third reading of the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill. As has been traversed already this evening, the National Party will be continuing to support this bill. As we have outlined in prior contributions, this bill does deal with two key aspects, which, in our view, are pragmatic adjustments in regards to issues that do exist and the resolution of them, particularly around the industrial allocations. It will strengthen the emissions trading scheme and provide greater certainty in regards to the market and the way in which we deal with those components.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe certainty is important in regards to the signals that this sends to the broader market\u2014I think, as the Minister of Climate Change has outlined, in areas such as this, in an area of public policy that is so critical to our country and our economy, the ability that we can, in effect, work together around ensuring that these changes are consistent and put in place, I think, stands us in good stead as we head towards dealing with what will be a very difficult and challenging objective around reducing the emissions, but one in which National are absolutely committed that we need to and will work towards meeting net zero by 2050.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked at length around the industrial allocations portion, which I think is probably the most applicable component. We have acknowledged those people. And I also want to join with the Minister in acknowledging the chair of the Environment Committee, Hon Eugenie Sage, who, obviously, will be retiring at this point. But I do just wonder if you want to indulge a little bit\u2014I just want to recognise that member\u2019s contribution. The way in which this bill was navigated\u2014it is a complex bill, and it was done so very professionally. I have had the ability, albeit a small amount of time, to work with that member and have always valued their council in regards to a number of elements and bills in this House. So I wish her very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to that, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anything further that we are really wanting to place on the record. We acknowledge that there are going to be a number of other needs, particularly in the coming years where modifications and further check-ins are required. This is an area that is evolving, and it is important that we continue to ensure that we are up to date. The reality of where we are seeing developments in more of the global space around new options that are coming on the table is both exciting but also they are ones which will need to be worked through appropriately to ensure that the specific needs of our country and our economy, and the needs which make us so unique and special, are taken into account as part of that process. But we will do so in a manner in which is collaborative and in a manner in which, as always, will enable us to achieve our net zero targets by 2050. We commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002236f71de738df492bba39413adeddfb5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236f71de738df492bba39413adeddfb5c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E There were a number of proposals made and presented to the Environment Committee when we were scrutinising this bill, including things like overall phase-out rates, capping the overall allocation to make it consistent with the emissions trading scheme cap, and the use of international benchmarks\u2014all of which were outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut in a sort of post-script in the committee\u2019s report, it noted that there is much to be done beyond the scope of the bill to tackle the broader design of industrial climate change policy\u2014and I quote from the committee\u2019s report\u2014so that we can \u201Cmove from a system that locks in [high]-emissions [industrial] activities, to one that [supports a rapid low-carbon transition].\u201D The committee noted that the second emissions reductions plan, due to be developed next year, is an ideal opportunity to \u201Cset a new direction for industry policy\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI just want to finish this brief contribution by saying to the House that it is surely time that we get more serious about reducing carbon emissions, that we try to find the policy settings that will genuinely incentivise rapid decarbonisation, and not provide free allocations that subsidise carbon pollution in perpetuity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002237f2395301c44b3e8ff939b3463e7b53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237f2395301c44b3e8ff939b3463e7b53\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, I\u2019m not going to take a long call this time, because we\u2019ve largely traversed what has been in this bill over the stage of the readings and the committee stage. But I think what I really would like to say is that it\u2019s good to see again the recalibration of something that is a constantly moving. We need to have the emissions trading scheme dynamic, we need to have it constantly adjusting and changing, and we need to have the ability to review things often as technology and research development and science move us forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s very important, particularly as we don\u2019t have cross-border regimes and we are competing with other parts of the world and this gives our own businesses a chance to compete on a level playing field at this point in time. I mean, at some point the world may catch up, but we\u2019ve always said that it\u2019s important that it\u2019s not up to us to lead the world, but to actually move with the world and do our bit, and these adjustments help us to do that with our businesses. So with that, I would like to commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00225ca7587d82284e79a7a42a0105245621\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ca7587d82284e79a7a42a0105245621\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker\u2014final speech for me for the night, speaking on the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill. I really think we probably could\u2019ve done better with the name\u2014I really do. Look, this is a good bill. We\u2019ve traversed the issues quite thoroughly, I think. I\u2019m going to make a very short contribution, but I do want to acknowledge the Minister, the Hon James Shaw. He has always worked really well with our Environment Committee and came and briefed us and spoke with us, was open to changes, and was absolutely useful in terms of the process of getting the legislation across. We had good conversations, and I want to just acknowledge you, sir, for your work. I\u2019m not going to call you a deity, however, but I do want to acknowledge the way that you worked with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the technical detail of this legislation, and I want to just particularly acknowledge one of our clerks who did some extraordinary work getting this piece of legislation into a really readable format. So, Jacob, our clerk who did this work: I\u2019d like to acknowledge you for the work that you did pulling this very technical piece of legislation together and helping us draft a report that\u2019s really readable and accessible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWith that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd4b9219c9c4409c9f08f609deb0ac0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd4b9219c9c4409c9f08f609deb0ac0e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do want to thank the Minister for his forthright responses to the questions that the ACT Party wanted answers to during the committee of the whole House stage, but, unfortunately, we\u2019re not satisfied and we won\u2019t be able to support this bill proceeding any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe Minister himself described this piece of legislation\u2014in fact, the bill of the Act that this legislation seeks to amend\u2014as representing ugly policy. The ACT Party would contend that this Government\u2019s climate policy is being played on a playing field that\u2019s so messy, no one can see where the lines are marked anymore. This Minister\u2014this Labour Government, supported by a Green climate Minister\u2014has made so many announcements about the emissions trading scheme, about the role of forestry, whether pine trees are in or out, whether pine trees or trees at all get the same amount of recognition for storing carbon as any other type of carbon storage, that it\u2019s created confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s created enormous uncertainty, to the extent that the last two auctions under the emissions trading scheme, where the Government tried to release carbon credits into the market to raise some revenue to fund all their other green boondoggles, failed. Which means that instead of collecting the $1.4 billion that this Government relies on\u2014that Labour relies on in order to fund its climate hogwash policies and boondoggles and handouts to big business\u2014they don\u2019t have the money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister responded in the Environment Committee when I asked him this question: considering this legislation, what are you going to do if we don\u2019t have the money, Minister? How is the Government going to fulfil its obligations, all the promises it\u2019s making? He said, \u201COh, there\u2019s two more auctions to go. We\u2019ll cross that bridge when we come to it.\u201D Again, the Minister repeated it in the House tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party does not believe that is the way to establish enduring climate policy that leads to enduring reductions in greenhouse gas emissions; that provides certainty to New Zealand businesses and those who might wish to come and invest in New Zealand; that if they come to New Zealand and buy a business or establish a new business or process and they invest in decarbonising or efficiency or reducing greenhouse gas emissions, that it will be worth it. None of that is clear. This bill has not made it any clearer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWorse than that, New Zealand businesses that manufacture here, that employ tens of thousands of people\u2014whether it\u2019s in Taranaki or Tangiwai in the central North Island; or remanufacturing glass from recycled glass in Penrose; or making methanol from New Zealand\u2019s rich natural gas resource; or making urea fertiliser, again from New Zealand\u2019s rich natural gas resource\u2014don\u2019t know whether the costs imposed by Government under this legislation will mean that they\u2019re paying the same carbon price\u2014or a fair carbon price\u2014as their competitors. It is still unknown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe Minister did provide this information, which was helpful, that, at the moment, around 6.6 million carbon units are allocated to industry, which means they don\u2019t have to pay the full price of their emissions\u2014around about $60 a tonne at the moment. So it is a significant level of assistance to New Zealand industry. The downside of that is, of course, that that reduces the incentives on these businesses to decarbonise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut what we don\u2019t know is whatever the price these businesses are paying overall for carbon, is it more or less than their competitors overseas? Does it put New Zealand jobs at risk? Does it risk de-industrialising New Zealand? Does it put our strategic position at risk? It\u2019s especially important at this time, where the Government\u2019s own defence review has indicated that this Government is concerned about the risks of instability in the North Pacific\u2014the risk to our supply lines, the risk to logistics\u2014and keeping big industries here that make things like pulp and paper and methanol and fertiliser means that we are less exposed to the risk of conflict in other countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis legislation, the impacts of this legislation are material for New Zealand\u2019s economic and social stability as well as our security in an increasingly unstable world. We have to see this bill, which appears to some as impenetrable climate economics, as something that, if we don\u2019t get it right, could lead New Zealand to lose industries. Now, if the fertiliser manufacturer at Kapuni closes down\u2014they\u2019re currently making fertiliser in a really, really cool process where they turn natural gas out of the ground into ammonia gas and then into ammonia urea fertiliser. This is a plant built in the 1980s in New Zealand, actually funded by Government at the time, but now having been sold off\u2014Minister Henare, I know you\u2019re concerned about selling assets\u2014sold off to the private sector. Guess what! Still manufactures fertiliser, that fertiliser still goes on Kiwi farms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe alternative is\u2014and this is where we get back to this issue of national security and resilience; supply chain resilience\u2014fertiliser would have to be imported from other countries, potentially Canada, potentially China, potentially Africa, potentially Europe, Turkey. The supply lines are a lot longer. The costs of transporting are a lot greater. And, of course, New Zealand has no control over the emissions in those countries and what they pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill tries to solve a wicked problem. The problem is wicked. It\u2019s difficult. It\u2019s ugly, as Minister Shaw said, and the ACT Party would agree. But it doesn\u2019t mean that we shouldn\u2019t try very, very hard to solve it in a way that provides transparency for New Zealand businesses. Certainty for those wishing to invest in New Zealand, confidence to those workers in places like Tangiwai in the Central North Island, who work in Taranaki, South Auckland, that the manufacturing businesses will continue and won\u2019t be subject to cost penalties that their competitors overseas don\u2019t face, and which means that their jobs will be lost. That\u2019s called carbon leakage, where businesses that produce carbon face a higher carbon price than they can contend with and they shut down and move to another country where the carbon price isn\u2019t so high. It\u2019s a wicked problem. But this policy is more than ugly, the Minister was gilding the lily, he was painting the face of this policy with some late night lipstick. It\u2019s still a pig. It\u2019s an ugly pig.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what would ACT do? Because it\u2019s important to consider what the options are. We need to consider the opportunity cost. We take one path\u2014it seems like there\u2019s some benefits down that path\u2014but the other path might have benefits as well. We have to weigh up the opportunity costs of every decision we make. And it\u2019s quite clear from the regulatory impact statement\u2014that apparently triggered the feelings of some in the House\u2014that while the officials said they\u2019re confident in the analysis, they immediately go on to describe how unconfident they are. How unconfident they are, how unconfident. This is a wicked problem to solve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat would ACT do? Well, it\u2019s quite simple. Here\u2019s what looks like a policy that might work: we propose a realistic, no-nonsense climate change policy that ties our emissions price to that of our top-five trading partners. How do you do that, you say? Well, it\u2019s possible. I got a report from the Parliamentary Library just yesterday updating the price of all of New Zealand\u2019s competitors who manufacture the same products that this bill will apply cost to. It\u2019s possible that if New Zealand sets a cap on our emissions at the same level as our competitors are managing to cap their emissions and reduce them year on year, then it\u2019s possible\u2014in fact, likely, based on the analysis that ACT has seen\u2014that the carbon price New Zealand businesses will face will on average be equivalent to the carbon price manufacturers in other countries face. That will provide a transparent and obvious pathway with much greater certainty for those willing to invest in New Zealand. It will allow New Zealand to meet its climate commitments to fulfil our international obligations and allow consumers to choose how they pay for their emissions and how they choose to reduce them or offset them in some way. If you emit less, under ACT\u2019s policy, you keep more of your own money. How easy is that, how cool is that? That\u2019s ACT\u2019s offer to New Zealand. It\u2019s not ugly; it\u2019s beautiful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u002221a0e3dc0cbb4233bf465e4ea5b031d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221a0e3dc0cbb4233bf465e4ea5b031d6\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to take just a short call on the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill. While I do not sit on the Environment Committee, I do chair Labour\u2019s Infrastructure, Environment and Transport caucus, and I do receive updates from the Labour Environment Committee. I\u2019ve also sat on just a couple of the Environment Committee hui while they were working through this bill. The work was immense; I see that, and I want to acknowledge the Environment Committee but also add to those other accolades for the chair\u2014the very knowledgeable and extremely capable Eugenie Sage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThis bill modernises the decades-old industrial allocation settings. This bill ensures businesses will receive an appropriate amount of NZ Units. It addresses over-allocation, reduces costs to Government, and aligns Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s climate respond targets. Again, I mihi to the select committee, but also to the Minister, James Shaw, to make sure that they\u2019re doing the mahi that protects Papat\u016B\u0101nuku and Te Taiao. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd947d9b65cc4f9ea98cd22b8bc5b080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd947d9b65cc4f9ea98cd22b8bc5b080\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a short call on this bill tonight. I just want to acknowledge that we do have near-unanimous support for the bill. It\u2019s an excellent bill. It\u2019s a straightforward bill. It basically sorts out the issue, which is that the current industrial allocation settings in the emissions trading scheme haven\u2019t been updated in over a decade, and that means that there are extra costs to Government, in that some emitting firms are receiving more emission units than they should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a pretty straightforward bill. We\u2019ve got good support across the House for it. I thank the Minister and select committee and, of course, most importantly, officials for their work. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3b2565ede4a4da5b5433670131984df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3b2565ede4a4da5b5433670131984df\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This a split call. Five minutes\u2014Ian McKelvie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c53e46517b32439ebb4fba87db38dc66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c53e46517b32439ebb4fba87db38dc66\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank goodness, for that, Mr Speaker. I don\u2019t often agree with Rachel Boyack\u2014I\u2019ve never really wanted to disagree with her, but I\u2019ve got to disagree with her on one point: this is not a straightforward bill. Ha, ha! Some bits of it are straightforward, but some bits of it are immensely complicated. But while they\u2019re complicated and I did cover this in my second reading speech; I don\u2019t need to cover it again now. I think this bill will be back in the House\u2014well, not this bill, but there will certainly be further amendments to this bill made in the near future, as a result of the second half of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe second speech I made in this House would have lasted about 30 seconds\u2014this one\u2019s lasted about 50, and it\u2019s my second-last. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9b5aa15fd024f6c912e42efda316f6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9b5aa15fd024f6c912e42efda316f6e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll be missed, Mr McKelvie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bea9a523e42a46af808e740d83c2823c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bea9a523e42a46af808e740d83c2823c\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I too will take a short call tonight on the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233fa17c61a14494294df9981c7c858ba\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Just repeat this a couple of times and you\u2019ll\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994482d76d6e453ba80650d9757e73ae\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I did feel like repeating it. I would like to start by acknowledging the Environment Committee and in particular the chair, the Hon Eugenie Sage, being a constituent of mine who also lives in Banks Peninsula and a very valued member of this House, and someone who has made an enormous contribution across many different portfolios over a period of time. We will miss her greatly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThis bill allows allocative baselines to be updated with new data, it allows reassessment of the eligibility of current industries, and it comprises four technical improvements to industrial allocation policy. So, on the basis of that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022d09ce053816e48ff8ff723ad7829c3f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d09ce053816e48ff8ff723ad7829c3f2\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is a bill that recalibrates the system. It provides access and equity, and\u2014as the previous speaker said\u2014most importantly, I believe, it updates the baseline use for measurement, because when the baseline is accurate, everything else follows from that, but if it\u2019s not quite calibrated, it can be a house of cards. Therefore, it also reduces the risk going into the future for this sophisticated, complicated, yet also very worthwhile sector, which is the carbon emissions sector. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00228cfc8a6ab10f40a5b2a5fbf22f772d88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cfc8a6ab10f40a5b2a5fbf22f772d88\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I rise to take the last call for the National Party this evening. The Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill\u2014I agree with my colleague Angie Warren-Clark, it\u2019s a bit of a mouthful, and it has been tonight. It\u2019s been interesting listening to this debate, particularly the position that\u2019s been taken by the ACT Party and that Simon Court has been courting controversy again on behalf of the ACT Party, acting up in relation to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo the National Party supports this bill and that there seems to be recognition across the House that this climate change, in this day and age, and the responsiveness to late payment penalties and industrial allocation, particularly around the industrial allocations and small forestry participants\u2014that this bill, in summary, introduces a revised penalty for small forestry participants in the New Zealand emissions trading scheme (ETS) who failed to pay units on time, mitigating their risk of facing serious financial hardship, and that it\u2019s good to see the Government taking the concerns of small forestry participants seriously, and that the bill also amends the New Zealand ETS industrial or free allocation provisions in the Climate Change Response Act 2002 to reduce the risk of over-allocation of units to emissions-intensive and trade-exposed industries, which currently cost the Crown approximately $60 million a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s positive to see the Government working to improve alignment with New Zealand\u2019s national and global climate change commitments. On that basis, the National Party commends this bill to the House at its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00224278dfc37680468895f6d6c306abbd5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224278dfc37680468895f6d6c306abbd5b\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As the last speaker for this side of the House, I wish to support the Climate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill at its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThere have been many contributions tonight on this bill. I want to acknowledge the Environment Committee members; I am a member of that committee. In particular, I also want to acknowledge the chair who has done a stellar job, in terms of collegiality in working across; thank the officials and especially submitters and, in particular, Dr Christina Hood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe Government policy wants to really look at climate change. There have been a number of proposals to the select committee. In my short contribution, there were proposals made outside the scope of the bill. We want to move to a system that supports low-carbon transition. We traversed the bill in the committee stage, and the ability to move forward\u2014it is important that the system is tightened up and it is complex, and we\u2019ve heard those contributions, in terms of the emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWe need to have accuracy and make it easier to meet the climate change goals. In particular, just as I finish, the small forestry participants require the repayment of units by the due date or those that fail to surrender that. It is a good bill, and, in its complexity, has technical changes. I want to thank the Minister James Shaw. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001441\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002289aee56906eb438c8e068ab6431c1d3e\u0022\u003ETaxation Principles Reporting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022930e10fd0f294e40b85ed74e7e8c332d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00220e6d710038ba47a99f62ce168b4c2586\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e6d710038ba47a99f62ce168b4c2586\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022142062e82ffe42c6b11f79097b6deeaf\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022752df9fb94c045fabd2f9089434bfa4e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI wish to begin this speech by acknowledging the vision and insight of the chief architect of this bill, the Hon David Parker. We are fortunate to have someone with such intellect in this House. This bill is an historic one for a tax bill: it imposes no taxes. It also makes no changes to obligations on taxpayers, but it improves taxation in New Zealand. It is a bill for our times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIts genesis stretches back in history, yet it prepares future Governments to face future challenges. We are all aware of just what types of challenges those could be. In just this parliamentary term alone, this bill has passed legislation to respond to some major crises, crises which have made heavy demands on the public purse\u2014from the effects of Cyclone Gabrielle and the Auckland anniversary weekend floods to the arrival on our shores of COVID-19 and the global cost of living crisis. In a globalised world and with our globalised economy, we have to be prepared for overseas events to have a ripple effect on our economy. And with the effects of climate change, we have to brace for ever more frequent weather events. The calls on taxpayer dollars will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, we\u2019re staring down the barrel of some major threats to the integrity of the tax system, the longer-term sustainability of tax revenues, and future Governments\u2019 ability to respond. We know a crunch is coming, with more New Zealanders living longer and associated health costs rising, even as the tax burden falls on the shoulders of a smaller group of earners. There is a limit to how much Governments can tax those earners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOur tax system is a national asset. Like any asset, it needs to be invested in, maintained, and adapted to suit changing times. Without a properly functioning tax system, our government, our economy, and our society would quickly grind to a halt. We need to ensure that people continue to comply with the tax laws, knowing what they need to do and being able to comply at a reasonable cost. Our focus must be to ensure that the tax system is as efficient as possible, that it supports our economy, and that it upholds fairness, transparency, and integrity\u2014and those are principles of taxation. It\u2019s not a new idea: in 1776, Adam Smith in the Wealth of Nations set out four maxims of taxation. Broadly speaking, these were that all should contribute a proportional amount according to their means, that there should be certainty and transparency about tax, that compliance costs should be minimised, and that the administrative cost of collecting tax should be as little as possible over and above the amount of tax paid. These were good ideas then, and according to the various tax reform committees we\u2019ve had in this country, these principles continue to be good ideas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe 1981-82 McCaw committee, for instance, was appointed because the tax system was increasingly seen by the public as unfair and lacking integrity. Economic commentators saw high tax rates and uneven rules as significantly contributing to New Zealand\u2019s poor economic performance. The committee recommended a more transparent tax system where tax rates were lower but applied more consistently in practice. The aim was a more honest system that would lead to economic decisions being made more on economic merits rather than being determined by the pursuit of tax advantages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe 2001 McLeod review was of the view that a framework of tax policy principles is needed to guide the reform of a complex tax system and to avoid ad hoc changes. In their view, the key focus of tax policy was to enhance the overall economic wellbeing of New Zealanders by seeking ways to reduce the costs of imposing taxes\u2014or making the tax system more efficient\u2014while promoting fairness and continuing to raise revenue. They also argued that the absence of a coherent approach to tax policy made for instability and uncertainty and higher costs for both administration and compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe committee recommended that tax design should be guided by generally accepted principles of fairness\u2014that is, people in the same position should be treated similarly, people should contribute in accordance with their ability to pay, and tax reform should be transparent and prospective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn 2010, the Victoria University of Wellington Tax Working Group stated tax principles that were similar to those of their predecessors, and it noted that the tax system lacked coherence, integrity, and fairness. They found that compliance was likely to be affected by perceptions that the system is unfair. Their report recommended six principles for a sound tax system: efficiency and growth, equity and fairness, revenue integrity, fiscal cost, compliance and administration cost, and the coherence of the tax system as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo we have long known that fairness and transparency are desirable. We have always known that compliance is jeopardised if the public view the tax system as unfair. To improve fairness, our tax reform committees have recommended various changes using similar tax principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, of course, members of this House have different views on this elusive beast called \u201Cfairness\u201D and how to achieve it. But a good place to start any debate on the fairness of the tax system is with some facts. This bill will require Inland Revenue to produce reports that provide facts about the tax system in relation to these tax principles. Then members can get on with the work of actually building on those facts and making changes to make the tax system fairer\u2014or more efficient or less costly, depending on the particular trade-offs that members want to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis was something that the select committee looking at this bill emphasised: tax principles should be seen as a package rather than individually because they overlap or can conflict, and so require trade-offs to be made. Any proposal for a change of tax policy is likely to be a blend of various tax principles, improving on some grounds and lessening on others. The trade-offs that are made speak to the state of the tax system currently and to the value and focus of whoever is making the proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIf New Zealanders can see for themselves how the tax system works and understand that trade-offs are required, we stand a better chance of maintaining our tax base and, crucially, maintaining Government\u2019s ability to continue providing the services that New Zealand relies on. I think that New Zealanders want that transparency. Submitters to the select committee were generally supportive of the objective of the bill. Many were supportive of the notion of tax principles and the obligation on officials to report to New Zealand on the performance of the tax system against those principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI am immensely grateful to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their work on the bill. They have listened to all the submissions that made some sensible recommendations for improvement. These include changes to the descriptors of the principles themselves. The changes will help ensure that the principles are more enduring. They have also recommended a later commencement date to avoid retrospective application. The commencement date now proposed is the date of Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI do intend to make two small changes to the descriptions of the principles in Schedule\u00A01. The first is to link coherence more closely with the principles of certainty and predictability, and the second is to clarify what is meant by \u201Cmiddle New Zealanders\u201D in relation to the principle of vertical equity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI also want to thank the officials from Inland Revenue who worked on the bill and the many people and organisations who contributed to it through the select committee process. As I said at the start, this bill does not propose any new taxes or change any tax obligations, but it is for the benefit of ordinary taxpayers. It brings much-needed transparency and understanding to the inner workings of the tax system. It sets the grounds for a principled debate. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f602687ad6e34730b09fca21f0c2912f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f602687ad6e34730b09fca21f0c2912f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I congratulate the member on her sense of timing. The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House is suspended until 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308157f31d1780ed543199b8a926dd242bf44001463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 11.55 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a0210933a224cc3a0b487167984b494\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 15 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd5957cf9e4548c4ae33d8692590852a\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 17 August 2023)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221122ffbddf53461c904a2efebdb7ff14\u0022\u003ETaxation Principles Reporting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223434b262e2c44274bdf0d7b5491ea039\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00226b9f794839c042ceb093d5fb8ef910c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b9f794839c042ceb093d5fb8ef910c9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. The House was last considering the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. We continue with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022449a21a2115646ca9d9554dd588fc389\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022449a21a2115646ca9d9554dd588fc389\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, good morning, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s nice to be back in urgency but not nice to be discussing this bill. In fact, this is probably the most misnamed bill on the urgency motion. I had to laugh last night when Dr Russell, in moving the second reading, praised \u201Cthe vision and insight of the chief architect of the bill, the Hon David Parker.\u201D, only the chief architect of the bill has thrown his toys out and walked away from the revenue portfolio when the Prime Minister specifically ruled out the wealth tax that this bill sets the framework for. Now, he didn\u2019t walk from Cabinet, he didn\u2019t lose all the baubles; he just threw his toys out and said, \u201CBarbara Edmonds, you can have the revenue portfolio.\u201D, and then that esteemed tax expert Dr Deborah Russell gets the associate revenue portfolio. But we should be under no illusion that this bill is setting the information framework to enable a wealth tax to be introduced, and when the PM ruled it out, Mr Parker was off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut here\u2019s why I think a wealth tax is still on the cards. If the election delivers a cobbled-together coalition of the left, with Labour, the Greens, and Te Paati M\u0101ori, I think an absolute condition of the two parties who are overtly committed to a wealth tax\u2014and the one party that likes the idea of a wealth tax but understands for political reasons that it can\u2019t say so now\u2014will, by coalition, be to bring a wealth tax to an economy near us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe other reason I think that is quite simple: they haven\u2019t thrown this bill out. If they truly believed that a wealth tax was not on the cards in the foreseeable future, why do we need this information framework? Because what this bill does is it repeats the report that David Parker had commissioned over the last couple of years to report on economic income that is not taxed under current income tax law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, in his first report, he went after the 279 so-called wealthy individuals who have untaxed economic income and then threw that in the denominator, put the amount of tax paid in the numerator, and decided that they were paying half the tax of \u201CJoe Average\u201D. The issue with this bill is that the reporting requirements that the Commissioner of Inland Revenue has do not make such a distinction. The Commissioner of Inland Revenue is required to prepare a report every year on all of the principle measures and the impact on the tax system, and those principles include economic income as part of vertical equity. Now, they\u2019re all fancy words, but they, essentially, boil down to the same thing. That is how much growth in wealth is being experienced in New Zealand that is not being taxed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022101644d41ee9492083c83e4f1325dc6f\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What has he got against transparency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d876c915e83b448a8ea9710d4280ae47\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing. It\u2019s consistency, Dr Clark, that I want. Let\u2019s lead on to consistency. We have discussion in here\u2014and I\u2019m prepared to argue against the regressivity of GST or at least to say that, among the economic commentators, there are arguments for and against the degree to which GST is progressive, regressive, or flat. What it shouldn\u2019t be\u2014particularly in a principled tax framework, Dr Clark\u2014is cherry-picked and have fruit and vegetables, however they are defined, suddenly taken out for political reasons. It was not principles that led to the Government\u2019s announcement last week, Dr Clark; it was politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI had to love Dr Russell quoting the 1776 tome from that esteemed father of capitalism, Adam Smith\u2014the first Labour MP, I think, in my 15 years in this House to ever proudly quote Adam Smith. [Interruption] Yes, she was. She\u2019d obviously gone to the Parliamentary Library and grabbed it, although, to be fair, she might be the only one, along with David Parker, who actually has a copy of Adam Smith\u2019s The Wealth of Nations. I have it on Kindle. It\u2019s a very good albeit long read. David Parker\u2019s probably got it there beside his Piketty volumes, but being the anti-capitalist that he is deep down\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d04674f6fb724f1ab3be829f53a57a5f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! And back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267b1c560808948e990c7687aa9c544cb\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s about the speech that Dr Russell gave in her second reading contribution. She quoted Adam Smith and said the tax system should be transparent, as Dr Clark said\u2014but this tax system under Labour isn\u2019t\u2014and that compliance costs should be minimised\u2014well, I dare say that that\u2019s not going to happen when GST on fruit and vegetables is removed\u2014and that the administrative cost of collecting tax should be as little as possible. Again, a gross breach of the very taxation principles that this Government purports to espouse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAnd who is wealthy? We haven\u2019t got a definition of it. Now, David Parker went after, I think, 279 of the wealthiest individuals. [Interruption] Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick will tell me\u2014was it a 9 percent effective tax rate on their economic income? Something like that\u2014terrible. Only, all of the difference is in unrealised changes in wealth, so those individuals would have to come up with millions and millions of dollars to pay for the things that Labour are spending money on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWhen challenged on talkback radio, David Parker said, \u201CWell, they\u2019re worth on average a quarter of a billion dollars each. They\u2019re bound to find some cash down the back of the couch.\u201D I\u2019m paraphrasing, but that was pretty much what he said. That doesn\u2019t sound very principled to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENor indeed if we are talking about principles and economic income overall, it\u2019s all economic income, including on family homes. Now, I\u2019m not proposing a capital gains tax or a wealth tax on family homes but the inconsistency is here: if in Deborah Russell\u2019s electorate of New Lynn an average homeowner bought a house five years ago for $1\u00A0million, because of the Government\u2019s profligate spending driving inflation up now that home is worth $1.5 million. In those five years, they\u2019ve earned more in the increase in value of their house than they have working as a tradie\u2014that\u2019s untaxed. Now, nobody\u2019s talking about that over there, and nor are we here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut if the same plumber lives in Balclutha\u2014listen up\u2014owns a $500,000 house and buys a $350,000 rental property, which over the same five years increases to half a million dollars, the wealth increase, the economic income on that second house, is $150,000, and that plumber would have to pay probably $40,000 to $50,000 in income tax\u2014a lower capital gain but a higher tax bill. How principled is that? But that\u2019s what this Government will give us. The really sad thing about this is they\u2019re not going after the big fish that they said they would. In 2017 and 2016 when I was the Minister of Revenue, the big issue was base erosion and profit shifting\u2014multinational companies moving transfer costs and interest to reduce income earned in higher-taxpaying countries to record taxable income in lower-tax jurisdictions. And the OECD has been battling this for years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAfter initially sending a bill to this House to, again, create an information framework, nothing has been done by this Government on the thing that they said was the number one revenue issue during the Key/English years. So this is a really disappointing piece of legislation, but it reveals much, much more about the Government\u2019s intention for wealth. They are coming for unrealised economic income. They are coming for your cribs and your baches and the shares in the plumbing firm\u2014they are going to tax them if they\u2019re still in office on 14 October, and the public need to know about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe Minister says, \u201COh, this isn\u2019t about collecting a single dollar of tax.\u201D Yes, it is. She then went on and listed all the reasons why this Government needs more tax. Where are they going to get it from? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d91f1a8e07d441b09a7aa9c183db683d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e748ca0bf92244c69f7689d805cf14e0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463521fdfde249fea2b439fee2f3d996\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re going to get it from the untaxed economic income that is coming out of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa1c33617a694016b15c3ccc516dc709\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa1c33617a694016b15c3ccc516dc709\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but the members to my right who have continually questioned the relevancy of the speech and the context of the speech in terms of the Standing Orders and the Speakers\u2019 rulings have a remedy. They can take a point of order and just see where that takes them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022c510321f4a7541ea8797e26e9d6c2014\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c510321f4a7541ea8797e26e9d6c2014\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E What a load of scaremongering. What are the Opposition afraid of? If there was ever a myth that keeps poor people poor, it is the myth of fairness without transparency, especially when the conditions of fairness are assumed and not agreed or are conceptualised without data, and then they\u2019re sterilised from political analysis because they\u2019re deemed separate, distinct, discrete, and devoid of influence because they belong in the realms of an objective economy, an objective rules-based system. This is modern-day mythology. It\u2019s lazy analysis, and one of the most powerful fabrications of our political system is that the tax system is based on generalised symptoms of fairness, which no diagnosing practitioner worth their reputation would ever attest to. It is classism disguised as a rules-based system in the 21st century, yet nobody really knows the rules, because nobody can test them against a backdrop of real principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill is groundbreaking. It unpacks what is meant by \u201Cfairness\u201D into six fundamental taxation principles, without hierarchy, so that policy trade-offs can be fairly understood. It doesn\u2019t seek to rank them. Rather it seeks to inform those impacted about the trade-offs so they can understand what is understood as \u201Cfair\u201D in the context. It also reflects a common understanding that a good tax system involves different trade-offs at different times. This is in the context of the high-net-worth individuals research data that reveals some people in our society pay a real tax rate of 9\u00A0percent while others pay around 20 percent. It requires income and wealth situations to be transparent, measurable, and comparable so that policies can be created against a backdrop of baselines, not assumptions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis obvious yet revolutionary law sets up the ability for New Zealand to make tax rules based on real data and inequalities and disparities in wellbeing by setting out openly the accepted tax principles. It requires us to enunciate the principles at play, the trade-offs, and the anticipated benefits through the Inland Revenue commissioner. Anyone who sees this as hard to do is ducking for cover. Why wouldn\u2019t they want a baseline of real data from which to make their policy? The legislation gives the IRD the tools to get real data to form a real baseline from which to make real policy. It shows, transparently, the principles at play, the trade-offs, and the assumptions underpinning the tax system. It allows for open, transparent discussions on tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard about the principles: horizontal equity, vertical equity, efficiency, integrity, coherence, and flexibility. These are all well accepted\u2014they are well-accepted principles, but what I\u2019m really proud of\u2014as a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014is that when we look at inequality, we are also able to consider comparative wellbeing. That puts wellbeing across the economy, both in the Public Finance Act and the Public Service Act, and now into the tax system in a way where we can really understand what the impact is of our policies, not just the inputs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really proud of this bill. I commend the Minister who shepherded it for so long through the process, the Hon David Parker, and I\u2019m really proud to be standing here today seeing this come into the House. I commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7c9821ca3e34cfe93308a319f298ef5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7c9821ca3e34cfe93308a319f298ef5\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. For those who may be watching on their television sets or listening on their wirelesses, we\u2019re in a strange situation in the Parliament\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568698c8a2ad41d7b40fee77c0343fb6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Wireless?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223356d5e74c324427a916d9950abf21cf\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: The crystal sets? Perhaps there are some people listening on their crystal sets. John Banks always used to say that people would be listening on their crystal sets. I remember him referring to that regularly. But here we are on a Thursday morning in parliamentary urgency. It\u2019s a weird kind of a thing for people who are not part of the parliamentary process, because the calendars around the debating chamber still say Tuesday, 15 August. The reason we\u2019re doing this is because we\u2019re in the last, dying days of the current Labour administration. Their shambolic legislative programme is being pushed through under urgency, and this bill\u2014the second reading of the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill\u2014is just one of a suite of ideologically driven bills that the current Government is trying to push through before their term in office comes to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we oppose this legislation. We oppose it quite simply because we know, in the National Party at least, that we don\u2019t need to have a piece of legislation that tells politicians about how tax law should be interpreted and applied. We don\u2019t need a piece of legislation that goes through a set of make-work principles that are designed to do little other than lay a groundwork for even greater taxation. I had the dubious privilege of sitting in the debating chamber at about 11.50 last night listening to the Hon Dr Deborah Russell waxing lyrical. In fact, it was almost Shakespearean in its delivery, full of pathos and passion. It\u2019s just a shame that, at 11.50 p.m., she had such a small audience, because I don\u2019t think there would be too many people listening on their crystal sets last night. But, if anyone wants to go and have a look at the theatre of parliamentary debate, there was a good example of it last night. But it was mostly just theatre, and that has become the hallmark of this Government, a Government that is much bigger on theatre than actually principled actions. So we oppose this piece of legislation because we see it simply as a bureaucratic, make-work scheme, of which this Government has become so good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOf course it\u2019s obvious that a tax system should be fair, that it should be simple, and that it should be transparent and administratively easy and adequate to service the country\u2019s revenue needs. But those things are all given. They don\u2019t need a bespoke separate piece of legislation. They are a given; they have always been a given as part of the nation\u2019s taxation regime, and they will continue to be, notwithstanding this piece of legislation. But what is happening here, as my colleague the very insightful and articulate Michael Woodhouse mentioned just a few minutes ago, is that the real thing that the Labour Government wants to try and do is lay the foundation for increasing tax for New Zealanders. They want to introduce a wealth tax. They want to introduce a capital gains tax. They want to tax New Zealanders more. In fact, it\u2019s been the hallmark of this Labour administration over their time in office that they really only have three policies on anything, whether it\u2019s tax or any kind of subject you might like to raise. They have only three policies, and their policies are to ban it, make it compulsory, or tax it. Often\u2014often\u2014they are a combination of all three: banning, making compulsory, or taxing, and then, for good measure, tax again and tax again; just keep raiding the pockets of New Zealanders as if they were tapping into an unlimited ATM.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWhen we go back and have a look at the genesis of this bill, we find that the father of this bill was none other than the Hon David Parker in his capacity as the then revenue Minister. Now, he\u2019s no longer the revenue Minister, and what\u2019s been interesting is that his principled act of resigning as revenue Minister and then his reluctance, for instance, to back or endorse in any way, shape, or form the Labour Party\u2019s election promise to take the GST off fruit and vegetables is very telling. It\u2019s often the way in the Parliament, and indeed in the discourse of political debate, that sometimes it\u2019s what\u2019s not said that speaks louder than what is said. What\u2019s not said speaks louder sometimes than what is said, and David Parker has not been saying much about the dancing on the head of a pin by the finance Minister, Grant Robertson, in terms of his flip-flop on what he previously referred to as a \u201Cboondoggle\u201D. Well, this piece of legislation provides the very foundation for the work that Mr Parker and, I suspect, a small coterie of his colleagues had wanted to achieve, had they been able to convince their caucus and Cabinet colleagues that the introduction of a wealth tax was a good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWell, they got rolled on that\u2014they got rolled on that\u2014when Jacinda Ardern exited stage left and Chris Hipkins fell into the spotlight. He immediately put those plans on to his policy bonfire, and they are no more. He\u2019s gone from what David Parker would, I am sure, have assumed was a principled position, at least in his mind, to one of utter political expediency. We know the reasons for that. The reasons for that relate to an upcoming general election in less than 60 days. So here we are in urgency on a Thursday morning, in the dying stages of this Labour administration, debating an ideological piece of legislation that is little more than bureaucratic make-work\u2014unnecessary; confirms principles that are well known, understood, accepted, and have been part of the taxation framework structure of the New Zealand economy for years and years and years. No one is suggesting that they shouldn\u2019t be there, other than that they don\u2019t need to be in a bespoke and special piece of legislation. So, when we look at the principles\u2014and my colleague Michael Woodhouse, and even the Minister, the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, last night, was waving around in the debating chamber, towards midnight last night, a copy of Adam Smith\u2019s four principles on tax from 1776, in The Wealth of Nations. I was surprised to know that Michael Woodhouse keeps a copy on his Kindle. I\u2019m sure that he reads it regularly! Those principles have been part of taxation policy work for years and years and years, and enshrining them in a piece of legislation like this is little more than bureaucratic make-work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, on this side of the House, we don\u2019t think this bill is necessary. We are very sceptical, very suspicious, and very understanding of what this Government\u2019s aims and objectives are, should they find themselves in a position where they want to tax New Zealanders more. It was Damien O\u2019Connor, the senior Labour Cabinet Minister, only a week or so ago, who said that the problem we have is not enough tax. In a moment of lucid clarity, he actually spilt the beans: they want to take more tax from New Zealanders. Well, on this side of the House, we take the view that Governments should have a much greater respect for taxpayers\u2019 hard-earned dollars, that the wasteful spending should stop, that the country needs to get back on track, and that this piece of legislation doesn\u2019t help that. It doesn\u2019t help that. Help is on the way\u2014help is on the way. A general election is imminent, and we think that, in very short order, New Zealanders will vote in the ballot box, in the secrecy and privacy of the ballot box, and they will make a decision about whether they want to have a Government that is determined to tax them more, determined to spend more money, determined to be more wasteful and have less respect for taxpayers\u2019 money, or whether they will want a Government that is sensible, pragmatic, and sound, and that will lead the country to a far more rational and balanced economic approach that is going to get us out of the recession and the economic dire mess that we are currently in. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002221c38c1032af4892b4be135e045f6dc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221c38c1032af4892b4be135e045f6dc9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. What a wonderful bill this is. What an excellent bill. I mean, successive Governments down through the ages have made changes to the tax system in the name of fairness, without facts. The idea of fairness can be subjected and manipulated to suit political arguments, but here in this House we have a bill which encourages transparency so the public can debate the merit of tax changes with real facts behind them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate the Hon Deborah Russell for bringing this to the House and the Hon David Parker for his work over a long period of time to achieve a bill which actually shines a light on our tax system so that we as New Zealanders can understand how it works. I hear opposite the frustration from the party that would want to defend the interests of the very wealthiest New Zealanders. You heard how often they referenced the wealth report that was done that showed that those earning typically over $20 million\u2014sorry, net assets worth well over $20 million\u2014pay around 8.9 percent as a tax rate, as opposed to middle-income New Zealanders, who pay around 20 percent as a tax rate. People know our system intrinsically is a bit unfair. People have always kind of known that, but we haven\u2019t had the facts, and they don\u2019t like seeing them out in the public. This bill would seek to make sure that we actually have regular reporting on how our tax system is functioning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo I want to, just quickly in my contribution, look at the schedule, at the back of the bill, which goes through the different principles. In the select committee, we had quite a bit of time going through this with tax experts\u2014I think around about a dozen submissions from tax experts\u2014that helped us zone in, together with the help of Sir Rob McLeod, on the principles in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe first focuses on economic income, and it is the principle of horizontal equity. It looks at what the real wealth that people have is\u2014not just the wealth they\u2019re currently taxed on but their real wealth and how equal and fair that is looked at across the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe second looks at efficiency and, in my view, really gives us the opportunity to say: is the system itself efficiently functioning in a way that removes distortion? For example, is our economy focused on investing in productive assets which we\u2019d all want to increase our exports and make us a wealthier country, a more prosperous country, overall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe third is vertical equity, which looks at the progressivity of the system overall. We all know that lower-income people pay a higher portion of their income on taxation, and we all know that, actually, in real terms, wealthier people pay a bit more, typically\u2014although not always\u2014through the tax system. We want to know that the system overall is progressive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ERevenue integrity looks at whether there is coherency in the system and whether loopholes are emerging as changes happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThen we want to look at the compliance and administration costs\u2014is it hard for taxpayers and Government to comply, does it carry a cost for them in doing it, and how do we minimise that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThen we have certainty and predictability so that taxpayers can know what they\u2019re likely to have to pay in tax and they can understand their obligations before their tax is due.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EFlexibility and adaptability looks at the way in which the tax system continues to change to reflect current circumstances. Those are the principles in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI just wanted to spell them out really quickly, to go once over quickly so that people can see there\u2019s nothing to be afraid of in there. What we\u2019re looking at is transparency in our tax system, and it\u2019s just astonishing to me that the National Party are arguing against transparency. It is not clear to me\u2014or maybe it is\u2014what they\u2019re trying to hide by opposing this bill. It is astonishing\u2014astonishing. New Zealanders should have a good hard look at both sides of this debate\u2014I think transparency is really valuable here\u2014and see those who don\u2019t want them to understand regularly what our tax system looks like and those that would really like everyday New Zealanders, middle-income New Zealanders, to understand how the tax system functions and how those who are in the very wealthiest class, for example, as one outcome of this, avoid paying the kinds of tax rates that middle-income New Zealanders do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe need transparency in New Zealand. It\u2019s for the long-term good of the system. I particularly want to congratulate again the Hon David Parker for his excellent work on this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022c59b8627fa5e4a0d9235ea8d03490a73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c59b8627fa5e4a0d9235ea8d03490a73\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of my ACT Party colleague Damien Smith, who, if you haven\u2019t read his speech at the first reading, I really would recommend you go back and read. It is quite hilarious. He makes quite a few jokes that I don\u2019t think I could do service to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure to rise in opposition to the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. We do it for a range of reasons, but I wanted to, firstly, talk about what this bill is hoping to achieve. It is hoping to achieve a statutory framework requiring that the Commissioner of Inland Revenue reports annually about the country\u2019s tax settings against a set of core principles, and these principles are all set out in Schedule 1 of the bill. It says here\u2014quite lovely\u2014it\u2019s \u201Cto improve the public\u2019s understanding of the tax system\u201D, but that\u2019s a bit Orwellian, really, because that\u2019s not really what it\u2019s aiming to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 sets out these principles, and it says that the key principles here are \u201Cconsidered for designing or changing a tax system, as measured by the approved taxation principles measurements\u201D as follows: horizontal equity, efficiency, vertical equity, revenue integrity, compliance and administrative costs, certainty and predictability, and flexibility and adaptability. While the purpose of the bill is to produce a report about the tax system and extent it will then meet these principles, the conclusion is always going to be, in every report, that no system can possibly meet all of these principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThere\u2019ll be people from all sides of this House that will have different opinions. There\u2019ll be people at times who are in Opposition and will think what comes out of these reports is bad because certain parts of these principles have not been met, and there\u2019ll be people in the Government that will think it\u2019s good because other certain aspects have been met, and vice versa when people flip-flop back and forth from Government to Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EIt will be true of every single debate that we ever have about taxation in this country. There will be no new information that this bill will bring to a debate about taxation and whether or not it meets the principles of horizontal equity, efficiency, vertical equity, revenue integrity, compliance and administrative costs, certainty and predictability, and flexibility and adaptability. These are all principles that underpin a lot of taxation and the system, but there\u2019s not actually going to be any new information. It\u2019ll just point out that there are different goals to meet some extent, or all extents, of the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ESo, in effect, what we\u2019ll end up with is simply a new layer of bureaucratic requirements on the Public Service to produce a report, and, when you think about that, that\u2019s just another level of bureaucracy. This Government always wants to pass new laws that add more levels of bureaucracy, more working groups, more reports\u2014more reports that get written and then never read, even by the Government, and never acted upon. But there is actually no need for legislation to create reports like this, because the Minister could simply just request at any time that a report like this is written by the Commissioner of Inland Revenue. There\u2019s no need to set it out in legislation that the Commissioner of Inland Revenue must write this report. I mean, David Parker will know, having been Minister of Revenue, that you could simply just request for a report to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EBut the biggest problem that I have with this is that it didn\u2019t actually go through the generic tax policy process when creating this bill. And when you go on to the IRD website, it says: \u201CHow [is] tax policy \u2026 developed\u201D? Well, since 1995\u2014only a little bit after I was born\u2014it has said that the \u201Ctax policy has been developed using the Generic Tax Policy Process\u201D. So, for our entire lives there has been a standard, and the policy result of following the generic tax policy process means that \u201Cmajor tax initiatives are subject to public scrutiny at all stages of their development. As a result, we have the opportunity to develop more practical options for reform by drawing on information provided by the private sector and the people who will be affected.\u201D The whole process of going through the generic tax policy process \u201Cgives us greater opportunity to explain to interested parties the rationale underlying [the] proposed reforms\u201D, thus improving the long-term stability of the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThis bill didn\u2019t go through the generic tax policy process. It didn\u2019t go through a formalised consultation period. There was only a small number of stakeholders that were informally consulted. Now, that goes against how we\u2019re supposed to do changes to tax law. I don\u2019t think that is right. I also don\u2019t think it\u2019s right that the first reading of this bill went through urgency. Less than three months later, we\u2019re sitting through the second reading under urgency on an issue to do with tax, and it didn\u2019t actually go through proper scrutiny and proper consultation. That can\u2019t be good for the long-term sustainability of our tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe third reason that the ACT Party is opposing this bill is that we do not believe that the Inland Revenue Department is the right department to be reporting on the tax system, because it is responsible for giving policy advice on and administering the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ENumber four: we don\u2019t believe that this report is actually going to be requiring an explanation of the trade-offs and the different weightings of these tax principles. You see that there are quite a few tax principles that have to be met\u2014the horizontal equity, efficiency, vertical equity, etc., certainty and predictability. Now, in designing any tax system, there will be trade-offs, and that will be open for discussion and debate about how we weigh or make those decisions. But this bill just means that the report will say that there are different principles and you can\u2019t satisfy all of them. It\u2019s not necessarily going to go into great detail about why various weightings have been given. The tradeoffs really should be explained and the principles given a weighting so it\u2019s clear why one principle has been met rather than the other. I think it\u2019s important that that is there for transparency for people who are reading these reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EBut, all in all, we don\u2019t believe that this is a necessary piece of legislation. It\u2019s going to add a new level of bureaucracy by requiring a report that\u2019s not needed. If it really was needed, the Minister could just ask for one rather than requiring it under law. It\u2019s not going to go into great enough detail to actually explain the different trade-offs and the weights given behind the different principles underneath it. And, actually, the IRD really shouldn\u2019t be the one issuing this type of report on the tax system, given that they are at the same time administering it. So I am opposed to the bill on behalf of the ACT Party and my colleague Damien Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00225a512152795c4402a0235dfbe2122378\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a512152795c4402a0235dfbe2122378\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Let\u2019s be really clear about what it is that we\u2019re debating today in the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. This is not a piece of legislation that proposes any amendments to how we collect tax in this country or where the burden of taxation should lie. All it does is outline a way in which we can collect and then go about reporting on the way that our tax system currently operates in this country, against a set of seven principles that are outlined explicitly in this bill. I have not heard any arguments from any members of the Opposition\u2014who have stood up and bandied about their red herrings, I would say\u2014against those principles. In fact, we had quite collegial discussions about what those principles are at the Finance and Expenditure Committee. What it is that they are apparently fighting against is the process of collection and publication of the apparent distortions within our taxation system in this country and therefore the flow-on impacts with regard to productivity, inequality, and otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo, just to really dig into this\u2014and I guess I should first foreshadow that of course the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand will be supporting this bill. I just wanted to commend the former Minister, the Hon David Parker, for the mahi that he has done in this space, not just this year in bringing this bill to this House but also in the production of the high - net-wealth individuals report as published at the beginning of this year, which, of course, as many other members have alluded to\u2014and, again, it\u2019s worthwhile putting on the record\u2014made it patently clear that our tax system is fundamentally unfair and that there is a disproportionate tax burden borne by those who work in this country, not those who make their money off of the further and further accumulation of wealth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo the Opposition are fighting against the collection of this data, and the Hon Michael Woodhouse said\u2014and I quote\u2014that \u201Cthis is setting the information framework [for] \u2026 a wealth tax.\u201D Well, I think you may be saying the quiet part out loud there, because if in fact the publication of this data and this evidence and this information provides the information framework and, therefore, a rationale for the implementation of a wealth tax, well, that\u2019s a political decision and one that I guess would be mandated by the general public demanding something like this happen because they for the first time have the evidence which very clearly points out the discrepancies and the unfairness in our tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EFurther to that point, we heard from the Hon Scott Simpson that this is ideologically driven. Of course, this is one of those arguments that I\u2019ve got to stand up and argue against every single time, because, guys, I\u2019m sorry to tell you, all of us here are ideologically driven. We have these things called ideologies or values, which underpin our political parties and colour how we interpret and conceptualise of evidence\u2014the things that we\u2019re willing to look at, the things that we\u2019re not willing to look at; the communities that we\u2019re willing to listen to, and the communities that we are not willing to listen to. We are all ideological, and I would say, actually, the antithesis of ideology is being open to collecting the evidence and the data and looking at it as objectively as is possible\u2014i.e., the very point behind this legislation: to put out objective facts which all of us can interpret subjectively through our ideological values, political parties, and partisan lenses. So what is it, in fact, that is ideologically driven? Well, I\u2019d say it\u2019s the argument ideologically to not collect objective data to prove a point, which we could all then go about debating from our different ideological positions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI also heard from the Hon Scott Simpson, and again I quote\u2014I wrote all these down\u2014that he\u2019s \u201Cvery suspicious\u201D of what we might do with this data. Again, that will be a matter of public debate, because all this bill does is set up a framework for collecting evidence and then reporting that publicly. There is absolutely no impetus\u2014nothing in here\u2014that says that you must do X, Y, and Z with it. In fact, that\u2019s the point of an election campaign. That\u2019s the point of fiscal policy. It\u2019s the point of everything that we do in this place\u2014to interpret data. But the point of this bill is that we don\u2019t have the damn data to do that meaningfully or objectively\u2014or subjectively\u2014in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe other point made by the Hon Scott Simpson is that this shows a disdain or a lack of respect for taxpayer dollars. In fact, I\u2019d say quite the opposite, because, again, as outlined in the research from the Hon David Parker in his former role as Minister of Revenue, commissioned by the IRD, it made it explicitly and abundantly clear that the average taxpayer in this country pays more than double the effective tax rate of the wealthiest in this country. There is a disproportionate burden on those who earn their income from work as opposed to those who earn their income from wealth. I\u2019d say the greatest disrespect that you could pay to the average New Zealand taxpayer is to tell them that you\u2019re not interested in lifting the lid on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIn fact, I\u2019d say that the most responsible thing that we could do as ostensible leaders of this country is to try and get all the more evidence and data to have an all the more informed public debate on this stuff, because, otherwise, all we\u2019re doing in this place is vibes, and that\u2019s not good enough. It\u2019s how we\u2019ve gone about facilitating and creating tax and economic policy in this country for far, far too long. There\u2019s a reason that people have an intuition out there that this stuff is unfair, because as the data is beginning to bear out from the IRD and Treasury research as reported at the beginning of this year, it is unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI also need to respond to the point, raised by Brooke van Velden from the ACT Party, that we can\u2019t meet all seven principles. Well, that, again, is part of the point. We are reporting against those seven principles\u2014again, I\u2019ve not yet heard any member of the Opposition argue against any of those seven principles, just simply the collection of and reporting of this data. So I\u2019d really, really ask them to respond to which of those seven principles they\u2019re against. But if you can\u2019t meet those seven principles, then let\u2019s be explicit as lawmakers about which ones we\u2019re willing to prioritise and the weighting that we\u2019re wanting to put on each of them, because that is the political decision. All this does is set up a reporting framework against principles which, again, it appears there\u2019s relative consensus in this House on. The debate is whether we actually report on this stuff in the first place and, therefore, whether we have an objectively informed, evidence-based debate. Brooke van Velden was here saying that there\u2019s not going to be any explanation of the trade-offs within the IRD research. That\u2019s not their role. Their role is to provide us with the evidence, and then it is our ideologically driven positions as politicians which will then decide to interpret and make decisions on how we make those trade-offs on those variables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ETo that effect, it\u2019s already been made abundantly clear, in the likes of that high-wealth individuals report from the beginning of this year, that we\u2019re already making quite substantive trade-offs with regard to productivity in this country, because what we see is that as a result of our tax system being 136th in the world, based on Oxfam\u2019s reporting, for addressing inequality, we know that there are massive challenges right now with how capital flows continue to go into land speculation at the expense of productivity, small businesses, innovation, and research and development. We also know that there are distortions which continue to suppress talent and skills and people\u2019s genuine want to participate in our society in lower-income neighbourhoods and communities across this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI just for the life of me can\u2019t understand how we\u2019re here having a debate today about whether we just want this data out there in the first place. This bill does not do anything in terms of actual changes to our tax system, which, I\u2019d say, I wish that we were actually debating about, because we do have quite substantial evidence that was released at the beginning of this year. But what we\u2019re debating about is whether we just have baseline access to what I would say is fundamental information that is useful for having an informed public debate. I thought that was the point of this place. So I really, really would appeal to members of, particularly, the National Party to stand up and to point to which of the seven principles they oppose being reported against, because, otherwise, all I\u2019m hearing from them is ideological drivel and that they do not want objective evidence and information out there which we can pick over and debate explicitly from each of our ideological and values-based standpoints.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EJust finally, because I\u2019ve got another minute and a half, the tax system is unfair, and the Greens have outlined our policy going to this election in 2023. The National Party, of course, are waving around the bogeyman that perhaps the Labour Party might be foreshadowing a wealth tax, but I\u2019d say to those who are listening along at home that so far, it\u2019s only really the Green Party that I\u2019m aware of who have meaningfully outlined how we would implement something like that to pay for a guaranteed minimum income and to make the political choice to end poverty in this country, because, after all, that\u2019s the point of this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022db50299103a24aee96cc8c6e124d398e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db50299103a24aee96cc8c6e124d398e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me pleasure to rise in the second reading debate. Can I thank the Hon Deborah Russell for carrying forward this legislation, and the select committee for the work that was done by select committee members\u2014who did work collegially on this bill; even though some members disagreed with it, they drilled down into the principles to articulate them as well as can be\u2014the IRD officials, and Sir Rob McLeod for his very wise advice to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. This is actually a very important bill, and you can see its importance from the strength of feeling it engenders from the Opposition, who don\u2019t want transparency as to the outcomes of our current tax system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EDo you know that when the high-wealth individual work was done earlier this year, after that work was done, the Treasury re-estimated the distribution of wealth in New Zealand. Prior to that work being done, they had estimated that the top 1 percent of wealth-holders in New Zealand held 21\u00A0percent of all assets in New Zealand, including family homes\u201421 percent. It\u2019s quite an extreme amount of wealth to be held by the 1\u00A0percent. After the study was done, they re-estimated it to 26\u00A0percent of all assets held by the 1 percent. If you think about that, well, that\u2019s pretty extreme, but then if you think about investments outside of the family home, they re-estimated that of all of the investments in New Zealand outside of the family home, 35 percent of them are held by 1 percent of the population\u201435 percent of all investments, all net wealth outside of the family home, is held by 1\u00A0percent. That\u2019s what data-driven analysis of the tax system shows to New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe heard reference from the ACT Party that this didn\u2019t go through the generic tax policy process and, therefore, is flawed. The generic tax policy process wasn\u2019t used to increase GST or change income tax rates. That\u2019s about technical stuff like what you are going to do for foreign investment rules and double taxation and really technical things like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWho\u2019s on the generic tax policy groups? Major corporates and their tax accountants, essentially, and the occasional lawyer, but it\u2019s mainly\u2014I go to those meetings with those groups that are in that, and that\u2019s who they are. Those people have themselves told me that they can\u2019t involve themselves in the bigger tax debate. I had one of the partners of one of the major accounting firms, a real leader in taxation, tell me that when he publicly expressed an opinion in favour of a capital gains tax, they lost clients to the firm because the people who would have been charged a capital gains tax said, \u201CI\u2019m not going to use you as my accountant\u201D\u2014this is one of the big six firms\u2014\u201Cif you talk publicly about that.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s impossible for those people to, by and large, talk publicly about what they really think about the big issues in the tax system. That\u2019s the job of this place, and this place needs information upon which to have those debates, and that\u2019s all this bill does. It sets out principles, which are settled principles, against which that information can be provided through us to the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s one of the other trite phrases we hear in New Zealand? I hear it from the National Party: \u201Cbroad based - low rate\u201D\u2014\u201Cbroad based - low rate\u201D. New Zealand doesn\u2019t have a broad base - low rate tax system. We have a broad-based GST system, and its rate is lower than if it was a narrow base, but GST is a very high proportion of taxation in New Zealand, relative to other OECD countries. We do not have a broad base - low rate tax system, as shown by the high-wealth work earlier in the year, which showed that the people who had an average wealth of $256 million pay tax at less than the rate of 10\u00A0percent, which is less than middle-income earners in New Zealand by a factor of a half to a third. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo what are the principles set out here? \u201CHorizontal equity is the extent to which people with similar levels of \u2026 income pay similar amounts of tax.\u201D\u2014the next part of that is important\u2014\u201CIn considering horizontal equity, the time value of money matters and the tax system should generally recognise the economic effect of income.\u201D What happens now? Why do the National Party hate that? Why don\u2019t they want that in our system? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhen you borrow money from the bank and you take out a $300,000 mortgage, wouldn\u2019t you love for the bank to say, \u201COh, by the way, we\u2019re not going to charge you any interest or get the money back for 30 years. You can have the money free for 30 years.\u201D? Well, that\u2019s what happens in New Zealand for some people. Their tax on any income can be delayed for decades, so their effective tax rate is much, much lower compared with a wage or salary earner, who pays tax every week or every fortnight when they\u2019re paid. Some other people, if they ever pay tax, can delay it for decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons that the National Party hates this\u2014and they didn\u2019t like the fact that Rob McLeod agreed that the tax system should look at economic income, not necessarily realised income\u2014is that they know that the people that they back have forms of income that are never taxed, or, if it is taxed, taxation is delayed for decades. That\u2019s who backs the National Party. That\u2019s who backs the ACT Party, and the ACT Party have become so divorced from their original position as the Association of Consumers and Taxpayers that Sir Roger Douglas recently came out and said that they are now the party for the wealthy and that they\u2019re not actually backing fairly all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo horizontal equity is important. \u201CIn considering horizontal equity, there are important areas where exemptions \u2026 are justified\u201D, like the family home. We\u2019ve put that in there, because otherwise the right wing tries to tell everyone that we\u2019re going to tax the family home. We\u2019d never propose that. That\u2019s now clear in these tax principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t go through efficiency. Vertical equity is really important. You know, if Jeff Bezos lived in New Zealand\u2014the richest man in the world\u2014he would pay virtually no tax. How is that fair? That\u2019s an example of how vertical equity is important, and it could be done better in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECompliance and administrative costs\u2014really important. No one wants to waste a lot of money on unnecessarily obtuse tax rules forcing people to fill out extra forms, but you do need to not allow that as an excuse for gross unfairness. That\u2019s why this says, \u201CCompliance and administrative costs is the extent to which compliance and administrative costs for taxpayers and the Government are reasonable, but minimising costs is not justification for substantial unfairness in the tax system.\u201D, and why do the National Party hate that principle? It\u2019s because they always use that excuse\u2014always use that excuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis is good legislation. This is really important for the future efficiency of the New Zealand economy. Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s contribution\u2014the misallocation of capital caused by inappropriate tax rules driving speculative asset classes, highly leveraged, offered to minimise taxation at the cost of productive investment is one of the reasons why Australia is more productive than New Zealand, because their tax system is better than ours. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002271115ec81841431e9fee7f55836d6a73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271115ec81841431e9fee7f55836d6a73\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you, everyone, for the applause. That\u2019s a great way to start my speech off, with such appreciation\u2014I haven\u2019t even said anything yet, but I do welcome that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure to actually speak on the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. Isn\u2019t it a pity\u2014isn\u2019t it a pity\u2014that David Parker doesn\u2019t have that same passion about allocating our taxpayers\u2019 money in a most efficient way, minimising waste in the public sector. If he had done that, then we would not have the current account balance that we do today. He\u2019s caused a whole lot of issues\u2014or his Government has\u2014by not actually carefully spending other people\u2019s money, and that\u2019s what you do when you gather tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI was going to raise it later on in my speech, but I\u2019ll do it now seeing the Minister mentioned Sir Roger Douglas. I think he seeks to make a mark in the Labour Party, in the history books, up to that sort of level, but unfortunately he will never get to the level of Sir Roger Douglas\u2014the best Minister of Finance I would argue, ever. He was a Labour Minister, and I think it would be good if more of the Labour Ministers aspired to reach the level of effectiveness of that Minister, because he made a massive mark on New Zealand\u2019s history and set New Zealand down a path of success for many years after he retired from Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENo debate on taxation, I think, would be complete without a quote from Jean-Baptiste Colbert. Now, Jean-Baptiste Colbert was Louis XIV\u2019s most trusted adviser. He was accredited with developing trade, and with developing industry and, of course, the Merchant Navy, which made all of those things possible. His quote on taxation was: \u201CThe art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing.\u201D I would argue that this bill lays the groundwork to test the upper limits of the hissing and the tolerance of the goose\u2014that being the taxpayer. This is definitely laying the groundwork for a wealth tax. I don\u2019t think anyone disagrees on that\u2014they might say otherwise, but I know deep down that is exactly what it\u2019s all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWhy wouldn\u2019t we want a wealth tax? Well, I\u2019m going to tell you that. The countries that have tried it are backing off from it. In the OECD, there\u2019s only three countries that have wealth taxes now. That\u2019s Norway, Spain, and Switzerland. Norway, now they\u2019ve brought in their wealth tax, have had to actually bring in, or are considering bringing in, an exit tax, because the wealthy are leaving. The problem, they forget, with wealth is the wealthy people don\u2019t own all the houses in New Zealand and so they they\u2019re not rooted in this area. They can take their money with them and go elsewhere. Their money is used to create wealth. It creates wealth for all of us. So I think that\u2019s something that\u2019s been forgotten in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI think the GST nonsense that David Parker was going on about\u2014we did have a good GST system, but they\u2019re going to ruin it\u2014that\u2019s if they win, of course, on 14 October\u2014by taking fresh fruit and frozen fruit and vegetables out of the out of the GST system. That makes it more complicated, more expensive to run, and it actually breaches one of\u2014I know David Parker, who spoke earlier, is a great fan of Adam Smith\u2019s The Wealth of Nations, but it breaches several of his maxims for tax: equity and fairness. It certainly doesn\u2019t meet that, these proposals for his wealth tax. If we\u2019re going to have a tax on capital gains and if it was to meet the first equity and fairness test, it would also be able to count the losses as well as the gains. It would count everyone\u2019s gains and losses, not just a select few, which a wealth tax seeks to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI can\u2019t go through all four of them, but what I can say is that this is definitely setting the groundwork for a wealth tax. We oppose it, and it\u2019s actually quite a waste of Parliament\u2019s time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002289fb9a9761614f70aa447a326a4cd921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289fb9a9761614f70aa447a326a4cd921\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it\u2019s very easy to stand up and speak after the previous National Party speaker, Stuart Smith, but it\u2019s actually very hard to speak after the Hon David Parker giving his synopsis and reflection on this. He makes it very, very clear what this piece of legislation is about, and that is around establishing that framework that will require officials to provide data on, and assess the performance of, our tax system\u2014clear, simple legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Hon David Parker and specifically the Hon Dr Deborah Russell for bringing this piece of legislation to the House. This is part of our Government\u2019s revenue strategy. It\u2019s focusing on a fairer tax system, and because of that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002237e69d5a58ee470cb4959ae73e17b7f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237e69d5a58ee470cb4959ae73e17b7f8\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s an absolute pleasure to take a call on this bill, because this is one of the things I am truly most proud of in terms of what the Labour Government is achieving for this country. I am going to take my copy of this bill, and I\u2019m going to get David Parker to sign it, and I\u2019m going to auction it off, because it speaks to our voters and our backbone. This is the situation: before the high-wealth report, New Zealanders didn\u2019t know that the high-wealth individuals who have $20\u00A0to\u00A0$30 million worth of income\u2014that\u2019s what the target was\u2014are paying 8.9 percent tax on average. Middle-income New Zealanders are paying 20.2 percent tax, and that is so unfair. That is so unfair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe have a problem in this country with a gap between rich and poor, and it shows itself. It shows itself in things like poverty. It shows itself in crime. It shows itself in all sorts of ways that are costly to this country, and we must, must understand what we are doing. What we had was we had a tax department that did not understand that 35 percent of assets were held by 1 percent. We must understand those things; they must inform us, and they must inform our public. In a time like now, we need to know those things and make decisions based on real information. I am shamed by the ACT Party, which is supposed to be all about transparency. I am ashamed that they are actually fighting transparency. They are fighting people knowing what is going on in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe have to know what\u2019s going on in order to make policy, and nobody should be afraid of us examining the tax policy in terms that have been thought about for generations: fairness, certainty, convenience, efficiency, thinking about wellbeing, and thinking about economic income. That\u2019s an empowering thing, and I urge the New Zealand voter to think about this, because this debate is the stark contrast between parties. If you vote in a right-wing Government, you will lose transparency, and more money will go to the 1 percent. That is the reality, and there we are. That is why I am commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00227f0436c9afa74d25b02aa1327f52cf55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f0436c9afa74d25b02aa1327f52cf55\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. What an interesting discussion on this Thursday morning that\u2019s also somehow a Tuesday still because we\u2019re in urgency. While the parliamentary calendar is delayed by a couple of days, I can assure New Zealand that we are in fact still a couple of days closer to the election and the change of Government that so many people want in order to get their country back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s been an interesting discussion from the three Smith brothers. We\u2019ve had Stuart Smith and, before that, the reference to ACT\u2019s Damien Smith and, of course, Adam Smith, their older brother\u2014their contemporary\u2014but also other interesting discussions around the House. I do want to refer to a couple of those, because I think it\u2019s quite illuminating the way that different parties have approached this. I enjoyed, for example, in David Parker\u2019s valedictory statement, the reason that he set out why in his time in Parliament he\u2019s been fighting the Labour Party on these things. I didn\u2019t find all his remarks particularly persuasive, but I do like that he gave a really good go at persuading the Prime Minister and the finance Minister of the wisdom of his tax principles. At least he has shown that to him the Groucho Marx quote does not apply, that if you don\u2019t like these principles, then I have others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnyway, it\u2019s been an interesting discussion, and I think actually at the heart of it is a question that was asked by my colleague and friend the Hon Michael Woodhouse, leading the debate from the National Party side of things, which was to ask why we need a framework scheme divorced from actual tax policy or law that would actually have a real-world meaningful effect. Because, actually, what we have here, Madam Speaker, as you\u2019ll be aware, having heard the debate, is not a particular proposal in terms of rates or bans or even types of taxation that should be levied\u2014which is not, you know, technically accurate\u2014or, you know, imposed if you like. I was trying to find some more neutral way of putting that. Anyway, the taxpayers of this country have particular proposals that are made by political parties ahead of an election. Of course, the Government of the day can introduce policy by way of a Budget, or at other times too, for that matter. But we don\u2019t have that. All we\u2019ve got is a set of principles and permission to display and gather data about wealth and income, and we can talk about the specifics of that, but I don\u2019t understand why legislation should be needed merely to put in place an ideological world view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, everyone\u2019s entitled to their ideology. I agree with our colleague and friend Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, who notes that, at some level, we do all have an ideology, so we shouldn\u2019t shy away from that. But the point that was being made on this side of the House\u2014I think by my colleague and friend the Hon Scott Simpson\u2014was that if an ideological basis for a law comes through that isn\u2019t founded in any kind of reality, in any real-world outcome that would be positive and productive, then, actually, that\u2019s a very dangerous thing, and we should resist that, and we should call that out when we see it. We see it here precisely because a law is being passed in this House by the current Government that has no foundation in reality, in terms of any real-world outcome, positive or negative, except, of course, in the gathering of the data and the presentation of these so-called principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIf this isn\u2019t necessary in itself to authorise the fishing expedition or the witch hunt that we\u2019ve already seen, then what is the value of having it in law? I mean, potentially one has a sort of framework legislation like the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (BORA), because that\u2019s the yardstick against which you can measure other legislation. In the case of NZ BORA, it would be the case that if someone doesn\u2019t like the way another law is operating, then they can actually go to the court and say that that law should be declared inconsistent with NZ BORA. Obviously, we can have a debate and discussion about that, and the former revenue Minister, before he found his position untenable, understands that well in his position as Attorney-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI presume that no one\u2019s going to go running off to the court and say that the tax law that\u2019s passed by a duly elected Government isn\u2019t consistent with the Tax Principles Reporting Act and, therefore, should be struck down or declared inconsistent. But this is the door that we open when we have framework legislation that sets up principles against which other legislation can be measured and does not in itself provide anything useful or concrete or tangible to affect the taxpayers and, indeed, the other citizens and residents of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, as the Minister who led the contribution for the Labour Government side of things, about Adam Smith, the father of economics, back in 1776. I find it interesting and amusing\u2014actually, I found the discussion genuinely quite interesting, despite the fact that it was very nearly midnight last night and I was wanting to do a Cinderella routine and leave the House as quickly as I could before the clock struck 12, with or without my glass slippers. But, you know, we go all the way back to those centuries of economic thought. Indeed, he was credited with starting the idea of economic thought and how markets work and so forth in his seminal work The Wealth of Nations. Yet, relatively recent application of principles by no less than the Minister herself and the Hon David Parker and the finance Minister have been discarded as being all the way back in the distant past of 10 years ago, and we heard that exchange in question time yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo if we\u2019re talking about tax principles and the tax principles Act, as it will be soon enough, I think we do need to understand as a House and as a country that the principles appear to be very malleable on that side of the House, and they seem to be a way of justifying the things that one side of politics wants to do and could do anyway if it were minded. It has a single party majority. It can pass tax law whether we like it or not, and then the people can speak. I think Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick came so close to understanding and getting it right, actually, when she said that we\u2019ve got to be wary of discussion that\u2019s only based on the vibes and, actually, we should be talking with people about what tax policy should be. That\u2019s, of course, the main criticism of this bill, as far as I\u2019m concerned. It is just about the vibes. It\u2019s not actually doing anything real. It\u2019s not doing anything concrete\u2014again, good, bad, or indifferent. It\u2019s just not actually achieving anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, yes, let\u2019s have a discussion about it. Let\u2019s discuss it in the next 60 days with the people who matter, which is the taxpayers and other residents and citizens in New Zealand. We look forward to doing so, and we\u2019ll do so in a way that will produce real positive outcomes for all New Zealanders and not be an ideological witch hunt enabling tax principles bills such as this. We do not commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aca764a64b024c499e2510e327e38bce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aca764a64b024c499e2510e327e38bce\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure to take a call on the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. As has been discussed in the House today, it establishes a statutory framework requiring the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to report annually about this country\u2019s tax settings against a set of core principles which have been widely traversed this morning. The purpose of this bill is to improve the public\u2019s understanding of the tax system and to encourage informed debate about tax going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis bill came to the committee\u2014it was actually my first day on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and it was a bit of a schoolhouse for me to hear a lot of clever people discuss this bill and then also to learn about the principles that underpin this bill. Adam Smith has come up on a number of occasions, and so initially I thought, who was this Adam Smith dude? What I like about the Finance and Expenditure Committee is you get to do a lot of deep thinking, and so I got to read about a couple of his books and learn a bit more about the tax system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EInterestingly, Sir Michael Cullen, when he first became the finance Minister, was unsatisfied with the information that he was getting from Treasury at the time, so he wrote to Treasury and told them not just to read Adam Smith\u2019s The Wealth of Nations but also to read up on The Theory of Moral Sentiments, because it was the social aspect that he really wanted our officials to drill into. That was really good reading about that, and it\u2019s great that that theory of moral sentiments and that social aspect have found their way into this bill. It\u2019s a good bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9b9cbb042464e48b550b2da91641001\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9b9cbb042464e48b550b2da91641001\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220054772767604862802b8615da90f924\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 30; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000111\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000112\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fdc4bcc1884d4e1bbb92429cda4530f9\u0022\u003EFuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6504521c5934ae695a52a0f70758813\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00229a73c425f5054f2da4a9f902979990ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a73c425f5054f2da4a9f902979990ac\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Acting Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d3ba36c81974b02a94323940e87ab3f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d39eb7535c8e48a4b6fcf1620af215d2\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee for the work that they\u2019ve done on this particular bill. While I note that, sadly, they were unable to come to a full agreement on that particular committee, they still, however, made some rather good suggestions to ensure that this bill is a strong bill moving forward. Therefore, I think it\u2019s important that we cover off what some of those suggestions were and how those suggestions will continue to make sure that this bill is a good bill into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EJust by way of background, though, the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill is designed to help ensure that we have sufficient petrol, diesel, and jet fuel in New Zealand to weather major disruptions to our fuel supply. Many of us in the House, here, will recall when there was significant disruption to our jet fuel supply. And, in particular, myself and other MPs based in Auckland were subject to a number of those rather huge disruptions. In order for our country to be productive, it needs strong infrastructure and it needs the ability for people, in particular of the great city of T\u0101maki-makau-rau, of Auckland, to be able to get around the country. The disruptions were significant and, sadly, very costly. That\u2019s why it was important that this Government take action on how we might be able to create resilience in the supply of fuel\u2014petrol, diesel, and jet fuel in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we noticed too, of course, was that with the more frequent severe weather events that we\u2019ve been experiencing here in New Zealand, it\u2019s become even more apparent why we must create resilience. While I already gave the example of T\u0101maki-makau-rau, I can already tell the House that in my visit to the Hawke\u2019s Bay region and the Tair\u0101whiti region after Cyclone Gabrielle, one of the biggest challenges was getting supply of fuel in there in order to operate the heavy machinery to clear roads, to clear pathways, to clear houses; it was clear to all of us that we needed to do more here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ETherefore, the Government made an announcement that looks towards how we might create more bulk-storage facilities to ensure that we have national levels set in order for us to have confidence in our resilience, that we can have a stockholding level that we can all agree upon at a minimum to make sure that our country isn\u2019t severely impacted by these. To meet the obligations, though, fuel importers will not necessarily have to make significant investments in fuel storage facilities; however, some of them may need to change their stock management practice to reduce fluctuations in their stock levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESome of the changes that the select committee recommended, we consider to be very good changes, on behalf of the Minister. So I\u2019m going to cover off a couple of those. The bill, obviously, was referred to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on 6 June 2023. There were a number of submissions; 11 in total, and eight of those were heard in oral presentation. So a big thankyou to those who did make a submission to the select committee. One of the ones that we feel, I think, is important to amend in the bill as it progresses is the commencement date. The bill, as introduced, provided for the bill to come into force by Order in Council no later than two years after the date on which it receives Royal assent. That means, if the bill was passed as introduced and the regulations were made by early 2024, the minimum stockholding obligation could come into force in early 2024. Some submitters were concerned that this date was too short, and that they needed a bit more time to look towards the infrastructure and what they\u2019ll need to do to become compliant with this particular legislation. So, therefore, the select committee recommended that the commencement date be amended to give certainty, to oblige parties by bringing the information disclosure provisions in the bill into force on 1 July 2024, and the remaining stockholding obligation provisions on 1\u00A0January 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt also became clear during the select committee that the bill, as introduced, caused some confusion as to how the calculation method of the obligation works. Some submitters did not understand that the minimum level of cover for the initial period is intended to be met on an average basis and that this is an average of daily stock level estimates for a month. The committee recommended amending the definition of a \u201Cvariable a\u201D in the formula, which is the obliged person\u2019s stockholding obligation, to clarify that the required minimum stockholding volume must be met on an average basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn the bill, as introduced, \u201Caverage daily demand\u201D, which determines the obliged person\u2019s stockholding obligation, is the average over the 12 months immediately before the compliance period. Some submitters noted that fuel imports are typically ordered three or four months ahead of delivery, which means that an obliged person would have to order fuel up to four months before knowing with certainty what its stockholding obligations were in the compliance period afforded by the bill. So the committee recommended that the obliged person\u2019s average daily demand be based on the obliged person\u2019s average daily offtake from bulk storage facilities over the 12-month period, four months before the compliance period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOne of the other recommendations from the committee was one that this Government agrees with. As the bill was introduced, the penalty was for half a million dollars\u2014$500,000\u2014for each act or omission. In response to some of the concerns from the submitters, the committee has recommended that the maximum pecuniary penalty be set at $100,000. On behalf of the Minister, the Minister is satisfied that this lower penalty will continue to be a significant deterrent, in order to bring people into compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe select committee also recommended several amendments to clarify processes that could apply when an obliged person is temporarily unable to meet the stockholding obligation. Exemptions to the minimum stockholding obligations may be granted by the Minister, with some conditions, in exceptional circumstances, of course. This would provide the Government with more tools than just prosecution through the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ETo provide more clarity and flexibility about how these provisions on exemptions and enforceable undertakings are used, the select committee recommended a number of changes. I\u2019ll just list them very briefly: providing for the Minister to grant an exemption if a series of events or circumstances prevent an obliged person from complying with their obligations, allowing regulations to prescribed circumstances that will be grounds for an exemption, clarifying that other instances of non-compliance or potential non-compliance may be addressed by enforceable undertakings, and clarifying that obliged persons can seek agreement from the chief executive for a path to compliance in circumstances where they are unlikely to meet the obligation by the commencement date. All, I think, pretty pragmatic and sensible recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo, through the select committee process, we now have a more robust bill. The bill has been carefully designed to increase our fuel resilience in a way that will limit potential price impacts on our consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ERecent jet fuel disruptions, as I discussed earlier, were really significant, and, as our country reopens to the world after the pandemic of COVID-19, it\u2019s important that there is the resilience in our infrastructure to make sure that the visitor numbers that come to New Zealand can get out and about across our beautiful country. It\u2019s a lifetime dream of them coming here, and I can tell you, Madam Speaker, that the raw data from the Auckland Airport, through the FIFA Women\u2019s Football World Cup, has already proven that we must make sure that the resilience is there to cater for the thousands and thousands of visitors that came during that particular amazing event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis bill will mitigate the extent to which New Zealand is exposed to fuel-disruption scenarios. On behalf of the Minister and this Government, I\u2019m pleased to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8e9e54370f548a29ac1f440e92fa33f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8e9e54370f548a29ac1f440e92fa33f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd9c1458e02c4ed69069786d54bc7cfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd9c1458e02c4ed69069786d54bc7cfc\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Oh thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe National Party is supporting this bill, although we do have reservations about the speed with which this bill has gone through the process\u2014although we were ably chaired by Naisi Chen at the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee; her attention to the time that is allowed for speakers and for submitters is legendary, actually. She\u2019s quite a stickler for time, but that is great. We needed to have that on this bill in particular, because we didn\u2019t have the time that we needed to consider it fully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EActually, the closure of Marsden Point has brought all this about and that happened quite a long time ago. That this bill was only introduced in June is actually quite unforgivable. This is a really important issue. As the Hon Peeni Henare mentioned before, the disruptions with the jet fuel are quite significant. For example, airlines were required to tanker. What that actually means is that instead of having enough fuel in, with the normal safety reserves, they had to often fill the tanks right to full to take a journey, so they had enough fuel for a safe return journey as well\u2014with more passengers on. So it actually cost them a lot of money. It also meant that some international flights had to fly with low fuel loads to Australia or Fiji and then refuel and continue on\u2014extra landing fees; all those sorts of things\u2014when, actually, airlines run on very small margins. They\u2019ve got a huge capital expenditure upfront for the aircraft, all those operating costs\u2014it really made a big difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo fuel security is a big deal for us, and that came about because a shipment of fuel that arrived at Marsden Point was not up to the fuel specifications. It is quite comforting to know that the fuel specifications are so rigidly applied for the aviation sector. Obviously, you can\u2019t pull over to the side of the road when you\u2019re halfway across the Pacific, so it\u2019s absolutely essential we get that right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThere are also issues that occur with other fuel, particularly with diesel, where we have one specification and we have winter diesel and summer diesel\u2014which people don\u2019t really appreciate. So the chemical composition of those fuels does change, and other countries have different specifications to us. But diesel was much easier to blend to deal with those issues, should a shipment arrive not to the specifications that it was ordered under.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo these current rules\u2014the required minimum stockholding obligations are calculated on previous years, as the Minister alluded to. But it\u2019s 28 days for petrol on average, 24 days for jet fuel, and 21 days for diesel. It was raised in select committee that diesel being lower than petrol is the wrong way around, because, actually, when the Christchurch earthquake occurred, it was diesel that was in short supply, not petrol. When civil emergencies occur, that will be the way it works, because all the emergency services utilise diesel, not petrol, for their fire service, for ambulances, and so on. So that, we believe, is wrong, and the wrong way around. So there was quite a bit of discussion about that sort of thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s only June, we\u2019re here now. Is that a good process? Well, not quite. Could have been a lot better. But, actually, the current, or the latest, fuel storage data that I have that\u2019s on hand is 43 days for premium petrol, 40 days for regular petrol. There\u2019s 47 days, at a current rate of consumption, with jet fuel on hand, and 21 days for diesel. Again, diesel is the one, as I just alluded to, that should be higher than any of the others, but it\u2019s not, unfortunately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe Minister went through some of the issues that were raised and the changes that we made, and I think it\u2019s quite important that we go through that. There were 11 submitters and eight that appeared before the committee. They all brought helpful and useful suggestions\u2014and this is the whole point of the select committee process, of course. But I think it\u2019s often lost how collaboratively we work, often, in select committees\u2014particularly when you\u2019ve got good submissions, as we had, from the sector that affected all the nuts and bolts of that and how the legislation might work. We were able to make some changes that will make quite a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo the commencement date has already been mentioned, and while it might seem that we\u2019ve got enough fuel overall\u2014those numbers that I mentioned before\u2014that\u2019s a gross number; it\u2019s not on the individual companies, and, of course, it will be individual companies that are required to keep that level of storage. So that is an issue for them to consider. But we\u2019re pushing the commencement date out. We\u2019ll give those companies enough time to get to the point where they can meet that minimum stockholding. It\u2019ll be tight\u2014that\u2019s what they\u2019ve told us\u2014so we hope that that\u2019s enough time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThere was also the point about the average of over a month, that assessing those stockholding levels at any moment in time, of course, could be below those levels and it would have been nonsensical to not take an average, so that\u2019s been put in the legislation. Of course, the original level\u2014if it was just taken as the legislation was written\u2014would be quite unfair given the long lead times that these fuel orders come in on. Obviously they don\u2019t just call up for a shipment to be delivered next week. There are quite long timelines; they come from Singapore mostly. So it\u2019s at least a week\u2014it might be two weeks actually\u2014sailing from Singapore to get here. So those sort of lead times have to be taken into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThere are, I think, the minimum penalties\u2014there was a penalty in the proposed section\u00A065, which was potentially $500,000 for individuals. We thought that was unfair for individuals, so that\u2019s been lowered to $100,000. You know, these people are not going to go out and deliberately breach these rules, but if they do breach the rules, we didn\u2019t think $500,000 was a fair level so we\u2019ve brought that back to 100,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWe also\u2014how individual companies could move their fuel around in terms of their obligations; we discussed that at great length. There was quite a long discussion about the exclusive economic zone (EEZ) because shipments inside the EEZ are counted as stockholdings here in New Zealand and shipments are moving around. That\u2019s one advantage, in fact, with Marsden Point closing: we no longer have a single point of failure in theory\u2014we do for jet fuel, probably, because of the issue with the pipeline and all of our fuel going down to the airport that way. But now, the shipments are coming down through different ports; the ships are dropping off at different locations. So we\u2019re getting more frequent shipments of fuel than we had before, albeit I don\u2019t believe Marsden Point should have closed. I\u2019m not for a moment supporting that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut I think this bill is in good a shape as we could get it in the time that was allowed. I\u2019d like to thank all of the submitters who helped this process go as smoothly as possible, and my fellow select committee members who\u2014we had a very collegial go at this bill and I think we\u2019ve knocked it into as good a shape as possible. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u00227b2fda3f0edf4bdf8c005ab6f25c2988\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b2fda3f0edf4bdf8c005ab6f25c2988\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just never thought that I would start a Government bill speech saying I congratulate the Opposition for seeing the light\u2014their own journey on the road to Damascus and coming back and supporting this bill. It\u2019s an absolute joy to have heard that today; just a pity we couldn\u2019t have passed the select committee report in unanimous agreement, but I\u2019m still extremely pleased. And I just want to start on that note and thank my select committee, the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and especially my deputy chairperson, Glen Bennett, for chairing most of the submissions. A lot of the timekeeping falls on Glen\u2019s head as well with the submissions, because I had been actually with the tourism Minister in China at that time. So yeah, it\u2019s been a really great process for us to come into conversations with lots of the industries, including the airlines, including different airports. I had been able to catch up with them at different occasions and they had all thoroughly enjoyed the process of the select committee submissions, but also some really important conversations about a critical infrastructure and critical supply to our fuel industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EThis is setting a floor to how much we need to reserve in our country. Can I just put on record that the Marsden Point refinery was closed down because of commercial reasons and it was by a private company, and if the Opposition is willing to commit to use taxpayers\u2019 money to go fund a public oil refinery, I think that would set some sort of historical record as well. But it\u2019s also great to be able to talk and agree on saying that our country definitely needs to have that reassurance, especially, as the last speaker, Stuart Smith, has just talked about, in cases of emergency such as in Christchurch, and talking about the diesel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe have lifted the floor\u2014well, we will be through this legislation\u2014on all types of fuel, whether it\u2019s petrol, jet fuel, or diesel. So saying that just because diesel is comparatively lower to the other types of fuel doesn\u2019t actually mean that it\u2019s not enough or doesn\u2019t set the required standards for diesel; it\u2019s just the comparative standard. So during Christchurch and the situation that happened, that was because there was no floor\u2014it was lower than the standard we had already set at. So it\u2019s always being able to look across the whole entire economy\u2014all of our communities and needs\u2014to set that floor for different types of fuels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI just wanted to also touch on the fact that there has been discretion given\u2014when we talk about situations of emergency\u2014to the Minister to consider when people are not able to comply with their obligations, what types of concessions can the Minister give, and that is to be able to give flexibility to the situations that we\u2019ve been in. But overall, like I said, once again, it is a balance across all different competing criterias we have to weigh up. Finally, I just wanted to say that as the world is changing, as different types of energy are changing, this is a bill that will protect the interests of New Zealand, putting the needs of New Zealand at the forefront. So that is why I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec0cf1982135411b9f9c0ad8bac5d538\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec0cf1982135411b9f9c0ad8bac5d538\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s one that National supports, although there are some concerns from the National Party at the speed with which this is progressing through Parliament. We note that the bill was introduced as recently as June and gave the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee just two months to report back, allowing stakeholders only two weeks to submit their views which is a very short time line considering that the Marsden Point oil refinery closed a bit over 15 months ago. So we do have some concerns that they didn\u2019t provide adequate time for stakeholders and the public to share their views on what is a significant piece of legislation for New Zealand\u2019s fuel market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a lot of discussion, obviously, around fossil fuels and alternative fuels, etc. but the reality is we still require fossil fuels, there is no alternative\u2014for example, for jet fuels\u2014at this point that\u2019s financially realistic. And so we are going to need these and that\u2019s why we have this bill here today recognising that these fuels are critical for New Zealand\u2019s export economy, for our connection to the world, and for the ability for us to send things to the rest of the world and for other things that we need from the rest of the world that we can\u2019t produce here to be sent to New Zealand, to keep our planes running, to keep our tractors running, etc. There is an energy transition happening, but there are sectors of the economy which just can\u2019t operate without these fossil fuels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo this bill will require minimum stockholding obligations calculated on the previous year\u2019s consumption of litres per day. So it\u2019s 28 days consumption of petrol on average, 24 days of consumption for jet fuel on average, and 21 days of consumption for diesel on average. It\u2019s also recognising, I think, that fuel security is, like I said, really important for the economy and the wellbeing, actually, of New Zealand and New Zealanders. There is, unfortunately, some significant geopolitical instability in the globe at the moment that we\u2019ve obviously seen with the war in Europe which would have been unthinkable only a few years ago. But we do need to have security of supply particularly for diesel\u2014only 21 days of consumption of diesel. If we don\u2019t have diesel we don\u2019t have trucks moving around the country taking food around the country to supermarkets, we don\u2019t have tractors out there tilling the soil and getting goods to market etc., etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo it is a relatively short time but it\u2019s important that we have this disclosure and we have this understanding of the fuel stocks on hand in New Zealand. Just on the point of this being rushed, it is important that we have a good discussion and a good debate about these issues because they are quite challenging and they are very, very complex. I note, for example, that back in I think it was 2021, the Minister of Finance, I think it was, asked ACC to accelerate its moves to divest from investments in fossil fuels and, obviously, ACC held at that point around 10 percent of Refining NZ\u2019s shares. There was some clarification sought from the Minister about his position in relation to ACC and other Crown-related funds investing in Refining NZ. I don\u2019t believe the Minister wanted to get involved with that. Obviously now Marsden Point oil refinery has closed and we have lost those jobs and those opportunities in Northland, I just think it\u2019s really important that, though we have this goal of carbon zero by 2050 and the steps towards that, that we make sure we do this in a sensible and careful way and that we don\u2019t have unintended consequences along the way. For example, banning gas, when other countries are using gas as a transition fuel to move away from coal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022446736afd1564d648d2872a38dec75d3\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: No one\u2019s banning gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216b0be4c674f4dc8809e924e72d1e190\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we\u2019ve seen that in New Zealand. For example, we\u2019ve actually been reporting a record amount of Indonesian coal in recent years as opposed to countries, say, Canada, which have been moving very heavily into using gas as a transition fuel, and a lot of investment being put into that and recognising that has a lower carbon component and a lesser impact on the climate than coal does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo as a country we need to have ambitious goals but we also need to be very careful about how we progress towards them and that we don\u2019t send ourselves backwards along the track and, unfortunately, I think we actually have done that in the last few years with using more coal. Because, fundamentally, we need to keep the lights on, we need to keep people warm, we need to keep our economy moving and so we do need to have some good discussion and debate around these issues. That\u2019s why it is disappointing that more time wasn\u2019t given for stakeholders to have more input into this bill so we can make sure we have all relevant information before Parliament as we take this important piece of legislation through the House. But with that, like I said, we do nevertheless support this bill, and do on that basis commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002227539b5074c248e29c2da389f8ce6f08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227539b5074c248e29c2da389f8ce6f08\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m really glad that the National Party is supporting this legislation, and, as has been spoken about already, there has been a good debate within our select committee, and I was happily able to chair part of it as the deputy chair. Often it\u2019s around quality, not quantity, and so the 11 submissions and then eight oral submissions that were presented, in a timely fashion, were good, robust conversation. As has been mentioned by Minister Henare, there was some good debate and some good changes made during that process to ensure that this has come back to Parliament all the better, and for the future. That was around the commencement date, the calculation method which had been debated and many in the industry talked about that and the pecuniary penalties and the enforceable undertakings and exemptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s always nice when you have a piece of legislation when it\u2019s really clear in the title of the bill, and the fact that it is improving fuel resilience, which is in the title; this is what this is about and it\u2019s important. Last night I was at an event and met one of the executives from Air New Zealand, and the first question they asked me was: have we passed this bill yet? And they are really, really interested to ensure\u2014and they submitted on it\u2014to make sure we get this through. Because, obviously, for them it\u2019s business, for them as a key stakeholder in New Zealand, as a key stakeholder in the regions like Taranaki. We need to ensure that resilience is there for our jet fuel, for our petrol, for our diesel, to make sure that we have resilience into the future, no matter what happens and what moves forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo it is really simple. I\u2019m encouraged that across the floor we have support this morning for this, and it means that we can continue to move on and make sure that the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill is able to take force, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00226f9aa942650a4eab994b3edc29654e4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f9aa942650a4eab994b3edc29654e4b\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill is attempting to solve a problem that is a genuine problem that needs to be addressed. That is the issue of resilience in New Zealand\u2019s fuel supply and fuel infrastructure. Why is it a problem? Well, according to some, it\u2019s because the Marsden Point oil refinery closed. Another reason given why New Zealand\u2019s access to liquid fuels is at risk is because the Ukraine war disrupted supplies, primarily from the world\u2019s biggest gas station, Russia. But, let\u2019s be honest, the major disruptor to fuel resilience and to a supply of affordable energy in New Zealand has been this Labour Government with its terrible policies, banning oil and gas exploration and forcing regulations and costs onto businesses that are simply trying to make products that are affordable for consumers, that want to hire workers, expand their facilities, manufacture and export to the world, and deliver better economic and social outcomes for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, it\u2019s their resilience that is at risk from this Labour Government, and this bill doesn\u2019t address that. In fact, it increases costs to consumers, increases the risk that some businesses might choose not to invest further in New Zealand because they\u2019re unsure about the regulatory environment that they would experience here. And for that reason, ACT won\u2019t support this bill, but we do have some suggestions as to how to improve fuel resilience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what does resilience mean? Well, if you live on the West Coast of the South Island, or if you live in Wellington and there\u2019s a major earthquake\u2014I\u2019m talking \u201Cthe big one\u201D: the Alpine Fault letting go, or a magnitude 8 earthquake on the Wellington Fault or the Wairarapa Fault; the kinds of events that absolutely annihilate cities and destroy infrastructure in a way that can take decades to rebuild. Ask the people of Christchurch what that was like, and that was only a 7-point-something. The Alpine Fault\u2019s going to deliver something between an 8 and a 10 magnitude earthquake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat does resilience mean to communities affected by that? Well, what it would mean is that there is infrastructure that is built to be resilient: roads, ports, additional lifeline routes. Transmission Gully into Wellington is a great example: before that was built, Wellington only had State Highway 2 over the Remutakas or State Highway 1 through K\u0101piti Coast. Resilience or fuel resilience can simply mean the tankers can get through, the trucks can get through. It doesn\u2019t necessarily mean building a whole lot of storage tanks or forcing the private sector to build a whole lot of storage tanks to store a couple of extra days\u2019 supply of diesel or petrol. That\u2019s nonsensical, because if the roads are broken and the port is devastated from an earthquake, it doesn\u2019t matter that you\u2019ve got a tank of petrol or diesel somewhere else in the country. It won\u2019t be able to get to the people who need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat about industrial action? Well, if there\u2019s one thing this Labour Government has ensured with its fair pay agreements, we\u2019re bound to get more industrial action unless we can turf this Government out in October. Isn\u2019t that right, Mr Baillie? Isn\u2019t that right? We\u2019re bound to get more union blockades at ports. No doubt there\u2019ll be climate-worried unionists wanting to blockade fuel terminals\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220932610c8096489db332938360f3df2a\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Or glue themselves to the water!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254988dd28ec249959c107279f71f4a4a\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or disrupt shipments, or, as Mr Simeon Brown said, maybe even glue themselves to the road in the path of fuel tankers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b5033b3a1a48748f2d4fe51c73350e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will come back to this bill instead of pontificating and saying what might happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eec8d9d1ef041df8be55d9953f3c59c\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, to describe my offer as pontificating is to deify me in a way that no one else would, but thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIndustrial action is a risk of fuel resilience, and then, of course, fuel quality: shipments of fuel coming to New Zealand which don\u2019t meet the quality standard. If you put dirty aviation fuel into a plane, that could cause a massive risk to passengers and freight. If you put dirty diesel into a truck, that could stop your truck on the side of the road, cause you the loss of a couple of days\u2019 business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe problem that most people face is when they go to fill up with gas, if they\u2019re not paying close attention, instead of putting diesel in the ute, they put petrol or vice versa\u2014that\u2019s the typical quality issue New Zealanders have to face. But let\u2019s be honest, even without Marsden Point oil refinery, there are a whole series of refineries on the East Coast of Australia, two to three days\u2019 sail away, that can take off-spec product out of New Zealand, return it to the refinery it was supplied from in Australia, probably get them to redo the batch\u2014at their own cost, if they\u2019ve supplied us with faulty product\u2014then we get it back and we\u2019re good to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, that brings me to the issue at hand: fuel resilience, the minimum stockholding obligation. This bill will require fuel companies to build tankage, to build pipe networks, to build bunded containment facilities, to fence them off, to provide fire protection systems and groundwater monitoring systems for a very long time to come. Because you don\u2019t just build a fuel storage tank, put 30, 50 thousand tonnes of fuel in it, and then say job done, walk away, we\u2019ll just send the tankers every few days. That requires constant monitoring, constant oversight, groundwater testing, air emissions testing. The obligation is not for a bit more diesel in a tank, it\u2019s for a whole lot of cost and red tape on industry out, potentially, decades into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd then we come to the next problem. Apparently this Government believes there\u2019s a climate emergency and that climate was a nuclear-free moment for a former Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, and her Labour Party. And yet here we have a Labour Government bill insisting on building more fuel storage around New Zealand. Apparently we\u2019re still going to need petrol and diesel into the future\u2014who knew?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, belatedly, Minister Megan Woods introduced this bill, gave the select committee two weeks to hear submissions on a matter that anyone in the industry, anyone in the transport industry depending on fuel, could have said we will always be reliant on liquid fuels until there is something cost effective to replace them. So, two different policy directions: save us from climate change by getting rid of fossil fuels; oh, by the way, could you please build more fuel storage for fossil fuels because we\u2019re going to need them a lot longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ECompletely incoherent policy approach, and that is why New Zealand, after six years, is begging for a change of Government, having practical people with policy solutions that actually make it more affordable to live and work in New Zealand, to set up and do business in New Zealand. That\u2019s what people are asking for. That\u2019s what ACT MPs are hearing when we go around the country. And they\u2019re also asking for some certainty and security about their energy supplies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what would ACT do? Well, we listen to the industry: the people who import fuel, the people who store fuel, the people who supply fuel\u2014not just to the retail service stations where I might take my Subaru and fill up with the highest octane I can get on any given day, but the people who supply fuel to all the trucking companies, to the telecommunications companies that depend on having diesel for generators to keep the telco networks up and running in the event of a loss of electricity or a loss of service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd what they told us was this: \u201CSimon, there are a whole lot of refineries on the east coast of Australia, a few days\u2019 sail away. There are ships constantly crossing the Tasman, loaded up with aviation fuel, with diesel and petrol. We rely on Australia. They are our only formal ally as nation states. New Zealand and Australia have a closer economic relations agreement. If we can\u2019t rely on Australian suppliers to supply us with petrol and diesel, who could we rely on? And if there needs to be a minimum stockholding obligation, well, could you please let us count the ships that are actually in the Tasman heading here? Because unless something goes terribly wrong, they\u2019re not likely to get lost travelling between the east coast of Australia and New Zealand. We\u2019d like to be able to count that fuel on the seas is part of the obligation. We think that\u2019s practical. We won\u2019t need to build any tankage.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party would concur with that. It comes at no cost to the taxpayer, no cost to the consumer; no extra infrastructure needs to be built; no extra bureaucracy and monitoring and regulatory compliance for new equipment; no risk of stranded assets and stranded capital\u2014another issue that suppliers of fuel are worried about. It\u2019s a very simple and elegant solution. It doesn\u2019t even require this Government to pass a law. That\u2019s what ACT would accept. That\u2019s what New Zealanders need: no or low-cost fuel security delivered by the private sector, market-based solutions. That\u2019s what ACT stands for and we look forward to delivering all of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002222353392da2b4ff4838cd86f36ed48d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222353392da2b4ff4838cd86f36ed48d9\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Whare. The Green Party is supporting this bill, the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill. It is prudent to have measures in place to ensure that we have that resilience, given the dependence of our transport system and economy on petrol and diesel for the time being. Of course, the singlebiggest action we could take to improve resilience\u2014and the single-biggest threat that we are facing is dangerous climate change from greenhouse gas emissions. And people who don\u2019t acknowledge that\u2014you have to wonder what they\u2019re paying attention to, because we\u2019ve had the highest temperatures in recorded history, in over 10,000 years, in the last summer in the Northern Hemisphere. We\u2019ve had horrific, severe rainfall events and cyclones hitting New Zealand already. The longer we take to stop fossil-fuel use, stop adding to that dangerous greenhouse pollution to the atmosphere, the worse it\u2019s going to be. And there\u2019s no adaptation after a certain point. So, while there are a bunch of vested interests who seem to want to make a few more dollars in the interim, before the Earth becomes uninhabitable, we have to stop listening to them and organise to support life on Earth and the future for our kids and their grandkids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAnd we can do that, because shifting to electrification of transport and our entire economy is nothing but upside for New Zealand. It\u2019s cleaner air. It\u2019s more resilience. It\u2019s cheaper cost to move people and goods. You know, we\u2019ve got abundant sun and wind energy that could be fuelling everything we do, and it\u2019s just all upside: creates jobs, better health. It\u2019s kind of astonishing to me that everyone in New Zealand isn\u2019t in agreement about the need to rapidly electrify as quickly as possible\u2014other than people have been very confused by the amount of money that was put into lobbying by the fossil fuel industry to delay this sort of action, because they make more money from the status quo while the planet gets trashed and people\u2019s lives are worse. So, yeah, we support this bill\u2014it\u2019s fine\u2014but let\u2019s see some real action on the real, imminent, clear and present danger and seize the opportunity of electrification and energy efficiency here in Aotearoa. That will give us energy independence, make our people healthier and happier, and reduce costs. The most effective thing we could do to reduce inflation is to shift away from petrol and diesel and shift to clean, renewable electricity generated right here in our country. People need to vote Green, I guess, if they want that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002219a97ecff5b9449f9f30b453ba29e3dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219a97ecff5b9449f9f30b453ba29e3dc\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very pleased to stand and commend the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill on this reading in the House. I also did enjoy the clarity of thought and intent in the ACT Party\u2019s presentation on this bill and the commendable level of honesty\u2014that, effectively, their policy in this important strategic area is to freeload off Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ENow, there are two points of interest that the House might like to be aware of here. Firstly, Australia has a minimum stockholding obligation and, in fact, that minimum stockholding obligation is shortly to increase\u201424 days is going to 27 days for petrol, going from 20 to 32 days for diesel, and going from 24 days to 27 days for jet fuel in 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe member who spoke for the ACT Party also displays an astonishing degree of naivety. His argument appeared to be that if New Zealand ever gets in shtook because of global supply chain factors restricting our access to critical fuel, which is important for our economy, for our society, for jobs and all of the rest of it, the Australians will just step in and help out. These are the blokes who bowled an underarm to the New Zealand cricket team, whose NRL refs every week try and do over the Warriors, to little effect at the moment. And in the event of global supply chain shocks, the Australian Government and the Australian people quite rightly will focus on making sure that they have security of supply in their own country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIt is incumbent on this Government and this House to make sure that we look after New Zealand by having prudent measures in place. That is what this bill does. This is a very standard and orthodox approach to making sure that we have sufficient stockholdings in place. Most developed countries have it around the world. COVID-19 and the supply-chain shocks that occurred during that period really did relay and bring home the importance of prudence in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESupply chains are under stress in what is a challenging international and global environment. There are many things that could create those stresses again, and it is critical that we have these sorts of economic cushions in place to make sure that our supply chains do keep supplied with fuel. Most of the House recognises this, and the ACT member\u2019s speech was a good reminder of the dangers of having an extremist and highly ideological ACT party anywhere near the Treasury benches. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4c214bd357641069d13b0772e7fb8d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4c214bd357641069d13b0772e7fb8d8\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a58c9f8112a84d219253653a8a44aafd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A five-minute call\u2014I\u2019m sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab0b15e5aee461483f29daa1de41d75\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I knew that. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and participate in the debate on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill. I think having resilience in our fuel industry is actually really important, considering the fact that\u2014first of all, I\u2019ll say that the National Party supports this bill. I know that some members opposite have raised issues as to why we did not actually support the report back from the select committee. I\u2019ll answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWe have a serious concern in terms of process as to how quickly the bill\u2014after having actually been introduced in June, the select committee only literally had two months to report this back. And that means the stakeholders literally only had two weeks to actually get their act together, make submissions for this to happen. I know that Glen Bennett, who chaired most of it, mentioned that he wanted quality not quantity. I think that\u2019s precisely the problem that we actually see. Rushed quality is not always good quality, Mr Bennett, and I think that was the concern. But having said that, I have to say Naisi Chen\u2019s timekeeping must have rubbed off on you as you were very diligent in your timekeeping and actually kept us in check.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI think one of the issues that Stuart Smith, my colleague, elaborated on for the select committee process was that because it was rushed and we didn\u2019t have a lot of time and we knew that there were things that we couldn\u2019t really sort of delve into and have a deeper conversation and have had more submissions from the sector\u2014but I think where this bill has actually come to, providing resilience, to actually have onshore stockholding for fuel for all petrol, jet fuel, and diesel and having a minimum average stockholding, is a good one. And the reason is that, for example, in the jet fuel industry with Marsden Point closing, we actually have had a bad shipment of jet fuel that arrived in the country in a space of a year. That actually meant that they had to ration fuel, which meant there were disruptions in our flights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThat is rather a difficult situation for us to be in, considering the fact that New Zealand does in fact not only have domestic planes, but we also have international visitors who couldn\u2019t rely on the jet fuel to be the right quality. Earlier, I think, one of the speakers mentioned about having to fly with a heavier load of fuel on the plane, which is actually an extra cost for them and actually having to land in a midpoint to refuel, which is also extra added cost to the industry and the airline industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe Green member talked about the environmental concerns. I think we are all aware of that. While we are starting to rely more on electric vehicles and decarbonising away from fossil fuels, we still have industries where they do rely on fossil fuels. And we need to actually keep the New Zealand economy moving, making sure that things\u2014our food and stock\u2014are in fact delivered to the destination. They do rely on fossil fuel, and having a resilient stockholding would actually mean that they can actually go about their business, not worrying about having a contingency plan should there be a bad stock of fuel that is arriving, like we actually had with the jet fuel industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESome of the recommendations from the select committee which the Minister earlier talked about\u2014one of the things that I\u2019m particularly proud of is the penalties in relation to individuals, because often some of the actions that they were actually wanting to penalise may not necessarily have been their own in terms of wanting to be a bad actor. Sometimes it\u2019s the exceptional circumstances that they are in that actually put them in a situation where they may not be meeting the required obligations. I think that is actually a good move, and delaying the start date when this bill comes into action\u2014instead of April 2024, we actually start in January 2025\u2014is something that I really support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAnd on that note, Mr Speaker, I\u2019ve run out of my time and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022405d800e8d274b4aa197ef88831c0e3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022405d800e8d274b4aa197ef88831c0e3e\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s my privilege to speak on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill, and acknowledging the contributions of the House this morning. This bill, the fuel industry amendment bill, boosts New Zealand\u2019s fuel supply, resilience, and economic security by ensuring there is sufficient fuel supply to weather any major disruptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThere were 11 submissions that were made on this particular bill\u2014eight additional submissions that were made orally\u2014and just acknowledging, I guess, the discussion in the House this morning that some members did feel that there was a bit of pressure, and also acknowledgment of the chair, Naisi Chen, in her well-managed facilitation and timekeeping of those submissions throughout the process, albeit it was condensed, and well managed quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill that we do want to proceed with, and, of course, there is acknowledgment that there are a number of proposed changes to this bill that have been recommended by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, one of which is to amend the proposed clause 2(1) to bring the information disclosure and minimum fuel stockholding obligation (MSO) provisions into force on specific dates. The information disclosure provisions would come into force on 1 July 2024 and MSO provisions on 1 January 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThere are a number of proposed changes, albeit the well-managed time facilitation, \u201Cgetting things done\u201D approach of this Government, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022809731c6e554465bae77373c958b1d91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022809731c6e554465bae77373c958b1d91\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Not only has there been the experience in New Zealand of the aviation fuel mini-crisis, if you like, that has been alluded to this morning, but recently I was at an event I hosted where the EU spoke about lessons learned from the war in Ukraine, and a really, really big factor in that was about access to fuel, the absolute importance to be able to have access to keep the economy running.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI sat on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee at the time when submissions were being made, and there was a question about whether fuel could be held in ships that kind of went around the coast of New Zealand. We heard very clearly that the nature of fuel is such that even if it tests OK out on those ships, by the time it gets to shore it can be contaminated, with catastrophic consequences, so that wasn\u2019t an option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESimon Court mentioned the fact that ports and roads and other elements also play a part in fuel resilience, and while that is true, if there is no fuel to start with then that point becomes moot, so I\u2019m not sure where his argument was going. He also said that he listens to the industry. Well, that\u2019s great, but on this side of the House we listen to New Zealanders, and one thing that\u2019s really clear to us is New Zealanders value our self-determination. The last thing we want to do, as the Hon Michael Wood said, is be totally dependent on Australia, and naively so, being at the mercy of what the free market ideology that Simon Court is proposing might throw up, whether it is outrageous fuel prices or, if that was not possible in a regulated market, some kind of beholdenness to Australia\u2014absolutely outrageous. I hope there are no Australian media watching who are going to suggest that we would try and pull this on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis is a rational and pragmatic bill. There\u2019s also a sense of urgency to it, because COVID has taught us that we do need to be prepared, and that\u2019s why we need to get this done. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022289a9ad832c54fe6b05a8ec70e67daa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022289a9ad832c54fe6b05a8ec70e67daa1\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill. As has been mentioned, the National Party of course supports this bill, which will help to secure our resilience for fuel stocks in the case of global events which risk the fuel supply in New Zealand. I have been really enjoying listening to members on the other side of the House talking about how important fuel is to our economy and how important it is that we can fuel our cars and our trucks and our planes so that we can keep the engine room of our economy moving. What we often hear from the other side of this House is that we need to stop driving, stop flying, and stop using trucks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EOf course, the irony of it is that this is a Government which, when they first came to office, banned oil and gas exploration here in New Zealand. How things have changed and the Government has changed its approach, and here we are now finally talking about how we can actually secure resilience in the supply of oil and gas and petrol, diesel, and jet fuel here in New Zealand, which is, of course, critically important to our country. So, whilst we have raised concerns about the rushed process that this Government has put to this piece of legislation\u2014there are, of course, regulatory impacts which should have been given more time and consideration by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, allowing for the industry who are impacted to be able to work that through\u2014we do, of course, commend this bill to the House. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00225abc44726e57479c9e82d17c30bf4cdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225abc44726e57479c9e82d17c30bf4cdf\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just a few comments to make on this piece of legislation as it passes through the House today. Primarily, it is about Governments doing what all Governments do, and that is put backstops in where they are needed. This is about ensuring resiliency in an area where everyone in this country is impacted if we are unable to ensure not only supply of fuel but appropriate quality of fuel\u2014it does have huge impacts for our industry, for mums and dads around the country. So this is about doing what Governments should do, which is building resiliency into the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EObviously, as there\u2019s broad support across the House, no one is disputing that. Also, no one is disputing that we are in uncertain times, and unless we are able to do what we need to do to provide resiliency in this part of our economy and in this part of the sector in our industry, we would throw ourselves, as a nation, into huge disruption if there were disruptions to fuel and to the quality of fuel. So, in that vein, and not wanting to hold the passage of this bill up any further, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226580a0da169648a19c12124d71a8a649\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 29; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000205\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d6daa021804405eb1ce89a61c73213a\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002240485be556de4293aa99af5261ebb407\u0022\u003ETaxation Principles Reporting Bill\u2014Correction, Leave Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00225cbcd54fe28c4c18aefdf39a0f219113\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cbcd54fe28c4c18aefdf39a0f219113\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve been made aware of an error in the vote on the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill second reading, where the National Party opposed the amendments recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee but the motion that the bill be read a second time was passed on the voices. I seek leave for the vote to be recorded for National as 30 votes opposed on the substantive motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e53f1d3071c64fdc9291e258d7e41e7b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to hold a party vote on the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82c925d92c84d40bb88543d473306d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82c925d92c84d40bb88543d473306d2\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Just objection\u2014speaking to that point of order. My understanding is that we would need\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022456e9a8270974d72866439cbf3d7ad3b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I take it there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f3d12a4d184b84b720a8af62b60af8\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235505083838a405ca35b3aa6024f82ea\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022da2af5ddced440d2baa309a37c5ad383\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da2af5ddced440d2baa309a37c5ad383\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I think the member, Mr Halbert, was going to inform the House that a correction of the record in this way is not possible. But actually, the House is the architect of its own destiny, and I think the way in which you put the leave was much better than I had sought it, which was to simply hold a party vote. That\u2019s still within the prerogative of the House, and I just want to make sure that Mr Halbert is aware of that before declining leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229850958b40ba4c5d9b1a86f8d5e3b4c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229850958b40ba4c5d9b1a86f8d5e3b4c8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I\u2019ll allow you to do is to ask for leave. Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u002288f6826f4ac14f4fac2c6a17cbdfc5d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288f6826f4ac14f4fac2c6a17cbdfc5d2\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The ACT Party seeks leave to also amend their vote in the final vote for the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill as well, if we may, please, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224e7487d91c4d4143811d9b95b45f78c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e7487d91c4d4143811d9b95b45f78c2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022132f4fba063745e1b784bef0be9af9eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022132f4fba063745e1b784bef0be9af9eb\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Unfortunately, I wasn\u2019t in the House when the points of order around this first occurred, but my understanding is that my colleague was clarifying to you, Mr Speaker, that because the bill has been decided, a vote can\u2019t be taken but an option might be to record the other parties\u2019 opposition within the Journals. I\u2019m advised that that\u2019s the appropriate way\u2014because the vote has been decided\u2014that this should be dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5aa50641dce45aab105137a57bf3bb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5aa50641dce45aab105137a57bf3bb6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just take some advice on that. Just in relation to the point of order, I\u2019m advised that that is not an option, because there was no party vote. However, since there seems to be a desire to see a way through this, what I\u2019ll do is ask the Hon Michael Woodhouse to put that request again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5671ab9bc784863b556689e74362730\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5671ab9bc784863b556689e74362730\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for a party vote to be held on the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227ec7ec107bbf4e73a141d4e6e8ed1cb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ec7ec107bbf4e73a141d4e6e8ed1cb8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278788c197fbb46dfa82f2b89d77b85b8\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203bf7f9f78574a55af2b2d7257f6fcad\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227edbd0032e8d426ea776a0d7f4b8ba62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227edbd0032e8d426ea776a0d7f4b8ba62\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Transport: I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022084e6884c42c43f08fdd64dfde8936d4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ba23cb714aa4a1f952c4eaacb1cd104\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of the Government\u2019s commitment to improve public transport in Aotearoa New Zealand and, in turn, strengthen employee welfare and improve environmental and health outcomes. This bill aims to align the framework governing public transport planning and provision with Government objectives through the establishment of the Sustainable Public Transport Framework, or SPTF, addressing issues identified by the PTOM review, which is the Public Transport Operating Model review. The bill does this is several ways, including establishing new governing principles; creating greater flexibility around asset ownership and service provision models; enabling innovation in the types of services that can be provided, including supporting the provision of on-demand public transport services; creating new transparency and planning requirements; and altering and clarifying the regulation of exempt services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe have already taken important steps to reduce our public transport emissions through requiring that only zero-emission buses are purchased from 2025, and we have provided funding to decarbonise the bus fleet through Budget 2022. Through Budget 2022 and 2023, we have also funded improved bus driver wages and conditions. The SPTF is the next step towards embedding improved workforce and environmental outcomes in the public transport system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Land Transport Management Act 2003, replacing PTOM with the Sustainable Public Transport Framework. This framework will place workers and public transport users at the heart of public transport procurement, planning, and provision, while retaining successful components of PTOM. It will support workforce recruitment and retention and will prioritise fair and equitable treatment of employees, mode shift, and environmental and health outcomes. It will enable on-demand public transport services and enable public transport authorities to own assets and operate services, allowing tailored solutions for communities and greater service flexibility. New notice requirements for the withdrawal of integral exempt services will provide surety to regional councils and users. It also introduces new transparency and planning requirements, strengthening collaboration between regional councils and operators. Overall, this bill brings us a step closer to delivering positive environmental, social, and public transport specific outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThank you to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, which has done a lot of work on this\u2014so thank you to that select committee\u2014and also thank you to the 54 organisations and individuals who submitted on this bill. The diverse range of expertise shared by these submitters has been integral to getting the bill to this stage today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe recommendations made by the committee are supported, and I will touch briefly on several changes to the bill. The first change removes the automatic exemption for inter-regional services. This change was among the most advocated for changes by submitters. It amends the treatment of inter-regional services, making it so they are treated the same as services within a region. With this change, inter-regional services will only be exempt if they are not identified as integral and they operate without subsidy. This change reflects the inter-regional services that are already a critical part of the public transport system, and it makes it clear that there should be collaboration across regional boundaries to plan and deliver these services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also note that a transitional provision has been included to ensure this change does not affect funding arrangements for existing subsidised but exempt inter-regional services. This will prevent current services from being negatively impacted and will provide more flexibility for regional councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe second change clarifies which exempt services do not need to be registered, limited to certain unscheduled services and shuttle services. This is necessary to ensure scheduled public transport services continue to be registered, enabling continued regional council oversight of the public transport system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EA third change will ensure sufficient regional council funding is available before the Minister recommends the removal of a service exemption. We agree with the committee that consideration needs to be given to regional councils\u2019 ability to fund services if an exemption is removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EChanges have been made to the guiding principles. Specific mention of supporting equitable access and coordination of public transport services with land use have been included. It makes sense that these two vital components of an effective public transport system are directly mentioned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EFollowing feedback from submitters, the committee has recommended a sensible clarification to the transparency requirements. The change clarifies that if information is requested, it does not need to be disclosed by a regional council or Waka Kotahi if there are grounds to withhold it under other relevant legislation. This ensures improved transparency between operators, regional councils, and Waka Kotahi, while protecting commercially sensitive information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EFinally, the committee recommended changes to regional public transport plan\u2014or RPTP\u2014requirements. Changes to RPTP requirements will ensure consistency with the guiding principles. Removing commercially and competition-based requirements reflects the shift towards a more holistic approach to public transport provision. Meanwhile, requiring regional council consideration of public transport worker and representative union views when preparing RPTPs supports a fair and equitable workforce treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAgain, thank you to the select committee and to all those who submitted on the bill. We would always like to acknowledge your participation in the democratic process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis bill is another milestone in the Government\u2019s emissions reduction plan. The establishment of the Sustainable Public Transport Framework, which will replace PTOM, is necessary to lay the foundations to achieve emissions reductions through mode shift and decarbonising public transport. The reforms also address systematic issues in the sector and improve the regulation of public transport services. I commend the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220c58786e41d5435cb5e37a393725f571\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c58786e41d5435cb5e37a393725f571\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call on the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill which the National Party continues to oppose. We oppose this legislation because this is an example of more central planning and control of public transport services in New Zealand by a Government, without actually having a plan on how it is going to achieve better public transport. And, in fact, this piece of legislation, in my opinion, is going to put things backward because what it does is it, effectively, takes away the key requirements for operating a public transport service\u2014that it must be done in a commercial way where it goes through competitive tenders and where we know that there is good value for taxpayers money coming through that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWhat this legislation does is it, effectively, puts in place a whole new regime which dramatically changes that approach which has been in place. The Government stands up and says, \u201CWell, we need to change the system because, effectively, what we\u2019ve had is we\u2019ve had low use of public transport in recent years and we need to therefore throw everything out.\u201D Well, I wanted to put it straight on the record: this Government is responsible for the reasons why we have such poor patronage on our public transport network at this stage. And it is the former Minister of Transport who put this bill to the House, who was also the Minister of Immigration, who took 12 months too long to make sure that there would be enough bus drivers available to actually operate our public transport networks in New Zealand. And so this Government says, \u201CWell, it\u2019s all about wages and it\u2019s all about emissions and it\u2019s all about frequency.\u201D Well, actually, what they failed to think about was: how do we make sure we\u2019ve got enough bus drivers in the country to be able to actually operate the public transport network? It\u2019s even worse for our ferry services, where they have to wait even longer because of how long it\u2019s taken for the Government to actually change the immigration settings to be able to get ferry workers to be able to operate ferry services in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo we listened to officials throughout the process when this was before the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, and the question that was for me most interesting was the question around whether those issues that the Government said needed to be fixed could have been negotiated through the Public Transport Operating Model. The question around whether you could negotiate that the services that were operated by public transport operators had to be using, for example, electric buses\u2014well, yes; the answer was yes, you could include that as a requirement in the tendering process. Could you describe, in the tendering process, particular pay and conditions? The answer was yes. Could you put in place particular minimums of frequency? The answer was yes. And so all of the issues that the Government says needed to be fixed could all be managed through the tendering process under the Public Transport Operating Model legislation as it exists today, and does not require the Government to be passing new legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut in the meantime, what this legislation is doing is then taking things a step further. They are throwing out some of the key principles around how public transport operations should be undertaken in New Zealand and changing those principles dramatically. For example, one of the principles which is being removed is: \u201CThe incentives should exist to reduce reliance on public subsidies to cover the cost of providing public transport services.\u201D Making sure that public transport services are operating efficiently\u2014no longer a requirement. We went through this at select committee. In terms of the new principles they have a new principle which says the investment needs to be efficient, but then the following clause says, \u201Cproviding public transport services assists in furthering the principles \u2026 (a) to (d)\u201D, and of course efficiency comes under (e). So it\u2019s no longer required to actually be considered as part of making sure that taxpayers\u2019 money, when it\u2019s being put towards public transport, is actually operating in an efficient manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere are, of course, further changes which this bill does which came up through select committee, and there are a number of submitters who raised concerns around this, but the bill allows for in-house provision of public transport servicing with no tendering process required. The regulatory impact statement revealed that the Ministry of Transport had a differing preferred option to the Minister regarding this particular point\u2014basically said it\u2019s not going to work in terms of achieving better outcomes for public transport users. But no, the Government ignored that advice and instead has decided that public transport operators should be able to operate public transport services in-house, without a tendering process, which effectively means we\u2019re going to go back to the bad old days where public transport effectively operates within an opaque\u2014no one really knows how it\u2019s being funded and there will be no real clear measures and outcomes put in place. And that is going to be something which I don\u2019t think is going to deliver better public transport services for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAs I discussed, the issue around bus driver wages, that issue can already be resolved through the negotiation process and the tendering process. It didn\u2019t require a legislative change to actually address that. But I think the biggest issue really comes down to the fact that this Government is now saying to regional councils that instead of going out there and tendering, instead of having to go through a competitive process to operate a public transport service, making sure that the ratepayer and the taxpayer are getting good value for money, that the outcomes that are being required through that tendering process are being robustly tested against what the market can provide, instead of that approach being taken to public transport operation in New Zealand, what this legislation says, effectively, is that the regional transport operators\u2014regional councils\u2014will, effectively, be able to just decide to run that in-house. They\u2019ll own it, they\u2019ll run it, they\u2019ll operate it and I can tell you what, it will not work in New Zealand and things will go backwards, mark my words on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAnd so the National Party continues to oppose this piece of legislation. We share the concerns around what a number of players in the industry raised, that competition creates efficiency and removing that competition removes that efficiency and ultimately means that taxpayers and ratepayers don\u2019t get the value for money and don\u2019t get the service delivery. If we\u2019re going to achieve the increased patronage which we all aspire for our public transport operations, if we\u2019re going to get more people using buses and trains and ferries, it\u2019s not going to work if you operate an inefficient service run in-house by a council. It needs to go through a competitive process and that is exactly what this legislation ultimately overturns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo the National Party thanks those who submitted on this piece of legislation and the process that this went through via the select committee. We have not been convinced of the need for change through this legislation and we continue to oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228c66c85975b9455ab271ab10f1bc1c3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c66c85975b9455ab271ab10f1bc1c3c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00225b9e343897ea436fac9fd3d5bfee2dc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b9e343897ea436fac9fd3d5bfee2dc4\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. There it goes again: when it comes to getting on top of our transport challenges in this country, in particular in our largest city, the National Party is going backwards. They offer no help, no forward-thinking; no solutions about actually how we\u2019re going to tackle congestion and reduce emissions. They think by doing the same old thing it\u2019s going to get a better result\u2014it\u2019s simply not. When we look at the workforce shortages, absolutely, the pandemic has contributed to the challenges that are in front of us\u2014but naively, the National Party thinks that if we just let everyone in, that would solve our problems. It fails to actually acknowledge that not only was it the pandemic that impacted on our workforce shortages, but actually the drive to the bottom of how we pay bus drivers and ferry drivers is the number one reason why people leave the profession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EAnd so it\u2019s this Government, actually\u2014and can I acknowledge the Hon Michael Wood, who did the particular work on changing and putting up actual solutions that are going to change our public transport system. This bill amends the Land Transport Management Act 2003. It will replace the Public Transport Operating Model (PTOM) with the Sustainable Public Transport Framework. This framework will place workers and public transport users at the heart of our public transport system\u2014and procurement in planning and provision while retaining successful components of PTOM. It will support workforce recruitment and workforce retention, and prioritise fair and equitable treatment of employees that work in the sector, mode shift that we desperately need in a growing T\u0101makimakaurau, and environmental and health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s my privilege, always, to be the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. It\u2019s the role in this House that I value the most, next to being the MP for Northcote, because people in our city in Northcote, and as we know\u2014yes, an announcement this week: 100 percent of our bus shortage issues are back in order, we\u2019ve got our buses working and our drivers in place and being paid fairly because of this Government. We\u2019ve got some more work to do around ferries: I want to put it on the record that I\u2019m very, very disappointed that our ferry services at Birkenhead Wharf and Northcote Point have been cancelled recently; I\u2019ve raised my concerns about that. But this particular bill, of course, is one part of the issues that are in front of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThis Government is about change. It\u2019s about being bold and brave and actually putting good solutions in place to reduce congestion and to increase our public transport uptake in our largest city. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00223efd44f178f34610b9f610b853fd4ced\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223efd44f178f34610b9f610b853fd4ced\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, if that last speaker, Shanan Halbert, meant his final words about Birkenhead and Northcote, he would have seen that Fullers actually opposed the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill. I didn\u2019t see him advocating\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c52a9f8d9af4db5996904a36b683be7\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: They did because they\u2019ve got a monopoly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291c531b931f049a4bca8b1588047f2e1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: He says they\u2019ve got a monopoly\u2014he says they\u2019ve got a monopoly. Ha, ha! That\u2019s his view. He comes into this House and has the gall to say that there shouldn\u2019t be closures of certain ferry routes, when he actually opposes the organisation that provides those ferries and does an excellent job in Auckland, as a matter of fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENow, I didn\u2019t sit on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. I have been a member of the committee before but, unfortunately, I was not sitting on the committee this year and didn\u2019t see this bill. But, when you look at it, it is the true lefty approach that Government knows everything. You just have to take one sniff of this bill and you\u2019ll understand the failure of that Government over there and how they\u2019ve ruined this country in six years, and just the destruction they\u2019ve caused because of their ideology. It\u2019s the complete ideology that Government knows best; Government can control everything. If you leave it to Government, all public services will be delivered in the appropriate manner! That\u2019s what this bill does; it takes it away from competition. It takes away the competitive aspect and says councils can do a better job. Well, I don\u2019t know any council that can do a better job. I don\u2019t know any Government that can do a better job. If Government could do a better job, it would be doing it already, and it doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we were in Government\u2014in the last Government\u2014we brought in this concept that there would actually be some sharing of costs and some fair recovery. Now, that was one of the first things the Labour Party got rid of\u2014the idea of fair recovery, of making people actually pay something. The Minister may shake his head, but he knows damn well that they did take away that requirement for fair recovery. We had a 50 percent recovery that we were intending councils to get, and they got rid of that as soon as they got into Government. That was the first step of taking away any competition in the public transport sector, and this is just a final blast, you could say, to really consolidate the power in central government and local government and destroy any competitive pressure or tension that you may have in the market. And it will fail, just like any of the other left-wing ideological things that this Government has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EEvery time they do things like this, it just costs more money. We just have to look at their ideas around public transport in Auckland and how they were going to have this great cycling and walking bridge across the harbour and the millions of dollars that went in consultants\u2014for nothing. Then you look at Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving. There was an article in the paper this morning about the highest-paid officials in Wellington doing nothing. There\u2019s no actual results. And then the greatest irony of all is that today they\u2019re going to actually announce Cambridge to Piarere and some other roading projects that they cancelled when they got into Government. They were actually funded. They were actually there, funded, and these guys cancelled them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a93af9ccba9480393ac1ffe28e49d70\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right-o, Mr Bennett, now, you\u2019ve had a good 3\u00BD minutes. Let\u2019s have a look at the bill, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb887547577341e983103c031d121d3e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it\u2019s all part of this, because, like I\u2019ve been talking about, public transport and how they have taken an approach that the Government knows best and can do a bit of delivery has been shown to be a failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIf you look at what they did around that walking and cycling bridge, they said that Government could deliver this better. They couldn\u2019t even get it off the ground. They said that they could deliver light rail in Auckland. They haven\u2019t even got it off the ground. It will be the same in this context. And there\u2019s no ability to have environmentally friendly engagement with transport operators that may be looking at options to undertake better transport methods, to achieve the environmental goals they talk about, because they\u2019re taking away their competition. They\u2019re saying that the regional council will do it and the regional council will be better than the competitive aspect that you see. If anybody looks around New Zealand at the moment, at buses that are using more environmentally conscious sources of energy, they\u2019re coming from the private sector. That\u2019s where they\u2019re coming from. They\u2019re developing them themselves. That\u2019s what\u2019s happening, and to hide behind the environment as the reason for this bill is just another one of the ways that this Government has tried to pull the wool over New Zealanders\u2019 eyes for six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders are very aware that this has an impact on their daily lives. We can\u2019t just give away free things all the time and say Government will deliver a better result. That has an impact on everyday New Zealanders, has an impact on their interest rates at the moment, is going to have an impact on their job security, and every time this Government steps into this House and says, \u201CWe can do it better.\u201D, they\u2019ve failed. The last six years have shown they\u2019ve failed, and we didn\u2019t need to have the last six years. That approach has always failed. You can go back a hundred years and find out that the approach of big government always fails. It\u2019s not a new thing, but they had to go and prove again that it fails, and they have hurt a lot of New Zealanders in the process. This is just another example of big government\u2014government knows best; we can do it better than the private sector; we don\u2019t need competition; we don\u2019t need to have a competitive process; we don\u2019t want the private sector to engage in technologies and solutions that are better for New Zealand! \u201CLet big government do that; we\u2019re much better at it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWell, New Zealand has learned another lesson: you don\u2019t trust big government, you don\u2019t trust the Labour Party, you don\u2019t trust an ideology that\u2019s failed for a century, and it will fail in the future again. This piece of legislation is just an example of, and epitomises, the failure of this Government and how they have taken a great experiment with New Zealanders over the last six years. Their experiment was that they knew best and they could solve all the problems, and this experiment has failed. The leader that started the experiment\u2014she left. The Government, which is in tatters now, can\u2019t control anything in the economy. They can\u2019t control their own team. It\u2019s a complete and utter failure, and New Zealanders are paying for it. They\u2019re paying for it at the pump, they\u2019re paying for it in interest rates, and they\u2019re going to pay for it with their jobs. And it\u2019s a shame that New Zealanders had to be taken down that road again, because people used arguments around the environment and such like to try to position themselves for their real ambition, which is what this bill does: that Government will deliver, Government will solve your issues, and Government is the answer. It doesn\u2019t work all the time\u2014and, in public transport, it certainly doesn\u2019t work all the time\u2014and this is a great example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIf it did work, where\u2019s that beautiful bridge for people to walk and cycle across the Auckland harbour? Where\u2019s that beautiful rail network that was going to go in, which hasn\u2019t even got off the ground? Where\u2019s the effectiveness of the transport, Ministers? And why, on their last days, do they have to go out and promise a whole lot of roading projects that they cancelled six years ago because of their agenda and their failed view and experiment for New Zealand? Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3807c14c5a74a86bc777376c8167490\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3807c14c5a74a86bc777376c8167490\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019m going to try and address some of the rant and ramble that I just heard, because it\u2019s a little crazy-making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227744eec50b81450f89a5e73555cc9195\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve only got 10 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb82648ac6604e3386a9310bfc0c55d1\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: What we\u2014that\u2019s true, I have only got 10 minutes. We have an interesting confusion here, because what the Public Transport Operating Model did was it actually prescribed\u2014central government prescribed\u2014that people had to contract out the services, which meant you had to give the money, if you were a local council, to run public transport to the private sector, i.e., Mr Bennett\u2019s mates. You weren\u2019t actually in a position where you could run the service yourself, if it made sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9796be2f13244c5b4d9d66d524fbf00\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ae3f0b9835c4de6a756bb0eb0fd9a56\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261034ca8f0d847708c35217fe463c084\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246e653074c004683b17298d6a688c94d\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I take offence at that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227835ac6c601b465d91740d82edaf17f6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think, David, you\u2019re a robust character. I don\u2019t think there was anything in there to take offence. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022310b5ca534a343928ba58fea5198694f\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker. So the issue with this bill is it is actually allowing true competition, because the public entity gets to choose, the local body gets to choose, who it is contracting with. It doesn\u2019t have to just look at efficiency; it can look at a whole lot of other factors when it does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, the problem with running something like a big team of buses or ferries is that it\u2019s really expensive, and so you often end up in a position where you\u2019ve got very little choice if you leave it entirely to the private sector. So we can see that with Fullers ferries: it\u2019s the only show in town, and you\u2019re really stuck with it because you haven\u2019t invested in ferries and competition to it. That is really important, that we break that down, because in Auckland at the moment we have not had great public services. Actually, as a result of focusing on wages of our bus drivers, we have managed to solve that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo this is the framework which allows good solid public transport and choice when you are Auckland Transport or you are the Auckland Council\u2014choice about how you do it and actually bringing competition in, not strangling the situation and actually telling people how to do it from central government. So this is the irony, this is the great difference from the speech that we\u2019ve just heard\u2014this is the opposite. This is a Government bill which puts choice back in the hands of local body and allows the build-up of public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I have once before spoken about my experience as a lawyer for the bus union. I remember how terrible things were in those times, when bus drivers were just getting so little pay and they had split shifts and they were on minimum wages. The answer to our bus driver shortages is just simply not lower conditions and bringing in migrants to do low-paid work, because guess who pays for that? Those workers pay, but also we all pay, because we have to house those bus drivers in Auckland. Let\u2019s start employing people on decent terms and conditions, and let\u2019s see what can happen as a result. And, lo and behold, what happened this morning? We had an announcement that bus driver shortages are over in Auckland because people are being paid decently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s move on. Let\u2019s have a framework that works for this country and brings our public transport system up to date. I commend this bill to the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa34ff61096c42a4bb81323829ee697c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa34ff61096c42a4bb81323829ee697c\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E That was the most remarkable series of assertions from the Labour member, Helen White, about what this bill intends to do, what the benefits are, and what the risks are of not following through. But ACT has a differing view, which was presented in the report back on the Land Transport (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill, which some people might say is a version of \u201Cbus communism\u201D but let\u2019s give the Government the benefit of the doubt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdfc1fd08ea3466b92f9281352cb8608\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Socialism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022398f12d9538b4be79f54ad0c95759cdf\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, all socialism ends in communism. You know that. So the policy intention is that this bill will achieve the objectives to regulate public transport and to prioritise mode shift\u2014that\u2019s bullying people out of cars and on to public transport, walking, and cycling. Then there\u2019s fair and equitable treatment of employees. Well, imagine that. New Zealand already has laws that require employers to treat their employees fairly, but for some reason the Minister responsible for the bill at the time, the Hon Michael Wood, insisted that fair and equitable treatment of employees be included in a bill about public transport, for goodness\u2019 sake, as well as improved environmental health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EPublic transport serves a vital good. It enables people to get from their place of work to home, from home to school, wherever they are going, in large numbers. It\u2019s meant to be efficient. It\u2019s meant to be delivered in an effective way so it can move the most people in the shortest possible time. Environment and health outcomes should not be in this bill. Environment legislation is covered by the Resource Management Act. Climate legislation is covered by the emissions trading scheme, which puts a price on emissions. Health outcomes are up to the public health agencies. This bill is another example of the incoherent approach to delivering better value for money, more affordable living for New Zealanders. It\u2019s confused, and, frankly, it\u2019s unnecessary. It\u2019s a waste of the committee\u2019s time, and ACT does acknowledge that the officials who contributed to this bill and came to the select committee were doing their best to help committee members understand it, although it\u2019s quite clear that some of those on the Government side of the House still don\u2019t understand it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill enables regional councils to own assets directly by removing the requirement for local authority interests in public transport services to be held in a council controlled organisation. I\u2019m going to read that again\u2014it enables councils to own assets directly. Now, has anyone heard of three waters? The three waters reform, which is a bill that passed yesterday, forces councils to hand over their assets in three waters, and this bill says they should own public transport assets. The incoherence, the confusion, the lack of policy principles is not remarkable; it\u2019s what\u2019s got us to this place in six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut Kiwis shouldn\u2019t worry because there\u2019s going to be a general election. ACT has some practical policy solutions to get to you on the bus, get your bus there on time, and get you to work on time or school on time if that\u2019s where you need to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat else does the bill do? It requires public transport services to be procured and planned and operated in an open and transparent manner. I would hope to goodness that in New Zealand services procured with taxpayers\u2019 and ratepayers\u2019 funds are procured in an open and transparent manner. Because if they\u2019re not we\u2019d want the Auditor-General to go and have a look at it, wouldn\u2019t we? Wouldn\u2019t we? Oh, no, does this now need to be included in a public transport bill? What else has failed in the last six years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d18bd575be491c81b209f51ccb839e\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t have enough time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d7757b8e10f49968de31a0ef7bfda9e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I don\u2019t have much time\u2014I\u2019m going to stick to the bill. The bill proposes to encourage greater collaboration between regional councils and territorial authorities. For people listening at home who think that all councils are kind of the same, regional councils typically control regional land transport plans. They have a regional overview\u2014a really important role. Territorial authorities are your city council and your district council, which often provide the infrastructure\u2014for example, the bus stop or the local road the bus travels on. Of course they should collaborate. How on earth is that since the Local Government Act was amended by a former Labour Government to give councils the power of general competency, which means they can do anything, anywhere at any time they like, including competing with the private sector, Helen White, and it isn\u2019t a very good idea, if you want the private sector to be delivering efficient services and to have a fair go, to have local government soaking up its overheads with ratepayers\u2019 funds and going out there and competing unfairly with the private sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut imagine greater collaboration between regional and district and city councils. Well, of course that is necessary, but the power of general competence has led to councils becoming less competent at everything. It\u2019s expanding the definition of public transport\u2014and this is the kicker; this is what really tears ACT\u2019s nighty\u2014to clarify the treatment of on-demand public transport services as public transport services. These guys want to patch over Uber. These guys want to use taxpayer and ratepayer funds to subsidise services on demand. I\u2019ve got an app on my phone. If I want on-demand services, I can get them now. It\u2019s absolutely unnecessary, incoherent overreach from a Government that is out of ideas and has failed at everything it\u2019s tried to deliver, including getting the buses to run on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo we can assume there are worthwhile benefits from public transport which are shared by the fare-paying passenger and the road operators due to reduced congestion and emissions at peak times, because, of course, if you\u2019re operating a diesel bus, if you\u2019re operating a private motor vehicle that runs on petrol and diesel, you will pay for your emissions under the emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s assume there\u2019s an economic model that demonstrates there are worthwhile benefits from public transport, and that\u2019s why it should be delivered as efficiently as possible, so that costs are minimised and benefits are maximised, and the people who pay for it should be the people who benefit from it to a large degree. It\u2019s not clear that this piece of legislation will do that. In fact, it\u2019s much more likely that regional and city councils who want to take on the role of owning the buses and owning all the infrastructure\u2014and remember they\u2019re already cash strapped. Remember that one of the reasons for the three waters reforms is because apparently councils can\u2019t borrow any more money. They\u2019re already cash strapped. So where on earth they\u2019re going to get the money to buy all these buses and build all this infrastructure is unknown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s assume that it needs to be delivered as efficiently as possible. Well, the people who benefit are the people who get to use the bus. But under this Government\u2019s model, fewer and fewer people are paying the full cost or even a fair share of the cost of public transport. And then you think about all the people on the road who might say, \u201CWell, I would use the bus if it arrived on time and if it was a good service.\u201D And yet what did the former Minister Michael Wood do for the people of West Auckland? He said, \u201CInstead of a northern northwest busway like the one that we built out in the North Shore, you can have bus stops on the side of the motorway at Te Atat\u016B and Lincoln Rd.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd that former Minister said in a select committee that that\u2019s what good public transport looks like. Now, ACT disagrees. So do the people of West Auckland. That is the most outrageous claim from the former Minister Michael Wood\u2014that bus stops on the side of the motorway represent good public transport. But that\u2019s the vision\u2014bus communism, patching over Uber, and bus stops on the side of the motorway\u2014from a Government that said climate change is a nuclear-free moment and that you should all get out of cars and get on the bus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnyway, it\u2019s only a few short weeks to the election. There will be a referendum on the former Minister\u2019s bus stops on the side of the motorway in a few short weeks, and I think the people of West Auckland will vote against them. So what would that do? Well, let\u2019s assume there\u2019s an opportunity to reset expectations. We would say there\u2019s a need for investment in public transport and the transport infrastructure and networks and services in general. Best way to do that? Get the cities and districts to tell central government what they need to deliver for a growing population. Establish 30-year infrastructure plans that lock that in so future politicians can\u2019t come along and say, \u201CYou get light rail, you get a bridge.\u201D\u2014that won\u2019t happen under an ACT 30-year infrastructure plan\u2014and lock in the funding and financing, including bringing in billions from the private sector to support the delivery of good public transport and transport infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00224e5263feb32244bb8597d8696855efb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e5263feb32244bb8597d8696855efb8\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. This is a really good bill. It\u2019s a move in the right direction. I have to start by congratulating the Hon Michael Wood for all the effort that led to this bill finally coming to the House and to the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and all the members\u2014Shanan Halbert and all the Labour members. I think that we did really good work at the select committee and made further improvements to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EUltimately, New Zealanders want better public transport. They do. We\u2019ve just seen a poll of New Zealanders which said 72 percent wanted to see the priority as more investment in public transport, rail, and coastal shipping; not new roads. People in New Zealand are crying out for options that don\u2019t force them into using a car for every single trip; spending $8,000 a year, on average, owning and operating a car. They want more people-friendly cities where their kids can have more independence to get around, as we once had. We can do all of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, the most outrageous thing to me is that the members speaking on the right say they care about economic efficiency and outcomes, and yet they keep proposing failed models that won\u2019t get those outcomes they say they want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just have a little bit of history about this bill, how we ended up having to come to this bill. In the 1990s, we had a National Government that forced local councils to sell off bus operations and to privatise the operation of bus services, and that led to the lowest level of public transport use in the history of New Zealand, really, in the mid-1990s. Of course, that\u2019s only just started getting built back up, particularly after the establishment of the Auckland Regional Transport Authority\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022049787489f6c40c5b093ae03c86d6bd0\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: The 1990s! Oh, dear oh dear, 1990s! How could she know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7fcb2b928f842e8aa945f938c657305\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve seen the graph with the data. I mean, I know this is a huge mystery to the National Party, that you could actually look at evidence and data; they just rely on their reckons based on their experience. But I actually look at data, the Hon Judith Collins, and the data shows that public transport was at an absolute low in the 1990s, after being at incredibly high levels in the 1950s when we had electric trams across many of our cities. But, anyway, I digress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAfter the establishment of the Auckland Regional Transport Authority, we started to see some improvements to public transport in Auckland. I mean, Wellington, because it had its rail network electrified a long time ago, actually maintained relatively high levels of public transport and had clean electric trolley buses running until 2018\u2014it\u2019s a shame that those got ripped out, and I did my best to stop that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBefore Steven Joyce came in, there was the Public Transport Management Act, which was passed by the Labour-led Government. What\u2019s interesting about that is they brought three options to the House, and there was option one, option two, and option three. Option three gave the regional councils or the public transport authorities the most power to use the data to plan a good public transport network that would serve the people of their communities. Interestingly, Simon Court probably doesn\u2019t know this but Jeanette Fitzsimons called up Rodney Hide and the ACT Party and convinced them that even though they were kind of generally opposed to public transport that if public money was going into public transport, it made sense to get most value for the community out of that public money. That\u2019s why the ACT Party supported option three, which, actually, the Labour Government wasn\u2019t supporting, but option three ended up passing, which was great, and then National got in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the thing about National: they can\u2019t seem to differentiate between what is good for private business and what is good for the community and people. That makes it very hard for them because ultimately they think that rich people getting richer, profits being privatised and maximised\u2014that\u2019s what they\u2019re really here for; that\u2019s what they\u2019re here for. They like to say that it will benefit the community, but we know, we have decades of evidence, that that\u2019s not true, and I think the average person on the street knows that, that when the supermarkets are banking $1 million a day in excess profit, that\u2019s not good for people shopping at the supermarket. And when bus operators are making profits\u2014we don\u2019t even know their level of profit\u2014that means people aren\u2019t getting the best value for money out of that investment in public transport services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the way we can do public transport better is by enabling more public ownership, particularly of strategic assets, like bus depots. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s a single person on this side of the House that\u2019s been involved in public transport operations, but I can tell you that the strategic location of a bus depot makes it, effectively, a monopoly for one operator, the owner of that bus depot, when bidding for certain contracts, because it would take too long to try to run more buses to that area. Therefore, you don\u2019t actually get competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe whole idea of trying to get proper competition of what is a natural monopoly\u2014a public transport network\u2014flies in the face of any economic rationality. But, of course, we do know that the Hon Steven Joyce failed all his economic papers at university and got a degree in zoology, so I guess that\u2019s why he didn\u2019t grasp that concept, and also the concept that it\u2019s difficult to commercialise the benefits of investment in public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe people who benefit the most are not the people riding on those public transport services, it\u2019s not the people operating the public transport services; it is the people who are using the road, who have less congestion because every person on a bus takes up way less room than another car. The major thing that is making it difficult for people to drive around on our roads in cars and trucks is other people in cars. If those people in cars who want to take public transport\u2014and we know a whole bunch of them do\u2014if we provide a frequent, reliable, effective, and affordable service, they will take it, and they always have; they always have. Everywhere we\u2019ve invested in good public transport, like the Northern Busway, which the Green Party advocated for and the National Party opposed; like electrification of Auckland\u2019s rail network, which is how I joined the Green Party and campaigned for that massive success; like the City Rail Link, which I tried to convince the Hon Gerry Brownlee to invest in sooner, and he dragged his heels and eventually the National Government realised they had to do it, but it was five years too late\u2014all of that is successful investment in public transport that benefits everyone, including our climate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut we are not going to get better public transport through allowing private operators, like Infratil, who owned NZ Bus and flogged off the incredibly strategically important Kilbirnie bus depot, which was originally a public asset; they sold that off, they sold their bus operations to some overseas equities fund\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd35ed9067164fd8ba0c3129b627e568\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Who sold it to them? Labour, that\u2019s who.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283c01c7fb308439ab973ab463b2d3173\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: No; it was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275743b71c1544451be967a02dc815352\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: 1989; they did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075b7e7735294f0f8129be9a1e405cc8\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK. Therefore, the 1980s Labour Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291cc1dbe28bb471c922f3bba5012e98e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Get the history right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd71c06df0c485eb119cc1fb72919ef\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would that member please desist with the barrage of interjections, the Hon Gerry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee73a01d7b894211a4b12a9f01df9cc0\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I was just helping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214aa5842af414bc6a37d5594fa90a843\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5f4cd2504ab472381f9ca4f882f858e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214252313b5d94b56a43c74cbba3ca7b1\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: We can all agree that the 1980s and 1990s in New Zealand were a failed experiment in neoliberalism and the idea that the private sector is always better and that allowing private\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f4e2ee005b44d95a22235aaafd24001\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: No, ACT doesn\u2019t agree. No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b5263e971b49c19ebc4b2e57102ae6\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, the ACT Party doesn\u2019t agree with that. They\u2019re in denial about many things, including the reality and threat of climate change and of the failure of neoliberalism to deliver benefits to everyone. That\u2019s why Roger Douglas is denouncing the current ACT Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders want positive solutions. The reality is: investment in public transport for public good benefits everyone. It benefits the people who use that public transport, it connects our communities, it benefits business, it reduces the fiscal burden on households who have to own as many cars, and it enables more people to move at peak times. So enabling public ownership of strategic assets is long overdue, whether that\u2019s the vehicles themselves or bus depots. It will help us get more efficient services and provide better value to the community for our investment in public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why this bill is a very good bill. I\u2019m very sorry to hear that the National and ACT Parties won\u2019t be supporting it, but I do think it is a lesson for the people at home that if you vote for either of these two parties, you are not going to get practical transport solutions; you\u2019re going to get a failed ideology that cannot understand the concept of public investment for public good, of protecting our environment, our climate, and our health; to understand all of these things are interrelated and we can make better choices that will benefit us now and in the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0ac898723624a7f8e4edd581ad04b91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0ac898723624a7f8e4edd581ad04b91\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I love public transport. I think people who know me well know that it\u2019s pretty much all I talk about at the moment. Growing up, before I moved to Auckland, I used to ride my bike to school. Then I moved to Auckland and managed to live there for a few years without owning a car and the same in Wellington. It wasn\u2019t until I moved to wonderful, sunny Nelson that I actually started driving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAt that point, 15 years ago, I identified that we needed better public transport in Nelson, and so I\u2019m delighted that recently we\u2019ve just introduced 17 lovely electric buses, and I just want to acknowledge my predecessor, Nick Smith, who\u2019s seen the light. Nick actually has his bus licence, and I risked my life getting in the bus while he drove it. Apart from a quick little brake\u2014where he possibly stepped on the brake a bit too heavily\u2014we made it home in one piece, I\u2019m pleased to share.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is an excellent bill because it corrects a wrong with the Public Transport Operating Model that really led to the driving down of wages and conditions for bus drivers and the driving down of investment in public transport. The biggest thing that this bill does is it gives that flexibility around ownership and delivery and allows councils to actually be far more embedded in the delivery of public transport services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really pleased that we have put this bill in place, because in Nelson, we do have two councils that have oversight of public transport, and they\u2019re delivered by a fantastic local company called SBL; I acknowledge Tim Cumming and his team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it doesn\u2019t take away the opportunity to run our public transport system that way, but it allows for a lot more flexibility and really focuses on ensuring we\u2019re investing, rather than driving down costs and wages. It\u2019s a fantastic bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f988d1d1d48d45ce9c12740f9fdfa78b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f988d1d1d48d45ce9c12740f9fdfa78b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E This bill, I think, could be best described as an empty box wrapped up with Christmas paper: looks really good, and you can make wonderful speeches about how marvellous it is, but it fails to recognise the fact that it is totally back to the future. The speech before by the Green member, Julie Anne Genter, should have gone one year back from the history that she was attempting to quote and recognised that it was a Labour Government in 1989 that brought in the reorganisation of local government, and saw the end for numerous transport boards run by local authorities throughout New Zealand. Why did they do that? Because they were a hopelessly inefficient way of providing public transport. And now we have\u2014just these 30 years later where, you know, some changes might be useful\u2014a complete return to what was the norm in the 1980s. Quite unbelievable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EJulie Anne Genter talked about the \u201Cfailed ideology\u201D of ensuring that there is competition and efficiency in the delivery of services. Well, what is so failed about that concept? The reason why people don\u2019t use public transport in New Zealand in great numbers is because of the lack of reliability of those services. And now, we have a Government that is going to take away some of the requirements about that efficiency and replace it with this set of new requirements: new \u201Cprinciples\u201D, they call them. The first one is: \u201C[a] well-used public transport service reduce[s] \u2026 environmental health and health impacts of land transport, including by reducing reliance on single-occupant vehicles and using zero-emission technology\u201D. Everyone knows that; so why does that have to be a principle for the establishment of your public transport? It\u2019s a simple point, and no one is going to argue that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut when it comes down to looking at councils, again, owning bus services\u2014then I think there is a problem. And you\u2019d have to ask, why would we encourage local government to take their ratepayers\u2019 money to buy bus services that they already can control through the arrangements that exist right now? And that might have been a place to make some changes because, well, for all the vain hope in the world that it might be possible to get local government, both regional councils and district councils, to discuss these things, to sort out some good routes, etc., etc.,\u2014they don\u2019t do it now. There\u2019s nothing stopping them getting in a room to have a discussion about where those bus routes should go, but they don\u2019t do it. And I know in Christchurch it\u2019s a constant ache for people who want to use bus services, and the idea that we\u2019re going to now have perhaps the Environment Canterbury bus service, and all that investment by those companies who have provided bus services in the city for 30 years is suddenly just going to be set aside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThere is absolutely no gain to any consumer in this particular proposal; not one. There is a whole lot of feel-good stuff in here that ends up just making you wonder why on earth there was so much time invested in all of this. One of the principles here is: \u201Cregional councils, territorial authorities, and public transport operators should work together to provide co-ordinated public transport services and associated infrastructure necessary\u201D. Where is the provision in the law that says they must do it, and what is different about what they can do right now? So we\u2019re going from a \u201Ccan\u201D to a \u201Ccould\u201D, to a \u201Cmaybe\u201D and a \u201Cwould\u201D; and none of this is going to make a blind bit of difference to another person going to a bus stop tomorrow morning, next month, next year\u2014wherever\u2014if there isn\u2019t reliability in that service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo all this does is creates a whole lot more uncertainty. Why would any one of the current bus operators out there at the moment want to reinvest in their capital stock? Why would they want to buy better buses, why would they want to buy electric buses? What would be the reason for them investing all that extra cash when they know that at the drop of a hat, the local authority can turn around and say \u201CYou\u2019re out, we\u2019re taking it all over, it\u2019s all ours\u201D. The member from the Green Party used the term \u201Cideological approach\u201D. This is what this is, and it is a failed ideological approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022795d22c737a34ce99a861a6d7c02a933\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022795d22c737a34ce99a861a6d7c02a933\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just can\u2019t believe that in 2023 we have to explain to the other side why promoting our public transport in our country helps with our environmental and health outcomes. The absolute siloed thinking that we\u2019ve heard from the other side in terms of not recognising that some of the most successful economies in this world have great public transport. And the fact that we are having to look climate change straight in the face, and having to face all of the challenges that we will\u2014and we already have started to at the beginning of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe need a good public transport system that will sustain us into the future, that will help us with emission reduction, and that will make sure the wellbeing of all our people in Aotearoa New Zealand gets looked after. This bill enables it, that\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f13050775e88455491b9224b121ca2b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f13050775e88455491b9224b121ca2b6\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Fa\u2018afetai lava, Madam Speaker. It is a great honour to take an opportunity to take a brief call on the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill\u2019s second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI just want to, first of all, thank the Ministers, former and present, for their work on this bill, bringing it to the House, and also the awesome Transport and Infrastructure Committee that I got to be a part of this morning as well, led by Shanan Halbert and the team. Also, to the 54 organisations and individuals that presented their submissions during this process, I thank them for their contributions as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EAs part of the Government\u2019s commitment to improve public transport in Aotearoa, like we have heard from my colleagues, this is all strengthening employee welfare and improving environmental and health outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to public transport in Tak\u0101nini, we currently have two consultations happening at the moment. That is the Tak\u0101nini level crossings, in terms of improving the railway links and the buses that go through the network there and helping improve the efficiency for our passengers. The other one is the southern Frequent Transport Network Routes plan in order to provide the bus networks to get to those vital points in Tak\u0101nini to improve the service as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EThis bill does several things and I just want to comment on one of them: enabling innovation in the types of services that can be provided, and that\u2019s part of supporting the provision of on-demand public transport services. So in 2021 and 2022 we had Auckland Transport piloting a programme for on-demand services to our people. That was a success, with a couple of our local board chairs commenting on the efficiency that provided to our community members, and that has now been put in place permanently for our community. On-demand services\u2014in innovative ways, and providing those services for our community is the way to go. So I can commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6c2c71991744b30904f8ead14440735\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6c2c71991744b30904f8ead14440735\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Speaker. Here we are, still in urgency, debating the second reading of the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill. Although out in the real world it\u2019s Thursday afternoon, here in Parliament it\u2019s still Tuesday, and we\u2019ve been debating legislation under urgency. We went through until midnight last night and we started at 9 o\u2019clock this morning because the Government\u2019s shambolic legislative programme is in chaos. They\u2019re trying, in their dying days\u2014in the last, dying, desperate days of this Government\u2014to ram through a range of ideologically driven, \u201CWellington knows best\u201D legislative changes that surely, as my friend and colleague the Hon Gerry Brownlee noted a speech or two ago, is really nothing more than just back to the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd the reason things were changed, back 30 years ago, was because it wasn\u2019t working then and it won\u2019t work now. We have a crazy situation where this Government takes the approach, on so much of what they want to do\u2014in terms of their approach to legislation it\u2019s \u201CWellington knows best.\u201D Wellington knows best how to operate just about everything, in Labour\u2019s view of the world. And so here we are, this is a piece of legislation that kind of sounds warm and fuzzy, and if you don\u2019t look past the pleasant words and platitudes, it sounds kind of OK. But it\u2019s not until people dig into the detail of it that they will realise that what this piece of legislation does is, effectively, entirely screw private sector public service providers from doing what they do well\u2014what they do best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI come from the Coromandel and we don\u2019t have a lot of public transport in the Coromandel. In fact, we\u2019ve got a little ferry that goes across the Whitianga Harbour, we\u2019ve got a minibus or two that do a little circuit around Thames, and that\u2019s about it. There are no trains. We don\u2019t have any bus services to speak of. In fact, any that we have that come from the InterCity services, and what have you, have been diminished or reduced. Our roads are continually under threat and are fragile, and the main highway is still closed. So our local government operators in the Coromandel find that this will mean nothing to them. It will mean absolutely nothing to them, but across the country, the potential for screwing the marketplace is very high indeed. So what we\u2019ve got here is more central planning and control of public services by a Government that wants to just foist its ideological approach on the marketplace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EA year or so ago I visited the very nice city of Timaru, and I was pleasantly surprised and amazed to see that they have developed a trial system of something that they call \u201CMyWay on-demand\u201D. Now, in Timaru it used to be that the council contract had arranged for buses to travel on a circuit on a schedule that just literally drove round and round Timaru every day, all day. The vast majority of those buses that travelled on that predetermined schedule of the old type meant that more often than not the buses were either empty or had very few passengers in them. It wasn\u2019t a particularly efficient system. So the Timaru MyWay model actually is quite exciting; it\u2019s an on-demand system that allows people to literally use an app, use technology, use modern innovations, to call up a public transport provider and essentially not use a scheduled programme, repeat cycle, old-fashioned bus schedule, and it seems to be from all accounts working very well. Now, this is currently a model that, as I understand it, is run under the auspices of the council. But if we follow it to its logical conclusion, it effectively could become sort of like an Uber bus service. And there\u2019s no reason why private commercial operators shouldn\u2019t and couldn\u2019t operate something like that that\u2019s innovative, that\u2019s smart, that\u2019s modern, that\u2019s intelligent and, more importantly, efficient and effective in terms of ratepayer investment but is also a really good service for the people who want to use it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd so here we have a political party that\u2019s determined to take us back to the future, and the future\u2019s not good. The future is looking pretty jolly bleak. There were very good reasons that changes were made to allow the Public Service provision of transport to be contracted out on a transparent, fair, competitive basis to private sector providers. This legislation would change all that, and I want to make it clear that under a re-elected National-led Government that isn\u2019t far away, we\u2019ll ensure that public transport operators continue to be funded in a transparent way with the market-based approach to delivery of public transport operations that has been working so successfully until now\u2014until this Government actually wants to meddle with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe in the National Party support public transport. We are very big supporters of public transport, but we don\u2019t want to have a position that is going to be able to, effectively, as the Hon Gerry Brownlee pointed out, put at risk the capital and the investment potential of private sector operators. Because as Gerry Brownlee so correctly and aptly pointed out, why would a private bus investor, a private bus supplier, a transport supplier, invest the hundreds of thousands of dollars required to buy just one modern, electric, low-carbon, climate-friendly bus when they know that there is a potential for the council, maybe just by dint of a changed political philosophy in that council, suddenly saying, \u201COh no, no, no, we\u2019re not going to use your services anymore, we\u2019re gonna take it on.\u201D It\u2019s kind of like going back to the old days of the Ministry of Works or something, just literally operating everything from the centre. And so the risk to those investors or those businesses is that they simply won\u2019t invest, they simply won\u2019t allocate capital and that will mean that we end up having a transport fleet, a bus fleet, that is old, that is not particularly carbon friendly, that is not particularly climate efficient and is not modern. And that actually will be a long-term net negative, not only to the people who travel on those buses and those services, but it will be a net negative to the long-suffering ratepayers who ultimately have to fund those inefficient services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd I just don\u2019t know how it could possibly be that in today\u2019s age a bill like this could actually get past a Labour Party caucus to get into the Parliament. Now, I notice that the bill is in the name of the Hon David Parker, and people listening on their wirelesses and on their televisions, maybe, to this debate today, will know that David Parker is a very new Minister of Transport, and I\u2019m not sure that David Parker probably really has his heart in this legislation because, you know, he\u2019s a clever one. He\u2019s one of the performers in the current Government. He\u2019s the one that actually gets to do all the heavy lifting and all the hard jobs, and, in fairness to him, he\u2019s had a very high work rate. Much of the work has been questionable but you can\u2019t deny that he\u2019s had a high work rate. So he\u2019s picked up this transport portfolio from his predecessor the Hon Michael Wood. Now, what we know about the difference between Michael Wood and David Parker is that Michael Wood was hell-bent on an ideological approach to transport\u2014an ideological approach to transport throughout the nation that saw little done but lots announced. And this is a bill that very much fits into that mode. This is a bill that is more about grand gestures and words that will have a negative effect. But it plays deliberately to an ideological approach\u2014a certain sector of the political marketplace that I don\u2019t think understands the reality of how commercial operators work. And that\u2019s one of the problems that the Labour Party have; that they really don\u2019t understand it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we know is that Labour have only three approaches to policy: make it compulsory, ban it, or tax it, and if they are in doubt they just tax it more. Well, this is a bill that fits classically into those three criteria: big on grand gesture, light on detail, and with a perverse outcome that will impact negatively not only on ratepayers but also on public transport users. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u00220366699b7ff8457bb2c58c1b3639b7f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220366699b7ff8457bb2c58c1b3639b7f0\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill. I am a proud Wellingtonian who takes pride in taking public transport every day, as much as I can, from home to work, and vice versa, and so do thousands of Wellingtonians who take public transport every day. A bill that\u2019s discussing good environmental outcomes and also the health and wellbeing of New Zealanders is, all of a sudden, taking us back to the past, and the cynicism and the negativity from members of the Opposition is just mind blowing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EClimate change is getting worse. It\u2019s serious; it needs to be dealt with. Some of the ways to do that is by decarbonising our public transport. Having efficient, reliable public transport is a good way to do that, as well, because we have to make sure that we\u2019re giving people an option to actually get out of their cars and get on to public transport. This bill is part of the Government\u2019s commitment to improve public transport in Aotearoa New Zealand, to strengthen employee welfare, and to improve environmental and health outcomes. This is the core aim of this bill. It does this by establishing new governing principles, creating greater flexibility around asset ownership and service provision models.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003ETo me, this bill is another milestone in the Government\u2019s emissions reduction plan: the establishment of the new sustainable public transport framework that is going to replace the Public Transport Operating Model. This is a good bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0fec29027f94fc3be0e002fc65a46c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0fec29027f94fc3be0e002fc65a46c4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221f37d30240434abdb2346b8c8f072869\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002232174ddf117041ecacec90f5d9449c23\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000349\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002257930cb664b34364aa528d8ce3b5af7d\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f814a2aca66c4f1aab56afa40e04659d\u0022\u003ETaxation Principles Reporting Bill\u2014National and ACT Party Votes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002215ffaf1301fb425d8948c4ce40b2b46f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215ffaf1301fb425d8948c4ce40b2b46f\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek leave for it to be recorded in the Journals of the House of Representatives that National and ACT would have cast a party vote against the second reading of the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill if such a vote had been held.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3e51a7c47574757a8dadf1a5b958e21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3e51a7c47574757a8dadf1a5b958e21\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is being sought for it to be recorded in the Journals of the House of Representatives that National and ACT would have cast a party vote against the second reading of the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill if such a vote had been heard. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226824803160424ba899868faf3892e36d\u0022\u003ESale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad5829977a474856ad81f15c458624ed\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000356\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 3 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00225a1dc157fbd04174b625d0916431f706\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a1dc157fbd04174b625d0916431f706\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s something that I noticed in my own community\u2014that these local alcohol plans were actually just not being adhered to, because you had a real disparity of power, and you had big supermarkets and big lobby groups with lots of power up against the community. That really was causing issues, and it has undermined the purpose of having a local alcohol plan. So it\u2019s a pleasure to see this bill come through and streamline that process and give power back to those communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI can say that I know of a case in Auckland where people spent over a million dollars just trying to do what they needed to in their community, and that\u2019s just in legal fees. That case remains before our Supreme Court. It\u2019s just not a sustainable position, and I\u2019m proud of the Labour Party for noticing that\u2014for making sure that it really takes account of the realities of economic power\u2014and has amended the law accordingly. I\u2019m pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022 data-id=\u0022c829956da5c043da90b0a959fe6227ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c829956da5c043da90b0a959fe6227ba\u0022\u003ESORAYA PEKE-MASON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. This bill gives power back to the community concerning alcohol licensing. I love that this bill considers the aspirations of the people and not those of corporate and power positions who clearly care about the bottom lines. So I welcome the bill. It\u2019s important communities have a say in what happens in their backyard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EAlcohol consumed sensibly is a lot of fun. Alcohol consumed excessively is dangerous and a scourge on society. I just want to share some research by Rose Crossin et al.: the aim of the study is \u201Cto evaluate and rank drug harms \u2026 using a [multi-critical] decision analysis (MCDA) framework, and \u2026 separately consider harm within the total population, and among youth.\u201D The results: \u201CWhen considering overall harm \u2026 results indicated \u2026 alcohol, methamphetamine and synthetic cannabinoids were the most harmful to both \u2026 overall population and \u2026 youth, followed by tobacco in \u2026 total population. Alcohol remained the most harmful drug for the total population when separately considering harm to those who use it, and harm to others.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI want to support this bill wholeheartedly. The current law clearly does not work in the best interests and as was intended, so this bill gives mana motuhake back to the communities. I commend this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00222b180d72a1154a96a6d1857e4c4db887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b180d72a1154a96a6d1857e4c4db887\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. The National Party is not supporting this bill. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s a good response to what are some genuine issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ECommunities in New Zealand, obviously, have the right and should have a say in how alcohol is sold in their communities, and that\u2019s why we have these processes established in legislation to enable that to happen. But this bill has gone about it the wrong way to try to deal with what is a real issue\u2014and there is a real issue in that it can take too long for the appeals process to wind their way through the system, and for decisions to be held and the costs associated with that. But this bill has approached it in the wrong way, and it\u2019s probably going to have some pretty unintended consequences, which aren\u2019t good at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIt reminds me a little bit of that old saying that \u201CThe path to hell is paved with good intentions\u201D. Sometimes you might be wanting to do the right thing, but you end up achieving completely the opposite outcome, which I think this bill will do, and I will just touch on a couple of points about why that is. This will allow any person or group to object to a new or renewed licence application, except for trade competitors where the objection relates to trade competition. So that means that an application in, say, Queenstown or in Gore could be objected to by people living in Auckland or Northland, or an application in Tauranga could be objected to by someone living in Nelson, and that really begs the question of how this is helping local communities have a say in where alcohol is sold in their communities. It\u2019s just got it, frankly, quite wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis also removes, effectively, appeal rights. The idea here is, obviously, to try and address the issue of these appeals taking too long and costing too much, but completely removing any appeal right is frankly, in my view, bizarre. There should always be an option and an opportunity for affected persons to appeal against a decision made against them, and to completely remove that, I think, misunderstands the way our justice system works and the way that we resolve disputes in our communities. Frankly, it\u2019s just not good law and it\u2019s not good rule of law to remove those appeal rights, so I find that quite extraordinary, actually, that that\u2019s the process to be taken in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that this bill allows parties or their representatives to question other parties or witnesses of other parties, but it does not permit cross-examination. Now, having spent many years working in courts all across New Zealand from the top to the bottom of the North Island and the South Island, I can say that it\u2019s critical to allow cross-examination of witnesses, because witnesses have a tendency, consciously or unconsciously, and parties have a tendency, consciously or unconsciously, to advance their own best interests, and it\u2019s only through the process of cross-examination that it\u2019s actually possible to bring to the surface other facts and other issues that they don\u2019t necessarily want to, or haven\u2019t thought of alerting the decision maker to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s actually really important for the decision maker or makers to understand so that they can make the right decision. So to completely remove the ability for a cross-examination takes away that key, fundamental cornerstone of our justice system\u2014and it\u2019s a system that we\u2019ve established over many, many hundreds of years\u2014to bring to the surface the best facts available so that the decision maker or makers can make the best decision based on the information available to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo that, again, just completely misunderstands things. This doesn\u2019t go as far as it, but I just think of the best intentions in judicial processes that have been done in the past, and this is obviously not the same, but I\u2019ll just touch on the historical example of the Star Chamber, which is probably well-known to those who have a legal interest. That court was originally established many hundreds of years ago in England to ensure the fair enforcement of laws against socially and politically prominent people whom ordinary courts would hesitate to convict. But the way it developed\u2014despite that good intention\u2014was that it became known, and it is still known well to those who have a legal interest, as a court that had strict, arbitrary rulings as due process rights were ignored. It went as far as even having secretive proceedings, and it became synonymous with social and political repression through the arbitrary use and abuse of the power that it wielded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis is not to that degree, but this, unfortunately, does have some similarities in that it removes the appeal rights, it removes the ability for cross-examination, and, ironically, it enables anyone from anywhere in the country to make a submission on a local application or renewal of a whole licensing application. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ELike I said at the beginning, there is certainly a case, and an appropriate case, to be made, and communities should have a say on the way that alcohol is sold, etc., in their community. But we need to be careful, and I think of the history in my own region, where between 1902 and 1957, the Gore District was under strict prohibition. No alcohol at all could be sold between 1902 and 1957, so it was a very, very long period of time. What is also well-known in my region is that the Hokonui Hills behind Gore became alive with stills, where illegal alcohol was brewed merrily and sold without any kind of oversight or control around the district. People were happily accessing alcohol between 1902 and 1957, but the Government had no oversight and no control. The community\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c21b25447e4247da95029448442fd98b\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s like the King Country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e504101bc5d749a288cefde1bdf42782\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague the Hon Judith Collins says it\u2019s like in the King Country\u2014the same thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo the Government might come in and say, \u201CAll right, we\u2019re going to just stop things.\u201D, but it has to be workable. It has to have an opportunity for people to be heard and to have their say and for the best facts to be provided to the decision maker, and it needs to be so that local communities are making submissions for their community, rather than people all around the country, which simply doesn\u2019t make sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWell, I should just do a shout-out when I\u2019m talking about Gore and Hokonui. The Hokonui Moonshine Museum in Gore is a fantastic place. It tells the history of prohibition and what led to it and what happened during those merry 50-plus years when the moonshine stills were up in the mountains of the Hokonui Hills, where the water was being used to make liqueur and other alcohol around the region. In fact, you can buy some responsibly brewed and sold whisky there, which is actually extremely good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo look, with that, I\u2019ll say that the intention in this bill is certainly good but the execution is not. It is bad and it\u2019s not good due process. It won\u2019t lead to good decisions, and, fundamentally, that\u2019s what this House should be focused on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d645188dffa64daeb5b26ae6d0a6e593\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d645188dffa64daeb5b26ae6d0a6e593\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the Government has indicated that it no longer wishes to continue with urgency. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.47 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230815b78983a874cb4df18c9c1d2f73a58afe000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"