"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1a81e09ca4c4bc580de6d7e964f0261\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002277a907bd321c4ea3be365f492d467872\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002289ff0d636cfd4578993fc2ae354c6adf\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e32782aa01174b3f9b056449cef5a597\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002218bed57ea49843c6bed90e165b3b7541\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218bed57ea49843c6bed90e165b3b7541\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c2b991b54c64f1c9537befcc8ee0fac\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5733699e46441c38f98c8b56d4acc80\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00229c4c015c83ed4edbbe21bad18c7a782d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c4c015c83ed4edbbe21bad18c7a782d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00225127dc12d465438dac10eaf3cb5e3cf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225127dc12d465438dac10eaf3cb5e3cf7\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Paul Fisher requesting that the House urge the Government to review Waka Kotahi\u2019s proposed safety improvements to State Highway 1 Timaru to St Andrews.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0e1611adaea45aabc5ea348a4bdf968\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0e1611adaea45aabc5ea348a4bdf968\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002277abf6f475b546f68a2b7c2093a552a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277abf6f475b546f68a2b7c2093a552a3\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-23 annual report of the Remuneration Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EInternational Labour Organization report of the New Zealand Government Delegates to the 111th Session of the International Labour Conference, Geneva, 5\u00A0to 16 June 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023 to 2027 statements of intent for the Broadcasting Standards Authority, Radio New Zealand Ltd, Television New Zealand Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-24 statements of performance expectations: Broadcasting Standards Authority, New Zealand on Air, Radio New Zealand Ltd, and Television New Zealand Ltd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6ae052093f04df9a8aec115b5468031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6ae052093f04df9a8aec115b5468031\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcf0f42629164a389fbc4b05ffa41030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcf0f42629164a389fbc4b05ffa41030\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the international treaty examination of the Agreement between New Zealand and the EU on the Participation of New Zealand in Union Programmes and the Protocol on the Association of New Zealand to Horizon Europe\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Environment Committee on the briefing on reducing construction and demolition waste going to landfill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the inquiry into illegal, unregulated, and unreported fishing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Governance and Administration Committee on the briefing about the select committee exchange to Australia\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ebriefing on trends in youth crime\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetitions of Christine McCarthy, Diane Hunt, and Lois McGirr\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Akhtar Zaman and Kirstin Murray\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Primary Production Committee on the inquiry into the future of the workforce needs of the primary industries of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the briefing about orders made under section\u00A070 of the Health Act 1956\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the Ministry for Pacific Peoples, Long-Term Insights Briefing 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f528326a3edb454b99dff18c2d79088c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f528326a3edb454b99dff18c2d79088c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The reports of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee; the Environment Committee; the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee; the Governance and Administration Committee; the Primary Production Committee; the Regulations Review Committee; and the Social Services and Community Committee\u2019s and the Justice Committee\u2019s briefings are all set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7c45eefeb3247ee9d74ac78d3e38665\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7c45eefeb3247ee9d74ac78d3e38665\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EResidential Property Managers Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EHauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ERam Raid Offending and Related Measures Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVictims of Family Violence (Strengthening Legal Protections) Legislation Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3c1e03893bf4d54add086bf81082cb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3c1e03893bf4d54add086bf81082cb2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b77e8ae02c174c15a7f9d6d611e34817\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022629e053b35a74360a8a3037c867b347a\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227719ffc9ee1a48d08d3bde0596a81f9e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u002262aef26b53d54fd2bddd280911c10407\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262aef26b53d54fd2bddd280911c10407\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2018A (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: How is the Government\u2019s record public housing build programme supporting more people into trades training and apprenticeships? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4cd30a6178742778a9211422eed557e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4cd30a6178742778a9211422eed557e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Our Labour Government has delivered more than 13,000 new public homes in the last six years, with a further 6,000 new homes under construction or contracted. Our record of delivery has not only provided more homes for New Zealanders but training opportunities, too. Since 2017, more than 850 people across the country have gained valuable construction skills through K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s apprenticeship programme, which helps to reduce our skills shortages and train the next generation of our construction workforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e166a0d27a044adbb15b865f4eed137e\u0022\u003EAnahila Kanongata\u2018a\u003C/span\u003E: How are the apprenticeship programmes supporting more women, M\u0101ori, and Pasifika into work? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2606d2da23b40a08e3a69efee84e958\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in order to ensure our construction sector can deliver on our Government\u2019s significant infrastructure programme, we need to grow the diversity of our construction workforce. Through the K\u0101inga Ora apprenticeship programme, we\u2019re actively seeking to recruit women, M\u0101ori, and Pasifika, as well as K\u0101inga Ora tenants, into apprenticeships. Over 40 percent of the over 850 apprentices, to date, have been M\u0101ori and Pacific, and I\u2019m delighted to say 53 of the apprentices have been women. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c6aa1a4c1884ce592d13f2d962a37b4\u0022\u003EAnahila Kanongata\u2018a\u003C/span\u003E: What regions are benefiting from encouraging young people into the building and construction sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1cc285c2eb74c8c8cb370d110b78184\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s partnerships with schools are helping to train the next generation of tradies all across the country. K\u0101inga Ora has eight partnerships with schools and polytechs, and it has five more currently being worked on. Communities across New Zealand are benefiting from this programme, including Dargaville, Onehunga, Rotorua, Hastings, \u014Cp\u014Dtiki, Wellington, Nelson, and, of course, Christchurch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb317cab73394e7ea033d105a6fcd08d\u0022\u003EAnahila Kanongata\u2018a\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s sustained and consistent investment in public housing continue to support the training of apprentices? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226b6bed3b58a491385aa14898a200665\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: In Budget 2023, we continued our Government\u2019s commitment to delivering public homes through our record build programme. This means more public homes and more apprenticeships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a87a78ecd41e4e96b8648d4e9cd3f088\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022afe44018007f44269b843a0377874236\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afe44018007f44269b843a0377874236\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002241fc2345e5534f078e65e5ec29f251fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241fc2345e5534f078e65e5ec29f251fd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the removal of the $5 prescription charge, which has seen 900,000 New Zealanders receive almost 3 million free prescriptions. Alongside extending 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education, extending targeted childcare assistance, making public transport permanently free for children under the age of 13 and half-price for more than a million people, removing prescription charges is a practical measure to support families with economic pressures whilst laying the foundations for a better future for the country\u2014without making inflation worse, as unfunded tax cuts for the wealthiest would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db79e338966b4ac68fa4c62f47e6621d\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister seriously saying that he and I should get free prescriptions, rather than giving Kiwis battling cancer access to drugs that are available in Australia but not here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206791f9d868b4e27b76a3f559a23c5fe\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No; on this side of the House, we would prioritise extra drugs for cancer patients ahead of tax cuts that would, for example, mean that somebody on a salary of $1\u00A0million a year would get over $50,000 a year extra in a tax cut. We actually think that funding Pharmac, along with our health system, our education system, housing, transport, and the other public services New Zealanders rely on is more important than tax cuts for millionaires.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022961356273a4c45fa8525b3b2cae68ba3\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why is New Zealand the only country in the Asia-Pacific region in recession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022921f2f74a63b4c12aa45ea1e70779fe7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Because we had a cyclone at the beginning of the year. The member may not have noticed, but actually the contributing factor to the fact that we had a technical recession was the effect of the cyclone on our primary producers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3f2b3c4718a4577b5e26e58078a83a5\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, is inflation in New Zealand twice the rate of the US, Canada, and Japan, if inflation is all just a global problem\u2014because they had weather events too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022030a503b5a264365bf5d61a9ba508b19\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I notice he left Australia and the UK off. At any given point in time, New Zealand\u2019s inflation rate won\u2019t be exactly the same as others around the world. I\u2019m sure, given his in-depth knowledge of the economy, he would understand that. Australia, of course, were lower than New Zealand for a long period of time and then peaked higher and later than New Zealand in their inflationary cycle. Different countries have a different economic cycle. There can be no doubt, other than in the separate reality the National Party live in, that inflation has been a global problem over the last 18 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224096a67b24c743ae9f2209ef35a8b411\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was Westpac right when they forecast $15 billion more in debt in the next four years, and does he take any responsibility for the explosion in debt and deficits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e76b7c082534712ac7f7ae6845a9024\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Most economists are now picking that Government revenue will decrease, rather than significant increases in Government spending. That will have an impact on the Government\u2019s finances. Everybody will be able to see what impact that will have on the Government\u2019s finances when the Treasury release their pre-election fiscal update, which will be available to everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5d357368bb04904ac7479301c94b103\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Given, and by his account, the economy is doing great, why are there 55,000 more people on the job seeker benefit than when Labour took office, including 8,000 more in just the last four months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ca992f8cbc245bf92eb732afcc6879a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There are more people in New Zealand\u2014that is absolutely correct. The New Zealand economy\u2019s fundamental indicators are looking more positive. Inflation is trending down, GDP growth is returning, and we continue to have record low unemployment. On this side of the House, we are unapologetic about our commitment to keep Kiwis in jobs. I note that\u2019s quite a contrast to members on the other side of the House, who are being quite open in their intention to increase unemployment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226640a500e8474717809612c09e648a94\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, if everything is so swimmingly great, are there 55,000 more people on job seeker benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcad837206374ee9901df9962f7c5eb3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve indicated, the population is, of course, larger, but we should also note that there are more people in the labour market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6346755c606466f92ec4f3ab818af1c\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How is it possible that Government spending has increased by 70 percent over six years for no measurable improvements in outcomes, with 70 percent of New Zealanders saying the health system is worse than in 2020, 64 percent saying the justice system is worse than in 2020, and 57 percent saying the education system is worse too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2842ff45a84e219a5b2dc04eb5a757\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I am so glad that the member asked that question, because while he doesn\u2019t think that it\u2019s a positive outcome that New Zealanders\u2019 wages are rising, we believe that is a positive outcome, on this side of the House. We believe the fact that more New Zealanders are in work than ever before is, in fact, a positive outcome. We believe that New Zealanders having better access to healthcare, such as the 3 million free prescriptions that New Zealanders have received, is a positive outcome. We believe that 77,000 fewer New Zealand children living in poverty is a positive outcome. We believe that record levels of renewable energy generation in New Zealand is a positive outcome. We believe that reducing New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions is a positive outcome. We believe that extending the coverage of free-trade agreements to cover more of New Zealand exports is a positive outcome. We believe that more New Zealanders in apprenticeships, upskilling for the future of our workforce, is a positive outcome. We believe that building more classrooms to accommodate roll growth so that kids aren\u2019t learning in hallways, libraries, and gymnasiums, as they were when we came into Government\u2014we believe that\u2019s a positive outcome. We believe that building more State houses than any Government since the 1950s is a positive outcome. I could go on for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220210b7c9e6c240828c54b4be8ba588fc\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Could it be the case that the Prime Minister just talks far too much because he has those beliefs but the public, including Labour voters, don\u2019t share them and are now abandoning his Government in droves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dcfe82fd8ab465ab762a6ef45c3a43a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I would say that the election campaign\u2019s just getting under way, and I\u2019m looking forward to meeting the member and the members opposite on the campaign trail. When even his own coalition partner calls him divisive, I think maybe he should take a little bit of a look in the mirror.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d6e731d19c941fd9d172c40dd1d32e0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does that mean the Prime Minister is looking forward to a campaign running on fear of the Opposition\u2019s record in future because he\u2019s given up running on his own; and if that\u2019s the case, does he understand that hope always beats fear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224152df90703a4ecebbc3f0e0ee26093f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, first of all, if the member actually has a record of the future, he should share it, because I didn\u2019t know that it was possible to have such a thing. But when it comes to campaigning on fear, I would again invite the member to take a long, hard look in the mirror and consider the way he is trying to demonise a large segment of New Zealand society\u2014a segment of New Zealand society that have too often been kicked around for political benefit by members who sit on that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281220dc1dd624240810a66476ee773dc\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it a vote of no confidence in his Government that after six years of running health and education and the economy into the ground, almost 35,000 Kiwis have voted with their feet and left New Zealand over the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f7d990918ee4c77a73b42d17d62bdd4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: An 87,000 net migration to New Zealand\u2014the population is growing in New Zealand. Yes, post-COVID, some people left and some people came back. Overall, 87,000 more people are in the country now since we\u2019ve opened the borders than there were before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e193738d7c874af6ab1872ee065185fe\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002234840a0db6504a58a39061e3733ab1d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234840a0db6504a58a39061e3733ab1d4\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: What advice or reports, if any, has he received regarding the rising threat of white supremacy in Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00225b2e3636ec204566bb0ca6f1b0faa524\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b2e3636ec204566bb0ca6f1b0faa524\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Since becoming the Prime Minister and Minister for National Security and Intelligence, I have not received any reports or advice solely about the rising threat of white supremacy in Aotearoa New Zealand. I receive regular classified reporting on counterterrorism, including on violent extremism, which I\u2019m not in a position to detail in the House. However, I note that the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service released the New Zealand\u2019s Security Threat Environment Report 2023 on 11 August 2023. That report covered a range of security threats facing our country, and it stated that \u201CWhite Identity-Motivated Violent Extremism (WIMVE) continues to be the dominant IMVE ideology in New Zealand. Young people becoming [more] involved in W-IMVE is a growing trend. W-IMVE adherents in New Zealand express views, which include but are not limited to, rhetoric relating to anti-Semitism, anti-Rainbow Communities and various white supremacy narratives, such as anti-M\u0101ori and anti-Islam.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db85c389d44945a2ac7d1ff7fcbb2675\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the use of divisive rhetoric or hate speech from political leaders\u2014whether they are joking or not\u2014can lead to violence against marginalised communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fec28f29d9b448398ea8532041648e34\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that all political leaders have a responsibility to take care in the statements that they make about all of New Zealand\u2019s citizens and groups, and we have a particular duty of care to ensure that the statements we make don\u2019t inflame tensions, such as those I have just mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221143a5a7d3b1465184fa11bd1ec4b77e\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What is he doing to protect people\u2019s ministries from acts of violence due to political incitement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289a17f55c2f54c6cba4d881eccdce3c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, our public servants deserve our full support. They do not deserve to be demonised in the way that they have been. I don\u2019t believe that making jokes about blowing people up is a particularly funny or responsible thing for political leaders to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a03c4e34fc884b27930f99ea3217ab7a\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe the ACT Party leader\u2019s comments regarding the Ministry for Pacific Peoples\u2014that he would send a guy called Guy Fawkes in there and it would all be over\u2014have the potential to incite violence against Pacific people and the ministry itself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45ca83b5cd2489cbdea9d33bab12c91\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I have indicated, I believe that political leaders all have a responsibility to be careful in the language that they use. I don\u2019t think that making statements about blowing people up\u2014even if they were, poorly, intended in humour\u2014is the sort of thing that responsible political leaders should do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1ef23ef2d0e49ca9753af13a9c0dbd3\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government, under his leadership, back down from passing legislation to protect marginalised communities from hate speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239ff94df001c44099d56aac19e1bae4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There are issues\u2014legitimate questions\u2014being raised around hate speech. It is a very fraught area because it does intersect with issues around free speech. That is why we have asked the Law Commission to do more work in that space, because we do acknowledge that there are pressing interests amongst the community for more action in this area but there are also countervailing concerns around the rights to free speech. We think that the Law Commission will be able to produce some recommendations that I hope we as a Parliament as a whole can actually debate in a constructive manner. I think that\u2019s more likely after an election than immediately before an election, but I do think the issues that are being raised here should be taken seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333c8383defe4879af4f271d947de35d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister then stand by the factually incorrect statement he made to Newshub on Saturday \u201CThe idea that you\u2019d make a joke about blowing up an ethic minority is something that isn\u2019t really that funny\u201D, and, if he does not stand by that statement, will he apologise for confusing Government waste and a story about a Government department with a race of people, turning a debate into something it never needed to be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227be2f2abdb7d45799a580dcfab25339a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, because, as I have also said publicly, I believe that member is deliberately and wantonly playing the race card in this election, and he should be ashamed of himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227db9e3b6e69b481b93b387ee78e5cf12\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e39af9f918fa4c8087ac1aa5cf65b8e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e39af9f918fa4c8087ac1aa5cf65b8e2\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with Westpac\u2019s view of the outlook for the New Zealand economy as being \u201Celevated persistent inflation, an over-heated economy set for a prolonged period of low and below trend growth, a high fiscal deficit in cyclically adjusted terms and an elevated current account deficit\u201D, and what responsibility, if any, does he take for this economic outlook?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00228ef20fe0910142c3b235e9205f6fc3c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ef20fe0910142c3b235e9205f6fc3c0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first four parts of the question, inflation is coming down and is forecast to be back within the target range in the September\u00A02024 quarter\u2014a fact I know the member is aware of after last week. We\u2019ve reached a turning point in the cycle and, as forecast by Westpac, the economy is set to grow over the next few years against a tough global backdrop. The average operating balance before gains and losses deficit as a percentage of GDP under this Government has been lower per year than under National during the financial crisis, and the current account deficit is forecast by Westpac to keep closing. While our net international liability position is at 48.4 percent, it is lower than the 53.4 percent we inherited in 2017, and well down on the 84.3 percent of GDP it hit in 2009. In answer to the fifth part of the question, this is undoubtedly a challenging time for Kiwi households and businesses. I take responsibility for supporting them as we have done and will do into the future\u2014including nearly record-low unemployment, wages growing faster than inflation, lower Government debt than the countries we compare ourselves against, and New Zealand being one of the few countries in the world which received a credit rating upgrade during the one-in-100-year COVID economic shock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5ccf21182f34c06b915fccd038f2661\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Who does he agree with: the Prime Minister, who this morning said, \u201CWe are turning a corner [economically]\u201D\u2014or the BNZ, who said, \u201CThe wheels are starting to well and truly fall off the New Zealand economy\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221db6d76dadc34d2ca7b6ba93f3d0df6e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I obviously agree with the Prime Minister, who, in turn, is agreeing with ASB, who had the headline on their story: \u201CA turning point for the economy is coming.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022461ddf1b1d9c4944958362f5d6ef3ed4\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Who was correct: the Prime Minister, who said this morning \u201C[We\u2019re seeing] inflation coming down\u201D, or the BNZ, who said last week, \u201CInflation refuses to die. In fact, inflation has recently accelerated [driven by] local body rates, an excise tax hike, insurance costs and rapidly rising petrol prices.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261aa018e19814533947026e9e9974fa7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I, of course, agree with the Prime Minister, who, in turn, interestingly enough, agrees with Westpac\u2014who were used in the member\u2019s primary question but dropped for the supplementary question\u2014because they also noted that inflation is coming down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722571048a15408b803e332064b177d0\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Who was correct: the Prime Minister, who said \u201C[We\u2019re seeing] GDP growth returning\u201D, or the ANZ, who said \u201Cthe economy is slowing, the export outlook is challenged, and unemployment is set to rise\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d4353054834f609b03bf65f001c160\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I thank the member for serving up another lob to me. I agree with the Prime Minister and, funnily enough, Westpac\u2014the primary question subject for the member\u2014who also see economic growth in our future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022113b512bcc944df2a44153ceb323d472\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is it really the Minister of Finance\u2019s position that everything is looking so rosy with the economy, and, if that is the case, can we expect the pre-election fiscal update to reflect that rosiness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229831d8be88454ca3b9c27097327ccd40\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have stood in this House day after day indicating that we understand, on this side of the House, that times are tough for many New Zealand businesses and many New Zealand households. The global economy is slowing, and it is a very challenging period. What that requires in response is a balanced approach that looks after New Zealanders, eases the cost of living pressure, puts public services back on the footing that it needs to be on, but does not engage in unfunded tax cuts that will ultimately be more inflationary and put more pressure on those Kiwi households. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d190c951d014667bfecc7ea0e46d434\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Finance recall in May last year describing inflation as a \u201Cshort term challenge\u201D, and given the cost of living crisis has now entered its 27th month, why should New Zealanders trust either his or the Prime Minister\u2019s promises that everything will be better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297722093249d4746964090fa5d3c49c2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: At all times, we have stood up in this House and talked about the forecasts that we have seen from the likes of the Treasury, the likes of the Reserve Bank, and, indeed, the retail banks that the member has been quoting today. Inflation is coming down in the eyes of all of those people, and while it is a very tough time for many New Zealand households, we know that what households need is a Government that supports them to ease the cost of living pressure while balancing that against providing public services, not a party that has unfunded tax cuts to the tune of billions of dollars and no way of making it add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c2ce1fc3f204c92a16931a21ea078b2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u00227575a5b1db784d9fac24308bc44eb374\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227575a5b1db784d9fac24308bc44eb374\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What action is the Government taking to ensure the teaching of maths, reading, and writing is consistent across the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00225e44a0ba43a14562b677e1ed20c1eb65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e44a0ba43a14562b677e1ed20c1eb65\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has announced that we will regulate core teaching requirements of maths, reading, and writing to guarantee foundational teaching and learning of these subjects. This is work that has long been in the pipeline, having first been outlined to the sector and wider public in March last year in the Government\u2019s maths and literacy strategy. Core teaching requirements have been welcomed by the sector and experts as it will deliver clear and consistent education from Kait\u0101ia to Invercargill. Therefore, the Government has opted to embed this into legislation so that no learning is left to chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee47312671ff435585a18077061c04c2\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: How will parents, teachers, and students know whether they are progressing in the new maths and literacy curriculum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b28b071ba58477ca9edd7157fa105fe\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Every subject in the new curriculum will have maths and literacy progress steps to ensure maths and literacy learning is embedded and contextualised within teaching practice. Progress steps will also enable teachers to track a child\u2019s progression over their education and identify where further support may be needed to move to the next step. Parents and students will have visibility of this progression plan and have confidence that their child is well supported to progress in their maths, reading, and writing skills in a way that suits them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a783e0526f864d62929259662708af64\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: How will teachers be supported to implement the core teaching requirements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022069cc9a579aa4bc19487f7442a8b0161\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Teachers will be well supported with guidance, professional development, and materials to implement these changes and ensure there is consistency across all schools to give all kids equal opportunity. This prevents teachers from having to recreate the wheel every lesson. The core teaching requirements will provide clarity on what needs to be taught and when throughout the curriculum, so no learning opportunities are left to chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d17396bc322420e8630508027bc0879\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: How are the core teaching requirements different from national standards and standardised testing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9cf14bb36fa45f9ab219a914fb5885d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: National standards were a complete and utter failure. They were neither national nor standard, and taught children how to pass a test rather than progress in their education. The difference is this Government is focused on evidence-based teaching and learning. We are legislating core teaching requirements that will add to teachers\u2019 existing expertise by giving them evidence-informed practical guidance to enhance the way they teach literacy, communication, and maths. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0618ad267494aa4894d6ff378ca379c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b178ae1156fc49b89e07e2d0875ac7f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b178ae1156fc49b89e07e2d0875ac7f4\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Is he confident the draft Government Policy Statement on land transport will give effect to the transport targets identified in this Government\u2019s emissions reduction plan; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8a3a835f7b543f9bcdc3b08f6078f09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8a3a835f7b543f9bcdc3b08f6078f09\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The Government Policy Statement (GPS) on land transport is one component of enabling emission reductions in the transport sector. Some of the emission reduction plan actions relate to such investment, whilst others require different interventions, such as regulatory change to, for example, improve the make-up of the fleet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f1501df7f748dca11ff697d4c41d51\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Has a climate impact assessment been undertaken on the draft GPS on land transport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb473cd602e04fd7ae55a96ffe5c6ac9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As was the case with the draft GPS released in 2021 by, amongst others, the then Associate Minister of Transport, no climate change impact assessment is done at the time of the draft; it\u2019s actually done at the time when individual projects are committed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022828924804d3748caa63fe4e8124a3db4\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Climate Change Commission draft advice \u201CThe transport system needs to change at all levels to provide New Zealanders with more low emissions options.\u201D, and, if so, how does he reconcile this with the reduced proportion of funding going to public transport in his draft GPS?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022754d0e296bf4474a8882dd7007431326\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In general terms, I agree with the quote that the member put in her supplementary question. The GPS provides increased funding for public transport services, for public transport infrastructure, for the rail network, for walking and cycling improvements, and for coastal shipping. It also includes new funding for inter-regional public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec6b6149ff7a4995b85d55166ff84aa0\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the proportion of spending for public transport in the transport fund reduced from 20 percent in 2021/22 to 18 percent in 2022/23 to now 17 percent as forecasted in this GPS while we are in a climate crisis and when people in New Zealand desperately need better public transport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ace2e88c1ea94ae5abb1889f0862fa5c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The main reason for those changes in relative percentage would be the massive increase that\u2019s going into road maintenance, which is necessary, in part, to deal with the likes of the storm damage that we had earlier this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f91c8aeb4546c38306101ea1e239b9\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the International Transport Forum at the OECD, which states \u201CThe continued dominance of road infrastructure in national investment priorities is not in line with the need to decarbonise the transport sector and makes reaching the Paris Agreement goals even more challenging.\u201D; if so, how does he justify an upper spending limit of over $4 billion on new roading projects that could be put to transforming our public transport system, which benefits not only the people who use it but also our roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf60fddd546a4f0c926979b1827b6700\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In the first three-year period covered by the GPS, I would note that the major investments in Auckland are in the likes of the north-western busway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289f10665774e472d94b3d585af08be2d\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen the Essential Report poll that showed 72 percent of New Zealanders supported improving public transport, rail, and coastal shipping over building new roads, and does he agree, then, therefore, that doing the right thing for the climate would also be popular in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220038cd90131f4594b69141a40c8ee18e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t seen that poll, but I will look it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e121f22fa310402687bf19326acbd453\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u002270644d6bce7a45a896e9588387442f50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270644d6bce7a45a896e9588387442f50\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What announcement has she recently made regarding free prescriptions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022523b48f1e29c461a8133e54bb971b0a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022523b48f1e29c461a8133e54bb971b0a9\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E This Government is reducing the cost of healthcare for New Zealand households by removing the $5 co-payment for prescription medicines. Yesterday I was proud to announce that since the $5 co-payment has been removed over 3 million free prescriptions have helped around 900,000 New Zealanders. Removing the $5 charge has made it cheaper for New Zealanders to access the medicines they need. This has had a meaningful impact for many households, particularly those who have multiple prescriptions to fill on a regular basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b51f1dfb7034f25acfbb0577876dd64\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: What financial impact has this investment had for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294fe2edbe3b24201a3c0f4f1c19e481e\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The 3 million free prescriptions has put approximately $8.4\u00A0million back in the pockets of 900,000 New Zealanders. Free prescriptions are part of the Government\u2019s 10 point plan to reduce the cost of living, and mean people are less likely to get sick, less likely to live with pain, and less likely to need time off work for illness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ffa510526ef40eba4a9f3834b0d568b\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government moved to improve access to medicines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae999b7014c4b6c9cd68e1906b1e596\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: We know the $5 charge was a barrier to some New Zealanders accessing the medicines they need. Now, the 21-year-old student won\u2019t have to worry about having enough money for her contraception; a young man with epilepsy can stay in training and keep his driver\u2019s licence; the father with diabetes gets his life-saving medicine for free. Our track record is to invest in Kiwis\u2019 health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faddb5eaffe7422dbdf895b021c5084f\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: How is this change supporting the better health of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ce04e5902b940c38aabe26b86e85492\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Removing the $5 prescription co-payment means we are investing in simple treatments that prevent chronic conditions becoming emergencies that need hospital treatments. We\u2019re making it easier to get blood pressure treatment so that fewer people have strokes, people have access to diabetes treatment to prevent kidney failure and blindness, and we are making it easier for people to get cholesterol treatment to prevent their heart attacks. Proposed changes to reinstate the payment while proposing tax cuts for millionaires are both unfair and out of touch. Labour\u2019s track record is to invest in health, and that\u2019s all at risk under a National-ACT Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222551a3524d3846f4863a232801999faf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Yeah, Government cannot use patsy questions to attack the Opposition. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245939de411ed480083e2da945206bb12\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa4905094f74ad18a83991414663f99\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it\u2019s appropriate that members of Parliament like me and her receive a $5 co-pay relief, or would that money be better spent on cancer drugs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293588c68c6da4288bf5d619e09ed7ceb\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: All people are entitled to medical treatment and what\u2019s more I noticed that every method that that side of the House proposes to try and target this does mean that some people will miss out. I believe in universal access to healthcare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226935008a2896478f8033236e5ebf91cd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00220619f98741114db684b81a668b9f1bba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220619f98741114db684b81a668b9f1bba\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Is she satisfied with the state of schools in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022328dbec71d7f462c98b600313b04204a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022328dbec71d7f462c98b600313b04204a\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I am satisfied that the rapid action taken by this Government to improve attendance is working, with 412 initiatives funded across 762 schools and 84 additional attendance officers in place. I am satisfied our teachers are to be well supported to teach the new maths and literacy curriculum, with core teaching requirements to be legislated so it\u2019s clear what needs to be taught and when. I am satisfied that barriers to education have been removed by programmes such as free healthy school lunches, free period products, counselling in schools, and removing school donations. Is there more work to do? Yes. But I am satisfied that under this Government schools are best placed to support learning environments for our kids to thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223796c88ce6a442efa6bee6bb4dcd0cdd\u0022\u003EChris Baillie\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that Melville High School in Hamilton has had to hire private security guards to \u201Censure that everyone goes home safely at the end of the day\u201D, and, if so, what is the Ministry of Education doing to support schools like these?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222aafef1cb5e48518bd8108d1251eb65\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t had that information come across my desk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a7880eef62b45c7803e633ec1913184\u0022\u003EChris Baillie\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Ministry of Education begin to understand whether it is helping to improve school safety when it doesn\u2019t collect information on assaults on students or staff members, even if it involves the use of weapons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213c7301d86cc4ec7b411216f02b90028\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: The Ministry of Education went through a very big restructure last year. Te Mahau was created, which is very close to schools, and they have officers that work very, very closely and close with those schools and know those schools and the issues that they are presented with, and are supporting them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287eb07802483438ba178d8c505752608\u0022\u003EChris Baillie\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that the number of home-school students increased from 6,000 in 2017 to nearly 11,000 in 2023, and does she accept that this 81 percent increase is an indication that parents are losing faith in the education system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a7182a93294f72987406937b13f87a\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: That member will be aware that a big reason why that happened was because we had been through a pandemic. Sometimes they do forget that there has been a pandemic that has created a disruption to our school learning. What that member should also be aware of is that those home-school numbers are coming back down again because those people are re-entering school. And what is happening is that there is a growing number of them coming back into the schooling system and showing great support for the State system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae38022b0b6f408a9338cfb0e1426c58\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022af0c712a467a473a8debd5758f4a94c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af0c712a467a473a8debd5758f4a94c0\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What is the latest Faster Cancer Treatment (31-day indicator) result, and what current hurdles are there for improved cancer management?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad57c3d4fc1c464dbd4010270e5fcc62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad57c3d4fc1c464dbd4010270e5fcc62\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The Faster Cancer Treatment 31-day indicator is the proportion of patients who received their first cancer treatment within 31 days from the date of decision to treat. Health New Zealand\u2019s most recent clinical performance metrics for January to March 2023 is 83 percent; the target is 85 percent. I am confident performance against this metric will improve as our efforts to grow our workforce take effect. To the second part of the question, a hurdle to purchasing expensive cancer treatments is when a politician promises to purchase specific medicines without allowing Pharmac to negotiate a good deal and make our dollar go further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3096074474f49aea6e13ac7947a453d\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Is 83 percent the worst Faster Cancer Treatment 31-day indicator in the past five years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239237349f6324f6bab3128d945f0a307\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is not that different from previous performance against that indicator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f327869ff2184563991ff32c9649e848\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Cancer Control Agency complete the chemotherapy gap analysis with Australia, for blood cancers such as myeloma and leukaemia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d71457e4eec4d468cf09ef5eee283b1\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: That work is under way. But, speaking of the cancer agency, that agency does tremendous work to define how we should better look after cancer. And it\u2019s a reminder of one of the many initiatives that this Government has brought in to improve cancer care, after the previous Government disestablished the Cancer Control Council. It\u2019s also worth remembering the 10 linear accelerators our Government has built, when no cancer radiation treatment and infrastructure was built under the last Government. It\u2019s worth remembering that the last Government promised to implement HPV screening, something this Government has brought in. It\u2019s also worth remembering that the bowel screening\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022541302350f29460786482fa65aab90a4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s also worth remembering this is not a speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f64eb62594e24f5192b0a6c2cf1908dc\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Is 83 percent the worst 31-day Faster Cancer Treatment indicator in the past five years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022991d8354cf3f4f91981089d36b4a2d3c\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that that figure has been around the target across the five years. If that member wants a more specific answer on those statistics, they are welcome to put that question on notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d2f4418be5485ba170c2820f08840f\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Has she asked officials to assess how many people go to Australia each year to receive cancer medicines that have significant clinical benefit that Australia funds and we do not, and, if so, how many people is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ac406d7ba0c446488f387ca1e92078e\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has increased the budget for Pharmac considerably\u2014by 51 percent. And it has had a tremendous impact on the treatment of cancer in New Zealand: multiple treatments for advanced non-small cell cancer, for ovarian cancer, for breast cancer, for myeloid leukaemia, for refractory follicular or marginal-zone lymphoma\u2014the list goes on and on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022929f205c92a5457d84a6e25c9c695f1c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Local Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00220f9d0280934e4bb49b90323a93f36f64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f9d0280934e4bb49b90323a93f36f64\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: What Government initiatives will help limit future local government rates increases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc58dcaedf0a402bb07a278aad5d0259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc58dcaedf0a402bb07a278aad5d0259\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Kiwi households and businesses are doing it tough. Across the board we are implementing measures to take the pressure off. Most local authorities are faced with no choice but to put rates up to meet the rising costs of providing services to communities. It is important that Government supports local government to keep rates down. One example of this is the Government\u2019s affordable water reforms. Without these reforms, rates rises will become unbearable. Through these reforms, we\u2019ve managed to keep forecasted rates rises down. For example, the establishment of the Auckland and Northland entity will avoid the doubling of charges projected in Auckland Council\u2019s 2021 to 2031 long-term plan. This will also bring average household charges in Northland down to similar levels to those in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227adb19b0bd034c91940c06d7829b11bb\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What would repealing and reversing the affordable water reforms do to rates rises?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a347d35c9f574b1897dad3c1fd50fd15\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Repealing and reversing affordable water would be a disaster for the rate-paying public. For example, in the Wellington region, which uses the council-controlled model, a model that has been put forward by some as an alternative to reforms would see a 60 percent rates increase by 2054. These are forecasts that have been verified by engineering consultancies Beca and Farrierswier. To put that kind of pressure on Kiwi households is unfair and unjustifiable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da6d03a5207445a1b7aad28c0ceb4673\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What would repealing and reversing the affordable water reforms mean for infrastructure investment if councils can only rely on rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fda9050fe86b4f15ab9b21284f3ad6b4\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand faces up to $185 billion of required investment in water infrastructure, and local authorities have told us that they cannot do it by themselves. If affordable water reform is reversed, small and rural councils will be left out in the cold and without the means to make the required investment. Councils in Otago and Southland, for example, by 2054 will need to introduce annual household charges of nearly $10,000 per year to make the required investment in their infrastructure. Many of these councils are near their debt ceilings or their populations simply can\u2019t cope with higher charges. That means critical investment won\u2019t be able to be made and levels of service will decline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a737536dcf4161851a1b5e2a9c3172\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Minister showing commitment to the sector to help them keep rates under control?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf9f667506884d8991ee9c7cad15fd87\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: When I visited all 55 rural and provincial councils, the messages I heard were consistent: localism works, but councils can\u2019t be left to fend for themselves with only limited ways to generate income. Small and rural councils can\u2019t rely on rates from large populations or significant businesses to cover their costs. I\u2019ve been clear that under any reform I undertake as Minister, no small or rural council will be left behind. I note that no such commitment is being offered by members on the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b40514174064234a15bf35a2f9e1069\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f59cbe6a29f7461fa7001543cbf0ed9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f59cbe6a29f7461fa7001543cbf0ed9a\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by her statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002268779e22c0304b3c937947188f99014a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268779e22c0304b3c937947188f99014a\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were given and taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ebc6cf8ec4e4584b1f97a0f00248537\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she announce a policy that makes the methods that teachers use to teach numeracy and literacy mandatory when the final Common Practice Model document that outlines what those practices actually are is not due to be published until November\u2014after the election\u2014according to the time line published by the Ministry of Education? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef6f4d33bb449a9929948538f63ab83\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: As I said when I announced that yesterday, to make certain that teachers have enough time to engage in the process from here through to when the final copy comes through but also in the 18 months that they will have to work through that document so that we can make changes as a Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229abd18909b2e4a2f90433c7e96513eee\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: On The AM Show this morning, when she was asked if structured literacy would be one of these compulsory methods of teaching New Zealand kids how to read, why was she unable to confirm this, stating, \u201CI haven\u2019t seen, to be fair, what has come back from the expert group yet.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205dd13eca3a0439abe661b29ce4b84d8\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Because I haven\u2019t seen what has come back from the expert group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238da8cba8da949aea4f9278a9ecb9c68\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that the teaching practice for math contained in the draft Common Practice Model that states that \u201CA critical maths [theory develops] critical awareness about wider social, environmental, political, ideological, and economic issues [and] recognises the importance of understanding, interpreting, and addressing issues of power, social justice and equity\u201D will be a compulsory method for teaching mathematics? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a5b6c3fbf942b6b382152532143474\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: The member has selected a quote from the principles and pedagogical approaches, a draft document for teaching professionals\u2014for teaching professionals, not politicians. The pedagogical approaches in the Common Practice Model are theoretical frameworks or approaches to teaching informed by evidence on how students learn. Let me put that in layperson\u2019s terms: it is putting learning into the context of the students, and it will lead to better learning outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0aa30097f2947ca9446dabba4d42752\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can she explain why the Government has now backtracked by mandating the methods teachers must use in literacy and numeracy when the previous Minister of Education Chris Hipkins stated in just September last year, \u201CThe exact methods that teachers use in order to teach are matters of professional judgment for the teachers. \u2026 ultimately the teacher in the classroom is the person who is best positioned to make that [decision]\u201D\u2014effectively refusing to even contemplate mandating teacher practice? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227669c341d8de4c7e83ba2be358ebf99a\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can say that I absolutely agree with the former Minister of Education. The fact that the member thinks that\u2019s what the Government is doing here shows she has misunderstood the announcement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7f4e14a6cc34c7f9f72f643a65b6437\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: How can the New Zealand public and parents trust a Government that is mandating, or asking an expert to mandate, the teaching practice teachers will use to teach literacy and numeracy when those actual practices will not be released until November this year, after the election? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d261c69582674c53811c9b1a01feeff5\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is about providing clarity about what needs to be taught and when. The announcement is to get teachers on board with this decision, to get them to come with the decision. I will notice that I have had a number of teachers who have contacted me to say that this is a good move and they welcome it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226750c58dfda946eba940d032159f3720\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a82efa13448c4c5b9e44a7aaf1d9e583\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, you\u2019ve run out of supplementaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b66c7018ce3462c9759d84dcbd31801\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00221d750655d66a4353b13e881717fd9343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d750655d66a4353b13e881717fd9343\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What progress has the Government made on preventing litigation abuse for victims of family violence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00224a2157ba9d694d3489d504876d93cb9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a2157ba9d694d3489d504876d93cb9e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Today, the Government introduced a bill to strengthen the courts\u2019 powers to protect victims of litigation abuse in family proceedings. Litigation abuse is where someone uses the court system itself to harass, contact, or control their victim rather than resolving legitimate disputes within the court system itself. The Victims of Family Violence (Strengthening Legal Protections) Legislation Bill provides better protections for victims of family violence by providing judges with the power to make orders in response to litigation abuse. I remain proud of our strong track record of supporting victims compared to the previous Government, which cut funding to Victim Support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228f148dfb7bc4c6d8f483e1eaff97c3b\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: Why is litigation abuse an important issue for the Government to work to prevent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223344f244856b45a1858e404e2ac8cb0c\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Litigation abuse includes the type of cases where an abuser may present fabricated allegations or file multiple court documents that take the victim\u2019s energy, time, and money to respond to. We have seen the court system used to cause even further harm to victims of crime. This is simply unacceptable and it is not in line with our expectations of how the court system should work. This bill provides better protections while ensuring that there is appropriate access to courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de3d71e7edb349118c382f673cb937d1\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: How does the bill help address litigation abuse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c9a9cb5a79b4e5fbb0086dd4d5b5b9f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Under the new provision, courts will have to take a broad view of conduct in the family proceedings to determine whether someone is abusing the court\u2019s processes\u2014for example, by using the process to harass someone. Once a determination has been made, the court can then decide to make an order requiring the court to review and approve further steps in proceedings to ensure that they are, in fact, appropriate. Currently, victims of litigation abuse must meet a high threshold before they can access the protections they should be entitled to. The protections focus on the types of documents and proceedings rather than the patterns of abuse. That is unacceptable and this bill will improve victims\u2019 rights and experiences in our courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d59f9fc8e6724558ba5421329e2d3afa\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: How does the bill fit into the Government\u2019s wider reforms supporting better outcomes for victims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be1a3ef72e63403d81bef5667e853f2b\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is part of a first phase of reform and sits together with the Victims of Sexual Violence (Strengthening Legal Protections) Legislation Bill, which addresses known issues in the justice system by reducing the risk of children being questioned about consent in court and giving greater choice in complaints in sexual violence proceedings around name suppression. Also, there are three pilot programmes in place to improve safety and help navigate the court system for victims of serious crime, to strengthen support for child victims of sexual violence, and to ensure victims\u2019 views are provided in bail decisions; and, finally, additional funding to help Victim Support and the Victim Assistance Scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eabbd18c04bd4212a00a2e219c608779\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f5d5cf91c424edfbbe73d1d6be7e763\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022be143f67bb7b44bd8a0d2ad157ac6c62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be143f67bb7b44bd8a0d2ad157ac6c62\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand it is the Government\u2019s intention to introduce an imprest supply bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee78f52749dd4b7aa17b8b048d44fa38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee78f52749dd4b7aa17b8b048d44fa38\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00227902ae26c87f4b168eb7232ef273272b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227902ae26c87f4b168eb7232ef273272b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for first reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5f70c916e3e4c6896eb38681287d6db\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00229cb18f4d1b234231afbe663b3da6cb58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cb18f4d1b234231afbe663b3da6cb58\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f54bed2e77e949ecb9652de7ae9b1ace\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f54bed2e77e949ecb9652de7ae9b1ace\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b6b84fcef3c945dd8abdebe4a5f5db15\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000193\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d61dec9c7f942f48edb6fb76d95e130\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002299b2db2098bd4fdca04bf974b6c2f91f\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed19e725417e4d6baed139ebd2d549fb\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288674618b8ce4bfbb1d718b415e901b1\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1dd9bc91c0a4db39c6ea7ab32eca199\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1dd9bc91c0a4db39c6ea7ab32eca199\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill be now read a third time and the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is the conclusion, effectively, of the Budget debate, and I will return to the Government\u2019s Wellbeing Budget in a moment. But firstly, to deal with the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill, what this does\u2014as all imprest supply bills do\u2014is provide interim parliamentary authority for expenditure decisions made, or to be made, by the Government through to the end of the financial year that are in addition to the amounts in the Estimates, in this case the 2023/24 Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe second imprest bill provides for any operating or capital spending decisions, including pre-commitments against future Budget allowances, and expenditure incurred against the between Budget contingency and national resilience plan. It also covers fiscally neutral adjustments which increase one appropriation but decrease another, confirmation of expense transfers, increases in demand-driven appropriations, and draw-downs of existing tagged contingency. Provision is also made for any risks that may materialise during this period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe amount requested in the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill is $28.5 billion made up of about $16 billion of expenses, $11.5 billion of capital expenditure, and $1 billion of capital injections. This is the same amount sought in last year\u2019s second imprest supply bill and significantly lower than the $41 billion sought in the Imprest Supply (Second for 2021/22) Bill. The amount sought in this imprest supply bill will be sufficient to cover any expenditure that may occur in the financial year that is in addition to what is in the 2023/24 Estimates, including responding to extreme weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ETreasury reporting indicates that actual expenses incurred against imprest supply Acts are consistently lower than the authority provided for by the legislation. For example, the June 2023 controller report indicates that the actual expenses incurred against the Imprest Supply (Second for 2022/23) Act 2022 totalled approximately $11.4 billion. That\u2019s less than half of the authority provided in the Act, which totalled $28.5 billion. All expenditure incurred under the interim authority of the second imprest bill will need to be appropriated by Parliament before the end of the financial year, as is the case every year. This will be done through the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, which gets introduced on Budget Day 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn addition to the imprest supply bill, as I said earlier, this is the final reading of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. The Budget debate comes to a conclusion. Can I reiterate, as I have said several times during this debate at different readings, how proud I am of Budget 2023. Because what that did was strike a balance, an important balance, for New Zealanders facing cost of living pressures but, equally, knowing that the Government needs to return to a more sustainable fiscal approach after the significant investments made during the COVID period, also knowing that we need to balance that against making sure that public services are provided to New Zealanders in the way that they both need and expect them to be provided, and that we responded to the weather events of January and February.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s there that I want to start. I am proud that this Government stepped up straight away with the kind of emergency response that New Zealanders need in these moments. That we were able to be there and provide hundreds of millions of dollars of support in that immediate emergency response phase is both a tribute to the people on the ground in New Zealand\u2014those who work within our civil defence apparatus\u2014but also the marae, the local communities, and those who do that work. We are for ever grateful for that, and as a Government we have backed them. We can only do that as a result of the balanced and responsible approach that we take. But we added to that in this Budget with a further close to a billion dollars, making a total of $2 billion that has gone towards the recovery and the rebuild from that cyclone. That is made up of many, many different things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI just want to highlight a couple of those. The fact that we now have transport networks across the affected regions reopened\u2014virtually every part of the network now usable\u2014is a tribute to some extraordinary work. And when we see the Bailey bridges being deployed and how much that meant to the communities around it, I am proud that we funded that in this Budget. But it goes all the way down to smaller initiatives as well: the work that\u2019s been done to roll out mental health support in the regions that have been affected by the cyclone, particularly for children as well. As we\u2019re working day in, day out to improve the delivery of those services, we know that they make a difference as well. So that was a big part of Budget 2023: to step up to use our balance sheet to make sure that we look after New Zealanders in times of need. That is what New Zealanders rightly expect of their Government and that is what we have done in this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut alongside that, we have sought to ease the cost of living pressures that New Zealanders face whilst doing that in a way that does not exacerbate inflation unnecessarily and achieves other goals that the Government has. That includes, for example, the $5 prescription fee being scrapped, meaning that the 135,000 New Zealanders who didn\u2019t pick up a prescription because of the cost last year will now get the health care that they need. The important thing here that Dr Ayesha Verrall was indicating today is what that means is that many of those people end up in our emergency departments because they haven\u2019t picked up their prescription. So this is actually a win-win, in terms of the Budget, just as, I might say, making free public transport is for under - 13-year-olds and half price for under  25year-olds, because that is not only relieving a cost of living pressure; it is also good for our environment to see more people in public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen there is the early childhood education commitment that sees the 20 hours\u2019 free policy extended to two-year-olds. As I went around the country promoting this Budget, it was that initiative that was raised with me time and time again by people who knew that this would make the difference for them. [Interruption] This is an example where members on the other side of the House who are interjecting might actually think about the fact that this policy is not only good for families; it\u2019s also good for our businesses because this means that people can return to work earlier than they might otherwise have done. That was the comment I got from young parents, particularly young mums, saying this is the chance, this is the opportunity, because this Government and this Budget delivered that cost of living relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other significant part of the spending in the Budget is around public services and making sure that we invest in our teachers, in our nurses, in our hospitals, and in our schools. That investment does not happen by accident. Sometimes when we\u2019re in this House, it appears that members opposite believe that it is a given that that sort of investment will be made. Well, it\u2019s not. And the reason we know that it\u2019s not a given is because it didn\u2019t happen the last time that National were in office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis brings me to the other theme of the Budget, and that is around fiscal responsibility. It is always a balancing act, putting a Budget together. There are hard and tough decisions to be made. We know New Zealand households are making hard and tough decisions, and we have been doing the same thing as we bring our spending back down from the necessary levels of COVID. To get that balance right, to be able to provide public services, to be able to ease the cost of living pressures that people are facing, to be able to make our country more resilient to climate change\u2014to do all of those things and make sure that we\u2019re being careful fiscally is tough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe thing that would undermine that is proposing huge\u2014billions of dollars of\u2014unfunded tax cuts, tax cuts that would see millionaires receiving a thousand dollars a year while those on the minimum wage get two bucks a week. That kind of tax cut, worth billions of dollars, can only be funded in this environment by making sure that public services are cut. That\u2019s the only way it can be done, because otherwise it means increasing debt, and that\u2019s been ruled out by the National Party; they\u2019re not going to do that. So apparently they\u2019re going to do it by cutting services\u2014billions of dollars\u2014cuts to education, cuts to health, cuts to housing, cuts to the services we rely on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b59e1c21017491f9edbf0cf6745d23a\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: No, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4b3b225d9bd4cc7b558130a89df4188\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite says no, it\u2019s not. Well, she should have a chat with her coalition partner David Seymour. She should have a chit chat with David Seymour, because what he says is we can get rid of thousands of public servants. Well, that\u2019s one thing that\u2019s bad. But the second part of it that\u2019s bad is that, actually, that would be the end of the screen sector, which is funded in this Budget. That would be the end of the game development rebate funded in this Budget. There would be the end of the major events fund that brought us the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup. All of that gone. So there will be cuts\u2014there will be cuts if there is a change of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis Budget is something I am extremely proud of. It is a Budget that got the balance right in tough times. We continue to face those tough times, and as a Government we will step up to meet our fiscal rules, to get back into surplus across the forecast period, to keep debt under 30 percent, but all the while we will invest in our people and we will support them through these tough times. That\u2019s what Budget 2023 does and I am very proud to present it back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002240c793f6c30d46138dda9f3f12884007\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c793f6c30d46138dda9f3f12884007\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022514c5560edf84334a11e21c28dbc75d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022514c5560edf84334a11e21c28dbc75d3\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E This is a valedictory of a Budget. It is a farewell Budget from a Government that has been unable to respond to the times and the needs of the New Zealanders they are meant to serve. In this Budget, we have Grant Robertson at his symbolic best: taxing more, spending more, and digging us into deeper deficit, more debt, and lower growth. That is the testimony of six years of Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn 2019, before COVID came to New Zealand, our core Government debt was $5.4 billion. In this Budget, Grant Robertson has delivered, as we stand here today, $73 billion worth of debt, and it\u2019s set to blow out even further to $95\u00A0billion. The question that New Zealanders ask me up and down the country is, \u201CNicola, what do we have to show for it?\u201D Because, when they look around them, they see that in their family and their household they are beset by a cost of living crisis that means they struggle every fortnight to balance their bills and their income. Groceries have gone up, petrol has gone up, their rent has gone up, their mortgage has gone up\u2014everywhere they look, costs have gone up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215fae683023a452785b2484fd4c84a4f\u0022\u003ESteph Lewis\u003C/span\u003E: You want to drive their rent up further by allowing foreign investors back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aad0cdf80fe4cb0bc92eb899aadf0bf\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, to that member, let me inform you: rents have gone up $175 a week on average under Labour. That\u2019s what you have delivered for renters, and that\u2019s before we talk about those with a mortgage, who have seen interest rates climb so fast that those with mortgages\u2014firsthome buyers in particular\u2014have been left scrambling, trying to find hundreds of dollars a fortnight to service their mortgage. While, on that side of the House, they like to say, \u201COh well, incomes have gone up\u201D, New Zealanders aren\u2019t foolish; they know that, while their incomes have gone up in nominal terms, it hasn\u2019t kept up with the real increase in costs. So, every fortnight, they find themselves slipping backwards. What National says to the members opposite is that you can\u2019t care for people if you don\u2019t care for the economy, and in this Budget we have all the signs of a Government that has given up on caring properly for the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat it does is it increases spending without delivering more for the people that spending is meant to serve. When we compare the amount the Government promises to spend in this Budget, this year, with how much was spent in 2017, we see an 80 percent increase. Again, wherever I go in the country, New Zealanders say to me, \u201CNicola, which public service is 80 percent better?\u201D It\u2019s not as if the hospital waiting lists are 80 percent shorter. It\u2019s not as if people are waiting 80 percent less time in the emergency waiting room. It\u2019s not as if educational standards have risen 80 percent or violent crime has reduced by 80 percent. What this Government has done again and again, in Budget after Budget, is mistake the act of spending money with the need to deliver results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIt is not enough to simply take more tax from New Zealanders\u2014more of what they earn\u2014and throw it at big promises; actually, what New Zealanders want is the delivery of results, and they have not had that under Labour. This is another Budget which refuses to give them more of what they have earned, to allow them to keep more of it, and instead promises to spend and spend and spend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis Budget should have delivered income tax reduction. It should have put more dollars in the back pockets of working people, who have been pushed into higher tax brackets because of inflation. The Government is collecting around $100 million a day more in tax, and yet it says it couldn\u2019t possibly afford to let New Zealanders have income tax reduction. Well, I would put to you that a Government who even in the middle of a cost of living crisis, with New Zealanders unable to pay their bills, can\u2019t see the case for tax reduction but thinks it must continue to spend New Zealanders\u2019 money is a Government that has lost sight of the people it is meant to be serving. This is a Budget that continues to allow the cost of living crisis to burn on. I remember when Grant Robertson promised New Zealand that inflation was a short-term challenge. Well, here we are and we are entering the third year of a cost of living crisis in which inflation is outside New Zealand\u2019s target range.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat all of the economists warned was that, if the Government keeps doing these expansionary, big-spending Budgets, they will add fuel to the inflationary fire, but Grant Robertson took no heed. In fact, in every Budget he has delivered, according to the Treasury\u2019s own analysis, he has, on average, spent $600 million more than he promised he would six months prior in his Budget Policy Statement. This is a Government whose spending is completely out of control and who has allowed that to fuel the cost of living crisis. We learnt last week that, as a result of that persistent and sticky inflation, interest rates are likely to stay higher for longer. That will burn not only New Zealanders with a mortgage, who will find that they have less discretionary income in their household because they\u2019re having to service bigger debt repayments; it will also hurt the small and medium businesses which we desperately need to see growing this country out of recession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThose who took on debt during COVID to get through are now flipping on to higher interest rates that many of them simply can\u2019t keep up with. So we see the recession rolling on. What this Budget should have done is provide a path out of inflation and high interest rates with disciplined spending. It should have reduced the taxes that New Zealanders pay, and it should have had a focus on delivery for results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe finance Minister, in his remarks, talked about his fiscal goals. Well, when this Budget was set out, it promised that New Zealand would return to surplus in 2026. The surplus noted is around half a billion dollars. We\u2019ve now had multiple people come out and say it is highly unlikely that the Government will meet that target, because recessionary conditions are such that the books have completely blown out. So, actually, what we have in this budget is a Government that is delivering higher deficits into the future, huge debt, huge spending, and huge tax. And could there be anything more Labour than that? Six years of a Government that got the money hose, sprayed it all around\u2014with very little care for what results they would get for it or what discipline they would take from it\u2014and who has left New Zealanders worse off by almost every measure: health services, described by those who work on their front lines, are in crisis; schools, where standards in the basics of reading, writing, and maths have declined so much that the education Minister, Jan Tinetti, has decided to adopt the National Party spokesperson Erica Stanford\u2019s policy; crime that\u2019s up so much that, when I knocked on someone\u2019s door recently, she was almost in tears when she told me what her staff have had to put up with in the shop that she owns, including being bitten by another human being and threatened with a hammer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo the point here is that Labour has not only managed to spend without getting results, they\u2019ve now burdened future generations of New Zealanders with cleaning up the mess that they have left. As we stand here today, New Zealanders are being overtaxed, paying more tax than ever, both in individual terms but as a proportion of the economy as a whole. The amount of money that the Government is soaking up into its own spending is much greater as a proportion of the economy. Our deficits are bigger and deeper than they should be, and we have debt that, as I say, has risen to $73\u00A0billion and is forecast to go up to $95 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAs I said at the beginning, this is a valedictory of a Budget because it\u2019s a farewell Budget. It\u2019s a typical end of a Labour Government: to leave the next Government with the books in a mess, huge amounts of debt, public services that have gone backwards, and everyday New Zealanders struggling because they lost sight of the basics of economic management, of disciplined spending, of ensuring that their actions didn\u2019t put more pressure on inflation and interest rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThey can dress it up with all of the slogans and attack lines, as Grant Robertson attempted to do, but the reality is being felt by New Zealanders, who know that under Labour they are worse off than they once were and that the team opposite me cannot be trusted to deliver for them. The good news is that a National Government can deliver, will reduce their tax, bring discipline to spending, solve the cost of living crisis, and deliver better services by ensuring value for their money. That\u2019s what a good National Government will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022593e3b43e4c5437ca23fb6009389c98f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022593e3b43e4c5437ca23fb6009389c98f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E The last 10 minutes has been a chilling Dickensian view, window, into what the future would look like under a National/ACT Government. We have heard nothing but the coded rhetoric of cuts to core public services, from the Opposition finance spokesperson in what she just gave us in the last 10 minutes. Listening to that, I\u2019m once again reminded of how lucky this country has been to have six Grant Robertson - led Budgets. It is an absolute privilege to take a call in this debate to talk about that Budget, what it means for New Zealanders, and what it is delivering for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAs the Minister of Finance said in his address in this debate, this was a Budget that had to strike a balance, and a difficult balance. I want to congratulate our Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson; and our Prime Minister, Chris Hipkins, for threading the needle once again through those difficult times, for finding a way for us to provide support for everyday New Zealanders who are finding it tough, but never losing sight on the fact that we have to plan and build for tomorrow. That is exactly what Budget 2023 did. We focused on what mattered most to New Zealanders right now, like dealing with measures that will deliver on the cost of living. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut we did not shy away from facing up to those issues that no Government should take its eye off, like dealing with climate change, like properly planning for our infrastructure. Sadly, that is exactly the lack of vision that we have seen for decades from the National Party and that we are being reminded of again\u2014that their short-term thinking would be delivered in any Budget that they served up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo if we think about what we did to support New Zealanders in these immediate times that are difficult, in Budget 2023: cheaper childcare. As my colleague, the Minister of Finance, said, not only is the support for two-year-olds in early childhood incredibly important for our families in dealing with their household budgets, but this is also incredibly important for businesses in terms of the women\u2014largely women\u2014returning to the workforce after having children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe also saw Budget 2023 dealing with helping New Zealanders with their health costs. Now, like probably far too many colleagues in this House\u2014well, certainly on this side of the House\u2014I visited pharmacy after pharmacy in my electorate of Wigram and saw the boxes of unpicked-up prescriptions; or talked to the pharmacists about their customers who have come in and asked the pharmacy staff to help them make the difficult decision about which of their medicines they\u2019d pick up that day. Would they choose their diabetes medication? Would they choose their heart medication? Would they choose their blood pressure pills? These are the kind of choices that New Zealanders were having to make, and is why in Budget 2023 our Government saw it as such a priority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENobody benefits from those left-behind prescriptions sitting in the boxes of pharmacies all around this country\u2014certainly those individuals and their families that are having to make those hard choices and certainly not our wider health system that ends up dealing with the ramifications of someone not taking their medicines that their GP provided them, when they turn up at an emergency department with a far more serious health concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThey\u2019re the kind of issues that we looked at in Budget 2023\u2014for cutting transport costs, for making sure that we are continuing to support New Zealanders and take some of that burden off budgets. Also one that I am particularly proud of: reducing power bills through continuing to roll out our Warmer Kiwi Homes that now not only provides for the insulation of thousands and thousands of New Zealanders\u2019 homes to help them cut their power bills, but also allows for installing efficient heating sources like heat pumps, but also, for the first time ever, making minor repairs to homes so you can insulate them. You cannot insulate a home properly with rotting windows and holes in the roof; you simply cannot do it. So I was very proud that we were able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I was also very proud of is that we continued to see an investment in our public services. It is our Government\u2019s commitment to supporting our public services that has meant that we have delivered pay rises for nurses, that we have delivered pay rises for teachers, that we have been able to invest in these professions that are so critical. We were only making up for nine years of absolute neglect in this area from a National Government previously. As the Opposition\u2019s spokesperson told us, that our Budget exemplified Labour, I think what we heard from that member did nothing more than exemplify what a National Government would deliver and what a National Budget would deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we have heard from National and its coalition partner, ACT, of what would be gone: fair pay agreements, gone, cut; the things that will deliver wage increases for working New Zealanders, gone under a National/ACT Government; cutting free prescriptions, gone under a National/ACT Government. Instead, we\u2019ll see the return of those boxes filled of unpicked-up prescriptions, which sit there doing nothing rather than treating the New Zealanders they should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe also know that a National/ACT Government: cut KiwiSaver contributions. We know that a National/ACT Government will raise the age of superannuation eligibility. We know that a National/ACT Government will cut benefit levels. We know that a National/ACT Government will cut the winter energy payment. We know that a National/ACT Government\u2014despite many of its members picking it up themselves\u2014will cut the clean car discount. We know that a National/ACT Government will neglect to do anything on climate change and try and roll New Zealand back into some kind of 1970s sitcom. They want to restart oil and gas exploration offshore. The rest of the world is facing up to the fact that we have to take decisive climate action and that our future and our prosperity lies in a renewable future. But not this Government that is intent on taking us back to some kind of dystopian past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhile we hear the crocodile tears from the Opposition that there is a plan that will benefit working people and put extra money in their pockets through their unfunded tax cuts, the reality of that for working people is two bucks a week while the highest earners receive over $1,000 a year. So spare us the crocodile tears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe reality for working people is they will have their fair pay agreements cut. They will be back to paying for their prescriptions. KiwiSaver contributions will be cut. The age of eligibility for superannuation will be raised. There will be a cut to benefit levels and that money to help with the power bill over winter in the form of the winter energy payment: gone. Their ability to shift to a more affordable form of transport in the form of electric vehicles through the clean car discount: gone. All of this so the highest-earning New Zealanders can get an extra thousand dollars a year. So the National Government and its ACT mates need to come clean with New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere are going to be cuts. They will be deep. Make no mistake about it: if this country was to have the misfortune to have a National/ACT Budget delivered next year, it would exemplify the coalition of cuts. This would cut deep and this would go to the hearts of working and ordinary New Zealanders who deserve better. I am proud to be part of a Government that has delivered a Budget that does strike that careful balance\u2014that does offer support for today but delivers for tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00228f23f80bca6048daaf53018cb79b12f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f23f80bca6048daaf53018cb79b12f2\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EGee, that was a dreadful speech. It was shocker from a senior Minister. It was actually full of a whole lot of mistruths\u2014if I can say that\u2014particularly around the issue of the winter energy payment. National is going to maintain the winter energy payment, and I don\u2019t even know where the comment around the KiwiSaver reduction came from\u2014it\u2019s just absolute figments of her imagination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt looks like a morgue over there. What has happened over there? There\u2019s no energy. I reckon they\u2019re all on their phones looking for jobs: \u201CI wonder what I\u2019m going to do in 55 days\u2019 time.\u201D You couldn\u2019t even support your senior Minister; you\u2019re all sitting there going, \u201CWhoa, woo, oh, ooh.\u201D What is happening? Show a bit of enthusiasm, fight to the last! They\u2019re just giving up\u2014you\u2019re all giving up. It\u2019s just disappointing to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f6c88dafdd442b1bc76587c8ace2809\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member knows that when he refers to and uses the term \u201Cyou\u201D, he\u2019s referring to me. Please do not bring me into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223edd0fb6935248f3b6c7a54b25c11ed9\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: I know, I know, Madam Speaker; you would never give up, I know that. So maybe it\u2019s worthwhile just\u2014[Interruption] Oh, look, they\u2019ve come alive now! Well, why don\u2019t we talk about a few figures? Because I know these people are so well versed with what\u2019s happening in the economy. Gee, I listened to Mr Grant Robertson talking about fiscal responsibility. He loves using that term. I just wish he\u2019d use the word \u201Cdiscipline\u201D, because he has never shown any discipline. Of course, these two bills which we\u2019re meant to be talking about are about providing a little bit of extra cash\u2014so do you have to spend a little bit more? Well, unfortunately, he\u2019s only got 55 days\u2014hopefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo we have witnessed six Budgets where Mr Robertson has overspent what he said he would do; technically referred to as operating allowances. But we have seen year after year of him blowing these Budgets and this is partly what this is about. We have seen during the last six years a record increase in tax. What I find staggering is if you are a business with a type of growth in the amount of new tax revenue that this Government has sucked out of New Zealanders, out of their back pockets, out of businesses, it has gone from\u2014back in 2014\u2014about $75 billion, this year it\u2019ll hit about $123 billion, $124 billion. That\u2019s a $50 billion increase this year\u2014a $50 billion increase in revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EGee, if you had a business that suddenly went, in a matter of six years, to suddenly having $50\u00A0billion extra of revenue\u2014or basically more than half of the value that you were getting six years ago\u2014you\u2019d think that\u2019s a pretty good business. This is what the Government\u2019s had, because we\u2019ve had such rapid inflation, partly driven by the Government. Tax revenue has gone up because people have gone up into higher tax brackets and they\u2019re paying more out of their back pocket. It\u2019s called fiscal drag, the technical term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut even with this $50 billion of extra money, this Minister of Finance keeps spending even more. That\u2019s been the most appalling thing about what\u2019s happened over the last six years; we have racked up these incredible losses. And do you realise, Madam Speaker\u2014and I\u2019m talking to you\u2014that from the period 2020 to 2023, four years, this country has racked up $45 billion of losses. You imagine going to your bank, even if it\u2019s $45,000 or $45 million, whatever, going to your bank and saying, \u201CEvery year for the past four years, we continue to rack up losses\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s worse, the Budget even anticipates another $10 billion of losses over the next two years. That\u2019s $55 billion. But what is even worse, as we\u2019ve heard from Westpac, who are normally pretty conservative, they think, because we have got a declining economy, even worse than it was projected in the Budget, that this country will rack up another $15 billion of losses on top of that. That\u2019s a staggering amount of money. That is $65 billion of losses because even though our tax revenue has gone from $75 billion to $125 billion, we cannot\u2014and this Government has not been able to contain itself. It is unbelievable how wasteful, how inefficient, how inept this Government has been. That Minister who was just speaking before, Megan Woods, she is an associate finance Minister; she should be appalled at their record because whatever way you cut it, it has been disastrous management of the economy. And most of it has been driven by wasteful spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EMost of it has occurred during COVID. We would have done some of the $60 billion of additional spending that was spent by that Government during COVID. We would have done the wage support, we would have done some more support, but there\u2019s probably a missing $25 billion that has just gone into the ether. As Nicola Willis said before, \u201CWhat have we got to show for it?\u201D What have we got to show for that $25 billion that\u2019s just gone into the ether? Have we had a new harbour crossing in Auckland? Have we seen new roads around the country? Have we seen lots more projects with hospital builds? Well, we\u2019ve seen the Dunedin Hospital build; even though we signed off on the business case six years ago, it\u2019s only just really starting\u2014six years later. That\u2019s how inept these people are and that is why we\u2019re so worried about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe have just got rid of truckloads of money out the back door with nothing to show for it. I\u2019ll tell you another thing: if you think about the increase in the Public Service, and I know the members opposite love talking about this, but we have seen a 14,000 increase in public servants, and many of them are well meaning, don\u2019t get me wrong. But that 14,000 increase in the Public Service is a cost to the country, to all of us, of $1.4 billion. If you extrapolate that over 10 years\u2014and remember this Government has been in power for six already\u2014another four years of that would be the equivalent of $14 billion. That is the same amount of money that we could do an across Auckland Harbour crossing without even talking about funding. That is the scale of the wasteful spending that has gone on from this Government. Of course, what we\u2019ve seen is this rapid increase in debt because where do you go if you\u2019ve got increasing tax revenue but you spend more and you waste it, what\u2019s the balancing factors there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve seen debt go from roughly $6 billion to $73 billion. That is a staggering increase. Our gross debt stands at about $135 billion. If you were a household and you kept going to your bank and saying, \u201CI want to keep spending it like this\u201D, they would have made you bankrupt\u2014they would have put you into bankruptcy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, the other really worrying thing\u2014and we started asking the Reserve Bank about it; I started asking questions about this 18 months ago\u2014is the current account deficit. Of the top 40 economies in the world, New Zealand has currently got the highest current account deficit. I\u2019ll tell you what: going from the bottom back upwards\u2014this is in the first quarter of 2023, to be factual\u2014we are at the bottom; we\u2019re behind Latvia, Belgium, Hungary, and Colombia. Oh God, Colombia is a wonderful financially managed country, I\u2019m sure. Nice country, but I\u2019m not sure. Mexico: they\u2019ve got a lower current account deficit than us; Brazil: Brazil\u2019s had a few economic issues, I believe, but, hey, don\u2019t worry, they\u2019ve got a lower current account deficit; India; and what about Greece? Greece has got a better current account deficit, or lower than we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThat just shows how shameful this management of this economy in New Zealand has been by this Government, and people know it. People in the street know it. They don\u2019t always know the details and they don\u2019t all know about the tax revenue and all that sort of stuff. But they understand it and it\u2019s burning a hole in their pocket because what this Government has been doing is taking that money out of their back pocket and just spending on this wasteful stuff, and, eventually, people work that out and this Government finally is being found out. It is horrendous what\u2019s going on and the worst thing is it\u2019s working New Zealanders now\u2014mum and dads who are working for a wage, have got children\u2014seeing their interest rates on their mortgages just dramatically increasing, their food costs skyrocketing, fuel prices gone up. They are the hard-done-by in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe will come in and have to fix this mess. But it is such a bad state that this Government has driven New Zealand back to. It is appalling when you actually look at it and analyse it and think about it for more than five seconds. It has been pitiful. This is a Government bankrupt of ideas. This is a Government that needs to leave. This is a Government that needs to be voted out of office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00228a5de57ea85a40e78a71d2553cfb8243\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a5de57ea85a40e78a71d2553cfb8243\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri): \u003C/span\u003EOh, it\u2019s really difficult to sit and listen to the previous speech from the National Party member Andrew Bayly because of the hoodwinking that National tries to do when it comes to financial statistics. We\u2019ve heard about the so-called high debt ratios. Well, New Zealand sits in the lower half of debt compared to our GDP of all the OECD. But, actually, the other statistic which the previous speaker didn\u2019t mention is how our relative incomes fare, and, actually, our relative incomes and income inequality are really low. That\u2019s what this Government has been seeking to address throughout these two terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBudget 2023 shows a Government that targets the support to those who need it. We take inflation seriously. We understand the urgency of climate change. But perhaps most importantly, we have a costed Budget, one where the numbers add up and where we are really clear and transparent about those numbers. I cannot say the same for the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EOf course, the cost of living has been hard for everybody. That is why this Government took the fees off the prescription charges so that there are free doctors\u2019 prescriptions for those who really need them. That is a double win. It means that people get their medicines on time, they can afford their medicines, but it also takes pressure off the health system. We don\u2019t see the same levels of chronic illness that we did prior to that happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere is cheaper childcare. There are the 20 free hours\u2019 early childhood education (ECE) for twoyear-olds, which makes a significant difference to families that are working\u2014for women, in particular, who want to get to back to the workplace where previously the economics haven\u2019t stacked up for them to do so. They now can make that choice to go back to work for their families, knowing that their families will be up to $138 a week better off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere is free or half-price public transport for children and young people. That\u2019s made a really big difference in my electorate for those who need to get out, not only to be able to contribute to society but also for their own mental health, who previously have been homebound. We have very high numbers of public transport users in the electorate of Taieri and they have told me the benefit that that has given them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also the winter energy payment. Now, let me make no mistake: in cold climates like Dunedin, this is an absolute game-changer for our families and, particularly, for our seniors. Let\u2019s be under no illusion: if this winter energy payment goes, that is going to mean that seniors are going to have to choose between putting food on their table or paying for heating in their house. I know that prior to the winter energy payment coming in, we had people who came down to our Labour rooms in Macandrew Road for social events simply to be able to get into a heated room. That\u2019s what they told me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe also have better pay for health and ECE workers and funding for 500 more nurses. When the previous speaker complained about what he described as the bloating of the Public Service, he was talking about nurses, he was talking about teachers. They are vital; we know that. That\u2019s why this Government has increased their pay and that is why we are continuing to bolster that workforce. If he wants to see cuts in those areas, that means that we will have fewer teachers in our schools; fewer nurses in our in our hospital system. It just doesn\u2019t make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EHe also talked about the Dunedin Hospital. Well, it is Labour who builds hospitals. The National Party talked a good game for years about building a hospital in Dunedin with absolutely no intention of building it. The good people of Dunedin and of Otago know that. That\u2019s why they are not buying the lines from the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat would happen under a National-ACT Government for all these particular initiatives is the free doctors prescriptions would go. Now, we know how difficult that will be for people. But what really concerns me about National\u2019s announcements to do with cancer funding is not only the lack of competition and the high price that New Zealand would pay for those medicines\u2014because there would be no competition; they\u2019ve been promised by politicians\u2014but it is a very, very dangerous precedent to have politicians meddling in something as fundamental as healthcare. That is really dangerous. How do we know that those politicians don\u2019t have vested interests? How do we know that they\u2019re not acting on behalf of particular family members? That is why we have clear rules around Pharmac. That\u2019s why politicians have stayed out of it, and that\u2019s the way it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen National start saying they\u2019re going to meddle with that, what else are they going to meddle with in terms of our really important democratic principles? What about 20 free hours\u2019 ECE for twoyear-olds? That will be gone. Changes to Working for Families: that will be cut. Half-price transport: cut. The winter energy payment: cut. Now, National said they won\u2019t cut it. Well, good luck to that, because if you\u2019re in Government with ACT\u2014which is what the reality would be if there was a change of Government\u2014they have made it very clear they will cut the winter energy payment. Minimum pay rises: frozen for three years, if not gone, depending on who you believe\u2014National or ACT. And yes, really tricky for my constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThey have made it very clear that they would raise the superannuation age. That is the superannuation scheme, the taonga of this country, introduced by the very good former member of my electorate, Sir Michael Cullen. They would tinker with that as well, and they would make it really difficult for our seniors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat happens about the tax cuts that National want to introduce? It\u2019s not only that they will benefit the rich but they won\u2019t be funded; they haven\u2019t been clear on where their funding has come from. So we\u2019ve heard from previous speakers on this side that there would be cuts to health, cuts to education, cuts to the environment. The reality of the tax cuts being proposed by the other side is that they will actually benefit the rich, and people need to be really clear about that. We know that it\u2019s hard for working families, but when people hear tax cuts, that sounds promising. They need to do the math. They need to understand where those tax cuts will go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EUnder an ACT regime, it is actually the lowest paid who would be paying $800 more per year, because the lowest tax threshold would actually increase, and so they would be paying $800 per year. Under National, a person earning $180,000 would pay $7,270 less per year, but a low-income earner, it\u2019s around $2.00 to $2.50 per week. That is the reality. Now, I don\u2019t think the richest New Zealanders need a tax cut and I don\u2019t think that ordinary New Zealanders think so. They\u2019ve been enticed by the rhetoric. They hear the words \u201Ctax cut\u201D, but they haven\u2019t done the maths to understand where that sits for them and what that will mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s not forget the high net worth individual research data that came out this year that shows some people in our society\u2014the top richest in our society\u2014pay a real tax rate of only around 9 percent. The rest of New Zealand\u2014middle New Zealand\u2014pay around 22 percent. That is the reality. That is the reality that caused Treasury to actually revise its figures upwards around the redistribution of wealth to say that the most wealth is concentrated in the top 26 percent of people, rather than the top 21 percent. That\u2019s what that data shows. So why would we want to give tax cuts to those people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, the other issue is just looking at how things will or won\u2019t be funded. We know that the National Party are not being clear about how they\u2019ll fund, particularly around transport, for example. Simeon Brown has said toll roads. Well, that\u2019s a lot of toll roads to make up for a $9.5 billion shortfall over 10 years. Nicola Willis has said transport would be hypothecated. She stopped saying that, so there\u2019s some disagreement now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut the leader has talked about allowing the CCP\u2014the Chinese Communist Party\u2014to fund roads in New Zealand, and I find it absolutely staggering, actually, that the media hasn\u2019t picked up on that more, and I say this as a co-chair of IPAC\u2014the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China. National either don\u2019t know how else to fund those roads or they\u2019re blatantly ignorant of the geopolitics happening in the world at the moment, including in our own backyard, in the Solomon Islands. Or there could be more sinister motives. Are they in the pocket of the CCP? I don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut if that\u2019s not the reality, the other thing that they possibly may do is raise GST. Why not? The National Party love GST. They\u2019ve said before that they wouldn\u2019t raise it. They raised it in 2010 under John Key. He tried to say that that was different from the promise that he broke, because it wasn\u2019t around funding deficits, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d164679fde0e41048568befa8b25ec4e\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The member who has just resumed her seat has made an allegation in Parliament questioning whether the National Party is in the pockets of the Chinese Communist Party. From my recollection, that\u2019s a breach of our Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f382a53aa0dd4f4bbbdba09d0e9f83b6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230ca9f00e6a448679b75986910961db9\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. In the final moments of the speech, I just ask New Zealanders to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022128a952e8d3d476cb965828b1649ec24\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time is up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf86a9b5707a4abc8abca92d6ff2314b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf86a9b5707a4abc8abca92d6ff2314b\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I want to talk about the opportunity that we have: together we could build an Aotearoa where every person has a warm, dry, secure, affordable home. Where that home gets some or most of its electricity from rooftop solar and rooftop wind, that\u2019s generated for community benefit\u2014not private profit. Where people have the opportunity to get public transport: fast, frequent electric buses, trains, light rail. Where they can walk to the shops. Where the kids can walk and cycle to school and the park and the playground and the sports fields. Where we\u2019re spending so much less time commuting in our cars. Where we have cleaner air and quieter streets\u2014except when people gather there, and people do gather there because it\u2019s not a traffic sewer anymore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe can build an Aotearoa where native birds and forest are regenerating; where our jobs that people do are actively restoring nature, helping each other, providing the caring support that is needed right across our communities. Where we\u2019re undoing the harms of our history of colonisation. Where M\u0101ori can get stolen land back\u2014we\u2019ve set up a framework for that\u2014and use that as an economic base to look after their wh\u0101nau. And now into the future where education is a human right, where tertiary education\u2014whatever it is, vocational, or at university, or at polytech or some other\u2014is something that anyone can access at any point without having to live in poverty. Where people\u2019s power bills are lower. Where we are combating the climate crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe work that we need to do is great. As a society, we have a lot of work to do to look after our people, to tackle the challenges of climate change, and to restore nature. Yet, we can do all of that but it does mean changing our priorities. In this Budget, I can say the Greens\u2014we\u2019re proud of the accomplishments of our Green Ministers and we have made a positive influence on this Government. There was a number of Green wins that will make a difference to people\u2019s lives, but they\u2019re too little and it\u2019s almost too late. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EPeople need to know, at home, that in the next few weeks they have a choice. They have a choice, and they can ensure that we have a Government that is bold enough to take on the systemic inequality in our tax system\u2014where, right now, New Zealand ranks 136 out of 161 countries in terms of an equitable tax system. We can change that. We can ensure that our Government agencies have the funding that they need to provide the services that people need, like free dental care. How amazing would it be if every New Zealander could access the dental care that they need, when they need it? That\u2019s something we could do together. How amazing would it be if we were making Government grants and loans available to everyone to be able to put rooftop solar on their houses, to insulate their homes, to upgrade their appliances, and switch off fossil fuels for good? That would lower their power bills. It would help reduce fossil fuel use, which we have to end very, very quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere is such a stark choice, and I don\u2019t blame people for being disappointed. Because while there\u2019s some good stuff in this Budget, it is not going fast enough or far enough to tackle the systemic inequality that we still have in our society. People are feeling the pain, but that will continue to happen. Climate change means we are going to see more frequent and intense severe storms. We\u2019ll have times of drought. We need to rapidly reduce our fossil fuel use to zero, and we can work with nature to help both make our communities more resilient, and to ensure that we\u2019re reducing our emissions and restoring biodiversity at the same time\u2014because people know that\u2019s what really matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat matters is if you have a home, if you\u2019re able to power it, if you have enough resource to put healthy kai on the table, if you have some form of stability in your life\u2014and you know, whether you rent or you own your house, you should have the right to that stability. Our communities are going to need to cooperate on a scale that we have never before cooperated if we are going to survive and thrive in the 21st century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve seen reports, and I\u2019m sure many other New Zealanders have seen the scale of the tragic and devastating fires in Canada that are raging right now, the unprecedented storms that hit Aotearoa but that have been hitting other parts of the world with flooding. There is a cost to that and we do not have the luxury of carrying on like we have in the past. Most of the changes\u2014if not all of them\u2014that we need to make to reduce fossil fuel use, to live sustainably in harmony with our environment, with a stable climate, will actually enrich people\u2019s lives. They will actually make lives better. I tell you what they won\u2019t do. It won\u2019t line the pockets of the billionaires who have been making tons of money off of the sale of fossil fuels, which are slowly killing the planet\u2014and now rapidly, potentially, killing the planet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo yeah, the Green Party makes no apology about standing here and saying the system needs to change and it can change, but we need a more equitable distribution and access to resources for that to work. We need to have a clear plan. We cannot rely on the goodwill of billionaires or a hundred millionaires to come to the rescue and save us when we are being hit by severe weather events. We can\u2019t rely on them to donate through charity to ensure that we have the public services and infrastructure that people need to live good lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOnly the Green Party has consistently been standing in this House for over 25 years saying, \u201CClimate change is real, wake up, we need to do something about it.\u201D Only the Green Party has been standing here saying, \u201CWe can have an economic system that actually looks after people and protects our planet.\u201D That\u2019s the whole point of it. But we are different than the parties on the right, and so while people right now might be concerned that the Labour Government has not been as competent as it could be, I have to agree. OK. Tunnelled light rail in Auckland makes zero sense. Two new tunnels for cars under the Auckland Harbour make zero sense. The enormous amount of money being promised on massively carbon-intensive infrastructure projects that will provide little to no benefit to people\u2019s ability to move around the city is absolutely astounding. The National Party and the ACT Party will take us backwards much further and faster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo people at home need to know if they are dissatisfied with the status quo, with the cost of living, with the fact that we\u2019re having to deal with increased storm events, with the fact that the health system is not yet where it should be, with the fact that housing is still too unaffordable, that rents are still going up: you have a choice. People at home, people of New Zealand: you have a choice to vote for the Green Party. We have a clear, consistent message. We have delivered in Government. We have been a positive influence. We have brought forward the home insulation programme that both the National Party and the Labour Party claim a success\u2014that was our co-founder, Jeanette Fitzsimons, who did the work to bring that to New Zealand, and it has had enormous benefits and it has carried on. It has created jobs, it has helped communities, but we can do so much more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe public transport projects that the Green Party has consistently advocated for have been proven to be a success when people in the National Party were saying they\u2019d be a white elephant, like the Northern Busway and the electrification of Auckland\u2019s rail network. We campaigned hard for the City Rail Link and it hasn\u2019t been delivered as fast as we would have liked; National Government at the time delayed on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAt the time National was last in Government, the carbon price was $2 a tonne and there was absolutely no Government direction to invest in things that would address climate change or that would really help nature. We had a Predator Free 2050 goal with absolutely zero funding to achieve it. Now last term we saw Jobs for Nature make a huge difference to our natural areas, creating jobs that will restore nature. We can continue to do this, but to do this we have to change the system. And to change the system the Greens need to be at the heart of a coalition Government, with many more MP\u2019s and many more Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI see the opportunity that we have. I know that New Zealanders care about nature. I know that they care about pulling our weight in climate change. I know that they want more investment in public transport, rail, and coastal shipping. There was a poll recently that showed that 72 percent of New Zealanders think the priority for transport investment should be public transport, rail, and coastal shipping. And yet the three other major parties in this Parliament all are promising more roads. Some are promising it financed by overseas interests, at which we will definitely have to pay back at a much higher rate, and the Labour Party\u2019s still not going far enough in seizing the opportunity and the desire from the public for better public transport. Only the Green Party can help deliver this vision and we can do it with your vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c96ca3e8240146119373d54d0c8c0fe1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c96ca3e8240146119373d54d0c8c0fe1\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a call on the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill, and it is with great pleasure that I do so. I have spoken before in this House about how in the good old days when I taught economics, we would have parties on Budget day. Yes, there are people in this country who are excited about this process, and I think it\u2019s because they understand this is a democratic way that we decide, as a society, how best to invest in our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m wondering if, actually, it would be better to have our little party on this day, because what we\u2019ve had an opportunity to do since Budget day is go out into our communities and listen to people when they say, \u201COh, it\u2019s wonderful that you\u2019ve continued to invest in this great project.\u201D, or \u201CIt\u2019s great that you\u2019ve decided to back us in this way.\u201D\u2014whether it\u2019s been with public housing, whether it\u2019s been in health, whether it\u2019s been in education or infrastructure, we have made sure that we are investing in our society, and I think it kind of feels like today is a much more appropriate day, and I\u2019ll be giving that advice to my former colleagues who are excited about economics in their classrooms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003ESo this Budget has been pretty unique, and I can understand why the Minister of Finance was so proud of it. That ability to balance the significant challenges being faced every day by New Zealanders around the cost of living, but at the same time, moving to a more sustainable way of approaching a budget\u2014having that more sustainable approach while we have still been able to push back with COVID investment and sustain and build our public services that everyone holds so dear, and also to respond to those significant weather events in January and February. How do we manage to do this? How do we manage to pat our heads and rub our tummies at the same time? I think I\u2019d like to reflect on a few parts; but I\u2019d like to start with the really big, really global context and pull it right back to a particular example in education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003ESo when we talk about our Wellbeing Budget\u2014and this is not the first one, but it is world-leading. The fact that our Budget is built on OECD and best practice internationally; and it is world leading. We have a Living Standards Framework that allows us to be inter-generational in our thinking and our investment. This isn\u2019t about just what others would call \u201Cjust spending money\u201D. When we keep hearing challenges from the other side, it\u2019s all about making cuts to spending, when what every line in this Budget is about is investing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EWhen you look at our Living Standards Framework and you look at the dashboard and it talks about the indicators of the wealth of Aotearoa New Zealand, you\u2019d think, from the other side, that would simply be the financial and physical capital that our nation possess, but that\u2019s only one aspect of wealth. We\u2019ve heard so many speakers speak since Budget day about our natural environment\u2014the wealth that that provides us\u2014and this Budget invests in that. Our social cohesion, our human capability\u2014these are aspects of wealth that our Treasury values and makes sure is considered when we put our Budget together. So that approach\u2014that ability to be thinking inter-generationally, to be progressive, to be ambitious for our nation, for our economy, our people, our whenua\u2014is why this Budget looks very different from anything that could possibly have been suggested from the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just going to narrow it down a little bit, and I am going to talk about wealth with regards to human capability. When we think about education, we\u2019ve heard about the thousands of classrooms that have already been built and the commitment in this Budget to building 300 more. The four new schools, the 175 small rural schools that are getting retrofitted. The significant investment in the place within which our students learn and our teachers teach, we\u2019ve got to make sure that they are warm, they are dry, they are fit for purpose. We invest so much in our students, and they deserve to have good places to learn so we\u2019re investing in them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re investing in our tertiary system. We know that not just the Apprenticeship Boost, which is going to be enabling tens of thousands more workers to become more highly skilled\u2014that\u2019s 57,000 to date; another 30,000. This is about enabling a just transition. This is about making sure that we invest in our human capability and capacity to make sure that we are where we want to be in a generation\u2019s time. We\u2019ve had the largest increase in investment in our university system in 20 years, because we know it isn\u2019t just the significant commitment we\u2019ve made to the reform of vocational education through Apprenticeship Boost and supporting employers who are taking on those magnificent people who have so much potential but in our universities as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EAt the other end, we\u2019ve heard a lot in this House about the 20 hours\u2019 additional early childhood education. We know that by having these incredible early childhood educators, these experts, who really are at the most critical part of human development, being able to support families and support children as they start off on their lives\u2014it\u2019s really exciting. And talking about having to think intergenerationally, I think that\u2019s such a fine example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe continuation of school lunches and, of course, making sure that not only do they have full tummies but actually they can get to school. The continuation of under-13s having free public transport. For our young people, under 25, every penny counts to be able to have half-price public transport. That isn\u2019t just about making sure that life\u2019s a little bit more affordable for our young people but that\u2019s about having a modal shift and making sure that you get into the habit of using that train or that bus\u2014that\u2019s an investment, not just in our environment but in growing a great society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EAt this point, I want to talk about\u2014because I could talk about a huge number of wonderful things that are happening in education, but I just want to come on to one more, in particular; narrow it down a little bit more. I want to talk about alternative education. It is our most vulnerable students, the ones who are at risk or are already disengaged from mainstream education that we\u2019ve seen those students and we\u2019re investing in them, because we know that they have such potential and they deserve our backing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI just want to reflect for a moment about what an alternative budget might look like from the other side of the House. While we choose to invest in our schools with buildings, with investing in our teachers, with supporting the schools through investing in those who are trying to bring their students back to class who\u2019ve been absent, we see on the other side of the House that they intend to\u2014when they see the challenges that our public education system is facing, they say, \u201CLet\u2019s just abandon them.\u201D On the other side, they want to abandon our public education system. They want to say, \u201CGood luck. We\u2019ll cash you up and you can become a charter school.\u201D That\u2019s what they want to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI want to be very clear in this House today what charter schools are and where they came from. We know they are a direct result in the United States when in 1954, as a result of Brown v Board, they outlawed segregation in public schools in the United States. So there were parts of that community who didn\u2019t like integration, so they decided to set up schools where there was more choice. That choice isn\u2019t for our most vulnerable students and their families; that is a choice those who sit outside of the school. What charter schools do is they give more choice for those who are inside the school gate to exclude students and say, \u201CYou know what, we\u2019re just going to look after the ones we want to look after and good luck to the rest of you.\u201D That is not an investment approach. That is not something that I can see Treasury supporting when we are looking at building the wealth of human capability, and that is one thing I\u2019m really proud of in this Budget. So I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bec1c1ee55274dcd9e77e8880600f5f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bec1c1ee55274dcd9e77e8880600f5f4\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a call in opposition to the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. This is the bill that Parliament passes in order for Parliament to spend billions and billions and billions of dollars of taxpayers\u2019 money. We\u2019ve had people say it\u2019s a great tradition and there should be parties. To some extent, that\u2019s true. It is a great thing that we have no taxation without representation. It is a good thing that the Government\u2014the Prime Minister and his Ministers and their Government departments\u2014cannot spend money without it being debated transparently in this House and examined by select committees so that people know at least where their taxes are going. That\u2019s a wonderful process and a tradition of parliamentary democracy we should hold dear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EOne of the problems, though, is that when we see what this Government is doing with our money, we almost wish that we didn\u2019t know. You actually think ignorance could nearly be bliss, because we have a Government that, in round terms, has increased Government expenditure from $87 billion to $137 billion in just five years. It\u2019s increased the amount that it spends every year by 70 percent. That money, I know, has partly been required because of inflation\u2014that much is true\u2014and it\u2019s also spread amongst more people. It\u2019s surprising how fast the New Zealand population rises\u2014we\u2019re not actually the team of 5 million; we\u2019re over 5.2 million now. So, to some extent, the extra spending is needed because there are more people, and this Government\u2019s management of the economy has led to so much inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, once you strip away the growth in the population and the amount of inflation people have seen with the cost rising in everything they buy, well, then you find the amount of money that\u2019s spent per person after inflation has risen 29 percent. The number of people employed in the core Public Service has gone up from 47,000 up to 62,000\u2014almost exactly 29 percent as well. The question might be: what have we got, at the end of the day? What are we getting for all of this extra taxpayer money being spent by the Government through this process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EYou see, Mr Speaker, that\u2019s where things get a bit tough. I\u2019ve challenged, in this House, over this year, many times, Grant Robertson, the Minister of Finance; and Chris Hipkins, the Prime Minister, to explain how they are guessing better outcomes\u2014better outcomes\u2014not spending more money, but, actually: what is better, at the end of the day, for all of this extra money? A $50 billion, 70 percent increase in spending that means we\u2019re spending 29 percent more money per person after inflation, after population growth\u201429 percent more money on each person. What are they getting that they weren\u2019t getting five years ago for 29 percent extra?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s worse than that, because, while taxes have risen, a lot of that extra spending over the last five years has been paid for by borrowing. You see, this Government, in six Budgets, has increased debt by $121 billion. It\u2019s hard to put that in any kind of perspective. What is $121 billion? Well, if you say there\u2019s 5 million of us, then it\u2019s $24,000 of borrowing per person over six Budgets. That\u2019s $4,000 a year of Government borrowing for every person in this Chamber\u2014in fact, every person in this country. For a family of four, the Government\u2019s been borrowing 16 grand a year on their behalf\u2014but they\u2019ll have to pay in taxes one day\u2014in order to try and get the same results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd where are those results? Where is it that this Government is now doing better for its people, for the money that\u2019s gone in? Well, it\u2019s not in education. In broad terms, over the last 10 years, we\u2019ve gone from about 70 percent of kids regularly attending, to about 60 percent\u2014a disaster. We have gone from around 5 percent who are chronically absent, to around 8 percent. There are fewer kids going to school, even though the Government are spending 38 percent more on education. What do the kids get when they go there? Well, they\u2019re learning less; they\u2019re tumbling down the international league tables in reading, in maths, and in science. Kiwi kids know less and can do less than their older brothers and sisters and uncles and aunts who are 20 years older. In fact, they\u2019ve got about half a year less learning than kids of the same age 20 years ago. This is a disaster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat about transport? Do we have more roads with fewer potholes that get us where we would like to go faster and safer? Actually, the road toll has flatlined, the speed limits have come down anyway, and the potholes are damaging people\u2019s cars up and down this country nearly every day. This is, again, a disaster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat about law and order? Are we getting better value for money or safer streets? Is it safer to run a dairy? Is it safer to run a jewellery store? Is it safe to run anything in this country? No. Victimisation, according to the Ministry of Justice\u2019s own surveys, has got worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut, then, there\u2019s healthcare. What about healthcare? Do we have more doctors and nurses? Are people getting more drugs, are they finding it easier to get into their GP, and are the waiting lists getting shorter? No, they\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo, in every area, this Government is spending more money\u2014even after inflation; even after population growth\u2014and they\u2019re getting worse results. That takes a special kind of incompetence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhy has this happened, and what will the next Government, in just\u2014what is it now?\u201452 days, do about it? Well, first of all, we need to get back to giving the chief executives of Government departments clear objectives, and then say, \u201CIf you do well, you get paid more.\u201D You see, Mr Speaker, in every private business on the NZX, the chief executive gets paid more if the company performs. In New Zealand\u2019s Government, we have people who are responsible for multibillion dollar organisations\u2014the Ministry of Social Development, the Ministry of Health, and the Ministry of Education\u2014and they get no reward for doing better, and no penalty if their agency lets New Zealanders down. They\u2019re not even trying to measure what they\u2019re trying to achieve. No wonder we\u2019re spending more money and getting worse results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo one of the things the next Government has to do is follow the Australians\u2019 reporting on Government services\u2019 objectives and start giving the chief executives of the departments clear writing instructions on what we need to achieve. If they do well, they do well, and if they don\u2019t do well, they might lose their job or some of their salary\u2014that\u2019s how the real world works, and it\u2019s how Government departments need to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EFor example, the Ministry of Social Development should be measured on how many people get off the dole and into work, and how long they stay in work. We\u2019re not even trying to do that, right now. We\u2019re just throwing money at every problem, and still the results get worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EJust this weekend, the ACT Party released a policy to show how we can make sure that New Zealand is better off and better served by its Government departments by actually telling them what we want and demanding they achieve it, and rewarding them when they do. Then, we start cutting Government waste. We cut the Government departments that can\u2019t produce any good outcomes. We cut the enormous bureaucracy that\u2019s grown by 15,000 people\u2014from 47,000 to 62,000\u2014and achieves nothing. ACT\u2019s alternative budget shows how we could reduce expenditure by over $8 billion a year and nobody would notice. People say, \u201COh, that\u2019ll be the end of the world.\u201D Just remember: this Government has increased expenditure by $50 billion a year. We want to take it back $8 billion. You\u2019re still $42 billion up in five years. The difference is we want to get some more results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat can you do if you reduce expenditure by $8 billion a year? Well, you can give tax cuts. You can actually start paying back debt faster. ACT\u2019s alternative budget will not only demand better results from Government departments, it will also cut people\u2019s taxes. So someone on the average wage\u2014$78,000 a year full-time\u2014would get to keep $2,200 more of their own money each and every year to fight the crippling price rises that New Zealanders up and down this country are facing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThat is the kind of fiscal management that this country needs so that people feel their efforts in life make a difference\u2014that, if they work hard, save, and invest, life will actually get better, rather than having their money and their effort poured into the gaping maw of this Labour Government; this Labour Government that wants to give kids mandatory lessons in financial literacy. Well, here\u2019s another idea: I think the children of New Zealand could give financial literacy lessons to Labour, and we\u2019d all be much better off. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u00223367154d5a00435ca351de1fb7be0434\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223367154d5a00435ca351de1fb7be0434\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my privilege to be taking a call on the imprest supply bill and the appropriation bill. I was recently at a retirement village in the Waimakariri electorate, having a yarn about what happens in the House, and one of the things that came up was, \u201CDan, maybe it would be good to discuss the mechanics of what you\u2019re discussing when you\u2019re in the House?\u201D So for those listening in today, the imprest supply Acts are a regular part of the annual Budget cycle, and the Crown cannot spend public money, or incur expenses or capital expenditure without an appropriation or other authority of Parliament. So spending that occurs outside of these categories is considered unauthorised expenditure, and the third reading of the appropriation bill is the final stage in Parliament for passing Budget 2023 by appropriating the various appropriations set out in the schedules of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EI first want to highlight how this Budget continues to embody the spirit of our independent, nuclear-free New Zealand, which is something that\u2019s not discussed very often. Recently, we discussed in the House the time that we sent one of our Ministers to protest against nuclear tests at Mururoa Atoll. As he sailed vessels across the Pacific\u2014very important in the Pacific with what\u2019s happening right now; it\u2019s always important to look outwards while everyone else is looking in\u2014it led to the Treaty of Rarotonga, where we worked with our Pacific neighbours to establish the world\u2019s first international nuclear-free zone, known as the Treaty of Rarotonga. This Budget continues that tradition of Pacific cooperation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis Government is investing into building up that Pacific resilience with a $14.1 million investment in Pacific community wellbeing. It aims to strengthen the capability and leadership of our Pacific workforce. There are also capital injections of over $16 million planned for 2023-24 as part of our blue Pacific investment, and we\u2019re also investing $1 million into the Pacific Cooperation Foundation for the promotion of mutual understanding between New Zealanders and other countries and the people of the Pacific. These are just some of the initiatives in this Budget that build and strengthen our special relationship with our Pacific neighbours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EI also want to touch on what this Budget does to ease the cost of living. I\u2019m proud that through this Budget we\u2019re tackling the cost of living by putting money back into people\u2019s pockets with cheaper childcare, free prescriptions, and free or half-price public transport for young New Zealanders, and we\u2019re easing the pressure on struggling families by providing targeted support that won\u2019t drive up inflation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s a no-frills Budget, but it suits the times, with a particular focus on support for families under the pump. There are things like 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education for two-year-olds, the $5 prescription fee being scrapped, also free public transport for our under-13s\u2014very important\u2014and it being half-price for under-25s, and then we can never forget the extra 100,000 more Warmer Kiwi Homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EWhen I\u2019m out and about in the electorate\u2014and I\u2019ve been doing a lot of constituency clinics over the last few weeks and doorknocking, out in Pegasus, which is just north of Woodend\u2014people are concerned about what the scrapping of fair pay agreements might mean if an ACT-National coalition came into Government. They\u2019re also worried about what the freezing of the minimum wage would mean to them and their families and they\u2019re worried about the investment hole that\u2019s in the strategic infrastructure plan of what National is proposing\u2014you know, that foreign investment and what that might mean to everyday Kiwis\u2014because they certainly don\u2019t want to be tenants in their own country. With the Labour Government, when we invest in infrastructure, the people of New Zealand will 100\u00A0percent own it, and that\u2019s very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThe other thing I just want to touch on is what they feel is at risk. There are a lot of working people in the Waimakariri electorate. There are a lot of tradies and people in physical jobs, and they\u2019re worried about the increase in the retirement age. They\u2019ll get to that stage where they\u2019re not in the position to work an extra two years because their bodies are wrecked, and with a Labour Government, we are committed to keeping the retirement age at 65, which is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re also strengthening the economy by investing in the basics for growth with skills that will better position our workforce for infrastructure\u2014science, technology, and the economy\u2014to address the shortages in our workforce. The economy is through the worst, with inflation having peaked and returning to the target range next year. We\u2019ve got good growth, tourism is back, and more workers are plugging our skills shortages\u2014we\u2019re seeing that firsthand in the Waimakariri electorate, where, again, the Waimakariri economy continues to grow strongly, up by 4.3 percent over the year to June 2023\u2014and then GDP is up 1.7 percent per annum in the June 2023 quarter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EWaimakariri\u2019s housing market remains relatively strong relative to both Christchurch and the rest of the country. Tourism activity in Waimakariri has benefited from the return of international visitors to New Zealand over the past year, and with tourists\u2019 electronic card spending in Waimakariri up by 14 percent over the year to June 2023, there\u2019s a good story to tell in North Canterbury. Guest nights at commercial accommodation in Waimakariri have also grown by 38 percent to the year June 2023, which is very promising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EAlso, I just want to talk about jobseeker support. Recipients in the Waimakariri District in the year to June 2023\u2014that figure has decreased by 7.6 percent compared to a year earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ENon-residential building consents to the value of over $58 million were issued in the Waimakariri District during the year to June 2023. So this is an increase of around 90 percent over the year to June\u00A02023 compared to the year earlier, and this has placed us in a great position to build for tomorrow in North Canterbury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also providing a massive boost to our nation\u2019s infrastructure across the country, which has been tested during the recent flooding and cyclone. We saw roads and bridges as well as telecommunications and power wiped out too easily, and we can\u2019t let that happen again. We\u2019re building back more resilience so that we can be better prepared for more extreme weather events in the future, and some of those examples include 300 new classrooms to be built across New Zealand. We\u2019ve got 100 more resilient roads and 3,000 additional public homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ESo things are tough right now, and we totally understand that, but the numbers are moving in the right direction and we\u2019re easing the costs for families through targeted investments that will avoid stoking inflation. I\u2019m proud of what this Government is doing for working battlers and young strivers, in particular. We\u2019re creating opportunities through our prudent management of the economy and building a New Zealand where there are greater opportunities and access to homeownership as we build back better. We\u2019re getting inflation under control and back in the target range next year. We\u2019ve got half-price public transport, and then also free apprenticeships and innovation investments to prepare our workforce for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EIn the electric vehicle (EV) space, we\u2019ve got 23 EV multi-charging hubs around New Zealand. Again, in the Waimakariri electorate, they\u2019re springing up in Woodend and out at Rangiora, which is great to see, and pretty much almost every town around New Zealand is getting additional EV chargers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019re also seeing major investments in things like science and skills, which is great, and we\u2019re growing our tech and gaming workforce, which is, in my view, a form of investment. Last week, my colleagues and I in the Pacific caucus visited PikPok, which is just in town here. They are world leaders in the gaming sector, and it was great to chat to them about the 20 percent rebate for game development and how that sector is benefiting. PikPok is a home-grown business here in Wellington and they employ some of our best and brightest people in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThe gaming sector shows some great promise, and so that development scene\u2014we\u2019ve actually saved it from going offshore to other nations. So it is very, very important that we grow, raise, train, and sustain that workforce for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EGetting out and about in Waimakariri, people know that they have a clear choice. They have a clear choice about who to vote for this election. The movement for Labour out there is fantastic, and I\u2019m really looking forward to hitting this election on 1 September. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022af3bc918ae3f4b87a303a700008d19ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af3bc918ae3f4b87a303a700008d19ef\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is the final debate on this year\u2019s Budget. Frankly, we\u2019re on the second to last week of Parliament and this is the last will and testament of this Government, and what a grim set of accounts it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got 6 percent inflation. Remember, about two years ago the Minister of Finance and the Reserve Bank Governor said, \u201COh, inflation will be transitory. It\u2019ll come; it\u2019ll go. It\u2019s going to come down fast.\u201D Two years later, we\u2019ve still got 6 percent inflation. We\u2019re in recession, and the Government has managed to increase debt at the same time from $5 billion when they took over to $91 billion in five years. They\u2019ve increased Government spending by 80 percent, and I defy a single person in this country to be able to stand up and say, \u201CWe\u2019ve got an 80 percent better outcome in education or health.\u201D, or any area of Government policy. So this Budget is the final Budget in what has been six calamitous years for the New Zealand economy and everything else that hangs off it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve heard, for the last few days and the last few weeks\u2014it seems to be the line from the Labour Government\u2019s spin machine that they\u2019re supposed to be empathetic, so they keep on saying, \u201CYes, times are tough. Yes, it\u2019s very tough times for New Zealanders. It\u2019s been a difficult three years.\u201D I heard the Prime Minister say, people are grumpy\u2014it\u2019s been a difficult time; very hard times. Well, they don\u2019t seem to appreciate that the reason for the hard times, primarily, is their own mismanagement of the economy and of this Government. They should take some responsibility for it and, frankly, hold their head in shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo what did they inherit? Six years ago, they inherited a strong, positive, upbeat economy in a strong, positive, upbeat country, where people looked and saw a great future for themselves and their family, were managed to absolutely reverse the flow across the Tasman so that more people were coming to New Zealand from Australia than the other way around, and people felt like they could get ahead. Unfortunately\u2014and everybody sees this right here, right now\u2014too many New Zealanders are concluding, the 35,000 of them that left to go to Australia this year, that they don\u2019t actually have great opportunities in this country because the economy is not strong, because the cost of living is too high and inflation is not under control under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve seen the $175 extra a week they are paying on average rents, driven largely by the misconceived and ill-considered housing policies of this Government and their war on landlords, which has forced costs on to renters. They see the 9.6 percent increase in the cost of vegetables\u2014the cauliflower, the squash, the pumpkins\u2014and the only thing that the Government can come up with is a hare-brained scheme to exclude fresh fruit and vegetables from GST, which has gone down like a lead balloon because nobody can see the logic for it. They can\u2019t understand why it wouldn\u2019t apply to meat or nappies or any other thing, and all it would do would be to mess up a simple system. They\u2019ve seen the $700 increase in fortnightly mortgage costs under this Government, primarily because they haven\u2019t been able to control inflation properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why National has come forward with a strong plan to get on top of the cost of living. We\u2019re going to get the Reserve Bank focused on its knitting, which is fighting inflation, not doing all the other things that the Governor is keen to do, and the law requires them around employment. Secondly, we\u2019ll get Government spending under control\u2014that 80 percent increase in spending with very little to show for it is one of the reasons why we\u2019ve had this burst of inflation in this country. Then we\u2019ve got to deal with a Government that keeps on adding costs to businesses, particularly small businesses, and then wonders why things are more expensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard about the fair pay agreements, the misnamed \u201Cfair pay agreements\u201D\u2014what they really are: mandatory union deals to make our workplaces less flexible and less adaptable at a time when they need to be both those things. We\u2019re going to repeal that; we\u2019ll get rid of it, because we need to have flexibility in our employment relationships so that people can actually sort things out for themselves and work out what works for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019ve got to reduce taxes so that people aren\u2019t paying ever more taxes because the Government is using that old trick\u2014that old trick that goes back hundreds of years: if you have lots of inflation and people creep up the income tax brackets, they pay more tax, which is why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d43992a1ce9344fea0b5e8e9d6c9e6a3\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Then you\u2019re going to up GST; that\u2019s what you\u2019re gonna do, isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a61950fc89694229864e08bcabcf68d8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That member\u2019s got an opportunity for a valedictory soon. But we\u2019ve got, on average, $22,000 per household more in tax that has been taken from this Government. Can you believe that? New Zealanders, on average, are paying $22,000 a year more in tax under this Government\u2014$22,000. You could actually get a decent car for $22,000 every year, for the extra money that this Government is spending on tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd what are we actually getting for it? What are you getting for it? Are we getting better education? Oh, no; the kids don\u2019t even go to school. We don\u2019t get better education. Are we getting better healthcare? Well, no, you can wait for ever for anything. You\u2019re not going to be getting inoculated from the various diseases because that\u2019s not working. You\u2019re going to have to wait ages for your hip replacements, Mr Speaker\u2014I\u2019m sure you\u2019re not needing one yet. For all these things, we\u2019re not seeing the improvement that we should be from the money that\u2019s being spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, of course, that\u2019s only just the start of it. I mean, heaven forbid, if Grant Robertson got another chance to have another go at it, he\u2019d be introducing his insurance tax; the jobs tax, which would be adding another 800 bucks or so a year on to annual bills; they\u2019d be coming back to their wealth tax. If the Greens had their say, they\u2019d be coming back to the wealth tax. So when it comes to the economy, this is the end of the Budget and it\u2019s a woeful Budget and it\u2019s the end of six years of economic mismanagement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen we come to the other things. What do we come to? Well, what about law and order? What progress has been made on that? Now, if anybody is tempted to vote for the Greens, let me suggest this one to you, because it is their stated policy\u2014and I\u2019m glad we\u2019ve got Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March here. It is the stated policy of the Greens that if there\u2019s a warrant out for your arrest and you\u2019re on the run, you should still get your benefit, because it\u2019s a nasty thing that the Government currently does that if you\u2019re on the run with a warrant out for your arrest, we cut your benefit. But, oh no, the Greens think you should have some money when you\u2019re on the run and there\u2019s a warrant out for your arrest; therefore, you should still have your benefit. Well, I think that sums up everything you need to know about the Greens and law and order and welfare. I think it also sums up how it all would work in a Labour-Greens Government if they had their time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve actually got to restore some law and order in this country and actually have real consequences for crime. We go round the doorsteps and what do we hear from people? They\u2019re worried about what\u2019s going on in their communities. They see the increase in violent crime\u201440\u00A0percent increase in violent crime\u2014and they are perplexed and confused and can\u2019t understand why the only priority of the Government that\u2019s been clearly articulated in the justice sector is to reduce the prison population by 30 percent, irrespective of what\u2019s going on in the community. That makes no sense to anybody and it is part of the reason why we\u2019re having this breakdown on law and order that we\u2019re seeing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s part of the reason why, frankly, Countdown is having to spend $45 million on fancy new trolleys that stop people from running out of their supermarkets without paying for the food, which is a metaphor. It is a metaphor for everything that\u2019s wrong. I\u2019ll have you know that I\u2019m a regular at Glen Innes Pak \u2019N Save. It\u2019s a good supermarket and they shouldn\u2019t have to have electric trolleys that clam up because there is a breakdown in law and order in our supermarkets. So it\u2019s a metaphor for how things have got out of control. Yet, we\u2019ve got a Government whose only target in the whole justice sector is to make sure that we have fewer people in prison, irrespective of what\u2019s going on in our community. We think that\u2019s wrong, it\u2019s misguided, and we\u2019re going to change it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also going to get a little bit of clearer guidance around the sentencing principles so that we restrict the ability of judges to massively reduce sentences. So we\u2019ve got to fix the economy. We\u2019ve got to restore law and order, the third and fourth areas around health and education, and everybody is concerned about the decline in standards from education. We\u2019ve got a budget here. Like I say, the Government has increased spending by 80 percent\u201480 percent. It has gone up to $137 billion a year, $61 billion more than what they started with, and yet, in education, fewer kids are going to school and they\u2019re not learning the basics. So we\u2019ve got to get back to the basics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to health, it\u2019s about priorities, basically. We can\u2019t do everything. This Government thinks it\u2019s better that families that can afford to spend $5 to get their prescriptions shouldn\u2019t have to pay that money, and yet they don\u2019t have the resources to invest in 13 cancer drugs that will make a real difference to a thousand people a year. We think it\u2019s far better to use scarce healthcare resources to help those people who have got real serious cancers rather than just putting another $5 into the hands of people who can perfectly afford to pay for their prescriptions. Now, that, to me, sums up muddled priorities. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022319f2dc4b4ef4f849052f8f1a1535d2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022319f2dc4b4ef4f849052f8f1a1535d2c\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call in relation to the Estimates and the imprest supply bill. I brought along a copy of my wellbeing Budget 2023. I do carry this around with me as I\u2019m travelling, because there is so much in here for New Zealanders\u2014there is so much in here for New Zealanders. But a Budget is more than a collection of bound papers; it\u2019s been said several times through the Estimates debate: a Budget is a moral document. It is more than a set of papers; it is an inherently ethical undertaking we go through when we\u2019re deciding what to spend funds on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThis is Labour\u2019s fifth Wellbeing Budget, and I think there is some poetry that the phrase \u201CWellbeing Budget\u201D now rolls off our tongues, like the two terms are inherently connected. But they aren\u2019t\u2014they\u2019re not\u2014for every party around this House. They are a choice that this Government has made to put people\u2019s wellbeing first. We have done that consistently for the last five years. We\u2019ve put people first in terms of making the most of opportunities that are available to them and responding to their wellbeing needs and responding in a crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI must say I was actually kind of tickled to hear David Seymour speak about a special kind of incompetence, but perhaps I will be kind, rather than using those words about him, and say that what we have in his case is perhaps a perplexing kind of amnesia. Mr Goldsmith appears to be demonstrating the same kind of amnesia. Both of them asked what we\u2019ve seen in terms of the results of our Government spending over the last five years. There has been something we\u2019ve gone through called the COVID experience. \u201CWhat have we seen?\u201D\u2014what have we seen? The lowest morbidity rates in the OECD; the lowest hospitalisation rates in the OECD. Lives, health, and wellbeing may not matter to that side of the House, but it does on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe put people first, and Budget 2023 is no exception. In north-west Auckland, our communities, our businesses, our wh\u0101nau are still feeling the effects of the Auckland anniversary floods and Cyclone Gabrielle. I have walked through the homes of people in Massey who have been affected. I\u2019ve spoken to the red-stickered residents of Muriwai. There are devastating impacts that continue in those communities, which is why Budget 2023 builds on the $889 million already provided to provide an immediate response to those events, with supporting the reinstatement of our roads, our rail networks, repairing and rebuilding homes and damaged schools as well. We invested in providing direct support, in terms of temporary accommodation, to those who were suffering most, but also we recognised that there were wellbeing needs and we provided counselling support, including to some of the children who had been affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EAgain, I went out to Muriwai and a family spoke to me about the huge numbers of children who went to the local school who were affected, where Visionwest went in and provided immediate support. But, for us, it\u2019s not just about responding to the immediate; it\u2019s also about keeping a weather eye on the future, which is why we also look to protect communities from future climate impacts, including a $100 million fund to help councils invest in future flood resilience. Support for today, building for tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe are a Government that is about putting people first, and supporting families is absolutely key to that. At one stage in my life, my husband and I had three children under 5\u00BD years old, and almost every conversation I had with others who were parenting kids of that age would be about what the tipping point was: when can you afford to go back to work, go back into your workplace? The 20\u00A0hours of free early childhood education for two-year-olds is going to be a game-changer for so many families, who can make that choice when they want to, which for many would be earlier, and for those who would have chosen the option anyway, it puts extra money in their pockets. I think of the families who attend the Seeds Early Learning Centre just up the road from my electorate office. They will be saving up to $133.20 per week. That is huge. That is this Government addressing the cost of living for families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe are about putting people first. We are about bread and butter issues. The $5 co-payment issue\u2014we removed that. While it might seem small to members opposite, I\u2019ve spoken to pharmacists, including one on the corner of Moire Road in Massey, who spoke to me about the fact that people who lived locally and had never\u2014never\u2014picked up their prescriptions before were coming to pick up their prescriptions. This is a game-changer for people in terms of the cost of living, but it\u2019s also smart policy that\u2019s squarely focused on multiple benefits. The fact that these are people who can pick up their prescriptions means that they won\u2019t be turning up a month or two months later at Waitakere Hospital or at North Shore Hospital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI have a wonderful youth advisory group in Upper Harbour who talk to me about the issues that matter most to them. I spoke to them about what matters most in Budget 2023, and they spoke about the free fares for young people. They spoke about the half-price fares for under-25s. There is a huge cohort of young people in Upper Harbour who travel across the city to get to school, to get to university. This is another example of a policy that will not only benefit them, in terms of addressing the cost of living, but also has a multiplier effect in terms of the reduction of carbon emissions as young people start to embed taking public transport in their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThis is not a Budget that\u2019s just about sound policy, though. I\u2019m also proud of the methodology of this Budget. This is a Budget that sees women. For the first time, Budget 2023 includes a gender budgeting snapshot. Gender budgeting is a powerful tool for understanding how and to what extent people will be affected differently by initiatives, depending on their gender. It applies a gender lens in 15 agencies. That\u2019s triple the number from last year\u2019s pilot that have been using this methodology. It covers 27 initiatives. Which initiatives? Well, one is funding to permanently reinstate the Training Incentive Allowance, which will support sole parents and disabled people and their carers to enter higher education and training. Now, since 2021, the initiative has supported approximately 5,000 clients, of whom 90 percent have been women. There are several other initiatives that, because of this budgeting methodology, will influence what women have access to, including the digital tech industry transformation plan package, which aims to increase the number of women participating in the tech sector from 27 percent to 50 percent by 2030. This is a game-changer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve started to use the word \u201Cgame-changer\u201D far more frequently in the last six months, and the reason is because this is what people are telling me across the country. In Upper Harbour, I go into schools, and principals talk about what a game-changer it is that kids have access to free lunches in schools and free period products. I talk to people on the doors who talk about the winter energy payment being a game-changer in terms of their lives. These might seem small to that side of the House; they are game-changers for everyday New Zealanders. Under our Labour Government, you will continue to see these investments\u2014an increase in the minimum wage, access to medicines, funding supports for our minority communities, including through our essential ministries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EBudgets are moral documents; I wholeheartedly believe this to be true. I\u2019m incredibly proud to be part of a Government who, at every corner, in the face of crisis and in identifying opportunities for New Zealanders, puts people first and makes sure we all thrive together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfbf72b3a3b44a90a138547dd7212a98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfbf72b3a3b44a90a138547dd7212a98\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak in opposition to the appropriation and imprest supply bills. This Budget is a continuation of this Labour Government blowing out even their own spending limits. It\u2019s really important that we are under no illusion about how bad the situation is with our economy. We have $73 billion of debt\u2014the most in the history of our wonderful little country\u2014but when you team that also with high inflation; high interest rates; a recession; a current account balance worse than 40 other countries, then you see just how difficult our economic situation is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWhenever I\u2019m out in my community, people express to me their absolute disgust and despair at how the Government could possibly keep spending at the rate that it is. They compare how much they have had to haul back their farm, their business, their household spending in the face of a cost of living crisis and inflated prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI see farmers who are trying to face the reduced milk solids payout by going through their expenditure in their budgets, line by line, looking at where they can reduce or cut out completely expenditure. I see businesses going through their budgets trying to cut out unproductive expenditure, and you see households going through and cutting expenditure that is going to hurt but they know they have to do it\u2014cutting out things like kids being able to play sport or undertake cultural activities\u2014because they have to prioritise their expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EBut they are doing that and they see a Government that is doing none of those things to try and trim expenditure. They see a Government that is spending 80 percent more than it was back in 2017 when they came into Government. They see a Government that is spending $1 billion more every week\u2014week after week after week\u2014than was being spent back in 2017. They see a Government that has had record tax takes, but that money has been literally sprayed around through undisciplined spending, which does nothing to make New Zealand more productive; to get out of this incredible debt that we are in. They see a Government that has, through its financial incompetence and lack of discipline, saddled taxpayers with years and years of debt repayment. They see a Government who has treated our valuable agricultural sector with disdain and disrespect, despite them being the ones keeping our economy afloat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been much talk recently of financial literacy and basic economics being taught in schools. But, by golly, what an own goal that set Labour up for. Because the ones that need this the most are Labour MPs who need to understand that if they keep spending, the economy gets worse. If you hammer the productive sectors that bring in export dollars, you impact the amount of money that is available to be spent on schools and hospitals and police and other essential public services. Because so many in this Government don\u2019t seem to have that basic economic connection. But I guess it\u2019s less obvious that you just keep borrowing and borrowing, like this Government has, but you can\u2019t keep doing that because eventually it comes to a very sticky end\u2014and that sticky end is where we are at, right at this moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo I look at the education expenditure in this Budget and see the damage that has been caused in the early childhood sector: the absolute avalanche of home-based providers that have closed this year; the stress and uncertainty that centre-based providers are under. Then we take a look at the tertiary education sector, where universities are being hit by the perfect storm of declining domestic student numbers, international student numbers still not back to pre-COVID levels\u2014unlike our Aussie neighbours\u2014and the impact of inflation on their operational costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EFor too long, this Government tried to convince the New Zealand public that these were issues that were worldwide. But the universities know that we have lagged behind Australia, Canada, and other competitive countries in getting the borders open and getting international students back. So, now, the universities\u2019 strained finances are impacting on staff and the range of programmes that can be offered to local New Zealand students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThen we look at the mess of our vocational education sector: polytechnics and industry training organisations centralised into Te P\u016Bkenga. And my goodness, if any management tutor or lecturer ever wanted to see an example of how not to restructure, Te P\u016Bkenga is going to give them the information for years to come. How did Chris Hipkins get this through Cabinet in 2018 without full costings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EIn October last year, Te P\u016Bkenga put a business case through saying, \u201COh gosh, look what\u2019s happened. We need $1 billion dollars more over the next 10 years to make Te P\u016Bkenga work.\u201D The Minister said, \u201COh, that\u2019s too much. Go away.\u201D Fifteen times they reworked that business case, and they finally came back with, \u201COh, we need $423 million over five years.\u201D Those who have done even primary school maths will understand that\u2019s about half what they were asking for over 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EQuite rightly, Treasury said they shouldn\u2019t be given anything. So what was put into this Budget? A $220 million loan\u2014oh, that\u2019s on top of the $200 million that\u2019s already been spent\u2014to solve a $40\u00A0million problem. So, now, Te P\u016Bkenga is faced with a $220 million loan to somehow try and get into shape a centralised entity to be able to get some efficiencies of economies of scale. It just can\u2019t be done. But in the commercial world, would any bank have lent $200 million to undertake a centralisation and then find out halfway through it that they needed another $1 billion dollars to make it happen? If anything shows the incompetence of this Government, that certainly does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThis Labour Government wonders why the public has fallen out of love with them. Well, I can tell you that any business owner, any farmer, any household budget holder understands that they have had to go through and do what this Government has not done in their Budget: trim their costs. This Government is incapable of doing that. They are addicted to spending, they have been incompetent in pulling this Budget together, and that is why the public will not stand for it any longer. They will not see our country being taken any further down this debt track than this Government has already done. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221d5460196a4748d3994718869ee05421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d5460196a4748d3994718869ee05421\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just for those aligning their speeches, this is speech number 13. Anae Neru Leavasa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7da6e6a7dc74125834daa081a77f560\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7da6e6a7dc74125834daa081a77f560\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Fa\u2018afetai lava lau afioga le Fofoga Fetalai. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to take a call as the MP for Tak\u0101nini on the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill and the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EThis Budget 2023 is about delivering for all New Zealanders. It\u2019s about delivering for communities like Tak\u0101nini and communities across Aotearoa. When we look at the issues that are at hand for our Kiwis, number one: we want to support them through the cost of living crisis. It is about delivering the services that New Zealanders rely on and also looking at recovery and resilience for those that were hit hard from Cyclone Gabrielle, the Auckland floods, but also in the future, of any environmental factors happening again. It\u2019s also about being fiscally sustainable as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the cost of living support that this Government has already had, let\u2019s just lay down the context of what we\u2019re facing: the high inflation is seen globally but also here in Aotearoa. It is putting pressure on our Kiwi households everywhere. This Government has already delivered significant support through the cost of living payments, the fuel prices that were low during that time period when we supported also the public transport half price, and the increases to Working for Families, the superannuation, and many more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the policy such as extending the 20 hours of early childhood education (ECE) to our two-year-olds, this is going to benefit many of our communities; our wh\u0101nau. Recently I visited the BestStart Kauri Flats in Tak\u0101nini, which is one of our ECEs, and met up with the centre manager Aman and the staff. We were celebrating Matariki last month and to meet our wh\u0101nau coming through that live in Tak\u0101nini, and seeing them there, seeing our parents celebrating Matariki, but also to discuss what matters to them\u2014this policy would definitely help our younger folk and our kids and wh\u0101nau. This will help support parents who want to choose to go back to work. This will help give them that time as well. So, again, I want to acknowledge our BestStart Kauri Flats ECE in Tak\u0101nini. But under the National-ACT Government, if they were to come in place, gone\u2014\u201Cgone-burger\u201D! That is what is at risk, and this is one of those policies that we still need, to help support our wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EOne of the biggest ones that I love is the scrapping of the prescription co-payments. As a medical doctor that\u2019s worked over a decade and a half in South Auckland\u2014M\u0101ngere, Manurewa, Tak\u0101nini and everywhere in between\u2014having that $5 co-payment is huge. Yes, the other side will say \u201CWell, it\u2019s only $5.\u201D, but when we see our communities in South Auckland, many of the clinics that I\u2019ve worked in, we\u2019ve seen wh\u0101nau who have not one or two medicines\u2014they\u2019re on many more, and it all adds up. This is just one of those avenues where we can take that priority and reduce that barrier for many of our wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I\u2019ve had when many of my patients come through, once we prescribe something, and there\u2019ll be a list, they will actually say, \u201CDoctor, name for me the top two medicines on that list, because I can\u2019t afford the other three or four.\u201D It is so hard to see when we\u2019re trying to treat our people with chronic issues and trying to improve their health and wellbeing, and then having to choose which are the best two. We don\u2019t prescribe things just for fun. We\u2019re trying to help our wh\u0101nau get over their medical conditions. There\u2019s times when me and my colleagues have had to go and get medicine out of the medical clinic cabinet because we know our wh\u0101nau cannot go next door to get a prescription.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s those travel barriers as well. We\u2019ve had many of our wh\u0101nau say, \u201CCan you send it to this pharmacy that gives free prescriptions?\u201D Because, back in that time, only a few were getting them free. That removes that barrier. They can go next door, don\u2019t have the cost of fuel, don\u2019t have time wasted to get their medicines. This would definitely help in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that when we\u2019re looking at policies\u2014and I\u2019m all about health and wellbeing; follow the whare tapa wh\u0101 model\u2014we look at the fonofale model. I just want to acknowledge that we do have the pioneer of the fonofale model up in the gallery, afioga ia Fuimaono Dr Karl PulotuEndemann. Thank you so much for the work that you do in our community. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that this policy as well will help communities such as Wainui\u014Dmata, the Mana community, and I just want to acknowledge again the former Minister Luamanuvao Dame Winnie Laban. Thank you for the work also that you do. I don\u2019t want to say \u201Cyou\u201D all the time, Mr Speaker, because I know that\u2019s saying it to you. But there are many communities that would benefit from this one policy. I acknowledge we have the M\u0101ngere-\u014Ct\u0101huhu local board chair here: lau afioga a Tauanu\u2018u Nanai Bakulich. The work that he does in seeing this policy working in that community will make huge inroads that a place like M\u0101ngere 275 represents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWhen I look at free public transport for our kids, Tak\u0101nini has a young population and I know many communities have a similar demographic in age; just over a third of the population are under 25. So when we look at just public transport itself, the free public transport for our under-13s and half price for those under 25, over a third in my community in Tak\u0101nini will benefit from this policy. So, again, it is looking at different levers to improve the health and wellbeing of our people, lower the cost, and therefore supporting our communities as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the KiwiSaver contributions for paid parental leave, I know many wh\u0101nau and I know my wife went on paid parental leave recently for our baby as well and she\u2019s now one year old. I look across, again, to our young wh\u0101nau across the House\u2014across Aotearoa\u2014and this policy is helping support their wh\u0101naus as well in giving those contributions while mum or dad is on paid parental leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWhen we look at cheaper energy bills for our wh\u0101naus\u2014and I love that we\u2019re expanding the Warmer Kiwi Homes programmes because again, warm, dry homes, supporting our wh\u0101nau from the home itself is wh\u0101nau and our housing is one of the foundations of improving the health and wellbeing of our people. Too many times I\u2019ve seen come through the clinic people who have respiratory conditions, people have skin conditions, the kids are suffering, when we have chronic conditions that we\u2019re trying to manage, but then we obviously get those acute things happen at home because it\u2019s too cold, it\u2019s too damp, and therefore affecting their health. Warming their homes and providing this policy would definitely support our wh\u0101nau that go through similar things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWhen things happen, when it comes to environmental issues happening across Aotearoa, we want to make sure that we\u2019re supporting them. So when we saw the cyclone happen, Cyclone Gabrielle, and also the Auckland floods, I want to acknowledge that the first South Auckland civil defence centre was set up in my rohe of Tak\u0101nini, Randwick Park, Manu Tukutuku, and I want to acknowledge the MPs that came across, to come and support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab4c8c3e3a0442f482c29236eb83dc37\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re awesome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe6371dca07645ac8ba60d9b7487f5d3\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, very awesome and, again, I want to acknowledge my colleague across the House as well, who was there\u2014in pretty much her home town\u2014as well. That sort of support and seeing what happened in Cyclone Gabrielle on the East Coast, we want to make sure that there is investment into those areas to deal with the here and now, but also help to improve the resilience for what the future may hold. Also, looking at protecting communities, we look at the $100 million fund to help councils invest in the future flood resilience as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EThe Pacific caucus had the opportunity to meet the PikPok gaming operators in Wellington. This is where that policy of providing a 20 percent rebate for video game developers was warmly welcomed by them. I just want to highlight that Tyrone McAuley, the owner of PikPok, is a Samoan, So big ups to our Samoans and Pacific who are making headway in different sectors. But Tyrone said we need more M\u0101ori Pacific in the sector of games as well and game developing, and so forth. It\u2019s a growing industry. It\u2019s providing high-paying jobs. There\u2019s many things you can do in the industry itself, so, again, I want to acknowledge Tyrone and the crew that we met\u2014Lance, the chief financial officer\u2014and their contribution to the sector being the pioneers in leading the way in Aotearoa new Zealand and I\u2019m just happy that it\u2019s a Pacific Islander who\u2019s one of the co-owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWhen we look at additional public housing, the 3,000 additional public housing places, when we look at the different policies such as supporting Kiwis into work and the health polices, there\u2019s so much that I could say but it\u2019s all at risk if the National-ACT Government comes into place and does a moonwalk and takes us backwards in this place. Fa\u0027afetai, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2f76e60d8b8433a91ffa1fa9cebd072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2f76e60d8b8433a91ffa1fa9cebd072\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a five-minute split call\u2014Toni Severin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2246e1f096f4a3098815ef8abb63374\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2246e1f096f4a3098815ef8abb63374\u0022\u003ETONI SEVERIN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Much appreciated for your guidance on that. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand on the appropriations and this imprest bill to oppose it. Now, just before in the House, we were informed that this is the fifth Wellbeing Budget this Labour Government has presented. My question is: how many people out in New Zealand listening to this will feel that it has been a wellbeing Budget? We\u2019re in a cost of living crisis and people are feeling it in their pockets every day they go to fill up their vehicles at the service station, and when they go and buy their groceries. Most people are really struggling today and this Government is saying that this Budget is bread and butter and wellbeing. I don\u2019t think so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EMost people that I speak to in the community are struggling too hard to just do these things. Now, the biggest thing they say is, \u201COK, we have electric cars. Most of us don\u2019t mind too much about electric cars or hybrid cars, but we still need roads to drive them.\u201D So who\u2019s going to pay for these roads? That comes back at the moment to those that have got petrol or diesel. Is that fair? No. So there you go. Is that wellbeing and feeling that people are being listened to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EWhat results has this Government shown for this large amount of spending that they have put here? Do we have more kids going to school every day? No. Do we have a better education system? No. Do we have a better health system? No. I\u2019m talking to family in Invercargill and they are talking about possibly losing their hospital because they can\u2019t get staff there. I understand that not everybody wants to move down to the deep South, but there are lovely, friendly people down there, and we\u2019d love people there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing is around health. Everybody talks about doctors and nurses\u2014what about the laboratory scientists that helped us through COVID, and how well have they been treated through this Budget? No, they are going on strike again. Now, that\u2019s very unusual for that to happen. So where are they being looked after in this Budget around health? All we see is more and more spending with very little improvements on anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow ACT put out a fully costed alternative budget, and we found that there was up to spending\u2014was it 61 percent over the last five years? Now if I could do that in small business, gee, I would be very happy. But no, when you\u2019re in small business, or a ma and pa, you tighten your belts when you need to. You look at where you can save some money. But this Government doesn\u2019t seem to be wanting to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EThere is so many more bureaucrats\u2014and I call them bureaucrats because they\u2019re working in Wellington. To me, the public servants are your doctors, your nurses, your teachers, the people on the ground that we need to look after more. But we are not looking. We have got far too many people here in Wellington that also are being hired against the private sector. In the private sector, the small businesses can\u2019t keep up with the wages that this public sector is offering them as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ESo this is it. What are we getting for this Budget really, the average person? That is very little. We have not got any improvements in any of our key education, health\u2014even corrections: crime is up under this Government. You wanted to reduce crime but it hasn\u2019t; you put less prisoners out. Now this is just going to inflate more and more because the more crime we get, the more people are going to be struggling, especially those small businesses that have to pay for this. This Government hasn\u2019t given too much to most people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, we also said that if you earn $70,000 in this alternative budget, we say we can give you a tax cut without affecting the front-line services. Now, this Government over here, Labour, will scaremonger everybody, but we can afford to do it; you\u2019ve just got to watch where you are spending it because you\u2019re just throwing money around to people that don\u2019t. We oppose this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd1c82c505624e7b8bac78c2974aacc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd1c82c505624e7b8bac78c2974aacc2\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. If there is time, I would like to stand as the Green Party MP on these bills and support them, but we would not stop here. The Greens know that there are further levers that we can pull to make sure that we step up to the scale of the climate and inequality challenges that are facing all of us\u2014every single one of us\u2014here in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EA lot of the debate today in this House on these bills has been focused on the cost of living. We have been clear that it is not actually just a cost of living crisis; this is an inequality crisis. When we talk about who pays, there are people who are not going to the supermarket and who are having to use a calculator to make sure they stay within their budgets. There are people who are not having to worry about paying the mortgage or the rent and the power bill and the kai bill. There are people who are firmly secure and stable and have got more than they need to live a good life. Our economic and tax system has to change if we have any chance of raising the revenue that we absolutely need now, but especially now into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe Greens support the $5 prescription fee being waived. I was in the Manurewa Southmall Pharmacy just last week hearing directly from chemists themselves, making it really clear that they\u2019re having more pick-up because of the removal of the $5 barrier, which is a lot for far too many people. That\u2019s a lot. They are actually having more of the prescriptions picked up because of that, so we celebrate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI know that it is important that in this bill it includes the work to start reducing energy bills for families. Right now, families are having to choose to not turn their heaters on because it is too expensive to cover that plus the rent, plus the kai, and goodness knows whatever else comes up. We support all of these moves. There is also the transport being less expensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe support all of what is in here as good, important moves and changes, but we can\u2019t tinker around the edges. The Greens would go far further to making sure everyone has access to a minimum income no matter what, whether they are out of work or studying, for example. We can actually increase the tax on wealth for those with more than enough and redistribute that back to, for example, 3.7 million New Zealanders who would benefit from the sorts of proposals that the Greens have been putting up right from the very start, where everyone earning under $125,000 would actually benefit, and where those who can most afford it\u2014without diminishing much of the quality of their lives at all\u2014can actually help the Government raise the revenue that we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe have to massively scale up our public, affordable, and community and M\u0101ori and Pacific housing. We can do that because it is a political choice not to. We have to end poverty, not just see less of it. Our Greens proposals would actually end wh\u0101nau and child poverty. If people are concerned about crime and community safety, ending poverty and making sure people have warm, affordable, healthy homes would go most of the way to seeing intergenerational change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EIt is a political decision to not put those plans into place where we\u2019ve got what we need. We have what we need to actually make those changes; we should just do them. I\u2019m proud that the Green Party is continuing to build support, because we are putting up the actual, achievable policies that could actually ensure that we are meeting the climate challenges, meeting the challenge of growing inequality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EOver the past few years, we have seen, around the world, the wealthiest\u2014top not even 1 percent; even less than that\u2014building ridiculous, immoral wealth. No need for the build-up of that immoral wealth for such a few\u2014literally a few, in the context of the world. Here in New Zealand, it is exactly the same. There is no need for that. We can redistribute that so that we can help Aotearoa. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae357eb2e7fa4fd980d7c7a3aa98f2a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae357eb2e7fa4fd980d7c7a3aa98f2a7\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call in support of what is a bill about the appropriation of money. Now, money is a very real thing and there is only a limited amount of it, and there are always hard choices to be made. What I have around me is a team of people that I am incredibly proud of because I know that they come from every walk of life in this country, and they are truly grounded\u2014they are grounded people. I\u2019d just like to mention my Pacific Island colleagues because I am particularly impressed with the crowd today and its regard\u2014it\u2019s here to respect one of our wonderful Ministers, and he comes from the Pacific Island community. Our caucus is rejuvenating the Pacific Island community in its rank. It has some wonderful Ministers, and they also come from a variety of backgrounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIf I want to talk about medicine and the state of our health service, I can go to Dr Anae and we can have a talk about that. He is working and has seen a lot of things happen. He has seen the terrible reality of a postcode lottery. I worked in employment law for 25 years and I remember going in to negotiate on behalf of a group of workers in Middlemore Hospital. I was told at that point that Middlemore Hospital was not given the same funding for people who were coming in to that hospital. They were given less money in Middlemore than they were given in other hospitals in Auckland. Now, that\u2019s absolutely ridiculous. What we are doing now is we\u2019re replacing a system where it had been that the poorest people in our country were being given less money than everyone else when they had the highest needs, because there is a direct relationship between poverty and health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThere are also dots being joined, and you can see it in this Budget, because the dots that are being joined are the ones between health and housing and poverty. Now, the reality is we had far too much chronic illness in this country and it was a result of the fact that our houses were not warm and dry; our rentals were not secure. People were living in places they never should have been with children; that was going on. And you know what? They were then going off to a hospital which had mould in its walls\u2014mould in its walls. We were not paying our nurses enough. That was what we inherited, and we inherited it at a precarious time. We inherited it when we had a situation where we were going to face a pandemic. We were just building up those services when that pandemic struck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhile I have heard a lot of whinging from the Opposition, I remind them that they were not clear about closing the borders because, again, they weren\u2019t grounded. They weren\u2019t from the class of people who would be most affected, and they did not want to close those borders, then they did want to close those borders, then they did not want to close those borders, then they did want to close those borders. They were driven by a lack of groundedness. This Government knew exactly what its priorities were: the priorities were people\u2014they were people\u2019s health. As a result, I am proud of what was accomplished, but there is work to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThere is a lot of work to be done to make sure that our health service is robust, that it serves our people. There is work to be done in terms of making sure that our houses are still warm and dry and there are enough of them to put people in. There is work to be done by a Government that\u2019s not afraid to lead in this area; that\u2019s not afraid to make hard choices. I respect my colleagues in the Green Party, but sometimes I struggle with the fact they continually have the advantage of being able to promise things that are not priced. The hard choices are being made in the ranks of the Labour Party. We have to make choices, and those priorities have to actually respect our people and the value of our people. They have to get wages up in this country; they have to keep innovation going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo in this Budget, you will see a multitude of wonderful things. There are a multitude of different things\u2014and you\u2019ve heard my colleagues list some of those things\u2014and there\u2019s an abundance of them. That\u2019s because there are so many things that need to be done in this country. It is absolutely critical\u2014critical\u2014that we get a chance to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I want to contrast that with what I have been hearing, because I want to bust one myth before I sit down, and this is this ridiculous situation over tax cuts. Because let\u2019s just talk about those tax cuts as an alternative for a minute. They are being dangled in front of New Zealanders, but they are not being explained. Let\u2019s remember that this would be an alliance\u2014if there was a change in Government\u2014between the ACT Party and the National Party. Now, let\u2019s just take a quick look at the alternative that they are promising us. They are promising us an alternative whereby, even by their stats, people on $180,000 get over $1,000 worth of extra benefit in their tax break that year. Do you know how much somebody on a minimum wage gets? They get something like, I think, $2 a week\u2014$2 a week. That\u2019s what we\u2019re dealing with. We don\u2019t value people if we\u2019re giving the top bracket that doesn\u2019t need it that kind of money and we\u2019re giving people on minimum wage so little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat would ACT do? ACT would have frozen the minimum wage for three years. I\u2019ve been sitting here for three years and every time that the Labour Party has suggested that we will increase the minimum wage, we have been told \u201CNot now\u2014not now.\u201D Well, I heard that all my life\u2014I saw that all my life. As an employment lawyer, I saw people hold those wages back. I saw what it did to people\u2019s families. I had a case at one point which was actually in Terisa Ngobi\u2019s area, it was in Levin. It was in a meat works where people were actually paying the workers less and less because they were paying them piece rates. So what they would do is they\u2019d just add another job to the piece rate and they ended up being on less than the minimum wage. That was the kind of sleepy approach we had because we did not prioritise people; we did not actually prioritise getting wages up in this country and paying people in a dignified way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m going to finish by just talking for a second about these fair pay agreements, because it\u2019s a big word and people aren\u2019t used to it and they don\u2019t know. Those fair pay agreements are about basic minimums and never going below them. They\u2019re about making sure that if one employer is paying an amount of money that is fair, they\u2019re not undercut by somebody doing what I just described happened in Levin. That isn\u2019t going to happen because there\u2019ll be a floor\u2014there\u2019ll just be a minimum. Doesn\u2019t mean you can\u2019t pay more; doesn\u2019t mean you can\u2019t do different terms and conditions, but you can\u2019t pay less than your friend down the road who\u2019s trying to do the decent thing and pay New Zealanders a decent wage. That is an incredibly important thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I have got a minute and a half and I\u2019d like to just for a minute turn to my friend\u2014this is Emily Henderson, and she is about to give her valedictory. I\u2019d just like to say, first of all, it\u2019s been an utter pleasure working with you. I have been so lucky to have Emily\u2019s counsel at times, but I also wanted to talk about her work, because I started this speech talking about how grounded this team is. Emily made a valuable contribution to this team. She was a family lawyer before she came here. Now, my ex-husband was a family lawyer and I know it\u2019s a really tough gig. It\u2019s actually quite tough living with a family lawyer, Emily. It\u2019s hard because the work\u2019s traumatic because people doing family law see some of the most strained families in our country. I know that she\u2019s contributed a massive amount to the work that we\u2019re doing in this area. We are working on issues like family violence. We are working on victim support. We are working on things like litigation abuse. And we\u2019re able to do that because we have people in our team like Emily who\u2019ve been feeding us real, grounded information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo if this country wants to look at this Budget, they will find a mine of information and care that has taken place where a limited amount of money can go. And yes, we haven\u2019t got everything we want in this Budget. We\u2019ve got a lot more work to come, and we want to be able to get on and do it, and we want to make the priorities New Zealanders\u2014make sure that they get food on their tables and have warm, healthy environments and are free from violence. That\u2019s the work only a Labour Government can do. Kia ora koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b046e7c240364b76aeeefd16193153a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b046e7c240364b76aeeefd16193153a1\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Now, I think it\u2019s important that we just take a moment to reflect on what this debate is about. This debate is about the Government\u2019s Budget and their plans to\u2014purportedly\u2014deliver better outcomes for New Zealanders. We heard the last speaker, Helen White, talk about how the priority is people. That sounds great, and, actually, that reflects the last 5\u00BD years under this Government\u2014it sounds good but does not deliver. That, quite frankly, is where Kiwis are being let down time and time again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u201CIt\u2019s about people\u201D, we hear. There are more people now in emergency accommodation than there were when this Government came to power. There are more people now living in their cars than there were when this Government came to power. There are more people suffering as victims of crime than there were when this Government came to power. There are poorer health outcomes. There are poor educational outcomes. Across the board, people are suffering after six years of failure from this Government. Now, this latest Budget does nothing to relieve that pressure for everyday Kiwis that are going about their jobs, trying to make the best of their situation and trying to make a better future for themselves and their families. They are being let down by a Government that has great intentions but simply cannot deliver meaningful improvements for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe have a Government spending 80 percent more now than when they came into office\u201480\u00A0percent more. That would be OK if we were seeing an 80 percent increased outcome across health, education, law and order\u2014name your priority area. Yet, across the board, we are not seeing those improved outcomes. That is one of the biggest failures of this Government: they are splashing the cash and not delivering tangible gains. Time and again, what we are seeing is a total confusion between the inputs versus the outputs. The assumption from this Government is that if we spend more\u2014and we\u2019ve seen net debt rise from $5.4 billion to a staggering $73 billion under this Government, an increase of 1,250 percent, but where are the outcomes? We simply are not seeing improvements for Kiwis as a result of this Government\u2019s focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, I commend them on that side of the House because they have good intentions; without a doubt, they\u2019ve come to this place to try and deliver better outcomes for Kiwis. But after six years of suffering, it is simply not credible that they are delivering improvements for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, when I talk to my constituents in the mighty Waikato, what I hear consistently is that they are frustrated that it costs them more at the supermarket, the kids aren\u2019t learning what they should be at school, their parents can\u2019t get into hospital when they need it, and the local dairy keeps getting robbed. On those basic measures, we have, after six years, seen poorer outcomes now than we had when Labour came into power. Kiwis have had enough. They want change, and we are seeing that time and time again with the conversations we are having around the country and the focus we are seeing shifting in the public polls as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThe Government have demonstrated they do not have a plan to deliver a credible improvement to the economy. We are suffering continuously, and Kiwis have had enough. Those good intentions that I mentioned are admirable\u2014absolutely we should have good intentions, and I commend them for that, but good intentions are nothing without good outcomes. We simply are not seeing that. Again, I reflect on those key areas: health, education, law and order, and the economy, areas that impact Kiwis in their everyday lives. Kiwis that are trying to make the most of it, whether they be business owners\u2014whether they be farmers, in my building and construction portfolio, for example\u2014across the board, time and time again, we are hearing the frustration from the difficulty of getting things done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6588ce83bd6476b9e9ed337472e4865\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6588ce83bd6476b9e9ed337472e4865\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the member, but it\u2019s come time for the valedictory statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e38de65f7366414a867870bc030bc443\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea735c92c57f411cadba9ad7a9111637\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002226970e64ca3c48f7a18931c865bae8fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226970e64ca3c48f7a18931c865bae8fd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to inform members that following the valedictory statements, the House will suspend for the dinner break and resume at 7.30 p.m. for further consideration of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill. Members, I call on Dr Emily Henderson to make her valedictory statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00222ba8fdda787345099f85e4bc9aab9bf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ba8fdda787345099f85e4bc9aab9bf2\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare P\u0101remata, for the last time: t\u0113n\u0101 koe. This is an incredible job. This is an incredible place. This is an incredible team. Admittedly, it\u2019s a team I never expected to join\u2014and let\u2019s be honest, you were as shocked as I was!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EBut the welcome, especially from Kelvin and Willow, my brother and sister in arms in team Te Tai Tokerau, and from the gloriously talented team 2020, the warmth and the wraparound has made the decision to leave so soon so much harder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EAnd not only the team here; I\u2019m also leaving the team up there in the gallery. The wonderful crew from my office: Audrey Van Dalen, Denise Phillips, Emma McLean, Glen Service, and Judy Riggir; not to mention my wonderful local party exec and volunteers, family, everyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EBut the truth is, I didn\u2019t really stand in 2020 with any expectation of winning. And as wonderful as this caucus is and as deeply as I believe in its work\u2014and if you cut me open, you would find \u201CLabour\u201D stencilled across my heart\u2014I have come to believe in the words of the prayer that opens every sitting day, in \u201Cjustice\u201D, in \u201Chumility\u201D, and with as much \u201Cwisdom\u201D as I can muster, this is not the way I best serve New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI had been researching and writing about how to reform the court system and make it safer for vulnerable people for 25 years before I entered this place. Over the years, I\u2019d helped introduce a plethora of practice reforms, culminating in the sexual violence court. I\u2019d even managed to shoehorn a few ideas into legislation before becoming MP. There\u2019s been any number of Ministers of Justice of all political persuasions who have had the dubious privilege of listening to my unsolicited ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWhen I sat down and really thought about the next term, I realised that, as much as I enjoy this job and this team, it\u2019s in that generating of new ideas that I believe I add most value. Maybe the ideas I come up with won\u2019t be the best ideas; maybe I won\u2019t save the justice system; maybe I will leave this place, come up with nothing, and persuade no one; but it\u2019s still the wisest decision I know how to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EAnd to those who wonder why, with such a knife-edge seat as mine, I didn\u2019t just quietly wait to lose the election and then go back to my books, well: once bitten, twice shy. When the Whang\u0101rei Labour Party asked me to stand in 2020, they were crystal clear that we had no chance of winning then either. When your hometown has been blue for 45 years, it\u2019s hard to expect anything else\u2014even though we are also the town with the most to gain from a Labour Government. For decades, Whang\u0101rei has been coming in first at the wrong end of every socio-economic race. When you\u2019ve been deprived for that long, it\u2019s hard to generate any hope for anything better or energy to ask. Poverty is the only thing that ever trickled down the neoliberal pipeline in Whang\u0101rei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ESo I didn\u2019t stand to win; I stood to protest. I stood to protest being taken for granted for 45 years. I stood to protest being ignored. I stood to protest the National Party\u2019s abysmal failure to get funding for our abysmal hospital, for their allowing our social housing to fall apart, for their decision to strip the regions of road maintenance funding for nearly a decade. I stood to protest the sheer failure to make an effort that comes when you\u2019re arrogant enough to take a region for granted for almost 50\u00A0years, even when you know the depth of its need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EAnd if there is one thing Labour proved to Whang\u0101rei on election day 2020 and every day since, including the day we got our new hospital funded and all the days we got our hundreds of new social houses and the day we got our Port Road bridge and funded our Vinegar Hill bridge and our port rail link and opened our cardiac catheterisation lab and our colonoscopy unit and all the other days, we proved that day that Whang\u0101rei won\u2019t be taken for granted anymore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWhang\u0101rei has stopped feeling whakam\u0101 about our modest hopes. We can and will demand better for ourselves and our children. And I\u2019m warning you now: I\u2019ve made it my mission while in this job to talk to our people, especially our young people, about how to demand better. I mentioned our new hospital; I\u2019d almost say my proudest moment as MP was when the usually very patient health Minister Andrew Little stood up at its announcement and complained bitterly that he\u2019d had to give in because the local MP made his ears bleed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EBut my actual proudest MP moment was one of my regular Whang\u0101rei Girls\u2019 High visits, where I learnt that a group of girls from Raumanga and Otaika\u2014two of our poorest suburbs\u2014had taken on board our previous session about petitioning Parliament, and now had over 1,000 signatures demanding we extend our free school lunch policy. Now, it might not be great party discipline to be encouraging constituents to pressure your own Government, but that\u2019s my single proudest moment. Because those girls\u2014so shy they had to come and see me in a little huddle and took many attempts to get their words out\u2014now know how to demand better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI know who I think should take my seat. [Points to Angie Warren-Clark] I believe in her so much, I\u2019ve even become her campaign manager. But whoever takes over, don\u2019t you ever do Whang\u0101rei the disrespect of taking it for granted again. Because if you do, the girls from Raumanga and Otaika and Tikipunga and Otangarei and Morningside and Raurimu\u2014the girls and boys of all our beaten-down suburbs\u2014are rising up, and they demand better. What will stop them\u2014especially will stop them from fulfilling my ultimate dream of seeing some of them in this House\u2014is not just the challenges of the places they come from, it\u2019s also going to be the challenges of this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI\u2019m here as part of the most gender-equal, M\u0101ori-, Pasifika-, rainbow-inclusive Government ever\u2014a Government in which my Whang\u0101rei rangatahi can, for the first time, truly see themselves reflected. In this caucus, I knew I could say anything, argue hard, be myself, and say my piece. I knew my views were respected even when we disagreed. But the space for constructive debate and the ability to tolerate opposing views outside the caucus room and amongst the public\u2014especially in the toxic swamp of social media\u2014that space has changed significantly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ENow, don\u2019t get me wrong: it takes more than a bit of trolling to silence a tough old courtroom lawyer, especially one who survived raising four extremely opinionated teenagers\u2014and I\u2019m also P\u0101keh\u0101. But for young political aspirants without similar advantages, politics is starting to look like a very difficult ask. Every day in Whang\u0101rei, I hear concerns about how intimidating even ordinary voters without political ambitions are finding entering into political discussions. No one who has led through the last few years\u2014even obscure backbench MPs like me in my beloved Whang\u0101rei\u2014can be in any doubt that the culture has changed. But the people in this place still have the power to steer us away from division. As someone about to step back into the mass of ordinary voters, I\u2019m asking you today to use that power. I get we won\u2019t ever play \u201CKumbaya\u201D and hold hands across the aisle here. I\u2019m not na\u00EFve, I come from the courts\u2014we invented adversarial argument, and this place is nothing if not democracy\u2019s courtroom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWe need a strong Opposition to test the Government from every angle. But as someone from the courts\u2014someone who\u2019s spent a lifetime trying to reform the courts\u2014there\u2019s danger when adversarial argument stops being about testing and becomes about winning alone. That\u2019s the nub of the problem in the courts. In rape cases or cases with vulnerable witnesses, lawyers who think their sole responsibility is to get a win will do virtually anything with any means necessary\u2014even when that drowns out and distorts the evidence. In a normal election, that might not matter so much. But these aren\u2019t normal times. Normally, extremism rolls right off New Zealanders, but this is a time of heightened anxiety, when many voters are undeniably on edge, struggling to come to terms with an uncertainty we haven\u2019t had to face since the 1930s. Scared people notoriously seek scapegoats, and it\u2019s the easiest and oldest trick in the book to tap into that fear and prejudice and drive a wedge into the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI would not suggest anyone in here is about to jump the conspiracy bandwagon, but, in an election year, there\u2019s a temptation to at least try and tap into some of that energy. It\u2019s there when politicians start using the language of \u201Ctaking back our country\u201D from minorities. It\u2019s there when politicians ignore the actual facts and, instead, go around telling people that they\u2019re unsafe and crime is out of control\u2014and, when confronted, that the facts don\u2019t matter as much as the fears. It\u2019s there when politicians start saying \u201Cthe apocalypse is nigh\u201D because we\u2019re about to put two of our official languages on street signs\u2014even when their leader led the charge to turn our major carrier into a hotbed of bilingualism. Demonising the neighbours is as simple as turning a deeply boring bit of legislation about pipes into a crusade against overreaching M\u0101ori. The temptation to divide in order to rule is clearly present, and it is a danger\u2014including in the increasing attacks on the independence of the judiciary, coming from this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EEvery time someone in leadership weaponises the power of that scapegoating\u2014against whatever people\u2014it licenses some unbalanced person to take their frustrations out on an actual person. It\u2019s only a few years since UK MP Jo Cox was murdered by white supremacy conspiracy theorists. Now, Jo Cox herself, in her maiden speech, just over a year before her murder, famously said that all of us, whatever our ethnicities or allegiances, \u201Chave far more in common than that which divides us.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EAs someone about to fade back into the mass of ordinary Kiwi voters who depend on you to keep us safe, I\u2019m asking you to heed her words. All it takes for democracy to crumble is for people to stop believing in it, to stop honouring the concept of shared power, shared decision-making; the idea that he waka eke noa\u2014a whole community can be represented in here, in this place, and make decisions for the whole with a reasonable degree of fairness and efficiency. We need a new way to debate this. We need a politics that doesn\u2019t play games with peoples\u2019 emotions. We need a politics that isn\u2019t afraid to lead from the front. We need a politics that isn\u2019t afraid to admit solutions are complicated, that isn\u2019t afraid to make tough decisions and trust us to catch up. We need a politics that has more respect for the people it serves, for our intelligence, for our realities, and for our futures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ESo, as an ordinary voter, I wish you all sufficient courage of your convictions to stand firm against those who seek to stoke the fires of hatred and resentment and divide our community. This place may not be perfect, but it is a good place\u2014the beating heart of a strong democracy. I wish you the confidence to stand firm and assert its strength and goodness, even if it occasionally means admitting you agree with the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EIt only remains for me to look up into the gallery and thank my wonderful family and friends for their support of me personally, especially my sisters and brothers, my mum and dad, my wonderful argumentative kids, and, most of all, Thomas\u2014I\u2019m so glad to be coming home at last. Mr Speaker, this House is, ultimately, not my home. I resign it to those who, in justice, in humility, and, yes, with a considerable degree of wisdom, will go on to serve here for the welfare and peace of the people of Aotearoa, New Zealand. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014If I Had Words\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u002217e0f3bfcceb44a6befd3ef3ad505b0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217e0f3bfcceb44a6befd3ef3ad505b0c\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E E te Mana Whakaw\u0101, e ng\u0101 mana, e ng\u0101 iwi, e reo e ng\u0101 hau, e wh\u0101 e ng\u0101 k\u0101rangaranga maha t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E[The Speaker, the authority, the iwi, the voices, the four winds, and the many ethnicities, sincere greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EOu te manatu ua s\u0101 le vao, ua s\u0101 foi le sami. Ua s\u0101 vasa i vas\u0101, aua o lea ua taufai sunu\u2018i ao o le lagi. O lea ua liligo le fog\u0101tia ua pa\u016B le tua\u0027au mafuamalu. Aua ua pa\u2018ia le faatafaf\u0101 o le Maotafono Faitulafono Aoao o Aotearoa nei. Ua pa\u2018ia Tamalelagi aua le aiga S\u0101 Levi ua aofaga potopoto. Ua pa\u2018ia foi tama a le m\u0101lo, aua le tapuaiga o upufai o M\u0101lo i Aotearoa, Samoa ma le Pasefika loaloa, Ua pa\u2018ia tama o le laueleele nei aua M\u0101ori, e faasino i fanua ma eleele. Aua le fale alii o Tainui Maori, au\u0101 King T\u016Bheitia Potatau Te Wherowhero Tuawhitu. Aemaise uo ma e masani ma aufaigaluega a le M\u0101lo. Tulou, tulou, tulouna ia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EKia orana tatou katoatoa. Fakaalofa lahi atu ki a mutolu oti. M\u0101l\u014D ni. T\u0101loha ni. Talofa, Tuvalu. M\u0101l\u014D e laum\u0101lie. M\u0101l\u014D \u2018aupito, kainga Tonga. Ni sa bula vinaka. Noa\u2018ia \u2018e mauri. Warm Pacific greetings to one and all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve conveyed my utmost respects to the mana of the land of Aotearoa, the sea, this House and its people, for this is my home. I have conveyed my highest respects to the mana of the many people, Government leaders, diplomatic corps, MPs, local government, NGOs, churches, our chiefs and traditional leaders, friends, and public servants present tonight, including my family and those who have travelled from overseas to be here and those who are listening from across the oceans. You are my community. I\u2019ve also expressed my deep respects to M\u0101ori, the people of the land, and the K\u012Bngitanga, for you are my kin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EMy heart is filled with gratitude and it is my absolute pleasure to stand here tonight\u2014semi-naked, of course\u2014to present my final remarks in Parliament. In the last seven months, I\u2019ve been saying farewell to the Pacific communities of Aotearoa New Zealand. This was my tour of duty with my community, where we\u2019ve cried, we\u2019ve danced, we\u2019ve eaten pork, we\u2019ve drunk kava on many occasions. I got lifted up once and got carried by the elders of the Cook Islands community while others chanted. All the time, I was fearful I would cause injury to someone\u2014they were elderly\u2014and then feeling glad I was no longer the Minister responsible for Pacific Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI want to pay tribute to all the Pacific mamas who have continued to feed me as they farewelled me. They are the ones that get things done all the time. Prime Minister, you need the mamas on your side if you want to win this election. I see them in the public sector, in health and education and employment, even in this House. They do a lot of work for our communities. In fact, during the election year, most of my colleagues would lose weight as they got so busy campaigning they didn\u2019t eat. I didn\u2019t have that problem. I put on weight because everywhere I went, all the Pacific mamas would feed me wherever I go, and they wouldn\u2019t let me go until I\u2019d eaten something, and then they put food in my car.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI received so many reflections from the Pacific community about my time here as the MP for M\u0101ngere and as the Minister for Pacific Peoples. Perhaps what remains to be said is for me to express my absolute gratitude to everyone here tonight. There are so many people who have made sacrifices of their time, given me counsel, your personal resources, and have supported me throughout. Whilst there are so many to name, I do express my gratitude to Vui Mark Gosche, Luamanuvao Dame Winnie Laban, Faamoetauloa Jerome Mika, Paul Retimanu, the M\u0101ngere Labour Party\u2014are you in the House? Yeah. I want to acknowledge also those of our M\u0101ngere Labour Party who are no longer with us, who passed away, and the many volunteers. To each of you I say fa\u2018afetai, fa\u2018afetai, fa\u2018afetai tele lava. Thank you so much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EPacific peoples\u2019 representation in Parliament only started in 1993, with Taito and Anae. After them came Vui, then Luamanuvao and Charles Chauvel. I came along as the fifth Labour MP of Pacific heritage, first Samoan born, and, as the late aunties Fili Fiu and Liz Lee-Lo of the Service and Food Workers Union would say, I also was the youngest and most handsomest of the lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAs I reflect on the maiden speech I gave on 1 April 2008, the issues I raised then are just as relevant today as they were in 2008. The work must continue, and I wish all the best to those who will take it up, especially members of the Labour Party Pacific caucus in the next Government. Tonight I want to focus on the future of Pacific peoples of Aotearoa, attempt to lift the spirits, hopes, and dreams of our Pacific youth, and offer a few challenges to those who wish to lead New Zealand in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIn 2018, Grant Robertson as Minister of Finance and myself launched a new Treasury report called The New Zealand Pacific Economy. It is the first report of its kind, which showed that for a small population, Pacific peoples contributed $8 billion to New Zealand\u2019s economy, despite the inequities and barriers they face. We knew then as a Government that Pacific peoples needed a long-term vision in order to remove barriers and address the inequities they face. To make an impactful difference required a significant investment across a number of Government agencies. It required everyone working hard and moving at pace to establish foundations of wellbeing that would endure, and that\u2019s what we did. We worked hard and at pace to deliver a Pacific Wellbeing Strategy across a number of Government agencies, with investments and outcome measurements. We delivered for Pacific languages; housing; health; education; science, technology, engineering, the arts, and mathematics pathways; Tupu Aotearoa employment opportunities; and business. Even my uncle thanked me for an increase in the minimum wage when it reached $21, and then he asked whether he can get another one next year. This is the work that must continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThank you to all the staff of Ministry for Pacific Peoples for all your hard work and support for our community, Pacific communities, and your support of me during my time as Minister. You were always my favourite ministry because the challenges you face were always insurmountable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EYet, when we as a country ensure that Pacific peoples of Aotearoa are strong, resilient, thriving, and prosperous, we are also ensuring that New Zealand as a whole benefits, for Pacific people are the youngest and fastest-growing population. We have to prepare the next generation to succeed so that Aotearoa New Zealand succeeds. They are the future workforce, future business owners, and taxpayers required to produce for the rapid ageing population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWe also launched in 2018 Lalanga Fou goals of economic prosperity, thriving languages and culture, healthy and wealthy families, and a focus on Pacific youth to live confident, thriving, resilient, prosperous lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI set out our future direction then for our Government and Pacific peoples of Aotearoa based on the age-old saying \u201CO le aso ma le filiga, o le aso ma le mata\u2018ig\u0101 tila.\u201D, a saying rooted in the voyaging practices of Samoa, where each leg of the journey is marked by arrival; we check our canoes to see if all is well, then prepare for the next leg of the journey and, whilst others ended up staying to establish new settlements, the voyage will continue to find new horizons. In other words, moving forward, \u201Ce sa\u2018ili M\u0101lo\u201D, to pursue better opportunities for the next generation. And that\u2019s the challenge to future Governments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETo the Ministry of Health pacific team and health officials, including the Pacific health providers and church and community leaders, I will always credit you for your tireless efforts to keep our community safe and protected during the COVID pandemic. Thank you also to the Pacific diplomats for your role in giving confidence to our people throughout the challenging period, especially my colleagues, the Consulate-General of the Cook Islands and Samoa in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETo Jacinda Ardern, thank you for the opportunity to be a member of your Government, for supporting my council. I will never forget how I attempted to control my motions when I was first asked to travel with the Pacific Islands Forum to represent you in Rome two weeks after I was sworn in as a Minister. Then when you asked in 2019 that you and Winston Peters would like me to accompany you to the United Nations General Assembly, I simply said, \u201CYes, Prime Minister.\u201D\u2014but I could have jumped out of that vehicle we were in, I was so excited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI remember the swell of emotion, also, when you agreed we would deliver the Dawn Raids apology and I couldn\u2019t go to sleep, thinking through every detail of what needed to happen and I cried. Then it seemed like I couldn\u2019t stop crying. I was even more emotional when you agreed to participate in the ifoga, despite your reservations, fa\u2018afetai tele lava. However, Pacific immigration settings is work that remains to be completed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETo Grant Robertson, the Minister of Finance, thank you very much to you and your Treasury officials for your amazing willingness to listen, understand and support the Pacific bids. It\u2019s not always easy when you\u2019ve also got Minister Willie Jackson and Minister Winston Peters breathing down your neck for their slice of the Budget pie. You, above all, I wish to pay tribute to because you kept your word with me and turned up to front our Pacific communities every year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETo all of my former ministerial colleagues and Labour Party caucus, including the fighting-fit Pacific and M\u0101ori caucuses: thank you so much, we had a blast, but there is still so much more that needs to be done and a lot is at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETo Prime Minister Chris Hipkins, I thank you for your support and our work during the COVID pandemic. I appreciate that you listened to my challenges on Pacific health matters for Aotearoa and across the Pacific through the Pacific health corridor, and I am grateful for your support in the Pacific education space as we pushed for reform on Pacific languages, Pacific history, Pacific scholarship, and Pacific staffing. We have a saying in Samoan: \u201CE afua mai mauga faamanuiaga i le nuu.\u201D\u2014from the mountains flow the blessings unto the villages. I believe that you are a mountain of a man: solid, steadfast, and immovable in your values and doing the right thing for others. You are doing a great job as Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThank you to Minister Winston Peters who texted me to say he gives me his apologies and your team and Ministers James Shaw and Marama Davidson of the Green Party, fa\u2018afetai tele lava; it\u2019s been a wonderful journey working with you, and I always appreciated your support. I\u2019ll never forget how Minister Shaw and I were so excited, two weeks into being sworn as Ministers, we were off to Germany to the climate change COP meetings. We both agreed to address climate change refugees. Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials had advised us on a humanitarian visa and away we went, using it every speech, media interview, and I was promoting it to the Pacific Island leaders. And when we returned, my political adviser asked me \u201CDid you consult Winston?\u201D \u201COops,\u201D I said, \u201CI forgot.\u201D Thank you, Winston, for your understanding and support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAfter meeting Pope Francis on that trip, I was able to show him that this is the hand that shook the hand of Pope Francis, and perhaps that may have settled the anger he may have had against me and Mr Shaw\u2014or maybe not!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I bet when the \u201Cno tie\u201D rule was introduced, you didn\u2019t think an MP would extend it to \u201Cno shirt\u201D, did you? Sir, that\u2019s not my intention tonight, nor is it my intention to compete in an ab competition\u2014I\u2019m sure that Mr Stuart Nash will win that! As you can see, I\u2019m a family pack kind of person! Nor is it my intention to compete with the hat of Mr Rawiri Waititi of Te Paati M\u0101ori. His hat is a colonial construct, and my tuiga is a traditional, reserved only for special occasions, made in West Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m in my traditional attire as a matai of my aiga Samoa, reserved for special events such as tonight. The K\u012Bngitanga, the Tainui elders, plus K\u0027aute Pasifika will know better than most of the symbolism of my attire, and I invite people to make inquiries of them. I present myself this way as a sign of respect to the Pacific communities and traditional leaders who have supported me and also to my families, the many families, aiga S\u0101 Aupito, aiga S\u0101 Tiumalu, Toelesulusulu, Tofae, and Su\u2018a, all those connected to the genealogies in those families. O so\u2018u taupega\u2018afa ma so\u2018u malu\u0101papa ou te malu ai. They who have protected me; to them all I say: \u201CFaafetai tele lava mo le tapua\u2018iga mamana.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also in my traditional attire, because I want to give confidence to the people who look like me\u2014tall, dark, and handsome\u2014that they can know that they too can be standing where I\u2019m standing and to be proud of who they are and to not be afraid to claim the right to sit at the decision-making table at all levels of Aotearoa. I stand proudly this way to make a statement for the sake of Pacific youth of Aotearoa. I am showing them that it is OK to be different, that they can be proud of their cultural heritage, even if they are just half and half or quarter like many of my nieces and nephews and my grandchildren; that it is OK to be a member of the rainbow community, too; and that it is OK to use pronouns\u2014he, him, and they, them\u2014and I want to thank my former staff, Nelly and Lou, for many lessons in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAnd if you are a Christian, Muslim, or whatever faith you profess it, OK, but allow all others to worship how, where, and what they may; don\u2019t criticise or condemn, but try to understand. I say to all Pacific youth: it is OK to love and be proud of your point of difference; it is OK to love your cultural heritage even if you don\u2019t speak the language; it is OK to pursue your dreams, and don\u2019t ever allow your surroundings or anyone to prevent you from that pursuit. My late mother would say to me, \u201CIf there is anything virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy, we should seek after these things\u201D. She also said to me, \u201CWhatever thou art, act well thy part\u201D. Be proud of your cultural intelligence, your language and your community and never leave it outside the doors of your workplace. Your language gives you direct access to thousands of years of experience and insights into how to navigate life. Take that with you wherever you go. Nurture it, study it, pursue it, be proud of it. I say again to the Pacific youth of Aotearoa: be proud of your being \u201Cgeneration B\u201D\u2014brown, beautiful, brainy, bilingual, bicultural, and bold\u2014and to remember that only in M\u0101ngere our young people are the \u201Cgeneration eight Bs\u201D, because they are just bloody brilliant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETo all the candidates in this upcoming election, beware of demonising young people. If you stick with the Ministry of Justice facts, you\u2019ll find the data shows fewer youth are offending but the severity of the offence has increased. I challenge you to see the youth of New Zealand, especially M\u0101ori and Pacific, for the potential that they can become for Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EFor all our youth, the best way of pushing back on politicians is voting on election day against those who use colonial constructs that divide and rule. It has been an absolute pleasure to work with the team at the Ministry of Justice as the first Pacific Minister for Courts. We did some wonderful work in funding and supporting the work of tribunals, funding the coroner\u2019s reform, the youth court, and the judicially led Te Ao M\u0101rama programme. I thank the judiciary for their leadership in using therapeutic principles to address the challenges victims and offenders face when it comes to mental health, drug addiction, anger management, homelessness, or fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. This is also work that must continue. I ask the Chief District Court Judge and your peers, the Principal Family Court Judge, and the Principal Youth Court Judge Ida Malosi: please do not slow down on your leadership with Te Ao M\u0101rama programme. It enables access to justice for all New Zealanders and improves our justice system in the long run.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWhen I announced I was leaving, my wife Jean reminded me that my youngest son Daniel is 23\u00A0years old\u2014he\u2019s going to be embarrassed now\u2014and that\u2019s how long I\u2019ve been playing my politics, she said. She didn\u2019t say it, but in other words, I haven\u2019t been around home that much, and she is absolutely correct and I want the Hansard record to reflect that I was only able to focus all my time and energy on my role as an MP for M\u0101ngere and as a Minister in the Jacinda Ardern Government because my family supported me. They grounded me. They sacrificed to allow me to take up what many would argue is the greatest calling in the world: to serve the public, to serve my community, to serve my fellow human beings, to serve Aotearoa New Zealand, to serve M\u0101ngere, to serve the Pacific, to serve the New Zealand Labour Party to the best of my abilities, and I have absolutely enjoyed and loved every minute of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETo my wife Jean and our children Losa, Mausey, Fred, Makisha junior, Maimoana, Joan and Daniel and your spouses and children, thank you very much. To my children in the US: Joshua, Makisha senior, and Jacob and your families, fa\u2018afetai tele lava. To my father, Aupito Snr, the last of the Mohicans, the last of his generation, who recently turned 85 years in Samoa: you have always been my unofficial campaign manager in South Auckland. You can now promote your many other grandkids and daughters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EFaafetai mo lau tapua\u2018iga. Thank you for your constant prayers, words of encouragement, support, and for being proud of my service. To my siblings Tutoatasi Taoa, Soloau Lipine, Suausi Viena, Tiumalu Noma, Faatonu, Lolly, and Yvonne and your spouses and your children, including my late brother Kenneth, thank you for being honest and frank with me all the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETo all my wonderful nieces and nephews, thank you for keeping me real. Thank you for supporting me. Thank you for making me feel special whilst you also made your own decisions; like I would later find out that some of you voted for the Green Party and M\u0101ori Party while all the time making me feel that you were supporting me all the way. Good thing was I never once heard them mention the other parties, so I\u2019m proud of you. Keep it that way in this election. Remember that Labour and Chris Hipkins are in it for you, and he\u2019s the Chris with hair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EOn the walls of this House, are 12 carved circular rimu memorial wreaths around the balcony. Each bears a ribbon with the name of a significant engagement involving New Zealand troops in World War I. There, above your seat, Mr Speaker, is the memorial wreath and ribbon for Samoa. It marks New Zealand\u2019s first World War I engagement, when they sent 1,400 New Zealand soldiers to capture German Samoa at the request of Great Britain. The New Zealand Expeditionary Force Advance Party sailed from Wellington on 15 August and landed at Apia on 29 August 1914. From that year onwards, New Zealand occupied Samoa and continued to administer it until Samoa won its independence in 1962.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand colonial administrators did more harm during their colonial rule from 1914 to 1962. They forced my ancestors off their lands in Satapuala village to build an airport for the war. There are horrible stories of rape and pillage and killings that the late chief To\u0027alepaiali\u0027i Toeolesulusulu Salesa III shared with me. There was the deliberate infection of the local population when, on 7 November 1918, the New Zealand military administration controlling Samoa, led by Colonel Robert Logan, made the deadly decision to knowingly allow the ship Talune, which was carrying Spanish influenza, to dock at Apia. The results were catastrophic, wiping out over a quarter of Samoa\u2019s population and decimating entire families and villages. Colonel Logan refused the offer of medical help from Tutuila, American Samoa. When the local Samoan leaders protested and revived the Mau movement, they were banished from Samoa. They were taken and imprisoned, some in Mount Eden. Many were stripped of their Samoan Matai titles and moved off their land. When they were in Mount Eden, M\u0101ori visited them and gave aid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThen there was the horrific shooting by New Zealand Military Police on the Mau independence demonstrators in Apia, where 11 Samoans were shot to death, including the independence leader of High Chief Tupua Tamasese Lealofi III. Saturday,\u00A028\u00A0December 1929 became known as Black Saturday, and I have been singing wherever I have gone as a Minister the song \u201CO le fana taavili ua oteote mai\u201D because that song tells of that story, so I don\u2019t forget this history. Prime Minister Helen Clark apologised in 2002 for the wrongs and harms caused during New Zealand\u2019s colonial rule. More must be done. The Treaty of Friendship that New Zealand holds with Samoa is the only one it has. It is the document that has to be enhanced to achieve restitution for the harms caused and wrongs committed. It is not for Samoa to ask for it; it is for New Zealand to right those wrongs tangibly. This is the history that I hope will now be taught in our schools as part of New Zealand\u2019s history curriculum. By teaching this history, New Zealand can become a better country. By understanding the mistakes that have been made in the past, future generations can learn not to keep repeating the folly of past Governments. Climate change still remains the single-biggest security threat in the Pacific and will remain so. More must be done. We save ourselves when we save the Pacific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, to my political staff Chris McAvoy, Nina Sudiono-Price, Chris Harrington, Tasha Thomas, and others, and to my M\u0101ngere electorate staff, Delilah, Ara, Makalita, Maria, Florence, and the many volunteers, thank you so much for your dedication and support of me. Thank you to the M\u0101ngere Labour Party. To the sisters who have travelled from afar to be here\u2014Carol, thank you very much. Pacific vice presidents, the New Zealand Labour Council, and the Auckland Northland council, our local board members in Auckland Council\u2014there are no words to convey my gratitude to you all. I pay tribute to all the seconded staff from the Ministry for Pacific Peoples, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Justice, and the Ministry of Health who worked in my office, and all the Government agency officials. We did some amazing and wonderful work that we can be very proud of, and I think I had the best team ever as a Minister. To all our health and education providers, Pacific groups and churches, my advisory groups, the Pacific expert advisory group\u2014words cannot express my heartfelt appreciation, nor can I repay your dedication. I will dance for you tonight. To our Pacific communities of Aotearoa, to our Orometua, our religious and faith leaders, our traditional leaders, chiefs and artists, and our mamas in particular, fa\u2018afetai. To all of you, I say: \u201CMeitaki Atupaka, Meitaki Ma\u2018ata, Meitaki Ranunui, Meitaki Kororeka, Faafetai, Faafetai tele lava, Fakafetai lasi, Fekauelahi, Malo Aupito, Vinaka Vakalevu\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThank you, thank you, thank you very, very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E[Applause, hongi, and harir\u016B]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014Ua Faafetai, Ua Faafetai, Ua Malie Mata E Vaai\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.20 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf7b7708157049c7a4200ef43da2abd3\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6b205a5c79d4afa952ff09c8c1061bb\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf389c2fed9b45a98c2f9a7757fc700b\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cd0b131ee3f4853b071486d7bdb85b8\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000498\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4b67df8b2554952b4995fc2496082eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4b67df8b2554952b4995fc2496082eb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, before we went on the dinner break, we were debating the third reading of the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill and the second reading of the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill. Tim van de Molen has five minutes and 38\u00A0seconds left, if he would like to take the call. I call on Rachel Boyack. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002279a9156e705943c082f6e99c828e6cba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279a9156e705943c082f6e99c828e6cba\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to take a call on the Budget from 2023, another outstanding wellbeing Budget from our aspirational Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson. I\u2019m proud to be a member of the team on the Labour side of the House, delivering for New Zealanders, especially during what are incredibly tough times for our country and for people around the globe. I want to make some points tonight specifically about the Budget and some of the initiatives that I know are benefiting the people in my community of Nelson but also across New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI said in the House last week how much I love public transport, and I\u2019m excited that I can share a little bit more information tonight about the incredible improvements we\u2019ve made to public transport in Nelson and Tasman. It\u2019s well-known that we have an area that does have congestion at those highdemand times of the day, and because of our geography, it\u2019s not a case of just adding more roads, because all you\u2019d do then is add more cars and you\u2019d end up in a situation where we\u2019d all just converge at the same point. We\u2019d just move that congestion from one part of the city to the other. As I said in my maiden speech, one of the travesties for transport in Nelson was the removal of our railway, which would right now have given us a transport corridor to transport goods and people throughout our region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo what I am so excited about is that our changes in Budget 2023 to support people through the cost of living and to reduce the price of public transport have come along at the exact same time that we have doubled the frequency of buses in Nelson, and they now go to places like Motueka. I can actually take a bus to go and visit my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor in the neighbouring electorate, and we can get on a bus out to Wakefield. We have an airport bus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe buses are electric buses, so we\u2019re reducing emissions, and at the exact same time we\u2019ve introduced free public transport for under-13s from Budget 2023, we\u2019ve introduced half-price public transport for people aged under 26, and we continue to have free off-peak travel for our seniors and half-price transport for people on the community services card. So you can get from Nelson to Richmond in my electorate for two bucks if you\u2019re using your Bee Card, and if you\u2019re one of those people getting half-price public transport, it\u2019s only a dollar to get the bus around Nelson. In the first week, we had a 44 percent increase in the usage of our bus services, and at the weekend, it was a 200\u00A0percent increase. It was a classic case of \u201CBuild it, and they will come\u201D, and the feedback I am getting from people around my electorate is that this is an investment that the Government has made that is making a real difference for people in Nelson. There are people able to get out and about who otherwise wouldn\u2019t have in the past because there wasn\u2019t a bus going near their place, and for many of those people, they can get on that bus for free or for only $1, thanks to our Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other amazing change that we made in the Budget which is making a real difference for people in my community is the removal of the $5 co-payment for prescriptions. Like many MPs across this House, I am sure we\u2019ve all visited pharmacies and seen the piles of unclaimed medicines sitting on the shelves. I know that for many people, being able to know that they can go to the doctor and then go to the pharmacy and collect that prescription without having to pay for it means they are much more likely to take that medication and they are far less likely to end up in hospital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe have seen the data now that 900,000 New Zealanders have collected 3 million prescriptions since we made this change, and I know that for many people, they\u2019ve turned up expecting to pay, worried about what that might mean for their budget\u2014because just remember, for people on low incomes, if you\u2019re getting two or three prescriptions, 15 bucks can be a huge cost. It can be the difference between buying bread and milk for the week. So we have made this change, and it\u2019s making a real difference for people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAnother initiative in this Budget that I absolutely love and that will deliver for people in Nelson is our commitment to building another 3,000 more State houses, and that\u2019s on top of our delivery of 13,000 public homes since Labour came into office. I know that in my electorate, we have a number of people who struggle to find affordable housing. We had no addition of State housing and only six more community homes built during the term of the National Government, and during that time the National Government claimed there wasn\u2019t a housing crisis. They claimed that the people in Nelson didn\u2019t need affordable housing. But I know that they do, because they come and see me in my electorate office every single week, and I know many of these people by name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI am so proud of what we have begun in Nelson. Earlier this year, we opened the first 14 Habitat for Humanity homes as part of our Progressive Home Ownership scheme. We have another five opening in Richmond soon, and another five being built in Stoke. We also have added a number of community homes through the fantastic provider that is the Nelson Tasman Housing Trust, and they have received support through the council and through our Government to build affordable rentals and also public homes that people who are on the housing waiting list can move into. These are warm, dry homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m also really excited about is the work that K\u0101inga Ora are doing in my region. We are starting to see an absolute ramp up of the building of State housing in Nelson, and it is so exciting. Just this year, we\u2019ve had homes built in Richmond that have opened, another round of homes being built in Richmond that are due to open soon, and another round of homes in Nelson\u2019s CBD that are due to start being built very, very soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe have a partnership with the Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology where apprentices\u2014so our fantastic construction apprentices\u2014are building State houses that are due to be moved very, very soon to the community of Nelson South. That is another area where we\u2019re planning to build nearly 50 new homes in my community\u2014where I live\u2014of Nelson South, and this is a piece of work that we have been waiting on in Nelson for decades to lift up the number of affordable homes, because we are one of the most unaffordable regions in New Zealand when you compare wages against house prices. It\u2019s cheaper to buy a home in Christchurch, but you could earn more money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo my commitment and our Government\u2019s commitment for Nelson is to ensure that those people on the waiting list won\u2019t have to be waiting too much longer, because we are building homes for them, and that is because we believe in the Labour Government\u2014unlike the previous National Government, who sold these houses off, we believe that the State has a role to play in housing our people. It is our job to ensure that every New Zealander has a warm, dry, safe, affordable home, and I will not rest and we will not rest until we know that every New Zealander can go to sleep at night knowing they have the security of an affordable, warm home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut on the other side, we have the coalition of cuts. Where we are investing on this side of the House, that lot over there have plans to cut many of the policies that I know are making a real difference for our people. We can expect no more winter energy payment for everyone who needs it. They\u2019ve said already that they will remove the free prescriptions for many, many people, which will make a terrible difference to people. I\u2019ve heard no commitment from anyone on that side of the House for the Nelson Hospital, which we are rebuilding and that we have committed $1 billion to, and I\u2019m so proud of our Government\u2019s commitment to health infrastructure so that we can ensure we have hospitals being built up and down this country to ensure that our communities get the healthcare they deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of my biggest concerns is their plan to remove fair pay agreements, because on this side of the House we know that one of the best ways we can address the cost of living challenges that we face in New Zealand is to lift the incomes of the lowest-paid people. That side of the House is offering them two bucks a week. They want to give $1,000 a week in tax cuts to the wealthiest New Zealanders, and yet they\u2019re somehow promising that they can reduce revenue but increase spending. It is just bizarre. Their economic triangle that involves also, somehow, paying debt down faster when, again, they\u2019re reducing revenue\u2014it just does not add up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we are committed to ensuring that we are investing for New Zealand. We are committed, as a Government, to supporting people through these difficult times. We will continue to invest in our lowest-paid workers. We will continue to build State houses. We will continue to build more hospitals. We will continue to make public transport more affordable. But the coalition of cuts will deliver nothing but pain and devastation to our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u00223e24d67e6b6841eeb1dce20c69e570e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e24d67e6b6841eeb1dce20c69e570e3\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Otir\u0101, e ng\u0101 mema katoa o te Whare nei, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill on behalf of Te Paati M\u0101ori. As is our custom, it\u2019s important that I acknowledge a dear kaum\u0101tua by the name Heemi Kara, from the marae of the Prime Minister, at \u014Crongomai Marae in Upper Hutt, who, sadly, passed away over this weekend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo, e te rangatira kua whet\u016Brangitia, haere, haere, moe mai r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E[So, oh esteemed one who has passed away, rest in peace.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIn taking this call on this bill, I just want to acknowledge that this week was the 17year anniversary of K\u012Bngi T\u016Bheitia\u2019s reign. I mention that because, on the paepae, he mentioned change was important. In fact, one of the speakers from the pae addressed the fact that only 2 percent of Treaty settlements that are settled with iwi across this country amounts to 2 percent of what was actually lost, which then equated to the further statement that 98 percent was goodwill\u201498 percent was goodwill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s look at this Budget. It will come as no surprise that Te Paati M\u0101ori and I will be voting against it, simply because our tax system is doing exactly what it was designed to do: take money from the poor and give it to the rich. The richest 10 percent now own half the wealth in this country, while the poorest owns a mere 2 percent. On top of that, average people in Aotearoa pay 20.2 percent in tax, while the wealthy only pay 9.4 percent. It is time, Madam Speaker, we rectify this imbalance. We\u2019ve all seen the growing wealth inequality in our country. This Government\u2019s inaction on housing and response to COVID-19 has seen a massive transfer of wealth from ordinary people to the richest in our society. This is on top of the entrenched poverty that our people have been experiencing for generations. It is unacceptable that over 2 million people in Aotearoa earn less than $30,000 per year. Nearly 50 percent of our working population do not earn enough money to survive, let alone thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ETe Paati M\u0101ori\u2019s vision is simple, yet profound: to shift the burden of tax from the poor to the wealthy, and to restore fairness and economic justice. We believe in an Aotearoa hou, where ordinary people don\u2019t have to subsidise the extravagant lifestyles of the rich. No one should go hungry while supermarkets are making record profits. No one should be homeless when there are enough vacant houses to house everybody. Wh\u0101nau should not have to choose between paying their bills on time or taking their babies to the doctor. We will no longer accept any excuses from the two major parties, who are fighting to keep people poor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWe are putting our pou in the ground. Now is the time for radical change, just like K\u012Bngi T\u016Bheitia said yesterday. Our tamariki are literally hungry for it. Te Paati M\u0101ori has a plan which would see 4.2 million people paying less tax in Aotearoa. That means more kai on the table. It means wh\u0101nau being able to afford their own homes instead of being forced to pay off someone else\u2019s mortgage in rent. It means reinvesting into those who need it the most. It\u2019s time for the wealthy to start pulling their weight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWe hear a lot of talk about unprecedented times, but we aren\u2019t seeing any unprecedented solutions. We stand on the precipice of an Aotearoa hou, a new era of Aotearoa, one where economic justice shouldn\u2019t be just a dream but becomes a reality. What does an Aotearoa hou look like? Let me remind you. It looks like how we treat you on our marae: we will welcome you, we will feed you, we will house you, we will love you. Unfortunately, this government has lacked the vision to usher in the Aotearoa hou that our people deserve. No one should be hungry, no one should be homeless, and no one should have to feel unsafe. We envisage an Aotearoa hou where every wh\u0101nau is thriving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s time for transformative solutions to redistribute wealth, to restore economic justice, and bring an end to poverty. And we can do this by removing GST from all kai and regulating the ability of supermarkets to hike prices. We can do it by removing income tax for low-income wh\u0101nau. We can do it by increasing income tax on those earning more than $200,000. We can do it by increasing the corporate tax rate from 28 percent to 33 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EBut we go further. We talk about the wealth tax that I\u2019ve just outlined, but there\u2019s also taxes on foreign companies who earn their earnings in Aotearoa and transfer them overseas. They should be made to pay. There\u2019s much land that is banked in this country, sitting idle. It should be forced to pay tax. And, of course, there are many vacant houses, that if we were to tax them and bring them back on the market, we wouldn\u2019t have the homelessness that we currently have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve touched on a few policies that Te Paati M\u0101ori are putting up in this year\u2019s election that are going to rebalance an unfair and unjust tax system. This is what we were looking for in this bill; we didn\u2019t see it. This is why we are voting against it. Like T\u016Bheitia said, it is time for change. And as Te Paati M\u0101ori says: he Aotearoa hou\u2014by M\u0101ori, for all. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae091c97f7ac492f9931fb3a95048c93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae091c97f7ac492f9931fb3a95048c93\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. This is a good Budget and it\u2019s a privilege to speak on it today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019ve joined the House after a quick trip to Manurewa High School, and I wish to reflect on that visit because it was very important to me to be able to start my week in Parliament in that way. After caucus committees this morning, I went to Auckland and met with the Rt Hon Dame Jacinda Ardern at a high school which is special to her in Manurewa. It was a really special moment to be welcomed into the school hall by the students to celebrate their performing arts of the school, particularly the M\u0101ori performing arts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThey have a student-led production about Ng\u0101 Maunga Whakahii o Manurewa, the two mountains that have been almost quarried away to nothing\u2014Matukurua\u2014and it tells that story. That is a celebration of New Zealand histories and schools, given life by this art that the students put together today. It\u2019s on Monday, 6 o\u2019clock at the Due Drop Centre if you\u2019d like to check it out. We were also treated to a performance by the hip-hop group and by the choir\u2014who, for the first time, are in the finals of The Big Sing on Saturday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a Budget which invests in the future of those kids. This is a Budget which also addresses the things which matter most to them right now. As the two head prefects, Lolo and Paige, said to me this morning, \u201CKeep going.\u201D There is so much more that this Government has to do to address the things which matter most to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBecause these kids are affected by the global economic situation right now. Inflation affects them in a way that many of us in here will never experience and have never experienced in our lives. The effect of their parents struggling to put food on the table. The effect on their education when there\u2019s pressure on them to\u2014like many of their friends in school\u2014go out and get a second job. The effect of them not being able to play sports on the weekends or, as Lolo has been able to do, to sing in the choir because he will need to be another earner in their household.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat is why this Labour Government is razor-focused on a cost of living package that delivers for these families. That\u2019s why things like the scrapping the costs of a prescription make a real difference in South Auckland. Because though for these kids it\u2019s free to pick up their prescriptions, for their parents it was not. That meant that their mums, their dads, their kuia kaum\u0101tua didn\u2019t have the same access to medicines that they did. That meant a continuous cycle of being sick, of not going to go to school, of not being able to go to work. By removing that co-payment, we\u2019ve made a difference in these families\u2019 lives and we\u2019ve made it better to be a South Aucklander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe changes that we\u2019ve made by introducing free public transport for kids and young people makes a difference to them. It means that they can get to school for free; that they can travel to Auckland. Some of these kids in Manurewa High School, they\u2019ve never seen the Sky Tower. It is so important to our kids that we give them a mobility and a sense of their place in our city. Can I mention that this Budget also funded an $18 million package of transport investment into Manurewa through the Better Travel Choices package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut on Browns Road, the bike lane that is protected, that goes to Manurewa High School, where young people travel every day on their bikes\u2014and there\u2019s a thriving bicycle club at that school\u2014was rejected by the Manurewa Local Board that is held by a majority of National Party members. It is a shame that this Government has invested in local transport solutions\u2014that our high school students are asking for\u2014that our local members have rejected purely on ideological reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also making a difference to these kids that we\u2019re investing to make their energy bills cheaper and to keep their kuia kaum\u0101tua\u2014their nans and pops\u2014warm in the winter. It means that these kids will have their grandparents around for longer. It means that they\u2019re able to visit and it will be warm and it will be dry and it will be good to be in their homes. It\u2019s so important for so many South Auckland families that we have those intergenerational connections, and I\u2019m really proud that this Government has invested in superannuation and invested in care for our kuia kaum\u0101tua; for our older people. It\u2019s important to these kids too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt was an emotional morning for me at the school because these kids also got to talk about those choices that they saw a Government make that was for them. The care that Dame Jacinda Ardern had shown to South Auckland and the decisions about the COVID19 pandemic meant so much to these kids, who are deeply involved in the community organising around vaccinating the communities. These kids got on the phones, they called their peers, they called the families of people in the high school to make sure that they got vaccinated. These kids were leaders during that time, and their service to the community cannot be undersold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m so proud of Manurewa High School that feeds 2,000 people in our community every day because of their free school lunches programmes. It is so important that this Government continues to support the work of that school community and I commend this bill, which does so much for them; so much for the school; so much for the kids; so much for the school leaders in the community; so much for Principal Pete Jones, who I\u2019m very, very proud of; and Manurewa High School. Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity for me to speak on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c35087cb47254be3a13feae4af0bda4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c35087cb47254be3a13feae4af0bda4a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c06262adde674f4cb4bd62fd7f2e7915\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill be now read a third time and the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000537\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000538\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00220152634b1f2844d09a2c8750a37e3f44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220152634b1f2844d09a2c8750a37e3f44\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill is set down for third reading immediately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa7d936f4e184f4b823ef7382818d70c\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002263a93f5ee23648cfba1b511b4311e3c8\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221d2e5e9b9bce4801ac615358ccf3bb70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d2e5e9b9bce4801ac615358ccf3bb70\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225537a630b81240d6a2e612f3008a0ff0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Imprest Supply (Second for 2023/24) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000543\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d48bbd3cba704df1ac6c74654a4b1fdb\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e02fda56dc243cda2a6bbae9591e6d3\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec8e8716706a49faab43b9256d662eb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec8e8716706a49faab43b9256d662eb8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the remaining stages of the Water Services Legislation Bill; the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill; the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill; the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill; the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill; the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill; the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill; the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill; the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill; the Legal Services Amendment Bill; and the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe House is now in the final sitting block before the election. This motion follows the longestablished practice of giving the House extra time in this period in which to complete its programme. When we rise on 31 August, we will not sit again for two to three months with the summer break, then close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe emergency motion now before the House includes a range of legislation that is important to pass in order to complete the work of the very busy 53rd Parliament in the limited time remaining. The two bills that will complete the reform of water services are prime examples. They are the work of this Parliament, particularly the Finance and Expenditure Committee, the members of which spent hundreds of hours listening to submissions. It is right that the current Parliament should see its work through to a conclusion, and that the decades of waiting for action over our deteriorating water infrastructure can come to an end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EA common feature of many of the bills in this motion is that they bring about significant change in their sector and a delay in their passing would mean that preparations for their implementation would be frustrated by those awaiting the changes. The Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill is a good example of this. The passing of the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill will give more time for changes that result from it to be put in place before the next local government elections. The passing of the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill meets New Zealand\u2019s obligations under the Free Trade Agreement with the United Kingdom, expertly negotiated by my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor. It is important to enact this bill as soon as possible in the interests of getting the very best out of this key agreement for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EEarlier today, the Government requested that the Business Committee agree to hold oral questions at 2 p.m. on Wednesday and Thursday, as is normal. I thank the House for its consideration of the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226f373ccbce444fe58f577dfb4c3c553a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded the remaining stages of the Water Services Legislation Bill, the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill, the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill, the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill, the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill, the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill, the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill, the Legal Services Amendment Bill, and the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225152e94550484590a8921d2e5c5f055f\u0022\u003EWater Services Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dae3251424a543afa14d478071eb8300\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002288164712fe834aa8a8ace3f8ca66be66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288164712fe834aa8a8ace3f8ca66be66\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Local Government: I present a legislative statement on the Water Services Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db59d1b443b24da1ad2e782eb45c15a9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220e725a75a794a858dff336b13a1ee22\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Water Services Legislation Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI present a legislative statement on the Water Services Legislation Bill. As I said, I move that it be read a second time. I\u2019m pleased to speak on the bill, today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259df4b4f247a4b6398a8e04d77443e02\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef2a314e74e46158f0456e97b0c2c2d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014on behalf of the Minister of Local Government\u2014I\u2019m thrilled to speak on the bill, actually. Forming part of the water reform suite of legislation, it will help to optimise New Zealand\u2019s water system to help us better manage new challenges and to provide water infrastructure services that are safe, reliable, resilient, and affordable\u2014because they are not, now. It\u2019s another key step towards ensuring New Zealand will have the water infrastructure and services we need to support better health and environmental outcomes and healthy, prosperous, and growing communities\u2014now and into the future, which is something this Government is concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill is a step towards ensuring that New Zealand has water infrastructure and services that deliver safe and affordable drinking water. It is a step towards ensuring that our water network is resilient to extreme weather events. It will help to support new housing and urban development, and it will ensure that our water infrastructure and services operate sustainably within our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAs mentioned, this bill is part of a suite of legislation that will reform the delivery of New Zealand\u2019s drinking-water, waste-water, and stormwater services. For those who didn\u2019t notice, it did have an impact in Auckland\u2014some of those storms. The Water Services Entities Act, which passed in December 2022, enabled the reform and set the framework for establishing the water services entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill sets out the function of those entities and provides them with the tools they need to carry out these functions. It enables modern regulatory and service delivery arrangements that will replace existing powers under existing local government legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to briefly remind the House of the most important components of the Water Services Legislation Bill. This bill contains the regulatory functions and powers for the entities. It enables the entities to make secondary legislation to effectively manage water services infrastructure, deliver safe drinking water, and protect the environment, among other objectives. For example, this includes stormwater management strategies, which will comprehensively set out the entities approach to managing the impacts of stormwater. This is, of course, important in the country\u2019s work to develop solutions to challenges around the changing climate. The entities will have their own modernised compliance and enforcement regime to enforce these functions. This is a major step forward as the Local Government Act, which was passed in 2002, is no longer fit for this purpose. New Zealanders need to be sure their drinking water arrangements are appropriately protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill also establishes charging mechanisms to provide fair, transparent, equitable, and affordable charges to households and businesses for water services. It sets out the path for transitioning to the new system and integrates the water services entities into wider regulatory frameworks\u2014for example, the resource management system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee, who considered more than 460\u00A0submissions on this bill. I\u2019d also like to thank the local government sector and other interested groups and individuals who made submissions on the bill. In particular, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the work of councils and other water sector specialists in this respect, who engaged deeply with the bill and provided specific, technical recommendations that assisted the committee\u2019s work and, ultimately, provided more practical, workable legislation\u2014the Government does listen, always. As a result of this work by submitters and the committee, we now have in our hands a further optimised piece of legislation, along with amendments, that will ensure the legislation is workable for the water services entities and the communities that they serve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s look at some of the key areas of change recommended by the committee. The bill provides for relationship agreements, which will be critical in supporting the important links between the entities and other parties, including councils. These agreements set out how the entities and other parties will engage with each other and work together. For example, they set out how territorial authorities, regional councils, and water service entities will work together to effectively plan under the resource management system. Relationship agreements ensure that there is an ability to reflect the unique circumstances of different regions around the country, and ensure that entities and councils have the flexibility to agree on day-to-day operational arrangements that work for them. The committee has strengthened the relationship agreements by making them binding on the parties, with a statutory disputes resolution process. The committee also recommended that relationship agreements will need to be entered into three months before the entities\u2019 go-live date, to ensure that they are in place before each entity does go live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESecondly, under the affordable water reforms, around 75 council owned mixed-use rural water supplies will transfer to the water services entities. These supplies provide water for agricultural or horticultural purposes, along with drinking water for households. The Government has listened to rural communities\u2019 concerns about this change in arrangements for these schemes, and recognises their importance. That is why this bill allows for the users of these schemes to work together with water service entities to transfer ownership and management of these supplies back to the communities they serve. In addition, the committee has introduced rural supply plans in this bill, which the entity must have for each small, mixed-use rural water supply in its service area that remains under its ownership. The rural supply plan will provide better recognition of the special nature of these schemes and ensure that farming communities can continue to be involved in their management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThirdly, there is a change with regard to the bill looking to the challenges we are facing as a result of changing climate, with new mechanisms to support the comprehensive management of stormwater. The committee has recommended that stormwater management plans and rules will be integrated into a single instrument: the stormwater management strategy. This will provide a system-based approach to stormwater networks and their regulation. The bill also provides for stormwater risk management plans. These seek to identify risks and hazards relating to watercourses on land not owned by the entities. There is a new requirement that the entity must work collaboratively with landowners to ensure that the risk is managed, controlled, monitored, or eliminated, if a\u2014Madam Speaker, sorry. If a collaborative approach cannot be agreed upon or is not implemented, the entity must implement a solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Government has also listened to councils\u2019 concerns about the transfer provisions for councilcontrolled organisations. These will now only apply to a council-controlled organisation whose predominant purpose is to support territorial authorities in their management and operation of water services. The \u201Cpredominant purpose\u201D is defined in the bill as 85 percent or more of revenue from provision of water-related services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EChristchurch\u2019s Citycare is now exempt from the transfer provisions due to the special nature of the contracting work it does for councils across New Zealand. The bill, as reported back from the committee, also provides that council-controlled organisations can be excluded from the transfer arrangements in the future if it is determined that they also have special characteristics that mean a transfer would be undesirable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBy-laws are an important and complex area for councils and entities. Existing by-laws will continue either until an entity makes an equivalent water services, or until the end of the transitional period. The water services entities will have the compliance and enforcement powers in relation to by-laws. Water service entities will be required to enter into relationship agreements relating to bylaws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe committee also made amendments to ensure that the integrity, intent, and effect of the Treaty settlements are upheld by the entities. These changes represent a holding pattern until such time that the Crown and iwi have completed discussions on the changes required to Treaty settlements in greater depth, and provide a process for amending Treaty settlement Acts that are impacted by the water services reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn addition to the improvements I have mentioned, I have tabled a Supplementary Order Paper to make a number of minor and technical amendments to the bill in order to ensure the legislative regime is consistent and workable across water services legislation and the new resource management system. This includes changes relating to establishment dates for the entities that result from the move to a staggered approach in the now amended Water Services Entities Act. The Supplementary Order Paper includes a few other\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002244c8262fb28e44788486801c034149d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244c8262fb28e44788486801c034149d5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Unfortunately, the member\u2019s time is up. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002231f8eace4f81456e9c9c6d5d60f6fb1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231f8eace4f81456e9c9c6d5d60f6fb1c\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I think you were right, Madam Speaker. The time is up! And that\u2019s exactly what\u2019s happening tonight. Another round of urgency and isn\u2019t it interesting that out of all the four three water bills\u2014because that\u2019s what it is; we\u2019re not allowed to talk about three waters any more on that side of the House, but it\u2019s another three waters bill\u2014all four of them have been brought in under urgency. All four of them! The Leader of the House, when he passed the urgency motion, talked about all these bills having a common feature. Boy, do they have a common feature. They\u2019ve been rushed through under urgency because they\u2019ve gone down like a cup of cold sick out around New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not surprised that they\u2019re now trying to lowball this bill, because really, who on that side of the House would want to be talking about three waters after last night\u2019s poll? They walk in today battered and bruised and then they say, \u201CWell it couldn\u2019t get any worse.\u201D, and then the whip says \u201CYes, it can. You\u2019re on the speaking list to talk about three waters again.\u201D, and then the member for the West Coast has to get up and talk. Boy, you could see the tail of that rat dangling out his mouth as he chewed on it, as he knows how three waters has gone down on the West Coast. But he\u2019s been around a while and, in fairness, he kept a brave face. He had to, for the young ones. He had to keep the ship steady because he knows it\u2019s tanking and he knows what\u2019s going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EOf course it is interesting, when I heard the Minister speak and he went through his very perfunctory report\u2014it\u2019s interesting that back in the days it was about the cost of living. Remember what three waters was about? It was the cost of living. Now I think there was some sort of mumbled response to weather events. That\u2019s the problem with these bills. It\u2019s that every time they\u2019re changed\u2014but in fact all they need to do is listen to the submitters. And what I thought was very interesting from that member\u2019s speech tonight was that there was very little about the select committee stage and the overwhelming opposition from the submitters to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s remember what this bill is about. It\u2019s an omnibus bill that will establish and empower the water services entities. Remember them, the water services entities? The Government started off with four of them and then, obviously, they had to have a back down. So they put another bill in and now there\u2019s ten of them and it\u2019s going to establish and empower water service entities. The reason why the submitters opposed this bill is that under these water service entities they will facilitate State theft of locally owned water assets. That\u2019s exactly what this bill does: it enables the transfer of locally owned public assets from councils to unaccounted, unaccountable mega entities. That\u2019s exactly the detail of this bill that we\u2019re talking about in the second reading as it goes through under urgency, because the reality is the Government\u2019s run out of time. It\u2019s an absolute shambles and that\u2019s why the submitters overwhelmingly opposed the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo for the Minister to get up tonight and say that, well, they listened in the select committee process; they didn\u2019t, because the submitters were opposed to it. Of course, let\u2019s also remember, not only will it be State theft of locally owned assets, this bill will set up the pricing and charging arrangements for water services, and overwhelmingly the submitters oppose that. The reason they oppose that is because there\u2019s going to be a blanket charge across the whole water entity. There will be no variation for communities that local governments and councils allowed for in their pricing structures. So you\u2019re going to have small communities cross-subsidising larger ones. That was the point of keeping it locally controlled for local councils, because they know their communities. Now there\u2019s only going to be the mega entities who will set a fixed price across the water entity. That\u2019s what people are opposed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThey\u2019re opposed to the confiscation of their assets and they\u2019re opposed to the uniform charge across, because of course\u2014and I\u2019d like to say, \u201CWell done, Simon Watts\u201D. He\u2019s been very clear and concise, outlining very articulately National\u2019s policy on three waters and what we will do. It is very clear that this issue will come straight back to Parliament after the election, because when National is in Government, we will repeal this bill and replace it. What we know is that communities know best, and we\u2019re going to back local councils because they know what\u2019s best in it for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EIf we go back, we\u2019ve had the Water Services Entities Act 2022, which set up three waters. Then we had to have an amendment, the Water Services Entities Amendment Act 2023, which backed down on the four entities and set up 10. Now we\u2019ve got the Water Services Legislation Bill, which will establish and enable water services entities. What\u2019s been very clear through this whole process is that this has been a sham. Decisions have been made before consultations have proceeded. It\u2019s all been about decisions made behind closed doors. Remember when the Government promised councils that they could opt out? Then Official Information Act documents revealed it was a legislated all-in right from the start. So there\u2019s no good faith. These trilogies of bills have turned up in the House. In fact, it\u2019s bad blood. And that\u2019s exactly why three waters has gone down like a cup of cold sick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe reality is voters don\u2019t trust this Labour Government. They\u2019re sick of them talking out both sides of the mouth. Remember that advertising campaign with the green sludge coming out of taps that they had to pull off the ads that used taxpayers\u2019 money? That was disingenuous. This Government talks about misinformation and disinformation. They should look at themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be very clear. National will repeal three waters and scrap the 10 co-government mega entities. We will restore council ownership and control, set strict rules for water quality and investment in infrastructure, and ensure water services are financially stable. On behalf of the National Party and our local government spokesperson Simon Watts, soon to be the Minister for local government, who will work with that sector\u2014he will listen to them and most of all he will return assets stolen from this Government back to the councils so they\u2019re locally controlled and accountable to the people who paid for them. But of course, as we\u2019ve learnt through this whole process of four bills through three waters, Labour knows best, Wellington knows best, and what they\u2019re going to learn on 14 October is that they didn\u2019t know that at all. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022158c618c3c37402aae20eda3f3a131a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022158c618c3c37402aae20eda3f3a131a2\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E As the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee which oversaw this, I\u2019d like to report to the House that despite the polarisation of the affordable water reforms, the select committee amendments passed unanimously. It shows a level of collegiality and consensus that\u2019s not captured in the political debate and media coverage. It is clear that the previous speaker, Matt Doocey, wasn\u2019t actually across the bill, which is unfortunate because it would have been good to have a debate about the really detailed and technical aspects of this bill, which covers 292 pages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESome of the areas that the select committee worked on together collegially, as I said, were about making the relationship agreements between water services entities, councils, and transport corridor managers binding. That was making sure that the binding nature of that underpinned any servicelevel agreements in that there was a prescribed set of mandatory requirements, that there was a binding dispute resolution system, and that the agreements be signed three months prior to the establishment of the water services entities. It also enabled the Minister of Local Government to step in and prescribe the terms not agreed to so that the relationships would be negotiated in good faith and with a willingness to support the reform system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere were changes to the rural water supplies, and I\u2019d like to thank the submitters from the Clutha district in my own electorate of Taieri for giving us plenty of food for thought. The really big area of change was around stormwater. That was big, it was significant, and I\u2019d really like to acknowledge the Hon Phil Twyford for his hard work and perseverance in this. The Minister that just gave the legislative statement spoke about collaboration. I would like to say the characterisation, from my perspective as the chair of the committee, added to that collaboration is clarity around responsibility and accountability for those waterways. I\u2019m sure my colleague will speak to that more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe Act now supports urban growth. It requires the water services entities to be responsive to developers via a development code, and that\u2019s able to be enforced by the Commerce Commission to avoid the chilling effect of protracted litigation. Matt Doocey referred to the pricing, but, actually, as well as enabling geographic averaging to achieve pricing efficiencies, there are also added provisions to recognise vulnerable consumers and the fundamental right of all people to have access to clean and safe water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy final comment, despite anything you might hear in this House to the contrary, is that we made some comments about the process as a select committee. Given that what is technical and what is substantive can be a moot point, we ourselves took the approach of creating a schedule of all changes so we could be across absolutely everything. We had the added scrutiny of two independent advisers in this regard. It is my firm view that the officials did their job; we did ours. We made our comments and the system worked as it should have. Let me be very clear for the record that that is what happened, nothing more, nothing less, and I am very happy with where the legislation landed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Hon Nanaia Mahuta for her initial work, and the Hon Kieran McAnulty for shepherding it through. I want to thank all the officials for their incredibly hard work and the independent advisers and the committee for their scrutiny of this very technical bill. It was a privilege to chair the committee through this important piece of legislation and I really recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba3cd34c8c0c4be4a63215d21686e4a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba3cd34c8c0c4be4a63215d21686e4a3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Water Services Legislation Bill, the National Party will oppose. As our previous speaker, Matt Doocey, said, we will reverse this legislation later this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe nature of three waters and the Labour Party is quite interesting\u2014why they actually want to progress it at this stage. Why have they been so keen on having this Parliament in urgency for the last couple of weeks, and this week, to pass this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5579ba3f6f4f6e9e9b76a6de20020f\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re taking responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0f5e78edf54d0195fc4a547fd1dbbc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour member over there says \u201Cresponsibility\u201D\u2014I\u2019ll come back to that. The reality is that they have no faith in what they\u2019re going to deliver at this election. This is an insurance policy from the Labour Party if they have to go into coalition with other parties. They\u2019re pushing through as much of their agenda now so that\u2014just say they were in a coalition which they don\u2019t have control over\u2014they\u2019ve got the vast majority of what their agenda is. That\u2019s the only reason you would do that now. Why would you have your MPs here, not campaigning, and have them doing bills like this if it isn\u2019t an insurance policy? I see a couple of smirks from the Labour members of Parliament, because they know that they\u2019ve discussed this at caucus and that is the reason they are doing it. They know they\u2019re not doing it out of any genuine legislative requirement. The member over there said, \u201CWe\u2019re doing it because we needed to.\u201D That\u2019s a falsity. The Labour Party has dressed up the idea of water quality in New Zealand as requiring them to do this agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThey have used one example of an issue that can happen any time. After this legislation, it could well happen. That has enabled them to promote legislation around three waters, because it\u2019s so vital now because everybody\u2019s at risk from the water they drink! The water we drink tonight could be at risk! That\u2019s what the Labour Party is saying. Our fundamental water system is broken! We need to be out there doing it! What a load of rubbish\u2014an absolute load of rubbish. New Zealand has some of the best water quality for drinking water in the world, and the Labour Party are using one instance as an excuse to try and create an agenda. This isn\u2019t about getting better water quality for our communities, it isn\u2019t about saving money for our communities\u2014and I\u2019ll come back to that\u2014this is simply to reinforce their co-governance role that they have dictated to. This is what the Labour Party has done. They\u2019ve done a deal in their caucus around co-governance of water, and they have to push that through before the election, just in case they\u2019re in coalition with Winston after the election\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022803d6344c08948c3926ba98238c0f540\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will now talk about this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262503c4d754c411db6fe2f7927e4cc58\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I thought you wanted his full name\u2014Winston Peters, they\u2019ll be in coalition with. But, coming back to the bill, one of the big things in the bill is actually the cost. The Labour members over there have talked about that already. They\u2019re saying this will save consumers\u2014save ratepayers. It just doesn\u2019t happen that way. How can a water system that is deficient\u2014that\u2019s the Labour Party\u2019s argument. If you just put it all together, it\u2019s suddenly got a lot of capital to change all the problems that you\u2019ve got in the system. How does that work? Where does that come from? That\u2019s what the Labour Party is saying. All they\u2019re really doing is robbing one council to pay another council, and they are doing that time and time again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENow, when submissions were in around the water services bills, all these councils came forward and said that they were against the bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e3655a699d4b51961a1589a83f1c87\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Which bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a36717ba0544f5bae7751ed096582d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not just this bill; it\u2019s the combination. They were against them, and the Minister went on this glorious trip around New Zealand listening to these councils. Not one of the councils\u2019 wishes was actually made to happen. The bills still went ahead; they didn\u2019t stop it. It\u2019s predominantly rural councils that have invested more and got their infrastructure at a good level that are now going to pay for some urban councils that have spent their money on cycleways and playgrounds. That\u2019s, effectively, what\u2019s going to happen. The greatest example is actually Whang\u0101rei. Whang\u0101rei has actually got one of the best water systems in New Zealand\u2014they\u2019ve invested in it\u2014and they\u2019re going to take that off them and make it part of Auckland. Then Whang\u0101rei is going to lose that investment\u2014the growth that could have happened in Whang\u0101rei\u2014because, over the next 20 years, that\u2019ll be run down. That\u2019ll be run down because that money has got to go into Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EHow do you pay for the changes in Auckland around stormwater? Because they\u2019re not going to be a billion dollars. Nobody can tell me that you\u2019re going to be swimming in those eastern suburbs or North Shore beaches for a billion dollars. There\u2019s no way that\u2019s going to happen\u2014no way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd06a0cc9e0e4c6a98c3b74c6399bf6d\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Do you think we should be able to swim in the beaches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a226d7a7c144dd3a4547adf9e999da5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CDo you think we should be able to swim in the beaches?\u201D\u2014well, of course you should be able to swim in the beaches. But somebody\u2019s going to pay for the change. They\u2019re saying, \u201CIt\u2019s only a billion dollars to fix up Auckland stormwater.\u201D I don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to happen that way. Wellington\u2014what\u2019s the percentage of water actually lost every day in Wellington through leaky pipes? It\u2019s horrendous. And you\u2019re going to fix that? How much is that going to cost? \u201CThat can\u2019t be a billion dollars. That\u2019s got to be, like, $200 million, because it\u2019s not as big as the Auckland problem.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the reality for these guys. They actually believe that they can do something with nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2e645d982654763a127a08cc9fddd6e\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re mathematically illiterate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a1258941a944ba0882547d2482c5afc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not that they\u2019re mathematically illiterate\u2014because Grant knows, and Grant\u2019s told them in caucus that this will work, and they all believe Grant, because Grant has never been wrong!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aafa830d03e4b26a6b8d0b40e343da9\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I believe that, if the member is referring to a member of this House, he should use the member\u2019s name, not the first name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022905f376756894096858d0b4833df5a0b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m quite happy to say Grant Robertson can\u2019t be wrong! Grant Robertson has told these members and they\u2019ve lapped it up as good little lap dogs would, and they believe in what Grant Robertson said about the economy coming right and \u201CDon\u2019t worry about the economy.\u201D Suddenly, it\u2019s dawning on them now, two months out from election, that Grant Robertson might have told them a fib. Grant Robertson might have actually not told them the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236910e80a90947918ed9c35866faf24b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I would like the member to come back to this particular bill instead of talking about someone who might not have told\u2014you were not there. Can you just come back to the bill. You\u2019re trying to make a story up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229edcb9e4a122495e861902d81d531757\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I wasn\u2019t there, but I\u2019ve heard from others that were there about what actually happened, so I\u2019ve got a pretty good idea what happened there. You can see it on their faces, because they\u2019re starting to realise; it\u2019s starting to tick over in their minds that maybe this isn\u2019t such a great idea. Maybe we have been conned\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8f15f2939814ad9847da402e2bab3a1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: And maybe you should just come back to the bill, before I get you to sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242d67fc8b62a4e618b69736931f20ea3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It takes some time to get the Labour members to understand what is actually happening to them, and it\u2019s very difficult, because they\u2019ve been brainwashed in caucus time and time again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7a1d07ee1bc4251a1eab880dde1679c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014talk about the bill, the Hon David Bennett. Come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2bc49b5de5949939b2844d6b44f68a8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Three waters is their great solution to the water issues in New Zealand, but nobody\u2019s going to pay for it! Now, I\u2019m sure Simon Court is going to stand up and say the same thing, because he\u2019s brought up the same arguments in the select committee. He understands that you\u2019re not going to magically solve Auckland\u2019s stormwater issues\u2014stormwater is a big part of the bill; around $1 billion. You\u2019re not going to solve Wellington\u2019s failing water system with the small amount of money they are talking about. What this bill actually does is co-governance and then makes New Zealand ratepayers pay again for it, and it won\u2019t actually achieve anything, because the Labour Party has never achieved anything in six years. While they think they can do something out of nothing, the reality is that nothing actually happens. That\u2019s what we\u2019ve seen from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders aren\u2019t that silly. New Zealanders understand that you just don\u2019t put all the entities together and suddenly have this magic pot of money that\u2019s going to solve all the issues and that you can swim in the beach because the Labour Party has put the three entities to 10 entities and made them all perfect. The reality is that the New Zealand public don\u2019t believe Grant Robertson. The Labour Party members of Parliament\u2014the 30 on the backbench\u2014that have believed him are starting to realise the folly of their ways. This bill is just another example of a failing Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00223fa2b88591834c04bfb8bc8032cf7f5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fa2b88591834c04bfb8bc8032cf7f5f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E A river runs through my electorate called Te Waio-Pareira, otherwise known as Henderson Creek, and every time there\u2019s a heavy rainstorm, raw sewage floods that river. And the reason it does that is that for decades, successive councils have failed to build the infrastructure needed to support a growing city. In January, about 1,000 people in my electorate in West Auckland suffered catastrophic flooding. Why? A heavy rain event, sure, but, again, a total failure by Auckland Council over multiple decades to build the stormwater infrastructure needed to support a growing city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI am happy to say that with the passage of this bill through the House, we will see a specialist water agency whose job it is to deliver, maintain, and manage stormwater and waste-water networks in the city. It will be able to borrow two to three times as much as Watercare currently can, because its balance sheet will have been separated from Auckland Council\u2019s balance sheet and it will be freed from the shackles of the rating agencies. Thirdly, it will have a detailed and comprehensive legislative mandate that, for the first time ever, will require these entities to do the job of managing stormwater in our communities. There is no such legislative mandate currently. There is no way to hold councils accountable for, in the case of Auckland, its manifest failure to manage stormwater properly in that city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to make a brief remark about one aspect of the work that the select committee did in scrutinising this bill, and I want to thank the Minister, the Hon Duncan Webb, for his willingness to engage with our committee and allow us\u2014and when I say \u201Cus\u201D, I mean all the members of the committee, because in spite of the huffing and the puffing by ACT and by National in this House, in the select committee room the members of that committee worked together in a way that was sensible and adult and collegial in the best interests of our country. Together we developed new policy. The committee developed new policy to change the way that the responsibility for managing the streams that make up the urban stormwater network in Auckland is managed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe current problem in Auckland, which was so exposed by the weather events earlier this year, is that Auckland has had a stormwater by-law from 2015 which says that if an urban stream passes through private property or abuts private property, the responsibility for maintaining it and clearing any blockages lies with the private landowner. It is a nonsense, an absolute nonsense, because those urban streams pass through literally dozens of suburban properties. It\u2019s not feasible for a suburban property owner to spend $50,000 to hire a heavy digger and equipment to clear the stream. Every time there\u2019s a heavy rain event, debris flows down from upstream and can block that property. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhat happens currently is that the landowner rings up the council and says, \u201CI\u2019m worried there\u2019s going to be another catastrophic flood because there\u2019s a big blockage in the stream next to my property.\u201D What happens right now is that the council says, \u201CIt\u2019s not our problem, you deal with it.\u201D, and that is one of the main problems\u2014the blockage of streams and the refusal of the Auckland Council to take responsibility for maintaining those streams. That is one of the big problems that emerged from the floods earlier this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOur committee has fixed that problem, and the bill, as it stands in the House today, says that it is the responsibility of the new water entities to maintain the entire stormwater network, including the urban streams. Property owners will still be required to exercise their responsibilities and not allow, through their own actions, for blockages to occur, and the new water entities will have all of the powers and tools needed to enforce that. But suburban property owners in our cities will no longer be able to be held responsible by a council like Auckland Council for messes and blockages in the streams that happened as a result of someone else\u2019s omission or commission further upstream. I say to the House, that is a significant improvement and advance, and I thank our colleagues on the select committee for the work they did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00223e05eafe134943d3aab39ec0a63c0800\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e05eafe134943d3aab39ec0a63c0800\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The ACT Party agrees that there is a problem with three waters infrastructure, in that, for too many decades, some councils have failed to uphold their responsibilities to care for community assets, to make provision for maintenance and renewals, and instead have wasted money on things like painting rainbow pedestrian crossings on the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, of course, New Zealanders have lost confidence in local government and their ability to manage assets. That actually goes back to 2005, when a previous Labour Government gave councils the power of general competence, which means they could do anything. Of course, what did they do? Anything but asset management well. Then we come forward\u2014we leap forward\u2014to the current Labour Government, which has given councils the instructions to focus on the four wellbeings: social, environmental, cultural, and maybe economic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, what should this Government have done? What should any Government have done? They should have said, \u201CFocus on the infrastructure needed to support growth, intensification, new urban development, and manage and maintain your assets. Invest in them in a way that doesn\u2019t lead to a whole lot of liabilities\u2014like waste water overflows onto beaches, for example.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just come back to this bill. ACT took a constructive approach. In fact, we\u2019ve taken a constructive approach to engaging with the Government and with officials and with submitters right throughout the three waters reform process going back to 2020, prior to the election, where Department of Internal Affairs officials gave David Seymour and I a briefing on what the reforms would involve. They omitted stuff like centralisation, and taking the assets without compensation. They omitted to talk about co-governance, creating these awfully complex water entities with two levels of governance, including giving 50 percent of seats on a co-governance entity to unelected, appointed iwi M\u0101ori representatives when it didn\u2019t appear there was any justification for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo Labour has behaved appallingly when it comes to this reform. A problem that New Zealanders from Cape Reinga to the Bluff and the Chatham Islands\u2014whether they were involved in farming or they lived in a small town or they lived in an urban metro like I do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224002d91dc7f441c9900089ddbcea8a20\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Come on Simon, you know more about the bill than this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef9b92dc7b924adaa4515f9cecfd3617\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014could have agreed there\u2019s a problem with three waters. Something to fix. Labour ruined that opportunity by focusing and listening to some people with some kind of misguided agenda to try to allocate decision making over water assets and infrastructure to unelected iwi M\u0101ori\u2014for some reason, without justification\u2014and to centralise the assets and confiscate them from local councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt turned out what we heard during consideration of this bill at select committee\u2014which I must acknowledge, was admirably chaired by Ingrid Leary in her role as chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. She enabled wide-ranging investigation of the bill and its implications, and I certainly want to acknowledge her for that. But what we learnt throughout the process is that this is the implementation part of the three waters reform. Labour had no idea how they were going to implement the reforms. That\u2019s what we learnt. It was like \u201CHoly, what have we done?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat did we learn? There was no plan to integrate local government planning, land use planning, and the asset management functions that the water service entities were supposed to take from local councils. There was no plan to integrate how stormwater would be managed by water service entities and land use planning. In other words, the planning that goes on to say where homes should and should not be built, where businesses should and should not be built because of natural hazards wasn\u2019t going to be integrated into the way water services entities managed stormwater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThere was no consideration of how rural water supplies, which typically supply 50 or 80 percent of their water to rural use\u2014farming, irrigation, stock water supply, washing down, hosing down\u2014all of that water and only a few residential users. How on earth would those rural water suppliers\u2019 mixeduse supplies going to be integrated into water service entities? No idea. How was the demand for infrastructure connections meant to respond to growth when these water service entities\u2019 role was set up basically to deliver clean drinking water to residential consumers, but completely ignored the fact that metros like Auckland are going to grow from 1.5 million to 2 million to 2.5 million\u2014the volume of water required to supply Auckland\u2019s growth is enormous. It can only come from places like the Waikato River or new dams. As developments proceed, they must be able to call on water connections and waste water disposal so that more houses can be built on affordable land. None of that was answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we come to the point raised by the Hon Phil Twyford\u2014a Minister, some might say, in a past role who could have been a genius for coming up with a National Policy Statement on Urban Development that encouraged more high-density development in our metro areas. So for example, where once there were four homes on residential sections, now there are 11 or 13. Like where we live\u2014where the Hon Phil Twyford and I live\u2014in Te Atat\u016B Peninsula. But what the former Minister of Housing didn\u2019t allow for was the infrastructure needed to support that growth. So where we live, in Te Atat\u016B Peninsula, it\u2019s true there\u2019s been housing intensification\u2014which is welcome. But the waste water overflows from the sewage system right by our boat ramp at Taipari Strand\u2014right next to the waka ama club, the multi-sports club, the rowing club. Why on earth was that not addressed when that former Minister did his colouring-in exercise and said, \u201CYou can build up, but we haven\u2019t taken account of or funded the infrastructure.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat was missing? What was missing? The hundreds of millions of dollars spent by building construction companies in Te Atat\u016B Peninsula alone, where I live, in the past four or five years. Not a single cent of the GST collected on that revenue has gone back to local councils to fund infrastructure. What ACT says is if we want to have growth, if we want to enable housing growth to respond to demand, then the proportion of the revenue\u2014half of the GST, which would amount to $1.5 billion a year that central government currently collects\u2014must go back to local government. Phil Twyford\u2019s speech sums up everything that\u2019s wrong with this Labour Government. Great at colouring in, great at announcements, great at press releases, but absolutely hopeless at implementation and solving the hard problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what is not resolved? Who pays for the water infrastructure is not resolved. Is it the bulk water users? Is it people like me in Auckland? When I turn on the tap, my water metre spins, and every month I get a bill? That\u2019s not very common around New Zealand. You try telling people in Wellington that they\u2019re going to get a water metre and they\u2019re going to have to pay a bill. A lot of the people who live in Wellington will probably revolt. But unless you find a way to charge people for the water they use, it\u2019s not possible to actually provide sustainable funding and financing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat is unresolved? Who says yes or no to development? Is it a co-governance entity? Is it a group of people who believe in spiritual and animist concepts such as \u201Cwater has a life force\u201D or mauri, and that that overrides the needs for communities to have water for housing growth or farming or economic development? How would we know? The bill talks about upholding Treaty settlements. Of course, ACT would support any settlement that restores property rights that have been infringed. But that does not help us understand how we provide infrastructure for growth and how these entities, when they\u2019re constituted, will actually be able to fund asset management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo this is what ACT says. Look, it\u2019s quite simple to solve. These organisations need to be voluntary. If councils are going to be co-opted, they need to get one share per 50,000 residents so at least they have control. If they need revenue, then they need to be able to raise that from water users. Alternatively, if there\u2019s major projects, they can raise it from the private sector and institutional capital and do large-scale multi - master-plan developments using private capital. All the answers are there. ACT looks forward to delivering them should we be in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00221a21a6f2e0a548b7b215064242f92df8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a21a6f2e0a548b7b215064242f92df8\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Water Services Legislation Bill. The Green Party is not supporting this bill, and I\u2019ll give our reasons in a moment, but I would like to join with others in congratulating Ingrid Leary as the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. The public often thinks that Parliament, this House, is where we argue all the time, but in select committees there is a lot of constructive work done, and, even when we oppose the bill, we try to improve it. I thank Ingrid Leary for the very good, collaborative way she chaired the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re opposing this bill because of the large level of corporatisation which is involved in the three waters reforms and the limited accountability that the entities will have. We\u2019re concerned about the loss of community voice and the limited ability of councils to influence the entities\u2019 infrastructure planning, their policy, and their pricing. Yes, there will be relationship agreements, but the entities can choose to take heed of those; they don\u2019t have to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the other major reasons for opposing the bill is that it will be the entities, not councils, that are responsible for stormwater management. Certainly, the committee, as Phil Twyford has noted, has clarified the issue around responsibilities for streams going over private land, but there\u2019s a much larger issue at play here, in terms of stormwater management. We know that with more intense weather events, we are going to get more flooding, particularly in our urban areas. One in seven people in Aotearoa live in flood-prone areas. One study has estimated that over 441,000 buildings are at risk of flooding, most of them in urban areas, and they\u2019re worth about $218 billion in value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019ve got more intense weather events and spikes in rainfall, stormwater management is critical to preventing flooding. It\u2019s closely connected with land-use planning, with the type, the scale, and the location of urban development; the provision of open space, how roading works; how drainage works on road ways; and you need to have a really strong integration between land-use planning and stormwater management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EDrinking water and waste water, the other two waters, are very different services. They are much more related to pipes, they\u2019re not as related to natural waterways, overland flow paths, wetlands, and the permeability of rain into the ground. So the arguments for managing waste water and drinking water together are strong and of course Watercare does that. But, I think, in terms of stormwater, the arguments are much stronger for leaving it with councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe bill provides very directive provisions around stormwater management. They, I think, are likely to be very challenging to implement, because councils have got to determine whether assets that they manage to use primarily for stormwater management or for things like recreation and have other benefits to the community\u2014it\u2019s the Minister, in the end, that the schedules provide has the final decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe whole process of transferring assets from councils to entities, because of all the land involved, is going to be expensive and complex. I would really encourage the Minister to consider that whole implementation and, if there are major challenges arising, to come back\u2014because, hopefully, Labour and the Greens will be in Government post-election\u2014and really look at that. Certainly, focusing on drinking water and waste water, that logically does go to the entities. But we need a partnership between local government and central government, and if stormwater stayed with local government, we think that would reinforce the partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a recent report by the Helen Clark Foundation by Kali Mercier, and she looks at the whole concept of \u201Csponge cities\u201D, which was something that was developed at large-scale in China, and it involves recognising that the more we harden our cities, the more we have concrete, asphalt, and large roofs, then the more we increase the amount of runoff after rain and the more we encourage flooding in urban areas. So in China, there\u2019s been billions of dollars spent over the last 10 years in nature-based solutions, putting more permeability back in their cities and towns, using and working with water, rather than regarding stormwater as something to defend against by piping it, putting in stop banks, dams, and the like; working with nature and creating new wetlands in the landscape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe heard at the Environment Committee, just last week, from the Secretary for the Environment, highlighting the damage we have done to wetlands. We all know that we\u2019ve destroyed 90 percent of our wetlands in Aotearoa. They are our first defence against stormwater in urban areas because they clean the water and they allow it to soak into the aquifers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s councils, which are involved in planning for recreation, planning for sports fields, ensuring that there are areas of green space that are so important for a more \u201Cspongy cities\u201D approach. It is councils that provide the land-use planning requirements about the amount of hard surfaces. If we want to move to more spongy cities, we need more porous surfaces, more of the concrete pavers which allow water to go through, rather than just our continuous asphalt. Councils direct those planning rules, not the water services entities, so it makes much more sense from a land-use perspective if stormwater stayed with the councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOur worry in the Greens is that the transfer of stormwater to the entities will see an emphasis and an increase in that traditional approach of defending people against nature using concrete, pipes, and grey infrastructure rather than green infrastructure of nature-based solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has estimated that there\u2019s been a major decline of about 30 percent in green space in Auckland alone between 1980 and 2016. That has been largely on private land. We have in the Medium Density Residential Standards a requirement that only 20 percent of sites should be outdoor space. If we\u2019re going to move to porous spongy cities, it\u2019s the councils that will drive that through land-use planning, currently now through the district and city plans but under the Natural and Built Environment Bill through their regional planning committees which would have territorial authority representatives on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo this sponge city, porous city approach is critical to climate adaptation. But it\u2019s not necessarily going to happen when you separate out the land-use planning from the entities that manage stormwater, and here\u2019s certainly been no consensus across councils that stormwater should be transferred. Both Auckland and Christchurch councils\u2014big metro councils\u2014oppose it because of the severing of this connection to place making. It\u2019s been in Christchurch where we\u2019ve seen major wetlands constructed in south-west Christchurch in the Halswell area. They have stopped flooding in the \u014Cp\u0101waho River, and they\u2019ve had major benefits for biodiversity and recreation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere is no incentive for the entity to make those big wetlands, because they haven\u2019t got the charging mechanism, other than averaging charging across the region, to actually justify the cobenefits: the recreational and biodiversity benefits, the benefits for wildlife, and the benefits for activities like walking. So the councils can do that because they can spread the cost through their rates, but the entities have got to charge for the water services, so I think I think it will be much harder for them to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the other reasons we oppose the bill is because of the considerable decision-making powers of the Minister of Local Government to amend and decide the asset allocation schedules in the restructuring. We also oppose it because of the provisions in Part 8, new Schedule 6, which allow for small mixed-use rural water supplies to be privatised. As Minister O\u2019Connor said, some 75 percent of the mixed-use rural water supplies are likely to transfer to the entities. These schemes are currently managed by councils. They provide both stock water and drinking water. They provide water for agricultural use. So if they are privatised\u2014the euphemism is \u201Cgiving it to the community\u201D. But if they are privatised, once again, it is leading to\u2014because water is used for agricultural development\u2014water assets being concentrated by agribusiness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo we don\u2019t think this is a good part of the bill, because it allows schemes which service fewer than 1,000 dwellings and where 85 percent or more of the water is used for agricultural or horticultural purposes to be transferred to another operator\u2014i.e., privatised. That\u2019s what we saw in the 1980s with schemes that the Crown had invested in through the Ministry of Works being passed to private entities and used largely for irrigation. So we\u2019ve tried to improve the bill, but the Green Party does not support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022403d858ade3b4497b46d32cacc237a95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022403d858ade3b4497b46d32cacc237a95\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019m just going to take a short call on this and try and bring things back a little bit to the basics, because I heard David Bennett talk about two absolutely contradictory things and I\u2019d be confused if I was the public looking at this. He talked about how we had the best water in the world. He also talked about leaky pipes in Wellington and he talked about how the problems in Auckland were so big that we couldn\u2019t possibly fix them, so we could never necessarily swim at our beaches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut the truth is that in Auckland we can\u2019t swim at a lot of our beaches. We have to use an app and we have to look on that app to see whether it\u2019s safe that day. If it\u2019s rained, it\u2019s not going to be safe that day. People get sick from that process. But the most serious issue we had was an issue that happened in Havelock North and people died. That issue was what sparked the original work that led to this bill and to the others that have joined it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee for all the work it did, really getting to the nuts and bolts. You\u2019ve heard the Hon Phil Twyford talk about the work that we did that was quite original and careful and very much about making sure that things happened right for Aucklanders after floods which had been so devastating and partly having been contributed to by failures of this water management done by the councils. We can\u2019t have that happen again. We need places like Mount Albert to actually be able to rely on the water systems that they\u2019ve got. It\u2019s really important, because people don\u2019t feel safe in a city where that can happen. We need pure, good water systems in our city, and that is a good thing for New Zealanders and for our Aucklanders and for the people of Mount Albert. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220c7f6cd5b4084b61987d1fadb2aef65e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c7f6cd5b4084b61987d1fadb2aef65e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A five-minute split call\u2014Barbara Kuriger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224ae205fb1ef848cd92db3957e38c84e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ae205fb1ef848cd92db3957e38c84e7\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The problem with this piece of legislation and a number of other pieces that we\u2019re doing is that they\u2019re being done in a piecemeal way. It\u2019s really short-sighted, in terms of climate adaptation and the lack of a climate adaptation bill, to be putting in piecemeal pieces of legislation that deal in water pipes and not think broader than that. I was listening to the Hon Eugenie Sage before about the sponge city approach, and I know we\u2019ve been going through in the Environment Committee, looking at other pieces of legislation\u2014as the cyclones have been happening\u2014thinking about how our stormwater does disappear. I feel like this is being pushed in a way that\u2019s not given each of our councils a chance to think about how they might do that, but aggregates them all in such a way that they\u2019re going to be pushed together\u2014thinking about pipes, thinking about dividing things up, thinking about putting things together, and not thinking about the landscape as it currently sits\u2014in terms of solving this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ELabour doesn\u2019t like to use the term \u201Cthree waters\u201D, because they know it\u2019s become so toxic, so they now call it \u201Caffordable water reforms\u201D. On this side of the House, we don\u2019t believe it\u2019s either affordable\u2014or, it\u2019s neither affordable, or it is not a real change to the reforms that were being proposed. It\u2019s still the same three waters, and Kiwis know that it\u2019s the same three waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EWe hear a lot about smaller councils missing out. When you look at a place like Taranaki, where you\u2019ve got three councils around the maunga and you\u2019ve got the Taranaki Regional Council, it\u2019s a nice, compact region. One can see how those councils have been so willing to work together\u2014already do; don\u2019t need to be pushed together; know how to do it in a way that\u2019s constructive. But when you actually look at an entity like the Waikato Regional Council, and you look everywhere from the Coromandel, which is extremely broken at the moment from severe cyclone after cyclone after cyclone\u2014and not only are their roads broken but their water system, a lot of the infrastructure, is broken. Take that all the way down through Hamilton City and down to the bottom end of the Waikato Regional Council, to a place called M\u014Dkau\u2014it\u2019s very hard to imagine how each of those councils, including the small regional councils, are even going to get any thought, I guess, around what might be needed locally in any particular given water situation, because everything is so vast and so different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we on this side of the House believe that councils should have the right to be able to aggregate in a way that they believe, if they wish to, because they know where the natural landscape fits, they know where the natural resourcing is around the communities, and they have a vision on the ground of how it all fits together\u2014not something that\u2019s arbitrarily drawn on a map by central government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThere is one thing that really worries me about this, and it talks about mixed-use rural water supplies: \u201CWater service entities must prepare in consultation with farmers and other interested parties a rural supply plan for each mixed-use rural water supply in its service area.\u201D And then it says that that entity must review the water supply plans at least every three years. Someone on the other side might explain to me how they\u2019re going to get through that, even in a three-year process, because rural supply plans are so mixed and varied. One of the things we can see is that those who are supplying houses that perhaps aren\u2019t connected with farming businesses are just as likely to pick up the pipes and go, \u201CWell, if I\u2019m going to be responsible for all of this extra bureaucracy\u201D, and they\u2019re going to actually cut the houses off. The councils will then have to go and find another way and another responsibility to supply those houses with water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo we on this side of the House are very sceptical. Again, by the time we get this bill\u2014we get the two Resource Management Act bills that were passed last week, we get the climate adaptation bill, which we don\u2019t yet have, this bill, and local government reform. We\u2019re scratching our heads as to how it will all fit together. It\u2019s not good legislation. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002201cd089c575b4e39afe23b726fe490ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201cd089c575b4e39afe23b726fe490ec\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Three waters is the life force that helps run our villages, our towns, and our cities. We need these 10 entities, and I\u2019m proud to come from Taranaki where we as councils, as iwi, are working together to ensure the future of our waters are safe and are secure for all for generations to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022236dc642f7ee426a8d13fdf174ff623d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022236dc642f7ee426a8d13fdf174ff623d\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This bill sets out more of the detail of the Government\u2019s affordable water reforms. These reforms are about protecting New Zealanders from extreme rates rises to pay for the renewal and replacement of ageing water infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EInterestingly, I was sitting here quietly, just going through the district council websites of all the members on the other side of the House there, and you\u2019d be quite interested\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022265af4773e5a4a5c8989aa60dae9166c\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Did you go through yours? They hate it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f79d8148b6245c58b7f6bfb447d2c8e\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE:\u003C/span\u003E \u2014at the amount of boil-water notices that actually exist. The member for Selwyn has just piped up, but in Hororata, on only 2 August, they had a boil-water notice, and that led to the water being offline for several days. Over in Oxford, on the No. 1 water supply, we just had an update in Waimakariri, and over there\u2014so their water supply is going to be offline for four to six weeks. Whilst the boil-water notice was precautionary before, it\u2019s now critical as the water quality from the river intake is very poor in comparison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ESo for those listening at home, have a scroll through the local council websites and have a look at the boil-water notices, and you\u2019ll probably find that most of those notices are in the same locations as those \u201CStop 3 Waters\u201D signs. So this is a good bill. It\u2019s an important bill, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9653fbe57814c7ea6e7a02340fddd82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9653fbe57814c7ea6e7a02340fddd82\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I think the technical term for the conception and passage for these water reform bills is a cluster\u2014a giant cluster. Here we are again for the fourth time in urgency, trying to ram through\u2014the Government, sorry; we\u2019re not\u2014bills that they say seek to reform the provision of water services in this country, but in actual fact will do absolutely nothing for the provision of good quality, safe water to the families and people of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EJust last week we had the passage of the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill. I\u2019m just having to outline this a bit for anyone listening because it is really complicated and convoluted. So that was the bill that established the 10 mega-entities. Bearing in mind that\u2019s an amendment bill\u2014that\u2019s amending a bill that actually passed just eight months ago which was then called the Water Services Entities Bill. But the Government got such blowback about it it\u2019s had to bring an entire amendment bill back to the Parliament to fix it\u2014or seemingly so. So here we are again with the Water Services Legislation Bill. This too is, effectively, a Supplementary Order Paper to a bill that\u2019s previously passed\u2014the Water Services Entities Bill\u2014last year that we had to debate last year, but they\u2019ve brought 200-odd pages of amendments back to the Parliament this year because they\u2019re still trying to fix it, they\u2019re still trying to make it right. I think the analogy is these guys over there trying to govern this country are trying also to build the plane while they\u2019re flying it at the same time. It\u2019s a monumental, catastrophic disaster. It is a failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThis Water Services Entities Bill that we have here\u2014sorry, the Water Services Legislation Bill; it gets confusing\u2014in front of us is about changing the status of that Water Services Entities Act that I mentioned previously and their obligations, their powers, and of course how they may amend their constitutions. But there\u2019s a whole lot of stuff in here that is just thoroughly confusing and out of touch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI think what\u2019s really interesting\u2014and to be able to talk about it tonight, because I really don\u2019t think the New Zealand public know much about it\u2014is this bill brings in the provision for pricing. This is really interesting because this bill contains provisions relating to water pricing which the Government has not talked about. It is very clear now that New Zealanders, when they\u2019ve been told by the Government that this is about saving them money, they\u2019re now having to pay for these reforms that they didn\u2019t want in the first place. But as yet we\u2019ve seen no schedule for payments. We don\u2019t actually know what the ratepayers are going to be hit with when they try to get it off the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo, too, and equally as quietly, they have tried to slip under the radar the schedule of penalties that this bill contains. It contains extensive provisions for penalties that include fines of $20,000 for breaking a sprinkler ban\u2014$20,000 for breaking a sprinkler ban!\u2014and $100,000 for digging a hole next to a stormwater asset. Now, that could include parks or sumps or stormwater drainage systems\u2014$100,000! And doesn\u2019t it beggar belief that a Government that is so soft on crime, who does not arrest serious offenders, does not throw the book at serious offenders, is going to go out and charge $20,000 for someone for watering their garden on a hot nor\u2019west day. That\u2019s quite extraordinary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EObviously, another provision in this bill is about the ownership of these water assets. Now, on this side of the House, we will maintain until our last breath that the people that own these water assets are the ratepayers of New Zealand, who have paid for them and have built them up over generations. This bill will see the usual rights and responsibilities of the ownership transferred to these 10 megaentities, these 10 unelected, anti-democratic mega-entities, and there is nobody there that can be held democratically accountable. We have a fundamental opposition to that. The fact that this is so anti-democratic that these people on these mega-entities have not been elected by the people of New Zealand to run the water assets that they have paid for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EOn that note, we will continue to oppose this bill. We are in urgency, probably for the next 48\u00A0hours, and we will continue to build the case for National\u2019s local water done well policy. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022 data-id=\u00220caae4421a224c138352db8d56c8f98c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220caae4421a224c138352db8d56c8f98c\u0022\u003ESTEPH LEWIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take a call on the Water Services Legislation Bill, and I\u2019ll tell you why. A little story: back in 2016 when we had the local body elections in Whanganui, there was a group who came in campaigning against\u2014get this\u2014spending money to upgrade our waste-water treatment plant. Guess what! They got in and then they triggered the penalty clause in the contract, which meant ratepayers in Whanganui paid more for our waste-water treatment plant upgrade than they otherwise would and should have. That is why we need to take the politicisation out of the management of our water assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you another reason why we need reform in our water service provision. In Whanganui we\u2019ve got a housing shortage; that\u2019s accepted. The council\u2019s housing plan is to do infill housing. That\u2019s fantastic\u2014great; fully support it. But I had a couple of developers walk into my office and say that their consents had been declined because\u2014get this\u2014there\u2019s no capacity in the sewerage pipes for them to build more houses there. We need water reform now. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aec3ddfa524745088e12b7842a566525\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Water Services Legislation Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000675\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002297d4c720641146f29c62306d32e4d90b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297d4c720641146f29c62306d32e4d90b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the bill. This bill is set down for committee stage immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ff3a1d9f63b43498196c957146f6d0f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ec60eb76e0749c9be04495642ac9a3e\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Water Services Entities Act 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002216808767d1f94ef09ba216a88629f196\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216808767d1f94ef09ba216a88629f196\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee for the Water Services Legislation Bill. We come first to the debate on Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 25 and Schedules 1 and 2, \u201CAmendments to Water Services Entities Act 2022\u201D. Members should note that Part 1 inserts new parts into the Water Services Entities Act 2022, and these are included in the debate on Part 1. Clause 21C inserts new Part 5A, and clause 22 replaces Part 6 with new Part 6 and inserts new Parts 7 to 13. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022944c2ec23ea24fc7b8c620a75c2cc548\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022944c2ec23ea24fc7b8c620a75c2cc548\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, thank you very much for coming down tonight to try and address the concerns that I have as a rural New Zealander and to try and contextualise what on earth it means to rural New Zealand in terms of stormwater management, especially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI try and reconcile the concerns that are offered to me in terms of stormwater management in rural New Zealand. I heard the remarks from the former speaker Eugenie Sage in the previous debate, when she raised concerns about stormwater and what that actually looks like. How on earth will that be managed, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just try and contextualise it for you if I can, and I think this warrants a genuine answer\u2014not a flippant one, but a genuine answer\u2014on what this looks like. Where I live in Northland, it is a piece of land called the Ruawai Flats. It was reclaimed back at the turn of the last century, totally drained by part of a wider scheme called the Albertlander scheme. They reclaimed it all. Now, that stormwater reality\u2014it\u2019s dead flat. To give you some kind of context, it\u2019s about 3 meters above sea level that was all drained into the Kaipara Harbour. That was done by local catchment groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ECan you please tell me, this committee, and anyone weighing in, how on earth that local asset and the management and the infrastructure that has been managed by those people for, now, the last 120\u00A0years would fall into a new entity with shared governance arrangements\u2014some appointed; some go through the democratic process\u2014to give effect to Te Mana o te Wai statements. Gracious me; I still don\u2019t know what that means when it comes to stormwater management, especially. When it comes to outcomes\u2014because I stress this point, Minister\u2014this is an example. We don\u2019t have a problem. There absolutely isn\u2019t a problem, and I think this committee deserves to know how rural stormwater, Minister, will be managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EIn previous exchanges with the former Minister of Local Government, we were talking about green overland flow, and I think that needs to be reconciled. How many tens of thousands of kilometres of local government infrastructure assets will this bill run roughshod over? And what will it mean in terms of asset management, having that asset taken off the likes of where I live and then adjudicated, financed, funded, and controlled from an entity based predominantly in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5267741ed894810ae2d6a5090becf1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5267741ed894810ae2d6a5090becf1a\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to actually participate, because I have yet to speak on this particular piece of legislation. I grabbed the legislation and I started reading, and even right from the beginning, I\u2019m slightly confused as to what this is all about, because it is rather convoluting. When I was listening to my colleague earlier, she gave a little bit of a history, which sort of seems like there\u2019s a massive confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EGoing to Part 1, in replacement section 161(1)(ia), inserted by clause 4(2)(h), it talks about how that section \u201Cprovides that the annual reports of water services entities must contain information on actions they have taken to give effect to te Tiriti o Waitangi/the Treaty of Waitangi with reference to each of the other matters listed in this section\u201D. I\u2019m trying to understand\u2014if the Minister could explain to me or to this committee\u2014how that helps or impacts on the services that this water entity will potentially have for customers in water quality and water services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002223406c7589c04a3389fcb3e1881cd6c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223406c7589c04a3389fcb3e1881cd6c6\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to follow up\u2014it\u2019s page 66; clauses 234 to 236, around the purpose. We\u2019ve got the \u201CPurpose of the rural supply plan\u201D, then the \u201CContents of the rural supply plan\u201D, and then \u201CEngagement on rural supply plans\u201D. I brought up in my speech in the second reading the multiple different ways that rural water is supplied: not just for animals but also for those people who work on farms and people who, maybe, live near to farms. When you start having to define the geographic area setting out how the water services entity will operate the supply with the users of the supply: all of the arrangements, the detail around the ongoing maintenance, committee and other arrangements for making decisions, roles and responsibilities\u2014Minister, I know that you often say that you\u2019ve been out engaging with all the rural communities. I wonder if you can help us by understanding the potential for lots of water supplies to be cut off in terms of those people who don\u2019t want to engage with what seems to be a hugely bureaucratic process, and those houses will be left to councils to then supply water to, because it just becomes too complicated and too hard, and another piece of bureaucracy that\u2019s imposed on rural people. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa4e17fdc6574e1eb931b83362ea8c2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa4e17fdc6574e1eb931b83362ea8c2e\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Barbara Kuriger for her question, and Mark Cameron. I\u2019ll go through those as best I can. In regards to rural water supplies: if the existing supply already has a relationship with the council\u2014so it could be that they have a committee that is made up of the water users and it is also made up of the council\u2014then that relationship can continue. But, with the entity, those users will be able to continue to have the opportunity to have a joint operational committee. They\u2019ll also have a choice: they can withdraw themselves from coverage of this bill and the reforms if they wish; however, of course, they wouldn\u2019t get the benefit of the scale of being included in those. We\u2019ve worked really constructively with water users. There\u2019s been a really targeted, constructive approach down in the Clutha area, led by the council down there. We\u2019ve taken on board their concerns, and a lot of that is being reflected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to rural drainage, that\u2019s not in scope of these reforms\u2014councils will continue to be accountable for rural flood- and stormwater arrangements. Water services entities will be required to collaborate and support councils as agreed. In regards to the specific example, I\u2019m unfamiliar with that. If they have an existing relationship with the local council, then that opportunity will continue with the water services entity. If they are completely removed from council provision and they are solely rural supply, then they won\u2019t be covered by these reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022510c318d203b4deebc692137057d667e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022510c318d203b4deebc692137057d667e\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on this Water Services Legislation Bill, which is not one we support. I want to ask the Minister about clause 5, around definitions in particular\u2014clause 5(2)\u2014\u201CIn section 6, definition of stormwater network, after paragraph (b), insert: (c) does not include a transport stormwater system\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENow, does that mean that stormwater coming off the road is a stormwater transport system? Is that the meaning of that particular clause? I would have thought that\u2019s the major carrier of the stormwater in our transport networks, actually\u2014the roads and carparks. We\u2019ve heard that it\u2019s not in the rural area, so that kind of makes sense. But, in an urban area, how do you define what\u2019s a transport water system\u2014drainage system, stormwater system\u2014and what\u2019s stormwater? The water that comes off the roof of a house or off buildings would, I would assume, be the only other stormwater. So I would be quite interested in that definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI know that, turning back to rural water\u2014in fact, I\u2019ll come back to that later. I\u2019m interested in that stormwater one. I think there\u2019s a massive issue with that in New Zealand, because we actually haven\u2019t designed our roads from scratch in New Zealand; we haven\u2019t had a clean sheet of paper and started putting our roads out and said we\u2019re going to build them in such a way as to manage our stormwater in the most effective manner. They\u2019ve, essentially, evolved over time, and so we\u2019ve ended up with an imperfect system. I think that would be a really good question. If we could have that answer, we would really appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba294c5282234559a422fabeae4f0801\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba294c5282234559a422fabeae4f0801\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Staying with stormwater, in the bill, water services entities must have a comprehensive stormwater strategy. They\u2019ve got to have a relationship with the relevant local authorities. And the bill also\u2014because of the changes the committee made\u2014has ensured that the water services entities have \u201Cprimary responsibility for managing and maintaining watercourses that have a stormwater \u2026 function\u201D, including on private land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn a city like \u014Ctautahi Christchurch, the city council has done a lot of work on the \u014Ct\u0101karo and \u014Cp\u0101waho\u2014Avon and Heathcote\u2014rivers, in terms of riparian planting, improving the naturalness of the rivers, putting in place rock to create riffles so that there\u2019s better habitat for fish. All of that work has been done to enhance the amenity of the river, its natural functioning, but the rivers also carry quite significant volumes of stormwater. In the bill, it also provides that the entities can only charge properties for stormwater services where they are serviced by or within 100 metres of a stormwater network or in a particular geographic zone that receives benefits from that network.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhen a territorial authority is doing work to improve the functioning of a river or stream, where it\u2019s doing riparian management and planting to safeguard water quality, to provide for urban amenity, how is the water services entity going to interact with the council? How is it going to charge for that work, because the council can charge for it under a number of its functions. But, if it\u2019s not primarily concerned with the conveyance of stormwater, how is the entity going to recoup any costs involved, and how are we going to ensure that there is a prospect of water-sensitive urban design and spongy cities being implemented by these entities when they are not associated with the land-use planning that is required to ensure that we move more towards those nature-based solutions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d576947eb90145df91996f8032fe976b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d576947eb90145df91996f8032fe976b\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In regards to Melissa Lee\u2019s questions relating to the Treaty of Waitangi clause, the section sets out what the Crown will do to give effect to the Treaty of Waitangi obligations. These sections are quite common in legislation, and we believe it is consistent with previous approaches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to Stuart Smith\u2019s question, the bill provides that stormwater networks and transport corridors are managed separately. Roads, while they are designed to channel water away, are managed separately to the underlying stormwater network.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAnd to the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s question, I\u2019ve sought advice on that, given its technical nature, but I\u2019ll get back to you when I receive it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccb94af4b81142bfba58913e56641104\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccb94af4b81142bfba58913e56641104\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. Thank you, Minister McAnulty, for making yourself available to come to the committee tonight to answer questions about another three waters bill, this Water Services Legislation Bill, which is the third of four bills, I think, Minister, which I guess gives people watching at home or listening at home to this debate tonight some inkling of the complexity of the reform agenda that this Government embarked on, with conditional support from the ACT Party for the initial proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut, Minister, it\u2019s quite clear that, at some point along the way, between defining the problem, there are too many disaggregated water supplies around New Zealand that don\u2019t have the economies of scale, the ratings base, or the income base to fund and finance the maintenance of existing networks or to provide for growth\u2014which, if you\u2019re in an existing town or city, often requires replacing large parts of network infrastructure to upgrade it to allow for additional housing connections or business connections. Or, if you\u2019re developing in greenfield areas near existing towns and cities, it requires building new network infrastructure, at what can be quite a high cost, for that cost, then, to be either attributed back to the first movers\u2014the people who come along to do a subdivision. And then the council says, \u201CWell, we\u2019ve had to build new network infrastructure.\u201D\u2014drinking water, waste water, stormwater, for example. In the case of Auckland Council, they\u2019ve laid down a wero\u2014a challenge\u2014to developers at Drury South: if you wish to build, it\u2019s $85,000 in development contributions before you build. Minister, all of these problems are yet to be solved by this legislation, although they were extensively canvassed during the Finance and Expenditure Committee hearing on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut there is a problem, Minister, that\u2019s been introduced in this legislation that didn\u2019t exist before the reform process started, and that is a concept of iwi M\u0101ori having rights and interests in three waters infrastructure. It was a very surprising introduction\u2014particularly for people involved in asset management and engineering and maintenance and clearing drains and doing CCTV and having to repair pipes\u2014that in this reform package, Minister, in amended section 5(2), inserted by clause 4, service providers will have to demonstrate how they\u2019ve taken action to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi - the Treaty of Waitangi. When you\u2019re designing an urban stormwater or waste-water network, or you\u2019re designing a new subdivision and you\u2019re working out how much water you\u2019re going to need for all the people who might live there, it would be outside the normal scope of work for a designer or an asset owner or an asset manager to be thinking, \u201CHow do I give effect to a treaty between the Crown and 500 or so iwi and hap\u016B representatives, a treaty signed in 1840?\u201D That\u2019s not what land developers and asset managers usually concern themselves with, because it is not their business to be concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I just want to ask: why is it that this bill requires asset owners, the water services entities, to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi - the Treaty of Waitangi? In particular, I asked the Minister of Local Government, the former Minister\u2014the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, who\u2019s joined us here in the committee this evening; good evening, Minister\u2014\u201CDoes the Minister Believe that M\u0101ori have rights and interests in Three Waters assets built after 1840, and if so, why?\u201D That is in written question No. 7396 (2022), and the Minister responded to the written question: \u201CTo my knowledge M\u0101ori have not expressed rights and interests in three waters assets over and above those [of] ratepayers within their respective communities of interest.\u201D\u2014that is, assets built after 1840, after the Treaty between the Crown and 500 or so iwi and hap\u016B representatives was signed and before any three waters infrastructure was built in New Zealand. So, Minister, could you please explain why on earth these three waters entities have to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u002252203481c0aa46739b4ca2e57b967beb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252203481c0aa46739b4ca2e57b967beb\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just a quick question to the Minister, appreciating that this bill\u2019s reason for being, really, is to establish and empower the water services entities by setting out their functions and powers and obligations. I just was wondering if the Minister could talk us through clause 9, inserting new section 18(3)(a), where it says that a water services entity \u201Cmay establish, own (in whole or in part), or operate a subsidiary only if the subsidiary complies with the requirements specified in Schedule 5;\u201D\u2014and so on and so forth. But, Minister, could you please outline to the committee\u2014and, indeed, councils around Canterbury\u2014how that relates to or applies to the current council controlled organisations (CCOs) that many of these councils own. For example, in Ashburton, Ashburton Contracting Limited; or in Selwyn, it\u2019s called CORDE. Most councils are of the belief that the water assets within their CCOs will also be claimed by these entities. So, just with regard to amended section 18, could the Minister please outline how they do actually relate to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4abfd43b2c44e0289ee472388c75317\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4abfd43b2c44e0289ee472388c75317\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Just in response to that, it\u2019s been made very clear for quite some time, and it\u2019s very clear in the bill, that the only council-controlled organisations (CCOs) that would be brought into the water reforms are Wellington Water and in Auckland; all others will not be consumed by this reform. We made that change as a result of listening to councils some months ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regard to Eugenie Sage\u2019s question, I thank you for it, but if you forgive me, I\u2019m going to read, because it goes into some detail and I want to address your question. There are some cities such as Christchurch\u2014which the member has pointed out\u2014that does have a large and complex river system running through it, and there the entities and the councils will have to work together incredibly closely. As we know, cities like Christchurch aren\u2019t immune from severe weather events and climate change, and the entities will bring significant benefit to addressing that with the cheaper cost and cheaper ability to borrow than it would have if it were on its own, and also greater technical expertise, recognising, though, that Christchurch does have its own CCO and they do have a high level of expertise down there. We heard the council\u2019s concerns and removed that from the original proposals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe stormwater management plans require an entity to specify a geographic zone that benefits from stormwater services. These geographic zones provide the basis for charging for stormwater services, and, of course, the relationship agreement provides a structure in which to do this. If I haven\u2019t covered everything, feel free to jump up again and I\u2019ll look into it further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022febbcb80f6264bdc90464820f3d0e463\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022febbcb80f6264bdc90464820f3d0e463\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I just have to point out that, no, you haven\u2019t covered everything, because my question was very specific: why is it that water services entities need to take actions to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi when the councils that built wastewater treatment plants, dams for drinking water, water supply networks for new subdivisions and for business, which built stormwater detention ponds alongside new subdivisions or in urban areas to help mitigate the effect of pollutants entering the receiving environment\u2014how come, Minister, the water services entities, which will take all of those assets off councils, suddenly have to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi? None of the assets were built before the Treaty was signed and none of the assets, as far as I\u2019m aware\u2014and he may wish to correct me\u2014are subject to Treaty settlement claims, or have been claimed, or have been settled, have been transacted to an iwi. How is it, Minister, that this Government can justify including new section 5(h), inserted by clause 4(2)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd, Minister, while you\u2019re considering that, would you also please tell the committee, for those watching or listening at home, what are the implications of requiring water services entities to give effect to Te Mana o te Wai? For those watching or listening to this debate, they might ask: what is Te Mana o te Wai? Well, there is a definition referred to in replacement section 6, inserted by clause 5(2A) in Supplementary Order Paper 418, under \u201CInterpretation\u201D, which says that \u201CTe Mana o te Wai\u2014(a) has the meaning set out in the national planning framework made by Order in Council \u2026 of the Natural and Built Environment Act 2022;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, just to summarise for those listening or watching, Te Mana o te Wai sets out that water has a spiritual dimension, that water comes from the heavens and embodies the mauri or life force of a deity, and then when it lands on planet Earth, it returns to another deity: the earth. And what Te Mana o te Wai means, in terms of the Resource Management Act or the Natural and Built Environment Act or the national policy statement for fresh water, all of which have a relationship to the definition in this bill\u2014what it requires is for decision makers to take account of how to give effect to Te Mana o te Wai. That means to take account of the cultural and spiritual values of one group in New Zealand\u2019s community who have the right to express their cultural values and to believe whatever they want to about the origins of water, its life force, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut how on earth is a decision maker, trying to decide how to build infrastructure, how to design the discharge from a wastewater treatment plant to meet ecological values, freshwater values, swimming values, wading values, whatever they are\u2014how are they supposed to take account of one culture\u2019s understanding of the life force of water when making decisions about what kind of filter to use, whether we need to use a filter that treats it, essentially, to achieve some kind of life force standard or whether a filtration system simply to protect the ecology, the creatures that live in the water, and people who might want to swim in it is adequate? Because, if you look at the challenges facing New Zealand infrastructure operators, it\u2019s quite clear that the life force standard probably comes in at 100 percent premium, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, would you please provide some justification for why water infrastructure operators need to give effect to the Treaty of Waitangi and how on earth they\u2019re supposed to give effect to Te Mana o te Wai, the statements provided by iwi and hap\u016B, if they\u2019re asking for a standard of water treatment which meets their cultural needs but which far exceeds the actual biophysical needs of communities or receiving waters. Because it it\u2019s not clear how decision makers are supposed to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd1cf68dfa504a6c9ff8d7f2eea39229\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd1cf68dfa504a6c9ff8d7f2eea39229\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E While the obligations to fulfil Treaty settlements are in scope of this bill, giving effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi or giving effect to Te Mana o te Wai are not in scope of this bill. The references in this bill are referring to the Water Services Entities Bill and the Water Services Act, which was passed last year and the year before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0e4068bcec2478aa193d8c3d0fe99b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0e4068bcec2478aa193d8c3d0fe99b3\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to start off by saying thank you to the Minister for Local Government, who attempted to answer my question\u2014I think, perhaps, he got my question confused with Simon Court\u2019s question because it relates to the same clause, 4(2)(h). The question I was actually asking was that it says, \u201Cin section 161(1)(ia), that provides that the annual reports of water services entities must contain information on actions they have taken to give effect to te Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D\u2014so I\u2019m not questioning the reason why they actually engage with that. What I\u2019m actually asking is: what does the annual report, in terms of the way that they\u2019ve engaged re the Treaty, relate back to the services of the water entity? And does that actually improve it, or do we actually get better or cleaner water, or whatever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAnd the other\u2014you know, the committee stage is supposed to be short questions, so I\u2019ll try and be very, very short. I found my colleague Stuart Smith\u2019s question in relation to clause 5(2)(c), where it talks about the \u201Cstormwater network\u201D and says it \u201Cdoes not include a transport stormwater system\u201D\u2014I\u2019m really curious to find out why that is. I know that the Minister actually addressed Stuart\u2019s question, saying that it is actually a different system; it\u2019s dealt with in a different way. I\u2019m not a geologist, but in Auckland we\u2019ve actually had some sinkholes on the roads, where we\u2019ve had massive gaps and there was water running everywhere. Does that mean that it addresses the concerns of the citizens when they actually look at roads\u2014which has impacts, because the waterways actually run underneath the roads? Are we actually putting our citizens at risk of more sinkholes appearing under our road networks? I think these are things that maybe, perhaps, the Minister has actually had the officials explain that we need to look at\u2014or does he actually think that it\u2019s nobody\u2019s business and it\u2019s actually safe and, you know, we don\u2019t need to do anything about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbe4b48c9021413aad95534644f05335\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbe4b48c9021413aad95534644f05335\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to Melissa Lee for the clarification. I apologise for getting the wrong end of the stick. The annual report summarises the operations of the entity, and given that the entities are required, as has been mentioned, to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, it\u2019s an appropriate requirement for them to outline how they are doing that. It doesn\u2019t need to be too technical. Just as an example, they could simply outline how they are engaging with M\u0101ori. Given that the regional representative groups will be made up of mana whenua, I think that will be quite a straightforward requirement for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022891cd35d8233473086597d402048791a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022891cd35d8233473086597d402048791a\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you, Minister, for those answers. But I go back to the point that my colleague Melissa Lee just raised, again, about the transport systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENow, I heard the Minister\u2019s answer that there would be a separate entity for transport corridors and to manage the stormwater from those rather than the other stormwater\u2014the normal stormwater. But I would wager that there wouldn\u2019t be many road corridors where the stormwater system is not linked to the transport corridor\u2019s stormwater. So how is that interface handled? I know we have an engineer in the room\u2014perhaps Simon Court might like to comment on this later on\u2014but you would have to think that one of those entities will carry the water of the other, and therefore they will have to have a larger pipe than they would have needed otherwise. So who pays for the larger pipe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBecause I know\u2014from buying pipe in the past\u2014the bigger the pipe, the more expensive it is. I know, when I chaired a community irrigation company, we had to carefully assess how many hectares were going to be irrigated and how much volume of water we wanted, because nobody wanted to pay for a bigger pipe than was necessary. We\u2019re not necessarily talking about the pipe at the gate of a person\u2019s property; we\u2019re talking about the pipe delivering the water to the gateway all the way back to the source.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut, in the case of stormwater, it\u2019s the other way. You\u2019ve got to make sure that you\u2019re able to carry all the water. The pipe will get bigger as it gets towards the source\u2014but I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll hear from our resident engineer if I\u2019ve got that right. I think I can just see how the two entities are going to interact about who pays for what, where the ownership ceases and starts for that network, who\u2019s going to cover the maintenance costs. I would assume bigger pipes actually may be cheaper to deal with, because you might be able to get into them more easily than the smaller pipes. So all those things come into play. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThen, of course, the town stormwater is likely to want to cross a road corridor. What happens when that occurs? It just seems like this has probably not been thought out, I would imagine\u2014given the way the bill looks, it clearly hasn\u2019t, and given the time that has been allowed for the legislation to go under the scrutiny of select committees and Parliament rushing it through under urgency. Surely there will be mistakes, but perhaps the Minister can give the committee, and those that are listening and watching, comfort that this bill isn\u2019t going to be a rod for New Zealand\u2019s collective back in all of these boundary issues that will come from the roading stormwater entity and the conventional stormwater entity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWhat role will local councils and local communities have in the road transport corridor stormwater entities? Will that have a separate chief executive on a six-figure salary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beb1f57238cb40c8ac2ee7400bf217c3\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Six-figure? That sounds like it\u2019s discounted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022946881ceaa72424b803fa295b2b13bfc\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it goes all the way up till it ticks over to a seventh figure, but how close it gets to the seventh figure I\u2019m not sure. Maybe it is seven figures. Or perhaps the Minister could let us know what the salary ranges are, and do the transport corridor CEOs have a higher salary than the normal conventional stormwater entities? I\u2019d really like to hear those answers. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002243daff70f5914f8aa842a218a54863e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243daff70f5914f8aa842a218a54863e7\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E There won\u2019t be separate stormwater entities. What I was pointing out earlier was that the transport corridor managers will continue to manage the roading stormwater systems\u2014say, as an example, Waka Kotahi\u2014and the interface between those will be addressed by the relationship agreement which is required by this bill. That relationship agreement could well be with NZTA, or indeed the council if it was a local road that fell into the scope of this bill. That would address the concerns that he raised in his example. But we\u2019re not proposing that there be a separate entity to deal with stormwater and then a separate one again to deal with stormwater off roads. That\u2019s not what\u2019s being proposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9cc9bb196e1424c9106753db39eed42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9cc9bb196e1424c9106753db39eed42\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just a question to the Minister\u2014section 13, pages 34 and 35, and in particular (o)\u2014it says this is one of the functions of the water service entities: \u201Cto mitigate the effects of climate change and natural hazards, and support and enable climate change adaptation\u201D. The question to the Minister is: in the absence of a climate adaptation bill, it seems like a very big ask for a water entity. And I\u2019m still trying to get my head around how all of these particular bills actually fit together. Could the Minister, please, explain just how much is dependent on the water entity and how much will be shared around perhaps climate adaptation and some of the other resource management bills that we have just put into play in the House? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002295a7c60b14424d309fffd0d492bf8948\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295a7c60b14424d309fffd0d492bf8948\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. That was actually a very useful question from Barbara Kuriger. But, Minister, before you get around to answering that, can we just come back to the transport stormwater system. The road corridor, whether it\u2019s in a city or on a State highway, is usually impervious from boundary to boundary. It\u2019s concrete footpaths or asphalt roads, and that very large surface area contributes a lot of stormwater to the urban stormwater system\u2014much, much more than would typically be contributed even by roofs off residential buildings. So, up until this point in time, with local councils being the road controlling authority and owning the stormwater system, they\u2019ve been able to balance internally the cost of managing that stormwater through stormwater treatment ponds or collection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhere I live in Te Atat\u016B Peninsula, in fact, there\u2019s a whole series of wetlands being constructed as part of new subdivisions, which take stormwater off the road network as well as the residential roofs and driveways and filter it and treat it through a series of ponds. In fact, it\u2019s already filtered and treated to such a high standard that we have all kinds of native ducks, dabchicks, and other rare and threatened species that have decided that the stormwater quality in Auckland\u2019s Te Atat\u016B Peninsula is so good in the Harbourview Orangihina Park that they\u2019ve decided to call it home, at least on a temporary basis during nesting season.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut all of that stormwater that comes off roofs or roads has to, in the future under this model, be attributed to one entity or the other. Now, if it\u2019s coming off roofs, then we could assume that maybe it\u2019s local councils or residents that have responsibility for paying for the collection, treatment, and final discharge of stormwater. But, if it\u2019s coming off roads, then we would have to assume that the road controlling authority, which would still be local councils, would need to make some kind of provision for paying for the treatment of all the stormwater off their local road network. So, Minister, what do you expect relationship agreements to include so that that cost could be evenly attributed? I\u2019m pretty sure that councils and their ratepayers won\u2019t want to have to pay for a whole lot of stormwater that isn\u2019t theirs. But, again, if councils are still the road controlling authority, will they still be paying for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, all of this is not determined, Minister. While you, in your role as local government Minister, and previous Ministers have claimed that there\u2019ll be significant reductions in the cost of three waters for current and future ratepayers, actually, if we think about the volume of water that councils will continue to discharge to the stormwater networks operated by water services entities, Minister, isn\u2019t it likely that councils\u2014and, therefore, ratepayers\u2014will continue to pay a significant amount of money for stormwater in addition to what they pay water services entities? And I\u2019m assuming that, at some point in the future, they\u2019re going to get separate bills; one that might say \u201CWater Services Entity A\u201D and another \u201CWater Services Entity B\u201D\u2014or \u201CWater Services Entity 10\u201D, or however many eventually get stood up. So, Minister, how can you be confident, given it\u2019s not clear who\u2019s going to pay for stormwater and whether it comes off a road or whether it comes off a residential property, or whether it comes off council parks and reserves, how this is going to be allocated? And what, if any, savings can ratepayers expect from the stormwater service component of their rates that they currently pay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022a43ebf5bb76e4b4faccba4abe2e55277\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a43ebf5bb76e4b4faccba4abe2e55277\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I just wanted to ask around this new section 5(kb), in clause 4(2), which says that \u201Cagreements, arrangements, or understandings that local authorities have entered with mana whenua relating to water services transfer to water services entities:\u201D, and I just wanted to ask: did the Minister take any advice on the use of the words \u201Cmana whenua\u201D in this bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe reason I ask that is just because the Waitangi Tribunal, in the Wai 64 tribunal report Rekohu: A Report on Moriori and Ngati Mutunga Claims in the Chatham Islands, wrote that \u201CMana is inherent in persons, not land, and \u2018mana whenua\u2019 appears to be a modern thought that does violence to traditional ethics. It has prejudiced all on the islands and prejudices Maori generally.\u201D The tribunal went on to say, \u201Cwe think the statutory reference to mana whenua is contrary to the principles of the Treaty, being out of kilter with cultural ethics, and is prejudicial to all claimants as a result.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIt went on to say that \u201CThe term \u2018mana whenua\u2019 appears to have come from a nineteenth-century Maori endeavour to conceptualise Maori authority in terms of the English legal concepts of imperium and dominium. It links mana or authority with ownership of the whenua (soil). But the linking of mana with land does not fit comfortably with Maori concepts. Recent research tends to agree that the term \u2018mana whenua\u2019 itself does not appear in the early records about customary rights to land. The Crown\u2019s interim closing submission in this claim drew usefully on Grant Phillipson\u2019s collection of evidence from missionaries and others familiar with Maori language and culture, originally collected in the 1860s and published in the Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, as well as some unpublished material. These opinions confirm that the term \u2018mana\u2019 was personal and was used in regard to the influence or authority of chiefs. Other opinions compiled in the Appendix consider that mana whenua was a nineteenth-century invention. Crown counsel likewise challenged\u2014we think correctly\u2014its use to describe a general authority of a particular group over any area of land.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022156fbc1c37714e6a99615ea13df37830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022156fbc1c37714e6a99615ea13df37830\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you very much. The definition of \u201Cmana whenua\u201D was debated in the Water Services Entities Act extensively last year, and this bill refers to the definition that had already been passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regard to Mr Court\u2019s questions, essentially, the bill sets out consistent standards and the tools for entities and partners to create bespoke working arrangements for each particular area. I think that\u2019s the appropriate approach. Of course, every area will be different, but we want it to be consistently applied. But the bill also makes it very clear that, whilst stormwater systems are complex, the entities will continue to have responsibility for discharge and the majority of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAnd finally, to Barbara Kuriger\u2019s question around the impacts of climate change, we\u2019ve seen the impact recently that severe weather has had on stormwater, waste water, and drinking water systems. Whilst we are bringing in these reforms, we felt it was only appropriate that we require the entities to take into account climate change, and give them the objective to mitigate against climate change. That, of course, was an obligation that was provided to the entities when this was debated in 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022771f80b673d746f0a1de96838513b0bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022771f80b673d746f0a1de96838513b0bf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019ll just note\u2014I intend to leave the Chair\u2014that although this is wide-ranging, the questions have been relatively narrow and they have actually been quite repetitive to date. That will be taken into account when we resume tomorrow. It is now time to leave the Chair. The House will be resumed at 9 a.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20230822895aade29c0d4e618ebb48b0013f26a1000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbf9dc482c254ea585c3fef605f96241\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002294aad99d7d75464586b6aa12e01ec33c\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 23 August 2023)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022980b26c17f87430d816c0ada85264e0a\u0022\u003EWater Services Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022adb74ecde6524023800362c7ebcf7e88\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f0b5e8041a343cd83867de66bc46214\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Water Services Entities Act 2022 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0b3fdccaf0e4446a6be657a53a9c4a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0b3fdccaf0e4446a6be657a53a9c4a9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, good morning. The House is resumed in committee. We are considering Part 1 of the Water Services Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb9a9e85b08a4b1a886e4edea0921482\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb9a9e85b08a4b1a886e4edea0921482\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s great to be in the Chamber at 9 o\u2019clock in the morning, and to everyone out there who\u2019s watching Parliament TV this morning, good morning\u2014what a fantastic day it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e5940cd3134c418db12c1355871e55\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: This is what happens when the Government can\u2019t get their stuff together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fe6cfddf1104ebd8e33e9f03ce00372\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. I was just reading what we\u2019re speaking about, the Water Services Legislation Bill. I was saying to the Minister in the chair on the way in that I did thank him very much for the answers he gave us yesterday, and I\u2019m looking forward to those sorts of fulsome answers again today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut I would like to, as the Minister suggested, get local on it and I\u2019m actually going to get personal on it. I\u2019m in a small water scheme, a private water scheme, and I note under clause 5(4)(a) and (b), where it talks about the board and whether it\u2019s one or more people, and that the water scheme would have to have a board. My first question is around those people on that board. Are they considered directors as in a directors under the Companies Act, and are they subject to those sorts of rights and obligations that would be required under the Companies Act? That\u2019s quite an important thing to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI think, in many cases, those small schemes would have a variety of different people thrown into those roles who aren\u2019t necessarily experienced in the world of governance and may well not even be au fait with the rights and obligations under the Companies Act for a director, which are quite serious if things aren\u2019t handled correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d be grateful if the Minister could give us a bit of an idea of what those boards would look like, because there\u2019d be quite a difference between one of those entities and one which is running a council\u2019s water assets, particularly with these other governance structures. So that would be really helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe second part I would like to understand about those entities is whether they have to have a corporatised structure underneath them to operate those assets and all the reporting requirements that are outlined in this bill. And are those reporting requirements under this legislation in any way staged for different sizes of entities, if it is one or more individuals who are users of the service? So does that mean that a farm property with a cottage on it, two houses on it, serviced off one bore\u2014or a creek or whatever that\u2019s treated\u2014is considered to be one of these entities under this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00227b79848f385b43a8817db47309546d23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b79848f385b43a8817db47309546d23\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the question. To some degree, we covered this off last night when I was answering the questions from Barbara Kuriger, but I\u2019ll run through it again. So we have, I guess, three scenarios. One, which is an entirely private rural scheme that doesn\u2019t currently have a relationship with a council\u2014they\u2019re not impacted by these reforms and this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThen you\u2019ve got a rural scheme which does currently have a relationship with the council. In most instances, they have a committee that is made up of people on council and the users. What is proposed is that that relationship would remain; it would just be with the entities, not with the council. So any operational decisions and input that users have should be able to be maintained\u2014that was one thing that came out of the process that we went through with the Department of Internal Affairs; went through with talking with the rural users down there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EKeeping in mind that rural users will also have, in those circumstances, the option of pulling out altogether and not being covered by this. In some instances, that may be best for them. But that does come with the risk of them incurring all costs of maintenance and upgrading into the future. What we found from the engagement with water users in the Clutha area was that once that was spelt out\u2014that their level of input would be maintained but the cost and future liability of maintaining an upgrading would be shared across the entity, therefore significantly reducing the cost to those users\u2014the feedback we got was that on the whole, they would be willing to continue with what\u2019s being proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe other aspect of it, which isn\u2019t covered but I think would be of use to the member, is those mixed-use rural schemes\u2014that it might be a situation where one landowner supplies water to surrounding neighbours. That could be used for the purposes of stock or it could be used for the purposes of drinking water. Again, that\u2019s not covered in this, but we want to be as practical as possible in that. So, essentially, what happens is that it comes down to the regulations that are set by Taumata Arowai, because of course we want to make sure that all drinking water is safe\u2014but as practical as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo, in most instances, all that will be required is that at the point of delivery on the side of the house, they have a UV filter rather than full treatment at the source. In doing that, it would allow that that water that\u2019s being used for stock won\u2019t have to be unnecessarily treated. In some instances, though, it might be that the vast majority of the water being delivered is for drinking water, with some for stock. It might be more cost-effective of them to treat at source but that\u2019s up to them\u2014whatever is the most practical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ECertainly where it\u2019s mixed-use and the majority of the water is going to be used for stock purposes and not drinking, it would just make sense to have a UV filter. So there\u2019s a few scenarios there, but in terms of relevancy to the bill and the example that the member gave, nothing should change. It\u2019s just that they\u2019re dealing with the entities rather than the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd599006e4c3402ea1ecfe4ba082c1df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd599006e4c3402ea1ecfe4ba082c1df\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for that answer, although I didn\u2019t quite understand where the committee members, if it\u2019s a relationship with a council\u2014are they directors or not directors under the Companies Act? That\u2019s the first thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe second thing is in the case where a water entity has no relationship in itself with the council but those householders have a sewerage service supplied by the council, so there is one of the three waters relationships with the council but not the drinking-water one or the stormwater one. How does that work under this bill? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022e37e323949fd4d6eb53289e468ed1b93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e37e323949fd4d6eb53289e468ed1b93\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much\u2014very good point. That was the first note I wrote down and it was the first one I missed, so I\u2019ll get to that straight away. No, they won\u2019t be considered directors, because, of course, the entities remain publicly owned, but what it will be is exactly the same as they\u2019ve got now. It\u2019s an opportunity for those users to have a significant level of influence in terms of the decisions that are made on that use scheme, but they won\u2019t be considered directors and they won\u2019t therefore have the obligations and responsibilities that fall on directors. That will still sit with the entities because they\u2019re publicly owned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn the example the member gave where perhaps one of the three waters might be supplied by the council, I\u2019m not aware of an instance where waste water, for example, in a rural area has a committee like they would do with drinking water. If waste water is provided by the council now, I don\u2019t think they would have a committee on that\u2014they might. If they do, it\u2019d be the same answer. If they don\u2019t, then it just carries on as it would do now except it\u2019d be the entities providing that service, not the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022036c4e0357ec405ca1775075643fe124\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022036c4e0357ec405ca1775075643fe124\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, can we go back to your previous answer to Stuart Smith, when you were talking about mixed use for rural supply. I\u2019m trying to get some clarity, and maybe you can double down on it and give that clarity, because I\u2019m trying to ascertain what it would look like if you were a farmer, as you alluded to\u2014that mixed supply model when you might actually have a farmer who was predominantly supplying, who stopped the water, but then there were half a dozen homes on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EIn that instance, would there need to be some sort of standard set for the drinking-water element of that mixed supply model, and what was the number, given that the ACT Party had asked for a 30 endpoint user exemption\u2014why wouldn\u2019t you actually look at that? Because, genuinely speaking, there are often many instances where there is more than one source of supply on a private property that feeds into several abodes or several homes. Arguably, that person is a provider and it would be incumbent upon them\u2014it\u2019s my understanding of this legislation\u2014to then make sure that the water was of a safe drinking standard, assuming it was an artesian water source, or something to that effect. What is the potential outcome, if I\u2019m interpreting this piece of legislation correctly, that, in more than one instance, you can potentially see the cessation of that supply, based on the fiscal constraints and obligations of that now deemed provider? Can you give some clarity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00222b71692bd9b24d98bcab553e0b2b5ee2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b71692bd9b24d98bcab553e0b2b5ee2\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. Like I explained to Mr Smith, this actually isn\u2019t in this bill. I just provided that for his understanding in terms of the context of rural supply, but this particular matter was debated in the Water Services Bill in 2021. I\u2019m happy to address it, but I\u2019ll probably leave it there at that point, given it\u2019s not proposed in this bill. It is required of the provider to meet minimum standards, through Taumata Arowai. That has long been in place; everybody agrees that if you\u2019re receiving water it needs to be of a safe standard. However, the changes that I outlined to Mr Smith were that in working with farmers, we clarified to them that it\u2019s likely that all that will be required at the point of receipt is that they have a UV filter to meet the standards, rather than imposing undue requirements on the provider, which will inevitably, likely, lead to people just saying, \u201CWell, I\u2019m not going to supply my neighbours.\u201D, and pull out. We don\u2019t want that. We want it to be as practical as possible, and that\u2019s what was outlined for rural providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2c0e0ef79b947d6a5d475521f3e075f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2c0e0ef79b947d6a5d475521f3e075f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to come to clause 9 of this Bill, the Water Services Legislation Bill, which proposes to amend section 18 of the primary legislation: \u201COther things water services entities can do\u201D. Clause 9(3) says, \u201CA water service entity\u2014may establish, own \u2026 or operate a subsidiary only if the subsidiary complies with the requirements specified in Schedule 5\u201D. But more importantly, clause 9(3)(b) says what it may not do: it \u201Cmay not enter into a partnership with another person or persons.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, assuming that means a natural person or a person in the sense that it could be a corporate, this clause appears to extinguish the opportunity for water service entities to partner with the private sector to deliver services in the form of a public-private partnership, for example, or a special purpose vehicle, for example, Minister, where a local government entity now, or in this case a water services entity of the future, which is seeking private and institutional capital\u2014it could be from the Accident Compensation Corporation, where that capital comes from. It could be from the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, it could be from KiwiSaver, it could be from an iwi investment fund; the private capital component, plus private management experience, capability, whatever that specific expertise is, partnering with water service entities in the form of a public-private partnership, say, to deliver a whole lot of new services for a new subdivision, or, potentially, to upgrade existing networks in existing urban environments to allow for much higher densities to be built. For example, where currently there are one- or two-storey homes\u2014many parts of our major metros are zoned for six storeys or even eight storeys by right, Minister, but they can\u2019t proceed because the water infrastructure is very expensive and, whether it\u2019s a council or a water service entity, it\u2019s not clear where the capital will come from to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo Minister, could you please confirm: does clause 9, which amends section 18 of the primary legislation, extinguish the ability of water service entities to enter into public-private partnerships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00227fc291ef97d44057bcae318a89ee7cb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fc291ef97d44057bcae318a89ee7cb4\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E No, it doesn\u2019t, and we covered this to some degree last night when the answer to Ms Grigg\u2019s question around council-owned council-controlled organisations (CCOs)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223029f2eb183040e084da68c36d584330\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Great question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221076ea95bba74508985eb16dff8b04c0\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: It was a great question, actually\u2014very topical and a good opportunity to clarify some of those concerns that are out there. What I said in response to that question was that only the CCOs in Wellington and Auckland will be included in that. The others will remain in ownership with the councils. There is nothing in this bill that would stop entities entering into joint ventures with those or with private companies as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002226eb26659e5d4fb898b82d8e8f387d4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226eb26659e5d4fb898b82d8e8f387d4d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00228fb0dde2273e4b40a68c10eb162c1ae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fb0dde2273e4b40a68c10eb162c1ae7\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. What a relief to have been able to ask another question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ELook, if I could turn the Minister\u2019s mind please to clause 11, just following on from Simon Court\u2019s questions around the obligation to maintain water services. I also want to extrapolate that out to clauses 17, 18, and even\u2014no, just 18. I think it\u2019d be really helpful for the Minister\u2014I think everybody in this House acknowledges there is enormous public discontent and disconcertion around this bill, and I think it would be very helpful if the Minister could outline, particularly around clause 11, the \u201CObligation to maintain water services\u201D and the \u201Ctransfer [of] any of its significant infrastructure to a subsidiary that the water services entity owns or operates.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EIs the Minister aware, or has any work been done around the monetary value of each and every entity thus far and the infrastructure assets that these entities will inherit off the territorial authorities? Are territorial authorities in a position to understand the full picture of the removal of those assets from their own balance sheets, and are you able to go through, entity by entity, what the value of each of those entities is going to be worth? I\u2019ll come to 18 and 17 shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00229ce25515abef4313b6b96ba10c200abb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ce25515abef4313b6b96ba10c200abb\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E So the process for outlining and establishing the value of the assets and what will be transferred from councils to entities was set out in the previous Act, but I\u2019m happy to quickly outline how that process would work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo the initial transition unit is in that process already with the councils in the Auckland and Northland entity because, of course, the amendment bill that was passed last week doesn\u2019t change that proposed entity. So the go-live date stays as it is and that work is under way. That is by way of agreement, because of course they need to agree to the value of the asset, what\u2019s going to be transferred, the level of debt that will be removed from the council\u2019s books and be taken on by the entity. All those things need to be agreed on before they can progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn terms of the clause that was mentioned by the member, the purpose of this is to ensure that the ownership of the asset stays public so that it stays with the entities. It can\u2019t be transferred to a subsidiary or, heaven forbid, to a private company. It must maintain public ownership, and clause 11 helps establish that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002265ba5704669d443497cd6c5131e32ada\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265ba5704669d443497cd6c5131e32ada\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I apologise to my colleague Nicola Grigg, who obviously had a couple of other questions, but I wasn\u2019t going to lose out on my opportunity to actually ask the Minister in the chair, Kieran McAnulty, a question. I\u2019d like to thank the Minister for being very generous with his time and actually endeavouring to answer often what seems like quite repetitive\u2014I\u2019ll actually go to something quite different. In clause 17, it is in relation to \u201CObligation to publish asset management plan\u201D, and it says that \u201CAs soon as practicable after an asset management plan is provided to the regional representative group, the chief executive of a water services entity must publish the asset management plan\u201D. I\u2019m trying to find out what that actually means. Practicable\u2014as soon as it\u2019s practicable\u2014normally, there is a time line as to when they have to do that, within a certain time period. I\u2019m wanting to know if the Minister actually has it in his mind as to how soon that is, what \u201Cpracticable\u201D actually means\u2014\u201CAs soon as practicable\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAlso, it talks about how it has to be published \u201Con an Internet site maintained by, or on behalf of, the water services entity in a format that is readily accessible.\u201D Does he actually have instructions to the officials that it has to be mobile accessible, because often people use their mobile to access things, and sometimes internet sites are not that friendly to mobile users.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00222b96b370a09d4bca85549d4323b59b0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b96b370a09d4bca85549d4323b59b0b\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The term \u201Cas soon as practicable\u201D is used throughout legislation and is consistent\u2014for example, it\u2019s in the Crown Entities Act. So, when it\u2019s already in place and systems are already under way, we thought it was important to remain consistent. In terms of referencing internet sites, that includes a requirement for mobile accessibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022339f79fcbe7e417ebe9f575cb7f7fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022339f79fcbe7e417ebe9f575cb7f7fb9b\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I\u2019d like you to clarify your answer to my question before, which referenced an answer that you\u2019d given to Nicola Grigg about council-controlled organisations. Minister, it\u2019s very clear in replacement section 18(4), inserted by clause 9, that \u201Cpartnership has the meaning given to it [or set out] under sections 8 and 9 of the Partnership Law Act\u201D. This Water Services Legislation Bill says that entities may not enter into a partnership\u2014they may not, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m seeking your clarification. Does that mean that they may not enter into public-private partnerships? Because, potentially, the Minister thinks that a council-controlled organisation is a public-private partnership. It\u2019s not\u2014it\u2019s not. A public-private partnership has quite a different definition. That is where the public sector partners with the private sector. The private sector provides the capital, the technical nous, the management experience, and the private sector, in reward for providing capital and as a reward for taking a risk, takes a profit, Minister, from the activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIf you look at the partnership definition in the nature of partnership in the Partnership Law Act 2019, it says, \u201CPartnership is the relationship that exists between persons carrying on a business in common with a view to profit\u201D. Minister, that appears to be at odds with your previous statement which, as far as I was aware, said that public-private partnerships could continue, although you did refer to council-controlled organisations which are not public-private partnerships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo would you provide some clarity, Minister? Will water service entities be able to engage with the private sector to stand up public-private partnerships for the purpose of seeking private and institutional capital, to invest in infrastructure and to have access to management and expertise from the private sector and to have that asset funded, financed, delivered, operated, and maintained by the private sector, or do you, Minister, and this Government exclude the private sector from having that role in infrastructure delivery in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00220b8380d5a3074adb9a65a7bf7043a015\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b8380d5a3074adb9a65a7bf7043a015\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I did answer that question. At the end of the answer, I made it really clear that there is nothing in this bill that prevents entities entering into joint ventures with private companies. Then in the follow-up question from Ms Grigg, I clarified that the limit on that joint venture is that there cannot be any transfer of ownership of assets, but there\u2019s nothing in this bill that suggests that they can\u2019t enter into joint ventures, and that was clearly answered when I answered this the first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00220e2c73e0c66a4e5da3771b3158d8a8c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e2c73e0c66a4e5da3771b3158d8a8c0\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bce97fad520347bea399c3650dd3ca8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bce97fad520347bea399c3650dd3ca8a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: There are nine new parts being inserted into Part 1, and the scope of the debate is extremely wide. I\u2019m aware that we have been debating Part 1 for just over an hour\u2014about an hour and 10, maybe. I am hearing new material, but I am listening carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022f34ba338dc2e49b482c9c7dbdd3be130\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f34ba338dc2e49b482c9c7dbdd3be130\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. There is obviously still a lot to cover. I did mention previously to the Minister that I\u2019d like to have a quick trot through clauses 18 and 19, which relate to the content and the obligation to publish funding and pricing plans. Now, appreciating that the charging principles are specified in new section 31 in clause 22, again, for listeners\u2014for those at home\u2014can the Minister please outline the philosophy, I suppose, around the setting of the charging principles; again, the philosophy around how affordable or otherwise these principles intend to be; and what guarantees can the Minister give that this is actually an improvement on the existing establishment that is already occurring under the rule of territorial authorities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd1159112aff4d56aaa456fb8226b403\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd1159112aff4d56aaa456fb8226b403\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just to carry on from my learned colleague Nicola Grigg, around the section where we\u2019re looking at charging, I wanted to drill in to new section 319 in clause 22: \u201CRating information needed by water services entity\u201D. I think it would be helpful for the committee if the Minister could outline what legislation would enable, I suppose, the passing on of that information that is currently held by councils, what permission each ratepayer would need to give for that information to be passed on to the new water entity for charging, and is there an ability for a ratepayer to refuse permission for that information to be passed on and what would happen if a ratepayer decided to pursue that course of action? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00228ecdb2373a9e4a56ae756db002121cb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ecdb2373a9e4a56ae756db002121cb5\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I just wanted to pick up on one of the new parts\u2014new section 200 in clause 22, actually\u2014with regard to the power to carry out work in relation to water services on, over, or under land. This part, I think, warrants further exploration because we are treading new ground here and proposing a significant change for our communities. That, unsurprisingly, leads to an increased level of concern within those communities, and whist relationships with councils can sometimes be fraught or challenging, generally people have a reasonable understanding of what that looks like, how they work with them and how they interact and what sorts of things they can expect when they are carrying out those interactions, if necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EUnder this new proposal, what I\u2019m interested to know is around that new section 200 in regard to carrying out the work, what power there is for the landowners to be able to negotiate around, first of all, the need for that work and the type of work and the complexity of it, if it\u2019s being imposed on their property, and then what sort of timing may occur around that. I think the timing part is really interesting. I\u2019m interested to understand where the level of agreement would sit and if there is any influence that the landowner can have based on, in my area, the Waikato, for example, which is a strong farming area. There are a lot of seasonal activities undertaken at certain times of the year that could be unduly influenced if work were to be carried out during one of those periods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested to understand what ability there is for that landowner to push back and to say that on one hand they don\u2019t want the work, or, secondly, if the work is happening\u2014which may have occurred under new section 204 in clause 22 where, potentially, a court order has been obtained to force the work to be able to be carried out\u2014then what ability they have subsequent to that decision being made to then be able to influence the timing of it so as to minimise the impact on their farming business, or whatever their business may be. But in the instance I\u2019m specifically looking at, it is more around the rural impact from the timing of the seasonality of some of those activities, and maybe it\u2019s planting crops or maybe it\u2019s going through calving or lambing, where there could be particularly disruptive periods if work was undertaken during one of those times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo I really want to understand what clarity the Minister can give that there will be a level of influence available to these landowners, given that we\u2019re entering into quite a new type of relationship with a new entity. There\u2019s a lot of uncertainty and, unsurprisingly, they\u2019ll be wanting to know where they might sit and if they need to start planning for the risk of any additional work or the timing, and the impositions that may have on their businesses and what considerations they may need to give to that. So I\u2019d appreciate some insight, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8a73c11de9247bc91e02e2ea389b977\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8a73c11de9247bc91e02e2ea389b977\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In regard to the question from Nicola Grigg, the charging principles are based on similar regimes in the OECD, and these provisions link through to the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. They enable the Commerce Commission to issue determinations on the charging principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn response to Mr Doocey\u2019s question, rating information needs to be passed on to ensure that entities can charge\u2014for example, stormwater charging. This will also enable charges to be levied on the basis of property values, as they are, currently, by councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn response to Mr van de Molen, of course, new section 200 in clause 22 actually enables the landowner to specify reasonable conditions for the entities who want to do works on their private land. An objections process can also occur. These are modernised arrangements that already exist for other utility providers, and so are unlikely to cause disruption or a change in practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00226b13a688b4cc42bdbddb8d9015571fe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b13a688b4cc42bdbddb8d9015571fe3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just one question for the Minister: what\u2019s the estimated cost of the improvements needed in the Auckland waste water network to enable people to swim on the beaches in the North Shore and eastern suburbs? Minister, I\u2019m just seeking your clarification of that number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc3d11bb2bd442df98361e11177c3da3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc3d11bb2bd442df98361e11177c3da3\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just continuing the discussion around rating information and charging for water, I\u2019d be interested to hear from the Minister whether there was any consideration that maybe councils maintain the function of facilitating the payment for water charging, or is the bill going to come directly from the water entity itself; and whether councils were considered a way of maintaining that relationship with the ratepayer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00223781c5c6cb2a461c90fb4a9b1e7691ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223781c5c6cb2a461c90fb4a9b1e7691ba\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The Hon David Bennett\u2019s question isn\u2019t related to the bill, and Mr Doocey\u2019s question is a fair one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve been dealing with councils in regards to charging and what provisions they themselves may be able to offer. As we\u2019re all aware, councils often charge on behalf of regional councils in their rates bills and then siphon that off to the regional council so that ratepayers only get the one bill. There is provision for that, but it\u2019s up to each council as to whether they\u2019d be willing to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn essence, though, the charge for water will come from the entities. Whether it goes through each local council will be determined by that entity. There is a provision in there that as a transitional period, the councils will be asked to pass on the bill in the first instance. We\u2019ve had some mixed feedback on that, and where that might cause some difficulty for councils\u2014whether they have the resources to be able to do that\u2014we\u2019re going to work through them on that. Hopefully we\u2019ll be able to get through it without putting any undue burden on councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002284dc7891e13c4269ad8df82d5e47dab7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284dc7891e13c4269ad8df82d5e47dab7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, the Minister in the chair, Kieran McAnulty, gave a very terse answer trying to dismiss the issue of stormwater, and I expected that from that Minister. But the question is: either he doesn\u2019t know, he doesn\u2019t want to reveal, or he didn\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef29208809a4619a8e21afb6d10f0e5\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Or it\u2019s out of scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479cecaa5be64e6aa6c8c852b289e0ed\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, it\u2019s not\u2014it\u2019s not out of scope, because if you go to Subpart 2 and you look at stormwater, how can you make these rules if you don\u2019t have an understanding of the amount? That\u2019s the third part. You know, how can the Minister engage in all this legislation without knowing what the costs are going to be, and how can those costs then be attributed to different places?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, answer the question: how much are we dealing with in quantum in cost, because you made all these rules\u2014the natural implication, if you won\u2019t give the cost, is that you made the rules without understanding or actually identifying the cost. It\u2019s either one or the other, and we\u2019ll draw our inference from your answer. So what is the cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00225cc51a4464fa44e89b1e89c2cab5db9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cc51a4464fa44e89b1e89c2cab5db9f\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s not one or the other; it\u2019s the fact that we are here in a committee stage for this piece of legislation and the member\u2019s question refers to bills that have already passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022e99fc02d30d84f1893e1656ec0d97409\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e99fc02d30d84f1893e1656ec0d97409\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Given that the Minister is also the Minister for Emergency Management, I just want to turn your mind to the clauses in the bill that talk about action in emergencies. And I know I keep banging on about Entity (I) because it is my home patch. If I could just outline to the Minister, some of the water provision in the Selwyn District, for example, is bore or aquifer driven; some is also from service water. I think of the likes of a little town called Springfield and Sheffield and another little town called Hororata. They got very, very badly impacted in the 2021 floods because the rivers that were supplying the town water were blocked with rubble and trees and shingle and so on and so forth, which took a very, very long time to clear, and a very long time for the turbidity to flow on through, and a very long time for residents to be able to use their tap water once again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo bearing in mind that Entity (I), the Canterbury councils, will also be merged with the West Coast councils\u2014which I would wager are even more flood prone than on our side of the divide\u2014with regard to clause 220, the \u201CManagement and maintenance of water services infrastructure\u201D, in the context of emergency management whereby \u201Cwater services entity must manage and maintain the water services infrastructure in its service area.\u201D Can the Minister outline a time frame, given, you know, the conception of the entities, the urgency of the work, the remedial work, the mitigation work that needs to be carried out in Canterbury and indeed on the West Coast? How soon can residents and ratepayers expect that their water supplies are going to be futureproofed for future natural disasters and emergencies and flood events?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022800d159eb2284de3955da05a607aa5fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022800d159eb2284de3955da05a607aa5fa\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I can\u2019t give a detailed answer on that. That\u2019s up to each entity and the constitution that is established. But the answers actually fall within what has already been passed in previous bills, in that the changes that we made with the amendment bill last week gives each council within the entity a seat on the regional representative group. There\u2019s also a commitment that those workers that are based in each area can maintain a presence in that area. And that\u2019s really important for the entity you\u2019re referring to, because, of course, there\u2019s no point having all the workers in Christchurch when they\u2019re trying to serve the West Coast, and vice versa. It\u2019s vitally important that the regional representative group ensures, through their constitution, that every area is serviced. That\u2019s why I was particularly keen to ensure that every council had a seat, because my concern was that rural areas would miss out, and isolated areas would miss out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ETo the specific question around a time line, that falls to the entities in those councils that are on the regional representative groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00224475135dd5a14c5b917d9d99b2b569f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224475135dd5a14c5b917d9d99b2b569f9\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I\u2019d like to ask some questions about the amendments to the purpose and content of the Government policy statement, which is clause 13 of this bill, which amends section 133 of the primary legislation. Minister, the purpose and content of the Government policy statement for water services states the Government\u2019s overall direction and priorities for water services, and informs and guides agencies involved and the activities necessary or desirable for water services. And, Minister, if we look at section 133(3)(a)(viii), what this does is it inserts a requirement to consider geographical averaging \u201Cof residential water supply and residential wastewater service prices across each \u2026 entity\u2019s area\u201D; (ix) \u201Credressing historic service inequities\u201D; and (x)\u2014or 10 if you translate it from Roman Latin into English\u2014\u201Coverall direction and priorities for charging arrangements for water services\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, Minister, given that there are so many different arrangements now that councils have for charging for water services and infrastructure connections, I\u2019m interested in what direction and priorities this Minister might have for water service entities on the day that this bill is passed. Because, for example, in Auckland we\u2019ve had water meters since the 1990s. So if you are using a hose to wash the car or you are watering your garden at the height of summer, you can hear the whirring clicking sound of the meter outside your property as it spins and records the volume of water that you\u2019re using. And if you are conscientious about using less water because you have to pay for each cubic metre and you want to keep your water bill down, you might check it in the morning and then go back and check it in the afternoon to work out how much water you\u2019ve used. Well, what that means is that Auckland has the lowest consumption per household of water of any region in the country because water is metered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd then we compare that to Wellington, Minister, Wellington City Council, which meters businesses but not households and has amongst the highest losses of potable water from its water supply network of any city in New Zealand. Estimated up to 30 percent of the drinking water that is treated and supplied to residential customers in Wellington ends up running down the road. I\u2019ve had that experience myself when I first came to Wellington as a new MP in 2020; identifying water running down the road and putting my hands down to sample that water and discovering that it reeked of chlorine. Well, at least the water\u2019s being treated here in Wellington. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut, Minister, what does that tell you? The overall direction and priorities for charging arrangements are all over the place currently. So how would this Government, how would a Minister, how would a Government policy statement\u2014that this Minister might sign off on in his role as local government Minister or Minister responsible for water service entities\u2014give direction and priorities for charging arrangements? Would it do the rational thing and insist that every customer has a meter and that every customer pays a volumetric charge? Or would the Minister be satisfied with the status quo, where most of New Zealand is unmetered? Most New Zealand households and businesses have no idea whether the water they\u2019re using is going to result in increased cost, and, of course, the flow through to that is that cities like Wellington potentially have to build a whole lot more water storage and distribution because a third of it is running down the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, what would this Government\u2019s priorities be for charging arrangements for water services in terms of this proposed amendment to the primary legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002210e37faf0e204ca0962e97d407b490e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210e37faf0e204ca0962e97d407b490e5\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I have some more information for Ms Grigg: section 217 ensures that entities can take the action they need to immediately deal with emergencies. And so I think that\u2019s important, be they in the West Coast, Canterbury, or wherever, that when there is a natural disaster they have the ability to just get on and fix it. But also, clause 220(2A), landowners will not be responsible for impairments caused to a stormwater network that are caused by a natural disaster or emergency, so that falls to the entities. So I think that\u2019s an important point and useful information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to Mr Court\u2019s comments, the Government policy statement is not a direction to an entity. While the bill enables water entities to charge through meters, it does not mandate that. This is up to entities and the councils that feed into it. We felt that was appropriate, particularly given the points that have been raised by that member and others around ensuring that local voices are heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00226361edbe80aa4528b44d184abddae8c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226361edbe80aa4528b44d184abddae8c6\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014great choice; not that I\u2019m competitive. I\u2019d like to continue exploration around volumetric charging. I\u2019m looking at sections 239, 330, and 331, in clause 22, and my question to the Minister is around the water entities. I see in section 330 that the board may set charges and charge a fixed or variable fee. My question is around the issue\u2014and it did come up, I think, during the select committee stage, I\u2019m led to believe\u2014with the submissions: will it be a fixed charge for the volumetric charging across all the customers for each water entity or will there be a variation within certain areas of the water entity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00229f6101f8a1454b77a4388b767304e8ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f6101f8a1454b77a4388b767304e8ef\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Mr Doocey for his question. It\u2019s covered in section 475, in clause 22, and the answer is a point that I\u2019ve made a number of times now. This bill enables the entities to make decisions that are best for them. His question will be answered by each entity in a way that is best for those communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022eff362f3a16b414490948ecf98cc7d72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eff362f3a16b414490948ecf98cc7d72\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister in relation to when the water services entities exercise their power to, perhaps, access owners\u2019 properties to lay infrastructure. Apart from the fact that they actually need to get permission, they may also need to move the utility operator\u2019s infrastructure that is under the ground, for example. This is in Part 1, clause 22, in relation to section 211(2). There is no mention in terms of compensation should that exercise actually go wrong, because often you hear about people who actually dig underground and cut fibre-optic cables because they read the map wrong and accessed the wrong entry way and potentially cut thousands of people off their telecommunications line. Maybe I\u2019ve missed it, but I don\u2019t actually see it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI am comparing that to section 222, where it talks about where the road owner, the owner of the house who actually has to dig up the land and potentially has to move the water infrastructure because of something that they\u2019re doing\u2014the cost is borne by the property owner. So I\u2019m trying to find out if there is compensation specified\u2014perhaps the Minister could point me to that. I specifically ask that because during Cyclone Gabrielle, there were power cuts which impacted on telecommunications, both landline and mobile infrastructure, as well as fibre that was actually cut, and it took so long for a fix to be brought into the area, because telecommunications companies could not even helicopter the batteries to the area because there was no power to\u2014is it the civil aviation towers?\u2014actually land the planes. And I thought, \u201CHow did they land our planes in the past without power?\u201D They had hand signals, I think. I\u2019m sure I look ridiculous, actually, pretending I\u2019m a signal person, but I\u2019m trying to find out\u2014in situations like that, you would actually want to make sure that there is a contingency plan and the Minister has actually stipulated those kinds of instructions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1e1af95161a4cc984f889523e4b31f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1e1af95161a4cc984f889523e4b31f6\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Compensation provisions are in the Public Works Act, and section 222 is directly based on the Electricity Act 1992, and they\u2019re quite longstanding provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022614337ad8a1043a8b9cc9f4b322fab22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022614337ad8a1043a8b9cc9f4b322fab22\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014great choice. The Minister, I think, would do well to explain to New Zealanders around section 231, that the \u201CBoard may designate controlled drinking water catchment areas\u201D. I was quite fascinated to read through this particular part of the bill which talks about allocating controlled drinking water catchment areas for the purposes of, you know, geographical areas that surround surface water and a groundwater catchment from which drinking water can be abstracted. But the detail goes further to talk about that designations may be made only if \u201Cthe water services entity owns or has long-term control of the land\u201D, or \u201Cthe owner of the land to which the designation relates agrees to the designation.\u201D Now, that\u2019s really interesting. Again, when I think about the Canterbury example where a lot of the catchment area falls on private land and farm land, particularly in Selwyn where the district territorial authorities area, like the electorate, goes all the way to the Arthur\u2019s Pass. So there\u2019s obviously a lot of headwaters coming out of the Alps in the foothills. But it\u2019s quite, I think, topical to discuss whether, when the catchment area falls into private land, will this include any form of compensation to that landowner? And I think, from a Crown entity perspective, what is the Crown\u2019s estimate thus far of the total compensation that may have to be meted out to cover all areas within the country that will be captured by this part of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4d82ee726db40d68b7a5b635d70d61c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4d82ee726db40d68b7a5b635d70d61c\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I wanted to continue with the exploration around volumetric charging that the Minister referred to, that there is autonomy for the water services entities to look at the fixed price for their customers. So I suppose the next question with that course of exploration would be: is there a potential for each council within the water service entity to have a different fixed price for volumetric charging?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022193d48b5c99341fb85a59b7d89c908a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022193d48b5c99341fb85a59b7d89c908a3\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221f7239c72d8f45359994bb32e8c698c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f7239c72d8f45359994bb32e8c698c4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no. As we already know, there are a number of new parts being inserted into Part 1. Each of those parts brings substantive measures into the bill. I think that this debate should allow for members to raise questions and issues they find with each and every one of those parts. We are keeping a close eye on the debate. Part of that close eye, also, is having a look at how much of a particular part to be inserted is being debated and has there been enough debate on that. I am listening very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002204e4bfe6b2c842f097f27b30d653d929\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204e4bfe6b2c842f097f27b30d653d929\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m on clause 330: \u201CBoard may set certain charges\u201D, and it says the board may charge \u201Ca fixed and variable [rate] \u2026 require a deposit\u201D, etc., Clause 331 talks about promoting the efficient use of resources, and under (1)(ii)(A), \u201C[the] groups receive different levels or types of services\u201D, etc., but I\u2019m at a loss to see where there is any cost-benefit analysis and justification for setting the prices. We see the methodology of setting them, but these boards are a monopoly. Obviously, monopolies in the rest of our economy have very strict rules about their pricings; take the electricity lines companies, for example. They are allowed to charge under certain rules, but the Commerce Commission has to approve their planned expenditure to ensure that it\u2019s not overly gold-plated, etc. What assurances are under this Water Services Legislation Bill that the consumers are actually getting value for money for that investment, rather than just being charged a charge at the whim of the governing entity; the board or committee that rules that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022bed8b8c44ff040dcb267ab4bc38ac751\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bed8b8c44ff040dcb267ab4bc38ac751\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I wish to ask you about clause 17, which replaces section 153 in the original legislation, and that is the \u201CObligation to publish an asset management plan\u201D. Now, an asset management plan is absolutely critical to local authorities who currently run their water networks or road networks; to a telecoms company that runs fibre or cellular. Minister, when it comes to community-owned assets, like the three waters infrastructure, councils and their communities are very, very concerned that even with the changes proposed to the way three waters is operated and funded in New Zealand, that they maintain a voice\u2014a say\u2014in how these assets are managed, and Minister, you\u2019ve done your best to convince New Zealanders that councils will continue to have a say. Then I come to clause 17 here, where section 153 is replaced with a new obligation to publish an asset management plan, that appears to remove the requirement to report on how territorial local authority\u2014in other words, a council\u2014had input and feedback on an asset management plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, Minister, whether you or the Labour Government likes to admit it or not, local councils still have a role in land use planning, in consenting, and all of those other functions that people expect their local council to have, and that has a direct bearing on how water services an water assets are managed and controlled. And yet, Minister, in clause 17, which amends section 153 of the original Act\u2014actually, local councils\u2019 needs are excluded. What this now says, instead of \u201Cprepare and publish a report on how the entity considered consumer and community and territorial authority owners input into, and feedback on the plan, and incorporated that feedback into the plan\u201D, Minister, it replaces that with \u201Cthe chief executive of the water services entity must \u2026 publish [an] asset management plan on [the] Internet.\u201D It says nothing about whether a local council and community\u2019s feedback on the asset management plan has been incorporated into it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd I might give you an example, Minister, that\u2019s very close to home. In fact, the Hon Phil Twyford, the MP for Te Atat\u016B, raised it last night in the House when speaking about this bill. He raised the issue of the constant wastewater overflows from the network in Auckland to Te Wai o Pareira / Henderson Creek. Some of those overflows occur, Minister, from manholes right next to the boat ramp where the Waka Ama club, the Multisports club, the Water Ski club, and the Waitemat\u0101 rowing club launch their boats; right next to the floating pontoon where school kids come from Rutherford College and Matipo Primary School to swim after school. Now, if the community told a water service entity \u201CWe\u2019re very, very unhappy that that wastewater overflow, which occurs regularly, even after a shower of rain\u2014we\u2019re very unhappy that continues, we want you to do something about it\u201D\u2014but if the water service entity doesn\u2019t have to take that into account, they can simply publish an asset management plan, whatever they think it should be, and publish it on the internet. Then how on earth, Minister, are communities, councils around New Zealand supposed to have confidence that these reforms will actually deliver for communities? Because although the Minister\u2019s tried to assure the New Zealand public that they will, I think this change to the primary legislation reveals the truth: that in order to push these water service entities through, in order to deliver and operationalise this reform, the Minister has decided that some stuff is just too hard. That if communities are going to have a say in which assets are managed, how they\u2019re operated, and so on, it\u2019s going to make it too hard for these water service entities\u2014for these chief executives, paid $600,000 to $800,000, three of whom are currently unemployed but still getting paid at the Department of Internal Affairs. What\u2019s happening, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00229709a48e19264d22bb9c070404ec29d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229709a48e19264d22bb9c070404ec29d5\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I am just turning now to changing contract prices\u2014and new section 335\u2014and I wonder if the Minister could explain something for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo it says, \u201CThe chief executive of a water services entity may enter into negotiations to change [certain provisions in certain contracts]\u201D, and it goes on\u2014through various (1), (2), and (3)\u2014under (1), the \u201Centity may enter into negotiations to change pricing and charging provisions in a contract that\u2014(a) relates to the supply of water services \u2026 ; (b) is transferred from a local government organisation\u201D, and it says that, under (3), \u201CIf the chief executive and the other parties fail to vary the contract before 1 July 2029, the contract expires.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWell, that\u2019s six years away. What\u2019s that arbitrary date; why the significance of that arbitrary date? Why not 2028 or why not any other particular time, say, than that particular date? I don\u2019t understand the significance of that. So if the Minister could enlighten us on that, it would be much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00220cea53d2c3e042bcbd79626c499c2e3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cea53d2c3e042bcbd79626c499c2e3f\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s nothing stopping the entities renegotiating a contract, and there needs to be a date by which it expires. The member\u2019s right, pointing out that this 1 July 2029 if it\u2019s not. But that\u2019s covered by the ability for entities to renegotiate the contract. They will not necessarily be bound by the terms that they inherit all the way through to 2029.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhile I\u2019m on the member, I may as well answer his first question in this section. That was actually\u2014there\u2019s a bit of a theme here, but that was covered off in Nicola Grigg\u2019s question, actually. This is in reference to the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. That\u2019s outlined in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut to your other question around the catchments, so there\u2019s no change proposed in what currently already exists. So it\u2019s a direct transfer of what\u2019s already in place now; the entities will be bound by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question about compensation, it can only happen with permission. So if there\u2019s no permission, that can\u2019t occur and therefore there\u2019s no provision for compensation because they have to get permission in the first instance. If there is damage to the property for other regions, or the catchment for other regions, the responsibility to fix that falls with the entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EMr Doocey\u2019s question, new section 332. This will all be publicly available to ensure transparency. An entity is required to engage with territorial authorities, consumers, and communities on a funding plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to Mr Court\u2019s question: again, this was all set out in the Water Services Entities Act, Schedule 3 specifically. However, new sections 461 and 465 outline, in this bill, that they\u2019ll still be required to publish feedback.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022d222e70c4f1f455d9533daf06ec31028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d222e70c4f1f455d9533daf06ec31028\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I\u2019ll thank the Minister for his answers as well. I just wanted to drill down into his response there. Just to clarify, so it seems like he is saying that there will be an ability for each council jurisdiction within the water entities to have a different volumetric fixed charge, and, I suppose, what will be the course of action a council could take if they think that that pricing was too high? I think that then flows through to a further question, which is: what are the principles that those decisions will be made on around the fixed charge? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWhere I\u2019m going with that, no doubt he\u2019s gone round the country and spoken to\u2014well, we do know that, because they all came back and said, \u201CNice guy; wrong party.\u201D But a lot of them think they have done very well, and there might be a parochial aspect there as well, but I do know quite intimately one council where I live that has done exceedingly well, because the ratepayers have invested into their water assets. So it will be interesting when that variation comes out in charging within a water entity and how the decision is made, based on, I suppose, the level of investment that ratepayers perceive they have put in over the years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022001caaf54a7f409fbc67c5df721bceca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022001caaf54a7f409fbc67c5df721bceca\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. It has actually been addressed, but I\u2019ll go and do a wee bit more one last time. So in replacement section 475, inserted by clause 22, there will be the ability to limit, through regulation, the ratio between fixed and volumetric charges for residential customers if it was considered necessary, for example, to protect vulnerable consumers. This is up to the entities. It won\u2019t necessarily be along territorial authority boundaries, but it\u2019s not necessarily a uniform charge across the board. The entity, through the direction of the regional representative group, of which all councils are members, will be able to adjust pricing according to the realities in those communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022a783a811cad54c1c8f51d7ffa48a8ec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a783a811cad54c1c8f51d7ffa48a8ec4\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister McAnulty, I\u2019m sorry; I found your response to my previous question wholly unsatisfactory. But if we come to section 20 of the Water Services Legislation Bill before us, which amends 159 of the primary legislation, \u201CObligation to publish [an] infrastructure strategy\u201D, we find the same theme emerging, that the obligation to publish an infrastructure strategy in the legislation this bill amends says quite clearly, 159(b), \u201Cprepare and publish a report\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the infrastructure strategy\u2014\u201Con how consumer and community, and territorial authority\u201D\u2014council\u2014\u201Cowner[s], input into, and feedback on, the strategy was considered and incorporated into the strategy.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, this Water Services Legislation Bill replaces the requirement to demonstrate how feedback from the community, from the owner, from consumers was considered and incorporated into the strategy with \u201Cthe chief executive of a water service entity must publish the \u2026 strategy on an Internet site\u201D. Well, publishing something that you\u2019ve developed behind closed doors, having heard everybody\u2019s concerns but not having to explain how you\u2019ve taken them into account, doesn\u2019t sound like communities having a voice. It doesn\u2019t sound like the territorial authority or council owners having a voice, and it certainly doesn\u2019t sound like meaningful consultation and actually changing what these entities might do in response to feedback from communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe must only contrast that with the requirement to give effect to Te Mana o te Wai statements provided by iwi and hap\u016B, because, Minister, if a water service entities chief executive\u2014one of those people who will be paid between $600,000 and $800,000 a year; there\u2019ll be at least 10 of them\u2014if one of those chief executives\u2019 only obligation to respond to the council asset owner, the community, and the consumer is to publish a strategy but not explain how they took on those concerns or those issues that a community wanted to be resolved, and yet iwi and hap\u016B have the right to have their Te Mana o te Wai statements given effect to by these water service entities, do you think that might undermine confidence in your assertions and this Government\u2019s assertions, and the previous Minister\u2019s assertions, that the water reforms are actually going to deliver for communities? Does it continue to reinforce the suspicions that many have, Minister, that this is somehow some kind of Treaty settlement in drag, that every reference to M\u0101ori rights and interests in water that appeared to be strengthened, enhanced, and given effect to by this bill\u2014even though they\u2019re not proven, even though the Minister Nanaia Mahuta stated categorically in reply to a written question that I put to her when she was previously the Minister responsible for this bill back in 2022 that iwi M\u0101ori don\u2019t have any rights or interests in three waters assets beyond that of a member of the community that they live in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, would you please explain why consumers, communities, territorial authority owners\u2014why a water service entity doesn\u2019t have to consider and incorporate their views into the strategy, why they simply have to publish a strategy on the internet but at the same time give effect to Te Mana o te Wai statements provided by iwi and hap\u016B. Minister, that is one of the reasons why New Zealanders have lost faith in these reforms and have completely lost confidence in this Labour Government, but you could potentially pull a rabbit out of the hat right now and convince us otherwise. Have a go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002224c34bf034b848ef819cf0f64379a418\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224c34bf034b848ef819cf0f64379a418\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I won\u2019t, because, as was covered quite extensively last night, everything the member\u2019s just mentioned has already been passed in previous bills. This bill references obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi, but the member\u2019s point is to give effect to the Treaty of Waitangi and give effect to Te Mana o te Wai statements. As I said last night on a couple of occasions at least, that is in reference to the Water Services Entities Act, which is already passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4685c01142447e9ac1e6c567615c496\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4685c01142447e9ac1e6c567615c496\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e4b2790d7fd4e6e9b3cd6aae7453162\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2060670b3054c77a365594b31e193e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2060670b3054c77a365594b31e193e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 418 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aa1096e1747340a0a50fcc48219f22d6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228e9d5fb2110d46aab866f6612d9d7c6e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f99360cc8674c29a464414e5fe1e1ac\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to and repeal of other legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcdaee673d5644d89c74e9acf4adccde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcdaee673d5644d89c74e9acf4adccde\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2, \u201CAmendments to and repeal of other legislation\u201D. This is the debate on clauses 26 to 203, and Schedules 3 and 4. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2b8eb4633c84ad68f20641e2fba16fd\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1bf5fd04b3948969ec223cf056ca2a2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member seeking a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a06d45dc09d48e090d72144fc662303\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf5e46e4fde04521aad498c01bf3962c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! If members want the debate to continue, they need to stand up and seek a call. I was just about to start ruling, or whatever it is I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e16181e1b8f34016a9013b97b5a45a6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e16181e1b8f34016a9013b97b5a45a6a\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, so, looking at new section 468A, actually\u2014and this comes to the earlier comment I\u2019d been making about the uncertainty this legislation creates as well, because when we\u2019re coming through a significant transition phase, there is, unsurprisingly, a significant level of concern around what that might be for different individuals as they\u2019re impacted, but also for the councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EIn this instance, we see a change proposing the contract term that was originally set at being able to go up to a limit of 35 years when contracts relate to the provisions of drain management, for example. So in this instance, obviously, you\u2019ve got entities investing in significant plant and equipment to be able to undertake this business for a period of time. There was a provision that allowed them to enter into contracts for up to 35 years in respect of those matters, including covering water courses, repairing properties, removing private drains, cutting down trees, etc.\u2014that sort of maintenance work\u2014but now the proposal is to reduce that to less than half, to only 15 years. I\u2019m interested to understand why the Minister has decided what originally, presumably, his decisions were around a 35-year time frame; now it is only a 15-year time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThis actually speaks to some of the broader challenges we have around infrastructure planning and delivery in New Zealand as well, when you have relatively short time frames to give some level of certainty. I say that in the context of primarily investing in the plant and equipment. That\u2019s a significant capital cost that has to be outlaid to procure that equipment, and, of course, you need to be able to generate a return from that over time. So having certainty within your contracts helps to achieve that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBut also, equally importantly, alongside the plant and equipment, is actually having the skills and the competency. This is an issue that we see from a workforce perspective, where we typically go through these waves where we potentially bring in people with skills who are able to do jobs, and then there\u2019s a significant shift in the focus, and those skill sets head off to other opportunities, or, indeed, head offshore, which we\u2019re seeing significantly at the moment. So I really want to understand why we\u2019re reducing that proposal period, and therefore creating more uncertainty when it seemed, clearly, that it was deemed fit for purpose originally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00226b3311e27f894457a300cf8c3cd3befa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b3311e27f894457a300cf8c3cd3befa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 418 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225dc18f95f3f94fbe8a3e68bc20666ba7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d71b30205d6f4a65839fcf970832bd6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d71b30205d6f4a65839fcf970832bd6c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022357302549a6a42afa35cd81cf2d33ad4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10, Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb4280bfc96f46bc9072de3837a8e1bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb4280bfc96f46bc9072de3837a8e1bf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 418 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022919f2b621da64bf29b570d5079e0f645\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002263ff90992f104ed0baafcfc71f8aec75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263ff90992f104ed0baafcfc71f8aec75\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223fc8fa9702e34277974b05b1f31ad847\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229d9a8235000d490098bc570cb83ac247\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d9a8235000d490098bc570cb83ac247\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 418 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228f5c906c424340aa84f68c6bdbff924b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002261b46693c0e3459489ab2e5cbc8cef9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261b46693c0e3459489ab2e5cbc8cef9b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d4a8c3c3da744a5a1ef3088380c1dd3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee966f6002cd46c9bc1cf3738f8da9c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee966f6002cd46c9bc1cf3738f8da9c4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 418 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002222387656dcd646329a364a20e928ee73\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002288d208a23c0c440ea47225a17f75940f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288d208a23c0c440ea47225a17f75940f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221beddf4d186340a49ab662490ab87175\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a608053912634253b9e2399c4b6cee13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a608053912634253b9e2399c4b6cee13\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 418 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c3bb92df6de5494ea5d4b08626131f01\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002265efdc0f3f5b4cf190bb1892b589019f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265efdc0f3f5b4cf190bb1892b589019f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022036a43b6ecea4978a02f97f250605205\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9;Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dfc44bc63247417f96db17eaf2fc9bfc\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022926fbaf171de415c8def21c30031c8bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022926fbaf171de415c8def21c30031c8bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d15151714c5348e1bf05ecb6822a665b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a947637046c84d58921e7632aa3abc29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a947637046c84d58921e7632aa3abc29\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to clause 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 418 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022975973787aae44c49782816a64170076\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022466b9b3d1e4f46d29319c313fbf28831\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022466b9b3d1e4f46d29319c313fbf28831\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 2 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f69fbd4e9af9412f9ba340cf5f800524\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000136\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000137\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223916a19cfe5548588c3e3ebe44fac7d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223916a19cfe5548588c3e3ebe44fac7d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Water Services Legislation Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224f9c8673e99849dca0bcb1dcb6e96ab6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f9c8673e99849dca0bcb1dcb6e96ab6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d670bb767b8c4f87aeaddd392becf651\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022aeda02b2d864490aa8367531ca259417\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aeda02b2d864490aa8367531ca259417\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Water Services Legislation Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to be here today for a third reading of this bill which will provide the new water services entities with the legislative tools and arrangements they will need to be fully operational when they go live, between 1 July 2024 and 1 July 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll briefly canvas the core components of the bill. The Water Services Legislation Bill provides the implementation arrangements to steer the transition from the existing arrangements for water services delivery to a new model\u2014the new model where these water services will be delivered by 10 regionally-based, publicly-owned entities. The bill enables the entities to make rules, plans, and other instruments relating to water services and engage in compliance and enforcement activities. For example, the bill provides that entities must have stormwater management strategies which include stormwater risk management plans. This will provide a system-based approach to stormwater networks and their regulations. It will also ensure the entities identify risks and hazards, and get ahead of potential problems when they turn into disasters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for mandatory relationship agreements between entities, councils, and other parties to manage critical interfaces such as stormwater, and flooding management, and planning under the Resource Management Act. These relationship agreements will set out how parties will work together and will provide for coordination across interdependent roles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe bill also establishes charging mechanisms that provide fair, transparent, and affordable charges to households and businesses for their water services. The bill includes detailed mechanisms relating to the transfer of water services assets, liabilities from local government to the new entities, which are in turn owned by communities through their territorial authorities. It provides strong protections to ensure existing treaty settlements continue to be upheld in the new water services delivery system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe bill provides a pathway for small mixed-use rural supply schemes to be transferred from the entities to the communities, if this is what the community wants and if these schemes meet specified criteria. The bill integrates the water services entities into wider regulatory systems, including the new resource management system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis is a significant reform and I\u2019m proud of the work that has been done to get here. It follows years of research and analysis using the best of local and international expertise, comparative examples, and extensive consultation with local government, iwi M\u0101ori, and the water industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe case for change is clear and what we have here is an evidence-based solution. When I think about the numerous benefits this reform will have, these key things come to mind, which I am pleased to have helped deliver for New Zealanders: an affordable, safe, reliable water network, and one that is resilient in the face of extreme weather events; thousands of dollars saved per household by 2054, based on the research that informed the proposals\u2014specifically, households are projected to save up to $2,770 to $5,400 per year by 2054, on average, depending on which region they are in; entities with the increased size required to access more funding to improve management of water services, which is ultimately how we will save Kiwi households cash, and ensure a reliable and resilient network; water related debt removed from councils balance sheets relieving councils of the burden of servicing this debt, and this will of course help limit future rate increases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe reform is overdue. When we consider that the cost of meeting our country\u2019s water challenges is estimated at between $120 billion and $185 billion over the next 30 years, and we know that this is out of reach of councils to address on their own unless they have unaffordable rates increases for households, it is clear that we are ready for change, and that this is what this bill and these reforms are about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe journey to reach this point began following the 2016 Havelock North water contamination disaster that led to the loss of four lives and made 5,000 people sick. Some continued to live with the long-term impacts of this illness. However, let\u2019s be clear that the systematic issues that may have contributed to the Havelock North tragedy were evident for many years before then, to those who were aware. In a report issued in 2000 entitled \u201CAgeing pipes and murky waters: Urban water system issues for the 21st Century\u201D, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment found evidence that the current model for delivering these services has now reached the end of its design life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAnd that\u2019s the point; this is about the model. It\u2019s about the system, it\u2019s not laying blame. It\u2019s certainly not councils\u2019 fault. They\u2019re doing the best they can with what they\u2019ve got. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ETen years later, in 2010, the previous Government\u2019s Land and Water Forum advised investigation of the potential benefits of rationalisation in the water services sector, and of a more robust regulatory framework. Six years later, in 2016, the Havelock North incident provided a tragic and sharp wake-up call to action. I acknowledge the previous Government\u2019s response, an inquiry which looked not just at the Havelock North contamination incident, but its implications for drinking water services across the country. The Havelock North inquiry clearly identified system-wide issues, including the unacceptable prevalence of waterborne illnesses contracted from publicly owned drinking water services which New Zealanders should be able to trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI would again like to acknowledge the previous Government\u2019s courage in initiating a wider Three Waters Review, which looked at issues across all three services around the country: drinking water, waste water and stormwater. The Water Services Legislation Bill I\u2019m speaking to today, and the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill represent the final components of a comprehensive policy and legislative response to the matters explored in the Havelock North inquiry and Three Waters Review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that looked at the evidence available to us six years ago, acting decisively to protect New Zealanders\u2019 health and wellbeing and that of our environment, and ensuring they don\u2019t face unaffordable bills. We have developed and implemented a new regulatory regime for water suppliers with the Water Services Act 2021. We\u2019ve also established a dedicated drinking water regulator, Taumata Arowai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThese changes will protect New Zealanders\u2019 health and the environment and they received near universal support from the sector. But they are a high bar for water service providers and create an additional affordability challenge which councils cannot meet alone. It is not just the safety of drinking water that is the issue. Waste water discharges into lakes, rivers, and harbours have become a regular occurrence. Recent flooding events have further highlighted the criticality of water services for communities, the economy, and our livelihood, and have laid bare the fragility of our critical water infrastructure for some areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAs I have said, it is estimated that New Zealand needs to invest up to $185 billion in our water services infrastructure over the next 30 years to address decades of underinvestment in our water services infrastructure. The current model for water services delivery simply isn\u2019t up to meeting this challenge, certainly not without huge increases in costs for households, who are at this time facing the same cost of living pressures we are seeing across the world. We currently have 67 territorial authorities delivering water services. These councils often don\u2019t have the finance or scale to make the infrastructure investments necessary. We need a more efficient model with a better access to financing, and that is exactly what this bill delivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe 10 new water services entities will have the size and scale to efficiently deliver water services investment and infrastructure and meet the new regulatory standards. They will also have balance sheet separation or financial independence to allow them to borrow to fund the increased investment in water services infrastructure that New Zealand desperately needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud of what our Government has achieved here. The current situation is untenable and we have here a solution that is backed by evidence. We have done what is needed to ensure the long-term wellbeing of New Zealanders. I want to thank all those who have contributed to the preparation and passage of this bill. I particularly want to thank the local government sector. They have engaged throughout this process, and even in cases when individual councils have not supported the reform, they have put that aside to share their technical expertise and knowledge about the communities they serve. This help has been critical and greatly informed many of the provisions in the bill that is presented today, and the previous two bills in this reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe passage of this bill is a significant milestone in the journey to provide long-term, affordable, safe, reliable, and resilient water services. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228d745b17797a4b3288456c3f9a59981b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d745b17797a4b3288456c3f9a59981b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00220b2fe282023e4582af8e2951c63a187c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b2fe282023e4582af8e2951c63a187c\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This has been a long and convoluted process to get here to this point where, unfortunately, today, due to the numbers in the House because of the result of the 2020 election, this bill will pass. However, for the record, the National Party categorically opposes this bill today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s helpful that we go through the timeline that has brought us here, notwithstanding the events of 2016 in Havelock North; in 2021, when this Government started to make real noises about the dreams and aspirations for water reform in this country; that\u2019s when Nanaia Mahuta announced this four entities model. Ever since that model was announced, there has been nothing but very vocal, strident opposition to this proposal. And particular outrage, I might add, around the provisions of co-governance and the provisions in the make-up of these entities boards that does away with the democratically elected process of the councillors that we, the people, the ratepayers of New Zealand, have elected to represent us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ELet us not forget that back then, this Government tried to entrench some constitutionally dangerous clauses\u2014and they got caught out. They got caught red-handed and they, embarrassingly for them, had to backtrack. It was because of the concerns raised by the National Party that this was made public. This Government had no intention of making that entrenchment clause public. But, in order to try and oil the waters, the Government then went around offering $2.5 billion to councils to get them to opt in to the reform; that then brought us to the Water Services Bill. Then, on 22 June, the water reforms began in earnest with the introduction of the Water Services Entities Bill. That bill alone attracted 88,000 submissions to the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u201497 percent in opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAgain, we have here today a bill that has been passed under urgency, as have the others before it. The night before we were due to debate this bill, the Government dropped a 200-page Supplementary Order Paper to its own piece of legislation. New Zealand has not forgotten the process that has led us here today, and the Government has made changes to its legislation as it\u2019s gone riding roughshod over the democratic process here in New Zealand. This bill, in particular, is to establish and empower the water services entities by establishing their functions, powers, obligations, and oversight arrangements. But unfortunately, this is a missed opportunity. And I have to say to the Minister\u2019s commentary just earlier, I think everybody in this House agrees with the case for change, but it\u2019s how the Government has gone about it is where the agreement begins and ends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ENone of the legislation that we have in front of us here today is aimed at reforming the health and the quality of water. It will not improve water quality into the households and families of New Zealand. It is simply taking away the infrastructure that local councils have been administering that has been paid for by local ratepayers. This bill is making several expansions to an already highly criticised process. The Water Services Legislation Bill is even more complicated than the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill, which also\u2014I might add\u2014passed under urgency. There are three key things in this legislation that the Government didn\u2019t want to talk about, and I want to take a moment to go through those. Those, primarily, are that Kiwis will be paying for their water. We don\u2019t know by how much\u2014the Minister was asked about that in the committee of the whole House and he said it\u2019s up to the entities to decide. That is unforgivable. That level of unassurance to the ratepayers of New Zealand is unforgivable. So too, does this piece of legislation impose a fine and punitive regime, a punishment regime\u2014fines for non-compliance with the rules that the entities will set up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo, in essence, through the passage of this bill, the Government is taking away assets and then it\u2019s forcing Kiwis to pay for the reforms. The Minister spoke quite at length about how, in his view, this is going to remove the liability of debt from councils. But he didn\u2019t mention it\u2019s also removing the assets from councils. He talked about financial independence and separation of balance sheets that these new entities would bring. But what he didn\u2019t talk about is that that could have been a provision provided to councils. That\u2019s where the National Party and the Government differ greatly: we would actually empower councils, those that needed it, with the financial independence that they needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe designs of these bills do not provide enough protection for smaller councils with low rate bases. And I\u2019ve used the example time and time again of Entity I which merges the Canterbury councils and the West Coast councils. Most of the Canterbury councils, I would argue, have very strong balance sheets, have new modern assets and infrastructure; West Coast councils do not. There is a fundamental discrepancy there whereby some councils, some ratepayers, are having to subsidise others. I don\u2019t think either side of the ledger would agree that that is fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThere is no flexibility in the pricing. Again, as I mentioned, we asked the Minister to outline details on pricing. Those details are unavailable. We asked the Minister what liability the Crown would have around compensation for the likes of land that is needed in catchment areas. There are no details available. But I think it\u2019s the penalty regime that will shock New Zealanders the most, and we talked a little bit about it last night in the second reading. There is an extensive enforcement provision laid out within this bill. It includes a fine of $20,000 for breaking a sprinkler ban. Now, we often have hot, dry summers in Canterbury and most gardeners will get their sprinklers out in the evenings. But $20,000 for breaking a sprinkler ban\u2014when you put it in the context that the penalty for most petty thefts in New Zealand is $1,000, it really does, I think, highlight the fact that this Government has its priorities way out of whack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAt the heart of our opposition to the majority of these bills that have passed is the issue of democracy and the lack of transparency. As I said earlier, one of the bills alone attracted 88,000 submissions\u201497 percent in opposition. This one, to be fair, did go through a proper select committee process. They did get 1,900-odd submissions, but they only heard less than 2 percent of them. That is not allowing the voice of New Zealand to have an input on shaping this legislation. And, as we\u2019ve all observed, yet again we\u2019re in urgency. The committee of the whole House process has been truncated because we\u2019re in urgency. There is still overwhelming opposition to these bills\u2014that makes it undemocratic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe have said on this side of the House multiple times that we support the case for change, but we do not believe that this is the solution to it. The National Party has fully intended to overturn this bill if we\u2019re in Government in October. We will do it as soon as practicably possible. We will replace it with what we call \u201CLocal water done well\u201D, with our fundamental principle that we return those assets back to local councils, to the ownership and management of local councils. And yes, where there is a need for some small councils to be supported to maintain their assets, there are provisions to enable that to happen. We oppose this bill in its entirety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce5e671e307c4a75ac2878c14b935e19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce5e671e307c4a75ac2878c14b935e19\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand\u2019s water infrastructure in many places is quite frankly stuffed. This is about broken pipes and waterways, and the National Party may want to repeal these reforms but they don\u2019t have a credible plan to replace it with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe Finance and Expenditure Committee did a really thorough process on this bill. The main areas that I really valued were the changes around stormwater, making sure there\u2019s accountability for the maintenance of waterways; also the mandatory relationship agreements where a lot of the devil in the detail lies; the changes to rural water supplies, which shows that we listen to rural communities; and also the care taken to ensure access and affordability for all New Zealanders. It\u2019s a really great bill. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022978927be05f84642ad4ddf1c82d43945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022978927be05f84642ad4ddf1c82d43945\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Oh wow, what a great bill\u201451 seconds that contribution was. I\u2019m not surprised, because the reality is that if I was a backbencher in the Labour Government at the moment, I\u2019d be reluctant to get up and put my name to this bill as well, because they know that they\u2019re going to be punished in a few weeks on 14 October for legislation exactly like this. It shows that they think they know best\u2014Labour knows best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ERemember the old days when three waters was about water quality and standards? That didn\u2019t go too well, did it, because they got caught out with their false advertising with green sludge coming out of the tap. So much for a Government that stood up for misinformation and disinformation! They are the \u201CGovernment of Misinformation\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EBut, of course, then they pivoted because \u201CThree waters is about a cost of living crisis.\u201D, they called, and only their solution would address the cost of living crisis. Interestingly enough, they had been dragged, kicking and screaming, into the cost of living crisis debate after refusing to acknowledge the pain on many New Zealanders when they got their wallets out. Now, when you listen to the Minister when he talks about three waters, it\u2019s about responding to weather events\u2014that\u2019s the latest. It\u2019s gone from water quality to cost of living and now to responding to weather events. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EIn fact, the reality is that three waters was always a solution looking for a problem, because there\u2019s only one play in this Government\u2019s playbook, and that\u2019s centralisation. Anything they do, they\u2019ll centralise it. Look at the health reforms, look at the polytech reforms, and now look at three waters, because, of course, in their minds, under this failed socialist experiment that will get them kicked out in a few weeks\u2014under socialism\u2014you\u2019ve centralised because Wellington knows best, the beltway knows best. But, of course, on this side of the House, we know that local knows best. That\u2019s why we will repeal and replace the three waters legislation in the first 100 days of a National-ACT Government, because we know that this will not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EToday\u2019s bill is the fourth three waters bill that this Government have brought in under urgency, and that says it all. Every three waters bill they\u2019ve brought into this House has been under urgency. They\u2019ve rushed it through because they know it\u2019s gone down like a cup of cold sick out there in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EIn my electorate of Waimakariri, 95 percent of ratepayers opposed three waters, and, of course, that was in the day when they said to the councils, \u201CYou can opt out.\u201D So Waimakariri District Council went to their ratepayers because the Labour Government told them that if they went and got the consensus from their ratepayers, they could opt out, and 95 percent of ratepayers said no. But Official Information Act request documents revealed it was a legislated all-in, even with the consultation. So this bill does not come to the House in good faith; it comes in bad blood. Again, they\u2019ve misled the public of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EHere we have a bill that will enable and empower these big mega-entities, because, of course, they actually only wanted four of them. But they had to do the flip-flop and the back-down bill to bring it up to 10, because Kieran McAnulty, the Minister who went round all the councils\u2014and they all said, \u201CMr McAnulty: nice guy, wrong party.\u201D\u2014but he knew the backlash. See, Mr McAnulty is a smart guy. He listens to the people on the ground because he knows he needs to listen because his seat will go if he doesn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EHe came back to Wellington and his senior Cabinet Ministers said, \u201CDon\u2019t worry about listening to the public. They don\u2019t know what\u2019s best. We know what\u2019s best.\u201D But, of course, he got them to get to the 10 mega-entities, and now this legislation is passing\u2014the detailed legislation to enable those 10 mega-entities\u2014and, basically, these 10 mega-entities will seize and will steal ratepayer-owned water assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EState theft by stealth, this bill is. It is taking away the hard-earned money from all those ratepayers who\u2019ve paid into their water assets. They are intergenerational water assets, and now, under this bill, those water assets will be taken into these big water entities. All their personal ratepayer information will be forced out of the councils now and into these water entities, and then, in return, the charges will come down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWhat we do know is that unlike councils, who know their local communities and who would be able to be nimble and adapt with water charging based on the level of investment and based on the capacity of the council to respond, these water entities will be a blunt instrument across New Zealand. What will happen for those councils that have diligently invested in good water assets and in good water-quality standards? Their money will be cross-subsidising other areas, and, in return, they will lose ownership of those assets. They will not be accountable to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThere is no return here for the average ratepayer, and that is why National has said very clearly that we will repeal and replace the three waters legislation. I want to give a shout-out to my colleague Simon Watts, who in a few weeks, hopefully, will be the Minister of Local Government. He will restore faith back into councils that, once again, they will be listened to and they will be supported. They won\u2019t be dictated to like they have been under this arrogant Labour Government, which is going to be voted out after only two terms because they\u2019re tired. They\u2019re tired, they\u2019ve run out of ideas, and, quite frankly, when you look at the polls, people have just had enough of being told by this Labour Government what to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESee, on this side of the House, we want to listen to people locally. We want to support them. We want to empower them. We won\u2019t want to have top-down directives that tell them what to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m not surprised that every Labour MP that has got up, time after time, has spoken very briefly, because they won\u2019t take many calls\u2014you watch for the next hour or two. They\u2019ll low-ball it. They\u2019ll hope the voters won\u2019t clip it out on their social media as to why they think that this is a good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe reality is that we\u2019ve gone through quite a legislative process with this bill and the other three three waters bills. Clearly, the public hasn\u2019t been listened to. As my colleague Nicola Grigg has said in her contribution\u2014which I thought was a fantastic contribution that led off for the Opposition this morning\u2014there were tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of submitters that weren\u2019t listened to, because all we are doing here is setting up mega-bureaucratic entities, and you only need to look at the abject failure of the health reforms to see that in setting up these entities, it will not work. Look at the failure of the polytech reforms\u2014it will not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EBut this Government is tone deaf, ploughing on in the view that centralisation is the solution to every issue in New Zealand. In conclusion, I just want to say that National opposes this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022004232276d9d49acb5b0a96dc50ea5fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022004232276d9d49acb5b0a96dc50ea5fc\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, what a diatribe that was. The member for Waimakariri thinks he can slide in here like Steve Parr on Sale of the Century, promising people the money\u2014promising the people of Waimakariri the money\u2014whereas in reality, all they\u2019re going to get is the bag: the bag full of broken promises. One thing the member for Waimakariri did not mention was the people of Oxford and the boil-water notice that exists for them, with their water being offline for six weeks until it\u2019s up to a potable standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why this bill is overdue. It provides new water services entities and legislative tools and arrangements, and they will need to be in place so that they\u2019re fully operational by 1\u00A0July\u00A02024 and 1 July 2026. So it\u2019s a fantastic bill, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002244038aa83cdc4013a93954227defb4c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244038aa83cdc4013a93954227defb4c7\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT agrees there\u2019s a problem with three waters infrastructure and the way it\u2019s delivered and the way it\u2019s maintained. The way three waters has been delivered has actually held up the affordability of land for housing, and it\u2019s also led to sewage overflows and all kinds of disgusting things on the beaches around our major metros. So there\u2019s a problem to be solved, and that problem is: how do we resolve the funding and financing? How do we provide proper oversight and accountability for organisations managing assets on behalf of the public? How do we provide for water services so we can provide more serviced land at an affordable rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s the problem. ACT engaged constructively throughout the three waters reform process, going back to 2020. We talked to farmers and growers; we heard their concerns. We heard from councils who were opposed to the reforms as proposed by this Government, Communities 4 Local Democracy, and other councils. We spoke to people in the local government financing area who described the issues with lending to councils and the fact that many of them do not have adequate revenue collection processes to actually allow them to borrow more. Most of them don\u2019t even have water meters, so they can\u2019t justify taking water service charges from residential and commercial customers. Imagine that: not being able to bill your customers for the services or the products that they use\u2014only in New Zealand. That\u2019s one of the problems that ACT would propose to solve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut what does Government do? They\u2019ve adopted a centralisation agenda. It\u2019s not just three waters. It\u2019\u2019s resource management reform, centralising planning in unelected co-governed planning bodies. It\u2019s Te P\u016Bkenga, trying to get all of the polytechnics, like the one I studied at\u2014Unitec in Auckland\u2014to come under one umbrella, as if a Government department could work out exactly what delivering education services in each community should look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we come to the confiscation of assets. Now, this is the Labour Party that\u2019s made a big deal about returning stolen land and stolen assets through Treaty settlements. But here it brings a bill to the House proposing to steal and confiscate assets\u2014expropriating assets without compensation from local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen they lied to councils: \u201CIt\u2019s voluntary, not compulsory.\u201D Well, it turned out it is compulsory. Then they lied to councils again: \u201CDon\u2019t worry; you\u2019ll be no worse off. There\u2019s $1.5 billion in a fund to make sure councils are no worse off.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226ec3d8ceebe47aaa8c621555a6748ce\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I think that the reference to lying in the House and accusing people of lying to councils is inappropriate and against our rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6745b93e3934bafbfe21d17edd8e2d5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: It is unparliamentary. The member will withdraw and apologise if the member wants to continue on his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244fcacbeae184fba8cd723841d416068\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, however, ACT would certainly contend that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af3cba6bdf404c1eaf342f5b788c44b1\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The member didn\u2019t actually accuse anyone of lying, so I don\u2019\u2019t know who he has to withdraw and apologise to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231acef3993bb4604a531c622062f0154\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will take a seat. I am in the Chair and I have already dealt with that point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f78c1095ba374ab786afb25dabd6a7c6\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Bennett, for leaping to the defence of the ACT Party. Let\u2019s be clear. Labour promised councils they wouldn\u2019t confiscate the assets, then they confiscated them, so, Helen White, I\u2019m not sure how you describe that. Reach to your dictionary or thesaurus. You promised something and then we did something completely different. Labour said they would make sure councils are no worse off, with $1.5 billion to make sure that councils were no worse off financially, then they pulled the money out from under them, and said, \u201CWe\u2019re not giving you that money.\u201D I don\u2019t know what we\u2019d look to in the Oxford dictionary, Helen White. What is the particular word that we would seek to use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a9ba5cff75d47038a4fbdeaeee17ede\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. This is a little contemptuous of a ruling that\u2019s been made, and all such rulings need to be respected in this House, and so does your role, ma\u2019am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280cbbfe640f643d3b090b538fd991fdb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will stay away from continuing down this line. If he wants to finish his speech within the next 5 minutes and 56 seconds, stay away from that line in your debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aead6f04d4b14b6abb23644cbf55abe0\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, it is a debatable matter whether a policy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e70b68e628466abdb60c6675d3dc99\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Accusing a party of lying is not a debatable matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea4db0895ee741539758b0a268d8d45d\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: I have not. I have simply pointed out the facts: what was announced and then what was delivered. They are different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219fe2dc1de1f4f3592d728d3c9d722c9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now continue his speech, but make your points in a different way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277bb7ea5ebef4ebf8d0f69bf83a5e4ac\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Raising a further point of order, I\u2019d like your advice as to whether it\u2019s appropriate to interrupt a member on debatable matters simply to make a point, because I believe that that actually risks causing further disorder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dd95f6bfbd04482a3f386bfff30386c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a robust debate. The member is now at risk of disrespecting me as the Speaker. Continue your speech, but stay away from accusing other parties of lying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1ee1931e8d40a3bdad83c055640d96\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then, I\u2019m not quite sure where to go to, because the three waters reforms have been a litany of broken promises. So let me reach to my thesaurus. What could we say instead of using that word? Well, co-governance, as proposed by this Government as a solution to apparently resolve M\u0101ori rights and interests in fresh water actually, according, to the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, the former Minister\u2014she admitted that there are no rights and interests in three waters assets built after 1840. So the entire premise for introducing co-governance\u201450:50, unelected, undemocratically appointed iwi tribal elites on to co-governance entity boards; there\u2019s no justification for it. Even the former Minister Nanaia Mahuta agreed. The ACT Party would say, drawing from our thesaurus, that that is gaslighting nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we come to funding and financing. Well, the Minister today, Kieran McAnulty, responsible for this bill, tried to claim that even though the bill extinguishes the rights of water entities to undertake partnerships, that joint ventures and council-controlled organisations would allow partnerships to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, you only have to read the bill; refer to the Partnership Law 2019 Act. It says very, very clearly that those types of partnerships are public-private partnerships (PPPs), which allow PPPs or their shareholders to make a profit, and won\u2019t be allowed by this bill. I don\u2019t know what to call it, but it sounds to me like the Minister said one thing but the bill says another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we come to the technical issues. How is it that having been told by submitters all the technical challenges of taking water services assets off councils\u2014who are responsible for land use planning and development consenting\u2014taking the water assets off them, which they should be planning to deliver in order to deliver more serviced land, and then adding a stormwater component, taking the stormwater component off local councils and handing that to the entities\u2014it creates all kinds of implementation risks and issues. Well, instead of resolving them through the bill, as difficult as it could be, the Minister and the Labour Government have simply kicked it down the road to these things called \u201Crelationship agreements\u201D that water service entities will have to enter into with transport agencies, with councils, with those running parks and reserves, for example\u2014kicking it down the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill does not resolve the fundamental problem: how do you deliver more serviced land to enable housing growth so that young Kiwis or people moving to a new town can get a home at an affordable price so that they can choose where they live and they\u2019re not stopped from doing that or unreasonably held up from doing that because of the cost of housing? All of this water infrastructure is only to do one thing: it\u2019s to enable serviced land for housing and business growth. That is all it is for. There is an economic and social benefit to it. If this bill doesn\u2019t solve that problem, what\u2019s the point? It will go in the bin. That\u2019s why ACT will repeal it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what is the alternative? Well, the alternatives have been canvassed as we worked through the bill. How could we deliver new infrastructure to provide for housing growth? How could we maintain assets in an acceptable way so that we don\u2019t have waste-water overflows onto beaches or into rivers? What we could do is allow for voluntary shared services agreements between councils. It\u2019s already working very, very well between Auckland\u2019s Watercare council-controlled organisation and the Waikato District Council. It\u2019s working so well that the Waikato District Council asked the Finance and Expenditure Committee to please let them join the Auckland and Northland water service entity, because they\u2019ve already got a relationship. But no, this Government has its own way of doing things. They\u2019re not going to listen to what\u2019s practical and what works. ACT would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we think about how we fund and finance all of this work, whether it\u2019s $120 billion or $180 billion. Well, what ACT says is that central government should share half the GST back that\u2019s collected on new builds every year, because the Government takes about $2.5 billion in GST on new housing construction activities, keeps it all for itself, and wastes it on goodness knows what. Instead, ACT would say return half of that $1.2 billion to councils around New Zealand. For Auckland it would be around $400 million a year. That would cash flow the borrowing needed to improve the assets, because if you can leverage $400 million into $1.6 million or $2 million with the kind of leveraging that this bill proposes that water service entities will get, then we can do it already\u2014we can do it already. We would also expand the exemption for domestic water suppliers to 30 end users so that rural and small water users are not captured by this enormous regulatory red tape and cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT\u2019s plan would deliver serviced land for housing in an affordable way, not so that new owners are faced with an $85,000 development contribution cost, like those proposing to live and work in Drury south. ACT\u2019s plan would give confidence to business that they can access water at an affordable price, invest in their operations, and invest in their people. ACT\u2019s plan is a recipe for a much better water outcome. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00223d9b572ff347448dac8f379becf9984e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d9b572ff347448dac8f379becf9984e\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, thank you. The Green Party\u2019s position on the programme of change in the water services era is a nuanced one. We supported the Minister\u2019s amendment to this bill, because it does improve the bill and it better integrates the changes that are happening in water services with what is happening with the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the big Resource Management Act reform. We have opposed this bill because we are still fundamentally concerned about the scale of corporatisation that it involved. We supported the Water Services Entities Amendment Bill, because it increased the number of entities from four to 10, so that it had that better connection with local communities that so many submitters and so many councils called for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut the scale of corporatisation here\u2014I\u2019m surprised that the National Party is proposing to repeal the bill, because these corporate entities are exactly the sort of entity that National normally supports, and would have no hesitation about seeking to privatise or partially privatise if\u2014in the unlikely event\u2014it became the Government. So we sought, in earlier bills to have an entrenchment provision, and I rebut what Nicola Grigg said; that was responding to the substantial public concern about water assets needing to remain in public ownership. It was flagged during our alternative view in the select committee report; it was well flagged, it was not done in secret. It\u2019s unfortunate that that was walked back, but we accept that that was the decision of the Parliament. The costs involved in this programme of work are substantial. They have been premised on the principle of balance sheet separation so that there is no association with the councils and the ability of councils to really influence the decisions that the water services entities take on the $150 million to $180 million investment that seems to be needed. And the composition of the regional representative groups with strong representation for mana whenua is part of that distancing from the councils and distancing from the decision makers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThis balance sheet separation has been fundamental to the legislation, but it is something that the Greens dispute. We don\u2019t think that other options were adequately looked at. The Watercare model is performing well in Auckland, with two waters. In Christchurch, I have the benefit of getting clean water from the services delivered very effectively by the Christchurch City Council. Larger councils are quite competent and can do this. Other options, like having the Crown back councils or council-controlled organisations to do more investment\u2014as we\u2019ve seen in Scotland, where the Crown there does back the investment and infrastructure of the Water Commission in Scotland. Those models weren\u2019t adequately explored. The Department of Internal Affairs and its consultants have done a huge amount of work, so the changes have become a bit like a steamroller: they have kept on going. There have been promises made that it will prevent rates blowing out\u2014what will happen if that doesn\u2019t happen? The cost of actually then continuing to implement the reforms, particularly in the storm water space, is something that the Green Party is really concerned with. We want to see a much greater investment in nature-based solutions and we\u2019re concerned that, as more extreme weather events cause more rainfall, more risk of flooding\u2014that engineer-dominated entities will fall back on traditional solutions of pipes, because generally, in the short term, they are cheaper, but not in the long term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe want to see strong Government policy to ensure that we get a movement towards spongy cities, because those investments in spongy cities\u2014in green space\u2014improve city amenity and are cheaper in the long term, and they\u2019re good for our mental health and wellbeing. This is a major change. It will be some time before all of the benefits that have been promoted\u2014whether or not they actually occur. Auckland Council was said to be more efficient at the big unitary model; the costs involved haven\u2019t necessarily borne that out. But the major reason we are opposing this is because it separates stormwater from councils and the key role that councils have in place-making their control over the levers and the planning tools, and the fact that the entities might have relationship agreements and have to work those out with councils and with the managers of roading corridors. All of this creates quite significant transaction cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAnd I think there is a big issue as well\u2014not only the transaction costs, but the increased debt that the balance sheet separation will enable, and we will go on to debate the next bill in terms of consumer protection and efficiency. The scrutiny that the Commerce Commission provides over the levels of debt that the water services entities incur is absolutely critical so that we avoid making those mistakes that have happened with the big private entities in the United Kingdom, and those becoming virtually bankrupt because of the level of debt that they have incurred. Bigger entities tend to go for bigger infrastructure solutions when smaller ones can be just as effective. We need to ensure that there is a diversity of options, particularly in the stormwater space\u2014and not just ones that rely on big pipes. So we\u2019re not supporting this bill; we think that other options should have been investigated more and that this has become a bit of a steamroller.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u00227557e5604e2945af995cfa9b2d051a3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227557e5604e2945af995cfa9b2d051a3f\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101l\u014D e lelei, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to take just a short call on the Water Services Legislation Bill. I\u2019\u2019ll start by saying I understand why the National Party and the Opposition oppose this bill, and that is because this bill looks after all New Zealanders, not just a certain rich few. Currently, we know that what is happening to our pipes needs cleaning up. We know that the status quo cannot continue, and if it does, only the certain rich few will be able to afford clean drinking water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EBut you know what? On this side of the House, the Labour Government are here for all New Zealanders, not just the few, and so on this side of the House we believe to make sure that all New Zealanders can expect to have clean drinking water\u2014that\u2019s right, all New Zealanders. We also believe on this side of the House that with the drains, they shouldn\u2019t be so rundown that they are flooding people\u2019s properties. We want to look after all New Zealanders and make sure that we clean all the pipes up, and that is why this is a good piece of legislation. That is what this Labour Government\u2019s doing, supporting all New Zealanders. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022388c4d045dd844c791da0e0394766da3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022388c4d045dd844c791da0e0394766da3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on the Hon David Bennett for 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00222c8b99cf9dbb4f04a5a3833493d1949f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c8b99cf9dbb4f04a5a3833493d1949f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we\u2019re going to look after all New Zealanders, solve all things for everybody, all at once, all without any costs and all without any implications and all because we\u2019re so perfect and aren\u2019t we lovely? And shouldn\u2019t we all believe in the all-powerful Government of the day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWell, that\u2019s the Labour rhetoric that those members of Parliament have been told, caucus after caucus, by their senior leaders: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about the economy. Don\u2019t worry about your seats. Don\u2019t worry about any of that. It\u2019s going to come right. The economy is going to come right.\u201D Do not listen to Grant Robertson. He\u2019s been feeding you that line all year. It\u2019s time to wake up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa744ba01dc4e6593f82a1c9b9d2d48\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will come back to this particular bill. It\u2019s not a general debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a870c1f1a434716857950525dcd93e7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this bill is for all New Zealanders at all times and to be all-conquering. That\u2019s what the Labour Party is saying, and it is a dream. They are falsifying the future for themselves and they have got reality coming in a few months\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220accc4ce612c4b43bd2a982a6d6bf85c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will come back to this bill. He\u2019s spoken for a minute\u2014not actually about this bill. Come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a570d3c67c047fa8937b73d56172767\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: OK. If we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f118984a9caf4672bcd6e0decf3aada0\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Terisa Ngobi didn\u2019t talk about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229352753568b498da3a482b615a27431\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Yeah. Yes, but if we look at the bill, it is classic Labour Party policy. It is centralisation. It is taking from communities that have actually invested in those assets over time, putting it into one pot and saying that it\u2019s going to solve all the issues that the country faces. That\u2019s the Labour Party\u2019s plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe reality is, first of all, you\u2019re taking from councils that have made good investments. Secondly, they can\u2019t answer the question about how much it will actually cost to do up the really big things. How much will it cost to do up the stormwater in Auckland? They can\u2019t answer that. They refuse to answer that, because they know it\u2019s well in advance of any money that will come from putting all the rural communities that have done well with their water schemes together to pay for those big urban costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258ca78bdb5b64709ac0ed5d01fece79d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Which ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d548f6b3d8a545a7a56d9e7d09b7a64c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Which ones? You ask, and OK, we\u2019ll go through all of the ones that submitted, and many of them are\u2014South Canterbury: in that area, many of those submitted that they had a perfect scheme. Whang\u0101rei was a great example. That member\u2019s from Auckland, he\u2019s in the Greater Auckland water scheme now, and Whang\u0101rei came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and said, \u201COur water scheme is really good. We\u2019ve invested heavily. We don\u2019t need to now cross-subsidise Auckland\u2019s under-investment.\u201D That is what Whang\u0101rei said, and Whang\u0101rei is the council that came in front and did that. So when that member asks what councils submitted and what did they say, well, that\u2019s what they said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThey all said, also, that the Minister came and saw them. He did this glorious tour, you know, around the country and was listening to all their views. But then the legislation was completely the opposite\u2014completely the opposite. Never took any of their views into account. It was false. It was just an attempt to placate those communities. That\u2019s what they were doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis is a symbol of the failures of this Labour Government. It shows all the hallmarks of everything they\u2019ve failed at. It\u2019s late, it\u2019s centralised, it doesn\u2019t work, it\u2019s unfunded, and it\u2019s got no actual direction to it. It is just a wish list on a piece of paper. That\u2019s all it is, and that\u2019s all they\u2019ve got because they don\u2019t know how to do anything. They haven\u2019t delivered one thing in Government apart from destroying the New Zealand economy, and that is the only thing that this Labour government will be known for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis bill is really just an example of what a failure they\u2019ve been. It\u2019s a disaster for water services in New Zealand. It\u2019s never going to see the light of day. It\u2019s going to be reversed in a couple of months\u2019 time. It\u2019s a complete sham, waste of time\u2014whatever you want to call it. At the same time, any real issues in the water scenes of New Zealand haven\u2019t been dealt with by this Government when they should have been dealt with. So there\u2019s no way we\u2019re going to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002264a5719aedbb40ad884d8befbe0f2857\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264a5719aedbb40ad884d8befbe0f2857\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a short call and respond to some of the contrasts we\u2019re seeing between the two major parties here. I listened to Matt Doocey talk about the Waimakariri, and then I googled the Waimakariri. It\u2019s a river that is called \u201Ccold, rushing water\u201D in M\u0101ori\u2014that\u2019s the translation. But immediately I came across a spot called Thompsons on that river and people can\u2019t swim there anymore. My friend in the House gave me pictures which I was looking at of dark water coming out of pipes, quite close by, as I understand it. There are water notices in that region. This is not, as Matt Doocey characterised it, something looking for a problem, etc.; this was a problem. This is a problem for New Zealand. We need to fix the water supplies and the processes in this country, and Labour is the only party that\u2019s going to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022095925f2d695458f822569d9abc36b6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022095925f2d695458f822569d9abc36b6a\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, I once said that water is probably the most unsexy topic we can talk about here in this House, but this is something that we can no longer ignore when we have people who are dying because of polluted waters, when we have people on boil-water notices there is something we need to do about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI sat here and listened to lots and lots of speeches from the other side of the House. Labour has promised this week to teach financial literacy to students; I do think the National Party needs to listen to that as well. The whole point of having balance sheet separation is so that we can increase either the debt or the investment that we put into our water infrastructure. Making sure that if local councils hit their debt ceilings, the only way of collecting more rates is not the way that they\u2019re limited to investing and providing good infrastructure for the rest of New Zealand. Making sure that we can give the basic human right of access to clean, healthy water to New Zealanders is a fundamental job that the Government will have to do, so that\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00220d8a023c7df94400b98a2c278da9c223\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d8a023c7df94400b98a2c278da9c223\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. That was a good example of why we do need financial literacy training, I suppose, but a little bit irrelevant to the actual bill, because what we\u2019ve got here is a terrible piece of legislation. The Government are doing anything they can to distract from this horrible piece of unworkable legislation that will not deliver improved outcomes for New Zealanders. Sadly, we\u2019ve seen, time and again, a Government that will introduce a piece of legislation, take every opportunity to make it longer and more burdensome than it needs to be, and ultimately end up delivering more cost and less benefit for New Zealanders, and this is a clear example of that. It is centralising the water systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EActually, I haven\u2019t heard the other members talk about three waters. That was the name that was given early on in the piece, and I do just want to mention that, because it is about the three waters, and what we\u2019ve seen consistently is strong opposition to the proposals that have been put forward. This Government, despite all of that, have decided that they still know best; they will centralise it all and take over yet another area. Like we\u2019\u2019ve seen with the health sector, like we\u2019ve seen with the polytechnics, centralisation seems to be the only solution this Government has. It\u2019s a typical arrogant approach that you see does not deliver better outcomes for Kiwis, and Kiwis are getting tired of this. They are sick and tired of a Government that does not listen to their voices, does not hear what they have to say, and, ultimately, impacts their lives and their ability to get on and succeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EFortunately, we will repeal and replace this terrible piece of legislation. If we\u2019re fortunate enough to be in on 14 October, it\u2019ll be gone by Christmas. Finally the public will have the opportunity to have confidence again, to have some clarity, to understand that things will be better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccdc2048cc12487bb0151734d630e7d8\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Hope is on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f88b34303c3f4302a706e93a1bfa04b5\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The horizon looks good, and hope is on the way, Mr Simpson\u2014absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo, look, we don\u2019t need to continue speaking on this piece of legislation. It is terrible, but it has taken up too much of this House\u2019s time. As I said, it won\u2019t be in place for too long\u2014we\u2019ll be getting rid of it by Christmas\u2014but, frankly, it just epitomises this Government\u2019s inability to deliver better outcomes, as you\u2019ve seen time and time again, legislation after legislation coming through and not improving New Zealanders\u2019 lives. National will get New Zealand back on track, and it is only a few short weeks to wait. So we wholeheartedly oppose this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b396192f8e0940d9896cd81f822f0ceb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b396192f8e0940d9896cd81f822f0ceb\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It gives me pleasure to stand and take a short call on this piece of legislation, the Water Services Legislation Bill, which we have heard the rationale for. Four people died in Havelock North from contaminated water, from campylobacter poisoning that was completely predictable and preventable. Many thousands of people were made sick and many still live with the impact on their lives and will do for the rest of their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThis is wholly unacceptable in New Zealand today. The National Party, though? Perfectly fine by them. A boil-water notice is currently in place in Oxford. We\u2019ve heard about how fantastic things are in Waimakariri\u2014they\u2019re not. There\u2019s a boil-water notice in place currently, as we speak, in Waimakariri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI support this legislation. It will save the ratepayers in Christchurch City $2,680 at a minimum, and in Canterbury $4,780. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002223b0206b97a6458cbcc244455d7ae28f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Water Services Legislation Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000253\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022eab6e53d6d4a4c94a514eac3ebd0145b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eab6e53d6d4a4c94a514eac3ebd0145b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225226f8d40af14837b5077925e7b46845\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c9591057847e48eda181cdf392682e7e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002278f6446e629a4be79b0c5a32913020f5\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002287c772746b5d4a3cb075cef7c8ef5b67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287c772746b5d4a3cb075cef7c8ef5b67\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. Members, we come now to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002274a4e678654249909e67d5dc71534b92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274a4e678654249909e67d5dc71534b92\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb0e2e366be149d9be2d856b828e2ff2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb0e2e366be149d9be2d856b828e2ff2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Are there any objections? There is none. The question is that Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022056b6b3f641641ec8f01924b453f0c1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022056b6b3f641641ec8f01924b453f0c1d\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It is a pleasure to speak on the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. This is, as you will know, something we don\u2019t support, although we did support the bill through the select committee process to ensure that it got through with its amendments. But we don\u2019t support the bill, as I said. We think it goes too far, and, actually, it doesn\u2019t really address the issues that we have at hand, which are the efficient processing of permits, etc. There\u2019s a heck of a lot in in this bill around iwi engagement and reports and so on, and little at all about other engagement with the community. As we know, mining does have an environmental footprint. Actually, in my experience, the mining sector does a very good job of managing its effects, and, in fact, the restoration of mines that I\u2019ve seen has been really fantastic, in some cases returning them to a better state than they were before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut I would just like to ask the Minister: what was the rationale to single out iwi and hap\u016B but not other groups? It seems like they have been elevated to a position where their view carries more weight than others, when the environment, in fact, belongs to us all. This isn\u2019t on iwi- or hap\u016B-owned land; this is just land in general. So I would appreciate an answer to that if I could get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s actually quite long on iwi engagement reports and how they must be drafted etc. So what is the rationale behind that, when there\u2019s no requirement to report on engagement with the community at a similar level and in similar detail as there has been for iwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022484986a64601479ba1d118773c2b75a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022484986a64601479ba1d118773c2b75a2\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s often during the committee stage, you are reflecting back to the select committee process, and sometimes with so many bills going through the House you forget what this is about. I think one of the questions that I actually had in terms of the weight that my colleague Stuart Smith talked about, in terms of the engagement with iwi and hap\u016B, in Part 2, clause 11, where it\u2019s amending new section 29C where it talks about where the applicant is a previous or current permit holder, their engagement with iwi and hap\u016B will actually be given due consideration. I\u2019m trying to figure out how much of an engagement that that is, whether it is actually a meeting with the iwi and hap\u016B to say that their interest in this particular activity is enough, or whether it has to be something a little bit more formal and actually stipulating exactly what they are planning. I\u2019m sort of wondering if the Minister could perhaps give us a little bit of guidance on that school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe other aspect of it is that where a lot of countries are looking at even incentivising exploration in their countries to even provide subsidies to mining companies to actually come into their country\u2014and the reason I say that is because we have moved on from just powering up our heaters with coal or wood, but you know, technology requires a lot of minerals. Even electric vehicles (EV) have a lot of minerals that are actually being used. Even wind turbines require\u2014actually, I think it is something like 220 tonnes of coal to make a particular wind turbine. So when the Minister actually talks about the reason this bill was introduced in the House was because of our commitment to climate change, I sort of wonder whether we are actually not thinking about the full picture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI think, when you want to subsidise Tesla cars, for example, when you know drivers of EVs are incentivised to actually move to EVs rather than traditional motor vehicle and transport\u2014but the materials that are actually required for manufacturing those EVs actually require a lot of mining. Sometimes I think that incentivising people to mine those minerals in New Zealand, we may do better in terms of our climate change commitment, because we can actually control the emissions and put regulations in place so that our mining companies are responsible. Whereas we are importing goods that have been manufactured in other countries where we can\u2019t actually control the mining of those minerals, and we are importing dirty coal, for example. We\u2019ve actually talked about that in this House before. So I\u2019m wondering whether the Minister had actually given thought to our trade partners in the way that they incentivise mining, whilst this bill basically disincentives mining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3f5fe794eff4933878d90c5f504f813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3f5fe794eff4933878d90c5f504f813\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, the bill proposes to amend the purpose of the Crown Minerals Act\u2014to change the purpose, which is \u201Cto promote prospecting for, exploration \u2026 and [mining] of Crown owned minerals for the benefit of New Zealand.\u201D It seems that the purpose of this Labour Government, as expressed through this bill, is to undermine the business opportunities that lead to economic and social benefits for New Zealanders\u2014as a result of extracting and turning our natural resources into things that people use and consume or that New Zealand manufacturers can export and sell overseas to other users and consumers, who will pay New Zealand money for the benefit of the products that we extract here; add value to here, and then sell. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s remarkable that a Government, at a time where New Zealand\u2019s balance of payments deficit has never been higher\u2014it hasn\u2019t been this high in terms of the cash received from selling things overseas compared to the amount of cash New Zealanders have spent buying things overseas; the difference has never been higher. New Zealand is borrowing and spending, as a nation\u2014led by this Government\u2014much more than we are earning in foreign exchange. And yet, Minister, at a time when you would think a New Zealand Government would be doing everything in its power to promote the extraction, recovery, processing, adding value to minerals and resources that the Crown owns and that the private sector is willing to add value to\u2014why wouldn\u2019t the Crown want to promote that at this time? On what basis would a Government seek to undermine the development of these resources and to reduce the potential that by promoting mining and by promoting the recovery of minerals we could actually help to restore some of the economic losses that New Zealand has suffered in the past few years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, why? Please explain, why the change from \u201Cpromote\u201D to \u201Cmanage\u201D? Is it because this Government doesn\u2019t really believe that New Zealand can play its part when it comes to climate change? There are many, many businesses\u2014many mining companies who I have spoken to and their staff, their engineers, their scientists, who are passionate about restoring the environment as they go, delivering better indigenous biodiversity outcomes from some of the most fantastic mining and resource development operations in New Zealand, whether it\u2019s OceanaGold\u2019s Globe Progress Mine in Reefton, or others. They\u2019ve said \u201CFor goodness\u2019 sake, Simon, please provide a simple pathway. If you promote resource recovery in New Zealand, you\u2019ll put us on a level playing field with our competitors or even our fellow engineers and scientists and mining geologists and all of the people who operate the equipment. You\u2019ll put us on a level playing field. We don\u2019t want to have to uproot our families and go and live in Australia; we\u2019d prefer to stay here in New Zealand\u201D. Minister, that\u2019s what they say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut it seems like this Government wishes to reduce that opportunity to live and work in New Zealand, to generate high-paid jobs in the regions and, actually, through mining minerals, whether it be gold or silver or platinum, titanium\u2014any of the other rare earth elements that go into the equipment, whether it\u2019s computer chips, whether it\u2019s satellites, whether it\u2019s batteries. Whatever it is, the world needs these minerals. They\u2019re only found in a few places, Minister, and they\u2019re found in only a few places because of the history of the Earth\u2019s development from a geological perspective and a tectonic perspective. The minerals bubble up from the Earth\u2019s crusts, and they\u2019re found in very limited deposits. That\u2019s why it\u2019s important that a Government does promote their exploration and mining so that we can get the benefit out of them, because if a Government won\u2019t promote it, they\u2019re often very, very difficult to get access to and make something of. So, Minister, will you explain why the change in term from \u201Cpromote\u201D to \u201Cmanage\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002279fa50b2218943bd8613872e68335c67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279fa50b2218943bd8613872e68335c67\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s a couple of questions in the speeches that we\u2019ve heard that I\u2019d like to address. The first is around the why and the changes to the provisions around engagement with iwi and hap\u016B. So the 2013 amendments to the Crown Minerals Act introduced obligations for tier 1 permit and licence holders to report annually on the engagement with iwi and hap\u016B. This was a change that was introduced by the then National Government to do that. However, what has become evident to us since we came into Government\u2014and in the time that I\u2019ve been the Minister of Energy and Resources\u2014is that that engagement and the quality of it was highly variable. So while there was a requirement that was introduced under the 2013 changes to the primary legislation, that wasn\u2019t occurring. So the changes that are in here around what form that engagement should take, the reporting requirements, and being more explicit about how that relationship needs to be conducted\u2014that is the purpose of the changes that we\u2019re seeing in this amendment here. I think it is fair to say that this is an industry that has some way to go in its journey and its engagement with iwi and hap\u016B and what a 21st century relationship looks like, and this Act will provide a framework around how that can work, and I think the reporting requirements will be absolutely critical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI did hear in one of the speeches\u2014I can\u2019t remember which; I think it was from one of the National Party members\u2014the disinformation repeated about the record imports of coal that New Zealand is experiencing. I\u2019d just like to point out to that member that she can celebrate the fact that we\u2019re in a 32-year low in the importation of coal in New Zealand, and that largely is because this is a Government that has a plan around what the decarbonisation of our economy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ecd03d6274f423892292fa2415fe0c9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Imported more coal over the last six years than ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c80a28a407b24613971a015db78c161e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and what decarbonisation looks like. So while we hear members yelling \u201Cmore coal\u201D, I invite them to look at the facts and not repeat disinformation. A 32-year low is something that I celebrate, and I think that many New Zealanders should celebrate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022111b1d5330294c2eb4c72a76620d6318\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: What was it two years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ddfb6c3f6b4b3aac33b484555a0593\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was not two years ago; it\u2019s this year. And, of course, the correlating fact is record-high levels of renewable energy production that are occurring in the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe ACT member asked about why\u2014the purpose for the change. Why are we changing to the more benign position in the purpose statement of the Act? Before anyone thinks the sky is going to fall in in terms of this change to a more neutral position, I think it\u2019s really important for members to understand that the Crown Minerals Act is a piece of legislation under which statutory decisions need to be made, whether they\u2019re delegated or made by a Minister. So, therefore, the purpose statement is incredibly important in terms of directing those statutory decisions. But, of course, that purpose statement was only changed in 2013 by the then National government, so it\u2019s been five years of its time in Government, actually, of nine\u2014with the more benign position that we\u2019re reverting to, and permits were able to be issued. What this does is it takes the purpose statement that we\u2019re looking at under these amendments\u2014takes it back to that benign position so it does not have to be the case that the \u201Cpromote\u201D is the primary consideration that has to be taken into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOf course, we will be able to issue permits for all the kinds of mining activities that the member was outlining in terms of the critical materials that are going to be absolutely essential for our decarbonisation journey as a country, for those minerals that we will need for our wind turbines; that we will need for our electric vehicles; that we will need for emerging battery technologies. There is no reason why decisions to grant those permits cannot still be made, and as I said, the previous National-ACT Government worked under a regime for five of its nine years. So if it was so important to that side of the House, it took them five years to make that change when they were in Government\u2014clearly it wasn\u2019t the deciding factor. And in fact, it was after the change to the purpose statement of the Act actually under the previous Government that fewer offshore block offer permits were taken up\u2014fewer offshore oil and gas permits were taken up. It wasn\u2019t about the purpose statement of the Act; it was that there weren\u2019t economic opportunities to be explored there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo I think we need to keep in perspective the changes that we\u2019re making. This is an important part of how we make sure that our legislation framework is pointing us in the direction of how it is that we do fit in with what the world is doing. New Zealand is not an outlier here. We have the International Energy Agency who is pointing to the kinds of changes that countries need to make, and New Zealand is seen as very much fitting the kind of decarbonisation journey that the world needs to go on. This is a tool, but it still will allow for the kinds of activities we need in respect to Crown minerals that New Zealand needs into its future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00220bc78e6f12bf4adfa69f7c0ffdcb6457\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bc78e6f12bf4adfa69f7c0ffdcb6457\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just wondering if the Minister could elaborate on one of her comments she made before, and just let us know how much coal was imported last year and what record low does that compare to? So when she says \u201Cit\u2019s a record low\u201D, what year is she comparing it to? How much was imported last year and then what year is she comparing that to in terms of \u201Crecord low\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022144b22a8ea9d4dd68ddc1ca8aed7c90c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022144b22a8ea9d4dd68ddc1ca8aed7c90c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Less coal was burnt in the last three months of 2022 than in any other quarter since December 1990. I guess, when you\u2019re talking about a 32-year low and 2022 is the year, it would make sense that 1990 was the date that you\u2019d be using there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThat September 2022 quarter saw just 426,000 tonnes of coals burnt for industry process or electricity generation, so that\u2019s the quantum we\u2019re talking about. But of course, this is a situation where we do need to continue to phase out coal in the economy and that is exactly what our Government is doing. What we have done is we have set an end date for the fact that we will be able to burn coal for industrial or process heat and that is exactly why we are partnering with industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut I would like to bring that member back to what we are debating here in this bill. This is about the New Zealand Crown Minerals Act. This is about how it is we grant permits for New Zealand extraction. So while I\u2019m happy to act\u2014as probably what she could have got off Google, in terms of what those dates in tonnages of imports looked like\u2014what this is about is the regime for how it is that we administer the New Zealand Crown mineral estate. What the member is asking about is coal imports, but what I am pleased to report to the House is a 32-year low in the burning of coal in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002299894dd54c2f4d39909c4e4f5e3df1e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299894dd54c2f4d39909c4e4f5e3df1e6\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, thank you\u2014a fascinating insight! And just to bring to your attention, during a debate on the former bill, a Labour MP also used Google to access information during the debate. So this is across the House, the use of information technology, and I\u2019m sure the Minister would welcome that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, a couple of things: you have raised the issue of record low coal imports, and we assume that relates to a reduction in the need to consume coal for energy and electricity production. So I would always be interested, because you have introduced it into the debate, in how much of that is related to the fact that we\u2019ve had an extraordinarily wet year and that the hydro dams are currently 110 percent full.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c9e4400f83449e9a336f6696ef5522\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I would like the member to come back to a question that\u2019s within the scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a39a7c216bd4b03a56aae88800c906e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly. Well, I shall then. The Minister has raised the issue of critical minerals. The Minister has identified that the minerals that have been mentioned, whether they\u2019re gold, silver, platinum, titanium, selenium, which is used as an agricultural input\u2014all kinds of minerals are available in New Zealand. But in other jurisdictions, Minister\u2014like Australia, for example, the UK, the US, and Canada\u2014they\u2019ve identified a list of critical minerals. Now, in the debate previously in response to a question, you mentioned critical minerals. Minister, these other jurisdictions have identified a critical minerals list that would help a Government agency making decisions about permit applications and how they are viewed against whether the minerals that are proposed to be extracted are critical or not. And there are a whole lot of minerals that only exist in a few places around the world. Rare earth elements, for example, Minister\u2014they go into batteries, they go into electronics, they\u2019re absolutely vital for satellite communications, cell phone communications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, what progress has this Government made on a critical minerals list? I understand it\u2019s on the work programme. And how will the criticality of minerals be given a weighting when applications, in terms of clause 5, \u201CSection 5 amended (Functions of Minister)\u201D, when a Minister is weighing up permit applications and whether they should be approved? Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002246466a5efe1a4900b6af3a3a3ba51cfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246466a5efe1a4900b6af3a3a3ba51cfa\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, Simon Court makes a very good point, and I think that it\u2019s well worth exploring, because what we have seen internationally has been a reluctance in the developed world to mine and to process minerals within their own borders. They have effectively exported that mining and the processing of those elements and minerals that are vital for a transition to low emissions to places like China where actually the labour laws are very scant, at best. In fact, the American President, Joe Biden, passed an executive order which effectively made it that any products that come from Xinjiang in China would be required to have an assurance that no forced labour was used in the making of those materials. And for the Minister\u2019s benefit, if she\u2019s not aware, over 70 percent of the world\u2019s polysilicon is actually processed in Xinjiang and made into polysilicon ingots. Sometimes it\u2019s further processed and made into the wafers, and in other cases it\u2019s exported to other nations to be made into those wafers. But what often happens is, in the step before that, some polysilicon goes into Xinjiang and is then blended with the material being processed there. So, effectively, if the solar panels have polysilicon in them, and polysilicon for other uses, it\u2019s pretty hard to ascertain whether it came from that country with forced labour and where forced labour may have been involved in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve asked questions about this, but I get the answer that, \u201CWell, we\u2019ve got forced labour regulations.\u201D Well, the Americans did too, but the President has gone another step\u2014a significant one step further. It won\u2019t cover it all, for the reasons I just outlined, but did the Minister put any thought into that when she was having this bill drafted and the instructions to the officials and the drafters? Because it appears to me this does make it more difficult. This does slow it down. It makes it more likely that the rare earth elements, as Simon Court mentioned, and other minerals that we use in everyday life now, are not just used\u2014I will cover this further in my third reading speech, but it\u2019s surprising where some of these minerals are used in products that people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b553e5bddb41ad8ca89e83ae64c37f\u0022\u003EHon Jo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: The question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2f10fc1d34a4c20a15d3a7ade0d9599\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014would not understand. I think someone\u2019s trying to be a chair over there, by the sound of things\u2014I distinctly heard that, but anyway. So I\u2019d really like to know if the Minister did take that into consideration. We did hear from her previous contribution\u2014we now know what the Minister does in her spare time: she watches back episodes of Yes Minister. There was a very good impression of Sir Humphrey with the answer that she gave to my colleague Erica Stanford, and I thought that was quite good, actually, almost an Academy Award performance. But the Minister, if she could just come back with those answers, that\u2019d be much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI have another question as well. Under clause 14 we will replace section 41(6) with \u201C(6) Before mining granting consent, the Minister must be satisfied that the transferee is highly likely to be able to comply with\u2014(a) the conditions of, and give proper effect to, the permit; and (b) in the case of a permit as defined in section 89D, the relevant obligations in subparts 2 and 3 of Part 1B.\u201D Well, aren\u2019t they just required to meet those things? Why is it that \u201Cthe Minister must be satisfied\u201D? Has that been outlined anywhere else in legislation around mining or any other activities, that they \u201Cmust be satisfied\u201D? And is \u201Cmust be satisfied\u201D a high enough bar to achieve whatever it was that the Minister was trying to achieve from that particular clause, or was that not one that she actually insisted on? Is that just one that came up? Where was the legislative gap that required clause 14 to be inserted into this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022881dddc4e02b4f89ac75eea59a4008a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022881dddc4e02b4f89ac75eea59a4008a3\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I want to come back to clause 5, \u201CSection 5 amended (Functions of Minister)\u201D. Because right now, as the Minister of Energy and Resources, you would have the most current and up-to-date experience with the functions of the Minister exercised under this Act. So Minister, I want to ask\u2014when it comes to \u201CThe Minister has the following functions\u201D in the current Act, this bill proposed to modify section 5(a). So instead of the functions of the Minister are \u201Cto attract permit applications [for Crown mineral extraction], including by way of public tender\u201D\u2014in other words, a Minister to act as an advocate; a business development function for Government. Imagine that. Instead of the Minister acting in that role trying to drum up more business, the Minister will instead be required, \u201Cfrom time to time [to] offer permits for application\u201D. \u201CFrom time to time\u201D. So instead of \u201Cto attract permit applications\u201D\u2014which sounds like business development; getting New Zealand going\u2014\u201Cit\u2019s, from time to time, offer permits for application\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo Minister, I\u2019m interested. I\u2019m sure those who might want to take part in resource development in New Zealand or invest in resource development are interested. I\u2019m sure the engineers, the scientists, the geologists, all the digger drivers, all the jumbo operators\u2014everybody who works in mining in New Zealand\u2014would be interested whether the Minister considers what times \u201Ctime to time\u201D covers. Does it mean annually? Does it mean every few years? Does it mean when the Minister wants to announce something and so goes somewhere to a small town\u2014maybe on an election campaign\u2014and announces this is now the time we\u2019ll open applications for permits? What is this \u201Ctime to time\u201D, Minister; and on what basis will \u201Cfrom time to time\u201D permit applications be made available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBecause having all of this power delegated to the Minister to essentially handbrake\u2014essentially throw sawdust into the transmission of\u2014a vital economic activity, which is resource development, Minister\u2014if it\u2019s not a priority for this Minister or a future Minister, \u201Ctime to time\u201D could mean, well, almost never. Because when you combine the purpose to be amended, with \u201Cpromote\u201D gone, \u201Cmanage\u201D in; and then \u201Cattracting permit applications\u201D gone. No more business development, no more New Zealand open for business. But \u201Cfrom time to time\u201D we might make a permit application process available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat really sounds like this Government is proposing to slowly strangle the life out of resource development\u2014out of the gold mining, out of all of that other valuable extraction that goes on in New Zealand right now. In fact, I understand that gold exports to Australia are only second after wine in terms of their value\u2014only second after wine. Who knew that New Zealand\u2019s second-largest export to Australia is gold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EYet, this Minister doesn\u2019t really seem to have provided confidence to the industry, to the towns where these activities take place, to all of supporting manufacturing sector that supports mining activities around New Zealand, whether it\u2019s in Otago or Coromandel; Waih\u012B or on the West Coast of the South Island; or Waikato, for example, where they do coal mining; or Port Waikato, where they recover and mine ironsand at Tah\u0101roa and turn it into steel at Glenbrook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, \u201Cfrom time to time\u201D sounds like, \u201Cwhen the Minister gets around to it\u201D, and what this Government have signalled is that they\u2019re not really interested in getting around to helping business, unless it involves handing out money for green projects like an electric arc furnace here or money for a wood-fired boiler somewhere else in order to get some headlines. So Minister, would you explain what you think the implications are of switching from \u201Cattract\u201D to \u201Ctime to time\u201D; and what criteria you would make, or a Minister would make, to determine when the time is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00220b35dcab2b6e47a9b98d23134a0ea7b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b35dcab2b6e47a9b98d23134a0ea7b3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E By my count, there\u2019s probably three areas of questions that are currently under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EFirst of all, there was a question from the member that\u2019s just taken a seat, Simon Court, in an earlier call around the work programme in terms of the critical minerals list. As the member has rightly identified, this is work that our Government currently has under way and it is work that is progressing. It is work that a future Labour Government, after the election, will certainly be looking to further progress. It\u2019s been a priority for us. We established this programme of work under our Government. It\u2019s not work that was under way when we came into Government, so it\u2019s work that we have been able to progress there anyway. Not that that is particularly relevant to the legislation that we have in front of us. It isn\u2019t seeking to make any changes that would impact on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe second line of questioning\u2014I\u2019ll go through an order of the clauses that have been brought up on the bill. So there\u2019s clause 5, which the member that\u2019s just taken his seat has asked around the impact of section 5 and how that will operate. Well, section 5, as it is in the primary legislation, in the Crown Minerals Act, currently requires the Minister to \u201Cattract permit applications, including by way of public tender\u201D. This is interpreted in the minerals programme as an expectation that there will usually be an annual petroleum exploration permit round or a block offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo if you put it together, there\u2019s been three tranches of Crown Minerals Act (CMA) reform. Of course, we made the initial tranche 1 changes that needed to be made immediately after we made the decision to end offering offshore oil and gas exploration permits. That was the immediate change, and the commitment was that we would go through a fuller process for the longer-term changes that needed to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo the clause the member is talking about in his talk about gold isn\u2019t really relevant, because this is about the interaction that is there in terms of the block offer or the petroleum exploration permit round and the interaction there. Clause 5 of the bill alters the function of the Minister from \u201Cattracting permit applications, including by way of public tender\u201D to \u201Cfrom time to time to offer permits for application by public tender\u201D. This is done to remove the expectation that there will be that annual block offer as a matter of course. It will enable more discretion in the timing and frequency of future block offers, if there were to be any. Because, as the member will know, prior to the changes that we made under the petroleum programme, there was the expectation of the annual round of block offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other clause of the bill that there has been some questions about, of course, is clause 14 of the bill and this is around decommissioning. So when I say \u201Ctranche 3\u201D, this is what we would formally call \u201Ctranche 2\u201D of the changes to the CMA but we did do the immediate work that we needed to do around decommissioning. This was really in the wake. We\u2019ve made two changes around decommissioning. There was a hole that we had to plug when we immediately came into Government around the provision of permits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe found, when we came into Government, there was a big wide open door that had been left by the previous Government, which resulted in the taxpayers of New Zealand having to pick up a bill of hundreds of millions of dollars for decommissioning of a project that they never should have had. This was the responsibility of the permit holder, but adequate protection for taxpayers had not been put into previous changes of the legislation. So we brought changes to the House to protect the taxpayers. This is further strengthening those decommissioning provisions that need to be there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the holes that was left was actually the ability of a transfer of a permit to have the same level of scrutiny as the granting of a new permit in terms of their ability to pay for their decommissioning. I think everyone should\u2014most right-minded people would\u2014agree that if someone is coming in to do business in New Zealand by way of extraction, they have the ability to actually finish the process and pay for their own decommissioning and not leave the taxpayers of New Zealand holding that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo this is further strengthening around those provisions there. It was made for consistency with other provisions that are being made with this bill, just to make sure we\u2019ve got that belts and braces to the protection of New Zealand taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00228cd761d7b7e14bfcb6640486fe99fd6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cd761d7b7e14bfcb6640486fe99fd6d\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister a question in relation to an answer that she gave earlier to a question from my colleague. She mentioned that New Zealand had record low coal importation in relation to the climate change commitments that we were actually talking about earlier. I wonder whether the Minister could actually reflect on that answer and, please, tell me whether the record low coal importation in the last quarter of last year that she quoted was because New Zealand has in fact had record high rain and water, which literally means that our hydro lakes are full and we didn\u2019t have to actually import extra coal\u2014and that in relation to the record high coal importation of previous years, for example, I think in 2020 there were more than a million tonnes of coal that were imported, and in 2021 it was close to 2 million tonnes of coal that were imported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWhat that extraction in foreign countries relates to in terms of climate change pollution and emissions and the fact that they have to be shipped to New Zealand to power our plant in Huntly\u2014you know, considering the fact that the Labour Party\u2019s backbone is the union\u2014is it in Blackpool?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228502baa338a3495f9f534f44c582c438\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Blackball.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a74c775b6024adc8884eddf9d43e42f\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Blackball. That was actually started by the mining towns and the unions who represented those miners\u2014whether she considers that perhaps having a reserve that is mined in New Zealand will be better in terms of carbon emissions versus what we actually import from overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229aaa37642c3c4bd48d1a891bfa651f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aaa37642c3c4bd48d1a891bfa651f9e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very quick call here to point out that the issues being raised are completely out of scope. This is about the regime and very specific changes that we are making around the New Zealand Crown minerals regime and the way in which that is administered in New Zealand. The member Melissa Lee is asking about importation. That is out of scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut what I will point out to that member\u2014I probably did answer a question and point out that it was beyond what we doing in this bill, but I pointed out the fact that a 32-year loan and the burning of coal in New Zealand was something that I celebrate. What we do also know is that the year before that, it was because of the failure of our gas to provide electricity to New Zealand. It wasn\u2019t so much just the hydro levels; it was also the fact that there were outages in our gas infrastructure as well, which to me points to the need of why we do need to look at how security of supply looks like in the 21st century in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis bill\u2014bringing it back to the bill, Mr Chairman\u2014is actually about setting up the regime for the 21st century. And I\u2019d also like to point that member to the fact that we have a union movement, given she\u2019s so concerned about it, in New Zealand that is utterly concerned with what a just transition for its workforce looks like. It is a union movement that is engaged in the jobs of the future, and making sure that we are putting in the effort to do that. It\u2019s why we saw our mining union attend the launch of the announcement around New Zealand Steel moving from coal to electrification. They celebrate that move because they know that jobs in the future need to be protected, and if we stand by and wait for cliffs, that will not happen and we are not a Government that are prepared to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae3467acd442407fab013cd75b90a127\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae3467acd442407fab013cd75b90a127\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. That was a fascinating insight into the workings of the Minister\u2019s mind! I want to come back to the bill, Minister. Clause 14 amends section 41, the \u201CTransfer of interest in permit\u201D. You made a good point: that it\u2019s important that an operator in the oil and gas industry decommissions a well, decommissions offshore equipment\u2014whether it\u2019s on the sea floor or whether it\u2019s a rig\u2014that they fulfil their obligations to their community and to the environment by making sure that all of those hazards are mitigated, as far as is practical. So it is fair enough that a Minister would have decision making as to whether the transferee is highly likely to comply with the conditions of the permit, particularly when it comes to decommissioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, you refer to\u2014without using the words, I understand\u2014the \u201CTui problem\u201D, which is where an operator sold its interests in a New Zealand business to an overseas company, which then defaulted on its obligations. Minister, I understand that that business has since been sold and that the new owner has in fact made a commitment to fulfil a great proportion of the obligations to decommission and clean up in addition to what the Crown has had to contribute. But that must surely be a very, very rare occurrence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, in previous amendments to the Crown Minerals Act that you referred to and which this clause 14 further amends, you make the point that a much more rigorous regime has been put in place. But, Minister, isn\u2019t it correct that the regime is now so onerous that it imposes retrospective penalties on directors and on companies, including jail time, if they fail to meet their decommissioning obligations\u2014that it has essentially sterilised interests in oil and gas development in New Zealand? And that even if a company was to sell its oil and gas interests as a going concern, still pumping oil and condensate from New Zealand\u2019s reservoirs, whether its offshore or onshore Taranaki, still getting gas out, supplying it to New Zealand consumers, including businesses and manufacturers\u2014even if they sold their business as a going concern with an existing revue stream, the new owner of the business, even if they decommissioned to the requirements of the permit, the Minister could still insist that the sellers before, the directors of the company that originally owned it, were still liable for any rats and mice or potentially a very, very large bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EHasn\u2019t that completely sterilised interests in investing in New Zealand oil and gas? And doesn\u2019t this section 41 amended by clause 14 of this bill, \u201CTransfer of interest in a permit\u201D, further undermine the willingness of international and local investors to actually get our energy out of the ground and supply it to businesses that need it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd24e855318d48e18b9619a57e34ecf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd24e855318d48e18b9619a57e34ecf6\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022942107b9a0004e308040d867bcd4b4e4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9604b76a504418c93b31a567c23d38b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9604b76a504418c93b31a567c23d38b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 415 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225fa94f7f505b48f08ad1e65669c402f2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000322\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224e28f529552f48be9085d4cdf77e9541\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e28f529552f48be9085d4cdf77e9541\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000324\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000325\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000326\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002208dc4ca466fb4e7f9fd899249caca5b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208dc4ca466fb4e7f9fd899249caca5b0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee has considered the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022188ad5e3c33b4b73bcf1d0748847bd78\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000328\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002209ce339e5d754206bc84ab97895a0ae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209ce339e5d754206bc84ab97895a0ae7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The Crown Minerals Amendment Bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c26905bf6b449d7a768cfc862102d18\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002247d2a781bb86450194352cd7ddc14a0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247d2a781bb86450194352cd7ddc14a0b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220e06fdd64be47a88cce26730039c80c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b506d4580914e26bccf52c012fa495a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOur Government is committed to transitioning New Zealand to a low-emissions economy. New Zealand has targets to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions with carbon emissions to reach net zero by 2050. We have set a target of 100 percent renewable electricity generation by 2030. On 9 August, I announced that the Government would consult on an ambitious programme of work for this transition\u2014over five streams of energy policy. I want to ensure that the legislation for our Crown minerals is keeping up with the times, and that\u2019s why I initiated the Crown Minerals Act review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere have already been shifts in how the regime operates as a result of the review. The 2018 tranche 1 amendments put an end to offshore petroleum exploration permitting. The 2020-2021 tranche 2 amendments ensured that petroleum decommissioning obligations sit with the people and companies that profited from these resources and not the taxpayers of New Zealand. This bill concludes tranche 2 of the Crown minerals review by making important incremental amendments while reform in the broader regulatory framework is under way, such as in the resource management system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EA big part of bringing the Crown Minerals Act up to date is to ensure that it is consistent with our push to net zero. The Government recognises the continued importance of petroleum throughout the transition. We also need other minerals for the roading infrastructure and for the clean technologies in our future. But the Crown Minerals Act is out of step with our wider policy settings to get us to net zero. The promotional intent of the Act currently requires the Minister to take certain steps to promote development of our mineral resources, and this includes the expectation that we run an annual block offer for petroleum permits. This is expected regardless of whether it is in the best long-term interests of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EPart 1 of the bill proposes changes to enhance flexibility in the way we manage our petroleum and minerals. It would remove that promotional intent to make the Crown Minerals Act neutral so that the development can be promoted where there is a need and minimised where there is not. With these changes in place, the Crown Minerals Act would be better aligned with wider policy settings and this would no longer be in conflict with the wider settings for a net zero transition. The bill strikes that balance by ensuring that continued investment and security of supply for fossil fuels are not put at risk during the transition. But the bill also keeps clear the path for development of other minerals into the future should there be a need, such as for clean-tech minerals used in renewable energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill makes changes to improve permit holder engagement with iwi and hap\u016B, extending existing requirements that have been in place since 2013. Iwi and hap\u016B reported that engagement quality is highly variable and does not always respect or reflect understanding for their authority, mana, and expertise in relation to the natural environment and their local communities. In part, this is because the Crown\u2019s expectation for engagement under the Crown Minerals Act was unclear. The proposed changes will bring more clarity to iwi and hap\u016B and other stakeholders about how engagement will be reported and how feedback from iwi and hap\u016B can inform future allocation under the Crown Minerals Act. I expect to see an improvement in permit holder engagement with iwi and hap\u016B because of these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill also makes decommissioning-related clarification to ensure that there is no doubt over the interpretation of the provisions introduced in 2021. These ensure that industry decommission so that there will be no repeat of the events surrounding the Tui oil field, where the operator liquidated and Government had to step in at a significant cost to the taxpayer\u2014hundreds of millions of dollars to the New Zealand taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe select committee reported back to the House with four recommendations, and these were shared with this House during the second reading. As part of the committee of the whole House, I tabled a Supplementary Order Paper that made minor and technical changes to the bill, including moving provision relating to the Minister\u2019s ability to consider past iwi feedback on existing or previous permit holders out of the Schedule of the bill and to new section 29C in clause 11 to increase clarity; clarifying, in section 105(1) in clause 19, what time periods can be described for the purposes of preparing and consulting on draft iwi engagement reports; presenting finalised iwi engagement reports to the chief executive of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment and making the consequential changes to section 33C, in clause 12; and amending the Schedule of the bill to refine the application of new Part 5 inserted into Schedule 1 of the Act, and to remove an unnecessary clause from the new Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee again for their work and consideration of this bill. I believe that the changes that were made to the bill as a result of the select committee process have resulted in a better and more robust piece of legislation. I want to thank everyone who has contributed to the preparation and passage of this bill. I look forward to seeing the amended Crown Minerals Act serve New Zealanders now and into our future with the development of minerals promoted where they are needed, but clearly charting our pathway of how we achieve net zero in our future. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221c9695e9dd2d47a99047d187d75ee6ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c9695e9dd2d47a99047d187d75ee6ee\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00227e274e1a742f4ca7a5ca31737e45c1a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e274e1a742f4ca7a5ca31737e45c1a7\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to have a speech in this third reading of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, which we oppose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe Minister who\u2019s just taken her seat had a lot to say about climate change and about transition. Unfortunately, this bill is not really going to have much of an impact on that, although it will have an impact on the wealth of New Zealand and New Zealanders. She talked about clause 4, which changed \u201Cpromote prospecting for, exploration for, and mining of Crown owned minerals for the benefit of New Zealand.\u201D to \u201Cmanage prospecting for, exploration for, and mining of Crown owned minerals for the benefit of New Zealand.\u201D Unfortunately, that will have some impact. Semantics do have a practical effect. Unfortunately, the management of permits is anything but efficient. They are not efficient. The delay\u2019s unbelievably long and it is having a deleterious effect on the mining industry. Ironically, as my colleague pointed out, the Labour Party had its roots on the West Coast in the mining industry and now the Labour Party appears to be abandoning its base, leaving their mining past behind\u2014and the hard work and toil of those miners that set up the Labour Party all those years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe transition to a greener economy is essential. We are doing that; it\u2019s an essential part of the modern world. Unfortunately, as part of that, as I alluded to in the committee of the whole\u2014and this has been right across the Western World\u2014we\u2019ve got a bit worried about mining and the impacts that it has. But what we\u2019re doing\u2014we still require all those minerals\u2014is we\u2019re essentially exporting the mining responsibility to people overseas where the environmental rules are not as stringent as they are in the Western World and the labour regulations are not what we would expect here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand, people working in the mining industry earn well above the average or the median. It\u2019s a very well-paid sector to work in, and people\u2019s health and safety is incredibly well looked after. I have been down two gold mines, well underground, very deep in the Waihi mine and also on the Snowy River Mine on the West Coast, not far out of Reefton\u2014fantastic facilities. The attention to detail on the safety of their staff is unbelievable, almost. So they really take that very, very seriously. So, too, do they take the environmental obligations very seriously as well. All of the plans for the restoration of the mining sites are in place in a modern mine when it\u2019s opened. Now, no doubt regulations may change over the time of that mine but they are responsive and the people that handle their restoration are only there for that job. They are not the miners. They are not the people doing the drilling and the blasting, they\u2019re not people operating the machinery, they\u2019re not people operating a trammel mill or the other processes in the mine. They are there to protect the environment and to meet the obligations that any good steward of the land would do, and I have seen that firsthand on numerous occasions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI\u2019d have to say what a pleasure it was to visit the Stockton mine, and I\u2019d urge anyone who gets the opportunity to go there; they should do that. The professionalism of the people working there and their attention to detail and the way that they go about their mining is something I think we should all as New Zealanders be very proud of. This goes to the transition. The coal from Stockton is metallurgical coal. It is used to make steel, primarily, and in other industrial processes as well, but not just for the calorific value of the heat in the coal; it can be used for industrial processes, as well as other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThat coal is used by steel mills overseas to lower their emissions. Because of the chemical makeup of that coal on the West Coast, they blend it with other coal and are able to use less coal, in total, to make that steel\u2014and they have lower emissions as a result of that. The emissions from that coal is a significant part of steelmaking. Now, there are some strides being made to make steel without coal. That is in its infancy at the moment. Basically, it\u2019s not taking it from iron ore to steel; it\u2019s the scrap metal to steel stage that\u2019s able to be done more easily, and that is really pretty much in its infancy and the costs are quite high. So I think coal is going to be with us for quite some time to make steel. As my colleague Melissa Lee mentioned earlier, an everyday thing that we think of today, such as a wind turbine, has, on average, 220 tonnes of coal used to manufacture that turbine. We need coal and I know, as a man of the West Coast, you\u2019ll be delighted to know that there are jobs for West Coasters and a future in the mining industry on the West Coast. That\u2019s a message, certainly from this side of the House, that I\u2019d like to get on the record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut mining goes much wider than people would think. If we do think about batteries\u2014if we think about an alkaline battery, it\u2019s got zinc, manganese, potassium in it; a silver oxide battery has silver, zinc, potassium; a lithium-ion battery has lithium, cobalt and carbon, and it has 28 percent graphite. Graphite is also mined, albeit that in my electorate, at CarbonScape, they are making\u2014right through the process of being able to make, and now trying to commercialise\u2014green graphite. That is from carbonaceous waste into graphite that can be used at a very high purity, higher than most deposits of graphite that are found naturally and mined, and that will lower emissions for batteries. But, VW did a comparison of a battery electric vehicle with a diesel vehicle of a similar size and they found that, for those vehicles over their lives they would have to do 100,000 miles before the EV reached the same emissions level as the diesel. So once they went beyond 100,000 miles, then the EV was actually lower on emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo, just to put these things in perspective; it seems to be forgotten by others, or perhaps it\u2019s not known, and that\u2019s to their shame. But I would like to point out, as I said, mining goes much wider than things like wind turbine towers and batteries. Toothpaste, for example, has fluoride in it, as you would be aware, where they mine for fluoride. Calcium, aluminium, and sodium\u2014all of those are mined for. In deodorant, there\u2019s aluminium and zirconium\u2014all mined. Sunscreen has zinc; electric shavers and toothbrush\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aea78c5214d4c7d924f8d8dd1df48fe\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could I just ask those members at the back to move a little closer for your conversation instead of yelling at each other across. I can hardly hear this very good speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f60541ff3d54c8984ac974257a2323e\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: And magnesium is used in anticaking, for foundation powders and creams. Who knew? Titanium is used as a whitening agent in powders and cosmetics, and potassium is used in fragrances and tanning lotions. Iron, of course, is used in cosmetic pigment and metal polish. So all of those things are mined for. Not all of them but a lot of them are available here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENow, do we want those things that we use to be made ethically? Do we want those things to be made with as little impact on the environment as possible? Do we want those things mined where the mines will be restored in an environmentally responsible and sustainable manner? I would say yes to all of those things, and I think all New Zealanders would say yes to those things. But this Government seems intent on exporting our sins overseas. They want it all to be done overseas and, as I mentioned in the committee of the whole House, the West has made a strategic mistake here. We are now dependent on regimes that are not often as ethical in terms of labour laws and the environmental practices, and yet we seem quite happy to have that happen. Do we care about the climate? Yes, but it is a global issue, not a national issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022561d778b7f284791bf677f27f1a51e57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022561d778b7f284791bf677f27f1a51e57\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s my pleasure to be able to support the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. This is a bill that was considered carefully by the select committee\u2014a great select committee, the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and I just wanted to thank all the submitters and all of the officials for working with us on this bill. As it has been already canvassed in this House, we made a few more changes and a few more clarifications around some of the clauses in this bill, but mainly this bill is here so that we can make sure that our Crown-owned minerals are there to benefit all New Zealanders, and the management, and the way we manage it can be good for our environment and our economy as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe have strengthened the rules of engagement with iwi and hap\u016B; we\u2019ve also made it more clear about what the requirements are for decommissioning, making sure that we give these rights to those responsible mining companies. I just wanted to quote something\u2014as many of us would watch every day\u2014from Air New Zealand: that this land is not just yours or mine, it\u2019s not just inherited from our ancestors but borrowed from our children, and we have a responsibility for future generations in looking after it. That\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022586a518c99124307a59f478baa06f52a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022586a518c99124307a59f478baa06f52a\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d like to commend my colleague Stuart Smith, who has articulated brilliantly, and like you, Mr Speaker, I too enjoyed that tremendous speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIn the third reading, obviously, I\u2019d like to thank my select committee members on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. As the chair said earlier, we do actually work very cooperatively and efficiently, and I\u2019d like to wish the members\u2014I\u2019m not so sure if I\u2019ll get another chance to wish them good luck in the coming election, because next week is our final week in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EBut on this bill and the purpose, right from the outset it changes the dynamics of how the industry is supposed to operate. Instead of the Government promoting prospecting and exploring for minerals, it is basically only going to be managing it. So, literally, it is not saying, \u201CWelcome, you are here to explore\u201D\u2014and, potentially, get more minerals that are needed for all of the products that Stuart Smith talked about in his speech. That change is in clause 4. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe other aspect of it in clause 5 is that it also talks about the functions of the Minister responsible for the administration of the principal Act where the attracting of the permit application is now officially cancelled. They\u2019re not going to be attracting it. They\u2019re going to decide \u201Cfrom time to time\u201D, meaning hardly ever, under this Government, because it looks like they\u2019re officially off the target area for the Labour Government for the prosperity of New Zealand. Where other Governments in the world are trying to incentivise mining for minerals and they are even subsidising some of the work that they do, New Zealand is basically saying no, and that is at the cost of us all. I know that the Government actually talks in a very big-falutin way about how they\u2019re committed to emissions reduction, and yet their decision to close down on gas exploration, which other countries support as a backstop for energy, means that we don\u2019t actually have that any more. I think that overseas, they say in Norway\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7234733a2dc43b6b1e64faa068a8bf7\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve just reopened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb216cfa4024da68d23af1519f674fa\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve reopened, according to Stuart Smith. He\u2019s just told me that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d6eb079d6a0473787813641a5ce754e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Stuart Smith is a very wise man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd18b95b84f740f8b4cfb9089c59851d\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: He is\u2014well, he is the spokesperson, after all. He knows his business, and I think sometimes I have to wonder whether the Minister does, in fact, know about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe issue is that the Minister of Energy and Resources, in her answer during the committee stage, said that it wasn\u2019t part of the debate, but she introduced it by trying to defend her Government\u2019s position by saying that New Zealand has had the lowest importation of coal in the last quarter of last year. I have to remind the members that in 2021, we had one of the highest importation of coal\u2014close to 2 million tonnes\u2014that came into this country from Indonesia, where we cannot guarantee that their exploration methods are as clean as we do it. Why not open the mines here in New Zealand so that we can control the environmental impact? We only do it because we may need it when the water levels in our hydro lakes are down and we need the coal to power our energy, but, instead, we import it from another country where we can\u2019t control the emissions commitment of those countries or the practices of those countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EGoing forward, whether or not it is products that use minerals that we import, we probably, as a nation, need to think about how those products are manufactured in terms of their emissions profile, because that\u2019s the trend around the world. I think we would all support that, but we need to actually think about how we do it in New Zealand. I think we can be better, and all of us can agree to that. But, as Stuart said, do we want to make sure that we support the mining industry to explore and get these minerals out of the ground to, potentially, use for the things that we need, including electric vehicles (EVs) and including silica, for example. I mean, you know, Silicon Valley\u2014we need chips, right? Potentially, we could actually create manufacturing where we filter the silica that we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283ffd66c867c42ac89c516c079b98593\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: We could sell them silicon ingots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225128a6c657974b1f8a614628f322bba0\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly, and we should think about the future. The future is in digital and it needs a lot of minerals. I think that EVs have\u2014how many more minerals?\u2014six times more minerals than conventional cars. I know that earlier I talked about the wind turbines\u2014one wind turbine takes 220 tonnes of coal to manufacture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc234a65193a43628224e51a38c38016\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: So you replace the coal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c28d6c26d84d4797ba90428bee56bf1d\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: I know. But the thing is that we have to look at those costs as well, and perhaps those costs for carbon emissions could be reduced if we did it from New Zealand, rather than importing coal that has a really terrible carbon emission profile, and it has to be shipped to New Zealand as well. That also is a carbon profile addition, rather than things that are dug up from our own ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not suggesting we go all foolhardy on coal, coal, coal; I\u2019m talking about minerals. There are plenty of minerals in our Crown land, where we can promote and be responsible in their attraction. I think that the Government could actually do more to support the industry instead of kiboshing it and saying no, and calling them out as if they are bad actors. I think everyone tries to do their very best. Yes, we do get some bad actors, and those bad actors need to be pulled up for their activities and we should make sure that they pay for their bad activity in terms of their pollution. But when we consider the fact that overseas Governments are incentivising minerals mining and trying to make sure that there is competition in the field, I think New Zealand is actually badly served by our Government trying to reduce the amount of exploration. I certainly do not support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002255d256a208744f16b69c6c5885abf02a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255d256a208744f16b69c6c5885abf02a\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E One of the worst and laziest debating habits that occurs in this House from time to time is the creation of the straw man. That is the development of an argument that is self-evident but doesn\u2019t actually go to the matter that is under consideration. That is what we have been treated to over the last couple of speeches from the Opposition, who are opposing this bill. The Opposition have waxed lyrical at some length about the fact that extractive industries are important to our modern economy and our modern society. There is not a single member of this House who disputes that in some cases extractive industries are important for some of the things that we enjoy in our societies, and nor does this bill make that claim, yet listening to the Opposition members\u2019 speeches, one might think that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWhat this bill simply does is to ensure that we have a Crown minerals regime in New Zealand that ensures that when we do allocate rights to Crown minerals\u2014which we accept in this House it is the purview of the Crown to allocate\u2014that they are managed in a way that is good and to the benefit of our country, and, as the previous Labour speaker Naisi Chen said, with a broader range of considerations in mind, including environmental considerations and the needs of future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWhat we really got to, and we heard this from the last couple of speakers as they got a bit deeper into their speeches, is the fact that the National-ACT Opposition fundamentally has got to the point where they\u2019ll mouth some words about climate change, but, ultimately, will not actually do anything to change our practices in a meaningful way that would reduce emissions. They want to reopen prospecting for new oil and gas. They want to mine for more gold. It\u2019s good to get the clarity and honesty from the ACT Party, and I give the ACT Party some credit for that. I disagree with them profoundly, but they tend to coat it in fewer weasel words than the National Party. The ACT Party wants to mine for more oil and gas and coal, and that is what we will get under a future National-ACT Government that will abandon all of the meaningful steps that we have taken to actually reduce our carbon emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe final point that I find extraordinary is that we have an Opposition voting against this bill that puts in place stronger provisions around the decommissioning of oil and gas infrastructure. That is a fundamentally irresponsible position because it will leave the Crown in the position of having to take up the costs of that decommissioning in future years\u2014yet another cost that you can add on to the National Party\u2019s uncosted future Budgets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill that means that we can manage mineral extraction in a better way in the future, not close it down\u2014no one\u2019s proposing to do that\u2014and that will reduce cost to the taxpayers through the decommissioning of future infrastructure. It\u2019s a prudent and sensible bill and I\u2019m very pleased that it will pass through the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1a3b27a5c244b4ab96a6274dff07286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1a3b27a5c244b4ab96a6274dff07286\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you to the previous speaker, the Hon Michael Wood, for acknowledging that the ACT Party does support ongoing development of oil and gas resources and our mineral resources, and that we also have a strong commitment to reducing the effects of greenhouse gas emissions by making sure the emissions trading scheme puts a price on emissions so the incentives to reduce emissions are clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat is why the ACT Party says that the provisions of this bill, which further go to restrict access and development of New Zealand\u2019s natural and physical resources\u2014particularly those hydrocarbon resources natural gas and oil which we absolutely depend on for residential heating, generating electricity, and for producing manufactured goods like methanol; like paper from our timber and forestry, and so on\u2014that we continue to have an adequate supply of those resources at a cost-effective rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s come to the problems that this bill proposes to solve and the problems that this bill causes. This bill proposes to amend the Crown Minerals Act, which includes minerals in the ground\u2014things such as gold and silver, for example\u2014and oil and gas. They are all covered by this Act. It enables a more flexible approach to the management allocation of rights to Crown-owned minerals. Well, what it does by removing the word \u201Cpromote\u201D from the purpose of the bill\u2014\u201Cpromote\u201D the development of minerals\u2014it, essentially, takes away the \u201CNew Zealand\u2019s open for business; we want New Zealand to be a wealthy country so we can afford better social outcomes.\u201D It takes away the \u201Cpromote\u201D and goes back to \u201Cmanage\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen it says, instead of the Minister being required to make offers to the market to access New Zealand\u2019s Crown-owned minerals\u2014oil, gas, and other minerals such as gold\u2014instead of being required to \u201Cpromote\u201D that and to provide permitting in a regular and timely manner, it\u2019s going to be \u201Cfrom time to time\u201D. So when a Minister feels like\u2014and we didn\u2019t hear any criteria from the Minister what that might be. Of course, we could expect that under a Government that was supported by the Green Party\u2014which is fundamentally opposed to mining\u2014and Labour, which, essentially, does whatever it thinks will get the kids to vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIf this administration continues along this route, what we can see is an ongoing pathway to reduction in access to affordable oil and gas energy and to the critical minerals that the Minister acknowledged are critical for life on earth as we know it now. Whether it\u2019s medical imaging equipment, satellites, cell phones, or simply the batteries and computer chips in the electric vehicles that one day we\u2019ll all be driving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe have a choice. Do we go back to a zero-growth, doughnut economy\u2014a circular economy, essentially: limits of growth, some socialist utopia where a centralised government will tell you where you are allowed to live, what car you are allowed to drive, what fuel you are allowed to use\u2014or should we choose, instead, the economic opportunity that developing New Zealand\u2019s resources offers us? Because that\u2019s what ACT would do. We believe that getting the resources out of the ground, turning them into economically valuable goods, trading them with our neighbours and our partners value-for-value actually uplifts all New Zealanders\u2014but particularly those in the regions like Taranaki; the West Coast of the South Island; Southland; Otago; and, of course, Coromandel, where small towns like Waih\u012B benefit from having fantastic high-tech, environmentally friendly operators like OceanaGold operating gold mining in in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo the Minister admitted that this bill is necessary because of something that happened in 2018. This bill backfills and, essentially, resolves a lot of the messy policy and legislative damage caused by former Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, who announced on 11 April 2018 a ban on oil and gas exploration offshore in New Zealand, quoted at the time, \u201Cmust start somewhere\u201D, no jobs will be lost, effective immediately. Well crikey, that\u2019s policy on the hoof. Here we are in 2023, five years later, the forlorn Minister of Energy and Resources, Megan Woods, having to come to the House and try to close off some of the issues that that flawed, hopeless announcement has resulted in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt was described\u2014that announcement\u2014as a major victory by the Green Party leader, James Shaw. Truly, in the Prime Minister\u2019s words, he said it is a \u201Cnuclear-free moment of our generation\u201D. Well, this is how it\u2019s going so far\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8fa1efefe834e9e8b75840d08e8acf0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, Mr Court\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022144a17defabe41a6a28a2fcbd7e70105\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce52d343551432abf618f79dd0467ad\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c561c95a0ff451cb749a20b1b361fd3\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. So what does this mean? What does this mean? What is a more flexible approach to management allocation of rights to Crown-owned minerals mean in New Zealand? Well, it means a Minister will have more ability to say no to things, even if they choose to offer permits\u2014even if they choose to offer them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis legislation does not repair the economic vandalism of that 2018 announcement to ban oil and gas exploration. It does not help the environment long term, because all emissions in New Zealand are covered by the cap under the emissions trading scheme, which the Minister of Climate Change can set. If they wanted to reduce emissions, they simply reduce the cap and the number of credits that are auctioned under the emissions trading scheme. It does not reduce carbon emissions by a single tonne. That is a fallacy; that is gaslighting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut what it certainly does do is increase the national security risk that losing our energy independence creates by reducing the amount of oil and gas that we produce here in New Zealand. The Minister talked about a gas transition plan. There is no other country in the world that has embarked upon the removal of an energy source like natural gas from its economy and then, having decided they were going to do that, found the rainbow that leads to the field of unicorns where we all live in this just transition world where no jobs were lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThere is no other country in the world that\u2019s turned off gas. In the midst of a global energy shortage, President Putin having invaded Ukraine and forced Europe to reconsider its own energy transition to increase the volume of renewables, this is what UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said recently in relation to their gas transition plan: \u201CWe\u2019ve all witnessed how Putin has manipulated and weaponised energy, disrupting supply and stalling growth in countries around the world. Now, more than ever, it\u2019s vital we bolster our energy security and capitalise on that independence to deliver more affordable, clean energy to British homes and businesses.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, a future Minister of energy may well make the same speech with regard to New Zealand. Because if the UK deems it necessary to offer hundreds of licences for exploration in the North Sea to the rest of their natural gas resources, to make sure they have clean and affordable energy, and to make sure that their national security interests are upheld, you know, it may well apply to New Zealand too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT opposes this bill, but we do support a regime where decommissioning the Tui oil field or other installations is carried out to an extremely high standard\u2014but that\u2019s already allowed for under existing legislation. ACT would support engagement with iwi and hap\u016B about natural gas and mineral resources where they have customary rights, where they have a demonstrated property right. For example, Ng\u0101i Tahu in the South Island made the case very strongly when the Government was considering whether mining should be banned or prohibited on conservation land, particularly stewardship land, that there are iwi and hap\u016B in New Zealand that have potentially a right\u2014a property right or a customary right\u2014to access minerals that the Crown owns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo it is important that the Government engage with iwi and hap\u016B to understand what that property right is. But ACT can\u2019t support this bill because it doesn\u2019t reduce, by a single tonne of carbon, New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions capped under the emissions trading scheme; it acts to further sterilise economic opportunities, particularly in regions like Taranaki; it exposes New Zealand to a higher risk of our national security being compromised by energy and materials shortages that we could address on-shore; it increases the cost of energy to homes and businesses; and it risks the leakage or deindustrialisation of jobs overseas. ACT opposes this bill. We\u2019ll repeal the ban on oil and gas should we be in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224ffaca7d8fc64d47ae30782647157740\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ffaca7d8fc64d47ae30782647157740\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House will resume at 2\u00A0p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.57 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e077eb10549e4be2b0f902e0b5e14d31\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5a692ee9b154ab6a72cfa878e3b1733\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ba7e1ddb4da47e8a1f14881cc2bbb6f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00229eb60c642bcc4d4990d80b60ba06bf0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eb60c642bcc4d4990d80b60ba06bf0f\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002246186c07b3be4fd7870776264c48615a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246186c07b3be4fd7870776264c48615a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly our investment to boost the teaching workforce with around 700 new teachers from overseas and 300 new domestic teachers. Within a year, the investment that we\u2019ve made has exceeded the goal of a thousand new teachers. In a global shortage, there is high demand for teachers, so we need to make sure New Zealand is an attractive place to have a rewarding teaching career. While there is, no doubt, more work to do, we\u2019ve made good progress with more than 3,800 more teachers in classrooms since we became the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279af0e3a7c464e2ba470da344ed3f2a5\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How did he manage to spend $2 billion more a year on law and order but deliver 107 percent increase in serious assaults, two ram raids a day, and a 70 percent increase in gang members?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b012471c56c24a52ab5d55afedca5242\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, one of the reasons that we know that there are more gang members is that we put more resource into the police chasing gang members and actually making sure that they are being charged. The gang register was only put in place in 2016. Had it been in place for longer under the previous National Government, there probably would have been more gang members on it when we actually became the Government in the first place. We\u2019ve had to do catching up because it was one of the things that the last National Government didn\u2019t do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbd47e1d744a434cb42eff46730abe05\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How did he manage to spend $5 billion more a year in education, hire 1,400 more public servants, but deliver fewer students leaving school with level 2 NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e951958e83174fbeafcd50dd051b657b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Teacher\u2014Mr Speaker, because we are employing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c3a00e45234b0b9578b8350c009b68\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff5cef1ca414c128f0d145610704163\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CMr Teacher\u201D! Slight slip. Because we\u2019re employing more teachers, because we are paying them better, and when he talks about the \u201Cpublic servants\u201D, what he would be referring to are the extra specialist staff, amongst others, but they would be the extra specialist staff employed by the Ministry of Education to deal with the students and to support the students who have the highest learning support needs. We have managed to start getting on top of the significant waiting lists\u2014for example, for some of our most vulnerable young kids who were waiting for far too long to get the specialist support that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b5f21fa7234ba5863e9b8d2598177e\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How did he manage to spend half a billion dollars restructuring the health sector, but every single health outcome\u2014access to cancer treatment, emergency department wait time, surgical wait list, and child immunisation rates\u2014has all got worse; not one single one has improved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e29553abdd9475dab4f326d9b9dd570\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I know the member likes to pretend that the global pandemic never actually happened, but almost every health system around the world has seen indicators around things like elective surgeries and emergency department wait times get worse. And it\u2019s because the health system\u2019s been dealing with a massive influx of people with COVID-19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b810ce5c618f480588297401a3a47d61\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How did he manage to spend $2.3 billion more on housing but rents are up $175, the State house wait list is up 20,000, and there are four times as many kids now living in cars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2254dd3c2b440d49c14b19f72945f14\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m glad the member mentioned the State house wait list, because under the last National Government, to get the wait list down, they simply deleted a whole lot of categories on the wait list. Those people\u2019s housing needs did not go away; they got more severe. And the reason that we\u2019ve now got people on the more severe State house waiting list is that they simply pretended they didn\u2019t exist under the last National Government. We are building more State houses, more public houses, than any Government since the 1950s. If the last Government had been building public houses at the same rate as we are, there would be next to no people on the State house waiting list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca6ddb1efeb2467181d6d2cd88396bbb\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How has he managed a special skill set to spend more, to hire more, but deliver worse outcomes in crime, worse outcomes in health, worse outcomes in housing, and worse outcomes in education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d538bf0376534022ad60af74d510b351\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: If I just take the middle one of those again for a moment and deal with health, the health system has been under enormous pressure because of a global pandemic. I note the member mentioned immunisation rates. Now, that\u2019s an interesting topic given members opposite that could potentially make up a Government, if they are successful, would include apparently a bunch of anti-vaxxers who don\u2019t seem to think that vaccinating kids is a good thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f849720b050f4b8cb884c20d62e58064\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he measure success by the amount of taxpayer money he spends, rather than the actual outcomes delivered for Kiwis that improve their daily lives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a17e3875729e47a1af66d8c11dcbfdb5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t, and I\u2019m happy to have the opportunity to recap\u2014for the member\u2014from yesterday some of the highlights of this Government\u2019s time in office: wages growing at 6.9 percent over the last year, unemployment below 4 percent for two years in a row, more Kiwis in work than ever before, 110,000 low-income New Zealand families having cheaper and healthier power because of the Warmer Kiwi Homes programme, and 77,000 fewer New Zealand children living in poverty under this Government. We\u2019ve seen record levels of renewable electricity generation under this Government. We\u2019ve seen significant efforts to improve the quality of the school property portfolio that was so badly run down under the last Government that we had kids parked in hallways, in gymnasiums, and in libraries because they simply did not have enough classrooms. On the international front, we\u2019ve secured more progress on free-trade agreements than any Government in recent New Zealand history, to support our exporters. We\u2019ve got more people in apprenticeships\u2014274,000 people taking up free apprenticeships and targeted trades training under this Government. One thousand three hundred more classrooms\u2014to put a number on the figure that I was using before. Three thousand more teachers in our classrooms\u2014something that we are incredibly proud of. Supporting schools so that parents don\u2019t have to top up school budgets with donations, in the way they had to under the last National Government. Or what about the hundred million free school lunches that have been delivered in our schools? Increasing paid parental leave to 26 weeks. Increasing health funding so that our hospital doesn\u2019t have to go begging. And here\u2019s one for the member, given his announcement: increased Pharmac\u2019s funding by 51 percent since we became the Government. Twelve thousand additional public housing places under our Government, and there are more under construction right now because we want to see Kiwis with a roof over their head. One thousand eight hundred extra police on the beat under our Government. And let\u2019s not forget the record levels of investment in our infrastructure, with $71 billion due to be invested in infrastructure over the next five years as we catch up for the years of neglect of our infrastructure that we saw under the last National Government. There is so much more I could talk about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022397447331e0d450ba63cc9a0492636ec\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: So what I would say to you is, why, despite that very long spiel, is crime worse, is education worse, is health worse, and is roading worse; why have we not seen improvement in any of those outcomes at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1443526202640bdbec81e742f91305d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I utterly reject the assertion that the member is making in his question. If he thinks that having fewer children in poverty is a worse outcome, if he thinks that building more State houses since the 1950s is a worse outcome, if he thinks having more teachers in schools is a worse outcome\u2014that could actually explain their track record on under-investment in teachers. If he thinks having more nurses and more doctors in our hospitals is a worse outcome\u2014that could also explain the mess that we inherited from the last Government. We actually think those things are good signs. They are good investments in the future of our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022254e05c921bd49efa919fa553154f86b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00223c820c7368714c858c38a1d94cdda65c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c820c7368714c858c38a1d94cdda65c\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What recent progress has the Government made to boost public housing in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022710760277bb843f09da45811e6a9a89c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022710760277bb843f09da45811e6a9a89c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to inform the House that this Government has delivered over 13,000 public houses across the country. In Auckland alone, there\u2019s been an increase of nearly 7,000 public homes. Recently, the Prime Minister and I opened Te M\u0101t\u0101wai, a 276-unit apartment complex in Auckland\u2019s CBD, the largest single-site public housing development in New Zealand\u2019s history. Our extraordinary pace of delivery means that this Government is delivering the most public homes per year since the second Labour Government in the 1950s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eefcc1af8ed40e0a5e48ef253400d25\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: How is Te M\u0101t\u0101wai supporting its tenants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224178ef55dbbc4384a7b0b3a362a174a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Te M\u0101t\u0101wai will provide tenants with around-the-clock onsite support, which demonstrates our deep commitment to ensuring those people who need the support in their lives can get it. Around 60 percent of the units at Te M\u0101t\u0101wai are accessible or universally designed and have been recognised with Lifemark ratings of 3 or 4. All of the units at Te M\u0101t\u0101wai are built to Homestar 7 standard, meaning they will be warmer, healthier, and more energy efficient for those who make their homes there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cf5620c6f0c41aabe7417fcafad2cb7\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to help elderly people into public housing in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220619d3ddf2b34869bd1797492bd7f5ea\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: K\u0101inga Ora is currently building 236 new homes in Avondale to replace 45 older homes. Of this, 192 of the homes will be retained for seniors housing. Once complete, it will allow K\u0101inga Ora to replace several ageing senior housing complexes across Avondale and Blockhouse Bay. K\u0101inga Ora has also worked in partnership to deliver 41 new public homes on Wilson Road, Glen Eden specifically designed for older people. Other examples of K\u0101inga Ora senior housing that are currently at various stages of development across Auckland include 52 homes on Greenslade Crescent in Northcote and 123 homes in Manukau City\u2019s Osterley Way. We are deeply committed to providing the support needed for those in public housing, including older New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af62360dea7a4607afc978ddeeb221bf\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government enabling land for much-needed housing in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3b89935de974a81b76bc405dc5423c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has invested $2 billion from the Housing Acceleration Fund into five large-scale projects in Auckland: in T\u0101maki, Mount Roskill, Oranga, Northcote, and M\u0101ngere. This work, which has been overseen by K\u0101inga Ora, delivers the pipes, roads, and other key civil infrastructure to allow more than 17,000 homes to be built across Auckland in the coming years to help solve our housing crisis. This work also enables an additional 11,000 homes to be delivered on neighbouring privately owned land. In addition to this work, over $120 million in infrastructure investment through the Infrastructure Acceleration Fund will enable a further 4,000 homes across Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022297aa539aec744d6a5b596898656cf84\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made on these Auckland large-scale projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228732754c39ad4f95aed6039df35aa07d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: To date, the work under way has seen 82 hectares of land made build-ready to support more than 6,000 homes. More than 2,600 homes have so far been delivered in the Auckland large-scale projects by property developers. These homes are a mix of market and affordable public homes, as the work continues with about another 30 hectares of land to be made build-ready for housing. Our Government is proud of these outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f77cf4076450466e97e43126a88904c4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Revenue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002216d10db883b54f6f860f7bd025cc796b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216d10db883b54f6f860f7bd025cc796b\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: Does she agree with the Minister of Finance\u2019s statement that he was \u201Ctoo definitive\u201D when, prior to the election, he ruled out changes to the brightline test, and will the Government\u2019s subsequent changes to the bright-line test result in some New Zealanders paying a capital gains tax on their family home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022eed548b04aaf481e913cf1a05e966657\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eed548b04aaf481e913cf1a05e966657\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I always agree with the finance Minister\u2019s statements in the context that they were made. New Zealand has no capital gains tax on the family home. Further, I have today announced that we will remove the brightline test for owners of flood- or cyclone-damaged properties who take up the voluntary buy-out offer, which is co-funded by the Government and local authorities. We remain committed to supporting those affected by the severe weather events. In some cases, a voluntary buy-out may trigger the brightline test or one of the other tests for land sales. The Government is clear: it isn\u2019t appropriate to apply the brightline test to these property sales because of the impact of weather events. This builds on earlier tax rollover relief changes made in April for the North Island weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226177022e87ea4b7e9bf5eed7826813c4\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How can she say there is no capital gains tax on the family home when the IRD has issued specific guidance which says that if a family-home owner is out of their home for 12 months for any reason, they will be subject to a 10-year brightline test, meaning, in effect, they will pay a capital gains tax on the sale of their home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e69c7853e11940e3b79ef9eb7f81e695\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that there is no capital gains tax on the family home. I also remind the member that the brightline test was introduced by the National Party, which created this uncertainty. Under National\u2019s rule, the owner must have resided in the property as their main home. The main home exclusion will not apply when only a family member and not the owner has used the property as their main home. So this would\u2019ve been caught by the National rule. Under their rules, if that person was living in the home for less than half the time they owned it, they would have been subject to tax on the entire gain on the sale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e865f320f9248c383f3282d5cf05776\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she keep claiming that there is no capital gains tax on the family home when the IRD\u2019s explicit guidance about Rebecca says that despite never owning an additional home and having her husband and daughter stay in the sole home she owns, she would have to pay a capital gains tax for the time she was away from her home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280747115154c4c428b806941a096169c\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I want to reiterate my earlier comments: there is no capital gains tax on the family home. Section CB16A, which talks about the disposable under the brightline test, the Commissioner of Inland Revenue, not the Minister of Revenue, is responsible for interpreting the tax legislation. The main home should not be caught by the brightline test. This has never been and is not the intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff45995577e4415b14ac6a503cad0dc\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it\u2019s fair that a family would have to pay a capital gains tax on the sale of their family home just because one parent needed to move out of home for a period of time due to, for example, a work secondment or a family illness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979ee43ebec541db9b65ec84aadb294f\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s not fair is that under the previous rules by the National Government, if a person was living in the home for less than half the time they owned it, they would\u2019ve been subject to tax on the entire gain on that sale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e60cd37e4ca4d819a1526882d1e09f9\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister see that the best way to ensure that no family is subject to her capital gains tax by stealth would be simply to take the brightline test back to two years where it should stay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a09af1f87b24e159ab9895819544528\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely refute the mischaracterisation by that member who says that there is a capital gains tax by stealth. There is no capital gains tax in New Zealand on the family home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a173680dc197415fac843a3564b7a866\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister realise it\u2019s pretty confusing when she claims there isn\u2019t a capital gains tax for families but explicit IRD guidance makes clear that if a homeowner is out of their family home for more than 12 months for any reason at all\u2014secondment, renovations, damage from a natural disaster\u2014they will be exposed to her Government\u2019s brightline test if sold within the brightline period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd4174b5fb34b63b3d1d30ff424ead0\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: What is confusing is that these are the same rules that the National Party introduced when they brought in the brightline test in 2015. We sought to clarify the rules in 2021 to provide some cushion for those taxpayers. Therefore, once again, I reiterate, there is no capital gains tax on the family home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022405386399eaa401aa01c4adff66d288a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef76340091a945f9a39cb46105f1ad33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef76340091a945f9a39cb46105f1ad33\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his response \u201CYes, I do\u201D to my question yesterday asking if he stood by \u201Cthe factually incorrect statement he made to Newshub on Saturday \u2018The idea that you\u2019d make a joke about blowing up an ethnic minority is something that isn\u2019t really funny\u2019\u201D, and does he consider his own statements that the Ministry for Pacific Peoples\u2019 expenditure \u201Cisn\u2019t acceptable\u201D to be criticising an ethnic minority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002291db4b895a294e70b75a53e7df3a6be5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291db4b895a294e70b75a53e7df3a6be5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by the statement that such jokes are not funny. All Government spending is open to scrutiny and it\u2019s possible to do that without talking about blowing people up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022571df8efb9ae49688128f1c5309eade9\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the statement\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022903ce6c36c6d41ff996c7495cfa0aa42\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022406ee71cba684ff2a75bd75ff836f3e6\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014he made yesterday\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224377b905555c4118b89c4f0fcc8015e3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt. Can you ask the question again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff29117f41bd47d79c72c1d90cf23924\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Happy to, Mr Speaker. Does he stand by the statement he made yesterday that \u201CI believe \u2026 all political leaders have a responsibility to take care in the statements \u2026 they make about all of New Zealand\u2019s citizens and groups, and we have a particular duty of care to ensure that the statements we make don\u2019t inflame tensions\u201D; and if he really believes that, why did he mischaracterise my criticism of wasteful spending at a Government department as an attack on an entire ethnic group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2bd75b034a4147b01983d3fe5c5bb4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and it\u2019s a matter for the member to clarify what it was he was intending when he said he thought that sending Guy Fawkes into the Ministry for Pacific Peoples was an appropriate thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2ce28f42b3475cab56a536278c877c\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How can he stand by his statement that \u201Cpolitical leaders have a responsibility to take care in the statements that they make\u201D while, at the same time, making factually incorrect statements, and standing by them today, when they introduce race into a debate where it never needed to be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6533f56800642dbaeb83a0a69153266\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I know the member seems to want to turn the election campaign into a culture war with himself at the centre of it. We\u2019re actually focused on more important issues, on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022effda1139c4d4f879d4ac16e44850350\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement in response to questions about Labour\u2019s low polling: \u201Cwe\u2019re going to fight back\u201D, and is mischaracterising what other people say for political advantage part of this \u201Cfight back\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e9dc0684054474b13d2d52b64b941a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, as Prime Minister, I\u2019m not responsible for either of those comments. But, yes, of course, I do stand by the first one. With regard to the second one, I\u2019m sure that the parties opposite will be getting more scrutiny\u2014including uncovering the fact that the member himself is being propped up by a bunch of anti-vaxxers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e43a713e0544f8aa18e277163f8afe\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai. What does the Prime Minister think must be done to stop politically motivated violent extremism that is growing, the white identity - motivated violent extremism that is growing, that relate to anti-Semitism, ant-rainbow, anti-M\u0101ori, and anti-Pacific ideologies, as identified in the New Zealand\u2019s Security Threat Environment 2023 report released last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220365cf8b696d40b4a2eaaf1aa0e785b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There are many things that we can do, but I think one of the things that we can all do as political leaders is to lead by example. The other thing is when we see that behaviour, we can call it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022163e4d3d4a7c4865ad95e05c7776a0f1\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister believe New Zealanders have a right to an honest, healthy debate this election, and will he publicly commit to promoting that instead of mischaracterising others\u2019 statements and creating a culture of fear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef99a2e91db94ec4b368389e4195aecb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I absolutely do and I would like the member to make the same commitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea444222e3f440fd874109e2a958b4dc\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is he resorting to a desperate campaign of fear because his Government has no record to run on and New Zealanders know it and they\u2019re deserting him at the polls by the thousand every week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf65ba63e65746ae9cfdb545ab647e6b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Coming from a member who\u2019s being propped up by a bunch of anti-vax conspiracy theorists, I think that question\u2019s a bit rich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294c92c3dced447629002805f68d0fed2\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with a judgment that we\u2019ve got the leader of ACT chiming in about law and order but is first to get name suppression for his president for heinous crimes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278e6b1912610446aa79b399c86675000\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister\u2019s not responsible for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dbb50af69134a1396c3589deeebebc7\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I invite you to reflect and perhaps seek advice. The member has just speculated that a particular individual has name suppression and is guilty of heinous crimes. Both of those are in contempt of court, and, due to the long tradition of comity between this House and the courts, to make such statements is deeply disorderly, brings the House into disrepute, and should face very severe consequences from you, Mr Speaker. I can\u2019t believe, frankly, what I\u2019ve just heard. The tikanga of this House is well known and should be respected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e41af90a39264dfea0f8f46da91592f4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d like everyone to calm down, thank you. I will go back and look at everything that\u2019s happened in question time today. The future of the House is in the House\u2019s hands and every individual member in it. I have\u2014and I have stated this on a number of occasions\u2014allowed supplementary questions to be asked, including the member himself on this very question today, that have been out of order, almost completely out of order, and have allowed the Minister to choose whether or not they want to address all or part of it. I will go back and have a look at that particular one and everything else, but there\u2019s a very clear procedure about what the member is talking about. He has that open to him if he wishes to take that course of action, OK? Raising it as a point of order in such an instance is not appropriate. Are there any further supplementaries on this primary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f72f6d9ae5940fa9a92bf8e238024d9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u002222a2721e5aa74393b2470df3f2433f9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222a2721e5aa74393b2470df3f2433f9d\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What announcement has she recently made regarding improving the mental health of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00226624dc0ace1b4e5da616fe7c9a9fa01c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226624dc0ace1b4e5da616fe7c9a9fa01c\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this week, I was proud to announce that the Government\u2019s mental health and addiction programme Access and Choice has hit the 1 millionth support session mark since it started delivering services in 2020. Access and Choice provides support to people experiencing mild to moderate mental health challenges so small issues don\u2019t become big problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210449fd8fe7145329ef590c19eeb686f\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: How many New Zealanders does the Access and Choice programme support? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f20fb2f406a74f9ba21218fe07fd0e7e\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Each month, tens of thousands of New Zealanders are benefiting from this new programme, which offers mental health support in healthcare settings they are used to, such as GP clinics. The wellbeing support provided in general practice alone has population coverage of over 3 million New Zealanders. Figures show that approximately 40,000 to 60,000 sessions a month are being delivered, and this number will continue to grow as the phased nationwide roll-out of services continues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022172a5c29a1024cf8aa7b1ad91b3705e4\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Access and Choice programme supported New Zealand\u2019s diverse communities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfd994227658489f8fa448072820da8d\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealanders can get free and easy to access face-to-face support from Kait\u0101ia through to the Bluff, and more than 600 locations in between. We have seen great uptake in the number of M\u0101ori accessing the service, with 19,700 sessions delivered in May and June this year. We have also seen 4,000 sessions delivered to Pacific people and 9,900 sessions delivered to young people, also in May and June this year. This shows what can happen when we design services with diversity in mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3939e9646464df19a1fbbc72d617491\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: How can someone access those services? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cf89bf996304a12837217f33bf1d330\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Access and Choice services don\u2019t require referral and are appealing to a wide cross-section of Kiwis wanting to address mild to moderate mental wellbeing challenges. New sites are also coming on stream every month. Now you can get free and easy to access face-to-face support from Kait\u0101ia through to Bluff and at more than 600 locations in between. To find a provider close to where they live, head to wellbeingsupport.health.nz. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022240f9c95bf964fbfb87f4989c9d36d1e\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s response of being proud, how proud is she that under her Government an extra 176,000 people have been unable to get mental health support, with the latest New Zealand health survey reporting that unmet mental health need has increased from 4.9 percent in 2017 to now 8.8 percent in 2022, despite the $1.9 billion somewhere for mental health? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ea38d9fce140ee99d9d136be6136ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: We have just described a brand new mental health system in the community that is addressing unmet need, and if we had been in the position that that Government left us in, there would be nothing in the community for mental health. If we go back and turn back the clock in the way National wants us to for mental health, those people would be a lot worse off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f7ef0490ffa4cfbb98df487530a70f5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002202b43250dfa340569ac6b4669da07fe6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202b43250dfa340569ac6b4669da07fe6\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CIt is my view that New Zealanders feel safer\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00225e6478d4ce8b415bbe9d917c6f468e4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e6478d4ce8b415bbe9d917c6f468e4f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, for what I believe is the 16th time, I stand by my full statement at the time it was given; it is my view that New Zealanders feel safer with the Government on track to deliver 1,800 extra police. I also stand by my recent comments that it was great to meet in person with Countdown to talk about how we can work together to reduce unacceptable levels of retail crime. I share that member\u2019s concerns about the increase Countdown has seen in stolen goods, physical assaults, thefts, and security incidents. However, rather than just talking about being tough, this Government is resourcing police to work with organisations like Countdown to get on top of this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7fce5bcf21b4899a9c53a455f384a4e\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does she include Countdown employees in those that should feel safer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf8e4393ae641b7ac3fe3b0c976ccfd\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I met with Countdown in just the last week, and when I met with Countdown they were also accompanied by the new retail crime support unit which has been advising them, and they have taken into account those security measures. I will also meet tomorrow with police and representatives from 40 retail organisations, including Farmers, Mitre 10, Michael Hill Jewellers, Pascoes, Aura, Kmart, Glassons, and Retail New Zealand. I agree that there is an unacceptable level of retail crime in New Zealand, and we are taking action to get on top of the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022783909041cc74e02ab5fbc1258aed9ba\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Do the 234 Countdown workers that have been assaulted so far this year feel safer now that she has met with them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d9c9485ffe2431a867a9a55b6ccc66d\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has taken action to support retailers with a new retail crime prevention unit and also to support those retailers with additional security features. The actions this Government is delivering to reduce retail crime is far superior to what those policies are, which is solely to introduce boot camps, which was proven by their own appointed science adviser not to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022decdb2ec0e334740b822afcd332ff7ba\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think Kiwis feel safer when dairy workers are having to confront armed youth offenders, risking their lives to defend themselves and their businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022451a21de573a483f9ab50fea8df17064\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not, and that is why this Government has taken action to introduce a new offence, a ram raid offence, introduced into this House this week. We have also seen record numbers of security installations right across the country. We are working closely with those retail owners so that they are supported and so offenders are brought to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9005367bc8b436daf6d39e03aa7881e\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Given her single focus on community safety, are communities safer now than when she became police Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258b644c13b3f4daa8b0631ba137e6f10\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s always more work to do, and this Government is focused on delivering those results. I think those results of giving retailers clear support, of improving front-line resources with 1,800 extra police, and enabling those retailers to have access to good quality intelligence and advice from police is far superior to the actions that member is suggesting, which is simply to introduce boot camps for youth offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c43cb44f725141119037cb201162b237\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022 data-id=\u0022d246ea144d2e4bffa41ad1fe7bde6406\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d246ea144d2e4bffa41ad1fe7bde6406\u0022\u003ESTEPH LEWIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What has the Government done to support New Zealand\u2019s farmers and growers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00222715915d662e4196875b1c1968f9a5ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222715915d662e4196875b1c1968f9a5ef\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E The primary industries are the backbone of our economy and the Labour Government has always backed our farmers and growers. The full list is too long to read out in the House, but I\u2019ll give you a few examples. Firstly, we\u2019ve successfully implemented a world-first Mycoplasma bovis eradication programme. We\u2019ve co-invested in 267 sustainable food and fibre futures projects alongside industry to lift export value and innovation. We stood up the Opportunity Grows Here initiative to attract Kiwis into the sector and support with labour shortages. We saved Telford and Taratahi from financial ruin and ensured the future of agricultural education. We started On Farm Support and the Career Pathways Scheme. We set aside $6 billion for futureproofing roads and rail infrastructure. We invested $1 billion into developing emissions reduction tools, extension services on farm, and farm sustainability practices, and we\u2019ve secured seven new or upgraded free-trade agreements to give our exporters diversified market opportunities. At every turn, the Labour Government is looking to cement the bright future of our primary industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a033286fb67741249961784578b9300c\u0022\u003ESteph Lewis\u003C/span\u003E: What have we seen as a result of this support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258f6ffcd94514560bf59fd5b00f90605\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As a result of all this great support, we have, firstly, placed more than 16,000 additional Kiwis into primary sector jobs, funded 1,400 people through free agricultural taster courses at Telford and Taratahi\u2014two organisations that the previous National Government had deserted. We have put 44 on-farm support staff on the ground in the regions and they have played a significant role in Tair\u0101whiti and Hawke\u2019s Bay. We\u2019ve got 50 farm advisers into the Career Pathways Scheme. We\u2019ve established 32 rural hubs to connect farming communities with health and wellbeing support, and we\u2019ve slashed millions of dollars in tariffs off our primary sectors. As a result of this and other support, today I\u2019ve announced the final figure for our food and fibre export revenue ending on 30 June this year: a record $57.4 billion of export earnings. That is 50 percent higher than when we came into Government in 2017. I want to thank the industry and everyone in the primary sectors for helping us achieve that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288121cac69b24ea0ad5591b0f2e4e766\u0022\u003ESteph Lewis\u003C/span\u003E: What are the challenges facing the primary sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c97d41c7b9846bcbd9072cbcce9f8d0\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve seen an increase in input prices on farm as a result of Russia\u2019s war in Ukraine and the effect that has had on supply chains\u2014on fertiliser and fuel, in particular. Recently, we have seen commodity prices coming down from their record highs. The markets are also sending strong signals around sustainability credentials and emissions reduction. But some of the biggest challenges that we would have are, firstly, if we ignored the market signals and locked ourselves out of international market opportunities, if we opened the door to foreign buyers and made it uncompetitive for New Zealanders to bid for farms, or if we sold off core infrastructure like roading into the hands of foreign buyers\u2014that\u2019s exactly what National and ACT are campaigning on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed91a236184a4e82b809fe4550532117\u0022\u003ESteph Lewis\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government protect farmers by keeping the conduct of financial institutions Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f009ad3efa4e94865594dc290cf670\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Labour Government remembers the pain of the interest rate swaps crisis and we would not let that happen again. Thousands of farmers lost hundreds of millions of dollars after being taken advantage of by banks and dodgy operators\u2014that\u2019s why we put the Act in place. We also put in place a Farm Debt Mediation Act in 2019 to ensure that farmers under pressure would get a fair deal from their banks. Anyone who is proposing to repeal those protections would be serving our primary sector poorly. That\u2019s what National and ACT are campaigning on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c37435d37bb44635b5f36fa166a85b26\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022baa0e64373b94517bfe4bd5a16f0c068\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baa0e64373b94517bfe4bd5a16f0c068\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing): Does he stand by all his statements and actions in relation to M\u0101ori housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022335775f554214ef1bfde9c3ff528b9db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022335775f554214ef1bfde9c3ff528b9db\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. Yes, in particular, when I said last week that this Government has done more for M\u0101ori than any other Government in history, and I actually referenced the member himself, Mr Potaka. As we all know, the Opposition likes to talk about what members have said in the past, and when Mr Potaka said just last year, this Government has been very much engaged, entwined, and bolted-on to what we\u2019re doing\u2014which is wonderful. Mr Potaka, he also said, \u201CYou either love them or you hate them, and right now we love them.\u201D I\u2019d like to thank that member for his ongoing support and love. Kia Ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b14968ff05b24a98b5c5c94f3f0580b7\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the 553 contracted houses have been completed under the iwi prototype scheme and are now occupied by residents and their wh\u0101nau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eabcdbfb84c40fdb6c4a129df1415ca\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: As that member well knows\u2014as an avid supporter of this Government, he knows the problems that our people have to go through in terms of infrastructure, whenua M\u0101ori; the member knows there\u2019s a range of problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243fac10b1870404fbb5ad4cf46ea713d\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What about a number? Spit it out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784e34c942294413b2f972b93062adfe\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: What we do have is 1,000 houses contracted to 2025\u2014fabulous work done by Minister Henare, Minister Woods, but at the moment we have 70 built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc678bb6465e4f5ebdc5c64d3945613e\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The question was quite clear around how many from a particular programme had been delivered, and I didn\u2019t hear an answer to that question. I heard about 1,000-something else\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258b33cdd8ecd46b3b06a499b8778a3cc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m surprised you heard anything. You\u2019re kidding, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9752041fa984ee692d0f528c1ef0788\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that two weather events have impacted on two of the prototypes, and that those prototypes pivoted to help the East Coast in need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225303448bdaac40a5b6c77ef6fd08dbf1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that, and confirm the support of Sir Selwyn Parata, who has also given huge support to this Government; along with Tuku Morgan, one of the leaders from Tainui; Pita Tipene from the North; Willie Te Aho from the coast; and, of course, we\u2019ve got Jamie Tuuta from Taranaki\u2014and, of course, the member gave his undying support, well, just at the end of last year. I thank him for going for that love and support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204c881622cf948acb3915532df8bf4b4\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: How many, if any, of the houses built through the M\u0101ori housing iwi prototype scheme now house people who were previously on the social housing register, and does his ministry collect that information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022990e3c74a2994350aaf594289d2d9a65\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, I\u2019m not responsible for the social housing register\u2014the Minister\u2019s over here\u2014and if one day he becomes the Minister of Housing, which I think will be never, he could possibly ask that question. I\u2019m not responsible for that register, but I am responsible for the iwi prototypes. Can I say today, this is the only Government that\u2019s ever had a by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori strategy. The previous Government never put anything in place. Shame on Mr Luxon\u2014he\u2019s responsible. He\u2019s the leader now, but Tama here is a big supporter of what we\u2019re doing, so maybe he can initiate that in 2030 or something when maybe you\u2019ll get into Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d278ae6b978447418a6a1fdb6550e292\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile that answer with his answer to written parliamentary question No. 23271, when he states, \u201CI\u2019m advised that Te Puni K\u014Dkiri does not collect information about whether individuals living in houses funded through the Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga were previously on the Housing Register.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf6b4b721b34a96b2c577f965ff1e52\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just do this slowly for the member, because I have a lot of aroha for the member\u2014I\u2019m not the Minister responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229738697438b0469088b9d602c24e90bf\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: How many houses, if any, have been built at Ihum\u0101tao?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de8cd471da6b4249b9c03f02522e0ea2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: As that member knows, Ihum\u0101tao is a unique situation, and our people have five years to build houses, and the member who\u2019s related to some of those people over there, should know better. He\u2019s been very patronising and he\u2019s learnt too many of the dirty rotten National Party tricks\u2014I want the old Tama Potaka back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249f4bb3d30034ae7b94aa8ecffc997f9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00220f5b5ed9244d484fa4d7159c43fad39c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E9 \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f5b5ed9244d484fa4d7159c43fad39c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What actions have Police taken to crack down on retail and organised crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00229c7a1a5d4489413db4f5bf82cbd6bb5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c7a1a5d4489413db4f5bf82cbd6bb5d\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E This Government continues to take action to assist police in tackling persistent youth offending and to hold to account those gang members and organised crime syndicates that peddle their misery and methamphetamine to our communities. There\u2019s plenty more to do, but this Government takes backing the police and tackling crime seriously. This includes continued roll-out of the Retail Crime Prevention Programme and the fog canon subsidy scheme, the introduction yesterday of the ram raids offending bill, and also supporting police with the resources and the laws they need to continue to crack down on organised crime. It\u2019s very easy to talk a big game in this House, but this Government continues to deliver the rules and the tools to support police in their work to crack down on retail and organised crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fcdd1af6dfc4f4f80cecbf9c91e20b0\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: How will new legislation help police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e716b8bb81eb4634907aa446ddec379b\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday, this Government introduced the Ram Raid Offending and Related Measures Amendment Bill to give further tools to police and the justice system to crack down on persistent youth offending. The new ram raid offence is modelled on the existing offence of burglary and will carry a maximum 10-year sentence of imprisonment. Where it does differ is that police now have the discretion to charge 12- and 13-year-olds in the Youth Court, where previously this wasn\u2019t possible. The bill also makes it an aggravating factor in the Sentencing Act to live stream an offence, and for an adult to use a child or a young person to commit a crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b30ee63df0947f8a4a01c003df82d9b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: How are police helping to support retailers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225286cef9ce704d2184e197e60e505f28\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has continued to support retailers through both the Retail Crime Prevention Programme and the fog canon subsidy scheme. To date, 16 August, the fog canon subsidy scheme has seen the installation of 1,867 fog canons into small retailer areas, and also a further 137 are booked in. The Retail Crime Prevention Programme has also aided 586 retailers, with a total of 2,198 security interventions, including 519 fog canons, 421 security sirens, 479 alarms, and 423 CCTV systems and system upgrades. These interventions are making a difference. While ram raids do remain too high, I am always wanting to see that the numbers keep tracking down, as we have seen in the past two months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34cbccde8d9425b8ace62f98f12f665\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen on the success of police charges for serious offences as part of Operation Cobalt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a277a48853345429acee20b89381d87\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Operation Cobalt remains a driving force in supressing and also disrupting organised crime and gang-related activity within our communities. As of 17 August, police have laid 48,814 charges, which includes offences such as burglary, theft, fraud, breaches of bail, reckless driving, driving while disqualified, careless driving, and drink driving. These are serious offences and police are rightfully prioritising holding gang members to account\u2014and also affiliates to account. It\u2019s a shame that some people talk down this work in describing these serious offences as minor charges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002254eaf88d5d3b437589c186a77e59ffaf\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0efa6cd639d448c9ac662c76c46c5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0efa6cd639d448c9ac662c76c46c5b2\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is it acceptable that as of July this year there have been 3,361 cases of staff being physically assaulted in Te Whatu Ora facilities, and is it acceptable that this is only 98 fewer assaults than the 3,459 physical assaults that occurred in the whole of 2022?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00222a835027ddeb4ac6be62380a81b75604\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a835027ddeb4ac6be62380a81b75604\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E No, and no. It is never acceptable that someone is assaulted at work. I am assured by Te Whatu Ora that it takes the safety and security of its staff very seriously and is taking a large number of initiatives to keep people safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec66e72c2b5c487e9eabd0ce2cd76a4f\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable that, in the first seven months of 2023, seven out of the 20 former district health board districts have already recorded more physical assaults on staff than they recorded for the entire year of 2022?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a82c48ea436450f8c4e81a83f2d69c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022410e7f2c525b4dfbb19dfd8a16353b90\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that Te Whatu Ora complies with the Government\u2019s expectation that public sector employers must \u201Ccreate safe and healthy places of work\u201D, when five Te Whatu Ora employees have been stabbed by a patient since 1 January 2022, and, if not, is it acceptable that any staff have been stabbed at their place of work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd67dd6de19c47f188729107a1a10eb4\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is absolutely unacceptable that our staff are treated in that way, and, yes, I do have confidence that Te Whatu Ora works very hard on this problem and has a number of mitigations in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c93ec06b1c934f23bd4d2565c6200834\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: What changes will she advocate for to ensure staff safety when providing healthcare to Kiwis, considering the occurrence of 8,600 physical assaults on staff since April 2021 and the absence of national guidelines for responding to violence against staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238cb21d5980c4139a50a6f0cfc5cf10b\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: There is a number of measures under way already in Te Whatu Ora that I expect Te Whatu Ora to continue to roll out. That includes de-escalation training for staff across hospitals, but particularly in areas of high risk; the presence of over 800 security staff in our hospitals; in areas that are high risk, physical modifications to the environment; not to mention increased efforts put into reporting, which may reflect some of the data the member has mentioned today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b378cfba40124424af4b1260cf02d722\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Local Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00224d71e863d504433cbe92352c2ce53130\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d71e863d504433cbe92352c2ce53130\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: Has he seen the recent report from the Helen Clark Foundation on sponge cities and, if so, has he sought advice about encouraging water-sensitive urban design and sponge cities as part of the three waters reforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00221ba29313f90649059bef8f47ced193c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ba29313f90649059bef8f47ced193c5\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have. I have it here. But I only became aware of it because of the member\u2019s question, so I appreciate her submitting that. I have not sought advice on this, however, because it is our view that the reforms do allow for such proposals to be considered by water entities. Specifically, sections 12 and 14 of the Water Services Entities Act set out the objectives and operating principles of the new water services entities. These include clear requirements for the entities to protect and promote the environment, to support and enable our response to climate change, and to have regard in the delivery of water services to green water infrastructure and water sensitive design.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e706e4fc322438087161da10c4140b4\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: What role, if any, does he consider that nature-based stormwater solutions, such as more green space and urban wetlands, in cities and towns have in responding to a changing climate and more extreme storm events?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd8d1fe535304a5fa6b2cee9c1e019bd\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the report itself, from what I\u2019ve seen, makes for interesting reading. And from the conversations that I\u2019ve had with those within the local government sector already, this is something that is on their radar. But the priorities that the entities will follow are set by the regional representative groups, of which local government each have a seat on there. It\u2019ll be through that venue that local government can highlight the best approaches for their own respective communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280e5e961c8204dda942b260f8010eea7\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider that green roofs, on-site rainwater storage, rain gardens, and more urban trees would help reduce stormwater volumes and improve stormwater management; if so, what action can water services entities take to encourage more use of water-sensitive urban design?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d4d73529574b51adef47aa20a2186d\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m certainly not an expert in these things, but those that will be running the operational aspects of water entities will be. And so if they deem these examples that the member has provided as an appropriate approach to stormwater in the respective communities, I\u2019m certain they\u2019ll pursue them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc819612fddd486993458db256559e83\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Dr Yu Kongjiang, the initiator of the sponge cities concept in China, that, and I quote, \u201CWe need a paradigm shift in planning and designing our cities to adapt to the changing climate.\u201D, and, if so, what measures will he promote through the three waters work programme to achieve this shift?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bfb70522e204dcea45487addb61512f\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: One of the rationales behind the water reforms is to ensure that local voice and local priorities are at the heart of the decisions made by water entities. We\u2019ve tried to ensure that central government direction of those entities is limited as much as possible so that the priorities of the respective communities within those entities would be reflected. I don\u2019t think it would be appropriate for me to express my opinion or indicate any potential direction, because that wouldn\u2019t be my intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ec3efedfb1b413b8c0761bc56e9e6e3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022023586a335f94b1ebabfbaafa54eb1ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022023586a335f94b1ebabfbaafa54eb1ae\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What benefits have New Zealanders gained from the Financial Markets (Conduct of Institutions) Amendment Act 2022?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc8c8d3192c04f979826d2cca3b673ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc8c8d3192c04f979826d2cca3b673ce\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. New Zealanders can be confident today that their banks and insurance companies are obliged to treat them fairly and will face consequences if they don\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b595554455d48dda6bb96953720474a\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: They already have that under the other legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251d4da4371494e1996f04dc9b8eede15\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thanks to this vital legislation, Mr Bayly. Since coming into office, the Labour Government has shone a light on the conduct of banks and insurers through conduct reviews, through court cases, and through the establishment of the conduct of financial institutions (CoFI) Act. We have put the onus on banks and insurers to demonstrate that they put the needs of consumers at the forefront of decisions, and we have given the Financial Markets Authority (FMA) essential new powers to hold institutions that treat customers unfairly to account with significant new penalties. This Government\u2019s work on fair conduct is already seeing hundreds of millions of dollars returned to Kiwi consumers by their banks and insurers, and those responsible for unfair treatment are already being discovered and held to account. Everyone on this side of the House should be proud of this fantastic piece of Government legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e70c35a0cf114256b86c3b1c946fe0a2\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: What led to the Government establishing this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ba2ed0f9f264af5ba9416769fb4a855\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The FMA and the Reserve Bank reviewed the conduct of banks and life insurers in 2018 and 2019. Since that time, a whopping $161,300,000 has been returned to over 1.5 million Kiwis. In the words of the Executive Director for Regulatory Delivery at the FMA, this demonstrates \u201Cthe extent of the [weakness] in the systems and processes across banks and life insurers.\u201D and \u201Cthe significant amount of work required by financial institutions to ensure they are identifying, rectifying, and remediating issues\u201D. The enormous impact of poor bank and insurer conduct on customers is irrefutable, and that\u2019s why this Government took action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d083ecf573449b795c2b167f65a1b62\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: What other evidence is there that the conduct of financial institutions Act is necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022730cb103f64a44e184ac8be13dd99398\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: The FMA has taken seven of New Zealand\u2019s big-brand insurers and banks to court for fair dealing breaches and has seen multimillion-dollar penalties handed down to several of these institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfca9dcb3718451ba48813eb2bcfcd9f\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: But they didn\u2019t do that under CoFI\u2014they did it under existing regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d551b31c4346458e8db9edd38cd4e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bayly, without this Government\u2019s amendment Act passed last year, the FMA can only act retrospectively once harm to those customers has already been done. There is overwhelming evidence that a proactive, fair conduct regime with powers to monitor, licence, and enforce is sorely needed, the likes of which only the conduct of financial institutions Act provides.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222909d1be6d9a4219b571cf20f0c7f877\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Do you have plans to roll back this legislation further?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6374c8a2246480a937ecbadac2bcfff\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not. This Government takes its responsibility for ensuring New Zealanders are protected by our laws\u2014we\u2019re in it for the Kiwi customers who rely on us to make sure their banks and insurers treat them fairly. Where that\u2019s not happening, we will act. We are proud of this critical piece of legislation, and on this side of the House we\u2019ve no plans to repeal it. I agree with Hamish McNicol and Calida Stuart-Menteath, who said in the National Business Review on 18 August that \u201CDitching CoFI is bonkers\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221910975993cc452d88b21f61c10870d6\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d63faed10e004fad808078694a7897bf\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u2014Privileges Committee Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022153b1c7a536c4249958ef5b4d20c8eef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022153b1c7a536c4249958ef5b4d20c8eef\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6bb148eb35c40daa6d24c93abf3b4f2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d34ab27d597844fa8f283087eac442f7\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: The Privileges Committee has tabled its report into my compliance with the requirements of Appendix B of the Standing Orders. I thank the committee for their work on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ETheir report confirms that I should have declared the shares I personally owned in the 2017 to 2021 period, and that I should have corrected the register of pecuniary interests after I did correctly declare them in 2022 and 2023. I have previously acknowledged this and I would now like to take the opportunity to unreservedly apologise to the House. As the committee notes, this was an error on my part and I deeply regret it. I\u2019ve learnt a clear lesson: in an intense and all-consuming job I lost sight of the importance of these matters and I will prioritise complete compliance in this area as I continue my work in the Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EAgain, I thank the Privileges Committee for their considered report on this matter; it points to a number of areas which I believe will be useful to all members. I also take this opportunity to thank a number of members from across the House who have been supportive of me in what has been a challenging issue to deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8bd98f1e4744424880670ce40ff6290\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b5cd8abd3c24c8e982aec9d70834924\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000561\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224a802eb0f3934bbaad02c468eb363c85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a802eb0f3934bbaad02c468eb363c85\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House will now continue with urgency. Before the lunch break, the House was considering the third reading of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. We had completed call No. 6. We come to call No. 7. I call Julie Anne Genter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5958e03e4b74fc3aa3cc355bc92be24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5958e03e4b74fc3aa3cc355bc92be24\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Green Party absolutely supports this bill, the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, and is very pleased to see it pass its third reading today. It has been a long time coming. We\u2019ve known for decades that continued use of fossil fuels is at odds with a healthy, stable climate and the sort of future that we want to leave our children and grandchildren.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re already starting to see the impacts of climate chaos because we\u2019ve put too much greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere, and that has created a thicker atmosphere which is trapping more heat. We\u2019ve seen a record heat dome this week in North America, as well as unprecedented forest fires, uncontrolled fires, burning in Canada. And this, of course, follows earlier severe weather events that have hit Aotearoa New Zealand, including Cyclone Gabrielle and the flooding of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThese kinds of storms and fires have incredible impacts on people. They take their homes, they can take livelihoods, and they impact on food production. They will certainly be disruptive to the way people live their lives. So the cost of this is enormous and it far outweighs the cost of action and transitioning to an economy and a society, a way of living that is reliant on clean, renewable electricity that we have harnessed from the sun and the wind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EHere in New Zealand, we already have our hydro dams and we do need to be working to increase renewable capacity. But one of the key things the scientists have been telling us for several years now, more than several years, is that we have to stop looking for more oil, coal and gas. That is irrefutable. It is impossible for us to carry on looking for more fossil fuels when we already know the world cannot afford to burn the fossil fuels that we know already exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe debate on this bill should be enough for members, members of the public, people watching at home, and voters to understand how stark a difference it will be if we have a National-ACT Government. They are planning to continue exploration for fossil fuels. They see no reason to stop looking for them. They completely misunderstand the science and the clear direction that we\u2019ve been given that says, yes, we\u2019re going to continue using some of the oil, coal, and gas that we already have but we have to stop looking for more. We have to rapidly transition away from using them to have any hope of meeting the Paris Agreement, which was to stay below 1.5 degrees of warming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAlready this year we\u2019re going to hit over 1.1 degrees of warming, I believe, since preindustrial levels, and we\u2019re seeing the sort of chaos it\u2019s creating. Imagine how much worse it will be if we breach that 1.5 degree threshold, or 2 degrees. We\u2019re on track for maybe 3 degrees. Every action that we take from now on has to be aimed at protecting the climate and protecting biodiversity, enabling nature to be restored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EChanging our land use is absolutely essential. Humans are just taking too much from the Earth. We can live in harmony with nature, but we have to draw a line and stop doing the things we know are destructive and counterproductive. It\u2019s that simple. It\u2019s that stark. So anyone who tells you and people at home that it is important for our economy to continue exploring for fossil fuels and to just open the floodgates and promote more mining and extractive industries is just completely wrong, and their values are in the wrong place. They\u2019re probably being paid\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1b58876804744719db98aa92ab0f88b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right, Ms Genter; we\u2019re here to talk about a bill and we\u2019re going a long way off it. So let\u2019s relate it to the bill, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022370c89b4172d4a5a8abab7246309f822\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill changes the purpose of the Crown Minerals Act so that it\u2019s no longer about promoting, but rather about managing, and that distinction is very important. It doesn\u2019t mean that there will be nothing happening. It does mean that the Crown will be exercising its responsibility to manage how those activities take place, where they take place, whether or not they\u2019re taking place in an environmentally responsible manner or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut what the members opposite have said during this debate\u2014that is the National Party and the ACT Party\u2014that they want the Government agencies to be required to promote this sort of extractive industry and exploration for fossil fuels, is just unthinkable to me. It\u2019s completely at odds with the science and what we\u2019ve been told. Most New Zealanders want to have that security\u2014to know that we\u2019re looking after nature, that we\u2019re looking after the climate, that we can responsibly transition to a different way of living. But we can\u2019t do that if all of our Government systems and legislation is set up to carry on the way it was before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EUltimately, I do believe that ACT and National are completely in denial about the challenge that we\u2019re facing, and this is not surprising because the reason we have a Crown Minerals Act that was requiring, you know, the Government to be promoting exploration of fossil fuels was directly linked to lobbying by the fossil fuel industry, who have denied the existence of climate change and put huge amounts of money into confusing the public about the science of climate change so that they could carry on their activities and continue to make obscene profits from activities that are hurting and damaging the very planet we live on\u2014and it\u2019s threatening our very existence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party is very happy to see this bill. It is of utmost importance that we carry on this trajectory of transitioning to a clean, green way of doing things and it\u2019s the Government\u2019s responsibility to manage how these things happen, and that\u2019s what the bill proposes. Yes, some minerals will continue to be used, but only if they are recovered in an entirely ethical and responsible way. That is why this bill is so important\u2014because it is changing from promoting something to managing it. And managing is responsible; promoting is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab1ca501e17d474aadae0a110ac17434\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab1ca501e17d474aadae0a110ac17434\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a short call on the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill this afternoon, which, as we\u2019ve heard, creates more flexibility of Crown-owned minerals for the benefit of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EWhen I was reading through my notes on this particular piece of legislation, I was struck by the importance of the amendment that allows for the decommissioning-related classification amendment that basically ensures that the likelihood of companies gaining permits to mine in New Zealand that do not have that financial and technical capability to undertake and fund decommissioning will be able to be taken into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThe very last thing we need is a repeat of events around the Tui oil field\u2014events, I could remind the House, that cost the New Zealand taxpayer enormous amounts of money and created significant potential for risk to our precious environment. That\u2019s why I commend this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022601dbe9ddc5a427d987111e78f2e07e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022601dbe9ddc5a427d987111e78f2e07e0\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, I\u2019ve been listening to this debate for some time now, earlier today and more recently this afternoon, but also as the bill has progressed its way through the House. And the more I hear from Government members, the less convinced I am of their real heart and passion for this change that they\u2019re making in the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow that we\u2019ve got to the third reading stage, and it\u2019s the final part of the legislative process that will see this piece of legislation come into law after the Royal assent, what is it all about? Well, mostly it\u2019s about changing the tone of the existing legislation, and I\u2019ll come back to that in just a moment. The primary purpose of the Crown Minerals Act that we have is to recognise the importance that we as a Parliament, and as a nation\u2014is concerned about its economic wellbeing and welfare places upon the value of minerals that are administered and licensed and levied by the legislation that the principal Act creates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe have in New Zealand, as have most countries around the world, an understanding that minerals can create wealth, can be an addition, and a practical part of a modern, exciting new world which we all want to enjoy. Pretty much everything that we do in our day-to-day lives has an element that comes from mineral extraction. Whether that\u2019s in the fossil vehicles that some of us still drive from time to time or whether it\u2019s the use of digital devices of the sort that we all find are such an important part of our day-to-day lives, they all contain and involve minerals that have been extracted from the earth. Now, we can as a nation either decide to administer the extraction of those minerals in a sensible, pragmatic, and rational way or we can choose not to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, coming back to what this bill is about, effectively: it simply changes the existing purpose of the Crown Minerals Act as we have it now from promoting mineral extraction to \u201Cmanaging mineral extraction\u201D. Now, some might say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s not much of a change.\u201D, but actually it is. It\u2019s a very important and none too subtle change about the way Government thinks of mineral extraction. And we on this side of the House don\u2019t agree with this subtle and, frankly\u2014well, it\u2019s none too subtle; it\u2019s a blunt attack on the mineral extractions industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn my electorate of the beautiful Coromandel, we are fortunate to have a very good operation at OceanaGold. I\u2019ve had the benefit of visiting underground there on a number of occasions and I\u2019ve always been impressed with not only their environmental standards but the way they operate their business, the way it\u2019s conducted, and their genuine concern for the communities that they operate in and the way they conduct their business. That is a net benefit to us all. The good people of Waih\u012B, I think, by and large understand that. Waih\u012B is a mining town. Waih\u012B would not exist if it was not for mining, and it has done so for more than 100 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo we can, as I say, choose to carefully, prudently, and effectively manage mineral extraction under the Crown minerals legislation that we have or we can send none too subtle messages of the sort that this Government is intending to do, which actually says, \u201CNo, we don\u2019t appreciate your work. We don\u2019t value that. We don\u2019t encourage and promote. We just want to merely manage.\u201D Well, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s good enough. I don\u2019t think that sends the right messages to an important part of our economic sector that in my experience tries to do the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI understand that the Minister\u2014in fact, my colleague Stuart Smith has made it clear\u2014apparently has never been underground into a mining operation. I would have thought that would be a priority for her and something that, as involved as she is, she would have undertaken to do, because seeing is sometimes believing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo on this side of the House we are opposing this legislation. We think it sends the wrong messages. We think it is unhelpful, not useful, and we don\u2019t support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae260a7b444b43e093bc6038bd17cfa1\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002275f48bc45dfb476c9d194b72e45bbc72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275f48bc45dfb476c9d194b72e45bbc72\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Debbie Ngarewa-Packer\u2014the member needs to call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd0ebe4f59ea4e7da3a60d875eef3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd0ebe4f59ea4e7da3a60d875eef3ad8\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Kia ora. T\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. I stand to speak on behalf of Te Paati M\u0101ori in respect to the bill before us, the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, and understand the purposes is implementing the findings of the 2018 review. I note the providing iwi or hap\u016B, whose rohe are included, enabling annual meetings with Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, and making explicit that decision makers have regard to feedback from iwi and hap\u016B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ELook, there are a couple of aspects that we want to bring up in this debate, and that\u2019s starting with rangatiratanga. You know it, and we know it, as tangata whenua, that we have rights and interests. The Crown has acknowledged this every time they\u2019ve apologised for breaches of Te Tiriti and iwi settlements\u2014the theft of resources. And like today\u2014even those apologies are happening\u2014we\u2019re seeing that they\u2019re trying to improve legislation that hasn\u2019t addressed some of the Tribunal findings from the Wai claim 796, where it was found that M\u0101ori had Treaty interests in petroleum, arising from the loss of their land before 1937, and the expropriation of the Petroleum Act, and also the Crown\u2019s royalties and 11 percent ownership in Kupe gas field, which could have been included in settlements like Ng\u0101ruahine iwi\u2014in fact, Taranaki iwi katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo here we are today, being asked to support this proposition instead of what we should be doing, which is addressing the fact that there are changes to the block offer regime which are now out of date and not fit for purpose, especially if no ban on onshore exploration has been proposed, which iwi and hap\u016B have been discussing with the Government now for more than two years. While annual engagement reports, which iwi are supporting\u2014that is not a fundamental change or a big enough change that we needed to see happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThere need to be legislative backstops to enshrine the best practice of engagement with iwi throughout the entire permitting process, which includes a partnership approach with the Crown to agree on designated mining permit areas and collective decision making on planned work plans. We think there should have been an authentic partnership model for Taranaki specifically, who everyone seems to acknowledge are experts, but is way overdue. This could be a model for co-governance\u2014Oh! Dare I say\u2014and partnerships. There has been a complete missed opportunity to review the Crown Minerals Act in conjunction with the Resource Management Act (RMA) reform. And I know we\u2019ve said this before, but it could have included complexity of engagements in the artificial separation of permitting and environmental impact\u2014if we go back and remember, the original Crown Minerals Act and RMA were proposed as one Act, prior to 1991.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EFrom a kaitiaki perspective, I want to highlight that we should not be modernising an outdated Act but rather transitioning away from it completely. This would send a clear commitment and connection to climate change, our taiao change, and the overall transition agendas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge that the Government was bold to announce a ban on new offshore permits, but where is the ban on new permits onshore in Taranaki? We need to take a step back and look at a total integrated model, which is ultimately about moving forward with a clear transition away from fossil fuels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIn our opinion, this fails to bring regulation in line with the reality that oil and gas is a sunset industry, and the failure to reform the block offer system and failure to ban new onshore permits in Taranaki sit starkly in conflict with the stated commitments on climate and biodiversity. Based on those issues, we oppose this bill. What we need to see is changes that are really a step in the right direction, that need to be bold. Again, I repeat, while most of the provisions in the bill itself are sensible and should be supported, overall, it is lacking the ambition and vision that is needed to make the necessary transitions away from fossil fuels and towards real Crown partnerships with tangata whenua. Kia ora koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u002290c566da1798496c84d9cb3ed8c3316d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290c566da1798496c84d9cb3ed8c3316d\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to take a brief call on the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill at third reading. I just want to say a huge thankyou to the Minister, the Hon Dr Megan Woods, for also answering those questions in the committee stage as well and also to the select committee for their work in ushering this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EThis bill does a few things, and one of them, of which those across the House have also mentioned as well, is about making improvements to our permit licence holders, as well as permit applicants, to engage better with iwi and hap\u016B to ensure the engagement demonstrates their respect for the authority, mana, and local expertise. I think this is one way to make sure that we strengthen our relationships with local iwi, and leveraging off their knowledge and experience within that area as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EOne of those ways that we can do that is requiring permit holders to share annual reports on iwi engagement to relevant iwi and also for them to agree on that. So there are many things. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022132d7eb947354788813169167a144bff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022132d7eb947354788813169167a144bff\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand as the last speaker for the National Party in opposition to the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. For members of the public who may be listening in, this is the third reading, which means that after the completion of the debate before the House, this bill will go to the Governor-General for Royal assent for it to be passed into law. And the bill is going to pass into law because it has the numbers of the Government and\u2014anticipated\u2014the Green Party, all of whom have addressed the House this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EBy way of process, just before it came to the third reading, there was the committee of the whole House that reported back from the select committee, which was the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. The report back to the House from that committee was that they were unable to agree whether the bill as had been presented in its original form should pass, and on that basis recommendations were for further amendments to the bill. Now, I did not sit on that select committee; my colleagues Barbara Kuriger, Melissa Lee, Stuart Smith, and the Hon Michael Woodhouse did, and three of those members did, in parts, during the time that this bill was considered by the select committee. That bill was referred to the committee on 22 November last year. Public submissions were invited before the closing date of 23 January this year. There were 334 interest groups who did make written submissions and oral evidence was heard from 17.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe position that the National Party arrives at, and really the thrust of this bill\u2014which is an amendment to the Crown Minerals Act 1991\u2014is to enable greater flexibility for allocating and managing Crown-owned mineral rights, improve permit and licence holder engagement with iwi and hap\u016B, and clarify decommissioning-related obligations. So the National Party has expressed concern because the key element is a shift and a change in the purpose to the Crown Minerals Act. Therefore, clause 4, which is one of the amendments under the bill, is to alter the purpose of the principal Act, which will no longer include a requirement for the Crown and Minister to \u201Cpromote\u201D prospecting for, exploration for, and mining of Crown-owned minerals for the benefit of New Zealand. So it\u2019s to alter and amend the purpose of \u201Cto promote\u201D and instead, under the amendment, with this bill passing into law, require the Crown and Minister to \u201Cmanage\u201D prospecting for, exploration for, and mining of Crown-owned minerals for the benefit of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe main objection that the National Party has to this bill is that it will impact on Crown royalties that are drawn as a result of the promotion of licences for exploration for mining. And it may have been addressed in this House but I\u2019m going to recap because Crown royalties are a little bit like taxes and we have a Government here that is very keen on taxing New Zealanders in this time of a crisis of cost of living. So Crown royalties that are extracted under this bill\u2014this Government has been in power and had the luxury of having $51 million worth of royalties from Crown mineral extraction during the period of 2017 to 2021. Under this amendment, which will come into law, the Crown royalties will reduce significantly. To the year 2022, the Crown is estimated to receive just under $10 million in royalties from coal and mineral extraction, a significant reduction from the take of $51 million during the period of 2017 to 2021.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThis legislation will mean that the Crown will not promote mining and, hence, revenue from royalties will inevitably decrease. The impact of this amendment to the Crown Minerals Act is a reality for New Zealanders to be aware of. As the Reserve Bank has recently said, we are likely heading for a recession and Government debt is incredibly high. Royalties from Crown minerals are welcomed, have been welcomed under this Government, and are now going to be depleted and diminished, effectively reduced and extracted from the tax p\u016Btea\u2014or from the Crown kitty. So royalties from Crown minerals have been welcomed under this Government and have provided solid revenue for successive Governments. That will change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe other change that will come about\u2014and, again, it has an impact on the local economy during this time of a cost of living crisis. Let\u2019s take it back to local towns. I heard my colleague the Hon Scott Simpson reference Waih\u012B, known as a goldmining town previously\u2014historically. So, most of New Zealand\u2019s mines are situated in the regions. More than 4,700 people are employed in the sector, wages are high in the sector, and also the regional impact is significant in areas where there is mining. For example, mining is 21.3 percent of the GDP of Buller, on the West Coast of the South Island; 22.7 percent of Hauraki\u2019s GDP; and 30.8 percent of Waitaki\u2019s GDP. This bill will affect local communities and people with their jobs to provide for their families in this crisis, in a country where we have an endemic of a cost of living hitting us. So this is one of the significant reasons why the National Government is opposing this bill; if the Crown does not promote mining, as is in this legislation, our regional economies will suffer and those earning high-paying jobs will go overseas. That\u2019s just part of it\u2014the select committee report identifies the concerns expressed from the National Party. And in summary, to emphasise and reiterate that the National Party does have a concern and does have a lens and a protective blanket and cloak around environmental considerations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThis legislation also adds more bureaucracy and layers of consultation which will ultimately make it expensive but also tardy and delayed for business to be done. So it was interesting, part of the debate that I listened to from my office, not having been a member on the select committee to be present to the whole of this debate before the House, is that we had a member, the Hon Michael Woods\u2014and for the benefit of New Zealanders, the title \u201CHonourable\u201D is an indicator or signals that that member has served in a ministerial capacity as a Minister. So my colleague the Hon Michael Woodhouse sat on the select committee and has ministerial experience. The Hon Michael Woodhouse stood in this House earlier this afternoon and talked from his perspective and the Government\u2019s perspective that the \u201Cweasel words\u201D of the National Government\u2014the \u201Cweasel words\u201D; not honourable words to be expressed from an honourable member. But for the benefit, again, of members in this House and New Zealanders\u2014weasel words: words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading. There is nothing that\u2019s intentionally ambiguous or misleading about the National Party\u2019s opposition to this bill. And it\u2019s interesting that that member stood in this House but half an hour ago to apologise to the House for ambiguous statements\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022647ac99ce6fd4a12b47362d90664a209\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Hipango\u2014on topic, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229965b69e12ea4777b5dba423b8bfbc27\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, to say that it\u2019s all very well for a member to stand and rise in this House and cast aspersions towards the National Party, to assert that the position taken is one of being misleading and ambiguous\u2014it\u2019s most clear that the reason for the National Party\u2019s opposition to this bill is because of the economic impact it will have on regional communities, it will have on this country, and also that the party is very mindful of its environmental duties and responsibilities of care. In concluding, the National Party does not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u00226ef86252008545cfa1d8388da6f297f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ef86252008545cfa1d8388da6f297f3\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E And the Labour Party does, because it is really important that we make sure that we\u2019re doing the best for New Zealanders, that we are actually taking our foot off the pedal when it comes to our emissions. We need to give support to the agencies that help to decide how hard and how fast we go in this space, and that\u2019s what this bill is intending to do. Bringing iwi and hap\u016B into the decision-making process is really important; giving them the ability to call for reviews in that process is also really important. It has support from this side, it will become law, and I look forward to it. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e0ed4000892e4635bf09a699992fa624\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000608\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a88d39fb41c4003b2db1eb58645ddca\u0022\u003EWater Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269f055fa6c6f4f9594c686ef5c6a7164\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227a3003d031bb4e6590499e27024ee3d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a3003d031bb4e6590499e27024ee3d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I present a legislative statement on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ded7a42690804fd1957c558080f70d6e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dad495a5cc4f4332a08377ccf5fb8ceb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: That is excellent. I move, That the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of a suite of legislation designed to give effect to the water services reforms. It introduces an economic regulation and consumer protection regime with the Commerce Commission as regulator, which will ensure the new entities promote the long-term interests of consumers by providing services that are efficient, effective, and responsive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s water infrastructure and services are not meeting the needs of our communities in that the quality of service does not reflect what consumers demand. There has been long-term under-investment in water infrastructure, there are inefficient pricing practices and a lack of transparency around costs, and there are mounting concerns about the capability of the water services sector to deal with Government and community expectations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe Water Industry Commission for Scotland estimated the investment required to deal with these issues in New Zealand is between $120 billion and $185 billion. This investment needs to be made for the health and wellbeing of our water and our people, now and into the future. The water services reforms will ensure the costs paid by households remain at a reasonable level while these investments are undertaken. The new entities will provide the scale and operational efficiency to provide high-quality water services at a price that is much more affordable for New Zealanders in the years to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis bill will subject the new water services entities to an economic regulation and consumer protection regime with the Commerce Commission as the regulator. The commission has experience in implementing economic regulation in other utility sectors such as telecommunications, electricity, and fuel, as well as enforcing consumer protection legislation. A Water Services Commissioner will be appointed to ensure the new economic and consumer protection regulation role is given the focus and prominence it requires. The wider water services reforms will ensure that New Zealanders benefit from upgrades to water infrastructure. The bill complements the wider reform package by providing for economic regulation and consumer protection, including minimum quality standards and dispute resolution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their consideration of the bill. I would particularly like to acknowledge the chair, Ingrid Leary, and the former chair, Rachel Brooking. Thank you both for ensuring the bill undertook a robust and democratic process. Further, given that the committee was considering this bill and the Water Services Legislation Bill, I want to thank the committee for the extensive work\u2014and I do know it\u2019s very hard\u2014that went into considering submissions and providing recommendations on both of these bills at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe committee considered 136 written and 65 oral submissions on this bill. I thank those submitters for their thoughtful and extensive feedback\u2014hearing from the public is key to our democratic process. Every comment that submitters made was considered fully, and the resulting changes have significantly improved this bill. I would also like to thank members of Waikato-Tainui, Maniapoto, Raukawa, Te Arawa River iwi, Tuwharetoa, and all representatives of iwi that have participated in this process to date for their constructive and thoughtful engagement. It has resulted in improvements to the bill I present today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOn 7 June, the committee reported the bill back to the House, recommending several amendments which I endorse, and I would like to mention a few of those key amendments. The committee recommended an additional qualification for the Water Services Commissioner, who will be responsible for the commission\u2019s functions under the bill. We established this role to recognise the impact that water infrastructure has on water quality and the importance of Te Mana o te Wai. The committee also recommended that knowledge of Te Tiriti and its principles and perspectives of M\u0101ori and tikanga M\u0101ori should be added to the list of qualifying domains for the position of commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe committee made several recommendations to strengthen the commission\u2019s oversight of the entity\u2019s obligation to promote urban growth under the Water Services Entities Act 2022, including mandatory disclosure requirement relating to how an entity is fulfilling its obligation in relation to growth; ensuring the Minister and the commission take into account the obligations of the entities in relation to supporting and enabling planning processes, growth, and housing and urban development; providing for the commission to monitor compliance with the development code that entities are required to make under the Water Services Legislation Bill and provide enforcement mechanisms for contraventions; and making it explicit that a developer is a consumer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn supporting equity and fairness across the reforms, the committee recommended that the consumer dispute resolution service should be aimed at handling small disputes in a more accessible way than the courts. This involves allowing both parties to appeal, and capping compensation at $50,000 to enhance alignment with other schemes. The bill empowers the commission to establish minimum service standards through a service quality code, with the committee suggesting inclusion of a non-exhaustive list of code topics for improved guidance during its development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAdditionally, the committee recommended that the commission prioritise safeguarding vulnerable consumers\u2019 interests in the delivery of water services. Thanks again to the committee\u2019s efforts. I think this bill will provide greater benefits to New Zealanders. Continuing to progress this bill will ensure that water services are meeting the needs of our people and our communities for generations to come. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226d150f6c7c5c4a508af438387e0b2b6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d150f6c7c5c4a508af438387e0b2b6e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00228c910ee196114051850707bc779d2f1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c910ee196114051850707bc779d2f1f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Oh, this has been a disastrous process. We\u2019ve had the two water services bills and now we\u2019re into this one, the third one\u2014the treble. I think there\u2019s been a lot talked about the water services bill today. If people are beaming into this wonderful debate this afternoon, we\u2019ve been debating under urgency because the Government\u2019s got its timing all wrong and it\u2019s shoving through all this legislation. We\u2019ve been doing it this morning on the water services bill for, oh, probably at least four hours, I think\u2014I\u2019m just looking at my colleagues here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo this is the last bill in the triumvirate of water services rationalisation proposed by the Government, and, you know, it\u2019s incredibly contentious. The Minister talked about savings of $120 to $180 billion, dreamt up by someone in Scotland. There\u2019s a lot of dispute, a lot of economic dissension on those estimates. We asked other people to be involved in it. I know there are other economic agencies who have looked at it on behalf of councils. They considerably dispute those figures put forward by the Scottish regulator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis wonderful thought that you can go ahead and spend millions on creating new offices in Auckland, which one of the entities already has\u2014committed significant amounts of money setting up a new office even though Watercare is just parked up in Newmarket in big new offices. No, that\u2019s not good enough for one of these ones\u2014they\u2019re going to have new ones, brand flash new CEOs, and because they\u2019ll have more employees and all that sort of stuff, they\u2019re going to be paid more; you can guarantee it, if this ever came to light. All this cost, this wonderful cost, and, you know, there\u2019s multimillions of costs being incurred in setting this up, let alone just the regulatory process\u2014multimillions, if not tens of millions, that have been involved in this\u2014and somehow, miraculously, the Minister\u2019s trying to claim in his speech that, you know what, everyone\u2019s going to be better off. Well, we don\u2019t agree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESome of the submitters were very thoughtful, very professional, and actually very experienced in these matters. I think the first issue with the water changes is the impact on councils. Not only is there the transfer of ownership of those water assets out of councils back into a new entity with all this diffused ownership structure\u2014regional committees and all that sort of stuff\u2014it does give rise to who owns these assets. No one, through all this process\u2014and I\u2019ve been involved in it right from the start\u2014not one official, not one Government Minister, has ever been able to explain to me who will own these assets. If you look at the definition of ownership in a share\u2014the legislation talks about a share\u2014you must be able to exert some control over that share. That may be through governance, through management, or by financial support\u2014all that sort of stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, the structure\u2014that diffused and confused structure\u2014that the Government has come up with, someone has dreamt it up on some whiteboard in the bowels of somewhere, is so convoluted that no one can point to me and say who will own those shares. If you cannot exert control or some form of influence, if you can\u2019t do all of those three things, if you look at the definition of a shareholding\u2014that means that you do not have control. Where these assets will park up on someone\u2019s balance sheet, I am totally unclear on, even today, even though I come from the financial services sector and know a little bit about these things. That\u2019s the first thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EStandard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s\u2014we started to push back on some of this stuff. Standard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s directors (S\u0026amp;P)\u2014after we got through a whole lot of mired conversations that we didn\u2019t have any clarity on, suddenly the S\u0026amp;P directors came out and said this will have an impact on the credit ratings of some of our councils. Again, this is a significant thing for New Zealanders, and significant for residents within those boundary areas, because their council\u2019s going to be paying more for debt and it\u2019s going to be more cost, and, of course, we\u2019re going to see the assets transferred off their balance sheet. It is a significant asset transfer from one entity into some other entity with this relationship that\u2019s really bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing we\u2019ve heard about was the entrenchment provisions, where the Government tried to very sneakily make sure that these things could never be privatised. Even though we as a party, National, said we weren\u2019t going to privatise it, the Government tried to sneak through a provision around entrenchment, around stopping privatisation, that wasn\u2019t needed. It was totally uncalled for and, actually, it was against the parliamentary rules, where you need to have a supermajority to make those sort of long lasting changes an intention of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut this bill itself is all about economic regulation. Of course, this is one where\u2014guess what!\u2014the Labour Government have gone overboard yet again. This is one heck of a piece of legislation. Normally, when you set up regulatory authorities to look after the water industry, the starting proposition is that you have a whole lot of commercial operators. I know those people over there\u2014I\u2019m looking at the Labour Party members\u2014all hate the commercial sector. But, normally, you\u2019d have a whole lot of private sector organisations out there competing and trying to rip people off\u2014well, that\u2019s what their view is. That\u2019s when you put in place very strong economic regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EHey\u2014guess what!\u2014if we listen to the Labour members, hey, these things are going to be wonderful; they\u2019re going to have all this influence on Aboriginal groups, we\u2019re going to have everyone having a go at it and telling them what they should be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022296649164a9c4d018bba519b709309e4\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Kumbaya.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f878e4c0fe4841e296fb34e54e53b36c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CKumbaya\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the right word. And, of course, if that proposition is to be accepted, why do you need such heavy-hitting economic regulation? Because these guys never know when to say \u201CNo\u201D. It is not appropriate, Mr Bennett, because no one across the other side sits back and goes, \u201CDo we actually need this? Is there another way of doing economic regulation? Is there a way\u2014do we actually think about the intent of these organisations? Are they being set up to rip people off?\u201D Well, if you take the Labour view, and the Minister\u2019s view just before\u2014no, they\u2019re not. They\u2019re wonderful. They\u2019re going to solve all our issues. But we\u2019ve ended up with regulations that no doubt we\u2019re going to get into. [Holds up bill] That\u2019s the book\u2014that\u2019s the book. And there\u2019s regulations up the wazoo. What we shouldn\u2019t be doing is\u2014actually, all entities need to be regulated to some extent, but the extent of regulations in here is an absolute overkill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThen\u2014just realising that time is ticking on\u2014I think the other thing is the need to determine who the regulator is. The regulator is someone who is going to be set up under the Commerce Commission\u2014they\u2019re going to be an appointment of the commissioner. The thing I find interesting is the requirements of the commissioner, and I\u2019m just going from memory here. First of all, they must have expertise in the water services industry. Well, I think, if you\u2019re going to be a commissioner, that would be a pretty good start point. In the next point, it then goes on to say, well, you could also be someone with experience in any other industry\u2014not just one but any other industry. Not just the water industry but any other industry. That means you can be a politician like Mr Nash, who\u2019s just joined us. When he leaves here, he can be a commissioner because he\u2019s got experience in other stuff. You\u2019d be a great water commissioner because, at the moment, you\u2019d meet the requirements, Mr Nash. Or you could have experience in commerce\u2014you\u2019ve got that too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0bf70658b7648b492b6aef9223cb0c9\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, no, Mr Bayly. I hate to interrupt your flow\u2014\u201Cyou\u201D is me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215da5d5744124b4ebed095354f982608\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah, sorry. But Mr Nash, we were talking about here. Mr Nash\u2014he\u2019s got experience in commerce, he\u2019s got experience in economics. Have you got experience in law? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd8e5aa422349a0bc752bcf664cb5c6\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: I have!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221469316214b44584aa33d52188721d34\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Nash\u2014and accountancy. Mr Nash. I reckon Mr Nash should be the next water commissioner, because he doesn\u2019t have to have experience in the water services industry. Mr Nash has come out of the forestry industry, but that does not matter, because you can have experience in any other industry. That\u2019s how ridiculous this is. This is ridiculous. Put a common-sense lens over this. This is why the Labour Government has got into such problems, because these people don\u2019t sit down and apply a bit of common sense. Anyway, I\u2019m looking forward to the committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00225765524ff38b467cb4841532cac6aa60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225765524ff38b467cb4841532cac6aa60\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very disappointed that the previous speaker wasn\u2019t as enthusiastic about the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill as he was in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, where he actually contributed quite a bit to some of the substantial changes, including making the dispute resolution more robust and that it proactively take into account the need to identify classes of vulnerable consumers and take their interests into account. Also there is a change to clause 74 where complaints can be taken by consumer groups. We think this also increases the consumer protections in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe really interesting discussion that I thought the previous member would pick up on is around the presumption in the bill when it came to us that there would be price quality regulation. Now, that presumption is still mainly there and that\u2019s good. It sends the right signals around price and quality to the market, but it also means that there can be baseline data gathered and that the commissioner in its determinations as it gets that data can decide in the case of each of those entities whether price quality regulation is needed or at what point. Now, I think that\u2019s a really useful and flexible change to the legislation, because what it means is it doesn\u2019t assume price quality. There\u2019s a signal to ensure that the providers act appropriately, but in the event that more competition comes into the market just through the other interventions and certainly through the exposure of data that will be provided through information disclosure, there is some flexibility for the Commerce Commission to respond accordingly. That\u2019s good regulation. It\u2019s something that Mr Bayly contributed to robustly in the discussions and it\u2019s a shame not to see that reflected in the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022e93edf1995e14f0c9ce1527c052ac372\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e93edf1995e14f0c9ce1527c052ac372\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It is lovely to hear Ingrid Leary, the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, complimenting my colleague Andrew Bayly. He is very passionate about these topics and no doubt he actually wanted to improve the bill and I acknowledge the chair and thank her for acknowledging the Opposition\u2019s contribution to make the bill better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo when I was listening to Andrew Bayly, apart from going half deaf because he\u2019s very loud, very loud\u2014ha, ha! I am just always very in awe of his passion when he speaks on these topics and what he reminded me of\u2014as I\u2019m a person who comes from the visual sort of industry before my time in Parliament\u2014when he was talking about how this bill actually is wasting a lot of time in terms of flash offices or whatever, I just had this picture of an empty office space down in the viaduct when the former Minister of Transport actually decided that he wanted to create a walking and cycling bridge and he actually rented a big office space and paid couple of million dollars for it and it sat empty, and then the policy got cancelled. That\u2019s such a waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAs Mr Bayly said, on this side of the House we are opposing this bill. On economic regulations, we actually believe in sound economic and commercial regulation, including that economic regulation and consumer protection is actually paramount. We really believe in that, but we believe that it has to be for the right water services entity and the local councils that own the water assets, not the three waters bill. In a cost of living crisis, I think it is paramount that the Government becomes like a parent, in a sense, in a household, that they lead by example. And when the Government is seen as not being very cautious or responsible in the manner that they actually spend taxpayers\u2019 money, I think people, citizens, will be very disappointed and it is not actually a good example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo the Water Services Entity Bill\u2014not this one, but the Water Services Entity Bill passed its third reading in December of 2020. This particular bill, the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill, is \u201Cto provide the independent commercial scrutiny of the entities.\u201D\u2014and I\u2019m reading from the bill notes. It actually establishes a new set of economic regulations on the entities and consumer protection for the water services sector with the Commerce Commission as the regulator, with the appointment of a new Water Commissioner. I think that\u2019s literally what Mr Bayly was actually talking about, that anyone with experience but without necessarily having worked in the water industry can actually become the commissioner. That seems a little odd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe reason why I say that is recently in this House\u2014not so recently\u2014when we were debating another bill in relation to the RNZ and TVNZ merger, they had consultants who were actually brought in to help the officials and members of Parliament who were debating the issue. Not one of the consultants who were brought in actually was an expert in media, nor public media or broadcasting. That would seem really ridiculous that people who the Government who spends taxpayer money is actually consulting had absolutely no experience in the subject matter that we were actually writing legislation about and debating in the Chamber. This seems like another one where just anybody could potentially be the commissioner, and that is a little bit worrying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThere are actually several regulatory impact statements that I actually would like to quote, if I may. The regulatory impact statement states that there is a huge transitional uncertainty created because of the reform, and I quote, \u201COver time it may become evident that the scope or form of economic regulation is not in the best interest of water consumers.\u201D is actually one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe other one is that in the regulatory impact statement officials have actually warned that changes can be put on tenants via higher rents with substantial risks\u2014and some prices increase significantly due to under investment and uncertainty. And when you actually create a mega entity, actually four entities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c223b498464ae9aef66d021dce06d1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Ten.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228416c6ebf8574aaa93c365bf08c4621e\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, 10\u201410 entities. Obviously, I wasn\u2019t part of the select committee. I think that when you actually consider that, it\u2019s a humongous cost to the country. And when a lot of the consultations and public consultations through the select committee where people actually feel that their views and their opinions actually didn\u2019t matter, because of the way that the Government seemed to be ramming legislation through this House, it is rather disappointing. Not just disappointing. It is quite shocking that we are here under urgency debating yet another water services bill in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWhen you actually talk to local government and people who are in the regions, they actually feel that their assets have been stolen by Government. They want to own their own assets and they need the Government to assist them. Some of them have great water services, but there are those that who actually need help. For that, we will make sure that we have the right legislation when we are in Government after 14 October to make sure that the people of New Zealand can rely on decent and good water services legislation rather than this three waters legislation that this Government has produced. On that note, I do not commend this bill; I oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0789b03fccc41cbb43706a7a85adb33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0789b03fccc41cbb43706a7a85adb33\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is with great pleasure that, having to see these water bills through to where they are\u2014to know that, now, we can say to ratepayers that not only will their rates go down and cost less from what they would be, we are also making sure that we have the regulator to make sure that the charges that are put on our water consumers are absolutely on point. It has been a long time coming. I know that in my electorate in Hawke\u2019s Bay, the four councils that are part of this are absolutely looking forward to seeing affordable water finally delivered for our region. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002263507d9614664046bcb945eecd827206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263507d9614664046bcb945eecd827206\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The ACT Party has a differing view. It\u2019s here in the report back to the House from the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I do want to thank the officials for the efforts they made to respond to the many questions that the ACT Party had about the legislation. I also want to acknowledge the hard work of Ingrid Leary as chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, because she had a very difficult job to do\u2014to inquire about all the flaws in the legislation, which was legislation proposed by her own Labour Party, and do it in a way that was even-handed and allowed for the best possible discovery of the issues with this bill. So it\u2019s wonderful to see that in Parliament, through parliamentary process, there can be an even-handed approach to assessing the costs and benefits of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EOn balance, ACT will be opposing the legislation but we do agree there\u2019s a need for an economic or infrastructure regulator. What is the problem to solve? The problem to solve is that for decades local government has failed to invest in infrastructure in a way that keeps up with growth and maintains the assets that they own and that the Local Government Act already requires them to maintain and to provide for, to make provisions for, to renew and replace as infrastructure ages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo the ACT Party engaged constructively throughout the entire three waters reform process and we continue to engage constructively with officials, with submitters who came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, in an attempt to discover how to make a regulator of infrastructure assets work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, the problem is no action has been taken by this Government or previous Governments to enforce the law. When it comes to the Local Government Act, councils have not been following the law. Some of them might know where the pipes are broken. They might know where the waste-water pump stations are failing and leaking into waterways. But the Government\u2014central government\u2014hasn\u2019t used any carrots or any sticks to get them to follow the Local Government Act provisions, which require them to maintain their assets and make provisions. And yet here we have a whole reform programme designed to solve a problem that the law says should already be solved. Remarkable. Imagine that. So the current system is not up to scratch. This Government\u2019s reforms will not help. In fact, they\u2019re likely to make it worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe Government has established the Commerce Commission in the role, an awkward role, of having to be a market regulator that\u2019s not just regulating a market\u2014in fact, they\u2019re not regulating a market at all. There is no market for a monopoly water services provider. There is no market for somebody to come and lay an alternative water pipe in your street and supply water to your house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis is a monopoly, so the Commerce Commission is required to regulate a public service and regulate infrastructure\u2014infrastructure quality, mind you; not infrastructure investment, not infrastructure pricing, not weighted average cost of capital but the quality of infrastructure provided for the money that water service entities will allocate. But they don\u2019t have the competency of the tools to carry out that role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard that they\u2019re proposing to hire up to 25 people to establish a unit to act in this regulatory role, and yet there other organisations that already do this within Government. The Office of the Auditor-General already audits local government, councils, against their long-term plan and whether they are meeting their objectives, whether they are in fact investing in infrastructure to meet growth, fulfilling their obligations to their communities, and doing what they say they do. The Auditor-General often reveals that they\u2019re not, and yet the Government hasn\u2019t taken any action against local councils, as I\u2019ve pointed out, under the Local Government Act, to rectify that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut the most awkward thing of all for the Commerce Commission and for the people who work there, is that this piece of legislation requires them to become a regulator of tikanga M\u0101ori. How is it possible that if you\u2019re an economic regulator and an infrastructure regulator, you are required to determine whether a water service entity is respecting the Treaty, giving effect to Treaty obligations and Te Mana o te Wai? Well, how on earth are they supposed to do that? Te Mana o te Wai relies on a spiritual belief in mauri, or the life force of the water\u2014water comes from some heaven and ends on Earth, and has a life force. I mean, anyone who\u2019s seen the Star Wars trilogy or the prequels or the sequels would be familiar with the term \u201Clife force\u201D but who knew that in 2023 an economic regulator of water infrastructure is going to be required to work out whether water companies are fulfilling their obligations not only to work out whether these entities are meeting their Treaty settlement obligations\u2014potentially as having some function of the Crown\u2014but also whether they\u2019re taking care of the life force of the water. As far as I was aware, as a civil engineer, infrastructure is pipes, manholes, drinking-water treatment plants, waste-water treatment plants, stormwater overflows, culverts, and all of those things. The water that flows in them is only fit to drink, fit to flush, or fit to use for industry. As far as I\u2019m aware, there is no engineering of scientific test for the life force or the mauri of the water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhile it is entirely acceptable that one culture in New Zealand believes that water has a life force, it is completely unacceptable to require infrastructure regulators or economic regulators to have to take account of spiritual matters when they\u2019re working out whether people are paying a fair price for water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we get to the next problem with incorporating Te Mana o te Wai in the way water infrastructure is managed. Te Mana o te Wai, through applying a life-force test, actually means that instead of just fixing up the pipes and the waste-water discharges to meet an ecological test\u2014are the fish in the stream OK; is it safe to swim in, is the water safe to drink?\u2014they will have to platinum-plate, cultural-plate a tikanga cost on to water infrastructure. Nowhere else in the developed world would a society impose this cost on to households, on to business, and on to New Zealanders present and future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill is a recipe for a decline in New Zealand society. ACT supports the three waters reform objectives: to deliver high-quality water infrastructure to enable growth, to enable land to be serviced for more affordable housing. There\u2019s no good in putting through legislation that entrenches excessive costs in providing water infrastructure to new housing, new subdivisions, or to parts of our existing cities where we want to build up, say, around public transport hubs or around town centres. It\u2019s very, very expensive already to build network infrastructure in those locations without adding a spiritual dimension to decision making around water. This will be impossible for the Commerce Commission to regulate. They\u2019re going to spend time and money, they\u2019re going to hire people, and unfortunately for the Commerce Commission and any individuals who take up these roles, should there be a change of Government, this bill, the parts of it that relate to tikanga and Te Mana o te Wai and all of those metaphysical things will be repealed and those roles will be made redundant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just ACT saying that this piece of legislation doesn\u2019t work. I can quote from Water Magazine, the July/August issue, where a gentleman by the name of Andrew Stevenson, who\u2019s worked for the Commerce Commission and is a specialist in regulating infrastructure, says that water services providers will have to publish asset management plans which actually don\u2019t meet the commission\u2019s specifications as set out in the bill. They won\u2019t align, these asset management plans required by this legislation; they won\u2019t align with local government or similar financial systems as the regulator is focused on different outcomes and applies different principles. Imagine that\u2014three years of talking about water reform and this legislation, the last bill in a series of four, pushed through by Labour today under urgency, doesn\u2019t even address the most basic issues about how you align the need to invest in infrastructure with the regulator whose job it is to oversee whether that investment lines up with the land use planning and with the need to provide water infrastructure for affordable homes and so businesses can access water for business. We will oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00221736b2c3ae9b4b7d9dd1e92a4a51da39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221736b2c3ae9b4b7d9dd1e92a4a51da39\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. The Green Party is supporting this bill, because one of the fundamental tenets of the whole reform is that if you create larger entities, they will be more efficient, they\u2019ll be able to borrow more. So there will be less burden on councils and a recognition in the supporting documents that councils, because of rates and the community response to rates, have often been reluctant to raise the rates or spend much rates on infrastructure. With these bigger entities, that obstacle and constraint is seen to go. So therefore, with bigger entities you really do need a strong consumer protection and advocacy regime, and mechanisms for resolving disputes between consumers and the entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what this bill provides. As others have noted, there was good debate in the Finance and Expenditure Committee. And like others, I acknowledged the chair, Ingrid Leary, and the former chair, Rachel Brooking, for their leadership on this and encouraging that degree of debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker talked a lot about the Commerce Commission. The Commerce Commission regulates industries like the telcos, like gas, and so it\u2019s entirely appropriate that the economic regulation should come under the Commerce Commission, and with a specific Water Services Commissioner. The committee, in considering the bill, included some additional criteria about the expertise that that commissioner should have. So the Greens are confident that that person will have the specialist knowledge that Melissa Lee talked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere are other improvements to the bill that occurred through the select committee process, in terms of\u2014there was some concern that water services entities in the form of Watercare had not always been as responsive to developers\u2019 requests for new infrastructure. So there are specific new provisions in the bill which have a dispute resolution process around developers\u2019 requests for infrastructure. But the Green Party really believes that the commission and the Water Services Commissioner have got to look very closely at things like private plan changes, ad hoc requests for subdivision development and the infrastructure to facilitate that, to ensure that is not imposing big costs on the entities from putting new services in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn some of the previous debates, members have referred to a number of boil-water notices as justifying the need for the establishment of the entities. Those boil-water notices in Canterbury are often the result of inappropriate agricultural intensification and a failure to control land use, so the water services entities won\u2019t in themselves have that regulatory power over land use. That\u2019s a key issue for the new regional planning committee, through their new plans, and of course regional councils under the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe really do need to protect source waters in order to reduce the costs for entities, and reduce the cost of the provision of services. If they have to substantially treat a lot of water, run osmosis filters and the like, that will increase the charge to consumers and it will then be difficult for the dispute resolution service, for the tribunal that\u2019s being set up there, to actually have those charges reduced, because they go back to a fundamental inappropriate management of land use and an unnecessary contamination of water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe bill was significantly improved through the select committee, through the service quality code that\u2019s now proposed in terms of consumer complaints, the way in which the dispute resolution service would work, and also the establishment of a separate consumer advocacy agency, recognising that that was not really the normal responsibility of the Commerce Commission. So it is a bill that we really need with this economic regulation, and consumer protection with the establishment of the 10 new entities, and the Green Party supports it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022b057ffb699e84f75bcf91dd49fdaa3a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b057ffb699e84f75bcf91dd49fdaa3a0\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Hello. It\u2019s really nice to take this call and to be able to actually express my respect for the honourable member that\u2019s just sat down, the Hon Eugenie Sage, who is in her last few weeks in this House and she is still tenaciously contributing in everything, and we are really grateful for what she has done, including on this committee. It was a very constructive discussion over this bill in the Finance and Expenditure Committee and it was quite a creative one. We really thought about the issues, particularly with regard to power imbalance. One of the things that came out of that was a really strong discussion about the role of the Consumer Advocacy Council in making sure that consumers were protected but also the Commerce Commission\u2019s role in doing so. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d23dfbcb5b064394a4925b15938b320b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d23dfbcb5b064394a4925b15938b320b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on Joseph Mooney for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002230beea70ec994abd83f149d99c6d251a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230beea70ec994abd83f149d99c6d251a\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise for a brief call on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. It\u2019s not one that I have been on the Finance and Expenditure Committee for, but I will make some comments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224360b89dba604d159dcf58af5ef5ed19\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019ve missed out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cfda4f0480243d38d2c5d300793f2c5\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in respect of this. I\u2019ve \u201Cmissed out\u201D, I\u2019ve heard from the other side, from my colleague Rachel Brooking, I think. But, look, the National Party does not support this bill. The National Party will repeal and replace three waters, including this one. We do believe in sound economic and commercial regulation, including economic regulation and consumer protection, but for the right water services entities and local councils that own the waters. It\u2019s an important point: the local councils that own the waters, not three waters, not these mega-entities that are going to be part of this proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting, if you\u2019re reading the departmental disclosure statement, which notes that the three waters service delivery reforms will result in significant changes for the water sector, with the creation of four water service entities that will serve as 85 percent of New Zealanders, that it does say, \u201CWe anticipate that there will be some uncertainty for the entities about what the new water service entities will inherit. They will inherit various systems and processes and water service assets in varying conditions. We therefore expect that the water service entities will need time to gain comfort with the new structure of the sector, their own internal processes, their assets, and their regulatory requirements. It is also possible that this uncertainty could lead to some water service entities acting too cautiously, focusing on compliance with little regard to efficiency in an effort to avoid any risk contrary to the provisions of the Act.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just pause on that point to note that this is one of a trilogy of different bills that are quite significant in and of themselves and have had significant changes over the course of the last year or so as the Labour Government has pushed through this three waters proposal that they are now enacting into law shortly before an election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, one of the problems with this very significant piece of work is that it has pushed this through the select committee in shortened time frames, which has given little opportunity for many of the affected communities and parties to actually make substantive submissions and to iron out the significant and substantial difficulties that have been identified with these bills. Frankly, it is not good lawmaking to push through such a significant piece of work without getting sufficient feedback from the communities who will be affected by this. The fundamental challenge and problem is that this is shifting the assets from those communities who have built them up over many generations into a completely new model and then expecting that there\u2019s going to be an economic benefit from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI note this point which I started with in the departmental disclosure statement that the uncertainty about these new processes may lead or could lead, as was identified here, to some water services acting cautiously, focusing on compliance, with little regard to efficiency. Obviously, one of the main points that has been used to push this through is that it supposedly will be more efficient and, therefore, will be less costly. However, that appears to be unlikely, as this is likely to be more complex and more costly, and that is, unfortunately, the last thing that New Zealanders need right now in a cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo this is one of a number of actually very complex pieces of legislation that is going to take a huge amount of work for people to try and get their heads around. But I will say that there is an election coming up very shortly and there will be an opportunity for New Zealanders to vote for a new Government, and I can say that if it\u2019s a National-led Government, this will be repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2104d3eb2de4ce1a40ff6a7f7ddc4c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2104d3eb2de4ce1a40ff6a7f7ddc4c0\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a short call on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. Can I just begin by pushing back a little on the previous speaker, who claimed there was a truncated process here. This bill was introduced to the House in December 2022. It is now eight months later, and we are considering it for its final stages. So I just want to push back that there hasn\u2019t been considerable analysis and consultation on this bill over the last few months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis bill is a critical part of our water reform programme. It\u2019s important that with the introduction, obviously, of the affordable waters reform, we have a system to ensure that economic regulation is in place to protect consumers. I note that the economic regulation regime that we\u2019re introducing through this bill is similar to the existing economic regulation regimes that are under Part 4 of the Commerce Act, which regulates electricity line services, gas pipeline services, and specified airport services. The approach is also similar to the regulation of fibre fixed-line access services under the Telecommunications Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis bill will complement the drinking-water safety and regulation oversight that\u2019s provided by the water regulator, Taumata Arowai. It will ensure that consumers are protected through our reform. It\u2019s an excellent bill, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u00227a5f938cfdd24786a74c42b75a034520\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a5f938cfdd24786a74c42b75a034520\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure to take a short call on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill in this second reading. This bill is part of the wider water services reforms launched by the Government in July 2020. It\u2019s absolutely long overdue. It will reduce rates for our households and it will be well received by the people of Waimakariri in particular. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2518cc275c6456aa7eb37c184e3f7c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2518cc275c6456aa7eb37c184e3f7c7\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to take a call on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill\u2014and I had to read that because I\u2019ve just this minute got it in my hand, essentially. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EAll this suite of bills around three waters have come about from what occurred in Havelock North a few years ago now. It was a terrible event, and I think we all agree on that, but, essentially, that came about because the Ministry of Health weren\u2019t doing a great job of regulating and inspecting water right across the country, effectively. In fact, there were very few prosecutions at all from them over the years, and, as Havelock North showed us, there was a need for oversight and some rigour in that area. That was a very poorly managed wellhead. Anyone who\u2019s had anything to do with wells will know that you have to keep stock away from those things, and it is not only the management around that wellhead but the way the well has been secured around the ground itself is also very important, and that was clearly lacking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThat was a terrible event, so something had to be done, and there\u2019s no doubt about that. Everybody agrees about that. However, this suite of bills has gone way too far. There\u2019s regulatory overreach and they\u2019ve gone way beyond the safety issue that triggered these bills to come into being. While this one was introduced in December 2022, I believe, we are now rushing it through its last stages in urgency, and you\u2019d have to wonder why, or I certainly wonder why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ERushed legislation is seldom good legislation. There are often occasions when it has to be done, like with the Christchurch earthquakes or like with the Kaik\u014Dura earthquake, when there was a real need that had to be addressed immediately. But often those are very short-term pieces of legislation where we come back later and do a better job. But this legislation is meant to be the first and final, but it\u2019s riddled with holes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI mean, some of the issues in this around all the committees\u2014I heard my colleagues earlier on in the day talking about all of the problems with them. It\u2019s quite shocking, really, on some of them. For example, the regulatory impact statement states that there is huge transitional uncertainty created because of these water reforms: \u201COver time, it may become evident that the scope or form of economic regulation is not in the best interests of water consumers.\u201D Well, that\u2019s the whole point of this legislation as being in the best interests of water consumers, and yet, clearly, the regulatory impact statement sees a real risk there that this is not in the best interests of water consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement also warned that changes can be put on tenants via higher rents, with substantial risks and it says that some prices could increase significantly due to under-investment and uncertainty. These are mega-monopolies that are going to be set up to manage water. Now, the Commerce Commission will have a role to play in that, and we know that with the lines companies, for example, they come underneath the Commerce Commission\u2019s purview to make sure that they don\u2019t gold-plate investments and, indeed, that they don\u2019t under-invest in their assets, and that whatever they spend, of course, goes back to the consumers in the form of fees. But this does not give us any comfort that these mega-monopolies are actually going to do a very good job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s really overregulation, but the issue that I think really upsets people, or grinds their gears, if you like, is some of this stuff around the mauri of the water and the Treaty requirement for the Commerce Commission. I want to touch on this. Look, I totally get and respect the Treaty, and I totally get and respect M\u0101ori views on things, but the mauri of the water and so on is included in this bill. You can\u2019t measure the mauri, and so if you can\u2019t measure it, I don\u2019t know how you can manage it. So that\u2019s a real problem for us, because we want legislation that works, and I would wager there\u2019ll be different definitions of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI mean, this is, essentially, vitalism. Most cultures\u2014almost all cultures\u2014had a form of this in part of their development, and then they\u2019ve moved on from that and embraced science, which we pretty much work on today. So is that better? Well, it is from a regulatory and a legislative point of view. What people\u2019s personal beliefs are is their business, quite frankly, and I accept that and celebrate it. But we have to make laws. We have to make legislation that New Zealanders have to live by and will have to pay bills upon, and, essentially, this legislation puts so much uncertainty into it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Commission will have a huge job trying to control these entities to ensure that New Zealanders are not being charged too much and that these entities are investing the right amount, but it has to have regard to the Treaty. Well, how does that actually affect how they are going to invest, or ensure that they aren\u2019t under-investing? I don\u2019t get that. I\u2019m not aware of the Commerce Commission having any Treaty requirements that I\u2019m aware of, and I\u2019ve certainly looked at it a fair bit around the energy sector, so I imagine\u2014I haven\u2019t seen any reference to it, so I don\u2019t think it\u2019s there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ELook, I get that we want to have a New Zealand flavour on all of our legislation, and that\u2019s good to a point, but we have to be practical about these things. So I do not support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u00226542cf7d8408467697b2199784fbc098\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226542cf7d8408467697b2199784fbc098\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a call, the last call on this second reading, and I just want to take a moment to thank the select committee. It was obviously a robust process and they made some great changes to this bill that will ensure that we have good, strong regulation and consumer protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI am a little confused though, that people are worried about having the inclusion of Te Ao M\u0101ori or matauranga M\u0101ori or, you know, that you can\u2019t actually make good economic decisions and still consider Te Ao M\u0101ori. I challenge the other side of the House to go and have a little look at our M\u0101ori economy that\u2019s worth $70 billion; it\u2019s growing, it\u2019s resilient, and it\u2019s global. I don\u2019t think that this is a bad thing for a commissioner to have access to, and because of that, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec35672350f544bea83d0c028a919283\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec35672350f544bea83d0c028a919283\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f60c5860004149c1a5a1cf593b25a8c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Production Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000701\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224c279d338581424482d87651fb195afd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c279d338581424482d87651fb195afd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002247ae6f4fe1644f6d9d6482d34cddc241\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a9349e6590c4a65af2bef847ae4d158\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00220337a8e754a54ee58ec0178c5691bfbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220337a8e754a54ee58ec0178c5691bfbc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. We come first to the debate on Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224945c9b89f2e44cf8b769de9e9dc5937\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224945c9b89f2e44cf8b769de9e9dc5937\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought it would be useful, just whilst we have a chance, to just say a few introductory comments on the bill. Obviously, this is the last of the pieces of the puzzle to ensure that New Zealanders get safe, affordable, and reliable water services that support good health in a sustainable environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe aim of this bill and the other bills is to improve New Zealand\u2019s water services system, which is made up of drinking water, waste water, and, of course, stormwater. We know that up to $185 billion in infrastructure is needed over the next 30 years to address historic under-investment. The increased size and scale of these water entities is the key to attracting this level of investment, and this reform will ensure that water infrastructure and services are planned, maintained, and delivered so that these critical services are affordable and fit for purpose. This bill establishes the Commerce Commission to oversee the economic regulation and consumer protection regime for the water entities and this will ensure that consumers directly benefit from these reforms and the delivery of affordable and high-quality water services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBefore I draw the committee\u2019s attention to some of the more notable features, I do want to repeat my thanks to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for its scrutiny of the bill and its considered amendments, and all those people who submitted on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe affordable water reforms brought to light issues in the water sector that are often associated with critical infrastructure systems that have natural monopoly characteristics. These include service quality not reflecting community expectations, long-term under-investment in infrastructure, inefficient pricing that lacked transparency, and concerns about the capability of the sector to respond to consumer demands. It\u2019s important that New Zealanders receive water services that meet their expectations now and into the future. For these reasons, this bill establishes an economic regulation and consumer protection regime, with the Commerce Commission as regulator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis regime is an integral part of the water reforms to protect New Zealanders from the sort of harms that can occur when essential service providers have substantial market power and consumers are unable to switch providers. How the bill addresses this is that alongside Taumata Arowai\u2019s focus on water quality, the economic regulation and consumer protection regime will promote the long-term interests of consumers in water services and ensure the new entities provide high-quality services at affordable prices. It will put protections in place for consumers so they can expect high-quality service when they contact the water supply with a query or complaint, clear communications about network outages, and transparency from their supplier about how water services are built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Commission is a high-performing regulator with experience regulating other essential infrastructure services and ensuring consumers are treated fairly. A Water Services Commissioner will be established within the commission to reflect the unique nature of the water sector and the vital importance of water, guided by the fundamental principle of Te Mana o te Wai. The scope of the Consumer Advocacy Council will also be broadened so that it can advocate on behalf of water consumers, and an independent consumer dispute resolution service will be established to resolve disputes between consumers. I look forward to answering any members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002245c653ca44d84eea8e607683163f7fd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245c653ca44d84eea8e607683163f7fd4\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for taking one for the team, taking this bill up so that the ACT Party can ask some hard questions. Minister, how is an economic regulator supposed to regulate M\u0101ori tikanga\u2014Te Mana o te Wai, spiritual concepts in water? How is an economic regulator supposed to work out\u2014if the Minister truly believes what he\u2019s said, that tikanga and Te Mana o te Wai is the primary reason for these water infrastructure reforms, how is it that an economic regulator saying, \u201CWell, I\u2019m looking at a $100 million proposal from a water services company to invest in a sewage treatment plant or a drinking-water plant but then I have this other report that says, actually, because of tikanga it\u2019s going to cost $150 million.\u201D Because that\u2019s exactly the situation that the Palmerston North District Council is in right now, Minister; that\u2019s the situation they\u2019re in right now. They are being required, because of the need to meet the obligations under the Resource Management Act to meet Te Mana o te Wai obligations, to invest an enormous amount more, maybe even double the amount so that they could get a waste-water treatment plant to service the current and future growth needs of Palmerston North. They had a quote of about $200 million to start with; once you add in Te Mana o te Wai, it\u2019s closer to $500 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis legislation, Minister, will further entrench flawed concepts like Te Mana o te Wai which says, \u201CAnyone making a decision about water has to first regard the health of the water, its spiritual health or mauri\u2014its life force\u2014above the needs of communities for drinking water and above the needs of communities for economic and social development.\u201D What country on earth\u2014what developed country on earth is incorporating spiritual concepts in decision making around water? Well, New Zealand has under this Labour Government. And if there\u2019s not an opportunity to change the direction of this Government in October, if that opportunity is not taken up by the voters, we could be on a slippery, slippery slope to having decisions about how water is allocated, about how pipes are built, about the cost of all our infrastructure, dedicated by people who are unappointed and unelected on co-governance panels in the water service entities, and, of course, will be unappointed\u2014will be appointed but not elected\u2014onto the Commerce Commission\u2019s water commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, Minister, when we look at what else is wrong with this Commerce Commission approach, a gentleman by the name of Andrew Stevenson, who worked for the Commerce Commission, has pointed out some fatal flaws with this legislative approach. Andrew Stevenson says there will be a limited ability to have independent oversight of large projects and less opportunity for community input compared to the original intent of the regulation\u2014less opportunity for community input, less oversight of large projects. Minister, it\u2019s large infrastructure projects where things can typically go more wrong than simply doing routine maintenance on stormwater and waste-water pipes. And yet this legislation, according to an expert who\u2019s worked in the water industry and in the Commerce Commission itself developing regulatory pricing models, has said that it\u2019s not fit for purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis gentleman Andrew Stevenson also says that if the purpose of the economic regulation is that providers will have to develop asset management plans and documents to meet the Commerce Commission\u2019s specifications\u2014but that\u2019s different from the asset management plans that are required under the legislation that sets up the water service entities. Minister, this bill is being rushed through under urgency today. It is incomplete, it is incoherent, it introduces vague spiritual concepts into economic and infrastructure regulation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284e9340350f240f09339eef869f43984\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219be5185ffb84954a28758b3865820e2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Willie Jackson knows it, that\u2019s why he\u2019s moaning and groaning. Not even the Hon Willie Jackson knows how it\u2019s going to work. Minister, would you share with the House, with the people watching today: how is an economic regulator supposed to regulate tikanga? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022dda3294fe5744039985c161b62aa3dc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dda3294fe5744039985c161b62aa3dc8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I think it\u2019s important to recognise that this legislation is about economic regulation, and the member\u2019s comments strayed fairly well outside of the bill. And I certainly don\u2019t think it\u2019s a vague spiritual notion to say that the rights of M\u0101ori to the protection of their taonga accorded under Te Tiriti are to be protected in this bill. It\u2019s quite clear that that obligation sits with the entities themselves\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a3c7204346a4fb781a60bc59d2ca1ac\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Only because you made it so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e51deb9774d8443d9e74f48c9d363110\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and under clause 5, if the member were to read it, rather than jibber-jabbering from the corner, he would understand that the Commerce Commission has a role to make sure that its function is discharged in light of the water services entities\u2019 obligations to take into account the principles of the Treaty and also, of course, Te Mana o te Wai and any settlement obligations. And I am surprised that a member from a party that prides itself on private property and rights doesn\u2019t recognise that the rights accorded M\u0101ori under the Treaty are just as important as the individualistic private property rights that the ACT Party sings for so loud. So I\u2019m very proud that this bill properly protects, preserves, and enhances Te Mana o te Wai, because that\u2019s the right thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of the wider point he made about not having community input into larger projects, again, I think he\u2019s talking about a different piece of legislation which quite appropriately provides for widespread community input, and in this piece of legislation\u2014which is about economic regulation, about ensuring appropriate price and quality regulation\u2014that this is quite appropriately addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00227a73ac2a209a4c1a80e171f2cb5c5337\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a73ac2a209a4c1a80e171f2cb5c5337\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member, can I just say that at 4:45 p.m., which might be while you\u2019re making your contribution, we will go to valedictory statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b62c7d3e40b546448c2f2b26d56fdbec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b62c7d3e40b546448c2f2b26d56fdbec\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I see this debate\u2019s got off to a flying start! Of course, I was very intrigued with the Minister\u2019s introduction when he said this is the third leg of the puzzle. I would actually say it\u2019s a very confusing puzzle; it\u2019s normally called a conundrum, which means there\u2019s no resolution\u2014you can\u2019t find the end of the puzzle. At least I acknowledge the Minister in the chair. I know it\u2019s a difficult time for him. We\u2019re going to have a long time on this tonight. I presume that\u2019s why Willie Jackson\u2019s turned up just now so he can help the Minister solve all these wonderful issues\u2014the intellectual highlight here!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut, look, the first thing I want to ask about is we are talking about\u2014and this is the Labour proposition that we\u2019re going to set up these entities with really confused governance structures. We don\u2019t know who owns them. And then we\u2019re going to pile on this massive regulatory economic oversight. I think the question for the Minister is what other models did the Labour Government actually contemplate? Because this is not an industry where we\u2019ve got a whole lot of people, a whole lot of players, commercial operators out there trying to rip off customers and consumers. The model that Labour has put forward is one where we\u2019ve been told, time and time again, it\u2019s all going to be in the best interest of consumers. Miraculously the water rates are going to decrease, and yet the Government wants to overlay on top of that this really extensive economic process and regulatory burden on these four or 10 entities\u2014whatever might happen; it\u2019s not going to happen under us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAnd when I look at the roles of the commission, I find it quite staggering. This is for entities that are not meant to be out competing. They have no obligation, no determination in the bill to compete. What they are: they\u2019ve been set up under the Labour Government to look after certain geographical areas. There\u2019s no cross-competing over borders, nothing like that, and yet we\u2019ve got a commission\u2014I was just looking at the rights and functions of the commission under clause 4(1)(b) \u201Cto carry out inquiries, reviews, and studies (including international benchmarking)\u201D, it can act as a regulator\u2014well, gee, it does that for certain! It can issues warnings, reports, guidelines, making comments, it can perform and exercise duties and powers, it monitors compliance\u2014it just goes on and on and on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EMy first question to the Minister is: why on earth has the Labour Government decided that we need this over-the-top form of economic regulation on what would otherwise be reasonably benign organisations that are not meant to be out there competing, not meant to be out there ripping it off? If we listened to the member and actually to the Minister talking about the benefits of these types of organisations, it is way over the top. Can the Minister please explain that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00228713e467ab804cb79fea6e800931078d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228713e467ab804cb79fea6e800931078d\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you very much, Madam Chair. Good choice. Look, I wanted just to thank the Minister. Very brave for a Labour MP to front up the issue of three waters\u2014the way it\u2019s gone down like a cup of cold sick among the public. I just wondered if he could confirm that the former Labour Christchurch Mayor Garry Moore said publicly that he resigned his Labour membership because of three waters\u2014would never vote for Labour again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef964e80dbe4490fbd23f0518693cfa5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef964e80dbe4490fbd23f0518693cfa5\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Chair. We were hoping the Minister was going to jump up in front of this wonderful audience and explain why this economic regulation was required. And Mr Grant Robertson coming in to rescue him\u2014Mr Robertson rescuing us. So can you explain\u2014just carrying on what I was talking about before\u2014why have a definition of \u201Ccompetition\u201D which means workable and effective competition when each of these entities are not in the game of competing with each other across geographical boundaries, about competing for customer base? Why do you have such an onerous form of economic regulation when that form of competition does not exist under the model that the Labour Government has put forward, and so many people have said that is a poor and bad structure, ripping off the assets of residents and putting them into unaccountable entities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c588180133934ce79449dc839f91b383\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c588180133934ce79449dc839f91b383\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Bayly, I\u2019m surprised, given your apparent background as a merchant banker, that you\u2019re not aware of the wide-ranging economic regulation we have across a number of industries like telecommunications and electricity where natural monopoly or a definition of workable competition issues throughout. This is a very normal form of economic regulation in exactly these kinds of situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00221920b106fe2e45bebcdbb6e0228f73a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221920b106fe2e45bebcdbb6e0228f73a2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for valedictory statements from members. This committee is suspended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226badd986889240dc8b5594a30333fc3c\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022098b706a6c6e4d83b0411a0ef9be2382\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002234dfd3805a3542d69e53da066f6a4ed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234dfd3805a3542d69e53da066f6a4ed9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is resumed for the valedictory statements. Members, following the valedictory statements, the House will suspend for the dinner break and will resume in committee on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill at 7 p.m. I call on Todd Muller to make his valedictory statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u00222f3a8861af08449baa83cc9f98211e83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f3a8861af08449baa83cc9f98211e83\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Whilst this boy from Te Puna might have dreamt of being a President of the United States, it was the Mayor of Te Aroha, my grandad, Henry Skidmore, that planted the seed of purpose in my teenage mind. Seared in my memory were my grandad\u2019s trips to collect the mail, years after he had retired, and shaking hand after hand of that community as he slowly walked back to his car. It was genuine affection from him to them and much in return. I saw, in my grandparents, how fulfilled one can be through a life of service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EBy my late teens, I was determined to one day stand in this place\u2014so determined, in fact, that according to Michelle, on our first date, I used that pretty cool pick-up line about how much I wanted to MP. Clearly I was a keeper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EFor some reason known only to her, that did not put her off and, 25 years later, here we are. And it is in thanking Michelle that I want to start. I think this House knows it hasn\u2019t been the smoothest of rides over the last nine years\u2014in fact, at times, pretty dire\u2014but Michelle kept our family together through it all, under the most intense of stress. She prioritised everyone else at the expense of her own health and career. Thank you for your intuition, selflessness, and being the glue for our family. In a world that feels increasingly conditional, your love was unconditional and, in a very real sense, I can stand, still, here today, because of you. I love you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETo Aimee, Bradley, and Amelia: from little kids having their photo taken with John Key nine years ago to the remarkable young adults that you are today; my choices have been tough on you all, even tougher than Dad talking about you now! But thank you for your love and support. Aimee, I so love your humour and immense work ethic; Amelia, your passion for theatre, singing, and your insights on life; and Bradley, our Aquinas College captain of the first 11 football team\u2014Aquinas captain of the basketball team who broke his leg on Friday in an interschool competition two weeks out from the national qualifiers, watching now in Tauranga. Your courage and resilience that you are demonstrating right now is an example to me. Mum and Dad are so proud of you all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETo my dear Mum, Trish, who has personally lived every political twist and turn and media interview as only mums can, thank you for your constant love and support, especially in the last six years without Dad at your side. We have all missed his wisdom and love but I, like you, can sense his guiding force still. To my brothers Gavin, Craig, Nathan: thanks for always reminding me that brotherly familiarity and depreciating wit, normally at my expense, is a love all of its own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETo my close friends Lain Jager, Mike Graham, Sarah Paterson, Hamish Crafar, Lewis Graham, and Carrick Graham. Thank you for caring for me and bringing a large disinterest and buckets of humour to the machinations of day-to-day politics, which was hugely appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETo my Papamoa staff over the last nine years, Nigel, Raiha, Jo, Karen, and Greer. Nine years of constituent advocacy, nine years of making a difference in helping those most vulnerable navigate an often bewildering array of public agencies. You have changed people\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETo my Wellington staff: Stefan, Sharon, Aaron, Megan, Nikita, and Jess, thank you for your remarkable commitment and passion to bring the very best of yourself to the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ESpecial hugs to Claire and Celia, for the tears and laughter and most extraordinary loyalty to Michelle and I. To my long-time supporters Jim and Joan Bolger, Sir Paul and Cheryl Adams, Sir Dryden and Margaret Spring, Craig and Shayne Greenlees; my Tauranga mafia mates Grant Eynon, Mike Chapman, Doug Voss, and Sir Peter Trapski, thank you for your remarkable belief in me and for your consistent perspectives, insight and support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETo the GGPA\u2014you know who you are\u2014thanks for having my back through thick and thin. To the many parliamentary staff I have met and chatted to over the years, from security, to messengers, to the Chamber staff, to the cleaners, thank you for your quiet, humble service, and for sharing some of your own stories with me\u2014a welcome drop of perspective in a place that can easily lose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETo my local National Party members, thank you for being there for Michelle and I, through the remarkable highs and lows of these last nine years. The commitment of your often precious time to advance our party\u2019s values is a treasure I will never forget. Thank you to Sean, Mary and Jim, Sandie, Bonnie, Valda, Don, Pam, and Jacci. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETo my Bay of Plenty electorate, it has been a genuine honour to represent the community I have lived amongst for 50 years. We fought hard for each other\u2014petitions and protests for more roads, schools, health services, police\u2014with some success but Tauranga is a city that continues to grow significantly faster than the infrastructure and services provision and, frankly, it\u2019s time for a National Government. Talking of future National Governments, can I personally thank you Christopher and Nicola for your private support and values-based leadership. I do deeply thank you. You are a partnership that this country desperately needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWell, it has certainly been a ride, but I wouldn\u2019t change a thing\u2014well, apart from perhaps a few less colleagues to get mistaken for! Earlier last year, I arrived in Christchurch and jumped into a taxi and headed north. The local taxi driver, disconcertingly, spent more time looking at me than he did the road, for many, many kilometres. After quite a while, he got up enough courage to turn to me and say, \u201CIt is an absolute honour to have you in my car, Mr Luxon.\u201D I felt I couldn\u2019t disappoint him so I to him, \u201CNo, no; I\u2019m your local MP Matt Doocey.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ESo, in the spirit of valedictories and the knowledge that what I am going to say can be attributed to at least two others, I would like to share some highlights and reflections. I hope political colleagues, the wider House, and media can see these comments for what they are\u2014personal not political, conciliatory not critical, wary but not lacking in hope. I have two highlights I wish to reflect on. Firstly was the negotiation of the zero carbon Act with James Shaw. It was tough; we didn\u2019t get everything we wanted but we were focused on delivering something that would stand the test of time, a framework that would give New Zealand surety that this Parliament and those to come would prioritise climate action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWhilst I don\u2019t agree with pretty much everything the Green Party stands for, I want to acknowledge James as a gentleman and a friend. However, while we have embedded a useful advisory structure it will become increasingly meaningless if we don\u2019t follow its advice. I believe the Climate Commission must mature into an institution that this House respects. But that respect will come from telling truth to power. That truth will be uncomfortable for us all. I\u2019ve just got to try and grab a water here for a moment, excuse me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a thing I\u2019ve always had from my father\u2014shaking hands when you have a water; he\u2019s thinking of me. That truth will be uncomfortable. The nations of the world will not keep global warming to below 1.5 degrees, rather they will overshoot 2 degrees by some measure. As the global climate continues to warm, New Zealand will bear significant costs due to the impacts of climate change and attempting to adapt to it over time. These impacts, on our coastal and stretched infrastructure, will dwarf the medium-term challenges and costs of emission reductions. I hope the commission\u2019s future advice will include principles that could inform how we could share this adaptation cost within and between generations in an equitable manner, because, with the possible exception of agriculture, we will be a technology taker, so we need to balance our international obligations with our capacity to scale up new technologies at pace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWe are a tiny country seeking to play a meaningful role in global action on climate, but we must be realistic about our size, distance from market, infrastructure vulnerabilities, and balance sheet capacity. But all that strategic context cannot mask the inevitable: we must reduce our gross emissions and seek efficient ways to offset them in the short term. It is a challenging path for a country so small and so distant, but it will become impossible if dispassionate assessments of complex options provided by the Climate Change Commission get drowned out by simple tag lines of denialism or catastrophisation, or even \u201Ckick it down the road\u201D - ism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EAs we sit here today, we cannot meet the gaze of our youth on climate action and that should not sit easy with us. The achievement I am most proud of was becoming the leader of this great National Party. I walked into a school hall 34 years ago as a young man, seeking a tentative political home and found New Zealanders who were hard working, entrepreneurial, deeply caring for their communities, and I felt immediately comfortable. To become leader of New Zealand\u2019s most successful political movement was humbling and exciting in equal measure, but as is well documented, such sentiment was quickly subsumed by anguish and horror. As I slowly pulled the pieces of my life together, I struggled with regret and loss. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI turned up here late-2020 caught between trying to apologise and rebuilding a career, walking around constant triggers of what might have been. There were many messages of support from this place, which I was grateful for, but, unfortunately, behind the public utterances of many, there remained a persistent view that somehow having a mental breakdown was a function of poor political execution, as opposed to a contributor to it. I acknowledge this is a sensitive space, but we should be open about the unique challenges of experiencing poor mental health when you are a political figure. It is important to provide suitable space for rehabilitation, including some distance from scrutiny and accountability. We do that for cancer; we should do it for poor mental health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EIn my case, that largely happened with the mainstream media, but less so with some in my party still coming to terms with a terrible 2020 result. I hope that when the occasion arises in the future, for it surely will, empathy replaces silence, and understanding\u2014blame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETo the many hundreds of New Zealanders who have reached out to me over the last three years, nearly all of whom spoke of their own moments of suffering and hope, thank you for your care, for your searing honesty and words of encouragement. Please know that apart from my family, friends, and professional support, there was no greater comfort or contribution to my recovery than those messages\u2014especially your words of hope despite your often very private hell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThis needs to be the bipartisan cause. I commend MPs for establishing a cross-party committee on mental health, but we are losing New Zealanders, every day, including a friend of mine just last week. We can\u2019t care for them to the level they need, and we have to fix it. When you or someone you love is suffering, you don\u2019t care about political blame, you don\u2019t care about policies or working groups or reviews or dollars to be spent over the next four years; you just want someone to help\u2014you just want the pain to stop. We have to support the many hands that can reach out to them. Thank you Sir John Kirwan, Mike King, and many others for your relentless pursuit of the care of others. Because you walked it, survived it, but most of all shared it, many others stand up, still\u2014kia kaha.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EFinally, there is a broad change occurring in New Zealand that concerns me, and I can sense in our private moments, concerns many in this House. There is anger at a level I have not seen before. Boiling frustration, weaved through the personal conversations of many of our fellow New Zealanders. From this discontent swells greater partisanship, which is fuelling a level of political toxicity that is corrosive to our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI think the most explicit example of community division at the moment is the issue of M\u0101ori and economic and political aspirations. There are two polar opposite views that are pulsing through our communities. One: that this country is being radicalised by the M\u0101orification of our society, and the other is that we are very slowly, but inexorably, moving to a Treaty-centred future which was imagined in 1840. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EFrom these opposing philosophies emerge policies calling for the Treaty\u2019s impact on New Zealand\u2019s life to be seriously curtailed, and policies that seek to apply Treaty principles more broadly to guide all we do in this House. There is a building resentment that fundamental legislative changes are occurring without due consultation, and there is intense frustration that the promise of 183 years ago continues to be denied. As we would hope in a representative democracy, these perspectives are not only represented in this House, they sit side by side, but their world views could not be more at odds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EHow we deport ourselves on this issue matters. We are a House of Representatives, political debate in this unique New Zealand cauldron should be strong, ideas tested, and their articulation critiqued. But we must ask ourselves: are we standard bearers of civility and decency or amplifiers of division? We set an example here, and the ability to temper our language when we are fighting for closely held beliefs is not a weakness, but a strength. We need to model the capacity to disagree with respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThe two great tribes of New Zealand politics\u2014the Labour Party and the National Party\u2014have a real responsibility here. As collective representatives of the significant majority of the country, we need to be mindful of where these debates and policies are taking us. One of the great examples of bipartisanship of the last 30 years has been our focus on settling historical Treaty claims\u2014often in innovative and inclusive ways. But the areas of common agreement around the role of the Treaty in New Zealand are being eroded by increasingly fierce and partisan demands and responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWe progress as a society when the centre holds, whilst slowly moving that centre to reflect the changing nature of our aspirations and beliefs. But if the centre collapses because the extremes are too unyielding, or either one of the main parties rapidly moves to embrace that extreme, we put the bonds that bind our society at great peril. But the political centre has to move as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI believe one person, one vote is the bedrock of democracy, but bedrocks can be built on, so where there is inequality in political representation, we should be open to ensuring these voices can see a pathway for greater representation. For if our political institutions are to endure, they must reflect our changing country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EIn 1993, I voted against MMP; I was fearful that the National Party\u2019s political power was going to be diffused. I was right, it has been. We lost the clean efficiency of majority Governments, but gained the capacity to govern taking into account a more diverse range of perspectives. The future is more of that, not less. Framing M\u0101ori aspiration as a binary choice between radicalism and conservatism is as dangerous as rapid changes to our institutions without due diligence and consultation.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ESo I ask the two great tribes of New Zealand politics to quietly begin refreshing and strengthening their relationships across the aisle on this kaupapa, and work together to allow the centre of NZ politics to move but also to hold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EBut enough of my reckons; it is time to leave. So with a sense of immense pride, love of family intact, close friends still close, and many handshakes and nods as I walk around my community, I will take my leave. I have done some things well, some less well, but I gave it my best. My grandparents were right: there is much value in a life of service. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014Tauranga Moana\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4995854504f4a0eb4fc97db3426d0b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4995854504f4a0eb4fc97db3426d0b7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I now understand that folks in the gallery will be departing and we\u2019ll have Mr McKelvie\u2019s friends and family locate themselves in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0e8e369232f4fb4abf613a432fbd17e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0e8e369232f4fb4abf613a432fbd17e\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is kind of the time when you know there\u2019s no going back\u2014ha, ha! I\u2019m done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOddly enough, I\u2019ve lived my 28 years in public life with a lot of things in the back of my mind\u2014but one in particular, by an unknown author, has stuck with me. It goes like this: \u201CI have wept in the night for the shortness of sight that to somebody\u2019s need made me blind. But I never yet shed a tear of regret for being a little too kind.\u201D Now, anyone who knew me in my 20s would not believe that this is the same person they knew then. That\u2019s the effect life experience has on one; it\u2019s also why this place needs people with life experience, because we change a lot from our 20s and 30s to our\u2014I\u2019m not going to say how old I am\u2014to our 70s, ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWhen I entered this place, I had no great expectation that I would have a profound impact here. So, as I leave 12 years later, I can only hope that I have enabled others to live a better, more enabled, and independent life than they could before I came. I hope that I have been able to give more Rangit\u012Bkeians hope and aspiration to achieve, to enable them to feel better about life, and to encourage them to visit and speak to their MP at any time in the hope of making their country a better place for them and their families to live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI have never been a pothole-and-road man or a person who worries about the cost of a council lunch or the colour of the library door; I have always been much more interested in where we want to be in 20 to 30 years and how we get there. As such, I joined the National Party and came to Parliament, having been elected as the member of Parliament for Rangit\u012Bkei in 2011, having previously served nine years as the Manawat\u016B mayor, a role I really enjoyed but needed to move on from, as I don\u2019t believe mayors should stay around for much longer than nine years\u2014probably nor should backbench MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOne of the principles I brought to my public life was never to deny a problem or failing, to admit to a problem, and get on with fixing it. I have to say one of the greatest downfalls of successive Ministers in this place is their failure to recognise or admit to a problem and getting on with fixing it; after all, they have the power\u2014and some, the ability to do so. It seems we are able to go on blaming previous administrations for years and years. If I had a piece of advice for members of Parliament it would be that: don\u2019t blame the others, don\u2019t hide from the problem; admit your shortcomings, and use your considerable influence and power to change what you can while you are here. One further piece of advice is: never be convinced by a senior Minister to swim in a very public place\u2014ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EIf I have a single regret on leaving this place, it is that I have been unable to encourage more collegiality within and some degree of common acceptance universally around the big decisions facing us\u2014climate change, child welfare, family violence, and progress on environmental changes needed to ensure our futures as a world-leading food and fibre producer, and that\u2019s not to mention health and education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESadly, I have to report that I have failed in the collegiality thing; however, it is not for the lack of trying, meeting with MPs across the House; the former Speaker Trevor Mallard\u2014who inexplicably wanted the best for this place but showed it in very odd ways at times!\u2014participating in cross-party events, select committee, and Speakers\u2019 tours, even cricket tours. That cricket tour allowed me to have lunch at 10 Downing Street, and, on the same day, attend the bulk of the infamous world cup cricket final at Lord\u2019s\u2014stuff dreams are made of for a romantic like me. All of this to pretty much no avail, and if you go back to my maiden speech, it was all about \u201Ccreating more collegiality in Parliament\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOne big issue I want to comment on before I leave this amazing place is the wellbeing of MPs and their staff. In my experience, we generally look after each other pretty well; we also look out for each other when personal wellbeing is at stake. There are two matters which break these boundaries and cause much stress. One is thinking that staff of politicians can be politically neutral while working under a party banner\u2014it is just not plausible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe second is the extreme and unacceptable prying into the private lives of MPs which has no relevance to their ability to perform the roles they are elected to undertake. This would never happen in the corporate world or down on the farm, and it shouldn\u2019t happen here. If we don\u2019t reach some agreement as a society as to the boundaries here, we will undermine democracy and chase the very people we want running for Parliament away for good. We come here accepting the risks but our friends and family do not, and it is totally unacceptable that they should be compromised by the fact we choose to serve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EYou might ask what I\u2019ve been doing in this place for all those years\u2014well I wonder that as well! But I\u2019ve ended every day in politics wondering if I have done enough, wondering what I could have done better, and if I could have done a little bit more to help people; even wondering at times if I am a very poor actor. I have listened to so many people tell me how to do things better, with great ideas for the future, and, consequently I might ask of all of you, as I leave here, what are you going to do about it? Because we all come here knowing what needs to be done\u2014we just take such different paths as we strive to put it right. I hope you will forgive me for stealing a phrase from a great New Zealand retailer Alan Martin\u2014who most of you won\u2019t remember\u2014\u201CIt\u2019s the putting it right that counts\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOne thing I have been doing here is passing two members\u2019 bills, with a third picked up by the Hon Andrew Little with help from the Hon Kieran McAnulty and planted in a Government bill all under a Labour Government. These concerned three subjects very dear to me: horses or racing, livestock, and dogs. That\u2019s why we come here, to promote the issues we\u2019re interested in, and it does show that collegiality is achievable if one chooses to work at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOne role I really enjoyed was my short time in the Speaker\u2019s Chair as a temporary Assistant Speaker. The help I got from the team behind the wall in the Clerk\u2019s office was amazing, and there is no doubt they could make any person appointed to the Speaker\u2019s role look great\u2014that is no reflection on you, Mr Speaker, ha, ha! Sorry to give your secret away!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWhilst on the people behind the wall, there have been so many who help us on a daily basis, from the security team; to those who clean up after we leave for the day; to the messengers; to the House team; to the select committee staff, who are amazing; to the team in Bellamy\u2019s\u2014you have been so kind to Sue and I, and I thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAnother role I particularly enjoyed was my spokesperson for seniors\u2014it\u2019s quite appropriate, I imagine\u2014and subsequent involvement with our National SuperBlues, a wonderful group of older New Zealanders. It\u2019s been an amazing experience talking to older New Zealanders. It\u2019s interesting what you find out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI am a farmer, born a farmer, and never intended to be anything else\u2014oh, how life can change. As such, I recognise that change is essential to achieve our aspiration to be the world\u2019s cleanest and greenest food and fibre producer, and it needs to be done in an incremental manner that most can agree to. To achieve this, we need a plan bought into by the majority of this House, particularly the two major parties and all businesses and producers affected by it. It has to allow those businesses and those responsible for the implementation of change to be able to plan and budget for the future with certainty, to know the plan is achievable, and to be confident that achieving this will ensure they are valued and have a business with a certain future. One Government starting these processes and the next one stopping them will never see us making the progress our farmers deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWhilst on the topic of agriculture, I will quote from my maiden speech. I said, \u201CI want to make a plea for us not to encourage, through suspect policy, the planting of pine trees on land that can be used for food production\u201D. How prescient that proved to be, as we continue to allow the planting of pine trees in the permanent forest sink on land that should otherwise be available to agriculture and the productive forestry sector. This is one of the biggest single challenges we face in New Zealand with respect to our future as a food-producing nation, and one that must be resolved urgently\u2014and will be by a National Government when elected in October. Having said that I also firmly believe that the emissions trading scheme has a place in our climate change response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI have spent a lot of my time in Parliament sitting on select committees and have had the privilege of chairing two of\u2014one while in Government and one whilst in Opposition. As I leave here, I am sad to say that they do not work any better than they did when I arrived. By that I mean, they miss the opportunity to achieve much more for New Zealanders because of the partisan nature of them. Were they able to operate in a semi-bipartisan manner, doing what is best for the legislation or the inquiry or financial review in front of them, we would produce a much better result, for the Parliament, the Government and the people of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThis approach to select committee work would also help maintain a very strong democracy, which I believe is being weakened by the day in New Zealand. Remembering whatever the select committee does can be overturned by the Parliament\u2014or the Government of the day\u2014if so desired. The Minister concerned would then have to have a much stronger and more public reason for doing so, and that would be great for democracy and the legislation concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI have seen so much legislation bulldozed through select committees and returned to Parliament, only to need a quick and poorly-thought-out fix at committee stage or need to be returned to Parliament shortly after Royal assent. Haven\u2019t we seen, this very day, an ill-considered and ill-conceived water legislation rushed through the select committee under urgency, only for a 250-page Supplementary Order Paper to be dropped on the Parliament a few days later. A four-year term would make that process much easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOne of the things many will have noticed is my reticence when it comes to asking questions of Ministers, and I will explain this very quickly. One of my early questions was to a Minister\u2014who shall remain nameless\u2014a primary and three supplementaries. Being a new and very clever MP, I listened very carefully to the answers, knowing that the Minister concerned had answered the third supplementary in the answer to the second. I did not ask the third\u2014and amid much glaring from the Minister concerned, I sat staunchly in my seat. Needless to say, I didn\u2019t get a question for another 18 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI have been privileged in my time here to have been looked after by some amazing people, hereby Fiona Julian, Leanne Marshall, and Ainslie Newell\u2014who has put up with me for the last 11 years\u2014in the electorate offices by Norma Humphries, Jacky Short, Suze Redmayne, Hilary Webb, Bernadette McIlwaine, Jane Cameron, Leanne Marshall, and the Taumarunui version of the MP Kay Kidd, who\u2019s been with me from the very start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI have also been fortunate to have had two excellent policy advisors here in Ben Henderson and Jamie Allan; and voluntary and special ones in Grant Hadfield, Simon Taylor, and Wiremu Te Aweawe\u2014and, of course, I\u2019ve got a vintage model on some days in Rob Webb. I have also had four great youth MPs in Jacinta Gulasekharam, Ben Henderson, William Wood, and Daisy Tumataroa, all of whom I am sure will make a great impression on New Zealand during their lives\u2014possibly as a result of that experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EA few words about my Rangit\u012Bkei electorate, who without the great support of, I would not be here today. Electorate chairs, the late Bruce Mills, Gary Massicks, Jamie Cunningham, and Shelley Dew Hopkins, all of whom have been great support to me; my campaign chairs Simon Taylor, Jamie Cunninghame, and Grant Hadfield; my campaign organisers Kathy Johnson and Adrienne Pierce; and my sign teams bosses, the late Mervyn Craw, the late Johnny Monckton, the late Brendon Mickleson, the late Bruce Mills, the late Anton Smith, and the late Neville Wheeler\u2014it\u2019s a very tough job, that sign job! And those surviving\u2014there have been some\u2014in Cameron McKelvie, Greg Weston, Mark Monckton, Jamie Cunningham, and Shelley Dew Hopkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESpecial people in Elaine Wheeler, Jacqui Campion, Marion and Bill Abbiss, Diana Hansen, Claire Hare, Jane Bolton, Stuart Picken, Norma Humphries; and my late brother BJ, who was both a great critic and a great supporter; my late mother Rosemary, who kept on asking me, when the Labour Government came to power, \u201CHave you seen the Prime Minister today?\u201D I said, \u201CNo, Mum, I haven\u2019t!\u201D She\u2019s no longer with us, of course. And so many others who have been special to Sue and I.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI followed a very good MP and senior Minister in Simon Power into this place, and I hope to be followed by an equally good one in Suze Redmayne. I wish her all the best in the upcoming election; I know she will be a star in a future Government\u2014the fact that Simon and I played a role in her education ensures that. Gotta claim it now!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI have always had a good relationship with my neighbouring MPs, and I must mention particularly\u2014because there\u2019s been a number more, too\u2014Tangi Utikere, the Rt Hon Adrian Rurawhe\u2014Mr Speaker\u2014and my own National neighbours Nathan Guy, the late Chester Borrows, and Jono Naylor. We are all loyal to our region. Finally, in this respect, I must mention the person I rate most highly and that\u2019s Dame Tariana Turia\u2014I think she\u2019s the most courageous politician of my time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOther very important people, especially to our provincial MPs, are our mayors. I\u2019ve had a few\u201416 in all\u2014and all have worked very hard for our region and been very supportive of me. I must especially mention\u2014because I can\u2019t mention them all\u2014my successors at the Manawat\u016B District Council: Margaret Kouvellis and Helen Worboys, Don Cameron, Andy Watson, Grant Smith, Tracy Collis, and Brendon Duffy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe class of 2011\u2014I have loved our time with them. We started as a group of nine, grew to 11, and I wish the four of you left standing\u2014Simon O\u2019Connor, Mark Mitchell, Scott Simpson, and Paul Goldsmith\u2014all the best in the upcoming election. I will never forget Paul Foster-Bell\u2019s take-off of Tim Groser or Paul Goldsmith just being Paul Goldsmith\u2014or Maggie Barry just being Maggie Barry, even if it was at 2 o\u2019clock in the morning. Also to demonstrate the somewhat treacherous nature of this job, there have been 98 National MPs here with me; now there are 34 left\u201464 have been and gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWhen I appeared before the interview panel for selection to become a candidate in May 2011, one thing in particular stuck with me and that was being told by the chair that my wife would play very little part in my political life. Well, I told her that\u2014you can imagine how that went down with her. Of course, she has effectively been the other half of the MP for Rangit\u012Bkei for the past 12 years. How lucky have I been to have had a hugely supportive family and Sue, who lived the business for all those years. She has also driven many of the 850,000 km our cars have travelled, just touching the brakes from time to time when she got a little bored\u2014with me sitting on the computer; your head goes up pretty quick when that happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI am sure she will miss this place and its people more than I will. She has seen the world while I have been an MP, as is only fair; as we become slaves to our roles, our partners need a life of their own. We will wake up on the morning of 15 October with nothing to do\u2014the first time since we went to school 66 years ago. It will be a new adventure in a life together that has been full of them. To our very adult children\u2014Diana and Thaine, Cam and Rachel, Angus and Harri\u2014and our eight grandchildren, thank you for putting up with the at-times unwanted publicity and the fact that we cannot attend birthdays, sports events, and other family occasions that \u201Cnormal\u201D people do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI have loved my time in here, serving the people of the Rangit\u012Bkei, visiting businesses, people, and houses all over the country\u2014in fact, in many parts of the world\u2014battling with constituents from all over the place, and some have literally been all over the place. I know and have learnt so much, and as I leave here, I have no idea what will happen to that or what I will do in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI will not be joining the critics of this place on leaving\u2014that\u2019s the job of the press and the voters. Finally, I have served under two great New Zealanders in Sir John Key, Sir Bill English, the unlucky Simon Bridges, Todd Muller\u2014and we just heard today what might have been\u2014and the courageous Judith Collins. I wish Christopher Luxon, Nicola Willis, my 2011 colleagues, and the National team led by Sylvia Wood all the best in the upcoming election. They will make a fantastic Government for all New Zealand, if elected\u2014albeit in very challenging circumstances. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed2095a99675481bbf4bac729c379221\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed2095a99675481bbf4bac729c379221\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to now ask Ian McKelvie\u2019s family and friends to vacate the gallery so that we can have David Bennett\u2019s friends and family come in. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7a05cbd5d144016bc36cf9125cb68a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7a05cbd5d144016bc36cf9125cb68a2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Salaam alaikum. Sat sri akaal. Dajia hao. A recent opinion piece in the Waikato Times quoted from the Shakespearean play Macbeth, saying, \u201CNothing in David\u2019s political life has become him so much as leaving it.\u201D That commentator never said a truer word. I leave this great Parliament with a new and exciting chapter in life that involves a family. This place has taught me what to value in life. Thank you, Nicky, for being a beautiful, smart, and strong partner. We are very fortunate to be able to build a loving family together. As you all imagine, she is the more rational one of the partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThank you for the blessing of our beautiful Julia. The little one has been a treasure and continues to bring much joy and love. Julia has a very outgoing personality and loves people\u2014natural political skills!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThank you to my family who have supported me through this career. To Mum and Dad, thank you for all your support. I would not be here or have had the opportunity to be here without your sacrifices. To my brother Tom and his children, Livi, Greta, and Nicholas\u2014they have grown up while I have been here and are smart, caring, and positive young people with amazing futures. We are very proud of who you all have become.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI would like to thank Nicky\u2019s family, Carol and Bill and Debbie, who have welcomed me into the family and been wonderful to Julia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI stood for the Hamilton East National Party nomination in 2004 on one platform: to build the road from Hamilton to Auckland. My driver has been to get infrastructure for Hamilton to achieve its destiny. My focus has been on delivery, not stories. I wanted to build the Chicago of New Zealand, an industrial heartland city. Hamilton has a strategic advantage in its proximity to Auckland. The expressway meant we could build the Hamilton, Auckland, and Tauranga \u201Cgolden triangle\u201D. Hamilton could have easily been bypassed like inland cities around the world. Instead, we have connected through infrastructure to the population centre of Auckland and the export and import centre of Tauranga. As industry relocates to Hamilton, we are seeing Penrose move to P\u016Bkete. Head offices are now coming to the city. Hamilton is booming. The National Party has made this possible through the provision of infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EJudy Kirk, Peter Goodfellow, Sylvia Wood, and Roger Bridge have all been great support on the National Party board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThank you to our leader Christopher Luxon. He is a genuine, driven, and aspirational leader. He will be one of New Zealand\u2019s best Prime Ministers, and I look forward to celebrating your success in October. Thank you also to Nicola Willis, who will make a huge contribution to New Zealand politics. [Interruption] That\u2019s the little one; she\u2019s getting confused. Ha, ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI would like to thank my good friend the Hon Judith Collins. Judith took over the leadership with a party and caucus in disarray. As with most times of difficulty, a strong woman is required, and thank you for keeping the party together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThank you to the Hon Steven Joyce, who always supported projects for the Waikato. Steven\u2019s understanding of politics and business is a very rare skill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Hon Jacqui Dean and myself are the last two remaining members of the 2005 intake for the National Party, and my thanks to Jacqui and the class of 2005 for their friendship over that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Hamilton East electorate executive have been very supportive, and thank you to Bill and Judith Noble, Trevor and Julie Follows, John and Louise Bridgman, Dave and Merle McGall, Ryan Higgins, Lawsen Harte, Marilyn Hemming, and Ron Williams. My special thanks to Stuart Anderson. Stuart has been my campaign manager throughout my time here. His loyalty and political instincts have been invaluable. Thank you, Stuart. Murray Porter, Jon Webb, and Pienaar Piso have always been there to support all my campaigns, and my best wishes to Ryan Hamilton, who will be the next MP for Hamilton East.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThank you to all members in this House for their service to this country, and my special thanks to the Labour ladies for babysitting Julia so I could do my House duties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAfter being elected in 2005, the leader Don Brash sought our portfolio preferences. Transport was mine. The new leader, the Rt Hon John Key, sought our transport policy for the 2008 election. I suggested to the senior spokesperson at that time that we borrow the Australian roads of national significance policy, so the roads of national significance were born. We were to announce the first preferred road from Auckland to Whang\u0101rei before the election. As my reward, the expressway was to be a back-up and, through a twist of fate, the Waikato Expressway became the preferred announcement. We wrote the press release as the team drove to Hamilton, and the road was to be built within 10 years and with no tolls. It has been the most transformative event in the history of Hamilton. Waikato-Tainui have benefited greatly, and I would like to thank K\u012Bngi Tuheitia and Tukuroirangi Morgan for their support. M\u0101ori have the most to gain from an expanded New Zealand, with their increasing role in land assets like Ruakura.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThank you to the Waikato Times, who are a strong advocate for the region. They epitomise good reporting, putting both sides of the story together. The impressive editorial teams include Jonathan MacKenzie, Bryce Johns, Roy Pilott, and Geoff Taylor, and the excellent reporters of Aaron Leaman, Natalie Akoorie, Nikki Preston\u2014another one\u2014Belinda Feek, Mary Anne Gill, Elton Smallman, Jo Lines-MacKenzie, Stephen Ward, and Rachel Moore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EPolitics is about serving the people of your community. The Hamilton seats are on the front line of the battle of political ideals in New Zealand. I have invited Tim Macindoe and Martin Gallagher here today; we worked as a team over many years. Neither Tim nor Martin had the opportunity to present a valedictory speech\u2014in fact, there has not been a valedictory speech for Hamilton West since 1972. On behalf of the three of us, we thank the people of Hamilton for their support and hospitality. It has been an honour and privilege for the three of us to represent Hamilton. Our thanks for the opportunity to serve our fantastic city. Thank you, Tim and Martin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EHamilton East is a socially liberal and economically conservative electorate. I am proud of having voted for marriage equality and abortion reform. As Jamie Strange kindly commented in his valedictory, I did a lot of doorknocking\u2014so much, in fact, that one day I managed to interrupt a couple of teenagers who were up to no good and obviously thought I was one of their parents coming home early. I wasn\u2019t sure who was more relieved when I left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EHamilton East is the only university seat that National has consistently held since 2005. They say you aren\u2019t a true University of Waikato student if you don\u2019t have a David Bennett pen. Thank you to the student union and Nexus magazine for your support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EOne of my passions has been in advocating for a more open immigration system. Migrants bring aspiration, a competitive spirit, and they value education. Hamilton\u2019s success is very much linked with welcoming migrants to our city. In serving our communities, my office has had great staff like Marianne Mclean, Victoria Young, Grace Shaw, Katrina McCann, Jan Mudgway, Raiyan Azmi, Alex Dykes, and Jenny Young. We specialised in immigration cases, and one of our special memories involved the Afghan interpreters. Many of the interpreters were relocated to Hamilton, and they were deeply proud of their service. However, they were not entitled to wear any medals. We enabled them to get medals, and now they wear them with pride at Anzac Day services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI started the speech with the greetings of the Chinese, Indian, and Muslim communities. The migrant communities make up a third of Hamilton East and represent the future demographics of New Zealand, and their support has enabled me to be the longest serving member of Parliament in the history of Hamilton. They are my friends and my supporters, and thank you for your support. And a special thanks to those that have made it here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EHamilton has suffered at the butt of many jokes over time. Some thought of us as a \u201CCowtown\u201D, a bogan capital, and, more recently, as the city of the future. Hamilton, for too long, hadn\u2019t had its fair share. Hamilton is set to become New Zealand\u2019s third biggest city. Both Hamilton and Tauranga will be bigger than Wellington in the next decade. The population of the Waikato - Bay of Plenty region is, effectively, the equivalent of the South Island. Every dollar spent in Hamilton and Tauranga on infrastructure provides a significantly greater return for New Zealand than anywhere else in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand now has the same opportunity as Hamilton had, when I came to Parliament. Australia, through its \u201Cbig Australia\u201D policy, along with Canada and Britain, have made the decision to embrace population change. We have a choice of being part of that change or being a feeder for others\u2019 change. The rise of Africa, climate change, and the large populations of Asia will mean over 40 million people will live between Adelaide and Townsville soon. Sydney and Melbourne are projected to be cities of 9 million people each. It will initially be driven through economic reasons, and then security reasons. Australia wants to be a world player and they need a population to do that. We can be part of the Australian eastern seaboard growth and springboard into the Asian-Pacific market. This is the greatest economic opportunity for our generation. The new \u201Cgolden triangle\u201D is now Greater Auckland, Melbourne, and Sydney.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s ability to produce the scale of population and economy to take advantage of this opportunity is firmly rooted in having a strong top half of the North Island. Auckland\u2019s role in the future of New Zealand is inevitable. As we link from Whang\u0101rei to Tauranga, Hamilton\u2019s destiny is secure. We can accelerate the growth in the area and have seven million people in these four large main urban centres. New cities are possible, and Hamilton can be the link for the Taranaki, Manawat\u016B, and Hawke\u2019s Bay to Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EMy passion for building a stronger Hamilton hasn\u2019t been meet with a desire for a public profile. Being a Minister was never a priority, but I did have that honour. I\u2019d like to thank the Rt Hon Bill English for the opportunity to serve in his Government. Thank you to Dell Watson and Audrey Malone for your professionalism. It was an absolute pleasure to be Minister of Racing and meet some of the most successful and dedicated New Zealanders. David Ellis, Karyn Fenton-Ellis, Sir Peter and Lady Pam Vela, and Brendan and Jo Lindsay represent the success of our racing industry. Racing is a primary industry that will continue to shine and has great potential if linked to the Australasian market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI also had the privilege of being spokesperson for several portfolios, and my thanks to leaders, like Bruce Cameron from Zespri, who have made a real contribution to our primary sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EFor me, I defined success in building the Waikato Expressway; the internal ring-route road for Hamilton, just like Melbourne and Moscow; Hamilton as the first broadband city; new secondary schools in the fast-growing north of the electorate; the velodrome; and a rebuilt Waikato Hospital campus. Recent announcements of the Cambridge to Piarere extension of the Waikato Expressway, Southern Links, and the \u201CShane Reti Medical School\u201D have meant my job in this House is done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Waikato has unlimited potential. It has land to grow on. It has an iwi willing to invest. It has the population to deliver results. It has the natural resources to continue to be the food bowl and energy hub of New Zealand. It has the industrial base to deliver for New Zealand. In Hamilton, we have demonstrated the power of promoting location and connecting with other centres, building infrastructure, and welcoming a diverse and growing population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThank you for the honour to serve the National Party and the people of Hamilton East in this Parliament. Kia manawanui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd3c581031214250877c3af359f475d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd3c581031214250877c3af359f475d6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the friends and family of the Hon David Bennett to make space for the friends and family of the Hon Jacqui Dean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224024902ad2c241f2bb1a144b0b9400c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224024902ad2c241f2bb1a144b0b9400c0\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, we certainly couldn\u2019t start this without my favourite sister being seated in the front of the gallery. Oh, no, that way [Points to the gallery] No\u2014anyway, I\u2019ve got so many of them, just putting it out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI was sitting in the hairdresser\u2019s chair\u2014I don\u2019t know if anybody noticed, but I was sitting in the hairdresser\u2019s chair\u2014at about 11 o\u2019clock this morning, after having bunked off my Speaker duties. I wanted to make myself presentable for this important speech\u2014you know, 18 years; maybe I have made a contribution. You know, it\u2019s really important\u2014I just wanted to give it something, and my hair was going to do that. So the hairdresser was back-combing me and he looked at me and he said, \u201CWere you really on Play School?\u201D And I thought to myself, \u201COK, there are some things you just cannot leave behind!\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWhen I entered Parliament in 2005, I did that to serve my community of Otago; my province. So I came in as the member of Otago. As electorate boundaries changed, I became the MP for what is now known as Waitaki, which is twice as big and one of the big five blue electorates in the New Zealand Parliament. You know, I\u2019ve always smiled as other MPs in this House talk of \u201Cgetting around\u201D their electorate. For me, getting around has meant traversing Central Otago, the Upper Clutha and W\u0101naka, the Waitaki Valley, the Mackenzie Country, East Otago, North Otago, Waitaki District itself, and South Canterbury. That\u2019s nearly 10,000 kilometres of roads in total, and obviously there\u2019s an enormous amount of driving involved in getting around the traps. You know, I can drive for eight hours a day or more in a recess week, and I can do that for a few days in a row. So if my productivity was measured in meetings and engagements and constituency work, it would be a major fail in the business environment\u2014and this news I haven\u2019t shared with my leader. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe real challenge, though, starts in the business involved in travelling to Wellington. So first question: where to fly from? It could be Dunedin Airport or it could be Queenstown. It could be Timaru Airport or Christchurch Airport. So on Monday of a House sitting week, I work my way from my home base in \u014C\u0101maru to say, well, Queenstown Airport, stopping along the way in \u014Cm\u0101rama, Tarras, maybe Cromwell for appointments. Then I fly to Wellington\u2014job done. The next challenge at the end of a sitting week is to decide where to fly back to, and that depends on where in the electorate I need to be on Friday. So the next question is: will my car be at the right airport? Where is my car? And that is the question\u2014quite seriously\u2014that is asked very often.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo for 18 years people have turned to me for help and advice. And while I am the wife of a well-known \u014C\u0101maru lawyer, I do decline to give legal advice. No, I\u2019m not magically a lawyer just by virtue of being married to one, and no, I won\u2019t casually ask Bill what he thinks about a constituent\u2019s issue. Some people have asked me to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI have the most wonderful team: Charlene, Alice, Rachael, Charlotte, Makona, and Sarah. Most of them have been with me for many years and they really know their stuff. Their roles include looking after constituents, managing my diary, and being my eyes and ears around our many communities. And a large part of their work is organising getting me to where I need to be and back again. Although, there was this one time back in 2007 when I was trying to find my way to a tiny remote rural school in the Maniototo in Central Otago. This was way before smartphones and Google Maps. I used an AA road map and it did not go well. So when the maps are folded, they are this big, right? But once you open them to try and find where you\u2019re going to be, you\u2019re dealing with something that is like literally this big; it\u2019s really hard to do while you\u2019re driving. So I set off through Ranfurly, past Gimmerburn and on to a really tiny remote school somewhere\u2014somewhere\u2014somewhere near Patearoa. Well, of course I got lost. Actually, I had absolutely no idea where I was and the stupid map, of course, was no help at all. I did have some signal, that is a miracle in and of itself, so I called the mothership, my \u014C\u0101maru office. All I could say was: \u201CI\u2019m lost\u201D. Pathetic, yeah, I know. To her credit, Char\u2014hi, Char\u2014may well have been rolling her eyes, but her tone was very helpful. Long story short, I didn\u2019t know where I was, she had no hope of knowing where I was, but that was the day she ordered me one of those newfangled satnavs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo I was sorted\u2014except for the time when we set off, this time all of us in the car, for, again, the Maniototo. The highlight of the trip this time was to be a visit to the new Lammermoor whiskey distillery, literally\u2014literally\u2014many miles from anywhere. Not only did we get very lost, but we took a very wrong turn and ended up travelling on what best can be described as a goat track. It was so rutted it was becoming impossible to literally drive any further, and can I just say that there wasn\u2019t much happy chatter in the car just at that point in time. So we ended up having to reverse back quite a long distance, probably about a kilometre it felt, or more, before there was even enough room for us to safely turn the car around. And we were so late; we were very, very late. But when we finally arrived our gracious hosts plastered smiles on their faces, welcomed us into the distillery, and gave us a nice dram of whiskey, and happiness was restored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe Waitaki electorate is a special part of the country and one that I have advocated for and championed every step of the way. Over the years there have been issues that I have felt very strongly about and have campaigned tirelessly for. I think of maternity services in W\u0101naka and Central Otago\u2014I have fought for years for the maternity facilities that this fast-growing region desperately needs, and it\u2019s not the region that needs the maternity services, it\u2019s the mums and the babies and the dads and the families. So I expressed cautious optimism when it was finally announced last year that a birthing facility had been secured and would be open in January of this year after it needed a short amount of renovation. Sadly, my scepticism was justified as this important facility for our mums and babies has still not opened its doors and will not likely do so until next year. How many more babies will need to be birthed on the floor of the midwife\u2019s office or on the side of the road on the way to Dunedin Hospital? I just think it is a failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll stay on health; recently many of you will have seen the headlines around Oamaru Hospital and the repeated closing of its emergency department during the night hours due to a locum doctor shortage. Just to give you a little bit of background on that, when Healthcare Otago withdrew from health services in 1998, Waitaki District Health Services rose from the ashes. It is a company owned by the local community through the council. Waitaki Health Services took over the provision of health services for us, and ever since then successive mayors, including Mayor Gary Kercher, council, and Oamaru Hospital themselves have had to fight endless, endless battles to get adequate funding. I just feel throughout that time that Oamaru Hospital has been very much the poor cousin to other health facilities elsewhere. You know, recent closures of the emergency department are heartbreaking\u2014heartbreaking. Hospital management have tried everything. It\u2019s particularly galling for the \u014C\u0101maru community to have to compete with Te Whatu Ora for locums. How can that be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart of the problem has been immigration policy. This has meant that the doctors and the nurses that we need have gone elsewhere these last couple of years. The region I have been very proud to represent has been held back by immigration settings which I don\u2019t believe in any way meet the needs of our local community and our local economy. Aged care, hospitality, agriculture, horticulture\u2014they\u2019ve all suffered from lack of workers. Just while I\u2019m at it, we now have a proposed housing and commercial development just out of Cromwell being opposed by Waka Kotahi because it would mean that people would be too reliant on private vehicles. What? We have no public transport!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not like Mayor Tim Cadogan and his council haven\u2019t tried. Any Government\u2014and I mean any Government\u2014needs to understand what life is like in places like Central Otago, where there is a chronic and severe shortage of housing for workers. With 3 to 4 percent growth year on year, we just need to plan for that, and we need to make it possible, because if we don\u2019t allow these projects to proceed, if we don\u2019t allow for more housing, affordable new housing, New Zealand will never be able to thrive in the regions. And I\u2019m here for the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo I want to acknowledge the mayors and deputies here today. Look, I\u2019ve so appreciated your willingness to work with me on matters that have been large and small across many years. It has been most helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWell, just to brighten things up, I want to acknowledge the members of the Kurow community who staged not one, not two, but three separate events to celebrate the opening of the new Kurow bridges. Full credit to them\u2014they knew how to lobby me, they knew how to lobby our Government, and they sure as heck know how to party. Shout-out again to the council and all of those who worked so hard in the establishment of the UNESCO Waitaki Whitestone Global Geopark. That is a significant, significant thing to happen for New Zealand and Australasia. It is the first in our part of the world. Again, you\u2019re it\u2014you\u2019re it, you guys up there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, back in Parliament, early on in my career, I tried and failed twice to get Easter trading reform through the House, with two members\u2019 bills. I had more success with increasing the fines for the smuggling of native species, and failed again with another member\u2019s bill which aimed again to protect native species. I\u2019ve sat on many select committees over 18 years, chairing four of them, and I\u2019ve really enjoyed the collegial and challenging nature of the work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EOccasionally, though, there is some high drama in select committees\u2014actually, it can be a lot of fun, select committees. We were in Christchurch with the Environment Committee some years ago hearing submissions on Resource Management Act reform. The room was absolutely packed, and submitters and supporters were making some very strong points and the passion really just began to build. The chair was Nicky Wagner, and she kept things well under control, but, ultimately, things did get a bit too fiery so, as chair, Nicky did all she could do and she stood, suspended the meeting, and cleared the room so that everybody could cool off. Look, I just want to thank you, because I will never forget the professional way that the clerk of the committee faced the crowd. She wasn\u2019t a big lady, but she faced the crowd and she calmly, with authority, cleared the room so that we could all go, \u201CThat was intense.\u201D and then start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI asked for the job of an Assistant Speaker, and I\u2019ve relished the role. My family in the gallery, including four of my five siblings, may well say that the role allows me to indulge my bossy tendencies, but I couldn\u2019t possibly comment. Members may think that when I\u2019m gazing into the middle distance with sort of an unfocused stare while they\u2019re speaking that there\u2019s not much going on in my head. Well, I can assure you there is. There\u2019s a fast and furious internal conversation going on, and it goes something like this: \u201CAre they speaking to the bill? No, they\u2019re not speaking to the bill. I just wish they would speak to the bill\u2014how much time have they got left to go? OK, they mentioned the bill; that\u2019s OK. They\u2019re not straying too far from Standing Orders. Oh, good grief\u2014they\u2019ve still got two minutes. Never mind. Well, OK, so, who\u2019s speaking next? I\u2019m going to have to remember their name\u2014oh, my dear Lord! I call\u2026\u201D Anyway, on it goes. It is a blast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EYou know what, though? I don\u2019t always get it right, and members certainly let me know when they disagree with my rulings\u2014thanks very much. But more recently, as some of the newer members have found their confidence and found their feet, we\u2019ve had some really good, quality debate in this House, and I think that democracy is being well served. I do have a plea: in the debate, in the heat of the moment, let\u2019s just play the ball\u2014let\u2019s just play the ball.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWhile I\u2019m here, I want to thank, again, the Office of the Clerk\u2014endless source of support and advice. We\u2019d be hopeless without the support of our officials, so thank you all very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EA cross-party group of us have been considering the Debbie Francis report into bullying and harassment here in Parliament. We\u2019ve made progress, but there is more work to be done. While we\u2019ve established the parliamentary commissioner for MP standards, I believe that more clarity is needed in the expectations of what is good behaviour for all of us who work on the parliamentary precinct and who have signed up to the code of conduct. This is work for the next Parliament, but, you know, it\u2019s a bit like what Patrick Gower said recently: he found himself at times forgetting that MPs were human\u2014I really think that\u2019s something for all of us to think about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EAnd my family, all of you: I\u2019m beyond thrilled that you\u2019re here, and my friends. Bill, you have been a most patient and supportive husband. Thank you. One of the best things about you, though, is that you intuitively know whether it\u2019s a \u201Cput the jug on\u201D kind of welcome when I come home or a \u201COh, God, I better quickly knock the top off a nice bottle of pinot gris\u201D kind of a welcome. I mean, the guy is just perfect. My adult children have shared me with constituents, with the National Party, and the wider public for the best part of 20 years. To Mick, Steffy, and Aiden: I\u2019m so proud of you all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWhen I first stood for Parliament 18 years ago, Otago was held by Labour, and I was told by National Party whip Simon Power to \u201Cjust win or else\u201D. Well, I did win, and I\u2019ve won five more times after that, but I have to say, that last election in 2020, oh my God, it got a bit dodgy at times. I\u2019ve done all that with the support of family, friends, and amazing volunteers and supporters. I\u2019d like to thank you all, but I\u2019d like to particularly mention Ele and Grant Ludemann, who have given so much of themselves to the National Party and to causes dear to their hearts. To my littlest sister, Ra, who is so loyal and so politically very astute. For 18 years, she has supplied me with gifts of barley sugars and muesli bars to keep me happy and safe in the car on long trips.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EServing as a Minister in the Bill English Government was an honour and a privilege, and I\u2019m very proud of what our Government achieved in those nine years as we navigated New Zealand through the global financial crisis and built the economy, the strong economy that New Zealand needed. Over the years I\u2019ve held many roles across different portfolio areas and have been absolutely blessed with fantastic support staff in Wellington. Some of you are here today: Gareth, Olivia, Paige, Charlotte, Makona: I want to thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWith the election only a few weeks away, I want to wish all the best to the Christopher Luxon - led National Party. Christopher, you are a fantastic leader, and you have a very talented team full of energy, focus, and talent\u2014and soon you will have a caucus full to the brim with new talent, which is good, because there\u2019s going to be plenty for you to do. It\u2019s a true privilege to have been a member of Parliament in the National Party and in this place, and to have made my contribution. I want to acknowledge Madam President, Sylvia Wood, and wish Miles Anderson all the best as he aims to take the seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ERecently, I was asked for advice on what the new crop of MPs should do when they\u2019re elected. My answer, and I didn\u2019t even give it too much thought, was\u2014well, it was simple: work hard, read your papers, put your phone down, and remember why you are here, and that\u2019s it. Man, it\u2019s been tough sometimes, but I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.20 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbc828d0aa77482a858343b3c1e36753\u0022\u003EWater Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223422bed778a945c6977d63ecdfbebb6d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000861\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229642baa678034ababfe4ac8ccc448e71\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022919a30ba99d1418cbbf0d4ebcd482113\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022919a30ba99d1418cbbf0d4ebcd482113\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. When we suspended the debate before the dinner break, we were considering Part 1. The question is that Part 1 stands part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022624e67cfbbb24af0ac906324d02e4dae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022624e67cfbbb24af0ac906324d02e4dae\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014that was very lucky. I just have a very quick question in terms of Part 1 at clause 3(2)\u2014well, clause 3(1), (2), and (3), I guess. It\u2019s talking about \u201CThis Act provides for\u2014\u201D, and this is the preliminary provisions, where it talks about \u201Cthe regulation of the price and quality of water infrastructure services, as set out in Part 2;\u201D. But the question I have is that in terms of the way that this is actually structured, when the regulatory impact statement actually states that the prices that consumers will pay will potentially be higher, how does the Minister feel that the price regulation in terms of providing quality water infrastructure services are actually looking after consumers when the prices are actually going to be quite high? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00223a92aee9903d435c8d8d6cdaa3f7e732\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a92aee9903d435c8d8d6cdaa3f7e732\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder if the member might just refer me in Part 1 to the exact provision she\u2019s referring to? I\u2019m just struggling to see where in Part 1 that matter is raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00229771a3abb57d4e0c9439c409ad6d582c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229771a3abb57d4e0c9439c409ad6d582c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. I know we\u2019ve just had a break, so I did ask two questions before the dinner break of the Minister. One is: what were the other models that were considered? Because, as I said prior to the dinner break, where we\u2019ve ended up is with a very heavy-handed regulation environment for these water companies, whether they\u2019re four or 10, or whatever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAlso, there is this definition of \u201Ccompetition\u201D which is included in clause 7 in Part 1, on page\u00A013. So what is the nature of that competition? We know that these entities are not going to compete across borders and we know that they\u2019re not going to compete for consumers. So I\u2019m quite interested to hear at a higher level why the Minister thinks, with that framework around customers and competition in general, that such a heavy-handed approach would be required, because if you look internationally, this is right up there in terms of a comprehensive, overarching sort of type of arrangement to regulate this small number of entities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002263e3978f829b43a6b40d41c92ce9b0cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263e3978f829b43a6b40d41c92ce9b0cc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I note for the member that there are two documents. One is Supplementary Order Paper 417, which has been tabled, which contains all the provisions, and it would just be useful, if there\u2019s any reference to that, that we know whether we\u2019re referring to the bill as it was reported back or to the Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of \u201Ccompetition\u201D, \u201Cworkable or effective competition\u201D is well recognised as a definition of competition throughout the Commerce Act and elsewhere. It is understood as an effective definition of \u201Ccompetition\u201D throughout the law generally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of the wider-ranging issues, I don\u2019t see any of that referred to in Part 1. But if there\u2019s anything else in respect of Part 1, I\u2019m happy to respond. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00227ecda4608d7b491c9dff0f4bd1633b7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ecda4608d7b491c9dff0f4bd1633b7b\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for coming along. I\u2019m trying to ascertain the role of the Commerce Commission, as you will appreciate, in its normal role of adjudicating how markets work in making sure that they are working in a safe and salient manner, and are abiding by all the things inside the boundaries of the law\u2014now, obviously, the role of the Commerce Commission in this capacity of adjudicating the financial wellbeing for consumers of all things to do with the water services entities legislation. What will it look like in terms of the Commerce Commission, in its role, giving effect to Treaty principles? If you could please answer that. What are those Treaty principles by way of definition, if they in fact have been laid out, and how will the Commerce Commission speak to those when it comes to the very salient issue of the management, the oversight\u2014the financial management and oversight\u2014of infrastructure assets and outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022412ca7e497124ecfaae720e794b54e19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022412ca7e497124ecfaae720e794b54e19\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his question on Part 1. The issue of how the Treaty principles and Treaty settlements are dealt with was very carefully considered. Obviously, the water services entities themselves have the primary obligation and the primary relationship with iwi, and it was determined that economic regulation and consumer protection provisions for the water services sector must be responsive to the Treaty and to Te Mana o te Wai. The commission is required to take into account the entities\u2019 Treaty-related obligations. So it\u2019s a secondary obligation on the commission itself, but that supports coherency across the wider water services reforms and, of course, recognises the Treaty principle that water is a taonga for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo the entities\u2019 obligations may warrant higher levels of investment activity. That\u2019s a matter for them in consultation with iwi and through their own structures. It must be considered by the economic regulator when regulating the entities, including when setting price-quality paths, and their other roles as well. It\u2019s entirely appropriate for the Commerce Commission to do so. It ensures that the economic regulation of the consumer protection regime is designed in a way that recognises Te Tiriti and the importance of Te Mana o te Wai to these reforms. It is important that it doesn\u2019t duplicate the roles across the wider regulatory framework. And I just note that the bill also makes it clear that the commission has to have the capacity, the understanding, and the knowledge of the relevant tikanga to discharge that role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022e30fc264a0694fc0b37740463d7b02b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e30fc264a0694fc0b37740463d7b02b1\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, for a very succinct answer, and I genuinely mean that. Could I add to the line of inquiry? Have the principles of Te Mana o te Wai been defined\u2014yes or no\u2014as you understand it to be so? And if not, and they are still in the process of being clearly defined, in the legislation as written how will the Commerce Commission run oversight in terms of outcomes if those principles are not clearly defined? I mean this with the greatest respect: Te Mana o te Wai statements are quite subjective in this capacity when it comes to the fiscal adjudication and functionality of all things to do with water services entities. If those definitions are ill defined or not clearly defined and subject to subjectivity, you might say, does not that run the risk of the very thing you seek to alleviate? That\u2019s duplication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002232043fb8092c4049a0c7dc3485f46526\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232043fb8092c4049a0c7dc3485f46526\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d invite the member to read the Supplementary Order Paper which clarifies that Te Mana o te Wai is the meaning set out in the national planning framework made under section 34 of the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223b9ef9ea83ba412293822508da44dcac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b9ef9ea83ba412293822508da44dcac\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E With all due respect to the Minister, I\u2019m still on the third attempt trying to get him to understand and provide a reason why we\u2019ve ended up with such heavy-handed regulation. I noted, prior to dinner, the functions of the Commerce Commission under clause 4 and the definition of \u201Ccompetition\u201D over the following pages. So what I\u2019m trying to understand is why the Minister thought it is absolutely necessary to have such a heavy-handed approach, when we\u2019ve, essentially, got a small number of entities that do not compete with one another. And what is the issue\u2014how would he define \u201Ccompetition\u201D? Why would that have driven the Labour Government to impose such a heavy-handed regulation? It\u2019s all in the definitions there, so, hopefully, the Minister can answer the question this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002295365980406148c19d2f377156aae807\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295365980406148c19d2f377156aae807\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00220f92ba6865a6401bb84beb81e8e794d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f92ba6865a6401bb84beb81e8e794d5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Are there any objections? There are none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228524042a9b6c47fd9b3903c74b9473b8\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m waiting for the Minister, hopefully, to stand at some point. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215242a20e93e41aebd6049f9259dd63e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: One moment, please, Andrew Bayly. The question is that Parts 1 to 5, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002212c4d5fb9056460cb8ffa2a07e2f11c8\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 5, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022799a867978044b099b6198a4fbbb96c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022799a867978044b099b6198a4fbbb96c5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Bayly. The reason I wasn\u2019t disposed to answer your question was because it didn\u2019t relate to Part 1, but now that leave has been sought and granted to take the matter as one question, I\u2019m at liberty to answer anything on any part of the bill, which makes life a little easier. The fact of the matter is that this isn\u2019t particularly heavy-handed. It\u2019s a well-recognised method of regulating natural monopolies, which, left to their own devices, have a tendency to act in a monopolistic manner, either by poor investment plans or by excess pricing or by poor service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo this, as I\u2019ve mentioned already in this Chamber in this committee stage, is used in respect of telecommunications and electricity already\u2014a well-proven, right-sized and appropriately scoped regulatory framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4537c87e532480690c51a4c517b9c89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4537c87e532480690c51a4c517b9c89\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s interesting that the Minister refers to the electricity sector amongst others as being models, but the reality is that those are not equivalent models, because the entities that are running those are commercially orientated companies\u2014the electricity industry, in particular. They are listed on the New Zealand Stock Exchange. They are very large commercial entities and, in fact, they have other operations other than just the regulated part of their business. So I find that example not particularly relevant, because these are, effectively, closed entities. There is no one else with the ability to compete with them, because there is a monopoly over the infrastructure that they have in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the risk of these in terms of shareholder risk, as I\u2019ve said right in my introductory comments before dinner, is that there is no shareholder, there are no accountabilities, there is no maximisation of profit, and you\u2019d have to argue that the maximisation of profit is probably the greatest risk towards needing or requiring a heavy-handed regulation approach. In these situations, we don\u2019t. We have entities that, if anything, are more likely to under-invest rather than over-invest. The pricing aspect of it, which the Minister mentioned, doesn\u2019t really come into play, because there is no issue around profit maximisation or whatever, because that\u2019s not what their purpose is. Their purpose is to deliver the service. Even if they did build up retained earnings, they can\u2019t pay it out to shareholders; they are not accountable to it. Everything would need to be retained within the business and, presumably, be applied to future investments and infrastructure investments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, again, I\u2019m trying to understand the concept of competition that the Labour Government is so keen to regulate, because that seems to be the driver. Or is the Minister just saying, \u201CBecause they happen to have a monopoly, we need to have a really heavy-handed economic approach to it.\u201D? My experience of regulatory frameworks of water assets around the world, particularly in Australia and the UK, is that you would apply this approach where there are commercial entities, not where they are quasi - Government-controlled closed entities with no real shareholders that will benefit from any additional profit or profit maximisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022f51aadd7bc1b429d9add73583a86d627\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f51aadd7bc1b429d9add73583a86d627\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for identifying in there that these are, indeed, not-for-profit entities. They won\u2019t be granting dividends. They are there for the benefit of the community. However, having said that, the expression of limiting excessive profits, which is what this legislation is in part about, is entirely appropriate, and that\u2019s why this framework was adopted. Obviously, in any business like this, there is an equity return, directly or indirectly, from the water services entity. It is conceivable that the water services entity could still earn a higher than normal return in the absence of scrutiny, or, conversely, run a lower than normal effective organisation, which would, again, indicate that competition or a similar framework wasn\u2019t working well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo this economic regulation framework is designed to allow regulated entities to grow and expand to serve more consumers, but not simply grow on the back of excess profits. This is enabled by allowing more investment, which would increase the size and value of an entity\u2019s asset base to accommodate any new investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill, which we can now debate, allows the commission to specify its price quality path, the maximum revenues that reflect the expected return. So, yes, workable and effective competition\u2014and you\u2019re right, this is a not-for-profit entity\u2014a little bit different than some of the electricity sector. But anywhere where there is an effective monopoly left to itself, the entities won\u2019t deliver best value or value that\u2019s for the long-term benefit of consumers into the market, so regulation is required and that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019ve got here. I\u2019m confident that we\u2019ve got it right and that the Commerce Commission has the skills, the expertise, the knowledge, and the background to implement this regulatory regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022031ec45e0b424c16a9517c3b627a80c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022031ec45e0b424c16a9517c3b627a80c2\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, if we could just go back to the Commerce Commission\u2019s role as a regulator in this instance. It had been offered to me on the back of conversations with Simon Court that they lack the technical capacity to actually understand the state of the infrastructure as we sit here today. There are projections and statements offered to me by him that perhaps, in some instances, the understanding of the assets\u2019 state of repair or disrepair might not be afforded to the Commerce Commission for the next two or three years. In other words, the state of repair as we sit today. So how will the Commerce Commission seek to regulate an industry when the state of asset management, as it is today, is still an unknown reality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002259d742a441b64088921d481470b5cca7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259d742a441b64088921d481470b5cca7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the comment. It\u2019s an apposite observation that the state of repair of many of our water assets is unknown and that is why, in the initial phase of this regulatory regime, the main power that the Commerce Commission will be exercising\u2014before full regulatory powers come into force\u2014will be information gathering. That will be information gathering on the state of the assets, the pricing regime, the investment required, investment plans in place, and what will be required in future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo this is a programme which, to be fully rolled out, will take several years, but absolutely right that because of the lack of investment and the diverse nature of these assets being spread around the country\u2014amongst many, many local authorities\u2014we don\u2019t know what we need to know, and that will be one of the first jobs of the commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b52496a4708849c49fcd4cf0223791c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b52496a4708849c49fcd4cf0223791c5\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I keep labouring this point about what is the basis of this and the reason for why we\u2019ve ended up with such comprehensive oversight\u2014economic regulation\u2014because that is the platform on which everything else follows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat I find intriguing is the basis for building the platform, and it\u2019s interesting looking at clause 12, \u201CPurpose of this Part\u201D. It says that \u201CThe purpose of this Part is to promote the long-term benefit of consumers of water infrastructure services in markets where there is little or no competition, and little or no likelihood of a substantial increase in competition\u201D. Then it goes on to say that the purpose is to provide \u201Cincentives to innovate\u201D, to have \u201Cincentives to improve efficiency\u201D, \u201Cshare with consumers the benefits of efficiency gains\u201D, and \u201Care limited in their ability to extract [excess] profits.\u201D It\u2019s that last one I find quite intriguing because the Minister just referred to it. He said we need to regulate, in effect\u2014I\u2019m paraphrasing\u2014if these entities end up achieving higher than their required returns, that might, in some ways, be damaging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the point is\u2014and I think the Minister\u2019s acknowledged it\u2014these entities can\u2019t pay out dividends. They can\u2019t pay out any remuneration to shareholders. The benefit sits inside the entity for the benefit of consumers. If that does build up retained earnings, which I presume these entities can, to meet future obligations\u2014in particular infrastructure obligations, which are often 30 years\u2019 life of these assets\u2014then I find the proposition with that is why I just can\u2019t understand why we\u2019ve ended up with such heavy-handed regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBecause this is one of the core differences that we have with the Labour Party in terms of oversight of this. We certainly agree that there should be the oversight, but the model that\u2019s been put forward by the Government is one of a heavy-handed nature, and that\u2019s what I\u2019m trying to ascertain from the Minister as to why he has promoted this, and what were the other options. Because there are many other options you could have put in place, but this is the foundation on which this whole bill rests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecc6c85c0d2c401496b3fccf592869a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecc6c85c0d2c401496b3fccf592869a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Look, this is the fourth time that question\u2019s been asked and now the fourth time it\u2019s been answered, so I don\u2019t propose to engage in any further discussion on it. If the member wants to know what other options were explored, I invited him to go to dia.govt.nz, where all of the options papers can be found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis approach is one that\u2019s tried and true, not only in New Zealand across other sectors but in respect of publicly held water entities in Scotland\u2014as the member will know well. Indeed, it drove significant cost savings and efficiencies there. So that\u2019s resulted in significant decreases in the cost of water services for customers there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe77819f01a04befbfa17eed95c20741\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe77819f01a04befbfa17eed95c20741\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, let\u2019s get specific. Clause 12 that I\u2019ve been referring to, can the Minister define what \u201Cexcessive profits\u201D means? Just while the Minister\u2019s doing that, can the Minister, again in the same clause, tell me what are the incentives to innovate that\u2019s going to make it and improve efficiency? And what are those sorts of measures? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think the big issue is actually whether there\u2019s under-investment or over-investment. Under-investment is not meeting the requirements and over-investment is going for gold-plating. I think that\u2019s probably the issue more likely to be of importance when determining the nature of investment spending and ultimately the pricing put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just want to now turn to clause 15, while the Minister\u2019s contemplating that, hopefully, or should I let the Minister stand? I\u2019m just looking at him there. Turning to clause 15, \u201CDeterminations made by Commission under this section\u201D, it talks about \u201CThe Commission may make determinations under this section specifying how 1 or more of the following apply to regulated water services providers: (a), information disclosure \u2026: (b) quality regulation: (c) price-quality regulation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019d quite like, and I think my colleague from ACT was starting to allude to this\u2014what is the linkage and overlap with Taumata Arowai in terms of quality regulation? Because all parties, I think even ACT, supported Taumata Arowai as the regulator in terms of setting standards. What is that interplay between this and the role of the Commerce Commission? Because ultimately it should be for the water services entity to take the instruction from Taumata Arowai and then to put them in place and put the investment frameworks in place to meet those over time. So again, I\u2019ll just leave that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d62a984e55214540a826a58e1b0d9686\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d62a984e55214540a826a58e1b0d9686\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll try\u2014I\u2019ve been given advice, if I\u2019ve got this wrong, but my understanding of Taumata Arowai is it is very much a health standard, and that\u2019s one aspect of quality, quite appropriately set by an independent body. But water service delivery quality comes in many forms. For example, the way in which the billing is done so that it\u2019s understandable to consumers is one form of service quality. Another form of service quality would be consistency and pressure. It doesn\u2019t affect the drinkability or usability of the water, but nevertheless is a quality standard. So, yes, Taumata Arowai has a quality function in terms of water being potable, being safe, healthy, and drinkable, as indeed this water is before us. But overall, in general, there are much wider quality standards and the commission will have a role in determining those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3230bf3abc74503b8acb7e33cb013a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3230bf3abc74503b8acb7e33cb013a3\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to ask some more questions around this\u2014the purpose of this part and how some of the issues that were identified in the regulatory impact assessment on this are going to be addressed. The problem definition, I suppose, is that there\u2019s been an establishment of four financially and operationally independent water services entities, which are intended to address current problems of poor water quality in some places and customer service, insufficient infrastructure investment, and inefficient pricing practices. But what they also will do is these four new entities will create natural monopolies and there won\u2019t be necessarily these strong members or directors of those monopolies who will have incentives to ensure that these inefficiencies are addressed, that the community voice is expressed, and ultimately that people get good quality service for a reasonable price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just read a little bit of this regulatory assessment. It says \u201CWithout economic regulation, the monopoly nature of the entities, combined with the lack of equity market and local government oversight, will likely be detrimental to consumer welfare. This is because the entities will have the ability and incentive to charge higher prices and provide services that are lower quality and less efficient and innovative than what would be seen in a workably competitive market. There is also an inherent power imbalance between large, vertically integrated monopoly suppliers and the consumers they service, creating a risk that customers of the four new entities will suffer unsatisfactory outcomes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo if I look to the purpose of this part, which is to promote the long-term benefit of consumers of water infrastructure services in markets where there\u2019s little or no competition and little or no likelihood of a substantial increase in competition, I\u2019d be curious about how this will address these issues raised of a natural lack of competition, or will actually reduce the competition potentially that\u2019s available with these four large monopolies which would have a natural incentive to charge higher prices, offer lower services and less investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIf I think about my region, I mean, my electorate alone is bigger than Belgium. That\u2019s just one small part of the lower half of the South Island, and we have these large areas where there are very many, many hundreds of kilometres between different settlements, in some cases, across the lower South Island. How will there be the ability to ensure that those areas actually have better investment? Because obviously there will need to be decisions made about where to invest. There won\u2019t necessarily be sufficient capital available for investment in all things. And if I just look at, say, Gore\u2014like, how will the needs of Gore, in terms of this, be expressed in a monopoly that\u2019s also concerned with, say, the needs of Christchurch? So just how are you going to deliver on this issue that\u2019s identified with the natural monopolies that these entities will establish?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022092d483436d9467385833623ac9560ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022092d483436d9467385833623ac9560ad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the Minister, if I could just say to members, there\u2019s been quite a number of questions just about this particular part, clause 12, \u201CPurpose of this Part\u201D. It\u2019s beginning to be a bit repetitive, but I will call on the Minister if he wants to address this again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb86653d07984d8c9f985bf4da80765d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb86653d07984d8c9f985bf4da80765d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Good to see it comes back down to the interests of Gore. I would invite the member to catch up. There\u2019s now 10 entities, so Gore won\u2019t be part of the same entity as, say, Christchurch, and that was in fact one of the drivers of that under Minister McAnulty, which was indeed to ensure there was a better local voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the changes there\u2014a separate bill, but happy to just comment on it briefly\u2014was to ensure that each local body would have a voice in the governance structure of those entities. And, of course, ensuring the long-term benefit of consumers, which is this bill\u2014the regulatory aspect of this bill includes all consumers. I note that one of the very good improvements of the Finance and Expenditure Committee was to identify vulnerable customers. Now, that might identify as perhaps people on low incomes, but I think it also identifies people in rural locations who might not otherwise get good access to water services. So those things have been addressed and I think we\u2019re in a good space in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022f52759847c944ed1812eccbdb758fbde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f52759847c944ed1812eccbdb758fbde\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, If I could draw your attention back to some remarks you made earlier about the primary role of the Commerce Commission in terms of information gathering, I think you said, and it may take\u2014I\u2019m paraphrasing because I apologise, I can\u2019t remember your exact wording\u2014several years to source the needed information over the state of the assets, their repair or state of disrepair before subsequent regulations came into effect. What sort of cost-benefit analysis has been done as a counterfactual, if any at all, that you want to speak to or are aware of, in terms of how it would stifle investment in infrastructure asset management, water infrastructure asset management, in the interim period, if you\u2019ve used the words \u201Cseveral years\u201D, and what does several years ultimately look like whilst we\u2019re going through this theorised information-gathering preamble to the regulations that follow it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226e83ba8badce4bdcb61f7221263d8767\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e83ba8badce4bdcb61f7221263d8767\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E If the member wants to see a cost-benefit analysis, they\u2019re all available on the Department of Internal Affairs website, and this debate is not the place for that. In terms of time lines, there are two slightly different time lines, one for Entity A which is the Auckland - Northland entity, which is more prepared to embark on this journey, and the second time line is for the other nine entities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBy way of example, rather than going into every minute detail, up until the middle of 2024, information gathering will go on for Entity A. Then the pre-regulatory period, taking that information and developing input methodologies, models, and so on, so that we can understand how it will roll out\u2014that will occur in 2024 through to June 2026. The first regulatory period for Entity A will start on 1 July 2027, and that\u2019s when the quality regulation will be in place. Then if we\u2019re looking at price quality regulation, that would be the second regulatory period which would begin on 1 July 2030.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00228b25e261f09c49aca37329b2d92757cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b25e261f09c49aca37329b2d92757cc\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E You made the comment about\u2014something about we\u2019re a bit repetitive, but, unfortunately, I just would note that we\u2019ve agreed that we\u2019re going to do it all at once, all parts, but we\u2019re obviously working our way logically through the bill. I have asked some very specific questions and I\u2019m yet to get a response on them, and I don\u2019t want to keep going back to them, but they have been asked for a reason, namely: what is the definition of excess profit? It\u2019s not a stupid question. What is the return that would be expected of these entities, and above that, what does that mean, \u201Cexcessive\u201D? Because it does have a play in terms of pricing or the conversation we\u2019re about to have around quality pricing framework, all that sort of stuff. So I would urge the Minister to address some of the specific questions, otherwise I will keep going back to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, I want to just move on in terms of the next question around moving into the timing and nature of the input methodologies. Obviously, those are going to be determined by the commission during the initial period\u2014I\u2019m referring to clause 18 here. Can the Minister provide us, provide the committee and, hopefully, some of the listeners with some information on what would be the nature of those import methodologies? Can you give us some examples? Again, I\u2019m seeking specific questions rather than just trying to stand up and give a speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdfeed0f7b634773bd297337d80f2ea9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdfeed0f7b634773bd297337d80f2ea9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I am not an expert in input methodologies, nor am I an expert on what profits are excessive. The experts in that are the Commerce Commission. So the reason why I won\u2019t be standing up and telling you an economic definition of what an excessive profit looks like is because that job has been given to the Commerce Commission, who will develop models and methods based on the information they gather to do that. So I won\u2019t be designing input methodologies here, nor will I be determining what an excess profit looks like, because those are the very questions we\u2019re asking the Commerce Commission to look into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022a577c1fb19a144ffa43b9bc896ae420f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a577c1fb19a144ffa43b9bc896ae420f\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you, Madam Chair, for that clarification of the number of entities. I have to say, I did think it was 10, but I picked up the regulatory impact statement from the Table which said it was four. Ha, ha! So it seems there\u2019s some difficulties\u2014and this is prepared by one of the Government agencies, obviously, so there\u2019s some challenges on keeping up with the fast-moving nature of the changes. And maybe we\u2019ve also got this 102-page Supplementary Order Paper that we\u2019ll need to work our way through as well, which brings a number of changes. I\u2019m just going to ask a question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d74330b3c4b242d89b14d3479eab7774\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Enjoy the reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c40cee6c185242489c44ae627714dd15\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248a27f3ea54d40b78f06ee49f017eb7d\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Enjoy the reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5bead5a656d49529f3aee89b63c5bdc\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CEnjoy the reading.\u201D Oh, thank you. Yes, it\u2019s 102 pages of reading of this new Supplementary Order Paper that we\u2019ve got here, which has got fairly chunky things in it. But one of the points that was raised, actually\u2014and also in the departmental disclosure statement it also talks about four entities, interestingly, but I\u2019ll leave that for another day. But one of the issues that it raises is that there\u2019s a risk of uncertainty in terms of the economic regulation, which the industry hasn\u2019t been subject to before, which could lead to some water entities acting too cautiously, focusing on compliance with little regard to efficiency in an effort to avoid any risk of contravening the provisions of the Act. And I do note, when I have a quick flick through this 102-page Supplementary Order Paper, that there are some pretty significant penalties in here for individuals\u2014say, $500,000 or $5 million in some cases. So I can certainly see that there\u2019ll be some caution being exercised by those who have decision-making responsibilities in terms of this Act. It may mean they will be focusing on this issue identified here, on compliance rather than efficiencies. And I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s view on how that balance has been struck and what has been done to try to address that concern that was raised in the departmental disclosure statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002271d75ff5376d4339bcbd2b6ad44d650f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271d75ff5376d4339bcbd2b6ad44d650f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Just in terms of input methodologies, you might want to have a quick look at clause 27, which does give some framework around what kind of things might be in that, and I probably should have referred to that earlier. In terms of the point that this might stifle innovation or be inflexible, that is something that must be held in mind by the regulator. That\u2019s why it\u2019s important that this regulatory regime needs to be flexible to allow for different forms of economic regulation. That\u2019s why we haven\u2019t imposed it. It\u2019s still being designed and applied in a staged approach so as to be able to adapt to the changes as they emerge. So that\u2019s why this bill contains the flexible level of economic regulation to essentially shift up and down as to what\u2019s needed. If the market or the entities operate well, very light-handed regulation would be needed. If it\u2019s clear that consumers aren\u2019t getting a fair deal, then perhaps more will be needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut the bill also allows other water services providers such as community and private water schemes to be designated into this regime as well and to the consumer protection provisions if a Minister deems that necessary\u2014so that\u2019s in clauses 139E and 139L. So if a water provider started ripping off its customers and wasn\u2019t regulated, they could indeed be brought in. That\u2019s really just an example of how this is a flexible regime that can be scaled up and down and entities can be brought into it as required to address the concerns that the member no doubt has for his community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022cce49e09419542b99127de38e17e613c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cce49e09419542b99127de38e17e613c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I love that expression \u201Cripping off customers\u201D that the Minister\u2019s just used. Well, that was my point. Why would they rip off their customers? Because they\u2019re owned by the customers that control them. There is no commercial incentive to rip your customers off. So that was my point earlier, but we didn\u2019t get a definition on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIn terms of timing, the regulatory period\u2014obviously we have this information-gathering period which, basically, takes three years, and then we move into the next period, which can\u2019t be any longer than six years. Why is the information-gathering process expected to take so long? Because obviously that\u2019s delaying some of the other types of regulation that you might expect to come into play, but it seems to be a very long period of time to capture the information. I take the point\u2014and the Minister is going to stand up, I have no doubt, and say, \u201COh, they\u2019re brand new entities, blah, blah, blah.\u201D But all councils have been required to have asset management plans. They\u2019ll have all that sort of stuff that they can pass across. I\u2019m just intrigued why the Government thought that the information disclosure component\u2014the first part of the regulations\u2014is going to take so long. So it\u2019d be helpful for some insight on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002256251faca74445d4972bc21655408a75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256251faca74445d4972bc21655408a75\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister Webb, could I please bring your attention to Part 1, clause 8, and, reading verbatim, if I may: \u201CIn [the] Act, unless context otherwise requires, drinking water infrastructure services\u2014(a) means \u2026 [abstract] storage, treatment, transmission, or transportation\u201D. I\u2019m trying to square away in my mind, in the sphere of the Commerce Commission after the early preliminary information gathering period of time and the state of the assets, quite how transportation plays out in terms of the role of the Commerce Commission in its capacity as a regulator to determine the health\u2014and I\u2019m trying to figure out the right wording here: the health of the infrastructure in transportation of drinking water. Now, what does that look like? How wide will that be in terms of what the role of the Commerce Commission is\u2014means, obviously, and we can canvass it: \u201Ctreatment, transmission, or transportation\u201D. Well, how wide is the scope going to be in terms of the transportation of mechanised infrastructure, in terms of water infrastructure that\u2019s to do with transportation? I mean, how wide do you want to go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022260108a1d3294d8e9af3ab2a26527cdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022260108a1d3294d8e9af3ab2a26527cdc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Just to note, Mr Bayly talked about ripping off customers, and it\u2019s not impossible, for example, that an entity might, sort of, gold-plate infrastructure or even gold-plate\u2014and may well over-invest or, in fact, invest in their own office premises, or otherwise use their assets in an ineffective manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of why does information gathering take so long, I think Mr Bayly is over-optimistic about the quality of the information that\u2019s out there already. If anything, this process has shown that one of the critical failures across some local bodies is that they don\u2019t actually know the quality of their own infrastructure and, essentially, the extent and nature of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of transportation, now, that\u2019s an example of the drafter being rightly flexible in their approach, trying to make sure that they\u2019re not constraining the entity in the way they move water from one place to another. Transportation could conceivably be through pipes; it could also be perhaps captured by transmission. There are other situations where water might be transported, in fact, by a motor vehicle. But the fact of the matter is it\u2019s a definition which is seeking to capture the movement of water, however that entity might choose to achieve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022372aa24d708847f78a610f845d2e4756\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022372aa24d708847f78a610f845d2e4756\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, yes, OK, just carrying on with input methodologies\u2014I\u2019m just wondering whether I\u2019ll rebut some of that, but I won\u2019t. It\u2019s interesting the Minister made the aspersion around the quality of assets, the water and waste-water assets of the councils, and said, \u201COh, well, maybe, you know, you\u2019d be surprised.\u201D Actually, when I look at clause 27, at the actual requirements, they\u2019re quite specific. The first one says, \u201Cmethodologies for evaluating or determining the following\u201D, \u201Ccost of capital\u201D\u2014well, that\u2019s not a hard job. If you went to an economist, they could probably do that in a week, because cost of capital for these types of entities, it\u2019s standard practice, very easy. Capital asset pricing model, betas, whatever\u2014they\u2019re all readily available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second point, \u201Cvaluation of assets, including depreciation, and treatment of revaluations\u201D, presumably, that is going to take place anyway, because, as I understand it, these new entities have been set up, they\u2019ll have to set up with new assets, and there will have to be a transfer of value back to the councils as well as an assignment of debt. So, before you can set them up, that would\u2019ve already taken place, I presume, to establish values\u2014otherwise, we really would be ripping off the councils, wouldn\u2019t we, and, ultimately, the residents of those areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThird one, \u201Callocation of common costs\u201D, well, yeah, OK, that\u2019s pretty easy. They\u2019re going to be brand-new operations. And \u201Ctreatment of taxation\u201D, well, I didn\u2019t think there was taxation on these entities. Maybe the Minister can elaborate on what the taxation is. Are these entities subject to tax, and, if so, what\u2019s the nature of that? Are they paying at a corporate rate? Are they paying at a different rate than that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo there we are\u2014we\u2019ve got four. Maybe I\u2019ll let the Minister respond to those before I\u2019m moving on to the next lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00222c11979e7bf64b5db23fe83b9ea44341\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c11979e7bf64b5db23fe83b9ea44341\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, going back to this transportation issue, leaving aside reticulation, which we can understand going through conduits, pipes, etc., etc., treatment facilities\u2014transportation: would this, yes or no, include trucks? Now, I live in rural New Zealand. Quite often, drinking water is taken via the supplier to households. I mean, we\u2019re on tank water, as you can well imagine. Transportation is, again, very subjective; it\u2019s a very wide definition here. Would it include the regulatory oversight from the Commerce Commission for those transporting drinking water, i.e., on a road network in trucks, quite specifically, or quite separate from a reticulated system? Yes or no, please, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022f65fd7ec0dec41d4bc7a0cb45dd63443\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f65fd7ec0dec41d4bc7a0cb45dd63443\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just hoping the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs is going to respond to my questions on clause 27. But, anyway, let\u2019s carry on\u2014clause 27(1)(c), because they\u2019re all relevant. So this is the other part of the input methodologies, \u201Cmethodologies for capital expenditure projects\u201D. So these entities need to provide the following: \u201C(i) requirements that the regulated water services provider must meet, including the scope and specificity of information required, the extent of independent verification and audit,\u201D\u2014so while it\u2019s a lot of words, it\u2019s not that difficult\u2014\u201Cand the extent of consultation and agreement with other parties;\u201D. Mm-hmm! OK. And \u201C(ii) the criteria the Commission will use to evaluate capital expenditure proposals;\u201D. So that\u2019s the Commerce Commission actually doing some work. Again, investment in infrastructure projects are pretty standard, sort of, criteria that are used to do it. And \u201C(iii) time frames and processes for evaluating capital expenditure proposals,\u201D. So that\u2019s another major part of the input methodology. Again, that doesn\u2019t seem long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat I do find fascinating, and I would have thought we might have included in this list, is probably the biggest driver in terms of getting value for money for from infrastructure investment: what the procurement model is. What is the model that these entities are going to use to procure? Do you take the approach that Watercare\u2019s adopted in the last couple of years, to form long-term agreements with a number of large entities and say to them we will commit to doing all our infrastructure with you over the next 10 years? As an example, one of those partners is Downer, and I think Fletcher Construction are in there as well. Or are they going to go down Auckland Transport piece by piece, breaking down motorways into subparts and trying to compete and procure badly, as they do it, down the southern motorways that we\u2019ve observed? But each one of them will have a different outcome. They will be measured differently in terms of what the long-term cost has been\u2014not the short term, the first-up all-up cost, because there will be a maintenance element to it. And so that\u2019s why I\u2019m surprised, also, that the issue around the procurement model wouldn\u2019t have been part of these input methodologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut there we are, we got two key sets of import methodologies. I\u2019m really keen to understand what the Minister thinks about them and why it takes so long to get a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002248c0a374f4bc4f18adf37c9f0969e8da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248c0a374f4bc4f18adf37c9f0969e8da\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E It took quite a long time to get to a question there, Mr Bayly. Procurement practices are not part of this bill. That\u2019s part of the Water Services\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0c760b4940746d4a33d9c1b913a1a88\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0e78257b5444943820a4a26b0d407f4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Because it\u2019s part of the Water Services Entity Amendment Act 2023. So catch up on that one. In respect of cost of capital, given that he\u2019s\u2014at least on his web page, it says he was a merchant banker, I think he\u2019d know better than most that the valuation of cost of capital is a much fought-over question and there are many methodologies, and exactly how you look at it is highly sensitive And so that\u2019s exactly why we want an effective input methodology to do that. Other than that, good reading of clause 27.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMr Cameron, yes, look, water transported by truck\u2014if it\u2019s part of the operations of the entity, it could become a part of the model. But it\u2019s about the regulation of the entity itself and the costs that it has, not third parties who might be doing it in a different manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002240ad8dfa17f243819994a5df4ce14f6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240ad8dfa17f243819994a5df4ce14f6d\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, well, thank you. That was a great response from a professor of laws, but, actually, working out the cost of capital is a very simple exercise. It\u2019s called capital asset price model. It has about four variables: risk-free rate, beta\u2014and it\u2019s a pretty easy model to work it out. The issue is just working out what those inputs are. To a large extent, they remain steady over time in terms of the risk-free rate, and then applying that to the risk factor of the industry\u2014which is, again, a low-risk industry. It has norms, very easy norms\u2014lesson one. So, obviously, the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs doesn\u2019t have much expertise in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just want to return now to the issue of this duration. So, I presume, because the Minister hasn\u2019t actually answered, from his answers, that he thinks this is all going to take a long period of time. Procurement does actually drive costs of infrastructure and, ultimately, to the price\u2014I make that difference with the Minister. But just turning now to this issue around clause 23 and how it relates to clause 22(1)(a), and determining the duration of subsequent periods. This is, of course from, 1 July 2027, which cannot be any longer than six years\u2014well, that\u2019s what it says in Subpart 2. But in clause 20(2A), it says that this \u201CCommission may set out different periods for different regulated water services providers as the Commission sees fit.\u201D It goes on in clause 23 to talk about the Minister making that determination. Let\u2019s just start with an easy question: under what circumstances or reasons would the Minister contemplate delaying that or changing the date that\u2019s not currently within the three-year periods that are set out in the bill? What would be likely scenarios in which the Minister would contemplate where he might choose to make that change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc74019446c94d40bf5e13a1d8083211\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc74019446c94d40bf5e13a1d8083211\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E After receiving and considering a recommendation from the Commission under section 139H; and as satisfied of the matter, set out in section 139H(1)(a); and in relation to a regulated water services provider that services the Auckland and Northland area, which is set out in the bill, of course. Look, in terms of what would I need to do as Minister, or any future Minister, to make a decision, I must say, Mr Bayly, it\u2019s really not helpful to set it out in this forum, because that is a matter of discretion, as bound by the bill, for a future Minister. It would be exceedingly unhelpful to constrain that in any way by, essentially, my reckons on what I think I would do. The basis upon what can be exercised at law is set out in the legislation, but it needs to be those rules which determine that, rather than my opinion of when that might be appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce99836747494622beb205a4ac47adee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce99836747494622beb205a4ac47adee\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I did ask specifically about taxation. This is clause 27(1)(a)(iv), because it specifically mentions treatment of taxation. Hopefully, he can turn to his advisers and might get a little bit of advice on: what is the nature of taxation; are these entities subject to some form of corporate tax or what form of tax are they subject to? And I see them just turning over a few pages there, that would be great just to give them a bit of time before they brief you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just want to move on now to Subpart 4, new clause 34(2A): \u201Cin relation to [the] statutory water \u2026 [entities], information required to be disclosed must include information about how the entity is fulfilling its objective to support and enable planning processes, growth, and housing and urban development and, in particular, the entity\u2019s level of responsiveness in relation to those issues\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow I\u2019m going back under principal stuff, which I think the Minister might be a bit more comfortable dealing with rather than specifics; what is the Minister\u2019s view around what these water entities must do to fulfil and support those objectives? Is it proactive? Is it reactive? Is it when the conflict comes between whether an entity is going to fund new developments for new housing, let\u2019s say in a greenfields area as opposed to a brownfields infill or as opposed to repairing the pipes by putting plastic down the middle of them to meet the higher pressure standards which the Minister specifically referred to as part of the quality standards\u2014what is the role of the water services entity and how does it balance those competing demands? Because, sure as eggs, those are competing demands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229733b509aea644e69973c5b2907c6e91\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on the Minister, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022600d4272ceaa48428d2e24859ee33eb2\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Tax, tax, tax!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd7293d2b80945689cc0984bbee6062d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd7293d2b80945689cc0984bbee6062d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Well, you are the party of \u201Ctax, tax, tax\u201D and thank you for yelling that out, Mr Bayly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo it would be expected that these not-for-profit entities would be unlikely to be paying income tax, for obvious reasons, but given how they are being structured it\u2019s likely that they will have residual tax obligations which will feed into the model. So that\u2019s really making sure that the input methodologies are fit for purpose in terms of taking these entities as they come so that the regulated water services providers may have some tax obligations\u2014for example, income derived from regulated water services provided as a trustee\u2014and that\u2019s why there\u2019s the treatment of tax under clause 27(1)(a)(iv). It will allow the commission to specify methodologies which allow it to recognise the impact of tax in its price-quality path determinations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of the material around the obligation to support and enable planning processes, the member should be well aware, because I think it was after a robust discussion at committee that those provisions were put into this\u2014and I thank the member for his input into that, I believe, on the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014and it is appropriate that that is part of the thinking around any role of the commission in regulating the entities to make sure they are discharging the function of supporting and enabling planning processes, growth, and housing and urban development and the entity\u2019s responsiveness in relation to those issues. And then that refers back to the other legislation which is entirely appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a158db4b59a34ec9a9ce36ddffe5e9c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a158db4b59a34ec9a9ce36ddffe5e9c9\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3118717f55e449dba9fb39acfd1db26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3118717f55e449dba9fb39acfd1db26\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I know our Labour members on the other side\u2014we\u2019re at only clause 37 and this bill goes to 146, so I would encourage members on the other side, rather than sitting there passively waiting to go and celebrate and do other things tonight, to actually join in the conversation and actually provide some input.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I think that was a revelation of the night from the Minister. So I just want to be very, very clear because, you know, I\u2019ve asked this many times of the officials during the process: what is the nature of the ownership and what is the nature of the entity that we\u2019re talking about here with these four-cum-10 water services entities? That, as I understand it, is they are not companies, but they have a special meaning. So I just want to be very, very clear, and I\u2019m looking at the officials here. I presume these entities have to account for GST, but can the Minister just give a straight answer: are these entities required to pay tax on their activities\u2014first of all, in their regulated activities as set out in this bill, and their non-regulated activities which I am about to get in to? But I just want to a very clear answer from you Minister, hopefully, from your officials, and I see they are still debating back there\u2014OK. So I hasten to carry on, unless they are ready to talk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4a7ea35bfae4b738f5ab9f2d0054539\u0022\u003EDr Liz Craig\u003C/span\u003E: No, carry on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022168ae5189608451b81abba76ad4d1779\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019ll carry on. So this gives rise to clause 35 about goods and services. The reason I was just asking this about non-regulated is: \u201CIf the regulated water services provider provides goods or services that are not subject to regulation under this Part \u2026 the provider may be required to\u201D provide a whole lot of stuff to the Commerce Commission\u2014consolidated financial statements, reconciliation of information provided, information on the financing of all businesses. Can the Minister help the committee in terms of saying we all understand what the role is of regulated services under the water services: to provide water, waste water and stormwater. So, obviously, the contentious third, but what are the activities that a water company or water services entity is permitted, under this, to be able to do? What would be the nature of those activities\u2014therefore subject to this very specific clause, clause 35? So two big questions, about tax and then secondly about this, and, hopefully, those officials of yours at the back there are going to answer this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWow\u2014I\u2019ve got to keep going do I? Well, a good thing we\u2019re looking ahead, because I just want to give the Minister plenty of time to give us the right answer to this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, I want to turn to clause 38, in terms of monitoring compliance for this section, and this is about the entity providing a quality path which is\u2014as you know, the Minister used one example, pressure. Another one might be water colour, which is a normal one\u2014might be some other stuff. I just would really be keen to understand this overlap with Taumata Arowai, as I\u2019ve talked about earlier, in terms of what that means\u2014because where it says in clause 38(2)(a) \u201Ca written statement that states whether the provider has complied with the quality paths applying to that provider\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s two issues: one has got to comply with Taumata Arowai because that\u2019s the one that sets the standard, and the second one, I presume, is meaning it\u2019s got to comply with the requirements of the Commerce Commission. Maybe the Minister can be clear about that. Then it goes on to say, \u201Ca report on the written statement referred to [just above] that is signed by an auditor\u201D. So here we go. We are going to have a written statement done by the company which complies with an independent entity called Taumata Arowai, then it\u2019s got to get an auditor to do it. First question: what\u2019s the nature of that auditor? Is it financial auditor defining on a quality standard, or is it some other auditor? What is the nature of that auditor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThere we are; we have got a couple of questions in there. I can carry on, but, hopefully, now you\u2019ve got some answers to those tax questions, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022f20031dcbcba47f5b3b5ca9a97a827ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f20031dcbcba47f5b3b5ca9a97a827ec\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for your wide-ranging discourse there. Ownership structure issues, which you\u2019ve asked on a number of occasions, are simply not part of this legislation, so I won\u2019t be addressing that. Similarly, the general tax structures are also part of the Water Services Entities Act 2022 and whilst I have addressed it in respect of the input methodologies, the wider tax issues are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EClause 35 is simply about disaggregating unregulated from regulated services and sets out exactly how that is to be done. In terms of your questions around clause 38, you\u2019re, essentially, putting, I would say, the cart before the horse because the very question is what those quality standards are. That is the question that is for the regulator to decide, not for me to give my reckon here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd as for audit, it\u2019s well recognised that audit is simply a function of accreditation and ascertaining the meeting of standards, and despite your background, there are plenty of auditors out there who are not financial auditors but are quality auditors, and I\u2019m sure the commission will be well placed to identify an appropriate auditor or auditors for the task.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022906c8925307e4a3d96bdbf762121b6de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022906c8925307e4a3d96bdbf762121b6de\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to go to Part 2, clause 39(3), where it actually talks about the \u201Cquality path may include\u2014(a) incentives for \u2026 regulated water services [providers] to maintain or improve its quality of supply, and those incentives may include (without limitation) either of the following:\u201D and it goes on to talk about compensation schemes that set a minimum standard. I think having targets\u2014I would presume quality targets\u2014is actually a good thing. Quality standards are good things. Service performance is actually having a target to make sure that they perform. I\u2019m trying to find out if the Minister could actually elucidate whether that compensation actually goes out to the customers; if the service targets are actually not met, whether that compensation is indeed to customers who actually pay a price for their water, for example. If the Minister could actually find out in what form that might be in, if that is a case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe ranking system, I quite like. You know, can we rank the Government in terms of the performance? But I think having a ranking and a rating system is actually a good one, I think, for customers, because I think when the water services are actually not performing well\u2014perhaps if they don\u2019t reach a particular rating or ranking\u2014that maybe the customers don\u2019t actually pay any money for that. Is that how it actually works? I\u2019m trying to actually understand how that all pans out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022d888817c71f24ad9a11436ee01ecca98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d888817c71f24ad9a11436ee01ecca98\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I must admit I\u2019ve got to compliment the Minister for getting very professional at brushing off questions. I am staggered that the Minister does not know the answer about whether these entities are going to pay tax or not. It\u2019s a pretty fundamental question. Anyway, I am intrigued. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI still want to return to clause 38 because I think this is a classic case of over-regulation. So we\u2019re talking about quality standards, right? About quality or quality regulation. So \u201CFor the purpose of monitoring compliance with this section, the Commission may, in addition to exercising\u2026powers under section 98 of the Commerce Act\u201D. This is \u201Cin addition\u201D. OK, all right, we\u2019re in the light-handed regulation process here, really. Yeah right. First thing: the company\u2014or the entity; no, it can\u2019t be company because it doesn\u2019t pay tax\u2014the so-called \u201Cwhatever it is\u201D. Not a Government entity; it can\u2019t be a Government entity. It can\u2019t be a Crown, because the Crown doesn\u2019t own it. It can\u2019t be a TLA\u2014a territorial local authority. It\u2019s something in between there but, you know, we\u2019ll get there. Maybe a Schedule 27 company? I don\u2019t know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAnyway we\u2019re at that point, right? So doing quality, first thing\u2014I love this\u2014the first thing it\u2019s got to do is provide \u201Ca written statement that states whether the [water services entity] has complied with the quality paths applying to that provider:\u201D. OK, cool, cool. So that\u2019s a fair sting. Right, good, got that? Secondly, \u201Ca report on the written statement referred to [just above] that is signed by an auditor\u201D\u2014an auditor; an auditor! OK, so the Minister\u2019s sort of implied\u2014well, it doesn\u2019t need to be financial. There\u2019s lots of auditors, but it is an auditor. So it\u2019s got to be an auditor of something \u201Cin accordance with any form [prescribed] by the Commerce Commission:\u201D OK, that\u2019s the number two thing they\u2019ve got to do. The number three thing they\u2019ve got to do around their quality: \u201Csufficient information to enable the Commission to properly determine whether a quality path has been complied with:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I think all that means is maybe the commission would say, \u201CWell I know you\u2019ve done the written statement and you had it audited, but you still might have to give us a bit more.\u201D OK, all right, get that. And then (d)\u2014fourth thing\u2014\u201Ca certificate, in the form specified by the Commission and signed by at least 1 board member\u2026or, if there is no board, the person who operates the provider,\u201D. All right? Now, wow, that is one hell of a lot of bloody forms, reports, oversight, monitoring. This is what I was trying to say and to ask the Minister at the start. Why are we so heavy handed? Why are there these layers and layers? Why does a board member need to be involved in signing off a quality thing? What is the driver behind this? This is the trouble with\u2014and it just pervades its way through this legislation\u2014these overwritten, over-proscribed, over-egged regulations and controls when you\u2019re talking about, basically, some entity that is not competing with others; it has no incentive. Even if it charges too much, the so-called profits can only be retained and invested in future infrastructure. There\u2019s nothing else it can do with it. It can\u2019t pay a dividend. So, hopefully, the Minister can help us with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad0957c62180428cab690544b6e0cb20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad0957c62180428cab690544b6e0cb20\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecca708d9c884c6fa04e6b94424434ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecca708d9c884c6fa04e6b94424434ec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question will be now put. All those in favour will say Aye, to the contrary No\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f666d456c744e77866bc86591b6d3b9\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I thought that one person couldn\u2019t make multiple requests to close the debate\u2014the same person could not make multiple requests to close the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227abc9568c3574b33a2663629949fbcbb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, people can make unlimited requests to close the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022086e3768b5224ba5930be3364a2fa023\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s outrageous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ba456fc4018456aa85c363b0660545f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is\u2014that is actually correct. I was in the process of closure. The question is that the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022233433d4bffe4e788ffcf8d1b0cf7be3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba39ca315cce4babb831f8d535ce5ec1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba39ca315cce4babb831f8d535ce5ec1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 417 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022597d8945389f4453850d8f7f1fe7c3fc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00229f041b0487a14038af2f238e952ed2c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f041b0487a14038af2f238e952ed2c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Parts 1 to 5, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f06f07bee03a48a0ab6f2194df8c4e45\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 to 5, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 5, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000979\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000980\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a725643041a0495eb328e3453672d59f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a725643041a0495eb328e3453672d59f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002208e4b2fff0f74a6cbcfeb357ac4b6cf0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the reported be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000982\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000983\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022da6c952543024516912f05e3ff7292a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da6c952543024516912f05e3ff7292a4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222633edeae2de4e2cae87d4d68a0dfda0\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002248a2e8b1ad5a42c991f27ac157d821ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248a2e8b1ad5a42c991f27ac157d821ad\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. I move, That the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of a suite of legislation designed to give effect to the affordable water reforms. It introduces an economic regulation and consumer protection regime, which will ensure that the entities promote the long-term interests of consumers by providing services that are efficient, effective, and responsive. The bill empowers the Commerce Commission to oversee this regime and provides it with the necessary regulatory tools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe know our water services regime isn\u2019t working as it should be. We know the quality of the service being provided does not reflect what consumers demand. We know there has been systematic, long-term under-investment in water infrastructure. We know that there are inefficient pricing practices and a lack of transparency around the costs of delivering water services. Finally, we know there are mounting concerns about the capability and capacity of the water services sector to respond to increasing Government and community expectations. These new entities will have the size and scale to tackle these issues and attract the $120 to $185 billion needed to address historic under-investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EHowever, the new entities will be natural monopolies in the supply of water services where competition is impractical. There is a risk that they will act inefficiently and seek to capitalise on their market power. This bill provides the independent scrutiny necessary to protect New Zealanders from the sorts of harm that can occur when essential service providers have substantial market power and consumers are unable to switch between them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EConsumers deserve high-quality services that are safe, affordable, and resilient. This bill will ensure that the full benefit of the reforms is realised for New Zealanders. It will drive efficient investment and pricing practices and make the entities accountable for delivering service quality levels that communities expect. In particular, the economic regulation provisions in the bill will require the entities to disclose certain information directly, govern service quality, and set a strong efficiency challenge to drive lower prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is the same sort of regulation used in other essential industries in New Zealand that hold monopoly power, including the international airports in Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch; electricity lines businesses; and natural gas pipeline businesses. Information disclosure regulation will require regulated providers to publicly disclose prescribed information about their performance. The Commerce Commission will undertake a summary and analysis of this information, which will increase transparency and make the entities more accountable to stakeholders. Quality regulation will require regulated providers to meet network service quality standards, while price quality regulation will set both quality standards and maximum allowable revenue or prices that the provider is permitted to recover. The bill provides the commission with the necessary flexibility to use different tools at different times for each of the entities or types of water services. These tools will ensure consumers are receiving water services at appropriate prices and quality standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI do note that in light of the Government\u2019s changes to the affordable water reforms, there have been some implications for the timing of when economic regulation is implemented. The entity servicing Auckland and Northland, which will be established on 1 July 2024, will continue to be subject to economic regulation from 1 July 2027. However, the other nine entities, which will be established over a two-year period ending 1 July 2026, will now be subject to economic regulation from 1 July 2029.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe economic regulation and consumer protection regime established by the bill put in place strong incentives for the entities to provide affordable, quality water services. However, if entities do not comply with these requirements, the commission can take a range of enforcement steps, including pecuniary penalty orders, compensatory orders, and injunctions. The consumer protection safeguards will give consumers a strong voice on how water services are delivered, and it will also hold the entities accountable for delivering on community expectations, including meeting minimum service standards. The commission will be required to set a service quality code by 1 July 2027, and the code will cover standards related to outages, faults, minimum flow or pressure rates, billing practices, customer services, and consumer rights, amongst other things. The bill provides for the scope of the Consumer Advocacy Council to be broadened so it can advocate on behalf of water services consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill establishes a comprehensive, independent consumer dispute resolution service so that consumers can easily escalate complaints they cannot resolve with the entities themselves. The service will provide for the resolution of low value\u2014that\u2019s up to $50,000\u2014consumer disputes in a way that is more accessible and less formal than the courts. Together, these economic regulation and consumer protection safeguards will help ensure New Zealanders are treated fairly and receive quality water services which offer good value for money. I\u2019m confident the Commerce Commission will be able to quickly drive improvements to the water services sector to ensure it is efficient, effective, and responsive. The commission is a high-performing regulator. It has proven experience in regulating a number of markets. The bill equips the commission with a range of regulatory tools to expand its remit to cover the water services sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ETo further reflect the unique nature of the sector, the bill establishes the position of Water Services Commissioner on the commission\u2019s board. The commissioner will be responsible for leading the roles and functions of the commission for the sector and will ensure that the commission\u2019s water services regulatory role is given the focus and prominence that the sector requires. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe bill also complements the wider water services framework by requiring the commission and the responsible Minister to take into account the relevant obligations of the regulated water services providers, including with respect to Te Tiriti, Treaty settlements and Te Mana o te Wai, climate change, housing, and urban development. Finally, in recognition that the commission is at the start of its Te Ao M\u0101ori journey, the bill requires it to build capability and capacity to ensure it can understand these obligations and effectively engage with M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAs I come to a close, I would like to thank the members of this House, and particularly those who participated in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, for their collaborative\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225051dc78fa6042759062203a83b5bbd8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: A great committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296f0bb3419ca4004b946cb0f3cef9dbb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a good committee\u2014and thorough consideration of the bill. Thank you in particular to committee chair Ingrid Leary and the former chair, the Hon Rachel Brooking. I would also like to extend thanks to the submitters on the bill, to Parliamentary Counsel Office staff, the Commerce Commission and its officials, and all officials, who all made a significant contribution to its workability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders deserve to have safe and affordable drinking water, waste-water and stormwater services that meet their expectations now and into the future. The bill will safeguard and enhance these critical water infrastructure services by providing necessary scrutiny of these entities\u2019 operations. It\u2019s a critical part of the affordable water reforms and it will help to ensure that the new system is efficient, effective, and responsive. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00223ff0d2afe04641649968fb7fbc1f0cdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ff0d2afe04641649968fb7fbc1f0cdd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00229ba256f073a3428a8db3a0ad19803f42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ba256f073a3428a8db3a0ad19803f42\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is obviously the final leg of a final piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBefore I start talking about the bill, I just want to put on record just what\u2019s gone on and taken place before with regard to discussion on this bill. By agreement with the whip from Labour and the National Party whip, we agreed to take all clauses as one. We did that mutually. What happened was that after entering into that relationship of good faith, the debate on this thing was closed down after 40 minutes, and it was a breach of utmost bad faith, particularly by the Labour whip. But to have 40-odd minutes\u201445 minutes\u2014debating an extensive bill that has been months and years in the making and to have it curtailed, even though we\u2019d\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229282a7bf7c7540239daa9e55ac283fd3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228afcdfa5337c4c82a4d3eebb98037ee9\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014had some arrangement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7131bb7f16045128f32ceeff9b74c69\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member is actually now questioning the ruling, and the timing is actually not correct. The debate on that particular bill was well over an hour, because we had begun debating it before we went to dinner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c34cd694f724643a440efb27e649145\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, I\u2019m perfectly aware of that. We were at clause 39 out of 146 clauses, and that is not the way\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264bb40246c1642d191553ce27f1917fe\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come back to his speech on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383904c034bf44eab59f5842afa68f72\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, OK. I\u2019m glad I\u2019ve got that on the record. So for listeners listening in, this is a shambles of a bill. This is a shambles of a process. This is going to be the touchpoint for the election that\u2019s coming up. It has been the touchpoint for the last two years, as we\u2019ve rambled through the most convoluted, disorganised process, where we have seen thousands of submitters. I\u2019ve been involved in those, being a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, across all three bills. This is the final component of it. We have just had an avalanche of submitters who fronted up and who are personally outraged at the thought that their assets are going to be stolen from them and that the arrangement here\u2014this so-called miraculous arrangement that\u2019s going to mean that New Zealanders are better off\u2014is just totally fatuous and incorrect and appalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, all of this has hung around because the officials went off and got the Scottish Water regulator to help them formulate that. There was a lot of advice being given around New Zealand, particularly by some of our professionals. There have been big issues around the governance structure, which is very convoluted. There are big issues around the economic assertions made. There\u2019s certainly this claim that the Minister has made in his speech earlier tonight about there being $120 billion to $180 billion of savings, which is just utter tripe, given that most of the expenditure that a water services entity will undertake\u2014whatever it does, most by far, is the greatest portion of that is infrastructure. To get that level of savings would mean that you wouldn\u2019t, perversely, be investing in infrastructure, because that is the key determinant of the cost that these entities will have to incur if they\u2019re going to meet their requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo it is a shambles\u2014a shambles\u2014and this particular piece of legislation is like all of what the Labour Government has done during the course of its term. It\u2019s come out with this massive mallet to smack in to some form of regulation, rather than it being judicious, careful, and thoughtful about what is the nature of the regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe of course accept regulation. It needs to be in place, but it needs to be balanced, it needs to be appropriate, and it needs to provide the right incentives for entities to be able to operate without an overreach of regulation, and that\u2019s where we\u2019ve ended up with this. We\u2019ve had many submitters submitting on it to that effect, and it just goes together with the other two bills that have been ripped through under urgency. This has been ripped through under urgency in the dying days of a Labour Government, and it is a shocking piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI\u2019m glad that National will repeal this three-waters proposal and we\u2019re going to scrap all these mega-entities. We are going to restore council ownership and control. We will set strict rules for water quality and for infrastructure investment, and we will ensure water services are financially sustainable. There are ways of doing that, but, unfortunately, this Labour Government has gone down a path that most New Zealanders do not believe in and do not accept. That\u2019s why even now, when I drove round my electorate last weekend, I\u2019m still seeing anti - three waters signs up in my electorate, because they are absolutely opposed to this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EMembers on the other side know this, and when they lose their job, one of the reasons they will lose their job is this appalling piece of legislation on which they did not get the buy-in of the people, the general public of New Zealand. It is appalling, what has happened, and the aspersions on many of the councils\u2014some have been poorly managed; I accept that. But many of them have done a great job, and it will come home to roost for the Labour Government as to what a dreadful piece of legislation it is that they\u2019re proposing. It won\u2019t take place under National, and I\u2019m glad it won\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5151b957da049be99cb356873b79ef5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5151b957da049be99cb356873b79ef5\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E If I may bring us back to this particular bill. When I was watching the committee stages, I observed, really, a number of questions from Andrew Bayly, the member that\u2019s just resumed his seat, that, on the one hand, inferred there was going to be competition under the structures that would be set up and, therefore, the regulation was heavy-handed, and, on the other hand, suggested that there needed to be much tighter regulation. So it is little wonder to me that I sense Minister Webb\u2019s frustration, sitting in the chair, having to repeat the same answers. I was very pleased when the debate was brought to a close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m surprised that the member didn\u2019t raise, though\u2014the one who\u2019s resumed his seat\u2014is the interplay between clause 45 and section 15. Because it was the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which worked together to ensure the flexibility of the regime, that answered the very questions he was asking, which is how the Commerce Commission would be able to use a phased approach, assume that there would be price-quality regulation, but allow enough flexibility in the legislation to make that price quality happen at the discretion of the Commerce Commission at the right time and based on real baseline data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThat is what is so good about this legislation\u2014that, along with the disputes resolution mechanism, which means that consumers will be able to have ready access to justice and they will be able to be represented by consumer groups as well. It\u2019s a good bill; I commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002253a8747faf8347269d9ba3b89ee3021a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253a8747faf8347269d9ba3b89ee3021a\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think, if I could address a comment by Ingrid Leary, I think the issue that my colleague Andrew Bayly was actually talking about is his frustration because there is actually quite a lot more in the bill that he wanted to speak to, and so did I, and to actually have it closed down seemed a little sudden\u2014especially because it was agreed upon in good faith. Anyway, I\u2019ll move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAs we actually said in earlier parts during the second reading, I think I actually said something along the lines of the fact that National believes in sound economic and commercial regulation, including economic regulation and definitely consumer protection. But we want it for the right water services entity and for local council and the local people to have a say in determining that. And for this water services three waters bill, right from the beginning, it has been an utter disaster. And this bill, the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill, is no different. It is all part of it. As my colleague Andrew Bayly said, this is the last of the bills that we are debating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI think the issue that we have is that when the regulatory impact statement also states that there is a huge transitional uncertainty created because of this reform, over time, the scope and form of the economic regulation is not in the best interests of the water consumers. Throughout the committee stages, I think one of the questions that I asked the Minister was in relation to whether through this regulation, what kind of cheaper or\u2014I mean, we were talking about a better quality framework for the water entity, but does it actually mean that the customers are, in fact, going to get cheaper water? I think his answer was: could I please point him to the specifics in the legislation so he could actually answer it, but I didn\u2019t quite get to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis bill is not a bill that we support. And considering the fact that we will\u2014the National Government will actually repeal and replace the three waters bill, I see no reason why I should waste more time on this particular bill. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd83c65c51c7494e82241e94079e3061\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd83c65c51c7494e82241e94079e3061\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E This is the trilogy of bills that will finally deliver affordable water reform and water infrastructure for New Zealanders. It has been one of the most significant pieces of legislation that this Labour Government has been able to deliver, which will ensure that ratepayers are able to afford the infrastructure that we need for safe drinking water, for improved stormwater, and for our waste-water systems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EThis all started from my electorate of Tukituki, under the Havelock North water crisis. This legislation will ensure we do not have another Havelock North water crisis in New Zealand. That is the reason that I have absolutely supported this bill right from the beginning, and I commend it to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00225babf67b109b4890a60287ad26aebed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225babf67b109b4890a60287ad26aebed9\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT Party has engaged constructively with officials, with the Government, with the water sector, and with councils right through the process of the three waters reform. ACT agrees there\u2019s a problem to solve when it comes to delivering infrastructure in an affordable way to enable land for housing and business to be developed in an affordable way. Because the whole purpose of three waters infrastructure is not so that engineers have some fun stuff to do pouring concrete and laying pipes. I mean, it is a whole lot of fun watching guys drive diggers\u2014and girls; in fact, it doesn\u2019t really matter what gender they are\u2014and build infrastructure. But that\u2019s not why we do it. It\u2019s to deliver social and economic benefits to communities. It\u2019s to deliver land that can be built on for housing or business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, this bill, while it attempts to create an economic regulator to work out what\u2019s the right amount of money to invest in infrastructure, it fails the mark on a number of points. That\u2019s because it gets confused by Labour\u2019s confused and incoherent policy agenda around three waters. Imagine if Labour had said, \u201CWe need to find out what the condition of council\u2019s pipe network is. We\u2019ve heard it\u2019s really bad. There\u2019s drinking water running down the street in Wellington.\u201D In fact, about 30 percent of the drinking water that\u2019s treated and supplied runs down the street and never gets into a home or into a tap or a glass of water. You can go to places like West Auckland where I live\u2014there\u2019s regular waste-water overflows from the waste-water network there\u2014and, of course, North Shore beaches and other places, metros and the regions around New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, if Labour had wanted to find out how bad things were and how much money to spend on the networks, or whether smaller councils actually do need direct financial support or grants or whether, in fact, you could share some of the enormous amount of money that central government collects from building houses in New Zealand. About $2.5 billion a year is collected by the Government; that\u2019s the GST on the invoices that builders send when they build a house\u2014$2.5 billion a year. What ACT says is that a Government should return half of that to local government to build infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo the Government could have said, \u201CWe need to find out more about the problem and we need to provide some revenue from what we take from the building sector. All of that building and housing that imposes costs on local government, we should share some of central government\u2019s revenue back with them.\u201D But they didn\u2019t do that. Instead, they came up with an incredibly complex, unjustified co-governance proposal that\u2019s turned into one of the most divisive political proposals ever laid on New Zealand by an ideological Government that got itself so bent out of shape and tied itself into a pretzel trying to explain the rationale behind co-governance in three waters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d308afb9f74ff280a428d89e7ff85a\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t get salty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dee5995abef640ce9bf670077ff5dad2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: So bent out of shape, the Hon Peeni Henare. I\u2019ll tell you what, because if there was a case for iwi M\u0101ori to have their rights and interests in freshwater assessed by a Government or a court, this Government would have done that. But this Government doesn\u2019t care about property rights. It doesn\u2019t really care whether iwi M\u0101ori, hap\u016B, marae have property rights in water, because if they did they would have said, \u201CHey. Let\u2019s explore that.\u201D But they\u2019re too gutless\u2014they\u2019re way too gutless to have that conversation. Instead, what they did was come up with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d40e5a9db5487d85920d73b59151f7\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: ACT supported the Waikato River settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5df920d15a2426986d96e7c25f12f16\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Peeni Henare raises a good point about the Waikato River: a Treaty settlement identifies rights and interests and allocates them. What this Government has done instead is try to say that water infrastructure, sewerage pipes, drinking water plants, all of that stuff built after 1840 somehow should be subjected to co-governance because there are rights and interests that iwi M\u0101ori have in these assets that are of greater weight than normal or other New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhen I asked the Hon Nanaia Mahuta about that, she replied \u201CNo\u201D. They do not have rights and interests above anyone else, any other ratepayer in their community. In reply to a written question, that is what the Hon Nanaia Mahuta said. At that point the tied up pretzel that Labour had got itself in should have been binned. But no, they persisted with their co-governance agenda. That is one of reasons why Labour will lose the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow I want to come to the member Anna Lorck, who made a comment. Anna Lorck, along with other members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee travelled to Hawke\u2019s Bay and we heard from councils and submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dea9b664ca146799e50145cb3bd235f\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t need to travel; I live there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2d1d54a2b9d42b4959b3bd36eccad5e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member certainly did travel with the Finance and Expenditure Committee, even though it might have been just down the road from her house. What they told Anna Lorck is that \u201CWe reject your co-governance agenda. We reject your centralisation agenda.\u201D The Hawke\u2019s Bay councils, including the regional council, central Hawke\u2019s Bay, Napier, Hastings, what they said, Anna Lorck, was, \u201CWe\u2019ve already solved the problem that the Havelock North inquiry told us that we needed to solve. We formed a voluntary regional alliance where we\u2019re pooling our resources and we\u2019re getting on with the business of funding, financing, and fixing our three waters infrastructure.\u201D That is why they said: \u201CWe don\u2019t need these water reforms, Anna Lorck.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I don\u2019t know what Anna Lorck went back and told her caucus, but, whatever it was, it wasn\u2019t enough to convince the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, the Hon Kieran McAnulty, or whoever the Prime Minister was at the time. Because the same confused pretzel policy appears here in the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. As a result, Anna Lorck and a whole lot of Labour MPs are going to lose their seats in about seven weeks\u2019 time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat would ACT do? Because that\u2019s what New Zealanders want to know. What would an alternative Government have done with three waters? Well, this is what ACT says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf2e6d99f0cc432eb6b2f97a2ff82be8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. The rest of the people might want to know. The House wants to know what is in the bill and everything relates to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0586c75a6b44f9a832ec36db89191a7\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let\u2019s come to the role of the Commerce Commission. The Commerce Commission is going to carry out a discovery process over three to four years to find out what the actual asset condition is of all of these pipes in the ground. Now, imagine that. They could literally ring up the councils and say, \u201CCould you send us your information?\u201D They\u2019d get it the next day. But it\u2019s going to take three or four years. If there are gaps in information, how do you close those gaps? You send out all of the CCTV and jetting trucks to CCTV your pipe networks. In about a year, you could have a complete up-to-date asset management database for all of the three waters infrastructure in New Zealand. It might cost a few tens or even $100 million to do it across the country. You could do that in a year. No. In two to three years, the Commerce Commission is going to faff around and work out how to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, if the Government was serious about working out how much money should be spent on building three waters infrastructure, there\u2019s a test for that. Currently, councils plan where people could live\u2014it\u2019s called spatial planning or urban planning, district planning, regional planning. It shows where the people are going to live and how many are coming. In Auckland where I live, in the north and west another 250,000 people are projected to come and live there between now and 2050. Therefore, we know we need to provide 250,000 peoples\u2019 worth of water infrastructure. Work it back from 2050. I\u2019m a civil engineer. I reckon I could ring up a few firms and ask them to give us a ballpark price. That\u2019s how easy it is to work out how much money should be spent on infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen you say, \u201CHow much to maintain it?\u201D Well, you work out how many trucks, how many people, how many visits they\u2019re going to do a week. You work back from there. No. The Commerce Commission\u2019s going to spend another three years after they get the information. We\u2019re talking nearly 2030. If this Government was serious about fixing three waters infrastructure, they could have gone back to 2020 when they came up with the original concept for the reforms, and they could have issued an instruction to councils: \u201CUpdate your asset management system. If you can\u2019t afford it, come to us, we\u2019ll find a way to pay for it.\u201D If you can\u2019t afford growth to fund growth, guess what? A sensible Government would have taken advice from economists and said, \u201CWe\u2019re prepared to share some of the revenue central government gets from building and construction, just like ACT would have\u201D\u2014$1.2 billion a year to cash flow the borrowing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve heard from Hon Kieran McAnulty: \u201C$1.2 billion, that\u2019s not enough. This is an infrastructure deficit of $120 billion.\u201D Well, guess what, Labour; guess what? $1.2 billion a year, leveraged at the same rate as this reform would allow for, somewhere between four and six times revenue delivers you somewhere between four and six times $1.2 billion. Somewhere around $6 billion or $7 billion a year in additional borrowing if local government had access to the revenue that ACT says they should keep. All of these problems are able to be solved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd that\u2019s before we get to telling a Commerce Commission that they need to somehow work out whether a water service entity is upholding the Treaty of Waitangi, enforcing tikanga, and somehow working out whether they are spending enough money and time on guaranteeing that the spiritual life force or mauri of the water is sufficient. ACT will repeal this legislation, the rest of the three waters reforms, and replace it with our own. It\u2019s on our website: ACT.org.nz.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00229269effb8c6e4ef286b7ce1f567f33ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229269effb8c6e4ef286b7ce1f567f33ba\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Thank you. Pleased to take a call on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. This is the last in four major bills making major changes to drinking water, waste water, and stormwater. Though the Green Party has opposed some of those bills, I do acknowledge the huge amount of work which Minister Nanaia Mahuta and then Kieran McAnulty and officials have put into this big tranche of legislation which creates substantial change in the way our drinking water, waste water, and stormwater is to be managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Simon Court, did not mention anything in this bill. This bill is important because the big thrust of the reforms is to move to these 10 entities. They are natural monopolies. Councils have a very limited ability to influence the entities\u2019 performance, the way they carry out their responsibilities, or require any changes to the entities\u2019 operational documents\u2014things like their asset management plan, their funding and pricing plan, their infrastructure strategy. And given that you\u2019ve got limited ability of councils to influence a natural monopoly delivering an essential service, there needs to be economic regulation and consumer protection, particularly as they\u2019re not\u2014well, they are publicly owned; they\u2019re not directly accountable to shareholders, and they\u2019re not operating in a market and they don\u2019t have to pay a dividend to their shareholders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut I was a bit puzzled by National\u2019s contribution because Mr Bayly was talking about competition in the committee of the whole House, as if more competition would be desirable. So that makes me question what National\u2019s changes would be to the water services regime and whether they are really interested in privatisation and will take this corporate structure and then privatise it. So we do need economic regulation so that the services that the entities deliver to consumers are cost-effective, and that we have transparency and accountability in the way they deliver those services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo the bill is intended to ensure that the objectives of the reform are delivered: increasing infrastructure investment and ensuring that the pricing practices for those services are efficient. So the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019s view, as the department advising the Finance and Expenditure Committee, was that this bill would promote the long-term benefit of consumers. There was also a note that there is, of course, a trade-off between regulation, the cost of implementing that regulation and its benefits. This will cost about $10 million, we were told, over two years to develop the information base on which any regulations would be based, and then cost $7 million to $10 million annually to implement. And recognising, too, there\u2019s quite a lot of flexibility in what the Commerce Commission can do, because the entities are differently sized, have different circumstances, so the bill does provide for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt enables the commission to issue guidance, input methodologies, and determinations around how the water services entities would implement the charging principles and any regulations made under the Water Services Legislation Act now. It is similar in terms of the way the Commerce Commission regulates fibre, gas, telcos, and it does have this provision for a specialist Water Services Commissioner and also for a dispute resolution tribunal for any disputes around pricing, for example, between consumers and the entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s not the job of the Commerce Commission to regulate drinking-water quality\u2014that\u2019s the job of Taumata Arowai\u2014but the two entities will work together. We do need this consumer protection and we need an economic regulator of the entities, so the Green Party is supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b02828519996441ebb34f1d5a630a58b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b02828519996441ebb34f1d5a630a58b\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We know that our water services sector is not performing as well as it should be. We know that the quality of service being provided does not reflect what consumers demand and we know that there has been systemic long-term under-investment in our water infrastructure and we have seen the effects of that at a local level. So this bill introduces an economic regulation and consumer protection regime, which will ensure the entities promote the long-term interests of consumers by providing services that are efficient, effective, and responsive. So I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022bccb40e0c6b94b9988091771facd6c96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bccb40e0c6b94b9988091771facd6c96\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Five-minute call\u2014Chris Penk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002281a1c3f19f8f4bdfb943fb38777ee6de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281a1c3f19f8f4bdfb943fb38777ee6de\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Speaker. I can assure you, it won\u2019t be all of five minutes. It\u2019s standard to get up and say it\u2019s a pleasure to speak on a certain bill, but it\u2019s not really a pleasure to speak on this one. I\u2019ve heard so many other people speaking on it that I don\u2019t think I can improve much on the contributions, at least the ones from this party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe politicians have had a lot to say on three waters and various bits of legislation associated with that. The people will get their say on it soon enough. While I don\u2019t pretend that the whole thrust of the general election is a referendum on three waters, it does nevertheless go to some of the themes that will decide how the country wants to be taken forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn relation to this space, we say that local control of these assets is still an important value. We think that scrutiny is important. Of course, the thrust of this bill, by its own telling is to provide independent commercial scrutiny, and, of course, that\u2019s the purpose of appointing the Commerce Commission as the regulator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut we say that other forms of scrutiny are important as well, not only in terms of the election coming up but scrutiny through local government and responsible and accountable government\u2014accountable to the ratepayers, of course, who own the assets\u2014are important values. We think that scrutiny is a more important type. We say that the purpose of this is merely to try to give effect to that which the Government has set up. So it talks about a natural monopoly\u2014well, it\u2019s created a particular form of monopoly. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s very efficient. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s very accountable. What can be done can also be undone; we intend to do that if we should be so lucky as to win the election. I do not commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u00228d52e08088e74213964038eaa224052c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d52e08088e74213964038eaa224052c\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to rise and speak on this third reading of this bill. Basically, what we\u2019ve heard already is that this bill is part of a suite of legislative reforms that are very necessary in terms of providing the water infrastructure that we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI just want to congratulate all of the Ministers and the officials that have been involved in getting it to this point, because once we\u2019ve passed this bill, what we\u2019re going to be seeing is a much greater likelihood of having affordable drinking water, affordable waste water and stormwater, and making sure that that\u2019s available to consumers and communities right across the country. And what this bill does is it adds some extra things in terms of making sure that we\u2019ve got greater service quality and we\u2019ve also got consumer rights protections for New Zealanders. So on that note, I am happy to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002281efd6370a0a4167bf384161fb200389\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281efd6370a0a4167bf384161fb200389\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a short call in support of this bill, the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. As we\u2019ve heard from many speakers on this side of the House, it will establish the economic regulator and also protect consumers in terms of much-needed water services, as part of the reforms with the oversight of the Commerce Commission. This bill will deliver improvements for New Zealanders in terms of having tighter regulation. It will be the best option for New Zealanders because our local councils cannot afford the under-investment of water infrastructure. On that note, I would like to finally finish by thanking the Finance and Expenditure Committee members for their work, and also the officials and the submitters. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001059\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2535ab955344a08985f771541c86954\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2535ab955344a08985f771541c86954\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022319765a6e4bb4f56a158b060f4cc20a3\u0022\u003ETaxation Principles Reporting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4157c4ffd3b47e39d3193dc43bc8200\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7074ce1b6c2462da2d6a34c98f5f528\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002243bb4d2ed8fe496baedaf9d7ae612483\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243bb4d2ed8fe496baedaf9d7ae612483\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 10, \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D, and Schedules 1 and 2. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b32898da386a45ef926e4896d0bd531e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b32898da386a45ef926e4896d0bd531e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I thought the Minister might be standing up, but no. Look, this is a fascinating bill put forward by the Hon Mr Parker\u2014David Parker\u2014renowned in tax circles for having some extreme views around tax. Of course, he spat the dummy recently, I think, principally around the GST on food\u2014which is a pretty idiotic policy. But he was the main proponent of this. This is his coup de grace, I think, before he leaves this Parliament on this term. Hopefully we see David Parker next term, because I do enjoy him. Even though I don\u2019t share his views, I do have respect for him. At least he has a position on stuff, even if it\u2019s way off in the yonder and most people are not knowing where he is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut anyway, I think even Labour wonder where he is sometimes with his views on tax. My understanding is they let him, when he had the revenue portfolio, go off and do his little stuff as long as he didn\u2019t make too much trouble. Obviously, he made a bit of trouble around the GST on fruit and veges, because he didn\u2019t accept it and that\u2019s when he left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAnyway, this bill is a pretty weird bill. Very short. Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. Its purpose is to oblige the commissioner to report on New Zealand\u2019s current tax settings. Why that is required is a moot point. Only because David Parker thought that it should\u2014I\u2019m not sure anyone else had that view. In all of my discussions with tax officials, tax accounting firms, whatever, no one said to me, \u201CYou know what, Andrew? We\u2019ve got to do this Taxation Principles Reporting Bill because it is such a pressing thing for New Zealand.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022763c6a49feca4fa1b1d2f5e8e399725f\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Aw, look up there! [Points to television]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282578ad8e0f34c649555570606dc989b\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Anna Lorck, she\u2019s there. She thinks it would be good. So this is one of these bills that you just wonder why the Cabinet\u2019s shoving it through in urgency now that the Minister\u2019s moved on. I pity Dr Deborah Russell, who\u2019s now in the chair\u2014although she\u2019s a tax expert, I understand. She\u2019ll be loving this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a requirement for the commission to report on it. So there\u2019s no need\u2014maybe the Minister can start out by, first of all, explaining why in the dickens does New Zealand need this? By the way, the reporting framework\u2019s quite significant. It\u2019s an annual reporting framework, and then a much more comprehensive one every three years. So why might we have it at least annually? Because tax policy doesn\u2019t move that fast. It\u2019s glacial, it\u2019s glacial. It\u2019s a bit like some of those members\u2014glacial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo why do you have to do this every year, and what is the difference between what would be reported in the two years when it\u2019s just a bit of a report\u2014apparently. I don\u2019t understand it\u2014and what\u2019s the comprehensive; what would be examples? So, hopefully, let\u2019s see if the Minister can start with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00223c5813dc9ff9408a8299c1ac2ef1333d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c5813dc9ff9408a8299c1ac2ef1333d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy not to debate it because it\u2019s such a sensible bill. Just a few words, of course, introducing this committee stage in the first instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAs Mr Andrew Bayly has said, this is a bill about reporting on the tax system, so it introduces no new taxes, it doesn\u2019t impose any taxes, it doesn\u2019t adjust any taxes. But what it does do is it requires the commissioner to report on the New Zealand tax setting against a series of principles\u2014recently very well-established principles\u2014by which tax systems should be assessed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, Mr Bayly did say, \u201CWhat need is there for this report and why should we do this report? Is it worth doing?\u201D I think the answer, straightforwardly, is yes. There is a great deal of information available in a lot of places, about our tax system. It can be dug up through, obviously, the various pieces of legislation. The annual report from IRD every year has a great deal of information about how our tax system is operating, from things like how quickly calls are answered to issues with compliance and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut you can also dig up more information about the tax system in the Budget every year. For example, you can get to the taxation expenditures report, which tells you where there are exceptions to the tax system; where there are special concessions. But in no place do we find, really, anywhere, a report on the tax system itself in an easily accessible form. This is what this report will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat it will do is give New Zealanders a series of facts about the tax system\u2014a series of facts so that when people try to comment on tax, when we\u2019ve got commentary going on tax, and not just from tax experts\u2014you see, people get quite scared of a tax and they do get worried about talking about it except in the most simple terms. But because it is a complicated subject, one of the things this report will do is ensure that everyone\u2014ordinary people; people who don\u2019t know much about tax\u2014can actually have access to some really good information about our tax system as a basis for discussing it. So in terms of that, this is what this bill does. It pools that information together in one place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EMr Bayly wanted to know why we had to report on it every year in the bill. In actual fact, the provisions are that most years there is an interim report, which uses the best information available for that tax year to report on the tax system. But every three years, there is a rather more comprehensive report. So that will enable people to make some pretty good judgments about the tax system instead of just having a whole lot of ready reckons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7f39434c26b45a0acc8e0ca9c3e7e8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7f39434c26b45a0acc8e0ca9c3e7e8f\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3aad21ef3bd4c11ae32b431f3158e42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3aad21ef3bd4c11ae32b431f3158e42\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there an objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac3fca4af189421390a2e60b86525815\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2d282655a6d42f6993c002f300498f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2d282655a6d42f6993c002f300498f6\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. That was a good contribution from the Associate Minister of Revenue. It didn\u2019t quite answer the question as to who called for this. As I said before, I\u2019m not aware of anyone who got the old megaphone out there saying, \u201CWe just need to have this information.\u201D So that was one point. The second thing, when she said, you know, \u201CPeople get scared about tax.\u201D, well, I understand why they get scared about tax. As soon as a Labour Minister stands up and talks about tax, they\u2019re now going to get taxed more, because this is what they\u2019ve done. They\u2019ve taxed businesses more. They\u2019ve taxed people more. They\u2019ve taxed everyone more. No wonder everyone\u2019s sphincters start to move when the Labour Associate Revenue Minister starts talking about tax. Anyway, I\u2019ll come back to the topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed2689fe86b473db09c93aa7ee0f367\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m a little bit worried about your sphincter, actually, Mr Bayly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6ed3b21ba854991b6dec19377595a67\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Anyway\u2014we shouldn\u2019t go there, Mr Chair. Anyway, the other interesting comment the Minister made was that these are well-known principles. Well, I\u2019ve just got to remind the Minister that these are introducing new principles. Interestingly, when we talk about tax, most people refer back to that well-known person Adam Smith in 1776, when he wrote that famous book The Wealth of Nations. I\u2019m sure the Minister\u2019s read it\u2014I\u2019m sure she has; she\u2019s got that look about her. It sets out four principles\u2014and I know she\u2019s very knowledgeable on tax. The four principles are equity and fairness, certainty, convenience of payment, and effective tax administration. That was written back in 1776, a long period of time ago. We have subsequently had successive tax inquiries\u2014some initiated by Labour by the way. We\u2019ve had the 1982 McCaw review. We\u2019ve had the 2001 McLeod review. We\u2019ve had the more recent 2019 report of the Tax Working Group. In Australia, the 2010 Henry tax review. In the UK, the Mirrlees report 2011. They have all endorsed the same principles, based on the same core values of New Zealand around all those four principles. This bill actually introduced some more. So when the Minister makes that claim, first of all, I\u2019ve got to say I\u2019ll refute that claim. So I\u2019d just like her to explain why she thinks we are ending up in the same concepts and why this is such a great thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00229c2ba012ac6c4b28b04665fc55b99701\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c2ba012ac6c4b28b04665fc55b99701\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I think, if I understood the gist of Mr Bayly\u2019s question\u2014it was a little hard to tell\u2014but he wanted to know why there were some principles other than, Mr Bayly, Adam Smith\u2019s tax principles. [Holds up book] I\u2019m happy to lend it to you, if you like. But some additional ones in addition to Adam Smith. I\u2019m just going to direct Mr Bayly to the 2010 Victoria University\u2019s Tax Working Group. Of course, that particular tax working group was set up by the former National Party, a National Government. As well as having the principles from Adam Smith\u2019s The Wealth of Nations in that particular working group, they also looked at revenue, integrity, compliance, administration cost, and, of course, coherence. So these are not just new principles that have been introduced by us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe look at the principles that are listed in Schedule 1 of the bill. They are horizontal equity, efficiency, vertical equity, compliance and administrative costs, and uncertainty and predictability. Those come to us from Adam Smith and they\u2019ve been endorsed for a long time and\u2014I was going to say discussed\u2014reinvestigated; there\u2019s a whole lot of literature. So we\u2019re not reaching back to Adam Smith and Adam Smith only. Tax research and contemporary tax research endorses those principles of Adam Smith. But if we do look at the ones that are new, there\u2019s revenue integrity, which is ensuring that the tax system is sustainable over time. Now, that\u2019s in the 2010 Victoria University Tax Working Group, so that\u2019s where that one comes from, Mr Bayly, as well as from other research. But if you\u2019re looking for a source relevant to us, that would do the trick quite nicely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe other one that is comparatively new\u2014as in it wasn\u2019t in Adam Smith\u2014is flexibility and adaptability. That\u2019s quite an interesting one. We found in recent years of course, that our tax system was set up to deal with brick and mortar systems and trade systems where trade didn\u2019t happen in an instant over the internet. Our contemporary systems don\u2019t deal especially well with new forms of commerce. So one of the things we need to start looking at our tax system with and judging it by is just how well it does adapt to or accommodate or can be adapted to meet these new forms of commerce. So I think that flexibility and adaptability came to us\u2014oh, I\u2019m not sure, but it seems pretty sensible to me. So there you are, Mr Bayly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022542de8880e8f464f9b171181e0bffbe2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022542de8880e8f464f9b171181e0bffbe2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before you start, Mr Bayly, just for clarity for those at home: the question is that Parts 1 and 2, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022e814d5a0e5f54fbfa19dffdcfc405623\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e814d5a0e5f54fbfa19dffdcfc405623\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m so grateful for the Minister\u2019s help elaborating on that. I would remind her that the third of Adam Smith\u2019s principles actually talks about convenience and payments, and therefore does provide for the flexibility of moving to different systems. So I thank her, but I just draw her attention to it because I know she\u2019s very interested in those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe one thing about the principles that are set out: first of all, I find it slightly arrogant that the Labour Party and Mr Parker, in general, is the one who has decided\u2014and he did, except when I asked him the question directly in select committee\u2014that he had a role in actually drafting these principles, even though there have been a number of very substantial tax reviews that have accepted the four principles of tax, and there\u2019s clarity around that since Adam Smith\u2019s time back in 1776 right through to now; it has been the hallmark of a tax principle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut, hey, we\u2019ve got a Labour Government who wants to make some changes. So let\u2019s get into a little bit of specific stuff about it. The first thing is the disaggregation of what\u2019s meant by \u201Cequity\u201D, and we\u2019ve got the issue of vertical equity and horizontal equity, and I assume\u2014and I\u2019m pretty certain that Mr Parker actually drafted some of this. There is the one issue that talks about vertical equity, about the need to be progressive\u2014tax is progressive if people with higher levels of economic income pay a higher proportion of their income in income tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, the first question is there\u2019s been a major, major shift in the language that\u2019s been adopted and incorporated in this bill. Normally, when you talk about tax\u2014and even the Minister will know this from her background\u2014you talk about tax in terms of accessible income. This bill introduced an entirely new concept called \u201Ceconomic income\u201D. If I look at the definition of economic income, \u201CEconomic income is the way for [entities] to account for changes in the value of a given asset in the market. It generally recognises unrealised gains, in addition to recognising realised gains. A change in market value rather than cash received is the perfect example of an economic income.\u201D This bill nicely slipped through because no one monitors tax, no one thinks about tax. Unfortunately, not enough people are interested in tax and the only time they think about it, as the Minister said\u2014they get scared they\u2019re going to get taxed more. The pernicious nature of this bill is it introduces a whole new concept around unrealised capital gains. And that is one of the key issues around this bill that the Labour Government has tried to slip through in the dying days of its governance arrangements. I\u2019d like the Minister to confirm whether she accepts \u201Ceconomic income\u201D includes, by definition, unrealised capital gains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022e88d41c084764a5a86bddb91688bd947\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e88d41c084764a5a86bddb91688bd947\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E A couple of things: Mr Bayly has claimed that the principle of Adam Smith\u2019s of certainty will in fact encompass the idea of flexibility and adaptability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229edfc968b27e438e8e10ae5f3b72e0c9\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: No, convenience of payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d317922e00a4801b1b275acc59a1cfc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019m sorry, convenience of payment would\u2014OK, so I\u2019m just going to, having Adam Smith right in front of me\u2014I don\u2019t think that\u2019s actually going to manage that at all in terms of flexibility and adaptability. So you levy taxes at the time at which it\u2019s most convenient for the taxpayer, that\u2019s in the way it\u2019s most convenient for the taxpayer. Classic example of this in our system is PAYE which is, you know, very, very convenient and easily paid by the taxpayer\u2014that is, as employees\u2014because it\u2019s deducted at source. So that\u2019s a classic example of convenience. I don\u2019t see how that encompasses the ways that we need to start to think about the new forms of business, the new forms of commerce, and particularly the forms of commerce which are not conducted with bricks and mortar stores any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn terms of that flexibility and adaptability, it\u2019s not just to do with taxpayers finding it convenient to pay their taxes; it\u2019s also to do with Governments being able to levy taxes on forms of business which otherwise escape taxation. So there\u2019s a whole set of things that need to be balanced off there by Governments. It\u2019s also about changing our tax systems. So, of course, all these principles work together. One of the principles we have sitting in there is revenue integrity, and, in fact, one of the purposes of a tax system is to collect sufficient tax revenue that Government can pay for all the things that Governments typically like to pay for: health, welfare, education, and so on. As new forms of business arise, new forms of commerce arise, they may not be encompassed by the tax law we already have\u2014that\u2019s the sort of flexibility and adaptability we need. So that principle of convenience is not just about\u2014it is about taxpayer convenience, but flexibility and adaptability concerns both taxpayers, but also the entities levying the taxation. So that\u2019s why we have a separate principle of flexibility and adaptability. It is not comprehended by the principle of convenience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EMr Bayly\u2014I think I actually need Mr Bayly to clarify a little. He said that when we\u2019re talking about vertical equity, we normally talk about assessable income, but, actually, I think there is a distinction in tax law, it\u2019s very clear, between assessable income and taxable income. Taxable income is the final amount on which you pay your taxes. A whole lot of income is assessable income, but you deduct a whole lot of stuff from that before you get to taxable income. Now, I know Mr Bayly knows that; I think he just used assessable income instead of taxable income. But the real thing we\u2019re worried about there is the difference between taxable income and economic income, and it\u2019s a critical and important distinction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe fact is that our tax system in New Zealand is not broad base, low rate, because a whole lot of income is excluded from taxation. Now, that may or may not be appropriate\u2014it may or may not be appropriate. But at the moment\u2014except for the major report which Hon David Parker and Inland Revenue carried out to assess how much income very high-wealth people earn\u2014we don\u2019t know how much income New Zealanders earn because of income that is not included in taxable income. Now, whether or not we ought to be paying tax on that is a different matter. This bill does not have an \u201Cought to pay more tax\u201D in it. All it will do is report on that level of economic income and the level of tax paid in relation to that economic income. It will report on that and then it is up to the people involved who are interested in the issue\u2014journalists, members of Parliament, taxation lecturers, people in the street, ordinary New Zealanders\u2014to debate whether or not that\u2019s appropriate. This bill would not give any judgment about whether it\u2019s appropriate; all it would do is report the facts. That\u2019s why we\u2019re looking at economic income, not just taxable income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae9129f1e3334d258665819a5700f3a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae9129f1e3334d258665819a5700f3a3\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you. I beg to differ about convenience because convenience can be an online\u2014it doesn\u2019t mean\u2014I don\u2019t know why she keeps talking about bricks and mortar. It\u2019s about the way that taxes can be paid and it could be online, it could be any other business model\u2014seemed a spurious argument to me on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut I just want to draw back to this vertical equity because you made the assertion it\u2019s just, you know, passive reporting. Well, actually, that\u2019s not what the description says. The description says the \u201Cprogressive tax system does not mean that every tax should be progressive, but the overall system ought to be. In practice, wealthy people should at the very least pay no lower a rate of tax on their economic income than middle-income New Zealanders already do.\u201D So, do I take it from her comments that the purpose of this particular section of the bill is that the tax department will be going about assessing everyone\u2019s\u2014and obviously the Labour Government went after certain families\u2014she\u2019d like to see this bill and the annual reporting be specific about both, using her terms, \u201Ctaxable income\u201D, and also unrealised and realised gains is a separate part to that? Is that what she\u2019s saying very explicitly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022878b830d889a4a98835d681273f89991\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022878b830d889a4a98835d681273f89991\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E No. Just to clarify, the IRD would be using information that is already available to it. So there won\u2019t be an order to\u2014and there are a variety of ways of gathering that information they have, so in fact on that they won\u2019t be going out and trying to assess every single individual\u2019s economic income. Instead, in the way that they already do, and that other entities and people can do, is use the whole suite of data that is available to develop measures, to develop an understanding of all sorts of types of income and tax paid and so on. So that information is already available. It\u2019s just a matter of pulling it together in the reports. And it\u2019s worth noting that, you know, that sort of reporting might actually only come through in the comprehensive triennial report. We\u2019ll see how that develops over time. The idea is just to make sure that we do get that better information about our tax system every three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224c08da3a807542898f9c88e209588e93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c08da3a807542898f9c88e209588e93\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E So I just want to ask a very simple, specific question: will this bill require the IRD to go out and make an assessment of the unrealised gains, and that individuals or corporations or trusts will be required to pay tax on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00226273e7f175b44e34b1ee004bee5b5f43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226273e7f175b44e34b1ee004bee5b5f43\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E On an individual basis, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00220a0fa5dba0e94246bdb1e016d86f409b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a0fa5dba0e94246bdb1e016d86f409b\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Not on an individual basis, for a company, individual, trust\u2014whatever. What would be the\u2014if that\u2019s the answer, no, and she\u2019s saying it\u2019s going to happen at a more global level, how does that take place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022551e3d448c1a484dba17e83e196d514a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022551e3d448c1a484dba17e83e196d514a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Inland Revenue will develop those systems over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00221e89fe0495a949d7a905088c9c730a42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e89fe0495a949d7a905088c9c730a42\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E OK. So we\u2019re sounding like very much a politician here. Mr Parker\u2019s sitting over there; hopefully he might join in the debate. It was a very specific question. The term \u201Ceconomic income\u201D has been injected into this bill quite specifically. It has a very specific definition which includes unrealised gains, and so the point I\u2019m making: if you are going to put it in, stand by it and be clear about it, because New Zealanders need to know what would be required by the IRD to do it. You\u2019re talking about using other methods of collecting that information; I didn\u2019t ask about that. I\u2019m asking about what will the IRD report on, annually, in terms of both \u201Ctaxable income\u201D, using her term, and \u201Cunrealised gains\u201D as per that definition I talked about before?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00226589ec048a2a407eb9bda98d273b8054\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226589ec048a2a407eb9bda98d273b8054\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve said, Inland Revenue will be reporting on economic income and that\u2019s gathered from a variety of sources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002266ac7e4189c844a19e31e9300b8cd67c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266ac7e4189c844a19e31e9300b8cd67c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Does that include unrealised gains? So, again, I\u2019m going to be very specific, does that include unrealised gains?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00222c8c18674b8942a08a9c95e4b0924c7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c8c18674b8942a08a9c95e4b0924c7c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Bayly, I believe you answered that question yourself already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022d715805be4c4459ca32656094b3561b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d715805be4c4459ca32656094b3561b3\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I take it, and I\u2019m just looking around here, I think that\u2019s got to be a confirmation. If I\u2019m making a wrong assertion, because I\u2019d hate to incorrectly interpret the comments from the Minister, but my assertion, my understanding of what she said is that the IRD will be required to go out and assess both taxable income and unrealised gains and look at that in this respect of vertical equity and, at the same time, the same term is used in terms of horizontal equity. This is why it\u2019s such an important aspect to be clear about. So is that proposition\u2014that premise I\u2019ve just said, is that correct, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00220afef9e2a1244e09a6171465aa34c617\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220afef9e2a1244e09a6171465aa34c617\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Bayly, I\u2019ve lost track of the propositions and premises that you\u2019ve suggested. It\u2019s clear that economic income does include unrealised gains. That\u2019s always been the case with economic income. As I\u2019ve already said, all this bill will do is report on it so that ordinary New Zealanders can actually have a conversation about tax. So the bill doesn\u2019t introduce any new taxes; it doesn\u2019t impose any new taxes, it doesn\u2019t require any new taxes, it doesn\u2019t require unrealised gains to be taxed. All it does is report on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cef8ef34dff948869b2a40dc70cd0f7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cef8ef34dff948869b2a40dc70cd0f7d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bayly, I\u2019m following this debate and I\u2019m not quite sure whether we can go much further without repetition here. We are hearing this one part and I\u2019ll be very generous, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00227c6bcf5e3f804bf5b641513ed0612fa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c6bcf5e3f804bf5b641513ed0612fa3\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, I\u2019ve got acknowledge, I\u2019m going to thank the Minister for being clear that she\u2019s now explicit that it does include unrealised capital gains. So hopefully the Minister can give me a more substantive question: when she talked about using different mechanisms to determine unrealised capital gains as well as taxable income\u2014which is very obvious because the IRD has that information\u2014how will it go about assessing unrealised capital gains? And she\u2019s saying there are other mechanisms to do that; could she be clear about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022105d121253794fa28d23c1b689799a53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022105d121253794fa28d23c1b689799a53\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very detailed question. Inland Revenue will not be assessing individual taxpayers in order to assess this report, they will be using information which is readily available to them already, for their reporting. They will simply be reporting tax paid against economic income, and against income, all the sorts of information they already have. But in terms of then assessing the tax system and so on, which is what this bill will enable\u2014because it will enable reporting on the tax system\u2014they will simply be using the information that is already available to them. In fact, they are going to use very specific measures, they\u2019re sort of sitting there in clause 13 of the bill, saying \u201Cincome distribution and income tax paid\u201D so they\u2019ll look at that. They\u2019ll have these sorts of measures available, and those measures will then be used to assess how well the tax system\u2014they\u2019ll be used to report against those key principles. So that\u2019s just exactly what\u2019s going to happen, and the bill is simply going to report on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220ac365bbda0d401a9c930dccd68020aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ac365bbda0d401a9c930dccd68020aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 414 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f333a6162f5245979d912c1c82b2da54\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227e79834a7de34373a3c1e45640f1310a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 and 2, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001115\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001116\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022407fbbd866c54aaa96709597c2f8636d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022407fbbd866c54aaa96709597c2f8636d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022172faf41426a43828e9839e3032e08c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022172faf41426a43828e9839e3032e08c9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2eb2152137640bd950e663138a06fb5\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab9078bfd5364bf7ab1148a1cc9b22bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab9078bfd5364bf7ab1148a1cc9b22bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cf3dc2ad58047ada060d4cb9c407315\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228739cfa06cac457ab6d0185f84a87e8a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, honourable members\u2014well, probably, honourable member Andrew Bayly\u2014I thank you for the debate on this bill. The views expressed are important because the tax system is important to New Zealand. So, just for the sake of clarity, I want to provide you with a very brief recap on the measures in this bill and their objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe bill imposes a reporting obligation on Inland Revenue. The bill recognises that all New Zealanders are equal stakeholders in the tax system, and, as such, Inland Revenue would report to the public on a range of tax system measures against a set of agreed tax principles. These reports will set out facts about the tax system that are relevant to the tax principles so that ordinary people can be informed\u2014not just about call wait times and other administrative matters but about the distribution of tax paid and levels of compliance. The tax principles that will be reported against represent decades\u2014actually, centuries\u2014of experience in considering what are the good features of a tax system. They are crucial hallmarks of a good tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe reporting framework will make a great deal more information about the operation of the tax system available to the public, and will, thus, contribute to an improved understanding of tax policy among the general public. The requirement for regular reporting will allow for observation of trends and provide insights into how the tax system is developing and responding to external challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo the bill proposes that IRD reports annually, with a more comprehensive report produced every three years. These reports will be made available to the public, perhaps on the department\u2019s website or\u2014in terms of the comprehensive report, it may be presented to this House. This reporting, based on core tax principles, will supplement other statutory reporting on the administration of the tax system and the Government\u2019s revenue strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, this bill is for the benefit of ordinary taxpayers, ordinary citizens. On behalf of New Zealanders and the Government, I want to thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their work on the bill and for their valuable recommendations. I also wish to thank the policy officials and drafters for their work in helping to bring this bill to its third reading, especially Adrian Kelly, Murray Shadbolt, and Josh Fowler; their work is very much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, this bill owes its genesis to the insight of the Hon David Parker, and it is an honour to bring it to this third and final reading, and know that he started this process. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5a986b58f8e499293a5128b1d03753a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5a986b58f8e499293a5128b1d03753a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00225ca8b6c720c74efba5c22ca355e3f0d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ca8b6c720c74efba5c22ca355e3f0d0\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, another dying act of a dying Government in the final days\u2014a new bill. What a great day we\u2019ve had. Basically, we\u2019ve rammed through two water services bills and now we\u2019re ramming through this Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. Hey, we\u2019ve only got three more days left\u2014or four maybe, if you count the last day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe first question is: why are we doing this? Why are we doing this? No one\u2019s asked for this tax bill. It has come about through the good work and the enthusiasm of the Hon David Parker sitting over there. He had these wonderful ideas when he was Minister of Revenue, until very recently. I was very disappointed to hear that he had relinquished his post because he had a deep departure over that goods and services tax on fruit and vegetables. I understand why he did that\u2014man of principle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut talking about principle, I know the genesis of this taxation principles bill was that he is a student of this man called Thomas Piketty who, of course, wrote Capital in the Twenty-First Century, published in 2013. Was that the one you were relying on, Mr Parker? I\u2019m looking over there. I\u2019m pretty certain it was. You know, the whole premise of his work is that the return on capital\u2014and he kept talking about return on capital\u2014if it\u2019s greater than economic growth, that leads to inequity. That\u2019s the prime proposition of Mr Piketty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo it was an important work. In fact, and I mentioned this in my first speech on this bill, the Washington Post did a review of this piece of work. It said, when it was published, that \u201CPiketty\u2019s work was a landmark\u201D\u2014sorry, I\u2019m just going to do a little bit of a quote here\u2014\u201Cin economic literature that significantly improved and expanded upon Karl Marx\u2019s ground-breaking scholarship in Das Kapital.\u201D So here we are. Mr Piketty is going to help New Zealand, even though we don\u2019t have communism. Let\u2019s hope even Mr Parker doesn\u2019t want communism\u2014maybe socialism, but not communism in New Zealand. That is what has driven this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EHe did accept, when I spoke to him in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, that he actually had a hand in writing some of this. Again, I\u2019ve got to say, I compliment the Minister. There aren\u2019t many Ministers that sit down at the typewriter probably at about 10:30 at night when everyone else has gone home, sit down and start writing about vertical equity and horizontal equity, because he knows that that is the most important thing for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo what this bill does is it changes the way that the key principles have overseen the tax system across many jurisdictions. I talked about it earlier, about Adam Smith\u2019s 1776 book which became a hallmark, a fundamental plank to how tax systems were set up in countries. There were four elements. The first one is equity and fairness, the second one is certainty, the third one is convenience of payment, and the fourth one is effective tax administration. Subsequent reviews in New Zealand\u2014some commissioned by National, some commissioned by Labour\u2014have all reinforced those four principles because they are simple, but hey, that\u2019s not good enough for our good man Mr Parker, who came up with these additional ones and then, more importantly, more significantly, introduced a new term called \u201Ceconomic income\u201D. As I said before, economic income, by definition, is the way that entities account for changes in the value of a given asset in the market. It generally recognises unrealised gains in addition to recognising realised profits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand has a system. It\u2019s all about taxable income made up of accessible income and deductible expenditure. What we\u2019ve now introduced in this tax reporting bill\u2014IRD will have to sit down once a year and write a report saying that we want not only to talk about whether our system is capturing those key things and how it\u2019s going about that, but also now moves it into the area of unrealized gains. Of course, that is what the Labour Government has been pushing now, the last election, probably the election before that, and it certainly will in this election. The issue that they want to impose: a capital gains tax in New Zealand. This is a quiet, surreptitious way of introducing it into the system of the IRD to make sure it\u2019s reporting on this very issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, tax policy is the responsibility of the Government of the time. The current Government, the Labour Government, has chosen to take itself down a certain tax path and that is what it does, and we respect that as the Government. If we are lucky enough to be elected in October, we will choose to go down a different path, which is we want to make sure that more people keep more of their money in their back pocket, and that is simply what people choose to support when they come to election time. That is called democracy. This is something that is trying to embed in the system something that the Labour Government wants to make sure is continuously captured around unrealised capital gains, or, in other words, a capital gains tax. We do not accept it. National does not accept it. We do not believe this bill is necessary. We will repeal it. It\u2019s a waste of time. But anyway, the Labour Government\u2019s going to ram it through tonight anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002213a54bfab50c4b4fba1ec68d061645f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213a54bfab50c4b4fba1ec68d061645f9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E As the Minister, the Hon Deborah Russell has said, this is only about a reporting framework. It\u2019s not about new taxes, it\u2019s not about interfering in people\u2019s lives, but it is about reporting on the actual outcomes of the tax system in a robust and complete way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe member Andrew Bayly is correct that the Adam Smith principles go way back when. But, of course, since then there have been reports in comparable jurisdictions to New Zealand\u2014including the Mirrlees report in the United Kingdom, the Henry report in Australia, and, in New Zealand, reports going back to the McCaw report, followed by two reports that McLeod was involved in, Sir Rob McLeod, followed by the Victory University report, followed by the Tax Working Group that the Hon Sir Michael Cullen chaired\u2014that have elucidated on those principles. They are better described, and I think the expert advice that the Finance and Expenditure Committee had from Sir Rob McLeod was that the principles were appropriate: horizontal equity, efficiency, vertical equity, revenue integrity, compliance, administrative costs, certainty and predictability, flexibility, and adaptability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s interesting to hear from Andrew Bayly\u2014because he doesn\u2019t actually object to the ones that go to efficiency. He is just fixated on people not being able to understand what the actual outcomes are for New Zealand in respect of horizontal equity and vertical equity. Those are the things that the National Party dislikes light being shone upon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EUntil the high-wealth individuals report was done earlier this year, New Zealanders did not know that that cohort on average had $256 million of net assets each, yet paid a tax rate of under 10 percent per annum on their effective economic income. Now, Mr Bayly translates that to a statement by the Labour Party that says all unrealised gains should be taxed. That\u2019s never been the proposition from the Labour Party, and indeed the questions that were asked by the Opposition spokesperson on finance, Nicola Willis, in the House today illustrate why this is so necessary. She peppered the Government with questions purporting to say that we have a capital gains tax on the family home. This is one of the ways in which the right always manage to obfuscate on the actual effects of tax rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why this tax principle in respect of horizontal equity says that there are important areas where exemptions to taxing economic income are justified in pursuit of wider social outcomes. For example, not taxing the imputed rent or gains on an owner-occupied house. So this principle would put beyond doubt that, in the view of this Government, you should never tax the family home, whether it\u2019s on capital gains\u2014and yet that party is voting against it. Why is that party voting against it? Because there are other parts of this bill that really worry them, which is shining the light on the true state of affairs in our tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMr Bayly seems worried that there\u2019s going to be some enormous compliance burden. You know, the study that was produced by the Treasury at the same time as the high-wealth individuals study didn\u2019t rely upon any data of an individual nature. It relied upon survey data through the household economic survey, which the member doesn\u2019t seem to complain about\u2014the household economic survey, which looks into the affairs of people in all stratas of society and which we know is very accurate for nine out of the 10 deciles studied or 18 out of the 20 ventiles studied, as per the Treasury study. They did that on the basis of that information, without having to go to individuals. They then make adjustments to it based on their understandings of other data sets. But they\u2019re not going into individuals and doing as we did with the high-wealth individuals research project, and that is not going to be repeated often. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut that sort of study is necessary occasionally because we know that those survey measures of wealth don\u2019t work at the top end, as evidenced by the fact that the high-wealth individuals study found that the average wealth in that cohort was $256 million per person, including all their trusts and company interests, whereas the household economic survey has only ever found two people with assets of more than $20 million, and I think the figure was something like $36 million. That\u2019s the highest net wealth ever found by the household economic survey. Yet this survey of the high wealthy showed that the average of this cohort was $256 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220576e0c7ca27410eadf3d44f4319767a\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re scared of data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2b80e02083b4b8aa5a9474b4a93c6c8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just data\u2014it is just data. The idea that the National Party on that basis would oppose this legislation, when we know that the absence of data has made for a barren and ill-informed debate on taxation in New Zealand, misrepresented by the National Party, as they did this very day in respect of the taxation of the family home in the questions by Nicola Willis\u2014another example just today of why we need this legislation and another example of why the National Party hates it, because this pulls the plaster off. It shows transparently what\u2019s actually going on over time. This is a fantastic bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b29722fa4a8402a86e57e3782a3d39f\u0022\u003EDr Emily Henderson\u003C/span\u003E: Long overdue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce327f5808694ddd978fe3cbed6307c8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s long overdue and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe2e113fef754fc2a9b5fa58067273b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe2e113fef754fc2a9b5fa58067273b3\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, I rise to speak in opposition to the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill, and I apologise in advance that it won\u2019t be nearly as animated as my good friend and colleague Andrew Bayly or, in fact, the Hon David Parker were. I have to say that\u2019s the most animated I have seen them. How two men can get so excited over tax is a little difficult for me to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EBut we do oppose this bill because it is simply a bureaucratic make-work scheme, and National will repeal this bill. Goodness knows, this Government, with 14,000 more bureaucrats in place, knows how to make a make-work scheme for bureaucrats, although, sadly, a good number of them are communications staff. But we won\u2019t go any further down that track tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWe all know that a good tax system\u2014at least, I did enough in my Accounting 101 to know\u2014should be fair and it should be simple and it should be transparent and administratively easy and adequate to service the country\u2019s revenue needs. But this is where it does get a bit sticky: is that adequate to service the country\u2019s revenue needs when there is a fiscally disciplined Government, or is it adequate to service the country\u2019s revenue needs under an addicted-to-spending Government such as this current Labour Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EPoliticians don\u2019t really need a tax principles Act to tell them that a tax system needs to be fair, simple, transparent, and administratively easy, and\u2014as I\u2019ve already traversed\u2014with the subjectivity of being adequate to service the country\u2019s revenue needs, tax policy does inherently have value judgments. So National doesn\u2019t need a tax principles Act and a bevy of IRD staff running round gathering information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EActually, I was very interested in the Minister\u2019s description of a high-wealth project. It seems very much more like a high-wealth witch hunt. However, National doesn\u2019t need a tax principles Act to tell us our principles on tax. Our principles on tax are really simple: New Zealanders should pay less tax and keep more of their own money because they spend it better than a Government does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EQuite aside from this bill being unnecessary, it\u2019s also got some significant flaws. It doesn\u2019t provide any details on what the framework is and it doesn\u2019t give any real idea as to what this could be. It doesn\u2019t indicate any level to what degree of reporting there will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be very clear on this one: everyone is agreeing that a good tax system\u2014and I will keep repeating it\u2014is fair, simple, transparent, and administratively easy, but this bill is a bill that a Government would introduce to make the most of misleading claims found in an IRD report. Some people call it a high-wealth project; many of us call it a high-wealth witch hunt. It allows a Government to introduce taxes on the back of misleading claims found in an IRD report on the 311 wealthy families in New Zealand. It\u2019s almost \u201CShame on them! How dare they be wealthy?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo this bill lays the framework for a capital gains tax. The Hon David Parker might have had the capital gains tax rug pulled out from under him at this point, but the public should be under no illusion: this bill lays the framework for a resurrection of a capital gains tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe public know that Labour can\u2019t be trusted on tax. It was a very, very marginal call for the Hon David Parker to use the IRD, funded by taxes from the public of New Zealand, to investigate the affairs of wealthy New Zealanders and then use that information to inform the Labour Party tax policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EChanges from the brightline test, from two years to 10, and removing the interest deductibility are things that show the public they can\u2019t trust a Labour Government on tax. In fact, those changes were done in a Supplementary Order Paper\u2014they never went near a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo we know there are fundamental differences between a Labour Government\u2019s attitude and a National Government\u2019s attitude towards tax. It\u2019s very simple: Labour want more tax\u2014they love tax. They want more of hard-working New Zealanders\u2019 money. They will tax anything that moves; in fact, they\u2019ll tax anything that doesn\u2019t move. They love tax\u2014it\u2019s in their DNA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EA National Government wants less tax. A National Government wants hard-working New Zealanders to\u2014[Interruption] You\u2019d like me to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241d6d98ba8e646a0947d63520fa7bef0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Stick to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224938abe4fe924e01a0c9270f5ca2da79\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Stick to the bill\u2014thank you very much, Mr Speaker. So it\u2019s very simple: National doesn\u2019t support this bill. We consider it is laying the foundation for simply taking more tax off New Zealanders. It isn\u2019t necessary. We oppose it and, of course, we will repeal it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022222b9b6ea2b847e3b055c0e3591c83bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022222b9b6ea2b847e3b055c0e3591c83bb\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Any political party that was interested in fairness and interested in evidence-based policies would love this bill, because this bill puts evidence into the conversation. That\u2019s why it\u2019s being done. Ordinary New Zealanders know anecdotally, they feel that somehow there\u2019s some unfairness in the tax system, and the thing that was revealed in the work led by the Hon David Parker this year was to show the anomaly between the richest 1 percent of New Zealanders paying an effective tax rate of 8.9 percent while most of the rest of New Zealand pay around 22 percent. Now, I don\u2019t call that fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe National Party likes to call it fair, and you have to wonder why. If they are scared about putting sunlight on to data, which is what we do for every other policy base that we do in this House\u2014we rely on information and real data\u2014why are they scared to put this tax principles bill through? That\u2019s the question. For too long, there have been assumptions around the tax system, there has been an approach to policy which is pretty much on guesswork, and, finally, we have the intellectual rigour and the data to be able to support an informed debate. That\u2019s all this bill is\u2014no more, no less. We\u2019ve heard unequivocally from our Prime Minister, and again from the Hon David Parker today: there is no intention to put a capital gains tax on the family home. This is simply about transparency and data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy question to ordinary New Zealanders who might feel that they\u2019re paying an unfair amount of tax compared to the top 1 percent is: what is the National Party, what are the Opposition benches afraid of in this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb79016e380c404c9dd7af1008c093a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb79016e380c404c9dd7af1008c093a4\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in opposition to this Taxation Principles Reporting Bill at its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ECan I make a couple of observations about procedure around the bill? One of them is just the amount of time that members have spoken. We had, of course, the learned Deborah Russell, who I think may have written a book about tax\u2014I guess everyone has their own interests\u2014and she managed to squeeze out a full three minutes as the Minister responsible for the bill. Then David Parker, who of course is the brains trust and intellectual architect\u2014he managed to squeeze out four minutes out of the allowable 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut then there\u2019s Andrew Bayly. He almost got to 10 minutes, but he didn\u2019t actually talk about the bill. Then there was Penny Simmonds\u2014I think she may have got to 10 but I was asleep for the middle eight so I don\u2019t know if she talked about the bill, but certainly not in the first minute or the last minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224de2b20205f04cea9f06d9dc51510eba\u0022\u003EPenny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Unkind!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d759c37db842467c86a5166e3978bd60\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in fairness, the member Penny Simmonds says I\u2019m being unkind. Of course, it is possible the middle eight minutes are interesting. I wasn\u2019t conscious for it. Why is there so little to be said about this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI think the reason is that it is a complete nothing. It\u2019s an exercise in bureaucracy that has been poorly conceived, poorly put together, and actually doesn\u2019t achieve any real outcomes. It\u2019s a bill for people watching along at home\u2014because no one, as far as I\u2019m aware, has really summed up what this bill is about\u2014that requires, as the name would suggest, tax principles reporting. Every year, as an interim measure, and every three years, as a final measure, the commissioner of IRD\u2014in practice, their staff\u2014is required to produce a report on the tax system, commenting on a range of different attributes that people who study these things think are important for a tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo every year\u2014and then in a more fulsome way every three years\u2014the Inland Revenue Department is required by Parliament to report on whether there is horizontal equity, whether or not there is efficiency, whether there is vertical equity, whether there is revenue integrity, compliance and administrative costs, certainty and predictability, and flexibility and adaptability. So in other words, what Parliament is doing tonight is requiring more paperwork to be produced by the IRD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe question is: what benefit will this bring for people sitting at home who will now, as a result of this law, have to pay for this particular law? Well, they\u2019ll be given a report that somewhat measures how New Zealand\u2019s tax system, at any given time, measures up by those parameters, but it\u2019s of almost no use whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EFor one thing, it\u2019s not actually necessary to pass a law to make it happen. Any Government at any time\u2014so long as they are in charge of IRD, which they are\u2014could request that the IRD evaluate the tax system according to these metrics. What\u2019s interesting is the current Government\u2019s been in place for six years. As far as I\u2019m aware, they haven\u2019t actually taken the time to produce these metrics in any kind of methodical or regular way. So you have to ask yourself, why is it necessary to pass a law for every future Government to do something this Government itself didn\u2019t do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another interesting thing about how this law came about, and it\u2019s this. There\u2019s a set of rules that are used called the Generic Tax Policy Process. When a Government goes about making tax laws, it is supposed to use the generic tax policy process. The reason that it does that is it\u2019s nice to think that a Government would actually consult all the people affected in an open and equitable and transparent way; get the information from the community about what people want from a new law; and, ultimately, produce tax law that is, well, actually, funnily enough, all the things listed in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s interesting\u2014and it\u2019s been noted by people such as Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand, people that actually do this stuff every day, complying with the tax system. Well, the Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand point out the enormous irony that the bill that\u2019s about how the tax system should be managed\u2014the principles of taxation in New Zealand and reporting on them\u2014did not use the Generic Tax Policy Process in its own formulation. What they did, instead, was they asked a couple of stakeholders\u2014one of them was CANZ, the Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand\u2014to give their view. It was basically inside baseball and the people that were consulted complained that it was just them that were consulted. They said, \u201CActually, you should have done a more fulsome process.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThat would have been desirable because actually they wanted\u2014or Labour, I assume, would like to create a system of tax principles reporting that has broad-based support from parties across Parliament that everyone can sign up to so it somehow lifts good tax policy above politics. I would assume that\u2019s what they were trying to do. But the problem is that they didn\u2019t even use the correct process for making tax policy in the first place. As a result, it has very little subscription from this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EOne of the results of that\u2014as I\u2019m sure you, like me, are lamenting this time of year is the very, very trickling end of the Bluff oyster season. Well, this bill will last about as long as a Bluff oyster in the sun. Because it\u2019s going to be passed tonight\u2014rushed through under urgency by this Government that knows the writing\u2019s on the wall\u2014and then it\u2019s going to be gone. Because the Government will change and this will be repealed to save the Inland Revenue Department money from not having to produce these reports that have no value. The people on the left know that\u2019s going to happen. That\u2019s why we\u2019re here, sitting till midnight, because they\u2019re rushing as many laws through as possible before they are gone forever, as some sort of desperate last gasp monument-building to this failed Government. But don\u2019t worry, Mr Speaker, this\u2014Madam Speaker, I see you\u2019ve changed\u2014this law [Interruption]\u2014nothing wrong with that, don\u2019t laugh\u2014this law is going to be gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnother reason why it should be gone is that it doesn\u2019t do even really basic things. For example, it produces a series of tax principles that it wants reporting on. But as submitters on the bill pointed out, it didn\u2019t actually give any kind of prioritisation. So if you don\u2019t know whether efficiency or vertical equity or horizontal equity is more important than one or the other, or which of the seven or eight principles are most important, then every report is simply going to say that a tax system has somewhat complied with a bunch of principles, but there\u2019s trade-offs between them and you can\u2019t satisfy them all. So without any sense of framework of what should be prioritised, it\u2019s not going to provide any useful information; it\u2019s just going to be a nothingness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EOf course, if there were to be values and priorities put into them, future Parliaments would reserve the right to ignore those values and priorities because here in a parliamentary democracy, people actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c44662a6ad474dba94fb1a3be49db83f\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s the point: you get to choose. You just know what you\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265b69108eb104308b30339f6f1c04653\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Helen White\u2019s got something to say. What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f13c805b09c484da6d62f5a5a4166ba\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: You get to choose, but the public will know what you\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b66214ec5921488685e64f12cf1431b3\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what Helen White\u2019s saying. But of course, as we\u2019ve already traversed, if Helen White had been listening, then she would know I\u2019ve already said any Government, at any time, could produce a report on these principles. Therefore, the law is completely unnecessary. Her own Government hasn\u2019t done it for the last six years, so they obviously don\u2019t think that it\u2019s important either. However, I\u2019m pleased to see that Helen White has used her short time in Parliament to get no good at heckling whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe question that people really have is why is Labour doing this? Why are they putting more cost and more money, more bureaucracy onto the taxpayers of New Zealand for no good purpose whatsoever, that will produce no value, that couldn\u2019t have been produced otherwise if people wanted it\u2014and people don\u2019t want it, because Labour aren\u2019t doing it. They\u2019re here ramming it through under urgency with minimal debate. They can\u2019t even be bothered debating it themselves. Three minutes from the Minister in charge, four minutes from the intellectual architect of the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281498cb6486645d08da1948105bd453e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Six! Six.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284b600f41f3b476091f8648f803af79a\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s now saying six minutes. See, inflation is everywhere with this Labour Government. Because just a short time ago he told me it was four minutes; it\u2019s now six minutes. It\u2019s like a crowd at a Labour Party meeting. It grows in the telling every time it\u2019s mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENevertheless, I finish by saying this bill is opposed, and it won\u2019t last. In fact, it won\u2019t last as long as a delicious Bluff oyster left out in the in the July sun. It\u2019s going to be gone, gone, gone. A waste of Labour\u2019s time, but no more waste of IRD\u2019s money. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022327a112699524291a992a60eae0b90e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022327a112699524291a992a60eae0b90e3\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Just in response, initially, to the points made by the last speaker: if the length of speeches in this place were a determinant of their quality, their substance or their meaning, we really are in the \u201CUpside Down\u201D. Back in the 19th century, we were told, in places like this, in Houses of Parliament across the world, that the introduction of PAYE and of itemising income was going to result in the sky falling in, and those who are wealthy or on high incomes hiding those incomes to do everything that they possibly could to avoid the way that the tax system was going to change. And, of course, it has become a norm for us now to expect that good tax systems across the world see their citizens and their residents, their taxpayers, itemising that income and PAYE being a norm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re hearing exactly the same things from members of the Opposition right now when it comes to the determination of economic income\u2014that doing this itemisation, that providing the sunlight on these datasets and this evidence is somehow going to result in the sky falling in. My question for the members of the Opposition is: \u201CWhat are they so scared of?\u201D Because if, as they just themselves said\u2014the member Penny Simmonds, and I quote, that \u201CThis lays the foundation of a capital gains tax.\u201D We heard similar intimations in the previous readings of this bill, that it\u2019s going to lay this foundation for this mystery tax that is going to come out of nowhere. If it\u2019s laying the foundations for a tax change then surely they understand that what we are looking at here is an evidence base that would rationalise that necessary change mandated by the New Zealand public who would find the impetus for that change on the basis that things are presently deeply unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI just can\u2019t understand what we are hearing from members of the Opposition on this because they have not once gone into any level of detail about any of the seven principles that they oppose. In fact, the greatest level of opposition and detail that they\u2019ve provided, as did the ACT member, is that they are opposed to or somehow don\u2019t quite understand how the trade-offs are going to be reported against. And once again, I would make it just abundantly clear, as the bill itself does, that it is not the role of the IRD to point out where those trade-offs should be but to make explicit that there are trade-offs and that that becomes a political decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EOf those seven principles\u2014of horizontal equity, the extent to which people with similar levels of economic income\u2014well, you\u2019ll find that it\u2019s defined in the bill, if any of the members of the Opposition would like to read it in contributing to the debate tonight. Then we have efficiency, we have vertical equity, we have revenue integrity, which the member Penny Simmonds also somehow seemed to be really in favour of but hadn\u2019t read the bill, which is actually going to be ensuring that we are reporting against precisely that which she said was really important. We have consideration of compliance and administrative costs. We have certainty and predictability and flexibility and adaptability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders have long had a suspicion that our tax system is unfair but as the former Minister of Revenue, the Honourable David Parker, just laid out, prior to the high-wealth individuals report and project by IRD, and supplementary papers from Treasury, we did not have any meaningful data or insights into the levels of income held at the top end of town, and particularly on that economic income. And what we have with those 311 families surveyed in that dataset are families with an average income of $276 million combined. Prior to that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226af742ebd27b4a07a2144e9c613ab6a9\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Wealth, not income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cac584b11dce4cddaa0902f0053c0f47\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014wealth, rather; wealth between them. Prior to that, we had not previously seen any meaningful data collection of income above or twice, I believe, above $20 million. Again, I would implore members of the Opposition to point us to which of the tax principles they are opposed to because, in lieu of being able to do that, we can ascertain that they believe that these principles are important, which then leaves us with the question of why they are opposed to seeing those tax principles reported against and that information inserted into the public sphere. The only conclusion that you can draw from that is that they want to keep things secret. They don\u2019t want New Zealanders to know this stuff because they don\u2019t want to see the logical and evidential foundation laid explicitly and clearly for that capital gains tax or that wealth tax that they are so ideologically and dogmatically opposed to, regardless of the evidence which, evidentially, they are intent on suppressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThen we heard from members of the Opposition that they are going to be repealing this if they manage to be in a position to form the Government. To that effect, I just have to reflect on one of the sentiments that\u2019s never left my mind since it came out of the mouth of Andrew Bayly in a tax debate that we were having a few years ago when he said, and I quote, that \u201CThere is such a thing as \u2018legitimate tax avoidance\u2019.\u201D, end quote. It\u2019s the quiet part said out loud. We have a tax system that enables the wealthiest in this country to continue to arrange their affairs, their assets, and their wealth in such a way that sees them, as reflected in the high wealth individuals report, paying an effective tax rate less than half of that of the average New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo those suspicions that New Zealanders have held for a really, really long time have been confirmed in that high wealth individuals report, and here we have a piece of legislation which will provide us with a reporting framework, sustainably into the future, to enable us to continue to have that evidence-informed debate and, God forbid, a long-term dataset for us to continue having that evidence-informed debate into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis is precisely the kind of thing that any good lawmaker with integrity and with a willingness to look at the evidence to produce public policy should be in favour of. I don\u2019t really think that there\u2019s much else to say here but, as the member David Seymour was saying before, apparently the quality of our contributions are measured by the amount of time that we consume on the clock. But all I\u2019ve got to say is that I don\u2019t know what the National and ACT Party are so afraid of beyond the evidence, which makes it crystal clear that tax settings in this country are unfair, and the fact that when the majority of New Zealanders see that laid out clearly, concretely and tangibly, they will demand change, and that change will not look like the propositions from the National or the ACT Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAs Jeanette Fitzsimons, the founding co-leader of the Green Party once said, \u201CSunlight is the best disinfectant.\u201D, and I want to applaud the former Minister of Revenue, the Hon David Parker, for the amount of work that he has done here, laying the foundation for institutional change in reporting and in transparency, which means that we can have better public policy in this country once and for all. Because I don\u2019t know what the point of this place is without that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002201c06b0c87fe428395ae65201dca176b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201c06b0c87fe428395ae65201dca176b\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E One of the most important things we do as parliamentarians is we tax people. It\u2019s a very serious thing, because people work really hard, and the lower their income, then the more the responsibility is on us to make sure that we what we are doing is fair and reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it shows us the effect of our tax policies. It shows us whether they\u2019re fair on people, whether they\u2019re a reasonable way to tax our hard-working citizens\u2014and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, you\u2019d think it would have been something that we\u2019d been doing for a very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI would wonder at anyone who suggests that it\u2019s a waste of money to report what is actually going on in this country with regard to such an obligation. The parties on the other side of this House ought to be ashamed, because these are our people, these are our country people, and they deserve a fair tax system, but, more important, they deserve to know what is happening in their country and who is paying tax\u2014and if they know, you shouldn\u2019t be afraid if what you are doing is actually fair and honest and consistent with these principles, should you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis bill is a wonderful thing because it brings our system into the sunlight. It shows us what we\u2019re doing. Then, yes, we can have a conversation, but, if, as the other party suggests\u2014if it were elected we know what would happen: this would be buried, because the last thing that they would want is for New Zealanders to know what was going on in this country with regards to wealth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022979c1f3e0b3b4e7b854d90930e0787f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022979c1f3e0b3b4e7b854d90930e0787f0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on Chris Penk for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022eecc41b945e04e3aafc893aee8428c57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eecc41b945e04e3aafc893aee8428c57\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Well, there\u2019s been a lot of heat but very little light from the other side of the House. I have listened as carefully as I can imagine doing to understand what the point of this legislation is. It doesn\u2019t actually do anything. The best thing that can be said for it, as we have heard from the other side, is it doesn\u2019t raise any taxes. Well, thank goodness for that\u2014finally, something with the word \u201Ctax\u201D in it that doesn\u2019t increase the burden of taxation on the average hard-working New Zealander. It also doesn\u2019t lower taxes, mind you, so there\u2019s no relief in sight for the long-suffering taxpayer either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the only thing that it does do, if anything, is enable reporting, we\u2019ve heard, or perhaps require reporting. Well, it\u2019s not necessary to enable reporting, because reporting is a thing that can take place anyway. We\u2019ve heard from the other side about this great information-gathering exercise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f055feafe01d49fea01baa093404610d\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, Chris\u2014you\u2019re smarter than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e6725f17324853b36198c188806eb2\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not smarter than this, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, so there\u2014gotcha! We can make light of this, but the point is that enabling reporting is not needed. A witch hunt or a fishing expedition or an information-gathering exercise can take place. It already has taken place quite recently as that; we\u2019ve heard that as part of the justification for this legislation. So do we need it to require reporting? Well, no, because a Minister of the Crown, be it the revenue Minister or anyone else, can require Government agencies to do it. That\u2019s the point of their being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b26f6d7932a64670b808138db8c8eee6\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not for ever, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b472ee5ef044da2a19b239b02af7977\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the point of having elections. It\u2019s not for ever, no; we have elections and people can stand for election and they can say that they stand for certain things. As the member of the House is very fond of saying\u2014and she\u2019s right in this\u2014everyone\u2019s got an ideology, there\u2019s politics in everything, and so there should be. We can all be judged on that. We can turn up to the New Zealand people every three years, we can say this is our tax policy, we can say, \u201CVote for us or don\u2019t vote for us on that basis.\u201D We don\u2019t need a law that says it\u2019s going to be enabled or required that we\u2019re going to have a measuring against these principles. By the way, earlier in the debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec0e8328e6e843ffa02d240186f00a6f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Which one don\u2019t you like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b5832fdc4514a378a574b328af4d335\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Which one don\u2019t I like? My argument is that there\u2019s no need for this legislation. As it happens, there has been a good discussion when\u2014I\u2019ll choose my words carefully\u2014we\u2019re not allowed to refer to the absence of members in the House. Earlier this evening, there was a good discussion about certain principles that were less favoured by Andrew Bayly, our spokesperson in that regard\u2014I\u2019ll defer to him; I don\u2019t know these things quite so well myself, but, I mean, it seems obvious that we can have these debates in a rational environment, in a political setting such as this, and if we have an election, and there\u2019s nothing to stop us getting the data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnyway, I\u2019m wasting my time being heckled by Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, because the general public have got a pretty good understanding. I don\u2019t buy the argument that we need this to somehow educate the public. They\u2019ve got a good instinctive feel for tax policy. They know what they like; they know what they don\u2019t like. The Government doesn\u2019t even agree with itself, and it certainly doesn\u2019t agree with its so-called coalition partners or support or whatever\u2014some support they provide. They\u2019re all at sixes and sevens\u2014in this inflationary environment, it\u2019s more like thirteens and fourteens, but after tax it\u2019s probably eights and nines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand public understand tax well. They\u2019re going to make sure that the current Government is the former Government very soon, and then they will understand tax a bit better themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0ce05480f4946e492a4c8242a748cb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0ce05480f4946e492a4c8242a748cb7\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m going to begin by commending Minister Parker and Minister Russell for their commitment to informed governance in an enduring way. Good data requires time, that is entirely the point of this bill. But much like my colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, I\u2019m a little bit perplexed tonight. I\u2019m perplexed by the \u201CNothing to see here behind the curtain\u201D sort of conversations that the Opposition members have been having this evening. But I\u2019m also perplexed about what it is they actually believe. I can\u2019t put my finger on it. Is it (a) that regardless of what the data shows, this data should never inform governance thinking, regardless of what it shows? Now, that is perplexing. Or is it (b) let\u2019s not look at the data because that might legitimately inform governance thinking? That they don\u2019t want to do that is entirely perplexing. On this side of the House, data is important. On this side of the House, good governance means eyes open to real data. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb91e1aac9c04ee7a8442b6fdf13d596\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb91e1aac9c04ee7a8442b6fdf13d596\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I want to devote and dedicate this very short call to the principle of vertical equity, which is the extent to which the tax system is progressive. Tax is progressive if people with higher levels of economic income\u2014that\u2019s not just earned income from working, but it includes the value of assets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022201d6ef15a74477f880cf195c485afe7\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re talking my language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b3f4b78e8d74abeba69b0c0549d168c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yup. People with higher levels of economic income pay a higher proportion of that income in tax. A progressive tax system does not mean that every tax is progressive. For example, GST is regressive, relative to income, but the overall system ought to be. In practice, wealthy people should pay no lower an average rate of tax, relative to their economic income, than middle New Zealanders. And that is what they\u2019re afraid of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c53913e1004f0fac86b435592a683c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c53913e1004f0fac86b435592a683c\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, I haven\u2019t taken part in most of this debate up until this hour of the night. I guess, on this side of the House, we get the fact that data is important; recording, measuring, and managing is important. However, the arguments that we don\u2019t buy into over here is we had quite a lecture around fairness before. Fairness is subjective, and fairness is related to ideology. Therein lies the difference between one side of the House and the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EYes, Governments need to be informed, but when it comes to fairness conversations, we\u2019re always going to have some sort of differing view around taxation systems. Therefore, the National Party opposes this bill tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd1bcb4309ec4c02b0764ea113e79d82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd1bcb4309ec4c02b0764ea113e79d82\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve just heard in the House that we can have differences of opinion on what fairness is. It\u2019s something that I think shows such a significant difference between why we need to tax in a way that ensures those who actually earn more pay a better, fairer proportion of tax. One thing I\u2019ve also heard tonight, as the final speaker, is that the National Government keeps saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022126d9cafa904464c8f7d7d59e39396f9\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Not yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ca5bd767e6049a884333ce25fa679bf\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK\u003C/span\u003E: National Opposition keeps saying\u2014but when they were in Government, they increased GST. They said they wouldn\u2019t, they gave New Zealanders a so-called \u201Ctax cut\u201D, and then they went back on their word. They said they wouldn\u2019t do anything anymore, and they taxed New Zealanders more GST. That speaks volumes about what the National Party really plans for New Zealand. They cannot be trusted on tax. They will tax, tax, tax Kiwis all the way if they ever\u2014ever\u2014get into Government. I hope they don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002207172a1ad2384320ae7593b20af174a9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001226\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002224b1a99f757a4c3caa68e94ef4a746f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224b1a99f757a4c3caa68e94ef4a746f5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d604f23925114769944fd68ad56e0d68\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022712c5a8ae8e44b58b34fc1a02af8d35b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c5a9687265846269a2ba7c550d7f472\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddf807f522884050bb7549d087bc2779\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddf807f522884050bb7549d087bc2779\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill. Members, we come first to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00225c0a1f7a54b642b4b223401b0615c460\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c0a1f7a54b642b4b223401b0615c460\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c07d26f74cdc402882547e40e41aff80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c07d26f74cdc402882547e40e41aff80\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Are there any objections? There is none. The question is that Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220781730c5aa34f149c9825fa7040b717\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220781730c5aa34f149c9825fa7040b717\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on this committee stage of this bill and there are a number of questions for the Minister in relation to the bill. Firstly, I\u2019ll note that in Supplementary Order Paper 419 there\u2019s some changes that have been proposed, and I\u2019d be interested for the Minister to take a call and to explain those changes to the committee and what the purpose of those changes are. I think it\u2019s important to have that put on the record given, given that this bill\u2019s already been through a select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe second question, really, is in relation to the purpose statement or the purpose principle, \u201CSection 115 amended (Principles)\u201D, in clause 9 that this bill changes in terms of the operation of public transport. I\u2019d like the Minister to outline and actually provide some justification for the legislative change. Because what we heard in committee\u2014and we\u2019ve heard in previous debates on this piece of legislation\u2014is that this bill was needed to fix the unreliability in our public transport system. This bill was needed to make sure we could electrify our buses. This bill was needed to make sure that the buses were turning up on time. And the question was asked during the committee stage of officials: did the public transport operating model stop regional councils operating public transport from being able to negotiate electric buses as part of the contract? Did it stop them from negotiating wages as part of that contract? Did it stop them from negotiating terms and conditions as part of those contracts? The answer was very clear from officials that, no, the public transport operating model (PTOM) did not. It did not stop those issues from being contracted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe Government, in my opinion, used COVID, used the fact that we lost a significant portion of our bus drivers during the COVID lockdowns, to basically try and say we need to change the law. That has been, I think, a misconception of the real issues here. So I\u2019d like the Minister to provide justification as to why those principles needed to actually be changed and why the issue of efficiency and value for money has been reduced from being a top priority to being a low priority in that list of principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe next question I\u2019ve got for the Minister is in relation to the question about how this legislation now allows for councils to, effectively, run public transport services in-house without having to go through a tender process. My understanding is that through the regulatory impact statement the officials didn\u2019t recommend that as the option, but that was rejected by the Government and I\u2019d like the Minister to answer and outline to the House why this Government thinks that in relation to the operation of our public transport systems, there shouldn\u2019t be a competitive tendering process to ensure that taxpayers get good value for money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa93474522414a969b7fe2f919a9eb73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa93474522414a969b7fe2f919a9eb73\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Perhaps dealing with the questions in the reverse order to which they were asked, with the last question answered first: the Labour-led Government believes that we can trust local authorities to efficiently run their public transport services and if they want to run them in-house, they can do. They don\u2019t want to have inefficient or overly expensive public transport services, but they do want them to be sustainable, both environmentally but also financially sustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the duties or the key principles that are in replacement section 115, the member in his question suggested that the efficiency objective is\u2014well, if I understood his question correctly, he asserted that the efficiency and value for money objective is a lower objective than the others. They\u2019re all ranked equally. The prior system required competition to be put ahead of all of the other principles. Now, efficiency and value for money is given equal weighting. In respect of what were the outcomes of the prior system, yes, the Government believes that the PTOM model did put undue focus on lowest cost tendering that led to unsustainable contractual arrangements by people effectively bidding down labour costs in order to win the contract. And, at the end of that, we were hundreds of bus drivers short and we had lots of bus services that weren\u2019t running in our major cities. As a consequence, public transport became less reliable, and fewer people were using it. That undermined the viability of public transport and it also increased traffic congestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFinally, in respect of the issues in the Supplementary Order Paper, they really are all technical. They\u2019re shown in track changes in the Supplementary Order Paper on the Table, and members can see that they are technical with the possible exception of the amendment to section 150, in clause 19, with the insertion of new subsection 3A, as it is currently. The explanatory note says that the insertion of that new subsection 3A into section 150 of the Land Transport Management Act relates to matters the Minister must consider before making the regulations regarding exempt public transport services. Those subsections do not provide the extension of the category of exempt public transport services to include appropriate interregional services. New section 3A provides for how those subsections apply where regulations relate to interregional services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere was a related amendment made at the select committee, but the consequential amendment to section 150 wasn\u2019t made, and is by the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022c707caf3ed214903af482bfbe192fe9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c707caf3ed214903af482bfbe192fe9b\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just for the sake of informing officials at the start of my call, I will be going to Waiheke. So I was obviously, in the last bill just before, applauding the Minister in his former role as Minister of Revenue around the work that he\u2019d undertaken. But in this one, as Minister of Transport, I have got to say he\u2019s been dragging the chain on the issue of the Waiheke ferries, he may know, with the previous Minister of Transport on this issue, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo just for the public who may not potentially be able to follow this one along at home, what we are talking about here is a move away from the Public Transport Operating Model (PTOM), as put in place by the former National Government\u2014then the Minister of Transport, the Hon Steven Joyce. This is the sustainable transport framework, or something along those lines\u2014the sustainable public transport framework\u2014which will allow for councils, finally, local authorities, to run public transport services themselves, as well as a range of other criteria that are outlined in the legislation through regulations. That is the marked change that Simeon Brown was just kind of referring to; the fact that there is no longer this requirement to contract out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo in the PTOM there are still a number of issues with regard to how the Minister previously could prescribe what are called \u201Cexempt services\u201D; services that are not subjected to\u2014even within that contracted out PTOM framework for there to be services that are, for example, meeting cost and servicing requirements for public transport. It\u2019s typically presumed that public transport services operating within the PTOM are those which are considered integral to the public transport routes by local authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe currently have a situation in T\u0101maki-makau-rau where we have one outlier amongst routes that are considered integral to the public transport network of that city by the local authority here\u2014by Auckland Transport as the council-controlled organisation for Auckland Council responsible for this\u2014and that is the Waiheke ferry route. That means that the Waiheke ferry route is not subjected to expectations and criteria on servicing and cost. And it has meant that my constituents on Waiheke Island have been subjected to, for at least the past decade, serious concerns with regard to the level of servicing and the cost of that service provision for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis has led to Auckland Transport\u2014an organisation not particularly renowned for its advocacy\u2014making it explicitly clear that they need the Government to remove the legacy of that exemption decision, made by the former National Government under pretty dubious means, I have to say. I did an OIA on this and found approximately 300 pages of advice where officials were making it really clear to the former National Minister not to provide this exemption because it would result in precisely the anomalies that we\u2019re now seeing at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut my written questions to the Minister have demonstrated that this shift from the PTOM into the sustainable public transport model is going to see those exemptions grandfathered. So we\u2019re not going to deal with this issue of this one outlying exempted service, which is not even currently required to meet the criteria of the PTOM, which the Government itself is saying is not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is how much longer is it going to take for him to revoke that exemption, which is a simple Order in Council process? I know that only about a month or two ago, we finally had the independent contracted report published. And I asked a range of questions to the Minister on that as well. And it transpired that the former Minister had not undertaken any of the recommendations of that independent report that they had received at the end of last year. So I\u2019m just wondering how much more time is necessary. How much longer are my constituents on Waiheke going to have to wait for that exemption to finally be removed? Because, Minister, the evidence is overwhelming. The report itself made it abundantly clear that there are some very evident things that the Ministry of Transport, that Waka Kotahi can do to start to get the ball rolling on this. But, to date, and as exposed in written questions, it doesn\u2019t appear like too much has been happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8420bdd533a405f8a9d024468db6588\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8420bdd533a405f8a9d024468db6588\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The member is correct that the passage of the Act doesn\u2019t revoke the exemption and that there would have to be an active decision taken in respect of the exemption to revoke it. I\u2019m not in a position to give the member an answer as to when those decisions will or will not be taken, tonight, but I will undertake to get back to the member within two weeks with some further information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbfe3bfa5682429db9c675b1b827a4dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbfe3bfa5682429db9c675b1b827a4dc\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Just in closing this back and forth with the Minister, I wanted to thank him for committing to get back to me on that point. There is an outstanding letter with his office that I sent a few months ago on this issue in particular, so I\u2019d very much appreciate that before the close of House business. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00222aa17fba2a5e44b8ab425487faf961b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aa17fba2a5e44b8ab425487faf961b7\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, it\u2019s wonderful to have a new Minister in the chair, a new Minister of Transport, with an almost unblemished record when it comes to transport. But, Minister, perhaps you\u2019d like to enlighten the House and those at home watching or listening, or maybe those who might click on Parliament TV at some point in the future, to understand how we got to this point. Minister, how is it that when consulting on apparent improvements to the delivery of public transport services in New Zealand\u2014those services which help, you know, workers get to work, students get to school and uni, and so on, how is it that even though the current model requires a competitive and efficient procurement of public transport services, so that ratepayers and the taxpayer through the National Land Transport Fund get value for money and so that public transport users get an efficient service\u2014I mean, we wouldn\u2019t want buses just running around the place empty all day, would we? I mean, no one\u2019s ever seen that, or with one forlorn person sitting in the back of a $100,000 or $200,000 vehicle on some rarely trafficked urban route. What we would want to see is efficient public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, perhaps, given that you\u2019re a relatively new Minister to the role, the previous Minister wore a number of different hats, and I\u2019m wondering if maybe you could explain how, in clause 14 of this Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill, and the Supplementary Order Paper, which has made some changes to what we saw at the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014how is it, in clause 14(1)A), that this amendment proposes to delete \u201Chaving regard to the desirability of encouraging a competitive and efficient market for public transport services\u201D and to replace it with \u201Cthe views of the territorial authorities in the region\u201D. For those laypeople listening at home, that means councils. So, delete \u201Cencouraging a competitive and efficient market for public transport\u201D; add in \u201Cthe views of territorial authorities in the region\u201D. Minister, forgive me, but I assumed that territorial authorities were actually procuring the public transport services, so we would assume their views are taken for granted. I mean, if you\u2019re procuring something like a bus service from the private sector, you would assume that you\u2019ve taken your own views into account when writing the request for tender or the scope of services. But maybe you can\u2019t assume anything in 2023 after six years of a Labour-led Government. Isn\u2019t that right, Simeon Brown? Can\u2019t assume anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen, \u201CAfter section 124(c)(v), insert: (vi) the views of the public transport workforce and its representative unions\u201D. Now, imagine trying to deliver public transport services for people trying to get to school or uni or get to work across the city\u2014or, as some of my friends and family do, catch a bus on the Northern Express busway from the northern suburbs of Auckland into the city\u2014and it turned out that instead of an efficient and competitive public transport service, what\u2019s going to happen is, after this bill\u2019s passed, somebody\u2019s going to go and ask the union whether they would like to keep working as bus drivers and whether they think the route is the right route, because when adopting a regional public transport plan, it\u2019s the unions that are going to have the final say as to what the bus services and routes look like. Not the customer; not the ratepayer, who\u2019s paying a significant proportion of the operating cost; not the taxpayer, who\u2019s paying an also significant proportion of the cost through the National Land Transport Fund subsidies; not the customer\u2014the union.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, thinking back to a time when there was a former transport Minister who was also the Minister of workplace relations and pushed through the Fair Pay Agreements Act and often talked about himself being a champion of the wakas\u2014perhaps, Minister, this is a mistake. This is a legacy. Maybe this should go on the bonfire of policies that the current temporary Prime Minister, Chris Hipkins, may have wished to put on the bonfire but missed. Minister, would you care to explain how on earth the views of the unions take precedence even over public transport suppliers, those private sector operators who supply the quarter-million-dollar buses, or the customers? How on earth do unions have precedence, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002202dfc54669534f66a3f8bf1ed86edee2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202dfc54669534f66a3f8bf1ed86edee2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The member\u2019s wrong if he asserts that the public transport workforce has the final say on these matters. It is one of the matters that\u2019s taken into account. Why is that sensible? The member may have recalled some industrial disputes, which was one of the underlying reasons why it was very difficult to recruit bus drivers, because routes were being run in a way that they couldn\u2019t go to the toilet or have morning tea during their shifts because the way in which the schedules were being run didn\u2019t even allow them to go to the toilet periodically. So I have no problem with those viewpoints being taken into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the higher standard that is accorded to principles which are high-level principles that sit over those taken into account in matters later in the Act, those higher-level principles include, at amended section 115, inserted by clause 9, as I already mentioned to Simeon Brown, that \u201Cpublic transport services should be provided in a way that assists\u2014(i) public transport investment to be efficient; and (ii) public transport investment to give value for money.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbbda03b3bd34b32b014fabd21e1f388\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbbda03b3bd34b32b014fabd21e1f388\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the member again, I would warn him to be respectful. One of the things he said earlier on was that the Prime Minister is a temporary Prime Minister. He\u2019s not\u2014he is the Prime Minister. You will be respectful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002249032fe217544c6db65ceedb7dc95f45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249032fe217544c6db65ceedb7dc95f45\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to come back to this clause 14 which amends section 124 of the primary legislation. As you\u2019ve raised, if bus drivers don\u2019t have time to get out and use the bathroom or take a smoko break or a vape break in between their shifts and assuming that there are already rules and regulations that stipulate how many hours commercial drivers can drive\u2014I understand it\u2019s 11 hours in a 14-hour shift that they\u2019re legally allowed to operate a heavy vehicle and that they must have regular breaks\u2014how is it, Minister, that even though fair pay agreements have been passed, even though there already exist employment laws and this Government has been a Government for six years, how is it, Minister, that under this Government, bus drivers weren\u2019t able to take a toilet break? What responsibility does the Minister take or the Government take for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225c5da1b681f54ccf93a7195f1ad30073\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c5da1b681f54ccf93a7195f1ad30073\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that question, because it\u2019s what you call a lob at the net. You know, the need for this is illustrated by the fact that under the current system, schedules were arranged in a way that was so impractical. You will get better outcomes if you talk to people as to whether these outcomes are practical. This isn\u2019t about the statutory maximum hours to be worked or the break that\u2019s needed every four hours; it was about simple things like whether routes could be run in a way that were fair to the drivers in order to attract drivers to the routes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00228224e0307c3d4e82828f4ba329980e53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228224e0307c3d4e82828f4ba329980e53\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, Minister of Transport, thank you for that explanation. Because, of course, an employer who wished to secure drivers to operate vehicles that could be worth a quarter of a million dollars, that meet the highest standards for emissions controls, Euro 5 or Euro 6 turbo diesel buses, or, if they have the ultimate luxury\u2014driving a low-emissions or electric vehicle or hybrid bus around our major metros\u2014you\u2019d think that if a public transport operator, a private sector bus operator, had tendered for a contract, assuming that in order to get paid they would have to deliver a certain number of services that met the schedule and they were there to pick up the passengers, that they would have provided, in their tender offer and in the way they manage their workforce, for regular breaks. Because there has not just been a driver shortage, there\u2019s been a worker shortage in New Zealand. New Zealand\u2019s been in a global war for talent, which includes competent heavy-vehicle - trained drivers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0775fe8c9646f8a4156062f36e781a\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here\u2019s the market genius.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022602dfdc42ed2472ea1cb3d8307c05cbc\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014heavy-vehicle - trained drivers. The Associate Minister of Transport, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, suggests that the ACT Party are full of geniuses. Well, Dr James McDowell here, he does have a degree which might help. I\u2019m a civil engineer and I\u2019ve worked in transportation, Mr O\u2019Connor. But the person here that you should be directing your questions to, Mr O\u2019Connor, is the Minister of Transport, David Parker, who sits in the chair and who has offered himself up for questioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I just need to try to get my head around this. A public transport operator has invested millions or tens of millions of dollars in very expensive pieces of equipment\u2014a quarter of a million-dollar buses. They\u2019re air conditioned. They\u2019re state-of-the-art. They have to have a certificate of fitness every six months. The drivers have to have been trained to a heavy vehicle standard. They have to pass alcohol and drug tests. And they have to be paid a reasonable rate. If they\u2019ve immigrated to New Zealand, they have to be paid the minimum wage, according to the immigration\u2014sorry, the median wage. The median wage. According to the immigration expert\u2014one of the ACT geniuses, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor\u2014they\u2019ve been paid the median wage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223514588eb34645d19c4aa73efb867b7e\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Is that too much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba8190f2864b4d4e9f4188ca16661a70\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: So not only are they well paid\u2014no, it\u2019s not too much. It\u2019s fine. That\u2019s up to the bus company operators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo here\u2019s the problem I\u2019m failing to understand. This bill proposes that, for some reason, bus companies won\u2019t give drivers a bathroom break, even though this Government\u2019s been in charge of WorkSafe, it\u2019s been in charge of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, so it could go in and investigate workplace safety issues or a failure to meet minimum standards. Clearly, after six years, that hasn\u2019t been a priority, because here we are tonight, debating a bill that would actually, according to the Minister himself, help resolve the issue of where drivers get to use the bathroom. So I\u2019m really interested, if a bus company operator, who\u2019s invested tens of millions of dollars in equipment, needs to put drivers in the driving seat so they can pick up passengers, so they can then invoice the council, the regional council who\u2019s commissioned them, in order to get paid, I would have just assumed that you\u2019d want to give better conditions to drivers, and that if there was a circumstance where somebody scheduling buses had forgotten to leave enough time for a bathroom break, that\u2019s something that would be brought to the attention of management and resolved quick smart because the last thing you want is your drivers walking away and leaving a quarter of a million dollar bus parked in at the side of the road, so you can\u2019t deliver the services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, I know you\u2019re not a genius but that\u2019s what the private sector does. They try to put people in the cab so they can operate a bus or a truck so they can deliver the service and then invoice their clients. But, apparently\u2014apparently\u2014this bill has to legislate so they can have a bathroom break, even though this Government\u2019s had all the power to check whether people get a bathroom break, for six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, are you absolutely sure that the views of the public transport workforce need to be taken into account when adopting a regional public transport plan because they might not get a bathroom break?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224c2e0d91df604629951b1569ffe6969b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c2e0d91df604629951b1569ffe6969b\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to take up a couple of points in relation to the workforce shortage that the Minister of Transport raised earlier. Of course, this bill is being promoted by the Government to apparently solve the workforce shortages that we have. I\u2019m not sure, Minister, whether you have seen the news, because, on 16\u00A0August 2023, which was\u2014what\u2019s that?\u2014seven days ago, Auckland Transport put out a statement saying relaxed immigration settings help end bus driver shortage in Auckland. So, Minister, the bill hasn\u2019t been passed and we no longer have a bus driver shortage in Auckland. In fact, Auckland Transport is quoted saying, \u201CIt was a big help from the government relaxing the immigration settings for bus drivers, and putting in that pathway to residency. We\u2019re applying those learnings to resolving the crisis in [ferries],\u201D. So, Minister, is it that the legislation needs to change, or was it that the former Minister of Transport, who was also the Minister of Immigration, was just a little bit caught off guard and not really thinking about, actually, how he should be talking to himself about the fact that as Minister of Immigration he could solve some of his transport issues? Maybe he was distracted doing other things instead. So I\u2019d like you to answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe second question is in relation to clause 7, which replaces section 27 with: \u201CLocal authority may hold interest in public transport services and infrastructure\u201D. The Minister said earlier, \u201CWell, it\u2019s a matter of trust\u2014it\u2019s a matter of trust. We\u2019re going to trust local government to operate these services efficiently and reliably.\u201D Well, why is it that this Government feels that it can trust local government to operate public transport services in-house efficiently? And now it\u2019s going to say, \u201CThree waters, we\u2019re going to take that all away because we don\u2019t trust you.\u201D So the Government can\u2019t have it both ways. But the point in that is that this bill takes it away from being operated in a competitive tender process, and officials recommended against that. I would like to understand how the Minister is going to measure, under this legislation, whether or not local authorities, if they were to operate those services internally, are operating them in a way which is efficient, providing good value for money, or is he just going to leave it up to \u201Ctrust\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d905bf35b972433cb46a318c06802685\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d905bf35b972433cb46a318c06802685\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It is correct that immigration has been part of the answer to resolving the driver shortage\u2014I accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4626ddb04b84a8580243fd9b46f0681\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s solved!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277986d4da0d94b46a56eb685a75ebefb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it was solved through Government intervention that was necessary also to provide more money to pay for higher wages to be paid for bus drivers because they had been competed down under the competitive model to a point that the driver\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764399e45d4d404f9d773db5434f19ca\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: You did that within the Public Transport Operating Model, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244110282a7804de49b6afcd609ee8fe5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we had to fix it because the current model\u2014we had to fix it using more Government money because the current model had driven down wages to the point where drivers could not be attracted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f16d3942b7244cd99cd2cfe253dc62b9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Terrible blimmin working conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b61438d2cf140c3824ea745d97d162b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is terrible that that was the position that was reached, and it was a failure of the current model that led to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the matter that that he raised as to clause 14 of the bill, there are lots of cities around the world that own their own public transportation systems, and their public transport systems are quite often better than ours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022398296a482ce469886c61e4d4791d170\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022398296a482ce469886c61e4d4791d170\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much, and I\u2019d like to ask the Minister whether or not the existing legislation allows for public transport operators to be able to put in place, in the tender, particular pay rates? Does the legislation need to be changed in order for them to be able to make the pay and conditions a non-negotiable term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc3e86a245374d3784d7ce2ad46fb460\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc3e86a245374d3784d7ce2ad46fb460\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The practice under the current legislation has been to award tenders to the lowest cost operator. The way those operators have lowered their costs is to compete on wages in a way that drove down wage costs to unsustainable levels, that meant that they couldn\u2019t recruit bus drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u0022619284e4a8d84f69837b19135996a31e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022619284e4a8d84f69837b19135996a31e\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00221b7a73aa40ad4b7eb35396a4b0cab37e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b7a73aa40ad4b7eb35396a4b0cab37e\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question was whether or not the existing legislation allowed for the wages and conditions to be a non-negotiable term in the tender process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002213ba7c30387c422d81282e8cd1fe3002\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213ba7c30387c422d81282e8cd1fe3002\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E My answer was that it\u2019s the wrong question, because the outcome was the one that I have repeated on a number of occasions, which was that the practice under the current model drove down wages to the point where the bus drivers couldn\u2019t be recruited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8f2350c6d8a4df6a13e1a8bf2466478\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8f2350c6d8a4df6a13e1a8bf2466478\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to come back to clause 6, \u201CProcurement procedures\u201D, before the House moves on to the next part of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EProcurement procedures. So clause 6 amends section 25 of the Land Transport Management Act and it removes the requirement that the procurement procedures under the Land Transport Management Act don\u2019t apply \u201Cto [the] procurement of a public transport service.\u201D Now, Minister, we haven\u2019t really had a clear explanation of why that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EOf course, there\u2019s been some concerns that tenderers have lowballed. If there\u2019s a price-quality component where some of a tenderer\u2019s qualities are evaluated and given a weighting, and the price is evaluated and given a weighting under a typical price-quality tender evaluation process, it may well be that the local council or regional council procuring a public transport contract got the weighting wrong. Maybe instead of the qualities that they could have given more weighting to\u2014like, for example, I don\u2019t know, driver pay and conditions, smoko breaks, bathroom stops, who knows; massages\u2014they could have put anything in there as a quality measure and given it a weighting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut if regional councils and local territorial authorities didn\u2019t do that and they gave price a greater weighting, well, isn\u2019t that something that the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2014NZTA\u2014through its National Land Transport Fund, through its activity classes for public transport, could have provided some guidance to local government as to what the price-quality weighting could be? Then, wouldn\u2019t it have been far more likely that the type of services offered came in at maybe a slightly higher price but had a different set of qualities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, if that\u2019s the outcome that the Government wanted, there are a number of different ways to direct it. Yet when we look at section 25, \u201CProcurement procedures\u201D, in the primary legislation this bill seeks to amend, it says 25(2)(a), essentially in approving a procurement procedure, the agency must look at the ability of \u201Cpersons to compete fairly for the right to supply outputs required for the preferred activities\u201D. Minister, what this will do is it will give councils the almost exclusive right to, essentially, buy services and put the private sector out of business. That\u2019s what they\u2019re afraid of, Minister, and that\u2019s what this bill does. In approving procurement procedures, the agency\u2014we\u2019re talking about the New Zealand Transport Agency, trading as Waka Kotahi\u2014must encourage \u201Ccompetitive and efficient markets for the supply of outputs required for approved activities.\u201D under section 25(2)(b).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, this is a small nation. If we can\u2019t encourage effectively functioning markets for the provision of services\u2014whether it be buses to pick up people and take them to work; or whether it\u2019s for physical works contracts so we can actually build the roads or the bus expressway; or for professional services contracts so that, for example, New Zealand Transport Agency, trading as Waka Kotahi, can actually get some advice about how to procure and maybe add some additional weighting to the quality metrics so that maybe they have a higher weighting than price\u2014Minister, all of these things are available to the agency. They\u2019re available to a Minister who might want to set direction through a Government Policy Statement on land transport, as the Minister did just last week when the Minister released the Government Policy Statement on land transport 2024-27, which included activity classes for public transport, where all of those directions are signals to be given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, isn\u2019t there a risk that this sets a precedent that by removing the requirement to encourage competitive and efficient markets for the supply of outputs required for transport services, that it actually removes one of the pillars of procurement that the taxpayer demands from a Government that is authorised to spend on behalf of the taxpayer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBecause if we can\u2019t have competitive and efficient markets for the supply of outputs for one type of transport service, Minister, is it likely that will also carry over into other types of transport services? Does this set a precedent, Minister, and was there any other way to achieve this measure? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223dd6d31c8324482da098a30071f7317f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dd6d31c8324482da098a30071f7317f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E As a matter of ideology, the last National-ACT Government, when they set up the Auckland City, tried to distance the control of the Auckland Council over all the things they owned and ran. That was a matter of ideology from Rodney Hide at the time, trying to force the corporate model upon Auckland City even when they didn\u2019t want it. We\u2019re not requiring them to run any other model, but we\u2019re allowing them to run services as they think fit. They do have to, obviously, meet cost-effectiveness and efficiency objectives as well as other objectives, and a sensibly governed city would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI would again make the point that there are many other cities around the world, including in the Land of the Free\u2014the United States of America\u2014or many parts of Europe, many parts of the world, where councils run their own public transport systems because they believe it to be more effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e176d02f151c4418b4d8fdb826b82290\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e176d02f151c4418b4d8fdb826b82290\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 419 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a875f221c0ab4cca8c207aa980162b2d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a1dd705b5ca84a33a8502172708899ff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001295\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001296\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6ea3262499643d4872b68ec8e23f305\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6ea3262499643d4872b68ec8e23f305\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc6025deb9b340ed84794f29c1184d39\u0022\u003E Third Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002283f64f347b8344ed823f9952a9272c0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f64f347b8344ed823f9952a9272c0a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614d59fa3e964b439e9392a3e56aba95\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b91f6ea178604ec89b91592292e9ddbf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Land Transport Management Act 2003, replacing the Public Transport Operating Model\u2014sometimes called PTOM\u2014with a Sustainable Public Transport Framework. The introduction of this new framework will support the Government\u2019s commitment to improving public transport in New Zealand. The change is necessary to address systemic issues in the planning, procurement, and provision of public transport. It\u2019s also necessary to set up the public transport system for the growth that we need to both achieve emissions reduction from the land transport system, and address traffic congestion in our metros.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EPTOM was intended to increase commerciality of public transport services and reduce subsidies by ensuring competition for the provision of the service, and has not, however, created a sustainable system, it hasn\u2019t adequately protected working conditions, nor has it provided regional councils with the necessary flexibility to tailor public transport services to the needs of their communities. Cumulatively, we\u2019ve seen a degradation of service reliability and we believe a better system can do better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the key issues with PTOM was the negative impact on the workforce. PTOM rewarded operators with low wage costs and resulted in operators struggling to recruit and retain drivers, ultimately resulting in reduced service levels. Auckland bus drivers were already hundreds of drivers short in 2018\u2014which is long before COVID to deal with one of the points raised by Simeon Brown. Operators couldn\u2019t attract and retain drivers because of poor wages and conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ETo address these chronic driver shortages, this Government had to intervene. We had to fund increased wages and improved conditions over and above the contract prices that have been locked in under the PTOM model. Once wage rates were increased and we were confident the sector was committed to improving driver wages and conditions, we also provided a temporary pathway to recruit migrant bus drivers. However, the sector needs to be sustainable in the long term rather than the relying on ad hoc measures such as we\u2019ve had to adopt to address these systemic issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe regulation of public transport bill represents a critical step in setting the public transport sector up for long-term sustainabilities. These longer-term solutions are found in the systemic changes proposed in the bill. We\u2019ve heard the argument that the objectives of the new framework can be achieved through contract variations under PTOM, but rather than relying on a patchwork of measures to try to resolve systemic issues, this Government\u2019s establishing a framework that drives fair and equitable treatment\u2014the work drills through the entire system, through planning, procurement and the operation of services. Embedding these outcomes in legislation will help effect lasting change in the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that PTOM has played an important role in increasing the integration and coordination of public transport networks, the new framework\u2019s not intended to overthrow the PTOM in its entirety. Key successful elements have been retained, such as regional councils remaining responsible for planning and providing services. Efficiency and value for money remain key considerations when it comes to planning, procurement, and investment decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Sustainable Public Transport Framework refocuses public transport planning, procurement, and operation to strengthen outcomes, support mode shift and accessibility whilst improving environmental and health outcomes. By enabling in-house service provision and public ownership of assets, public transport authorities will have greater flexibility in how they provide services. They will still be able to contract out services. Where a public transport authority chooses to contract out services, ownership of strategic assets like bus depots can reduce barriers to entry, in fact, facilitating increased competition for contracts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBy introducing new transparency requirements, we increase operator accountability, whether the operator is publicly or privately owned. This will also enable benchmarking of service delivery models, and actually will provide information for those who think that these models should always be provided by an outside party\u2014we\u2019ll have real information as to whether, on occasions, council provision is more efficient. By removing the automatic exemption for interregional services and thereby including them in the new framework, we facilitate the development of more interregional services, and more collaborative planning of these services between regional councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOverall, this bill will help us achieve better environmental, social, and economic outcomes. I note that the Supplementary Order Paper made some minor and technical changes to ensure consistency across provisions and clarify provisions to ensure they achieved the policy intent. I commend the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffb49e5dd7884c078fb0a1da29f2f6a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffb49e5dd7884c078fb0a1da29f2f6a4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00226e6d165c40014d029c914dc53d6aeed8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e6d165c40014d029c914dc53d6aeed8\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f25d2345721e4d0da40ce542da1bc055\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Simeon Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225917a7f0532418bb1caa7082e7d9801\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you. Thank you a second time, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call on the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill, which the National Party continues to oppose. We oppose this piece of legislation because it will not fix the issues facing our public transport networks. It will only increase costs; it will not increase efficiency and reliability, and what we will see is actually a degradation of the services given to the public. And, of course, this Government thinks that they know what is best. They think they know how they can fix the problem, and in fact, they\u2019re the ones who created the problem when it came to the unreliability of our public transport services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Government\u2019s very quick to blame COVID when it\u2019s helpful, but they\u2019re not very keen to talk about COVID when it\u2019s unhelpful. In this situation, what this Government did is when COVID came along, of course, many people started working from home, and a lot of bus drivers who were in New Zealand left the country because they were here on visas. They left the country and then this Government decided to not let them back in to the country. The former Minister of Transport, Michael Wood, had the illustrious job of also being the Minister of Immigration\u2014and the thing about that is the Minister of Immigration never spoke to the Minister of Transport, and the Ministry of Transport never spoke to the Minister of Immigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8ea38e152346a499805d1b26d4b5f3\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: Not even in his sleep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217900da5f27f49af807c8d4703aa7843\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, not even in their sleep! So what happened was, the Minister of Transport would complain about the fact that our public transport networks weren\u2019t operating, but forgot to think about actually\u2014what about allowing bus drivers, ferry workers, and train drivers back into the country so that we can actually make sure the services are able to operate? So instead, he came up with a catastrophisation and said, \u201CThe reason why it\u2019s broken is because of the public transport operating model\u201D. And the reason why they\u2019ve always hated that is because it has a word called \u201Ccompetition\u201D: competition and outsourcing the public transport operations to the private sector. This Government thinks everything should be operated by the Government and not be outsourced to the private sector, and they don\u2019t even believe in competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI heard the Minister say, \u201CWell, actually, some of the provisions in this bill might enhance competition.\u201D Well, how\u2019s it going to enhance competition when the bill removes the requirement to have regard to the desirability of encouraging a competitive and efficient market for public transport services? How can the bill even support competition when it takes away the requirement for competition to even be considered when it comes to our public transport operating in New Zealand? And the reason why the National Party opposes this is because we actually believe in the power of competition, in terms of actually delivering better outcomes for New Zealanders and actually achieving the outcomes that taxpayers are paying for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAnd this Government\u2014they think that money grows on trees. Well, actually, that money needs to be paid for by someone else, and money is coming from the National Land Transport Fund, which, of course, is being paid for by road users. It\u2019s been paid for by people who fill up their car with petrol or people who pay road-user charges\u2014who are then putting that money into the National Land Transport Fund, and a portion of that is then paid to subsidise our public transport networks. Now, this Government sees that fund as a slush fund, and the more that they can siphon away to be used on whatever they think is an important priority\u2014which isn\u2019t our roads\u2014is a good thing\u2014whereas on this side, we think actually, that money needs to be spent efficiently to get outcomes so that we can invest first and foremost in our roads and then in our public transport network. This Government sees it as a slush fund for their priorities, and so this legislation will mean more of that money is wasted on an unreliable service. It will not be reliable, it will not be efficient, it will cost more to run and less people will use our public transport services, and that is not going to deliver the outcomes that we need for New Zealanders. So the National Party opposes this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAnd what\u2019s more\u2014not only all of what I have just said, but the Government also then says, \u201CWell, we\u2019re going to let regional councils not even go through a tender process\u201D\u2014not even go through a tender process. In fact, they will be able to just say, \u201CWell, we think we can operate it more efficiently ourselves. We don\u2019t have to test that against the market; we don\u2019t have to test our proposition against the market to see whether it is more efficient or more cost-effective. We just think we\u2019ll be able to run it ourselves in-house.\u201D So there\u2019s not even a requirement to test that against the market, and we think that is also going to lead to an inefficient and unreliable service, because we see what happens when Government gets involved. They think they know best\u2014you end up with what we see right across the Public Service at the moment, where wait times to get anything from the Government have ballooned. It takes longer to get a hip operation, it takes longer to be on the phone to the New Zealand Transport Authority (NZTA) to report a pothole\u2014it\u2019s like half an hour to report a pothole, when it used to be under a minute to call NZTA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2e2d5105e3342718e7d81bf419df95b\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: You can fill one in three minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223698ca6323bf41898b27e1edf9f30c6c\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CYou can fill one in three minutes\u201D, says Simon Court, and I know that because he\u2019s a civil engineer; he\u2019s told me that five times tonight. Well, I can tell you, Mr Speaker, this Government has a terrible record when it comes to our public services and delivering outcomes, and this bill will not deliver better outcomes for New Zealanders. The National Party opposes it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00222555254f71294bbd9d12b584faec7aad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222555254f71294bbd9d12b584faec7aad\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, I love public transport and it\u2019s a privilege to take another call in this House this week about the Government\u2019s fantastic work to make public transport better in New Zealand. One of the comments that the other side have been making tonight is around their reliance on immigration to solve some of the challenges we have had around our driver shortage in New Zealand. Now, of course there are times when it is appropriate for us to bring workers in from overseas, but one of the problems with our public transport operating model introduced by the National Government is it has led to a race to the bottom on wages and conditions for drivers. One of the important components of this bill is that it will actually enable operators and councils to lift the conditions and wages for drivers, lift the training opportunities, and continue to grow the number of bus drivers that we have in New Zealand. It\u2019s an excellent bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022df5344f9d85a40dc9147f2a6208ba2a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df5344f9d85a40dc9147f2a6208ba2a2\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Before I start, I wanted to pay homage to a great man, a legend, a warrior by the name of James Brown\u2014no, not the movie star, dancer, and singer that many of you are accustomed to, but the leader, the erstwhile rangatira of a tribe called Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki, who passed away in the wee hours of this morning. He was a man who led the tribe from whoa to go, a larger than life personality and someone who was all about competition in the ferry market on the Waitemat\u0101 and te Pataka kai o T\u012Bkapa Moana, also known as the Hauraki Gulf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Minister for the opportunity to speak to the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill and echo my Te Pak\u016Brangar\u0101h\u012Bh\u012B colleague, Master Simeon Brown, who articulated the sub-optimal use of land transport funds and other funds slushing around for alternative and quite illusory concepts of urbanising the entire Aotearoa New Zealand nation into public transport use in the cities. That\u2019s what it\u2019s really about. It\u2019s not about the efficiency or the competition of public transport; it\u2019s actually about a more sinister dynamic, I\u2019d call it, that\u2019s come out of this Labour Government to try and make everyone urbanites, to try and make everyone townies, to try and make everyone live in the cities and live in public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EBut, you know, in 2012, we had the Public Transport Operating Model (PTOM), the great National Party under Sir John Key and Sir Bill English, which focused on a commercial basis, value for money, and competitive and efficient provision of public transport. But now we\u2019ve got a new ideology, we\u2019ve got a new way of doing things. Although well-intentioned, the assertion that the PTOM created problems for wages can be addressed without undermining the entire system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThis bill hatches new principles based on mode shift and union appetites. This is a risk space we don\u2019t need to be in because out there will be a wolf\u2014a wolf that is looking for more taxpayers to pay for these crazy ideas. The Bus and Coach Association, they have discredited this idea. They have said that this bill disregards business realities and market dynamics. Uber, the great company that we use from time to time, opposes this bill; it doesn\u2019t provide any scope for innovation. And Fullers360, that well-known Scottish-owned ferry business on the Waitemat\u0101 says that it appreciates that the Crown and local government need the ability to bring exempt public transport services within local government control, but their experience has been that this almost unbridled power\u2014remember that term \u201Cunbridled power\u201D from the former Labour Prime Minister Geoffrey Palmer\u2014leaves an operator with a permanent sword of Damocles hanging over their business. It\u2019s like ram-raiding through the public transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENow, Labour argues that public ownership of assets and in-house delivery are good. I just can\u2019t keep up, because last week and for the last couple of years they\u2019ve been saying on resource management reform and spatial planning and three waters that councils are not so good at doing things, but this week, they are very good and can be trusted on public transport\u2014bizarre flip-flop or flip-flap. Gymnastics all over again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENow, scrapping PTOM takes public transport backwards. It removes efficiency. It removes a competitive market-based approach to service delivery. It removes transparency. It removes common sense. Even the Ministry of Transport in the regulatory impact statement announced that enabling in-house provision without contracts performs worse than the status quo. But that is exactly the pathway that our colleagues in the Labour Government want us to take now. The sustainable public transport framework will stifle innovation. It won\u2019t win the Nobel economics prize, Mr Brown. It might win the Nobel Peace Prize; we don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EWe see this: in section 25 and section 116 of the Land Transport Management Act. In our view, this bill won\u2019t fix the problems around wages and conditions. Immigration is a better way to address those issues. Competition creates efficiency, not regulatory omnipotence and omniscience that this bill brings yet again. It doesn\u2019t like efficiency. Tax more, public transport more, and everyone will be happy. Kei te h\u0113\u2014it\u2019s wrong. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u0022620f0e961afb47679b561e8c056033f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022620f0e961afb47679b561e8c056033f1\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker for the opportunity to take just a short call tonight on the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill. I am lucky enough to sit on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, one of the hardest-working committees, that was able to work through this bill. We heard from over 50 submitters, good submitters, and, of course, I want to thank those submitters for taking the time to submit on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThis bill establishes, as we\u2019ve heard, a sustainable public transport framework that will replace the PTOM\u2014the Public Transport Operating Model\u2014that we have at the moment, which we clearly know does not work, which we clearly know does not support workers. We\u2019ve heard about the terrible working conditions of the bus drivers and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003ESo the sustainable public transport will make sure that we focus on strengthening employee welfare, it improves our environment and health outcomes, and, of course, it improves our public transport. It\u2019s a no-brainer, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf4cb70078c3429f936ed84df5f9c4df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf4cb70078c3429f936ed84df5f9c4df\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, it\u2019s remarkable that here we are, Wednesday, 23 August 2023. The House is sitting under urgency to debate a bill around the regulation of public transport, as if this was the most urgent thing that New Zealand faces right now. Not an affordability crisis for people wondering whether to pay a bill or put tyres on the car, not rampant crime, including crime, actually, at public transport facilities like bus stops and bus stations in places like Tauranga and the Bay of Plenty. And certainly not issues of divisive co-governance. No, we are here to debate the regulation of public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill hope to achieve? This bill hopes to modify the Public Transport Operating Model\u2014a model where councils procure, through a public and open tender process, bus companies to supply buses and drivers to pick up passengers and take them to their destination. It\u2019s worked quite well, apart from a few hiccups. And it\u2019s those hiccups which have given the Government cause and excuse to pass a bill which makes some quite significant changes not just to the way public transport is procured and operated but also has implications for the efficient allocation of taxpayer funds and ratepayer funds to public transport and transport services in general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just going to give a quick rundown of what this bill does. It removes the requirement for local councils to tender out for services, which means ratepayers won\u2019t know if the services that are being delivered are being delivered in a cost-effective way. They won\u2019t know because there\u2019ll be no prices to compare. Councils won\u2019t know whether they\u2019re getting value for money because there\u2019ll be no price to compare. Passengers won\u2019t know whether the service they\u2019re getting is value for money because there won\u2019t have been an opportunity for those procuring and delivering and managing your service in local government to work out whether it\u2019s the most efficient way to deliver it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBecause it may well be that a public transport operator\u2014a bus company\u2014actually knows something about passengers, knows something about where people work and live and go to school, knows something about traffic congestion on the route. Maybe they even know something about where people are most likely to wait and congregate for a bus. For example, if there\u2019s a shopping centre where people can wait under cover or maybe grab a coffee or, at the end of work, go to the mall. Maybe public transport private sector bus companies know things that local government transport planners don\u2019t know. That is why we generally tender for services when the public sector is procuring them: to discover the things that central planners don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EEven eloquent, intelligent transport planners like the Hon Julie Anne Genter, who was once associate transport Minister, and will no doubt be offering her own perspective on this bill in a very short amount of time. Not even the Hon Julie Anne Genter has perfect knowledge of where a bus might go, where the passengers might be waiting, and what the intentions are of those individuals who might get on a bus and go somewhere. That is why the public sector issues requests for tender to discover things that the public sector doesn\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, if only that\u2019s the problem with this bill. What else does it do? It proposes to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. It can\u2019t reduce New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions because greenhouse gas emissions are capped by the emissions trading scheme. Only the climate Minister can reduce New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions by allocating the number of credits that are auctioned under the emissions trading scheme every year. If the climate Minister wishes New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gases to be lower, they can simply lower the cap on our national emissions for any given year. This bill doesn\u2019t reduce emissions at all; it just reduces emissions from a few buses and allows another industrial or private person to emit more carbon as long as it\u2019s within the annual cap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill, apparently, according to the Minister who spoke on the third reading, will reduce congestion. It will allow public transport services to be delivered in a way that reduces congestion. Well, I know the Minister lives in Auckland, but he doesn\u2019t live in the part of Auckland I do: Te Atat\u016B Peninsula in West Auckland. Te Atat\u016B Peninsula has been a blue-collar workers suburb for a long time. A lot of people in Te Atat\u016B rely on the bus to get to school, to get to Henderson town centre or the night markets to do a bit of shopping or to get to the city if they are working in professional or office space jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis is what Auckland Transport and Waka Kotahi have done to reduce congestion using public transport. This is just one example, and I\u2019m sure there\u2019s more to come. Described as \u201Chigh quality public transport\u201D by the former transport Minister Michael Wood, they\u2019ve built bus stops on the side of the motorway at Te Atat\u016B Peninsula, now they\u2019re building bus stops on the side of the motorway at Lincoln Road. They fully expect that West Aucklanders, working people, will get off the bus on the side of the motorway in Te Atat\u016B Peninsula where 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 vehicles are going past every day, and then cross to another bus stop and then get on another bus. Now, the bus shelters are about as wide as the desks in front of each member of Parliament in this House. That\u2019s how much roof covering you\u2019ve got against a stiff sou\u2019westerly breeze in winter. That\u2019s high quality public transport, according to a former Labour Minister of transport. Has it reduced congestion? No, because the way they\u2019ve configured the bus stops has taken out traffic lanes, which means instead of free-flowing traffic, including buses leaving Te Atat\u016B Peninsula at peak times, now it\u2019s five lanes into two instead of five into three. So even if there was a bus, and we haven\u2019t seen one for a while because they cancelled the services\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200fe5b3fae954b01a6dfe508fa4e737a\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: How does it relate to the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ff8ec0a3a6841819bcdbe106a213ad1\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014while they reconfigured the bus stops. Hold on, we\u2019re talking about reducing congestion. That\u2019s what the Minister of Transport talked about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ce39ef12ac4df1bf55dc8f42087b7d\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: How does it relate to what\u2019s in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201c6d739ecdd4a9dbd5cfbcc9edea57f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014instead of\u2014well, hold on. This is Auckland Transport, a council, and NZTA\u2014the Government\u2019s transport agency\u2014co-designing better public transport, Helen Clark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293ab210b2c25444abd5a47057ce140d4\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: But it\u2019s got nothing to do with the bill, has it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022059a60ee4d904c90af17f434705a2546\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, this is what the bill\u2019s proposing more of. A bus would be stuck in the same traffic as all the other cars now. The traffic jam didn\u2019t exist before these public transport improvements. This bill won\u2019t reduce congestion. We have evidence right now of what a Labour Government - led public transport solution for Te Atat\u016B Peninsula in West Auckland looks like. It\u2019s traffic chaos. Buses are stuck in the same traffic as the car. If people ever were to wait at those bus stops which are roundly ridiculed in West Auckland by the working class people of West Auckland\u2014roundly ridiculed\u2014they would get wet in a mild shower, Helen White.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd then we come to the issue of workers\u2019 wages. A Labour-led Government, six years in power, saying this bill is necessary to uplift the terms and conditions and pay of bus drivers. Well, ACT calls nonsense on that because this Government allowed Immigration New Zealand to come to a sector agreement with bus companies and operators and councils to allow them to pay less than the median wage. So I\u2019d like to correct my statement from committee of the whole House when I said \u201Cbus drivers are paid the median wage\u201D, this Government, Helen White, who we understand used to be an employment lawyer, should be aware this Government came to a sector agreement which allows migrant workers and local workers to be paid $28 even though the median wage is $29.66. I don\u2019t know, maybe this bill won\u2019t solve that. Maybe this Government could have solved it some other way. Who knows? Maybe the bus drivers will give their party vote to ACT in the next Government because they\u2019ve got more confidence that under an ACT Party Government they\u2019ll get $2,300 as a tax break in the hand every year, up to $78,000, and they\u2019ll be able to decide how they spend their own money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, the truth is the reason that the Government allowed Immigration New Zealand and the bus companies to come to a sector accord is because NZTA and the Government couldn\u2019t afford to pay the bus drivers more. This bill is an incoherent waste of time, pushed around urgency by a Labour Government in its twilight, 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat would ACT do? Well, we\u2019d get on with building the roads, particularly in places like West Auckland, and a north-west busway would be a great idea, extending four-laning through to Kume\u016B and Huapai where a quarter of a million people are coming to live in the next 30 years, according to the Auckland unitary plan. Currently, their buses are stuck on the two-lane rural roads, the same two-lane rural roads I was commuting to work on in the 1990s. ACT would make sure that the roads are built, that we can restore efficiency and reliability to journey times. So if you are waiting for a bus on a fantastic north-west busway or in Kume\u016B and Huapai at some point in the future, you\u2019ll know you\u2019ll be able to get your destination on time. That\u2019s ACT\u2019s offer. We reckon Kiwis will give their party vote to ACT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022976df663a0b844bda857d494e6c8a59f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022976df663a0b844bda857d494e6c8a59f\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. The Green Party is supporting this bill. It\u2019s been a long journey to get to this point because we\u2019ve known that there needed to be changes to improve the operation and planning of public transport services for quite a long time and it\u2019s ironic, in some ways, that I\u2019ve some of the National and ACT speakers on this bill suggest that things aren\u2019t working that well for public transport at the moment but we shouldn\u2019t change it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI think everybody knows that things aren\u2019t working very well for public transport at the moment and hence that\u2019s the need to change the framework. Part of that goes back to that ideological decision. I believe it was in the early 1990s that most of these decisions were made by a National-led Government to not allow local authorities to own or operate public transport services, for the most part. I mean, Christchurch was sort of doing it, but for the most part those changes were brought in, and then there was a proposal for changing the operation of public transport at the end of the fifth Labour Government in 2008, and a really good option 3 passed without the public transport management, though. But National repealed that when they got in in 2009 and they worked up this other framework which I don\u2019t think ever had a whole lot of legislation around it. It was more operational or through regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut, fundamentally, what we\u2019ve seen is that if you want to have a well-functioning public transport system with services that genuinely give people choice, it doesn\u2019t work to have a whole lot of different operators. Like, having a whole lot of different private operators is a barrier to the transport planners planning an efficient network everywhere. It was a barrier to bringing in integrated ticketing and integrated fares, and it\u2019s a barrier when the owner of a bus operator suddenly sells it to an overseas hedge fund and then that overseas hedge fund actually doesn\u2019t have any interest in running the service properly. [Interruptions] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENo, but I mean, hello. Do National Party members\u2014I mean, obviously National members don\u2019t take the bus, so they don\u2019t understand what happened when Infratil sold NZ Bus and a whole lot of bus drivers left, and then they didn\u2019t even have\u2014like, they had a whole office in Wellington before; they didn\u2019t even have a manager in Wellington for the bus drivers to call because the overseas hedge fund didn\u2019t care and didn\u2019t have any incentive to run a good public transport service. And that\u2019s why it should be directly accountable to elected people at a local level because they have an incentive\u2014a direct incentive\u2014to improve the services to people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow I want, for the benefit of the National members who have recently been going around talking about the five countries in the world with the very best roads\u2014Singapore, the Netherlands, Switzerland\u2014all countries that have centrally-planned, excellent public transport. It\u2019s not done through private operators and, you know, less than half the trips in the cities in Switzerland, Netherlands and Singapore\u2014Singapore being the only city\u2014are by car. That\u2019s why the roads are good; this is what we\u2019ve been trying to tell you: if you invest in public transport and operate it properly, so many people take it that then when Hon Judith Collins tries to drive on the road, she will get stuck in traffic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut they haven\u2019t yet grasped this concept that you benefit the people driving on the roads when you run really frequent, reliable public transport services that are actually connected, and you can\u2019t do that if you have all your services cut up into separate operators. And then when there is a need and suddenly you realise there\u2019s a whole big transport need in one area, the bus operator\u2014you can\u2019t go to them and say we need this many buses and this many drivers. That\u2019s just not how it works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOK, sorry, I just\u2014you know, they don\u2019t want to know. So, anyway, I mean voters at home should consider this: if you want good public transport services, it\u2019s very important, this Labour Government and the Hon Michael Wood actually did the work on this bill to bring it through. It\u2019s going to pass before Parliament rises. That\u2019s very, very good. If some of the private operators don\u2019t like it, that doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s not good for public transport services and the people using public transport. Because, when you\u2019re talking about public money on things, if the private operators are raking in big profits and rolling in the money through operating their service, that\u2019s a sign you\u2019re probably paying too much for it. Otherwise, anyway, sorry it\u2019s 11.38 at night. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI just want so much for everyone across the House to understand that we all win from good public transport that\u2019s run for a public good. Even the people who love their cars and want to drive their cars and they\u2019re so close\u2014they\u2019re so close in picking those five countries with the best roads, they almost got it. Because those five countries have the sort of transport policies that the Green Party\u2019s talking about, so if you want good roads you need really excellent public transport. You need excellent safe walking and cycling, You want slow speed limits in your residential areas, so your kids can walk and cycle to school and actually have some car-free areas, because that\u2019s actually good for the businesses down there. And we\u2019re going to have, thankfully, the opportunity for public ownership and public operation of public transport services so that can be run for public good and the people working in that sector can have well-paid jobs, because that\u2019s how you get a workforce of trained people who are there and able to run the services and you don\u2019t have a whole heap of cancellations like we had in the last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat would be even better and a really good reason\u2014if the members in the National Party actually care about competition, having private ownership of bus depots and the vehicles is a barrier to competition. If you want to have better competition, it was one of the private operators came to me and he was telling me about Perth. He was from Perth and what they have done in Perth is they weren\u2019t getting enough competition so they said automatically whoever wins the contract gets the right to use the depot, because private ownership of a depot is a barrier to entry for new operators. So if you want to have an efficient, well-run public transport service that\u2019s working well for people, public ownership of the depots as a strategic asset is really, really important. Otherwise you\u2019re not going to get competition, you\u2019re going to get one tender per contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI can see I\u2019m not convincing them. So I\u2019m just going to stop and say thank goodness they\u2019re not in Government and God forbid it should happen after 14 October, because those people are incompetent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002223e178bb3931420f8b96b67d7d4fbeca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223e178bb3931420f8b96b67d7d4fbeca\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. It\u2019s a delight to take a call on this bill. I was on the select committee with the Hon Julie Anne Genter and my lovely friend Terisa Ngobi, who is in the House tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt was a relief to see legislation come through like this, because what this does is it gives choice and power back to the local bodies. Instead of imposing on them a requirement that they must contract out services, it allows them to decide whether they will or not, whether it\u2019s in the benefit of the people who are paying the taxes and the citizens to do that or not. It\u2019s basically a move away from ideology, not towards it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThat choice has turned out to be a good one for places like London, where they own the fleet and then they contract out the service\u2014but the city owns the fleet. Now, there\u2019s a good reason for that. For the layperson, that\u2019s a huge infrastructure that has to be brought, in the case of public transport. So if you buy a fleet of buses or you buy a ferry, it costs a lot of money, and if there\u2019s only one party who\u2019s done that, actually, we\u2019re all a bit vulnerable to that company that owns it. If the council owns it, you\u2019re much less vulnerable. So it\u2019s a much more flexible system, and it\u2019s one thing; they don\u2019t have to choose that, but they can under this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another flexibility option here, and that is the flexibility of being able to have on-demand services included. It\u2019s another good, modernised move. Nobody should be afraid of this. This is a good bill, and it will make our transport system work much more efficiently. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c74ad84adff84e6cb0843d238a2bbc1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c74ad84adff84e6cb0843d238a2bbc1e\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E I wasn\u2019t going to take call on this bill, but being lectured by Julie Anne Genter about the evils of American hedge funds investing in transport in New Zealand actually requires someone to stand up for Americans, even if she doesn\u2019t want to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve looked at this bill and it\u2019s really clear this is all about ideology. So we\u2019ve got councils being told that they\u2019re not capable of running water services and now they\u2019re going to run bus services. We\u2019ve got councils now being told that when they want to take over a bus service or run their own bus service, they won\u2019t have to have any competition, they won\u2019t have to cost it out, they won\u2019t have to see what is the best deal for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo I would say to these people on the other side of the House who are ramming this bill through under urgency\u2014I mean it\u2019s almost midnight; we\u2019re going to have another midnight session tomorrow night because they want to shove everything through before this election, because they don\u2019t think that they\u2019re going to be around to do anything after it. When I look at them and say, \u201CHave they ever actually contracted anyone to paint a house for them or build a house?\u201D Or do they just go to whoever it is that they know and say, \u201CJust paint it and I\u2019ll pay whatever it is\u201D? Don\u2019t they get a quote? Don\u2019t they even get an estimate? Or do they just say, \u201CWell, it\u2019s other people\u2019s money. It\u2019s ratepayers\u2019 money. It\u2019s all free. Nobody has to pay for it. It\u2019s all free. We\u2019ll just do that, shall we?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWell, actually, it\u2019s nice to think that, you know, some councils might want to set up their own company to run a bus transport company\u2014they\u2019re stopping them doing it now. But what they\u2019re saying in this bill\u2014shoving through in urgency, a bill that\u2019s all about removing competition, removing innovation. And he\u2019s talked to the submissions from, say, Uber, who I\u2019m sure most of us have used for their transport services: on time, we want it, no fuss, and using technology to bring about a much more friendly service for people. Why are they against it? Because they say it\u2019s going to stifle innovation. And are they right? Yes, they are right, because they are actually leaders in innovation, transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe know that in New Zealand there are cars that are the un-driven\u2014or the driverless cars are being trialled at the moment by some of the car manufacturers. We know that there are driverless buses and trains being trialled elsewhere around the world. These are things that are actually coming to us, and local councils are now going to be in charge of putting these in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EYou actually need the people who know about transport to be in charge of transport. You want the people who know about bus services running them, getting schedules on time, who turn up no matter what\u2014I don\u2019t know, these people called \u201Cbus companies\u201D who actually know about running buses, who know about what\u2019s needed to maintain buses, what\u2019s needed to have the right staff in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAgain, this is just another effect of a Government that has been so anti-immigrant, so anti - bus drivers coming to this country, so xenophobic on everything possible, and only now have suddenly rushed around and got some bus drivers. This is a Government that actually doesn\u2019t want competition\u2014the labour force either\u2014and that\u2019s part of what they\u2019re doing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo, tell me, where\u2019s their public transport when we have, in Auckland, as we know, Fullers, who are running the ferry services, having had to say they can\u2019t get enough staff so they\u2019re having to close down some services. Is anyone here seriously going to tell me that Auckland Council or Auckland Transport\u2019s going to suddenly find or magic up all these ferry staff? Are they actually\u2014where are they going to come from? The fact is it\u2019s simply not possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is really important that we have competition. It\u2019s like we don\u2019t have one set price for food, or one set price for anything because if we do, as has happened in other centrally planned economies, we end up with not enough of what\u2019s needed, or lots of things that nobody wants and nothing of what people get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a reason Government should keep out of this stuff, and that\u2019s because they\u2019re incompetent. It\u2019s a Government that\u2019s the least competent Government I\u2019ve ever seen. We\u2019ve had six years of central planning and no delivery. This is just another example of a useless Government bill that, yet again, we\u2019re going to have to overturn after the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6847ad0a51848b8b5c5045796b45b2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6847ad0a51848b8b5c5045796b45b2d\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. That was a bizarre contribution, but it is quite late at night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe primary driver, obviously, for this piece of legislation is that the Public Transport Operating Model simply hasn\u2019t worked. It\u2019s been an unmitigated disaster, it is market failure, and it requires the State to step in and fix it. On that reason, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6be69da9d4e4cb9a0ae205ed6bd65c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6be69da9d4e4cb9a0ae205ed6bd65c2\u0022\u003ESTEPH LEWIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. It\u2019s my pleasure to rise and take a short call this evening. In Whanganui, we used to have trams that went the length and breadth of our beautiful city, but we don\u2019t have those any more. We do have Mabel still, she goes along the awa front, but we need our public transport system to be rebuilt. We need strong public transport networks, and we\u2019ve finally got advocates in Whanganui who are helping to do that in Anthonie Tonnon. So to honour the work that he has done to advocate for public transport in Whanganui, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022575d6299729244e7be0f5c8be27a1cf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022575d6299729244e7be0f5c8be27a1cf6\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, my first pitch, actually, is to Auckland Transport, but seeing we\u2019re talking the land transport regulation, it would be great if they could put another bus on, on Gowing Drive, to get our school kids there. The current buses are packed full. So that\u2019s just a bit of a request to Auckland Transport on behalf of my constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d2321d5f575445da96fcc7dbb8b8864\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Are you sure they\u2019re listening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6c20870e4b4417a9792aedf8b209edf\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I hope they are listening, actually. Actually, they won\u2019t be at this time of night\u2014sad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnyway, the idea that somehow removing competition and sending public transport back to councils to organise makes absolutely no sense. I think it\u2019s one of the reasons amongst many that this Government is not only rushing this through urgency, but it\u2019s probably delighted that it\u2019s 10 to midnight so that people don\u2019t understand, again, the core concept that they are removing what is a competitive contractual space back in-house. It just sort of reflects this centralising mind set. The strange thing about it is I think it\u2019s not going to make public transport any more efficient, but this speech is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddfb8b2d46c246b88ea86507d3a21bbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddfb8b2d46c246b88ea86507d3a21bbf\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on this bill, the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s a good bill because the Public Transport Operating Model doesn\u2019t work and it needs to be put in the bin. This bill puts it in that place. This is a bill that also is about increasing those things that we think there should be more of in our public transport system like better wages for the bus drivers and choices to be made about how sustainable these can be. So with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed112ac2e74147a28a024e50ce1825e0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport Management (Regulation of Public Transport) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001385\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd0609363d1343f1a0a10a2009c92077\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd0609363d1343f1a0a10a2009c92077\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e27172d48b9446139d581f9c2091da58\u0022\u003ELocal Government Electoral Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022276d8f219e75484585c0647cfe00759d\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002282a810eaa8a14888982b2f1e67226548\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282a810eaa8a14888982b2f1e67226548\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the committee of the whole House on the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill that it consider and, if it thinks fit, adopt the amendments in my name set out in Supplementary Order Paper 367.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fcd2ff2bed5846c1bef7caa5f08bcb07\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001390\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228d37440883114cb29e396bf3e724be9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d37440883114cb29e396bf3e724be9b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9c706f06379402b8992fd1d77297bb7\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022661cde966aeb4cef96098288dab88281\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecbf32983ec34c48ba483466a581edad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecbf32983ec34c48ba483466a581edad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we are in committee on the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill. We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 33\u2014Amendments to Local Electoral Act 2001\u2014and Schedules 1 and 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00226b3388ddd458403386b3afa139c113c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b3388ddd458403386b3afa139c113c1\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc9d2705d6a547378de28fd8acf5c39d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc9d2705d6a547378de28fd8acf5c39d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Are there any objections? There are none. The question is that Parts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022f32f54ec969646ca8900f645eda5e39b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f32f54ec969646ca8900f645eda5e39b\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. At this late hour of the day, we are considering the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill. There\u2019s not a huge amount in it, but I think it would be worth hearing from the Minister a bit of explanation around some of the provisions, and I suppose I might as well start with a locally focused question to the extent that it relates to Auckland Council and the ability for council to set its own number of councillors up to a certain limit\u2014I think I have read 29, it would be, compared with the current 20. So I\u2019m wondering if the Minister can explain for the committee\u2019s benefit what the reasoning is there as compared with the legislation that set up Auckland Council in a very specific way, presumably for a specific reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00227a3096acb0704c82ac4ce25d3a019924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a3096acb0704c82ac4ce25d3a019924\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question\u2014they\u2019re always considered and well articulated. Auckland Council is the only council in the country that doesn\u2019t determine its own number of councillors. It was set up that way in the legislation, but it was an anomaly at the time. I express no opinion or view on the number of councillors that\u2019s appropriate for them, but that\u2019s as it should be. It should be up to them to determine whether their current number of councillors is appropriate for the size of the jurisdiction that the council represents, just like every other council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00224e9af635cbe341f08863c1f5448d382a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e9af635cbe341f08863c1f5448d382a\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the Minister for his engagement on that particular point. I put it to the Minister and the committee that whether there should be more or fewer councillors probably depends on who we\u2019re talking about. We\u2019ve all got our favourites and whatever the opposite of a favourite is in that regard. But, actually, I would say that we\u2019ve got a lot of good representatives in local government in Auckland and indeed across the country\u2014some better than others, of course. But the system design\u2014I think the Minister makes a fair point regarding the consistency of the way that the structure is determined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn relation to the M\u0101ori wards element, I note that this is essentially confirmation of a discussion and a policy\u2014indeed, a law\u2014that was set out previously in relation to what was then the upcoming local election in 2022, it must have been. And the change, of course, was not in relation to whether M\u0101ori wards could be created but the removal of a requirement for a referendum. I do remember some of the arguments that were made on both sides at the time, and I presume that those still more or less apply, again, on both sides of the argument. But I do wonder if the Minister can explain to the committee the requirement that at each six-yearly interval, the question must be continued to be revisited, notwithstanding the answer might have been \u201Cno\u201D previously, and whether that requirement to revisit every six years applies if M\u0101ori wards are established. That is to say, will they need to consider every six years whether they should be disestablished? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00224a7dc86060794683a84127e394b80c53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a7dc86060794683a84127e394b80c53\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E So every council is required to do a representation review every six years. At the moment, now that M\u0101ori wards are an option for councils, they don\u2019t have to consider whether they, alongside all the other considerations that are in place, need to be considered. So we\u2019re just putting that in there. It is not a requirement for councils to have M\u0101ori wards, I want to be really clear on that. That is a local decision. It\u2019s not something that the Government is proposing to impose on councils, but we\u2019re saying that, if every six years they have to consider all other aspects of representation, now that M\u0101ori wards are a thing they should also consider those alongside the other matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b699d0f7553149418ba0c7f873e3ad7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b699d0f7553149418ba0c7f873e3ad7f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. I will resume the Chair at 9 a.m. tomorrow morning. This committee is suspended. P\u014D m\u0101rie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 11.58 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308224137a97740114c399308b41a1b439c14001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022287aa7a632534246930f1dab09ba9b67\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 AUGUST 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1cddd6b5e074c91a03532298aa5e195\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 24 August 2023)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267929d46133c4e5abef81145f2952ced\u0022\u003ELocal Government Electoral Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222315e5cd7c2345158d23a9da1868e4fe\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc9f40a50dd64a2f9a1b594ba2bd4d92\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00226f3c3cd806404073a2b581140a32dcc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f3c3cd806404073a2b581140a32dcc8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning. Ata m\u0101rie, members. The committee resumes its consideration of the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill. The question is that Parts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part. I see members are so keen to take a call, especially after the 12 a.m. finish last night! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe question is that Golriz Ghahraman\u2019s amendments to the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 358, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 397, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ad095e9c5a0e42ebad826f5597d02696\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8c7ca68e3a9442da0620bc18ef67231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8c7ca68e3a9442da0620bc18ef67231\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 367 and 358 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e3cda93f6a840588bef6f536daacbff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb13eada9a3b42839586620241664381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb13eada9a3b42839586620241664381\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Golriz Ghahraman\u2019s amendment to insert new Part 1A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 263 is ruled out of order as being outside the scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229f3f2a223d264d28946a4ab8f88c866e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000011\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000012\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00223552b3b491c24f0d94f7eabb24b5b756\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223552b3b491c24f0d94f7eabb24b5b756\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee has considered the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ede14ad572754a70b30cc27ccffb0c4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ede14ad572754a70b30cc27ccffb0c4c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022141d3fe7fdf24092a824b98d67c7ed59\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022c737f44e51c14d1dbd26dcbad8082215\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c737f44e51c14d1dbd26dcbad8082215\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I present a legislative statement on the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022544b5633e188468d9ad7ad9a2d9fa2e3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022125eff2d0cc64cbdb18dd8db5f50eab2\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EOur local democracy depends on candidates, councillors, and voters. In turn, those people depend on the electoral system to work well. The changes in this bill are technical, but their effect is that the electoral system will be fairer and easier for everyone to use. The bill achieves this by creating a suitable process for councils to consider M\u0101ori representation, giving Auckland Council greater freedom in how it chooses to represent its communities, updating recount rules in local elections, and modernising the system for nominating election candidates. In addition to this, the bill looks at further enabling remote quorum participation, which I will explain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EFirstly, this bill will see that M\u0101ori representation is given good consideration at council. For a long time, the voices of our M\u0101ori communities were not heard appropriately\u2014or sometimes at all\u2014at our council tables. This absence left issues unsolved and opportunities missed. Fortunately, times are changing. M\u0101ori representation in local government is the strongest it\u2019s ever been after this House repealed an incredibly unfair law in early 2021. There are now 34 councils with M\u0101ori wards and 66 councillors directly elected on behalf of M\u0101ori communities. This bill continues that progress. Councils are already required to review their representation arrangements every six years. They ask questions like: do we need a rural ward? And how many councillors do we need? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis bill bolsters the representation review process. The first step to the process will be a conversation about how the council can best represent M\u0101ori. In some cases, that might be M\u0101ori wards\u2014but it might not, and that\u2019s all good. No one\u2019s saying that every council has to have M\u0101ori wards. The important part is the community conversation. With this bill, councils will know to look in their representation toolbox and have a serious think about what\u2019s best to look after their people, and this is a meaningful change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESeveral councils who are required to do a representation review this year are still recovering from the recent extreme weather events. It\u2019s important that they focus on their recovery. To enable councils to do this, the bill will delay the provisions requiring councils to consider M\u0101ori representation. These provisions won\u2019t come into effect until the day after the 2025 local elections. Councils would have been required to familiarise themselves with this process and put it in practice from March or April\u00A02023. As it is now July, it made sense to delay these requirements to ensure councils can engage in a full and proper consultation process, especially with the M\u0101ori community. Councils can still optionally consider M\u0101ori representation this year, and I know several councils are considering this as part of their representation reviews. But again, they don\u2019t have to. That\u2019s entirely up to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENext, I\u2019d like to talk about Auckland. The super-city is like no other part of New Zealand. It is large, continues to grow, and faces particular challenges. Auckland is also made up of several unique and distinctive communities. Why, then, is the council limited to 20 councillors? No more, no less. The law has tied Auckland Council\u2019s hands and stopped it from expanding to accommodate the population growth or to implement M\u0101ori wards. That\u2019s why this bill allows Auckland to have between five and 29 councillors should they choose to\u2014just like every other council in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAuckland Council shouldn\u2019t be held back as the city continues to grow, as Aucklanders deserve fair representation just like everybody else. We\u2019re also making it easier for Auckland Council to adjust its local board boundaries. These boundaries lined up well with the ward boundaries when the super-city began, but now, because of uneven growth, these borders don\u2019t always align. We\u2019ve streamlined the process to help them match up again to ensure communities of interest can remain together. So with this bill, Auckland\u2019s many different communities can be confident that as they change and grow, their democratic structures will be able to change and grow with them\u2014just like every other council in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ETied results aren\u2019t very common, but they do happen. In the current system, when there\u2019s a tie, the electoral office will draw lots to decide the outcome, such as a coin toss. While there is an opportunity for a judicial recount, it can only be applied for after the coin toss. Imagine getting the job in a very public platform\u2014the mayor of the local council, for example. The successful candidate celebrates, gets shown in their new office, gets sworn in at a public meeting supported by friends and wh\u0101nau, then, lo and behold, it turns out that they haven\u2019t got the job. Instead, they have to pack up and go home. These are the kind of situations that the status quo can result in, and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a fair way to treat the willing New Zealanders who run for council. So this bill does three things to solve this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EFirstly, it creates an automatic judicial recount when there is a tied election. Secondly, it enables candidates to withdraw after the deadlock tie if they\u2019d rather not have the outcome decided by what is effectively a coin toss. Finally, it slows down the first meeting process so that no one is sworn in until after the recounts are completed. These changes mean candidates will have certainty about whether they\u2019ve got the job, and members of the public will have certainty as to who has been elected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also modernised our nomination system. As it stands, candidates need to give written consent to be nominated for local elections. Electronic nominations are allowed in other parts of the law, like when candidates are overseas or in parliamentary elections. Therefore, we are expanding this ability so it is clear that candidates can always be nominated electronically in local elections, making another step in the process much simpler.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill will also permanently enable remote participants in council meetings to count towards quorum. Previously, elected members needed to be physically present at council meetings to be counted towards the meeting\u2019s quorum. While councils can choose to permit remote attendance in standing orders, under the Local Government Act, this attendance doesn\u2019t count towards quorum. However, for the last three years, councils have been able to count remote participation towards quorum to support the continuation of local authority business. This was firstly through the COVID19 pandemic and more recently through the severe weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe temporary settings for the severe weather events will expire on 30\u00A0September\u00A02024. I\u2019ve heard strong support from the sector for making this option permanent. It makes sense. Everyone else can do it, so too should councillors. The benefits to making it permanent include allowing councils to meet if travel is disrupted, or making it easier for councils that cover large geographic areas to conduct business. On my tour of local councils, I met one councillor who has to drive 2\u00BD hours to attend meetings. This change will allow them to make a choice that\u2019s best for them and their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAgain, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the people, local authorities, and organisations who submitted on this bill. I would like to thank Taituar\u0101 and Local Government New Zealand, who have asked for these changes, and I would also like to thank Auckland Council and the 19 local boards who made submissions. In particular, I would like to thank the Auckland Council officials who have been working with the Department of Internal Affairs to ensure the changes that impact them most work for them. Finally, I would like to thank the Governance and Administration Committee again for their mahi on this bill. The committee\u2019s recommendations have had a positive impact on it. Working on such a technical omnibus bill is no mean feat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis bill will help our local democracies run more smoothly and treat those who run for office with greater respect. I therefore commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2348f5177d343a3a3fcb5e26d148d8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2348f5177d343a3a3fcb5e26d148d8b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00228c7cc93d34344efb89196e1418e6e8f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c7cc93d34344efb89196e1418e6e8f5\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a brief call on the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill. The National Party opposes this bill. It\u2019s yet another example of Labour riding roughshod over local government\u2014the Labour Government knows best and will tell the local community what they can and can\u2019t do. This is not good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENational does not oppose M\u0101ori wards when they comply with the principles of democracy and are wanted by the community, but that should be a choice for those communities, not a mandate from the Government. While there are some positive elements in the bill that we believe will help local government, we strongly oppose the requirements surrounding M\u0101ori seats. It\u2019s just another example, unfortunately, of a Labour Government that thinks it knows best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIt requires councils to consider the introduction of M\u0101ori wards every six years and finalise provisions that Labour passed under urgency. So a brief call from me, but it\u2019s one that\u2014unfortunately, another example by the Labour Government where we\u2019re considering a bill under urgency, right at the end of the Parliament, and Labour has shown an increasing tendency to centralise things and tell local communities how they should operate their business. We think that there needs to be localism and local communities need to be able to decide these things for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00225059ab931ecc4dcdaaa5cb63e7188429\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225059ab931ecc4dcdaaa5cb63e7188429\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E What an utterly bizarre speech from the member opposite, Joseph Mooney, given that his own community of Southland asked for these changes. The member opposite needs to listen to his community. Coromandel did as well. I\u2019m sure the good Mayor of Marlborough would appreciate this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis bill ensures there is choice provided to councils. It\u2019s a very straightforward bill. Every six years, there is a review and consideration of how democracy is organised in a local council area. We look at the number of wards, the number of councillors, the geographic boundaries, the voting system, and whether or not there should be M\u0101ori wards. It is a choice, and the members opposite obviously aren\u2019t listening to their communities. It will be up to the council to make the determination following consideration, Mr Mooney, so I suggest that you talk to the Southland council, who are one of the organisations who have asked for this. It\u2019s an excellent bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002220296a36661b4e70b581061720b8715e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220296a36661b4e70b581061720b8715e\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think the 12 a.m. finish this morning has clearly coloured some of the debate this morning. It\u2019s fantastic; I enjoy an early start anyway, so it\u2019s great to be out here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI note the Minister said this bill is technical; it\u2019s not technical, it\u2019s autocratic. That\u2019s what it is\u2014it\u2019s actually autocratic. We believe in localism on this side of the House and consulting with councils\u2014we do talk to our councils; I talk to mine. What they don\u2019t want is us telling them what to do, and this is exactly what this is doing, it\u2019s telling them what to do. It\u2019s putting in place that every six years they have to put an agenda item on their agenda through this legislation\u2014it\u2019s outrageous. These people are elected to represent their constituents. They\u2019re ratepayers; they should be able to make that call, not us here. That is outrageous, and to put it up there, I\u2019d have to say I think even saying that they have to consult with iwi and communities\u2014that\u2019s round the wrong way. You should have to consult with your community and iwi, in that order, because the community is the majority\u2014covers everyone, and that\u2019s what they are elected to represent. They want to consult other groups? Fine. That\u2019s fantastic. And should there be M\u0101ori wards? That\u2019s a decision for the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThis is the major step towards making that decision for them. I think it\u2019s outrageous and it shows, I think, in the dying days of this Government\u2014thank goodness\u2014they have a priority of trying to bring this up. It really shows, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re getting such positive feedback in the electorate for us coming into Government. People are sick of the ideology-driven Government and so let\u2019s bring on 14 October and see the end, or the back, of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u002214d5f2225b094fd0be2a9c07144a2d3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214d5f2225b094fd0be2a9c07144a2d3d\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would just encourage the members of the Opposition to actually read the bill. This is a great bill, especially from someone who lives in Auckland. Currently, right now, the Auckland Council is frozen at 20 people in their council, in the super-city, and we are bringing it up to line so that it actually can grow with the population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EIt took us 30 years to get from 3 million to 4 million; only took us 16 years to get from 4 million to 5 million. We have almost doubled the rate of growth in our population and we need the make-up of our local government bodies to be able to reflect that. We need more diversity on councils. We need to make sure that there is an equal voice for everyone in our communities reflected in the Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EBut what I\u2019m particularly proud of in this bill\u2014I think it\u2019s a great idea\u2014is actually aligning some of those boundaries of our local boards to the councillor wards as well so that there is less confusion in local council and there\u2019s more efficiency through all the different bodies in local council. That\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022836b0b810ed948f5ab2afdc4a4526371\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022836b0b810ed948f5ab2afdc4a4526371\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is with great disappointment that ACT won\u2019t be able to support this bill, because as an omnibus bill, introduced under Standing Order 267(1)(a), it deals with a bunch of interrelated topics that \u201Ccan be regarded as implementing a single broad policy\u201D to improve the processes by which individuals and communities are represented through and participate in local government elections\u2014I mean, that sounds wonderful as a single broad policy. It provides councils with an improved process for deciding representation arrangements and makes specific consideration of M\u0101ori representation a fundamental step in that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, the ACT Party believes that all New Zealanders should have equal rights to representation no matter what their ethnicity, and making specific provisions for M\u0101ori representation actually sounds quite patronising in 2023, doesn\u2019t it\u2014doesn\u2019t it? It sounds quite patronising\u2014specific representation, in 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhen we consider how this applies to Auckland Council in particular, Auckland Council already has two permanent voting members appointed as part of the Independent M\u0101ori Statutory Board who sit on Auckland Council, can have a say on matters that affect mana whenua in Auckland, and make sure that if there are Treaty settlements that affect Treaty partners in Auckland, their views are taken account of. That\u2019s important. I mean, that reflects the obligation that Crown has to iwi through the Treaty of Waitangi settlement process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut the ACT Party doesn\u2019t believe that there\u2019s any justification to force councils to carry out representation reviews with the specific objective of establishing M\u0101ori seats for electors on the M\u0101ori roll to elect only M\u0101ori candidates to M\u0101ori seats, because in a city like Auckland there\u2019s over 200 nationalities and languages represented in our city. About 15 percent of Auckland\u2019s population is M\u0101ori, but about 15 percent also is ethnic Chinese and speaks Cantonese or Mandarin as their first language. Of course, Auckland has a very large and well-established population of people who have been welcomed from Pacific Island countries over many, many decades, who make up the foundation and fabric of the great multinational, liberal city that is Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo it seems retrograde, patronising, unnecessary, ideological, almost pathological, the way that Labour is pursuing this divisive co-governance agenda of trying to apply different rights to people because of their ethnicity. It\u2019s almost as if there is some compulsion that Labour has to deliver for a group of elites that, no doubt, exist within the Labour Party as well\u2014a form of separate representation that the Labour Party, in their flawed wisdom, believe addresses some unknown grievance that has yet to be identified as a result of breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, if there were breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi by the Crown which then led to a form of redress being establishing specific M\u0101ori seats for, say, a region like Auckland, or requiring local government to go through the process of providing for specific M\u0101ori seats for electors of the M\u0101ori roll, then we would\u2019ve heard about that. There would\u2019ve been a Waitangi Tribunal decision which makes that clear. But that hasn\u2019t been described by the Hon Kieran McAnulty, the Minister responsible for this bill. There is no supporting legal opinion; there\u2019s nothing about that in the regulatory impact assessment or in the legislative statement, so we can only assume that this is part of Labour\u2019s flawed ideological\u2014in fact, given the party\u2019s polling and the way the public sees them right now, an almost pathological obsession with dividing New Zealanders by ethnicity and race, as if seeing identity first before recognising the person behind the identity is some kind of virtue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWell, the ACT Party says it\u2019s not a virtue. It\u2019s a deep, deep flaw in the approach that the Labour Party and its allies have taken to the way they treat New Zealanders and their individual rights. So the ACT Party will not be supporting this bill, despite the fact that it does provide some flexibility to local government to rearrange boundaries, to reorder their representation in accordance with the population of different districts or regions or suburbs within a region. The ACT Party can\u2019t support it, because of the obsessive, compulsive, divisive co-governance agenda which this bill represents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, fortunately, there may be an opportunity to change the provisions of this bill in the very near future. So while this is being pushed through under urgency today, the people of New Zealand will have their say and have their way at the October general election. There\u2019ll be an opportunity to reverse some of these changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s what the ACT Party is offering the people of New Zealand. Give your party vote to ACT and we\u2019ll turn over some of this divisive co-governance nonsense, and we\u2019ll restore the Kiwi dream. One person, one vote; equal before the law\u2014a liberal, multi-ethnic democracy facing forward into the 21st century, not looking backwards 200 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c91377c8f4e442699ff6a495de866430\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c91377c8f4e442699ff6a495de866430\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E That preceding speech was a key reason why the ACT Party definitely should not be part of the Government post October. They are not interested in strengthening our democracy; they want to weaken it, and they misrepresent what is in legislation before the Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThis bill is not doing all of the things that the ACT member claimed it was. It is improving the whole process at the review of representation arrangements, to ensure that there is a clear process to consider M\u0101ori wards, and that is likely to give M\u0101ori greater representation and voice around the table. But it is a process to consider that and to consult with the community. We need that stronger representation so we better have councils who represent their communities. That is quite fundamental. What is the problem that ACT and National have with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225242db4254064ad3805fe1c8a746fed4\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022774d1bf61d0449fab1386465f31ba6ba\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe other issues that this bill is dealing with are things like very logical things to do in Auckland so that the boards can adjust their boundaries. Auckland is the only council that has local boards. They are a key in ensuring that connection with local communities. At the moment those boards have to go through something similar to a whole review, a many-step statutory process that\u2019s equivalent to a local government reorganisation, if they want to adjust their boundaries. So the bill is providing a simple, clear process to enable that to happen so that they represent their communities of interest. This bill is about fair representation and it\u2019s about improving the processes, as the Minister of Local Government has outlined. It\u2019s not what ACT and National are saying it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt should go further, though. Golriz Ghahraman had two Supplementary Order Papers, with one to ensure that 16-year-olds could vote and stand for candidates. We\u2019re disappointed that that didn\u2019t pass, but we\u2019re delighted that that is now being looked at, and we also need in local government a move to proportional representation like STV voting systems, because it is with proportional representation that you get much more diversity around the council table, as we have here in the Parliament with MMP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo this isn\u2019t sweeping electoral reform. But it is a number of useful improvements to actually strengthen the process which happens at representation review, and the Green Party supports it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u0022af3cc4ef2118476eb2fe168498abcdcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af3cc4ef2118476eb2fe168498abcdcc\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my honourable pleasure to speak on the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill. I came from this world in Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThis is a choice that gives Auckland Council the ability to strengthen, and we\u2019ve heard from this side of the House and also our friends from the Greens the reasons why M\u0101ori representation is critical at the decision-making table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo just a couple of reflections. We in South Auckland on local boards\u2014the M\u0101ngere-\u014Ct\u0101huhu local board; I want to do a shout-out to them\u2014led the way in terms of working within the current system to have mana whenua and maata waka at the table giving their k\u014Drero to us. This bill will strengthen that process. Also, New Zealand is in the South Pacific. Diversity is important for this country. T\u0101maki-makau-rau leads the way, and I\u2019m sure our friends across the House\u2014and it\u2019s a shame that Mr Court has gone. We do not assume, because we know; we come from those communities. And so just a couple more points\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc9bc48be55845b0bbfe7b31c9b48550\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I think there\u2019s a longstanding principle that members can\u2019t refer to members who aren\u2019t in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260120465822d4e078c0af4fdcdf46213\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be8c501b439431b9df5a475ffa42f71\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6cdc4c0b8f848a0bfaf6ef990cee5f7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b75d11c4742144e3bdc1ff5a977f2505\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for pointing that out, but I just wanted to help my friend over there to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn terms of what councils need to consider, they do need the levers. This bill will do that once it is passed, and do not underestimate the strength in diversity. In Auckland, with the low voter turn-out under the council process, this will help strengthen and help representation around the governance table, to have a fair presentation of not just iwi but those individuals who are interested to stand from a diversity background. This bill will strengthen that. I want to thank the Governance and Administration Committee and also the submitters and the officials. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be4f9195c78f458f934be309b903d5fe\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on Simon O\u2019Connor for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u002230f0281386b2474697d4a60ffffde576\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230f0281386b2474697d4a60ffffde576\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Look, that was actually quite a good contribution by that member Lemauga Lydia Sosene as she sat down, about talking about diversity. One of the great things about democracy is that one person gets one vote and those who are interested in standing put their hands up, and if the other people in the community from diverse backgrounds and experiences like them, they get voted on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s quite a novel concept. It started in Greece. It\u2019s been around for about 2,500 years, but the Labour Party has decided, in these dying days, that it\u2019s time to gerrymander the system. Now look, this is not high-level, Republican-Democrat gerrymandering that we see in the United States\u2014thank God. However, it\u2019s tinkering with the system here, and look, there\u2019s that sort of almost quasiOrwellian talk of \u201COh, there\u2019s choice and there are going to be options\u201D\u2014there aren\u2019t. OK, if there were choice and options, this would not be a Labour Party bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIt is a Labour Party bill. It\u2019s gerrymandering. It\u2019s setting a whole set of criteria, and part of the issues too is twofold. One is that this is a change to electoral law. Yes, it\u2019s local government, but, by and large, there\u2019s been a comity across the House. The fact that this side\u2014National in particular\u2014are opposing it should be a signal to New Zealanders that there\u2019s an issue here. It\u2019s not on every aspect of the bill, but significantly for us to oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecondly, this is urgency on a Thursday morning on what is I think, the fourth-to-last day of this Parliament. That in itself should be a red light that the Labour Government, with its far left mates in the Greens, are pushing this through. This is not good form and it is desperate stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, the other thing I\u2019d just add\u2014and, look, it\u2019s no offence to my Auckland Council and local board people\u2014is that we don\u2019t need to increase it to 29 councillors. Honestly, we don\u2019t. The bureaucracy runs Auckland, in many ways, with thousands and thousands of officials in the council. Yes, we have 20 councillors\u2014and to each and every one of them, thank you for what you do for our city. But, to me, expanding the potential expansion of the council to up to 29 persons doesn\u2019t make any sense, whatsoever. So that\u2019s another reason we\u2019re opposing this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut, fundamentally, I come back to the key point. This is a Labour Government using urgency in the dying days of its reign to ram through\u2014ram through\u2014legislation. That is not being done in good faith, and it\u2019s at least another reason not to vote for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00228cc7c77c9e6341ad9e434eeaf8c56ccb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cc7c77c9e6341ad9e434eeaf8c56ccb\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I find it so interesting that we have the MP for Coromandel and the MP for Southland in the Chamber this morning. Obviously, their two councils specifically supported and asked for legislation to be passed such as this. They actually championed and pushed for us to make changes in terms of the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill. So as we hear the rhetoric coming from the other side, I think it\u2019s disappointing the fact that we have two MPs whose councils have actually specifically asked for us to do some work\u2014so we are doing it and we are listening. This is very simple stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe other thing that\u2019s disappointed me was that the other side of the House did not support the remote quorum participation. I think that in this day and age, when we want participation in local democracy, surely simple things like remote quorum participation is a part of it. This is good legislation. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022d119f3b1ed7b41748bbb8c5f35988b4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d119f3b1ed7b41748bbb8c5f35988b4f\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I stand here on behalf of Hinerangi Goodman, who was a councillor that was celebrated after the last local body elections back in 2019. She was elected to be a councillor for the Murupara-Galatea ward on the Whakat\u0101ne District Council. She went in, she had her celebration, her friends and her wh\u0101nau were there, and then she was challenged. There was a recount that had to happen. She lost that recount after she had been sworn in and been there, lifting up her mana in the chambers in Whakat\u0101ne District Council, and she had to deal with the shame of having to step down from that position. She lost by one vote, and it was embarrassing because she had to endure a coin toss. There is no mana in a coin toss, and she had to endure the humiliation of having to go through that process because our situation, our processes through Government, weren\u2019t for her. It was embarrassing, it was humiliating, and she is somebody that is well respected in that community. For that reason, I absolutely support the changes that have been made through here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI commend Taituar\u0101 for fronting up and making the series of changes that they have dealt to us, to say \u201CThis is what our people want.\u201D The Opposition say that it\u2019s the Labour Party that are doing this. They are wrong on that. Local government support this. Taituar\u0101, who are the M\u0101ori that exist within local governments around the country, have supported this. This is a really important piece of legislation. We\u2019re doing it, and I just don\u2019t understand. I think that they\u2019re playing politics for the sake of politics, and I believe that having 66 new M\u0101ori councillors sitting around council tables up and down New Zealand is a really positive thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EAnd there is a perception amongst M\u0101ori communities up and down the country that councils have been the domain of white people for a very long time, that they have been a racist institution which has locked in power for the majority, for the dominant majority in this country, and I find it heinous that the National Party want to support locking in that majority, that dominant voice, into our councils and locking out the voices of M\u0101ori, who are finally coming to the table. I commend this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f41bdfb3f7bf49e5b1f72806b1607aa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f41bdfb3f7bf49e5b1f72806b1607aa2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. In the dying days, in the last gasping breaths of this failed, horrible Labour Government, they are insisting on continuing with their ideological claptrap, and nothing better represents that nonsense than this bill. T\u0101mati Coffey, the member that has just resumed his seat, made a strident case for something that already exists, which is the potential for councils to make their own decisions. But only in the befuddled Labour Party\u2019s minds, filled with their own ideological philosophical agendas, would they consider that this is some kind of technical approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EMy colleagues Joseph Mooney, Stuart Smith, and Simon O\u2019Connor have argued the case on this side about why we oppose it. But there is a very simple principle here about democracy, and it\u2019s only in the Labour Party that they feel the need to redefine democracy: one person, one vote. I didn\u2019t ever think that in my lifetime in the Parliament in New Zealand, members on this side of the House would have to stand to defend the basic premises and principles of democracy in the free world. But here we are, in the dying days of this Government, under urgency, having to do exactly that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe primary point that we object to in this legislation relates to the forced representational reviews and the compulsory consideration of M\u0101ori wards. Now, in practice, this is going to require councils to decide not to implement M\u0101ori-specific arrangements every six years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ELet me put that in sort of a different context for some of the younger members of the House, who may not understand or perhaps remember a commercial practice that used to occur back in the last century, in, I think, the mid-1960s. There was an organisation called Reader\u2019s Digest that used to actually send out invoices to people and say, \u201CWe\u2019re going to send you a subscription to Reader\u2019s Digest unless you tell us you don\u2019t want it.\u201D\u2014unless you tell us you don\u2019t want it! Well, that that practice was outlawed because it was wrong commercially, obviously, just as it is wrong politically to insist that councils do something that by dint of a legislative approach requires them to decide not to implement something unless they decide to do it. It\u2019s completely backwards, and there is a term that that I can\u2019t use in Parliament\u2014about face\u2014so I won\u2019t use that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe do object to this piece of legislation. We do so on the basis of fundamental democratic principles and institutions that have held not only New Zealand in good order for our entire democratic history, unbroken over more than a hundred years\u2014one of the few nations in the world that can claim that proud right and privilege of having an unbroken democratic tradition\u2014only to be put at jeopardy by an ideologically bereft Labour Government in its dying, gasping last days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef49934eb5e547b1892f1250151cd72d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef49934eb5e547b1892f1250151cd72d\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, I used the word \u201Cperplexing\u201D when I talked about the Opposition speeches. I think today it\u2019s \u201Cconfused\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be clear: the Opposition talk about democracy, but they\u2019re voting against better representation for Aucklanders on Auckland Council. Let\u2019s be clear: the Opposition talk about supporting localism, but they\u2019re voting against the council\u2019s power to make decisions locally about ward boundaries. Let\u2019s be clear: they talk about supporting democracy, but they\u2019re voting against a very practical change of allowing councillors to participate and have their votes counted online.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThere seems to be a collective amnesia on that side of the House where they\u2019ve forgotten how we\u2019ve adapted in the last five years to be able to participate online. This is a confused set of Opposition benches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThis is a fantastic piece of legislation. As an Aucklander, I support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a7c735209e724ff5b5c3606e0ba380e8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Local Government Electoral Legislation Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000092\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022771febcd28b04b01bab06a6a8127aba6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022771febcd28b04b01bab06a6a8127aba6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229056b72dbedb46918d39898f7b7443ad\u0022\u003EFuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9be22d98a044274a396ed7ae5757cfb\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e297a8ab356459096e56f790219cc9f\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 14 and the Schedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022151d1c0ba5294a20ace7580ee63f4703\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022151d1c0ba5294a20ace7580ee63f4703\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill. Members, we come first to clause 1. The question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2151a76c89e42fab09ad95957d15201\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I seek leave for all parts be considered as one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221de28b110d87476d90df164bc1aa85e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Are there any objections? There are none. The question is that clauses 1 to 14 and the Schedule stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022123c78f23a80409e844326b54d31cae0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022123c78f23a80409e844326b54d31cae0\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and good morning. It\u2019s a fine morning to be the Chamber. I really have a question for the Minister about the minimum required stockholding obligation, which has 28 days of consumption for petrol, on average; 24 days of consumption for jet fuel, on average; and 21 days of consumption for diesel, on average.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI just wonder if the Minister is aware that after the Christchurch category earthquake sequence, it was diesel that was in very short supply\u2014not petrol, but diesel\u2014and that was a significant issue. When a natural disaster happens, why then wouldn\u2019t we want to protect the fuel that enables the emergency services to function fully? Yet we\u2019ve got 21 days of diesel fuel minimum, which is seven days less than the petrol\u2014that minimum stockholding. That just doesn\u2019t seem to add up. Why was that not considered? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure the Minister was aware of the Canterbury earthquake sequence and what happened there, so I think that\u2019s a major miss, in this part here. So I\u2019d really like to find out what the rationale was for the difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00220147731cf155438597ca81e1269a88f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220147731cf155438597ca81e1269a88f6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I can reassure that member that the minimum stockholding on the companies is 21 days. But the Government will be procuring an additional seven days to have as a reserve, which will take it to 28 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceee2d44baec4f7b8b2d8600ac3fb31b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceee2d44baec4f7b8b2d8600ac3fb31b\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Energy and Resources. Minister, submitters raised a number of issues at the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, which I don\u2019t think have been fully addressed, but I would be really interested to get your perspective. Should vessels with fuel on them, sailing towards New Zealand, be included in the minimum stockholding obligation? Because the refineries on the east coast of Australia are just a couple of days\u2019 sail away, and Australia has a much larger capacity not just to produce fuel but to store it. So, Minister, has the ability for stockholding on the high seas between Australia and New Zealand been considered in the stockholding obligation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, sorry, I thought you were going to pop up and reply to that. I\u2019m not sure if the Minister has been provided an answer by officials, so I\u2019ll ask that again, and then I\u2019ll move on to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a210530932427690d10a7690624656\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is going to batch up the questions and then answer them at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022843de564ff7f43479d5eadd71d9b7d9f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: OK, great. Thanks. So the other question I have for the Minister is: given that this bill imposes a requirement on fuel companies to build tank storage in order to fulfil a minimum stockholding obligation onshore, all of the associated pipe work, bunded facilities, groundwater monitoring\u2014often not just for the duration of any consented facility but for a long period afterwards\u2014it imposes significant additional cost on an industry, Minister, which many, including the Labour Government, have told New Zealanders that it is facing a twilight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, you described in the House, I believe, as recently as last night, a just transition towards a low-carbon economy where hydrocarbon-based fuels will no longer be a large part of the energy mix. So, Minister, one of the issues raised by the organisations, the fuel company suppliers, who will be subject to a minimum stockholding obligation, is this apparently difficult to resolve contradiction between the Government\u2019s requirement to hold more liquid fuels onshore at the same time as the Government\u2019s other policies are directing New Zealand towards using less liquid hydrocarbon fuels and, in fact, making it more expensive to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, would you help the committee and those who are subject to these obligations to understand how these two policies, which appear to contradict themselves\u2014the Government\u2019s swift push towards low emissions, low carbon, and reduced reliance on what the Minister calls fossil fuels or what other people call highdensity, high-energy liquid hydrocarbons. How does the Minister resolve that policy intent with the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df90647f09a44f548192fab934bc5292\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Who calls them that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dc2d8c3089d484c81ad0c653fcd8d44\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick asks \u201CWho calls them \u2018high-density, high-energy liquid hydrocarbons?\u201D Well, the people who manufacture them, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2014the people in the upstream energy industry who get these hydrocarbons out of deep geological reservoirs in the ground, pump them out or have them come out under their own natural pressure via an oil rig, pump them on shore, these high-density, high-energy liquid hydrocarbons, to fuel storage, processing, refineries, for example. Whereas, in New Zealand, these high-density, high-energy liquid hydrocarbons are often transferred by ship to refineries on the east coast of Australia for refining back into refined fuels, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228374b1a754c544019c5f3bcfcfa39c57\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member come back to his question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bc9dced233a44d5badbdeef9628ef24\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly. The question is, Minister, that there appears to be polar-opposite policies that the Government is trying to progress with, moving away from her so-called fossil fuels towards a low-emissions light-vehicle and heavy-vehicle fleet, and, at the same time, imposing all of these obligations and costs on the industry to build more storage tanks. Minister, could you explain that problem, how you might resolve those two policy conflicts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESecondly, Minister, will you explain how these additional costs to the industry are likely to impact on consumers, and how this might add to, say, the cost for a litre of petrol or diesel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022634bcbdd1b7f4fceba2e5562456c0ad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022634bcbdd1b7f4fceba2e5562456c0ad5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In answer to the first question that the member put, around stock on the water and the extent to which that would count towards New Zealand\u2019s obligations, I think we need to think about this as being on the water within the exclusive economic zone (EEZ) and on the water which is much further out, and it obviously doesn\u2019t provide the resilience that this whole measure is looking to put in. The allowance for stock on the water within the bill extends to the borders of our exclusive economic zone. There\u2019s a careful balance that has to be struck between the flexibility of allowing some stock to be on the water to count towards it, and pragmatism. Obviously, if it\u2019s within the EEZ, it\u2019s pretty close to being landed, but, as we know, it can take time\u2014particularly for jet fuel\u2014once it\u2019s landed to actually be available to use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn the event of a fuel emergency, New Zealand already has mechanisms in place for Australia to assist New Zealand. We\u2019re both International Energy Agency countries, so that comes there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the conundrum that the member is trying to struggle with between the use of fossil fuels and decarbonisation and the transition there, I point the member to the words \u201Cthe transition\u201D. Nobody has said that we are going to stop using fossil fuels tomorrow; what we have to do is have a managed and planned transition and we need to ensure that we are ensuring resilience for New Zealand as we go through that. That is exactly what this legislation is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002278caef5dec0e4966a490581c6d103350\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278caef5dec0e4966a490581c6d103350\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, just coming back to this question of minimum stockholding obligation for ships that are within New Zealand\u2019s exclusive economic zone being acceptable but those outside not, Minister, it\u2019s about nine days\u2019 sail from Brisbane to Auckland. There are very large refineries in Brisbane. Currently, the average stockholding for petrol and diesel is somewhere between 20 and 40 days, I\u2019m sure, and this bill proposes to increase it, I think, by just a few days for each. But, Minister, if we\u2019ve already got somewhere between 20 and 40 days\u2019 stockholding onshore currently, and refineries in Brisbane are 10 days\u2019 sail away, doesn\u2019t that mean that there is actually no risk to the supply chain that needs to be solved by building tankage onshore\u2014question one\u2014and couldn\u2019t it simply be resolved by allowing for agreements, even agreements with Australia, as you\u2019ve mentioned, to deal with this issue, with no legislation required, no cost to the suppliers, no cost to consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, you also didn\u2019t reply to my question about what is the cost to consumer. How much is this cost of building this additional stockholding going to cost if you average it out per litre of petrol of diesel? Minister, that\u2019s what taxpayers and consumers want to know\u2014how much is the Crown on the hook for and how much are consumers on the hook for? Minister, I\u2019d appreciate it if you\u2019d answer those two questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00221c495c4e83d04146a99b360ee9cb132e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c495c4e83d04146a99b360ee9cb132e\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question to the Minister is pretty simple: has she been surprised, and, perhaps, shocked, by the actions of Norway and the United Kingdom, who both had curtailed and said they were not going to open up more oil and gas exploration, and yet both of those countries have opened up new licences in the last couple of months? And also the Americans have given the go-ahead for a giant $50 billion barrel oilfield in the north of Alaska. Does that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a12e1473314df7a3764ae3c3661462\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can the member ask a question that\u2019s within the scope of this particular bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b1a9f5093444db98baab9e7dc4fdabb\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is\u2014I am, yeah. So\u2014[Interruption] I think the Chair does that, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223decbbd3158340858af263055500354a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I am the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022029998ca6b2e45ca938ade1c384499b8\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but the Minister was making comments there\u2014gesticulating. So as that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223184da4dd9da4197a2b45ae567ef9f2c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Even if the Minister in her response covers a little bit that you might think makes it in order in terms of being in the scope of this bill, this bill actually doesn\u2019t cover that, so I\u2019m asking you to please\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292831a14999b4653afd20e78c863df54\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m coming to that\u2014I\u2019m coming to that. So given that those countries I\u2019ve mentioned, Norway, the United Kingdom, and the US, have decided that their fuel security is such that they have to open up more exploration, does that make the minimum stockholdings that we hold in New Zealand\u2014does she think that makes that more or less tenuous than would have otherwise been? These are recent developments before this bill went to the drafting stages, so was that ever a late consideration in terms of fuel security around the globe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcf4a11a55c0416591b3e287b0eb6c93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcf4a11a55c0416591b3e287b0eb6c93\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E In terms of those questions and in terms of the member\u2019s question as to whether this is necessary and could we not do this just with arrangements and do we have enough, I point the member to the fact that this is a framework that we need to put in place to ensure our resilience and not just hope that we have that resilience. I point the member to the situation in December when our jet fuel stocks were well below the necessary levels of fuel resilience. What this bill does is ensure that our stocks will not fall below those requirements that we need. This provides the time, insurance, and security to get those additional ships here with much less chance of disruption. These time frames were arrived at through careful analysis of what we needed to ensure that New Zealand could ensure its resilience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the cost, there has also been a careful balance in coming up with the number of days for stockholding\u2014fuel resilience against minimising cost and cost to the consumers. So the average stockholding requirement is based on expert advice regarding the quantity of stocks that are held. Therefore, we expect no new storage is going to be required in order to hold this level of stockholding. Fuel companies may need to change their management practices, but the advice we\u2019re getting is there won\u2019t necessarily be new stockholding requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn answer to the tip of the contribution from the member in the National Party that was within the scope of this bill, the answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9da42a1c6334e2d883ff4b1139dd3cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9da42a1c6334e2d883ff4b1139dd3cc\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00225cf9dfd84f8345988997a8e3f5f24595\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cf9dfd84f8345988997a8e3f5f24595\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the opportunity to ask a couple more questions. Minister, that is a fascinating insight, and I\u2019m wondering where the evidence or advice comes from which suggests that no new onshore storage needs to be constructed, because, up until now, we\u2019ve been progressing on the understanding that more tankage, more facilities will need to be constructed. So this is new information\u2014if I\u2019m correct, Mr Stuart Smith, this is new information\u2014that there are no additional facilities that need to be constructed. So I\u2019m really interested as to where that evidence and advice comes from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBecause what companies subject to these obligations have told the ACT Party is that they\u2019re very concerned that the commencement date on which these obligations come into force, 1 January 2025, gives them insufficient time to carry out planning assessments, obtain resource consents to build additional tankage, additional storage tanks onshore, given the fact that the Resource Management Act now includes a requirement for consenting authorities to consider the impacts of climate change and mitigating climate change. They\u2019re very, very concerned that if they go to a local authority or council and say, \u201CWe\u2019d like to apply for a resource consent to build new storage tanks for petrol and diesel.\u201D, a regional council and an Environment Court\u2014maybe all the way up to the Supreme Court\u2014says, \u201CWell, actually, no. You shouldn\u2019t be building more tanks to hold petrol and diesel, because that goes against the stated commitments of the Government other policy to mitigate the effects of climate change by reducing the amount of petrol and diesel that is used.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, you\u2019ve introduced new information not just to the debate but to the understanding that submitters had, that they\u2019re going to have to build facilities, and also, how on earth is that possible? I mean, if we\u2019re going to increase the amount of storage of petrol and diesel and jet fuel in New Zealand, how is it that you do that without building more facilities? If you\u2019re simply relying on tankers that are anchored up somewhere off New Zealand\u2019s coast, is that going to be sufficient? What calculation has been carried out? Because if that\u2019s the case, then surely a memorandum of understanding between fuel suppliers and the Government would be sufficient to come to that without having to pass legislation that opposes all of these regulations, all of this cost and industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, this commencement date of 1 January 2025 is a real concern to organisations that have to plan, consent, design, construct, certify, and then receive fuel. This stuff does not happen in 15 months, usually, Minister\u2014partly because the Resource Management Act makes it very complex, but also because carrying out designs and constructing fuel storage tanks has extremely high risks. Organisations involved in that need to obtain insurances. They need to be able to satisfy their insurers that they\u2019re actually delivering a design that is enduring, that is going to meet earthquake standards and so. And also they have to be able to satisfy their financial backers, because anybody who works for a fuel supplier company in New Zealand would know that when they go back to their parent company and say, \u201CWe needs tens or twenties of millions of dollars to build fuel storage tanks.\u201D, they\u2019d say, \u201CIn New Zealand? They\u2019ve said that they\u2019re getting rid of fossil fuels. They\u2019ve said that they\u2019re transitioning away from a reliance on high-density, high-energy liquid hydrocarbons in favour of solar power, wind power, electricity.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, how on earth are these companies, which have assumed that they need to build more tanks on shore, supposed to actually comply, have tanks standing up, and have product in them by 1\u00A0January 2025, given the resource management constraints and given their need to obtain financing and then, of course, carry out the design and construction? How is this going to happen, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaec4fb06b2c4ca980ee09db6373cdfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaec4fb06b2c4ca980ee09db6373cdfd\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, so this bill aims to ensure that New Zealand has sufficient stocks of diesel, petrol, and aviation kerosene jet fuel to mitigate the risk of plausible disruptions to the domestic or international fuel supplies and sets minimum stockholding levels as expressed in the number of days of demand of consumption required to be covered by each type fuel during the initial period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just wondering, is there flexibility in this to take into account changing geopolitical considerations? Obviously, there\u2019s the war in Europe, which we have the moment. There\u2019s some other changing considerations. My colleague Stuart Smith mentioned before about Norway, for example, approving more than $18 billion in new oil and gas investments. So there\u2019s some changing geopolitical\u2014fast-changing, actually\u2014considerations at play. Are there provisions in this bill to enable those minimum stockholding levels to be moved up or down depending on those geopolitical considerations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9bb0eb6fdb3461abb206e21a7cabe3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9bb0eb6fdb3461abb206e21a7cabe3c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the question that was just asked by the member, no, because that is not the purpose of this bill. This is about our onshore national resilience, which is what New Zealand needs and, probably, if there is a marked change to geopolitical circumstance, makes making sure that there is fuel resilience onshore in New Zealand even more important. Where we take account of the international geopolitical changes is actually in our International Energy Agency offshore stockholding. So in terms of what\u2019s in scope of this bill, no, there are no changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn regard to the questions that the member asked about the ability to use existing storage and whether there is no storage. That analysis, of course, comes from the Hale\u00A0\u0026amp;\u00A0Twomey analysis, which was made available to the select committee. One of the things in terms of the storage that is available, of course, with the closure of Marsden Point as a refinery is that Channel Infrastructure have made some conversion of the storage facilities there to be storage, which has opened up a number of opportunities there. The legislation does have provision for some exemptions should there not be enough storage. So it has put in place insurance around that, but the analysis that we\u2019ve had with the new facilities with Channel Infrastructure is that we\u2019re not going to require new storage to be built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022a86e7750bbaa4e85bc56e8f6ec360748\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a86e7750bbaa4e85bc56e8f6ec360748\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister; it\u2019s very helpful to clarify that and I do appreciate that. So given that Channel Infrastructure, a private company, is building the storage that would mean essentially that New Zealand suppliers of fuel comply, why is this legislation necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EGiven the Minister\u2019s statement that a private company is building all of the storage necessary and that no additional cost is likely to be faced by the sector, that no additional storage is likely to be built as a result of this legislation passing, or it won\u2019t be needed, why is this legislation necessary? It appears to impose a whole lot of regulatory red tape which will tie up the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, the ministry responsible for administering it. It\u2019ll tie up fuel suppliers in reporting obligations not just to a Government department, which will require the information, but also internally to their own boards, to their own governance entities to demonstrate how they\u2019re complying with it. There\u2019ll be legal costs involved. There\u2019ll be technical risk assessments\u2014all kinds of things involved, by the private sector, in order to demonstrate and to satisfy themselves that they\u2019re meeting their legal obligations. All this has cost, Minister\u2014all this has cost. Yet in response to my previous question, you\u2019ve stated quite glibly, honestly, factually\u2014and thank you for that\u2014that you have had advice that Channel Infrastructure\u2019s conversion of Marsden Point refinery to an onshore storage facility means no additional storage needs to be built. The problem is solved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, this bill is being passed under urgency. It will be passed today, according to the Government\u2019s legislative agenda. There doesn\u2019t appear to be any need for it. It\u2019s of great concern\u2014the cost this will add to a sector that\u2019s already facing additional costs. Petrol prices in Auckland, for example, are already up over $3.15 a litre for regular 91. Minister, how much is all of this regulatory red tape, all of this cost of compliance, going to add to a litre of petrol and diesel? That\u2019s a question I asked you earlier in the session. We still haven\u2019t had an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo here we are, passing a bill under urgency, Minister, at the direction of your Government, at your direction, the Minister responsible\u2014the Minister of energy, which you say is not necessary now because the obligation to hold more stock onshore is already met. How much is all of this red tape and compliance going to add to a litre of petrol and diesel? I mean, Minister, if Channel Infrastructure are building the tankage and the suppliers are going to comply, why do we need this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESecondly, Minister, if it\u2019s an issue of resilience, if we think about where diesel and jet fuel might be required, Marsden Point, Channel Infrastructure\u2014fantastic. But New Zealand\u2019s subject to seismic risks. We have the Alpine Fault in the South Island. We have the Wellington Fault in Wellington. We have fuel storage at Petone at the north end of Wellington Harbour. How would we know that, in fact, New Zealand has achieved some kind of resilience in the supply of liquid fuels when apparently Channel Infrastructure is going to have enough storage? But what about those places around New Zealand which might be subject to natural hazards? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EResilience isn\u2019t just about ticking some box so you can file a report to a Government department and say you comply or fulfilling some legal regulatory obligation to your own company. Resilience means actually being prepared for disasters and being able to respond and being able to restore basic services like the supply of fuel, not just to retail service stations but also to, say, the hospitals which rely on diesel power generators in the case of power outages; telecommunications, as we saw during Cyclone Gabrielle\u2014absolutely reliant on diesel and petrol generators to keep telecoms networks operating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, this bill talks about fuel resilience. Apparently that\u2019s already resolved by the private sector, but what appears to be missing is any additional improvement in fuel resilience around the rest of the country, particularly in the South Island, in Canterbury, the Wellington region, where they are subject to significant seismic risks and natural hazards, and that may very well be where fuel is needed but fuel can\u2019t get through in the event of a natural disaster. So, Minister, why is the bill even needed when Channel Infrastructure is apparently going to solve it all for us? How much is it going to add to a litre of petrol and diesel? And why hasn\u2019t actual physical resilience been taken into account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00226a44a5dbdb304aa280d1566e304ca2b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a44a5dbdb304aa280d1566e304ca2b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I have addressed the why in previous answers. I will briefly traverse that for one last time. The reason why is because it is important that Governments ensure security of supply of fuel for a country\u2014to not leave it to chance. I pointed out, in an earlier contribution, to that member the fact that our jet fuel was below the minimum holdings that does provide that resilience for New Zealand\u2014in December of that last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the member\u2019s concerns around the fact that he seems to be under the impression that everything is going to be held at Marsden with Channel Infrastructure, that is not the case and I point the member to the provision within the legislation that provides a clause to provide for a regulation-making power to adjust obligations, and location specific requests could be part of that. Very much the thinking of putting this together is not only resilience in one place, but what does resilience across the country look like, and, indeed, the request for proposal for the diesel stockholdings is about to go out and geographic disbursement will be part of that. So the member can be assured that it has been part of the thinking of putting together the regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022155dd76992264cefae06c9dd3f09ed1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022155dd76992264cefae06c9dd3f09ed1c\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224ece45566da54c8fa99321f8adf6b568\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ece45566da54c8fa99321f8adf6b568\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to let it go just a little bit longer, but I am listening very closely to new material, and I\u2019ll just see how we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7b88fa80d14483ab791332cd1d90642\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7b88fa80d14483ab791332cd1d90642\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to come back to the question that I don\u2019t believe the Minister has addressed, which is: how much is this regulation and red tape and compliance construction operation going to add to the price of a litre of petrol and diesel? Minister, surely there\u2019s been a cost and benefit analysis as part of a regulatory impact assessment. Surely, Minister, officials have provided advice, considering there\u2019s a cost of living crisis. The Government accepts it. The Minister is part of a Government which has reduced GST. It says it is going to reduce the amount of GST paid on fruit and vegetables, apparently because there\u2019s a cost of living crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, surely\u2014surely\u2014there would have been some analysis of the additional cost that this regulatory requirement would impose on petrol and diesel and jet fuel users, because it would seem outrageous in the midst of a cost of living crisis and affordability crisis which every single opinion poll points to being New Zealanders\u2019 number one concern for people who have to make a choice between putting petrol or diesel in a family car or a tradie\u2019s van, or paying a bill, which is what ACT MPs hear about when we go around the country talking to working New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, you have not been able to provide a response to my question, which is: how much will this compliance add to the cost of a litre of petrol and diesel or a tonne of jet fuel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229fb6c915d367438e8a651c3700423287\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fb6c915d367438e8a651c3700423287\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll repeat the explanation and the answer I\u2019ve given to an earlier question around what the costs would be. I talked the member through, in my earlier answer, the fact that the number of days in the stockholding obligations were a careful balance between ensuring we had resilience for New Zealand\u2019s fuel supply and minimising the cost to consumers. As I\u2019ve already pointed out to the member, this is not likely, and, in fact, the analysis we have is that it won\u2019t be required for new capital expenditure in terms of storage facilities. So that is not something that will be passed on to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe thing that will need to change is the management practices. Again, it\u2019s something that I\u2019ve already been over in the course of this committee of the whole House stage. This is unlikely to have any large impact, and if the member is looking for an answer around a sense, he\u2019s not going to get that. But I can tell the member that in terms of the analysis, the impact and flow-on of cost to consumers was utmost in consideration in putting together this regime. It is exactly why the Government is looking to do a portion of the diesel procurement itself\u2014because that really is the resilience piece\u2014to have there the additional seven days that the member had missed that took us up to 28 days of diesel stockholdings. That will be Government procurement, and it is not putting that on to what the fuel companies need to hold, and, therefore, have that pass-on to consumers. So I can reassure the member that all the way through this, impact on cost and minimisation to consumers\u2014the analysis that we have is that this should not have a great impact at all on the cost to consumers. You wouldn\u2019t notice it in the daily fluctuations in the cost of either crude or refined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022be53aa4a1b544db59aaacf4e1c8cdd6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be53aa4a1b544db59aaacf4e1c8cdd6f\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e4ec98adb41f438882ccb10da577a566\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000157\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 71, Noes 44.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7e6c9ee69aa4cb7a33868a46d494aea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7e6c9ee69aa4cb7a33868a46d494aea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That clauses 1 to 14 and the Schedule stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225d21dce26c884853928b633678123641\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clauses 1 to 14 and the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 14 and the Schedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000159\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000160\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022963528ec3ce24713bf49343284e0ff35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022963528ec3ce24713bf49343284e0ff35\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222181e12a373248809e463958f415d119\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222181e12a373248809e463958f415d119\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b27be8e9567a49adb4988cc9bfa1506f\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d37fa78a7b4c482b88aa2e3fc0116e25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d37fa78a7b4c482b88aa2e3fc0116e25\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e519be92d2411290de9dff23d316bb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bd1a95cdfd546fd8baef64dc0345dfa\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn November last year, I announced a policy package to improve the resilience of our fuel supply. A key part of that package was an obligation for fuel companies to store 21, 24, and 28 days\u2019 cover of diesel, jet fuel, and petrol respectively on average. The Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill will help ensure we have sufficient petrol, diesel, and jet fuel in New Zealand to weather major disruptions to our fuel supply. Although the risk of such a disruption is very low, it would cost the economy hundreds and millions to billions of dollars, and this is something that we can ill afford at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe obligation falls on fuel importers with access to bulk storage facilities. In New Zealand this includes the five major fuel importers, Z, BP, Mobil, Gull, and Tasman Fuels. The minimum stockholding level at the national level is initially set at 28 days of consumption for petrol, 24 days of consumption of jet fuel, and 21 days of consumption for diesel on average. The minimum stockholding levels have been designed to achieve a good balance between mitigating the impact of a potential fuel supply disruption and of avoiding disproportionate price increases at the pump.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe way that the obligation method is calculated apportions the days of cover based on importers\u2019 average daily throughput. The obligation is therefore spread across the obligator parties in a way that reflects their share of the market and what they are capable of supplying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe bill has been designed to avoid unintended consequences such as decreased competition or increases in fuel prices. None the less, we will carefully monitor the fuel market after the obligation provisions come into force for any signs that the bill\u2019s provisions are adversely impacting the market. The bill provides for many aspects of the minimum stockholding obligation to be changed through regulation in the future if changes are warranted in response to evolving fuel supply risks and market conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill. It seeks to increase New Zealand\u2019s supply resilience to disruption scenarios. Fuel companies strive to operate efficiently in a competitive commercial environment which can incentivise them to minimise their inventory costs and plan for just-in-time deliveries of fuel. While fuel companies have generally had a good record of security of supply in New Zealand to date, the fuel supply industry is evolving and demand for fuels will fall dramatically in the years ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWithout the measures in this bill\u2019s intervention, there may be few incentives for a company to hold enough buffer stocks in the country or otherwise limit the extent to which the country is exposed in the event of a major fuel supply disruption. There is no costless option for increasing New Zealand\u2019s fuel supply resilience. However, the potential impacts to the New Zealand economy of a supply interruption would be significant, and that is why our Government has taken action to secure New Zealand\u2019s fuel supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee for their work and consideration of this bill. I believe the changes that were made to the bill as a result of the select committee process have resulted in a better and more robust bill, and I want to thank all those who have contributed to the preparation and passage of the bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002235f46b558c0547bdaa0bedc73d0e5f38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235f46b558c0547bdaa0bedc73d0e5f38\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too, would like to thank my fellow members on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, which is a very hard-working and collaborative committee, and we did give this bill due consideration and we did make some positive changes. While we support this bill, we\u2014as I pointed out in previous readings\u2014believe it was rushed needlessly and it should have had more time to consider things more adequately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EHowever, that\u2019s as good as we\u2019re going to get, clearly, and we support it with those remarks that I alluded to earlier, and I don\u2019t believe I need to say anymore at this stage. So it\u2019s with that, Madam Speaker, that I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8249cb707564578814ca88bab1e449b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8249cb707564578814ca88bab1e449b\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very good bill, done by a very great select committee, so I too echo that. But, yeah, we are a very collegial select committee and we have made lots and lots of changes to this bill, including the way that we look at the average, the way that we want to be making sure that we delay the implementation to give the industry time to adjust as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EThis is a bill for our times when we face disruptions around the world. We want to make sure that New Zealand sees itself through all of these disruptions well. We need to make sure we keep our onshore supply at a level that we\u2019re all comfortable to be able to support New Zealand through difficult periods of time. It\u2019s great to see the National Party have made a huge \u201Cin\u201D on this bill. I do hope for more today. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022a535e2fdbfde459082efeb637851722a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a535e2fdbfde459082efeb637851722a\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m a little bit conflicted as to whether I should actually take my mask off, but I\u2019ll keep it on because I\u2019ve got a terrible case of a cold and I don\u2019t want to spread it in the room.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231cb3482eaf74a7abf03e163ed28b350\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Stay at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221450697fd5e942a7a7780716cf6dcb18\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: So\u2014no, I\u2019ve been tested for COVID; it\u2019s not. But without wanting to labour the time, I just want to actually acknowledge all of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee members and the chair, Naisi Chen, who is actually an excellent time keeper. Although, on this side of the House, we were rather concerned about the rushed nature, having actually had only two months to consider the bill when the bill was introduced in June and it\u2019s only August, and we\u2019re actually doing the final reading. We felt that because it was rushed, stakeholders literally only had two weeks to actually make submissions and for select committee to actually consider, and we felt that there wasn\u2019t the robust discussions and understanding of the situation. That was the very nature of our opposition initially, but we actually support where we have come to, and providing fuel security for the industry is actually what we need to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI was particularly taken by the submissions from the aviation industry, where they\u2019ve actually had several bad shipments, and their explanation as to why we could not actually include shipments that are on the way to New Zealand in that stock counting in terms of the number of days that it might actually take to get here, the reason being that even though it might have been tested on board those vessels, once it actually lands, it could test negative or positive. So they had to actually have a goodquality fuel stock onshore to make sure that there is no interruption to our aviation industry. I found that quite compelling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to take the final few seconds to acknowledge all of the officials: the clerk of the committee, who has actually been absolutely excellent; the advisers to the committee, who have actually provided all the information; and also the Parliamentary Counsel Office for having actually gone through several iterations of the bill, and actually providing it on time so that we can get it back to the House. On that note, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a520f7ce732d402b8aae8d4fb18101c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a520f7ce732d402b8aae8d4fb18101c3\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E This is a bill which is fundamentally about the national interest. Our country\u2014as nearly all other countries have experienced\u2014has been through extreme supply change shocks over recent years, caused primarily by COVID-19, but also other events such as the war in Ukraine and the blocking of the Suez Canal. Those events have brought home to us the fact that we can no longer rely on a just-in-time mentality when it comes to critical parts of our supply chain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill ensures that, for a critical product in our supply chain, we will have greater security of supply. It is a standard and prudent measure that is employed by many other countries, and it will give a range of actors across our economy greater confidence about our fuel supply in the event of future shocks. It\u2019s a good bill; I\u2019m pleased to see broad support across the House. The ACT Party, predictably, is against it, and that points to some of the risks that will occur if the ACT Party is a part of the next Government. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002283eb7175f37e454286456fbb4253c48f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283eb7175f37e454286456fbb4253c48f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E What the ACT Party has to put up with! What the former speaker, the Hon Michael Wood, clearly admits is that the ACT Party is an acronym that stands for the Association of Consumers and Taxpayers. We only have New Zealand\u2019s best interests at heart\u2014the interests of consumers and taxpayers now and in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d5125cef0274cdab10e5bb3b563681f\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what Roger Douglas says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e2c275985874f0d97495e9109406917\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: The member who\u2019s just entering the House, the Hon Julie Anne Genter, former associate finance Minister, points out that the Hon Roger Douglas is also concerned with the wellbeing of New Zealanders. The ACT Party agrees with him. That is why we can\u2019t support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe problem to solve is: is there enough fuel stored in New Zealand to deal with some kind of crisis? That\u2019s why the bill is called the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill. This question came up after the closure of the Marsden Point oil refinery. That was a decision by the private sector to discontinue refining crude oil into petrol, diesel, and jet fuel in New Zealand. Why did they do that? Well, every signal that a Labour-Green\u2014whatever they were\u2014New Zealand First coalition of chaos sent was that there would be an end to oil and gas in New Zealand, and that sent a chilling effect through the willingness of our overseas investment partners and our international suppliers to invest in liquid fuels and resilience in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe Government caused this problem; this bill does not solve that problem. Only the private sector can solve the problem. The New Zealand Government doesn\u2019t refine fuel. The New Zealand Government doesn\u2019t own an oil refinery. The New Zealand Government doesn\u2019t own any oil wells in the Middle East, or even here in New Zealand. The Government can\u2019t solve the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it sets up a compliance regime for fuel companies that the Minister herself, in the chair in the committee stage\u2014just a few minutes ago\u2014admitted had already been solved by the private sector. The Minister herself admitted that all of the infrastructure that sits at Marsden Point has been converted to onshore storage, and that the storage obligation created by this bill will be met by the private sector without this bill even being passed. Imagine that: the private sector delivers what a Government can\u2019t\u2014and ACT says shouldn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe Minister could not say how much the additional regulatory compliance costs will add to a litre of petrol and diesel. That\u2019s what New Zealanders want to know. That\u2019s what the ACT Party\u2014which stands for the Association of Consumers and Taxpayers\u2014wants to know. How much will all this red tape and compliance add to a litre of petrol and diesel, or a ton of jet fuel, particularly for businesses who rely on exporting products out of New Zealand by air freight, or importing them by air freight? The Minister couldn\u2019t answer how much it would cost. The Minister said Kiwis won\u2019t notice at the pump. They won\u2019t notice. They won\u2019t notice in the daily fluctuation of prices. That\u2019s because red tape, regulation, and compliance costs gets bedded into the baseline cost of supplying a good or a service. The Minister wouldn\u2019t notice. I bet the Minister doesn\u2019t even know how much a litre of petrol or diesel even costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s how out of touch this Labour Government has become. That\u2019s why New Zealanders are overwhelmingly going to vote for a change of Government, and a change of Government that includes ACT sitting around the Cabinet tables so we can deliver real change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adf783bab54c45129a5dbdf9486711cb\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c57c27c3324137919cafcc4c4ebfaf\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CBack to the bill\u201D, says the Hon Peeni Henare. Another former Minister, Michael Wood. I\u2019ll tell you what New Zealanders will like: to send a bill to this Labour Government for all the wasted work of the last six years and failure to deliver. Look, what have we heard? Aviation fuel supply to New Zealand potentially is at risk. How do you overcome that? Well, a few years ago, a digger put a hole in the supply pipeline from the Marsden Point facility down to the Wiri Oils Terminal in Auckland. Now, building more storage is not going to stop a digger putting a hole in a pipe, if some person driving a digger isn\u2019t careful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1b703229c984c7b9a155528a5cbb11b\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Jacinda was going to build a new pipeline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e97c483d04b42f190436d64929dbc8d\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Ah! Apparently, according to the Hon Scott Simpson, the former Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, was going to build a new pipeline. Now, I\u2019ll tell you what, the amount of stuff that this Labour Government has announced and failed to deliver, the Hon Scott Simpson, never ceases to amaze me. While the Labour MPs who still hold their seats are sitting there making fun of New Zealanders, and their genuine concern about cost of living, the cost of petrol and diesel, ACT is listening to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe aviation fuel industry, through good testing, through good quality assurance, can identify whether fuel is suitable, whether it should be landed onshore or sent back to refineries in Australia for re-processing. It\u2019s very simple. New Zealand is nine to 10 days away from refineries in Brisbane. Adding a few extra days of onshore stockholding is not going to improve fuel resilience for New Zealanders in any meaningful way. That\u2019s what this bill proposes to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we have to consider all of the other incoherent policies of this Labour Government. While telling industry and telling New Zealanders they should drive less, use less petrol and diesel\u2014trying to shame them out of their private motor vehicles into walking, cycling, and catching buses\u2014at the same time, they say \u201COh no, no, we have to store more petrol and diesel onshore because of national security or resilience reasons.\u201D Well, the main risk to national security and resilience has been the Labour Government over the past six years\u2014and don\u2019t worry, Kiwis will soon have a choice about who they feel more comfortable with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what are the options for New Zealand? Well, there\u2019s a real issue with resilience, but that actually is more related to natural hazards and to national security and to threats over the horizon than it is to how much diesel can be held at Marsden Point. The real risk to fuel resilience, fuel security, and the ongoing maintenance of core services\u2014can New Zealand keeps the lights on in our regions after a major disaster? We have to think about the Alpine Fault. An Alpine Fault failure could be a magnitude 8 earthquake. It\u2019s predicted to be more likely than not in the next 50 years. If we\u2019re going to improve fuel resilience, then the New Zealand Government of the future needs to consider how they encourage more liquid fuels to be held in more places around the country so that, actually, after a natural disaster, the people of that region have access to diesel\u2014in particular, to stand up generators, hospitals, telecommunications, waste-water and drinking-water treatment plants\u2014and keep those basic core infrastructure services running. That is the issue with resilience, and that is an issue that a future Government would need to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we actually need to consider what the costs of that are. Well, if it\u2019s about building more tankage, what Minister Megan Woods told us shortly before is that the New Zealand Government is going to pay to build tanks to store up to seven days\u2019 additional diesel around the country. That may well be the right thing to do to keep the generators running after a natural disaster, but that\u2019s not the case that\u2019s been made in this bill, and that\u2019s not the case that the Government has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing today that only the ACT Party is voting against this bill, unless the Green Party also decides that it\u2019s more important to stick to principle and vote against this bill because they don\u2019t believe in oil and gas in our future, and liquid fuels like diesel and petrol in our future. Maybe the Green Party and the ACT Party can hold hands and actually stand up for what they believe in, even while other parties sacrifice New Zealanders\u2019 standard of living affordability in the middle of a cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party opposes this bill because it imposes unnecessary regulation and red tape. The cost to consumers is unjustified. As the Minister has stated, the private sector has already solved it by building more storage and channel infrastructure at Marsden Point in Northland. There\u2019s no need for this bill; no need for it under urgency. ACT won\u2019t support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec9feec40edb43589d3d996006456188\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec9feec40edb43589d3d996006456188\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. The Green Party is supporting this bill. It does make sense. It\u2019s unfortunate that subsequent Governments over decades haven\u2019t done enough to create a transport system that is more energy efficient, that\u2019s already electrified, that gives people the option to get around and not have to rely on so many private vehicles, because that would mean we\u2019d have a better current account deficit. It would be smaller if we imported less vehicles and fuel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESome people mistakenly believe that if we had more oil exploration in New Zealand, that would solve our problem of petrol in our cars, but New Zealand has never used the oil that we extract off the coast of Taranaki in cars and trucks; it\u2019s not that type of oil. So the whole idea that we would somehow produce oil here and use in our cars and trucks is misguided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat we can do is electrify our transport fleet, invest in rail and coastal shipping, make our cities more hospitable for walking and cycling, and provide proper public transport, just like they do in the five countries that the National Party keeps talking about because they\u2019re rated as having the best roads. The reason top executives\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022619836cba7d34da6a4eed7b464aa8e23\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order, order! I hope the member can anticipate what I\u2019m going to say. In the third reading, while this is a summing up of the debate, the discussion must be confined to what is contained in the bill and not what is out of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090eb9affa504716bf5be979c79968fb\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t believe that has applied to previous speakers. I feel there\u2019s some\u2014no, I won\u2019t say it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a965b2e13da4d11a96408f29481e005\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231878daa99dd4b7493662e26631d417c\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: True resilience when it comes to fuel, true resilience for New Zealand will be electrifying our transport system and investing in a more balanced transport system, as the Green Party has long called for. But that will take time and, of course, we need to start now. In the interim, it makes sense to have this provision and I believe it was well supported at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc07f85a7be846dba99540201f1d4285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc07f85a7be846dba99540201f1d4285\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity just to take a short call this morning on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill. That is it, in a nutshell. The title of this bill does what this bill says it does, right? So it\u2019s about improving fuel resilience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThis bill ensures Aotearoa New Zealand has fuel resilience by ensuring that we have adequate fuel stock. Any major disruptions\u2014although we know there is a low risk of that, however, we\u2019re being prepared\u2014would make a massive, huge, costly debt to Aotearoa New Zealand, in the millions and billions of dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThis bill is about looking after New Zealand, it\u2019s about looking after New Zealanders\u2014that\u2019s what we do on this side of the House, that\u2019s what the Labour Government does: it plans and it supports all New Zealanders, and it\u2019s doing that by this bill making sure that we have enough fuel to make sure that we will be resilient. It\u2019s a good piece of legislation, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2045796e9404057b66a22f71d1ad6c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2045796e9404057b66a22f71d1ad6c5\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m glad that I\u2019m able to make a short call on this, because the ACT Party was just speaking so passionately about this\u2014so passionately that they didn\u2019t even participate in the select committee process. That\u2019s how passionate they are about this legislation, obviously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ELast week, I was with executives from Air New Zealand who were asking me, \u201CHave we passed this legislation yet? Because it is necessary.\u201D They have been asking for it, so I\u2019m glad\u2014and I love it when you look at the bill and what it says on the packet is in the tin: Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022d27280d7d8854b1f8e945caae07271e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d27280d7d8854b1f8e945caae07271e4\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise for a short call on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill. This is one that National does support. The National Party does support this as a means to increase resilience in fuel supply. Although we did have some concerns about the speed at which it progressed through Parliament and the time for adequate consultation with stakeholders\u2014noting particularly that suppliers will only have until April 2024, after Royal assent, to comply with stockholding obligations and the industry does have concerns about a requirement to quickly invest in new tankage to meet obligations that could impact consumers through subsequent potential increases to the cost of fuel. Obviously, following the closure of the Marsden Point refinery, along with global events such as the invasion of Ukraine, fuel security and the sovereign risk for the lack of fuel security has been identified as a potential risk, and this bill seeks to introduce minimum fuel stockholding obligations on fuel importers to ensure that New Zealand\u2019s fuel security is not in question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI just note that this does underpin the continuing importance of oil and gas to New Zealand. We are a country that is trying to transition to alternative fuels and there are some exciting things happening in my region. For example. H. W. Richardson Group is turning some of their trucks, about 40 percent, into hydrogen powered and 60 percent diesel. They have the first commercial hydrogen production refuelling station being built in Gore, which should probably go live this year, I think. We have Fabrum in Christchurch, which is a small hydrogen company that\u2019s doing some pretty exciting stuff and is probably one of the world\u2019s leading companies in this space. There is Mike Casey, with his 100 percent electric orchard in Central Otago, who is doing some quite incredible stuff with integrated energy systems, electrifying the entire production. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBut the simple reality is that for the short to medium term at least, we do continue to need oil and gas. We need this to transport products to New Zealand. We need it to transport food and other products around New Zealand to keep our tractors etc. going, and it\u2019s quite critical. I note that Norway is often held up as an exemplar of the shift to new energy systems, with about 85 percent of new cars sold in Norway being battery powered. But Norway has also, this year, approved more than $18\u00A0billion in new oil and gas investments to develop 19 oil and gas fields. So I am just noting that this is going to take some time and the reality is that energy is complex and challenging and we need it to keep our economy moving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWe do support this bill as a means to ensure continuing security of supply of fuel in New Zealand to ensure that we keep our economy going, keep the lights on, keep people fed, and keep our economy moving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u002294b68cda659542a284e59eb9627b2738\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294b68cda659542a284e59eb9627b2738\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m delighted to stand to take a short call on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill. As a Cantabrian who was in rural North Canterbury after the earthquakes, I am fully aware\u2014as are many Cantabrians\u2014of the essential nature of keeping your fuel tanks full. So traumatised, I think, were many of us, that all these years later, we still refuse to actually run with anything less than half a tank of petrol, because we know the importance of keeping our fuel stocks available to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ESo this bill is a complete no-brainer and I\u2019m glad to hear the support from the National Party and it\u2019s extremely interesting to me that ACT opposes it. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022872aec5571e643e1b73de759e58ec68f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022872aec5571e643e1b73de759e58ec68f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We do support this legislation on this side of the House. We do so because fuel security is very important to New Zealand and New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe simple reality is that, in geographic terms, we are at the very long tail-end of the international supply chain network that involves and evolves around the globe. What\u2019s worse and more risky for us is that not only are we at the very longest end of that international global supply chain, but we are a very tiny market at the end of the supply chain. International fuel operators are just international commodity traders and will, at times of stress, reprioritise their supply chain priorities depending on need, as they see it, in commercial terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENotwithstanding that commercial operators here in New Zealand will, of course, make prudent decisions to protect their own business and commercial interests, this legislation provides a legislation backstop and a requirement on those operators to do what we would hope would be done, but this provides the guarantee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EJust as an example of how fragile that global supply chain network is, members need only to have a look at what\u2019s currently happening in the Panama Canal: a global hub, where right, at this very minute, there are more than 200 vessels stuck in a queue simply because transit through the Panama Canal at the moment is being impacted by climate conditions, actually. The protracted droughts in that part of the world are meaning that shipping is not able to transit through the canal as it normally does, and that will have a knock-on effect, not only for fuel deliveries but for a range of other trade and supply features around the globe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThose are some of the basic reasons that we support this legislation on this side of the House. We think that it\u2019s pragmatic and sensible for the New Zealand Government to put in place a range of security issues that are prudent and that are practical, but we know also that the commercial sector will do their bit. So, on that note, I\u2019m happy to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u002237054a25d8c9409ba5f99f8571affafe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237054a25d8c9409ba5f99f8571affafe\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We do live in a complex world at the moment, and my colleague, the Hon Scott Simpson, has spoken very well to that. We\u2019ve seen the war in Ukraine. We\u2019ve seen COVID. We\u2019ve seen the fact that supply chains have been clogged. We\u2019ve been subject to serious weather events. I think it\u2019s fascinating, for\u2014and I hope people are observing at home\u2014the fundamental issue in terms of governance is resilience, right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe have the National Party and ACT members with very clashing views on this very fundamental area of Government. I am the most disappointed with my ACT Party colleague\u2014the ACT Party, yes, but too my colleague Simon Court, in particular. He is a West Auckland MP. Mr Court, I hope you have walked down Don Buck Road and visited those families on lower Don Buck who had their electricity go out, who were reliant on emergency services. I hope you\u2019ve been out further north-west, into Muriwai. I hope you\u2019ve spoken to the community on the ground, who want to make sure that we do have resilience as we face these challenges into the future. This is a much-needed bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229eeb185bd7e148e49eac57d3b371c251\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 32; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000230\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002261611cdd08b34391a44146a526d278b8\u0022\u003EResale Right for Visual Artists Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee7e141c037547aba25648218ecdedf4\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000233\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 17 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac3658512ace45d1a3814548247dc67a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac3658512ace45d1a3814548247dc67a\u0022\u003ESORAYA PEKE-MASON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to take a short call on the second reading of the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill. I would like to acknowledge well-known leader and advocate Rangi McLean, who I don\u2019t know personally but have met on several occasions. He\u2019s an artist, and just last year, Rangi McLean was looking to take legal action against a German artist who stole his t\u0101 moko image and is selling it overseas. It is for that reason\u2014and for other artists that find themselves in this situation\u2014that I wholeheartedly support this bill, and I commend it to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u00220d71c8e6bbc749e8a81939949bcbb2e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d71c8e6bbc749e8a81939949bcbb2e4\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you again, Madam Speaker, for allowing me to take just a short call on this, the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill. I won\u2019t take long, because I was on the select committee that saw this bill through, the Social Services and Community Committee, and one of the things that all the submitters said was, \u201CIt\u2019s about time.\u201D It is about time, and that is what this Labour Government does. It listens, it knows what needs to happen in terms of supporting our artists and our creative communities, and we\u2019ve made a real focus on that. I\u2019d like to thank the Minister Carmel Sepuloni for her focus on that community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThis is about making sure that we get it fair and right and equitable. Five percent of the resale cost to the original artist\u2014it should be a given, right? This is already happening all the way over in many places overseas, and so this really just brings us in line with the rest of the world, really. Again, it\u2019s a no-brainer. Again, it is around saying, \u201CHey, it\u2019s about time that we put things right.\u201D I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00228ee83ca4667f4ad58eb0db66a078d06e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ee83ca4667f4ad58eb0db66a078d06e\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E This is what urgency has been building up to. This is the\u2014and I\u2019m sure the Minister of arts and myself as a spokesperson would agree\u2014most exciting bill, and actually, quite genuinely, it is. This is a bill that has been by and large well received by the sector, but I only say by and large\u2014there are artists and certainly some resellers who are not happy. We might tease a bit of that out at committee stage, but National remains in support of this bill overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAlthough, again, just to indicate as I have in previous speeches\u2014or speech, actually in the singular\u2014and in the select committee, there\u2019s a little bit of a concern philosophically on this side around the scheme. But really, importantly, as the Minister knows, this is part of our free-trade agreements with the United Kingdom and the European Union, so we have to bring it about. And to that, and not wishing to delay it any further, I\u2019m happy to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u00227365f84599c74f45b7699d400cbf2370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227365f84599c74f45b7699d400cbf2370\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m absolutely delighted to rise in support of this bill this morning. As we\u2019re aware, artists have some of the lowest median incomes in New Zealand, with very few opportunities to benefit from their work on an ongoing basis, which is pretty shameful. Here in the Labour Party, we realise that hearts starve as well as bodies: \u201CYes, it is bread we fight for, but we fight for roses, too.\u201D Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfe67d4eb72f411eb8570a5a2a46a1a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfe67d4eb72f411eb8570a5a2a46a1a5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022200437ee713940309f3a7e607f459503\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bf0bf58110e4e2e8554e94432a1e099\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedule 1, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4cf271b0000445dbf706e421addd18c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4cf271b0000445dbf706e421addd18c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill. We come first to the debate on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00226e6424cf676d4e559bf017a47b833847\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e6424cf676d4e559bf017a47b833847\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225bab677704dc4791933454763d5db62b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bab677704dc4791933454763d5db62b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The question is that Parts 1 and 2, Schedule 1, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022f95618550ae940699ec8f4b10f9beff5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f95618550ae940699ec8f4b10f9beff5\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Just settling in for a good few hours on this bill\u2014only kidding, only kidding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f25f7336dc8b4e1db8bad8adf1d3a463\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s lots to talk about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224df2339c24574142898e5ae1dbc2531d\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: There is, actually. At one level, there is a lot to talk about. But, I mean, look, by and large, this\u2014as I said in the second reading speech and as the Minister knows better than I do and the officials, to acknowledge them\u2014is part of a free-trade agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, a couple of questions, Minister. One is actually picked up from a speech by one of your colleagues just earlier about the using, in this case, of a M\u0101ori artist\u2019s imagery. Just to be clear, this bill covers the artworks itself, not, if you will, the aspects of that artwork, and that in many ways relates to the purpose too when we look at clause 3(b)(i): \u201Cacknowledges and respects the role of M\u0101ori as tangata whenua\u201D, etc., etc., which is absolutely appropriate. I suppose the underlying question is, there\u2019s the physical, particular visual artwork\u2014the question is, will aspects of those artworks, if someone chooses to use a particular moko in their artwork, be covered here? Are we creating a little bit of an issue particularly with\u2014is it Wai 262?\u2014the use of what is M\u0101ori or Pacific or another culture\u2019s imagery; is that going to be caught up in some way? Will that German artist that was referenced earlier have to pay part of a royalty to the New Zealander because they used an aspect of cultural art rather than the artwork itself? I hope I\u2019m being clear on that\u2014just the difference between concepts and the physical artwork.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecond question is around\u2014oh, yeah, that\u2019s right\u2014the amount of royalties. We\u2019re going for 5\u00A0percent\u2014so this is clause 16. Just for the Minister, if she were to address the concerns of some within the reselling space, who would see this ultimately sort of as an imposition and a tax that\u2019s going to be passed on to consumers in some way, that\u2019s going to be ultimately quite a bureaucratic\u2014sorry, potentially could be quite a bureaucratic system. Does she have concerns there? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESomething I raised in select committee, I\u2019m now looking at clause 20; it\u2019s around the collection agency. There\u2019s a little concern, certainly on my side, that the agency could almost become too big as it sort of self-generates a lot of work to if not justify itself but also an ever-growing desire to try and garner further information. So I suppose the question there is, does she have any concerns that the collection agency could become too large? And, if not, what does she see as some of the ways to fence that in? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd final question, which you\u2019ll be delighted to know, is, I think\u2014well, not think; I know because I read it. The department\u2019s regulatory impact statement said we\u2019re going to pull in about $700,000 a year, which is\u2014that\u2019s OK. But does she think that\u2019s going to be chewed away by just, again, the process of running the collection agency? Does she have any findings from officials or otherwise to give us a bit of an indication of all we\u2019re collecting is less than a million a year? And, let\u2019s be clear, the artists themselves love it, but less than a million a year less the costs of running the system, do we think this is going to be value for money? So just a few quick questions there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00225998ef7165d3489789172cb1f7eff21d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225998ef7165d3489789172cb1f7eff21d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E So there are a few questions in there; I\u2019ll do my best to respond to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EFirstly, with respect to imagery that may be used without permission by an artist, by a business, or by someone else, there are separate copyright rules and laws around that, and so that\u2019s not part of the legislation that we\u2019re passing today. However, I do recognise the concern of the member that raised that in her second reading speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAlso with the royalty, 5 percent is where it\u2019s being set. This seems to be consistent with other countries who have similar schemes, certainly consistent with comparable countries that we work a lot with. So we\u2019re happy with where it has been set. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThere will of course be the deduction for the collection agency that helps to support the ongoing costs of having a collection agency in place. This seems to work well also with other countries. I think the one advantage to being behind, as such, with respect to putting this in place, is that we have had the opportunity over the course of at least a decade\u2014more than a decade, really\u2014to observe other people\u2019s schemes in relation to this, and so have seen what their experience has been. So we don\u2019t have any levels of concern with that. We\u2019re also able to observe their experience with collection agencies. So, again, no level of concern there. Obviously, that will need to be set up and then run. It will be monitored. We have made sure that the Official Information Act can be applied to the collection agency. That was the good work of the select committee in actually interrogating the legislation and how it would be implemented and what the collection agency would look like and what powers we would need to be able to continue to hold the collection agency accountable as well. So we do not have concerns with respect to what that will look like once it\u2019s established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022683fbd63af8f49a89113e82f62ee4a1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022683fbd63af8f49a89113e82f62ee4a1f\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and I appreciate Minister Sepuloni\u2019s contributions to my colleague Simon O\u2019Connor\u2019s questions, to open them. I have got a question in regards to clause 21(2), and it\u2019s in regards to whether each party must ensure information is collected. I guess, Minister, I think of Depot Artspace, which is in Devonport in my home electorate of the North Shore, and Amy and Tere and Nina and the team down there that do an absolutely amazing job in terms of showcasing both cultural examples of some of our leading artists but actually, in a broader spectrum, what is the best of a community gallery\u2014or two galleries, actually, in respect of that place. But can you just give a little bit of context in terms of what are the potential implications for a gallery such as that, around the information-collection aspect\u2014as my colleague Simon O\u2019Connor noted\u2014around some of that burden? Do you feel that that is going to place a significant burden on a gallery like that? Or whether you feel that galleries such as that should not have any concerns in regards to this legislation\u2014that perspective would be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3f60b2e297b421c9db9b0100d6e01a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3f60b2e297b421c9db9b0100d6e01a1\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E The impact on art market professionals was a common concern at the time of introduction of the UK and Australian schemes. Reviews of these schemes show that, overall, the administrative burden is not significant. For example, the 2014 review of the UK scheme found that the median time spent on administration by auction houses and dealers per quarter was 95 minutes and cost around $50 per quarter, adjusted for inflation. Similarly, a review of the Australian scheme estimated two to three hours per quarter, at a cost of about $100. We do recognise, as a Government, that there will be some additional administrative impacts and costs for art market professionals, who will be required to provide information to the collection agency on resales and will be jointly liable with the seller for the payment of the royalty. In establishing the New Zealand scheme, the collection agency will work with art market professionals and businesses to support them to adapt to the requirements of the scheme and reduce administration and compliance costs. The royalty\u20145 percent of the sale price\u2014is also considerably smaller than fees charged by art market professionals through buyers\u2019 and sellers\u2019 premiums, often at least 17 to 20 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00224d6031edde004182bb875be43384db23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d6031edde004182bb875be43384db23\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just a question to kick off to the Minister around the requirement, the need for this bill, and the focus on it being a reciprocal arrangement, which is why, because of our free-trade agreement and agreements\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3942bb84e94c2383ae8495640711b1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member might just need to speak up or go a little bit closer to the microphone. His voice is quite quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d79c3797f344858a47f881421e0007\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll try to speak a bit louder. How\u2019s that? Just a question around the purpose behind this is so that we meet our requirements, our obligations under a free-trade agreement, and the focus has been on it being reciprocal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003ESo I was just going to query the Minister, then, as to why it isn\u2019t reciprocal, in the sense that, in this bill, it sets a 5 percent fixed amount, fixed rate, whereas if we look at the European Union and look at the United Kingdom, who have the same regime in place in each of those territories by way of Brexit. If we look at those rates, the maximum royalty is 4 percent, but then it\u2019s staggered. It goes down to 3 percent for the next threshold, then down to 1 percent, then to 0.5 percent, then to 0.25\u00A0percent, and the total amount of the royalty may not exceed \u20AC12,500, looking at the European Union. So that\u2019s my first question. If this is supposed to be a reciprocal arrangement, then why isn\u2019t it the same?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00225caa68e691ca47b98f6824c9368d69ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225caa68e691ca47b98f6824c9368d69ed\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E Requirements in the NZ-UK free-trade agreement and the NZ-EU free-trade agreement are high level. The bill meets all of these requirements. The requirements are that the bill must be reciprocal, the right is inalienable, eligible works must be an original work of art, the work must be a resale, the royalty must apply to all acts of resale by a person or persons acting in the course of dealing in the business of visual works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo we did have the opportunity to actually set our own threshold with regards to the royalty fee. My understanding is that we did not look into the staggered proportion or percentage that that member referred to because of the administrative burden that that would put on the system. So there\u2019s already been questions from the Opposition today around the level of bureaucracy and potential administrative burden. Having a flat rate clearly makes that a lot easier to manage, and it\u2019s also a lot easier for people to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00224c09c28f4c094334a06e77e2354ad176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c09c28f4c094334a06e77e2354ad176\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the response from the Minister. So I guess a portion of that is around going above and beyond, as opposed to just simplifying. I can understand not using the thresholds, because that is added bureaucracy. None the less, our percentage is set higher, so it is a case of why is it above and beyond? And also the fact that there is, in fact, a cap in those jurisdictions that we haven\u2019t adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00229c87b6475c4d49a6898003a4e1f23bd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c87b6475c4d49a6898003a4e1f23bd0\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, the member is right. In many overseas schemes, including the UK and some EU countries, there is a cap on the maximum royalty payable. However, the New Zealand market is much smaller and artworks here do not sell for the high prices seen in many overseas countries\u2014although we would like them to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ENot having a cap is also key in ensuring the scheme can ultimately be self-sustaining into the future. As an administrative fee will be deducted from all royalties collected, the administrative fees collected on higher-value sales will help, in many ways, cross-subsidise administrative costs associated with collecting and distributing royalties from lower-value sales. Therefore, in line with the Australian scheme\u2014a more comparable market to New Zealand than the United Kingdom\u2014there will be no cap on the maximum royalty paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022033ec3da602b4e8cb9c510f00d191ea2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022033ec3da602b4e8cb9c510f00d191ea2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable\u2014Dr James McDowall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289b23d3434d046ab8961e55c2754c8d1\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a long valedictory!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022905dd639ea3048baa01aecea9e5382ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022905dd639ea3048baa01aecea9e5382ed\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I know. Thank you, Mr Chair. One further question around the setting of the threshold at which artworks are eligible: between $500 and $5,000. That is quite a wide range, and I\u2019m just curious, because the systems are already in place overseas in the UK and the EU, why the Government has opted to take quite a large range there and not actually indicated something a bit more specific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5bcb5336b9a43a89d47c719884a91a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5bcb5336b9a43a89d47c719884a91a5\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E A minimum threshold is necessary because having no threshold\u2014and therefore covering all sales, even those of very low value\u2014is not administratively feasible or cost effective. The bill states that the threshold will be between $500 and $5,000, with exact amount to be set in regulations, rather than in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI think the range of $500 to $5,000 has been chosen because a threshold lower than $500 would, as I\u2019ve said, be administratively unviable, while an upper limit of $5,000 provides room for upward adjustment in the event of future inflation and/or a substantive market growth. So if we put it in regulation, then what we can do is, over time, if we choose to\u2014it\u2019s much easier to shift that threshold than what it would be if it was set in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00229d35d950a5c94ea3afa6913608caa45d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d35d950a5c94ea3afa6913608caa45d\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So just on that, is there any indication that the Minister has, as to where\u2014and I understand that it\u2019s going to be in regulations\u2014as to where she, or the Government, would like to see that threshold start?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0cf8f085d1f4035a68e3eddf17e4780\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0cf8f085d1f4035a68e3eddf17e4780\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E At this point, final decisions on that are yet to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00222967730aa7414d61908ce0ee353728e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222967730aa7414d61908ce0ee353728e6\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Separate question entirely: something I raised in the previous reading was around will there be any consideration for exemptions\u2014or exclusions, I should say\u2014around, say, an artist that has been imprisoned for whatever, whether they\u2019re still in prison or whether afterwards. Once they\u2019ve finished their sentence, will they still be eligible to keep being paid by the scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00227d984e35beb14bd593a9813f347ce1f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d984e35beb14bd593a9813f347ce1f1\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E The answer to that is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002291b3fda078e64aee9283a87e679ead92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291b3fda078e64aee9283a87e679ead92\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 413 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedule 1, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1c064c50ba242bc8032b853005f4ff3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1c064c50ba242bc8032b853005f4ff3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022787b4fd7446f4d608b76ad26d2f464b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022787b4fd7446f4d608b76ad26d2f464b5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa6f8ef5b7a042918806359414116a22\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002211c9174735464f879cd271073c1de584\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211c9174735464f879cd271073c1de584\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIt is a privilege to present this bill for its third reading. The Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill represents another significant step in this Government\u2019s commitment to creating more sustainable careers for visual artists. First, I would like to acknowledge some of the people who have contributed to getting the bill across the line. I want to acknowledge the input of all members of this House, the many members of the public who submitted during public consultation, including artists themselves, the Parliamentary Counsel Office, and the work of the officials. I also want to, as I did in an earlier speech, acknowledge and thank the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThrough this process, I have heard directly from our artistic community, who are thrilled and excited for this legislation as it will make a measurable difference to the way they are remunerated and recognised for the work they do. While this piece of legislation may not seem significant to some, the benefits to New Zealand artists and their families are long-lasting. Getting to this stage has been a long work programme, and I extend my thanks to everyone involved for their input and the work that has gone into getting us here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAt present, those who buy and sell visual artwork on the secondary market make money on artworks when an artist\u2019s reputation grows. But, currently, none of this profit, which is a result of the hard work and success achieved by the artist, goes to the artists themselves. Under the Resale Right for Visual Artists bill, this will change. This bill will establish an artist resale right in New Zealand, meaning a 5 percent royalty payment will be collected each time an artist\u2019s eligible work is resold. In contrast to copyright, this right is unable to be waivered or transferred away from the artists while they are living, and so the right remains with the artist for their whole life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EBeyond monetary compensation, this bill acknowledges visual artists for the important contribution they make to the social and cultural identity of Aotearoa New Zealand. Over 80 countries around the world, including Australia, the United Kingdom, and all European Union countries, already have an artist resale royalty scheme, and we know, looking at these countries, that the benefits of a resale scheme are far-reaching. For example, from the commencement of Australia\u2019s scheme in June 2010 through to April\u00A02022, A$11 million have been generated in royalties for visual artists. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander artists have benefited greatly, representing 65 percent of the artists receiving royalties and receiving 68 percent of the total value of royalties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIt is time that our talented artists receive these same rewards here in Aotearoa New Zealand. In designing the bill, we have drawn on the insights and experiences from countries who have similar schemes in place. However, Aotearoa New Zealand is a unique country with a diverse artistic community, including our very rich and vibrant M\u0101ori and Pacific arts communities. The bill has been drafted to reflect this unique context by including the cultural expressions of M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples in its definition of visual art and through a series of other design features which seek to ensure M\u0101ori and Pacific artists benefit equitably from this scheme. These include the ability for the right to be held jointly, which recognises the social structures within these communities and that M\u0101ori and Pacific artworks often have multiple creators, and the ability for private sales to opt in as artworks by M\u0101ori and Pacific artists are more commonly sold privately than through the secondary art market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a requirement on the collection agency to acknowledge and respect the role of M\u0101ori as tangata whenua and provide culturally appropriate support. As well as receiving royalties when their artwork is sold in New Zealand, visual artists will also be able to receive royalties when their eligible artworks are sold in countries which have reciprocating artist resale royalty schemes. For example, New Zealand artists will be able to receive a royalty when their eligible artworks are sold in the United Kingdom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe scheme will also benefit others as well as the artists themselves. Under this bill, artists\u2019 successors or beneficiaries can receive royalty payments for up to 50 years after the artist\u2019s death. This provides an intergenerational benefit and will mean an artist\u2019s successors, including their wh\u0101nau and iwi, will be able to share in the artist\u2019s creative success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe have heard concerns that the introduction of a resale royalty scheme may negatively impact our secondary art market and that artworks may be sold overseas or on the black market to avoid paying a royalty. Similar concerns were raised when both the UK and Australian schemes were introduced. However, there is no evidence that people have elected to sell overseas or via private sales so that they can avoid paying the royalty. Instead, we have seen that in both the UK and Australia, artist resale royalty schemes have contributed towards an increased transparency within the secondary art market, and both these markets have grown while having an artist resale royalty scheme in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAlongside this bill will sit supporting regulations which are needed to bring the bill into operation. These will set the threshold above which artworks become eligible for the scheme, detail how the collection agency will collect and distribute royalties, and set the percentage of each royalty the collection agency can deduct to administer the scheme. The regulations will also establish a cultural fund through which declined and unclaimed royalties can be used to benefit the wider artist community. Once the bill and regulations are in place, the collection agency will be appointed and the relevant systems and processes will be put in place to enable the scheme to begin operating. I expect this to take between six to 12 months following the commencement of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThis bill has been a long time coming. The Copyright (Artists\u2019 Resale Right) Amendment Bill was first introduced to the House in 2008 but was, unfortunately, not enacted. It was brought back to the political agenda in 2019 as part of our clear commitment to the scheme and to Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s visual artists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe had mentioned a couple of times during the committee stage that this is something that we have to do as part of our commitment through our trade agreements. I want to add that it is not just that; it is something that we actually want to do. We value our artists. We value the contribution that they do make. We want to support them and their wh\u0101nau with their artistic careers, so not only is this part of our commitment through free-trade agreements, it is the right thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Hon Judith Tizard\u2014I think it was the Hon Judith Tizard\u2014who first attempted to do this back in 2008. I am sure she is watching now and cheering this piece of legislation on. What a privilege it is to stand before the House today some 15 years after the Hon Judith Tizard started this journey through Parliament. It is a privilege to be able to mark this milestone. I commend the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222786b8d7390844dc8fdfedc0d93d9b17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222786b8d7390844dc8fdfedc0d93d9b17\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0b041bbdb604e7f9f9a4fda9430f1a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0b041bbdb604e7f9f9a4fda9430f1a4\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Speaker. Look, it\u2019s still no surprise to the Minister in the House that National supports the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill. Look, conceptually, too, as I\u2019ve said a few times, we don\u2019t by and large have a problem with the overall concept, it\u2019s just been a slight debating point within some sitting on this side of the House whether in fact an artist resale scheme is appropriate or whether or not, you know, if you\u2019re going to introduce the concept to visual art whether it should be expanded into the musical and other collectible areas, too. So for us it\u2019s not so much an opposition to the concept it\u2019s just a sense that there\u2019s a much wider discussion that could be had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut this has been, ultimately, precipitated by a free-trade agreement, which we do come back to because this is exactly how we\u2019ve come to this space. Importantly, too, with the timeliness which the Government\u2019s operated in I think this has to be in place by February next year. I could be wrong on that, but long and short\u2014we\u2019re bound by trade agreements to get this through, which actually raises a particularly interesting somewhat constitutional question. I raised this in the first reading speech and, again, it\u2019s not opposing the bill, I just think it\u2019s something we need to ponder: that, in effect, this Parliament has been bound, to a degree, to pass this legislation because of an act by the executive, in this case an international treaty. And I want to be really, really clear for the record: that\u2019s not opposing what\u2019s happening, but it\u2019s just an interesting constitutional quirk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ETo acknowledge the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage, she has picked this ball up quickly and swiftly and brought it to the House and, in a few minutes time, will bring it to resolution. So to acknowledge the Hon Carmel Sepuloni for the work that she\u2019s done as the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage. It would be remiss of me to not thank the officials; I think they\u2019ve actually been outstanding. Their knowledge\u2014if they\u2019re still in the back room or wherever, just to acknowledge that what they knew was fantastic, and as we threw curveballs, various questions, or idiocies, they took it with grace. So to acknowledge them and all the submitters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, fundamentally this is actually an important piece of legislation for the sector. It will take some time\u2014particularly for the professional resellers to provide their processes. I do have a question\u2014well, it\u2019s not really a question. I think, ultimately, this is a classic piece of now modern legislation where we\u2019re giving lots of regulatory powers\u2014I think that\u2019s something that the Minister and, into the future, the Parliament will want to look at, and that\u2019s not disparaging those who will be making or operating said regulations. But again, the primary legislation sets a lot of power into regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs I say, we support this bill, we look forward to it concluding, and we look forward to a continuing vibrant visual artistry in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u002296ceb9a04bda4a89b475ec2475d014c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296ceb9a04bda4a89b475ec2475d014c5\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, a real pleasure to speak on this bill, the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill. I\u2019m going to take a short call but just want to reiterate the thanks for all who have been involved in this legislation. The Minister, who is wearing some fabulous earrings, by the way, from an arts collective\u2014just noting\u2014has really helped and supported us with this piece of legislation in enabling us to get this through fast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe bill does three simple things, and I have talked about this in the previous speeches. It establishes the scheme and it authorises a ministerially appointed committee\u2014non-government organisation\u2014but the thing that we\u2019re all delighted about here in this House is it ensures that those artists out there continue to make an income from their artwork. I think about what it must have been like, say, if I had created a piece of art in 2010, for example, when we would have had the scheme in place, had it not been removed from the legislative direction by the National Government, and what it would have been like for an artist who, perhaps created something, made a beautiful piece of artwork and it was sold once and then sold for maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars and onwards and onwards. I just imagine how that must feel as an artist to see their artwork appreciating and not to be able to benefit from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo, with that, I would like to commend this bill to the House and to thank all of those for their participation, particularly our officials sitting in the gallery for their wonderful work. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022aebbe3f0dcb04033959d22ed863121ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aebbe3f0dcb04033959d22ed863121ad\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Just a short call from me. As our spokesperson on the issue, Simon O\u2019Connor, has made clear: National continues to support the bill. I\u2019ll join others in giving a shout-out to the local artists of the area that I\u2019ve kindly been given the opportunity to represent; I think about the Art in August exhibition recently in Warkworth for the benefit of local Mahurangi College, markets in various places where great artists and craft workers produce, for example, in Matakana, and the Helensville Art Trail\u2014which are all local institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI think Simon O\u2019Connor makes a very interesting point about the extent to which Parliament needs to respond to the executive treaty-making power. Although, again I emphasise, as he has done, that that\u2019s not a criticism of the substance of the bill, nor even necessarily the process\u2014just to note that agenda setting in the traditional way that local legislation is needed to give effect to or ratify such treaties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy final comment is that there has been interesting discussion in the House at previous stages, and I understand at select committee as well, about how to define art. Obviously, famously subjective in terms of how one regards art, as good, bad, or even what has the status of art. Some might say that speeches in the House of Parliament attain the status of art, and to avoid ascribing too greater value to this that would put it outside the remit of the bill, I\u2019ll conclude my remarks there, except only to join others in commending it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1ad2b5be1d94ec3851da65b9b5ed429\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002201e21bf238104415a34e92958e869cb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201e21bf238104415a34e92958e869cb5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Um\u2014remind me\u2014Rachel Boyack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd573b937bbb4d62b72e29105d06322e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd573b937bbb4d62b72e29105d06322e\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I can\u2019t believe that you finally did that to me, Mr Speaker, but it\u2019s an honour and a privilege, I think, for every member of the House! It is a pleasure to take a call on the Resale Rights for Visual Artists Bill. May I begin\u2014I am a musician and have a music degree, and actually it\u2019s unusual for me to talk about my actual area of expertise in this House, and it\u2019s nice to be able to do so this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI could give a full 10-minute call on the concept of patronage, but I won\u2019t\u2014but it\u2019s a useful concept to speak about because actually, if we\u2019re serious about this, artists and musicians very often live precarious lives. They have precarious incomes, precarious livelihoods; precarious work. I\u2019ve experienced that myself, including working many, many times as a musician for free. And when compared with sports and with commerce, the arts are very much the poor cousins when it comes to funding, support, and certainty of income. Many of my friends, who I want to give a shout-out to, live precarious lives as artists. I just note the points Mr Simon O\u2019Connor made earlier around music: actually, we have a royalties scheme for music already\u2014unfortunately, it\u2019s often not adhered to. There is so much undermining of artists and musicians in terms of the incomes that they rightly deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is an excellent bill. It ensures that artists can continue to receive income based on the value of their art that they\u2019ve created, in perpetuity. It\u2019s worked overseas and it will work here and I think it\u2019s a timely reminder to the House that we all have a duty to uphold the lives and the livelihoods of artists. They add enormous value to our nation both here in New Zealand and globally. And I feel, as those of us with high incomes, working in this House, we have an obligation to always ensure that our artists and our musicians are supported so they don\u2019t have to go down a pathway of precarious work. This is an excellent bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00226de489011ede4712983fa9d0a4e28a22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226de489011ede4712983fa9d0a4e28a22\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Like the previous speaker, Rachel Boyack, I myself am also a musician, but I don\u2019t think anything I produce would quite make the cut on the low end of the threshold, so no personal gain from this, I suspect. ACT will continue to support this bill. We support free trade and the free-trade initiatives that the Government has explored and is exploring. We do also understand the frustrations of artists where they see their work, they sell it initially for a set price\u2014it might be a low price, in context\u2014and then in future seeing that being sold multiple times for much higher prices as value tends to appreciate, hopefully, and the frustration that, you know, where\u2019s their slice and, you know, they actually created the work. So we do certainly understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EWe do also hope this does provide proper remuneration in the sense that it does actually have an impact for those artists, because that has been another one of the core purposes of this bill, to make sure that that funding is there, that they are supported, but I do suspect, with the bureaucracy, which could cause some financial impacts, but also with the infrequency of creating art, that the individual impact, the benefit on artists, may not be as grand as we hope. None the less, the framework is there, so we\u2019ll see how it goes. The Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage herself stated that compared to the European Union and the UK, sale prices here are not as high, typically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EI do query the impact on galleries themselves, because this is an incentive to sell privately. Galleries are already quite an expensive way to sell artwork. Some of them take cuts of around 30\u00A0percent, give or take, and so this is an additional fee on top of that. So you can kind of see that this may actually have an incentive to not use galleries and therefore more artwork is exchanged\u2014not under the table, not in the grey market; it\u2019s still official, but, none the less, less tracked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EThe bill, as we\u2019ve just discussed in the committee stage, does go a bit above and beyond, and I appreciate the Minister explaining the thinking behind that. It\u2019s not purely identical to the schemes in the UK or the European Union, but none the less appreciate that New Zealand has had the opportunity to do something a little bit differently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EOne concern, I guess, is the ongoing accountability of this fund, particularly when artists cannot be found or their descendants cannot be found. We\u2019ve got a committee that has almost an\u2014and I wouldn\u2019t want to make any accusations, but an incentive to almost not find the artists, because if they don\u2019t find the artists, then they\u2019ve got the option of keeping that money and putting it in the fund and using it for, you know, wider community work in the arts sector, whatever it may be, which is another issue of accountability. But, none the less, you know, the proof will be in the pudding on that to see just how well that\u2019s administered, how well they go about seeking and finding artists to make sure that money\u2019s passed on. If they cannot find someone, does the person who paid that fee have the option of a clawback? Yes, I know that option is in the legislation, but is it up to them or is it up to the committee? It seems like it\u2019s up to the committee, so will there be some sort of fairness or monitoring of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EAlthough I wasn\u2019t in the Social Services and Community Committee, I don\u2019t believe there was extensive discussion on some of the unlikely but none the less possible issues around income tax and tax across jurisdictions\u2014also, the issue of money-laundering, which can come, unfortunately, into the art space now and then. As I raised just then in committee stage, the issue of making someone ineligible based on conduct\u2014that\u2019s not an option in this, and I just, you know, urge future Governments to have a think about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EWith that, ACT will continue to support this. We do have concerns; I\u2019ve laid a few of them out. It is a bit of bureaucracy, but we do get it and we do support free trade, so, with that, I commend it to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002293258846d3be4b7d94d9781224dfa973\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293258846d3be4b7d94d9781224dfa973\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I just wanted to start my contribution on behalf of the Greens, obviously, in support of this piece of legislation by acknowledging the Minister, the Hon Carmel Sepuloni. I know that she has a particular interest and passion for this and I also want to acknowledge her with her other hat as a Minister for Auckland. Because we\u2019ve seen the intersection of those passions most recently with the likes of the announcement around the St James. So I am very privileged to be working with her on those kaupapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAs many before me have said, this has been a really long time coming, at least 15 years since we saw similar legislation introduced into the House, unfortunately befuddled and obfuscated and ultimately just got rid of by the former Government. But here we are today with full consensus of the House, and I think that that is something worth celebrating. As others have also put on the record, there are at least 80 other countries across the world who have forms of schemes like this. And it does need to be noted that there are going to be challenges and there will need to be ongoing monitoring with regard to the likes of the private sales which others have put on the record as well, as that administration of this scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe Greens would also like to point out that it shouldn\u2019t need a free-trade agreement for the likes of this to be progressing. Once again, the Greens\u2019 position on that free-trade agreement is incredibly well-canvassed, especially from the likes of our spokesperson Golriz Ghahraman on this issue. There\u2019s not a whole lot more to say on this, beyond how fundamentally important it is that we pay the artists who keep the world going around, who colour our lives with so much meaning and offer a mirror up to society to reflect on who we are, who we might want to be, and to offer that critic and that conscience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI also wanted to acknowledge those who have been engaged in advocating, organising, and working towards seeing this occur for a really long time; particularly here, I know that Equity for Artists is an organisation\u2014Judy Darragh, who I ran into just the other week on Karangahape Road\u2014who have long been talking about the likes of an artist wage; perhaps another issue to put on the table, Minister\u2014as well as Reuben Paterson and Dane Mitchell. There\u2019s a number of other small organisations, grassroots organisations, that are also starting to crop up to organise for better outcomes for artists across the board. To that effect, in my patch, as others have acknowledged in theirs, I\u2019d like to acknowledge Dignity and Money Now, aptly named D.A.M.N., who are organising the likes of Basement Theatre, to see that we continue to value this ecosystem of artists, the techies, and the community who ensure that all of us see the best of ourselves and live our good lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThere were points made by other speakers throughout this debate, including in the committee of the whole House, that artists\u2019 works tend to increase in value over time and with their reputation growing. Of course, that\u2019s kind of the point of this resale rights scheme, but it does raise the question, I think, of how we support artists at the beginning of their career when they first are starting to flesh out their craft. Because if we are not providing those equitable opportunities to everyone in this country from all walks of life, particularly those from lower income communities, then what we\u2019re doing is suppressing talent, and that talent is everywhere. So, once again, the Greens need to put it on the table that there are far wider discussions to be had, and I was actually really encouraged to hear that from Simon O\u2019Connor from the National Party, that they may be interested in opening the box on how we can support the artists and creative ecosystem in this country. Rachel Boyack from Nelson just also put on the record about the inequities in how we support, for example, sports in this country versus our creative industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI was just looking at my phone where in the top left, where usually it would say my mobile provider we have \u201CUp the Wahs!\u201D in there. I don\u2019t know how many other members of Parliament will be joining me at Mt Smart, to cheer on the Wahs against the Dragons on Friday. But it really does draw home the fact that we don\u2019t yet have that national narrative conversation celebration of our artists on that same platform, and we should and we deserve to. And we should reflect on the fact that we had one of the largest sporting events in the world in the form of the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup here most recently, with all of the eyes on this nation across the world. We can do and achieve those same things in that creative and artist space if we support that broader ecosystem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228464d2d78f0947c383e97d368abda709\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s have a conversation about the bill, though, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f0ae5e55ec84f99a6e6196336283648\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Speaker, and to that effect, this bill goes some way to ensuring that we have greater outcomes for our visual artists in particular. But there\u2019s still so much more to do for those visual artists, for our musicians, for our theatre practitioners, and for all of the talents and the skills that exist in towns and communities, urban and rural, across this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI am proud to commend this bill to the House, and I am looking forward to all the more mahi in supporting this ecosystem in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022270c7a8125a7405d9a829168a027adae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022270c7a8125a7405d9a829168a027adae\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Happy to take a short call on this. I laugh constantly about the kind of political amnesia that sometimes happens in this House. It\u2019s always good to have a little refresher. Because sadly, as our Minister alluded to, this was actually on the cards back in 2008. We were talking about this all the way back then. Sadly, there was a change of Government. Although we congratulate the National Party for supporting this today, it was actually the National Party that dumped it all the way back then, and it\u2019s made Kiwi artists worse off for more than a decade before our Government\u2014that\u2019s right: Labour Government\u2014have picked this up again and actually brushed it off\u2014forgive the pun\u2014and brought it back to the fore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just do a little comparison to Australia. In Australia, from the commencement of their scheme in June 2010 to April 2022, A$11 million has been generated in royalties for visual artists. That\u2019s right, we still have this image of the poor, struggling artists here in New Zealand\u2014and part of that reason is because we missed this opportunity back in the day, where we could have grabbed it with both hands and made our artists better off for it. Instead, the National Government dumped it. We\u2019ve picked it back up; we applaud them for getting back on the bus all these years later, but it\u2019s our artists who are front and centre of this conversation. We need to make sure, in this digital age, that actually our artists are getting as much benefit of their original art as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI want to use the example from the Copyright Licensing New Zealand website. On there\u2014for those people that don\u2019t understand what this is all about\u2014they give a really good, clear, crisp example. Here\u2019s the example they give. They say: \u201C[Imagine] you\u2019ve created a series of sketches. Eva buys one from you. A few years later she takes it to an auction house to sell it. Ricky buys it and pays three times the amount that Eva did. The resale royalty scheme, when it comes in, will mean that you, the artist, will be paid 5\u00A0percent of the price that Ricky pays Eva.\u201D It\u2019s a stamp on you, as an artist, on your ability to be able to put art out into the world and know that every time it gets reproduced or resold, you\u2019ll get a cut of that art.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI think about all of our struggling artists and I think this is a really good piece of legislation. I wish we had got this off the blocks all those years ago back in 2008, but we are here now. It\u2019s good to remember the past. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b27fcfedf06a408594b8a4390ced3b6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b27fcfedf06a408594b8a4390ced3b6e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a five-minute call\u2014Barbara Kuriger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002265812625cd03414a9e34feb768cbfa26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265812625cd03414a9e34feb768cbfa26\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019ll be a very short call. I haven\u2019t been involved at all in the preparation of this bill but I commend those who have; neither am I any form of an artist. But I am very pleased to say that, today, National is supporting this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022708f87d3962d45248a45f3e29dbf2542\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022708f87d3962d45248a45f3e29dbf2542\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk about something we haven\u2019t discussed yet, which is the use of this by groups that are disabled, or what we would call outsider art. I went to a studio last week called M\u0101pura Studios. I also visited Tui Ora studios\u2014both are in the Mt Albert electorate. It\u2019s incredibly work that they\u2019re doing there. They\u2019re studios where people come, often with a disabled relative, or they come as a person who is disabled intellectually or they have had a stroke, and then Tui Ora is dealing with people who\u2019ve had mental illness, and they\u2019re coming to these places and they\u2019re creating beautiful artwork. And they\u2019re often collaborating with their family to create the art, and the works are utterly beautiful. If you go to my Facebook, you\u2019ll see some from M\u0101pura Studios. There\u2019s one that they created when I was there, and were working on, and there\u2019s also ones that they created for a Matariki celebration that they held at Alberton. This work is stunning, and it isn\u2019t really something that they get any income from in this situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EImagine if our intellectually disabled people creating this beautiful work, and their wh\u0101nau creating it with them, were able to have a secure income for the rest of their lives because of the cumulative effect of something like this. And this little bill deals with that. It allows them a stream of income and, in fact, deals with joint ownership. I met a mother and son when I was at M\u0101pura the other day, and the mother was telling me about the work that was being done by her and her son. Her son had actually won a big award\u2014actually, alongside Carmel Sepuloni\u2019s husband. It was an incredible thing for his status that that had happened, and for his self-confidence, and she was telling me about how her family was going through a healing process by doing that art\u2014that it gave her so much healing herself as the mother of that boy to be able to do that work with him, and to see her child happy in that situation was a pretty stunning thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I hope that that kind of art isn\u2019t really treated as outsider art but is seen much more as a legitimate part of the creative process across our community, and I hope that this bill helps create a dignified income stream, an independent income stream, that recognises the value of these people in our community creating this beautiful art, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u002268f73fac12924bca88c469dd2e409c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268f73fac12924bca88c469dd2e409c76\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take a call. I just want to reassure some members on the other side of the House who seem to think the reason we\u2019re doing this is because we have to\u2014some trade agreement. We\u2019re doing this because it\u2019s the right thing to do, very, very clearly. It\u2019s the right thing to do and it\u2019s a good thing to do. I\u2019ve referred to our living standards framework, which really guides Treasury\u2019s decision making about how we ensure improvement in living standards for people, and it talks about the wealth of our society and individual and collective wellbeing and the role that leisure and play and social cohesion and the arts play in that. So it is a good thing to do. It helps the arts, of course, when we support them; they help us to thrive. It is good for our souls when we support these people. There were concerns raised, and I\u2019m reassured when I hear about the 80 other jurisdictions where this has successfully run\u2014the sky hasn\u2019t fallen\u2014including Australia, the UK, and the EU. I feel very reassured that this scheme is built on solid ground and experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EFinally, when I was the head of arts at a small rural secondary school, I taught students who took what their families often thought was the hard road and went out into the world intending to make a living as an artist. I can remember my own mother saying to me, when I thought I was going to drama school, \u201CThere is nothing romantic about starving in a garret.\u201D This legislation helps us to make sure that if they write it, you know that, for our visual artists like our playwrights and our songwriters, they will actually have some additional access to their rightly deserved income. And it is because of that that I thank the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage for making sure that this happens, and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7f7b8dd328447f78cbd3d25581082e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7f7b8dd328447f78cbd3d25581082e3\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to make a short call on the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill. This is a bill that the National Party supports. As has been, I think, mentioned in a few other speeches, this is required by our free-trade agreements and we support it. I would say our artists in New Zealand are actually quite phenomenal and we\u2019ve got some incredible art in this country and it\u2019s great to be able to support them. It certainly has been a challenging few years for many of our artists\u2014among others\u2014in this country. So it\u2019s great that we\u2019re able to do something that can help them. There has been some differences in views about how resale schemes should be established in New Zealand, but this\u2014we do support this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to take the opportunity very briefly, just to do a shout-out to some of the great art in my area of responsibility. In the great electorate of Southland we have Te Atamira, which was founded only last year as a multipurpose arts and cultural space. This was a vision that Carroll Joynes and Abby McCormick O\u2019Neill helped to drive forward, people who have a deep experience in this field in Chicago and the United States and had a vision for that in our region, which very much was supported by our region. Incredibly, 130,000 visits have happened since that was opened only last year, and in fact there\u2019s an exhibition at the moment that\u2019s attracting a very broad\u2014its locals and visitors who are interested in, I think, it\u2019s 11 different artists who are doing some quite fantastic work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EDown in Gore we have the Eastern Southland Gallery incredibly led by a chap by the name of Jim Geddes who\u2019s a living legend. I\u2019ll just say that has an internationally significant exhibitions of the John Money wing and the Ralph Hotere gallery\u2014one of the largest collections of Ralph Hotere in the country. It has had people from around the world and people who are very well-known around the world who have just quietly dropped in and had a look at it. So it\u2019s not always well-known in New Zealand, but it\u2019s very well-known around the world about what an incredible collection it is. The gallery also is responsible for the development and care of the district art collection which focuses on early New Zealand, Southland, and contemporary New Zealand artists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EJust finally, I\u2019ll just mention, also, the Central Stories Museum and Gallery in Alexandra, Central Otago, which is also my electorate. This is responsible for the main public museum and art gallery for the Central Otago region, and currently, as we speak has an exhibition of Winterstellar 2023, which is an astrophotography exhibition which is their biggest and best yet. If anyone doesn\u2019t know, the Southern hemisphere is the best place to see the galactic core, the heart of our galaxy, the Milky Way, and we\u2019re close enough to the pole to see the Aurora Australis, otherwise known as the Southern Lights. Central Otago is one of the best places in the country to see that incredible galaxy that we\u2019ve got out there. It\u2019s great to have artists who reflect on that and bring that vision closer to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI think what artists do is help reflect us back to ourselves, and help us reflect on who we are as a people and a nation. So they do a fantastic thing. So, with that, we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1f10f93ce5e42f4af2c5fee1254d1ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1f10f93ce5e42f4af2c5fee1254d1ba\u0022\u003ESORAYA PEKE-MASON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to take a short call on the third reading of the Resale Right for Visual Artists Bill. I mentioned, earlier on, an example of an artist seeking action for their imagery, which is covered by other legislation\u2014that is, the copyright and intellectual property. We did hear, earlier on, mentioned by my colleague T\u0101mati Coffey, a perfect example of actually how this works and can work for our artists. Nevertheless, I am delighted that our creative artists and communities have another tool or a lever in which they can stand on. This is significant in terms of sustainable career opportunities for them. It\u2019s significant in terms of the future of our artistic communities and their families and their long-term future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI want to emphasise the words of the Minister the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, and that was her statement, which I think is very important, that it\u2019s not just for the trade agreement that we do this; it is what we want to do. It is the right thing to do for our artists, for our people, for Aotearoa. A tremendous amount of work has gone into this bill. I want to thank all those involved\u2014in particular, those artistic communities across the motu that have worked with the Social Services and Community Committee, that have worked with the staff, to get us to where we are today. I want to also acknowledge Judith Tizard, who was earlier mentioned, who had introduced a similar bill in the past, which, sadly, got voted out. I also want to acknowledge the artists in Whanganui, where I come from, and across Te Tai Hau\u0101uru. I know and have seen some of the struggles that they experience trying to sustain a career and be creative at the same time. I think that this is an absolutely fantastic piece of legislation. I commend this to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ff6ec03436745b798ed2172c51e2f78\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022675f53c2496844c0805fd150dc31cc8a\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8cd7448932e4798868bb97c6cdc11cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8cd7448932e4798868bb97c6cdc11cd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before we go into the next bill, members, when the House was in committee on the Fuel Industry (Improving Fuel Resilience) Amendment Bill, the result of the vote on the question that the question be now put was incorrectly recorded as Ayes 71, Noes 44. The correct result is Ayes 72, Noes 44. The record will be corrected accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d91302deb3d4acc93d85d84b65fd175\u0022\u003ESale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227243a31479f54f889927a6a3bea6cdf0\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000360\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 15 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf5b16113a4b48e1be2c880bbe8e7096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf5b16113a4b48e1be2c880bbe8e7096\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s my pleasure to take a call on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. As the last speaker, I think it\u2019s important to finish the second reading by saying that this bill responds to persistent issues with alcohol licensing processes in the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012. When the Act was introduced over a decade ago, it was meant to give communities a say in the way that alcohol licensing decisions were made in their areas. However, communities themselves have told us that the Act is not working in the way that was intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThis bill responds to those concerns by making changes to the licensing processes. I particularly like the changes relating to local alcohol policies (LAPs), as it will be easier for councils to adopt an LAP, if they wish, and ensures that they are more effective once they are in place. For too long territorial authorities have worked with their communities to develop policies only to be held up in the appeals process. This has cost ratepayers millions of dollars while delaying and sometimes preventing councils from adopting LAPs at all. LAPs have a role in reducing harm and they are an important way for communities to influence the alcohol licensing decisions in their area. This bill will remove the costs and delays associated with appeals and will ensure that community voices are carried through to licensing decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee agreed by majority with the change allowing anyone to object to an application for an alcohol licence, with a discreet exemption for trade competitors. The recommendation to apply this change regardless of the type of licensing application, be it for a new licence, renewal, special licence, or an application to vary a licence\u2014those conditions come in good time. So it\u2019s for that reason that I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002204cce584a26541ddab59f88bb28a49ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204cce584a26541ddab59f88bb28a49ae\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Justice Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f0296c0e58424d0c8051b7e0804de3e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 39\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 29; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022edc46bc45b1c4c65bac08c520a456e4f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 39\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 29; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000365\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002279d9563a81154f68ae6b125532907941\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279d9563a81154f68ae6b125532907941\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260139cf2eb9b4822be52b03e5c8d3db3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022030c55ec090f48408884ccd6b6fda327\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e21e107eb6c647b381a5a1673950477d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e21e107eb6c647b381a5a1673950477d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee for the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00223a92b62c9e1444b4ad7447d1d093234c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a92b62c9e1444b4ad7447d1d093234c\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022777eac09d5fe4f4a89413586b53606b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022777eac09d5fe4f4a89413586b53606b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. The question is that Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc6569978974416e86670d2099c09009\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc6569978974416e86670d2099c09009\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Look, it\u2019s still no surprise to Minister Robertson and, obviously, to the House that National\u2019s opposing this bill. So what are, effectively, three questions from me, Minister: the first is, how is this bill going to deal with existing liquor stores? Because as I read the new section\u2014is it clause 12, where section 133 is being replaced? Long and short, it could potentially\u2014I just want to stress that word, \u201Cpotentially\u201D\u2014hang existing liquor-licence holders out to dry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think, in my own electorate, we actually have\u2014not sure if this is a great thing to confess in the House or not\u2014quite a number of liquor stores throughout the T\u0101maki electorate, and, actually, they are well-patronised by locals and well-liked and respected. But a number of them\u2014using this as the example\u2014are very close to the likes of schools and community centres and the like. And, you know, the ones that are coming to mind\u2014I won\u2019t name them in the House per se, but they\u2019ve been there for many, many years and are actually well-loved and respected, not just for what they\u2019re selling but also for the people that they are. There\u2019s a risk, or a perception of a risk, that they\u2019re going to potentially lose their liquor licences with this new community participation amendment bill going through. So I\u2019m wondering if the Minister can give us\u2014or them, in particular; and too my constituents in T\u0101maki\u2014some surety that they\u2019ll be able to continue so long as they\u2019re continuing in good practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second is around objections. As you read through the bill, basically, anyone in the country anywhere can put in an objection. So, again, a local T\u0101maki liquor store in Saint Helier\u2019s could have someone\u2014no offence to my excellent colleague here, Penny Simmonds, but someone in Invercargill could be complaining about the liquor store in Saint Helier\u2019s or Glen Innes or \u014Cr\u0101kei. Does he see any potential issues there, and whether or not he\u2019d be open to change that or at least put something in to push back on vexatious and, I would argue, irrelevant engagement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd the last is around the new section\u2014sorry, clause 14\u2014apologies, it\u2019s the new section 203A. I hope I can articulate this question well. It is a concern that so many conditions are being placed on the licensing committee to make sure someone feels happy giving their submission, that it could almost become counterproductive. And what I mean by that is everything from the time and the layout of the venue, the time table, the languages used. I mean, in themselves there\u2019s nothing wrong with that, but, to be slightly facetious, if someone walks in and decides they don\u2019t like the colour of the carpet, does the committee have to, basically, dissolve and set things up for the permission of the submitter? That\u2019s where I\u2019m trying to get to, actually. Is the law\u2014and particularly that clause\u2014setting things up so that a submitter really dictates how these events are structured? Because as I read the legislation, they are. The submitter holds a lot of the power, because the committee has to, as it says, \u201Cestablish appropriate procedures to consider the applications.\u201D And it\u2019s all based, after that, on, effectively, the person giving the submission. So yeah, does the submitter hold all the cards around how and where the process should be held?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa84b10a05744ebc966f6aeb4ed45a6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa84b10a05744ebc966f6aeb4ed45a6a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E At the outset, I\u2019m obviously indicating that I\u2019ll endeavour to respond to all questions. I may need a little bit of time here and there, given that it\u2019s not a bill that I have been following all the way through, but I\u2019ll do my best to answer the members\u2019 questions as they come forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd so clause 12 was the first question that the member Simon O\u2019Connor raised, around the position of existing stores. I do think it\u2019s important to note that while this does now introduce a discretion element in terms of a renewal of a licence, that discretion is not completely unfettered. It\u2019s limited to deciding to renew the application regardless of inconsistency, and the district licensing council may only decline to renew the licence if there is inconsistency around location or density in the local alcohol plan, not other matters like trading hours. This change means that there\u2019s now greater consistency between renewal and new licence applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo yes, at a certain level, I accept the member\u2019s point that this introduces something new for an existing licence holder, but what the clause endeavours to do is create a consistent approach. I think the member will know that, as a local MP of some reasonable time, these issues are commonly raised\u2014prior to this bill\u2014around why licences are not renewed. I\u2019ve had plenty of contact from those who\u2019ve had them around their views of district licensing authorities. So, actually, I think the outcome here is a better one that provides for a consistency between the two approaches, but it is limited to those matters around location and density within the local alcohol plan as it stands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question the member raised around objections, I think it would be pretty challenging for somebody to be able to make objections in every case. There\u2019s thousands of these sorts of applications that come through. Really, what we\u2019re trying to do here is strike a balance of allowing more people to come into the process but for the process not to be used for commercial or trade reasons, which is what\u2019s, unfortunately, happened to this point. So our view is that we are enabling community application. It\u2019s highly unlikely that we\u2019re going to see a big flood of objections from people cutting across the country, given the situation, and we do want communities to have the right to be involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe final question from the member I will come back to him on, but, quite clearly, whenever there is a committee set up to do anything, it\u2019s a two-way street. The people organising the meeting have to be able to be there and run it, and the people who are participating need to be given a fair chance to participate. I actually think members across the House would, I would hope, celebrate the general principle of the third of the goals of this bill, which is to use technology to endeavour to find ways to make it a lot easier for people to participate in the public process. So I will come back and see if there\u2019s anything further\u2014I\u2019ll get advice on that\u2014but, from my perspective, I think we\u2019ve got the balance right in that clause as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00226d517d7a729f42519bd1cb0682d49987\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d517d7a729f42519bd1cb0682d49987\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So, just for people tuning in, we\u2019re debating the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. I suppose the background to this is concern amongst many in the community around the prevalence of liquor licences\u2014people both on site and off site\u2014in communities, and the desire for communities to be able to set the rules around how many stores they have and where and the hours and the prevalence of stores. The previous National Government introduced legislation around the local alcohol plans and there has been a fairly slow, tortuous, and expensive legal process to get some of those through, so I think there is general agreement that the current system isn\u2019t perfect and it needs improving. The problem is, like in many areas, in trying to improve that situation, this Labour Government has decided, rather than to try and improve that objection process or appeals process to local alcohol plans, they want to just eliminate that entirely, and then, secondly, have taken the opportunity to make a number of changes to the process around liquor licensing, which we think go far too far, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re opposing the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI want to start with clause 10, amending section 102, which says \u201CAny person\u201D, when it comes to objections to an application. So you\u2019ve got a young couple setting out in life, wanting to open up a new store to sell things, including alcohol, or a restaurant maybe that sells alcohol. So any people may object to an application or a grant of a licence, whether that person is an individual or a group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, in the past, we haven\u2019t allowed groups\u2014as I understand it\u2014to object, and I\u2019d be interested to hear from the Minister what great progress will be made from that. I\u2019d just like to get a sense from the Minister as to (a) what is this going to achieve, and (b) what cost and time is this going to add to the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019re all conscious of the cost of living pressures that we live under and we all have to recognise that every time the Government passes more regulation, that imposes more cost on any process and eventually it flows through to the consumers who actually want to buy the beer or the wine or whatever they\u2019re trying to get. So if you\u2019re moving from a situation where, when it comes to getting a licence, having a fairly restricted group of people who are directly affected by a particular proposal having a say\u2014which everyone would agree with\u2014to completely flinging open the doors and saying that if you want to open a restaurant with a licence in Remuera, it\u2019s OK for the anti-alcohol group from Invercargill to come and have their say, and the particular\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff398d2ea47a402a86cd9856894eb685\u0022\u003EPenny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Please just give Invercargill a bit of a break, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a351592321744d35a9f36f03618c8d19\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, but it\u2019s possible. To be honest, there is not always a meeting of minds between Invercargill and Auckland. So it doesn\u2019t take too much imagination to realise that there are lobby groups throughout the country who are strongly opposed to any new licences, and it doesn\u2019t take too much imagination to think that they could be quite well organised in that process and that they could use this ability to martial their resources around the country in order to make life as difficult as possible and to line up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo I want to know what research or evidence has been pointed into the consequences of flinging the doors wide open to anybody and everybody to come in, and what additional cost that will add to any given process in this sense. So that\u2019s just around that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022defa2732ff2547ca95bb40722af53db9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022defa2732ff2547ca95bb40722af53db9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Just before I address that question, I want to pop back to the last of Simon O\u2019Connor\u2019s three questions, which is that it will be for district licensing committees to decide how to regulate their procedures. So that won\u2019t be something that the submitter has full control over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s actually on that point that I want to pick up on Mr Goldsmith\u2019s points\u2014actually, no, before I do that, we do need to go back to the beginning of where this comes from. One of Mr Goldsmith\u2019s colleagues\u2014I think it was Mr McKelvie in his valedictory speech yesterday\u2014talked about the importance of politicians being able to apply the LV Martin principle: it\u2019s the putting right that counts. I was in this House when local alcohol plans were first being developed, and it would be fair to say that there were some pretty high ideals about what those local alcohol plans would achieve. It would be, to take Mr Goldsmith\u2019s point, accepting some of the differences between different regions and how they might choose to see alcohol regulated within their regions. Indeed, the Invercargill Licensing Trust exists to this day, and there\u2019s a different way of doing it than we already had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat ended up playing out, however, has been a quite different approach, which has actually seen local communities stymied from being able to have the kind of local alcohol plan that they want. So the bill comes from that basis. It comes from the community returning to Government and saying, \u201CYou actually didn\u2019t get this quite right, and now you need to put it right.\u201D That is what has been done here. So I just wanted to say that that is the basis of what is being done here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of how it will deal with people who would be seen by the member Mr Goldsmith as vexatious in their objections or their submissions that they make: in many ways, select committees deal with this every day of the week. We often get a large number of form submissions that come in on a particular bill, and the select committee makes the decision that, actually, they\u2019re not going to hear from all of those people, because they know that potentially they are not that representative of the wider views, or they can be dealt with by one single submission. So it will remain in the purview of the district licensing committees and appropriate authorities how they manage their hearings, dealing with objectors, and ruling out vexatious objections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EEqually, there are other changes in the bill that also will have an impact, even if there is an increase in objectors\u2014for example, removing cross-examination and unnecessary formality in hearings will also likely reduce the length of those hearings, as well. So we are trying to make sure we facilitate real community participation and get a balance here, and I believe that\u2019s what we\u2019ve struck in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00227bf4c917bebc41d7aa37860a0034b64f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bf4c917bebc41d7aa37860a0034b64f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E May I take it from that answer that the Government has done no research into what the effect on the cost of the process would be and that the Minister is not concerned about any person being able to come\u2014and he thinks it will be fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229da31b19476d4c358915b083c5664c8b\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: At the cost of 10 years of litigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022196cc23c52ba41e890b08a50b318c161\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That member might be tedious, but he shouldn\u2019t throw these things around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe next question is around trade competitors. So the next question is that a trade competitor may object to an application. We\u2019re not talking about local alcohol plans, we\u2019re talking about licensing applications. Under this legislation, it\u2019s now possible for a trade competitor to object to an application, with two exceptions: if the objection does not relate to trade competition, or to the effects of trade competition. But otherwise, it\u2019s open slather. So I\u2019d just like to hear from the Minister what are the reasons that a trade competitor might come up with for objecting and why he thinks it\u2019s appropriate for Parliament to allow trade competitors to object, given the ingenuity of people to come up with reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re thinking about this, and these rules apply not just to setting up a new licence but also renewing a licence. So you\u2019ve got your little store or your restaurant with a licence, and somebody wants to open a new one next door. You\u2019re allowed to go along and say\u2014well, you can\u2019t say, \u201CI object to this licence because I don\u2019t want competition.\u201D. but you can say, \u201CI object to this licence because I\u2019m worried that having two stores in this neighbourhood would be hurtful.\u201D, and in the mind of that person, they wouldn\u2019t be thinking about competition, but they\u2019d be only concerned about the concerns of the community. Is this Government so naive that they think that that\u2019s how it would operate? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat the trade competitor would say, \u201CNo, I object to this being opened up next door, not because I don\u2019t want any competition, but because I am worried about the impact of having two stores in this community and we think that that\u2019s an issue. On that basis, we think there will be too many temptations in the way of people in this community and it shouldn\u2019t be opening.\u201D Is the Minister really that naive to think that that wouldn\u2019t lead to some pretty fundamental problems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe next one is around clause 12 which replaces section 133, which is the renewal of licences where relevant local authority policy exists, and this is, I think, the thing that we most strongly object to. There are two steps in this process. We\u2019re talking about setting up a local alcohol plan and then that goes through, and then, separately from that, there are the district licensing authorities, which actually do the deal about starting up new licences or renewing licences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe core issue of this legislation is it says that once you\u2019ve passed your local alcohol plan, and if your local alcohol plan says that there shall not be any liquor outlets within a kilometre of a school, for example\u2014and that\u2019s a new rule. It\u2019s come through, it\u2019s been approved, it\u2019s gone through the process, and it\u2019s been adopted. Under this legislation, when it comes to renewing a licence, the district licensing committee may decline to renew the licence if it considers that renewing the licence would be inconsistent with the policy, including the location.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo you\u2019ve been in business for 50 years, you have an impeccable record, and you haven\u2019t had any complaints. You\u2019re just a couple of Kiwis trying to make a living and you\u2019re proud of what you\u2019ve built up\u2014you know, that\u2019s your retirement saving, that\u2019s your plan, and that\u2019s what you\u2019ve done. That\u2019s your business, giving something that people want for purchases, and you happen to be within 800 metres of a school, and then, suddenly, there\u2019s a local alcohol plan that says you cannot be within a kilometre and\u2014whoom-fa! You\u2019re gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f413459f76684aa7b0ad10bf98bdd59d\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Boomfa? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f9627e8583c424d8c3f079c19104f77\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Whoom-fa\u2014you\u2019re gone\u2014and how does he justify that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2c9f58b69b4462cbb5dbcde896a4c0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2c9f58b69b4462cbb5dbcde896a4c0c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E \u201COom-fa!\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bcd9b899d184da7b23c38a5bbee8334\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, \u201CWhoom-fa!\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a354f817966049e79a9e3caebc952865\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, \u201CWhoom-fa!\u201D It\u2019s important to have that distinction, isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EJust to pop back to Mr Goldsmith\u2019s previous comment, I\u2019m advised that there has been consultation with local government around the management for objection and concerns about whether or not there\u2019d be a great increase in volume and they have the tools to manage that volume and they are comfortable with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn the member\u2019s two points, both of them were raised by Simon O\u2019Connor, so I am now repeating my answers that I gave to Mr O\u2019Connor. But Mr Goldsmith had one new point, and that was his question around trade competitors. It\u2019s just really important to note that I find it somewhat ironic that the member has managed to flip, in two contributions, to two 180-degree opposite positions, which is suddenly he doesn\u2019t want people to be able to be involved at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat we have at the moment is a situation where trade competitors have lodged objections that have unnecessarily and unfortunately limited the ability for local alcohol plans to be created. We are making changes that limit the extent that they can object by taking away the ability for that objection to be about trade competition matters. But the idea that they as residents, potentially, in a community would be entirely wiped out from being able to have a view, I would have thought that the member wouldn\u2019t haven\u2019t wanted. He would have wanted local community members to be involved. So there is now a limitation on trade competitors, and that I believe is appropriate, given the problems we\u2019ve had. But that\u2019s balanced against them still having some rights to actually be able to have a view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen on the question of renewals, I did answer this for Mr O\u2019Connor earlier. The change here is a discretionary change. It allows a district licensing committee to be able to consider those issues around a local alcohol policy (LAP) around location and density, but not around other matters like trading hours, and, as I said to Mr O\u2019Connor earlier, I\u2019m sure the member is aware that people regularly have to update their licence. Someone who has been in business for 50 years would have had a regular process of having to update their licence, so this is now allowing in that renewal process for the LAP that will have been created to now be taken into account, and thereby a new entry to the market and an existing person will now be treated the same. I actually think that the member, if he stopped and thought about that for a minute, would realise that that was actually a fair process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022970e82039ff147b1a1fe39bbf1573c82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022970e82039ff147b1a1fe39bbf1573c82\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. No I don\u2019t recognise that at all. I\u2019m not quite getting a clear reply from the Minister. It may be discretionary that a licensing authority may decline to renew a licence but this legislation gives them the power to decline a licence if it is consistent with the local alcohol policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236884b8e6ba94db9904c3f64a9fd84f2\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the reason for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fd18bed915a474c9bb8e81a3e93fbc1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know, and the question I\u2019m trying to get from the answer is how he thinks that is justifiable. Maybe people don\u2019t seem to understand it, but if you\u2019re operating a business where you have your life savings in that business, and you\u2019re trying to figure out whether to continue to invest in that business so it doesn\u2019t look scrappy, or you want to put some money into it, over the horizon you have potentially zero confidence that you will be able to carry on that business next year because the licensing process could take your legs out from underneath you in a way that is not related at all to your conduct in any way. When it comes to renewing a liquor licence, if a store or a restaurant with a liquor licence has a terrible reputation, keeps on breaking the rules, is a centre for endless riots and trouble and strife, and has a reputation for selling liquor to 13-year-olds and all that sort of thing, I think everybody would understand that it would be justifiable not to renew the licence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut what this bill is doing means that if somewhere in the process a liquor or alcohol plan suddenly decides that there shall be no stores within a kilometre of a school, for example\u2014which they could\u2014when your licence comes up for renewal and you\u2019ve been, for 50 years, 800 metres from the school, suddenly you could be out for no other reason than that. What I want to understand is not whether it may or may not happen; it could happen. The point is that under this legislation it could happen and there would be no way back. So how does the Minister justify that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EMy second question, as I have another two minutes, is around clause 12A, where we\u2019re talking about special licences, and, again, any person may object. I\u2019d be keen to hear from the Minister some examples of special licences where this might take place. So, you know, you\u2019re trying to organise a wedding somewhere in a unique position somewhere out in the bush or whatever, out the back of Coromandel, with a special licence, and you can have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef2e99ef80647f1afecb850a461c813\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s some very special licences in the back of the Coromandel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231290851bfcc4753862adfa926e521e8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: You could have a special licence out the back of the Coromandel for a special event, and once more that busybody from Invercargill can come along and object. So I just want to know whether he thinks that\u2019s practical or reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe next one is section 203A, \u201CLicensing committees must establish appropriate procedures\u201D\u2014this is in clause 14. This legislation brings in a new rule. It does not permit parties or their representatives to question witness of other parties. So I\u2019d be interested to get a clearer understanding of the thinking behind that. So if anybody is wanting to renew their licence\u2014say you\u2019re in Auckland and you\u2019ve been in business for a long time and you\u2019re wanting to renew your licence\u2014and our friend from Invercargill turns up and says, \u201CYou\u2019re a crook\u201D, or \u201CYou\u2019re a bad influence on the community and you keep selling to under-age people\u201D or whatever, this bill is saying that they should not be allowed to be questioned in any way. That\u2019s it\u2014they say their thing, there\u2019s no questioning, there\u2019s no cross-examination, and there\u2019s no way of testing that in any way. I\u2019d just like to understand the logic behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00228c04c8b41b80434cb5e7476650c1cac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c04c8b41b80434cb5e7476650c1cac7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll be brief because we are covering ground that I\u2019ve already covered here. I think the member betrayed himself a little as to what\u2019s going on here when he described the local alcohol policy as liquor plan rather than a local plan\u2014rather than a local alcohol plan. That\u2019s the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbc7e809247a41d7acd7cf80312f6566\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: You got me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6eb2a6b5c494c6db13a32b985934ce6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the point, though, isn\u2019t it, Mr Goldsmith, because this is about reflecting the views of the local community. So when and if a local alcohol plan is developed\u2014and the whole reason we\u2019re here doing this is because it\u2019s been very hard to do that under the legislation as it was passed\u2014it will be reflective of the local community and therefore when it comes time for a renewal of a licence, you would expect that to take into account the views of the committee as now articulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd that would be my answer to the last part of the member\u2019s approach as well. This is ostensibly a bill to make sure that the community\u2019s views are heard and that people have an opportunity to do that in a way that is fair and is not about distorting market competition. That is because these are the problems that have existed in the community since the legislation was passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo I think the member is philosophically coming at the bill from the opposite direction\u2014which doesn\u2019t surprise me because it would be consistent for the member to do that\u2014of the purpose of the bill, which is to facilitate greater and better community participation. And, Madam Chair, I think I\u2019ve answered his other questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228cfd93cf9bc94c1a93cac0bfa4e700bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cfd93cf9bc94c1a93cac0bfa4e700bf\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E The question that immediately arises from the Minister\u2019s commentary to the House is: what constitutes the local community? Because if it\u2019s open to anybody anywhere in New Zealand to object, that is not a local community. That is, the prohibitionists in society are given an opportunity to have a rant every time they see someone either going for a renewal of a licence or for a new licence. And then, of course, we also know that under these local alcohol plans, when they\u2019re advertised, etc., the vast majority of people who are quite comfortable with the licensing arrangements in their area don\u2019t make submissions because they assume that this is something that society allows. So those who are opposed tend to have the louder voices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAnd I think the problem with this, too, is that not only is that group of people who give their assent\u2014and remember it\u2019s only a few years, certainly in the member\u2019s lifetime, that the whole question of prohibition was taken off the general election ballot each year. The question of whether an area wanted to remain a trust area was taken off that ballot because the assumption was that people, after generations of saying yes, accepted that these facilities would be available in their local community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENow, the other problem I\u2019ve got with this is there\u2019s no specification in here about who might sit on those licensing applications. Look, the member can laugh, but throughout the country there are people who are in those positions who take extremely dim views of anything that comes out of a bottle, particularly if it\u2019s got alcohol in it. And I think that\u2019s a consideration that needs to be taken into account\u2014should be taken into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe idea, too, that someone who\u2019s operated successfully for a long period of time and complied with the law and any conditions of a licence could lose it because of an objection is also very unreasonable. If someone is operating outside the law, they\u2019re acting irresponsibly, they\u2019re behaving poorly, then yes, you\u2019d understand why they would lose their licence or they would have special conditions put on them or whatever. This makes it too easy for anybody to raise objections that could see someone else lose not only their investment, their livelihood, but also a loss in a community. It might be a great win for the small group of people who don\u2019t want it, but there\u2019s been no reference to the larger volume of people who are quite comfortable with that facility being there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAnd then I\u2019d raise the issue of\u2014in Christchurch we have, alongside the river in the central city, what was once known as \u201Cthe strip\u201D; a sort of series of bars, a very well-organised entertainment area. Now with all the laneways and what have you, there are smaller bars all throughout that facility; bars, cafes, small restaurants, etc. What if the local people there decide, or some big objectors get in there and say, \u201CNo, we don\u2019t like that.\u201D? Something that the whole city is quite proud of, quite pleased with, but then a small group of people put the knife in and go and convince the local hearing panel looking at the local alcohol policy that it should be shut down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENow, look, the Minister over there shakes his head and says, \u201CThis couldn\u2019t happen\u201D. Lots of things happen as a consequence of law\u2014lots of things happen as a consequence of law and this is a law that\u2019s being imposed on the basis that it\u2019s good for community participation, but essentially is going to ignore the vast majority of the community and simply give a voice\u2014a much louder voice than is reasonable\u2014to those who are opposed to this just on a principle basis. So my question is: what constitutes a community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd55adc3ca1d4d74aa4756e916d9ed0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd55adc3ca1d4d74aa4756e916d9ed0d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just in terms of the appropriate procedures in proposed new section 203A\u2014\u201Callow for tikanga M\u0101ori to be incorporated into the proceedings\u201D\u2014I don\u2019t see \u201Ctikanga M\u0101ori\u201D defined anywhere. So I\u2019d just like to have a clear definition from him as to what that means, thank you. Well, the tikanga from Ngati Porou might well be very different to somewhere else. So I just want to know what we\u2019re talking about here. That would be helpful\u2014that would be helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing is\u2014and maybe I\u2019m misinterpreting this; it\u2019s possible, who knows?\u2014clause 15A strikes out a whole bunch of things in terms of directions of hearings, and it strikes out clause 205C, giving the power of a licensing committee to decline\u2014may direct that the evidence or the brief be struck out of it is frivolous and vexatious. That\u2019s been struck out, and I just want clarification. Does that mean that they no longer can do that or is it being referred to somewhere else in the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5411bfbf9c04dba8f749443c062dfb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5411bfbf9c04dba8f749443c062dfb4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Just briefly on the last point, I\u2019ll check, but I\u2019m sure it is because they do continue to have the right to strike out vexatious submission or to consider a person who makes a submission to be vexatious. So that will already be dealt with elsewhere in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the only other new points that the member has raised around tikanga, he actually answered his own question in his statement, which is that a definition of it in the Act would not be reflective of the different tikanga in different parts of the country. It relates to Mr Brownlee\u2019s points, which is that there is still a role here for local government and the entities and committees that get created at a local level. There will be a variety of people with a variety of views on those committees, as there will be a variety of tikanga in different parts of the country. Local authorities and local committees such as this already know how to run themselves. And, normally, it is the Opposition telling us that we should not be telling local government how to do their job, and this bill holds the principle that local government will be able to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6f65a5f08464d9d838b5dc34adc3978\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the job they shouldn\u2019t have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c219c9d5e1384fe39035c15bd4a35f72\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that may well be the case, Mr Brownlee, but that\u2019s not what this bill is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00223e8e014bfd0643fba5a6ae2d788e79b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e8e014bfd0643fba5a6ae2d788e79b0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Thank you for that non-answer, Mr Chair, Mr Speaker\u2014whatever he is; he\u2019s \u201CMinister\u201D, I think. I suppose the final and broader point\u2014and I don\u2019t know, I sense a slight determination on the part of the Minister to get on with it and just ram all this stuff through one week before an election, and we worry about that. But the broader point I want to make is around the impact that it has on this being an example of a Government that has had a tendency to add regulatory costs particularly to small businesses but all businesses very freely and with surprisingly little thought given to the impact that it has on consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBecause ultimately all the cost of this filters through the system and ends up adding to the cost of beer and wine or whatever in this case. But there are many other\u2014countless\u2014examples. If you think in the area of housing, for example, if you pass all the regulations around expectations around XYZ, there\u2019s no magic. It doesn\u2019t come out of the air. Somebody has to pay for it. And then, ultimately, in the case of housing, it ends up with the renters having to pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo in this area, what we\u2019ve got in total is we\u2019ve got flinging open the doors wide when it comes to any objectors from anywhere. Not just sort of saying it should be individuals who object, but it can be organisations, the temperance union or whatever from anywhere can come and object to anything. And then it lists all the sorts of things that have to happen in terms of translation being offered. It should allow for an unspecified set of tikanga that could be incorporated. So a whole lot of extra ability for these things to go longer and in a more convoluted fashion. The one countervailing thing that the bill does offer is the fact that you can\u2019t ask any questions of the people who make objections, and so you\u2019ve just got to sit there and listen to it and then, ultimately, pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI suppose the thing that worries me is the kind of assumption that the small-business operations, which are by far and away the largest number of licence holders\u2014small operations, little mum and dad operations\u2014can just soak up all this and if it takes a few days to grind your way through this process, so be it. And if it costs you $2,000, well, so be it and that will magically sort of just appear from somewhere and it won\u2019t have any impact on the costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, secondly, whether it will have impact on\u2014so, I mean, what we\u2019re trying to achieve is to reduce the harm of excessive liquor consumption in our communities. But we\u2019re also trying to balance the fact that we also want a vibrant hospitality sector. And I\u2019ve heard the Minister in the chair wax lyrical on many occasions, particularly in the context of the Rugby World Cup and FIFA and all that, about how wonderful this is for the hospitality sector and how important the hospitality sector is. Yet at the same time they\u2019re passing legislation which may have an enormously profound effect on participants in that sector if they fall foul of the views of somebody from anywhere and the local alcohol plans, if they are unduly restrictive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the two sort of comments that I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister is: how is he so confident that this process won\u2019t lead ultimately to higher costs to consumers and is he confident that the hospitality sector in general is supportive of this legislation and that they\u2019re calling out for it and that they think that they would be treated reasonably under it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00222b51687d2009471a95547c5feae671d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b51687d2009471a95547c5feae671d5\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002295107cc3c86f4ecd8eca788d4407823e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 30; ACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000444\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000445\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002202fbbe119e9043f8b8aa13c7be2ca5a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202fbbe119e9043f8b8aa13c7be2ca5a2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0005e1b8e344fe1b63b6e6f95a8af05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0005e1b8e344fe1b63b6e6f95a8af05\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c786402534f4526a69bcdcdcdc91903\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002220034e27d4ba4b48bc7d006595b87e00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220034e27d4ba4b48bc7d006595b87e00\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I present a legislative statement on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f118c4e0604fa88e5ee58d199ff283\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That statement is on the parliamentary website\u2014is available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ba06db262345638a863a9b4153cf58\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe alcohol licensing process is integral to alcohol regulation in New Zealand. It is the process that decides where and when alcohol is sold in our communities: in bottle stores, supermarkets, restaurants, pubs, at clubs, and at large events. It is important that this licensing process works well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act was created over 10 years ago, the intention was for communities to be able to have their say on alcohol licensing in their areas. In a broad way, it was intended that communities could help develop local alcohol policies that apply to all licence applications, and, on a case by case basis, it was intended that communities could participate in individual licensing hearings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere are two important reasons for this. It\u2019s our communities who can best articulate the way that alcohol affects them and their families and wh\u0101nau. Despite the intention, since the Act came into force, the evidence shows us that licensing decisions are not being made with community input as had been expected. In fact, communities are having far less of a voice than intended. This is not for lack of interest. Individuals and groups are involved in the development of local alcohol policies through consultation, only for those policies to be watered down or abandoned entirely because of appeals. Many individuals and groups seek to be involved in hearings on individual applications only to be told that they don\u2019t have sufficient interest in the application to object.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee process for this bill, it was clear that many individuals and groups consider that the way the Act is working at the moment means their voices are not being heard. Therefore, I am pleased that this bill is a champion for community voice. The bill makes it easier for communities to have their say in three ways: easier to adopt and apply local alcohol policies, or LAPs, to licensing areas. It does this by removing appeals against LAPs and restoring district licensing committees\u2019 discretion to decline to renew licences if those licences would be inconsistent with the area\u2019s LAP. These changes reduce delays and costs that many territorial authorities have experienced in trying to adopt LAPs, and means that LAPS can be taken into account in more licensing decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill broadens who can object to licensing applications. It does this by removing the test that people and groups must be able to meet to object to those applications, but maintains narrow exceptions around trade to ensure licensing remains focused on harm reduction. This practically means no person or group will have to prove their interest in the application as they have to do at the moment, which can be particularly excluding. District licensing committees will also have a greater range of information before them to make their decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd, thirdly, the bill also makes licensing hearings more accessible and fairer for everyone taking part by changing the way that district licensing committees\u2019 hearings are run. It requires district licensing committees to ensure their hearings avoid unnecessary formality, including by removing cross-examination and allowing for tikanga to be recognised. These changes will make hearings less intimidating and encourage more people to have a say about what happens in their community. By making these changes, the bill recognises the importance of community input in alcohol licensing and that voices of the community are heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that interests in alcohol licensing are varied. Our communities also include alcohol licence holders running local businesses, and their voices are important in licensing too. The changes have been carefully considered with this in mind, and this can be seen through the changes the bill makes. One example relates to the changes to local alcohol policies. As a result of the changes, the status of the special consultative procedure is restored. The special consultant procedure is a process which must be used to create an LAP, and it gives everyone an opportunity to say how they want the LAP for their area to look. Removing appeals against LAPs means that different voices all have the same opportunity to contribute in the context of consultation. Community contribution to the development of LAPs will no longer be drowned out by appeals, which tend to be made by organisations representing a narrow set of interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s changes also respect the roles of the decision makers in the licensing system. By removing appeals, the bill respects the role of locally elected representatives to design and adopt LAPs applying to their areas. The changes also respect the discretion of district licensing committees who make licensing decisions on behalf of their area. The community voice is one factor they take into account in their decision making. They also consider other information, including from applicants and licensing inspectors. Like decision makers in other processes, district licensing committees take all the information they have, consider its relevance, and weigh it to make their decisions. The bill respects their role in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I touched on before, the changes to licensing hearings apply to everybody. It\u2019s not just objectors that can find licensing hearings a stressful experience. We know that licensees can also find them intimidating. The changes this bill makes will benefit them and everyone who attends. All participants should feel comfortable and confident to share their views and not have to worry about getting tangled in knots through the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud that this bill gives communities back their voice within the system, strikes the balance between all interests involved, and respects the role of decision makers in the process. I want to thank the Justice Committee for their work on the bill and all those who submitted and contributed to the process. The changes the committee made as a result of hearing from the submitters have enhanced the bill. I want to acknowledge the previous Minister of Justice for her work in introducing the bill and the current Minister of Justice for the work to complete this. I\u2019m confident that by making these targeted changes to the licensing process, this bill will make a big difference to those in our communities whose views have been excluded for too long. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6945d4183f64d6cb7e1d74071f2ce49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6945d4183f64d6cb7e1d74071f2ce49\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022737906d250cb4d81ab8e04447d87f815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022737906d250cb4d81ab8e04447d87f815\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we don\u2019t agree to this bill and we\u2019ll be opposing it. So this is the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. It was introduced by Kiri Allan when she was Minister of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe starting point is a fair concern around the slow and cumbersome process of the appeals to local alcohol plans, which allow for, in legislation, the community to have a say on what goes on in their community when it comes to liquor licences. These are for all the various off-licences and for bars and so forth in our community. So, yep, we agree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been a very slow process. The Government had a couple of options. They could try and improve the process so that it went more swiftly and that appeals were dealt with in a timely fashion or they could go for the much tougher option, which is what they did, which is to do away with the appeals. Now, the slight problem with the logic of that is that it kind of assumes that councils always make the correct decisions. I just think anybody who lives in New Zealand and is aware of how local government operates would struggle with that idea that the council always gets it right and that the decisions that they make in coming up with anything are always 100 percent right and should never be questioned or appealed. I don\u2019t like to be unkind to our friends in the local government sector, but I think experience would indicate that sometimes they don\u2019t get it right and sometimes, when it comes to reflecting the views of the community, they don\u2019t actually reflect the views of the community but they might reflect the views of themselves and their supporters and their particular concerns, and particular interest groups sometimes have greater weight than others. So that is a very flawed sort of basis upon which to legislate, in my view: that council always gets it right, therefore it shouldn\u2019t be appealed and it should be just accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, as well as dealing with that, the Government has made a number of very substantial changes to how the process works in terms of the granting of licences, not just granting of new ones. So we\u2019re talking about the hospitality sector more generally. And notwithstanding Grant Robertson, who will, like I say, be very, very happy to be pictured drinking a beer down at the pub for FIFA or for the Rugby World Cup\u2014and he always talks about how important the hospitality sector is and tourism and all that sort of stuff\u2014this legislation could make life extremely difficult for the mum and dad small-business owners up and down the country trying to just do their business, because it introduces an extreme, arbitrary process when it comes to the renewal of licences, and we just think it goes too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBecause what it says is if a local alcohol plan, which is gone through by the all-seeing and allpowerful and all-wise council, determines that you should not have a liquor licence within a kilometre of a school, for example, which they might\u2014I could just see it happening\u2014then if you have been in business for 50 years, are 800 metres from a school, and you have a perfect record, you\u2019re loved by the community, you\u2019ve got a great bar or whatever, or you\u2019re an off-licence and you\u2019ve done well, then lo and behold, if this local alcohol plan is passed saying it can\u2019t be within a kilometre of the school, what can happen when you come up for your renewal of your licence is that the district licensing authority may decline your renewal, simply on the basis of that change in the plan. And so the business that you built up for 50 years, gone just like that. Now, that, I think, is an overreach and very unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt may well be that, using that example, there\u2019s another shop a couple of hundred metres down the road that happens to be just outside the boundary with a terrible record, that goes on, carries on fine, but you, with the great record, who happen to be slightly in the wrong place, can be gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen it flings open the doors wide when it comes to objections. It used to be reasonably tightly constrained to people who actually had a clear interest in the neighbourhood and had a reasonable proposition to include anybody or anything from any group from anywhere in the country. And so, lo and behold, you could have a big, long line-up of a well-organised anti-alcohol groups everywhere coming through and making life very difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow look, there is a place for locals to object, and I think that\u2019s absolutely right and appropriate, but to have no restrictions whatsoever on who can be a part of the process, I think, again will be very difficult to manage in a practical sense. And then they can say whatever they like and make all sorts of allegations about you, and you\u2019re not allowed to cross-examine them in any way, shape, or form. So I don\u2019t think that is a reasonable thing either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, of course, they can incorporate tikanga M\u0101ori into the proceedings. I worry about that simply from the point of view, in terms of the basic sort of rule of law, that it should be predictable. People should know exactly what the rules are and how it should be done. And if we\u2019re introducing concepts that aren\u2019t pinned down, can vary enormously, then I think that is a problem when it comes to predictability. It might be a small matter here, but in terms of the broader law within this country, that is a big issue and one that I think needs a bit more thought and care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd then, finally, when it comes to competitors objecting, I think it\u2019s a ridiculously naive approach taken, which is to say trade competitors can object, but they can\u2019t object when it comes to trade competition. So the person who objects to a store opening up next door can say, \u201CLook, I\u2019m not concerned about the fact that they\u2019re trading, but I just don\u2019t feel like it\u2019s good for the community to have two stores in this area.\u201D, which to me seems to be a ridiculous proposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo, Madam Chair\u2014\u201CMadam Speaker\u201D would be even better! Madam Speaker, with that, I finish my speech and we oppose this legislation. We also oppose the fact that it\u2019s been rammed through in the very, very last days of this Government, under urgency. When the sun is sinking on this Government, they are ramming through all sorts of things at the last minute, and that\u2019s a pity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d65202a466564cbbab12e93751c550d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d65202a466564cbbab12e93751c550d5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the lunch break. We will resume after question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1.01 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022956aede182334d8f8009b99bf6742550\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c01a83421c74cd3be19be0a318464ac\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u2014Privileges Committee Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcb5fe6f66ab4dbfb1e5443a090c0549\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcb5fe6f66ab4dbfb1e5443a090c0549\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1e38212e49a43938abf1ed60e54a84d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1e38212e49a43938abf1ed60e54a84d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e323a42f2c44bc694afcdfdf21645f1\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Today, the Privileges Committee has presented its report into the question of privilege concerning my conduct towards the chairperson of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. The Privileges Committee has found my actions to be a contempt of Parliament, and when Parliament sits next week, I will be censured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EMembers of Parliament and parliamentary staff should be able to carry out their duties in a stable environment. The report from the Privileges Committee makes it clear that my conduct after the select committee on 29 June had an impact on others that I had not appreciated. Although I have a different recollection of some aspects of the incident, I completely accept the findings of the committee. I apologise to all those who were in the room but specifically to Mr Halbert, who was most impacted by my conduct. I am horrified at the thought of my conduct having been perceived as threatening. This is not at all in my nature, and I\u2019ve enjoyed working constructively with MPs from across the House. Obviously, in this instance, I have fallen short of my own expectations and the expectations of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENo one should feel threatened in their workplace, and it was certainly not my intent to threaten Mr Halbert. Regardless, my conduct was not appropriate, and it should not have happened. I would also like to apologise specifically to the select committee staff, who do a wonderful job for us all. I\u2019d like to thank the many MPs that have offered their support through this process. And, finally, I would also like to extend an apology to all members of this House for the impact my actions may have on the perception of parliamentarians and of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abb3bae7a2e3422fba253c56be8677bd\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f9bddcfd80f4d6db319d8708c579ef3\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7cef86d695b4c4fa1f0a09b3d7b94f8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Energy and Resources\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1f159f3a7ea4c0085daea24023eaad3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1f159f3a7ea4c0085daea24023eaad3\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: How is the Government partnering with businesses to reduce their emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00222bc0a70b6148410698035b411ae6fc7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bc0a70b6148410698035b411ae6fc7c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Recently, I announced the Government is partnering with a further 17 businesses to accelerate decarbonisation projects, which will cut their use of fossil fuels, reduce emissions, and protect and create highly skilled jobs in New Zealand. Through round five of the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry fund, or GIDI, these Government-backed projects are estimated to reduce carbon emissions by 67,300 tonnes per year\u2014the equivalent to taking approximately 25,000 cars off the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f168891369e048eeab47f595fcacb883\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What are some examples of the projects supported through GIDI round five?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e2a407411f743d78a3f9c7abb1a7791\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Through round five, the Government is partnering with Open Country Dairy Awarua on a significant project to install a large, high-pressure electrode boiler and three high-temperature heat pumps. This alone will contribute over half of the emissions reductions in round five. We\u2019re also partnering with Rainbow Park Nurseries in Auckland, which will be the first in the country to use highly efficient heat pump technology to warm the water that runs through the glasshouses. Rainbow Park have said that funding brought forward their green upgrade by at least four or five years, delivering emissions reductions sooner and when New Zealand needs them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225b7c573a1c6429a92a87ba912b51748\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Have any of the projects funded through the Government\u2019s partnership been completed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c409f687e540e9a2697d9148db2133\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Twenty-six projects funded through the Government\u2019s partnership with businesses have been completed. These include new equipment for energy efficiency and carbon reduction at the Whakatane paperboard mill, an electrode boiler at Meadow Mushrooms in Christchurch, and a biomass boiler at Napier Pine. These projects accelerate emissions reductions while protecting and creating jobs here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221361837e3d72414393f5d1d8712b1128\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s partnerships with business contribute to New Zealand\u2019s emissions goals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246b248919e6644059827ae9d871b4d69\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Across GIDI, we\u2019ve now partnered with 56 businesses on 83 projects to accelerate the decarbonisation of industrial process heat. Once operational, all projects are estimated to result in annual emissions reductions of up to 1.6 million tonnes of carbon dioxide. That is the equivalent of taking approximately 590,000 cars off the road. Anyone who purports to cut this scheme needs to tell us how they\u2019re going to make up for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227efd7c39236d4b25bfa94cb9dc3eb925\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What investments is the Government making to support decarbonisation in New Plymouth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c08497d60321403da9ae734e97b9b40d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, an excellent question. The Government is investing in two decarbonisation projects at Taranaki Hospital. These projects will replace the hospital\u2019s fossil-gas boiler with a low-emissions alternative and improve the energy efficiency of the hospital, elevating it to green star building status. Once complete, these projects are estimated to reduce the carbon emissions at the hospital by 10,340 tonnes over 10 years. In addition, the Government is partnering with businesses to deliver 21 chargers to the Taranaki region to support the transition to a lowemissions transport system. These projects will help reduce transport emissions and improve the reliability of electric vehicle transport infrastructure in New Plymouth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cdaf661ff3e44d9493d37b5d56e931f6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002257a2561726a348638f595b1fac5b9294\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257a2561726a348638f595b1fac5b9294\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all his statements related to Government tax and spending decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00228cf2f18c24614595ade6e1aef291efe4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cf2f18c24614595ade6e1aef291efe4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, acknowledging the context in which they were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201b46992b482410caa31758e829036c9\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe he has honoured his commitment not to implement any new taxes this term, and how does he reconcile that with having turned the brightline test into a virtual capital gains tax, having introduced an app tax, new tenant taxes, tried to introduce a wealth tax at the Budget, a KiwiSaver tax, and a jobs tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219cce810274d463291fb12a7146d83ff\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve noted before to the member, I have been\u2014if we\u2019re going to apply the word \u201Ctax\u201D to every single policy or action, I would apply the \u201Cwaffle tax\u201D to her leader as an example of that. I stand by the programme of work that we have undertaken. We have undertaken initiatives to make our tax system fairer whilst balancing the need to provide good quality public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bd5f0aa51fc445db4d73cee6732f802\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think he was honouring his commitment not to implement any new taxes this term when he asked officials from across Government to develop a wealth tax for introduction in this year\u2019s Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb53c206571f4015897e8637c52e2268\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As has been discussed extensively in this House, that would not have come into force until after the election, and the public, had it been taken up, would have had an opportunity to decide whether they wanted it or not. In the event it was not taken up, by Cabinet decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224928c06058364d60a48bdcbcc0a5bd76\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that he was \u201Ctoo definitive\u201D when he ruled out extending the brightline test prior to the election, and can he confirm that if someone today lives outside of their family home for 12 months, for any reason\u2014illness, secondment, bereavement\u2014then they will be subject to a capital gains tax if they sell their home within a 10-year period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff17dd14f2fb40ebbb4f8e3fed02acb5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, yes. In answer to the second part of the question, the rule that the member is highlighting is the rule that the National Party brought in. I will quote from when they bought it in: \u201CThe owner must have resided in their property as their main home. The main home exclusion will not apply when only a family member and not the owner has used the property as their main home.\u201D This is what National brought in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab6d5efc6b174a2ea6ead1264bf0ecb3\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the finance Minister trying to blame National for the effect of a brightline test that he extended to 10 years, and a definition of the main home which means that families who live outside their home will now be subject to a capital gains tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dfdb3bb221949f8905cdaabc4a57c07\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Because the National Party brought that rule in. The National Party brought in the brightline test; the rule hasn\u2019t changed in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222935bc5d6ffd438ab3211b411c3b2e2b\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister also like to blame National for his extensive reflection on the need for a wealth tax, for his reflection on the need for a KiwiSaver tax that would wipe tens of billions of dollars off New Zealanders\u2019 KiwiSaver accounts, for his decision to increase tenant taxes without a mandate from the electorate, or is it actually his responsibility that those decisions were made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a3e498528f4e6f83a737bf4b0f3ce7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Over the course of the last six years we\u2019ve worked extremely hard to support New Zealanders through very tough times, including the COVID pandemic and including the period of time now where cost of living pressures are so high. We\u2019ve done that in the context of inheriting a situation where New Zealand public services had been consistently run down. So, yes, we had to invest heavily in health to make sure we paid our nurses properly, to make sure we recruited health staff. We had to invest heavily in education to make sure we didn\u2019t have kids learning in halls and in corridors outside classrooms, and to make sure that teachers are here and that they\u2019re paid properly. We had to invest extensively to make sure that we got away from the National Party policy of selling off public and State housing and, instead, building 13,000 public houses. So, yes, there will always be an element of what we are doing where we have to look back and say, \u201CWe are cleaning up the National Government\u2019s messes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264a51358722946779ab75182e4c38ac6\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister reflected on or done any analysis on what would happen if there was an increase in the GST across this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb3818d270745eabfda34f084f59aff\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member well knows, that is not something that the Government has increased, and previous Governments who didn\u2019t do that reflection before they went into office and then just did it straight after without telling New Zealanders certainly have something to reflect on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022638e2ddd694d4539b5c2d618ce5e2561\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders trust any commitment he makes on tax when it may be that he takes a detour down the road to Damascus at any juncture?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022042a4c8bf3a84675984ffca9695621e4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014I just didn\u2019t know that had finished\u2014this Government stands proudly on the record we have had of supporting New Zealanders through tough times, making sure we look after the most vulnerable in our community, making sure that we have quality public services available, and making sure that what we do adds up. The member has a set of unfunded promises that don\u2019t add up and place her firmly in the Bermuda fiscal Triangle that Paul Goldsmith created for her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225bd6b01a599b4e2aa19784d1e8c99a30\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f83dcdb0efdf4d9b96f1af75be1ab6e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f83dcdb0efdf4d9b96f1af75be1ab6e6\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What is the Government doing to reduce youth vaping?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad3d3c87c5a34e21b6af57161a6a76be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad3d3c87c5a34e21b6af57161a6a76be\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this week, I confirmed a number of new regulations aimed at reducing youth vaping, including proximity restrictions and limiting flavour descriptions. These new regulations build on the previous protections we introduced, including banning sales to under-18s and prohibiting vape advertising and sponsorship. The impact of these regulations will continue to be monitored. Nothing is off the table in terms of what we need to do to make sure we see a reduction in youth vaping while retaining sufficient tools for smoking cessation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2cf878735b4f09a7537ed5dcf9c12c\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: What change is the Government making to reduce the appeal of vaping to children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ff4c3dd66e5416fa41db015566c50c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: While some vape flavours are described generically, others are described in ways that appear to be designed to specifically appeal to young people. Studies have found that flavours are important for initiation and continuation of vaping among young people. That\u2019s why we have changed regulations so that vape products and their packaging will only be able to have generic descriptions that accurately describe the types of flavours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f7f8d7d7c4a4d62a72b107dc1bdc8ae\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: What change is the Government making to make vapes less accessible to children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022174ed7312c044200a737d09081362055\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: We want vapes as far from the minds and reach of children and young people as possible. That\u2019s why any locations within 300 metres of schools and marae will be off limits for new specialist vape shops. Limiting the proximity of specialist vape shops in this way is intended to make vapes less visible and accessible to young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec6155b2a2c848f9862b9db708a4185f\u0022\u003ESarah Pallett\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government working to reduce youth vaping?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b9ea9342a848fdaa72a874fa40e1f2\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Many of the regulatory controls are there to protect young people from vaping. Youth vaping has grown, despite the laws we\u2019ve brought in to prohibit sales to under18s. Alongside our efforts to reduce tobacco smoking, we want to ensure vaping products are safe, regulated, and are only being used for cessation purposes, as was intended. I\u2019m committed to protecting our tamariki from the risks associated with smoking and vaping products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022118a8d39f1c549499e5f28650a1f2ffe\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00229d52e39c71d8483da594b4ffcafdc59c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d52e39c71d8483da594b4ffcafdc59c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does she still believe that the Government has the right priorities in justice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222147fd15bca54cf5b6b7681775595cf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222147fd15bca54cf5b6b7681775595cf8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: Yes, including cracking down on gangs whilst also supporting victims of crime. We\u2019ve banned semi-automatics and we\u2019ve toughened legislation on the proceeds of crime but we\u2019ve also passed sexual violence legislation and improved victim assistance schemes and funding for Victim Support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022806ce9098b6847b0ae6b3d5d4d972056\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when apparently cracking down on gangs, does her Government persist with the goal of reducing the prison population by 30 percent, irrespective of the level of serious crime in our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d6fb17d0d6f4ba196dd55919605c19d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The proportion of prisoners in prison who are gang affiliates has increased, as has the number of gang affiliates on other forms of sentence. On both occasions, this is in part because the police are cracking down so successfully against gangs, seizing proceeds of crime, firearms, and bringing the full weight of the law against them for their offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44e3d8452e5408e8cef5236fb03a54d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How does she reconcile her statement to Newshub: \u201Cif there is a line and someone crosses [it,] they are held accountable and they suffer the consequences of committing that crime.\u201D with her Government\u2019s stated goal of reducing the prison population by 30 percent, regardless of the level of serious crime in our community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022586890bbee224d0492f62fb184898522\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the answer that I gave earlier addresses that question. There is no doubt that the police have been given more resources to crack down on gangs. They have a serious offending unit that cracks down on gangs and other organised crime. It has resulted in thousands of offences being charged, with those people ending up in prison in the main and sometimes on home detention, as well as the confiscation of many firearms and the proceeds of crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb6ea452d514bd4a55dbe77ad2742b3\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t the Government\u2019s prison reduction focus send the message that the Government is less interested in accountability and consequences for crime than it is in achieving its goal of a 30 percent reduction in the number of prisoners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c667df01e704062bb706206bc24b0a1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: On this side of the House, we actually leave sentences to the courts. We don\u2019t interfere in that process. I would note that in respect of another party\u2019s announcement recently, the Auckland District Law Society said that if that happened, then this would be limiting judicial discretion in a way that would be an overreach of parliamentary power and that it would be illogical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022388daa19a3024c9aa8808bd8e3a013e1\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports of a member of this House interfering in the police prosecution by contacting prosecution witnesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f487deee78944a5bc41083b1b68e9e3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if that was correct, it could be a very serious issue, but I have no particular information on that matter. If the member wants a more particular answer, that could be put down in a primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b6912e657804d979699e92c23c70f74\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that the impression that some people may have gathered that the Government is less interested in the consequences of crime has flowed through to the situation where Woolworths is spending $45 million buying new trolleys to stop people running out of stores without paying\u2014something that means law-abiding Kiwis have to pay more for their fruit and vegetables and groceries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294fddedc712f49d089395f143855693c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It might be that that member, like some of his colleagues, never goes to supermarkets, because I know, having been to supermarkets over many decades, that it\u2019s many decades ago that they introduced the same technology to stop those trolleys being taken from the car park.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5c4e26d0ddb470e9d3f7001815f79dd\u0022\u003EHon Meka Whaitiri\u003C/span\u003E: To the Minister, in your opinion, is it appropriate for a member of this House to interfere in a police prosecution by contacting prosecution witnesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227273d2bc16e54b7d9b0461d3c0be34c6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s a very easy question to answer. That would be entirely inappropriate, and I would be surprised if that ever occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223719ea361884484aaff8d36befeec8cd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00225c9eb53f5c7145f088f945b9b9491d46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c9eb53f5c7145f088f945b9b9491d46\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Cin the economic circumstances that we are in at this time, we do not believe that major tax changes are appropriate\u201D; if so, when would economic circumstances be appropriate for taxing wealth or capital gains?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002267e7852366ef4f0cbc842b61802868c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267e7852366ef4f0cbc842b61802868c5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, I stand by my statement in its full and proper context. In answer to the second part of the question, the member is asking about a hypothetical situation, but I would refer her to the rest of my answer to her question on 17 May 2023, where I went on to say we have made the tax reform that we promised to make at the 2020 election. Future policies are for political parties to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022005f06ea887e4d3d8701e8037221e612\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: What could be a more appropriate time to tax wealth or capital gains, when the Government\u2019s own research shows that the wealthiest 311 families in this country pay an effective tax rate less than half of that of the average New Zealander?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de90de2aef2e4eec87bec77584678137\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, the Cabinet decision is that the particularly volatile and uncertain economic environment that we\u2019re living in now is not the appropriate time to make those major tax changes. I would note that since that statement was made in May, we have seen further volatility globally, particularly with respect to what\u2019s happening in China and, indeed, across other parts of the world, and so that part of that statement certainly stands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d14c8d83e94accb0b38a41d66b7a52\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the right time to create a fairer and more equitable tax system when 55\u00A0percent of New Zealanders report being in a financially difficult position, compared to the wealthiest 311 families who own $85 billion in wealth, more than the bottom 2.5 million New Zealanders combined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022700f4aef718b43bb930c8e4fe2b67ae6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve said on a number of occasions in this House, this is a particularly challenging time for many New Zealand households and, indeed, many New Zealand businesses. That\u2019s the reason why the Government has stepped up with significant support over a long period of time to low and middle income New Zealanders, and we will continue to try to find the opportunities to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289926faaafe44ffb987c77a098318f90\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the right time to tax wealth when Aotearoa\u2019s tax system is ranked 136th in the world for reducing inequality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb4ad23305444e5b188e493a3dd82a0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I haven\u2019t seen that particular statistic, but I have seen statistics that rank within the OECD around things like the tax wedge, that New Zealand actually compares relatively favourably on. During this term of Government, we\u2019ve sought to make the tax system fairer by increasing the top rate, putting in the trustee rate to reach that top rate as well, and we will continue to look for opportunities to do that, balanced against all of the other needs that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d00bd6a86f4698985c4ae9f8fe6974\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Minister\u2019s position that now is not an appropriate time to introduce taxes of the sort being discussed with the member due to volatility in the global economic environment, and, if so, what are the economic conditions in which the Minister thinks it would be appropriate to introduce taxes of that sort?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022565163dc7c0044df9a2d56a86278b8c1\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As indicated by the Cabinet decisions in May, a time when the global economy is so uncertain, where companies and households have been through very turbulent times, and where there are ongoing significant challenges to the New Zealand economy is clearly not that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228657063a26434068bea26f6345f65bac\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: So does the Minister think it would be appropriate to introduce wealth taxes or capital gains taxes if the economic conditions were more permissive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa9ed556d2a4018aad0716c36eb23ce\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Cabinet has taken the decisions that are to be taken in this term of Government on taxation, and there are no further decisions to be taken in that regard. Clarity about taxation is very important, and we look forward to hearing clarity from the National Party about taxation\u2014for example, whether or not the 39 percent top rate is coming back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291bfc9ed714427ca7322859eece0bc9\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with 63 percent of people in Aotearoa who think now is the right time to implement a wealth tax to provide free dental care so people don\u2019t have to live with debilitating pain?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fdc9abe71ad4fb4983670a03de9432c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As has already been indicated, Cabinet has taken the decision not to implement a wealth tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b048db610f2f4bf98eacc366b9d44135\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Who is most disproportionately impacted by the current economic conditions that he describes, the one in nine children living in poverty or the 311 wealthiest families in Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd6237b68bd5416aa38b01a77bf8e13a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Quite clearly, those people who are our most vulnerable are the most impacted by a deterioration in economic conditions, and that\u2019s exactly why, as a Government, I am proud that we have lifted the rates of main benefits, lifted family tax credits, lifted childcare assistance, supported superannuitants, students\u2014all of them\u2014with the cost of living pressures that they\u2019re facing. Those are the things that need to be prioritised over unfunded tax cuts that would deliver significant benefits to the wealthiest New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213fc34f82436461486ea56321456bb4e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Public Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022abe6393e3be74b1290bdff9220b618c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abe6393e3be74b1290bdff9220b618c0\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Public Service: What reports has he seen about proposals for changes to the Public Service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00222c25e493aec84e899c2132ccfea746d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c25e493aec84e899c2132ccfea746d7\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister for the Public Service):\u003C/span\u003E Our Public Service supports the Government of the day to implement its policies and programmes. The Public Service does vital work, such as making sure businesses and workers are supported through fair and balanced law; educating our kids; fixing roads, rail, bridges, and houses after natural disasters; and assisting with solving long-term intractable problems like good environmental planning, safe water in the future, responding to climate change, and so on. The latest Kiwis Count survey reported that 82 percent of New Zealanders trust public services, and that compares to the OECD average of just 50\u00A0percent. I\u2019ve seen reports on proposals to integrate CERT New Zealand into the National Cyber Security Centre to strengthen the country\u2019s cyber-security resilience and response. That\u2019s a proposal the Government accepted, by the way. Also, I\u2019ve seen reports on proposals to improve national security leadership through organisational reform, something that this Government is doing. But I\u2019ve also seen various reports of proposals to cut 7,300 Public Service workers in the Wellington region and 14,000 nationwide, including halving the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) workforce. All of these proposals would make it more difficult for any elected Government to implement its policies and would see significant cuts to vital services that Kiwis and our economy rely on. This Government has no plans to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e0a8d2a02d46c78d2890eebe2ee07f\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What would be the effects of a reported halving of MBIE public services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbdc1c988e3c43c1b8e61723903f97bf\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: MBIE contains a number of functions that are crucial to successful economic activities. Halving MBIE\u2019s workforce would mean it could not have processed the tens of thousands of visas for the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup that contributed $200 million to our economy. MBIE would not be able to process the hundreds of thousands of other visas which are the basis of our reinvigorated tourism sector or the thousands of working holiday green list and skilled migrant visas for nurses and other health workers urgently needed by our health sector. Halving MBIE\u2019s workforce would limit the support for our film and games industries, which employ thousands of people, or our emerging space industry. It would prevent the new Grocery Commissioner from starting his work to make grocery prices fair and supermarket shopping affordable, and there\u2019s much more. This Labour Government has no plans to reduce the capacity of Government in these vital areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d12cd541b84ea7af00a422ead51c2a\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What would be the effect of some of the other reported proposals about public services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022781b1e9079414e20b4abeb28d7b072b9\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: One of the proposals I\u2019ve seen is in relation to the Ministry for Women. That proposal would halt the Women\u2019s Employment Action Plan closing the gender pay gap, which has narrowed under this Government but still stands at 9.2 percent. Another reported proposal, in relation to the Ministry for Pacific Peoples, would mean abandoning the 2,700 people who have enrolled in programmes to support their pathway to homeownership, as well as the 1,350 people that the ministry has supported in jobs over the past year. A reported proposal in relation to Te Arawhiti, the Office for M\u0101ori Crown Relations, would significantly slow settling remaining claims related to the Crown\u2019s historical breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi and would slow or stop the work within Crown agencies and departments adopting modern Treaty relationships to address longstanding equity problems. This Labour Government has no plans to reduce capacity in these areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278d1733baa674b1089f078509caedfbd\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What other effects would a reported reduction of 14,000 core public servants have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7ea67db27d84e62bf5bc4acf6a39c4a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s likely that programmes like Mycoplasma bovis eradication and responding to the pandemic and natural disasters could not be staffed. It would also restrict the ability to develop initiatives such as targeted children\u2019s vaccination programmes for those missing out, and policy responses to organised and violent crime. This Labour Government remains committed to having a Public Service able to meet the needs of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c471905d9b7d430fa439b26b85921c49\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What would be the effect on the Wellington regional economy of a reported proposed reduction of 7,000 public servants who ordinarily work here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df4bb59593044e1e95263bf7d5cec9c4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The public sector is responsible for 12 percent of the Wellington region\u2019s GDP. The hit to the Wellington economy would be in the region of $1 billion per annum. This Labour Government remains committed to a Public Service providing the services that New Zealanders need and developing solutions for long-term difficult challenges rather than repeatedly kicking the hard policy cans down the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ad49d25f54a4072b0ce8b612f2268ab\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c88e9da5f00749248b058a09218f665a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c88e9da5f00749248b058a09218f665a\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Will she make the Common Practice Model a legal requirement for teachers to follow, and on what date will the final content of the Common Practice Model be published?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2419036c58b4338a37fd41c463376f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2419036c58b4338a37fd41c463376f0\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (M\u0101ori Education)) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Education: On behalf of the Minister of Education, the final Common Practice Model will be released in term 4 of 2023. Teachers are encouraged to use the new maths and literacy curriculum from 2024 and through 2025. It will become a legislative requirement from 2026. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248f2d41eadae401f937b3c1e9fdcf6de\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I didn\u2019t ask the Minister about the curriculum; I asked about the Common Practice Model, which is a completely different document to the curriculum. So the wrong question has been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be49348f13f44630ba2da38fbd20a9ff\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll repeat the last sentence: it will become a legislative requirement from 2026. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e51031a15f444d17bb3afeb7afdb9ebb\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Common Practice Model require Structured Literacy to be used to teach every student to learn to read?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d7b513173d401b9c7491cedca764ca\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: It will provide clarity to teachers so that they know what to teach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d11f0a7692946d7ada3f0c02a96ca8d\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can she explain to parents why it is that she\u2019s going to mandate a certain method that teachers will use to teach their children to read, but she won\u2019t say what that method is until after the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ac8be8333494a8981f37c969c8df8df\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the Common Practice Model will provide clarity to teachers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bdfae4181704121978ed3704123c2a9\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister provide any clarity to this House today on how parents will know, after the election, how their children will learn to read, and whether or not that will be Structured Literacy, which has been shown to be the best way to teach children to read?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022789a1d425ee24ac7acca5a3c9fe3dd63\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: We always trust the teachers, but when we provide clarity their practice will improve even more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022560d7acae5f54ad999d799de5af1fefc\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t the reason that she will not put her neck on the line and state what method of teaching reading will be compulsory prior to the election is because she\u2019s afraid of the controversy and cannot defend her position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee50028e66894ae89a9e5687634e470b\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not the case whatsoever. We\u2019ll trust in teachers and, as I said, the Common Practice Model will provide clarity to them on the best ways to teach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206ae5a14d1644fa8aaf02620553544f6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Racing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab5590e3d3a44962bd130d35294806d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab5590e3d3a44962bd130d35294806d8\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Racing: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand racing industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00226a4835e6a60e41429fe7912a6e92f5f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a4835e6a60e41429fe7912a6e92f5f9\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E Our racing industry is on the charge. This Australian season just gone, Kiwi-bred and -trained horses made up 8 percent of group 1 starters, yet won 30 percent of races. That\u2019s just one statistic to show the quality of the New Zealand racing industry. Racing is worth $1.6 billion to our economy, and that contribution is growing. This positive outlook is confirmed in the New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing (NZTR) statement of intent which notes, \u201COff the back of the recent approval of the TAB New Zealand-Entain strategic partnering arrangement, our industry has been given an opportunity for significant revitalisation. We now see the dawn of a new era for New Zealand racing, laying a platform for improved professionalism and standards right across the board\u201D. The statement goes on to say, \u201CWe are extremely heartened by the strategic arrangement, which has given NZTR the ability to plan with certainty for the next five years, and prioritise key areas of the business to promote growth.\u201D I note this statement was signed off by Cameron George, a person who knows a thing or two about revitalisation. Up the Wahs!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5364838139041d4a8bf18982dcf6b59\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister heard on the TAB-Entain strategic partnership? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeeb5c8bfcae4c508c0fa328b82ef20d\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: The leadership of the New Zealand racing codes have told me that the partnership is a game-changer. In my role as Minister, I had to be satisfied the partnership would be to the benefit of New Zealand racing before I could sign it off. The feedback I received on this has been universal. Industry leaders are reporting that stakes are up, funding for world-class harm minimisation is up, and payments to the racing and sporting codes are also up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253bceaabb8ad48e993378a37808c0716\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister heard on restoring the TAB legislative monopoly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e12bf0ea8b424ca3b2a1ad9148cdf97f\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Parliament was clear some decades ago that TAB should be the sole provider of racing and sports betting in New Zealand. This was done to ensure the New Zealand racing industry, one of the smallest in the world, would continue to be one of the best performing. At the time those regulations were passed, the explosion of unregulated, offshore, online competitors was not envisioned. With the Government\u2019s agreement in principle to restore TAB\u2019s monopoly, the industry have reported that this further improves the certainty of funding that goes to racing and sport. This is securing the future for those that love racing and sport, and those that work in the industry. This is another part of this Government\u2019s plan to bolster our emerging and high-performing export industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ac4555721e4ae18619138c1c8e9dc6\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: How many people are employed in the New Zealand racing industry, and what does this mean for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022988c78cb96784811a48bbdbd20a73b19\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: There are estimated to be around 15,000 people directly employed in racing. Providing certainty over how the industry is funded makes a career in racing an attractive prospect. In particular, racing provides an array of employment opportunities in regional New Zealand. I\u2019m advised that this certainty of funding gives the industry confidence to further develop apprenticeship and training programmes, and to take more young people on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002224c86031c8ae4222bb2ee4b7f4040f83\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Corrections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022 data-id=\u00223e949870a3ba436bb8a12e28f446c5d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e949870a3ba436bb8a12e28f446c5d8\u0022\u003ETONI SEVERIN (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Is it still the Government\u2019s policy to reduce the prison population by 30 percent over 15 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bccf99b01cfd4ec8852f78003d9dedd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bccf99b01cfd4ec8852f78003d9dedd0\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E When we became Government, there was a prison population crisis\u2014a moral and fiscal failure, according to Bill English\u2014which was predicted to see the population balloon to close to 14,000 people by now, far more than the network could accommodate. The long-term target we set reflected the situation at the time, one that could have seen measures such as triple and quadruple bunking and mattresses in prison hallways, and the possibility of using mothballed boarding schools out in the community. It is important to remember that Corrections does not decide who is sent to prison or for how long. Their contribution to the reduction in the prison population was through improving administrative processes for people eligible for release and also providing housing. The Government will continue to protect public safety and support the justice system to hold offenders to account, and I am progressing no specific policies to further reduce the total prison population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a69b922aed7d4ef5be619a71a99603aa\u0022\u003EToni Severin\u003C/span\u003E: Has his goal of 30 percent fewer prisoners in jail led to an increase in gang members and gang associates serving sentences in the community on electronic monitoring from 383 in 2017 to 738 this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022226e320dd68d4e628772f8dfd8e330e5\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, first of all, let\u2019s commend the police for doing a sterling job in arresting those people who are committing crime, those gang members. The proportion of people in prison who are gang members has increased substantially, and, because of the increases in arrests, I guess judges then are looking at various options for sentencing, which does include home detention, which does include incarceration as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222982e645e4ea4659a80f4c876c84374a\u0022\u003EToni Severin\u003C/span\u003E: Has his goal of 30 percent fewer prisoners in jail led to a situation where 917 violent offenders are in the community serving an electronically monitored sentence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258fbe486079944828a2185f3f1b36c96\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Corrections doesn\u2019t determine the sentence a prisoner receives, but it has prevented about 3,000 people from not being housed in mothballed boarding schools around the country. Now, I\u2019d hate to think about the community\u2019s safety if that had eventuated, as was predicted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e521b5330ab44b1842910d19084af80\u0022\u003EToni Severin\u003C/span\u003E: How is his goal of 30 percent fewer prisoners in jail not an experiment with public safety and an example of the Government failing to do its most important job of keeping people safe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241fa40108e6f4c69874753f8255df806\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s an insult to the judiciary, who make the decisions about the sentences people receive. Corrections\u2019 job is to house the people that judges send there and they do a good job. They also do a great job in making sure people don\u2019t reoffend, because you can see the reoffending and the re-imprisonment rates have decreased as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c40bd41b69b431a96d021b6a559688b\u0022\u003EToni Severin\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that we need more criminals, not fewer, in prison, and will he support ACT\u2019s policy of investing $1 billion to build an additional 500 prison beds to ensure dangerous people can be locked away from law-abiding New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a11212e1f64ade96ed6fe9b3485521\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I hate to think about the amount of taxes they would have to raise and increase and impose on poor working New Zealanders. The operating costs of prisons\u2014I mean, it costs billions not just to build a mega-prison, an American-style mega-prison like they want. It costs billions as well to operate them, huge costs imposed on the community, when we just need to really rely on the judiciary to do the job that they\u2019ve been charged with doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ad7d59ff66f4a13aa7a038a554c8177\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224586e036a8014feb9a65c2a3d00a1120\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224586e036a8014feb9a65c2a3d00a1120\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Does he stand by the Government\u2019s record on the delivery of light rail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221c22fef4145a4f1fa3a20d75c221010f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c22fef4145a4f1fa3a20d75c221010f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E A light-rail connection from the Auckland city centre to the airport is Government policy, as is progressing mass transit in Wellington, and that\u2019s what we\u2019ve been doing. The planning of these major infrastructure projects is critically important. I\u2019m told that his own party now regrets that they didn\u2019t plan for a public transport corridor when they widened State Highway 16, making the job of now adding the much-needed north-western busway both more difficult, more time consuming, and more expensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e465baf49994378a38d2d06b1d6c068\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen reports that zero metres of Auckland Light Rail have been built in the last six years, despite this Government spending over $140 million on this programme, and will he stand next to a giant red zero to celebrate this success?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b2007d6e09646868977632a474aa286\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sometimes that member puts a giant red target on himself. I mean, the member is facile in his assertions that everything is built under National and nothing is built under Labour. It was a Labour Government that planned the Waterview Tunnel; that did most of the work on State Highway 20. It was the National Government that finished it. It was the National Government that started the City Rail Link (CRL) after pressure from Opposition parties. The CRL has largely been completed under this Government. This Government has made major improvements to the State highway network. We finished Transmission Gully, the planning for which started under the prior Labour Government. The construction commenced under the National Government and finished under the Labour Government. These big projects take time and are, in duration, longer than any one Government, and the member needs to concede that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8da3a289f1541e2a3050fce4f4bfdde\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Was he aware that on the day that he announced light rail to Albany that\u2014to the day\u2014exactly six years earlier, Phil Twyford announced light rail to Mount Roskill, and considering the outcome of that light-rail project, what confidence does he have in delivering light rail to Albany?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6a2da1e3d9d4ae49e6279c637e86abb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: What I know is that State Highway 16, which is eight-lanes wide now close to Auckland\u2014eight-lanes wide\u2014has been expanded to six-lanes wide further out, and is already getting clogged up because the last, incompetent National Government didn\u2019t design the public transport corridor, didn\u2019t provide for it around the Waterview connection, notwithstanding that they were spending hundreds of millions of dollars on that connection, and, as a consequence, gridlock in Auckland down that corridor is getting worse. And we, on this side of House, have a plan to fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e98c1d378f6f4b12922d293ebd88602b\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports on the utilisation of large amounts of foreign capital to build our roading infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b20c537346d34989b81e0a2ccc5d6f22\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen reports of both funding holes in how other parties are going to fund their proposals, which amount to many billions of dollars, and that overseas capital will be brought in to do it. Of course, the idea that overseas capital is cheaper than Government borrowing is illusory, because the private sector expectations of rate of return are higher. As to where that capital comes from overseas, some people are suggesting Belt and Road, but we\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022339d7fbfc2c5412cb3bd1e755159b29b\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: When will he concede that Auckland Light Rail is a failed transport project that is going nowhere, has no funding, and instead invest in the real transport infrastructure projects New Zealand needs, like new roads of national significance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d1ce68d0224fb199e120e8d7cc3dcd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are some new roads that are necessary. The Brynderwyns improvement is one good example that this Government is committed to. A major highway project in Tauranga has also been committed to that is necessary to enable more housing. But the member\u2019s assertion that, essentially, roads are the answer is not true in metro areas like Auckland. We have spent billions and billions and billions of dollars on the likes of eight-laning parts of the north-western motorway, and because of that member\u2019s party not planning for it, we\u2019ve already got clogging up of that network, and fixing it with decent busway down that is much more expensive because of the incompetence of that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002263cb7744260949f3814dde739fca01c0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Youth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u00229504fe239f414c0da06dc39d92e3e2de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229504fe239f414c0da06dc39d92e3e2de\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Youth: What has the Government done to support our young people to make the most of their unique talents and have a sense of belonging and connection in their communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022043d127837e94c6f92a8c73a06127821\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022043d127837e94c6f92a8c73a06127821\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Minister for Youth):\u003C/span\u003E Young people represent 17 percent of the population and are 100 percent of our future. As Minister for Youth, I\u2019m immensely proud of what this Government has done to support young people across the country. During this term, we have worked to support rangatahi to be heard through the refreshed Youth Plan, to keep them engaged with education and training through increased funding of the \u0100konga fund, and have supported their innovative ideas through the youth enterprise programmes. Over the past three years, we have provided over 220,000 opportunities for young people to engage, supporting well over 100 providers every year to encourage and support the resilience and capability of young people and improve their overall wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba26e6dbc4454284a27f354f98532ac7\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: What was the focus of the recently released refreshed Youth Plan and how will it help young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298fa4f3c4eb64285bf080b4cb39d9797\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Last week, I launched the refreshed Youth Plan, titled Voice, Leadership, Action, which will guide a consistent approach across the youth sector and, along with the Youth Health and Wellbeing Survey, aims to inform the Government\u2019s policies and will ensure we are incorporating feedback from our rangatahi. The voices and leadership of young New Zealanders are key drivers behind the plan, and we all know how effective and powerful change can be when young people lead it for themselves and their wh\u0101nau, their schools, businesses, and communities. That\u2019s one of the reasons why the refreshed Youth Plan is such a great quality. Our youth advisory group worked on this plan with us\u201420 amazing young people with diverse knowledge and experience, who I have thoroughly enjoyed working with. We heard from over 1,400 young people from across the motu, and I\u2019d like to take this opportunity to thank them all for their amazing work and contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b94ada3b8da4095990d527311221a7a\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: What has this Government done to respond to the emerging needs of young people, especially those who have become disengaged from school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d00e01abeb5c4d79b1da1a739371cbe8\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: In 2020, we launched the \u0100konga Youth Development Community Fund in response to learners who had been hit hard by COVID and lost connections on their education journey. This fund helps at-risk learners, aged between 12 to 21 years, to strengthen their resilience and reengage with their communities and training opportunities. So far, almost 8,000 young people have benefited from the fund, helping them to reconnect with learning in their communities. Our recent evaluation of the \u0100konga fund has confirmed what providers and young people have told us\u2014that the Akonga fund is building the confidence of at-risk young people, fostering their relationships with peers, wh\u0101nau, and communities, and boosting their motivations and hope for the future. I was so pleased to announce extra funding in Budget 2023, and I\u2019m excited that it will offer a further 5,500 \u0101konga opportunities through this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd9e545db924031baaaf286da19394e\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: In what other ways has this Government supported providers to engage young people in development opportunities that strengthen their wellbeing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be772220a36f4cf8b57202af44a10548\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve funded providers from Invercargill to Kait\u0101ia to offer positive youth development opportunities that support young people to succeed in life and enjoy life, including giving them hands-on experiences to prepare them for work. During the past financial year, 160 providers delivered 82,000 youth development opportunities, providers like the Village Collective in South Auckland that I visited. This is just one example of the hundreds of programmes this Government has funded for young people and, through this, expanded their wellbeing and their opportunities to contribute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002241bbebec6763425d890d50803864ee92\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4f880ef2eae4a099eb84281f84ad286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4f880ef2eae4a099eb84281f84ad286\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: How many, if any, accredited employers have had their accreditation removed by Immigration New Zealand, and how many, if any, job tokens have been issued by Immigration New Zealand following an approved job check application from an accredited employer that is under investigation by Immigration New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8a7f294654943d5a67a21274456c2cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8a7f294654943d5a67a21274456c2cb\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E In response to the first part of the member\u2019s question, six employers have had their accreditation revoked by Immigration New Zealand and 11 have been suspended, and there are currently 185 investigations under way. To the second part of the question, there are currently 15 open job check applications, covering 87 positions, where the employer is under active investigation. Once a job check has been approved, the employer or their representative issues the job token to the migrant. If an employer has had their accreditation revoked or suspended, these job tokens expire and cannot be issued. Where an employer is under investigation but has not been informed, Immigration New Zealand ring-fences all work visa applications so that no further action can be taken in relation to them until the investigation is concluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222839d8aa0fd448f2b3b1e0e712f63d15\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister said on Radio New Zealand that \u201CEvery employer applying for accreditation was required to undergo a number of checks\u2014that they were in business, that the business was viable\u201D, but that not all of those businesses were undergoing the checks that should have been made, what is his understanding of what those checks were and how they should have been carried out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef5965bf625c4013946b9583e88e2a62\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The advice I have had is that there is a set of routine checks that should take place and that those checks have not been taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc3c55a4c764217abf562642209133a\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the routine checks at the accreditation stage that Immigration New Zealand were carrying out were not actual checks but simply a declaration form that businesses filled in online, that did not require any actual documentation, evidenced in his quote to this House a couple of weeks ago when he said, \u201CThe advice [that] I\u2019ve had is that employers are to provide a declaration in relation to the standards that they have to meet, which includes employment standards, \u2026 about their business.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022393fcca8953945dc98a9628a0e54d561\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member hasn\u2019t got it quite right. There are a number of requirements that the employer has to meet. Some of those requirements are checked on an automated basis. So, for example, checking the name of the employer against the database that Immigration New Zealand and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment have, against a list of employers who have either infringements against their name, prosecutions, or other negative checks. Then there are checks carried out at a human level to make sure that the documentation is in order. But not all of those checks, according to information received from staff members of Immigration New Zealand, appear to have been carried out. That is why I\u2019ve commissioned a review, an independent review, through the Public Service Commission, to ascertain just what the quality of the processing is of those applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a1604c4697d47cfa80cd2754e1d9b98\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Did officials inform the Minister about a general instruction from the Deputy Secretary of Immigration New Zealand telling staff to skip checks on almost all applications under the scheme, as reported in Stuff this week, in order to get as many workers in the country as quickly as possible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200f81518d34847a8b58e72919a2c7ea2\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not aware of any such instruction being given by senior officials of Immigration New Zealand, but that is why I have asked the Public Service Commission to arrange an independent review. That\u2019s in the process of being put in place at the moment. But I do want to remind the member of her position just two months ago on this matter, where she called for a process that was streamlined and did not have bureaucratic tape in the cost out. And I just say this to the rest of the House too\u2014why I think the National Party is weeping crocodile tears on this\u2014that in addition to wanting no bureaucracy at all in this, they voted against worker protection legislation earlier this year that is about giving officials more power to chase up bad employers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a3286f950c740e68d329323d01e7b30\u0022\u003ESale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd413e7808074620ba6c0f5a81c6e14d\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000632\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c967e1b570fd483abfaf9767128b42b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c967e1b570fd483abfaf9767128b42b7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Urgency will continue. Before the lunch break, we were debating the third reading of the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. Call No. 2 has concluded. We now have call No. 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00223f56190cd28448c89a87a7f9178cc02c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f56190cd28448c89a87a7f9178cc02c\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call in relation to the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill at its third reading. I\u2019d like to begin by thanking select committee members for a really robust process. Unfortunately, we weren\u2019t able to recommend that the bill be passed as a full committee but certainly the majority of the committee did. It was, however, a robust process. We received 420 submissions and heard from 80 submitters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m not surprised that we didn\u2019t get to agreement. I think, listening to the committee stage submissions, it was clear that the Hon Paul Goldsmith was really struggling to get his head around the fact that business exists within community\u2014that business exists within community and within society\u2014and so, yes, we did wrestle with the question of businesses who\u2019d been operating for a number of years and whether it was appropriate for District Licensing Committees (DLCs) and Alcohol Regulatory and Licensing Authorities (ARLAs) to be able to decline to renew a licence, and we landed on the fact that it was, and that it wasn\u2019t unusual for an entity to have to comply with new rules, with new research\u2014and, indeed, we do this all the time. We\u2019re asking this of businesses now in terms of our climate response, as well. It is not new at all. As the Minister pointed out in committee stage, it is an essential part of democracy that we listen to people and communities to decide what the appropriate rules are now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThere was also much made about the removal of the appeals process, but there is still an ability of entities to bring a judicial review should they wish to, so it is not removed in its entirety. If I speak briefly to the Opposition\u2019s objection to objectors, I would say there are very valid reasons why you would want people and entities from across the country submitting on these, and you only need to think a little laterally to understand who that might be. It might be that there\u2019s a group who are focused on harm to young people, who identify that there\u2019s a particular area in New Zealand where we\u2019ve seen alcohol harm at exaggerated levels. Should they be submitting? Absolutely. You might have mana whenua who aren\u2019t living in the area that they connect with who wish to submit in relation to an application. Should they be submitting? Absolutely. You might have someone who was affected by alcohol in a particular community who no longer lives in that community. Should they be allowed to submit? Absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThere were objections, believe it or not, to hearings being more accessible. I don\u2019t even know that I should respond to that, other than to say there is flexibility within clauses 14 and 15. So what the select committee did is provide a non-binding, non-exhaustive list of factors that the DLC could consider. This is all about putting decision making right on the ground levels where local authorities can be making the most relevant decisions for those communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThis is an excellent bill. I commend both the former and the current Ministers of Justice for bringing it before the House, as communities have asked for it, as local authorities have asked for it, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022565cb3d7e86c469c84f2fb83351eaaed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022565cb3d7e86c469c84f2fb83351eaaed\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. Good to take a call, although it feels, I suspect, for all members, a little bit of d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu. Because, of course, we\u2019re rushing this through urgency, which means we\u2019ve done the second reading, committee of the whole House stage, and now the third reading. So in some ways I\u2019m not going to be saying anything particularly new, including that National is not supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe key reason\u2014the key reason\u2014is that ultimately this is going to affect local businesses and good locals, neighbours and friends of ours, who run their businesses in a good, constructive way in the community. But the way that this bill has been structured is going to see some of those closed, or to create so much uncertainty into their business environment that it\u2019s incredibly unhealthy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI just want to tease that out very briefly. Look, first and foremost, I agree with the speaker who\u2019s just taken her seat, Vanushi Walters: alcohol harm is a problem in our society. How we address it has been a vexed question for as long as I\u2019ve been in Parliament, will be after I\u2019ve left, and has been well before I got here. We haven\u2019t got it right, but I don\u2019t believe this is the way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI just want to illustrate coming out my own electorate\u2014the great seat of T\u0101maki\u2014there are many liquor stores throughout the electorate. Many of them have been there for 10, 20, some of them 30plus years. I\u2019m not going to name them or particular people\u2014they may not, as liquor store owners, want to be mentioned in the House\u2014but they run an important service into the community. But a number of them, for example, are very close to schools. I\u2019m thinking of one, and I\u2019m not a cricket player but even I could just gently throw a ball from the front door of their liquor store and hit the local school\u2014not with any intention or malice. But we know with local alcohol plans\u2014and understandably these plans want to put guidelines in place to say, \u201CHey look, we really shouldn\u2019t set up a liquor store within 50, 100, 500 metres, say, of a school or a church or a community hall, a marae, whatever.\u201D Well, that makes sense, or somewhat can make sense, to a new facility. But it\u2019s been very clear as this law has been progressing through the House that that could also apply to existing businesses, which is what draws me back to my original point. Those existing businesses, like the liquor store owners in T\u0101maki and right across this nation, are going to find that their businesses, all of a sudden, are under threat. That at any moment, in effect, local alcohol policies could see them close down. Close down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAgain, I want to be really clear: this is not about the providers or liquor store owners who are providing poor service. Most, actually, are great. They\u2019re our friends, they\u2019re our neighbours, and they\u2019re our locals. I don\u2019t believe that degree of uncertainty should be put to them. That\u2019s toxic\u2014toxic\u2014to any business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecondly, as I say, I think New Zealanders\u2014certainly my T\u0101maki constituents\u2014will be very surprised and disappointed if someone who\u2019s been there for 30 years is closed down because of this bill. So, for that reason, almost alone, we\u2019re voting against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe other part of it, too\u2014and it\u2019s one of my particular concerns\u2014is the vexatious dynamic which could occur. We talk about community participation\u2014and let\u2019s take, for a moment, that\u2019s a good thing. I have no problem, actually, with the people of T\u0101maki wanting to talk about liquor stores in T\u0101maki. But I think it\u2019s important for anyone listening at home, and probably\u2014hello, Mum and Dad. That\u2019s at least two of the viewers; that might be all of them, who knows?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209ed6684763240a6bda7304b0113c2be\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: One of them might have gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c3332e43fe141629e930ead8c6c8b92\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: One of them might have gone, but\u2014well, I hope you don\u2019t mean literally gone. That would be a hell of a shock. Particularly to one of them. That was David Bennett, Dad, who made that interjection. You can call him later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut no, seriously, this is about the community. But actually, people anywhere in New Zealand\u2014anywhere within the Realm\u2014can actually be submitting on a liquor store in T\u0101maki. I don\u2019t know why they\u2019d need to do that, and I would argue it\u2019s somewhat vexatious. So I think it\u2019s too broad. But again, the fundamental reason is I think this is going to be detrimental to existing local businesses. With that, I cannot support this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u0022058b79713b94492b97803c0f190f1a1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022058b79713b94492b97803c0f190f1a1e\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure for me to speak on this bill, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. This is a very serious issue for communities of South Auckland and it is a pleasure for me to stand up and make a short call. This bill is long overdue. In a former role that I had, I was part of a community local board. We\u2019ve waited for 10 years, and still Auckland Council does not have an approved local alcohol policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThis bill is legislation that is needed by our local communities, and if I could just quickly reflect, in South Auckland there are far too many off-licence alcohol shops in a very narrow proximity. I want to reflect on my local community: there are eight local licences in a 1 kilometre radius; four off-licences, which is where we have the problem. The community leaders have had a number of calls to the local board, who are the governors of our local area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWhen this bill is passed, it does give the power back to our local communities to have a say. They go through some very stringent tests. What is important is the mana of our local communities, that our communities, our leaders, would have their say in local alcohol policy. In terms of objections, just to very quickly highlight: not all communities have this problem, but there are certain communities that do have this problem, so this bill will help those local communities who have to face alcohol harm. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00229a7d578a6cc74595acb1d4c6c9db052d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a7d578a6cc74595acb1d4c6c9db052d\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to speak to the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. We\u2019re in opposition to this bill. The bill states that the main objective is the sale, supply, and consumption of alcohol\u2014so make sure it\u2019s undertaken safely and responsibly and the harm caused is minimised, which is all great. But protecting communities by taking a sledgehammer to a nut is not the way, we think. We believe this bill is another attack on democracy and especially the right to appeal, which is almost unprecedented in the law in the situation we\u2019ve got around this country today; everyone has the right to appeal if they don\u2019t agree. And it\u2019s a sad day when a group of people is punished for defending themselves too well and being too successful in organising their case, and wearing a suit and tie should not be a factor in legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EMaybe we need to look at councils and try and work out why they are so poor at getting these local alcohol policies through and maybe give them some support. Instead, we are yet again attacking the businesses who are often part of that community. We\u2019re hearing from members talking about these shops as if they\u2019re a completely different entity; they\u2019re actually part of the community as well. Often the people go to the school together, all of that sort of stuff. They are actually part of the community. And businesses, over the last six years, have been under attack and that\u2019s been traversed so many times I\u2019m not going to bother today. The vindictive and vexatious complaints by interest groups has sort of been brushed over, but it\u2019s a very real concern from businesses, and to think that that\u2019s not going to happen is really a na\u00EFve way of understanding how people work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003ESupermarkets have indicated that they don\u2019t think it\u2019s necessary. They\u2019re going to need more security, are going to be more vulnerable, and they\u2019re worried about the extra rules that they\u2019re going to have to follow as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EI spoke last week to a healthcare worker who had been in the profession for quite a long time. He wanted to talk to me about alcohol harm and the abuse of alcohol and the agencies that were available in town and how to access them. We started talking\u2014we actually had a discussion, which is something that we don\u2019t have here very often; we just say what we think and get shot down by it. But we actually had a discussion and he was saying how he thought this bill\u2014he brought the bill up\u2014was a great bill, protecting communities, all of those sorts of things that it says it\u2019s going to do. And I put my view across that alcohol use is actually reducing anyway, and the idea of personal responsibility\u2014that people aren\u2019t forced to drink alcohol and behave the way they do\u2014and sort of pointed out the current rules that those in the alcohol industry actually have to abide by already. And suffice to say, I\u2019m not convinced, but he could well be voting ACT in October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EPeople have had enough of being treated like they\u2019re stupid, and they don\u2019t want to be babysat all through their lives. This bill is an overreach of council powers and is very undemocratic. It\u2019s aimed yet again at the lowest common denominator, and ACT opposes this bill. Thanks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002223946dc2711d4e0987bfc242a67d6805\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223946dc2711d4e0987bfc242a67d6805\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I\u2019m glad to take a call on this the final reading of the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill, which, of course, I\u2019d like to acknowledge had its genesis in my bill, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Harm Minimisation) Amendment Bill, and the community pressure and organising that we undertook to get to this point to force the Government to act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI did also want to respond to some of the points raised by members of the Opposition, particularly the ACT Party, which I\u2019ll get to in a minute. But I want to put it really, really clearly on the record and on the Hansard that those out there should be under no illusion whatsoever that the only reason that this legislation is currently passing through the House is because of the community organisation and mobilisation that has occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge members of the House, particularly those who have their roots in serving at a local board level, like Lydia Sosene and her contribution just before. I want to acknowledge those M\u0101ori health organisations who on the ground have been lobbying and working for this for a really long time. I also particularly want to thank Alcohol Healthwatch, notably and namely their former boss Dr Nicki Jackson, who I worked with over the past several years in trying to progress this kaupapa amongst many, many others, and the many hands that had their role to play in the \u201CPass the Bill\u201D campaign, which culminated in a petition handover of 8,000 New Zealanders supporting the passage of my alcohol harm minimisation bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI also want to shout out to Students for Sensible Drug Policy, who I know are watching along at home or at university, as the case may be. Students for Sensible Drug Policy and many of those in the drug-harm reduction space have been advocating for interventions just like this for time pretty much immemorial\u2014for evidence-based drug policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo what is it that we\u2019re talking about today? We\u2019re talking about how we can go about putting in place interventions to reduce drug harm, namely alcohol harm, because alcohol is, of course, a drug, albeit a legal drug. It\u2019s the drug that New Zealanders like to consume the most of all of the drugs available to us. Approximately 80 percent of adult New Zealanders consume alcohol and a quarter to a fifth of them do so to incredibly harmful ends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe question for those of us in this place should be, when confronted with a substance that can cause harm, how can we go about creating a regulatory framework to reduce that harm? As I\u2019ve said in this place many times before\u2014but I\u2019ll put it on the record at any opportunity I\u2019ve got\u2014there is a spectrum of approaches to that regulation that we can take. At one end of the extreme of the spectrum there is criminal prohibition. At the other end of the extreme, there is a complete legal unregulated free market. At both ends of those extremes we have the maximisation of harm, because whether it is criminal organisations operating in the black market or commercial organisations operating in the legal market, you have entities that are incentivised to exploit vulnerable communities to make a quick buck by shifting as much of their product as is possible. The way to reduce that harm is to minimise the profit incentive and to rein it into a space of sensible regulation that looks like dealing with the issues of demand as well those issues of supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does primarily is deal with the issues around the local alcohol policies process, and, actually, I would implore members of the Opposition, particularly the National Party. Their former Government passed the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012 ostensibly with the potential to empower local communities to put in place these local alcohol policies, but they at the last minute introduced this ability for special appeals processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ENow, this goes to the core point of what the ACT Party member was just putting on the table before, saying that somehow what this bill does is get rid of the appeals process. It does not. Special appeals, as outlined explicitly in the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012 as it currently stands are an anomaly amongst any other special appeals that may exist\u2014for example, vape shops, tobacco outlets, pokies, or other forms of social harm that exist. This is an anomaly; it is unusual and it exists only in the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012. The removal of that special appeals process, as actually recommended by the former Health Promotion Agency and a range of other NGOs that have worked in this space does nothing to remove the ability for judicial appeals and judicial review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIt is the right of any citizen in this country to appeal and take their case to the courts, to say that the legislation is not meeting those standards in the application of law in this country. It does not remove those judicial appeals. It simply removes the added special right of special appeals. I want to make that really, really clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe other point that was raised by the member of the ACT Party is that what we should be dealing with here or rather the way we should approach substances, particularly alcohol, is through the lens of personal responsibility. Let\u2019s just take that to its logical consequence. Why have any laws at all when we\u2019re talking about substances and how to go about reducing that harm? If we\u2019re talking about how we can create a regulatory framework under the social contract\u2014that is, this society and these communities and this country that we all live in\u2014we all accept that there are basic standards that we want to wrap around things that can potentially be harmful, and that, of course, is the point of the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012 and, further, the amendments that are being made to this day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EFar too frequently I hear personal responsibility being used as a rationale for an abdication of political responsibility and, indeed, for creating a narrative and whipping up this construct of choice. There is not actually too much in the way of meaningful choice and ability for community participation under the present way that the local alcohol policy process works with the ability for those special appeals to be utilised, particularly, I might add, by our supermarkets, which the ACT Party member mentioned, overwhelmingly oppose this. Well, it just so happens that they are the overwhelming entity that continues to use that special appeals process to steamroll over community willpower being implemented through the local alcohol policy process\u2014like, these things are kind of connected, and that\u2019s where power lies in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI also want to point to some of the points alluded to in the ACT Party member\u2019s speech around other interventions that may potentially reduce harm. When we\u2019re talking about drug harm reduction, other opportunities to reduce that harm, of course, look like, for example, safe consumption spaces. Here I point to on-licences where there\u2019s a duty of care for those who are engaged in the sale and supply to create a space, an environment, that is supposed to be more conducive to somewhat less harmful consumption of that substance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe point that this bill misses\u2014which obviously the broader campaign that led us to this point after my member\u2019s bill, the alcohol harm minimisation bill, was drawn, and kicks to touch and does not deal with\u2014is the issue of glamorisation and normalisation of alcohol in our communities, which actually has been identified by the World Health Organization, and one of the best buys in terms of reduction of drug harm could be to remove advertising and sponsorship throughout our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo I implore the Government to continue with that piece of work. I had a lot a lot of engagement with the former Minister of Justice, Kiritapu Allan, and I want to acknowledge her for the work she did for getting this bill into shape and initially bringing to the House. This is a legacy piece of work and a really, really important one at that. There is still so much more work to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EFinally, I just want to address some of the contributions particularly from National Party members, around, for example, how it is the case that currently existing businesses should override our consideration of not only the evidence but of community need and want with regard to reducing harm\u2014community wellbeing. And here they were talking about, obviously, the sale and supply of alcohol. I\u2019d ask them for some logical consistency on that point, because they could apply that logical consistency to, for example, tobacco or to vaping or to other substances that are currently illicit under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975 but which we continue to see substantive proliferation of throughout our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand is the only party that can stand in this House and say that we have a consistent approach to all substances that is an evidence-based approach to reduce harm through sensible regulation, minimising the profit motive as much as is possible, and tackling the reality that right now we continue to spend four times as much money on enforcing criminal prohibition, with worse and worse outcomes, than we do on a health-based approach, and our communities are all the poorer for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAll of that said, I\u2019m proud to support this bill today. I want to again acknowledge the grassroots communities that have organised to build a mandate for this, and I\u2019m stoked to see that the Government is nicking another piece of our homework. But I\u2019d invite them to go full hog and deal with that issue of cultural norming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022737e54e15c29455e92aecbb0b5f75383\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022737e54e15c29455e92aecbb0b5f75383\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E It is with great pride that I can acknowledge Henare O\u2019Keefe from Flaxmere District Council and also Des Ratima, who was the mayor of Whakat\u016B\u2014two men who worked tirelessly in Flaxmere to try and prevent an alcohol liquor licence being repeated in Flaxmere in a store. They fought tooth and nail, but they didn\u2019t have the tools through a local plan to be able to fight this. They know, and I know, Des would be so, so thrilled that this bill is going through today that finally puts those decisions in the hands of locals. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00226433a740908945328c0d55815666ea56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226433a740908945328c0d55815666ea56\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on Nicola Grigg for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00224b4836a11e304cbf8ab2a21ddce57985\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b4836a11e304cbf8ab2a21ddce57985\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just a brief call from me just to outline further our opposition to the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI think the aim of this bill is worthy; we would all acknowledge that alcohol does cause harm to some people and communities in our society. But the fact that this bill is removing the safeguards that are currently in place for some parties and/or organisations and/or agencies to overturn community decisions, at times, when necessary\u2014we think that that\u2019s where the bill has, unfortunately, fallen short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAs I just said, we do acknowledge that alcohol misuse does cause serious harm in our communities and that alcohol abuse is a very complex situation that needs a multi-pronged attack to solve it. We do support harm reduction initiatives that do work alongside community institutions. But, as I said, we do disagree with removing the appeals process for local alcohol policies. We would rather see the process improved than eliminated or banned all together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe do think that the current system, particularly with respect to the speed, is not fit for purpose. But as I say, we would rather see it improved that abandoned altogether, because it does make the assumptions that local authorities will always get it right. We\u2019d like to think they all do, but we\u2019re all human; people do make mistakes at times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe do want to ensure that an appeals process remains in place, because we do think that it does bring an additional safeguard, and, yes, we do acknowledge that businesses will struggle, and to the member from the Greens who thinks that that\u2019s a dreadful position for us to take, we actually do come down on the side of business. We\u2019ve got to think of everybody who\u2019s being impacted by this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo as I said, we\u2019d rather see solutions to where the problems are than an outright ban. We think that the current system is flawed and can be improved, but we don\u2019t think that this bill is the vehicle by which to do that. So, with that, we continue our opposition to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00228040ad4d38cd468cb1d58635f9a03fba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228040ad4d38cd468cb1d58635f9a03fba\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a short call and I want to focus on a colleague of mine, Lydia Lemauga Sosene, because she was a person that brought this to my attention in particular. She is a person who has spent a lot of time in South Auckland on a local board, and this is an area which mattered to her because she saw the impact on one of our poorest communities. It has a devastating impact. This is work that she\u2019s had in progress for a long time. She has coupled it with things like looking at the needs to improve housing and make sure we have the minimum wage. This is Labour values; this is about local communities being able to deal with things\u2014and it\u2019s a recognition of power imbalance. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002220ac001a45284ee6af6d7c6149298da9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220ac001a45284ee6af6d7c6149298da9\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E The Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act was passed in 2012 and local authorities such as Auckland Council developed their provisional local alcohol plans in 2015\u2014and I\u2019m well aware of that because I was an elected member of that council as that process was being worked through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E Local alcohol plans, which are a good part of that legislation passed by the previous National Government, were a mechanism whereby local communities\u2014with wide-ranging input from communities, residents, businesses, and experts\u2014were able to develop an evidence-led policy to manage and minimise alcohol harm within communities. We are standing here, eight years after those plans were developed by communities, without them having been implemented, because of large players\u2014not mom and pop operations, let\u2019s be real. The major supermarket chains and the major liquor chains have abused their ability through the courts to delay and obfuscate the implementation of these plans against the wishes of communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThere is much in this bill that is to be commended, but for the particular fact that it will enable local alcohol plans to be implemented that will help to minimise harm; that represent the interest of communities and will stop the big players from blocking those, I heartily commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a83686e9d26e4ca78a8f4e969b836576\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a83686e9d26e4ca78a8f4e969b836576\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party is not supporting this bill. We did support, and we introduced in Government, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act. This is an amendment to that bill, with the interesting brackets in it, \u201C(Community Participation)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThroughout the debate, all through today, we\u2019ve heard Labour members, particularly, talking about \u201Ccommunity, community, community\u201D. Well, I asked the Minister during the committee stages to please define \u201Ccommunity\u201D. And he didn\u2019t because he can\u2019t because this bill makes it possible for anyone anywhere in New Zealand to oppose any application for either a new licence or a variation anywhere in the country. If anyone thinks that that somehow is representative or a way of representing the views of the community, they\u2019re wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been really surprised by the way Labour members have approached this. If anyone doubts in this country that the sentiment of the Temperance Union has died, they\u2019ve only got to listen to the debates today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWhat is particularly irritating is that most of those facilities throughout the country operate without a problem. Of course there are problem outlets, but there are problem outlets in almost any activity in the commercial sector and, frankly, the Government sector. So that\u2019s what should be dealt with\u2014not this blanket approach to putting a sword of Damocles over any operator anywhere in the country, as this provision does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI make that point because if we\u2019re going to talk about the word \u201Ccommunity\u201D, then surely that large majority of people who live in our suburbs, who live in our cities, who live in our rural areas who just assume that, \u201COf course there\u2019s going to be a local pub; of course I can buy a wine at the local cafe if I want to; of course I can go down to my neighbourhood tavern.\u201D They assume it\u2019s going to be there, and they assume that it\u2019s going to be operating properly, and they assume that there is a body out there keeping an eye on how that operation is undertaken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe have the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act, which is a very voluminous piece of legislation that puts massive duties on anyone who operates in those types of outlets, and they are very seldom abused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo here we have, really, a bill that\u2019s salving what is, I think, a very loud group in some communities, who are saying, \u201CWe can\u2019t have these things.\u201D It is, as I said before, the Temperance Union sentiment on steroids. I think it\u2019s a great shame because it assumes that anyone who opposes these things is from the community, when the vast majority of people in the community just assume the law is there to give them the opportunities that they might occasionally want to avail themselves of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAs for the Green comments today, I was staggered by that. How that Green member can stand up here and talk about the damage and harm from alcohol and then have a sentiment and a history and a policy to legalise marijuana is absolutely beyond me. It just has to really show that there is a particular bias against the operators of these sort of establishments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI will conclude comments there, simply saying that this is bad legislation, it is selective legislation, it is pernicious; it does not look at the problems of alcohol harm and why that is prevalent in some communities and not in others. It is the sort of legislation that makes people feel good, but will make very little difference to outcomes. Does anyone really think that if a number of bars in New Zealand were just down to the same level as cigarette outlets, for example, that people would just say, \u201CI\u2019m not going to any more. No more beers on a Friday night for me.\u201D? No, they\u2019ll go to somewhere where it\u2019s available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo understand what \u201Ccommunity\u201D means, understand what society is, deal with the problems in it; don\u2019t start putting restriction on choice on everybody because of a particular bias that someone might bring to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00224f01ec806c424730a9c16af19c2dcd44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f01ec806c424730a9c16af19c2dcd44\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to stand and speak on this bill. It\u2019ll be a quick speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI\u2019m delighted to support this bill. Having worked in the family violence and sexual violence elimination space for many years, we know what alcohol harm contributes to that space. And also, having worked in the environmental space, we know that our communities of poverty, our communities that have the least resources, have the most alcohol outlets and they also have the least ability to stand up to the large organisations out there who are pushing back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe are getting rid of the adversarial nature of people having their say in community. We\u2019re all community members. We all get to have a say. It isn\u2019t about us having a drink or going down to the pub and having things closed down. We all agree that there should be the opportunity to do these things, but this bill is about the whole of the community having a say and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b6d67a0e132540c29dfb23b2b66a5a97\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 38\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 29; ACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000699\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002226b24839d53848dd9d993d9d5f43f57b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226b24839d53848dd9d993d9d5f43f57b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Legal Services Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f7fc75ad8c0483586e4d49285783722\u0022\u003ELegal Services Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fccfd0e09c8a40b9bdfc87b8bc591776\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f31a478252a45f0a2b0fe92ab50f31d\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca6099becc194faca5112412b4e469f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca6099becc194faca5112412b4e469f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we are in committee on the Legal Services Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259918cc224f84f99940032e06b9102f6\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236e54575142d4147a22af51eb013ad74\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Are there any objections? There are none. The question is that Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1a73e937ec94f07a4ddea8a5fdf5a47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1a73e937ec94f07a4ddea8a5fdf5a47\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity, and I look forward to engaging with the Minister in the chair, Rachel Brooking, on this subject, as well as other members of the committee as we consider this important area of legal services. And I should start by saying that our reservations about the legislation remain from previous stages of the debate and also the select committee stage, and also the overall context of our justice system and, more particularly, the dysfunction of our courts, which is quite simply that they are in disarray. The backlogs are unforgivably large; far too little of substance has taken place to reduce these, and, if any doubt existed in that matter, the results and the implications for Kiwis\u2019 lives struggling to access justice should leave no watcher, or listener, of the debate in any doubt of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo while we would acknowledge that legal services through the legal aid regime are important, and that\u2019s naturally a system that needs protection so far as it goes, the elephant in the room is not being addressed, and we are far too far along the road of fundamental issues in our court system not being addressed to be content merely with such tinkering as this. In particular, I\u2019d like to ask the Minister to address the subject of whether this measure will do anything to improve access to justice when it comes to timeliness of justice and the expense involved in taking matters to court, as opposed to merely kicking cans down the road whereby we have, for example, the waiving of interest on debt, which, in itself, we think will have an unintended consequence of making people less likely to be prepared to pay and the moral hazard that\u2019s associated with that of some choosing to pay as is required and others not doing so and facing no sanction, or, more to the point, no incentive for not acting in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo those are some initial points. Some have been framed as questions; however, it\u2019s a statement of position and I\u2019d welcome the Minister\u2019s response on any or all of those and I look forward to the discussion that, no doubt, will continue at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022daf7e97e4e2a406588ce6e832f15cd8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022daf7e97e4e2a406588ce6e832f15cd8a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As the member Chris Penk has just noted, this bill does have a very narrow scope and it is just about repealing that user charge and also getting rid of interest on unpaid legal debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing to his point about access to justice, this bill is all about access to justice and it definitely is related to the expense incurred by people who are going to struggle to pay legal fees in the civil jurisdiction and need legal aid. So it will help with the expense issue. The bill is not about timeliness, and that\u2019s out of scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1179ab7d2124ef9b9f027f77a2e6137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1179ab7d2124ef9b9f027f77a2e6137\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wonder if the Minister in the chair, Rachel Brooking, could respond with her view on whether it would improve legal access, even within the realm of legal aid, to actually increase its applicability, for example, to victims of crime or those involved in the coronial system where eligibility doesn\u2019t currently exist. Would that not be a better use of the equivalent resources, as compared with allowing those to access services without any cost or co-payment or interest payable whatsoever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c62a82a6445c422383e3a4ae440ae9ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c62a82a6445c422383e3a4ae440ae9ea\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I suppose the first question is the question of the impact of removing interest on legal aid debt. Just for the background of people tuning in to this debate on the Legal Services Amendment Bill, when people go before the courts, it\u2019s an expensive business. I think one of the first things that one learns from reading Dickens or anything is to try and avoid going to court if at all possible, because it\u2019s never a good situation, whether it\u2019s a civil case or criminal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere are sort of three categories: those who just are on their own\u2014they pay for it\u2014then there\u2019s another category of people who qualify for legal aid based on income and the ability to pay, and that legal aid covers the cost of all their work and it\u2019s a grant. So they are helped to defend themselves if they need to, or if they\u2019re wanting to take some sort of case and they meet that threshold. So that\u2019s the most vulnerable group who don\u2019t have the resources and they get a grant of legal aid to help pay their defence, or whatever the case may be. The intermediary group are people who have a higher income and a greater ability to pay, and so the legal aid that they get to pay for their defence or their lawyers is given by way of a loan, with the expectation that it should be paid back. Currently, there is some interest that is applied to that in order to encourage people to pay back that debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis bill does away with that interest, and, of course, there is a real cost in that. I\u2019d be interested to hear from the Minister the best estimates of the cost. Of course, it\u2019s more highly relevant at the moment, because interest rates are going up because inflation is running amok, and that\u2019s a broader topic around economic management which I won\u2019t go into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIf you look at it in the context of student loans, the rule of thumb was that every $10,000 that was loaned out had to be written down immediately by about 40 percent on the Government\u2019s books, because that was the cost of it being paid back over a long period of time and the value of that $10,000 reducing in purchasing power because of inflation. I would\u2019ve thought that with interest rates rising again, then that cost will be going up and so the write-down will be more significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo, in terms of the many\u2014and, you know, we spend a lot on legal aid; I haven\u2019t got the figure right in front of me, but a couple of hundred million a year springs to mind, or something in that vicinity. So the amounts that are loaned out\u2014if we\u2019re immediately writing down 40 percent of that loan because there is no interest applying, then that becomes a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe simple question is: is that the best use of scarce resources in the broader justice system? Because I don\u2019t think anybody would deny that there is a huge amount of need in the broader justice area for well-targeted and well-focused interventions. So my fundamental question to the Minister is: how has she assured herself\u2014and, of course, if you look at the documents, it was Kris Faafoi who kicked this all off as Minister of Justice, and then it was Minister Kiri Allan that, I think, introduced the bill to the House, and now Ginny Andersen trying to ram it through in the very dying days of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister in the chair is: how is she assured that this is the best use of spending? Our basic proposition is that, actually, the better thing for the Government to be focused on is actually the much broader and more difficult issue of speeding up the process of the courts. So it\u2019s a question of priorities there, and that\u2019s my first question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222df4daebb9114485991d85d19c38fc44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222df4daebb9114485991d85d19c38fc44\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Hon Paul Goldsmith for referencing Dickens and a number of other matters in his contribution. Going to his point, I think the main question there was around the interest and the cost of that. Of course, those decisions were made in the Budget, because at the moment the Budget has already provided, since the start of this year, that there is no charge and no interest, but the cost of that will be about $600,000 per annum. The decision goes back\u2014as the member noted, a number of different justice Ministers have been involved and there was the 2018 review, and this piece of legislation goes back to that review. Of course, it is, as I\u2019ve already said, narrow in scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker Chris Penk was asking about the coroner\u2019s court, and I\u2019m told that, in fact, legal aid can be assessed in coronial matters if the coroner declares an inquest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022627c1e2cf4614a74bd75bb603a42d0d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022627c1e2cf4614a74bd75bb603a42d0d0\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m delighted that we\u2019ve reached the stage of the urgency business of the House that we\u2019re discussing Charles Dickens. For newer members who might not have watched my maiden statement\u2014or those who did or forgot or were not paying attention at the time\u2014I referenced no fewer than four Dickens novels. I sort of wove them into it, and Great Expectations was an obvious one. Bleak House, too, which kind of feels quite appropriate right now, and I forget the others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn any case, I think what we have reached is the stage where the Minister has explained the current regime and the justification for it, but what I think is important for everyone who is listening to the debate to note\u2014anyone who may be listening to the debate. I don\u2019t know how many there are outside the Chamber; I don\u2019t know how many are inside the Chamber, either, for that matter. But there already exists a mechanism for \u201Cjust and equitable reasons\u201D\u2014that there can be an exemption of legal aid debt already, so this relates to grounds of financial hardship or any other reasons the applicant believes should be considered. So I wonder if the Minister can explain how\u2014with such a mechanism already available\u2014it should be necessary to apply a blanket rule such as this, whereby the application of a waiver or an exemption can, effectively, be applied to all and therefore miss the opportunity to narrow down that assistance to those cases where it is most needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7990801d0af4536b4e8fb648b0f9aa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7990801d0af4536b4e8fb648b0f9aa2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Look, the only other question I have is around the Minister\u2019s confident assertion that it will cost about $600,000 a year\u2014I question that. And I suppose the obvious place to start is the impact that it may or may not have on behaviour: firstly, in taking on more debt because it doesn\u2019t necessarily have to be paid back or there are no consequences for taking much longer to pay it back. And then, secondly, the changing attitude towards paying it back if there is no incentive to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen I look at the regulatory impact statement, and it says \u201CWe\u2019ve included analysis done on the second option\u201D\u2014but the basic constraint that the reviewers said was that there was a limited and unreliable data is collected on legal aid applications and recipients, which seemed like a pretty broad statement. So we\u2019ve got a very confident assertion that it\u2019s going to cost $600,000, which doesn\u2019t sound like much, but we\u2019ve also got statements saying that, you know, basically, the analysis is done on limited and unreliable data collected on legal aid applications or recipients. So I\u2019m just wondering how confident the Minister is in her assertions, because ultimately\u2014like I say, it\u2019s just a question of judgment. Are you better to spend the money, even further changing the thresholds, for example, for people to get access to legal aid? Or is a Government\u2014really, if it\u2019s interested in dealing with this problem\u2014better to be focused on the core issue which is speeding up the processes of the courts? And I suppose our fundamental critique of the Government\u2019s justice policies\u2014or one of the fundamental critiques\u2014is that a question of priorities, and the priority on speeding up process of the courts and the efficiency of the courts hasn\u2019t been as high as we would have liked it. They\u2019ve been distracted with such things as hate speech, reducing the voting age, and a whole bunch of other things which may not be of interest but are not fundamental to the way the justice system works as this is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f25d2c95a0c64ae9b3f7fe25f7d04a5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f25d2c95a0c64ae9b3f7fe25f7d04a5a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think again\u2014obviously I repeat that the scope of this bill is narrow and does not go to the speed of the justice system, as the member\u2019s just been discussing and realises\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3e432429ed94c579a166a41b488190c\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Context, context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac59f7836444e4884ad52548d044ac7\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, giving the context! And both the previous speakers are really asking the same question, and that is about the justification for spending the money on not having the interest cost versus other things within the justice system. That question was looked at by the Legal Services Commissioner in 2018 in the report, and they determined that \u201Cremoving the requirement of the payment of interest for all users of the legal aid scheme\u2014rather than writing off more debt\u2014best met the objective of reducing financial barriers to legal aid so that people of insufficient means could better access justice\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226663c989e4554189a34c74cfb25db159\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 84\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; ACT New Zealand 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te\u00A0Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 29\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 29.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000729\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000730\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022951c85b885bc4f4085a1335be688b49a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022951c85b885bc4f4085a1335be688b49a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Legal Services Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0d3747bb6724e918243363a2be74e09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0d3747bb6724e918243363a2be74e09\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d654eac1a8746cc93cffbf0b8e9ffeb\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002219698b5806b84eaf8b9d54906c2baf56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219698b5806b84eaf8b9d54906c2baf56\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I present a legislative statement on the Legal Services Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0127ba6f7d341328909c1e46f1d4cbe\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225223e28856514c91b3ec37671a096b71\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe Legal Services Amendment Bill addresses two barriers to accessing legal aid. By removing the user charge and the payment of interest from the Legal Services Act, it will give enduring certainty to users of the legal aid scheme that they will not have to pay a user charge to access the scheme designed to support them, and that the amount that they are required to repay will not continue to increase as they pay it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe user charge was designed to make people think carefully about whether to engage in legal aid. Not only is this unnecessary, in that people who are eligible for legal aid are on low incomes therefore the decision to take on debt will be a serious one, but also it\u2019s a financial barrier to people who want to or need to use the legal aid scheme to access the justice system. Sometimes, to avoid this charge being applied, legal aid providers\u2014that is the lawyers, are known to absorb the user charges themselves. This means that in some cases legal aid providers have to take a financial hit to provide their services. This is a workaround that shouldn\u2019t be needed. It\u2019s good to be removing this barrier to legal aid funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EInterest payments were introduced to encourage people to pay down their debt. What interest payments assume, however, is that people using the legal aid system actually have the money spare to make payments that pay their debt down faster. In reality, legally aided people cannot afford to pay their debts down quickly. It will take time for them to pay the debt down, especially if they owe other debts to Government that need to be paid down first. In the meantime, the debt continues to grow as the interest continues to accrue. It can be demoralising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere are other options that encourage legal aid recipients to make efforts to pay down debt, too. This includes placing caveats on property and issuing deduction notices so the payments are taken directly out of their bank account. Charging people more money is not a useful method to encourage payment of legal aid debt. Some people might call these changes \u201Ctinkering\u201D, but for the people who need to use the legal aid scheme, it is far from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s not forget the positive difference that these changes will make to low-income New Zealanders, who, without Government support, would be unable to access justice and assert their rights. We are committed to improving access to justice, and this bill makes up just one part of the ongoing efforts to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe changes in this bill formed just one part of the Budget 2022 package to increase access to the legal aid scheme. In January this year, we increased eligibility and repayment thresholds for legal aid recipients. Wage inflation has slowly eaten away at these thresholds, meaning that people who meet the criteria for legal aid in 2008 would not qualify in 2022, despite having no material change in their circumstances. We increased eligibility thresholds by 15 percent, making another 93,000 New Zealanders eligible for legal aid. This goes some way to offset inflation and make sure that New Zealanders who should be able to access legal aid are eligible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe also increased repayment thresholds by 16.5 percent, meaning people will be asked to pay back their debts at a level that more accurately reflects their income and ability to pay. Last year we increased legal aid provider remuneration by 12 percent in recognition of the important and essential work that legal aid providers do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn all, these changes will ensure that more people are eligible for legal aid funding, that more recipients won\u2019t be unnecessarily burdened with repayment obligation, and that providers of legal aid services are more fairly compensated for the very important work they do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ELastly, I want to acknowledge those who have contributed to the bill. I\u2019d like to thank the Justice Committee for their consideration of the bill, and also to acknowledge those who took the time to make a written oral submission on the bill when it was a select committee. Thank you to those submitters for your time and for sharing your views.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe have a duty to provide accessible, high quality legal advice to New Zealanders who otherwise couldn\u2019t afford it, via the legal aid scheme. This bill is a step towards improving that accessibility, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225034bfc933c54714b999974cd7c0b961\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225034bfc933c54714b999974cd7c0b961\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cecf66ad55904f1faa50bdde61b99882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cecf66ad55904f1faa50bdde61b99882\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The National Party is not supporting this bill, and it reminds me of and it sort of has all the look and feel of a member\u2019s bill, actually. It\u2019s five pages long and it\u2019s the sort of thing that you would expect a backbencher to throw into the ballot and it might come up. But this has been, apparently, the focus of Government officials and the previous Minister of Justice, Kiritapu Allan, and, before that, Kris Faafoi, and now, currently, Ginny Anderson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ELook, it\u2019s not a newsflash: this Government has a clear majority and they will pass this legislation, and that will be that. We are in the second to last week of this term, and this is one of many bills that they\u2019re passing through. The point we make, ultimately, is that it\u2019s just emblematic of the failure to deal with the big issues effectively under six years as Minister of Justice\u2014or six years of Government\u2014and a kind of a flick right at the very end, as if to say, \u201CAren\u2019t we clever? This is what we\u2019ve done.\u201D Meantime, the inflation adjustments for the basic sort of work has only gone some way, as the Minister said, to dealing with inflation and so it\u2019s a question of choices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo when we look at the challenges facing the justice system as a whole, we identify three major issues round the increase in violent crime, increase of youth crime, and having to have a more effective response to that. But the third big issue\u2014fundamental issue\u2014is this broader context of access to justice being denied by an incredibly slow, cumbersome, and expensive system where people\u2019s lives are kept on hold for years, waiting to grind their way through the Family Court processes or the Employment Court processes or the Criminal Court processes or any other process. In fact, in the civil courts, it basically just doesn\u2019t work at all. If somebody steals $100,000 from your business, the whole process is so expensive and so cumbersome and so untimely and so uncertain that it\u2019s basically not worth doing anything about it, which is unbelievable that we can\u2019t design a system that works for those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo this grinding, slow process of the Family Court and all those other courts, year in and year out, is what creates this massive cost and problem, because every time that the lawyers go off to some meeting in the Family Court and at the last moment it\u2019s cancelled for some reason because somebody\u2019s not ready, and there\u2019s no consequences for not being ready\u2014it just rumbles on. There\u2019s no discipline in the whole process. Some judges will use AV material and some won\u2019t. They don\u2019t like it for some reason, but I don\u2019t know why\u2014there is a whole heap of issues as to why the court processes are slow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EOur primary critique is that instead of focusing on dealing with that issue effectively, they\u2019ve done all sorts of other things. They\u2019ve started a plethora of projects and programmes that are under way. We just heard that finally, after six years, they\u2019ve led a project to upgrade the IT systems for the court processes\u2014well, that\u2019s good, finally\u2014and there\u2019s things on various other rules. There are projects under way, but it has been very slow, haphazard, and it hasn\u2019t been anywhere nearly a bigger priority as it should have been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216f6e4c761e444d2951ec9ba2a53f0e2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let\u2019s put a priority on going to the bill now. You\u2019ve had a pretty good five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f39a0e2b3fcd49cebfa3d48d9dcea867\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the important context. That\u2019s the context\u2014it\u2019s just the context of the bill. The Government has had six years to get around to it, and I\u2019ve only had five minutes and I still haven\u2019t. I\u2019m just warming up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f9fc8fbf7654fda8b71055ddf08c771\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And you still haven\u2019t got to the bill. Everything is proportional, Mr Goldsmith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3374c3a7f844f88f12c84ef35def72\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Six years, they\u2019ve had, and so what we\u2019ve got instead is this bill, which does two things, as the Minister did point out\u2014two things. First, it does away with the $50 administrative fee. Frankly, if people are desperate for justice and they want to achieve justice and they\u2019re looking to solve a horrendous problem in their life in some way, $50 doesn\u2019t seem to me to be an insurmountable barrier for New Zealanders. So it\u2019s all a matter of priorities for where the Government puts its money. You can choose between changing the thresholds further for which people have access to legal aid\u2014you could do that\u2014or you could do what is being proposed by this bill, which is do away with that payment and then take away the interest payments for the loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s pretty simple, really. If you don\u2019t have to pay any interest on the loan, then there\u2019s no incentive to pay it back at all or in any hurry. So the rest of the community ends up picking up that bill. The point of the process is that those who are really desperately in need get legal aid as a grant. This is the second category of people who would get it as a loan, who have more resources and more ability to pay. They\u2019ve been considered by the system as able to repay that debt, but if we do away with the interest, then that\u2019s very unlikely that they\u2019ll do so. That has a cost, and so the question is whether this is a good use of that money or whether it would be of better use with higher thresholds, higher payments, to legal aid people or other areas of the justice system, and we\u2019re not convinced by the argument of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, secondly, we would have preferred, like I say, that the Government\u2014because these bills, even though this one is, like I say, five pages and looks sort of like a member\u2019s bill, it still takes the focus and energy of the Ministry of Justice and the officials. We\u2019ve been through the process in the select committee and we\u2019ve listened to all the submissions, and I do want to thank the chair of the Justice Committee, Vanushi Walters, who has conducted herself, I think, very well and in good spirits. We\u2019ve heard from many\u2014well, we didn\u2019t hear from many submitters, but we heard 10 submissions through the process, and we were well advised by the Ministry of Justice people. So it\u2019s all just a question of what you focus on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the Ministry of Justice was working on this and they were doing that and we all had this group together while they were also doing other things like the hate speech and reducing the voting age and all those sorts of things, when I would argue that they would have been far better to have had a laserlike focus\u2014which the Prime Minister talks about from time to time\u2014on dealing with the big issue in the justice sector, which is how we get a much quicker resolution to the cases and a speedier application of justice. Ultimately, we look at it very much from the perspective of the consumers of justice, which is the people who want to get (a) justice for something that\u2019s been done to them, or (b) the dispute or the thing that they\u2019ve been accused of resolved in a timely matter so that they can get on with their lives. They can take the punishment, if they need to, but then being able to get on with their lives, or get the payment that they need to or get the resolution to the problem that they have dealt with so they can get on with their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat needs to be the No. 1 focus of the Government in this space and we\u2019ve gone backwards, badly backwards, over the last few years. COVID didn\u2019t help and, in fact, I think some of the reactions to it went too far and slowed us down further than it should have. But the response has been too slow and given insufficient attention by the Government and the officials under their direction. So that is why we think this is tinkering at the edges when there\u2019s so much more important work that should have been done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f29515f6cc284f27aa049fbb5662c96d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f29515f6cc284f27aa049fbb5662c96d\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was listening intently during the committee of the whole House stage of this bill, and I will say this: it was the best of times listening to the Minister; it was the worst of times listening to the Opposition. I have to throw my Dickens in there, given the theme of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EBut Mr Goldsmith is correct that it was a really collegial select committee that we had when we considered this bill. We received excellent advice and actually had a very thorough, robust conversation. So I must admit I was surprised by the Opposition\u2019s position on this bill as the only party who are opposing this bill. I\u2019m surprised and perplexed for a number of reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ESo we were told, on the one hand, that this is a bill that\u2019s about tinkering, and then, on the other hand, we were told that, actually, removing the interest payments on legal aid loans was a very, very big thing\u2014a very big scary thing\u2014that shouldn\u2019t be done. So the question is which is it\u2014is it tinkering or is it a big thing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ll tell you, I worked at YouthLaw Aotearoa for nearly a decade, and there\u2019s something about watching the point of decision\u2014after you\u2019ve advised someone about the strength of their legal case and that they can access a legal-aid loan\u2014watching their face as they go through that decisionmaking process, and seeing the people who are low income and who have very sound legal cases, who look at me and say that they aren\u2019t going to access legal aid because they simply cannot perceive taking on that loan. Unless you\u2019ve been in that position or advised someone who is, you do not know the scale of the people who are not accessing justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ENow, Mr Goldsmith has repeatedly made the argument that if there\u2019s no interest, people will not pay the loan back. But the advice we received was that the Legal Services Commissioner has the power to issue deduction notices directly to employers or to bank accounts. So that option is there; it was given to us in advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe Opposition have argued, \u201CWell, why aren\u2019t you doing other things like improving the court processes?\u201D We are. Mr Goldsmith knows that. He was in the room this morning as we discussed Te Au Reka with the Ministry of Justice , which is their digital case management system. He\u2019s been there as we\u2019ve made changes to the coronial system. He\u2019s been there as we\u2019ve made changes to the Family Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EMr Simon O\u2019Connor, in the second reading, argued that we should be putting our justice money in other pockets. He\u2019s been there in the room as we talked about the circuit-breaker programme. He\u2019s been there in this House as we\u2019ve talked about expanding that programme; putting 1,800 police on the ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re about saying yes to all means of access to justice, and saying yes to all ways of addressing community safety in our community. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022358d57135dda4324a6d931aaeee3d3d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022358d57135dda4324a6d931aaeee3d3d5\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Continuing the Dickens theme, these are Hard Times for our justice system. Of course, that\u2019s not to be confused with the quote that the member Vanushi Walters has made from A Tale of Two Cities\u2014the name of a novel in itself. But \u201Chard times\u201D is a very fair description of the legal system and the appalling state of lack of access to justice in this country at the moment. The system was in need of reform for many years, admittedly, including across successive Governments. It has steadily deteriorated over the last six years. COVID didn\u2019t help, admittedly, but the lack of imagination, energy, and impetus to do much about that is frankly appalling, and that responsibility lies with every branch of Government. I know that\u2019s not a thing one should lightly say, but the fact of the matter is the matter has been allowed to slide in a in a fashion that is, frankly, hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs far as this bill goes and what it does and doesn\u2019t do, I pick up on the theme, initially, of the comments made by my colleague and friend the Hon Paul Goldsmith. He notes that there\u2019s not much in the bill. Of course, you know, that can be deceptive\u2014I suppose you could have a good idea or a major policy change reflected in relatively few words. In this case, basically every second word is either \u201Crepeal\u201D or \u201Cdelete\u201D. Again, that shouldn\u2019t necessarily mean that we don\u2019t find favour with it. Repealing and deleting is a legislative activity I would very much like the opportunity to do quite a lot of, 51 days from now. But I think it does show lack of imagination, because nothing constructive is being done by this bill. It is merely, at best, lessening pain only to a minor extent. It is a band-aid on the weeping, seeping wound of our lack of access to justice in this country, for all the reasons that we have already described.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the cost barriers, the greatest cost barrier is the extraordinary amount of time, and therefore expense, that is involved in taking legal claims at any level whatsoever of our justice system, courts and tribunals alike. That would be the single best thing that could be done to achieve more cost-effective justice, as well as more effective justice and justice that is less delayed and therefore less denied than we currently have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the previous contributor to the debate Vanushi Walters that the Government has been undertaking various measures in the space to improve matters. That\u2019s true, as far as it goes, and I think it\u2019s worth acknowledging the point that she\u2019s made. But also it\u2019s fair to acknowledge National has supported in good faith all of those measures. Associates have been appointed, there\u2019s lots of talk about various reforms\u2014not much more than talk in the case of a couple of the programmes, which is disappointing. But, to a large extent, that blame lies with not only the current Government but this branch of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo not much has been effective. There\u2019s been not much more than tinkering. Members opposite may disagree with that characterisation, but the results speak for themselves, and the results are of a justice system where the time frames and the backlogs are out of control. It is deeply dispiriting, deeply disheartening, and merely waving relatively small amounts of money here and there simply will not cut it. There\u2019s no good reason that we should pretend that it is anything more than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also worth noting that to some extent this is unnecessary because there is already a mechanism available, under which the applicant\u2014that is someone who\u2019s applying for legal aid\u2014can have considered grounds of financial hardship, which, of course, is a directly relevant one when we\u2019re talking about the costs involved, or for any other reasons that they believe should be considered. These are under the headings of \u201Cjust and equitable\u201D reasons. So the mechanism exists already, but, nevertheless, the Government sees fit to apply a blanket provision whereby we are to understand that society as a whole is to pay all the contribution; the person involved, himself or herself, none of the contribution. That seems wrong to me. If there is no skin in the game\u2014not even a nominal amount of interest, not even a nominal co-payment\u2014then there is no reason for people to accept responsibility for the situation in which they find themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, for all these reasons, we don\u2019t think that it is worth supporting this bill. There are many more things that would have been much more helpful. Again, at this, the final reading of the bill, we do not support it, and we will not support it. But we will, if given the chance in a very short space of time, make real, tangible, effective measures to actually improve access to justice in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9fb270706244886963ec53b2dc01522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9fb270706244886963ec53b2dc01522\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E A lot of years ago, I started in a firm called Ellis Gould. It was a high-priced firm and it had a beautiful view from my office of the city. I gave up that job to go to something which was the Union Law Centre in \u014Ct\u0101huhu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhen I got there, I was working out of the tea room. My first client came in and she had what was called, at the time, a non-molestation order that she needed\u2014it\u2019s now called a domestic violence order. I listened to her and I understood that she didn\u2019t have the money to pay for the order, and I was concerned about that. I remember my boss saying, \u201CDon\u2019t worry about it, we just do those ones.\u201D That\u2019s what lots of the legal community do. Now, that woman had had a machete held over her head by her partner. She had four children and it was a pretty serious situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the situation I\u2019d like to contrast with some of the statements that have been made on the other side about how people have to have a bit of skin in the game if they are to deal with situations of their own making. That was a situation where we needed to be kind. We needed to understand what $50 is. We needed to understand what we needed to do in the circumstances. Our family lawyers and our employment lawyers know that, and they do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis law is going to help people. It isn\u2019t a little law; it\u2019s a really important law. I\u2019ll never forget that story. It haunted me through my entire practice and it kept me honest. Thank you, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00221a4a8e436722497281d5f8e809276af4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a4a8e436722497281d5f8e809276af4\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to take a short call on the Legal Services Amendment Bill before us here, under urgency. It seems like an uncomplicated bill. We\u2019ve got two parts to it: a $50 user charge, which has been identified as a barrier to accessing justice for those people on low incomes, and it really doesn\u2019t seem to serve much of a purpose. The other part is removing the 5 percent interest on legal aid after six months. ACT says if the $50 charge is a deterrent for people struggling, let\u2019s remove it and remove that excuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EWe already have an issue with people paying fines, and it\u2019s good to at least go into the court process with a clean slate. Unlike most of Labour\u2019s policies, this bill actually targets the right people. With the GST on fruit and veggies, the winter energy payment, prescription charges\u2014all policies that help the rich people or the evil millionaires more than they do the poor people. So it\u2019s good to see a focus. This will actually help those people who are struggling in the world today, which is often the world which has been created, again, by this Government, and it may reduce the stress in their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe policeman in me thinks that it would be better if the person wasn\u2019t in court at all and didn\u2019t require any legal services. Again, an ACT-influenced Government will help them on this path, so there is hope. The bill will, hopefully, make it easier to access democracy\u2014and that\u2019s a word that we\u2019re fast losing the meaning of in New Zealand. And because of this, ACT supports the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00227073e785c41f41d6af3d27546ac23ea7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227073e785c41f41d6af3d27546ac23ea7\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. The Green Party supports this bill. They are good changes that are cleanly aligned with Green policies and statements. We would go further with much more substantive changes to the framework for legal aid. While these are small, the changes are clearly positive steps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party opposed National\u2019s legal aid changes in 2011. We lobbied against further changes in 2012. Green MPs called for an inquiry into the equality of access to justice in 2015. There should be no financial barriers to accessing justice and representation in the court and the provisions around interest on unpaid legal aid debt as well as the upfront fee are a barrier to access for justice. And it\u2019s just a very clear case of an ideological approach of \u201Cuser pays\u201D that doesn\u2019t recognise that all people are entitled as members of our society to have access to justice. We\u2019re all better off if we make that as easy and accessible as possible. So we congratulate the Labour Government for getting this to this point, even if it isn\u2019t as far as the Green Party would like to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022c95fb4d5947d41899e5528524bcae9d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c95fb4d5947d41899e5528524bcae9d7\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the Legal Services Amendment Bill. This is a good bill, and it was a pleasure to sit with the Justice Committee in consideration of it and to consider the detail about how this will improve access to justice. Access to justice is something that everyone in this House should support, and this bill clearly does that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis bill does two simple things, and I thank the ACT member who spoke about the removal of user charges being a good thing. It\u2019s a real no-brainer; $50 is the difference between somebody being able to access the services of a legal aid lawyer or to make choices about, say, school camp coming up or groceries on the table. To remove that fee makes a real difference in the lives of exactly the kind of people who need legal aid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second thing it does is it removes interest, and that means that the bills of people who access legal aid services don\u2019t continuously go up as they are trying to pay them off. It can be incredibly demoralising for people, especially those people who have outstanding debt to other Government departments. So it really makes sense to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAny party who is opposing access to justice in this way has got the wrong idea. Fees and barriers to accessing legal services and the knowledge to navigate the legal system create the kind of inequality which is inexcusable in New Zealand society. It\u2019s a trap of poverty that this bill does something to prise the jaws open from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThose kind of barriers generate arbitrary and unsustainable inequalities that radically undermine the meritocratic values this this democracy was founded on. It keeps people at the bottom at the bottom, while the continuous accumulation of capital lets people at the top keep going up and up. The existential growth of inequality in our society is something we should all push against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe thing which brings us closer together, whether it\u2019s in wealth or in our standing in our communities, is the diffusion of that knowledge. It\u2019s the fact that you can go into a courtroom and have somebody who knows what\u2019s going on explaining it to you. It\u2019s those policies like education that transform people\u2019s lives, and this is one of those. I\u2019m proud to stand up for this bill, and I\u2019m proud to stand with a Government that\u2019s advancing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7f953b6fd494581893c6c61f595423e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7f953b6fd494581893c6c61f595423e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A five-minute split call\u2014Barbara Kuriger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022543cb81cb6a04aadab27e070a02e5ed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022543cb81cb6a04aadab27e070a02e5ed9\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. National is opposing this bill. We agree that New Zealanders struggle to access justice, especially under the current Government. The best thing that this Government or our new Government could do to improve New Zealanders\u2019 access to justice would be to speed up the very slow court processes so that those involved in proceedings don\u2019t have their lives kept on hold for years and years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ERather than reducing the incentive for those with debts to repay by removing interest, we believe any additional spending in the system would be best speeding up the process of justice, firstly, and, secondly, to improve legal aid available to make it more attractive for lawyers. Currently, legislation allows for applications pertaining to the exemption of legal aid debt under the grounds of financial hardship or any other reason that the applicant believes should be considered. These are labelled as just and equitable reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo, in my very short speech today, I just wanted to reiterate that there are much better ways of giving access to justice and tidying up the legal system, and to reiterate that National will be opposing this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u00226f2efa63d8e64cd3a7dc26232aa1c441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f2efa63d8e64cd3a7dc26232aa1c441\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure to rise in this House and take a quick call on the Legal Services Amendment Bill. This bill, it\u2019s all about access to justice, and my learned colleague Helen White painted the picture relatively well, I thought. People don\u2019t access justice when things are going well; they usually access justice when there are a lot of other challenges going on in their lives. So it\u2019s important to recognise that and make sure that the system recognises that\u2014that when people are in vulnerable positions, that $50 fee can act as a huge barrier to getting that justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EAnd then also, in the House, we\u2019ve talked about the 5 percent interest that accrues on that fee as well, and then when that\u2019s lined up with other outstanding fees that the individual may owe to other Government departments, that can quickly become quite overwhelming. So this is a really good bill, and these proposed changes will mean that thousands of people who would otherwise not be able to afford a lawyer will be able to have proper legal representation. Looking through the commentary on the bill, we had 10 submitters. Four were from individuals and six were from organisations, and all 10 of those submitters supported the bill and didn\u2019t recommend any amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003ESo, just in closing, another point to note is that, you know, investment in Budget 2022, actually\u2014it\u2019s helped around 93,000 people be eligible for legal aid since January 2023. So we\u2019re fulfilling our election promise to make improvements to our court system so that everybody has appropriate access to justice so that we can improve equitable outcomes for all. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7b4148859ad42fab36497f60b9fa369\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7b4148859ad42fab36497f60b9fa369\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m really pleased to be able to speak on this bill, the Legal Services Amendment Bill, and to take a call. I want to thank the Justice Committee members and also the officials who prepared the briefings and, specifically, the submitters who were able to put forward their contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill for those who cannot access the legal services or access justice, in terms of equality and equity. The bill refers to two minor technical amendments that will help those thousands of households on low incomes to access justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn my local community, we have the M\u0101ngere Community Law Centre. I want to acknowledge the team who work really hard, because they deal with very diverse community members who would not necessarily put themselves forward to access the legal services that are required to understand\u2014because many of the people in the South Auckland community, or the local communities, come from different, diverse backgrounds. When they have problem, because they don\u2019t necessarily understand the complexities of law in English terms, it is very helpful for them to access justice and access the community law centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe bill is helpful. It is very helpful, because, for those households\u2014thousands of households\u2014across the motu who cannot afford the fee, it is helpful to repeal those sections and interests. Although it seems like quite a small amount, it will be very helpful for those particular households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIt is important to be educated on the laws of the land, to understand your rights as a person in the community and that, whatever has happened, when you require legal help, there are the services out there in the community that will be able to assist you because they have the knowledge, the expertise, and the legal backgrounds. I do want to thank those who prepared this bill\u2014and I would commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022369bacf123784992b3567fbe249a4def\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022369bacf123784992b3567fbe249a4def\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to make a small contribution on the Legal Services Amendment Bill, one that the National Party is opposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWe do agree that New Zealanders struggle to access justice\u2014something that has become certainly harder and longer in the last five years. Our view is that the Government would be best focused on improving New Zealand\u2019s access to justice by speeding up what is a very slow court process. It\u2019s something I have certainly seen in my previous career\u2014even before the delays of the last few years, when it could take someone two to three years to progress their way through the court system. This bill does remove some costs. But, I mean, ultimately, people can still access the legal aid system; they can still get help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWe think it\u2019s important that legal aid is accessible for all. But this bill simply takes away the $50 contribution that people have to make and takes away the interest that they\u2019ll have to pay on any outstanding money. Of course, anything that someone has to pay less of is helpful\u2014particularly those who are in a difficult position. But frankly, this country is in a difficult position. Core Crown debt has doubled since 2019, we have the biggest gross national debt we\u2019ve ever had\u2014just over $800\u00A0billion\u2014and our balance of trade deficit is the biggest in the OECD, meaning that we are spending significantly more than we\u2019re earning as a nation. So we don\u2019t have a whole lot of money to spend on a whole lot of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI think it would actually be a lot more valuable to people who are trying to access justice to get faster progress through the court system, which fundamentally actually will cost them less in legal fees, and therefore there will be less interest they\u2019ll need to pay on any debt that incurs if we\u2019re able to speed up the court process. So we think the money is better spent on getting a more efficient, faster court process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI think a $50 contribution would actually be a significant\u2014I think many people would be very happy to pay that to have a much faster court process, which actually gives them certainty as to the outcome of that court process, whatever it may be. Because uncertainty is, actually, a huge cost to people emotionally, physically, and financially. A $50 contribution to the cost of the court and some interest being paid\u2014so actually, if we can put that towards speeding up the court system, that would add the most value to people\u2019s lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s an old saying that, \u201CJustice delayed is justice denied.\u201D That\u2019s certainly a real truism. Fundamentally, that money, we think, would be best spent towards actually making sure justice is not delayed more than it needs to be and assisting with that. So with that, I will conclude my contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022 data-id=\u002240ad560892a140cfac7d9bdb0e3a312d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240ad560892a140cfac7d9bdb0e3a312d\u0022\u003ESORAYA PEKE-MASON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the third reading of the Legal Services Amendment Bill. I\u2019m so grateful for this amendment, having myself supported wh\u0101nau to navigate the justice system, and seeing the despair on their faces and not knowing what to do and wanting to know how to access legal representation. The justice system is a stressful place to be in if you\u2019ve never been there before; absolutely, the experience is much more overwhelming than it already is. I recall turning up to court and it\u2019s a sterile, cold place. You\u2019ve got to stand there and look for the name of what courtroom you\u2019re in, and so on and so forth. That is bad enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EThe bill does speak to two significant things, such as the removal of the $50 user charge. It might be a pittance to some, but, as I\u2019ve said before in this House, it is gold to others. Secondly, it gets rid of that 5 percent interest charged on unpaid legal debt. I\u2019m delighted the user charge and interest payments will already be in effect\u2014in place\u2014before this bill passes, by changing the regulations and removing reference to the charges and the interest payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003ELegal aid is central to ensuring equity in New Zealand\u2019s justice system. By doing this, the legal aid scheme can keep doing what it was designed to do in the first place. This means that more people can, of course, access legal advice, ensuring the ongoing viability of the legal aid system. And I just want to note that the bill responds to the Ministry of Justice findings in the 2018 review of legal aid. The changes are part of our Budget, the 2022 package of $149.7 million to strengthen the legal aid system. I welcome this and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002296cdea4fa7664cc290f067b82cb826a3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 84\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; ACT New Zealand 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te\u00A0Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 29\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 29. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000814\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e30dd272d64e4477b63c7be80b2a68e1\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf235206f8334341ba0947395aba94a6\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000817\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 2 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022102eec88de2b4e9f8185454dad25daee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022102eec88de2b4e9f8185454dad25daee\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to stand and take a call on the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill. This bill particularly concerns the issues of fleeing drivers and the safety concerns that result from people misusing a vehicle and refusing to stop for police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThere have been a number of these cases throughout New Zealand where we do have drivers who flee from police and, unfortunately, there are times when that leads to devastating crashes and devastating injuries and deaths from both, those who are in the vehicles that are fleeing but also other vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI do want to just put on record, and I have spoken about this case in a previous call on this bill. In 2018, we lost a woman in Nelson who was driving to work, early on a weekend morning, and was traveling down a rural road, and there was a fleeing driver who was fleeing from police at the time and crashed into the vehicle and, devastatingly, she lost her life, leaving her teenage children without a mother. The ripples of that were felt throughout the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI think we all in this House acknowledge that the issue of fleeing drivers is one that there\u2019s no excuse and no reasonable excuse at all for people who behave in that way, and the impacts felt on the people who are the victims of such terrible offences are devastating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of the matters relating to fleeing drivers I just want to note, is about the role of the police in making that risk assessment on the day on their ability to\u2014of whether it is safe or not to pursue a fleeing driver. It is a really challenging psychological issue, where there are, unfortunately, times when, by being chased, it can lead to you a young person, particularly, speeding up even more and actually make the situation worse. One of the things we have to take care real care about in this House is ensuring that police can make the right operational decisions based on a proper risk assessment of the risk of pursuing a fleeing driver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI know that has been a matter of some debate at times in this House and in the public, but, ultimately, we do need to rely on the expertise of the police to make those decisions, rather than politicians making those decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut we are also very clear that such an offence is an offence. It\u2019s a terrible offence. A vehicle is a very dangerous item for someone to use in such a way. It can do significant damage, just like any other weapon\u2014and a vehicle can essentially become a weapon in these matters. So it\u2019s important from the Government\u2019s point of view that we are taking steps to really crack down on fleeing drivers, in terms of the offences that are there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee has examined this bill and recommends that it be passed. It seeks to reduce unsafe behaviour on New Zealand roads by increasing the severity of enforcements for fleeing drivers. What it would do is amend the Land Transport Act to lengthen the period for which an enforcement officer may seize and impound a vehicle from the current 28 days to six months if a driver has failed to stop or remain stopped when required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIt also introduces a new offence if a person fails to provide information about a fleeing driver. So if someone has information and refuses to provide that information to the police, there\u2019s a new power there for a vehicle to be seized and impounded for 28 days. It also increases the licence disqualification period after a second conviction for a failing-to-stop offence from one year to one to two years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIt is important that we send a very clear message as a House to people who wish to use vehicle in this way\u2014that they can cause significant and severe damage to people contained in those vehicles and also any other vehicles or members of the public that they may, unfortunately, come in contact with if they are fleeing and fleeing at a very, very high speed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI think, unfortunately, something that we probably all share in this House is a connection to people who have lost their lives on the roads. I have a cousin who lost his life on a road. I know far too many New Zealanders who\u2019ve lost their lives on New Zealand roads. It\u2019s important that this House continues to take our responsibility seriously to limit the potential for people\u2019s lives to be lost on our roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is an excellent bill. I do commend the Minister, I commend the Justice Committee for their work on it, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229e38677a470249df9ec04a30a3cee7d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e38677a470249df9ec04a30a3cee7d4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A five-minute split call\u2014Chris Penk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00226a35df80d23f4738a16456c37221daac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a35df80d23f4738a16456c37221daac\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I pick up where the previous member Rachel Boyack has left off by thanking the Justice Committee for their work. We are close enough to the end of this parliamentary term that I\u2019d like to make that a slightly more general remark in the sense that the Justice Committee has worked hard on a number of different bills\u2014obviously all in the justice space one way or another, but it\u2019s a very broad remit and I acknowledge the current chair of the Justice Committee, Vanushi Walters. Before her I think it was Ginny Andersen\u2014now the Hon Ginny Andersen. I think that\u2019s the extent of the chairs involved over this term of the Parliament. But on the occasions when I\u2019ve been fortunate enough to participate, it seemed to me a good body of MPs who have been prepared to examine issues such as this in good faith and acknowledging the seriousness of the issues involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe consideration and indeed deliberation of this matter at select committee was not something that I took much active part in sir, but I have followed the debate, as I know you have and are still doing now, despite my best attempts. And, clearly, much thought is given to some of the competing considerations that are inherent whenever we\u2019re talking about increasing the severity and speed of the administration of justice. So it\u2019s right to take these issues very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIf we think about the speed of enforcement, this is important for a number of different reasons. One is that it will promote confidence in the justice system if we have the consequences, roughly speaking, of offending being administered quickly, and we need to do that in a way that is most efficient while at the same time not reducing fundamental rights of persons who are charged and are entitled always to be presumed innocent unless and until such time as they\u2019re proven guilty of a crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the way that this balance has been struck within the bill, as referred to in the select committee report, is by enabling the serving of notices by electronic means. In 2023, it seems appropriate to allow the methods of delivery\u2014albeit of bad news in the sense that it might be some sort of traffic infringement. But, of course, there\u2019s much worse news that one can receive in relation to road safety, and Rachel Boyack has referred to those tragically in relation to loss within her own family and those whom she knows. I think she\u2019s right. There will be many of us who are aware of such issues from a deeply personal place, and that\u2019s tragic and it\u2019s to be avoided, if at all we can. So for all the New Zealanders, and visitors to New Zealand, for that matter, who are involved in road safety incidents, whether at fault in the legal sense or merely involved by an accident of circumstance\u2014of course, for all of these people we must take very seriously road safety measures such as are put forward in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s not to say that we agree with every detail in here, and others have spoken about the point to point safety camera regime, but when it comes to things like the automated issuing of certain infringement notices, again, a pretty important, albeit technocratic step to enable justice to be served more quickly, we do support that, because we support the administration of justice being taken seriously in this crucial area of public life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe see that, among other things, there is the ability for an enforcement officer to impound a vehicle for 28 days. That would be if a person fails to provide certain information when requested. And while on the face of it, one might say it\u2019s pretty heavy-handed, because it involves a confiscation of property in the absence of a criminal conviction, nevertheless, we think that if a person fails to provide certain information when requested, it\u2019s reasonable to use a tool that\u2019s available to us at our disposal in the toolbox, so to speak, by motivating them to be involved in the process whereby guilt or otherwise can be determined. That\u2019s another example of measures that are within the bill that we think will make things easier for the police and other authorities to do their job, because, as we can all agree, I\u2019m sure, this is an important issue and we want to equip those who perform these duties to the best of their ability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo with that, so I\u2019ll conclude my relatively short contribution, except only to thank the House again, the Justice Committee again, and say that we do join others in commending the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c15996e0d5d94ec5ae83f94e73fa7bd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c15996e0d5d94ec5ae83f94e73fa7bd3\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a surprise but also a pleasure to be standing and speaking on this bill, the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill. I have not sat on the Justice Committee. Nevertheless, I understand, as the member Chris Penk, who has just resumed his seat, has said, that the Justice Committee have taken through this House the most bills in this term. So I want to acknowledge Vanushi Walters, the chair, and a very apt and able chair she is too; also the former chair Ginny Andersen for her work. I think it also has to be said, absolutely, because it\u2019s not just the chairs or the select committee but the officials that have worked, and I imagine they have worked tirelessly on this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThis bill is at the second reading. I understand there were 33 interested groups or individuals and eight oral submitters that came before the select committee, and the bill simply seeks to reduce unsafe behaviour on New Zealand roads by increasing the speed and severity of enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ETwo matters that I think are particularly useful were discussed. One is vehicle impoundment for failing to provide information. One of the things that hasn\u2019t been said is some of the grounds that don\u2019t necessarily mean that the impoundment sticks or stays, and that is there are some compassionate grounds that mean that the vehicle can be returned. Creditors can also ask to have the car or vehicle released, and the police have a discretion to use that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EAlso, in terms of vehicle forfeiture, there is a really clear process as well for ensuring that the financial sale of the property is also now going to be kept by the Crown. I think that that is a very severe message that we send to people who are committing this crime. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00221a85ae3f3af7423391bff3cef19ca9a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a85ae3f3af7423391bff3cef19ca9a4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a brief call in support of the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill. In doing so, I want to acknowledge the work of the Justice Committee. Mr Penk acknowledged that it\u2019s a hard-working committee under the chair Vanushi Walters, and what they have done is they\u2019ve worked through this after listening to submissions and have come back with some rather sensible and practical solutions to make the bill more workable. One is really around the practical aspect of what defines a registered person\u2014making sure that there\u2019s a broader scope around that\u2014and also allowing the electronic means to be incorporated in terms of not just filing of information, which seems to be fairly common these days, but also in terms of following through on the service of notices when it comes to particular breaches or infringements that might follow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing I note also is that it lengthens the period from 28 days, which seems to be the common theme in a number of calendar events when it comes to criminal proceedings, to that of six months as a period, by which the enforcement officer may take action to impound a motor vehicle. That gives the enforcement agency\u2014more likely than not to be the New Zealand Police, of course\u2014more time to work through processes, to establish identity, and to take appropriate action. The limitation of the 28 days as a time frame is just an indication where it has proved a little bit difficult. So I again congratulate and acknowledge the work of the Justice Committee. I thank the Minister for bringing this to the House and commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223e26b2469885440fa61f021000b3a902\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e26b2469885440fa61f021000b3a902\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, this bill is a result of an announcement that the Government made back on 16 May this year to control a problem that actually has literally run away on the Government, and that is around fleeing drivers and introducing some new powers for police when it comes to those fleeing drivers. So police will now be able to seize and impound vehicles for up to six months if it\u2019s failed to stop. It will also apply if the registered owner of the vehicle fails to provide information of the fleeing driver and impounding is deemed necessary for public safety. Vehicles may also be forfeited upon conviction for a failing-to-stop offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe background to the reasoning for this\u2014and National is supporting it, but we feel like it\u2019s come at a very late stage when something could have been done a lot earlier, because data released last year showed that the number of fleeing drivers between December 2020 and December 2021 was 4,846; the same number showed the number of fleeing drivers between November 2021 and November 2022 was 9,499. So it practically doubled. It just goes to show that if there\u2019s inaction with law and order, problems can really start to accelerate\u2014and that\u2019s not meant to be a pun but it certainly has been an accelerating problem. In the same time, the number of unidentified fleeing drivers increased from 2,419 to 6,412; while the number of police proceedings jumped from 3,374 to 3,484\u2014so a very, very small number of police proceedings in relation to what was happening out there on our road and putting the number of people out there in danger. So, for six years now, all offenders needed to do was put their foot down and nobody would chase. The results have been predictable: an increase of 96 percent more fleeing drivers from that December 2020 period that I quoted before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo Labour\u2019s lack of action on crime, combined with this bill that won\u2019t have a massive overall effect on the wider crime picture, shows that the Government is waving the white flag and giving up on law and order. The Government is now belatedly waking up to the fact that authorities need stronger powers and that offenders should face some real consequences. This bill will help but the real challenge is to change the culture of excuses. The only target that this Government has focused on in the justice sector, until now, is a 30 percent reduction in prison numbers. So this is far too little, far too late. Many people have lost their lives in the interim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E National is supporting this bill today. We just would, again, reiterate the fact that it\u2019s been a very long time\u2014far too long\u2014finding its way into the House to give the police some powers to act on at least one crime that is desperately out of control. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u002205ee3c21f01744f1a5f1a5c3f4b28a70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205ee3c21f01744f1a5f1a5c3f4b28a70\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Again, I join the rest of the House in thanking the submitters in getting us to this point and the Minister for bringing this bill, the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThis is really important. I think back to the region that I come from and I remember, just before Christmas in 2017, there was a fleeing driver that hit a police officer that was actually just trying to put out some road spikes to try and stop the fleeing driver in the first place. That police constable was actually hit and hurt and had to be flown to Waikato Hospital because he was just trying to do what the right thing was, what the public expected him to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EEarlier this year, back in January, an innocent woman suffered life-threatening injuries when a fleeing 37-year-old driver crashed into her home as she was eating dinner in Gisborne. Again, off to Waikato Hospital for some surgery to her serious injuries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWe need to crack down on fleeing drivers. Fleeing drivers need to know that it\u2019s not OK. Fleeing drivers need to know that there are serious implications when they run and they hit innocent people, whether it\u2019s police officers in the line of duty or innocent New Zealanders sitting in their kitchen eating their dinner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not acceptable. This bill will create the ability for police to be able to impound cars for longer, to be able to utilise the mechanism of disqualification of licences. They are being given a set of tools to be able to turn around this awful, awful statistic. The previous member talked about how this is on the rise. It\u2019s unacceptable; no matter which side of the House that you sit on in this place, we all understand the value of being able to give the police the tools to be able to deal with fleeing drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThis bill is good for the people that have been affected by fleeing drivers, whether it\u2019s the police officer in Awakeri that day in 2017 or the lovely lady in Gisborne who was sitting down to eat her dinner and the car came crashing through her house. I commend this bill, on their behalf, to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223fffc7ba37c547319aad5c217548fc9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fffc7ba37c547319aad5c217548fc9c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Justice Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e485ca202af445f99d0840e41c2db91c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 91\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 29.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f4387f3513bd4d27bb219db04e00728a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 91\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 29.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000855\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002204b2f8ffb28b4a17bf1051f33752cc65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204b2f8ffb28b4a17bf1051f33752cc65\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa01aef4d4154b249a5dd535517fb0a7\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4380aaa975d41c7a43a07a543516914\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4380aaa975d41c7a43a07a543516914\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill. We come to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd9054431861480b99e017449a45cd6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd9054431861480b99e017449a45cd6f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a713328322ef402c9fa910de791308af\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, Schedule 1, and clauses 1 to 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022454b51537e244a30b3fab4bd69badf02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. The question is that Parts 1 to 3, Schedule 1, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002231218c0cf819413d84f6177bcf91c327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231218c0cf819413d84f6177bcf91c327\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E This legislation does a number of things that we agree with, which is getting more teeth to help the police with fleeing drivers. The current situation where you just know with absolute certainty if you put your foot down and speed off, you won\u2019t be chased and won\u2019t be caught\u2014well, you\u2019ve got, I think, about a 15 percent chance of getting caught\u2014is not tenable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s one thing that we don\u2019t particularly agree with, and I want to ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, around this, which is in relation to the point-to-point speed cameras and the new regime that they\u2019ve brought in new section 141A, in clause 27. This is in the context of a Government that is determined to slow us down at every turn with putting these 30kilometreanhour speed limits everywhere. If you look in my neighbourhood in Auckland, where the rubber really hits the road, you think about one of these speed cameras going a kilometre down a road where you\u2019re obliged to drive at 30 kilometres an hour in modern vehicles that have never been safer. They have got all sorts of things going on, and we have to crawl along at 30 kilometres an hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI notice that the equation that\u2019s put together here is \u201C(d \u00D7 3.6) \u00F7 t\u201D\u2014with \u201Cd\u201D being the distance and \u201Ct\u201D being the time\u2014in order to work out whether or not you\u2019ve infringed. But I just have this oldfashioned view\u2014and I wonder whether the Minister in the chair shares that\u2014that one of the purposes of being in Parliament and being in Government is to make peoples\u2019 lives easier, and it seems to me that the purpose that the Government is pursuing with this is to drive people crazy. It is to force them to drive along at 30 kilometres an hour in modern cars at a snail\u2019s pace, with a pointtopoint camera determining that you do the whole kilometre or whatever it is down the road at no more than 30 kilometres an hour. Now, you could go at 50 and stop and have a break and then start again, but I don\u2019t see any public benefit in that process occurring. So why is it that the Government is so determined that we have to do it this way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESecondly, given natural concerns that people have around safety on the road, why isn\u2019t the Government focused on all the other more important matters? So we asked the officials, in terms of fatalities and serious accidents, what percentage were caused by excessive speed, and it\u2019s not half, it\u2019s not a third, and it\u2019s not 20 percent. I think it was around 10 percent, and yet the Government over the last six years has done half the number of drink-driving tests that it should have. So they don\u2019t focus on the real dangers around drink-driving. They\u2019ve fluffed around and haven\u2019t got around to dealing with an effective drug-driving test, and so that is another major area. They haven\u2019t particularly focused on driver distraction and cellphone use and so forth. They certainly haven\u2019t focused on making sure that people wear seatbelts, which is one of the most important things. So when it comes to safety, all those things that they should be focused on, they\u2019re not really, and haven\u2019t been focused on enough. But the one thing that they do put all their energy and all their efforts in towards is to make us crawl around at 30 kilometres an hour in our modern cities in our safe, new vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo I want to ask the Minister why on earth he thinks this is a good policy and what on earth he is trying to achieve by it, and if they\u2019re focused on road safety, why don\u2019t they focus on the things that really matter? Secondly, I\u2019m asking whether he\u2019s sure that the equation he\u2019s got there of \u201C(d\u00A0\u00D7\u00A03.6)\u00A0\u00F7\u00A0t\u201D is correct, and I\u2019d like him to give us a couple of examples\u2014that would be great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to have a better understanding about what evidence there is to show that this particular speed camera on a 30-kilometre-an-hour road is going to make our lives better, make our lives easier, and generally help people get around and get on with the things that they need to do. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00220b99824346224140be5ee844ff4c7f78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b99824346224140be5ee844ff4c7f78\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Look, thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll do my best. I\u2019ve come into the role relatively recently, but I\u2019ll do my best to answer the questions here. I just want to acknowledge the Justice Committee, which has done a very good job to work through this piece of legislation and make some improvements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ERegarding the point-to-point speed cameras, they are used internationally, and for the most part they\u2019re on open road. While I haven\u2019t had a chance to talk to officials in depth about this, I doubt whether there will be many in 30-kilometre-an-hour areas. The member asked the question: do we have a role to make it easier? Yes, in part, but when it comes to road rules, actually safer is the focus of what we\u2019re trying to do here. If it was a 30-kilometre-an-hour sign, it would most likely be highly populated or there would be roadworks. The chances of those being over 2 kilometres, maybe they would be, but I doubt whether we would have point-to-point cameras in such a situation. For the most part, they will be on open roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have asked officials to ensure that where they are put up, there must be signs\u2014that\u2019s what the legislation says\u2014that it will be in an area and over a distance where you can accurately assess what might be speeding or so. So they are one of many tools in the tool box to make our roads safer. We have too many people who are run over, particularly around roadworks\u2014hit in roadworks or hit in pedestrian areas. So look, we\u2019re trying to do our best here. I think the member\u2019s questions about 30kilometre-an-hour zones and fixed speed cameras or point-to-point is not really relevant in this because for the most part they\u2019ll be on open roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002276b6bdf3fb11455e9fa49af0c0aa8e33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276b6bdf3fb11455e9fa49af0c0aa8e33\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I have some exciting remarks to make on the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill and as usual it\u2019s traditional to acknowledge the large crowd that gathers for such occasions. But if you will indulge me actually on that note, Madam Chair, I do want to acknowledge those valedictorians who are about to give their final remarks, and they will no doubt have some actually exciting remarks to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve enjoyed working with Jan Logie on many occasions in relation to her role as musterer and mine as whip; Eugenie Sage\u2014the Hon Eugenie Sage, no less\u2014particularly on the Regulations Review Committee in which she was a very astute member; and the Hon Poto Williams, who I remember came up to Warkworth within my electorate in her role as police Minister and gave a very good account of the Government\u2019s gratitude to those fine members of our community who do so much for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn relation to the bill itself, I just wonder if the Minister can turn his mind to new section 102A, in clause 17A. This is about the \u201CAppeal to Police against impoundment of vehicle\u201D under a particular section, and I think it\u2019s appropriate that the bill allows an appeal mechanism. We\u2019ve got quite a strict power whereby a vehicle can be impounded quite rapidly and we\u2019ve talked before about how that\u2019s a protective measure in order to get engagement in the process from someone who\u2019s likely behaved badly, albeit that they haven\u2019t necessarily received a criminal conviction. And so there\u2019s an appeal right and that seems appropriate, but I wonder if the Minister can offer any thoughts on how that relates to a person\u2019s ability at the same time to complain to the Independent Police Conduct Authority and/or make an application to the courts. I don\u2019t think the bill is trying to stop those things happening as well but they\u2019re sort of parallel processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E I appreciate that the Minister\u2019s relatively new in maybe turning his mind to the bill, so, respectfully, I\u2019d suggest that if he were able to gain some advice on that that might be helpful, just to ensure that once this bill is passed, as it soon will be, it can be interpreted and applied in a way that reflects the intention of the Government and indeed the Parliament as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00221033edae84d4413697756be9468bb2f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221033edae84d4413697756be9468bb2f7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his question and, look, nothing in the bill here prevents the right of appeal through any part of the process. And I\u2019d just like to acknowledge that he too, along with his colleagues, is supporting what we\u2019re trying to do with this piece of legislation here. As I say, it is very unfortunate when some people will choose to run from the police\u2014create very dangerous situations\u2014and so what we\u2019re trying to do here is provide some penalties and some clear messages that if they do that, then they will lose their vehicle. And that sometimes is the most important asset that they have. So we\u2019re making progress here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229b5ed8ed05dd42d08b8a053b7f5bd359\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b5ed8ed05dd42d08b8a053b7f5bd359\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the Government has indicated that they wish to conclude urgency. Therefore, I will report progress on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc333adb83c244d0b8f20aa6b75a0207\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc333adb83c244d0b8f20aa6b75a0207\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00221eda674aa7684fbf9b671fee9e6d82a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eda674aa7684fbf9b671fee9e6d82a9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, following the valedictory statements, the House will adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 29 August. I call on Jan Logie to make her valedictory statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d3b9d358aaf425d81b00c7deb2ee1fb\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c18094d4bc1b4b5e886b7faa97a74aa7\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u002265bde3986e1b4c5ca09baf65a0f0586b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265bde3986e1b4c5ca09baf65a0f0586b\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. As I rise for perhaps the last time in this House, in the wake of Aupito\u2019s inspiring valedictory, I\u2019ve decided to come as my proudest lesbian self in my boiler suit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EFirst up, I want to acknowledge all the support and the resilience of my family: my mum, Judith; my dad, Ray; my brother, Ian; and my friends, despite the fact that I\u2019ve been a bloody terrible friend and family member for the last decade. I specifically want to acknowledge my mate Liz, who I share a mortgage and side-by-side homes with in the fabulous Cannons Creek, who has kept things running when I\u2019ve been absent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIn my time in Parliament, I\u2019ve been lucky to fall in love with Kath and become a member of the council of mothers, with Kath, Justine, and Danielle caring for the two fabulous young w\u0101hine Pipi and Vita. Yes, I see you. It\u2019s been so beautiful to be welcomed into such a generous extended family as a well-intended though often absent member. Love you lots.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EKath, I need to particularly thank for putting up with some of the worst dates ever, including protests, election panels, vigils for murdered women and children; for forcing her introvert self out door-knocking; for staying up with me until 3 in the morning, swotting up on progressive political messaging ahead of caucus meetings; and for being there when I was struggling to breathe in the wake of Metiria\u2019s resignation, feeling as if the bastards had won and needing to be on TV in less than an hour. So many acts of kindness; thank you\u2014but I still won\u2019t be proposing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve spent much of my life disengaged from parliamentary politics because the politicians I saw in the news seemed more interested in one-upping each other than genuinely working for our communities. I used to say I decided to stand for Parliament to stop yelling at the politicians on the radio, and now I\u2019m leaving because I want to stop yelling at myself on the radio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been a real privilege getting to fight for people in this place. But my theory of change is about the movement, not the individual, and part of the job that no one really gets to see is that absolute joy of connecting with those on the ground doing amazing mahi, people reflecting on how we could do better, and organising to make it happen. In my experience, none of the good things in this place happen without those people and groups. They are the heart of our democracy. And that\u2019s not a criticism of this place; that is something that I think reflects well on us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis speech is my love letter to my colleagues and everyone in the public sector and communities who I\u2019ve had the incredible privilege to be challenged by, learn from, and work with. Every single day, there are people all over this country and in this place bringing the beauty of environmental and social justice and democracy to life through their work and their advocacy, and, tonight, I want to celebrate them, including all the incredible Green members, and staff here and in the party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESpecifically, I want to call out to the teams in my office: Marie Retimanu, Jessie Dennis, Raewyn Tate, Sarah Saunders, and my ministerial office from last term, Claire Lyons, Heather McDonald, Stephanie Rodgers, Sarah McGray, and Mel King\u2014I really am indebted to their singular and collective brilliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the unions\u2014particularly E t\u016B\u2014the Coalition for Equal Value Equal Pay, Graduate Women, YWCA, Mind the Gap, National Council of Women, and my \u201Cshe-roes\u201D Kristine Bartlett and friends for all of their work to ensure every worker is paid according to the value of their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EOur economy has too long relied on exploiting traditional women\u2019s work. It\u2019s been a long battle, and we\u2019re not there yet\u2014come on, pay transparency and the care and support workers settlement\u2014but over 175,000 women have got massive pay rises in the last six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge Auckland Action Against Poverty, the Child Poverty Action Group, New Zealand Council of Christian Social Services, Wesley Community Action, the City Mission, the Salvation Army, beneficiary rights\u2019 groups from Southland to Northland, We Are Beneficiaries, Metiria Turei, and many others. Government has the power to eliminate poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere is frustration at the painfully low implementation of what was recommended by the Welfare Expert Advisory Group (WEAG). WEAG create a pathway that represented the interests of business, working people, the sick and disabled, and our wh\u0101nau and communities. The potential for wellbeing from this consensus has been squandered by a Government that limited itself by refusing to take on the inequities of our tax system. Just tax the rich, already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThat said, I will be very excited, though, to see fair pay agreements roll out, and I feel lucky to have worked with unions and the Government over the last six years to help get us to this point. I really hope that people who care about reducing inequality vote to ensure these agreements come to fruition. Our communities need this foundation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EFired Up Stilettos and our Uber drivers are more examples of ordinary people supported by union colleagues putting themselves on the line for work rights for themselves and others. This is work towards human dignity. We should celebrate them, and we should make their lives a little easier by increasing the labour inspectorate and creating stronger protections for all workers, not just employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe need far more fundamental reform of ACC to ensure it can deliver on Owen Woodhouse\u2019s intent\u2014this has been said in this House. A shout-out to ACC Futures Coalition and others. There is so much potential, here, to strengthen our social safety net. Maternal birth injuries was a start, but we need to eliminate discrimination on the grounds of accident, illness, or birth, as intended. That work is to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI may have said before in this House\u2014and I am serious about it\u2014that family violence and sexual violence are endemic and a shame on this country. Sadly, there\u2019s no one solution to changing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI need to acknowledge the Hon Andrew Little and Jacinda Ardern for letting me roam well beyond a tight interpretation of my delegations last term, to unleash some of the wisdom from our communities, and I am so grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThanks to the efforts of Te Ohaakii a Hine\u2014National Network Ending Sexual Violence Together, Ng\u0101 Kaitiaki Mauri, all our Women\u2019s Refuges, Te Kupenga, Korowai T\u016Bmanako, and Ange Jury, Kim McGregor, Louise Nicholas, Heather Henare, David White, Ken Clearwater, HELP Auckland and HELP Wellington, all the Rape Crisis centres, START, Shakti, Sharma, E T\u016B Wh\u0101nau, Pasefika Proud, Le Va, Te P\u016Btahitanga, M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League, Prue Kapua, T\u0101 Mark Solomon, Te Whakaruruhau, Te Hiku, Aviva, Shine, T\u016B Wahine Trust, Tu Tama w\u0101hine, Kite Rapu i Te Ora Trust, VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai, Mojo Mathers, Debbie Hagar, Laurie Mackness, Sue Hobbs, Thursdays in Black, Community Law, Elisabeth McDonald, Yvette Tinsley, Julie Tolmie, Jan Jordan, the Family Violence Clearinghouse, and so many more people who hold the wisdom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EFor all their efforts, we managed to get a dedicated Minister\u2014go, the Hon Marama Davidson\u2014family violence legislative reforms, sexual violence legislation, and a plan to address the issues identified in the 2009 Task Force for Action on Sexual Violence. We got around half a billion dollars towards community-based services including tailored services, we set up infrastructure to break down Government silos and create processes of genuine accountability, and we started the long journey of the Crown taking responsibility for the harm it has caused and ensuring people get the right help when they need it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EInterim Te R\u014Dp\u016B\u2014sorry, you never got a decent name\u2014did the foundational work that led to Te Aorerekura, a national strategy to end violence over generations. I do believe having a plan that was driven by M\u0101ori leadership, not our Public Service\u2014and no shade meant\u2014has given us something far more inclusive, far more real, and less risk averse. I get so frustrated\u2014and that\u2019s polite\u2014when I hear suggestions that enabling M\u0101ori leadership is divisive. The experience of communities I speak to and listen to is the polar opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI was attending a community election panel organised by Te Pae Ora a few weeks ago, and I was so encouraged that so many of the questions from the floor to all the parties were seeking to get a commitment to Te Aorerekura. We need community to hold everyone in here to account to ensure the work is sustained and driven, regardless of shifts in political or news cycles. I trust them to do this. The staff of the joint venture, now Te Puna Aonui, had and have a really tricky job leading change right across the public sector and I am incredibly grateful to them. It has not been easy. There is so much more to do. But the community, with Marama Davidson, have this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EOne of those things, though, that we need to do, is we need to do much better by our children who have experienced violence or neglect, and I want to pay tribute to all the survivors who have shared this story with the royal commission and to VOYCE\u00A0-\u00A0Whakarongo Mai, and children\u2019s rights advocates Hands Off Our Tamariki, and our Children\u2019s Commissioners. Children who have experienced trauma need love and care and to know what loving relationships look like. The royal commission has already highlighted the intergenerational impact of abuse in State care and how that drove gang culture. When we punish these young people for the survival skills that they\u2019ve learnt because of our failures and past violence, we condemn ourselves to repeat history and we make a continuation to continue violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI want to thank Women\u2019s Refuge, Shine, M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League, Zonta, the National Council of Women, the Human Rights Commission, and unions\u2014especially the PSA\u2014for everything they did to help pass legislation putting workplace protections in place for victims of domestic violence. This was a world first that the other jurisdictions around the world are now following. Being a world first has been almost as amazing as hearing the difference from survivors that this has made to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI also want to give a shout-out to the Abortion Law Reform Association of New Zealand, Dame Margaret Sparrow, the Family Planning Association, and quite a few good women journalists who pushed for abortion law reform alongside many others. I was so proud that the Greens were the first party to put our commitment to reform into policy. It was a highlight, for me, to work with women across this House to progress the reform of our abortion legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIn my maiden speech, I also spoke about the beauty of diversity. I want to thank Allyson Hamblett, Jack Byrne, Louisa Wall, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere, Mani Mitchell, Kevin Haunui, as well as Gender Minorities Aotearoa, InsideOUT, RainbowYOUTH, Intersex Awareness New Zealand for all their often unpaid work to ensure a voice rights and protection for takat\u0101pui, intersex, non-binary, LGBTQIA\u002B peoples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI was honoured as a cis feminist lesbian to accept petitions to this Parliament to enable self-identification of gender on birth certificates and gender affirming healthcare. We quickly got a political consensus on the right to self-ID when it was first considered by this Parliament, and our longstanding women\u2019s organisations have been strong allies on this, because they recognise that trans women are women and that we will never be free until we are all free. The last decade has been a renaissance for the women\u2019s movement. Just look at the public joy of celebrating the Football Ferns and Black Ferns and the power of the Me Too movement. Strong movements bring people together; they don\u2019t drive people apart. And that\u2019s why it\u2019s been so disappointing to also see the rise in transphobia in our communities and politics, activated from offshore. When Carterton elected Georgina Beyer as mayor, they didn\u2019t see her as a threat to women; they saw her as the eloquent, bolshie woman who would fight for them\u2014and she did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Inclusive Greens, Disabled Persons Assembly, People First, CCS Disability Action, Paula Tesoriero, the Disabled People\u2019s Organisations, Deaf Action Aotearoa, Arts Access Aotearoa, Access Matters, Huhana Hickey, and all the brilliant disabled activists and allies who I\u2019ve had the privilege of learning from. We have a very long way to go as a country to remove all the barriers to disabled people being able to fully access their human rights. I\u2019m so pleased that the staunch advocacy of disabled people has led to the delay\u2014and hopefully review\u2014of the poorly named and even more poorly drafted Accessibility for New Zealanders Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EChange is possible. Still, I\u2019ve found it hard to hang on to the progress we\u2019ve made, because I\u2019m so aware of the remaining gap between what we\u2019ve achieved and what we still need to do to truly uphold the mana and potential of people and planet. We\u2019re watching countries burn right now. We\u2019re seeing beaches covered with dead fish because the oceans have become too warm for them to survive. Too many of our communities are experiencing climate change viscerally, and the stress and fear is real.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also facing a biodiversity crisis that might spell ruin even before complete climate breakdown\u2014I know, I\u2019m a downer! Those who know are questioning why our political leaders aren\u2019t responding to the same information that they\u2019re seeing with urgency. And I know that the Hon James Shaw struggles with this frustration as he continues to turn up every day to fight for what is required. But when we see the most marginalised people being used as scapegoats to feed political ambitions\u2014people still struggling to pay the bills and care for their kids; when children are still being raped and sexually abused and we don\u2019t trust the system enough to protect them, let alone help the person who hurt them to change\u2014it\u2019s easy to feel hopeless. Somehow, we need to find a way to hold the possibility of transformation at the scale our circumstances demand. Now, more than ever, we need hope. We need hope in the possibility of collective action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019m 100 percent confident that the Greens hold the things I really care about and I can walk away with just gratitude and huge respect to them, and a sense of knowing that they will continue\u2014but they cannot do it alone. In my 12 years, I\u2019ve seen significant change that has happened because people have come together to create that change. The challenges in front of us now are bigger than they have ever been, and only if we come together can we meet those challenges and create a future where our children can thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe time is now, and we do not have time to wait. We need to stop thinking that politicians are going to fix this without stepping up to help them; no one in this place succeeds alone. Our power is only derived from our communities, and the most meaningful thing we can do is to honour that gift and give the power back. Every decision to join a group, create a petition, join a march to vote\u2014join the Greens\u2014turn up for a better future to stand for hope; to stand together for urgent climate and environmental action in a society where everyone can live in dignity under the shelter\u2014and the power of Te Tiriti will help create that future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI began my maiden speech saying I look forward to our ongoing journey, and that is how I will conclude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EKa whawhai tonu m\u0101tou, \u0101ke, \u0101ke, \u0101ke. [We will continue to fight, for ever and ever.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWaiata\u20149 to 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00229b9bb7a0467344759a8e6a046f361b19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b9bb7a0467344759a8e6a046f361b19\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Mai i ng\u0101 maunga ki ng\u0101 ng\u0101here, mai i ng\u0101 awa ki te moana, e rere aku mihi ki a koutou katoa. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. E rere hoki aku mihi ng\u0101 whenua huri noa i te motu, me koutou an\u014D hoki o t\u0113nei w\u0101hi, Taranaki Wh\u0101nui, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. R\u0101tou kua whet\u016Brangihia kia r\u0101tou, t\u0101tou ng\u0101 kanohi ora ki a t\u0101tou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E[From the mountains to the forests, from the rivers to the ocean, I acknowledge you all. Greetings to you all. I acknowledge all the tribes across this land, as well as those of this area, Taranaki Wh\u0101nui, I greet you all. Those you have passed on, and those of us present, I greet you.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I never intended to be an MP, especially after working in the Government research unit and then as a ministerial press secretary in the late 1980s and seeing the hours MPs worked. But Nick Smith and Rodney Hide changed that when, in March 2010, they axed elected regional councillors on Environment Canterbury, me included, to install commissioners more sympathetic to irrigation development. I was angry that a Government could so easily cancel an election, overturn local democracy, and pass legislation under urgency with no public submissions. Anger became action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThank you, Grace Taylor for the mentoring and encouragement to stand, and the Aoraki Greens, especially Prue, Kay, Roelien, Rosemary, Tim, Nikki, Jacinta, Dot, Jan, Bruce, and so many others for all your support and campaign mahi over the last 12 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn 2011, with Russel Norman and Metiria Turei as co-leaders and an energetic party organisation, the Greens got 11.1 percent of the party vote\u2014still our highest-ever under MMP, and I hope exceeded this October. That saw me, Jan Logie, Julie Anne Genter, and 11 other MPs elected, with 14 MPs returned again in 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the things I am most grateful for in the Green Party is our strong kaupapa. MPs move on, but we keep pushing on our priority issues until we get change, even if it takes years. The \u201Cdirty rivers, clean water\u201D campaign which Russel, Catherine Delahunty, and I all worked on at different times during six long years in Opposition is just one example. Alongside NGOs and local communities, we highlighted the damage to rivers and streams from agricultural intensification, we helped stop the Ruataniwha dam, and built the public mandate to end Government subsidies for irrigation in 2017 and for David Parker to implement stronger national direction on freshwater. Stronger regulation is now making a difference, but cow numbers and nitrate pollution of waterways and methane emissions remain too high. I look forward to Steve Abel and Lan Pham being elected and continuing to push on issues such as tighter drinking water standards for nitrate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ELast month, Federated Farmers CEO Terry Copeland said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CWe have seen peak cow in this country. With hindsight should we have done so much dairying in Canterbury? Probably no.\u201D Scientists such as Dr Mike Joy and Dr Russell Death, former Canterbury medical officer of health Dr Alistair Humphrey, environmental NGOs, Fish and Game, and the Green Party have all been saying that for 15 years. Government and MPs need to listen more intently and act more quickly on public concerns and be less persuaded by vested interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThank you, Russel Norman, for your strategic smarts and leadership as a political campaigner. The Keep Our Assets campaign to oppose the partial privatisation of our energy companies built a mass movement. It changed public opinion about State asset sales. A National Government ignored the successful referendum results but no further assets were privatised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI acknowledge Metiria Turei, whose championing of justice for people and planet has not been properly recognised here. Metiria\u2019s honesty in a speech at the 2017 Green AGM and her critique of the social welfare system, and need for reform so everyone has what they need, resonated with the public. The bump in Green support in the polls helped propel Jacinda Ardern to Labour leadership and victory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe 2017 election and its aftermath was a time of heartbreak and excitement: heartbreak at the forced resignation of Metiria and the loss of caucus colleagues Mojo Mathers, Denise Roche, and Barry Coates, and excitement that the Greens were in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI got a dream job as Minister of Conservation, Minister for Land Information, and Associate Minister for the Environment with responsibility for waste. Thanks to an energetic, cohesive, and professional ministerial office team of advisers and private secretaries who worked closely with agencies, we got heaps done over the next three years. In conservation, this included the largest addition to an existing national park\u2014thank you Sandra Cook, Ngati Waewae, and Ng\u0101i Tahu; a revised Threat Management Plan to better protect M\u0101ui and Hector\u2019s dolphins; changes to the Conservation Act to benefit our threatened native fish; and a new Aotearoa New Zealand Biodiversity Strategy, Te Mana o Te Taiao.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn Budget 2018, we got the biggest funding increase for conservation in 16 years, and then in 2020, $488 million of the $1.2 billion Jobs for Nature package. Thank you to Grant Robertson for recognising the importance of natural capital in your Wellbeing Budget framework and to James Shaw for helping get it and a new revenue tool\u2014the International Visitor Conservation and Tourism Levy across the line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe increased Budget funding enabled Te Papa Atawhai to undertake its biggest-ever predator control programme, and Predator Free New Zealand Ltd to support iwi and hap\u016B, councils and community organisations establish more landscape scale projects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIf anyone wants advice on effective lobbying, I suggest they talk to Te Wh\u0101nau-\u0101-Apanui and Ng\u0101ti Porou. With the help of a helicopter, they dropped me deep in the forests of the Rauk\u016Bmara Range to see how large numbers of deer had not only eaten out the forest understorey, but also stripped the trees of bark. I was close to tears seeing the collapsing forest; there had been no pest control for decades. But that resulted in Rauk\u016Bmara Pae Maunga. It\u2019s a tremendous Treaty partnership between Te Wh\u0101nau-\u0101-Apanui, Ng\u0101ti Porou, and Te Papa Atawhai with significant funding to help control pests, goats, and deer over 150,000 hectares. We really do need to get on top of rising deer numbers throughout our forests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBanning single-use plastic bags was not a priority for Ministry for the Environment (MFE) officials in 2017, and one guffawed when I first suggested it. We made it happen partly because of the deluge of letters on the issue from school students, especially to the Prime Minister. It was an honour to be a Minister under the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern, with her formidable intellect and support for action on waste. To any tamariki listening: your letters matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI am proud of the work that I, and the ministerial office team, did with a small group of MFE officials to kick-start a major work programme on waste. It included properly regulating outdoor tyre storage to prevent tyre fires, starting work to standardise kerbside recycling, phase out single-use plastics such as tableware, and establish mandatory product stewardship schemes for refrigerants, tyres, and electronic waste. All of that work has continued and increased under the current Government\u2014except the development of a beverage container return scheme; that should restart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe expanded and increased our only environmental tax\u2014the landfill levy. It\u2019s expected to generate around $260 million to help fund central and local government minimise waste with community organisations. Imagine what a wealth tax could do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAs Minister for Land Information, it was satisfying to work with top-notch policy folk at Land Information New Zealand to develop and introduce the Crown Pastoral Lands Reform Bill. It stopped tenure review and required a stronger sustainability focus in the management of 1.2 million hectares of South Island high country. High country leaseholders opposed the bill, but the sky hasn\u2019t fallen since it was finally passed under Damien O\u2019Connor last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIncreasingly, the public understands the scale of the twin crises of climate and nature. A powerful remedy to existential despair is connecting with others to promote change. That creates hope and, eventually, political action. I am so grateful for the advocacy and activism of citizens and community organisations who have a vision for a better future, informed by science, matauranga, lived experience, and practical doing. People who call decision makers to account and make life uncomfortable for Ministers and departments, who connect and strengthen our communities are treasures in our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EChairing the Environment Committee this term has been a privilege because of engaged colleagues, talented select committee staff, and the range of business the committee has dealt with\u2014some it, like the Natural and Built Environment Bill, formidable in size\u2014but nothing deters the Office of the Clerk and staff supporting select committees. They and the Parliamentary Library, the Parliamentary Counsel Office, and legislative counsel facilitate a huge volume of quality work within often tight deadlines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EMinisters and MPs may be the face of politics\u2014thank you, news media\u2014but our democracy exists because of the work of so many people in this building and beyond. Thank you for your dedication and expertise. But select committees need more staff and resources to counterbalance executive power, especially with complicated and technical bills. Having a separate financial appropriation for Parliament approved by the Speaker, rather than by Treasury and the Minister of Finance, would strengthen Parliament independence and could help here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ETo all the Parliamentary Services staff and contractors\u2014cleaners, buildings, security, ICT, finance, travel, and Copperfields\u2014thank you for making this place function and for your humanity. Thank you to Green Party members, national office staff, and parliamentary and ministerial staff past and present. They see MPs at their best and worst. As a colleague said, \u201CMPs get on this train called politics while staff provide the tracks to keep us going in the right direction beyond whatever today\u2019s limited focus is.\u201D They go above and beyond, repeatedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThank you to caucus colleagues for your glorious individuality and all of the laughter. James Shaw, thank you for giving it your all to push the law and policy changes and investment we need to avert climate catastrophe. Your single-minded focus has seen more achieved in the last 5\u00BD years than the previous 30. Marama Davidson: w\u0101hine toa extraordinaire. I acknowledge and honour the strength and purpose of your leadership, your dignity, integrity, warmth, love of and connection with people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhen I directed the Department of Conservation to implement a much-neglected statutory plan to control and reduce Himalayan tahr numbers so that alpine plants stood half a chance, there was an outburst of misogyny and online hate. Marama, Golriz, Nanaia Mahuta, and Jacinda Ardern, and others have faced down much worse for much longer. They are strength and courage personified. We must all call out inflammatory statements and personalised attacks which feed the trolls and, instead, promote debate about ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI leave here with some frustration about what has not been done. On land, we have long recognised the benefits of protecting land and waters, plants and wildlife, for their intrinsic value, human health, culture, and wellbeing; 30 percent of Aotearoa enjoys some protection from extractive uses as conservation land and waters. Why is it so hard to do the same in the sea? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ELess than 0.5 percent of our oceans are protected. There are no protected areas in our entire exclusive economic zone, despite it being the fourth-largest in the world. All of it is open to fishing despite our responsibilities under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. Protection around Rangit\u0101hua, the Kermadecs, is no further ahead than when I mentioned it in my maiden speech, despite the best efforts of David Parker and mana whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt was challenging to get change on anything involving fisheries and oceans last term, even when this was a ministerial priority. Seabirds are amongst the most threatened groups of birds globally, and fisheries bycatch is one of the greatest threats to many species. It\u2019s unacceptable that commercial fishing kills an estimated 13,000 seabirds each year, and yet there was so much resistance to a zero bycatch goal in the reviewed National Plan of Action for Seabirds. All we could get was \u201CNew Zealanders work towards zero fishing-related seabird mortalities by 2050\u201D. That\u2019s not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ENo new marine protected areas have been established in six years, and despite pushing for a network on the south-east Otago coast, they have yet to happen\u2014four years after ministerial decisions and 10 years after the South-East Marine Protection Forum was established. Work was under way on reform of the Marine Reserves Act, but progress since is not obvious. It would be wonderful to debate legislation to establish new marine protected areas in the Hauraki Gulf before the House rises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere are many extremely dedicated people in the Public Service, but across Government agencies we need to recognise the urgency of action for nature and climate and act as if our lives depend upon it, because they do. The oceans have buffered us from the worst effects of climate change. They can protect us if we stop harming them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EMany in the agricultural sector know that land use and on-farm management practices need to change. Good farmers are retiring steep hill-slopes, planting stream banks, trying more diverse pasture species, and reducing stock numbers, yet too many in the commercial fishing industry continue to deny there is a problem in fisheries management and with methods such as bottom trawling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s next? I don\u2019t know yet, but there\u2019s no shortage of issues where people and nature need a helping hand, and this unfit body could do with some exercise. I have too often been an absent friend and family member because work has taken priority. I look forward to reconnecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EMy parents, Tony and Meryl Sage, were in the gallery for my swearing in, but are now with the stars. Their unending love and support, and a rough and tumble childhood with three brothers\u2014John, Phillip, and the late Stephen\u2014have helped me survive here. With most of my immediate family living overseas, thank you Mike, Chris, Diana, and the wider Suggate wh\u0101nau for always being so welcoming. Kia kaha Jesse and Claire\u2014thinking of you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBiggest thanks go to my life partner and anchor, Richard Suggate, who has encouraged, listened, loved, done way more than his share of household chores, and kept me going when it\u2019s all turned to custard. Thank you for so much practical aroha, including for Mother last term\u2014love you lots.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been a privilege to be a paddler on the Green Party waka in the parliamentary fleet. It\u2019s been hard work but hugely rewarding. I\u2019m delighted to pass the paddle on to others and wish everyone well. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Noho ora mai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E[Applause, hongi, and harir\u016B]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014Purea Nei\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2b58eb334ea4906ac307e95141df967\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2b58eb334ea4906ac307e95141df967\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. Am I correct and we\u2019re swapping out audiences? We are. So can ask members\u2019 folks that are in the gallery above me to make room for the friends and family of the Hon Poto Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00222b6903c8050040b3babcfde4b57cad6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b6903c8050040b3babcfde4b57cad6d\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana tatou katoatoa. Kia orana tatou katoatoa na roto i te aroa ma\u0027ata o te Atua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Speaker. I have written various iterations of this speech, starting a cathartic process and realising that over those weeks, what I wanted to do is leave this place paying respect for my time, acknowledging those who have helped, and giving thanks and love. So that is what I am going to do, also quoting former Deputy Speaker, the late Hon Chester Borrows, who said\u2014he admonished me with this line\u2014\u201CThe k\u016Bmara does not speak of its own sweetness.\u201D So in his honour, I shall add a healthy dose of self-deprecation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EI was a community worker before coming to Parliament, saying once that my lived experience and my extensive work history in family violence meant I could survive anything. Then I joined the caucus of the Labour Party under the leadership of David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EMy first words uttered in this House were, \u201CThank you, Mr Speecher.\u201D Like this time, it caused Grant Robertson to guffaw out loud, me to blush to my hairline and take a deep breath, and calmly continue. The ability to \u201CKeep Calm and Carry On\u201D is my superpower and the trait that members who know me, know me for that. It has stood me in good stead as Assistant Speaker and been a valuable tool as Minister, but mostly it is a reminder not to take oneself too seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EI came to this House with two clear agendas. The first, to be a good local electorate MP: to advocate strongly for my community, impacted by the most significant natural disaster of that time. We worked so hard, while the ground continued to shake, to get fair rebuild and repair strategies or adequate payouts so that my community could get on with their lives. I hope, for my community, that I have filled that brief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EWhen I look back, I see the tears that flowed in my office from the 2,628 households\u2014let me repeat that, the 2,628 households\u2014that came to me for help with their Earthquake Commission, insurance, and earthquake issues, and the tears that flowed when, months or even years later, they were back in the homes that they cherished and the community that they loved and those issues were finally behind them. We all thought, \u201CIf only I can get my house repaired, I will be fine.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003ENobody knew that more than the tremendous team of dedicated staff in my office in Christchurch. These women held what seemed like therapy sessions: consoling, cajoling, and encouraging; photocopying; filing for Official Information Act requests; taking photos; speaking, in a vocabulary that seems foreign today, of sub-floor, pack and jack, and levelling strategies; making tea; holding hands; and getting into battle against the big guys with the big money, and getting results. Hours, weeks, months of tireless work so that our people got what was right, with their homes repaired and rebuilt, as stated in their insurance contracts. When the unfairness of Government policy or status quo got in the way, they fought tooth and nail to get this changed. It is truly humbling work, to be trusted with the most difficult issues that your community faces, but rewarding when we make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EWhen the opportunity to propose shovel-ready projects came about, like a good advocate for my community, I literally stalked the Minister of Finance, chased him down hallways, and stood guard at the entrance to the Chamber to secure the $7 million for the New Brighton collective of nine community projects that would not be there in New Brighton today without the Provincial Growth Fund. Whilst we technically didn\u2019t qualify, I added a dose of Aupito\u2019s cunning to my plan to secure the funds, and learnt a valuable lesson in shameless hustling for my community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EWhich brings me to the second part of my agenda. Each year, on the anniversary of becoming an MP, I review my maiden speech and I reconfirm my commitment to James Whakaruru: to end family harm and bring voice to the experiences of children living and experiencing the trauma of family violence in their homes. As Associate Minister for social development and then Minister of Police, I had direct influence on the development of Te Aorerekura.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EOthers have felt the need to judge me, and I came under the most blistering scrutiny on social media but also mainstream media. One particularly cruel incident was Jenna Lynch\u2019s Newshub poll on whether I was the worst police Minister. If only the press gallery were subject to the same scrutiny as Ministers, such as proactive diary release and disclosure of conflicts of interest. The irony is not lost on me that in my life as an advocate for those bullied, harassed, and abused, I should be the subject of bullying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EBut I know what I have achieved and what I am proud of: the largest increase to the police budget ever; significant investment in the enhanced safety programmes for front-line police so that we keep our police safe, and, as a mother, I know that Di Hunt, mother of Matt Hunt, would have wished for this to be in place to prevent what happened to her and the families of police killed in the service of our country; Te Pae Oranga and working alongside its patron, K\u012Bngi T\u016Bheitia; working with the Minister for Pike River re-entry to secure further boreholes to provide the evidence to, hopefully, secure a prosecution; working with the families of the victims of the mosque attack and putting in place the recommendations of the royal inquiry; the first ever Minister of Whaikaha - Ministry of Disabled People, and the first ministry of its kind; working to continue the arms register, and, despite misinformation from the ACT Party, this register will significantly dampen the ability for firearms to find their way into the hands of those who would do us harm; getting kicked out of the House with the other Opposition MPs who stood up to John Key and his minimising of domestic and sexual violence; doing the haka on Willie Jackson\u2014soz not soz, bro, but sometimes you just need to be told!\u2014and, sublimely, approving the lights on Hagley Oval. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EWhilst Mark Mitchell and Stuart Nash continued to do their arm wrestle and bench press competitions, I secured the ratio of one police officer to every 480 Kiwis, a gold standard\u2014[Interruption]\u2014oh, thanks, Sally Page\u2014that means we will always have sufficient police to do their extraordinary work to keep us safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003ETo Commissioner Coster and your amazing team, Penny Nelson and the wonderful Department of Conservation team, Paula Tesoriero and the Whaikaha team, John Snead and the building and construction team, the Department of Internal Affairs and the community and voluntary sector team, Chappie Te Kani and the Oranga Tamariki team, Andrew McKenzie and the K\u0101inga Ora team, Anne Shaw and the Christchurch recovery team, Debbie Power and the Ministry of Social Development Team, and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment teams across many portfolios, especially immigration\u2014ka nui te aroha ki a koutou katoa. As I have told all of you, you are my favourite officials, but only John Snead and Amy Moorhouse know the truth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EIt has been my greatest honour to serve in Jacinda Ardern\u2019s executive and Cabinet. It\u2019s been a true privilege, and I want to thank Jacinda for her belief in me, her kindness to me and my family when I went through some of the toughest times in my political life. You gave me the strength to face the day, every day, because what we were doing was right. My words are humble but they are true: Jacinda, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EIn my time as Assistant Speaker, which I really enjoyed\u2014from the front of the Chamber you can see a lot of things playing out, such as when the National Party are running the numbers for their coups. I have always loved the processes of the House and the privilege that comes with this role, but mostly the ability to sit people down and to shut them up and to deliver the death stare. I would\u2019ve liked the ability to use the occasional cattle prod, especially on David Seymour\u2014just jokes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EBut I also recall the power of the Treaty bills, the passion of the debate, the gallery filled with iwi and waiata and whaik\u014Drero, the arduous urgency\u2014sorry, people\u2014and the endless extended sittings, where I once spent 15 hours in the Chamber in one day. But I also recall the important debates on legislation that made history and made it better for our most vulnerable and marginalised. The Clerks are like the secret society: the elves that work their magic overnight and, like magic, everything operates smoothly, like a well-oiled machine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThe hours are long, there\u2019s lots of wine therapy, and colleagues have become my work family because we see more of them than we do our real families. I have two work families: the amazing Canterbury caucus and the stellar Pacific caucus. Megan Woods, you are one feisty and amazing woman. Over the last 10 years, we have had the most sensitive and the most robust conversations, sometimes within the same conversation, and I thank you, Megan, wholeheartedly, for all the support, the rev ups, and the friendship. And Duncan, you are welcome to help me spill red wine on my carpet anytime. You are great colleagues, wonderful local MPs, and I promise to be helpful, in a \u201Cstay out of your hair\u201D kind of way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EMy other family, my aiga Pasifika, includes my ex - bench-mate Aupito. I think they split us up because you are a bad influence, Aupito\u2014you are so cheeky. When I first arrived here, there was Kris Faafoi and Aupito as the Pacific caucus, and I like to think I was the thorn between the roses. Aupito, you have worked hard for the Pacific people. You built Pacific capacity in the Parliament and in the party. I\u2019m so proud of what you have achieved for Pacific people and how you built our caucus strength, and the numbers and the triumph of the Dawn Raids apology. Anahila, you picked up the mantle and you made sure we engaged widely and we built our knowledge and our networks. And to the first Pasifika to be Deputy Prime Minister: Carmel, we have shared lots over the years, and I\u2019m truly humbled and honoured to call you friend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003ETo the Pasifika caucus, we have been on the eight-week challenge for three years now, and the only one to benefit is KFC. Remember the principles of Pacific world domination, as designed by my cousin, Caren Rangi\u2014the importance of having Pacific people in key decision-making positions. Also, remember to mention Pacific world domination often, especially in front of Willie Jackson, because it really makes him mad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EChippy\u2014Prime Minister\u2014thank you for your advice and your guidance over the years, and for your quiet encouragement when you would sit on my couch and play coach before question time. The best piece of advice you ever gave me was to take your chance at every opportunity to speak at committee stage. I took that and ran with it, and when I asked you about what happens if I run out of things to say, you said, \u201CJust start again from the top.\u201D You said, \u201CIt doesn\u2019t really matter, because no one is listening, anyway.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EPrime Minister, you have always been a steadying influence. You keep it real and you keep it simple for the people of Aotearoa. It\u2019s an easy option for New Zealanders come October: steady, trustworthy, competent, and hard-working; relatable to Kiwis up and down the country; and building on the amazing work we have already accomplished. I admire you greatly. I know you and the team will fight hard and win this election. Prime Minister, you are the bomb, or, in the words of my grandson Fletcher, \u201Cthe bom\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThis mahi is not for me on my own to claim, but we do not do this work by ourselves, so I need to acknowledge the tribe. My first thanks goes to Heather Mannix, Leeann Apps, Kath Hamilton, Laura Price, Cameron Taylor, Donna Burr, Emma Williams, Moana Fuli, Bronwyn Presland, Paul McMahon, Tiarne Gush, Danye Whitmore, Sera Benseman, Matt Swann, Georgina O\u2019Reilly, Paddy Greig, Sally Paige, and Ryan Jones\u2014you are my Xena warrior princes and princesses. But all of my team members, advisors, press secretaries, administrators, and department private secretaries: you make us all look good and you take a lot of flak for that. So for that reason, all of you in the gallery who have worked in my office, please stand up so we can applaud you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EMy Christchurch Labour Electorate Committee: special mentions to Tim Baker, David Close, and David Lawrence; the late John Chirnside and Marie Rean; Sarah Whitcombe Dobbs; Kevin Brett; Peter Crop; Peter Parsons; Liam Bateman; Toupili Pamatangi; Sandra Sim; Alex Hewison; Jenny Hughey; and my dear friends, Hugh and Raewyn Perry. All the volunteers over the years who knocked on doors, delivered pamphlets, and helped out during campaigns\u2014arohanui to you all. You are heartbeat Labour and strong in your convictions, and I am humbled by your efforts that have supported me over the years. Reuben Davidson, it is with confidence and relief that I pass the mantle to your very capable hands; please look after them, they are taonga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThanks to the party; the president Jill Day; and the former presidents Claire Szab\u00F3, Nigel Haworth, and especially Moira Coatsworth, who was responsible for bringing some extraordinary women into Parliament in her time. To all the VPs, the sector leads, the policy boffins, and the hard-working Labour on-the-ground volunteers: thank you, and keep it up. Let\u2019s all redouble our efforts to keep our country on this path.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThanks to my long-suffering family, starting with my sisters, Tokerau, Margaret, and Rere\u2014the backup singers and dancers on the street corner meetings in Shirley and Aranui, the chief cooks and hostesses of campaign time\u2014thank you for being there to pick up the pieces, but mostly for being ignored!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003ETo my beautiful daughter Terai, I agree with your husband: you are the mother of the family. You are the sweetest, kindest person I know, and such a good mum to Bodhi Reid Thomson and Fletcher Jeffrey Thomson, your boys. I can\u2019t wait to have more time to help out and to hang out with you. And thank you Tomo for being such an awesome son-in-law, so that I never have to worry about my family because I know you have it covered. And to my boyfriend, Stephen Hughes, your loyalty and how passionately you have stuck up for me is really humbling. It\u2019s been a rough couple of years, but you always make me feel so safe at home. Whether you like it or not, there\u2019s heaps more time for the illusive art called fishing and for dancing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EYou don\u2019t spend 10 years in an institution without gathering a few stories, like the New Zealand parliamentary netball team bumping into David Bennett at Sydney Airport carrying the gear bag for the Australian parliamentary netball team; or the night, Mr Speaker, shared with you and Winston Peters and a bottle of Johnny Walker Blue Label; or kava in Vanuatu\u2014and, yes, it is as potent as they say. Or a certain away-caucus at Brackenridge, with euchre, too much wine, the musings from a certain senior Labour Party icon, and flavoured olive oil.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EI cannot leave without heartfelt thanks to our cleaners, maintenance teams, our security team\u2014thank you for all you have done to keep us safe, for your banter and your chat, your friendly good mornings, and especially for the difficult time we had when the mad music festival called \u201Cthe convoy\u201D landed on our front lawn. Thank you to chamber staff, Serjeants-at-Arms, and messengers, and a special mention to the dancing Jenny and a previous member of the staff, who shall remain nameless, who on his last day of service may or may not have served gin to you and me, Mr Speaker, in our water glasses\u2014you may or may not recall that yourself, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003ETo you Mr Speaker, my dear friend, I am so proud to have served alongside you as a presiding officer and so proud that you are our Speaker. Your dignity, your mana, and your commitment to this institution and upholding good parliamentary practice are enhanced by who you are as a person. A special mihi to you, my friend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EAs they say, \u201CYou do the crime, you have to do the time\u201D; I must have been really, really bad. I have wrung out every ounce and sometimes found ounces I didn\u2019t know I had. This place is a privilege, but it is hard. It is a workout on your stress levels and your intellect, but service is the most important and rewarding work one can do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThis House will remember my name and my work when I have passed; the words I uttered in this House, for ever recorded in Hansard; and my photo is on a shield in the Speaker\u2019s corridor. So, to end, I quote New Zealand\u2019s most-famous poet, Sir Buck Shelford: \u201CI have left everything on the field, and, actually, I\u2019ve left some parts of myself on the field.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, it has been the privilege and honour of my life, and I leave you with nothing but love. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014Tongareva \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6.20 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202308227697baa22c4147aeaeea3c44f1effaea000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"